Ellen White and the view on the 'daily'

Posted By: Rick H

Ellen White and the view on the 'daily' - 06/28/11 05:11 PM

When the theological struggle on the view on the 'daily' came about, Ellen White uncharacteristically told everyone to not use her writtings as she tried to stop the back and forth amoung the brethren....

"...I have words to speak to my brethren east and west, north
and south. I request that my writings shall not be used as the
leading argument to settle questions over which there is now so
much controversy. I entreat of Elders Haskell, Loughborough,
Smith, and others of our leading brethren, that they make no
reference to my writings to sustain their views of the "daily."
{6BIO 257.5}
It has been presented to me that this is not a subject of vital
importance. I am instructed that our brethren are making a
mistake in magnifying the importance of the difference in the
views that are held. I cannot consent that any of my writings
shall be taken as settling this matter. The true meaning of the
"daily" is not to be made a test question. {6BIO 257.6}

I now ask that my ministering brethren shall not make use of
my writings in their arguments regarding this question; for I
have had no instruction on the point under discussion, and I see
no need for the controversy. Regarding this matter under
present conditions, silence is eloquence.--MS 11, 1910 (see also
1SM, p. 164). {6BIO 258.1}
Posted By: Rick H

Re: Ellen White and the view on the 'daily' - 06/28/11 05:12 PM

This issue was caused by fight over the "a differing view" that others were giving as you can see in the quote "difference in the views that are held." and that is why she had to write to declare everyone to hold their horses, or "silence is eloquence.--" as it would have been a fight over a issue 'not of vital importance' which would have done much unnecessary damage then and as we shall see have much broader implications that some leaders could not see. Conradi seems to have been one of those pushing the "differing view" on the 'daily' and got support from A.G. Daniels, and W.W. Prescott who tried to enlist others to help them convince Ellen White to accept it. Well she clealy saw what their intent was and she told everyone to let it go, as sometimes Satans plan of confusion and infighting has to be stopped quickly, before it hurts the church and work....

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/1919bc/hal-4.htm

A. G. Daniels said he had let it go, but the intellectual pride showed itself again at the 1919 Bible Conference which not coincidentally he was the chairman of......

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/1919bc/hed38.htm


The "new view" of Conradi was the view held by Protestant Christianity before William Miller. Conradi begins to promote around turn of century; eventually he totally apostatizes. Conradi was the instigator and here is the damage:"If there is a lack of reverence for the work of Sister White in Europe today, most people trace that right back to Conradi’s work that he did in Europe because he undermined the Spirit of Prophecy the whole time that he worked there."

http://www.temcat.com/daily2.htm


William Miller, Josiah Lietch, Sylvester Bliss, Joseph Bates, J.N. Andrews, Hyrom Edison, James White, Euriah Smith, Steven Haskell, O.A. Johnson, J.G. Matson, F.C. Gilbert, L.A. Smith, Washberg, and Luthborough all believed the "daily" symbolized paganism–and they presented this truth in their writings.

"....A Scheme of the Devil
F. C. Gilbert reported that on June 8, 1910, Ellen White stated to him; that what, which Daniells and Prescott were pushing [the daily] was "a scheme of the devil."
"Daniells and Prescott . . . would not give the the older brethren in the cause any chance to say anything. . . . Daniells was here to see me, and I would not see him. . . . I would not have anything to say to him about anything. About the 'daily' that they are trying to work up, there is nothing to it. . . . When I was in Washington there seemed to be something that just encased their minds, and I could not seem to touch them. We are to have nothing to do with this subject of the 'daily' . . . I knew they would work against my message, and then the people would not think there was anything to my message. I have written to him and told him that he was showing himself not fit to be president of the General Conference . . . not the man to keep the Presidency.

"If this message of the 'daily' were a testing message the Lord would have shown me. These people do not see the end from the beginning in this thing. . . . I utterly refuse to see any of them who are engaged in this work.
"The light that was given me of God is that Brother Daniells has stood in the Presidency long enough . . . and I was told not to have any more conversation with him about any of these things. I would not see Daniells about the matter, and I would not have one word with him. They pled with me to give him an interview, but I would not him any at all. . . . I was told to warn our people not to have anything to do with this thing they are teaching. . . . I was forbidden of the Lord to listen to it. I have expressed myself as not having a particle of confidence in it. . . . This whole thing they are doing is a scheme of the devil." F. C. Gilbert's deathbed report of an interview given him by Ellen White on June 8, 1910.
Errors and Dangers of Prescott and Daniells; The Cities to Be Worked
(A.G. Daniells was elected president of the General Conference in 1901. This suggests that this document was written in 1910, a time when Mrs. White was very concerned about Daniells' neglect of the cities and his involvement in the controversy over the 'Daily.')

"At this stage of our experience we are not to have our minds drawn away from the special light given [us] to consider at the important gathering of our conference. And there was Brother Daniells, whose mind the enemy was working; and your mind and Elder Prescott's mind were being worked by the angels that were expelled from heaven. Satan's work was to divert your minds that jots and tittles should be brought in which the Lord did not inspire you to bring in. They were not essential. But this meant much to the cause of truth. And the ideas of your minds, if you could be drawn away to jots or tittles, is a work of Satan's devising. To correct little things in the books written, you suppose would be doing a great work. But I am charged, Silence is eloquence.

"I am to say, Stop your picking flaws. If this purpose of the devil could only be carried out, then [it] appears to you [that] your work would be considered as most wonderful in conception. It was the enemy's plan to get all the supposed objectionable features where all classes of minds did not agree. And what then? The very work that pleases the devil would come to pass. There would be a representation given to the outsiders not of our faith just what would suit them, that would develop traits of character which would cause great confusion and occupy the golden moments which should be used zealously to bring the great message before the people. The presentations upon any subject we have worked upon could not all harmonize, and the results would be to confuse the minds of believers and unbelievers. This is the very thing that Satan had planned that should take place–anything that could be magnified as a disagreement.
"Read Ezekiel, chapter 28. Now, here is a grand work, where strange spirits can figure. But the Lord has a work to [be] done to save perishing souls; and the places which Satan, disguised, could fill in, bringing confusion into our ranks, he will do to perfection, and all those little differences will become enlarged, prominent.

