Unfortunately, I am not able to practice the plant based diet I had when I was living in the USA. I am getting a lot closer to it though.

It is proposed that vitamin B-12 only comes from flesh food. Yet, on 3ABN with Brother MacIntosh, a doctor said the bacteria needed to make vitamin B-12 is in our own mouths and colon. He said the issue is bacteria, not plant based or meat based.

This would suggest to me that our own bodies can make vitamin B-12.

Does anyone have any more information on this issue?

This has been discussed here before. There is a lot of information, as well as misinformation, about vitamin B12 floating around.

Dr. MacIntosh is correct that the vitamin may be produced to a limited extent in the mouth, and to a much greater extent in the colon. However, if he has tried to lead people to believe that the B12 produced in the colon is of any value to the individual, he has been deceptive. Vitamin B12 is not absorbed to any degree in the colon. It is absorbed in the small intestine. So by the time bacteria of the colon produce their B12, it is too far along the GI track to be of any use.

B12 is perhaps the largest nutrient (molecule size) that the body requires. It is so large that even the small intestine will not absorb it naturally. It will not fit through the small pores in the intestinal wall. It requires intrinsic factor for it to be absorbed. Intrinsic factor basically taps the lining of the intestine and "persuades" the intestine to open a larger hole to admit the B12 molecule. Once the B12 has then passed into the bloodstream, the hole must be reclosed, lest bacteria and whatnot all else pass through as well.

Because of the need for intrinsic factor, even if one takes B12 by mouth (supplement form), or has oral bacteria making it, it may not be absorbed. Meat eaters, by the same token, can become very deficient in B12. Unfortunately, intrinsic factor is not well-studied. There is limited information about it, more limited than on the B12 itself. One factor, however, is stomach acid. Those who are under a lot of stress make less stomach acid, as well as older people in general. A weakened stomach leads to a reduction in intrinsic factor.

I took IM shots of cyanocobalamin, one shot a week, during a year of studies at a self-supporting school with an entirely vegan diet. I still became deficient. For myself, I must remain lacto-ovo vegetarian, especially in this part of the world where circumstances are different from those in more prosperous countries.

Mrs. White said much about the benefits of eggs. She never called it a sin to eat them, though she stipulated that they should be from healthy hens. Likewise, her statement about the most healthful diet includes milk and cream. God has given us these instructions for our benefit.

Dr. Mercola has some of the better research on questions like this, and the website veganhealth.org also has some things (though they are still biased toward veganism and do not always show the full balance of the research).

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Just an FYI - "Dr. MacIntosh" is Don MacIntosh, RN, MDiv.

And another FYI - you don't get Intrinsic factor from eggs.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I did want to mention that the doctor on 3ABN said any B-12 in the colon was useless. But, he did seem to say that oral B-12 was available, although I don't remember him mentioning "intrinsic factor".

I have never been completely vegan myself, although I like to be close to that. Dairy and eggs are usually good for me though. The Bible does mention "milk and honey".

But, I have really become more interested in the ability of the body to heal itself and just how dependable the body is at healing itself.

I see Suzanne has a lot of threads here and I am interested in learning more.

The oral B12 is likely far too little for those who brush their teeth. The only hope I've seen of vegans obtaining sufficient B12 (looking at an entire people group) was based, not on oral bacteria, but on unsanitary eating habits. The people studied would not wash their vegetables carefully, and it was thought that the bacteria from the soil and environs provided above-average levels of B12.

I have never seen a good study supporting an uptake of maintenance-level B12 from oral bacteria alone. To the contrary, most studies point away from such a conclusion.

Many would like to think that the Edenic diet is more saintly on account of being more original. When they discover the Tree of Life, I'll agree with them. Until then, there are some nutrients that the fruit of the Tree of Life may well have had which we now lack. Some of those may be found in additional sources, including vegetables (herb of the field) and certain of the flesh foods. Jesus commanded His people to eat some of these things after the Fall.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

And the Bible does mention fish, cattle, quail, sheep, goats, etc.

But Ellen White does say that those among the 144,000 will not be eating eggs, milk, or cream.

Green, why does "herb of the field" mean "vegetable" to you?

Really? Where?



What do you call such things as potatoes, carrots, broccoli, green beans, onions, tomatoes, peppers, eggplants, squash, cucumbers, lettuce, cabbage, turnips, parsnips, sweet potatoes, celery, spinach, chives, and other such "produce," often called "truck vegetables" that one might grow in his or her garden?

