Will Jesus change our character when He returns?

MM, what you are describing in regards to being born again doesn't fit with reality. I was born again when I was 15, and even thought it's been many years, I remember the experience well. A girl presented the Gospel to me, I recognized that Jesus Christ died for my sins, I was convinced these things were true, and realized I had a decision to make. Would I accept Jesus Christ as my Savior or not? Thankfully, I decided in favor.

There was a complete change me, there's no doubt about that. My friends and family couldn't help but notice it. I was interested in reading Scripture, fellowshipping with other Christians, and discovering all I could about Christ.

However, there was none of the long, drawn out process you seem to be describing. I was aware that I was a sinner, and I needed Christ. That was enough. *After* being born again, the Holy Spirit started revealing things to me in regards to my character. There was much that needed changing (and still, believe it or not, I'm still not perfect).

I see nothing in my experience, or the experience of anybody I know, or have read about, that corresponds to what you are suggesting. When I read what others have written about justification by faith, like Waggoner, or Wesley, or Luther, I see that their descriptions match mine.

Ellen White endorsed the teachings of these great men, and I see her writings in regards to justification by faith to be in harmony with theirs.

I see the experience of the publican to be straightforward and easy to understand:

TE: However, there was none of the long, drawn out process you seem to be describing.

TE: I was aware that I was a sinner, and I needed Christ. That was enough. *After* being born again, the Holy Spirit started revealing things to me in regards to my character. There was much that needed changing (and still, believe it or not, I'm still not perfect).

Yes, I'm sure.





It's not possible to believe in Jesus and not be born again, because to believe in Jesus is to be born again. That's what the phrase "believe in Jesus" means. It means, to be converted, to be born again, to be justified by faith, to be pardoned, to have the law written in the heart, to be under the New Covenant; to be in Christ; these are all synonyms.



She said these "may" be received through the items she mentioned, but I wasn't doing any of these things. I have no doubt that the Spirit was drawing me unconsciously, but it way by other mechanisms. God is not limited in how He works.



No, I didn't say this.



To me the issue is very simple. If we were in God's presence, would we like Him? Would we want to be around Him? Would we long to be in His presence? Would we wish to live by the principles of His government?

GC speaks of this:



So I'll be in the one group or the other; either I'll long to flee from God, or long to be in His presence. My disposition one way or the other will decide my destiny.

She also writes:



What should motivate us in following Christ is not whether or not we will be saved, but the loveliness of His character.

Also, you seem to feel you are not perfect yet because the Holy Spirit still hasn't revealed things about your character that need changing. Are these things that will keep you out of heaven if they are not confessed and crucified? Or, can you take them with you to heaven and work on changing them there? The reason I ask is due to the following insight:

4T 429
The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. To remove the stains of sin requires the work of a lifetime. Every day renewed efforts in restraining and denying self are needed. Every day there are new battles to fight and victories to be gained. Every day the soul should be called out in earnest pleading with God for the mighty victories of the cross. {4T 429.2}

LDE 295
If you would be a saint in heaven you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. Defects of character must be repented of and overcome through the grace of Christ, and a symmetrical character must be formed while in this probationary state, that we may be fitted for the mansions above.--13MR 82 (1891). {LDE 295.1}

1. Which character defect is not included in this statement?

2. Which character defect does the Holy Spirit wait to reveal until years after a person experiences the miracle of rebirth?

3. Which character defect remains to be changed when Jesus returns and resurrects people?

1. Which character defect is not included in this statement?

TE: Any character defects not made known.

2. Which character defect does the Holy Spirit wait to reveal until years after a person experiences the miracle of rebirth?

TE: How many years? Why do you say "years"?

3. Which character defect remains to be changed when Jesus returns and resurrects people?

TE: Before Jesus comes again, He stops His work as intercessor. So how could there be any character defects remaining to be changed?

1. Which character defect is not included in this statement?

TE: Any character defects not made known.

What? She said, "One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character." She doesn't leave room for your answer, does she?

TE: Before Jesus comes again, He stops His work as intercessor. So how could there be any character defects remaining to be changed?

Does this apply only to the translated saints?

Or, does it also apply to the resurrected saints?
Will Jesus change their uncrucified defective traits of character when He resurrects them? For example, does the thief on the cross have uncrucified defective traits of character that need to be changed when Jesus resurrects him?

1. Which character defect is not included in this statement?

TE: Any character defects not made known.

MM: What? She said, "One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character." She doesn't leave room for your answer, does she?

TE: Yes, she does. This is similar to the Romans 1 passage where Paul said that "everything" that could be known of God was revealed to them. Yet clearly one does not know of the Sabbath by nature. So the "everything" obviously means everything which God reveals. It's similar here. We could not possibly bear to have all of our sins revealed at once. There's far too many of them. It would be the end of us. God knows our frame, that we are but dust.

The context is speaking of the Holy Spirit's revealing the one's need for Christ by way of revealing one's sinfulness. One's need is made clear by the Holy Spirit. No possible excuse is left uncovered.

TE: Regarding the second question, let's not assume EGW is wrong.

3. Which character defect remains to be changed when Jesus returns and resurrects people?

TE: Before Jesus comes again, He stops His work as intercessor. So how could there be any character defects remaining to be changed?

MM: Does this apply only to the translated saints?

TE: Before the close of probation, Jesus intercedes for untranslated saints, so this question applies to the 144,000.

MM: Or, will Jesus change their uncrucified defective traits of character when He resurrects them? For example, does the thief on the cross have uncrucified defective traits of character that need to be changed when Jesus resurrects him?

TE: This looks like another way of asking the questions I was asking.

What's your response to my question in post #98588?

The question is, did those who go to heaven need an Intercessor just before they died? If so, why?

A.We can rule out that the "corrupt channels of humanity" refers to our flesh, because if this were the case, the 144,000 could not stand before God without a mediator, since their flesh is not changed.

B.Given that the character does not change at death, it could not be the character which necessitates intercession, since just before death it is the same as it is in heaven.

So why is Christ's intercession necessary for the righteous, a short time before they die?

Another reason is to make our prayers and praise acceptable and pleasing to God.

Tom, if you're going to interpret what she wrote in this way you'll have to provide quotes to prove your point. Where does she say explain what she meant the way you have here? Based on what you've said, the phrase "every spot of defilement [and] deformity and defects of the human character" can mean one sinful habit to the exclusion of dozens of others. Where does she say such a thing? Why didn't she say it in the context of SC?

Your interpretation begs the question. So, let's say one ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, does not make every spot of defilement they possess painfully distinct, and does not lay bare every deformity and defect of character they have cultivated.

Let's say it only includes the ones the Holy Spirit chooses to reveal. With this idea in mind, what is an example of a sinful habit the Holy Spirit waits to reveal until one day after they are born again, and what are examples of sinful habits He waits until one week, one month, and one year afterwards to reveal?

Okay, but my question was about resurrected saints, right? So, again, what kind of cultivated defective traits of character can the Holy Spirit leave unrevealed and uncrucified until after a born again person is resurrected?

MM: Or, will Jesus change their uncrucified defective traits of character when He resurrects them? For example, does the thief on the cross have uncrucified defective traits of character that need to be changed when Jesus resurrects him?

TE: This looks like another way of asking the questions I was asking.

I believe the answers to the two questions above is, No. What do you believe?

TE: If I'm understanding your interpretation correctly, that's not the point she's making, and it (your interpretation) does not correspond to reality. People do not become instantly perfect when they are born again.

MM: What do they become the instant they are born again?

If they have some of the sinful habits they had prior to rebirth, in what way are they different?

TE: "So, again, what kind of cultivated defective traits of character can the Holy Spirit leave unrevealed and uncrucified until after a born again person is resurrected?" I think I addressed this by pointing out that the character is not changed at resurrection.

MM: Do you think they will have time to confess and crucify unrevealed and uncrucified defective traits of character in heaven? For example, the sinful habits the thief didn't have time to discover and crucify, will he correct them in heaven?

TE: I take it your position is that God never reveals any character defects to any converted person ever, because they were already revealed when they were converted? Is this correct? If so, that's not realistic, IMO.

MM: God does not wait until after someone is born again to reveal to them a cultivated defective trait of character. He does, however, reveal to them uncultivated, dormant traits in order to prepare them for a new line of work. But these are traits they never knew existed, traits they have not turned into character by sinning repetitiously.

It seems pretty clear that the thief on the cross had no character defects that would keep him from entering heaven.

TE: If I'm understanding your interpretation correctly, that's not the point she's making, and it (your interpretation) does not correspond to reality. People do not become instantly perfect when they are born again.

MM: What do they become the instant they are born again?

TE: Forgiven.

MM: If they have some of the sinful habits they had prior to rebirth, in what way are they different?

TE: Before they were at war with God, now they are at peace with Him. Before they lived for self; now they live for God. Before they were not at harmony with God, nor with the principles of His kingdom; now they are. The publican is a good example. He smote his breast, asked for mercy, and went away justified.

TE: "So, again, what kind of cultivated defective traits of character can the Holy Spirit leave unrevealed and uncrucified until after a born again person is resurrected?" I think I addressed this by pointing out that the character is not changed at resurrection.

MM: Do you think they will have time to confess and crucify unrevealed and uncrucified defective traits of character in heaven? For example, the sinful habits the thief didn't have time to discover and crucify, will he correct them in heaven?

TE: It seems pretty clear that the thief on the cross had no character defects that would keep him from entering heaven.

TE: I take it your position is that God never reveals any character defects to any converted person ever, because they were already revealed when they were converted? Is this correct? If so, that's not realistic, IMO.

MM: God does not wait until after someone is born again to reveal to them a cultivated defective trait of character. He does, however, reveal to them uncultivated, dormant traits in order to prepare them for a new line of work. But these are traits they never knew existed, traits they have not turned into character by sinning repetitiously.

TE: So it sounds like you are agreeing with my characterization of your position. If so, I don't agree that one instantly becomes cured of all of ones defects. I don't believe such a thing is possible. It takes time for us to comprehend our defects. Our brains are not such that we grasp these things in a moment.

TE: Regarding your "rare" quotes, I agree that these things are rare, and I believe the reason is because of an unfamiliarity with the Gospel. Had the message God gave us through Jones and Waggoner been accepted, long ago the world (and the church, of course) would have been prepared for the coming of Christ.

Tom, you wrote, "People do not become instantly perfect when they are born again." But they are instantly forgiven, right? In the eyes of God, aren't they also perfect at that same instant?

I agree, but perhaps you misunderstood my question. I'm talking about people who are born again with some of their former sinful habits still in tact. Are these people living in harmony with God and the principles of His kingdom? If so, which principles?

If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject. (Spiritual Gifts Volume 4b (1864), page 3)

I agree. But, are you leaving room for cultivated sinful habits he didn't confess and crucify? If so, will he have time to confess and crucify them in heaven?

Also, please name an example of a cultivated sinful habit that will not keep someone out of heaven.

That's not what I believe either. Let me explain. It is during the long "patient, protracted process" of conversion that the Holy Spirit lovingly reveals all of our defective traits of character in light of the cross. "... it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process." (DA 172) Do you see the difference?

person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ.(DA 172)

Also, please understand that they must labor, agonize, wrestle, and strive (the l.a.w.s of fighting the good fight of faith) to abide in Jesus, to keep their former defects and imperfections from resurfacing. Although dead and buried, our old man habits of sin are never far from the surface, never more than a heartbeat away from enslaving us again. We must abide in Jesus or perish with our sins.

I agree, but it didn't happen. Why? Is it because people are still resisting the message?

Is it because people do not believe we are born again dead to sin and awake to righteousness? Is it because people believe we are born again with some of our sinful habits still in tact? Is it because these same people blame it on the Holy Spirit?

Tom, you wrote, "People do not become instantly perfect when they are born again." But they are instantly forgiven, right? In the eyes of God, aren't they also perfect at that same instant?

TE: No, not in the sense of "perfect" in the context of my statement and our discussion. E.g., they are not instantly made aware of all sins/sinful habits/character defects the moment they are born again.

I agree, but perhaps you misunderstood my question. I'm talking about people who are born again with some of their former sinful habits still in tact. Are these people living in harmony with God and the principles of His kingdom? If so, which principles?

TE: The following comes into play in this situation: "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject. (Spiritual Gifts Volume 4b (1864), page 3)

I agree. But, are you leaving room for cultivated sinful habits [the thief on the cross] didn't confess and crucify? If so, will he have time to confess and crucify them in heaven?

TE: Since he had not cultivated sinful habits that would keep him out of heaven, it is not necessary to give him time to do so. What keeps people out of heaven is being out of harmony with God. When one decided to repent, God reveals to the person that which he needs to know in order to be made right with Him.

No inspired statement says that God has to reveal everything evil about ourselves before this can happen. It seems to me that one must vastly underestimate our wickedness to even consider this a possibility.

Also, please name an example of a cultivated sinful habit that will not keep someone out of heaven.

TE: Polygamy.

I agree. Instead, they were gradually made of aware of all their cultivated sinful habits and traits of character during the long, patient, protracted process of conversion.

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.

In the interview with Nicodemus, Jesus unfolded the plan of salvation, and His mission to the world. In none of His subsequent discourses did He explain so fully, step by step, the work necessary to be done in the hearts of all who would inherit the kingdom of heaven. (DA 175,176)

They were born again without them. Otherwise, they did not experience true, genuine rebirth as defined in the Bible and SOP, which we both admit is "rare".

Nevertheless, they might not have been made aware of certain sins of ignorance before they experienced the miracle of rebirth.

The Holy Spirit might not have opened their eyes to things like Sabbath keeping, diet and dress reform, and other distinctive doctrines that require Bible study and prayer. But all the sinful habits and behaviors "such as is common to man", ways that are offensive to people, do not qualify as sins of ignorance and are, therefore, revealed to them in light of the cross and must be confessed and crucified before they can experience rebirth.

I agree, but perhaps you misunderstood my question. I'm talking about people who are born again with some of their former sinful habits still in tact. Are these people living in harmony with God and the principles of His kingdom? If so, which principles?

TE: The following comes into play in this situation: "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject. (Spiritual Gifts Volume 4b (1864), page 3)

I agree. But, are you leaving room for cultivated sinful habits [the thief on the cross] didn't confess and crucify? If so, will he have time to confess and crucify them in heaven?

TE: Since he had not cultivated sinful habits that would keep him out of heaven, it is not necessary to give him time to do so. What keeps people out of heaven is being out of harmony with God. When one decided to repent, God reveals to the person that which he needs to know in order to be made right with Him.

No inspired statement says that God has to reveal everything evil about ourselves before this can happen. It seems to me that one must vastly underestimate our wickedness to even consider this a possibility.

Also, please name an example of a cultivated sinful habit that will not keep someone out of heaven.

TE: Polygamy.

I agree. Instead, they were gradually made of aware of all their cultivated sinful habits and traits of character during the long, patient, protracted process of conversion.

TE: If we switch "conversion" with "sanctification," I agree. Sanctification is the process of a lifetime, during which God makes known our cultivated sinful habits and traits of character. Thankfully, however, this is not a pre-condition to being forgiven.

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.

In the interview with Nicodemus, Jesus unfolded the plan of salvation, and His mission to the world. In none of His subsequent discourses did He explain so fully, step by step, the work necessary to be done in the hearts of all who would inherit the kingdom of heaven. (DA 175,176)

TE: According the the SOP, Jesus never explained the plan of salvation so fully as with Nicodemus. He we see that the light shining from the cross draws us to Himself, and that if we do not resist, we will be led to repentance at the foot of the cross, at which point the law is written in heart. Since the law is a transcript of God's character, this signifies that the sinner has been brought into harmony with God, and the principles of His government. He has been converted, born again.

Where in what Jesus said is found this theory that a long process of disclosing every sinful habit, every character defect, to be found?

They were born again without them. Otherwise, they did not experience true, genuine rebirth as defined in the Bible and SOP, which we both admit is "rare".

TE: Again, where is Jesus teaching is this idea expressed? What I see taught is that when we repent of our sins and accept Christ as our personal Savior, we are born again.

Nevertheless, they might not have been made aware of certain sins of ignorance before they experienced the miracle of rebirth.

TE: Might?

The Holy Spirit might not have opened their eyes to things like Sabbath keeping, diet and dress reform, and other distinctive doctrines that require Bible study and prayer. But all the sinful habits and behaviors "such as is common to man", ways that are offensive to people, do not qualify as sins of ignorance and are, therefore, revealed to them in light of the cross and must be confessed and crucified before they can experience rebirth.

TE: Where did Jesus teach this?

Amen. But I suspect we have a different list of what is light and what is not light before and after a person experiences rebirth. I hope not.

Regarding the first paragraph, the first sentence, did you mean - "Since he had no unconfessed, uncrucified cultivated sinful habits that would keep him out of heaven, it is not necessary to give him time to do so." If this is what you meant, then I totally agree.

But your second paragraph concerns me. Here's why. You seem to be implying that born again believers possess certain forms of evil and wickedness that the Holy Spirit may or may not reveal to them before they go to heaven. You also imply that these forms of evil and wickedness are not out of harmony with God's will, that they will not keep them out of heaven. I cannot imagine such a thing. Please cite examples. Thank you.

To Jesus in His agony on the cross there came one gleam of comfort. It was the prayer of the penitent thief. Both the men who were crucified with Jesus had at first railed upon Him; and one under his suffering only became more desperate and defiant. But not so with his companion. This man was not a hardened criminal; he had been led astray by evil associations, but he was less guilty than many of those who stood beside the cross reviling the Saviour. He had seen and heard Jesus, and had been convicted by His teaching, but he had been turned away from Him by the priests and rulers. Seeking to stifle conviction, he had plunged deeper and deeper into sin, until he was arrested, tried as a criminal, and condemned to die on the cross. In the judgment hall and on the way to Calvary he had been in company with Jesus. He had heard Pilate declare, "I find no fault in Him." John 19:4. He had marked His godlike bearing, and His pitying forgiveness of His tormentors. On the cross he sees the many great religionists shoot out the tongue with scorn, and ridicule the Lord Jesus. He sees the wagging heads. He hears the upbraiding speeches taken up by his companion in guilt: "If Thou be Christ, save Thyself and us." Among the passers-by he hears many defending Jesus. He hears them repeat His words, and tell of His works. The conviction comes back to him that this is the Christ. Turning to his fellow criminal he says, "Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?" The dying thieves have no longer anything to fear from man. But upon one of them presses the conviction that there is a God to fear, a future to cause him to tremble. And now, all sin-polluted as it is, his life history is about to close. "And we indeed justly," he moans; "for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this Man hath done nothing amiss."