"And I was shown from the first that the Lord had given neither Elders Daniells nor Prescott the burden of this work. Should Satan's wiles be brought in, should this 'Daily' be such a great matter as to be brought in to confuse minds and hinder the advancement of the work at this important period of time? It should not, whatever may be. This subject should not be introduced, for the spirit that would be brought in would be forbidding, and Lucifer is watching every movement. Satanic agencies would commence his work and there would be confusion brought into our ranks. You have no call to hunt up the difference of opinion that is not a testing question; but your silence is eloquence. I have the matter all plainly before me. If the devil could involve any one of our own people on these subjects, as he has proposed to do, Satan's cause would triumph. Now the work without delay is to be taken up and not a [difference] of opinion expressed.
"Satan would inspire those men who have gone out from us to unite with evil angels and retard our work on unimportant questions, and what rejoicing [there] would be in the camp of the enemy. Press together, press together. Let every difference be buried. Our work now is to devote all our physical and brain-nerve power to put these differences out of the way, and all harmonize. If Satan could with his great unsanctified wisdom be permitted to get the least hold, [he would rejoice].

"Now, when I saw how you were working, my mind took in the whole situation and the results if you should go forward and give the parties that have left us the least chance to bring confusion into our ranks. Your lack of wisdom would be just what Satan would have it. Your loud proclamation was not under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I was instructed to say to you that your picking flaws in the writings of men that have been led of God is not inspired of God. And if this is the wisdom that Elder Daniells would give to the people, by no means give him an official position, for he cannot reason from cause to effect. Your silence on this subject is your wisdom. Now, everything like picking flaws in the publications of men who are not alive is not the work God has given any of you to do. For if these men–Elders Daniells and Prescott–had followed the directions given in working the cities, there would have been many, very many, convinced of the truth and converted, able men that [now] are in positions where they never will be reached.
"All the world is to be regarded as one great family. And when you have such a fountain of knowledge to draw from, why have you left the world to perish for years with the testimonies given by our Lord Jesus Christ? True religion teaches us to regard every man and woman as a person to whom we can do good.

"This has been in print many years: 'A Balanced Mind,' testimony to Elder Andrews. The mind may be cultivated to become a power to know when to speak and what burdens to take up and to bear, for Christ is your teacher. And I feared greatly for you [when I saw you] exalting your wisdom and pursuing a course to bring in differences of opinion. The Lord calls for wise men who can hold their peace when it [is] wisdom for them to do so. If you would be a whole man, you need sanctification through Jesus Christ. Now there is a work just started, and let wisdom be seen in every minister, in every president of [a] conference. But here was a work for you to take hold of years ago where you were needed to lift your voice for this very work. Christ gave all His people special directions what they shall do and the things they shall not do. And there is a little time left us to work out the righteousness of the Lord.

"You can understand the way of the Lord. I saw your purpose of carrying things after your own devising after you were placed as president. You had thought you would do wonderful things, which would be a work God had not placed in your hands to do. Now, your work is not to oppress but to release every necessity possible if the Lord has accepted you to serve. But you have very early given evidence that wisdom and sanctified judgment have not been manifested by you. You blazed out matters that would not be received unless the Lord should give light.

"I have been instructed that such hasty movements should not have [been] made [such] as selecting you as president of the conference even another year. But the Lord forbids any more such hasty transactions until the matter is brought before the Lord in prayer; and as you have had the message come to you that the work of the Lord resting upon the president is a most solemn responsibility, you had no moral right to blaze out as you did upon the subject of the 'Daily' and suppose your influence would decide the question. There was Elder Haskell, who has carried the heavy responsibilities, and there is Elder Irwin and several men I might mention who have the heavy responsibilities.

"Where was your respect for the men of age? What authority could you exercise without taking all the responsible men to weigh the matter? But let us now investigate the matter. We must now reconsider whether it is the Lord's judgment, in the face of the work that has been neglected, of showing your zeal to carry the work even another year. If you should carry the work another year with the help that shall unite with you, there should be a change take place in you and Elder Prescott. And humble your own hearts before God. The Lord will have to see in you a showing of a different experience, for if ever men needed to be reconverted at this present [time], it [is] Elder Daniells and Elder Prescott....."
Posted By: Rick H

Re: Ellen White and the view on the 'daily' - 06/28/11 05:12 PM

and there is more.........

"...Seven men should be chosen that are men of wisdom and through the working of the grace of God [give] evidence [of] a reconversion. For any men who are so blinded that they cannot reason from cause to effect, that they would ignore the men who have borne the responsibilities of the work and these presidents of conferences, [that] men [who] carry the work for over two years should be disregarded and such an impulsive consequence take place that men would neglect the very work kept before them for years–work the cities–and no, or but very little, attention [be] given to the old men for counsel, but proclaim the things they choose to give the people, bears its own testimony of the unsafety of the men to be entrusted with such a grand and wonderful work.

"Christ is not dead. He will never suffer His work to be carried on in this strange way. Let the books alone. If any change is essential, God will have the harmony in that change consistent, but when a message has been entrusted to men with the large responsibilities involved, [God] demands faithfulness that will work by love and purify the soul. Elders Daniells and Prescott both need reconversion. A strange work has come in, and it is not in harmony with the work Christ came to our world to do; and all who are truly converted will work the works of Christ.

"We are every one [to] work out the work which shall glorify the Father. We have come to the crisis–either to conform to the character of Jesus Christ right in this preparatory time or not attempt [it]. Elder Daniells, [you are not] to feel at liberty to let your voice be heard on high as you have done under similar circumstances. And understand, the president of a conference is not a ruler. He works in connection with the wise men who occupy the position as presidents whom God has accepted. He has not liberty to meddle with the writings in printed books from the pens that God has accepted. They are no longer to bear sway unless they show less of the ruling, dominating power. The crisis has come, for God will be dishonored.