To most everyone, they are vegetables--fit for a vegetable salad, a vegetable soup/stew, etc. A few excerpts from Mrs. White show how she classed some of these foods as "vegetables" as well.



Of course, vitamin B-12 does not come from vegetables. But a little milk or cream helps to form the best diet, according to Mrs. White. There's probably a reason she said so.

The Bible has nothing against milk or honey--these were spoken of in glowing terms with respect to the land of Canaan. They are both animal products. But the Bible tells us such things as "my son, eat honey, for it is sweet"! Jesus multiplied fish by the thousands to feed people. If He had so desired, He could have produced manna instead. Evidently, then, eating some fish, some milk, or some honey, is not a sin--which might surprise some Adventists these days. Ellen White adds eggs to the acceptables list.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I would agree. For most of them. What do you call strawberries, raspberries, blackberries, watermelon, cantaloupe and other such "produce," that one might grow in his or her garden?


But my real question is, why does "herb of the field" mean "vegetable" to you?

Once again, Vitamin B12 does not come from vegetables. (HINT: We are off-topic.) But as you are obsessed with why I consider the "herb of the field" to be vegetables, consider the following evidence. First, the original diet, as prescribed in the Bible; then the new diet given after sin.

Original diet:



Above, Mrs. White only mentions the fruits, grains, and nuts as part of the "simple diet," and appears to omit the nuts in speaking of the original diet, though she had already mentioned them and probably was not meaning to be exhaustive again.

Diet after the Fall (and before the Flood):


So, after sin, God added vegetables to our diet. Mrs. White obviously read the "herb of the field" to mean vegetables. I suppose I could ask you why you do not? or do you also read it the same way?

Where does the "herb of the field" grow? Certainly not in an orchard, grove, or hedgerow bush. It grows where one must "till the soil." No one tills an orchard (usually). A field must be tilled, and requires a bit more "sweat of the brow" to cause it to produce a harvest. Trees yield their fruit year after year with very little maintenance.

I suppose you could include strawberries as "of the field." They're not my favorite anyhow.

Now, for the B-12, maybe you need to upgrade your diet and add "bacteria of the field," and/or "bacteria of the soil."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Choose the Best Foods.--In order to know what are the best foods, we must study God's original plan for man's diet. He who created man and who understands his needs appointed Adam his food. . . . Grains, fruits, nuts, and vegetables constitute the diet chosen for us by our Creator. {CG 380.1}

649. Vegetables, fruits, and grains should compose our diet. Not an ounce of flesh meat should enter our stomachs. The eating of flesh is unnatural. We are to return to God's original purpose in the creation of man. {CD 380.2}

Green, it appears you have not cared for an orchard.

When was the "herb of the field" created?

kland,

I have indeed cared for orchards. I have spent hundreds of hours pruning trees of many varieties, including apples, peaches, pears, apricots, cherries, and even ordinary "shade trees" like elms. I'm not sure why you would presume to know about someone you've never met nor asked regarding this. I fail to see how this relates to any of the present discussion. I never said it did not require any labor to grow fruit. I will say I have sweat far less sitting in a tree and pruning its branches than I have sweat shoveling, tilling, planting, and hoeing in a field or garden.

I weeded by hand a 10-acre field in less than a month under a hot sun. I'd prefer the orcharding any day in terms of ease and comfort.

Adam and Eve had work to do before sin, and we will have work to do in heaven. But that work will not be the "sweat of the brow" type of labor which Adam was forced to do after his sin, when the "herb of the field" was added to his diet.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

'nuff sed.

But do you suggest the amount of hours spent or the amount of sweat exuded determine whether something is a vegetable or not?


Again, When was the "herb of the field" created?

By using frozen fruit it is easy to get fruit all year in some areas like here. Fresh organic apples from South America is an option, although they are more expensive.

Most of the vegetables we consume are prepared in a haystack. Occasionally we indulge in a pizza we order on the net where I choose vegetables as ingredients and pick it up hot a block from our place as it is taken out of the oven. A delicious vegeburger is available accross the street in our small town of about 7.000. At 80 we could sell the house and garden in the country and moved into town while we still had the strength to do do so.

Blood tests show that I still have sufficient B12 on a vegetarian diet that has carried me through soon for 82 years.

Do they run greenhouses in Iceland? Seems like there or Greenland I had read about geothermal and greenhouses.

