Some signs will happen again?

Blessings everyone.

There was a statement I read by Ellen G. White where she said something to the effect that some signs would be fulfilled again. I think it was in Early Writings, but I can't remember the exact quote.

Does anyone know what I am talking about? Hahaha...

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens, and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future. The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior . . . with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood" (Isaiah 9:5),--what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule. {GC 36.2}

I don't think these are the ones you were referring to:

However there are quite a few quotes saying
History will be repeated

Thanks dedication,

It wasn't the wording I remembered, or thought I remembered, but they were excellent statements all the same.

Thanks Mountain Man,

That isn't exactly what I'm looking for though.

Alchemy, what was the context or subject of the quote you are looking for? Pray for the Spirit of Remembrance to remind you.

Actually what you should be looking for is the word of Jesus Christ concerning the repetition of history. He said, "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man." (Luke 17:26) And again, "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."

Even Solomon tells you this saying, "That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun." (Ecc. 1:9) Why drink water from a broken cistern?

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As I remember it, the context had to do with the signs in the USA. The falling of the stars and moon turned to blood or something like that.

It has been a while since I've seen it, and I'm afraid I'm remembering what it meant more than how it was written.

I see; but beyond what is written, I can't help you. Sorry.

How about reading through Joel?

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. (MKJV)

Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall gather in their light. (MKJV)

Is this related to the same event or two separate events?

I see what you are saying now Alchemy.

There are many times that Mrs White was inspired to say "history is to be repeated".

The moon turning to blood, the great dark day, and the falling of the stars is connected to Matthew 24 and Luke 21. There was a local (USA) fulfillment at the unsealing of the book of Daniel before 1844 but it will be repeated in the last days on a universal scale when the heavens will roll away like a scroll.

This is evident in her writings but I am not sure she actually said those words but the sentiment you are expressing is definetely implied. I have heard several sermons on this exact point which made the argument just like you are, so you probably heard this from a pastor.

Peace.

The quote below is remarkable for several reasons. It was written December 22, 1890, from Washington, D. C., to "Dear Children, Edson, Emma, and Willie." The first part of the letter gives her children the news of what she’s been doing. The second half launches into a description of final events. Among many other interesting comments on the end times she says the following:


If she had stopped at her statement that "trumpet after trumpet" will sound, we might be justified in questioning whether she really was referring to the seven trumpets of Revelation 8 to 11 which Adventists place mainly in the past. (All but the seventh.) But since she links her comment on the trumpets to the vials or plagues logic requires us to consider the possibility that she really does mean what she appears to be saying - that all seven trumpets and plagues apply to the end times and that the trumpets will be repeated. But, you be the judge.

And so to answer your question, if the trumpets are repeated, they do indicate that a third of the light of the sun and moon will be obscured during the fourth trumpet. This could be the primary fulfillment of the sun being darkened and the moon turning to blood.

Below is another quote along the same lines but in this one she links the seals as well as the trumpets and plagues together and again places all three in the future. The context of this statement is that she and some co-workers were caught in a severe thunderstorm in Australia and the experience gave her forebodings of what the time of trouble will be like:


So, it's well worth the effort in my view to look carefully at the implications of a future fulfillment of both the trumpets and seals. I don't doubt that the sun and moon will be darkened again. Pastor Hagee has captured the popular imagination recently with his book on blood moons. The upcoming blood moons (April 2014 is the first of four) are likely not a fulfillment of the fourth trumpet because in the fourth trumpet the sun will be affected too. But it is possible that the blood moons are related to Joel. We'll know soon if they are.

The seven trumpets are just the seven messages to the seven churches. The trumpets are figurative. There's nothing to be like "trumpet after trumpet will sound." Sorry.

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James, have you reviewed the fruit of Ellen White's ministry, her alignment with scripture and her prophetic track record? But Ellen White aside, the first rule of prophetic interpretation is to read a passage literally unless this is contextually impossible. In the case of the trumpets the literal approach works and so it should be preferred.

Good morning Mark,
I think you hit on a very important topic-- interpretation.
There is much said about that in the Scriptures, SOP and the Elijah message.

I'd like to bring some thoughts on this subject.

Ellen White give some specific advice to this that really addresses interpretation issues, such as,

"God has given us His word that we may become acquainted with its teachings and know for ourselves what He requires of us. When the lawyer came to Jesus with the inquiry, “What shall I do to inherit eternal life?” the Saviour referred him to the Scriptures, saying: “What is written in the law? how readest thou?”

Ignorance will not excuse young or old, nor release them from the punishment due for the transgression of God’s law; because there is in their hands a faithful presentation of that law and of its principles and claims. It is not enough to have good intentions; it is not enough to do what a man thinks is right or what the minister tells him is right.

His soul’s salvation is at stake, and he should search the Scriptures for himself. However strong may be his convictions, however confident he may be that the minister knows what is truth, this is not his foundation. He has a chart pointing out every waymark on the heavenward journey, and he ought not to guess at anything." (GC 598.1)

"The truths most plainly revealed in the Bible have been involved in doubt and darkness by learned men, who, with a pretense of great wisdom, teach that the Scriptures have a mystical, a secret, spiritual meaning not apparent in the language employed. These men are false teachers. It was to such a class that Jesus declared: “Ye know not the Scriptures, neither the power of God.” Mark 12:24.

The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed. Christ has given the promise: “If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine.”[/u] John 7:17.

If men would but take the Bible as it reads, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands upon thousands who are now wandering in error." GC 599.3

(We see that a real trap comes when we ignore the plain words of Inspiration. A slippery road then becomes our path and doctrines and false truths develop from there. For instance, as we pointed out in our Sunday law/ church judgment study, when people destroy the plain word "all" and make it "not all" or when they say 144,000 means "not 144,000" then they are in the hand of the evil one, whose wish is to destroy them by having them destroy God's plain simple word (and worse yet --teach it) and base their belief on something other than the "Word" which is Christ.)

"Many a portion of Scripture which learned men pronounce a mystery, or pass over as unimportant, is full of comfort and instruction to him who has been taught in the school of Christ. One reason why many theologians have no clearer understanding of God's word is, they close their eyes to truths which they do not wish to practice.

An understanding of Bible truth depends not so much on the power of intellect brought to the search as on the singleness of purpose, the earnest longing after righteousness." (GC 599.2)

(We see that our motive is a prime requirement to understand Scripture. Some privately "interpret" because they have a secret motive (even unbeknownst to themselves) that they wish to exalt self, as some kind of divine teacher instead of "longing after righteousness".)

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is on any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:20-21)

(The Holy Spirit, aka "The Spirit of Truth", is the One that guides us, our carnal finite minds can and do falsify the Scriptures, if we are not led by God's Spirit.)