There is no question now. There are no doubts, no reproaches. When condemned for his crime, the thief had become hopeless and despairing; but strange, tender thoughts now spring up. He calls to mind all he has heard of Jesus, how He has healed the sick and pardoned sin. He has heard the words of those who believed in Jesus and followed Him weeping. He has seen and read the title above the Saviour's head. He has heard the passers-by repeat it, some with grieved, quivering lips, others with jesting and mockery. The Holy Spirit illuminates his mind, and little by little the chain of evidence is joined together. In Jesus, bruised, mocked, and hanging upon the cross, he sees the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. Hope is mingled with anguish in his voice as the helpless, dying soul casts himself upon a dying Saviour. "Lord, remember me," he cries, "when Thou comest into Thy kingdom."

Quickly the answer came. Soft and melodious the tone, full of love, compassion, and power the words: Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with Me in paradise. (DA 749, 750)

In what way is polygamy a sinful habit? Why won't it keep people out of heaven?

MM: I agree, but perhaps you misunderstood my question. I'm talking about people who are born again with some of their former sinful habits still in tact. Are these people living in harmony with God and the principles of His kingdom? If so, which principles?

TE: The following comes into play in this situation: "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes
there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject. (Spiritual Gifts Volume 4b (1864), page 3)

MM: Amen. But I suspect we have a different list of what is light and what is not light before and after a person experiences rebirth. I hope not.

TE: Before rebirth a person needs to know Christ. IOW Christ is the light that people need to know. Not some list.

MM: I agree. But, are you leaving room for cultivated sinful habits [the thief on the cross] didn't confess and crucify? If so, will he have time to confess and crucify them in heaven?

TE: Since he had not cultivated sinful habits that would keep him out of heaven, it is not necessary to give him time to do so. What keeps people out of heaven is being out of harmony with God. When one decided to repent, God reveals to the person that which he needs to know in order to be made right with Him.

No inspired statement says that God has to reveal everything evil about ourselves before this can happen. It seems to me that one must vastly underestimate our wickedness to even consider this a possibility.

MM: Regarding the first paragraph, the first sentence, did you mean - "Since he had no unconfessed, uncrucified cultivated sinful habits that would keep him out of heaven, it is not necessary to give him time to do so." If this is what you meant, then I totally agree.

But your second paragraph concerns me. Here's why. You seem to be implying that born again believers possess certain forms of evil and wickedness that the Holy Spirit may or may not reveal to them before they go to heaven. You also imply that these forms of evil and wickedness are not out of harmony with God's will, that they will not keep them out of heaven. I cannot imagine such a thing. Please cite examples. Thank you.

TE: I meant he can't have any character defects that would keep him out of heaven because Jesus told him he was going to heaven. The same examples as before. As the thief lay hanging on the cross, there was a limited amount of things God could reveal to him, and he obviously had very little time to correct his habits. What could have been revealed to him?

MM: Also, please name an example of a cultivated sinful habit that will not keep someone out of heaven.

TE: Polygamy.

MM: In what way is polygamy a sinful habit? Why won't it keep people out of heaven?

TE: What do you mean in what way? You agree that it's a sin. In the way that it's a sin. You agree that many who practiced polygamy will be in heaven, don't you?

Are you saying sanctification is the lifelong process whereby God gradually make us aware of the sinfulness of the unholy traits and habits we have been cultivating all along ignorantly? If so, please quote inspired references. Thank you.

By the way, I agree with you that sins of ignorance do prevent God from forgiving the sins we confess and forsake. Nor do they prevent us from experiencing the miracle of rebirth. However, I suspect we disagree as to what constitutes a sin of ignorance, sinful traits and habits God can afford to wait to reveal to us until sometime after we experience the miracle of rebirth.

Until recently, though, I was certain we agreed sins of ignorance could not include sinful traits and habits that offend people around us, that cause them to question our profession, that cause them to despise the gospel, that cause them to conclude we are no different than before we were supposedly born again. Do we still agree on this point?

Where? Both in what you said above and in the quote you posted. People cannot have the law of God written in their heart, cannot be in harmony with the principles of government, and retain their former old man habits of sin. Jesus told Nicodemus, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." It's one or the other, not both. Jesus said, "No man can serve two masters."

Yes, born again abiding in Jesus, walking in the Spirit and seed of the new man. "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Nevertheless, they might not have been made aware of certain sins of ignorance before they experienced the miracle of rebirth.

TE: Might?

Yes, people can experience rebirth before they learn how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded. This applies to sins of ignorance, of which we have yet to agree on. But, there are times when people are properly prepared for baptism and they learn how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded.

Please see quotes posted above. Now it's your turn to provide quotes from Jesus where He teaches people are born again with some of their cultivated sinful traits and habits in tact, that they will remain unrevealed, unconfessed, and uncrucified until the day the Holy Spirit decides to reveal it to them. Also, please name a modern day example. Thank you.

MM: Are you saying sanctification is the lifelong process whereby God gradually make us aware of the sinfulness of the unholy traits and habits we have been cultivating all along ignorantly? If so, please quote inspired references. Thank you.

By the way, I agree with you that sins of ignorance do not prevent God from forgiving the sins we confess and forsake. Nor do they prevent us from experiencing the miracle of rebirth. However, I suspect we disagree as to what constitutes a sin of ignorance, sinful traits and habits God can afford to wait to reveal to us until sometime after we experience the miracle of rebirth.

Until recently, though, I was certain we agreed sins of ignorance could not include sinful traits and habits that offend people around us, that cause them to question our profession, that cause them to despise the gospel, that cause them to conclude we are no different than before we were supposedly born again. Do we still agree on this point?

TE: We're talking apples and oranges here. I don't conceive of things the way you do. Life is not about God's revealing some list to us. Sin has wrecked us. When we come to Christ, we start a process of healing. During this process of healing, we learn more about Christ, and about ourselves. We become more and more like Him, as we see Him more clearly as He truly is. This is how I think of things.

MM: Where? Both in what you said above and in the quote you posted. People cannot have the law of God written in their heart, cannot be in harmony with the principles of His government, and retain their former old man habits of sin. Jesus told Nicodemus, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." It's one or the other, not both. Jesus said, "No man can serve two masters."

TE: Serving a master and having a habit are two different things. Take a habit like swearing. There's a process involved.

1.Oh, swearing is bad. I shouldn't do that.
2.Person swears, catches himself.
3.Person catches himself before swearing, but still thinks it.
4.Person substitutes some innocuous though in place of the swearing in the thought process.
5.Person is healed.

Not every born again person stops swearing the instant they are born again. One *starts* the process of healing when one is born again. As one continues to walk with Christ, one learns to speak more and more like Him. One learns that simply not swearing is just a beginning. In addition to not swearing, one should bless others with one's words.

TE: Let's say you do something to offend you. I'm upset at you. But I misunderstood what you did. You didn't really do the thing I thought you did. But I stay upset at me for years, and do all sorts of wrong things, like say bad things about you behind your back, and think bad things about you.

Then one day I discover my mistake. Really the bad thing I thought you did was a good thing. Oh no! I go to you and apologize. I ask you for forgiveness. I start to tell you how I was wrong to think badly of you, and so on.

What do you do? Do you make me tell you every bad thing I thought or did? Or do you see that I'm genuinely sorry, and forgive me?

Hopefully you would respond like a normal, decent human being and forgive me on the spot.

This is how God forgives us. As soon as He sees we are sincerely repentant, we are forgiven. In order for us to repent, we need to see the truth about the bad things we thought God was doing, that they were really good. Our sins may lead us to misinterpret God, so we need to see them too (the ones that are getting in our way of reconciliation). It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance.

Tom, your analogy describes a sin of ignorance.

Of course God forgives sins of ignorance. If fact, He does not count us guilty of them because the blood of Jesus serves as an atonement.

But the moment we discover our fault, God expects us to repent in order for Him to continue covering it with the blood of Jesus.

I agree with you in that we must repent first in order for God to forgive a know sin.

God does not cover unconfessed, unforgiven known sins with the blood of Jesus. Nor does God count us born again before we confess and crucify every single one of our known and cultivated sinful traits and habits. They must first be revealed in light of the cross and confessed and crucified before genuine rebirth can take place. Do you agree?

MM: Are you saying sanctification is the lifelong process whereby God gradually make us aware of the sinfulness of the unholy traits and habits we have been cultivating all along ignorantly? If so, please quote inspired references. Thank you.

By the way, I agree with you that sins of ignorance do not prevent God from forgiving the sins we confess and forsake. Nor do they prevent us from experiencing the miracle of rebirth. However, I suspect we disagree as to what constitutes a sin of ignorance, sinful traits and habits God can afford to wait to reveal to us until sometime after we experience the miracle of rebirth.

Until recently, though, I was certain we agreed sins of ignorance could not include sinful traits and habits that offend people around us, that cause them to question our profession, that cause them to despise the gospel, that cause them to conclude we are no different than before we were supposedly born again. Do we still agree on this point?

TE: We're talking apples and oranges here. I don't conceive of things the way you do. Life is not about God's revealing some list to us. Sin has wrecked us. When we come to Christ, we start a process of healing. During this process of healing, we learn more about Christ, and about ourselves. We become more and more like Him, as we see Him more clearly as He truly is. This is how I think of things.

MM: Where? Both in what you said above and in the quote you posted. People cannot have the law of God written in their heart, cannot be in harmony with the principles of His government, and retain their former old man habits of sin. Jesus told Nicodemus, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." It's one or the other, not both. Jesus said, "No man can serve two masters."

TE: Serving a master and having a habit are two different things. Take a habit like swearing. There's a process involved.

1.Oh, swearing is bad. I shouldn't do that.
2.Person swears, catches himself.
3.Person catches himself before swearing, but still thinks it.
4.Person substitutes some innocuous though in place of the swearing in the thought process.
5.Person is healed.

Not every born again person stops swearing the instant they are born again. One *starts* the process of healing when one is born again. As one continues to walk with Christ, one learns to speak more and more like Him. One learns that simply not swearing is just a beginning. In addition to not swearing, one should bless others with one's words.

The Bible is full of lists of "dos and don'ts". Judgment is all about lists of right and wrong. God is clearly concerned about it; otherwise, He wouldn't make them or keep them.

It is not the fear of punishment, or the hope of everlasting reward, that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him. They behold the Saviour's matchless love, revealed throughout His pilgrimage on earth, from the manger of Bethlehem to Calvary's cross, and the sight of Him attracts, it softens and subdues the soul. Love awakens in the heart of the beholders. They hear His voice, and they follow Him.(DA 480)

The reason it keeps coming up as we study together is because you seem to believe the list's do not matter, that all that matters is we learn to love and appreciate the character of God.

He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes.(GC 541)

But this sounds more like a cop out than an answer to the questions I've been asking.

List's aren't important to you until it becomes clear you believe there are certain sinful traits and habits the Holy Spirit waits to reveal until after people experience rebirth.

You explain that these unrevealed, uncrucified traits and habits are not the types of sinning that cause people around them to despise the gospel or to conclude they are no better off than the common worldling.

You also explain that this process of gradually becoming aware of and crucifying non-offending, uncrucified sinful traits and habits is the process of sanctification.

Obviously you have certain types of sinful traits and habits in mind, but you are usually hesitant to list them because you feel doing so isn't important.

And when you do name one, it tuns out not to fit. it doesn't fall into the category you've identified as sinful traits and habits the Holy Spirit can wait to reveal to them until some later date.

Then you get disgusted and tell me it just doesn't matter. But it does matter, Tom. It matters to me.

Your idea that the Holy Spirit does not open my eyes to certain of my sinful ways until He thinks I'm ready to deal with it is disturbing, to say the least.

MM: What about all the sinners out there who are not mad at God? They are perfectly happy to serve sin and Jesus. They perceive God as too kind and loving and merciful to execute justice and judgment against those who merely fall short of keeping the law.

The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies."...

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters....

What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?...

A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 541-543)

This is the only reason I'm discussing it, is because it matters to you. I've spent hours and hours discussing something with you that doesn't matter to me because it matters to you.


Would you reveal to a child something he's not ready to deal with? Should the child resent you because you, in your superior wisdom, choose to reveal things to it at the time you deem proper? Why would you find it disturbing that God uses wisdom and judgment in revealing things to us?

Regarding swearing, why would think I'm kidding? Your comment seems a bid ingenuous. What I described is exactly how the process works. How do you think it works? It's certainly possible God could work a miracle, and instantaneously cure a person from swearing at a moment's notice, but I've never met anyone that's happened to. The process I described is what happens in real life, all the time.

Smoking would be another example. Some people stop smoking in a moment, and report that God miraculously took away all desire to smoke. But for many it's a more difficult process. Because a person has a desire to smoke, or even gives in to the desire before finally kicking the habit, does not mean the person is not born again.

I'm at a loss both to understand why you think the examples I've given do not apply, nor why you would think I was joking when I describe a perfectly natural process that presumably anyone would be familiar with.

The law is a description of the principles of God's kingdom. The law of life for the universe is to receive from God in order to give. It is to love others, especially God, instead of loving self. It describes the only way of life and happiness.

The issue is not that God is to this or that to do something, but that it's simply not possible to live if one chooses to live for self. Living for self is not a principle that gives life. It leads to death. Regardless of what one things God will do, if one lives for self, one will die.

How does God lead one away from a life of selfishness? "The goodness of God leads to repentance." The only way is for God to reveal His goodness. This is what the cross does wonderfully.

If you continue further on from 540 yet get to the following:



The wicked are excluded from heaven not because God does something to them, but because of what they have done to themselves. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary. They don't wish to be in heaven.

3.The moment we confess our last sinful trait and habit our old man dies and is buried. In the same moment we are born again and Jesus implants within us the sinless seed of the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous fruits and traits of God's character.

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.(DA 175, 176)

Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process.(DA 172)

The publican had gone to the temple with other worshipers, but he soon drew apart from them as unworthy to unite in their devotions. Standing afar off, he "would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast," in bitter anguish and self-abhorrence. He felt that he had transgressed against God, that he was sinful and polluted. He could not expect even pity from those around him, for they looked upon him with contempt. He knew that he had no merit to commend him to God, and in utter self-despair he cried, "God be merciful to me, a sinner." He did not compare himself with others.

Overwhelmed with a sense of guilt, he stood as if alone in God's presence. His only desire was for pardon and peace, his only plea was the mercy of God. And he was blessed. "I tell you," Christ said, "this man went down to his house justified rather than the other."(COL 151)

David's repentance was sincere and deep. There was no effort to palliate his crime. No desire to escape the judgments threatened, inspired his prayer. But he saw the enormity of his transgression against God; he saw the defilement of his soul; he loathed his sin. It was not for pardon only that he prayed, but for purity of heart. David did not in despair give over the struggle. In the promises of God to repentant sinners he saw the evidence of his pardon and acceptance.


"For Thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it:
Thou delightest not in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit:
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise."
Psalm 51:16, 17. (PP 725)

Tom, you seem to be suggesting sinners are naturally suicidal, that they would sooner kill themselves than live indefinitely. But this isn't the impression one gets from reading about it in the Bible or the SOP.

The wicked are excluded from heaven not because God does something to them, but because of what they have done to themselves. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary. They don't wish to be in heaven.

What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?...

A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 541-543)

Satan motivates sinners to think they can defeat God and gain access to the tree of life and live forever. The only thing that stops them is the fact God rains fire down upon them.

Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King
672
of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething
673
lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan motivates sinners to think they can defeat God and gain access to the tree of life and live forever. The only thing that stops them is the fact God rains fire down upon them.

Tom, surely you agree with the idea that Satan will be able to initially motivate the wicked to overthrow the New Jerusalem, to gain access to the tree of life, to eat and live forever. Do you agree?

But if sinning causes sinners to desire death, why, then, will they desire to live forever after they are resurrected?

True, they will not desire to live with saints or Jesus, but they will not want to die either. Do you agree?

The glory of God is more than His character.

The glory of God is His character. While Moses was in the mount, earnestly interceding with God, he prayed, "I beseech thee, show me thy glory." In answer God declared, "I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy." The glory of God--His character--was then revealed: "The Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty" (Exodus 33:18, 19; 34:6, 7).

This expression is used in many different ways, and means many different things. Both John and Stephen saw the glory of God and it didn't kill him.

Pslam 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork.

The glory of God is displayed in His handiwork. {CG 49.2} All these proclaim the love and skill of the heavenly Artist and show forth the glory of God. {CG 534.2}

God's holy word needs not the torchlight glimmer of earth to make its glories distinguishable. It is light in itself--the glory of God revealed, and beside it every other light is dim. {COL 111.1}

His name shall be called Immanuel, . . . God with us." "The light of the knowledge of the glory of God" is seen "in the face of Jesus Christ." From the days of eternity the Lord Jesus Christ was one with the Father; He was "the image of God," the image of His greatness and majesty, "the outshining of His glory." It was to manifest this glory that He came to our world. To this sin-darkened earth He came to reveal the light of God's love,--to be "God with us." Therefore it was prophesied of Him, "His name shall be called Immanuel."

In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men.(ST 1/20/90)

The Old Testament sheds light upon the New, and the New upon the Old. Each is a revelation of the glory of God in Christ. Both present truths that will continually reveal new depths of meaning to the earnest seeker. {COL 128.3}

The glory of God, His majesty and power, were to be revealed in all their prosperity. {COL 288.3}

Their countenances were lighted up with the glory of God; and they shone with the glory, as did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. {CET 95.3}

When John in his mortal state beheld the glory of God, he fell as one dead: he was not able to endure the sight. {CET 233.1}

DA 107, 108
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

MM: This expression is used in many different ways, and means many different things. Both John and Stephen saw the glory of God and it didn't kill him.

TE: The glory of God is His character. Why should that kill John and Stephen?

MM: Tom, surely you agree with the idea that Satan will be able to initially motivate the wicked to overthrow the New Jerusalem, to gain access to the tree of life, to eat and live forever. Do you agree?

TE: Do you have some quote in mind here? Satan is capable of a great deal. I wouldn't put this past him.

