Soul and Body sleep

People wrote in to a Christian website asking if the doctrine of soul sleep was Biblical or a "heresy".

The answer said it was "heresy", yet we belief it is true and Biblical -- "the dead know not anything" they are not alive floating around without a body.

How would you answer the arguments given by this Christian doctor, from the "College of the Open Bible"?

Can we open the Bible with good responses?

I have never gotten into many of the state of the dead debates. However, I think the first thing I would do is point out that the conclusion drawn at the end of parable in Luke 16 has nothing to do with the state of dead. It has to do with whether or not people are going to accept or reject truth. The conclusion of the parable actually teaches that no matter what happens some people will never accept what scripture teaches. Then I would point out to whom this was addressed and how the Jewish leaders were denying Christ. In other words, give context to the parable.

That would sort of be my starting point. I'll have to give it more thought, but that's my first inclination. I don't think I would even attempt to try to start the refutation of all he said in one post. I would tackle it piece-by-piece. Otherwise there is too much room for ducking and dodging and just ignoring anything you say that is hard for them to answer and so deflection away from those points would be the first way to avoid them.

Make sense to you?

One other thing I would point out is that there is no need for a spirit to drink water. Only the human body would require water, yet his argument is that the body is dead. This is a logical contradiction contained in his own argument.

Dear Dr. Arthur Belanger,

When studying Bible doctrines, it is important to look at the message of all of the Bible's texts on a topic to avoid misinterpreting based on a single text that might otherwise appear to have a unique message. It is also helpful, to avoid strange doctrines, to look carefully at the context of the outlier texts to make sure we have not misunderstood their intent, or inferred a private interpretation from them.

Beginning with 2 Corinthians 5:8, the word "body" used there is also used throughout the New Testament to refer to the church, the body of Christ, of which each individual member is but part (see Romans 12:4-5).

For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. (Romans 12:4-5, KJV)

Knowing that "body" can have more than one usage in Paul's writings, let us be careful to understand what the Bible teaches in other places before jumping to conclusions.

First, what is "soul"? The Hebrew word for soul is nephesh, meaning a living being with breath.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7, KJV)

The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. (Job 33:4, KJV)

Paul, in the New Testament, works from the same definition.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45, KJV)

How could one continue to breathe without a body? In fact, the Bible teaches that in death, breathing ceases.

Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. (Psalms 104:29, KJV)

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Psalms 146:4, KJV)

So, the breath is lost in death. What else does the Bible teach about death?

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. (Psalms 115:17, KJV)

If we were present with the Lord in death, would we not praise Him?

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, KJV)

If we were present with the Lord in death, would we not know it and take comfort by it? Would we not love God? But, according to the Bible, dead people no longer have thoughts or knowledge, no longer praise God, no longer have either love or hatred.

Death is called a sleep in the Bible.

Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death; (Psalms 13:3, KJV)

Jesus taught that death was a sleep as well, thus comforting His disciples with the knowledge that He could wake the dead from their sleep. This concept appears in all four of the Gospels.

He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. (Matthew 9:24, KJV)

And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. (Mark 5:39, KJV)

And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. (Luke 8:52, KJV)

Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. (John 11:13, KJV)

And Paul also refers to death as a sleep.

Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. (Ephesians 5:14, KJV)

The Bible teaches that the dead lie in their unconscious state until the resurrection, of which there are two: the resurrection of life, and the resurrection of damnation.

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:29, KJV)

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:5-6, KJV)

Therefore, we conclude that to die is to enter a state of unconsciousness, like sleep, where one has no knowledge of his or her surroundings. The dead in Christ await the coming of the Lord to be raised with new, incorruptible bodies; while the wicked dead await the second resurrection to receive their punishment.

Sincerely,

Green Cochoa.

Thank-you Green, for giving some thoughtful, Bible answers to the question.

We have been warned that "spiritualism" with supposed contact with the dead, will be a major, deceptive problem in the time of the end.
So we need to have our feet firmly planted on this subject.

Good suggestion -- to start with the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16.

Defining the audience:
It was a parable told to unbelieving Jewish leaders.

The concluding sentence is interesting:

" If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Why does Jesus switch the storyline from "send Lazarus" to warn them, as this Lazarus was depicted as being in Abraham's bosom --

to

"neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." ?

Jesus told this parable using the name "Lazarus" because shortly thereafter, one would be raised from the dead with that name, as a witness to "warn" those alive at the time.