On last point I'd like to make is that in our discussions, I have found a very good clue in finding out where people are at (in relation to their walk with the Lord). When we make points of truth based on Inspired writings, and we do not receive acknowledgement, but rather a jumping OVER to a new point, we can be assured that they prefer not truth but rather "their" ideas first and foremost. We are told that those who do not love the truth will be lost (2 Thes, 2:10) So how do we show we love truth? By acknowledgement of it, in all it's forms.

So bottom line, I believe in what you said, " the first rule of prophetic interpretation is to read a passage literally unless contextually impossible."

Brother Mark is right on in his approach at the Testimonies. After reading His input considerably I believe he sees them in their correct light, as an extension of scripture both in meaning and symbology.

God has given an interpreter of scripture for the last days, Mrs Ellen White, but she did not lay down every single point to be read, she gave clues for those in the very last days to discover and interpret, the same kind of clues that scripture gives.

A lesser light pointing to the greater light is still light, the same substance that scripture was written in.

God used the writings of Mrs White as an extension of scripture, in the perfect light, leading men to the perfect understanding of His Holy Word through the same Spirit that gave God's Holy word. This is why I am enchouraged to believe that the 144,000 will arrise from the SDA church.

"Luther’s pen was a power, and his writings, scattered broadcast, stirred the world. The same agencies are at our command, with facilities multiplied a hundred-fold. Bibles, publications in many languages, setting forth the truth for this time, are at our hand, and can be swiftly carried to all the world. We are to give the last warning of God to men, and what should be our earnestness in studying the Bible, and our zeal in spreading the light!—Testimonies for the Church 6:403. {GW 390.2}

"A lesser light pointing to the greater light is still light, the same substance that scripture was written in.

God used the writings of Mrs White as an extension of scripture, in the perfect light, leading men to the perfect understanding of His Holy Word through the same Spirit that gave God's Holy word. This is why I am enchouraged to believe that the 144,000 will arrise from the SDA church."

Well said brother James.

Do you expect locust that resemble women to ascend soon from a US pit?

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When the sun is shining, there's no need for the moon. The only people who need candles are those who have shut themselves away in darkness.

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And you might be right James.

I have decided to read Early Writings again because I think that is where I read something to this effect.

It can't hurt.

Do you mind if I rephrase your question, James? I think what you're asking is, if the trumpets are literal, how do you interpret the fifth?

Here's the fifth trumpet description of the locust/horses.
James or anyone, would you care to offer a literal explanation?

Here's a description from the famous Mayo Clinic of the results or symptoms of a scorpion bit:

I would like to point out some thoughts on Rev 9:3-9
as to their meaning.

Rev. 9:3, 4. "And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

With the smoke symbolizing the crucifixion, and the locusts coming out of the smoke, the only admissible conclusion is that they are symbolical of the Christians who came as a consequence of the sacrificial blood that was shed on Calvary.

And the fact that they were to hurt "only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads," makes this conclusion even more inescapable. For only a true Christian, one who has a personal experience with God, a perfect knowledge of His Word, and who is filled with His Spirit, can discriminate saint from sinner.

He, only, can recognize who has the seal and who does not have it, when the latter is cloaked in a counterfeit robe of righteousness.

The idea that the locusts are symbolical of the "Saracen" warriors is both unscriptural and illogical, for, unlike the locusts, the Saracens killed as many as opposed their way. Especially did they trouble the Christians -- those who had the "seal of God in their foreheads." And such precisely is Satan's business, that he might kill all who have the seal of God.

To those though, whom the "locusts" represent, the restraining order "was given that they should not kill" (Rev. 9:5) anyone, their business instead being to hurt "only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." Rev. 9:4. For this reason, also the one prior, the "locusts" cannot symbolize the followers of Mohammed or of any other of Satan's agents.

Had the Christians not been told "that they should not kill," they naturally would not have known that they were entering into the period of grace, and so would have followed the example of the Jewish nation when, as a theocracy charged to execute God's judgments, they were commanded to kill and to drive out of the land (as was revealed by the first three trumpets) both those who were departed from Him and those who did not acknowledge Him as the only true God.

His command, however, to the locusts "that they should not kill," inaugurates a significant change in His people's dealings with His enemies. The great principle of non-resistance enjoined
in this change, Christ enunciated in His sermon on the mount:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." Matt. 5:38, 39.

Preaching Christ and Him crucified was a bitter cup to quaff for those who, because they loved sin and despised reproof, hated Him and His people. The Christians consequently became a great nuisance and vexation to their antagonists. Indeed, just as the Old and New Testament Scriptures, the "two witnesses," which are the "two olive trees," -- "two prophets" (Rev. 11:3, 10), -- were so great a torment to the wicked during the "forty and two months" (Rev. 11:2), just so the locusts became so great a torment by the preaching of the gospel that both the Jews and the Romans persecuted and killed as many of them as time allowed, thus fulfilling "the first woe."

Just think how many were converted on the day of Pentecost alone -- "about three thousand souls"! And following that "the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved"! Acts 2:41, 47. This sudden great increase in numbers among the Christians, after the crucifixion, made them appear to be swarming like "locusts."

Then, too, locusts can neither be frightened nor made to defend themselves under any provocation. Neither is there felt in the human heart any sorrow or pity for them, be they ever so ruthlessly killed. Yet they cannot be exterminated by the human hand.

For these reasons, they are a perfect symbol of the early Christians' indomitable courage and meekness in the face of the cruel oppression of them by their heartless enemies, and of the impossibility of the latter's bringing about an extinction of Christianity.

Rev. 9:7, first clause: "And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle."

Horses are prepared for battle by being well trained, a fact which in this connection manifestly denotes that the early Christians swiftly and proficiently marched on with their message, as horses in battle array.

Rev. 9:7, second clause. "And on their heads were as it were crowns like gold."

So obvious as to require no interpretation, the locusts' having "crowns of gold" signifies their being invested with authority pure and excellent: the authority of Christ. And such was exclusively the investment of the members of the early Christian church. Christ secured it unto them in His commitment:

"I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matt. 16:19.

Rev. 9:7, third clause. "And their faces were as the faces of men."

Observe that the locusts have human faces symbolizing intelligence, but mark especially that they are masculine. Were they feminine, the symbol would be faulty, for the face of a woman does not naturally characterize a soldier.

Rev. 9:8, first clause. "And they had hair as the hair of women."

A woman's hair being her glory (1 Cor. 11:15), and a "woman" being symbolical of the church (Jer. 6:2), the feminine hair shows that the "locusts" were affiliated with the church, and that she was their glory. "So that we ourselves," says Paul, "glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure." 2 Thess. 1:4.

Rev. 9:8, second clause. "And their teeth were as the teeth of lions."

Though a lion is the most fearsome of beasts, yet had he no teeth, he would be scarcely more fearsome than a dog. The locusts' having the teeth of lions denotes that the early Christians had far greater potential power to defend themselves and to kill every beast (man) that was not of their kind (a Christian) than had ancient Israel against the heathen in their day.