I just got out of a shower. We can take as many hot showers as we want with hot water straight out of the ground. Most of our homes are heated with this kind of hot water that flows freely and it also generates eletricity. We have greenhouses all over the country where flowers, vegetables and fruit is grown all year with electrical light in the winter. We might be able to produce all of the tomatoes used in England in our greenhouses.

Either you haven't raised truck vegetables, or you haven't had much experience with fruit trees. The "hundreds of hours" I've spent on trees happens to have existed with 1) many more acres of trees than I've ever done with a garden; and 2) multiple years of experience, including multiple countries in which this experience was gleaned in orcharding. If I were to put in the same amount of time to care for a vegetable garden, I dare say I could care for but a fraction of the acreage. This may not have come to your mind, for lack of personal experience. Where I have spent hundreds of hours in fruit trees, I would have spent thousands in the vegetable garden for the equivalent amount of produce.

Regardless, none of this has much to do with B-12. I don't even feel that B-12 is the secret to longevity that was in the fruit of the Tree of Life. I believe that fruit has something far more important to our long-term health.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Again, When was the "herb of the field" created?

It looks like I hit upon a key question.

So whenever someone starts spouting that "herb of the field" absolutely means "vegetable", they are silenced by merely asking, when was the "herb of the field" created?

kland,

There comes a point when arguing does no good. Silence does not always mean there is no answer. It may mean there is no reason to sink more pearls in the mire.

Perhaps, however, I'll ask a question in response: When did God create passover and sacrificial lambs?

(Did He command that they be eaten to provide His people a steady source of B-12?)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Actually, the question is: when was the "herb of the field" created?

On day three. Next?

The question is not relevant to this vitamin B-12 discussion.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Ge 1:11-13 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Next: What were we to eat?


(As far as relevancy, you were the one who brought it up)

Vitamin B12: Are You Getting It?

by Jack Norris, Registered Dietitian

Introduction

For the last few months, I was feeling sluggish, had to lie down a couple of times a day, found it difficult to work evenings and to exercise for long periods. Under Michael Klaper, MD's guidance, I was taking protein powder, creatine, testosterone, nystatin, etc., all to no avail. I was taking nutritional yeast every day, so I knew it wasn't B12 deficiency. Then, one day, I came across your B12 article by sheer accident. I wasn't going to read the whole thing, but I glanced through it and was struck by your insistence that none of the usual sources are adequate. I still didn't believe it, but I had some old B12 pills in the fridge, so I popped one. The effect was almost immediate and remarkable. I have been taking them almost every day, my stamina and energy level are up, and I feel middle-aged again instead of a tired old man.

- Alex Hershaft, PhD, President of FARM

Background

Vitamin B12 is a complicated vitamin with a unique absorption mechanism and a number of inactive analogues (molecules that appear to be active B12, but actually are not) that possibly interfere with its function. Vitamin B12 is generally found in all animal foods (except honey). Contrary to the many rumors, there are no reliable, unfortified plant sources of vitamin B12, including tempeh, seaweeds, and organic produce. One of the earliest studies conducted on vegans, from the U.K. in 1955, described significant vitamin B12 deficiency in the vegans with some suffering from nerve damage and dementia. This, as well as many case studies since then of vitamin B12 deficiency in vegans, and a great deal of other evidence detailed here, has led to the overwhelming consensus in the mainstream nutrition community, as well as among vegan health professionals, that vitamin B12 fortified foods or supplements are necessary for the optimal health of vegans, and even vegetarians in many cases. Luckily, vitamin B12 is made by bacteria such that it does not need to be obtained from animal products.

Despite the overwhelming evidence that vegans without a reliable source of vitamin B12 are likely harming their health, some vegan advocates still believe that "plant foods provide all the nutrients necessary for optimal health," and do not address vitamin B12 when promoting the vegan diet. Other advocates acknowledge the need for B12, but only as an afterthought. And still others emphasize that humans need only small amounts of B12 and that it can be stored in the body for years.

While true that, at the time they become vegan, some people have enough B12 stored in their liver to prevent overt B12 deficiency for many years, people often misinterpret this to mean that you only need to consume a tiny amount once every few years. Actually, to build up such stores, it takes years of consuming B12 beyond one's daily needs (unless you are using supplements which can build up stores more quickly). Some people do not have large enough stores of B12 to be relied upon for optimal health even for short periods.

This article is a thorough review of the scientific literature about vitamin B12 and the vegan diet, including every relevant study on vegans and vitamin B12 published since 1980. Vegan advocates who may otherwise not be interested in the details of vitamin B12 are encouraged to read the Recommendations and Can a Natural Diet Require Supplements?