"How does the Lord look upon the unworked cities? Christ is in heaven. Now its acknowledgment is to be, 'There is no kingly rule.' And now is the crisis of this world. Now I am the Power to save or to destroy. Now is the time when the destiny of all is in My hands. I have given My life to save the world. And 'I, if I be lifted up,' the saving grace I shall impart will prove that all who will be fashioned after the divine similitude and will be one with Me shall work as I work with My power of redeeming grace.' Whoever will, [let him] take hold with his brethren to do the work given them to do when in responsible places under the counsel the Lord gives, and seek most earnestly to work in complete harmony with Him who so loved the world He gave His life a full sacrifice for the saving of the world.
"I speak to our ministers, that as they enter upon the work in our cities let there be a calm sacredness attending the ministry of the Word. We cannot make the proper impression upon the minds of the people if we . . .
[Lower third of this page left blank.]

"I copy from my Diary. The truth as it is in Jesus–talk it, pray it, believe every word in its simplicity. What would you gain if mistakes are brought before the men who have departed from the faith and given heed to seducing spirits, men who were not long ago with us in the faith? Will you stand on the devil's side? Give your attention to the unworked fields. A world-wide work is before us. I was given representations of John Kellogg. A very attractive personage was representing the ideas of the specious arguments that he was presenting, sentiments different from the genuine Bible truth. And those who are hungering and thirsting after something new were advancing ideas [so specious] that Elder Prescott was in great danger. Elder Daniells was in great danger [of] becoming wrapped in a delusion that if these sentiments could be spoken everywhere it would be as a new world. "Yes, it would, but while their minds were thus absorbed I was shown that Brother Daniells and Brother Prescott were weaving into their experience sentiments of a spiritual[istic] appearance and drawing our people to beautiful sentiments that would deceive, if possible, the very elect. I have to trace with my pen [the fact] that these brethren would see defects in their delusive ideas that would place the truth in an uncertainty; and [yet] they [would] stand out as [if they had] great spiritual discernment. Now I am to tell them [that] when I was shown this matter, when Elder Daniells was lifting up his voice like a trumpet in advocating his ideas of the 'Daily,' the after results were presented. Our people were becoming confused. I saw the result, and then there were given me cautions that if Elder Daniells without respect to the outcome should thus be impressed and let himself believe he was under the inspiration of God, skepticism would be sown among our ranks everywhere, and we should be where Satan would carry his messages. Set unbelief and skepticism would be sown in human minds, and strange crops of evil would take the place of truth. Manuscript 67, 1910, 1–8." Manuscript Release, volume 20, 17–22.

The key parts are evident:

"A very attractive personage was representing the ideas of the specious arguments that he was presenting, sentiments different from the genuine Bible truth. And those who are hungering and thirsting after something new were advancing ideas [so specious] that Elder Prescott was in great danger. Elder Daniells was in great danger [of] becoming wrapped in a delusion that if these sentiments could be spoken everywhere it would be as a new world. "Yes, it would, but while their minds were thus absorbed I was shown that Brother Daniells and Brother Prescott were weaving into their experience sentiments of a spiritual[istic] appearance and drawing our people to beautiful sentiments that would deceive, if possible, the very elect. I have to trace with my pen [the fact] that these brethren would see defects in their delusive ideas that would place the truth in an uncertainty; and [yet] they [would] stand out as [if they had] great spiritual discernment. Now I am to tell them [that] when I was shown this matter, when Elder Daniells was lifting up his voice like a trumpet in advocating his ideas of the 'Daily,' the after results were presented. Our people were becoming confused. I saw the result, and then there were given me cautions that if Elder Daniells without respect to the outcome should thus be impressed and let himself believe he was under the inspiration of God, skepticism would be sown among our ranks everywhere, and we should be where Satan would carry his messages"

This was the leaders choosing to do their own will, part of the Alpha of apostasy which would have such a effect later, and look at what was writting by A. G. Daniels:

"Scores and hundreds of our brethren who have been giving the subject study, and have become thoroughly convinced that the new view is right, will go on with their investigation, and will become more firmly established as the days go by. I think every Bible teacher in our Colleges in this country believes in the new view, and will teach it this way, if they teach anything at all regarding the daily".......

So we can see were the seeds of unbelief in the Spirit of prophecy were sown, and now many point back to the 1919 Bible Conference as proof that Ellen White is not inspired. The leaders did not see that they would cause such a issue, and never dreamed of the effect it would have many years later as others stumbled on the 'stone' they unknowingly set...
Posted By: Rick H

Re: Ellen White and the view on the 'daily' - 06/28/11 05:13 PM

Here is excerpt from another sermon on 1888 and what could have been if the Adventist leaders had not rejected the message being given or the Adventist movement had listened......

"...God's Will for Adventism
Having said that we have no guarantee that Jesus is coming soon, may I hasten to add that I believe that the possibility is that Jesus may come very, very soon. it seems that there are certain periods when God moves events in the world and the church toward an impending climax, and then waits to see if His people are ready to move with Him.

In 1844 He moved mightily through the Millerite movement, and if His people would have hung together in faith after the great disappointment, the sealing work could have been finished rather quickly. But the great Millerite movement fractured apart after the disappointment, and God could not finish His sealing work.

Then things went into a sort of plateau for forty years until God began to move things in the world and the church toward another climax point in 1888. Once again God watched hopefully to see if His people would catch the vision and get serious about going home. Gut once again God's desires were thwarted, this time by selfish, fault-finding, power seeking Seventh-day Adventist men and women.

So we went into another plateau of ninety years. It is my considered judgment that we are moving toward another of those rare climax points in history, when God is moving events once again into a final countdown. And once again He is hoping that His people will catch the vision of eternity and join with Him in bringing an end to the sin problem. Will they do it this time? Will we do it this time? If we decide that we are ready to get serious about our chosen name--Seventh-day Adventists--then the history of sin could be over in a very short time. On the other hand, if we keep sleeping along, and congratulating ourselves about our beautiful churches and our fine organs and the surging number of baptisms in parts of the world other than North America, then this climax point will pass just like others have done, and this tired old world will go on struggling for survival, while you and I will go to our graves in disappointment.

