Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE

Posted By: Daryl

Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/09/09 12:47 AM

Here is the link to the study and discussion material for Lesson 7 of this final quarter of 2009:

http://ssnet.org/qrtrly/eng/09d/less07.html
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/11/09 02:00 PM

Joyce Griffith presents some interesting questions for reflection I would like to post here:

If you feel a church leader is on the wrong track, what should you do about it? How much praying should precede your commenting? To whom should your comments be directed? In what spirit?

In what ways does the story of Korah's rebellion remind you of the story of Lucifer's rebellion in heaven thousands of years earlier? What kind of a man do you think Korah was in terms of appearance? persuasiveness? opinion of himself? What did Korah want?

Explain how the crowd's taunts aimed at Moses and Aaron amounted to blasphemy against God. Is it possible that criticism of church leaders can be blasphemy today?

Is it true that God's promises of a life of prosperity had not been fulfilled? Do you think Korah and his followers felt justified in their claim of a broken promise?

Who made the judgment--Moses or God--against the actions of Korah and his people? Why did the Lord ask Moses and Aaron to step away from the assembly of the children of Israel? What was His plan at that point? Did Moses change God's mind?

Why do you think God chose a plague to show His lordship over the people? Why do you think it was important for Aaron to be the one who swung the censer of incense and stopped the plague before all died?

What did Aaron's staff look like the very next day when Moses entered the Tent of the Testimony? Why were the people convinced by a blooming branch that bore almonds but not by the power of God demonstrated earlier?

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/12/09 11:37 PM

Both the episode of the man who gathered sticks on the Sabbath day and the episode of Korah and his company are clear examples of willful sin.

Notice the interesting detail that they were self-deceived.

The facts relative to Korah and his company, who rebelled against Moses and Aaron, and against Jehovah, are recorded for a warning to God's people, especially those who live upon the earth near the close of time. Satan has led persons to imitate the example of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, in raising insurrection among the people of God. Those who permit themselves to rise in opposition to the plain testimony, become self-deceived. Such have really thought that those upon whom God has laid the burden of his work were exalted above the people of God, and that their counsels and reproofs were uncalled for. They have risen in opposition to the plain testimony which God would have his servants bear in rebuking the wrongs among God's people. The testimonies borne against hurtful indulgences, as tea, coffee, snuff and tobacco, have irritated a certain class, because it would destroy their idols. Many for awhile were undecided whether to make an entire sacrifice of all these hurtful things, or reject the plain testimonies borne, and yield to the clamors of appetite. They occupied an unsettled position. There was a conflict between their convictions of truth and their self-indulgences. Their state of indecision made them weak, and, with many, appetite prevailed. Their sense of sacred things was perverted by the use of these slow poisons; and they at length fully decided, let the consequence be what it might, that they would not deny self. This fearful decision at once raised a wall of separation between them and those who were cleansing themselves, as God has commanded, from all filthiness of the flesh, and of the spirit, and were perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. The straight testimonies borne were in their way, and caused them great uneasiness; and they found relief in warring against them, and striving to make themselves and others believe that they were untrue. They said that the people were all right, but it was the reproving testimonies which made the trouble. And when the rebellious unfurl their banner, all the disaffected rally around the standard, and all the spiritually defective, the lame, the halt, and the blind, unite their influence to scatter, and to sow discord. {1SP 306.2}

... It is as difficult to undeceive some of these who have permitted themselves to be led into rebellion, as it was to convince the rebellious Israelites that they were wrong, and that Moses and Aaron were right. Even after God, in a miraculous manner, caused the earth to swallow up Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, the leaders in the rebellion, the people still would have it that Moses and Aaron were wrong, and that they had killed the people of the Lord. The Hebrews were not cured of their rebellion until fourteen thousand and seven hundred of the people who had joined the rebellious had been slain. And then, after all this, God in mercy condescended to perform a remarkable miracle upon the rod of Aaron, to settle their minds forever in regard to the priesthood. {1SP 308.1}


Korah had cherished his envy and rebellion until he was self-deceived, and he really thought that the congregation was a very righteous people, and that Moses was a tyrannical ruler, continually dwelling upon the necessity of the congregation's being holy, when there was no need of it, for they were holy (4SG 31). {1BC 1115.4}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/13/09 08:17 PM

Good thoughts there, Rosangela. Thought provoking.