Overt B12 Deficiency

B12 protects the nervous system. Without it, permanent damage can result (e.g., blindness, deafness, dementia). Fatigue, and tingling in the hands or feet, can be early signs of deficiency.

Vitamin B12, like folate (aka folic acid), is needed to help red blood cells divide. In some cases, vegans may get so much folate that even with B12 deficiency, their blood cells continue to divide properly. In other cases, their blood cells will fail to divide properly and they will become fatigued and suffer from macrocytic (aka megaloblastic) anemia.

Mild B12 Deficiency

Homocysteine is a byproduct of protein metabolism. Elevated homocysteine levels are linked with increased risks of heart disease and stroke. From 1999 to 2003, there were many studies comparing the homocysteine levels of vegans and vegetarians who do not supplement their diet with vitamin B12 to those of non-vegetarians (more info). In every study, the vegans or vegetarians had higher homocysteine levels than the meat-eaters and in the range associated with heart disease and stroke.

In contrast, one study compared vegans who supplemented with vitamin B12 (an average of 5.6 mcg/day) and their homocysteine levels were well within the healthy range.

If you have been a typical meat eater for most of your life, your body should have stored enough B12 to prevent overt deficiency for a number of years. However, B12 stores cannot be relied on to keep homocysteine levels in check for very long.

Open Letter from Health Professionals & Vegan Organizations

Other opinions by vegan movement leaders and health professionals on the need for vitamin B12:

What Every Vegan Should Know about Vitamin B12

Table of Contents

1. Vitamin B12 Recommendations
2. Vegan Sources
3. Can a Natural Diet Require Supplements?

Deficiency

4. Overt B12 Deficiency - Nerve Damage and Anemia
5. Mild B12 Deficiency - Cardiovascular Disease | Dementia | Birth Defects | Bone Mineral Density
6. Small Amounts of Animal Products Do Not Cure B12 Deficiency

The B12 Molecule

8. Analogues
9. Digestion, Absorption, and Transport
10. Coenzyme Functions

Measuring

11. Blood B12 Levels: Not Reliable
12. Should I Get My B12 Status Tested?

B12 Status

13. Vegans Infants & Toddlers
    • Vegan Infants & Toddlers with B12 Deficiency
14. Vegan Children & Teenagers
15. Vegan Adults
16. Elderly Vegetarians
17. Raw Foodist Vegans
18. Macrobiotics
19. Lacto-Ovo Vegetarians
20. Individual Cases of Deficiency
21. Immerman - The Exception

Plant & Intestinal Sources

22. Measuring B12: Why the Confusion?
23. B12 in Plant Foods
24. Are Intestinal Bacteria a Reliable Source of B12?
25. B12 and Non-Human Animals

Appendices

1. How Recommendations were Formulated
2. Side Effects of Vitamin B12 Supplements
3. People Over Age 50
4. People Who Should Not Take the Cyanocobalamin Form of B12
5. Smokers and Cyanocobalamin
6. Methylcobalamin & Adenosylcobalamin
7. S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe)
8. Ways to Get B12 Deficiency
9. Elevated Serum B12 and Increased Risk of Disease
10. Conditions That Increase B12 Levels
11. B12-Related Laboratory Values
12. Plant Sources of Folate
13. Figure: Methionine-Homocysteine-Folate-B12 Cycle

Reference: http://veganhealth.org/articles/vitaminb12

Is it true that the human body has more than one way to create Vitamin B-12?

Also, if you wait an hour or more after lunch to brush your teeth, will your body be able to make enough B-12?

The human body can no more make vitamin B12 than it can make vitamin C. In fact, no animal makes vitamin B12 so far as we know. It is only produced by bacteria.

Yeast does not produce it. Because some companies marketing yeast as a good source of B-vitamins add a quantity of cyanocobalamin (an almost inabsorbable form of B12) to make it more complete, some people, including some vegans, have wrongly believed that food yeast provides B12. It does not.

Neither does seaweed of any type provide vitamin B12. Some seaweeds do provide a B12 analogue, which, in place of helping us like the real B12 would, occupies the place of B12 in the body without providing the benefits of it. It is much like the difference between CO2 and CO--the first is a relatively harmless waste, while the second is a lethal poison which occupies the place of oxygen in the red blood cells, thus preventing real oxygen from circulating in the blood.

