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Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message [Re: dedication] #185144
09/16/17 04:15 AM
09/16/17 04:15 AM
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"The Third Angel's Message. Its Basis in the Seven Trumpets" Advent Review and Sabbath Herald July, 31, 1900, p. 488.

WE are now going to study the place of the great nations of the earth, in their relation to the Third Angel's Message, considered from the basis of the line of prophecy of the Seven Trumpets in Revelation.

The first thing we need to do, therefore, is to discover that the Third Angel's Message really has a basis in the Seven Trumpets. This will be easy; for it is made perfectly plain in the Scriptures.

Let us begin with the Third Angel's Message,—Rev. 14:2,—and work backwards to its direct connections.

The first words introducing the Third Angel's Message are: "And the third angel followed them." This shows that some angels have gone before, whom the third angel "followed."

Go back a verse: "And there followed another angel." This shows that this angel was also preceded by an angel, which, when this one followed, makes it "another."

Now go back now to the sixth verse: "And I saw another angel." This also certifies that an angel has gone before this angel as well, which causes this one, as he flies in the midst of heaven, to be "another."


But what angel preceded the angel of Rev. 14:6? Following back in the book of Revelation, we find no angel, except the seventh trumpet angel in Revelation eleven. Then we come to the first verse of chapter ten; and there we read: "And I saw another mighty angel."

This expression, once again, certifies that, before this, there is an angel, which, when this one comes forth, causes him to be spoken of as "another."

Following further back, we find no angels, except the sixth and the fifth trumpet angels, until we reach the last verses of chapter eight; and there we reach the primal, and read: "And I beheld, and heard an angel"—not "another angel," but, primarily, "an angel."


Thus, beginning with Rev. 8:13, there is a series of angels connected by the word "another," straight through to the third angel with his message. Thus:—

Primal angel-
Rev. 8:13 "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe

"And I saw another mighty angel." Rev. 10:1.

"And I saw another angel." Rev. 14:6.

"And there followed another angel." Verse 8.

"And the third angel followed them." Verse 9.

But now notice: That angel in Rev. 8:13, the first in this series that connects straight through to the third angel,—this angel comes in right in the midst of the series of the Seven Trumpets.

The first four trumpets sound in Rev. 8:7-12. Immediately following the fourth trumpet, between that and the fifth trumpet angel, the first one in this other series of angels that connects straight through to the Third Angel's Message gives his message.


And this angel of Rev. 8:13 not only comes in in the midst of the seven trumpet angels, but his word relates directly to the remaining three of the seven trumpet angels. As we read in the whole verse:
"And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

These three woes belong with the last three trumpets, one with each. This is certain by the fact that, when the fifth angel's work is ended, it is written: "One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter." Rev. 9:12. And when the sixth trumpet is ended, "the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded." Rev. 11:15.

1st Trumpet—8:1
2nd Trumpet—8:8
3rd Trumpet—8:10
4th Trumpet—8:12

"An Angel"—Woe, Woe, Woe. 8:13
5th Trumpet—9:1-11. First woe.
6th Trumpet—9:11 to 11:13. Second woe.
"Another mighty angel." 10:1.
7th Trumpet—11:13-19. Third woe.
"Another angel." 14:6.
"There followed another." 14:8.
"The third angel followed them." 14:2
.

Thus, it is plain that the three woes pronounced by the primal angel, who comes in in the midst of the Seven Trumpets, are expressive of the character of the last three of the Seven Trumpets. Then, just at the end of the sixth trumpet, and before the sounding of the seventh, we find the words:

"And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven," etc. And this angel gives his message before the seventh trumpet sounds, because he speaks directly of the seventh trumpet as yet future, in the words:
"In the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound," etc. Rev. 10:7.

Then, when the seventh angel does sound, it is written: "And the seventh angel sounded. . . . And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great." Rev. 11:15-18.

Thus, under the sounding of the seventh trumpet angel, there comes "the time of the dead, that they should be judged;" and along with this comes that "other angel," in Rev. 14:6, 7, "having the everlasting gospel to preach, . . . saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment IS come." Rev. 14:6, 7.

"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen." "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God." Rev. 14:9, 10.

