Bible Questions & Answers / Facts That We Can All Agree With

I woke up this morning thinking about the Bible and all the information contained therein, and wondered what information / facts the Bible has given us that we can hopefully all agree with?

I, therefore, decided to create this topic and ask some questions to see what happens.

I am going to begin at the beginning of the Bible and ask the following simple question:

1 - Who created everything including the world in which we live?

Better ask the question a little differently. Everything includes the computer hosting this site...

Who created sin?

1 Corinthians 8:6-7 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (7) However, there is not in every man that knowledge:

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world has been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Who created all things?

God created everything that was created.

People take what God has created and MAKE things using what God created. Everything that mankind MAKES is made with ingredients that God created.

God created mankind with a brain that can chose and plan and MAKE things. Mankind can make and devise things, but they cannot create in the sense that God created, everything a person has, or makes, is dependent on what God has provided.




Who created sin?

Sin was NOT created, sin was a choice to use the things that God created in a self centered, anti-god way.
Lucifer was created by God a perfect being in all his ways.
Lucifer CHOSE to use the gifts God had given him, to exalt himself and rebel against God.

Mankind perpetuates sin, as they CHOOSE to use the gifts of God -- their strength, intellect, and the things around them, for their own self centered means and anti-god ways.

In the second Presidential Debate of the 2012 US General Elections between President Obama and Governor Mitt Romney, the moderator, Candy Crowley, asked President Obama:

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  "Your Secretary of State, as I'm sure you know, has said that she takes full responsibility for the attack on the Diplomatic Mission in Benghazi. Does the buck stop with your Sectretary of State as far as what went on here?"
  
  To that, President Obama, clearly, deliberately and distinctly replied:
  
  "Secretary Clinton has done an extraordinary job. But she works for me. I'm the President. And I'm always responsible."

Those words so gravely uttered echo the sentiments expressed in the Bible in God's own conversation with Job. "I made everything," God assured Job, "and I take full responsibility for all the good and the bad; even the actions of the most cruel and heartless animals. The buck stops at My Throne." But God goes further than President Obama. "Anything that happens," He said, "is a reflection of My will. I control ALL things: how far they go in whatever they do!" As Jesus tells us, "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father." Mat. 10:29

You asked, "Who created everything including the world in which we live?" The obvious answer is God, of course; but what is not so obvious, unless it had been revealed to us through His word, is that He is actively engaged in our lives, really sharing life with us and directing its course for our sake. Our God is not a watch maker who has wound it up and left it to run until it dies. Rather, we have a Father in heaven and all that that paternal title entails in perfect love. Amazing, really. We are children of the King! Nobody may believe me, but I'm a Prince.

Now having said that, implied in the conversation between God and Job (and immediately apparent in the debate) is that though leaders bear responsibility for everything under their watch, they themselves, having delegated work, do not actually do everything.

All things were created by God; but not everything is His creation.

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"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father." Matthew 10:29 NIV84

Hm - is it the will of the Father that a sparrow fall? Nope.

Matthew 10:29 What is the price of two sparrows—one copper coin? But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it.

Interesting thoughts! It's true -- we can have faith that no matter what happens, God is in control.
God has the power to stop evil, but for His own reasons allows it to demonstrate it's course and consequences. Yet, He is in control -- thus far and no further, so much of our peace and safety is a direct result of God's protective hand.

He is still in control, and we can claim the promise "All things work together for good, to them that love the Lord."

He Himself has taken the penalty of sin upon Himself -- at the cross. Talk about taking responsibility!

Yet, the book of Job also points out the enemy. The evil one who orchestrated the disasters upon Job, was not God. It was Satan. Yet, Satan could do nothing to Job without God's permission.


God never desired sin. He never willed it to take place. He hates sin and sorrows over the misery and ruin it has brought.
But He gave intelligence and free will to His created beings, and sin is permitted to run its course to show how truly evil it really is.
In contrast -- God's ways are perfect, beautiful and good.

What will our choice be? That is the question we each must answer.

A thought provoking statement.

Question #1 - Who created everything including the world in which we live?

The obvious answer that we can all agree with is that Jesus Christ created everything including the world in which we live.

This means that Christ created the universe and everything in it, heaven, the angels, etc. before He created this world and all the plants and animals and ultimately also created Adam and then, using a rib from Adam, He created Eve. All other life in this world was then procreated from already existing life. All other things, including the computer server that runs this forum's software, was made from objects, etc. already in existence.

Let's try another question that we can, hopefully, agree upon based on the revealed Bible facts:

Question #2 - According to the Bible, how many days did Christ take to create this world?

Six literal days were spent creating this world. Piece by piece, everything in its order, with the greatest care for even the smallest things but still an overarching unity across all creation. A masterpiece such that God saw that "it was very good."

Amen!
Creation is a master piece -- even now in it's "spoiled" condition, the hand of a master can still be seen everywhere.
And when one considers all the billions of delicately balanced systems that sustain life on this planet it is truly a marvel! Only a God of great wisdom could create such a master piece.

I agree.

"For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them ..." Exod. 20:11

For me, a beautiful woman is the symbol of the crown of glory on God's handiwork. But that's just me.

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Yes, this earth was created in six literal days. When we look carefully at the Genesis account, in Hebrew or even in English, it is clear that the wording is constructed in such a way that anyone would recognize it was six literal (24-hour) days. There's the emphases on light being called “day” and the darkness is called “night.” And there was evening and there was morning, and that was a day. This was repeated on the second day, the third day, right through to the sixth day.


Then we come to the Sabbath in Genesis two.
Six days He created, the seventh day God rested and bless the DAY.
The word "day" is repeated three times in the Sabbath passage.

Then we read in Exodus 20, for in six days God created... but rested the seventh DAY -- remember the Sabbath DAY.

The Bible is clear that everything was created in SIX days and that the last (and in my own estimation, the best) thing God did was to create a woman, companion for the man.