God's Chosen People
Back in the time of Christ, the Jews had some treasured statements which they loved to quote when things looked dark for them. One was Jeremiah 31:35-37. "Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever. Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord." Speaking of Jerusalem in verse 40, the Lord said, "It shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever."

God told the Jews that as long as the sun and moon and stars remained in the sky, Israel would remain as His chosen nation. He promised that, just as surely as no one could ever measure the heavens or the depth of the earth, He would never cast off Israel as His chosen people. Ellen White comments, "These words the Jews applied to themselves; and because God had shown them so great favor and mercy, they flattered themselves that, notwithstanding their sins and iniquity, He would still retain them as His favored people. and shower especial blessings upon them. This has been the danger of the people of God in all ages; and especially is this the danger of those living near the close of time . . . If they shut their eyes, as did the Jews, to their own corruption, and choose their own ways, the Lord will give them up to the blindness of mind and hardness of heart, that they cannot discern the things of the Spirit of God." (Redemption, vol. 1, pp. 38-39)

But doesn't the promise we just read sound absolute, and weren't the Jews justified in believing that Israel would stand forever as God's chosen people? Are we not likewise justified in believing that our church will go through when we read that, though it appears to fall, it will not fall? Or have they and we both forgotten another crucial principle found in the same book? "And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them." (Jeremiah 18:9,10)

Any promise which God ever makes to an individual or a people concerning their relationship to Him and their future is always conditional on their response to His declared will. Moses laid it all out in Deuteronomy 28. "And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: And all these blessing shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God." (vs. 1,2) "The Lord shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God, and walk in his ways." (vs. 9) "And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not he beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the Lord thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them." (vs. 13)

"But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee." (vs. 15) "The Lord shall sent upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me." (vs. 20) "Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and h-is statutes which He commanded thee." (vs. 45)

Moses clearly warned Israel that they faced the possibility of total destruction if they proved to he intransigently disobedient to God's commandments. Ellen White says very succinctly, "It should be remembered that the promises and the threatenings of God are alike conditional." (Ev 695) Do you know that we are in danger of forgetting this principle just as the Jews were in the time of Christ?

Warnings For Us
Perhaps we need to look at some inspired statements which are not read very often in Seventh-day Adventist circles. "I am filled with sadness when I think of our condition as a people... our own course of continual backsliding has separated us from God. And yet the general opinion is that the church is flourishing, and that peace and spiritual prosperity are in all her borders. The church has turned back from following Christ her Leader, and is steadily retreating toward Egypt." (5T 217) "The whole body is sick because of mismanagement and miscalculation." (TM 397) "Some power has cut the cable . . . and (we) are drifting away to sea without chart or compass." (RH July 24, 1888) "You are following the same path as did ancient Israel. Your neglect to follow the light will place you in a more unfavorable position than the Jews upon whom Christ pronounced a woe." (5T 75-76)

"Unless the church, which is now being leavened with her own backsliding, shall repent and be converted, she will eat of the fruit of her own doing, until she shall abhor herself." (8T 250) "It pains me to say, my brethren, that your sinful neglect to walk in the light, has enshrouded you in darkness. You may now be honest in not recognizing and obeying the light; the doubt you have entertained, your neglect to heed the requirements of God, have blinded your perceptions so that darkness -is now to you light, and light is darkness." (5T 71)

"Oh, what privileges are granted to us as a people! And if God spared not His people that He loved because they refused to walk in the light, how can He spare the people whom He has blessed with the light of heaven in having opened to them the most exalted truth ever intrusted to mortal man to give to the world?… Internal corruption will bring the denunciations of God upon this people as it did upon Jerusalem... My brethren, we know not what is before us... God will work with us and for us if the sins which brought His wrath upon the old world, upon Sodom and Gomorrah and upon ancient Jerusalem, do not become our crime." (Letter to Butler and Haskell, Dec. 8, 1886)

"What would the Saviour do if He should come to us now as He did to the Jews? He would have to do a similar work." (RH, vol. 2, p. 308) "Jerusalem is a representation of what the church will be if it refuses to receive and walk in the light that God has given . . . These are no idle tales, but truth." (8T 67, 68) "If we imitate their (Israel's) example of transgression, and depart from God, we shall fall as surely as did they." (1T 608, 609) "Let a church become proud and boastful, not depending on God, not exalting His power, and that church will surely be left by the Lord, to be brought down to the ground. Let a people glory in wealth, intellect, knowledge, or in anything but Christ, and they will soon he brought to confusion." (8T 127)

These are extremely sobering statements from inspiration. They should make us aware that the principle of conditional prophecy applies to us just as much as it did to Israel of old. We are also on trial, to see what we will do with the commandments of God. Will we obey and receive all the blessings of the covenant, or will we by disobedience place ourselves outside the boundaries of God's covenant promises?

The ship that will go through is you and I, not some entity outside of us which will carry us through if we just hang on to it. And the ship of Adventism will go through only if you and I dedicate our entire energies to learning and living God's will for this crisis time. In other words, it is our decisions that will determine what happens to this church.

A word of caution may be in order here. I am not suggesting that we can best do God's will by separating ourselves from the organized church. In fact, I am afraid that if all God's faithful ones would separate from the church, then the church would surely be doomed to destruction, and we might indeed miss the magnificent opportunity we have to usher in the second coming quickly. We might even face the unpleasant prospect of going to our graves in disappointment. What I am saying is that we dare not be too complacent in our belief that the church is going through automatically, and we will make it too if we just hang on. Hanging on is just not good enough. Our only hope lies in study and prayer such as none of us has ever experienced before.