No -- it's not the same "Lazarus", the first was simply a parable, but the Lazarus who was raised, was a real man. But it proved the point of the parable.

Jesus' raising of Lazarus back to life marked a turning point. Some of the Jews who witnessed this miracle reported it to the Pharisees, who called a meeting of the Sanhedrin. They began to plot Jesus' murder.

Rather than acknowledging Jesus as the Messiah because of this miracle, the chief priests also plotted to kill Lazarus to destroy the proof of Jesus' divinity.


Here is the parable -- there are many more points for discussion in it.

Good point.

There are a few other physical references in the passage.
lift up his eyes, without a body one won't have eyes
being in torments, without a body one would have no nerves to feel
dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue
Without a body one would have no finger or tongue.

Job 7:7-10;

7) O remember that my life [is] wind: mine eye shall no more see good.
8) The eye of him that hath seen me shall see me no [more]: thine eyes [are] upon me, and I [am] not.
9) [As] the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no [more].
10) He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

The Bible is clear that there isn't any kind of limbo condition of the body. It is gone and will not rise up and go to his house or home anymore.

The Spirit Returns to God-- some see this to mean a disembodied, but still a living, conscious form of the person returns to God at death.

The following is taken from "Seventh-day Adventists believe" Chapter 25.

Job 10:20-22;

20) [Are] not my days few? cease [then, and] let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,
21) Before I go [whence] I shall not return, [even] to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
22) A land of darkness, as darkness [itself; and] of the shadow of death, without any order, and [where] the light [is] as darkness. (bold emphasis mine)

I find it quite telling that Bible writers never talk about any existence in death or the grave. Never do they say our body is in the grave, but, my life or soul is in Heaven or paradise.

Yet, some Christians claim some kind of limbo or something anyway.

Soul

The word "soul" is translated from the Hebrew word "nephesh" 473 times in our English Bibles.

The word "nephesh" occurs 745 times.
Besides the 473 times it's translated as "soul" it is also translated as
life or lives -- 120 times
person -- 30 times
mind -- 16 times
heart -- 15 times
creature -- 9 times
will -- 4 times
as well as other words in one or two places like "fish" "thing" "beast" "desire"

It is never said to be immortal in any of these hundreds of uses. Nor is there any indication that a soul is disembodied living identity.
In the Old Testament a mortal is a living soul rather than having a soul. Instead of splitting a person into two or three parts, Hebrew thought sees a unified being, but one that is profoundly complex.

The New Testament has the word Greek word "psuche"
It occurs 105 times
Translated as
soul -- 58 times
life or lives -- 40 times
also translated a few times as "mind" "heart" "us" "you"

Again the concept of immortality is lacking from all these occurrences of the word "soul".

Yes, the book of Job has quite a bit to say about death. Thanks for sharing these verses.

Here are some more:


Job 17
17:13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
17:14 I have said to corruption, Thou [art] my father: to the worm, [Thou art] my mother, and my sister.
17:15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together [is] in the dust.



Job 14:12 "So man lies down, and rises not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."

Job 14:21 "His sons come to honour, and he knows it not; and they are brought low, but he perceives it not of them."


Job also believed in the resurrection at the end of the world.

Job
19:25 For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth:
19:26 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:
19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; [though] my reins be consumed within me.

The Catholic Church announced that keeping the cremated remains of loved ones in one's home, or spreading the ashes somewhere in nature, is not allowed.
The ashes of cremated dead must be buried in a sacred place -- as in a cemetery.

Among other reasons --
the Vatican links this to the general Christian belief of the resurrection of the body. (A belief quite different from our belief in the resurrection of the person unto life)
In that belief -- the spirits of the dead, who are "with the Lord" will someday -- at the great judgment day, return with Christ and be rejoined with their resurrected bodies.

The document states:
"To rise with Christ, we must die with Christ: we must “be away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Cor 5:8)....
By death the soul is separated from the body, but in the resurrection God will give incorruptible life to our body, transformed by reunion with our soul....
The Church who, as Mother, has accompanied the Christian during his earthly pilgrimage, offers to the Father, in Christ, the child of her grace, and she commits to the earth, in hope, the seed of the body that will rise in glory....
When the deceased notoriously has requested cremation and the scattering of their ashes for reasons contrary to the Christian faith, a Christian funeral must be denied to that person according to the norms of the law."


Well there you have it.