And of the events that occur under the sounding of the seventh angel, one is, "Thy wrath is come."

Further: the Third Angel's Message is followed immediately by the coming of the Lord; for it is written: "I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle." Rev. 14:14.

It is at the coming of the Lord that the saints of God are rewarded. For he says: "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Rev. 22:12. And one of the events that occur under the sounding of the seventh trumpet is "that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great."

Thus, by every consideration of the word of God on the subject of the Third Angel's Message and the Seven Trumpets, it is certain that the Seven Trumpets are a basis of the Third Angel's Message.

ATJ

Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message #185145
09/16/17 08:59 PM
09/16/17 08:59 PM
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There has been much talk of "reconsidering" the seven trumpets.

Yet, the historicist interpretation has been an anchor pillar for the three angel's messages, and I think those seriously studying the subject should at least be knowledgeable concerning this understanding.

These are articles written by A.T.Jones in 1900.


Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message [Re: dedication] #185147
09/16/17 09:35 PM
09/16/17 09:35 PM
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"The Third Angel's Message. Its Basis in the Seven Trumpets"
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, Aug. 7, 1900 p. 504.


IN last week's study we found that the Third Angel's Message certainly has a basis in the line of prophecy of the Seven Trumpets; that the Third Angel's Message is held in view from the very first of the Seven Trumpets until the last one; and that, therefore, in studying the Seven Trumpets, from beginning to end, we are simply studying the Third Angel's Message, from its foundation unto its end.

But the Seven Trumpets themselves have a basis. The line of prophecy of the Seven Trumpets is a consequence of events.
The events foretold therein occur because of certain things that have been done, and these certain things are shown in the first three steps in each of the two preceding lines of prophecy in the book of Revelation—the Seven Churches and the Seven Seals.
Therefore, to find the basis of the Seven Trumpets, we must glance at these things, which are their cause.

FIRST THREE OF THE SEVEN CHURCHES
The line of prophecy of the Seven Churches is composed of seven letters addressed by the Lord to his church in the seven phases of her experience, from the first advent of Christ unto his second. In each of these seven letters, not only is counsel given in the way of right, but there are pointed out the dangers and evils that beset the church, against which she must be especially guarded, and which, in order to remain pure, she must escape.

To the church in her first stage—"the church of Ephesus"—he says: "I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works." Rev. 2:4, 5.
This points definitely to the beginning of the "falling away" that is mentioned by Paul to the elders of the church at Ephesus (Acts 20:30), and that is dwelt upon especially in 2 Thessalonians 2; which falling away eventually developed "that man of sin," "the son of perdition," "who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." 2 Thess. 2:3, 4.

The letter to the church in her second phase is wholly commendatory. This shows that, while individuals had continued in the apostasy mentioned in the first letter, yet the church herself had heeded the counsel given by the Head of the church, and had repented, and returned to "the first works." The time of this phase of the church's experience is definitely suggested in the word that she should "have tribulation ten days." Rev. 2:10. This refers to the ten years of persecution in the reign of Diocletian, from A.D. 302-312; which was ended by the Edict of Milan, issued by the two emperors Constantine and Licinius, March, A.D. 312.

Then comes the third phase of the church, in which the counsel from Christ mentions with commendation the fact that she had held fast his name, and had not denied his faith, "even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr." Rev. 2:13. This word "Antipas" is not a person's name, but is a term characteristic of the times. It is composed of two Greek words,—anti anti, and papas pappas. anti anti signifies against, and pappas pappas, which is our English, and also the universal, word for "papa." The word "papa" is simply the repetition of the original root word "pa." And this word "papa" is the original word "pope."

Therefore this word "Antipas"—"against 'pas,' or 'papas,'"—shows the growth of the papa-cy in the period immediately following A. D. 312. This was the period of Constantine, and onward, in which the papa-cy itself was distinctly made, and began openly to assert its authority. And in that time the history records that while the other principal bishops of the church bore the title of "patriarch," "the bishops of Rome studiously avoided the title of 'patriarch,' as placing him on a level with other 'patriarchs.' He always preferred the title of 'papa,' or 'pope' (Schaff); and this, because 'patriarch' bespeaks an oligarchical church government, that is, government by a few; whereas 'pope' bespeaks a monarchical church government, that is, government by one."—"Two Republics," page 485. Thus the history and the word of the counsel of Christ unite in marking, as the characteristic of that phase of the church, the formation of the papacy, and the assertion of the authority of the pope.