For this reason it was necessary to command the "locusts" not to kill. A demonstration of the power which they possessed is seen in the fate of Ananias and Sapphira, who instantly, upon Peter's exposing their sin of dissimulation, fell dead at the apostle's feet (Acts 5:1-11). Clearly, then, if Peter, without exertion on his part, had sufficient power to destroy hypocrites who came into his presence, he most certainly had as much power to destroy the heathen who attempted to retard the advancement of the gospel.

Rev. 9:9, first clause. "And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron."

The Scriptural significance of "breastplate" is "faith and love" (1 Thess. 5:8) -- the Christian's only defense. And the locusts' breastplates were "as it were breastplates of iron," the strongest metal known. The faith, therefore, of those fearless soldiers of the cross was so invincible, and their love for Christ and for His people so pure and unconquerable, that "daily in the temple, and in every house they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ" (Acts 5:42), though for so doing they were killed like locusts. O what a contrast between these heroic love-slaves of Christ and most professed Christians of today!

Rev. 9:9, second clause. "And the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle."

As has been seen so far, the symbols of the fifth trumpet show that though the early disciples were mercilessly persecuted and killed yet they openly and fearlessly swarmed to the battle-line to proclaim the gospel of Christ. And in giving an individual sample of their fearless efforts, Paul says: "I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house, testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks...not knowing the things that shall befall me." Acts 20:20-22.

How many of today's disciples of Christ would knowingly risk their lives for the proclamation of the gospel? Even in time of peace most Christians would rather send a missionary to do the work which the Lord calls to be done than to go do it themselves.

In thus serving by substitute, by proxy as it were, they are not unlike the cuckoo who lays her eggs in other birds' nests for them to hatch and to care for. And some, because of their ignorance of Christ's majesty and of His power to protect, and because of their blindness to their duty and to the "recompense of reward," are even ashamed openly to confess Him in word and in deed.

Locusts aside, "was as", "were like", "like unto". One can literally compare things which are much unlike without requiring them to be those things.

As for locusts, it was talking about the bottomless pit, the smoke arising from it, and locusts coming from it. How would one literally describe satan and his angels being turned loose upon humanity, and not literally seen, but disguised?

Did you know that the original fulfillment of Revelation 9's fifth trump was in rise of the Muslim/ Muhamadan world during the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire?

"As the first four of the Seven Trumpets mark the ruin of the Western Empire of Rome, and the planting, in its place, of the peoples that form the nations of Western Europe to-day; so the Fifth and Sixth Trumpets mark the ruin of the Eastern Empire of Rome, and introduce the peoples by whom that ruin was accomplished; and who are the modern nations of Eastern Europe and of Asia. {GNT 60.2}This trumpet covers a period of eight hundred and seventeen years,—A. D. 632-1449,—and shows the rise and work of the Mohammedans in the destruction of Eastern Rome—first the Arabian Mohammedans and later the Turkish Mohammedans. Of this Albert Barnes remarks that, “with surprising unanimity, commentators have agreed in regarding this as referring to the empire of the Saracens, or to the rise and progress of the religion and the empire set up by Mohammed.” We can not see how anyone who will read the prophecy, and Gibbon’s history of Mohammed and his successors in the light of it, can disagree with the application of the prophecy to the Mohammedans. {GNT 61.1}
The term “bottomless pit,” which denotes the place of their rise, is from the Greek word abussos, and signifies a waste, desolate region. And a brief sketch of Arabia makes plain the significance and aptness of the term as applied to that country. {GNT 62.1}

Can anyone see how the fifth trump could be sounded again? Maybe in 9/11?

First of all, that is not true. The Fifth trumpet comes about as a consequence of the fallen star (Wormwood) on the sources of the rivers and springs of water. Now, that star arises, gathers about himself "locusts" of every sort and goes out into the world wreaking havoc in the lives of others. The Fifth trumpet is Christianity run amok, overtaken by militarism and materialism, conquest and the love of money in foreign lands.

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Secondly, 9/11 is not the fulfillment of any Bible prophecy. It is part of a larger warning to the world that its IDOL of filthy lucre (THE WORLD TRADE CENTER) is not the rock of salvation or even, of safety. But there is no prophet in the land to make it known to men. Christianity is in a deep sleep; and SDA have been given up to blindness in Ellen White.

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Mr Peterson,

If you don't even want to know what we believe, or even respect the fact that you are on a SDA website why are you here?

This is what the historic SDA church has believed since the days of the pioneers.

"with surprising unanimity, commentators have agreed in regarding this as referring to the empire of the Saracens, or to the rise and progress of the religion and the empire set up by Mohammed.” We can not see how anyone who will read the prophecy, and Gibbon’s history of Mohammed and his successors in the light of it, can disagree with the application of the prophecy to the Mohammedans." {GNT 61.1}

The long flowing hair of the Muslim's riding horses and wearing armor is what Rev 9's fifth trump is talking about.

Read Gibbon's history of Muhammed, you will see what all of the symbology means.

Who told you so? You are prophesying falsely by attributing the actions of the Church to people innocent of the crime.

The seven trumpets are about the Church. The Bible says so. It says, "And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets." (Rev. 8:2) Or have you thrown your copy of the Bible into the garbage, and hug instead that which will not profit you?

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Interesting. It just so happens that I heard a similar interpretation recently of the hoards of Joel 2 from a man I highly respect - David Gates. So I'm looking at this carefully. The main problem here in this fifth trumpet, 1st woe, is that the king of the locusts is Abaddon aka Apollyon which is Lucifer. I'm sure you've noticed this but how do you deal with it?

Re 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stood before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

Re 8:5 And the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar, and cast it into the earth. And voices and thunderings and lightnings and an earthquake occurred.
Re 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

If anyone thinks the trumpets only sound in the past, then what about verse 5 with the censer? If that is not about probation closing in the future or otherwise pointing to the future, what is it?

Would this mean the seven golden vials are about the Church, "the Bible says so", too?

Re 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave to the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.

Praise the Lord brother Mark,
The Spirit of Truth is guiding. When I first saw those explanations, I was like, "Wow, this is something quite unique and different." But as I studied it(prayed about it) seriously, the pieces came together.

There is a complete explanation of that issue you raised. Have to go to work but we respond when time allows. I can tell you there is a unique answer here as well. Just like the rest of those explanations.

The truths and interpretations, MUST be guided by the Spirit of Truth (John 16:13) and those who do His will are the ones who can discern them as intended(John 7:17). That is why the vast Christendom can't figure much out correctly (Prophecies). One interpretation here, one there. All of them having holes in them except one.

You are correct that the seven trumpets are blown by the seven angels of the seven dispensations of the Christian church, but the trumpet is blown as a judgment against the fallen church.

In other words, the judgments against Papal ROME are brought to light from the persecution they bring on the true church.

Every time there was a judgment against the fallen church it always comes as a result of their persecution of God's true people.

