Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..?

Posted By: Rick H

Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/02/10 01:49 AM

Many come and say well Jesus went to a wedding and had wine, so what would be your answer to someone who told you this?
Posted By: JCS

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/03/10 07:15 PM

The meaning to the Greek word "oinos" #3631 does not specify that it is fermented. The word "wine" didn't always mean that it was of the fermented nature as it does today. Meaning Welch's concord grape juice and a bottle of red wine are both forms of "wine", one is fermented the other is not.

Though scripture doesn't seemingly forbid the consumption of fermented wine, It most certainly prohibits drunkeness. With what is known today of the destructive effects of alcohol, why would anyone intentionally defile the temple of God with such filth? It destroys the one part of man that preserves what Christ seeks to save.

Destroy the frontal lobe, and all of the mental processes that govern our moral behavior ceases to exist. Without it, we may as well be intellegent animals with no moral compass. Unsafe to save.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/03/10 07:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Richard
Many come and say well Jesus went to a wedding and had wine, so what would be your answer to someone who told you this?

I would say they need to read John chapter two carefully.

1) No part of the text tells us that Jesus drank wine at the wedding (not even the wine He miraculously provided). So there is no proof to support that Jesus drank it. (He may have, and this may not be an essential point either way, but it is simply not provable.)
2) The text clearly indicates that Jesus made grape juice by miracle--from pure water.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/04/10 12:34 AM

Then again, Jesus told His disiples at the passover before His death; "I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom." It would be pointless to tell someone one will cease to do something one has never done. And even more strange for such a statement to be recorded.
Posted By: JCS

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/04/10 01:26 AM

I like that quote, "I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom."

I've never heard of anyone in the present day ever refer to drinking fermented wine as drinking from the "fruit of the vine". Chemicaly, fermented wine is significanty different from the juice directly sourced from grapes.

I think vaster has evidenced an execellent proof.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/04/10 02:49 PM

Originally Posted By: västergötland
Then again, Jesus told His disiples at the passover before His death; "I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom." It would be pointless to tell someone one will cease to do something one has never done. And even more strange for such a statement to be recorded.

Vaster,

That is true. However, I did not say Jesus never drank grape juice. That He would have chosen not to drink fermented wine is evident in His refusal to drink similar substances on the cross.

The story in John chapter 2 makes clear that Jesus provided the freshest and best quality juice to be had at the wedding. In order to have ample quantities, the wedding had doubtless served some of the fermented variety prior. This, however, is the kind that Jesus would not have been drinking, and I find no evidence in that text that He did drink any of the wine at the wedding.

Where we see Jesus drinking wine is at the last supper. Grape juice. It would make no sense for Him to represent His blood via alcohol. He was and is pure. He is the source of life, not the emblem of death. During the Passover, when the children of Israel ate the lamb's flesh, representing Jesus just as the bread at the communion service does, they were asked not to even have any yeast inside their homes for the entire week. The bread of communion is also unleavened. The leaven represented sin. It is also used to brew alcoholic beverages. This is why we speak of "Brewer's yeast." Thus, God instructed them to remove all such representations of sin from this holy service.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/04/10 05:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: västergötland
Then again, Jesus told His disiples at the passover before His death; "I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom." It would be pointless to tell someone one will cease to do something one has never done. And even more strange for such a statement to be recorded.

Vaster,

That is true. However, I did not say Jesus never drank grape juice. That He would have chosen not to drink fermented wine is evident in His refusal to drink similar substances on the cross.
What happened on the cross really isn't good proof of this since it was after Jesus had already stated He would not drink wine again until together with us in the Kingdom.
Quote:

The story in John chapter 2 makes clear that Jesus provided the freshest and best quality juice to be had at the wedding. In order to have ample quantities, the wedding had doubtless served some of the fermented variety prior. This, however, is the kind that Jesus would not have been drinking, and I find no evidence in that text that He did drink any of the wine at the wedding.
Actually, what the text says is: "And he said to him, “Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!" The comment is on the quality of the wine. It does not say nor suggest that it would be different from the previous wine in any other regard than being of a higher quality. (Other than its origins then.) It is true that the text does not say that Jesus drank anything, nor that He ate anything. It also does not say that He insulted the host couple. As I think you are more aware than I, in many cultures it is insulting to be invited to a table and not eat anything. Also, avoiding to be captain obvious, you wouldn't write that someone ate food and drank wine at a wedding feast (unless you were writing a novel or movie script maybe). Not eating or drinking at a wedding party would be quite unusual and unexpected and would therefore be more likely commented upon.
Quote:

Where we see Jesus drinking wine is at the last supper. Grape juice. It would make no sense for Him to represent His blood via alcohol. He was and is pure. He is the source of life, not the emblem of death. During the Passover, when the children of Israel ate the lamb's flesh, representing Jesus just as the bread at the communion service does, they were asked not to even have any yeast inside their homes for the entire week. The bread of communion is also unleavened. The leaven represented sin. It is also used to brew alcoholic beverages. This is why we speak of "Brewer's yeast." Thus, God instructed them to remove all such representations of sin from this holy service.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
We see Jesus partaking the passover table. So, what would appear on a first century passover table? Wine or grape juice? Again, there is no reason to believe the table of Jesus and His disciples stood out from the ordinary in any other way than what the gospel authors mention.
Posted By: JCS

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/04/10 05:42 PM

vaster, why are you trying to push that Christ advocates drinking alcohol? Do you drink such things and why or why not?
Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/04/10 06:16 PM

If I am pushing something, Id like to think it is honesty towards the text.
Posted By: JCS

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/04/10 07:00 PM

Still didn't anwer my question.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/04/10 07:51 PM

Originally Posted By: västergötland
It is true that the text does not say that Jesus drank anything, nor that He ate anything. It also does not say that He insulted the host couple. As I think you are more aware than I, in many cultures it is insulting to be invited to a table and not eat anything. Also, avoiding to be captain obvious, you wouldn't write that someone ate food and drank wine at a wedding feast (unless you were writing a novel or movie script maybe). Not eating or drinking at a wedding party would be quite unusual and unexpected and would therefore be more likely commented upon.

Regarding your point about Jesus on the cross, point taken. Regarding the above statement, I will differ in terms of the cultural aspect.

Asian culture is still very similar to that of the Bible. Women are bought with a dowry, people bow to each other in greeting, etc. Oftentimes weddings here will last for several days to a week. But one thing astonished me when I attended my first wedding here in Taiwan. The bride and groom did not even sit together at the reception! Furthermore, they each seemed quite occupied whilst everyone was eating. No one seemed to care who ate or did not eat--it was a free-for-all. Perhaps not every wedding is like this. I've only attended a couple here. But I can assure you that the bride and groom would have been oblivious to the status of their guests' eating habits during the reception at both of them. There was no one obligating anyone to eat or not eat. No one seemed to care. True, most were filling their faces rather well. But I think if Jesus were at such a banquet, He could easily eat selectively without any danger of drawing attention to himself or of offending anyone.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/04/10 08:59 PM

Originally Posted By: JCS
vaster, why are you trying to push that Christ advocates drinking alcohol? Do you drink such things and why or why not?

Because it tastes good and appetite should a general guideline for my behavior, right?

I wouldn't know as I've never consumed alcohol knowingly other than a few times in cough syrup when I was too young to know better.
Posted By: kland

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/04/10 09:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
But I think if Jesus were at such a banquet, He could easily eat selectively without any danger of drawing attention to himself or of offending anyone.
Why is it important to take the approach that Jesus didn't eat or drink at the feast?

Now if one says, "good wine" means high octane, then it would be necessary. That is, the host served the cheap near beer at the beginning and then pulled out the 180 proof stuff at the end.

Another approach is that the host used the cheap, about to go bad (ferment), grape juice that had been setting around from last year and then pulled out the freshly squeezed stuff at the end.

Depends upon what "good wine" means.

However, can anyone imagine Jesus producing rotted, fermented stuff containing a poison to humans which has no benefit to anyone for consumption?



A better place to start for support of alcoholic choices is where it says to use tithe money to buy strong drink.
Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/04/10 09:24 PM

Originally Posted By: JCS
Still didn't anwer my question.
I answered your question by pointing out that it was without merit.
Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/04/10 09:30 PM

kland,

The answer is probably that it is easier to argue when the drink is unspecified than it is when it is specified in the wrong direction. smile
Posted By: JCS

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/04/10 10:37 PM

If I were dealing with someone trying use scripture to support the consumption of alcohol I'd explain how the effect of a hangover on the brain is indistinguishable from a seizure and how alcohol permanently damages the brain. I would then ask them where in scripture it advises man to destroy their own mind on a daily basis.
Posted By: Suzanne

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/05/10 02:35 AM

ALCOHOL

Question: Did not Jesus and Paul in the Bible endorse the drinking of wine?