I've often had rebellious thoughts toward church leaders in this part of the world. I'm wondering, however, if they are appropriate.

For example, church policy prevents me from selling our Adventist books here as a colporteur, something I would very much like to do. I feel a bit rebellious and resentful about it.

For example, the church officials are trying to close an English-speaking church, and using inane ways of doing so, like trying to occupy its leader in another church with a duty that a far more qualified member in that Chinese-speaking congregation could perform, and with better equipment.

For example, one leader here has denied several people from teaching in our schools because of their Creationist views (i.e. refusal to teach evolution as fact without debate in the classroom).

For example, one leader here breaks his promises almost as fast as he makes them. This same leader at one time asked me to promise not to try to start any reformation in the place I was to be working (i.e. don't speak up for the truth or step on any toes).

Do you think I am self-deceived or rebellious for having insubordinate thoughts toward these leaders? Should I just "do as they say?"

I'm not bringing up these questions merely to spark a debate here. I believe that there is frequently too little respect toward leadership these days, and that we should seek to be more respectful of those in authority. However, these are genuine questions I have, and have wrestled with at times over the past couple of years.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/13/09 08:24 PM

It is hard to believe people, like Tom, believe such punishment and death resulted for reasons other than God executing justice and judgment. The idea that God simply permitted the earth to swallow selective sinners is far fetched. It makes more sense to me to believe God employed the forces of nature to punish and destroy selective sinners.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/14/09 02:20 AM

Those are very serious questions and concerns that may be deserving of a topic of its own in, either the SDA Church Concerns forum, or in the SDA Church Issues forum.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Good thoughts there, Rosangela. Thought provoking.

I've often had rebellious thoughts toward church leaders in this part of the world. I'm wondering, however, if they are appropriate.

For example, church policy prevents me from selling our Adventist books here as a colporteur, something I would very much like to do. I feel a bit rebellious and resentful about it.

For example, the church officials are trying to close an English-speaking church, and using inane ways of doing so, like trying to occupy its leader in another church with a duty that a far more qualified member in that Chinese-speaking congregation could perform, and with better equipment.

For example, one leader here has denied several people from teaching in our schools because of their Creationist views (i.e. refusal to teach evolution as fact without debate in the classroom).

For example, one leader here breaks his promises almost as fast as he makes them. This same leader at one time asked me to promise not to try to start any reformation in the place I was to be working (i.e. don't speak up for the truth or step on any toes).

Do you think I am self-deceived or rebellious for having insubordinate thoughts toward these leaders? Should I just "do as they say?"

I'm not bringing up these questions merely to spark a debate here. I believe that there is frequently too little respect toward leadership these days, and that we should seek to be more respectful of those in authority. However, these are genuine questions I have, and have wrestled with at times over the past couple of years.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/14/09 03:09 AM

GC, it's utterly regrettable that things like these should happen. But I believe that wrong attitudes on the part of the leadership of God's church should make us sad, not rebels.

These things have been of help to me:

1) Remembering David's attitude towards Saul, and Paul's attitude towards the high priest Ananias:

"Then Paul said to him, 'God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! For you sit to judge me according to the law, and do you command me to be struck contrary to the law?' And those who stood by said, 'Do you revile God’s high priest?' Then Paul said, 'I did not know, brethren, that he was the high priest; for it is written, "You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people"'" (Acts 23:3-5).

2) Praying for the people involved.

3) Bearing in mind that God will purify His own Church:

Many will show that they are not one with Christ, that they are not dead to the world, that they may live with Him; and frequent will be the apostasies of men who have occupied responsible positions.--RH Sept. 11, 1888. {LDE 179.1}

The great issue so near at hand [enforcement of Sunday laws] will weed out those whom God has not appointed and He will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the latter rain.--3SM 385 (1886). {LDE 179.2}

There is no need to doubt, to be fearful that the work will not succeed. God is at the head of the work, and He will set everything in order. If matters need adjusting at the head of the work God will attend to that, and work to right every wrong. Let us have faith that God is going to carry the noble ship which bears the people of God safely into port.--2SM 390 (1892). {LDE 52.1}

Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/14/09 03:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Daryl F
Those are very serious questions and concerns that may be deserving of a topic of its own in, either the SDA Church Concerns forum, or in the SDA Church Issues forum.