At the close of the thousand years, Christ again returns to the earth. He is accompanied by the host of the redeemed and attended by a retinue of angels. As He descends in terrific majesty He bids the wicked dead arise to receive their doom. They come forth, a mighty host, numberless as the sands of the sea. What a contrast to those who were raised at the first resurrection! The righteous were clothed with immortal youth and beauty. The wicked bear the traces of disease and death. {GC 662.1}
Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" It is not love to Jesus that inspires this utterance. The force of truth urges the words from unwilling lips. As the wicked went into their graves, so they come forth with the same enmity to Christ and the same spirit of rebellion. They are to have no new probation in which to remedy the defects of their past lives. Nothing would be gained by this. A lifetime of transgression has not softened their hearts. A second probation, were it given them, would be occupied as was the first in evading the requirements of God and exciting rebellion against Him. {GC 662.2}
Christ descends upon the Mount of Olives, whence, after His resurrection, He ascended, and where angels repeated the promise of His return. Says the prophet: "The Lord my God
663
shall come, and all the saints with Thee." "And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof, . . . and there shall be a very great valley." "And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and His name one." Zechariah 14:5, 4, 9. As the New Jerusalem, in its dazzling splendor, comes down out of heaven, it rests upon the place purified and made ready to receive it, and Christ, with His people and the angels, enters the Holy City. {GC 662.3}
Now Satan prepares for a last mighty struggle for the supremacy. While deprived of his power and cut off from his work of deception, the prince of evil was miserable and dejected; but as the wicked dead are raised and he sees the vast multitudes upon his side, his hopes revive, and he determines not to yield the great controversy. He will marshal all the armies of the lost under his banner and through them endeavor to execute his plans. The wicked are Satan's captives. In rejecting Christ they have accepted the rule of the rebel leader. They are ready to receive his suggestions and to do his bidding. Yet, true to his early cunning, he does not acknowledge himself to be Satan. He claims to be the prince who is the rightful owner of the world and whose inheritance has been unlawfully wrested from him. He represents himself to his deluded subjects as a redeemer, assuring them that his power has brought them forth from their graves and that he is about to rescue them from the most cruel tyranny. The presence of Christ having been removed, Satan works wonders to support his claims. He makes the weak strong and inspires all with his own spirit and energy. He proposes to lead them against the camp of the saints and to take possession of the City of God. With fiendish exultation he points to the unnumbered millions who have been raised from the dead and declares that as their leader he is well able to overthrow the city and regain his throne and his kingdom.
664
{GC 663.1}
In that vast throng are multitudes of the long-lived race that existed before the Flood; men of lofty stature and giant intellect, who, yielding to the control of fallen angels, devoted all their skill and knowledge to the exaltation of themselves; men whose wonderful works of art led the world to idolize their genius, but whose cruelty and evil inventions, defiling the earth and defacing the image of God, caused Him to blot them from the face of His creation. There are kings and generals who conquered nations, valiant men who never lost a battle, proud, ambitious warriors whose approach made kingdoms tremble. In death these experienced no change. As they come up from the grave, they resume the current of their thoughts just where it ceased. They are actuated by the same desire to conquer that ruled them when they fell. {GC 664.1}
Satan consults with his angels, and then with these kings and conquerors and mighty men. They look upon the strength and numbers on their side, and declare that the army within the city is small in comparison with theirs, and that it can be overcome. They lay their plans to take possession of the riches and glory of the New Jerusalem. All immediately begin to prepare for battle. Skillful artisans construct implements of war. Military leaders, famed for their success, marshal the throngs of warlike men into companies and divisions. {GC 664.2}
At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on--an army such as was never summoned by earthly conquerors, such as the combined forces of all ages since war began on earth could never equal. Satan, the mightiest of warriors, leads the van, and his angels unite their forces for this final struggle. Kings and warriors are in his train, and the multitudes follow in vast companies, each under its appointed leader. With military precision the serried ranks advance over the earth's broken and uneven surface to the City of God. By command of Jesus, the gates of the New Jerusalem are closed, and the armies of Satan surround the city and make ready for the onset.
665
{GC 664.3}
Now Christ again appears to the view of His enemies. Far above the city, upon a foundation of burnished gold, is a throne, high and lifted up. Upon this throne sits the Son of God, and around Him are the subjects of His kingdom. The power and majesty of Christ no language can describe, no pen portray. The glory of the Eternal Father is enshrouding His Son. The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1}

"The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked." It is not God's character that causes sinners to die; rather, it is the light that shines out from Him physical person that causes sinners to die. The light that radiates from God's physical person causes sinners to suffer and die - not His character.

Also, the expression - the glory of God - is used in many different ways, and means many different things. It doesn't always and only refer to the character traits of God. The quotes I posted above demonstrate it.

Not even Jesus, while here in sinful flesh, could appear in the unveiled presence of God without being consumed.

"Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." Zech 14:12

Tom, surely you agree with the idea that Satan will be able to initially motivate the wicked to overthrow the New Jerusalem, to gain access to the tree of life, to eat and live forever. Do you agree?

The light of the knowledge of the glory of God" is seen "in the face of Jesus Christ." (DA 19)

Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love.(DA 761)

From the days of eternity the Lord Jesus Christ was one with the Father; He was "the image of God," the image of His greatness and majesty, "the outshining of his glory." It was to manifest this glory that He came to our world. To this sin-darkened earth He came to reveal the light of God's love--to be "God with us." (GAG 45)

No church can have light if it fails to diffuse the glory it receives from the throne of God. (GAG 95)

His face and form were all aglow with the light of the glory of God. (Story of Jesus 42)

It is the light from God that discovers our darkness and destitution. When the divine glory was revealed to Daniel, he exclaimed, "My comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength" (Daniel 10:8).” (Ye Shall Receive Power 27)

And in this last generation the parable of the mustard seed is to reach a signal and triumphant fulfillment. The little seed will become a tree. The last message of warning and mercy is to go to "every nation and kindred and tongue" (Revelation 14:6-14), "to take out of them a people for His name" (Acts 15:14; Revelation 18:1). And the earth shall be lightened with His glory. (COL 79)

It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth....The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. (COL 415)

The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. (DA 108)

TE: Everything I've seen about God's being a consuming fire has to do with sin, but Jesus was sinless, so why should He be consumed? I guess because He had flesh, but why should having flesh cause Him to be consumed by God's physical presence?

MM: Jesus became sin for us; thus, His sinful flesh humanity wold have consumed in the unveiled physical presence of God.

The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. (DA 108)

First of all, please notice that neither the truth nor the brightness of God's glory causes the sinners to die or to desire death. This totally refutes your assertions, right? Next, in spite of being exposed to the truth and the light of God's brightness, they marshal their forces to take the New Jerusalem by force. Thus, again, disproving your claims.

In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30.

Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. (DA 107, 108)

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.(GC 542, 543)

God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death."(DA 764)

Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power.(DA 759)

Exodus
33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, show me thy glory.
33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, [there is] a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].
34:8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

34:29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
34:30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.
34:31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.
34:32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai.
34:33 And [till] Moses had done speaking with them, he put a veil on his face.
34:34 But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the veil off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel [that] which he was commanded.
34:35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the veil upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

You've argued in other posts that the flesh of itself cannot sin. When she writes about God's glory consuming, she speaks of Jesus Christ as being the one who exemplifies this!!



See, this is speaking of Jesus Christ as the revealer of the character of God. He is the light of the glory of God that gives life to the righteous but slays the wicked, because He is the revealer of God's character. Notice it says that only the pure in heart could abide in His presence.

Tom, thank you for that enlightening study on the light of the glory of God. I appreciate all the time and effort you invested. I did a similar search. In many cases the word “light” refers to the truth. In other cases it refers to godly traits of character. And in some cases it refers to a divine physical form of light, and has been witnessed in different settings – in the air, around the throne, or reflected on people’s faces, as in the cases of Jesus, Moses, Stephen, etc.

Soon we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming. The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. When God spoke the time, He poured upon us the Holy Ghost, and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God, as Moses' did when he came down from Mount Sinai. Christian Experience and Teachings of Ellen G. White (1922), page 58

During that long time spent in communion with God, the face of Moses had reflected the glory of the divine Presence; unknown to himself his face shone with a dazzling light when he descended from the mountain. Such a light illumined the countenance of Stephen when brought before his judges; "and all that sat in the council, looking stedfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel" (Acts 6:15).” (To Be Like Jesus 35)

By this brightness God designed to impress upon Israel the sacred, exalted character of His law, and the glory of the gospel revealed through Christ. While Moses was in the mount, God presented to him, not only the tables of the law, but also the plan of salvation. He saw that the sacrifice of Christ was prefigured by all the types and symbols of the Jewish age; and it was the heavenly light streaming from Calvary, no less than the glory of the law of God, that shed such a radiance upon the face of Moses. That divine illumination symbolized the glory of the dispensation of which Moses was the visible mediator, a representative of the one true Intercessor. (ibid 35)

The glory upon the face of Moses was exceedingly painful to the children of Israel because of their transgression of God's holy law. This is an illustration of the feelings of those who violate the law of God. They desire to remove from its penetrating light which is a terror to the transgressor, while it seems holy, just, and good to the loyal. (1SM 232)

As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart--all appear as if written in letters of fire. (GC 666)

At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on--an army such as was never summoned by earthly conquerors, such as the combined forces of all ages since war began on earth could never equal. ... With military precision the serried ranks advance over the earth's broken and uneven surface to the City of God. By command of Jesus, the gates of the New Jerusalem are closed, and the armies of Satan surround the city and make ready for the onset.

Now Christ again appears to the view of His enemies. Far above the city, upon a foundation of burnished gold, is a throne, high and lifted up. Upon this throne sits the Son of God, and around Him are the subjects of His kingdom. The power and majesty of Christ no language can describe, no pen portray.

And yet Judas abode in the unveiled presence of Jesus without ill effect. Not so with Moses. God was forced to veil His face because it would have consumed the flesh right off Moses; as it was, seeing God's "back parts" caused the skin on Moses' face to shine so brightly that those around him could not bear to behold it.

So Christ was to come in "the body of our humiliation" (Philippians 3:21, R. V.), "in the likeness of men." In the eyes of the world He possessed no beauty that they should desire Him; yet He was the incarnate God, the light of heaven and earth. His glory was veiled, His greatness and majesty were hidden, that He might draw near to sorrowful, tempted men.(DA 23)

The glory of God is His character. While Moses was in the mount, earnestly interceding with God, He prayed, "I beseech Thee, show me Thy glory." In answer God declared "I will make all My goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy."

The glory of God--His character--was then revealed: "The Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty."

This character was revealed in the life of Christ. That He might by His own example condemn sin in the flesh, He took upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh. Constantly He beheld the character of God; constantly He revealed this character to the world. (ST 9/3/02)

First of all, please notice that neither the truth nor the brightness of God's glory causes the sinners to die or to desire death.

This totally refutes your assertions, right?

Next, in spite of being exposed to the truth and the light of God's brightness, they marshal their forces to take the New Jerusalem by force. Thus, again, disproving your claims.

Now, why are they motivated to take the New Jerusalem by force? Why do they want to occupy it? Inside the city is the tree of life, right? Is it stretching the truth too much to imagine them wanting free access to the tree of life in order to live forever? I don't think so. In light of the following insights, it makes perfect sense to me:

The wicked are Satan's captives. In rejecting Christ they have accepted the rule of the rebel leader. They are ready to receive his suggestions and to do his bidding. Yet, true to his early cunning, he does not acknowledge himself to be Satan. He claims to be the prince who is the rightful owner of the world and whose inheritance has been unlawfully wrested from him. He represents himself to his deluded subjects as a redeemer, assuring them that his power has brought them forth from their graves and that he is about to rescue them from the most cruel tyranny. The presence of Christ having been removed, Satan works wonders to support his claims. He makes the weak strong and inspires all with his own spirit and energy. He proposes to lead them against the camp of the saints and to take possession of the City of God. With fiendish exultation he points to the unnumbered millions who have been raised from the dead and declares that as their leader he is well able to overthrow the city and regain his throne and his kingdom.

Regarding Moses' face shining, here are some SOP statements:



Note the faces of the 144,000 shine with the glory of God, as did Moses', because of being filled by the Holy Ghost.



Note that Stephen's face shone like Moses' did. What is it that causes this shining of the face? Clearly it's not a physical manifestation of God, but a spiritual one.



This explains further the spiritual nature of this light of glory reflected on Moses' face.



This ties into our discussion regarding the destruction of the wicked. Notice the similarity to the statement in DA 107, 108. To the righteous, the light is desirable. But to the unrighteous, the light is painful. Why? Because they have sinful flesh? No, since the righteous also have sinful flesh. It is a "penetrating light" which is a terror to the transgressor.

Do you see what's going on, MM? This light is light which opens the soul.



This is the same thing. This is the light of the glory of God. It's a revelation of the truth by Jesus Christ. Notice that what Christ reveals "all appear as if written in letters of fire."

Jesus Christ is the light of the glory of God, who gives life to the righteous, but slays the wicked. Notice the revelation of truth "all appear as if written in letters of fire." This is the fire that comes down from heaven that destroys the wicked.

This is a spiritual truth, MM. The fire, the light of the glory of God, are spiritual things, spiritual manifestations.

How can God communicate spiritual truths in a vision? He does so by physical symbols. It's up to us to interpret these symbols. God has certainly given us more than an ample amount of material to do so.

Jesus Christ is the light of the glory of God. It is He who gives life to the righteous. Notice when the unrighteous are advancing upon the city, what happens to stop them?



It is the uplifting of Jesus Christ! Not force, but light. Not physical light, but spiritual light, namely the "light of the world."

Let's go back to DA 108 for a moment:



See how this all ties together? Jesus Christ, the revealer of the character of God, is the light of the glory of God. "light" = "revealer"; "character" = "glory." It all fits together wonderfully.

I hope you see the light.

First of all, regarding Jesus:



Jesus' glory was veiled.

Regarding Moses, I've dealt with most of this in detail, but I'll make one more point. The glory of God is His character. I'm not understanding how you're missing this in regards to Moses. This can be plainly seen from Scripture. Moses asked God to reveal His glory, and the Lord caused His goodness to pass before him. The Lord revealed His character to Moses. This is very clear.

EGW explains the same thing.



That Moses could only see the backside of God is signifying that He could only receive a partial revelation of God's character. It's not talking about God's literal backside. What Moses saw was God's character. What caused his face to shine, was the revelation of God's character.

Regarding #99442, you said that it is only literal fire from heaven that stops the wicked from advancing upon the city. But this is wrong. It is the uplifting of Jesus Christ which stops them.

What caused rebellion in the first place was confusion regarding the character of God. The revelation of the God's character stops it.

That the wicked choose death is stated in DA 764. GC 543 also tells us that their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, while DA 759, and many other passages, tell us that force is not a principle of God's government, but rather of Satan's, and that the rebellion is not overcome by force.

At the close of the thousand years, Christ again returns to the earth. He is accompanied by the host of the redeemed and attended by a retinue of angels. As He descends in terrific majesty He bids the wicked dead arise to receive their doom. They come forth, a mighty host, numberless as the sands of the sea. What a contrast to those who were raised at the first resurrection! The righteous were clothed with immortal youth and beauty. The wicked bear the traces of disease and death. {GC 662.1}

Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" It is not love to Jesus that inspires this utterance. The force of truth urges the words from unwilling lips. As the wicked went into their graves, so they come forth with the same enmity to Christ and the same spirit of rebellion. They are to have no new probation in which to remedy the defects of their past lives. Nothing would be gained by this. A lifetime of transgression has not softened their hearts. A second probation, were it given them, would be occupied as was the first in evading the requirements of God and exciting rebellion against Him. {GC 662.2}

Christ descends upon the Mount of Olives, whence, after His resurrection, He ascended, and where angels repeated the promise of His return. Says the prophet: "The Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee." "And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof, . . . and there shall be a very great valley." "And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and His name one." Zechariah 14:5, 4, 9. As the New Jerusalem, in its dazzling splendor, comes down out of heaven, it rests upon the place purified and made ready to receive it, and Christ, with His people and the angels, enters the Holy City. {GC 662.3}

Now Satan prepares for a last mighty struggle for the supremacy. While deprived of his power and cut off from his work of deception, the prince of evil was miserable and dejected; but as the wicked dead are raised and he sees the vast multitudes upon his side, his hopes revive, and he determines not to yield the great controversy. He will marshal all the armies of the lost under his banner and through them endeavor to execute his plans. The wicked are Satan's captives. In rejecting Christ they have accepted the rule of the rebel leader. They are ready to receive his suggestions and to do his bidding. Yet, true to his early cunning, he does not acknowledge himself to be Satan. He claims to be the prince who is the rightful owner of the world and whose inheritance has been unlawfully wrested from him. He represents himself to his deluded subjects as a redeemer, assuring them that his power has brought them forth from their graves and that he is about to rescue them from the most cruel tyranny. The presence of Christ having been removed, Satan works wonders to support his claims. He makes the weak strong and inspires all with his own spirit and energy. He proposes to lead them against the camp of the saints and to take possession of the City of God. With fiendish exultation he points to the unnumbered millions who have been raised from the dead and declares that as their leader he is well able to overthrow the city and regain his throne and his kingdom. {GC 663.1}

In that vast throng are multitudes of the long-lived race that existed before the Flood; men of lofty stature and giant intellect, who, yielding to the control of fallen angels, devoted all their skill and knowledge to the exaltation of themselves; men whose wonderful works of art led the world to idolize their genius, but whose cruelty and evil inventions, defiling the earth and defacing the image of God, caused Him to blot them from the face of His creation. There are kings and generals who conquered nations, valiant men who never lost a battle, proud, ambitious warriors whose approach made kingdoms tremble. In death these experienced no change. As they come up from the grave, they resume the current of their thoughts just where it ceased. They are actuated by the same desire to conquer that ruled them when they fell. {GC 664.1}

Satan consults with his angels, and then with these kings and conquerors and mighty men. They look upon the strength and numbers on their side, and declare that the army within the city is small in comparison with theirs, and that it can be overcome. They lay their plans to take possession of the riches and glory of the New Jerusalem. All immediately begin to prepare for battle. Skillful artisans construct implements of war. Military leaders, famed for their success, marshal the throngs of warlike men into companies and divisions. {GC 664.2}

At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on--an army such as was never summoned by earthly conquerors, such as the combined forces of all ages since war began on earth could never equal. Satan, the mightiest of warriors, leads the van, and his angels unite their forces for this final struggle. Kings and warriors are in his train, and the multitudes follow in vast companies, each under its appointed leader. With military precision the serried ranks advance over the earth's broken and uneven surface to the City of God. By command of Jesus, the gates of the New Jerusalem are closed, and the armies of Satan surround the city and make ready for the onset. {GC 664.3}

Now Christ again appears to the view of His enemies. Far above the city, upon a foundation of burnished gold, is a throne, high and lifted up. Upon this throne sits the Son of God, and around Him are the subjects of His kingdom. The power and majesty of Christ no language can describe, no pen portray. The glory of the Eternal Father is enshrouding His Son. The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1}

TE: How can God communicate spiritual truths in a vision? He does so by physical symbols. It's up to us to interpret these symbols. God has certainly given us more than an ample amount of material to do so.

MM: There is nothing symbolic about the light that radiates from God's physical person. Neither was there anything symbolic about the light that radiated from Moses' face. Light is real; it is not symbolic.

I was responding to what you wrote, not to the SOP. Here's what you posted:

"See, this is speaking of Jesus Christ [in the time of John the Baptist, DA 108] as the revealer of the character of God. He is the light of the glory of God that gives life to the righteous but slays the wicked, because He is the revealer of God's character. Notice it says that only the pure in heart could abide in His presence."

The way you worded things it made me think you were saying only the pure in heart could abide Jesus' presence without being slain by the light of His glory and brightness. But now you are making it clear this didn't happen while Jesus was here in the flesh. And, of course, I agree.

God didn't "show" His character to Moses on the mount; instead, God expressed it in words.

And, it wasn't the words that God spoke that made the skin on Moses' face shine so brightly that it hurt people around him; rather, it was light radiating from His physical person that caused Moses' skin to shine.

The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God.