The Bible says that when Adam saw her, he had a heart attack. It says that he exclaimed, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh! She shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." The Bible says he never fully recovered and died 930 years later.

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Sorry, another question needs qualification. Six days for creation of life on this world. However, the world, earth, terra firma, was already in existence prior to the Genesis account.

I know a LOT of people think that way, but God Himself said plainly, in reference to the Genesis account that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Gen. 1:1 ... that:

"For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them ..." Exod. 20:11

See? IN SIX DAYS HE MADE:

1. the heavens,
2. the earth,
3. the sea,

AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.

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He did not say, IN SIX DAYS HE MADE:

ALL THAT IS IN:

1. the heavens,
2. the earth, and
3. the sea.

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James, could you show from the first chapter of Genesis using God's definition of what "heavens" and "earth" are?

As I'm seeing it, the word "earth" in verse 1 must mean this planet, because verse 2 then immediately says "And the earth" while describing everything as covered by water. Verse 2 appears to be referring to the same use of earth in verse 1, but if the word earth meant land then it wouldn't fit the context of verse 2.

We might consider that the sun and moon were also created during the creation week.

So ia anybody here questioning the literal six day creation story of Genesis 1???

OK, since you mentioned it...

The Adventist Young Earth physicist/quantum cosmologist Russell Humphreys has an interesting theory. Actually two theories, or rather one theory that morphed into a second (ish).

He was concerned with the problem of starlight and time, in that we can easily observe stars that are millions of light years away, yet according to the Genesis account the earth is thought to be 7-10 thousand years old. So how does one account for the large discrepancy in timelines.

Now I'm not a physicist or a cosmologist but his writing makes for very interesting reading. His theory is well supported, and he cites other physicists and cosmologists extensively. He also cites Scripture for support. He also has a lot of opposition.

Some time around 2007-8 he toured Canada with It Is Written, and I went to one of his lectures.

Basically, he postulates that time is a substance and is not constant in its "passing." "Time" is a product of gravitational waves and the speed of light, which on Earth are constant, hence we think of time as constant. Since neither were "constant" in the first milliseconds of the creation of the cosmos, time itself fluctuated in various parts of the cosmos.

Er...Something like that...

Actually it was not Humphreys who toured with IIW but Daniel Lazich, another scientist who studies these and related things.

That's interesting, though I don't know much about gravitational waves. It seems that there's a lack of consensus among physicists about what time even is, or how to define it. I've heard that time is movement, but after looking it up there's people pointing out the problem with a definition that involves the thing being defined. Time being movement over time seems odd.

One thing we know is that the creation of this world was not the beginning of all existence. "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? ... When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:4,7)



In the way that I view things I'm assuming three things: that the speed of light really is constant, that objects throughout the universe are at the distances claimed, and that at the creation of the universe God didn't also create light already mid journey from every source of light. Any of those could be wrong.

If these are the case, and all of the universe was made 6000 years ago, we shouldn't be able to see anything more than 6000 light years away yet. Not only that, but Adam and Eve would have looked up to a completely starless night sky for the first few years. All throughout human history the amount of stars in the sky would be constantly increasing noticeably, including right now, as their light finally reaches us for the first time.

Since we can see things that are supposed to be billions of light years away, and keeping with the above assumptions, it seems that the universe as a whole is far older than this world.



I view the part of Genesis 1 that says the stars were made as referring to the planets of this solar system, which ancient peoples did refer to as wandering stars.

The fourth day involves the sun, moon, and stars. So, if you regard those stars as our nearby planets, it neatly fits as a day of creating all of the objects in this solar system besides the Earth.

What about heavens? For when the earth or life on the earth was created has no bearing on when the stars millions of light years away were created.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Before creation week, the earth was. It was covered by water. So the earth existed before creation week.

Here's another question that I think we can agree with:

Who tempted Eve?

For the most part I believe that Satan/the Devil/the Accuser used some form of early serpent/snake/dragon to interact with Eve resulting in her/their downfall. Much like the story suggests.

However, that being said, I believe that the story, although containing elements of truth or even factual occurrence, is highly allegorical. Close examination reveals too many logical questions to accept it sine quaestione. This has never really bothered me; what "actually happened" in the Garden doesn't change my reality. Nor the work of Christ. Man fell. God redeemed him. End of story.

What are some of the "many logical questions"?

To pursue that question is not really the intent of this thread, and I would rather not hijack the current discussion.

If you are really interested in the Eve/snake/tree story perhaps begin another thread.

Eve was tempted by "that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world" (Rev. 12:9)

Genesis 3:4-5 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:.. you shall be as gods"
John 8:44 The devil...he is a liar, and the father of it.


Lucifer became the devil BEFORE the six day creation week. He was already lurking in the tree of good and evil (his only access to the newly created humans) right from the start of their existence.

There are things in the universe that greatly predate the creation of our little area in the universe.

• Gen. 2:1 says "Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished." God had made the birds, the fish, the animals and two human beings, in that order. How then to explain our lost predicament? We disobeyed God. That should be enough, shouldn't it? If you do what is wrong, you get punished by the person who told you not to do something. And our punishment was "separation" from God. We can't ordinarily see Him nor hear His voice. Like insufferable teenagers, we were cast out of the House of God.
   
• Remarkably however, though that is a reasonable and adequate explanation, only in the Bible do we find something more. Our first parents, in their innocence, were deceived into disobedience. They did not just simply disobey; they were deliberately persuaded by someone else to act contrariwise.
  
  The question is who? There were only the birds, the fish, the animals and two human beings. Well, the Bible says one of the animals did it: the serpent, ("more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made"). Notice, it did not just say that the serpent did it. It says that the serpent, the animal responsible, was more cunning than any other beast. The animal itself of itself possessed the wherewithal and gumption to do something as "clever" as that. How do monkeys know how to peel and eat bananas, and how do certain species of birds figure out how to attract a mate by decorating their nest? The serpent was highly intelligent already.
   
