Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit

Posted By: asygo

Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/12/11 11:19 PM

Here is the link to the study and discussion material for Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit

Here are some study helps: Study Helps, Lesson 12
Posted By: asygo

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/13/11 12:03 AM

There is a belief, especially among conservatives, that Romans 7 describes Paul's experience of being convicted but not converted. It is said that Paul was committing outward acts of sin in Romans 7.

I disagree. Was Paul saying in Romans 7, AFTER he had seen Jesus more clearly and gained a fuller understanding of God's law, that he was then committing outward acts of sin? I don't think so.

Quote:
Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned --he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem was gone. {SC 29.3}

Note the inspired commentary on Paul's "blameless" actions when "touching the righteousness which is in the law." He was obedient "as far as outward acts were concerned," "he had abstained from sin." His actions were already good BEFORE he saw the spiritual nature of the law, when he was still a godless Pharisee.

Is it reasonable to believe that by more clearly beholding God's character - His law - Paul was led to sin in action, when he was able to abstain from such without God as a Pharisee? I do not believe that God's character has that effect on sinners.

I think the explanation in Steps to Christ is much more likely. When the self-righteous Pharisee, who had been blameless at keeping his outward acts compliant with the letter of the law, saw the depth to which God's law reached, he realized that he had not kept it as God requires. But when the law pointed out that his outward obedience did not meet God's standard, rather than falling into outward acts of sin, he saw himself as still dead in sin, his outward obedience notwithstanding. Then he was ready to accept Jesus as his only Savior, not his valiant efforts toward obedience.

In short, I do not believe that a person who can abstain from outward acts of sin while apart from God, will become less able to obey when he gets to know God better.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/13/11 07:47 PM

The kind of blameless, righteousness Paul managed to experience prior to his enlightenment and conversion is described as "filthy rags". Romans 7 goes on to describe (verses 14-25) converted Christians successfully recognizing and resisting the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh. In other words, rebirth and conversion do not silence or eliminate the temptations that originate within us. Ellen wrote:

Quote:
The Christian will feel the promptings of sin, for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit; but the Spirit striveth against the flesh, keeping up a constant warfare. Here is where Christ's help is needed. Human weakness becomes united to divine strength, and faith exclaims, “Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 15:57)! (SL 92, 93)

He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory. (AA 476)

Nevertheless, being tempted from within does not corrupt or contaminate us. Like Jesus, so long as we subdue the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh and subject it to a sanctified will and mind, we are growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/14/11 12:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The kind of blameless, righteousness Paul managed to experience prior to his enlightenment and conversion is described as "filthy rags". Romans 7 goes on to describe (verses 14-25) converted Christians successfully recognizing and resisting the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the experience described in Romans 7 is not one of committing acts of sin. Is that right?

If so, I agree.

I also agree that Paul's pre-Jesus blamelessness was filthy rags. But then, I also believe that post-Jesus righteousnesses were also filthy rags.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
In other words, rebirth and conversion do not silence or eliminate the temptations that originate within us.

I also agree here. The Spirit and the flesh are constantly at war in the Christian.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Nevertheless, being tempted from within does not corrupt or contaminate us. Like Jesus, so long as we subdue the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh and subject it to a sanctified will and mind, we are growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

I will disagree here. Inner selfishness does corrupt and contaminate, whether or not the body follows.

As for our experience being "like Jesus," it's similar but not the same. "Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery." That cannot be true of Jesus.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/14/11 07:35 PM

I'm glad we agree on Rom 7. It's refreshing. Most people disagree with us. As for our disagreement regarding Jesus and sinful flesh I suppose we should reserve that for a different thread. And, we are already discussing our differences concerning post-conversion righteousness and filthy rags. Living by the Spirit is a marvelous and wonderful experience and I thank Jesus for it everyday. The idea that our heavenly Father is repulsed by it is less than endearing.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/14/11 11:55 PM

Yes, we can continue to discuss our differences in the threads where we started.

And yes, we are in the minority regarding Romans 7. Both conservatives and liberals usually disagree with us. But I'm sure Rosangela will agree with us, increasing our club's membership by 50%. smile
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/16/11 02:06 AM

Count me in your club! laugh
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/16/11 04:54 AM

Yes, all our obedience are as filthy rags.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/16/11 07:38 PM

Daryl, wrong club.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/17/11 03:46 AM

Perhaps I should say that all our righteousness based on our faulty obedience are as filthy rags.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/17/11 03:49 AM

I would say that all our righteousness based on our BEST obedience is filthy rags. The only "clean rags" are based on Christ's obedience.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/17/11 03:52 AM

Quote:
Paul says that those who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. How do you reconcile this statement with the fact that Paul says we are saved by faith and not by works?

What's the relationship between being saved, faith, good works, and sin?
  • We are saved BY faith.
  • We are saved APART FROM good works.
  • We are saved FOR good works.
  • We are saved FROM sin.
We have to keep them all straight if we want to avoid confusion.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/17/11 03:56 AM

Something to ponder:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.


Does "you do not do the things that you wish" apply to the truly converted believer?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/17/11 08:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Daryl F
Perhaps I should say that all our righteousness based on our faulty obedience are as filthy rags.

Amen! But to say as Arnold and Rosangela do that the righteous results of abiding in Jesus are also filthy rags is the big question. I disagree. To what conclusion have your Bible studies led?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/17/11 08:18 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Something to ponder:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.