Answer: Let Inspiration speak: "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Proverbs 20:1.

"Who hath woe" who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder." Proverbs 23:29-32.

"The Bible nowhere teaches the use of intoxicating wine, either as a beveraage or as a symbol of the blood of Christ. --Ellen White, Healthful Living, 113.

"The wine created by Christ at this time (the marriage in Cana of Galilee), was the best wine those present had ever tasted. But it was entirely free from all fermentation. Christ Himself had forbidden the use of fermented drink, saying: 'Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations; and that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; and that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes, which the Lord hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.' Leviticus 10:9-11.

"Fermented liquor confuses the senses and perverts the powers of the being. God is dishonored when men have not sufficient respect for themselves to practise strict temperance. Fermented wine is not a natural production. The Lord never made it, and with its production He has nothing to do. Paul advised Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake and often infirmities, but he meant the unfermented juice of the grape. He did not advise Timothy to take what the Lord had prohibited." --Ellen White, Signs of the Times, Sept. 6, 1899.

"Some who claim to be Christians feel at liberty to use intoxiating drink, and in this particular they claim to be in harmony with Christ. But Christ did not set the example they claim to imitate. Be assured that He did not make intoxicating wine on the occasion of His first miracle. He gave to those present a drink which it is safe to give to all humanity--the pure juice of the grape. Christ never placed a glass of fermented liquor to His lips or to the lips of His disciples. Drunkenness was rare in Palestine, but Christ looked down the ages, and saw in every generation what the use of wine would do for the users, therefore at this feast He set a right example." Ibid.

"The wine which Christ provided for the feast, (at Cana) and that which He gave to the disciples as a symbol of His own blood, was the pure juice of the grape. To this the prophet Isaiah refers when he speaks of the new wine 'in the clusters,' and says, 'Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it' " Isa. 65:8. --Ellen White, Desire of Ages, p. 149.

"A single glass of wine may open the door of temptation which will lead to habits of drunkenness." --Testimonies, Vol. 4:578.

"When temperance is presented as a part of the gospel, many will see their need of reform. They will see the evil of intoxicating liquors and that total adstinence is the only platform on which God's people can conscientiously stand." Testimonies, Vol. 7:75.

"True temperance teaches us to dispense entirely with everything hurtful and to use judiciously that which is healthful." --Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 562.

Comment: Brothers and sisters, Inspiration has spoken!

Suzanne
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/05/10 02:42 AM

Some folks have not read the last chapter in Proverbs. They also may not have read Deuteronomy 14. On this point, I see a contradiction between Mrs. White and the Bible. I do not wish to see the contradiction, but it is there, and I have never gotten a good explanation for it from anyone.

In Deuteronomy 14, the word used is "shekar" which was clearly alcoholic. So be advised, it was not an error in translation.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Suzanne

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/05/10 03:23 AM

More on Alcohol

The World Health Organization issued a tough warning noting the dangers of alcohol: "It is insufficient and unwise merely to promote the concept of moderate drinking for health reasons." This is in reply to reports that a drink or two a day may deter certain types of diseases. Rather than advancing health, the report said, alcohol actually causes a plethora of social and medical problems, including cancers, accidents, family problems, violence and crime.

Other warning signals:

* Alcohol is addictive. One in 7 who drink will develop alcoholism. Small amounts can lead to dependence.

* Researchers from Harvard Medical School examined the effects of drinking on all causes of death in 22,071 male doctors. They found an increase in cancer in those who had more than one drink a day. Most of the increase was in throat, gastric, urinary tract and brain cancer.

* Other studies link even small amounts of alcohol with hypertension, cancer of the digestive tract, oral cavity, larynx, pharynx, esophagus, pancreas, stomach, urinary tract, colon and rectum. Medical scientists are also finding adverse effects of alcohol on the bone marrow, the reproductive system, the immune system, dental work, nutrition and sleep. --Los Angeles Times, July 7, 1988.