• So, to answer your question, the serpent tempted Eve.
  
  It is only from God's words when He drove Adam and Eve out of the Garden and in the warning He gave to Cain, later in Genesis, that we begin to get some idea that there is a realm beyond our material world, invisible to our eyes and inaudible to our ears, that has beings more than capable of manipulating our thoughts and actions if we allow it; and not only ours apparently, but of the animals too (though them "without consent").
  
  
  Originally Posted By: Gen. 4:6-8

  So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.
  
  Who was behind Cain to deceive his brother so that his righteous brother would die? Now we, dwelling in the light, do see and know.
  
  John 8:44
  
  

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Even further...who put the tree of knowledge and the serpent there at the first place?

And plus -- without any guard rope, hi-fence, or something to prevent innocent freshly created people who hadn't experienced much yet.... to go to the tree where the serpent is ready to tempt them?

Indeed, God assumes responsibility for all things; but that does not mean that He means for us to be tempted, to sin or to die. Jesus told Nicodemus that God loves the world so much that He provided a way out of our hopelessness, a way of salvation for those who would believe in Him; John 3:16.

God's loathing to destroy anything has caused sin to prosper in the land, as it was said of Abel's murderer, "... the Lord set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him" Gen. 4:15. Further, 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise [of judgment against wickedness], as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

And so the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was representative of the evil already present in the universe.

God's commandment is this: Though evil may abound everywhere around you, "do not walk in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stand in the path of sinners, nor sit in the seat of the scornful ... [for they will be] like the chaff which the wind drives away," Psalm 1.

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I've heard words like that before! "The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat." "Why didst Thou create the serpent? Why didst Thou suffer him to enter Eden?"--these were the questions implied in her excuse for her sin. Blame God!

It is true that Gos assumes all responsibility and provided a way for salvation. But I disagree that He didn't mean for us to be tempted. If He didn't He wouldn't of put that tree and the serpent without any guards in the midst of the garden for A&E to be tempted.

I agree with your first post on this subject that the devil tempted Eve (& us). Lying, deceiving is the devil's job that he was created for (John 8:44 "He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.") From that text I get that the truth was never in the devil to start with...so he cannot do anything else but lie.

God needed the devil to bring about His plan of salvation that He put in place before He created this world. God knows the end from the beginning.

Also in His wisdom, He knew what was necessary for A&E to grow in understanding of all His laws by which they did not know when created. For sure the Holy Spirit could of taught them all His laws as they experienced life from day to day. But that's not what His wisdom foresaw as necessary...God needed the devil and that's why He placed the devil in the tree in the midst of the garden without any guards to prevent A&E to approach it.


I would reword your statement to replace "evil" with "ignorance". Lack of knowing God's ways and laws is the reason for our falls and being so easily deceived by the devil.

I'm glad you said the above because most denominations including Adventists, puts much of the blame on A&E however puts the devil ultimately responsible for A&E fall while giving a blind eye to God's responsibility in this.

Yes I agree that God is ultimately responsible for what happened at the beginning BECAUSE He is the Creator of the devil. The Creator is ultimately responsible for whatever His creation does.

That is written in His own laws of liability found in Ex 21:28-36. According to His own law, if an ox had already gore(kill) someone before, it is the owner's responsibility to kill or contain that ox. But if he doesn't and that ox kills someone else....then the owner of the ox must die. Satan(the equivalent of the ox) had already caused some angels to fall in heaven before the A&E incident. So it was God's responsibility to contain satan before he goes and kills others. But God did not do this.... but instead put the devil in the midst of the garden without anything guarding that tree and preventing A&E from going there. So in essence God created a dangerous pit that A&E could fall into and did not cover it. (see Ex 21:33-34)

Now on the surface it seems that God is irresponsible...but no He is not in the least bit. As I said He needed the devil for His plan of salvation and that's why He set it all up as He did. God fulfilled the judgment of His own laws (the owner of the bull must die) by taking full responsibility for A&E fall by dying on the cross. But the law also stipulates that whoever falls in the dangerous pit becomes His. So A&E is His forever possession twice as they were by creation before they fell in the pit.

God is fulfilling all aspects of His own laws as Jesus said "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Mat 5:18

I just wanted to add some clarification to some of my statements.


Notice that in my post I wrote "devil" with a small "d". I have studied the question of who is the devil and if he's an angel. He may be some form of spirit??? I still don't know and it's been awhile I have revisited that study. He is the leader of the fallen angels...yes...but that doesn't mean he's an angel himself. So I'm in the dark about that question and more studying is needed.

But relating to other questions regarding satan -- the devil.... I wondered where else in the book of Job is satan address besides in chapter 1 & 2. The closest I found was in chapter 41 when God talks about the Leviathan -- the sea serpent.

Another question I had : Was Satan blamed anywhere in the book of Job? No. I couldn't find one word. The only thing we find in chapter 41 is how God knows the Leviathan and how this monster is under His control.

Then we find in the last chapter the following important piece of info :

1. God takes all the blame for what happened to Job : Job 42:11 "Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold."

2. and God pays double restitution for all Job's lost by doubling all that he had at the beginning. (Job 42:12) This is another fulfillment of the law. If someone takes your possession away, double restitution needs to be paid. (Ex 22:4)

My understanding :

So since the devil is not blamed no where in the book of Job; then we read that God takes the blame and is the one to pay the restitution ....to me it is because He is ultimately responsible for whatever happened even thought satan did the deeds. Satan is His creation (whatever form he got) and God is responsible for all that he does.



I've added the clarification in bracket inside the text above. I also wanted to make clear, we also have the work of the Holy Spirit that teaches us the truth. But the devil is also there for our areas of ignorance.

