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Study Notes On Evolution #9297
05/13/02 03:57 AM
05/13/02 03:57 AM
A
Anonymous OP
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How Old Is The Earth?

Lately, I have had some people put forth to me the idea that the earth is older than 6000 years. The first text they use to “prove” their point, is Gen.1:2

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

People are saying that since creation is usually dated from about six thousand years ago, then many of us have been wrong for all these years, in saying that the earth is only six thousand years old. The text says; “In the beginning,” the earth was without form and void…meaning, they say, the earth had actually been in existence, before creation day one, but, “without form and void.”

Does this line of thought give strength to the theory of evolution, or, does it strengthen the case for Biblical creation of the earth, about six thousand years ago, taking seven literal days?

COL.415.001
“ When "the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep," "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”

What happened on the earth during this time of being “without form and void?” Can we say the earth was “created" in this instance, at the point of being “without form and void?” Why would God have an earth “without form and void?” Does the Bible, or SOP, lend any credence to the assertion, that this means the earth is more than 6000 years old?

Let us look at one, brief example, to make my next point:

CT.467.002
“Never has the world's need for teaching and healing been greater than it is today. The world is full of those who need to be ministered unto--the weak, the helpless, the ignorant, the degraded. The continual transgression of man for nearly six thousand years has brought sickness, pain, and death as its fruit. Multitudes are perishing for lack of knowledge.”

There are 47 similar references in SOP to “six thousand years," and while I have not yet examined all of them; so far, they all seem to suggest in some way, that, yes, the human race has been in existence for about six thousand years; but I do not yet see any real evidence to definitely say the earth is more than six thousand years old.

Where does Ellen White get her evidence for the figure of six thousand? Does it really matter for some reason, what we believe, on this point?

I have also heard some strange new twistings regarding black holes, and the possibility of moving backwards in time, or forward in time...might be interesting to see how this affects the age of the earth, but that is likely a separate topic.

(maybe, it would be connected somehow to accretion disc proximity variants, to the surface of black holes?)

Okay...Let's just talk about the Earth without form and void thing....

[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]


Re: Study Notes On Evolution #9298
05/13/02 07:54 PM
05/13/02 07:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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I too believe that our planet existed, created long ago by God, in a state of raw material consisting of stone and water until 6,000 years ago when God spoke them into new forms of existence. Actually I go along with the first edition of the SDA Bible Commentary where they give a creation date of 3957 BC.

Re: Study Notes On Evolution [Re: Anonymous] #184917
08/13/17 07:17 PM
08/13/17 07:17 PM
dedication  Offline
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The age of the earth cannot be accurately determined with scientific dating methods. Why? Because we do not have any eye witness, or recorded data of the actual changes that occurred to the earth's surface, or to the chemical components and cycles of matter, in the long distant past. Without adequate data, all "testing" is tentative and subject to error.

Evolutionists have had to change their figures time and time again as new data emerged. Their biggest problem is thinking "all things continued as they naturally do today" when in reality, what is now may have been very different at various stages of earth's history.

Creationists understand the limitations of these dating methods better because they believe the Biblical record that at least one major world wide catastrophe took place that altered much of the earth's surface and could easily do in a short time processes which take a long time under more normal conditions.

Creationists ultimately date the earth using the chronology of the Bible. After all, there were eye witnesses of creation -- In the beginning God -- and His angel's shouted for joy as they saw the works of His hands! (Gen 1:1; Job 38:7)
Creationists believe the Bible is not just the ramblings of what historic people thought, but that the Bible is the inspired word fo God. Thus they believe that this is an accurate eyewitness account of world history.

And there are scientists who can show the Biblical account can be matched with much of the available data.

Re: Study Notes On Evolution [Re: Anonymous] #184918
08/13/17 09:11 PM
08/13/17 09:11 PM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: DavidTBattler

How Old Is The Earth?
The text says; “In the beginning,” the earth was without form and void…meaning, they say, the earth had actually been in existence, before creation day one, but, “without form and void.”<p>Does this line of thought give strength to the theory of evolution, or, does it strengthen the case for Biblical creation of the earth, about six thousand years ago, taking seven literal days?
COL.415.001
“ When "the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep," "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”
What happened on the earth during this time of being “without form and void?”


Interesting question!

But first -- in answering we are moving into the realm of uncertainty, even though texts and quotes will be used, it is not definite "proof" -- just a "maybe this is the way it was".