This definitely brings us to the time of the making of the papacy; and corresponds exactly, in point of time, to the facts of history following the Edict of Milan, which put an end to the "tribulation" mentioned in the previous letter to the church.

Thus the "falling away," the leaving of the "first love," mentioned in the first letter, had, in this time of the third letter, culminated in the papacy.

FIRST THREE OF THE SEVEN SEALS
Now this same course is marked in the first three steps of the line of prophecy of the Seven Seals. There, under the first seal, was seen going forth a white horse (Rev. 6:2), corresponding to the church in her first phase, in her purity.
But the counsel of Christ in his first letter said that there was a falling away from her first love; and this is signified in the second seal, under which "there went out another horse that was red."
And under the third seal "I beheld, and lo a black horse." Rev. 6:5. Thus the symbols in the seals, passing from white to black, mark the course of the apostasy from the first love, in which Christ was all in all, in the first stage, to the third stage, in which, "where Satan's seat" was, and where Satan dwelt, a man was put in the place of God, in the temple, the church, of God (Eph. 2:21), showing himself that he is God. Verses 20-22.

Now, the effect of this apostasy, which developed the papacy within the Roman Empire, resulted in the complete ruin of the Roman Empire. And this consequence of the apostasy marked in these first three steps in the two lines of prophecy of the seven churches and the seven seals, is marked in the line of prophecy of the Seven Trumpets. The trumpet is herein used as a symbol, because the trumpet is the symbol of war; and it was by the war of the floods of barbarians from the north that there was swept away that mass of corruption that was heaped upon the Roman Empire by its union with the apostate church in the making of the papacy.

(Continued in next post)

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message [Re: dedication] #185148
09/16/17 09:54 PM
09/16/17 09:54 PM
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Thus the Third Angel's Message has a basis in the Seven Trumpets.
The Seven Trumpets have their basis in the apostasy noted in the first and third of the Seven Churches and the first three of the Seven Seals.
And thus, through the Seven Trumpets, the Third Angel's Message finds its basis in the apostasy noted in the first and third of the Seven Churches and the first three of the Seven Seals.

This apostasy made the Beast;
and the Third Angel's Message rises in the time of the making of the Image of the Beast, and utters its warning against the worship of the Beast and his Image.

The Image of the Beast finds his original in the Beast.

The result, to the Roman Empire, of the making of the Beast in the Roman Empire and by the Roman Empire, was the utter ruin of that empire.
This ruin was accomplished by the mighty armies of the peoples of the north marching forth under the first four of the Seven Trumpets.
The result, to the world, of setting up the Image of the Beast, and the worship of the Beast and his Image, in the world and by the world, will be the utter ruin of the world, by the mighty armies of another people marching forth under the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet, accompanied by the mighty notes of "the last trump."


And concerning this, it is written: "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand; a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: and the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?" Joel 2:1-11.
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." {August 7, 1900 ATJ, ARSH 504.17}

Next week we shall study more.

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message [Re: dedication] #185156
09/17/17 10:49 PM
09/17/17 10:49 PM
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"The Third Angel's Message. Its Basis in the Seven Trumpets" Advent Review and Sabbath Herald August 14, 1900, p. 520.

THE trumpet is the symbol of war; as it is written: "Thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war." Jer. 4:19, "For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?" 1 Cor. 14:8. "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain." Joel 2:1.


We have found that the Seven Trumpets prophesy the consequences of the making of the Beast, which grew out of the great apostasy from Christianity.

The Beast was made in the Roman Empire by the union of the apostate church with that republic which had degenerated into an imperial despotism; and the result to the Roman Empire, of the making of the Beast, was the utter ruin of that empire.

This ruin was accomplished by the mighty armies of the peoples of the north, which, in a succession of mighty tides, overflowed the western empire of Rome, in the time covered by the first four of the Seven Trumpets.