Historically most Adventist scholars believe the Trumps were fulfilled mainly in the past, beginning during the time of the 1,260 years of persecution in the dark ages up till the 2nd coming of the Lord, but there is more than enough biblical and Testimonies support for an end time fulfillment also, during the time of great tribulation when the daughters have joined the Mother in the persecution of the saints. So there is a fulfillment in the mothers reign in the Dark Ages, and there is a fulfillment in the days of the shaking and great persecution leading up to the plagues. I believe they have already begun since 9/11. We are seeing the final woa in the rising of the children of Ishmael.

What Kland has quoted is the best biblical support for the future fulfillment of the trumps. The casting of the censer into the earth is at the end of probation when Michael stands. But to be fair the majority of the biblical scholars say Revelation chapter 8 is not linear between 5-6. Repeat and enlarge... the most common theme of Revelation.

I believe it is for the effect of a double fulfillment that verse 5 appears to be out of place.

But I also believe the woes are summed into one large movement in these last days. The woes were judgments against the fallen church, because of their atrocities against the true church. God raised up the Muhammadan people to fulfill the prophecies of God for the great nation of Ishmael. So in these last days God is using the same powers against the people who have unified with the Harlot.

Also let's remember Mrs White does write that the SEVEN trumps have to sound one after another in the last days. She just says "trump after trump" which gives no specific number to look for.

Since the days of the first proclamation of the three angels messages many of the same things have come to pass in judgment against the fallen protestant churches.

"The main problem here in this fifth trumpet, 1st woe, is that the king of the locusts is Abaddon aka Apollyon which is Lucifer. I'm sure you've noticed this but how do you deal with it?"


Rev. 9:11. "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon."

Genuine Christians, as subjects of the kingdom of Christ, have over them Christ, their King. Ruling over them in Old Testament time (1 Cor. 10:1-4) as well as in New Testament time, He is therefore King over them in both periods. Consequently the Old Testament Scriptures being originally written in the Hebrew tongue give Him the name Abaddon, whereas the New Testament Scriptures, being originally written in the Greek, give Him the name Apollyon.

In the blazing light of this symbol, intensifying the illumination from the whole series of symbols of which it is a part, and which no human mind could either have devised or thus rightly interpreted, Christ is clearly seen to be King of His people in both the Old and the New Testament periods, and Author of the Scriptures in both the Hebrew and the Greek.

And from this fact it follows that as He is "the Word" (the Bible in human form), His Hebrew name, Abaddon, is also the name of the Old Testament Scriptures, and His Greek name, Apollyon, is also the name of the New Testament Scriptures.

Showing that he recognized Christ's sovereignty over the church not only in the New Testament period but also in the Old Testament period, Paul, in his epistle to the Corinthians, declared: "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were...baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea:...and did all drink the same
spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Cor. 10:1-4.

Woe to him who accepts the one Testament and casts aside the other, pays no attention to either, or exalts tradition above both!

Abaddon, Christ's name in the Hebrew, signifying Him as a "destroyer," shows that in the Old Testament period He simply destroyed many of His enemies; whereas Apollyon, His name in the Greek, signifying Him as an "exterminator," shows that in the New Testament period He will exterminate all the wicked. (What beautiful precision of connotation in these symbolic appellations!) And this exterminatory work is vividly pictured in the climactic scene:

"And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." Rev. 19:15-18.

To those, therefore, who accept Christ as their King, He is a Savior, while to those who refuse to have Him rule over them (Luke 19:14), He is a destroyer. Hence, accordingly, the curses, or judgments, fall (as the trumpets reveal) upon those who reject the teachings and the authority of the Bible, and who as a result do not have the seal.

These solemn facts gravely admonish us not to forget the Bible's warning that our treatment of It will bring one of two results -- death or life.

Found the following that compliments the above from a poster by the name of "am123"-

“And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.”
-Revelation 9:1

"Is the warden of a prison a prisoner himself? Is the warden of a prison a good guy or a bad guy? Abaddon is a good guy. This star with the key to the bottomless pit in REV 9:1 is the angel who lays hold of Satan and binds him for a thousand years in CHP 20 of REV:

“And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,”
—REV 20:1-2

and then afterwards kills the the dragon tossing him into the lake of fire:

10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
—REV 20:10

There's no such moment in time as the close of probation. But that is another subject entirely. Suffice it to say that the action of the angel typifies cleansing. "Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged." (Is. 6:6-7)

Let the Bible interpret itself. And every man be silent.

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By the time the seven plagues will be ready to be poured out, the gospel would have reached the entire world. That means that the entire world would have become the Church and God would then be judging His people, separating the good from the bad and punishing the bad. So, yes; both the trumpets and the plagues are about the Church.

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No. The trumpets are blown AGAINST THE PEOPLE OUTSIDE the church. The Church is declaring war on the world. The Fifth trumpet and the sixth are about God using the vagabonds in the Church to subject the world. A good example of this is the US Army, (supposedly Christian), waging war in the Middle East in attempts to bring democracy and freedom to those countries, the same as was done in Communist Eastern Europe.

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You have been deceived.

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Godslove, what about the five months duration of the trumpet. How do you interpret that and the hour day month and year of the sixth trumpet. Also how do you interpret the horses of the sixth trumpet. You're viewing them as the forces of good as well?

The angel of the bottomless pit is NOT CHRIST. The star fallen from heaven that makes the water bitter is NOT CHRIST. Be careful.

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I'm sorry, but I don't see you addressed this.

wow.

I guess it would be an understatement to say you have no problem with saying God kills people.

Brother Mark, yes good points we need to address, will send more on the other verses in chapter 9.

kland--"I guess it would be an understatement to say you have no problem with saying God kills people."

It's not a question of "me" having a problem with God killing people, it's a question of whether we can honestly say that the word "destroyer" is applicable or not. Look at the old testament history. Yes, God stretched out His hands all day long to save, yet what did He have to do continually in this period? Yes, sadly--destroy.

Just the one gigantic act in itself in Noah's time leaves no doubt about it (the whole world destroyed but EIGHT people!)

The vast amount of Jews killed in Moses time(For example Korah and the multitude), directly by God's hand, and ONLY 2 escaped (over 20 years) into the promised land.

The complete destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, except ONE family.

Let's not forget also, the large amount of slaying at the Lord's instruction of the cities and villages (Such as in Joshua's time).

"But to Israel he said, All day long I have stretched forth my hands to a disobedient and gainsaying people." (Romans 10:21)

I've heard, as I'm sure many others have that people often say , "The God of the Old Testament, can't be the God of the New Testament because of all the destroying He did to people." But yet, who is the One who has perfect justice? Who is the One who knows the ending from the beginning? Instead of doubting God's ways let's get on board and believe that ALL He does is right and just. The title --Destroyer does fit as Scripture says, yes, do I have a problem with what God does?-- No. Do I enjoy or like the fact that He has to destroy?--No.

