I want to prepare this discusson on the belief of "Sinless Perfection" with a description of what is meant by "Sinless Perfection" as many think it is a 'sinless' life which it is not as scripture makes clear.

1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

So this is not a discussion on 'sinlessness' per se, as one can sin yet still reach this state of 'perfection'. It is a state or level that is reached with divine help in which we no longer sin or desire to sin, so lets start with the definition of the building blocks of belief we will use in this thread.


1) Man (sinful humans) on his own cannot achieve righteousness.

2) Perfection is when Man (sinful humans) has with the power of the divine, overcome sin to the state of Adam before the fall.

3) Adam before the fall had freewill and could sin, but when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

4)Man (sinful humans) cannot go to heaven before God with any sin, as God requires holiness and perfection.


Now keep in mind that as the Fundamental Beliefs have the following:

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

...Ellen White's writings are not a external source to the argument, but well within the realm of it as those who accept its source as the Spirit of Prophecy cannot be denied its use in this discussion.

Now there are many verses that speak of 'overcoming' so we must first look at them to see what is being overcome. If everyone can bring up the verses or quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy and lay them out so we can look at them. Here are a few:

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Overcoming sin, self, and Satan "even as [Jesus] also overcame" obviously cannot involve sinning and repenting until sinning ceases. It must necessarily mean successfully recognizing and resisting temptations from within and from without.

Is the problem one that God causes? (because He requires holiness and perfection) Or is the problem that sin itself ruins one's character so that one would not be happy in heaven?

Hopefully the difference is clear.



The problem is not one of what God requires, but of what unfits one for heaven.

When discussing perfection, is it important that we understand this distinction? I think it is.

Sin cannot dwell in the presence of God, therefore, God requires sinlessness. He desires greatly to dwell with us and greatly desires us to have peace and happiness, which means He must necessarily demand godliness, righteousness, and true holiness. They're called Ten Commandments for good reason. They're also not called Ten Suggestions for good reasons. God demands and commands sinlessness because it's for our good and the good of the Universe.

What does this mean? If we look at Christ, we see that sinners, full of sin, were able to dwell in the presence of Christ. However, when "divinity flashed through humanity," such as at the cleansing of the temple, the money-changers were constrained to leave Christ's presence. So there's certainly a sense in which the above is true, but we should understand what that circumstance is.

Sin is not a sentient being. It doesn't exist of itself. To say that sin cannot dwell in the presence of God doesn't really mean anything, unless we understand that sin is something which pertains to sinners. That is, sinners cannot reside in the presence of God, but not because of something which God does to make this the case, but simply because of the nature of sin, and how it acts upon one's conscience, as we see in the case of the money-changers. Or Judas is another example.



It's certainly true that God greatly desires us to have peace and happiness. To say that God "demands" godliness, righteousness, and true holiness should be understood in its proper context. God "demands" these things in that He communicates to us what the truth is. He tells us the truth about the nature of His kingdom, His own character, and the nature of sin.

It's not as if there were some other alternative, and God could "demand" something else.



What needs to be understood is what's driving things. As you point out, avoiding sin is for our own good and the good of the Universe. But against it's not as if there were some other way. God simply communicates the truth to us.

Also "sinless" is the same thing as love (agape), right? And "love cannot be commanded." (DA 22) Going on:"Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan."

This is why the "whole purpose" of Christ's mission was "the revelation of God" that man might be set right and kept right with God.

Even if sinners ceased sinning they would still be consumed in the presence of God. There's nothing arbitrary about it. That's just what would happen.

God commands and demands righteousness and true holiness because there is no other alternative. But He also does so to make it clear what is required of us. Again, they're called Ten Commandments - not something else.

And, we are commanded to love God and to love one another. It's not optional. "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

Mark
12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.
12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

If a sinner ceased sinning he would no longer be a sinner, and there would be no reason for him to die. He did the sinner stop sinning?



You're not giving any context here for your comments, so I don't know what point you're addressing or why. Of course there is no alternative to righteousness. What would the alternative be? What is required of us is to live according to the law of life for the universe, which is agape. This is because God wants us to live. The foundation of sin is selfishness, which can only lead to suffering, misery, and death, right? Agape = life. Selfishness = death.



Same thing. It's not an arbitrary command, but simply a description of reality.

Jesus told Ellen she would be consumed to death if she were allowed to appear in the presence of God in her current state. I take this to mean sinful flesh cannot survive in the fire light of God's person and presence. I realize you dispute (and despise) this observation.

Yes, I agree, the law describes righteousness and true holiness. But it also condemns sinning. Through the law, God commands and demands and promises obedience. But He also promises to punish and annihilate persistent sinners. If God hadn't promised to execute and eliminate unsaved sinners such recourse wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on.

PS - In accordance with the passages posted above, it is clear God commands us to love Him and to love one another.