"Coming last among what are called the great monarchies of prophecy, it was the only one which realized in perfection the idea of a monarchia, being strictly coincident with the civilized world. Civilization and this empire were commensurate; they were interchangeable ideas and coextensive."

And when that empire perished, to those unenlightened by the word of God it really seemed, in the violence of the times, that the world was at its end. No man can imagine the terror of the times. Of the fall of that empire it has been said that—
...Never had the existence of a nation been more completely overthrown;
...never had individuals had more evils to endure and more dangers to apprehend.
...Whence came it that the population were dumb and dead? How is it that so many
...sacked towns, so many ruined positions, so many blasted careers, so many ejected
... proprietors, have left so few traces. I do not say of their active existence,
...but only of their sufferings?—Guizot.

Although it was not the end of the world, yet, like the fall of Babylon of old, the fall of Rome is full of lessons that indicate exactly the things that will be at the end of the world. For that, with all its terrors, was the consequence of the evils heaped upon society by the making and the working of the Beast. And when the world shall really end, that, with the terrors that accompany it, will be but the consequence of the evil that is heaped upon the society of the world at this time, by the making and the working of the Image of the Beast.

And as the Beast itself is the standard of comparison in all things respecting the making and the working of the Image of the Beast, so the state of society and the affairs of the empire and nations of that time of the Beast are a faithful standard of comparison by which to read correctly the course and condition of the nations in these times of the Image of the Beast.

A brief sketch of the condition of society at that time will therefore be of double value just here. The same corruptions that had characterized the former (pagan) Rome were reproduced in the Rome of the fifth century.

...The primitive rigor of discipline and manners was utterly neglected and forgotten
... by the ecclesiastics of Rome. The most exorbitant luxury, with all the vices attending it,
...was introduced among them, and the most scandalous and unchristian arts of acquiring
... wealth universally practiced. They seemed to have rivaled in riotous living the greatest
...epicures of pagan Rome when luxury was there at the highest pitch. For Jerome, who was an
...eye-witness of what he writ, reproaches the Roman clergy with the same excesses which the
...poet Juvenal so severely censured in the Roman nobility under the reign of Domitian.—Bower.

...Everything was determined by auguries and auspices; the wild orgies of the Bacchanalians,
...with all their obscene songs and revelry, were not wanting.—Merivale.

...And now the criminal and frivolous pleasures of a decrepit civilization left no thought for
...the absorbing duties of the day nor the fearful trials of the morrow. Unbridled lust and
...unblushing indecency admitted no sanctity in the marriage tie. The rich and powerful
...established harems, in the recesses of which their wives lingered, forgotten, neglected,
...and despised. The banquet, theater, and the circus exhausted what little strength
...and energy were left by domestic excesses. The poor aped the vices of the rich, and
...hideous depravity reigned supreme, and invited the vengeance of heaven.—Lea.

The pagan superstitions, the pagan delusions, and the pagan vices, which had been brought into the church by the apostasy, and clothed with a form of godliness, had wrought such corruption that the society of which it was a part could no longer exist. From it no more good could possibly come, and it must be swept away.

...The uncontrollable progress of avarice, prodigality, voluptuousness, theater-going,
...intemperance, lewdness; in short, of all the heathen vices, which Christianity had come to
...eradicate, still carried the Roman Empire and people with rapid strides toward dissolution,
...and gave it at last into the hands of the rude, but simple and morally vigorous, barbarians.—Schaff.

It is impossible that it should be otherwise. By apostasy that gospel had lost its purity and its power in the multitudes who professed it. It was now used only as a cloak to cover the same old pagan wickedness. This form of godliness, practiced not only without the power but in defiance of it, permeated the great masses of the people, and the empire had thereby become a festering mass of corruption.
When thus the only means which it was possible for the Lord himself to employ to purify the people, had been taken and made only the cloak under which to increase unto more ungodliness, there was no other remedy; destruction must come. {August 14, 1900 ATJ, to be continued}

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message [Re: dedication] #185157
09/17/17 11:11 PM
09/17/17 11:11 PM
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{August 14, 1900 ATJ, continued}

And it did come, by a host, wild and savage, it is true, but whose social habits were so far above those of the people which they destroyed, that, savage as they were, they were caused fairly to blush at the shameful corruptions which they found in this so-called Christian society of Rome.