"Do you think that I like to see wicked people die? says the Sovereign LORD. Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways and live." (Ezek. 18:23)


"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."(Isaiah 55:9)

Don't you see that the action of the angel in Rev. 8 reflects the action of the seraphim in Is. 6? They are both "cleansing the servants of God (the sanctuary)" by "fire"; and sending them out to declare the word of God.

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I'm sorry Godsloveandlaw but I had to reread this several times to make sure I wasn't misreading this but are you trying to say that Abaddon and Apolyon are Jesus? Are you being genuine or is this a joke?

I need to clarify this.

If that is the case and you are trying to say Jesus is the character Abaddon in Revelation, I truly think you are mistaken.

“The Third Angel’s Message. Its Basis in the Seven Trumpets” Advent Review and Sabbath Herald 77, 36, p. 568.

THE first four of the Seven Trumpets, as we have seen, mark the ruin of the Western Empire of Rome, and the planting, in its place, of the peoples that formed the nations of Western Europe to-day.

The fifth and sixth trumpets, likewise, mark the ruin of the Eastern Empire of Rome, and introduce the peoples by whom that ruin was accomplished, who are the modern nations of Eastern Europe and of Asia.

“And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon [“that is to say, a destroyer,” margin].” Revelation 9:1-11.

This trumpet covers a period of eight hundred and seventeen years,—A.D. 632-1449,—and shows the rise and work of the Mohammedans in the destruction of Eastern Rome—first the Arabian Mohammedans and later the Turkish Mohammedans. Of this Albert Barnes remarks that, “with surprising unanimity, commentators have agreed in regarding this as referring to the empire of the Saracens, or to the rise and progress of the religion and the empire set up by Mohammed.” We can not see how any one who will ready the prophecy, and Gibbon’s history of Mohammed and his successors in the light of it, can disagree with the application of the prophecy to the Mohammedans.

The term “bottomless pit,” which denotes the place of their rise, is from the Greek word abussos, and signifies a waste, desolate region. And to any one who will read Gibbon’s chapter L, paragraphs 2-5, the significance and aptness of the term as applied to Arabia will readily be discerned.

The vast hordes of the Mohammedans are shown under the symbol of a cloud of locusts; and in verses 7-9 the meaning of the symbol is made plain by the words, “The shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; ... and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.”

As to that which was “commanded them,” the history witnesses thus: “Remember that you are always in the presence of God, on the verge of death, in the assurance of judgment, and the hope of paradise. Avoid injustice and oppression, consult with your brethren, and study to preserve the love and confidence of your troops. When you fight the battle of the Lord, acquit yourselves like men, without turning your backs; but let not your victory be stained with the blood of women and children. Destroy no palm trees nor burn any fields of corn. Cut down no fruit trees, nor do any mischief to cattle, only such as you kill to eat. When you make any covenant or article, stand to it, and be as good as your word. As you go on, you will find some religious persons who live retired in monasteries, and propose to themselves to serve God that way; let them alone, and neither kill them nor burn their monasteries. And you will find another sort of people, that belong to the synagogue of Satan, who have shaven crowns; be sure you cleave their skulls, and give them no quarter till they either turn Mohammedan or pay tribute.”—“Decline and Fall,” LI, par. 10.

And, says the Scripture, “Their power was to hurt man five months.” Five months are one hundred and fifty days; this, being prophetic time,—a day for a year,—equals one hundred and fifty years, during which they were to hurt men.

This one hundred and fifty years is to be counted from the time that they had a king over them, as says verses 11: “They had a king over them.... whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon [“a destroyer,” margin].” For more than six hundred years the Mohammedans had no regularly organized government, and recognized no such dignitary as that which answers to the title of king. Each tribe, under its own chief, was independent of all the others, and came and went as it pleased. While this was the case, it is evident, and it is the fact too, that their character as “a destroyer,” was not, and could not be, such as it was after they were solidly united in one government, under the sway of a ruler recognized by all.
This is made more apparent when it is seen what was to be destroyed by this “destroyer.” The first four trumpets show the ruin of the Western Empire of Rome; and the fifth relates to the destruction of the Eastern Empire. And it is in the character of the destroyer of the last remains of the Roman Empire that this power acts. It was not as a destroyer of men as such, for of them it is said “that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months,” “and their power was to hurt men five months.” It is evident, then, that this character and work as “a destroyer,” relates to the final destruction of the Roman Empire, which was then represented in the Eastern Empire, with the capital at New Rome—Constantinople.

Othman was the caliph who established the organized government of the Mohammedans, and from him descended the name and title of the Ottoman Empire. It was under the organized power of Othman that the work of the destroyer began.

The work of destruction, then, which was to subvert the last remains of the Roman Empire, began July 27, 1299, and never ceased till the imperial power passed into the hands of Amurath, July 27, 1449. {ARSH September 4, 1900, p. 568.19}

And “one woe is passed; and, behold there come two woes more hereafter.” {ARSH September 4, 1900, p. 568.20}

Do you see the fulfillment of this prophecy historically? The prophecy was a time prophecy that was fulfilled and you want to change the meaning into confusion?

Look at this quote again very carefully because, Jesus= Apolion? man...

I can't go into it now, but examining the locusts to see whether they are the forces of good is worth the time. I'm undecided. Regarding the time elements, Godslove, if you give the trumpets a future day for day application it could work. If you put them in the past only the day for year can apply in my opinion and I don't think this will work for the locusts as the forces of good.

Suppose they are. But that doesn't mean that it's not cleansing the sanctuary. And while there's no such "ready or not, you lose" type of point of probation closing, if probation closes at different times for different people, will there not be a point in time when probation is finally closed for all men?

The 7 angels with the trumpets stand before God.
One with a golden censer fills it with fire and throws it down.
The 7 angels prepare to sound.

Sounds like to me it is in sequence.
And who in the sanctuary service has a golden censer and what is it used for?

They are not the forces of good. They are ALIGNED with the forces of good. For this reason, it is written, "They were commanded ... to harm ... ONLY those men who do NOT have the seal of God on their foreheads." (Rev. 9:4)

Later in the sixth trumpet, no such distinction is made.

In other words, the star fallen from heaven (Rev. 8:10-11) takes over the church in the fifth and sixth trumpets, first wreaking havoc in the world of the ungodly through the locusts and then turning them against their very own. It is the Church run amok, fallen away so far that "They will put you out of 'the synagogues'; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service." (John 16:2)

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Yes brother James, it's all explained in detail and yes Scripture does point out that those name mean Jesus.No joke. The fact that you believe as you do from Gibbons, ARSH authors and other historians is up to you. If I recall right, one of those writers was Uriah Smith, who had that book "Daniel and the Revelation" which has some BIG holes in it.

I've spelled it out already why we see this as we do, can't do anymore. Further, will post on the verses for brother Mark tonight, about Rev.9:10 and after. Those issues are important as well. (Please re-read my comment to kland as to why the name Destroyer fits)

But I should discuss verse 9:1, which we left out, to maybe give some foundation here. "Star", "Bottomless pit", "smoke",etc. must be understood correctly first.