Let's make a distinction between the two: The Holy Spirit speaks to our spiritual man that was conceived in us; whereas the devil speaks to our brain...minds -- the soulish minds that is.

Paul describes the soulish mind in 1Co 2:14

"But the natural [G5591 psychikos] man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Paul uses the word "Psychikos" of the root "psyche" that means soul. So Paul is saying that our soulish minds cannot understand the Spirit of God.....only our spiritual man can understand the Spirit of God..... That's a very important fact of our being we must know. We are body, soul(mind), and spirit(1 Th 5:23). The body is submitted to our soul(mind) and our mind should be submitted to our spirit. So when A&E fell at the temptation it was at the level of their minds(soul) that this sin occur.

So since Paul says in 1Cor 2:14 our natural minds cannot understand spiritual things...then it shouldn't make decision nor it is it's function to do so. It is our spirit that should make the decisions because it receives the word from the Holy Spirit. Our spirit never can sin because it is born of God(1Jn 3:9).

Now the question is...was A&E born of God before they sinned? The creation account given in Gen 2:7 is that A&E were created a living soul. Notice that the word "breath" in that text is not from ruach but neshamah (that means breath, soul--intellect). The Bible doesn't tell us; so I don't know this answer yet. If they were born of God before, then their spiritual man was only a babe (a conceived seed) at the time of the fall.


I just wanted to say to James that was a good point he made by saying evil or ignorance (evil is a result of our ignorance of who God is and His ways) was already present in the universe.

God said "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." According to Eve herself, she was told "Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

This was a law, and there was nothing to misunderstand. God did not fail to inform Adam and Eve of the danger or result. There was no pit uncovered.

Judas was with Jesus for years, heard the sermons, saw the miracles, and knew everything that Peter knew to say that Jesus was the Son of God. This did not stop him from selling Jesus out. It was not ignorance. It was stubborn refusal to change and flee his own sin of covetousness. Judas had already seen the transformative work of Christ in John who had been called a son of thunder but then later confessed to Jesus that he had jealously forbidden a man from casting out devils in the name of Jesus. Judas made a fully informed choice to cling to his sin.

You're accusing God of ultimately being the reason why people sin. You're saying it's Jesus's fault that we sinned, and that Jesus died not as a ransom for our sins, but as punishment for His own sin. If this were the case, Jesus would not have been without blemish as the Bible says, and He would have simply stayed in the tomb for all eternity.

The sacrifice of Jesus was voluntary. "Therefore doth my Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of My Father." The life of Jesus was not taken, it was not demanded by a law that was against Him. He was an innocent victim that, of His own self, laid down His life. The option was there that Jesus could have wiped the bloody sweat from His brow and left us to our deserved condemnation. As one thief confessed, "Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss."

What you need to understand is that there is a great controversy between God and Satan, who accuses God of being a tyrant whose laws cannot be kept and that bribes people into obedience. This is not the case. Both angels, as Satan was before his fall, and humans were given the freewill to obey or to refuse. God did not create the devil as the devil. If that was the case, how could God condemn the devil for doing what you say he was made for? This is a picture of an arbitrary and contradicting God that gives a command and chastises when the command is carried out. Who could know whether to obey or refuse? All would live in terror under such a God. It is Satan that tempts us into sin and then accuses us once we sin.

When our first parents sinned the effects of sin were immediate. They tried to blame each other, the serpent, and even God. Anything but themselves. We've been repeating the same blaming ever since then.

Did God tempt us? "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren." God never tempts us, or at all desires that we sin. He who did not spare His only begotten Son for our salvation, the only means by which any can ever be saved and by whom all who will can be saved, would not have chosen our fall to sin. We did this ourselves. Sure, the devil tempted us, but we listened.

You say God was at fault for harming Job. This is what Job struggled with while "he justified himself rather than God." But what did Elihu say? That Job was saying "I am clean without transgression, I am innocent; neither is there iniquity in me. Behold, He findeth occasions against me, He counteth me for His enemy, He putteth my feet in the stocks, He marketh all my paths. Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man." After God spoke with Job, what was Job's own assessment? "I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not... Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

Elihu told Job that after a man is redeemed "He singeth before men, and saith, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not:" (ERV) Who sinned? I.

Hi Josh! Tx for your thoughtful reply to my post.


1. ??? The fact that A&E could still fall makes the pit still very uncovered.

2. Telling innocent young created beings who didn't know the creator very much yet....to not go to that tree did open up their curiosity.

3. Again A&E reasoning happens at the mind(soul) level of processing information by which Paul says in 1Cor 2:14 that the "natural man" [soulish mind] cannot understand the things of God by which would include A&E probably didn't understand that command.


Making an "inform" choice doesn't mean we understand the things of God. (1 Cor 2:14) My understanding is at the level of the mind(soul) that ignorance results and that sin comes. If our(or A&E) understanding came from the spiritual level... according to 1Jn 3:9 we cannot sin. So my deduction is that any sin committed is at the level of the mind(soul) .....that's probably why scripture says...."the soul that sin it shall die"(Eze 18:20).

How can a soul(mind) die? I think Paul explains it when he said...he dies daily.... Does he die daily physically...I don't think so..However daily (or several times a day) he can submits his mind to his spiritual new man that was conceived in him. That's the 2nd death that is important to die which is a spiritual death. That's the death we experienced when we got baptize. The old man died and submitted to Jesus.


Be careful Josh to not mis-represent what I said. Josh you need to re-read what I said and take the time to ponder if there's any truth to it. I said the reason people sin is because of IGNORANCE of who God is and do not know His ways. That's what I believe was A&E situation and still all of our situation today.

Also I said that God is ultimately responsible for what He created....That's is in His own laws of liabilities. If you start a campfire and the fire goes wild on you... and burns the neighbors crop or house..... according to God's law....you are responsible for the damages that fire caused despite if it went out of your control. He's responsible because he created that fire at the first place.