A writer who lived at the time of the barbarian invasions, and who wrote as a Christian, exclaims:—

..."The church, which ought everywhere to propitiate God, what does she but provoke him to anger?
...How many may one meet, even in the church, who are not still drunkards, or debauchees,
...or adulterers, or fornicators, or robbers, or murderers, or the like, or all these at once,
...without end? It is even a sort of holiness among Christian people to be less vicious."
...From the public worship of God, and almost during it, they pass to deeds of shame. Scarce a
...rich man but would commit murder and fornication. We have lost the whole power of Christianity, .
...and offend God the more, that we sin as Christians. We are worse than the barbarians and heathen.
...If the Saxon is wild, the Frank faithless, the Goth inhuman, the Alanian drunken, the Hun
...licentious, they are, by reason of their ignorance, far less punishable than we, who,
...knowing the commandments of God, commit all these crimes.—Schaff.

...You, Roman, Christians, and Catholics, are defrauding your brethren, are grinding the
...faces of the poor, are frittering away your lives over the impure and heathenish spectacles
...of the amphitheater. You are wallowing in licentiousness and inebriety. The barbarians,
...meanwhile, heathen or heretics though they may be, and however fierce toward us,
...are just and fair in their dealings with one another. The men of the same clan, and
...following the same king, love one another with true affection. The impurities of
...the theater are unknown amongst them. Many of their tribes are free from the taint of
...drunkenness, and among all, except the Alans and the Huns, chastity is the rule.

...Not one of these tribes is altogether vicious. If they have their vices, they have also
...their virtues, clear, sharp, and well defined. Whereas you, my beloved fellow provincials,
...I regret to say, with the exception of a few holy men among you, are altogether bad. Your
...lives from the cradle to the grave are a tissue of rottenness and corruption,
...and all this notwithstanding that you have the sacred Scriptures in your hands.

...In what other race of men would you find such evils as these which are practiced
...among the Romans? Where else is there such injustice as ours? The Franks know nothing
...of this villainy. The Huns are clear of crimes like these. None of these exactions are
...practiced among the Vandals, none among the Goths. So far are the barbarian Goths from
...tolerating frauds like these, that not even the Romans who live under the Gothic rule are
...called upon to endure them, and hence the one wish of all the Romans in those parts is
...that it may never be necessary for them to pass under the Roman jurisdiction. With one
...consenting voice the lower orders of Romans put up the prayer that they may be permitted
...to spend their life, such as it is, alongside of the barbarians. And then we marvel
...that our arms should not triumph over the arms of the Goths, when our own countrymen
...would rather be with them than with us.—Salvian.

These events of the Seven Trumpets are important in another sense also; that is, that the peoples by whom was wrought "the divine judgment of destruction upon this nominally Christian, but essentially heathen, world," are, in their descent, the great nations of to-day; and are to-day the living subjects of the prophecies relating to our times.

In the destruction of the Western Empire there were planted, in its place, the ten kingdoms of the seventh chapter of Daniel, of which the seven that remain after the rooting up of the three before the papacy, are the kingdoms in whose "days," according to Dan. 2:44, "shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever."


The first four trumpets are not, however, an account of the planting of the ten kingdoms. These are prophetic pictures of the most terrible of the mighty invasions by which Western Rome was ruined, and through which the ten kingdoms were planted. There were more than ten nations engaged in the invasion and ruin of the Roman Empire. Indeed, there were more than fifteen of those nations; and, out of this number, ten kingdoms, divided among themselves the territory of Western Rome.

Continued next week.

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message [Re: dedication] #185179
09/26/17 02:06 AM
09/26/17 02:06 AM
dedication  Offline OP
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Summary thus far in this study.

The third angel's message is part of the 7th trumpet.
The first six trumpets build up to the third angel's message.

Actually the seven churches and seven seals all build up to the event from slightly different perspectives, each series adding different details to help us see the whole picture.

The issue is between false and true worship.