Does "you do not do the things that you wish" apply to the truly converted believer?

No, absolutely not. However, from your perspective, you must say, yes. That is, from your perspective, born-again believers are incapable of experiencing "righteousness and true holiness". You believe everything they think, say, and do, while abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature, is tainted with sin and selfishness. Or, have I misunderstood your position?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/17/11 08:42 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Quote:
Paul says that those who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. How do you reconcile this statement with the fact that Paul says we are saved by faith and not by works?

What's the relationship between being saved, faith, good works, and sin?
  • We are saved BY faith.
  • We are saved APART FROM good works.
  • We are saved FOR good works.
  • We are saved FROM sin.
We have to keep them all straight if we want to avoid confusion.

I disagree. It is impossible to separate faith and good works. They always go hand-in-hand. Ellen wrote:

Quote:
I was attending a meeting, and a large congregation were present. In my dream you were presenting the subject of faith and the imputed righteousness of Christ by faith. You repeated several times that works amounted to nothing, that there were no conditions. The matter was presented in that light that I knew minds would be confused and would not receive the correct impression in reference to faith and works, and I decided to write to you. You state this matter too strongly. There are conditions to our receiving justification and sanctification, and the righteousness of Christ. I know your meaning, but you leave a wrong impression upon many minds. While good works will not save even one soul, yet it is impossible for even one soul to be saved without good works. God saves us under a law, that we must ask if we would receive, seek if we would find, and knock if we would have the door opened unto us. {FW 111.1}

While we are to be in harmony with God's law, we are not saved by the works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience. The law is the standard by which character is measured. But we cannot possibly keep the commandments of God without the regenerating grace of Christ. Jesus alone can cleanse us from all sin. He does not save us by law, neither will He save us in disobedience to law. {FW 95.3}

He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. Man cannot be saved without obedience, but his works should not be of himself; Christ should work in him to will and to do of His good pleasure. If a man could save himself by his own works, he might have something in himself in which to rejoice. The effort that man makes in his own strength to obtain salvation is represented by the offering of Cain. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin; but that which is wrought through faith is acceptable to God. When we seek to gain heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress. "Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith," we may go on from strength to strength, from victory to victory; for through Christ the grace of God has worked out our complete salvation. {FW 94.1}

Faith and works go together, believing and doing are blended. The Lord requires no less of the soul now, than He required of Adam in Paradise before he fell-- perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement of God under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement He made in Paradise--harmony with His law, which is holy, and just, and good. The gospel does not weaken the claims of the law; it exalts the law and makes it honorable. Under the New Testament, no less is required than was required under the Old Testament. Let no one take up with the delusion so pleasant to the natural heart, that God will accept of sincerity, no matter what may be the faith, no matter how imperfect may be the life. God requires of His child perfect obedience. {1SM 373.1}

They profess faith, but it is not a living faith because it is not sustained by works. Faith without works is dead, being alone. Those who profess great faith, yet have not works, will not be saved by their faith. Satan believes the truth and trembles, yet this kind of faith possesses no virtue. Many who have made a high profession of faith are deficient in good works. If they should show their faith by their works they could exert a powerful influence on the side of truth. {2T 657.2}

Although we cannot work our to heaven we can and must allow heaven to work its way in us; otherwise the gates of heaven will be barred against us. And, in light of what Arnold and Rosangela believe, the sin-stained fruits of the Spirit they speak of do not qualify as "righteousness and true holiness". Nor can Jesus make them acceptable by covering them with His robe of righteousness. Jesus never has, and never will, sweeten sin with the fragrance of His blood and righteousness.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/19/11 03:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
Quote:
Paul says that those who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. How do you reconcile this statement with the fact that Paul says we are saved by faith and not by works?

What's the relationship between being saved, faith, good works, and sin?
  • We are saved BY faith.
  • We are saved APART FROM good works.
  • We are saved FOR good works.
  • We are saved FROM sin.
We have to keep them all straight if we want to avoid confusion.

I disagree. It is impossible to separate faith and good works. They always go hand-in-hand.

I never said otherwise.

Perhaps you can elaborate on what you're disagreeing with by quoting exactly what I said that you believe to be error.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/19/11 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
I never said otherwise. Perhaps you can elaborate on what you're disagreeing with by quoting exactly what I said that you believe to be error.

We are not "saved apart from good works." We are saved in and with "righteousness and true holiness."

You do not appear to believe people are "saved from sin." You adamantly declare people are born again defective and everything they think, say, and do is tainted with sin and selfishness.
Posted By: asygo

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/20/11 01:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
We are not "saved apart from good works." We are saved in and with "righteousness and true holiness."

Our salvation is not derived from our works, no matter how good they may be.

Romans 4:6
just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit - 12/20/11 07:16 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
M: We are not "saved apart from good works." We are saved in and with "righteousness and true holiness."

A: Our salvation is not derived from our works, no matter how good they may be.

Romans 4:6
just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

I agree with the passages you posted above. However, do you see a difference between the meaning of the following two statements:

1. We are not "saved apart from good works." We are saved in and with "righteousness and true holiness."

2. Our salvation is not derived from our works, no matter how good they may be.

Quote:
M: You do not appear to believe people are "saved from sin." You adamantly declare people are born again defective and everything they think, say, and do is tainted with sin and selfishness.

Do you agree with these observations?
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