Just because A&E choose to sin doesn't free God, the creator, from His responsibility towards them nor the damages they've caused.

Also the law of liability says the owner must die because of preknowledge of the nature of the bull(==devil)...by which Jesus fulfilled every word of that law. He's telling us by that law and other laws He's taking full responsibility including to bring us all into His glory. It will take some time. Some more than in others. But that's the work of salvation that God took upon Himself when He redeemed us... I believe He will finish what He started according to His plan.


Your missing the fact that Jesus, who created all things, devised the plan of salvation before He created this world. He is "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world" Rev 13:8 He had already given His life on the cross before He created the world. He knew the end from the beginning.

However I think Jesus renewed His decision many times in His life....most likely at the garden the day before he died and when He got baptized...He knew the meaning of baptism and what manner of baptism was ahead of him.


I do not disagree with the notion that the devil tempts us and accuses us...that's his job.

In regards to the devil being created as the devil....well I got that from John 8:44 -- Jesus own word. We take Is 14 and relate this to be the devil....but I have studied that chapter in details...and to me it relates more to Adam than the devil. For example, if you read Is 14:16 "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;" Satan is not a man...Adam is a man.

If you are a true Bible student to seek the things of God...you have to be ready to put aside all your preconceived idea you have gotten from your family, church, this era, past era, and etc.... and seek what the word of God is really saying.


For sure, we need to see our own fault in this. In any sin...I think it involves all the times God, the devil, and us. All have some blame in it; but ultimately the blame goes to God because He is the creator of man and the devil plus He is the one who set up the event.


I agree that God doesn't tempt us...the devil does. That's his job.


Job repented after chapter 41 when God talked about the Leviathan. Not after Elihu. But for sure...we all have sinned and Job was wrong in saying he is clean. However, this hard event in Job's life was not due because He had sinned like his 3 friends was saying.

Also scripture said Job didn't sin(well it wasn't because that Job sin that caused this trial) twice: at the beginning (Job 1:1) and also at the end (Job 42:7,8) when he told Job to pray for his friends who had accused him (looks like his friends was doing the devils job or letting the devil speak thru them). Job (or God) never blamed the devil but put the responsibility on God. At least his objections were in the right direction despite he was lacking some understanding of God.

I think the reason God brought this trial to Job was to bring him to the next spiritual level. It is not because of any sin Job had committed.


Josh you did not address any of these key elements in my post :

1. The Creator is ultimately responsible for all of His creations actions.

2. According to Adventist ....Satan had previously killed in heaven before God put him on earth in the tree. According to God's own laws, the owner should of contain or kill the devil as the law requires with this pre-knowledge.

3. He left the pit uncovered. The danger for A&E to fall in that pit was there.

It's much more simple that you're seeing it.

Adam and Eve were perfect in body and mind, so their reasoning capabilities were not lacking. They were given everything they could want for their happiness. A whole perfect world, a crowning jewel of a garden beyond anything we've experienced, and best of all direct communion with their Creator and the holy angels. Abundant evidence was given of God's love and benevolence toward them.

There was just one test given to see whether they would obey God. They had an opportunity to exercise their free will and demonstrate whether they would obey or rebel.

Do not touch that one tree. Do not eat its fruit.

This is not some spiritualized command that they needed to study or get to know God before knowing the simple mechanics of what specific action they were told not to do.

The deception of the devil was to tell Eve that she wouldn't die and that God was keeping something even better from her. Eve decided to trust the serpent instead of God. The next time she and Adam saw God the effects of this sin were as plain as day. Instead of the joy of being in the presence of the King, they hid because they were afraid. Humanity became doubtful and distrustful of God, and quickly began blaming God for all of it.



I did read your posts carefully. You said Jesus died as a legal punishment for not fulfilling a responsibility to contain Satan. You are dangerously close to outright saying that Jesus deserved to die.

If you listen to nothing else I ever say, listen to this one thing while setting aside your own interpretations of the Bible and looking just at the Bible directly.

We have a compassionate savior in Jesus, "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth", who pities our faults when we are tempted, and who gave Himself for us to uplift us from the pit of ruin that we all fell into through sin. By the intercession of Jesus God says to man "Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom."

It is not God's design that we should have ever fallen into this pit. God did not create us to ruin us and is deeply touched by our sufferings, even when it's the result of our own sins. "His soul was grieved for the misery of Israel." Nor was it some light thing that Jesus suffered on our behalf while the Father watched, restraining Himself from intervening.

Is God the source of humanity's wickedness then? Why? For what purpose? Did God plan out our fall, and provide the devil for the purpose of making it happen? No, "far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity." "For Thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with Thee."

What I was emphasizing last time was the vital necessity of us fully confessing our sins, our own sins that we ourselves are responsible for, and the deadly danger of placing the responsibility for them on anyone else.

Look at the thief on the cross. At first he desired to escape the punishment for his sin. At that point he wasn't saying anything different from those who "by wicked hands have crucified and slain" the guiltless. Then he finally made a confession in which he fully owned up to his own guiltiness and accepted the justice of his punishment. There was no attempt then made to blame anyone else, to diminish his crime, or to evade the consequences. By that confession and then his claiming of Jesus he was given the assurance that he would be in Heaven.

Read Psalm 51. Again, there is no effort from David to do anything but own up to his sin. There is no blaming God, no blaming Bathsheba for being attractive, and no claim of ignorance of God's ways.



Since you asked,
1. God is responsible for our actions only in the sense that He who "gave to the sea His decree, that the waters should not pass His commandment" also permits created beings to act out their own will to a certain extent. God makes it possible for us to act and to choose to obey. Without this we would only be puppets. This does not make God morally or criminally responsible for our sins, which are the transgression of the law. We are not a fire that has no thought or will.