THE FIFTH TRUMPET.
Revelation 9:1-12.

Rev. 9:1-4. "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And He opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

And there came out of the smoke locusts upon
the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

Taking in order the parts (the "star," the "key," the "pit," the "smoke," the darkness, and the locusts) of this fifth trumpet symbolism, we come first to The Star.

Just as did the star of the third trumpet, so this fifth-trumpet star descended from heaven to earth. And as the third-trumpet "star" has been conclusively identified as representing the advent of the Bible then this latter one, since it is similar to the former must stand for something the equivalent of It.

The Bible and Christ being complementary affinities, each the Word of God (John 1:1-14), then the fact that the descent of the first "star" is symbolical of the advent of the Bible, compels the conclusion that the descent of the second star is symbolical of the first advent of Christ.

Moreover, the star is personified as "Him" (masculine in gender), thus being limited to a male person. And finally Christ Himself gives testimony that He is "the bright and morning star." Rev. 22:16. To Him, be it remembered, was given

"The Key of the Bottomless Pit."

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years." Rev. 20:1, 2.

As Christ is the one who secures Satan's captivity, thereby ushering in the millennium, He alone can be fittingly symbolized by the "angel...having the key of the bottomless pit," and by the "star" to whom the "key" was given.

And as the "giving" of a thing to any certain one must precede the having" of it by that one, the verbs "given" (Rev. 9:1) and "having" (Rev. 20:1; 1:18) point, of course, to two different times.

Obviously, therefore, Christ received the "key" at the sounding of the fifth trumpet -- sometime before the millennium. Hence at the commencement of the millennium He already has it.

Christ's mission being to bring deliverance from the prison house of sin and of death (the bottomless pit), and to do so through the preaching of the gospel, the key, therefore, must be figurative of the gospel, the only power that is able to set free those who are imprisoned in

The "Bottomless Pit."

Since the "bottomless pit" of Revelation 20:3 is symbolical of the earth as a prison house during the millennium, then the "bottomless pit" of Revelation 9:1, being identical, must likewise be symbolical of the earth as a prison house at another time.

This implicitly Biblical interpretation of the "star," the "key," and the "bottomless pit," reveals that the earth, at Christ's first advent, had become a prison house (a pit) for God's people and that Christ came to open it in order to save them.

The very fact that God's people are vested with the power to keep open the bottomless pit, then should they be defeated, the pit would be shut and would become a prison house from which there would be no escape unless it be reopened.

And so Satan in the latter days of the Jews, as sacred history records, attacked them, took them captive, and thus shut the pit. And knowing that when the Savior should come, He would open it, the dragon therefore stood ready to devour the "child as soon as it was born." Rev. 12:4.

But losing sight of the infant Christ, he incited Herod to slay "all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under" (Matt. 2:16), in the hope of making rid of the Savior.

Under the protection of Providence, however, Christ was kept from the bloody hand of Herod. Then subsequently with the gospel key, He opened the "pit" and freed His people. This, He Himself avowed:

"The Spirit of the Lord," He declared, is upon Me, because He hath anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He
hath sent Me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord." Luke 4:18, 19. And as a result of opening the pit, there came the Smoke, the Darkness, and the Locusts.(Which has already been explained earlier)

One brief comment Godslove while you prepare an answer to the questions I raised earlier. I have a friend, Heidi Heikes, who's written a book on the fifth and sixth trumpets and he denies the Litch interpretation endorsed in the GC by Ellen White. That continues to trouble me more for the implications for her inspiration rather than the actual interpretation. If you re-apply the time periods noted in the GC, to me you have the same difficulty - what do you do with her inspiration? Maybe you won't do that. I'll wait to hear from you.

Godslove, sorry if what I posted seemed gruff.

think about this ok? Why does the bible spend so much time prophecying about the historical nation of Islam?

From the Great Controversy...

"In the year 1840 another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest. Two years before, Josiah Litch, one of the leading ministers preaching the second advent, published an exposition of Revelation 9, predicting the fall of the Ottoman Empire. According to his calculations, this power was to be overthrown “in A.D. 1840, sometime in the month of August;” and only a few days previous to its accomplishment he wrote: “Allowing the first period, 150 years, to have been exactly fulfilled before Deacozes ascended the throne by permission of the Turks, and that the 391 years, fifteen days, commenced at the close of the first period, it will end on the 11th of August, 1840, when the Ottoman power in Constantinople may be expected to be broken. And this, I believe, will be found to be the case.”—Josiah Litch, in Signs of the Times, and Expositor of Prophecy,
At the very time specified, Turkey, through her ambassadors, accepted the protection of the allied powers of Europe, and thus placed herself under the control of Christian nations. The event exactly fulfilled the prediction. (See Appendix.) When it became known, multitudes were convinced of the correctness of the principles of prophetic interpretation adopted by Miller and his associates, and a wonderful impetus was given to the advent movement. Men of learning and position united with Miller, both in preaching and in publishing his views, and from 1840 to 1844 the work rapidly extended. {GC 335.1}

So if the pioneers who received the Spirit of Prophecy believed that the 5 months prophecy of Rev 9 was fulfilled in the fall of the Ottoman empire then why are we trying to rediscover what it meant?

Those who will receive the latter rain follow the exact same path that God led the pioneers. (Though some of the elders took the involvement of the Muslims too far and said they are the king of the North, which is totally wrong.)

Here is another thought. Let your mind be persuaded that these fulfillments were made by the descendants of Ishmael, and they claim that the father of the nation of Islam is Abraham, try to see the implications in light of 9/11!

Brother Mark, I would seriously question her motivation because anyone who would write a book about how the Great Controversy is not accurate in any way is not following the path...period.

Godsloveandlaw, I don't know who the "We" is that you are referring to but anyone who would call Jesus the "destroyer" and say that Apolion is the Christ is severely mistaken.

So by saying "we" are you saying that you are supported in this by others?

Sorry bro James, we seem to have different perspectives on this issue. What I've written ,at least to me (hopefully others), makes all the puzzles come together.

Rev. 9:10, first clause. "And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails."

We have seen that the "locusts" are symbolical of the soldiers of the cross; we know that the tail of an animal is the hinder member of its body; in other words its rearguard. So we have no choice but to conclude that the tails of the locusts symbolize the church's rearguard -- its followers. Furthermore, the tail's being a connected part of the body shows that both the ministry and the laity of the early Christian church were bound together inseparably in Christ (Rom. 12:5), one contributing to another. So reads the record: "for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid
them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." Acts 4:34, 35.

Rev. 9:10, second clause. "And there were stings in their tails."

Their tails representing their converts, and at the same time having stings in them, then, obviously, in the rapid accession of disciples to the religion of Christ, there was a sting, a torment, to the wicked. "What shall we," they cried in consequent despair, "do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.