The false theory of separation of the soul from the body.
The great glorious hope of the resurrection, it is said, isn't really an awakening from the dead unto life, but a mere rejoining of the soul that has already rejoiced for countless years in the presence of the Lord, just coming back to enter a resurrected body.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Why would this be such a glorious hope????
Why look forward to Christ's glorious appearing in hope, shouldn't it say -- looking forward to dying so we can be with Christ?
But no -- our glorious hope of life after death is intimately connected with Christ's glorious appearing.

Our hope of life is in Christ raising us unto life at the last day!

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which has sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

When Jesus says something three times -- it is important! In His discourse of eternal life for believers there in John chapter six, He makes it very clear that He will raise them up at the last day -- and Paul explains its,when the trumpet shall sound and the dead in Christ will be raised incorruptible! (1 Cor 15:52)



Also is our resurrection subject to where or how we are buried?
I think not. Our resurrection is subject to our relationship with Christ --
It is not the same molecules that went into the grave that will rise.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So the whole theory that souls are in heaven with the Lord, waiting to come back to earth to re-inhabit their earthly bodies is false.

At the resurrection the PERSON is raised from the dead in a NEW incorruptible, spiritual body!




In the document there is also mention of praying for the dead and to the dead saints. Yet scripture says:

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

If the Bible is saying the dead can't affect anything that happens here on earth. Why are people still praying to these dead saints when the dead can't hear them?

Why is it important to understand that death is a sleep --
body and soul utterly unconscious awaiting the resurrection?



It is a safe guard against the spiritualism that is to take the world captive.

Spiritualism is receiving communications from the realms of the fallen angels, whose chief purpose is to defeat God in saving you and me.

We are in perilous times. God, in love for us has marked out the pitfalls that we need not be snared by them! One of the warnings concerns a great danger of being deceived by the
work of Satan now manifested in Spiritualism.

The facts of the physical manifestations are real. Thousands have been convinced by the manifestations of power alone. Apparitions appear, be they departed saints, departed loved ones, or some departed person who lived thousands of years ago. Some will dictate whole messages to their human "slave", some will apparently heal the sick.
The Scriptures say that in the latter times some will depart from
the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils; and many even among those who believed that the Bible is the word of God, end up rejecting the doctrines of the Bible for the teachings of these deceptive spirits.

Look at the crowds flocking to see "mary" appear in various places. Not just Catholics, but also protestants, Muslims and others who seek a human "mother" goddess. Mary, supposed "queen of heaven", the one that claims to "sign people" with her special seal, and be the channel by which people can reach her "son", bringing countless messages to people. Who is she? No, this is not the "Mary" of scripture. This is the blaspheming spirits of demons claiming the position of Christ.

There are numerous other spirits whose messages have been recorded -- spirits claiming to be some departed person.

These spirits will use the pain of loosing a loved one, to insert themselves into the grieving person's life by appearing as their lost loved one.

Also, be not deceived by their use of scripture. These spirits know the scripture -- but they twist them for their own use.
For example, we have the 'gifts of the spirit" in 1 Cor.12, we know this is talking about the Holy Spirit giving gifts for the furtherance of God's message. But the spirits claim that Paul is talking about them --the spirit of faith brings faith, the spirit of healing brings healing -- totally twisting the scripture.

Neither are angels, departed loved ones.
The angels were there before mankind was created.

There's much spiritualistic material being taught and changing the whole paradigm of human thought, we need to be anchored in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, and His Word, it is the only place of safety!

Are anchored?
If some apparition claiming to Paul, or Peter appeared in our society and started preaching, telling us what they actually meant in scripture and that it was different from what we believe -- what would we believe?

If some apparition claiming to be Ellen White showed up at the GC or at our campmeetings or other large gatherings and started preaching with power -- again redefining the meaning of her written words, what would we believe?

Spiritualism is based upon the first doctrine that the devil
ever taught to man, "Ye shall not surely die." Since that time the immortality of mankind, or endless life in sin, has been his favorite doctrine.

One thing is certain -- those fallen angels -- the spirits of devils do not have people's best interest in mind. They will lure people with promises only to destroy. They are still in the business of destroying God's creation -- and preventing Christ's redemption to reach as many people as possible.

In Job 34:14-15, a passage that reads much like Eccl. 12:7, we don't see any mention of the dead "spirits" living with God in Heaven or paradise. All the dead, "all flesh", return to the dust.

I find this a very comforting message. Rest from our labors.

Amen dedication.

Spiritualism is always about destroying God's creation and God alone is about saving fallen mankind. We all need to gird up our minds with the truths of God's Word.