A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them.

Regarding #99468, from DA 108 we read:



The principle is right here. Note:

1.What slays the wicked gives life to the righteous.
2.Christ is the revealer of the character of God.

Conclusion:
1.Jesus Christ is the light of the glory of God.
2.Jesus Christ reveals the character of God.
3.This revelation is life to the righteous but death to the wicked.

One is reminded of John 17, where Jesus explained that to know God is life eternal. In ST 1/20/90 EGW explained that the "whole purpose" of Christ's mission was "the revelation of God." He did so in order "to set men right with God." This setting man right with God is what gives them life. How does He do so? By the revelation of God, because to know God is life eternal.

Regarding the choice of the wicked, in GC 543, EGW explains that the exclusion of the wicked from heaven is voluntary with themselves. In DA 764 she explains that their death is the result of their own choice, and quotes Christ who says that those who "hate" Him love (choose) death. The choice is between Christ, who is life, and death. The wicked prefer death to Christ. This is brought out in GC 543.



Their choice is very clear.

Tom, if it is as you say, why, then, is not reflected in the GC passage I quoted above? Why is totally different than you are describing?

Please notice that the wicked behold the glory of Jesus, and that the force of the truth causes their unwilling lips to proclaim, "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" Neither the revelation of the truth, nor the glory of Christ causes them to desire death. The instant Jesus withdraws from their view, Satan is able to motivate them to try and take the city by force. Far from wanting to die, as you are asserting, they are eager to gain control of New Jerusalem.

Just before they attack the city, the glory of Christ sweeps out over the earth. "The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance." Again, the radiant brightness of Jesus' physical person engulfs the wicked without killing them or causing them to desire death.

Even after the Great White Throne judgment is ended, they do not desire to die; instead, they turn upon one another to vent their rage and anger. In the midst of such mayhem, Jesus rains down fire from above and raises up fire from below to punish each one in duration and inn proportion to their sinfulness. So, not once do the wicked desire to die. They fight tooth and nail to the bitter end.

No, Tom, I do not agree with you regarding the light of the glory of God. You perceive it in a light totally different than I do. I agree there is a spiritual application of the expression, but, unlike you, I also believe there is a physical aspect.

PS - It seems though as we both agree Jesus will not change our character when He returns.

In the case of the thief on the cross, he confessed and crucified any and all sinful traits and habits that would have barred against him the pearly gates. There were no unconfessed traits or habits that were overlooked that would have to be dealt with later on in heaven.

TE: Sometimes EGW is writing down what she saw. Sometimes she writes down the meaning of what she saw. One needs to put these things together to come up with a right understanding. It's not a simple thing to do, or else there wouldn't be so many different ideas. Spiritual things are spiritually understood. As we grow spiritually, our understanding of spiritual things grows as well.

MM: Tom, are you saying we cannot take literally what Sister White wrote in GC 662-665?

Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" It is not love to Jesus that inspires this utterance. The force of truth urges the words from unwilling lips.

GC 662-665
At the close of the thousand years, Christ again returns to the earth. He is accompanied by the host of the redeemed and attended by a retinue of angels. As He descends in terrific majesty He bids the wicked dead arise to receive their doom. They come forth, a mighty host, numberless as the sands of the sea. What a contrast to those who were raised at the first resurrection! The righteous were clothed with immortal youth and beauty. The wicked bear the traces of disease and death. {GC 662.1}

Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" It is not love to Jesus that inspires this utterance. The force of truth urges the words from unwilling lips. As the wicked went into their graves, so they come forth with the same enmity to Christ and the same spirit of rebellion. They are to have no new probation in which to remedy the defects of their past lives. Nothing would be gained by this. A lifetime of transgression has not softened their hearts. A second probation, were it given them, would be occupied as was the first in evading the requirements of God and exciting rebellion against Him. {GC 662.2}

Christ descends upon the Mount of Olives, whence, after His resurrection, He ascended, and where angels repeated the promise of His return. Says the prophet: "The Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee." "And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof, . . . and there shall be a very great valley." "And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and His name one." Zechariah 14:5, 4, 9. As the New Jerusalem, in its dazzling splendor, comes down out of heaven, it rests upon the place purified and made ready to receive it, and Christ, with His people and the angels, enters the Holy City. {GC 662.3}

Now Satan prepares for a last mighty struggle for the supremacy. While deprived of his power and cut off from his work of deception, the prince of evil was miserable and dejected; but as the wicked dead are raised and he sees the vast multitudes upon his side, his hopes revive, and he determines not to yield the great controversy. He will marshal all the armies of the lost under his banner and through them endeavor to execute his plans. The wicked are Satan's captives. In rejecting Christ they have accepted the rule of the rebel leader. They are ready to receive his suggestions and to do his bidding. Yet, true to his early cunning, he does not acknowledge himself to be Satan. He claims to be the prince who is the rightful owner of the world and whose inheritance has been unlawfully wrested from him. He represents himself to his deluded subjects as a redeemer, assuring them that his power has brought them forth from their graves and that he is about to rescue them from the most cruel tyranny. The presence of Christ having been removed, Satan works wonders to support his claims. He makes the weak strong and inspires all with his own spirit and energy. He proposes to lead them against the camp of the saints and to take possession of the City of God. With fiendish exultation he points to the unnumbered millions who have been raised from the dead and declares that as their leader he is well able to overthrow the city and regain his throne and his kingdom. {GC 663.1}

In that vast throng are multitudes of the long-lived race that existed before the Flood; men of lofty stature and giant intellect, who, yielding to the control of fallen angels, devoted all their skill and knowledge to the exaltation of themselves; men whose wonderful works of art led the world to idolize their genius, but whose cruelty and evil inventions, defiling the earth and defacing the image of God, caused Him to blot them from the face of His creation. There are kings and generals who conquered nations, valiant men who never lost a battle, proud, ambitious warriors whose approach made kingdoms tremble. In death these experienced no change. As they come up from the grave, they resume the current of their thoughts just where it ceased. They are actuated by the same desire to conquer that ruled them when they fell. {GC 664.1}

Satan consults with his angels, and then with these kings and conquerors and mighty men. They look upon the strength and numbers on their side, and declare that the army within the city is small in comparison with theirs, and that it can be overcome. They lay their plans to take possession of the riches and glory of the New Jerusalem. All immediately begin to prepare for battle. Skillful artisans construct implements of war. Military leaders, famed for their success, marshal the throngs of warlike men into companies and divisions. {GC 664.2}

At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on--an army such as was never summoned by earthly conquerors, such as the combined forces of all ages since war began on earth could never equal. Satan, the mightiest of warriors, leads the van, and his angels unite their forces for this final struggle. Kings and warriors are in his train, and the multitudes follow in vast companies, each under its appointed leader. With military precision the serried ranks advance over the earth's broken and uneven surface to the City of God. By command of Jesus, the gates of the New Jerusalem are closed, and the armies of Satan surround the city and make ready for the onset. {GC 664.3}

Now Christ again appears to the view of His enemies. Far above the city, upon a foundation of burnished gold, is a throne, high and lifted up. Upon this throne sits the Son of God, and around Him are the subjects of His kingdom. The power and majesty of Christ no language can describe, no pen portray. The glory of the Eternal Father is enshrouding His Son. The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1}

Four observations based on the sequence of events described above:

1) the resurrected wicked see the glory of God without being consumed by it,

2) the force of truth causes them to acknowledge Jesus without it causing them to seek death,

3) they prepare to take the New Jerusalem by force, and

4) the brightness of God's glory encompasses the earth without causing them to die.

"With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!"

TE: I believe every eye will see the glory of the Son of God, but I don't believe every person will at the same exact moment of time say the exact words "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" Do you?

MM: Of course I do. That's exactly what she said, right? "With one voice." If she didn't intend for us to take it literally, why didn't she say so? Why do you find it so unbelievable that "every person will at the same exact moment of time say the [same] exact words"?

Your outlook here helps me understand why you cannot agree that the chronological events described in GC 662-665 reflect reality, why you cannot take them literally. It explains why you cannot believe the points I listed above. Here they are again:

Four observations based on the sequence of events described in GC 662-665:

1) the resurrected wicked see the glory of God without being consumed by it,

2) the force of truth causes them to acknowledge Jesus without it causing them to seek death,

3) they prepare to take the New Jerusalem by force, and

4) the brightness of God's glory encompasses the earth without causing them to die.

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.(DA 764)

God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death."(DA 764)

Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.(GC 543)

The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.(DA 108)

TE: Because it doesn't make sense. Many people don't know English.

MM: And for this reason you're willing to reject a plainly worded truth?

TE: 1.The resurrected unrighteous will be destroyed by the glory of God:

MM: Are you basing your observations on the account recorded in GC 662-665?

Because it certainly doesn't say what you observed, right?

It says exactly what I outlined above. Yes, the glory of God will eventually consume them, but it doesn't happen in the pages I quoted. Your observation is described later on in the book.

Do you agree? If so, then it is obvious the truth and the glory of God do not cause the wicked to desire death. That's my point.

(C)ould those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.(GC 542, 543)

TE: Because it doesn't make sense. Many people don't know English.

MM: And for this reason you're willing to reject a plainly worded truth?

TE: I'm rejecting your ideas in regards to this. Are you thinking God will perform a miracle so that those who have never heard English will be able to pronounce it? They will utter words of which they have no idea of the meaning?

TE: I think your ideas regarding the GC passage contradict DA 764. I think your ideas are incorrect. I think the problem lies in your interpretation of the GC passage. I interpret it differently. . . I see in the GC passage that you quoted from a description of a vision. Visions have elements which are symbolic and elements which are literal. We have to figure out which is which. I'm using these other passages to help me figure this out.

So, yes, you are willing to reject a plainly worded truth because you cannot imagine or envision how it can be true. Thank you for answering my question.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:9-11)

I also stated that "Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God." I will give another sentence from the same page: "I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne." Now this praying company was in this mortal state, on the earth, yet represented to me as bowed before the throne. I never had the idea that these individuals were actually in the New Jerusalem. Neither did I ever think that any mortal could suppose that I believed that Satan was actually in the New Jerusalem. But did not John see the great red dragon in heaven? Certainly. "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns." Revelation 12:3. What a monster to be in heaven! Here seems to be as good a chance for ridicule as in the interpretation which some have placed upon my statements. (EW 92, 93)

"With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!"

TE: Now Paul's comments no more imply that the unrighteous will all miraculously speak Greek any more than Ellen White's comments imply they will speak English.

MM: Tom, you seem to be implying they they will not exclaim these words with "one voice", that they will exclaim this sentiment with a multitude of different voices. In my mind, the best way to understand "one voice" is to assume they will be resurrected speaking one language, which may or may not be English.

MM: Good luck with that enterprise, Tom.

I doubt you'll get very many people, especially non-SDAs, to go along with your symbolic interpretation of GC 662-665.

It is too plainly worded to be misunderstood.

What are you going to do with the rest of the book, are you going to spiritualize away everything else that is worded too plainly to be misunderstood?

Which parts of the following excerpt from GC 662 are literal and which parts are symbolic? This is the first two paragraphs of chapter 42 entitled "The Controversy Ended" reformatted for ease of discussion:

1. At the close of the thousand years, Christ again returns to the earth. [Literal or Symbolic]

2. He is accompanied by the host of the redeemed and attended by a retinue of angels. [Literal or Symbolic]

3. As He descends in terrific majesty He bids the wicked dead arise to receive their doom. [Literal or Symbolic]

4. They come forth, a mighty host, numberless as the sands of the sea. [Literal or Symbolic]

5. What a contrast to those who were raised at the first resurrection! The righteous were clothed with immortal youth and beauty. The wicked bear the traces of disease and death. [Literal or Symbolic]

6. Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. [Literal or Symbolic]

7. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" [Literal or Symbolic]

8. It is not love to Jesus that inspires this utterance. [Literal or Symbolic]

9. The force of truth urges the words from unwilling lips. [Literal or Symbolic]

10. As the wicked went into their graves, so they come forth with the same enmity to Christ and the same spirit of rebellion. [Literal or Symbolic]

11. They are to have no new probation in which to remedy the defects of their past lives. Nothing would be gained by this. A lifetime of transgression has not softened their hearts. [Literal or Symbolic]

12. A second probation, were it given them, would be occupied as was the first in evading the requirements of God and exciting rebellion against Him. [Literal or Symbolic]

TE: Everyone will be resurrected speaking the language or languages they knew when they died. Nobody's identity or character is changed when they are resurrected, and language impacts us profoundly.

Why would you think everyone will speak one language?

TE: This seems sarcastic.

TE: I fear if I say something is not literal that you will misunderstand and think it's not real. Everything that's written here will really happen, but what exactly happens requires reason and intellect to understand.

Which parts of the following excerpt from GC 662 are literal and which parts are symbolic? This is the first two paragraphs of chapter 42 entitled "The Controversy Ended" reformatted for ease of discussion:

1. At the close of the thousand years, Christ again returns to the earth. [Literal or Symbolic]

2. He is accompanied by the host of the redeemed and attended by a retinue of angels. [Literal or Symbolic]

3. As He descends in terrific majesty He bids the wicked dead arise to receive their doom. [Literal or Symbolic]

4. They come forth, a mighty host, numberless as the sands of the sea. [Literal or Symbolic] The expression “numberless as” does not mean it is impossible to count. Nor does it mean there are as many wicked raised as there are grains of sand. It simply means there are a lot of people that come forth.

5. What a contrast to those who were raised at the first resurrection! The righteous were clothed with immortal youth and beauty. The wicked bear the traces of disease and death. [Literal or Symbolic]

6. Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. [Literal or Symbolic] They literally see the glory of Christ without dying or desiring to die.

7. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" [Literal or Symbolic] I already know you disagree with me on this point.

8. It is not love to Jesus that inspires this utterance. [Literal or Symbolic]

9. The force of truth urges the words from unwilling lips. [Literal or Symbolic] I’m pretty sure you disagree with me on this one, since you do not believe God employs force or compulsion. Also, please notice that the "truth" does not cause them to die nor does it cause them to desire death. I mention this point because you commented earlier that the truth will cause them to seek death.

10. As the wicked went into their graves, so they come forth with the same enmity to Christ and the same spirit of rebellion. [Literal or Symbolic] I’m not sure if you agree with me on this one, since I’m not sure if you believe everyone who is lost is rebellious.

11. They are to have no new probation in which to remedy the defects of their past lives. Nothing would be gained by this. A lifetime of transgression has not softened their hearts. [Literal or Symbolic]

12. A second probation, were it given them, would be occupied as was the first in evading the requirements of God and exciting rebellion against Him. [Literal or Symbolic] Again, I’m not sure if you agree with me on this one for the same reason mentioned above.

Tom, do you have a quote to back up what you’re saying?

All whom God has blessed with reasoning powers are to become intellectual Christians. They are not requested to believe without evidence; therefore Jesus has enjoined upon all to search the Scriptures. Let the ingenious inquirer, and the one who would know for himself what is truth, exert his mental powers to search out the truth as it is in Jesus. (RH 3/8/87)

Because the quote I posted says exactly the opposite of what you’re saying.

I also stated that "Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God." I will give another sentence from the same page: "I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne." Now this praying company was in this mortal state, on the earth, yet represented to me as bowed before the throne. I never had the idea that these individuals were actually in the New Jerusalem. Neither did I ever think that any mortal could suppose that I believed that Satan was actually in the New Jerusalem. But did not John see the great red dragon in heaven? Certainly. "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns." Revelation 12:3. What a monster to be in heaven! Here seems to be as good a chance for ridicule as in the interpretation which some have placed upon my statements. (EW 92, 93)

That’s why I believe God will resurrect everyone with “one voice”. The same applies, no doubt, to the resurrected saints. Otherwise, what are we supposed to believe – people will not be able to communicate until they learn each others’ languages?

If you were here in person, and saw the look on my face and heard the tone in my voice, you would not suspect I was being sarcastic. I am dubious, doubtful, incredulous – but certainly not sarcastic. But thank you for calling me on it. I hope you accept my answer.

TE: I fear if I say something is not literal that you will misunderstand and think it's not real. Everything that's written here will really happen, but what exactly happens requires reason and intellect to understand.

I’m glad you agree what she says and describes in the following quote is “real”. Don’t worry about confusing me, you’ve already accomplished that by saying what she wrote here isn’t real,

that we cannot take what she wrote literally because it is a vision, and visions must be interpreted using information collected from other books and passages. Which you haven’t done yet, that is, you haven’t quoted other places where she describes the exact same scenes with different conclusions.

Yes, you’ve quoted other things she has written, but they do not cover the same scenes.

At any rate, I’ll answer the following questions by making the right answer bold. I've also included a few comments here and there. Tell me if you agree or disagree, and why.

For example, when she writes that the wicked are as numberless as the sands of the sea, this is not literally true. For one thing, the sands of the sea are not literally numberless (which means not countable, which is to say infinite). For another, there are many orders of magnitude more sands of the sea than there are wicked people at the judgment. However, anyone with a little reason and intellect can easily understand the meaning here, which actually quoting from Scripture, which is that will a whole lot of people involved.

This quote tells us we should use our reasoning powers. It's not reasonable to assume that all the resurrected wicked will know English.

You're not going far enough here, MM. She says that everyone will say with one voice, "Blessed is the One who comes in then name of the Lord!" (from memory; might be slightly wrong). This means, if you're going to take this literally, that everyone will be resurrected knowing English.

Unanimity is complete agreement by everyone. When unanimous, everybody is of same mind and acting together as an undiversified whole. Many groups consider unanimous decisions a sign of agreement, solidarity, and unity.

I accept your answer. Please keep in mind that I don't have the luxury of hearing your tone of voice, and so forth, so reading certain things can be painful. Given it is not your intention to be hurtful, please read what you are writing before posting it, as if you were reading it from someone to yourself and see how it sounds.

I'm not saying I'm guiltless in this regard, as I may inadvertently say painful things to you as well. I will say that I very often tone down what I'm writing to you because I'm aware of this unfortunate circumstance in conversing on the internet that you've pointed out, regarding the lack of being able to hear one's tone of voice, body language, etc.

TE: I fear if I say something is not literal that you will misunderstand and think it's not real. Everything that's written here will really happen, but what exactly happens requires reason and intellect to understand.

MM: I’m glad you agree what she says and describes in the following quote is “real”. Don’t worry about confusing me, you’ve already accomplished that by saying what she wrote here isn’t real...

TE: I just said it was real. I never said it wasn't real. Why are you saying I'm confusing you by saying what she wrote her isn't real when I said the reverse? If you decide to take what I write to be the reverse of what I'm writing, that will no doubt lead to confusion.

MM: ... that we cannot take what she wrote literally because it is a vision, and visions must be interpreted using information collected from other books and passages. Which you haven’t done yet, that is, you haven’t quoted other places where she describes the exact same scenes with different conclusions.

TE: I've mentioned DA 764, GC 541-543, DA 108 many, many times.