2. Satan didn't kill in heaven. Jesus said if you hate your brother you've murdered him in your heart already. In this way the devil was a murderer from the beginning. What beginning? Not when Lucifer was created, but when he rebelled and became the devil (slanderer) and Satan (enemy). God, who has no pleasure in wickedness and with whom evil shall not dwell, did not create a murderer.

3. A clear warning was given, just as a sign warning of a dog, electricity, or anything else. Now if someone walks past that sign regardless, the results are their own responsibility. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil wasn't even somehow inherently special. The problem was the disobedience.

I never said they lacked in anyway in their reasoning capabilities. I quoted 1Co 2:14 where Paul said that our reasoning capabilities cannot understand spiritual things. That's the way our mind is created and works. There's nothing imperfect about that. Only our minds needs to be submitted to our spirit. It is when our spirit that should make important decisions because it understand and knows the things of God. So basically the sin result in the mind that usurp the function of our spirit.


No...I mentioned specifically that God was NOT irresponsible at the least bit. Actually by giving us that law and setting up the A&E event as He did....He's letting us know that He's taking full responsibility for everything from the beginning and that A&E(and their children) becomes His full possession.

As I said He put the devil in that tree and, still today, the devil is not restrain; because the obvious to me is that God must need him for our spiritual growth. However the devil is not out of control of God's hand (read Job 41). Scriptures also tells us that the devil cannot let one hair of your head fall without God allowing it. So since that's the setup God has put in this world.... we need to trust God's plan in letting the devil be around to tempt us. Everything works together for good.

Also we know from scripture that the devil will be bound during the Millennium and released for a short while after the resurrection of the dead. So the devil is mostly needed for the first 6000 years and a brief moment after the Millennium. After that there's no more need of the devil...as far as scriptures says.

Also I tried to make a strong point that what is inscribe in the law(==the Torah:==the Pentateuch) is the basic foundation of the plan of salvation. Jesus said in Mat 5:18 that He came to fulfill every word written in the law and that includes Ex 21:28-36 concerning the liability law of the crossed ox. Jesus has fulfills many laws including the laws of divorcement see Jer 3:8 by giving Israel(his wife) a bill of divorce before sending her out.

We view God as breaking these laws but if He fulfills the judgment of the law and makes the situation right at the end -- He has broken no law.

Something I came to Know of Him that He often uses the law to fulfill His plan. So by not containing the devil and not placing a cover on the pit He had dug...He's making it obvious that He is ultimately responsible for A&E fall from the very beginning for us to see and understand His love in this. He did NOT break any laws by taking ultimate responsibility of the situation.... in the contrary He has fulfill ALL the law including its judgment and the restitution part of the law while letting us know what He's doing.

However that doesn't mean He will not use man's sin (the breakage of a law) to teach man the law by requiring restitution of him at the great white throne judgment.

Most of the time...we are unaware that we break any laws because we do not know them nor study them. But when we become aware of some .... often we do not seek to restitute it that we remain under the law.

But once the restitution is accomplish according to the prescription of the law, then the law is satisfied or fulfilled that we are no longer under the law.

God knows His own laws and always fulfills the whole law or will fulfill it at a later date according to His perfect timing in His plan. The law shows us God's ways and His righteousness. The law is love and God uses it to save man's lives. And He did that at the beginning with A&E fall.


I never said that God did evil or wrong in what He has done. God has done nothing wrong. All was done out of love and in the purpose to save Man's lives.

God has devise in His wisdom a perfect plan to bring us into salvation and it so happen that the devil is part of that plan at least the first 6000 years or so.

You are the one that is jumping to that conclusion because you cannot fit in your picture of God the obvious laws of liabilities I brought up during A&E fall. It's easier to not look at it and pretend its not there and resort to man's theories & traditional thinking to cover it up. It's easier to put all the blame on A&E and the devil and ignore the liabilities laws so to keep the picture of God we had painted intact.


Again your lack of understanding of the law, its purpose, and the ways of God makes you think that God is a criminal in front of the liabilities laws. And that's why most people want to suppress that detail of A&E fall. I understand that behavior as myself was doing the same thing. Our narrow understanding of God's laws and His ways has us seeing Him in a false way.

The law in Ex 21:28-36 is the expression of His character which is love. We cannot put the law of liabilities aside nor toss it out in front of A&E's fall. We need to seek to understand deeper with the aid of the Holy Spirit.

I hope you are not trying to say that the laws of liabilities doesn't apply to Him nor in A&E fall.

In regards to choices....I do believe that in God's plan He wants us to exercise choices; however our choices is limited to whatever His plan is. Our choices is not above God's plan or His Sovereignty in the events He sets. God is not bound up by our choices, nor does His plan changes in any way every time man makes a decision.

That's your say. We don't read this in John 8:44. And I don't see any valid scriptures saying what you said above.


A sign or a verbal warning is not what the law say you must do. According to the law, the hole has to be completely covered meaning that all possibility of danger of falling is removed by covering up the hole. That's what the law requires -- to remove the possible danger of falling. A verbal warning leaves the hole uncovered leaving a huge chance of A&E of falling.

So what is the next question, Daryl?

We know that the devil using the serpent, as in making it appear that the serpent was actually speaking in the the devil by having taken possession of the serpent, tempted and was successful in deceiving Eve, but who tempted Adam?

Can we say that the devil was using Eve as a medium? The devil had used the serpent as a medium before -- why not do the same but by using Eve this time?

So basically the answer is the same -- the devil -- but via Eve this time?

So from Scripture we have the story of the fall of Man: Eve is tempted by the Serpent, eats the fruit, gives some to Adam, who eats and voila---Man falls.

Essentially we are in OUR predicament today because:
A woman
Listened to a voice (A talking animal, of all things)
Did something she was told not to
Which unleashes Hell on the world.

Seriously?

How is this story essentially different from Pandora and her famous box?

In that story we have:
A Woman
Who listens to a voice
Does something she was told not to
Which unleashes Hell on the world.