Daryl,

I do not wish to talk about these issues. I did not bring up these things with the purpose of finding a resolution to them here, which is why I have given but scant detail--and I wish to leave it at that. I simply use these to illustrate my mental struggle with the concept of rebellion.

"Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft."

Therefore, what should one like myself do? Is it appropriate for me to obey those in authority, even if they are misguided? Does "doing my own thing" constitute "rebellion?" Does it constitute a "power struggle" (which is the title of this thread)?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/14/09 03:27 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
GC, it's utterly regrettable that things like these should happen. But I believe that wrong attitudes on the part of the leadership of God's church should make us sad, not rebels.

But what if I am more than just "sad?" What if I feel an urge to change things? What if I feel compelled to pray God will remove certain people from their positions and replace them with better leaders?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/14/09 12:41 PM

GC, this section of the teacher's edition discusses some biblical examples. I'm running to church now, but plan to return to this subject in the afternoon.

The rebellion of Korah and his sympathizers presents a clear example of what happens when God’s appointed servants are challenged by those who merely seek power and prestige for themselves. However, at times those appointed to sacred office prove unworthy of their calling. Aaron’s older sons, Eli’s sons, Caiaphas, and Ananias are noteworthy examples from the religious community. All of the kings of Israel and many of the kings of Judah lived in rebellion against God, as well. How should a believer deal with situations in which someone in authority over them is unfaithful to God? How can the believer avoid the pitfalls of Korah yet stand up against institutional apostasy?

Consider This:
A. How did Christ instruct us to approach others when we have differences? (Mat_18:15-19)
B. How did Paul interact with the high priest, who conducted his interrogation? (Act_23:1-5)
C. What instructions did Paul give regarding civil authorities when one of the most oppressive regimes in history was in power? (Rom_13:1-7)
D. Does respect for authority mean that we are excused from any personal moral responsibility toward God? (Act_5:27-29)
E. How did Elijah deal with defective spiritual leadership? (1 Kings 18) How about Nathan? (2 Samuel 12) How about Jeremiah? (Jer_20:1-6; Jer_20:28)
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/14/09 03:21 PM

As there was obviously a leadership problem in Ellen White's time, what did she have to say about it, and what did she do about it?
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/14/09 04:29 PM


Hi Daryl, which 'obvious leadership problems' are you referencing?

And what have you read of 'it' ?
_____
Posted By: Rick H

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/14/09 04:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
GC, this section of the teacher's edition discusses some biblical examples. I'm running to church now, but plan to return to this subject in the afternoon.

The rebellion of Korah and his sympathizers presents a clear example of what happens when God’s appointed servants are challenged by those who merely seek power and prestige for themselves. However, at times those appointed to sacred office prove unworthy of their calling. Aaron’s older sons, Eli’s sons, Caiaphas, and Ananias are noteworthy examples from the religious community. All of the kings of Israel and many of the kings of Judah lived in rebellion against God, as well. How should a believer deal with situations in which someone in authority over them is unfaithful to God? How can the believer avoid the pitfalls of Korah yet stand up against institutional apostasy?

Consider This:
A. How did Christ instruct us to approach others when we have differences? (Mat_18:15-19)
B. How did Paul interact with the high priest, who conducted his interrogation? (Act_23:1-5)
C. What instructions did Paul give regarding civil authorities when one of the most oppressive regimes in history was in power? (Rom_13:1-7)
D. Does respect for authority mean that we are excused from any personal moral responsibility toward God? (Act_5:27-29)
E. How did Elijah deal with defective spiritual leadership? (1 Kings 18) How about Nathan? (2 Samuel 12) How about Jeremiah? (Jer_20:1-6; Jer_20:28)


This has happened in our church many more times than you can imagine, but God overrules these men in leadership, and they are set aside.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/14/09 06:38 PM

There is nothing wrong in trying to change a situation or praying that God changes it. What was wrong in Korah's attitude was that he didn't go to the persons involved, in the right spirit, to present his comments, but engaged instead in a work of criticizing and accusing in order to win supporters - the same Satan did in heaven.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/14/09 07:44 PM

People who crave leadership positions are gluttons for punishment. Who in their right mind wants to lead a bunch of dysfunctional church members? When I answered God's call to serve the church as a pastor, I learned in college to anticipate trying times working with disgruntled and dissatisfied parishioners. But nothing they said prepared me for reality. Wow! What a wake up call. God have mercy.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/15/09 05:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
GC, it's utterly regrettable that things like these should happen. But I believe that wrong attitudes on the part of the leadership of God's church should make us sad, not rebels.