MM: Yes, you’ve quoted other things she has written, but they do not cover the same scenes.

TE: Clearly DA 764 is dealing with the destruction of the wicked, as well as GC 541-543 and DA 108.

MM: At any rate, I’ll answer the following questions by making the right answer bold. I've also included a few comments here and there. Tell me if you agree or disagree, and why.

TE: I already commented regarding this on #99656. For example, I wrote this: For example, when she writes that the wicked are as numberless as the sands of the sea, this is not literally true. For one thing, the sands of the sea are not literally numberless (which means not countable, which is to say infinite). For another, there are many orders of magnitude more sands of the sea than there are wicked people at the judgment. However, anyone with a little reason and intellect can easily understand the meaning here, which actually quoting from Scripture, which is that will a whole lot of people involved.

Do you disagree with this? Or do you think there will be an infinite number of wicked? Do you think there are as many wicked as there are sands in the sea?

The number of grains of sand in the world are estimated at 10^22. Of course, many of these are not on the sea, but it's easy to see this is a much higher number than the number of wicked, which would be in the order of 10^9. So the true number is not even close. Obviously this phrase was not meant to be taken literally.

Tom, this quote does not support your interpretation. It doesn’t even support your opinion.

You could apply this principle to any anything, whether true or false.

If a person is unable to back up a particular theory with inspired quotes, then do you think it would be smart or safe to advocate it publicly?

From this I gather you believe GC 662-665 is a description of a vision. Do you also think she is attempting to share her interpretation of the vision? Or, is she leaving it up to the non-SDA reader to research her other books in order to decode and decipher it? I say non-SDA reader because of the fact the GC was written to non-SDA readers.

4. They come forth, a mighty host, numberless as the sands of the sea. [Literal or Symbolic] The expression “numberless as” does not mean it is impossible to count. Nor does it mean there are as many wicked raised as there are grains of sand. It simply means there are a lot of people that come forth.

Nevertheless, do you agree with Tom that the following insights imply the wicked will die or desire to die the instant they are exposed to the truth and the glory of God?

The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.(DA 108)

The glory of God is His character. While Moses was in the mount, earnestly interceding with God, he prayed, "I beseech thee, show me thy glory." In answer God declared, "I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy." The glory of God--His character--was then revealed: "The Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty" (Exodus 33:18, 19; 34:6, 7). (GAG 322)

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.(GC 542-543)

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.(DA 764)

MM: Tom, this quote does not support your interpretation. It doesn’t even support your opinion.

TE: My opinion is what the quote said, which spoke of the importance of using our reasoning powers and intellect.

MM: From this I gather you believe GC 662-665 is a description of a vision. Do you also think she is attempting to share her interpretation of the vision? Or, is she leaving it up to the non-SDA reader to research her other books in order to decode and decipher it? I say non-SDA reader because of the fact the GC was written to non-SDA readers.

TE: What she wrote in GC 541-543 is from the same book, intended for the same readers. Indeed, if one read the book in order, one would have already read what she wrote there, and one could use that to help understand what she wrote later in the book.

TE: Regarding proving that not everyone will speak English, simply common sense dictates that it is not a reasonable interpretation that everyone will speak English.

MM: Nevertheless, do you agree with Tom that the following insights imply the wicked will die or desire to die the instant they are exposed to the truth and the glory of God?

TE: I didn't say this, MM. I would like to ask you, yet again, to please present my ideas with my own words, or at least express my meaning accurately. Here you've added the words "the instant" which I've never said, not even once, and which are not to be found in inspiration.

Here's what I've said regarding this:

a.The wicked do not wish to be in heaven (their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves).
b.They long to flee from God, from heaven.
c.They love (choose) death.
d.They are destroyed as a result of their own decisions, as opposed to by the power of God.
e.Their destruction comes as a result of the harm they have caused to their own character, which causes God to be to them a consuming fire.

But I asked you to post a quote to support your theory, which you haven’t done yet.

Do you really believe God is incapable of raising everyone speaking the same language?

Doesn’t the incident at the tower of Babel prove God is able to cause people to speak different languages?

I also stated that "Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God." I will give another sentence from the same page: "I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne." Now this praying company was in this mortal state, on the earth, yet represented to me as bowed before the throne. I never had the idea that these individuals were actually in the New Jerusalem. Neither did I ever think that any mortal could suppose that I believed that Satan was actually in the New Jerusalem. But did not John see the great red dragon in heaven? Certainly. "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns." Revelation 12:3. What a monster to be in heaven! Here seems to be as good a chance for ridicule as in the interpretation which some have placed upon my statements.

Those pages are not talking about the same scene described on pages 662-665. She says they are exposed to the truth and to the glory of God without dying or desiring death. It couldn’t be worded more plainly.

The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. (GC 541)

GC 622-665 is not talking about the wicked being in heaven or not wanting to be in heaven. They are on earth. They are exposed to the truth and to the glory of God without dying or without desiring death. Instead, they are motivated to take the New Jerusalem by force. They are about to attack the city when once again the glory of God engulfs them - without causing them to die or to desire death. God rains fire from above and raises fire from below. In this fiery environment the wicked turn upon one another with murderous intentions. They eventually die.

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16. (DA 764)

Does something have to make sense to you before you are willing to accept it? How far are you willing to take this idea? What about Jonah? Does it sound reasonable to believe he survived 72 hours in the belly of a fish? What about Lazarus? Is it reasonable to believe he came to life after being dead for four days? What about the tower of Babel? Is it reasonable to believe God made them speak different languages?

It's clear to me that GC 662-665, DA 764, and GC 541-543 are all dealing with the subject of the destruction of the wicked. For example, from the GC 541-543 passage:



Isn't it clear this is dealing with the judgment of the unrighteous?



I don't understand how you could read GC 541-543, or DA 764, and not understand that this is dealing with the judgment of the wicked. I've already quoted from GC 541 regarding this. From DA 764:



Isn't it clear that this is dealing with the thing as GC 622-625?

I skipped this inadvertently.

The Scriptures tell us that we should be able to give a reason for the hope that is within us. Ellen White urges us to use sound arguments, that will bear close examination. This requires the use of reason. If we read something, and come up with some interpretation which we find unreasonable, then we must reject our interpretation, or change our minds regarding what causes us to perceive our interpretation as unreasonable.

I believe that God created all things, including this earth in 6 days. So I have no doubt that God has the power to do whatever He wants. So, for example, that God raised Lazarus makes perfect sense to me, as anyone with the power and ability to create the Universe would have the power and ability to raise the dead.

Regarding everyone raised speaking English, it seems to me that it doesn't take much intelligence to recognize that the reason that Ellen White wrote that the wicked would say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" was simply because she herself spoke English, and thus wrote the phrase in English, not because she had any idea that those raised would all speak English. Similarly, if her native language had been some other language than English, say Portuguese, she would have written "Bendito Aquele que vem no nome do Senhor!" which would have no more implied that all will speak Portuguese than her writing it the way she did implies they will all speak English.

They're not describing the "same scenes". GC 662-665 includes specific details not covered in the other passages.

Yes, they are talking about the same general time period, but they do not describe the same details. GC 662-665 makes it clear that the wicked do not die or wish to die during their initial exposure to truth and the glory of God. This point is indisputable. Yes, they will eventually die. But they will not wish to die. They will fight to live. True, if they were forced into heaven, forced to live with the saints in a sinless world they would wish to escape or die, but this point is merely theoretical since it will never happen.

As you know, much of what you deem "reasonable" the rest of the world deems fiction or fairy tales. Your argument doesn't hold water. How can billions of people, speaking hundreds of different languages, exclaim with "one" voice, "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!"? I am willing to allow for the fact it might not be English, but it will be the same language. Otherwise, it would sound like chaos, not like one voice.

"Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" It is not love to Jesus that inspires this utterance. The force of truth urges the words from unwilling lips."

"Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" It is not love to Jesus that inspires this utterance. The force of truth urges the words from unwilling lips."

The point is - GC 662-665 makes it clear that the wicked do not die or wish to die during their initial exposure to truth and the glory of God.

GC 662-665 describes the resurrection of the wicked and their initial exposure to the truth and to the glory of God - and they do not die, nor do they desire to die. That's the point. You seem to be arguing against this point. Why?

Even after they endure exposure to the truth and to the glory of God during the Great White Throne of judgment of their sins, they do not die, nor do they desire to die. Which is also the point.

By the way, her comments about the wicked not enjoying being in heaven in with the righteous is purely theoretical. It will never happen. The wicked will never be in heaven to learn they wouldn't enjoy it.

Nevertheless, she doesn't conclude they would die or desire to die. They would simply rather live somewhere else.

So, I'm not finding support for your idea that the truth and the glory of God is what causes the resurrected wicked to die or to desire to die at the end of time.

Instead, it is fire rained down from above and raised up from below that causes the wicked to suffer and die in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness. Which is also the point.

Tom, if what you believe is true, how do you explain the fact that the resurrected sinners are neither slain or destroyed during their initial exposure to the truth or to the glory of God nor do they desire to die?

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)

With these things in mind - Will Jesus change our character when He returns?

Or, must the necessary and required changes happen before we die? How does this apply to the thief on the cross? Did he change his character sufficiently so that no further changes were necessary for him to be admitted to heaven?

Or, did he possess certain unknown defective character traits that must be dealt with en route to heaven before being admitted therein?

Tom, if what you believe is true, how do you explain the fact that the resurrected sinners are neither slain or destroyed during their initial exposure to the truth or to the glory of God nor do they desire to die?

Those who accept Christ as their personal Savior (assuming they don't turn away from Christ) go to heaven when they die.

Specifically you are assuming that one cannot have unknown defective character traits and go to heaven. But having unknown defective character traits has never been a test. The thief on the cross accepted Christ, so he is fine.

Tom, if what you believe is true, how do you explain the fact that the resurrected sinners are neither slain or destroyed during their initial exposure to the truth or to the glory of God nor do they desire to die?

You didn't address this question. Quoting DA 107 does not address it.

Originally Posted By: Tom
Those who accept Christ as their personal Savior (assuming they don't turn away from Christ) go to heaven when they die.

"When they die"? Don't you mean when Jesus returns?

Originally Posted By: Tom
Specifically you are assuming that one cannot have unknown defective character traits and go to heaven. But having unknown defective character traits has never been a test. The thief on the cross accepted Christ, so he is fine.

What constitutes an "unknown defective trait of character"?

That has been my question from the beginning. Do you still agree it cannot include habits that cause people to despise the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

MM: Tom, if what you believe is true, how do you explain the fact that the resurrected sinners are neither slain or destroyed during their initial exposure to the truth or to the glory of God nor do they desire to die? You didn't address this question. Quoting DA 107 does not address it.

TE: Yes I did. I didn't just quote DA 107. What I wrote following that was also addressing this question.

MM: What constitutes an "unknown defective trait of character"? That has been my question from the beginning. Do you still agree it cannot include habits that cause people to despise the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

TE: A defective trait of which one is unaware. People can despise the Gospel of Jesus Christ for any reason, can't they? What would be an example of something for which a person could not despise the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Judas despised the Gospel of Jesus Christ because it didn't involve a kindgom that would be established on the basis of selfish glory.

GC 662 does not agree with your interpretation and application of the principles outlined in DA 107.

Again, the resurrected sinners are neither slain or destroyed during their initial exposure to the truth or to the glory of God. Nor do they desire to die. You have yet to explain this truth.

TE: A defective trait of which one is unaware. People can despise the Gospel of Jesus Christ for any reason, can't they? What would be an example of something for which a person could not despise the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Judas despised the Gospel of Jesus Christ because it didn't involve a kingdom that would be established on the basis of selfish glory.

Are you suggesting Judas' selfishness constitutes an example of an unknown defective trait of character which God waits to reveal to people because it would be too painful for them to confront and confess and crucify before they experience the miracle of rebirth?

MM: What constitutes an "unknown defective trait of character"? That has been my question from the beginning. Do you still agree it cannot include habits that cause people to despise the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

It does! I formulated by understanding of GC 662 precisely because of DA 107. Otoh, I've not seen you incorporate DA 107, or DA 764, or GC 541-543 into your thoughts regarding GC 662 at all.

They're irrelevant to my view. There's nothing to explain. DA 107, nor the other passages, do not discuss "initial exposures" to truth. This is an idea you have. I've never said anything about "initial exposures."

No. I was pointing out that Judas despised the Gospel of Jesus Christ because it didn't involve a kingdom that would be established on the basis of selfish glory. Thus Judas despised the Gospel of Jesus Christ even though Jesus had done nothing wrong.

You asked:



I pointed out that people can reject the Gospel for many reasons, including reasons which do not involve wrongdoing on the part of the one whom they are using as a scapegoat for their rejection.

Regarding the destruction of the wicked, we're discussing this on another thread. Rather than repeat my whole post there, I'll just point out that she writes that the same thing that gives life to the righteous is what slays the wicked, so unless literal fire gives life to the righteous, I think that pretty much puts an end to the idea that literal fire slays the wicked.

Regarding your last question, you ask questions that have false assumptions in them (at least, what I would regard as false assumptions) routinely, and that makes them difficult to respond to, as I have to deal with the false assumption, meaning I don't really get to the question. Here the false assumption is highlighted by the word "still." I've been disagreeing with you all along. I've never agree with what you're saying in the first place. What you are considering as my agreeing with you was my disagreeing with another question you put in way that couldn't be answered "no." The fact that I couldn't answer the question "no," didn't mean I was agreeing with you then either.

I've been pointing out to you that people can despise the Gospel of Christ even if one does nothing wrong. Given this to be the case, the answer to your question must be "no," since people can despise the Gospel for reasons including sinful habits, non-sinful habits, or no habits at all.

TE:Regarding the destruction of the wicked, we're discussing this on another thread. Rather than repeat my whole post there, I'll just point out that she writes that the same thing that gives life to the righteous is what slays the wicked, so unless literal fire gives life to the righteous, I think that pretty much puts an end to the idea that literal fire slays the wicked.

MM:Did literal fire give or take life in the furnace on the plain of Dura?

Regarding your last question, you ask questions that have false assumptions in them (at least, what I would regard as false assumptions) routinely, and that makes them difficult to respond to, as I have to deal with the false assumption, meaning I don't really get to the question. Here the false assumption is highlighted by the word "still." I've been disagreeing with you all along. I've never agree with what you're saying in the first place. What you are considering as my agreeing with you was my disagreeing with another question you put in way that couldn't be answered "no." The fact that I couldn't answer the question "no," didn't mean I was agreeing with you then either.

I've been pointing out to you that people can despise the Gospel of Christ even if one does nothing wrong. Given this to be the case, the answer to your question must be "no," since people can despise the Gospel for reasons including sinful habits, non-sinful habits, or no habits at all.

What are you saying then? Will people who come up in the first resurrection have cultivated sinful traits of character that must be changed before they can enter heaven?

If not, does that mean they crucified them before they died? if so, how does this apply to the thief on the cross?

TE:Regarding the destruction of the wicked, we're discussing this on another thread. Rather than repeat my whole post there, I'll just point out that she writes that the same thing that gives life to the righteous is what slays the wicked, so unless literal fire gives life to the righteous, I think that pretty much puts an end to the idea that literal fire slays the wicked.

MM:Did literal fire give or take life in the furnace on the plain of Dura?

TE: Did literal fire give life to the righteous on the plain of Dura?

TE: Regarding your last question, you ask questions that have false assumptions in them (at least, what I would regard as false assumptions) routinely, and that makes them difficult to respond to, as I have to deal with the false assumption, meaning I don't really get to the question. Here the false assumption is highlighted by the word "still." I've been disagreeing with you all along. I've never agree with what you're saying in the first place. What you are considering as my agreeing with you was my disagreeing with another question you put in way that couldn't be answered "no." The fact that I couldn't answer the question "no," didn't mean I was agreeing with you then either.

I've been pointing out to you that people can despise the Gospel of Christ even if one does nothing wrong. Given this to be the case, the answer to your question must be "no," since people can despise the Gospel for reasons including sinful habits, non-sinful habits, or no habits at all.

MM: What are you saying then? Will people who come up in the first resurrection have cultivated sinful traits of character that must be changed before they can enter heaven?

TE: This is kind of a pointless question, isn't it? If they are in the first resurrection, they are going to heaven, so how could they have any cultivated sinful traits of character that must changed before they can enter heaven, since they're there?

Anyway, focusing on cultivated sinful traits isn't the right thing to focus on, IMO. If a person is right with God, the character will testify to that. It is not cultivated sinful traits that keep out of heaven, but rejection of the Holy Spirit. One is a cause, the other a symptom. The root problem must be taken care of; just treating the symptom without getting at the root won't work.

MM: If not, does that mean they crucified them before they died? if so, how does this apply to the thief on the cross?

TE: The thief on the cross is a good example of my point. Obviously he didn't have time to deal with every sinful habit, but he had time to repent of the ones the Holy Spirit convicted him of, and that was enough. He could go to heaven because he was right with God, which is the requirement. This requirement is not an arbitrary one, God has no arbitrary rules which must be met, but simply reflects the reality of the situation, which is that one must be right with God to spend eternity in heaven (and the new earth) because otherwise one would be miserable. God would be subjecting such a one to the equivalent of endless torment.

Christ saw the thief on the cross would be happy in paradise, and that was enough. Certainly Christ did not have time to go through an inventory of every sinful habit. What did Christ see? He saw a person who was repentant; He recognized he was talking to one who was responding to the Holy Spirit, which was manifest in the thief's being able to recognize who Christ was.

That was enough for Christ. He assured him he would be in paradise.

No. But neither is "the light of the glory of God" the source that gives life to the righteous.

They are already alive, so obviously it isn't the source of life.{/quote]

They live by Christ.

[quote]True, it adds to their life, but how?

The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 108)

MM: What are you saying then? Will people who come up in the first resurrection have cultivated sinful traits of character that must be changed before they can enter heaven?

TE: This is kind of a pointless question, isn't it? If they are in the first resurrection, they are going to heaven, so how could they have any cultivated sinful traits of character that must changed before they can enter heaven, since they're there?

Anyway, focusing on cultivated sinful traits isn't the right thing to focus on, IMO. If a person is right with God, the character will testify to that. It is not cultivated sinful traits that keep out of heaven, but rejection of the Holy Spirit. One is a cause, the other a symptom. The root problem must be taken care of; just treating the symptom without getting at the root won't work.

So, are people born again without the root of the problem? If so, does that mean they are also born again without the corresponding fruits, that is, sinful cultivated traits of character?

Will the thief be resurrected with the sinful cultivated traits of character he did not have time to confess and crucify?

Yes, He is.

They live by Christ.


Christ is their life.


This says the light of the glory of God gives life to the righteous.

MM: What are you saying then? Will people who come up in the first resurrection have cultivated sinful traits of character that must be changed before they can enter heaven?

TE: This is kind of a pointless question, isn't it? If they are in the first resurrection, they are going to heaven, so how could they have any cultivated sinful traits of character that must changed before they can enter heaven, since they're there?