* Urethane, a compound naturally present in trace amounts in wine, primarily as a result of fermentation has been shown to be a carcinogen (cancer causing). In addition lead (a poison) can leach into wine from lead crystal decanters and glasses and the lead-foil caps that cover the necks of many bottles of "fine" wine. Sulfites (sulfur compounds) added to most wines to kill microbes that cause spoilage, can cause severe allergenic effects in asthmatics and others. Asbestos fibers have been found in beer, wine, sherry and vermouth. The U.S. government allows wine makers to add over 80 additives that aid in fermenting, clarifying, preserving and stabilizing color and taste. Indeed, modern alcoholic beverages have been called chemicalized, sugared rotgut!

* Even the lowest measurable level of alcohol affects perception, information processing, learning, memory, and judgment. --Alcohol & Health, U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Service.

* A study by the Harvard School of Public health showed a 50% increase in the risk of breast cancer among women who drink as little as one 8-ounce glass of wine each day, and a 70% increase among those who had 2 glasses. Over 30 studies link risk of breast cancer with moderate intake of alcohol. --Los Angeles Times, July 27, 1993.

* Women appear to be twice as vulnerable as men to biomedical problems associated with alcohol. Women have less fluid in their bodies to dilute alcohol--because they have more fat in relation to body size than men, and fat contains less water than muscle.

* Alcohol can interact adversely with more than 100 medications, with effects ranging from simple nausea to sudden death.

* One drink is too many. The smallest amount of alcohol can do permanent damage to the liver according to Dr. Marshall Orloff, of the University of California at San Diego: "When a person consumes alcohol, even a little bit, it passes through the liver and in every case liver cells are damaged. The more the drinking the greater the damage."

* Prof. Melvin H. Knisely of the Medical University of South Carolina, an eminent research scientist, has documented the fact that even one drink kills brain cells, which are irreplaceable. --Booze, Bucks, Bamboozle, and You, R.J. McLennan.

* Even small amounts affect the frontal lobes of the brain, which are many times more susceptible to alcohol than any other body cells, This area controls judgment, conscience, imitation and self-control. Most importantly, the frontal lobes and the cortex of the brain are the instrumentalities through which the Spirit of God speaks to the soul of man. --Tract: The Bible and the Use of the Word Wine.

* Health and looks vanish fast with even moderate drinking. Liquor causes premature aging. It doesn't take much alcohol to distort a lovely fresh appearance, exaggerate fine lines around the eyes and mouth, slacken facial muscles, so the face takes on a drooping downward look instead of an upward one. And alcohol is one of the most fattenin things a man or woman can put into the system.

* Paul's advice to Timothy, to drink a little unfermented grape juice for his many infirmities is indeed apropos. Grapes are used throughout the world for their curative effects and have been called the "queen of fruits" because of their great internal body cleansing properties. Grape juice is easily assimilated and is indicated in cases of constipation, gout, rheumatism, skin, kidney and liver complains=ts. Grape juice is alkalinizing to the blood and quite soothing to the nervous system. Concord grape juice is high in iron; an excellent blood builder and energy booster. --Foods That Heal, Bernard Jensen.

By eating lots of fruits and vegetables, we will get an adequate amount of protective compounds safely and generously, without having to rely on the many questionable and dangerous factors found in red wine and other forms of alcohol. We must in the fear of the Lord, be very careful and not allow the deceptive powers of Satan to trap us into cosuming something condemned by the Bible, the Spirit of Prophecy, and science.

Suzanne

Posted By: JCS

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/05/10 03:23 AM

I'm curious, what is your conclusion based on this find GC?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/05/10 05:02 AM

Originally Posted By: JCS
I'm curious, what is your conclusion based on this find GC?
"Find?"

It's not a "find." At least not to me. We even discussed this in one my college theology classes. There were no conclusions. I have no answer. It is a complete mystery. I hear lots of different "explanations," but none based on substantiable facts. For Deut. 14, some say that the word "shekar" was a scribal error (i.e. an introduction to the text, and not authored by Moses). This basically means we pick and choose which words we accept in the Bible. I have a hard time with doing that, as it opens the floodgates to many other "pick your own doctrine" scenarios. Some others try to say "shekar" is just the same as the Greek word for wine...meaning it could also apply to grape juice. But the context clearly shows this view to be in error, and a cursory comparison to other passages shows the usage of the word in speaking of alcohol. Some say God allowed certain things back then which are no longer allowed. We have grown in truth. There are many explanations. None has yet satisfied me completely. As I said, I need something that is supportable by more than just opinion--including my own opinion.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: JCS

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/05/10 08:29 AM

Hmm... Very interesting indeed. Almost like as if God let's us see what we want to see or to force us to look for a common principle of truth in things even when it isn't obvious.
Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/05/10 10:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Suzanne
ALCOHOL

Question: Did not Jesus and Paul in the Bible endorse the drinking of wine?