What is the Remedy?
How can we be sure that we will not make the mistakes of the Jews and lose our position as God's remnant? How can we go through ourselves and make it possible for Jesus to end this planet's suffering in the very near future? May I suggest that we are never so blind as when we ignore the past and assume that past failures can never happen to us. We have had a dramatic demonstration of God's will and man's ability to thwart that will within our church. If we have the slightest chance to be God's final remnant today, we must understand as completely as is humanly possible what happened between 1888 and 1900. That was our most recent opportunity to go home, and we must know why it never happened. May I urge you to make that subject a top priority on your list of topics for study and prayer.

What is the divine analysis of the 1888 message? The Lord in His great mercy sent a most precious message to His people through Elders Waggoner and Jones." (TM 91) This message, understood in its true character, and proclaimed in the Spirit, will lighten the earth with its glory. (Ms. 15, 1888) That is the language of the loud cry of the third angel's message. We can conclude that God was intending to prepare His people and to give a final warning to the world through the 1888 message. But what happened?

By exciting that opposition Satan succeeded in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them . . . The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world. (1SM 234, 235) In other words, by quibbling and jealousy and open opposition, men succeeded in delaying the second coming of Christ for one hundred years.

"God has given Brother Jones and Brother Waggoner a message for the people . . . When you reject the message borne by these men, you reject Christ, the giver of the message." (Letter 51-A. 1895) During the presentations at Minneapolis in 1888 Ellen White sat on the front row and was heard to say over and over, "Amen, there is much light here." On one occasion she said that Dr. Waggoner was able to present righteousness by faith in a way that she could not.

In recent years there has been a major attempt to prove that, while some of the leading brethren rejected the message in 1888, most accepted it, and even the opposers later repented and came into line. As a result, we have been told, our church eventually accepted the 1888 message of righteousness by faith, and we have been teaching it ever since. This attempt is seriously flawed. First, if we had accepted the message, we would have been in the kingdom long before now. Our presence on this earth shows that there is still a problem. Second, the historical evidence shows continued rejection of the message well after 1888. I will go one step farther. I don't believe that we, as a church, have understood, taught, or lived the 1888 message from that time to this. We have either been trapped in legalism or the gospel of unrighteousness by presumption.

In 1926 Elder A. G. Daniells, former General Conference President, wrote, "The message has never been received, nor proclaimed, nor given free course as it should have been in order to convey to the church the measureless blessings that were wrapped within it.' (Christ Our Righteousness, p. 47) In 1898 Ellen White was still speaking of stubborn defiance, disunion, and rejection of light. In 1902 she said, "I have been instructed that the terrible experience at the Minneapolis Conference is one of the saddest chapters in the history of the believers in present truth." (Letter 179, 1902) W. C. White, her son, wrote, "But the most serious feature of the disaffection was the fact that, because Sister White urged the importance of the message of righteousness by faith, and because thereby she seemed to be upholding these brethren (Waggoner and Jones), contrary to their judgment, it grew into a spirit of rejection of the testimonies of Sister White." (A. V. Olson, Thirteen Crisis Years, p. 332) Could our present plague of attacking or ignoring her writings have its roots in the years following 1888?

Perhaps the heart of the whole problem is found in these comments by Ellen White in 1901. "Enough has been said over and over and over again, but it does not make any difference; they go right on just the same, professedly accepting it; but they do not make any change." (Talk in Battle Creek College library, April 1, 1901) Professedly accepting but making no changes will never finish God's work, even in a thousand years. Could this be what has confused certain historians into assuming that lip service meant heart acceptance? Could the same thing be our problem today?

Inspiration tells us that the leaders of the 1901 General Conference "closed and bolted the door' against the Spirit's entrance . . . The doors were barred against the heavenly current that would have swept away all evil." (Letter from Elmshaven, Aug. 5, 1902) "The result of the last General Conference has been the greatest, the most terrible sorrow of my life. No change was made." (Letter from Elmshaven, Jan. 15, 1903)

What is the 1888 Message?
Now, if it is really true that God was going to finish His work on earth through the 1888 message, and if it is true that we have never really heard the message since that time, with isolated exceptions; what is the message that could have produced the latter rain and the loud cry then, and will produce it today if we will accept it? The message can be summed up in one Bible verse--Christ in you, the hope of glory. The 1888 message was focused on preparing God's people for translation; thus it had much to say about how to be perfect in Christ and thus ready for the close of probation. The message was not about personal assurance of salvation, but about vindicating and glorifying God's name.

Perhaps some brief excerpts from the messages of Jones and Waggoner might be helpful. "Christ took upon Himself the flesh, not of a sinless being, hut of sinful man, that is, that the flesh which He assumed had all the weaknesses and sinful tendencies to which fallen human nature is subject." (Waggoner, Christ and His Righteousness, pp. 26, 27) "In all of our Christian experience we have left little loopholes along here and there for sin. We have never dared to come to that place where we would believe that the Christian life should be a sinless life. We have not dared to believe it or preach it. But in that case we cannot preach the law of God fully. Why not? Because we do not understand the power of justification by faith." (Waggoner, G. C. Bulletin, 1891, pp. 156, 159) Right here is the difference between justification as taught by Evangelicals and justification in the 1888 message. Only in the 1888 message do we hear about power to keep from sinning, and this victory over sin is always linked with the fallen nature of Christ.