Anyway, focusing on cultivated sinful traits isn't the right thing to focus on, IMO. If a person is right with God, the character will testify to that. It is not cultivated sinful traits that keep out of heaven, but rejection of the Holy Spirit. One is a cause, the other a symptom. The root problem must be taken care of; just treating the symptom without getting at the root won't work.

MM: So, are people born again without the root of the problem? If so, does that mean they are also born again without the corresponding fruits, that is, sinful cultivated traits of character?

TE: I'm not following you. I was pointing out that you asked a pointless question, since you asked if people going to heaven would be kept out of heaven because of some characteristic they had. Obviously not, since they're going to heaven.

I also pointed out that I think focusing on sinful habits isn't the right thing to focus on. It seems like you're pretty much ignoring the points I made, and simply focussing on that which I just pointed out isn't the right thing to focus on.

MM: Will the thief be resurrected with the sinful cultivated traits of character he did not have time to confess and crucify?

TE: Give an example please. I'm not sure what you're asking here. It seems like there are two possibilities.

1.The theif on the cross was perfect.
2.He wasn't, but was going to heaven anyway (on the basis of something other than being perfect).

Are you asserting that 1. is the case? If not, then in what way was the thief on the cross not perfect?

SC 29, 31, 35
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

If you see your sinfulness, do not wait to make yourself better. How many there are who think they are not good enough to come to Christ. Do you expect to become better through your own efforts? "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." Jeremiah 13:23. There is help for us only in God. We must not wait for stronger persuasions, for better opportunities, or for holier tempers. We can do nothing of ourselves. We must come to Christ just as we are. {SC 31.1}

As you see the enormity of sin, as you see yourself as you really are, do not give up to despair. It was sinners that Christ came to save. We have not to reconcile God to us, but--O wondrous love!--God in Christ is "reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. He is wooing by His tender love the hearts of His erring children. No earthly parent could be as patient with the faults and mistakes of his children, as is God with those He seeks to save. No one could plead more tenderly with the transgressor. No human lips ever poured out more tender entreaties to the wanderer than does He. All His promises, His warnings, are but the breathing of unutterable love. {SC 35.3}

We have been great sinners, but Christ died that we might be forgiven. The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf. Those to whom He has forgiven most will love Him most, and will stand nearest to His throne to praise Him for His great love and infinite sacrifice. It is when we most fully comprehend the love of God that we best realize the sinfulness of sin. When we see the length of the chain that was let down for us, when we understand something of the infinite sacrifice that Christ has made in our behalf, the heart is melted with tenderness and contrition. {SC 35.4}

Tom, if you do not believe people are born again morally perfect, does that mean you believe they are born again morally imperfect? Do you believe the thief died morally imperfect? If so, do you believe he will be resurrected morally imperfect?

Also, I agree with you that the title "the Light of the glory of God" refers to Jesus; however, I do not agree with you that the phrase "the light of the glory of God" refers to Jesus.

I believe it refers to the brightness of His glory. "His countenance outshines the dazzling brightness of the noonday sun." GC 641.

There are many forms of light, some are harmless and helpful, while others are dangerous and destructive. Surely you can see from the passages quoted above that the light of God's glory is literal light. Do you?

When the glory was withdrawn, and Saul arose from the ground, he found himself totally deprived of sight. The brightness of Christ's glory had been too intense for his mortal eyes; and when it was removed, the blackness of night settled upon his vision. {AA 117.3}

Tom, if you do not believe people are born again morally perfect, does that mean you believe they are born again morally imperfect?

Capitalizing a letter isn't what determines if to what or whom a passage refers. The context does.

The context doesn't fit. I presented you with 3 arguments demonstrated that "the light of the glory of God" refers to Jesus Christ. The easiest way to see this is by considering the very next sentence! "In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God."

"Light of the glory of God" = "Revelation (or revealer) of the character of God"

Here's an example that your idea of capitalization is off. She refers to Christ as "the revealer of the character of God." The "r" in "revealer" is not capitalized, yet you can see that this refers to Christ, right?

In the passage under consideration, in DA 108, it's clearly *not* literal light, as the light referred to gives life to the righteous. Literal light does not give life to the righteous. I've made this point many times now. I don't believe you've acknowledged this point, which is easy to see. The same thing that gives life to the righteous destroys the wicked. You have never had an explanation for this.

Regarding the passages you gave, I'm not going to go through each one, but I'll consider the first one:


This could not have been a literal physical bright light because Saul was the only one who saw it.

AA 114, 115
While Saul, with his companions, gazed with admiration on the fruitful plain and the fair city below, "suddenly," as he afterward declared, there shone "round about me and them which journeyed with me" "a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun" (Acts 26:13), too glorious for mortal eyes to bear. Blinded and bewildered, Saul fell prostrate to the ground. {AA 114.1}

While the light continued to shine round about them, Saul heard, "a voice speaking . . . in the Hebrew tongue" (Acts 26:14), "saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou Me? And he said, Who art Thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." {AA 114.2}

Filled with fear, and almost blinded by the intensity of the light, the companions of Saul heard a voice, but saw no man. But Saul understood the words that were spoken, and to him was clearly revealed the One who spoke --even the Son of God. In the glorious Being who stood before him he saw the Crucified One. Upon the soul of the stricken Jew the image of the Saviour's countenance was imprinted forever. The words spoken struck home to his heart with appalling force. Into the darkened chambers of his mind there poured a flood of light, revealing the ignorance and error of his former life and his present need of the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. {AA 115.1}

Anyway, the fact that some passage somewhere speaks of literal light does not mean the one in DA 108 is. In fact, it is clear that it isn't, because the light referred to in DA 108 gives life to the righteous. Who gives life to the righteous? Jesus Christ.

I would say people are not born again morally perfect.

Regarding the other two questions, I'm not sure how you would define "morally imperfect." It would be difficult to characterize one in heaven as morally imperfect. Perhaps "morally immature" would be a better term.

MM, if you think of yourself as morally perfect, then you have no need for mercy, do you?

T:Regarding the other two questions, I'm not sure how you would define "morally imperfect." It would be difficult to characterize one in heaven as morally imperfect. Perhaps "morally immature" would be a better term.

MM:Would you apply the same term to the sinful habits and traits of character the thief took to the grave with him? Or, will they change names or titles after Jesus resurrects him?

Can we really refer to uncrucified sinful habits and traits of character as "morally immature?" Where is sin referred to in this way in the inspired writings?

The germination of the seed represents the beginning of spiritual life, and the development of the plant is a beautiful figure of Christian growth. As in nature, so in grace; there can be no life without growth. The plant must either grow or die. As its growth is silent and imperceptible, but continuous, so is the development of the Christian life. At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God's purpose for us is fulfilled, there will be continual advancement. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. As our opportunities multiply, our experience will enlarge, and our knowledge increase. We shall become strong to bear responsibility, and our maturity will be in proportion to our privileges. (COL 65)

TE:MM, if you think of yourself as morally perfect, then you have no need for mercy, do you?

MM:Mercy will continue to be a reality throughout eternity, even after the extermination of our sins in the lake of fire. In Christ we are complete, morally perfect, lacking nothing - so far as our salvation status in concerned.

AA 476
"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17. Through the power of Christ, men and women have broken the chains of sinful habit. They have renounced selfishness. The profane have become reverent, the drunken sober, the profligate pure. Souls that have borne the likeness of Satan have become transformed into the image of God. This change is in itself the miracle of miracles. A change wrought by the Word, it is one of the deepest mysteries of the Word. We cannot understand it; we can only believe, as declared by the Scriptures, it is "Christ in you, the hope of glory." {AA 476.1}

When the Spirit of God controls mind and heart, the converted soul breaks forth into a new song; for he realizes that in his experience the promise of God has been fulfilled, that his transgression has been forgiven, his sin covered. He has exercised repentance toward God for the violation of the divine law, and faith toward Christ, who died for man's justification. "Being justified by faith," he has "peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1. {AA 476.2}

But because this experience is his, the Christian is not therefore to fold his hands, content with that which has been accomplished for him. He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory. {AA 476.3}

TE:Regarding the other two questions, I'm not sure how you would define "morally imperfect." It would be difficult to characterize one in heaven as morally imperfect. Perhaps "morally immature" would be a better term.

MM:Would you apply the same term to the sinful habits and traits of character the thief took to the grave with him? Or, will they change names or titles after Jesus resurrects him?

TE: You're serious? They change names or titles after Jesus resurrects him? How can this be a serious question?

MM: Can we really refer to uncrucified sinful habits and traits of character as "morally immature?" Where is sin referred to in this way in the inspired writings?

TE: You mean "character," not "sin." Here's an example:

"The germination of the seed represents the beginning of spiritual life, and the development of the plant is a beautiful figure of Christian growth. As in nature, so in grace; there can be no life without growth. The plant must either grow or die. As its growth is silent and imperceptible, but continuous, so is the development of the Christian life. At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God's purpose for us is fulfilled, there will be continual advancement. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. As our opportunities multiply, our experience will enlarge, and our knowledge increase. We shall become strong to bear responsibility, and our maturity will be in proportion to our privileges. (COL 65)

TE: MM, if you think of yourself as morally perfect, then you have no need for mercy, do you?

MM: Mercy will continue to be a reality throughout eternity, even after the extermination of our sins in the lake of fire. In Christ we are complete, morally perfect, lacking nothing - so far as our salvation status in concerned.

TE: You didn't say "In Christ" before. It seems to me we've had this conversation before, and I pointed out the same thing, and you agreed you should say "in Christ."

TE:Regarding the other two questions, I'm not sure how you would define "morally imperfect." It would be difficult to characterize one in heaven as morally imperfect. Perhaps "morally immature" would be a better term.

MM:Would you apply the same term to the sinful habits and traits of character the thief took to the grave with him? Or, will they change names or titles after Jesus resurrects him?

TE: You're serious? They change names or titles after Jesus resurrects him? How can this be a serious question?

I took what you wrote seriously. That is, I assumed you were serious when you addressed my two questions by saying the moral imperfections the thief took with him to the grave would be regarded as "morally immature" in the resurrection. Please explain how his sinful habits will go from moral imperfections to merely morally immature habits in the "twinkling of an eye".

Green Cochoa

What is being talked about in 1 Cor. 15:50-53. What is changed at the last trumpet if it isnt our character?

Aaron

Character is not neutral; it is either sinful or sinless.

AA 476
"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17. Through the power of Christ, men and women have broken the chains of sinful habit. They have renounced selfishness. The profane have become reverent, the drunken sober, the profligate pure. Souls that have borne the likeness of Satan have become transformed into the image of God. This change is in itself the miracle of miracles. A change wrought by the Word, it is one of the deepest mysteries of the Word. We cannot understand it; we can only believe, as declared by the Scriptures, it is "Christ in you, the hope of glory." {AA 476.1}

When the Spirit of God controls mind and heart, the converted soul breaks forth into a new song; for he realizes that in his experience the promise of God has been fulfilled, that his transgression has been forgiven, his sin covered. He has exercised repentance toward God for the violation of the divine law, and faith toward Christ, who died for man's justification. "Being justified by faith," he has "peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1. {AA 476.2}

But because this experience is his, the Christian is not therefore to fold his hands, content with that which has been accomplished for him. He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory. {AA 476.3}

With 'Christ in you, the hope of glory', there should be no desire to sin, for He never had such desire. Sin found no responding chord in His mind.

The real issue is surrender, subjection, but these are only accomplished by faith. Peter had not fully surrendered his own will when he thrice denied the Saviour. If we are in subjection to Christ and His Spirit dwells within us, our motives and actions will be heaven directed. Our choices will be correct. When we see light, we will not call it darkness and thereby grieve the Spirit.

Though never a Sabbathkeeper or monogamous, a Spirit-led soul will advance from strength to strength as Christ leads him into all truth. This I understand to be sanctification, accepting the light as it comes and walking in it. The thief on the cross surrendered fully and was ready to follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.

The 'partially converted' man wants to serve two masters because he cannot trust and fully surrender to His Creator and the Head of the Church, Jesus Christ. This is not surrender, but rebellion, choosing his own will over God's will.

To clarify, I understand sanctification as living up to all the light God shows us. Such will be no burden for the human who is subject to Christ. There will be no conflict.

MM:Character is not neutral; it is either sinful or sinless.

TE:What do you mean by this? In particular, do you think a born again person has a sinless character? (i.e. all born again people have sinless characters).

TE: Regarding the other two questions, I'm not sure how you would define "morally imperfect." It would be difficult to characterize one in heaven as morally imperfect. Perhaps "morally immature" would be a better term.

MM: Would you apply the same term to the sinful habits and traits of character the thief took to the grave with him? Or, will they change names or titles after Jesus resurrects him?

TE: You're serious? They change names or titles after Jesus resurrects him? How can this be a serious question?

MM: I took what you wrote seriously. That is, I assumed you were serious when you addressed my two questions by saying the moral imperfections the thief took with him to the grave would be regarded as "morally immature" in the resurrection. Please explain how his sinful habits will go from moral imperfections to merely morally immature habits in the "twinkling of an eye".

TE: You asked, "Would you apply the same term to the sinful habits and traits of character the thief took to the grave with him? Or, will they change names or titles after Jesus resurrects him?" Change to what, for example? What good would changing the name or title of a term do? Why are you asking this question?

MM: Can we really refer to uncrucified sinful habits and traits of character as "morally immature?" Where is sin referred to in this way in the inspired writings?

TE: You mean "character," not "sin." Here's an example:

"The germination of the seed represents the beginning of spiritual life, and the development of the plant is a beautiful figure of Christian growth. As in nature, so in grace; there can be no life without growth. The plant must either grow or die. As its growth is silent and imperceptible, but continuous, so is the development of the Christian life. At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God's purpose for us is fulfilled, there will be continual advancement. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. As our opportunities multiply, our experience will enlarge, and our knowledge increase. We shall become strong to bear responsibility, and our maturity will be in proportion to our privileges. (COL 65)

MM: I meant cultivated sinful traits of character. Character is not neutral; it is either sinful or sinless.

TE: “Character is not neutral; it is either sinful or sinless.” What do you mean by this? In particular, do you think a born again person has a sinless character? (i.e. all born again people have sinless characters).

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}

It is your work to advance toward perfection, making constant improvement, until at last you are pronounced worthy to receive immortal life. And even then the work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity. {HP 186.6}

TE: MM, if you think of yourself as morally perfect, then you have no need for mercy, do you?

MM: Mercy will continue to be a reality throughout eternity, even after the extermination of our sins in the lake of fire. In Christ we are complete, morally perfect, lacking nothing - so far as our salvation status in concerned.

TE: You didn't say "In Christ" before. It seems to me we've had this conversation before, and I pointed out the same thing, and you agreed you should say "in Christ."

Tom, you said the thief took certain uncrucified cultivated sinful traits of character with him to the grave.

Then you said in the resurrection these certain sinful traits of character will be reclassified as "morally mature"

You seem to think this means the Holy Spirit will be able to gradually make born again believers aware that certain of their habits and cultivated traits of character are sinful, and that these things need to be confessed and crucified.

Do you see what I mean? "... an advance from one stage of perfection to another." Not an advance from one stage of imperfection to a lesser stage of imperfection until we achieve perfection. It's not a process of devolution.

TE: You didn't say "In Christ" before. It seems to me we've had this conversation before, and I pointed out the same thing, and you agreed you should say "in Christ."

I didn't say anything about it before this recent volley.

I was merely addressing your observation regarding my moral perfection and whether or not I still need mercy. I answered it as you have instructed me. I thought I was being a good student.

Instead, I am implying that although people experience moral perfection the moment they crucify their old man habits of sin, their cultivated sinful traits of character, it does not mean they have learned how to obey and observe "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded. See Matthew 28:19-20. For example, they might not have learned how to obey and observe the 7th day Sabbath before they experienced the miracle of rebirth. This is not a moral or immoral issue until they are convicted of the truth.

Do you believe you are morally perfect? Or that you are morally perfect in Christ? Or are these both the same?

What I don't understand is why you single out the Sabbath. This same principle applies to any unknown behavior.

Do you believe you are morally perfect? Or that you are morally perfect in Christ? Or are these both the same?

Either both are true or neither one is.

Tom, regarding your posts #101117, 101118, and 101119 you wrote - Where did I say this? It takes too long to go back and find the quotes. Please just address the points. Thank you.

1. Do you believe the thief took certain uncrucified cultivated sinful traits of character with him to the grave? If not, do you believe he confessed and crucified all of his cultivated sinful traits and habits before he died?

2. Do you believe after the resurrection that all uncrucified cultivated sinful traits of character will be reclassified as "morally mature"? If not, will they still be considered sinful? If so, how and when will they be crucified?

3. Do you believe the Holy Spirit gradually make born again believers aware that certain of their habits and cultivated traits of character are sinful? And, does He expect them to confess and crucify them after they are convicted of the truth?

4. How do you define the difference between sins of ignorance and cultivated sinful traits of character?

5. How do you define the difference between inherited traits of character and cultivated traits of character?

1. Tom, did the thief take certain cultivated sinful traits to the grave? What do you mean by "sins to overcome"?

2. What do you mean by "crucified on the cross"?

3. Is revealing the truth and revealing cultivated sinful traits of character the same thing?

4. Are people born again with cultivated sinful traits of character?

5. Are people guilty of sinning because they possess inherited traits of character?

Did Jesus possess them?

1. What do you mean by "sins to overcome"?

1. What do you mean by "sinless"?

2. What do you mean "they [the uncrucified cultivated sinful traits the thief took with him to the grave] were crucified on the cross"?

3. What is the difference, in light of your posts above, between "revealing the truth and revealing cultivated sinful traits of character"?

4. What do you mean by "born again sinless"?

4. Are people born again sinful?

5. Is it a sin to possess inherited (uncultivated) traits of character?

5. How do people know when they are doing something wrong?

5. Did Jesus inherit the same traits of character we inherit at conception?

By "sinless", then, do you mean they have 1) no cultivated sinful traits to confess and crucify, and 2) no sins of ignorance to discover and crucify?

1. Tom, did the thief take certain cultivated sinful traits to the grave? What do you mean by "sins to overcome"?

Unless he was sinless, he would have had to, wouldn't he?

Or, can they be viewed as "sinless", in the eyes of God, if they have no cultivated sinful traits of character to crucify but still sin ignorantly or unwittingly?

You say the thief took certain cultivated sinful traits of character with him to the grave, but you haven't clearly explained what will become of them in the resurrection. Will Jesus change them or crucify them in the resurrection? If not, what will become of them?

Since it is not a sin to possess uncultivated inherited traits of character, then is it correct to conclude Jesus inherited them and possessed them to, that He was not tainted or sinful because He had them?

If so, can this also be applied to uncultivated inherited sinful tendencies, inclinations, propensities? That is, did Jesus also inherit them like we do? Does anyone incur guilt and condemnation because they inherit them?