Answer: Let Inspiration speak: "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Proverbs 20:1.

"Who hath woe" who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder." Proverbs 23:29-32.

"The Bible nowhere teaches the use of intoxicating wine, either as a beveraage or as a symbol of the blood of Christ. --Ellen White, Healthful Living, 113.

"The wine created by Christ at this time (the marriage in Cana of Galilee), was the best wine those present had ever tasted. But it was entirely free from all fermentation. Christ Himself had forbidden the use of fermented drink, saying: 'Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations; and that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; and that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes, which the Lord hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.' Leviticus 10:9-11.

"Fermented liquor confuses the senses and perverts the powers of the being. God is dishonored when men have not sufficient respect for themselves to practise strict temperance. Fermented wine is not a natural production. The Lord never made it, and with its production He has nothing to do. Paul advised Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake and often infirmities, but he meant the unfermented juice of the grape. He did not advise Timothy to take what the Lord had prohibited." --Ellen White, Signs of the Times, Sept. 6, 1899.

"Some who claim to be Christians feel at liberty to use intoxiating drink, and in this particular they claim to be in harmony with Christ. But Christ did not set the example they claim to imitate. Be assured that He did not make intoxicating wine on the occasion of His first miracle. He gave to those present a drink which it is safe to give to all humanity--the pure juice of the grape. Christ never placed a glass of fermented liquor to His lips or to the lips of His disciples. Drunkenness was rare in Palestine, but Christ looked down the ages, and saw in every generation what the use of wine would do for the users, therefore at this feast He set a right example." Ibid.

"The wine which Christ provided for the feast, (at Cana) and that which He gave to the disciples as a symbol of His own blood, was the pure juice of the grape. To this the prophet Isaiah refers when he speaks of the new wine 'in the clusters,' and says, 'Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it' " Isa. 65:8. --Ellen White, Desire of Ages, p. 149.

"A single glass of wine may open the door of temptation which will lead to habits of drunkenness." --Testimonies, Vol. 4:578.

"When temperance is presented as a part of the gospel, many will see their need of reform. They will see the evil of intoxicating liquors and that total adstinence is the only platform on which God's people can conscientiously stand." Testimonies, Vol. 7:75.

"True temperance teaches us to dispense entirely with everything hurtful and to use judiciously that which is healthful." --Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 562.

Comment: Brothers and sisters, Inspiration has spoken!

Suzanne
Not to question the points made in the post, Id still point out that the answer seem disconnected from the question. Answering a question concerning what Jesus and Paul wrote, I would expect, would quote what they said and go from there. Quoting commentary is just not the same thing. If the question had been "Does Ellen White endorse the drinking of wine?", the answer would have been a closer fit.
Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/05/10 10:37 AM

Originally Posted By: JCS
Hmm... Very interesting indeed. Almost like as if God let's us see what we want to see or to force us to look for a common principle of truth in things even when it isn't obvious.
You mean like: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."?
Posted By: kland

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/05/10 06:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
But the context clearly shows this view to be in error, and a cursory comparison to other passages shows the usage of the word in speaking of alcohol.
I agree. It uses wine which could be alcoholic, then it emphasizes strong drink leaving no room for doubt. We should take it for what it says. However, I don't see it contradicting what Ellen White says. The Bible also speaks about divorce, multiple wives, slaves, etc. and that doesn't mean one should participate in those activities either.

But, the question still is, why did it say to buy strong drink? A similar question would be, why did it say to buy whatever your heart desires / covets / lusts after? Does that mean we should let our appetite rule? Does that mean we should covet and lust after the flesh pots of Egypt?

I think a fuller study would be in order.


(GC, think there's a possibility there is something similarly going on here related to who killed Saul?)
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/05/10 07:03 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
However, I don't see it contradicting what Ellen White says.


