Isaiah 8

Isaiah 8 - 02/08/05 08:24 PM

14And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

15And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

16Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

17And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.

18Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

19And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

21And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward.

22And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.

Whenever this text in bold is quoted on msdaol, it is in the meaning that prophets must prophesy according to "the law and the testimony", whatever those are. However, in the context of this wider quote, or of the entire chapter; is this the most obvious use of the text or did Isaiah mean something different/extended of that?
I am asking this specifically in light of the preceding text, above in red.

A secound question could be what Isaiah meant by "law and testimony".

/Thomas

Posted By: John H.

Re: Isaiah 8 - 02/08/05 11:14 PM

Both phrases refer to the law of God, the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 25:21
"And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee."

Exodus 32:15
"And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written."

The fact that Isaiah 8:20 says, "to the law and to the testimony" shows the common literary device in the Hebrew Old Testament of repeating a certain thing twice with different wording, for emphasis. Two good examples that pertain to this present question:

Psalm 19:7
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple."

Psalm 78:5
"For He established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which He commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:"

Incidentally, the ark of the covenant, which contained the two tables of the Ten Commandments, is called the "ark of the testimony" 11 times in the KJV Old Testament. 10 times in Exodus, once in Joshua.

Psalm 119 is all about the law of God. In verse 88 David says,

"Quicken me after Thy lovingkindness; so shall I keep the testimony of Thy mouth."

The Ten Commandments were spoken by the mouth of God:

Deuteronomy 5:22
"These words [the Ten Commandments] the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and He added no more. And He wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me."

Another good verse to compare with Isaiah 8:20, is Proverbs 6:23:

"For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:"

I would also think that Isaiah meant that a true prophet of God will never contradict what has come before; i.e. the testimonies of previous true prophets of God. "New light" will never contradict the old.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Isaiah 8 - 02/09/05 08:20 PM

A good answere on the law/testimony question. Now, how did you make the conclution that it speaks about prophets? The verese could also speak to believers or seekers without a prophetic gift. Something like, seek your answeres only from God...

/Thomas

Posted By: John H.

Re: Isaiah 8 - 02/09/05 08:42 PM

quote:
The verese could also speak to believers or seekers without a prophetic gift.

That's sure true, yes, in its 'expanded' sense. Looking at the text in a strict sense, though, the previous verse (19) talks about seeking "unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter." In other words, it's talking about false prophets who get their instruction from demon spirits, not from God. The contrast is between false and true prophets. Verse 20 says, "if they speak not according to this word." Which 'they' is that? That would be the prophet, or 'wizard', who is being asked for guidance, as in verse 19.

But certainly the principle can be expanded to apply to everybody, not just to prophets. If a teacher, or deacon, or minister, or anybody teaches things that are contrary to Inspiration, then "there is no light in them."

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Isaiah 8 - 02/09/05 09:20 PM

I do wonder about it. Some verses in the chapter refer to a prophet, Isaiah himself. The redmarked one, I wouldnt imediately assossiate with a prophet. A prophet is a person who speaks Gods words, someone seeking other spirits or the dead wouldnt qualify to this. Sertainly a false prophet would not speak for God, but he would still claim to speak for God. Therefore I wonder if it has more to do with idolatory than with true prophethood. More to do with true faith than true messages, if there be a distinction between the two. Maybe a deepening of the first and the secound commandments, only God shall you worship, only His voice shall you follow.

Thoughts?

/Thomas

Posted By: John H.

Re: Isaiah 8 - 02/09/05 11:24 PM

Yeah, I guess it boils down to how we view what a "false prophet" is. There's more than one way to look at it. We could say that a false prophet is one who claims to be a true prophet of God, but isn't; like Ron Beaulieu for instance. He's an SDA who claims that he has inherited the 'mantle' of EGW's prophetic gift, similar to the relationship between Elisha and Elijah. But his teachings don't square up.

Or we could say that a false prophet is one who claims to have supernatural powers and is in touch with their version of God, whatever that may be (not necessarily Christian); like a lot of these New Age gurus with their crystals and tarot cards.

Or any combination of the above, with a range of possibilities between the two ideas. SDA false prophets, apostate Sunday-keeping Protestant false prophets, Catholic false prophets, Muslim, Hindu, Mormon, voodoo, on and on.

A matter of definitions I reckon ~ but when all is said and done, it looks to me like the main thrust of Isaiah 8:20 is that the law of God, and by extension all other true, verified revelations from Him, are the yardstick we need to use when measuring what anybody says.

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Isaiah 8 - 02/10/05 11:27 AM

quote:
Originally posted by John:
and by extension all other true, verified revelations from Him, are the yardstick we need to use when measuring what anybody says.

These are alot of words used to say "ellen white" (with the assumption that she is who you are thinking of).

Would you say that there today exists true SDA prophets, true sunday-protestant prophets and true catholic prophets? This remembering that Israel never had as many prophets or judges as when they where straying.

/Thomas

Posted By: John H.

Re: Isaiah 8 - 02/14/05 02:54 AM

quote:
These are alot of words used to say "ellen white" (with the assumption that she is who you are thinking of).

Well, not really. I meant any other revelation from God besides His law. That could be other writings of Moses, prophecies from major prophets like David, Isaiah, Daniel, and Ezekiel or 'minor' prophets like Habakkuk or Zephaniah; the writings of John, Peter, and Paul. And Ellen White too. All of the above were equally inspired by God, across the board.

quote:
Would you say that there today exists true SDA prophets, true sunday-protestant prophets and true catholic prophets? This remembering that Israel never had as many prophets or judges as when they where straying.

I don't know of any right now. That's not to say it won't happen in the near future in the SDA church. But I don't see it ever happening in the apostate Sunday churches. Revelation 12:17 says it is the remnant who have the testimony of Jesus Christ, which is the gift of prophecy. The SDA church is the remnant.