I'm talking about his cultivated sinful traits of character, not the sins he committed ignorantly. Will Jesus change these when he returns and resurrects the thief?

By the way, can you name a sin the thief might have cultivated ignorantly?

And, do cultivated sins of ignorance become a part of ones character?

Here's how I see things. The character determines what a person will do in a certain situation. Of primary concern is how a person would be in heaven. Would he be happy? Would he be a good citizen? Regarding the thief on the cross, the answer to these questions was evident to Jesus Christ, who answered him, "Yes" when requested to be a part of His kingdom.

I'm sure Jesus wasn't considering his cultivated sins or ignorance, nor cultivated sins at all. It was enough to see that he was responding to the Holy Spirit, and knew who He (Jesus Christ) was and was interested in being a part of His kingdom.

What did you think of this:

Here's how I see things. The character determines what a person will do in a certain situation. Of primary concern is how a person would be in heaven. Would he be happy? Would he be a good citizen? Regarding the thief on the cross, the answer to these questions was evident to Jesus Christ, who answered him, "Yes" when requested to be a part of His kingdom.

I'm sure Jesus wasn't considering his cultivated sins or ignorance, nor cultivated sins at all. It was enough to see that he was responding to the Holy Spirit, and knew who He (Jesus Christ) was and was interested in being a part of His kingdom.

"This man was not a hardened criminal; he had been led astray by evil associations, but he was less guilty than many of those who stood beside the cross reviling the Saviour. He had seen and heard Jesus, and had been convicted by His teaching, but he had been turned away from Him by the priests and rulers. Seeking to stifle conviction, he had plunged deeper and deeper into sin, until he was arrested, tried as a criminal, and condemned to die on the cross.

"In the judgment hall and on the way to Calvary he had been in company with Jesus. He had heard Pilate declare, "I find no fault in Him." John 19:4. He had marked His godlike bearing, and His pitying forgiveness of His tormentors. On the cross he sees the many great religionists shoot out the tongue with scorn, and ridicule the Lord Jesus. He sees the wagging heads. He hears the upbraiding speeches taken up by his companion in guilt: "If Thou be Christ, save Thyself and us." Among the passers-by he hears many defending Jesus. He hears them repeat His words, and tell of His works.

"The conviction comes back to him that this is the Christ. Turning to his fellow criminal he says, "Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?" The dying thieves have no longer anything to fear from man. But upon one of them presses the conviction that there is a God to fear, a future to cause him to tremble. And now, all sin-polluted as it is, his life history is about to close. "And we indeed justly," he moans; "for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this Man hath done nothing amiss." {DA 749.3}

"There is no question now. There are no doubts, no reproaches. When condemned for his crime, the thief had become hopeless and despairing; but strange, tender thoughts now spring up. He calls to mind all he has heard of Jesus, how He has healed the sick and pardoned sin. He has heard the words of those who believed in Jesus and followed Him weeping. He has seen and read the title above the Saviour's head. He has heard the passers-by repeat it, some with grieved, quivering lips, others with jesting and mockery.

"The Holy Spirit illuminates his mind, and little by little the chain of evidence is joined together. In Jesus, bruised, mocked, and hanging upon the cross, he sees the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. Hope is mingled with anguish in his voice as the helpless, dying soul casts himself upon a dying Saviour. "Lord, remember me," he cries, "when Thou comest into Thy kingdom." {DA 750.1}

"While the leading Jews deny Him, and even the disciples doubt His divinity, the poor thief, upon the brink of eternity, calls Jesus Lord. Many were ready to call Him Lord when He wrought miracles, and after He had risen from the grave; but none acknowledged Him as He hung dying upon the cross save the penitent thief who was saved at the eleventh hour. {DA 750.3}

"Such faith may be represented by the eleventh hour laborers who receive as much reward as do those who have labored for many hours. The thief asked in faith, in penitence, in contrition. He asked in earnestness, as if he fully realized that Jesus could save him if He would. And the hope in his voice was mingled with anguish as he realized that if He did not, he would be lost, eternally lost. He cast his helpless, dying soul and body on Jesus Christ." {5BC 1125.1}

"Some among the redeemed will have laid hold of Christ in the last hours of life, and in heaven instruction will be given to these, who, when they died, did not understand perfectly the plan of salvation. {Mar 320.2}

Thousands in the eleventh hour will see and acknowledge the truth. . . . These conversions to truth will be made with a rapidity that will surprise the church, and God's name alone will be glorified.--2SM 16 (1890). {LDE 212.1}

There will be thousands converted to the truth in a day who at the eleventh hour see and acknowledge the truth and the movements of the Spirit of God.--EGW'88 755 (1890). {LDE 212.2}

The time is coming when there will be as many converted in a day as there were on the Day of Pentecost, after the disciples had received the Holy Spirit.--Ev 692 (1905). {LDE 212.3}

"But I speak not my own words when I say that God's Spirit will pass by those who have had their day of test and opportunity, but who have not distinguished the voice of God or appreciated the movings of His Spirit. Then thousands in the eleventh hour will see and acknowledge the truth. {2SM 16.1}

"The law of God is made void, and even among those who advocate its binding claims are some who break its sacred precepts. The Bible will be opened from house to house, and men and women will find access to these homes, and minds will be opened to receive the Word of God; and, when the crisis comes, many will be prepared to make right decisions, even in the face of the formidable difficulties that will be brought about through the deceptive miracles of Satan. Although these will confess the truth and become workers with Christ at the eleventh hour, they will receive equal wages with those who have wrought through the whole day. There will be an army of steadfast believers who will stand as firm as a rock through the last test. . . . {3SM 390.3}

"The sands of your life are nearly run out, and now if you will come to God just as you are, without one plea but that He has died to save the chiefest of sinners, you will find pardon even in this the eleventh hour. Man must cooperate with God. Christ did not die to have the power to cover transgression unrepented of and unconfessed. Not all sins are to be confessed publicly, but some are to be confessed alone to God and the parties that have been injured. {TSB 133.4}

"Many who are now the bitterest opponents of truth are acting up to their honest convictions of duty, but they will yet see the truth, and become its warm advocates. Those who now treat them with ridicule, who manifest a harsh spirit toward them, will fall under temptation, and bring reproach upon the cause of God, and cause the loss of souls through their indiscretion. Many who go into the field at the call made at the eleventh hour, will through the grace of Christ so present the truth, that they will be accounted first. {VSS 241.2}

The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. (4T 429)

There is really no place in heaven for these dispositions. A man with such a character will only make heaven miserable, because he himself is miserable. “Except ye be born again,” said Christ, “ye cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.” To enter heaven, a man must have Christ formed within, the hope of glory, and take heaven with him. The Lord Jesus alone can fashion and change the character. For want of patience, kindness, forbearance, unselfishness, and love, the revealings of the traits flash forth involuntarily when off guard, and unchristian words, unchristlikeness of character burst forth sometimes to the ruin of the soul. (FE 279)

If you would be a saint in heaven you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. Defects of character must be repented of and overcome through the grace of Christ, and a symmetrical character must be formed while in this probationary state, that we may be fitted for the mansions above. (LDE 295)

The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. To remove the stains of sin requires the work of a lifetime. Every day renewed efforts in restraining and denying self are needed. Every day there are new battles to fight and victories to be gained. Every day the soul should be called out in earnest pleading with God for the mighty victories of the cross. (4T 429)

By their actions those connected with our institutions give proof of the worth, or worthlessness, of their judgment. Those who enter the service of the institution with a spirit of unwillingness to help, who do their allotted tasks with a feeling of compulsion, in sullen submission, who act as if they would gladly escape from the drudgery of the necessary daily duties which someone must do, are very little help to the institution. A mechanical obedience may hide the smoldering fire of rebellion, but it is ready to break out at any time against restraint. In the service of such there is no peace or light or love. The atmosphere surrounding their souls is not fragrant. The influence of their words and actions is felt by others, and this influence is a harm even to those who are trying to do their best in any position in which they are placed. Self-pity is deteriorating to the characters of those who cherish it, and it exerts an influence that spoils the happiness of others. {MM 177.3}

We need to beware of self-pity. Never indulge the feeling that you are not esteemed as you should be, that your efforts are not appreciated, that your work is too difficult. Let the memory of what Christ has endured for us silence every murmuring thought. We are treated better than was our Lord. "Seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not." Jeremiah 45:5. The Lord has no place in His work for those who have a greater desire to win the crown than to bear the cross. He wants men who are more intent upon doing their duty than upon receiving their reward--men who are more solicitous for principle than for promotion. {MH 476.2}

Your self-pity is an injury to you; you sympathize with yourself, feel that you are not esteemed as you should be, that your work is altogether too hard, and your best efforts are unappreciated. These feelings are the result of a spiritual disease, which can be cured only through faith in Christ. The temptation seizes you when you are weary or perplexed; but when the first symptoms appear, and the enemy works to make you grumble and murmur, look unto Jesus, trust in your Saviour. This is the only cure for this spiritual malaria. . . . If you allow your mind to be occupied with these things, the enemy will see that you are kept busy. He puts his magnifying glass before your eyes, and mole hills of difficulty are made to appear as mountains. . . . You need to understand how to repose in God. A wise heart, molded by the Holy Spirit, it is your privilege to have; and this is the foundation of all true happiness. . . . {SD 298.2}

God would have you trust in His love, and be constantly guarding your soul by locking the gate of your thoughts, that they shall not become unmanageable; for when you allow your mind to indulge these thoughts of self-pity, the enemy comes in to suggest the most unkind and unreasonable things in regard to those who would do you good, and only good. {SD 298.3}

So, the question is, based on what you've said about the thief, When will the thief confess and crucify the cultivated sinful traits of character he did not have time to confess and crucify on the cross before he died?

There is really no place in heaven for these dispositions. A man with such a character will only make heaven miserable, because he himself is miserable. “Except ye be born again,” said Christ, “ye cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.” To enter heaven, a man must have Christ formed within, the hope of glory, and take heaven with him. The Lord Jesus alone can fashion and change the character. For want of patience, kindness, forbearance, unselfishness, and love, the revealings of the traits flash forth involuntarily when off guard, and unchristian words, unchristlikeness of character burst forth sometimes to the ruin of the soul. (FE 279)

2. Also, since character is formed through repetition, how could the thief have been ignorant of sinful traits like self-pity?

TE: Your conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. That is, the fact that character is formed by repeitition does not prevent people of being ignorant of certain things they do.

MM: True, but can we apply this to sinful traits of character like self-pity?

I agree it applies to truths, like the Sabbath, which require Bible study and prayer, but what about those sins, like self-pity, that even worldings have identified as evil and counterproductive? Self-pity is a temptation "such as is common to man." 1 Cor 10:13. It doesn't take Bible study and prayer to discern the fact self-pity is destructive.

In light of what she wrote about the injurious effects of self-pity, it is hard for me to agree with you that the thief will be resurrected with this sinful trait of character.

3. Was Jesus ignorant of it? If not, why didn't He say anything about it to the thief on the cross?

TE: Probably.

MM: Do you really believe Jesus did not know which cultivated sinful traits of character the thief possessed?

4. By not saying anything about it on the cross, was Jesus in essence saying it didn't matter so far as his salvation was concerned?

TE: Yes

MM: After reading what Sister White wrote about self-pity, do you still believe he will be resurrected with it?

5. And, if it doesn't matter, is that the same thing as saying sinners who possess certain cultivated sinful habits going into the grave will not be resurrected with them when Jesus returns?

TE: No.

MM: What then? Will the thief be resurrected with the cultivated sinful traits of character he did not have time to confess and crucify on the cross before he died?

6. If not, what will happen to the uncrucified cultivated sinful traits of character when a person is resurrected?

TE: The person won't sin after being resurrected, if that's what you're asking.

MM: I agree that resurrected saints will not sin. But what do you think will happen to the cultivated sinful traits of character they did not have time to confess and crucify before they died? Again, here is what she wrote about it: "The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming."

Is it your position that Rosangela was not converted before she realized she had unknowingly been exercising self-pity?

By their actions those connected with our institutions give proof of the worth, or worthlessness, of their judgment. Those who enter the service of the institution with a spirit of unwillingness to help, who do their allotted tasks with a feeling of compulsion, in sullen submission, who act as if they would gladly escape from the drudgery of the necessary daily duties which someone must do, are very little help to the institution. A mechanical obedience may hide the smoldering fire of rebellion, but it is ready to break out at any time against restraint. In the service of such there is no peace or light or love. The atmosphere surrounding their souls is not fragrant. The influence of their words and actions is felt by others, and this influence is a harm even to those who are trying to do their best in any position in which they are placed. Self-pity is deteriorating to the characters of those who cherish it, and it exerts an influence that spoils the happiness of others. {MM 177.3}

We need to beware of self-pity. Never indulge the feeling that you are not esteemed as you should be, that your efforts are not appreciated, that your work is too difficult. Let the memory of what Christ has endured for us silence every murmuring thought. We are treated better than was our Lord. "Seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not." Jeremiah 45:5. The Lord has no place in His work for those who have a greater desire to win the crown than to bear the cross. He wants men who are more intent upon doing their duty than upon receiving their reward--men who are more solicitous for principle than for promotion. {MH 476.2}

Your self-pity is an injury to you; you sympathize with yourself, feel that you are not esteemed as you should be, that your work is altogether too hard, and your best efforts are unappreciated. These feelings are the result of a spiritual disease, which can be cured only through faith in Christ. The temptation seizes you when you are weary or perplexed; but when the first symptoms appear, and the enemy works to make you grumble and murmur, look unto Jesus, trust in your Saviour. This is the only cure for this spiritual malaria. . . . If you allow your mind to be occupied with these things, the enemy will see that you are kept busy. He puts his magnifying glass before your eyes, and mole hills of difficulty are made to appear as mountains. . . . You need to understand how to repose in God. A wise heart, molded by the Holy Spirit, it is your privilege to have; and this is the foundation of all true happiness. . . . {SD 298.2}

God would have you trust in His love, and be constantly guarding your soul by locking the gate of your thoughts, that they shall not become unmanageable; for when you allow your mind to indulge these thoughts of self-pity, the enemy comes in to suggest the most unkind and unreasonable things in regard to those who would do you good, and only good. {SD 298.3}

Why would other unknown traits be different?

Let's take another example, the one you brought up about spontaneously loving others. Now since you believe a person who is born again may not have this, I expect you believe a person could die and go to heaven without having this, or else being born again would not be sufficient for going to heaven, which I doubt you would assert. So what happens in heaven? Won't this person spontaneously love others? So did his character change?

"Let us not love in word," the apostle writes, "but in deed and in truth." The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within. It is the atmosphere of this love surrounding the soul of the believer that makes him a savor of life unto life and enables God to bless his work. {AA 551.1}

Supreme love for God and unselfish love for one another --this is the best gift that our heavenly Father can bestow. This love is not an impulse, but a divine principle, a permanent power. The unconsecrated heart cannot originate or produce it. Only in the heart where Jesus reigns is it found. "We love Him, because He first loved us." In the heart renewed by divine grace, love is the ruling principle of action. It modifies the character, governs the impulses, controls the passions, and ennobles the affections. This love, cherished in the soul, sweetens the life and sheds a refining influence on all around. {AA 551.2}

John strove to lead the believers to understand the exalted privileges that would come to them through the exercise of the spirit of love. This redeeming power, filling the heart, would control every other motive and raise its possessors above the corrupting influences of the world. And as this love was allowed full sway and became the motive power in the life, their trust and confidence in God and His dealing with them would be complete. They could then come to Him in full confidence of faith, knowing that they would receive from Him everything needful for their present and eternal good. "Herein is our love made perfect," he wrote, "that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear." "And this is the confidence that we have in Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He heareth us: and if we know that He hear us, . . . we know that we have the petitions that we desired of Him." {AA 551.3}

For instance, there was a time in my life I didn't see self-pity as a sin. God brought me to a circumstance which showed me self-pity as part of my character. I had a vague notion it was sinful, but since I was suffering I thought I had the right to indulge it. Today I see it as a sin in a way I didn't see before, but it took me some years to really come to see things in this light.

I'm not sure I understand what you believe about "other unknown traits". In comparing them to your Sabbath example, are you referring to sins of ignorance only? Or, are you also talking about cultivated sinful traits of character?

Let's take another example, the one you brought up about spontaneously loving others. Now since you believe a person who is born again may not have this, I expect you believe a person could die and go to heaven without having this, or else being born again would not be sufficient for going to heaven, which I doubt you would assert. So what happens in heaven? Won't this person spontaneously love others? So did his character change?

Actually, what I said was newborn babes in Christ are not usually born again mature enough to have experience described in the following quote consistently, that they usually backslide from time to time until they gain enough momentum and experience to do it "constantly and spontaneously":

Wouldn't a person with no uncrucified sinful habits be perfect? So aren't you asking if a person who is born again is perfect?

Another way of addressing your question is that you are implying Rosangela wasn't born again at the time this happened. I disagree with this idea.

Wouldn't a person with no uncrucified sinful habits be perfect? So aren't you asking if a person who is born again is perfect?

M:Yes to the first question, and no to the last one.

The entire discussion is in reference to sins of ignorance. For example, Rosangela said she had "a vague notion." This is a reference to a sin of ignorance.

MM: Actually, what I said was newborn babes in Christ are not usually born again mature enough to have the experience described in the following quote consistently, that they usually backslide from time to time until they gain enough momentum and experience to do it "constantly and spontaneously":

TE: So it's not something that the born again person has. So I repeat my questions. What happens in heaven? Does the person in heaven now spontaneously and consistently love others? Is he given a shot of momentum at the resurrection? Does his character change?

1. Any one act, either good or evil, does not form the character; but thoughts and feelings indulged prepare the way for acts and deeds of the same kind. It is . . . by a repetition of acts that habits are established and character confirmed. (CG 199)

2. It is not through one act that the character is formed, but by a repetition of acts that habits are established and character confirmed. (ST 4-30-1894)

3. Character does not come by chance. It is not determined by one out-burst of temper, one step in the wrong direction. It is the repetition of the act that causes it to become habit, and molds the character either for good or for evil. (CG 164)

4. A well-balanced character is formed by single acts well performed. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. (FLB 44)

Regarding the thief on the cross, I agree with EGW's comments. I believe he was converted, but not perfect. For example, I've been discussing cursing on another thread. I described to Arnold a process whereby one goes from cursing to not cursing. I won't repeat it here, as I'm assuming you've seen it (if you want me to post it, I will). It seems likely to me that the thief on the cross would have used cursed words. It seems unlikely to me that he would have at his conversion been instantly changed so that he wouldn't even think of these words.

I wouldn't characterize this as an uncrucified habit though. I would characterize it as something that he would have needed to work on, and which he would have overcome with time, which he didn't have.

TE: Wouldn't a person with no uncrucified sinful habits be perfect? So aren't you asking if a person who is born again is perfect?

MM: Yes to the first question, and no to the last one.