But that it spread no further among the people, let us straightly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name. And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus," for "the world is gone after Him." Acts 4:16- 18; John 12:19.

Rev. 9:5, 6. "And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months:...and in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it, and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

Seeing that the "locusts" are symbolical of the followers of Christ after the crucifixion, and that they were commanded not to resist their enemies the "five months," therefore, began at that time.

And seeing, furthermore, that death does not as yet flee any men, but still reigns over all, the "five months" are in consequence figurative time, and extend from the crucifixion to a time when "death shall flee" from some men; that is, to the time when some will be made invulnerable to death.

Rev. 9:10, third clause. "And their power was to hurt men five months."

The fact, too, that the trumpets are figurative, is another evidence that these five months are figurative time. But why should this period in which the locusts, the Christians, have power to torment men be limited to "five months"?

It will be noted that the 144,000 are called the "first-fruits," denoting that they are sealed at the beginning of "the harvest" -- the commencement of the time to separate "the tares" from "the wheat." To the parable of the "harvest," then, we must go for the full explanation of the "five months" period.

The Harvest, the time from the baptism of Christ to the close of probation is shown to be illustrated by twelve figurative months -- six from Christ's baptism to His crucifixion, five from the crucifixion to the in gathering of the first fruits (the 144,000 -- Rev. 14:4), leaving one month for the in gathering of the second fruits (the great multitude -- Rev. 7:9).

During the five figurative months, the "locusts" were commanded to torment those who had not the seal of God, but not to kill them. This command implies that after the expiration of this period, the killing restriction will cease, and that from then on the wicked will be killed rather than tormented only. At that time "the four angels" of Revelation 9:15 will have prepared themselves "for to slay the third part of men."

These several linked facts present a solid chain of evidence that in the Christian era, during the five figurative months, God has deferred His vengeance to grace. And hence it follows inescapably that such Christians as executed the death penalty upon those who disagreed with them, were working against Christ rather than for Him.

For, as Christians (locusts), they were commanded not to kill, but to bless even those who "despitefully" used them. Indeed to him who would smite them on the "one cheek," they were to turn "the other" cheek. And if he should take away their "cloak," they were to let him have their "coat" also. Luke 6:28, 29.

After the expiration of the five figurative months of restriction during which they were not to kill some will be made invulnerable to death for the finishing of the gospel work, and will, if necessary to the discharging of their responsibility, be

Glad to Die, But Cannot.

Rev. 9:6. "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

The experience of Christ's first disciples will explain why that, after the expiration of the "five months," men will desire to die, but cannot. Despite great persecution against the faithful of the primitive Christian church, their vision of the world's great need urged them on to preach the gospel of Christ at the cost of their lives.

And notwithstanding cruelest death awaiting them, they in faith and courage in God held the light of the gospel before the people as constantly as the sun holds its rays over the earth.

"I came into Asia," testifies the death-bound apostle, "after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:...

"And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God....

"And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem. Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus." Acts 20:18, 19, 25-27; 21:12, 13.

By preaching in the name of Christ, the Christians in Paul's time were indeed seeking death. Esteeming it the greatest privilege and honor to die for Him, they desired to do so if others might by their death obtain eternal life.

Though God's people today shall go through a "time of trouble such as never was" (Dan. 12:1), when earthly tribunals shall cause to come to pass "that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed" (Rev. 13:15), yet the Word declares: "...at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Dan. 12:1.

O what a promise and what assurance! Who can comprehend God's mighty power, and the glory of this long awaited deliverance? Those who at all do, and who fully trust in the Lord will, for the good of His people, "go forth therefore unto Him without the camp, bearing His reproach." Heb. 13:13.

In thus pursuing a course against all earthly favor (by proclaiming the message of the "hour"), they will be going "forth as sheep in the midst of wolves" (Matt. 10:16) -- "seeking death."

And although happy to "die" for Christ's sake, or, as the Revelator puts it though they "shall desire to die," the promise is that "death shall flee from them," making it impossible for them to die. Even the sword of the wicked that is raised to kill them, shall break and
fall "as powerless as a straw" (Early Writings, p. 34), making them utterly invincible.

"In that day," saith the Lord, "whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." Luke 17:31, 33. In short, only those who "desire to die" for Christ's sake shall obtain eternal life.

"One woe [fifth trumpet] is past; and, behold there come two woes more hereafter" (Rev. 9:12) the next being in

THE SIXTH TRUMPET.
Revelation 9:13 to 11:14.

Rev. 9:13,14. "And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates."

In coming from the "golden altar," the command, "Loose the four angels," shows that the sixth trumpet sounded sometime before the vail to the Most Holy apartment of the heavenly sanctuary was lifted. Otherwise the voice would have come from the throne -- the Most Holy place.

But as has been shown, we are still in the period of the fifth trumpet, a fact which evokes the question: How, then, could the sixth trumpet have sounded before the events of the fifth had expired?

It will be observed that though each of the trumpets begin at a definite time, yet one overlaps the other, and all seven extend to the second coming of Christ. This is seen in the coexistence of the truths of all seven.

The flood (first trumpet), the Exodus movement (second trumpet), the giving of the Old Testament Scriptures (third trumpet), the church's going into captivity (fourth trumpet), Christ's first advent and subsequent events (fifth trumpet), are all sounding louder today than ever before.

And as these truths constitute the gospel for today, it is evident that though the trumpets run in consecutive order, each beginning at a different time, they all continue in force to the end of the world, terminating therewith. Thus the rejection of one being tantamount to the rejection of all seven, the lesson is sharply drawn that to reject one truth is to reject the whole truth.

With the fourteenth verse of Revelation 9 begins the description of the sixth trumpet, and it ends with the fourteenth verse of Revelation 11, which announces: "The second woe [sixth trumpet] is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly." Accordingly, each prophetic event recorded between Revelation 9:14 and 11:14 must find its fulfillment in the period of the sixth trumpet -- between the first and the second woes.

In the light of this fact, we see that the time in which the "two witnesses" of Revelation 11:3 were to "prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth," must occur during the sounding of the sixth trumpet.

And being in the future tense, the phrase, "shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Rev. 11:3), shows that at the time the trumpet began sounding, this period of 1260 days was yet future.

The voice which came from the golden altar said "to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates." In order to identify "the four angels," we must first understand the literal meaning of the river Euphrates.

The capital city of ancient Babylon was built on either side of the Euphrates, thus dividing the city in two parts. The river was also the source of water supplying a fortifying mote about the city.

So because the ancient Babylonians were the first to build on the banks of the Euphrates, and because the original application must attach to the original settlers there, the "great river Euphrates" emerges as a type of "the waters...where the whore sitteth" (Rev. 17:15) -- modern Babylon.

And this important truth is amplified by the fact that the ancient city, Babylon, does not now exist, whereas prophecy calls for a Babylon today.