How do you interpret this quote which Suzanne provided? It was this one specifically that I have difficulty reconciling.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
"The Bible nowhere teaches the use of intoxicating wine, either as a beverage or as a symbol of the blood of Christ." --Ellen White, Healthful Living, 113.


To me, both Proverbs 31 and Deuteronomy 14 are examples of the Bible teaching the use of alcohol, i.e. "intoxicating wine." True, the Bible does not say it is "good." But it does certainly permit its use. In Deuteronomy, the one quoted is God.

No, I don't think this has anything to do with Saul. It has more to do with David and his plural wives. Wine in the Bible is one of the seven "grey areas." The others are polygamy, meat eating, killing (as in war or capital punishment), jewelry, divorce, and accumulating wealth (being rich). None of these is expressly condemned as a sin in the Bible. Yet none of them is painted as "good" either. Several of them are actually commanded by God (capital punishment in certain cases, polygamy in certain cases, meat eating in certain cases, and in Deuteronomy, wine and strong drink in the tithe case).

Really, it only takes one example of a "grey-area sin" to prove that there are some things in the Bible which must be accepted against all logic. A clear case is that of eating meat. Today, Mrs. White's writings have nearly come out and stated that it is sinful to subsist on a flesh diet. Yet Jesus ate fish, and Jesus commanded the Israelites to eat the Passover lamb. Here again, Mrs. White is clear on the issue of wine, yet the Bible is much less clear on the same topic.

The best explanation I know of is the simple concept that "truth is progressive." But that still does not account for the logical discrepancy which exists between God winking at their ignorance and commanding that which would later be forbidden--especially in light of Malachi 3:6.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 05/07/10 03:43 PM

Could Ellen White say that the Bible nowhere teaches that it's acceptable to own slaves but yet,

Quote:
'And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have-from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves.
But either way, do you think we should own slaves, divorce, kill our enemies, etc., etc. and yet it appears in the Bible? You missed my point about Saul, but I was trying to make a comparison that maybe somewhere in the Bible is something which isn't what it appears. You say grey area. I say not. But as Tom has tried his best in the past, if you are going to participate in such sins, there is a way you can participate and still reduce the harm done. It would be best not to, but if you are so stubborn you are going to do it anyway, here is the best way. Perhaps at some point, you will turn back to God and follow His ideal will. Some did, most didn't.

As far as eating meat, Ellen White said there is soon coming a time to do away with all meat eating. Could that mean that in the distant past was not the time, and that "soon" surely must have come more than 100 years ago?
Posted By: Suzanne

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 09/06/10 10:02 PM

Alcohol Lowers Testosterone, Increase Estrogen

If you're a guy and you're STILL unsure whether to reduce or eliminate alcohol from your diet, here's yet another fact for you to ponder: alcohol lowers testosterone and increases estrogen, often bringing about gynecomastria (male breast enlargement) due to increased conversion of testosterone and other aromatizable androgens to estrogen.

Furthermore, it also can lead to testicular atrophy, low sperm count, and difficulty in performing sexually via erectile dysfunction, or ED. Ask any guy and he'll tell you that the LAST thing he wants is shrunken testicles or difficulty getting an erection.

What's even worse, if you work out with weights to feel and look stronger you should be aware that alcohol is preventing you from making as much progress as you should. It does this by destroying muscle gains in several ways, including lowering testosterone, dehydration, preventing vitamin absorption, and much more.
The good news in all this is that from the very second you stop drinking alcohol you begin to heal. Your body is truly a miracle of design, able to heal the damage that alcohol caused it, but, you have to stop now to have the best chance of getting back the healthy you.

Don't let alcohol destroy you for one more second. Stop drinking now, and get a fresh start at a new life. www.stopdrinkingalcohol.com/alcohol-lowers-testosteone.html

Suzanne


Posted By: Tom

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 09/07/10 10:19 AM

Quote:
Hmm... Very interesting indeed. Almost like as if God let's us see what we want to see...


Yes, almost like that.
Posted By: Tom

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 09/07/10 10:25 AM

Originally Posted By: GC
How do you interpret this quote which Suzanne provided? It was this one specifically that I have difficulty reconciling.

"The Bible nowhere teaches the use of intoxicating wine, either as a beverage or as a symbol of the blood of Christ." --Ellen White, Healthful Living, 113.