So MAYBE this is what happened, and I'm not the only one who has thought it might possibly be true.

What was going on in the courts of heaven as plans were being laid to create this earth?

"Christ was to work in union with God the Father in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon it.... Satan was jealous and envious of Jesus Christ. ...his heart was filled with envy and hatred. Christ had been taken into counsel with the Father in regard to his plans, while Satan was unacquainted with them." {ST, January 9, 1879 par. 2}

So part of Satan's jealousy and hatred was directly related to Christ and the Father laying plans to create this world.

"The loyal angels hasten speedily to the Son of God, and acquaint him with what is taking place among the angels. They find the Father in conference with his beloved Son, to determine the means by which, for the best good of the loyal angels, the assumed authority of Satan could be forever put down. The great God could at once have hurled this arch deceiver from heaven; but this was not his purpose. He would give the rebellious an equal chance to measure strength and might with his Son and his loyal angels. In this battle every angel would choose his own side, and his character and purposes would be manifested to all."

So a time of matching strength with strength was given.
One of the major issues was the creation of this earth.

Genesis 1:1 states "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
It doesn't give us any time frame there ---

In Isaiah 45:18 we read:
God himself that formed the earth and made it; he has established it, he created it not "tohuw".

"tohuw" means "without form" a "wasteland".
It's the very same word used in Genesis 1:2

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was "tohuw" and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

That is interesting. God did NOT created the earth without form, yet in Genesis 1:2 we find the earth "without form".

Did something happen between Genesis verse 1 and Genesis verse 2 that isn't mentioned in this chapter?

God makes everything perfect as soon as He creates anything (James 1:17). So it seems reasonable that the earth was created perfect, but then became "tohuw" or formless and void.

The word translated "was" in Genesis 1:2:
"And the earth was without form and void" is the Hebrew word "hayah", which can also be translated as "became".
We can see it translated as "became" in Genesis 2:7,"man became (hayah) a living soul" (Gen. 2:7)


Summary thus far:
Part of Satan's jealousy and hatred was directly related to Christ and the Father laying plans to create this world.

A time of matching strength (of Christ) with strength (of Lucifer) was given prior to Lucifer's expulsion.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Gen. 1:1
It doesn't give us any time frame there ---

God himself that formed the earth and made it; he has established it, he created it not "tohuw" . Isaiah 45:18
He did not create earth without form and void.

And the earth became "tohuw" and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. Genesis 1:2




To be continued


Re: Study Notes On Evolution [Re: Anonymous] #184921
08/13/17 11:09 PM
08/13/17 11:09 PM
dedication  Offline
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So what happened between verse 1 and 2 of Genesis.

Verse one speaks of the very beginning of creation.
God creates the heavens and the earth.

This would include far more than what we see in the six days of creation, which concern themselves with the creation of this earth and the surrounding objects of it's solar system.

It would include the creation of the angels and their heavenly home. The angel's were already in existence when the six day creation took place. Satan was already fallen and appears as such in chapter three of Genesis.

So it seems plausible that the creation of the angels in their heavenly realm took place between verse 1 and 2.
The rebellion of the angels and the big "show down" or "war" took place between verse 1 and 2.

Could it be that the apparent "chaos" and "tohuw" (without form and void) conditions in space as well as the condition of this earth prior to the six days -- were the result of the first ever WAR?

Could Satan have deliberately tried to destroy Christ's creative works in defiance and a "show of strength"?

Like -- why are there tens of thousands tiny planets called asteroids orbiting in the main asteroid belt, a vast doughnut-shaped ring between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter? An exploded planet?
And if those are now "mini planets" without form and void, maybe our earth was at one point much larger, and this is only a fragment of that explosion.

Of course we are entirely in speculating now -- but then some have wondered how the New Jerusalem (which would cover much of the USA in size and is as high as it is wide) could ever fit on this planet without totally knocking it out of its orbit. But maybe -- the "new earth" will have all it's pieces put back together and be much larger than it is now?

Just food for thought.
There are a lot of things about our earth we do not know.

This does magnify the Great Controversy to proportions far beyond the narrow view often placed upon it.


It also makes one wonder if Satan, who was so jealous when creation of this earth was being planned, may now have invented evolution theories, using the evidences of his war against the Creator, to claim that he actually did create this earth?