"Christ is to be in us, just as God was in Him, and His character is to be in us, just as God was in Him . . . It is the cooperation of the divine and the human--the mystery of God in you and me-- . . . that is the third angel's message." (Jones, G. C. Bulletin, 1893, p. 207) "In Jesus Christ as He was in sinful flesh, God has demonstrated before the universe that He can so take possession of sinful flesh as to manifest His own presence, His power, and His glory, instead of sin manifesting itself... Then God will so take us, and so use us, that our sinful selves shall not appear to influence or affect anybody; but God will manifest His righteous self, His glory, before men, in spite of all ourselves and our sinfulness... And that is the mystery of God, 'Christ in you, the hope of glory,'--God manifest in sinful flesh." (Jones, G. C. Bulletin, 1895, p. 303)

"Now the flesh of Jesus Christ was our flesh, and in it was all 'that is in our flesh,--all the tendencies to sin that are in our flesh were in His flesh, drawing upon Him to get Him to consent to sin." (Jones, G. C. Bulletin, 1895, p. 328) "Perfection, perfection of character, is the Christian goal--perfection attained in human flesh in this world. Christ attained it in human flesh in this world, and thus made and consecrated a way by which, in Him, every believer can attain it." (Jones, The Consecrated Way to Christian Perfection, p. 84) "But before probation ends, there will be a people so complete in Him that in spite of their sinful flesh, they will live sinless lives. They will live sinless lives in mortal flesh, because He who has demonstrated that He has power over all flesh lives in them--lives a sinless life in sinful flesh." (Waggoner, G. C. Bulletin, 1901, p. 146)

Don't you agree that this is a rare message today? Instead of studying this message and learning how to live this message, we are very divided on whether Christ took our fallen or Adam's unfallen nature. We are even advising our people not to discuss it at all. We are pretty sure that perfection is a bad word, and that sinless living is a fanatical extreme. Satan has done a masterful job of closing our minds to the only message which can prepare us for the second coming. But Satan hasn't done his job well enough. In spite of his best efforts to destroy this message, it is alive and well, and more and more people are waking up to its importance.

I believe that God's people will not let this golden opportunity pass them by again. I see an awakening among church members, and I don't think that Satan will he able to put them all to sleep again. But mark one thing. This awakening is happening among a small minority of church members. The majority continue to sleep on in a death sleep, assuming that, as long as they keep coming to church, they are safe. What a tragic awakening it will he when, too late, most Seventh-day Adventists will realize that they have the mark of the beast. If you want to avoid this tragedy, and if you want to see Christ return to this earth very soon, then I plead with you to reorder your lives if necessary. Make the study of the 1888 message your top priority, and spend more time in study and prayer than ever before in your lives.

Listen to God's appeal to us through His inspired messenger. "Light is flashing from the throne of God. And what is this for--It is that a people may he prepared to stand in the day of God. You who have devoted time and money to the adornment of your apparel and to the decoration of your homes, I would ask you, 'Is Christ formed within you the hope of glory?' It's too late in the day to he taken up with the frivolous things of the world too late for any superficial work to be done. It is too late in the day to cry out against men for manifesting too much earnestness in the service of God; to say, 'You are excited; you are too intense, too positive.'" (RH March 4, 1890)....."

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/documents/sermons/pri-ijrc.html
Posted By: Colin

Re: Ellen White and the view on the 'daily' - 07/03/11 04:44 AM

Dennis Priebe's not bad, but the 1888 message is far more than just that the Son of God taking our sinful nature as his own - a teaching unanimously held by the church till 1949, as documented by Jean Zurcher in Touched With Our Feelings, available through the ABC.

The 1888 message is indeed the power of justification by faith, the power to become sons of God; yet, the power of the message is based on the full truth of the cross, and not just the full truth of the incarnation. The 1888 message brought the cross of Christ into the sanctuary truth of 1844. The cross of Christ is set at the heart of the message of cleansing the sanctuary.

...So, Dennis Priebe needs to add more to his presentation.

Still, do the so-called "historic Adventists", in championing the Christology of Waggoner and Jones, also support their teaching of the cross? Would we hear that from Dennis Priebe, today, too?

On "the daily", yes, the pioneers' view, thanks indeed to William Miller, that it means paganism (not pagan Rome itself only), holds true, as documented in the study by Pastor John Peters, in "The Mystery of the Daily". This meaning encourages us to preserve the full, pure truth of the everlasting gospel, present truth.

Getting our faith right is pretty important.
Posted By: His child

Re: Ellen White and the view on the 'daily' - 07/03/11 07:19 PM

"So we can see were the seeds of unbelief in the Spirit of prophecy were sown, and now many point back to the 1919 Bible Conference as proof that Ellen White is not inspired. The leaders did not see that they would cause such a issue, and never dreamed of the effect it would have many years later as others stumbled on the 'stone' they unknowingly set..."

Quite interesting, but too much, too long, and not enough time to digest smaller chunks. Have to come back to it.

Counsel on daily was good. Now that it is understood, those premature ideas would only have gotten into the way of progressing light and been a stumbling block "unknowingly set".
Posted By: dedication

Re: Ellen White and the view on the 'daily' - 07/05/11 05:18 AM

QUOTE: "On "the daily", yes, the pioneers' view, thanks indeed to William Miller, that it means paganism (not pagan Rome itself only), holds true, as documented in the study by Pastor John Peters, in "The Mystery of the Daily"."



I could never, and still cannot see how that view fits in with sanctuary message that is so prominant in Daniel.

Nor can I see why anyone would say the so called "new view" is the same as the protestant churches. IT ISN'T, never was and never will be.

1. EGW says repeatedly that she has no light concerning "the daily".
Yet, for some reason people who cling to Miller's interpretation ignore those statements and cling to one, single vague reference she made to "the daily" in the Early Writings where she speaks of time setting.
She told the debaters NOT to use that statement when debating the "daily", yet now people use it all the time.

2. William Miller did NOT understand the sanctuary message. So why would we look to him as the authority on issues in these chapters that outline Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary?

3. Crosir and Edson, in their discovery of the sanctuary doctrine in scripture see the DAILY as the "daily ministry" in the earthly sanctuacy and contrast it with the YEARLY ministry, or day of Atonement.

The so called "new view" was what actually brought the sanctuary doctrine to light in the first place!

It was a KEY that unlocked the "cleansing of the sanctuary" dilemma that had lead them into a great disappointment.


4. The Sanctuary outline in Daniel.

Daniel chapter 9 speaks of Christ's work in the courtyard (represented by this earth) the altar (cross) of sacrifice, His baptism (laver). The chapter also leads into the next step (anointing the Holy)

Daniel chapter 8 speaks of Christ's daily ministry in the heavenly sanctuary that was eclipsed by the little horn. The daily refering to "Holy Place Ministry" of the sanctury.
The chapter also leads into the next step (when the cleansing would take place)

Daniel chapter 7 speaks of Christ's ministry in the Most Holy Place when He is brought before the Ancient of Days, the Court is Seated and He, as the Son of Man receives the kingdom that Adam lost, and through Him the faithful receive inheritance with HIM.