To me, both Proverbs 31 and Deuteronomy 14 are examples of the Bible teaching the use of alcohol, i.e. "intoxicating wine." True, the Bible does not say it is "good." But it does certainly permit its use. In Deuteronomy, the one quoted is God.


I think it's simply a matter of discerning what EGW was really wishing to say, and not try to have her say something she didn't intend to say. God has often permitted certain activities, and given rules about such things. But that doesn't mean it would be wrong for us to say, "Nowhere does the Bible teach the use of 'X'" provided we understand this to mean "Nowhere does the Bible teach us we should do 'X'" as opposed to "Nowhere does the Bible mention 'X'" or "Nowhere does the Bible give rules in regards to 'X'"

What she's really wanting to communicate, IMO, is that God, nowhere in Scripture, was presenting His will that X should be done.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 09/08/10 09:13 PM

I agree. Both the Bible and the SOP make it clear drinking alcohol must be avoided at all cost.
Posted By: Suzanne

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 09/10/10 01:59 AM

This is from Time, August 2,2010.

Stroke, Straight Up?

Just one alcoholic drink can double the risk of stroke during the hour after it's consumed, a new stuey found. Beer, wine or liquor can make blood platelets stickier and raise blood pressure, which may promote the clots that cause stroke.

Suzanne



Posted By: Suzanne

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 01/16/12 11:03 PM

Health benefits of red wine purely commercial, new study says- 1-14-12

Scientists from the University of Connecticut stated that a number of studies that previously discovered a positive effect from the consumption of red wines, turned out to be false.

About five years ago, experts led by Dr. Dipak K. Das confidently declared that they discovered the benefit of antioxidants, namely resveratrol, in red wine, Newsmax.com.ua said. As stated by the researchers, the component contributed to decelerating the process of aging.

Later came an anonymous report in which Dr. Das and other laboratory staff were accused of fraud. The report also enumerated 146 facts of data fudging. In this regard, a formal investigation began in 2008. It was revealed that Dr. Das had received $890,000 of grants for the research, reports Likar.info. The study thus proved to be a commercial advertisement rather than a scientific research.

Simultaneously, the university health center, which employs "Dr. Red Wine", has recently refused to accept another grant from the federal government. The grant was going to be provided to the defamed scientist for his further "scientific" research on the important subject.

In addition, all other earnings from various external sources for "Dr. Red Wine" were frozen. To crown it all, the expert will most likely be fired from the Health Center at the University of Connecticut.


http://english.pravda.ru/news/science/13-01-2012/120226-
red_wine-0/

Posted from another web site.

Suzanne
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 01/23/12 09:53 PM

Interesting information.

So there aren't any health benefits whatsoever?
Posted By: APL

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 01/24/12 01:15 AM

No Alcohol Intake Safe in Pregnancy

Any alcohol consumption during pregnancy -- especially during the second half of the first trimester -- puts the newborn at risk for fetal alcohol syndrome (FAS), results of a study showed.
...
"Based on our findings, there is no safe threshold for alcohol consumption during pregnancy with respect to selected alcohol-related physical features," the authors concluded. "Women who are of childbearing age and who are contemplating or at risk for becoming pregnant should be encouraged to avoid drinking, and women who are pregnant should abstain from alcohol throughout the pregnancy."

Primary source: Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Rsearch
Source reference:
Feldmen HS, et al "Parental alcohol exposure pattern and alcohol-related birth defects and growth deficiencies: A prospective study" Alcohol Clin Exp Res 2012; DOI: 10.111/j.1530-0277.2011.01664.x.
Posted By: kland

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 01/24/12 09:50 PM

Suppose there were health benefits to red wine. Removing the alcohol would not affect them. However, if you required the removal of the alcohol, you can bet there would be an outcry from those claiming there were benefits!
Posted By: Tom

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 01/25/12 04:23 PM

Quote:
Suppose there were health benefits to red wine. Removing the alcohol would not affect them. However, if you required the removal of the alcohol, you can bet there would be an outcry from those claiming there were benefits!