Re: Study Notes On Evolution [Re: Anonymous] #184922
08/14/17 04:54 AM
08/14/17 04:54 AM
APL  Offline
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Very likely chaos set in from the war because of sin between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

And from EGW's quote, Christ was the Son of God before creation week.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Study Notes On Evolution [Re: Anonymous] #184924
08/14/17 02:08 PM
08/14/17 02:08 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Dedication, careful.

Some use your same reasoning to say God created the earth, satan ruined it, so He created it again. Guess trying to get it right. They conclude this is why the Sabbath starts at sunrise instead of sunset. dunno And if you allow those multiple creations, then starting in Genesis 2:4, following the same reasoning, you'd have to allow yet another creation.

Question: Was the moon created without form? What about Mars and the rest of the planets?

Re: Study Notes On Evolution [Re: Anonymous] #184925
08/14/17 02:10 PM
08/14/17 02:10 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Why could not verse 1 be considered a summary of the chapter?

Re: Study Notes On Evolution [Re: kland] #184926
08/15/17 04:41 AM
08/15/17 04:41 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Dedication, careful.

Some use your same reasoning to say God created the earth, satan ruined it, so He created it again. Guess trying to get it right. They conclude this is why the Sabbath starts at sunrise instead of sunset. dunno And if you allow those multiple creations, then starting in Genesis 2:4, following the same reasoning, you'd have to allow yet another creation.

Question: Was the moon created without form? What about Mars and the rest of the planets?

Why could not verse 1 be considered a summary of the chapter?


Good questions.
As I said -- this topic does explore rather unknown waters.
But, just accepting verse one as a summary of the chapter, leaves a lot of unanswered questions.

1st-- the earth was already there BEFORE the creative acts of day one.
2nd -- there was already a lot of life in the universe before the creative acts of "day 1" -- there were angels, there was the angels' abode in heaven, the whole rebellion of Satan and his angelic followers took place BEFORE day one of creation.
These things are revealed in scripture and especially in EGW's writings.

Another question -- why is there what appears to be an exploded planet orbiting between Mars and Jupiter?

Yes, why are there planets orbiting the sun that are totally uninhabitable?

Why are Earth, Mars, and Earth's moon composed of similar substances, while planets like Venus are totally different?


Also why would you automatically think God fully created the earth prior to the Genesis account? And why would you say, if Satan ruined things, that the first creation wasn't "right"?


Remember the quotes I gave --
God the Father and Christ the Son were making plans to create the world. Satan was extremely jealous he wasn't included and started a propaganda campaign for himself amongst the angels.

God and Christ decided they would allow show of "strength against strength" in which all the angels could take sides.

So what if (and yes it is IF) God created the solar system containing earth. In it the earth was much larger than it is now -- and it was rotating around a bright sun. I do not believe that mankind was yet created -- but everything was ready.

Then came the "war" between Christ and His angels and Satan and his angels. That war wasn't just some angels with primitive swords pushing each other around, it was a COSMIC war, with energy weapons earthlings haven't even yet discovered, and earthlings have discovered some pretty high energy stuff.

The war caused heavy destruction in the universe, and this earth received its measure of Satan's wrath. The sun went out, planets crashed into each other. Earth was shattered and blown apart -- pieces flying everywhere -- one of those pieces is now the moon.

When the war was over -- the earth was without form and void

Ever wonder how earth could have existed without the gravitational pull of the sun to keep it in orbit? The sun was already there -- but dark.
It had gone out during the war.

So, after the war, Father and Son go back to their plan of creating the world. First turning it into a livable planet/ Then fixing the sun on the fourth day.
Then finally, creating the life forms upon the earth.

It doesn't change the creation story.
It doesn't change God's counting "evening" and then "morning" comprising a day.

Nor does it in the least bit change the Sabbath.







There are a lot more questions as well -- like why is their considerable chaos in the universe? For example: two terrestrial planets orbiting a mature sun-like star some 300 light-years from Earth recently suffered a violent collision, according to astronomers at UCLA, Tennessee State University and the California Institute of Technology.

Re: Study Notes On Evolution [Re: Mountain Man] #184927
08/15/17 12:34 PM
08/15/17 12:34 PM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I too believe that our planet existed, created long ago by God, in a state of raw material consisting of stone and water until 6,000 years ago when God spoke them into new forms of existence. Actually I go along with the first edition of the SDA Bible Commentary where they give a creation date of 3957 BC.


Very interesting date. Has the SDA Commentary stopped publishing a date?

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