Both stories are found in ancient writings, and yet we believe one and not the other.

BOTH stories:
A) cast WOMEN as the source of evil, and
B) support the spiritually abusive "male headship" bull*hit being so militantly promoted and supported by those who worry only about maintaining the status quo and whose employment and or power and influence it might affect.

• We believe the one and not the other because the one is true and the other is not. There was no box, and no such person as Pandora. We believe the Bible because there was a Garden of Eden in which the first human beings, created by God, lived. They chose to do something wrong and so forfeited any claim to the Tree of Life.
  
  The Tree of Life was a gift, a promise. One does not, of oneself, demand a gift nor decide that one is deserving of a promise. A gift is given to one for whom there is much affection in a relationship. Does a man give anniversary presents to all the women in his neighbourhood?
  
  Having lost the gift of Eternal Life, what ensued was "hell on earth". He who puts his hand in the fire will be scared for life. But the promise still remains. If anyone turns to God through Christ, as Jesus has said, he will not perish but have everlasting life. Remember that.
   
• As regards male headship: Jesus chose 12 men and said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Mat. 19:28
  
  Are you going to rebel in heaven because 12 men and no women were chosen from earth to be head, leader, and judge along with Jesus Christ who was a man Himself? Are you planning on confronting God on the first day there about Adam being a man and not a woman? Shall the clay say to the potter, "What are you making?" Is it not within the potter's power to look upon the intractable lump in His hand and smash it?
  
  Is it not written this way? ...
  
  
  Originally Posted By: Job 40:1-5

  Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said: "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it."
  
  Then Job answered the Lord and said: "Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth. Once I have spoken, but I will not answer; Yes, twice, but I will proceed no further."
  
  How it then, you do not bow your head in shame?

///
 

Hope that's workin' for you...



Maybe I am. ******* STAFF EDIT ******* I don't answer to you.

There could be more to this story than what most denominations has as an "official" story. As I mentioned in post #186531 :

According to Isaiah 14, satan Adam wanted to exalt himself above God.


That's a good point how these two stories amount to both blaming Eve.

You know that this "spiritually abusive "male headship" bull*hit" is found in the Bible if you read the Bible literally. And that's where the main problem lies of most interpretation. Many haven't understood yet that God talks in "dark speeches" (chiydah, which means a riddle, a puzzle to be solved).

Num 12:6 "6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. 7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. 8 With him(Moses) will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; H2420 and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

In this dispute, Aaron & Miriam was claiming to be an equal prophet to Moses (see Num 12:2); but God Himself said that was not so. Moses was more than a prophet by which Moses understood God's language whereas prophets don't. That's the same case with most people including EGW. We are far from understanding God's symbolic or puzzled language like Moses or Paul had.

Take note that Jesus also spoke in parables -- another form of riddle.

Concerning "male headship bull*hit", we end up with such interpretaton when we read scripture literally. However, if we look at scriptures more closely we will find that there's no female gendered language attributed to the "sons of God". However we know that woman will be saved also. Then why does the Bible never speaks of the "daughters of God"?

Because the spiritual maturity is symbolized throughout the Bible as being a male.....because a male is able to pass on the SEED (the seed of the gospel). God always uses the natural realm to explain the spiritual realm.

Also, as we know in the natural, boys are not physically capable of producing the seed. Even if they become capable ... according to scriptures they need to be trained before hand and supervised by the priests before they can enter the ministry. 30 is the age of [spiritual] maturity in the law. John the Baptist and Jesus both were 30 when they started their ministry.

Whereas, a female never can produce a seed. She is (symbolically) the recipient of the seed by which portrays someone that haven't received the gospel seed yet.

So if we take the symbolic meaning and apply it to someone's spiritual maturity level... a man that haven't received the gospel seed yet is symbolically a woman....however, a woman that is spiritually mature that can pass on the gospel seed to someone else is symbolically a man according to scriptures.

Elle, your posts are always interesting to read. COSMICAllY flawed theology, but interesting.


Being "found in the Bible" does not make something "Biblical." We also "find in the Bible":
- Incest
- polygamy
- genocide
- Heaven located beside Hell
- keeping of feast days
- sex with your brother's wife if he dies
- stoning your disobedient children
- etc., etc., etc.

I believe the words of Scripture mean exactly what they say, unless there is a specific reason to understand them symbolically.
Therefore, as I've said in other posts, I cannot agree with your system of interpreting Scripture by "dark riddles" and spiritual laws and hidden meanings. I'm sure it works great for you, but not for me.

So how do you read these text JAK? Do you ignore them? Do you say it applied only to Moses time? ???


I do agree that Scripture means what they say, but not exactly. Most of the time some sort of symbolism is attach to it. Like for example in the animals sacrifices, it does mean that a death is involve but it was symbolized by different types of animals. Each animals represents different aspects of Jesus' nature. Plus each ritual details represents different LEGAL aspect that pertains to the plan of salvation. These are all symbolically written in "dark speeches"(puzzle to be solved).

The 7 items you provided above, I do see the symbolism in 4 of them. Remember Jesus said that all the law(Torah == first 5 books) will be fulfilled. (Jesus said "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Mat 5:18)

So these texts that appears "non-God-like" will be fulfill by Jesus in some ways. I don't believe they are fulfilled literally, but symbolically showing the spiritual realm.

- polygamy : God had 2 wives, Israel and Judah (see Jer 3; Hos 2:2; etc...)

- keeping of feast days : In brief, feasts relates to our spiritual growth in 3 steps. With Passover God describes that only Jesus righteousness save us. Jesus righteousness is imputed to us. Pentecost is between Passover and Tabernacle. It is the sanctification process that Jesus will employ to bring us to spiritual maturity. Tabernacle is our glorification when we will abide in God's house surrounded with "live branches" which equates to God's glory / immortality. These are all described symbolically.