But what if I am more than just "sad?" What if I feel an urge to change things? What if I feel compelled to pray God will remove certain people from their positions and replace them with better leaders?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Those are questions Cochoa raised earlier, I thought about today as well.
On the one hand I agree with Roseangela that our attitude is very important. We are not to move in anger and rebellion. We are to approach the person and express our concerns privately, not gossip (but Matt. 18 doesn't stop there if there is no turning away from wrong course)
We need not to follow in blind obedience when we know it is wrong and not do anything about it?

Korah and company were acting in direct opposition to the revealed will of God. They had the evidence -- the miraculous deliverance from Egypt, the pillar of light/cloud, the parting of the Red Sea, the manna, the water, the Sinai experience.

They were fighting against truth, against God's rulings, and God's purposes.

But what if a leader is opposed to what we are convicted from scripture is truth?

What happens if this is true:
Jere. 9:16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.

Serious text!

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

How did Jeremiah deal with the leaders in his day? How did Peter and John (and the rest of the apostles) relate to the leadership in the temple?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/15/09 05:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
People who crave leadership positions are gluttons for punishment. Who in their right mind wants to lead a bunch of dysfunctional church members? When I answered God's call to serve the church as a pastor, I learned in college to anticipate trying times working with disgruntled and dissatisfied parishioners. But nothing they said prepared me for reality. Wow! What a wake up call. God have mercy.


Very true, much of the problems are power struggles over minor things. Much of the criticism is gripping over personal preferences in how things should be done. A mountain of "I want it my way" which leads to a lot of unchristlike attitudes and makes a Pastor's life very unpleasant. There are churches that drive out every pastor sent to them -- sometimes destroying the Pastor's ministry.

These types of things should not be and definately show a lack of true Christian love and unity within the church.
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/15/09 03:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Daryl F
As there was obviously a leadership problem in Ellen White's time, what did she have to say about it, and what did she do about it?


Bump Daryl. Which leadership issue are you referencing?
_____
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/15/09 04:15 PM

I wasn't referring to particularly one specific issue, however, I think the issue surrounding Dr. Kellogg and Battle Creek was one instance and one good example of a "power struggle" going on.

Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
As there was obviously a leadership problem in Ellen White's time, what did she have to say about it, and what did she do about it?


Bump Daryl. Which leadership issue are you referencing?
_____
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/15/09 06:56 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
People who crave leadership positions are gluttons for punishment. Who in their right mind wants to lead a bunch of dysfunctional church members? When I answered God's call to serve the church as a pastor, I learned in college to anticipate trying times working with disgruntled and dissatisfied parishioners. But nothing they said prepared me for reality. Wow! What a wake up call. God have mercy.

Very true, much of the problems are power struggles over minor things. Much of the criticism is gripping over personal preferences in how things should be done. A mountain of "I want it my way" which leads to a lot of unchristlike attitudes and makes a Pastor's life very unpleasant. There are churches that drive out every pastor sent to them -- sometimes destroying the Pastor's ministry.

These types of things should not be and definately show a lack of true Christian love and unity within the church.

Makes a guy wonder how God can be so patient. To be like Jesus - that's what it takes to survive or thrive.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/16/09 07:41 AM

The biggest leadership issue back in the 1890's had some similarities to Korah's revolt.

Moses was God's prophet. God spoke to Moses and Moses relayed the messages to the people.

In the 1890's Ellen White was God's prophet, but during that time several prominent leading figures started to cast doubts upon her prophetic gift.

The crisis years weren't just about theology, they involved a challenge against the prophetic gift as well. In fact one of the reasons EGW was sent to Australia (where she worked for several years) was because the "brethren" wanted her gone.


Has this changed?
Or is there still open revolt against God's last day prophet?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Lesson #7 - Power STRUGGLE - 11/20/09 07:26 PM

Has Ellen White served her purpose and calling? Did she accomplish the goals of God? Seems to me she helped the church reestablish the truths necessary to be saved, to be like Jesus. All that is left is for us to believe them and to be like Jesus.
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