TE: Your question is if people are born again with uncrucified sinful habits. Since you say the answer to the question "Wouldn't a person with no uncrucified sinful habits be perfect?" as "Yes," it's pretty easy to see that your question, "Is a born again person born with uncrucified sinful habits?" is indeed asking if such a person is perfect.

Regarding Rosangela and self-pity, your theology would demand that Rosangela was not converted. I doubt Rosangela would agree with this. You could ask her.

Here's how she stated the matter - "I had a vague notion it was sinful, but since I was suffering I thought I had the right to indulge it." It doesn't sound to me like she was ignorant. Instead, it sounds like she was excusing it.

Character is the result of conscious, repetitious choices and corresponding behavior. This takes time. So, in the case of believers who die the day they experience rebirth, I suppose it is safe to say the character they are resurrected with is limited in comparison to the character Paul will be raised up with. They will gain the momentum and develop the traits of character in heaven they didn't have time to here. But the point is they will not come up with uncrucified sinful traits of character.

I hear her saying one uncrucified defective trait of character closes the gates of heaven. How does this tie in with your idea that people often go into the grave with uncrucified defective traits of character?

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire.(DA 764)

Christianity is intended to be an ever-deepening journey into the heart of God, by which the beholding of His glory gradually transforms the believer into the same character likeness (2 Cor. 3:18). For those who persist in sin to the ruin of their inner capacity to discern and reflect God's love, that fire of divine love which would have cleansed them will, on the day of final reckoning, ignite in their souls a destructive measure of shame and guilt. The glory of Him who is love will be more than the conscience can bear. On the day of unveiled encounter, they will experience psychological and emotional meltdown in God's immediate presence. (Mal. 4:1,2 quoted)

Everyone will eventually meet God in all the radiance of His glorious love. Some will be consumed, while others are healed by the very same encounter. (Shades of Grace 99)

It sounds like you are implying it means reaching a point where it no longer comes into mind, no longer tempts.

My question on this thread is - Will Jesus change our character when He returns?

But, yes, I believe people who experience rebirth in God's appointed way are born again without cultivated sinful traits of character.

True, they are born again with sinful flesh nature, but they are not born again with their former sinful traits of character, that is, they do not practice the same sinful habits they cultivated before they experienced rebirth. "The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man." SD 300.

MM: Here's how she stated the matter - "I had a vague notion it was sinful, but since I was suffering I thought I had the right to indulge it." It doesn't sound to me like she was ignorant. Instead, it sounds like she was excusing it.

TE: Didn't she volunteer this as an example of a sin of ignorance?

MM: Character is the result of conscious, repetitious choices and corresponding behavior. This takes time. So, in the case of believers who die the day they experience rebirth, I suppose it is safe to say the character they are resurrected with is limited in comparison to the character Paul will be raised up with. They will gain the momentum and develop the traits of character in heaven they didn't have time to here. But the point is they will not come up with uncrucified sinful traits of character.

TE: What does "gain momentum" mean? How is what you're saying here different than my position? (You may wish to quote something I've said).

EGW: A well-balanced character is formed by single acts well performed. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City.

MM: I hear her saying one uncrucified defective trait of character closes the gates of heaven. How does this tie in with your idea that people often go into the grave with uncrucified defective traits of character?

TE: Please don't use characterizations like "your idea" without quoting something I've said. It is not my idea that people "often go into the grave with uncrucified defective traits of character." I looked over this entire thread, and don't see myself saying anything even close to this.

I see you used the word "defective" a couple of dozen times. I used it only a couple of times, and always in the context of responding to your use of it. We're clearly dealing with an idea of yours here, not mine. So for you to pass this off as an idea of mine is not cricket.

TE: Regarding the last statement that you are particularly interested in, it seems clear to me that this involves the sin of rebellion. A person is convicted something is contrary to God's principles, and is determined to do this anyway. I believe such behavior ties into this:


Here's a comment by Ty Gibson:




I agree with Ty's explanation here (evidently inspired by DA 764).

TE: Regarding the thief and pure speech, I'm saying it's likely that the thief's speech would have involved bad language, as that was likely to a part of the world in which he lived. He, like other Christians, would have had to learn pure speech.

MM: It sounds like you are implying it means reaching a point where it no longer comes into mind, no longer tempts.

TE: No, I'm not talking about temptation. I'm talking about speech (which can be internal; before one speaks, one thinks of what one is going to say).

"The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man." SD 300.

I would say this clearly refers to known sins. How could unknown sins be put off? They need to be made known, which happens during one's walk with Christ. One needn't be perfect to be born again. One need simply believe in Christ. Then one begins the work toward perfection.

Post quotes where she says people are born again first, and then they begin the gradual process of discovering and putting away the sins they practiced before they were reborn.This is easily shown to be the case, even without quotes.

MM: Here's how she stated the matter - "I had a vague notion it was sinful, but since I was suffering I thought I had the right to indulge it." It doesn't sound to me like she was ignorant. Instead, it sounds like she was excusing it.

T: Didn't she volunteer this as an example of a sin of ignorance?

MM:Here's what she wrote: Don't you think there are things in our lives that we didn't see as sins for a period but that from a certain moment onward we began to see as sins? For instance, there was a time in my life I didn't see self-pity as a sin. God brought me to a circumstance which showed me self-pity as part of my character. I had a vague notion it was sinful, but since I was suffering I thought I had the right to indulge it. Today I see it as a sin in a way I didn't see before, but it took me some years to really come to see things in this light. How would you classify this kind of sin?

MM: I hear her saying one uncrucified defective trait of character closes the gates of heaven. How does this tie in with your idea that people often go into the grave with uncrucified defective traits of character?

TE: Please don't use characterizations like "your idea" without quoting something I've said. It is not my idea that people "often go into the grave with uncrucified defective traits of character." I looked over this entire thread, and don't see myself saying anything even close to this.

I see you used the word "defective" a couple of dozen times. I used it only a couple of times, and always in the context of responding to your use of it. We're clearly dealing with an idea of yours here, not mine. So for you to pass this off as an idea of mine is not cricket.

MM:You didn't answer my question.

MM:I'll rephrase it. Do you agree that one cherished character defect will prevent someone from entering heaven?

Also, as you see it, what is the difference between sinful trait of character and defective trait of character? And, do think people often go into the grave with one but not the other?

MM: Post quotes where she says people are born again first, and then they begin the gradual process of discovering and putting away the sins they practiced before they were reborn.This is easily shown to be the case, even without quotes.

TE: Sabbath-breaking is an example. One doesn't need to become a Sabbath-keeper before one can be born again does one?

TE: This is describing a sin of ignorance. "Don't you think there are things in our lives that we didn't see as sins for a period but that from a certain moment onward we began to see as sins?"

MM: Do you agree that one cherished character defect will prevent someone from entering heaven?

TE: It could.

I think the "Would the person be happy in heaven?" way of thinking of it is better (easier to understand, more to the point).

MM: Post quotes where she says people are born again first, and then they begin the gradual process of discovering and putting away the sins they practiced before they were reborn.This is easily shown to be the case, even without quotes.

T: Sabbath-breaking is an example. One doesn't need to become a Sabbath-keeper before one can be born again does one?

MM:Do you have quotes supporting your claim that 1) ignorantly breaking the Sabbath is viewed by God as a "sinful practice" or a "defective trait of character", and 2) one doesn't need to be a Sabbath-keeper before experiencing rebirth.

T: This is describing a sin of ignorance. "Don't you think there are things in our lives that we didn't see as sins for a period but that from a certain moment onward we began to see as sins?"

MM:I agree. But the example she gave doesn't describe a sin of ignorance. Here's what she wrote: "I had a vague notion it was sinful, but since I was suffering I thought I had the right to indulge it. Today I see it as a sin in a way I didn't see before, but it took me some years to really come to see things in this light. How would you classify this kind of sin?" She didn't know how to classify her example, so she asked.

This is describing a sin of ignorance. "Don't you think there are things in our lives that we didn't see as sins for a period but that from a certain moment onward we began to see as sins?"

I had a vague notion it was sinful, but since I was suffering I thought I had the right to indulge it. Today I see it as a sin in a way I didn't see before, but it took me some years to really come to see things in this light.

Can you think of an example where a cherished character defect will not bar the gates of heaven against them?

T:I think the "Would the person be happy in heaven?" way of thinking of it is better (easier to understand, more to the point).

M:The resurrected sinners will unite with Satan in an attempt to gain control of the New Jerusalem and the New Earth. If God were to simply walk away and let them have their way I suppose they would manage at least as well as they did before the Flood.

Regarding cultivated defective traits of character, if you don't include sins of ignorance as a defective trait of character, then I would agree.

When we are resurrected, we continue to think in our heart in the same manner we did before death. If we love God and His principles, we continue doing so when awakened. Any wrong habits would be ignorant ones. When we learn the truth, we will willingly and eagerly follow it.

T:Regarding cultivated defective traits of character, if you don't include sins of ignorance as a defective trait of character, then I would agree.

M:I'm glad you agree sins of ignorance do not include cultivated sinful traits of character.

T:When we are resurrected, we continue to think in our heart in the same manner we did before death. If we love God and His principles, we continue doing so when awakened. Any wrong habits would be ignorant ones. When we learn the truth, we will willingly and eagerly follow it.

M:Please give examples of "wrong habits" some people will be resurrected with in the first resurrection.

Not keeping the Sabbath is not habit forming if you have no idea about Sabbath. Forming a habit requires conscious choice. Habits result in related traits of character, and character determines our eternal destiny in judgment.

Jesus will not change any habit or its related traits of character when He returns.

Where we differ is which habits you believe do not have to be confessed and crucified before death occurs to be admitted to heaven. You have a long list of sinful habits and traits you believe will not keep resurrected people out of heaven.

You also believe they will simply leave off their habits after Jesus resurrects them and explains to them the truth.

If He can explain it to them after they are resurrected and they willingly give them up, why can't He tell them before they die?

Remember, they go into the grave with the same disposition they come out with.

There is need of a more thorough preparation on the part of candi-dates for baptism. They are in need of more faithful instruction than has usually been given them. The principles of the Christian life should be made plain to those who have newly come to the truth. . . . The line of demarcation will be plain and distinct between those who love God and keep His commandments, and those who love Him not and disregard His precepts. . . .

Satan does not want anyone to see the necessity of an entire surrender to God. When the soul fails to make this surrender, sin is not forsaken; the appetites and passions are striving for the mastery; temptations con-fuse the conscience, so that true conversion does not take place. If all had a sense of the conflict which each soul must wage with satanic agencies that are seeking to ensnare, entice, and deceive, there would be much more diligent labor for those who are young in the faith. . . .

Baptism is a most sacred and important ordinance, and there should be a thorough understanding as to its meaning. It means repentance for sin, and the entrance upon a new life in Christ Jesus. There should be no undue haste to receive the ordinance. . . .

Read to them the teaching of the Bible in regard to conversion. Show what is the fruit of conversion, the evidence that they love God. Show that true conversion is a change of heart, of thoughts and purposes. Evil habits are to be given up. The sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away. A warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character. . . .

The test of discipleship is not brought to bear as closely as it should be upon those who present themselves for baptism. It should be under-stood whether they are simply taking the name of Seventh-day Advent-ists, or whether they are taking their stand on the Lord’s side, to come out from the world and be separate, and touch not the unclean thing. Be-fore baptism there should be a thorough inquiry as to the experience of the candidates. Let this inquiry be made, not in a cold and distant way, but kindly, tenderly, pointing the new converts to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Bring the requirements of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. . . .

All who study the life of Christ and practice His teachings will be-come like Christ. Their influence will be like His. They will reveal soundness of character. As they walk in the humble path of obedience, doing the will of God, they exert an influence that tells for the advance-ment of the cause of God and the healthful purity of His work. In these thoroughly converted souls the world is to have a witness to the sanctify-ing power of truth upon the human character.

The knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ, expressed in character, is an exaltation above everything that is esteemed in earth or in heaven. It is the very highest education. It is the key that opens the portals of the heavenly city. This knowledge it is God’s purpose that all who put on Christ by baptism shall possess. And it is the duty of God’s servants to set before these souls the privilege of their high calling in Christ Jesus. (6T 91-97)

TE: Choosing to keep Sunday is a conscious decision. This is forming the habit of Sunday-keeping.

MM: True. But in light of our current discussion it is not analogous to not keeping the Sabbath.

T: Then I guess heaven will just have to accommodate the Sunday-keepers.

MM: I thought you agreed that sins of ignorance do not count as defective traits of character? The habit of keeping Sunday does not form sinful traits of character, and will not, therefore, keep them out of heaven. Do you agree?

MM:Jesus will not change any habit or its related traits of character when He returns.

T:Then I guess heaven will just have to accommodate the Sunday-keepers.

TE: Because he wasn't aware of it.

MM: Why didn't God reveal it to him before he died?

Do you have an example in mind?

I'm asking you because I cannot think of one. To make things less confusing, let's set the stage for your answer. In the following scenario, what do you think would be an example of a habit that need never be crucified before a person dies, a habit that could wait until after the resurrection to deal with:

MM: Under the following specific circumstances (quoted below), what do you think would be an example of a habit that need never be crucified before a person dies, a habit that could wait until after the resurrection to deal with:


TE: Keeping Sunday instead of Sabbath is an example.

MM: Where we differ is which habits you believe do not have to be confessed and crucified before death occurs to be admitted to heaven. You have a long list of sinful habits and traits you believe will not keep resurrected people out of heaven.

You also believe they will simply leave off these habits after Jesus resurrects them and explains to them the truth. If He can explain it to them after they are resurrected and they willingly give them up, why can't He tell them before they die? Remember, they go into the grave with the same disposition they come out with.

TE: Because he wasn't aware of it.

MM: Why didn't God reveal it to him before he died?

TE: Again this would be easier if you quoted more of the context. Who is "he"? What is "it"?

We are sinners. And we can't take that sin with us to Heaven. But, we ARE saved. That is secured in Jesus. But I would not want to live with the saved in Heaven. There has to be some kind of change in a moment in the twinkling of an eye ... that would make me desire to be with you folks in Heaven.

MM: (Requests an example of) a habit that could wait until after the resurrection to deal with:

T: Keeping Sunday instead of Sabbath is an example.

MM:Tom, you cannot be serious. What makes you think under such thorough indoctrination the Sabbath would not be fully addressed?

"He" refers to the people you say go into the grave with uncrucified sinful habits and traits.

The following insights are powerful:

No conversion is genuine which does not change both the character and the conduct of those who accept the truth. {5BC 1144.2}

A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. {6C 1101.3}

I do not hear Ellen saying - Please understand that this doesn't mean people are born again or converted without their former sinful habits and traits.

What this means is people are born again first and then they begin the slow, gradual process of discovering and crucifying the sinful habits and traits they cultivated before they were reborn.

Do you hear her saying this here or anywhere else?

In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.(MB 77)

By the revelation of the attractive loveliness of Christ, by the knowledge of His love expressed to us while we were yet sinners, the stubborn heart is melted and subdued ... (ibid)

MM: Suddenly? Here's what Ellen wrote about it: "Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

Apparently there is nothing "sudden" about the "long, patient, protracted process" of conversion that ends in rebirth.

1. Which unChristlike habits and traits are revealed, confessed, and crucified during the long, patient, protracted process that ends in rebirth?

2. Which unChristlike habits and traits are overlooked during the long, patient, protracted process that ends in rebirth?

It would seem, Tom, that you and I both agree none of the habits and traits known to be unChristlike by the baptismal candidate are overlooked during the long, patient, protracted process that ends in rebirth.

However, we seem to disagree as to which unChristlike habits and traits are overlooked during the long, patient, protracted process that ends in rebirth, which ones are placed on the back burner, as it were, to be dealt with later on after they are reborn and baptized.

Which unChristlike habits and traits should be overlooked to be dealt with later on?

MM: . . . which unChristlike habits and traits are overlooked during the long, patient, protracted process that ends in rebirth, which ones are placed on the back burner, as it were, to be dealt with later on after they are reborn and baptized.

TE: . . . I think that many could be overlooked.

MM: Which unChristlike habits and traits should be overlooked to be dealt with later on?

TE: This is assuming some should be overlooked. Are you talking about the Holy Spirit here, or someone preparing someone else for baptism?

Let's focus on people who are properly indoctrinated in accordance with the baptismal counsel described in the SOP. At what point should they be taught how to think and live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs - 1) before they are baptized, or 2) sometime afterward?

There is need of a more thorough preparation on the part of candidates for baptism. They are in need of more faithful instruction than has usually been given them. The principles of the Christian life should be made plain to those who have newly come to the truth. . . . The line of demarcation will be plain and distinct between those who love God and keep His commandments, and those who love Him not and disregard His precepts. . . .

Satan does not want anyone to see the necessity of an entire surrender to God. When the soul fails to make this surrender, sin is not forsaken; the appetites and passions are striving for the mastery; temptations confuse the conscience, so that true conversion does not take place. If all had a sense of the conflict which each soul must wage with satanic agencies that are seeking to ensnare, entice, and deceive, there would be much more diligent labor for those who are young in the faith. . . .

Baptism is a most sacred and important ordinance, and there should be a thorough understanding as to its meaning. It means repentance for sin, and the entrance upon a new life in Christ Jesus. There should be no undue haste to receive the ordinance. . . . Read to them the teaching of the Bible in regard to conversion. Show what is the fruit of conversion, the evidence that they love God. Show that true conversion is a change of heart, of thoughts and purposes. Evil habits are to be given up. The sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away. A warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character. . . .

The test of discipleship is not brought to bear as closely as it should be upon those who present themselves for baptism. It should be understood whether they are simply taking the name of Seventh-day Adventists, or whether they are taking their stand on the Lord’s side, to come out from the world and be separate, and touch not the unclean thing. Before baptism there should be a thorough inquiry as to the experience of the candidates. Let this inquiry be made, not in a cold and distant way, but kindly, tenderly, pointing the new converts to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Bring the requirements of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. . . .

All who study the life of Christ and practice His teachings will become like Christ. Their influence will be like His. They will reveal soundness of character. As they walk in the humble path of obedience, doing the will of God, they exert an influence that tells for the advancement of the cause of God and the healthful purity of His work. In these thoroughly converted souls the world is to have a witness to the sanctifying power of truth upon the human character.

The knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ, expressed in character, is an exaltation above everything that is esteemed in earth or in heaven. It is the very highest education. It is the key that opens the portals of the heavenly city. This knowledge it is God’s purpose that all who put on Christ by baptism shall possess. And it is the duty of God’s servants to set before these souls the privilege of their high calling in Christ Jesus. (6T 91-97)

Suppose the person hasn't read all those quotes, especially compiled together as they are in your post?

Rosangela, please bear in mind I am referring to someone who is properly prepared for baptism in accordance with Ellen's counsel.

MM do you think a born again person is perfect? (i.e. has no sin, does not sin) I don't mean knowing doing something contrary to he knows is right, but unknown sin. That is, if a person is properly indoctrinated, do you believe such a person, being born again, will have no sin?