In our bodies, potentially any place harboring bacterial flora might see some production of B12. The primary places for such are the mouth and the colon. Because B12 is not absorbed in the colon, only in the small intestine, none of the bacteria in the colon is understood to provide the body with B12. This generally leaves the plaque on the teeth as the only likely source of beneficial B12 in the body. Scientists have little evidence to support the actual dosage levels of B12 that the plaque might provide--it is more a theoretical source than a proven one. Those who regularly brush, floss, and rinse/spit the washings out likely lose most all of any B12 they might have had, regardless of the time they brushed. Those who choose to scrape and eat their plaque have the highest chance of getting B12 from it.

All of the above speaks only to the issue of the B12 itself. The truth is, without intrinsic factor, no B12 will be absorbed, regardless of how much B12 one manages to consume. It is possible, these days, to purchase pure intrinsic factor for supplementation purposes. It costs an arm and a leg. Many porcine (from pigs) sources of intrinsic factor exist on the market as already combined with B12 and sometimes folate. They are more reasonably priced--but I'm not sure I could stomach something that had originated in a swine's gut!

Spinach, any of the yellow such as squash, melons. there is always something around with some in it. You do not need B12 every day.

Are you talking about Vitamin A or folate? B12 does not come from plants. There's some poppycock out there published by ignorant folk on the topic: reader beware. Where I am, doctors think a vegan can get every necessary vitamin, including B12, just from the plants. But doctors here are also known to prescribe smoking for a bad cough!

Education is important.

How much B12 do you get from eggs?

According to internet sources, one large egg will provide from 0.6 to 0.8 micrograms of B12. Given that an adult is said to require 2.4 micrograms per day, this means 3-4 eggs per day would satisfy the B12 requirement. A cup of milk, however, will provide as much B12 as two eggs, and a 3/4 cup of yogurt provides an equal amount to an egg. So a typical lacto-ovo vegetarian who consumes about a cup of milk a day might need only 7-10 eggs per week to satisfy their requirement for B12. However, many factors are involved beyond actual B12 content. Most vegans in America who consume refined foods are getting some B12 from fortified grains, cereals, food yeast, soy milk, etc., because manufacturers put the B12 in them. In the case of fortification, the FDA establishes a 6.0 microgram/day RDA, so when a food says 10% on the label for B12, that will translate to 0.6 mcg of it.

The truth is that because intrinsic factor is so intricately involved in the absorption of B12, the actual amounts absorbed will vary widely from person to person. Some may even eat meat that is high in B12 and yet become deficient.

Mrs. White recommended raw egg mixed with grape juice. There may be a connection between the iron content of the juice and the bioavailability of B12 in the eggs--no research on this combination has been done to my knowledge. What God revealed does not always come packaged with the answers to the "why" questions. We are not told why we should mix eggs with grape juice, only that it will help to make good blood. And B12 is important for good blood.

Maybe the unfermented wine does something so the raw egg won't harm you.

Vitamin B-12 isn't an authentic vitamin rather its a group of essential nutrients called Cobalamin and is produced through bacterial fermentation. The vitamin B12 component in B12 supplements and fortified foods is made by bacteria and sourced from bacteria cultures.

Some nutritional yeast products contain vitamin B12. However nutritional yeast food is not a reliable source of B12.

Quite a few non-dairy milks are fortified with B12.

Root vegetables grown in organically fertilized soil tend to have some B12 in their skins.

Some tofu contains B12, obtained during its fermentation, while other tufu does not.

The problem in ascertaining B12 from plant sources is this--

Plants do not make B12 nor use it.
If a plant contains B12 it was made by certain bacteria on the plant.
Thus if the bacteria is present and able to grow, that plant has B12, if the bacteria is not present that plant has no B12.

In reading the studies, we find B12 has been found in the skins of carrots, in mushrooms, in some tofu, etc. However, since no one can say, if you eat x amount of carrots or x amount of mushrooms, you will receive x amount of Vitamin B12, because it depends entirely on whether the necessary bacteria was present to "contaminate" the plant with B12 growth, thus no plant food is listed as being a source for B12. When the bacteria is absent (which is very often the case) so is B12.
And since they can't list any plant as a consistent source the message is that plant foods do not contain B12.

To be sure you get your B12 just put a little B12 tablet under your tongue every morning and let it dissolve there -- best way to absorb it, and then enjoy your plant based breakfast.

Bacteria in the human mouth is one such place for B-12 to be formed.

Yep.
Yep.


Hmmmm..... Any idea why I responded with this?