The study so far has been focused on the making of the "beast" (a powerful false worship).
This is explained in the first churches and seals.

Imperial Rome nurtured this "beast" and "made it".
But false worship, though powerful in a political way, is powerless to change the nature of mankind's carnal mind and ambitions.
Society in general did not become a more "godly" society, when Imperial Rome adopted Christianity and formed the "beast" power. The so called "heathen" had better morals!

There was no other remedy, destruction must come, and it did.
Trumpet after trumpet was sounded upon them, (four in number) till the political, so called, Christian Rome (the western Empire) fell.


What do we learn from this?
What does this history teach us?

These are question we need to contemplate in light of what is happening in our day.

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message [Re: dedication] #185181
09/26/17 01:57 PM
09/26/17 01:57 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Quote:
But what angel preceded the angel of Rev. 14:6? Following back in the book of Revelation, we find no angel, except the seventh trumpet angel in Revelation eleven. Then we come to the first verse of chapter ten; and there we read: "And I saw another mighty angel."

In studying revelation, can we compare the order from one chapter to another? Especially considering chapter 12 comes after chapter 11. Could he be wrong on this idea? How does this compare when Ellen White says trumpet after trumpet shall sound in the last days (future)? Technically, that would mean at least 2 more would sound, and reasonably that would mean 3 or more would need to sound.

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message [Re: kland] #185184
09/27/17 04:44 AM
09/27/17 04:44 AM
dedication  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
But what angel preceded the angel of Rev. 14:6? Following back in the book of Revelation, we find no angel, except the seventh trumpet angel in Revelation eleven. Then we come to the first verse of chapter ten; and there we read: "And I saw another mighty angel."

In studying revelation, can we compare the order from one chapter to another? Especially considering chapter 12 comes after chapter 11.


Basically A.T.Jones bases this on the fact that Revelation 14's "first" angel, is "another angel".

"Another angel" seems to imply that there was an angel before him.
So Jones, goes back to Rev. 13 and finds only the account of the beast and the image of the beast (these are the powers that that the Revelation 14's angels loudly warn against). But there is no angel mention Revelation 13.

Then Jones, goes back to Rev. 12, and finds a dragon (Satan) fighting against Christ and His "bride" -- this dragon is the power behind the beast and the image of the beast, which the angel of Revelation 14 warned against.

But still he sees no other angel (he's looking for an angel with messages from heaven).

He has to go back to Revelation eleven before he sees any other angels, but this is just the trumpet angel, so he is still looking for the "beginning" angel.



Originally Posted By: Kland
Could he be wrong on this idea?


It is a bit of a different way of looking at the scriptures, as John the Revelator, presents things in parallel sequences, not necessarily in actual sequence.

Yet there are numerous other indicators that he is correct. He finds his "primary" angel in this sequence, in Rev. 8:13

1st trumpet (8:7)
2nd trumpet (8:8
3rd trumpet (8:9-11)
4th trumpet (8:12)
AN ANGEL (8:13)
5th trumpet (9:1-11)
6th trumpet (9:12-21
ANOTHER ANGEL (10:1)
Revelation 10
  • angel announces the end of time reckoning
  • Seven thunders (which EGW says"the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages" 7BC 971.6
  • the message is welcomed as intensely sweet
  • but the bitterness of misunderstanding is also intense
  • they must prophecy again

Revelation 11
The beast is given a death wound by the very nation it called "it's first son of the church". A movement meant to end Christianity and the Bible was used by God to bring freedom of religion and made scripture available to all.

The seventh trumpet (Rev. 11:15-19)


This ends the sequential seven trumpets.

Revelation 12 and 13 present the contestants against Christ.
Revelation 14 gives the call to worship God, and strongly warns against these contestants.
ANOTHER ANGEL (14:6)
ANOTHER ANGEL (14:8)
A THIRD FOLLOWED (14:9)



Originally Posted By: Kland
How does this compare when Ellen White says trumpet after trumpet shall sound in the last days (future)? Technically, that would mean at least 2 more would sound, and reasonably that would mean 3 or more would need to sound.


As you study through the trumpets a very strong picture emerges concerning the "beast" and those who unite with him-- the real power of which wasn't yet realized during the first four trumpets.