Posted By: gordonb1

Re: Ellen White and the view on the 'daily' - 07/05/11 03:18 PM


Unfortunately, most rely on someone else's study. Better to get it straight from the Word itself.

This could begin with a study of the Hebrew word taw-meed 8548 - daily, continual.

Christ our High Priest is continually working to reconcile us to God the Father while Satan is continually seeking our separation from God.
Posted By: Colin

Re: Ellen White and the view on the 'daily' - 07/06/11 09:16 AM

Yes, the Bible itself is important to study, on this. grin

...Dedication, EGW was spot on in encouraging Bible study, too. smile

The 'new view'...: Antiochus Epiphanes is the protestant view, by applying "the daily" to the Jerusalem services. We now apply that "the daily" to the heavenly Jerusalem and sanctuary service, having published the Miller view of "the daily", previously. Does our view fit that well, or is it an unreasonable leap of logic in prophetic interpretation?

It's: "the daily," because it's totally missing a noun to describe...! That's why "the" is so important. This leaves of course just the context for finding an application and noun to attribute it to. That it also can be "the continual", we find paganism throughout Dan 8 itself, and a continual acceleration and increase of self-exaltation against the God of heaven of each of the heathen powers depicted by their symbols: how is each described?

Is "the daily" automatically referring to the verified sanctuary meaning it has, generally? This is a symbolic chapter..., but also consider the Masoretic reading of Dan 8:11
Quote:
Yea, even to the prince of the host he magnified himself; and by him the daily was taken away...

What is translated in our modern translations, including the KJV, is the Septuagint, in this verse, giving the obvious difference in wording.

The word "by" in "and by him" can be either "by" or "from" him. The interpretation is simple: from the reading of the Masoretic - given its priority over the Septuagint, that the little horn possesses "the daily" and one phase of that little horn took that commodity of "the daily" from the other phase. Whatever "the daily", as a symbol, means, that little horn symbol has two phases, remember. smile

Since Dan 8 is full of sanctuary symbols, and they are all interpreted as heathen powers except "the daily", why should "the daily" be an exception. What of a heathen application, especially given the Masoretic reading?

As for Dan 8:14, yes, that is God's heavenly sanctuary wink grin - more, next.
Posted By: Colin

Re: Ellen White and the view on the 'daily' - 07/06/11 07:38 PM

Let me repeat. smile

So the daily services of the sanctuary service are famous. Does that mean "the daily" in a prophetic, symbolic usage irrefutably means what it literally means in the Bible's sanctuary teaching? "Sacrifice" is added to the text, as Ellen White points out as has any good Bible teacher, so the real meaning of "the daily" clearly needs more Bible study than verifying the clear, literal meaning of the daily sanctuary ministrations of the OT. smile cool
Posted By: dedication

Re: Ellen White and the view on the 'daily' - 07/07/11 03:49 AM

If one only presents two options -- as in

1. The chapter is speaking of the earthly sanctuary with it's services, with Ephiphanes as a key player etc. which is basically the pretreist view.
OR

2. The chapter only concern is the exaltation of paganism throughout history and God will cleanse paganism out...

well, then any historicist would choose option #2.

HOWEVER -- I don't agree with either of those options.

Daniel's visions point us to the HEAVENLY sanctuary, not the earthly.

Yes, there are lots of symbols in Daniel.
The earthly sanctuary was itself a symbol -- a type . It's relevance is in helping us to understand Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary, not to draw attention to itself as the fulfilment.
Thus our reference to the earthly is to study it's symbolic practices in order to understand Christ's ministry in heaven. Daniel's visions are about Christ's work in the HEAVENLY sanctuary AFTER Christ's ascension to heaven.

The "daily" does not include sacrificing --
WHY?
Because Christ already made the one and only all sufficent sacrifice by the time He enters the Holy Place in the Heavenly sanctuary! So of course the daily does not include sacrificing.

However, if "daily" means "paganism", then sacrifices are included, for paganism had lots of sacrifices and the papal take over continues with "sacrifices" offering Christ afresh every day in their mass.


Yes, Daniel is full of sanctuary symbols -- and the MAIN message, for me, is how it unfolds the work in the HEAVENLY sanctuary, and Christ's work there.

Indeed, on earth satan is very busy opposing that work and that is quite graphically shown in the prophecies as well, but the BIG and most important part is Christ's work in the HEAVENLY sanctuary.
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: Ellen White and the view on the 'daily' - 07/08/11 04:32 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Indeed, on earth satan is very busy opposing that work and that is quite graphically shown in the prophecies as well, but the BIG and most important part is Christ's work in the HEAVENLY sanctuary.

Indeed. To keep us in darkness and unrepentant until probation closes is Satan's constant aim. All sins must be confessed to the Mediator before He (Michael/Christ) stands up. We must avail ourselves of his continual ministry if we hope to be reconciled to the Father. Continual repentance, overcoming, moving from strength to strength.
__________
Posted By: His child

Re: Ellen White and the view on the 'daily' - 07/10/11 08:23 AM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Originally Posted By: dedication
Indeed, on earth satan is very busy opposing that work and that is quite graphically shown in the prophecies as well, but the BIG and most important part is Christ's work in the HEAVENLY sanctuary.

Indeed. To keep us in darkness and unrepentant until probation closes is Satan's constant aim. All sins must be confessed to the Mediator before He (Michael/Christ) stands up. We must avail ourselves of his continual ministry if we hope to be reconciled to the Father. Continual repentance, overcoming, moving from strength to strength.
__________



Originally Posted By: dedication
If one only presents two options -- as in

1. The chapter is speaking of the earthly sanctuary with it's services, with Ephiphanes as a key player etc. which is basically the pretreist view.
OR

2. The chapter only concern is the exaltation of paganism throughout history and God will cleanse paganism out...

well, then any historicist would choose option #2.