Many people enjoy wine because of the taste. If you could preserve the taste while removing the alcohol content, there would certainly be a market for that (just like there's a market for decaffeinated coffee or diet coke).
Posted By: kland

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 01/25/12 08:06 PM

I guess that surprises me. Maybe it's the only people I know promoting "health benefits" wink Except I think they are implying beer, too.
Posted By: Suzanne

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 03/26/12 09:35 PM

A tragic and stunning case of scientific fraud in studies on red wine and resveratrol

by Tony Isaacs

(NaturalNews) In yet another stunning example of scientific research fraud, the University of Connecticut leveled charges of widespread scientific fraud against a prolific researcher earlier this year. The university identified the researcher as Dr. Dipak K. Das, a director of the university's Cardiovascular Research Center (CRC) and a professor in the Department of Surgery, whose work reported on the health benefits of resveratrol and red wine.

The University of Connecticut identified instances of fraud in 26 suspect articles published in 11 journals and sent a copy of an investigative report it conducted to editors of the journals. The university said that it was freezing Dr. Das' research and returning two new grants totaling $890,000.

Dr. Das has been a prolific research publisher, with several hundred articles published, including 117 articles on resveratrol. Though leading researchers in the field do not consider Dr. Das a major research figure, there is little doubt that his work has been influential. According to Thomson Scientific's Web of Knowledge, 30 of his papers have been cited more than 100 times, including one cited 349 times and another cited 230 times.

Resveratrol is a type of natural phenol produced by several plants when under attack by pathogens such as bacteria or fungi. It is also found in abundance in the skin of red grapes and in other fruits. However, red wine actually contains relatively little of it. Resveratrol has been produced by chemical and biotechnological synthesis. Nutritional resveratrol supplements are derived primarily from Japanese knotweed.

The scientific fraud and grant money were all too easy

Rather than negatively reflecting on resveratrol, the significance of the case seems more to reflect on how easy it is for researchers to doctor and invent data to produce fraudulent results and the general system of apportioning research money. Though researchers often complain that federal grants are increasingly hard to get even for high-quality research, money seemed to have flowed freely to Dr. Das.

Though the reported fraud does not invalidate other studies on the health benefits of resveratrol, it nevertheless gives an unwarranted black eye to a promising compound which other studies have indicated is anti-inflammatory, cardio-protective, prevents cancer, increases energy, lowers blood sugar and extends life.

The investigation of Dr. Das's work began in January 2009, two weeks after an anonymous allegation was made to the university about research irregularities in his laboratory. A special review board produced a 60,000-page report thatwas subsequently forwarded to the Office of Research Integrity, a federal agency that investigates fraud by researchers who receive government grants.

The review board report stated that as head of the lab and senior author of all but one of the suspect articles, Dr. Das "bears principal responsibility for the fabrication and/or falsification." Furthermore, the evidence "strongly suggests" that Dr. Das was directly involved in faking images for publication and that some of the evidence was found on his personal computer.

According to the report summary, Dr. Das's published research articles were found to contain 145 instances of fabrication and falsification of data. Many involved cutting and pasting photographic images from a type of research record known as a western blot. In the past, western blots have often been subject to manipulations.

The organization Retraction Watch reported that Dr. Das has had ties with supplement companies who sell products related to his research. One company sold a resveratrol supplement and has widely promoted Dr. Das work, including using Dr. Das in a widely broadcast infomercial, where he touts resveratrol as "the new aspirin". Another company used Dr. Das to help commercialize a substance in grape skins called proanthocyanidin.

Sources included:

http://www.nytimes.com
http://retractionwatch.wordpress.com
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/756865
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resveratrol

Comment: This is repitition of another article but I feel the imformation is important enough to be repeated!

Suzanne




Posted By: kland

Re: Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? - 03/27/12 07:00 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipak_K._Das
Quote:
On January 11, 2012 the University of Connecticut Health Center announced that a review board has found Das guilty of 145 counts of fabrication or falsification of data.
Photo of him at http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-5...ake-data-uconn/

Quote:
Dr. Das has had ties with supplement companies who sell products related to his research.
Easy money, help the doc out. Ooops. Now their products are tainted and was it worth it? On to the next product. But how often until supplements as a whole get a bad rap?

Quote:
Nutritional resveratrol supplements are derived primarily from Japanese knotweed.
Hey, can we make beer out of knotweed?
Or fry it, or extract it, or.....anything but eat it and a variety of other fruits, vegetables, nuts, and grains prepared in a simple manner?
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