The next two trumpets happen when the beast is in it's 1260 years of power.

The last or seventh trumpet is not only concerning the revival of the "beast" but now he receives a partner -- the "image of the beast".
Revelation 13 introduces us to that aspect.

The image of the beast will follow the SAME pattern as the beast -- history will repeat itself in swift and short order.



Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, and sadly the world is moving to repeat it.

May we be with those pictured in Revelation 14:1-7
with Jesus -- our lives showing the victory over sin that only true faith in Christ can bring.

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message [Re: dedication] #185185
09/28/17 05:10 AM
09/28/17 05:10 AM
dedication  Offline OP
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First four trumpets sounded -- what did it signify?

A.T.Jones continues in --
"The Third Angel's Message. Its Basis in the Seven Trumpets" Advent Review and Sabbath Herald August 28, 1900 p. 552




"IN the events of the first four of the Seven Trumpets, the Western Empire of Rome was blotted out.

Out of the tribes of barbarians, which, like mighty tides, in succession overflowed the territory of Western Rome, ten established themselves in ten independent kingdoms, and there stood as independent kingdoms in A. D. 476, when the last vestige of the Roman Empire had vanished.
The Western Empire of Rome was gone, and just ten nations stood in her territory, in her stead...

These ten kingdoms were first mentioned in the prophecy of Daniel, especially in the "ten horns" of the "fourth beast." Dan. 7:7, 24. They are referred to later in the book of Revelation, in the description of the dragon, and also of the Beast, having "seven heads and ten horns." Also, in the prophecy of Daniel it is related that there would come up among these ten another one, a stout little horn,and by it three of the ten would be "plucked up by the roots." The three which were plucked up, were the Heruli, who occupied Italy; the Vandals, who occupied North Africa; and the Ostrogoths, who had been instrumental in uprooting the Heruli, and then occupying Italy in their place.
That "other one," before whom these three were rooted up, is described as having "eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things;" and was, and is, the papacy....

They stand there in precisely the condition in which that prophecy said they would stand—"partly strong, and partly broken," or weak. Britain, France, and Germany have spread their power over the whole world, and have so intertwined themselves in the affairs of the whole world that what touches the world touches them, and what touches them touches the world.

And these kingdoms, with the papacy, are the elements that compose the Beast and his power, against whose work, with that of the Image of the Beast, the Third Angel's Message utters its solemn warning.

Thus, in one way, through the Seven Trumpets we find the place of the great nations of Western Europe, as they are to-day. And, in another way, we thus find, through the Seven Trumpets, the basis of the Third Angel's Message.

And, in yet other ways, we shall find these same things through the remaining three of the Seven Trumpets.

* * * (the next paragraphs taken from A.T.Jones 1895 sermon, recorded in GC Bulletin)

For centuries the Roman Empire was the world; civilization was embraced within its limits, under its control. The papacy saw the Roman Empire go to pieces; she saw universal anarchy there. She saw the world at that time in its death agony, yet out of that death agony of the world she exalted herself to the supremacy that she had in the Dark Ages and wrought the mischief that cursed the world so long.

The papacy sees the same elements working again—the same movements again going on among the nations, and she congratulates herself. “We did it once. Once I rose upon the ruins of that thing. I will do it again. That demonstrated to the world in that day that I was superior to all earthly things.

This will demonstrate to the world in this day—large as it is—‘I am, and there is none else beside me.’ I shall be a lady forever. ‘I sit a queen and am no widow and shall see no sorrow.’”
That is her tone; that is what she is watching for; and God has opened this up to us in the prophecies that are before us and he wants us to call to all the people that the world is in its death agony. She raised herself upon the ruins of the death agony of the Roman world, and after the pattern of her old experience, she proposes to do the like thing now. She will succeed; that is certain. And it is likewise certain that her success will be her certain ruin, and therefore, “Come out of her my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins and that ye receive not of her plagues.”


Comments:

When Imperial Rome fell, the papacy saw it as an opportunity to gain power. At this point in Revelation 8:13 the primary angel is first seen declaring the woes upon the world --
The millennium to follow is the 1260 years of papal primacy.

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