HOWEVER -- I don't agree with either of those options.


I have been following this thread wondering if it would ever go anywhere.

Some thoughts on the "Daily"

Ellen White cautioned those in her day not to get hung up on the daily. I believe that caution was because it was to be revealed as time continues to near its close. There are allot of EGW quotes that say Daniel and John (Revelation) are to explain themselves by their fulfillment.

Has the endtime daily been fulfilled?

Daily as rendered in Strong’s also means:

08548 דימת tamiyd taw-meed’
from an unused root meaning to stretch; n m; {See TWOT on 1157 @@ "1157a"}
AV-continually 53, continual 26, daily 7, always 6, alway 4, ever 3, perpetual 2, continual employment 1, evermore 1, never 1; 104

1) continuity, perpetuity, to stretch
1a) continually, continuously (as adverb)
1b) continuity (subst)

Thus from the context in Daniel, the daily is something or someone who is to continue

We know that sacrifice has often been added by the translators to convey what they thought was the essence of what Daniel was saying. (added word sacrifice removed below). And since the translators understood daily as being linked to sacrifice, they often have other instances where their renditions of Daniel reflect their "understandings"

The word translated as "host" IS also "appointed time" In the context since Daily conveys an amount of time to continue, the rendition of an appointed time is something that must be considered. An appointed time continues how long? Or how long until the appointed time?

These texts mention the daily. I have removed from them added words that are not in the original, but that were not identified as having been added by the translators (added words are usually placed in italics - thus by not putting them in italics, it gives the impression that they belong to the text rather than they are man's interpretation). You can readily check the verses that I have adjusted in the Bible of your choosing or compare them to Strong's:

Originally Posted By: Daniel 8:11
Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince for the appointed time, his continuation <08548> was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.


Someone magnified himself even to the prince for the appointed time. Then some part of speech relating to continuing indicates that his continuation was taken away. Place also is foundation. Thus when he was not allowed to continue, the foundation which is something that is established was cast down as well.

Originally Posted By: Daniel 8:12
And an appointed time was given him to continue <08548> by reason of transgression, and he cast down the truth to the ground; and he practiced, and prospered.


It can be the place, foundation, or sanctuary casting truth to the ground and practicing and prospering. But the one that is to continue for the appointed time is also transgressing in that he is casting truth to the ground and practicing and prospering until he ceases to continue.

Originally Posted By: Daniel 8:13
Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning he that continues <08548>, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? [note the amount of time given in response]: Unto two thousand <0505> and three <07969> hundred <03967> days <06153> <01242>]


The transgression of desolation is often thought of as the abomination that makes desolate or the abomination of desolation. It is a sin that results in the destruction of the sinner.

The number is given as 2300

...two thousand <0505> and three <07969> hundred <03967> days <06153> <01242>

Strong's does not list the <505> in the plural that the translators used to get 2000, he just lists his words in the singular form. That does not mean that there is anything wrong with the 2000, but it makes it easier to identify another Scripture that at first glance has a very similar number.

...the thousand <0505> three <07969> hundred <03967> and five <02568> and thirty <07970> days <03117>.

Knowing that the 2300-days were 2300-years that ended in 1843 and again in 1844 is helpful.

Originally Posted By: EGW
“the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them.” EW 74.1


Thus God ordained that the 2300-years ended in 1843 and that is Bible Truth.

Originally Posted By: EGW
“The prophetic periods reached to 1844 and that the same evidence which they had presented to show that the prophetic periods closed in 1843 proved that they would terminate in 1844.” EW 236.1


And BASED ON THE SAME EVIDENCE the 2300-years ended a second time in 1844. That is Bible Truth.

The Advent Pioneers linked the 1260-years of papal rule from 538-1798 to the 2300-year prophecy; and the 1290-years as 508-1798; and the 1335-years from 508-1843. Thus the 1260, 1290, & 1335 link to the 2300-year prophecy.

That established link between the 2300 and 1260 connects Daniel 8:11-12 to the papacy or popes that were to continue. That is made more evident when Daniel and Revelation explain themselves.

Originally Posted By: Revelation 13 5
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


In Daniel 8:11-12, the daily continues during the 2300-years and it links to the papacy that continues 1260-years, which is specifically identified power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Originally Posted By: Daniel 11:31
And the power continuing to pollute the sanctuary of strength shall be taken away: the one that continued; after the abomination that maketh desolate is uttered.


After President Bush II uttered that Islam is good 9/20/02, [the abomination that makes desolate by giving hope that there is salvation apart from Christ as our savior and accepting Him fully (the oblation- applying the sacrifice) was set up] then Pope John-Paul II (the pope that received the deadly wound that was healed and lived 42-months after 9/11/01) died.

Originally Posted By: Daniel 12:11
At the time that the one who continues shall be taken away, at the end of the 1290-days, the abomination that maketh desolate will have been set up.


The one who continues relates to the papacy, specifically Pope John-Paul II, He died 1290-days after 9.02/01. From a study of Daniel 9, he issued the endtime decree to rebuild Jerusalem, which was not about Jerusalem at all but its name sake: See Strong’s Jerusalem =" teaching of peace" His teaching of peace was issued 31 May 1998. And when the endtime rendition of Daniel 9 is understood, it counts down to the anointing of the Endtime Prince of the covenant, and that man was installed in office on the very day foretold in Daniel 9 and he failed 9/1/01. 1290-days after his failure, is 2 April 2005 the very day that Pope John-Paul II died.

And Protestant Prince of the Covenant confirmed the covenant with many for exactly one week (7-days) and in the midst of the week, he uttered that the beliefs of Muslims are good. They teach that there is salvation apart from Jesus (GW tore down the sacrifice as unnecessary) and the oblation is accepting the application of the sacrifice to the penitent sinner. With a teaching that promotes salvation without Jesus, there is no necessity to apply His blood to the sinner.

This is already more than most SDA’s can handle, but it is a beginning to understand the endtime prophecies.
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