- sex with your brother's wife if he dies : Jesus is our eldest brother who died childless. We are to beget (passing the gospel seed) children to Him. (1Co 4:15 "for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel." see also Phm 1:10 )

- stoning your disobedient children : Those that remain "disobedient" during their lifetime will resurrect after the Millennium and face the white throne judgment. Stoning was always done by a group of people after they had reached a verdict. At the Great white throne, the 144K will judge with Jesus. Yes death is involved but it is the 2nd death (submitting our will to God ==spiritual death -- the same death we have at baptism -- "every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess") and not the 1st death (the physical death).


? I think you didn't have a chance to give this a thorough thought. I don't think that works for you...for if it did... you will need to go against much scriptures. Anyway here's some reasons why I think you haven't give this some serious reflection :

-God said very straight forward in Num 12:8 that He speaks in "dark speeches" -- check out the definition and usage of the Hebrew word H2420-chiydah https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H2420&t=KJV
-all over the Bible there's lots and lots of symbolism He employs to explain to us the spiritual realms and His plan,
-Jesus always spoke to the crowd in parables that had hidden meanings,
-the book of Revelation is big time written in symbolism and filled with hidden meanings,
-and His laws are spiritual as Paul said in Rom 7:14 "the law is spiritual".

As I mentioned previously, Elle, we differ on our view of Scripture.

I'm not sure what texts you are referring to.


I do not agree. Although Scripture DOES contain some language that is symbolic, I cannot agree that all (or most) of it has hidden symbolic meaning. Scripture means exactly what it says; no more, no less. Do not add to, and do not subtract from.

Those seven items were not intended to address symbolism, but rather to show that just because "it's in the Bible" does not make it "Biblical."

What??? God doesn't have ANY wives. And that certainly does not justify polygamy.

The life and death of Jesus released us from the observance of feast days.

What?? What??? This is getting too strange!

Stoning children has nothing to do with the resurrection or "white throne judgement."

Not sure where you got THAT from because the way I read it God said He DOES NOT speak in dark speeches. He also tells us to "come, let us REASON TOGETHER." You can't do that with dark speeches and symbolism and hidden meanings.

I do agree that the Bible does contain symbolism, but to extrapolate from that to say that ALL the Bible is symbolic is unwarranted and, in my opinion, unsupportable.

It is obvious that the devil after successfully tempting Eve, used Eve to successfully tempt Adam.

The issue isn't whether it was a man or a woman; men can fall into the same trap and become instruments for the deceiver just as readily as to what happened to Eve. Rather the issue is that anyone who listens to the deceiver endangers not only their own spiritual life, but also the spiritual lives of their companions.
By listening and believing the deceiver in direct contradiction to the love and the command of God, Eve changed her allegiance from God and became an instrument for the deceiver.

Luke 11:23 [Jesus said] He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

So, what is the next question?

If we follow the Genesis sequence we would now be at the point of where God appears to the disobedient pair.

Why did they run and hide?
How did they try to defend themselves?

Why did they run and hide?

Somehow the words of the serpent were already recognized as false! Where was the higher existence and opening of the eyes and becoming like gods, that the serpent had promised?
But no -- they had not become like God by eating the fruit, Yes, their eyes were opened and they saw their utter lack of a covering. Now they suddenly feared God, they KNEW God was far greater than they, and they had violated a sacred trust and disobeyed. They didn't want to face Him. So they ran and hid.


How did they try to defend themselves?

By deflection -- not taking responsibility for their own action they passed the blame onto someone else.

Adam -- it's the woman You Lord gave to me -- she made me do it.
Eve -- it's the serpent you created, he made me do it.

This brings us to God's response in Genesis 3:14-15 quoted below:

Genesis 3:14 KJV  And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 
15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 

Was this the first time that the Plan of Salvation was revealed to them?

According to Patriarchs and Prophets:

To man the first intimation of redemption was communicated in the sentence pronounced upon Satan in the garden. The Lord declared, "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15. PP 65

When God was speaking to the serpent in the Garden of Eden, He was taking away the gifts bestowed upon it for all its generations to come: "Because you have done this," He said to the serpent, "you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field. On your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." So then:

1. The serpent was placed under woman.
2. And the woman was placed under man.
3. And the man was placed in dust.

Such was the terrible curse that befell them and their descendants, even unto us and those yet to come, until the end of time.

However, Revelation 12 takes up the Genesis narrative in apocalyptic form in hope:

• A woman, being with child, cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.
   
• Her Child was caught up to God and His throne. And war broke out there in heaven: the Child and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
   
• Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the dragon has been cast down." And the followers of the Child on earth overcame the dragon too:
  
  by the blood of the Child, and
  by the word of their testimony, and
  they did not love their lives to the death.

///

This idea ("Protoevangelium") is not original to EGW, but has been a common understanding since at least Justin Martyr and Irenaeus.

I do suspect, however, a certain influence of "Monday-morning quarterbacking" at the root of it.

Interesting discussion resulting on the sequence of Revelation 12, which can continue at
Structure in Prophetic Writing

Some of the posts have been moved there.

Yes, I agree, the concept that this was the first announcement of the plan of salvation was actually quite widely held. That was prior to the inroads of evolutionary ways of thought, which has very different views on the whole concept of the origin of sin and beginnings of mankind.

But for most Bible believing Christians they held that
the coming of Christ and His death was here being promised in Gen. 3, as He would crush Satan’s whole empire, strip him of his power and his tyranny over the human race.
The promise was pointing to the incarnation of Christ Who would suffer the wrath of the serpent but by that very suffering on the cross, he “crushed” the devil’s head, defeating him forever.
The protoevangelium also includes the thought that God always had the plan of salvation in place; as soon as sin entered the world, Christ, our surety, stepped in as the Savior.

The whole great controversy is a war between Christ and the serpent and the prize is the people. Who will claim the people as his? The serpent or Christ?

"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8).
for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost Luke 19:10