Now in order for there to be a modern Babylon, there must necessarily be a repetition today of the conditions and events essentially characterizing ancient Babylon in its connection with God's people. Consequently, their captivity in Babylon, the type (Jer. 29:10), must find its parallel in Babylon, the antitype.

Very obviously, therefore, the angel's being "bound in the great river Euphrates" must be figurative of the Christian church during the period of her captivity in antitypical Babylon -- "that great city" rising after John' s time .

Godsloveandlaw; Who is the "we" you keep talking about?

There is a lot of information to delve into in your last address but first I need to know who "we" is.

P.S. I can't believe someone who seems like such a supported of the Spirit of Prophecy would make such a break from the path of the pioneers.

The prophecy was enlightened from God to a man who was inspired to prophesy the end of the Ottoman empire and exactly on the day that was prophecied the exact event foretold by the man who received the information was fulfilled.

Do you think it was just a coincidence that Josia Litch predicted the exact day and event in the fulfillment of Revelation 9?

Elder Litch was following the same Spirit that illuminated the 1844 message from William Miller and we as Adventists KNOW He was led by God, so what makes you think that you are more enlightened to be able to contradict one of the most prevelant Pioneers of The Advent Movement, who was led by God and rewarded by a huge influx of believers in the 1844 message?

Not to mention that you are directly contradicting what the servant of the Lord (Ellen White) said about Josiah Litch's discovery...

"At the very time specified, Turkey, through her ambassadors, accepted the protection of the allied powers of Europe, and thus placed herself under the control of Christian nationsThe event exactly fulfilled the prediction. When it became known, multitudes were convinced of the correctness of the principles of prophetic interpretation adopted by Miller and his associates, and a wonderful impetus was given to the advent movement. Men of learning and position united with Miller, both in preaching and in publishing his views, and from 1840 to 1844 the work rapidly extended. {GC 335.1}

Mrs White said directly in the Desire of Ages that this was a "fulfillment of prophecy", but you know better than she did?

I'm sad right now. The most promissing are falling short.

It's a generic term "we". If one says "I" too much there is a tendency to let "self" rear it's ugly head.

"We" is just a generic term. When "I" is used too much there is tendency for "Self" to rear it's head too often

But when talking about our faith there is nothing wrong about speaking in the singular, because we are speaking as a witness to our personal faith.

If you say "we" you sound like you are speaking for others also, which is completely irregular if speaking only for yourself. I have to teach these subtle English nuences to my Indonesian wife all the time.

The only way that the term "We" works,is if you are possessed by a demon. God doesn't require us to say "we" unless we are possessed. Example "we are legion".

Does God lead anyone to great disappointment? 1 Tim. 4:1-2

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He not only lead us to it, He lead us through it, and it was foretold almost 2000 years earlier...

Revelation 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book (the 2300 year sealed time prophecy in Daniel). And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

Was the death of Jesus a disappointment to the disciples? Very much so Until the truth of what happened was revealed. Our perceptions limit our understandings. The greatest event in the history of mankind had just taken place and those closest to Jesus were giving up on Him...strike the shephard and the sheep will scatter.

"The subject of the sanctuary was the key which unlocked the mystery of the disappointment of 1844. It opened to view a complete system of truth, connected and harmonious, showing that God’s hand had directed the great advent movement and revealing present duty as it brought to light the position and work of His people. As the disciples of Jesus after the terrible night of their anguish and disappointment were “glad when they saw the Lord,” so did those now rejoice who had looked in faith for His second coming. They had expected Him to appear in glory to give reward to His servants. As their hopes were disappointed, they had lost sight of Jesus, and with Mary at the sepulcher they cried: “They have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid Him.” Now in the holy of holies they again beheld Him, their compassionate High Priest, soon to appear as their king and deliverer. Light from the sanctuary illumined the past, the present, and the future. They knew that God had led them by His unerring providence. Though, like the first disciples, they themselves had failed to understand the message which they bore, yet it had been in every respect correct. In proclaiming it they had fulfilled the purpose of God, and their labor had not been in vain in the Lord. Begotten “again unto a lively hope,” they rejoiced “with joy unspeakable and full of glory.” {CIHS 101.1}
Both the prophecy of Daniel 8:14, “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed,” and the first angel’s message, “Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come,” pointed to Christ’s ministration in the most holy place, to the investigative judgment, and not to the coming of Christ for the redemption of His people and the destruction of the wicked. The mistake had not been in the reckoning of the prophetic periods, but in the event to take place at the end of the 2300 days. Through this error the believers had suffered disappointment, yet all that was foretold by the prophecy, and all that they had any Scripture warrant to expect, had been accomplished. At the very time when they were lamenting the failure of their hopes, the event had taken place which was foretold by the message, and which must be fulfilled before the Lord could appear to give reward to His servants. {CIHS 101.2}
Christ had come, not to the earth, as they expected, but, as foreshadowed in the type, to the most holy place of the temple of God in heaven. He is represented by the prophet Daniel as coming at this time to the Ancient of Days: “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came”—not to the earth, but—“to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him.” Daniel 7:13. {CIHS 102.1}
This coming is foretold also by the prophet Malachi: “The Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, He shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 3:1. The coming of the Lord to His temple was sudden, unexpected, to His people. They were not looking for Him there. They expected Him to come to earth, “in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel.” 2 Thessalonians 1:8. {CIHS 102.2}
But the people were not yet ready to meet their Lord. There was still a work of preparation to be accomplished for them. Light was to be given, directing their minds to the temple of God in heaven; and as they should by faith follow their High Priest in His ministration there, new duties would be revealed. Another message of warning and instruction was to be given to the church." {CIHS 102.3}

Well, David Gates makes a similar application to Joel 2, and he could be right. Likely you aren't the only one with this view on Revelation 9.

I have issues though as I mentioned, with denying the historic, day for year principle here. The day for year method was the key that unlocked the great time periods of prophecy. You are not rejecting it wholesale. You still use it for the 1260 days right but you reject it in the fifth trumpet. We'll have to disagree here.

Regarding men seeking death, those who seek it are those who do not have the seal. You suggest these are the new converts because it's the 144000 who are sealed. But contextually that is straining the meaning too far in my view. The idea being conveyed is that the unsealed are being tormented for their evil works, likely by complying with and promoting the mark of the beast.

Thank you very much for sharing that. It stimulated my thinking. Some of what you wrote is worth further study but I think overall this view strains the intended meaning.

I would say the fall of Constantinople was not Papal Rome, although it was very much like Papal Rome. I believe the fall of Constantinople was one of the trumpets.

Can I ask help with another EGW statement?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHHuTUvF8m8

In this video, between the time of 39:00 and 40:30, Brothers Wieland and Douglass mention a statement from Ellen White about Jesus coming by 1893. They mention one reference, The General Conference Bulletin 1893 pg. 419. But, I don't have that in my software and the best I found online is this; http://egwtext.whiteestate.org/publicati...p;pagenumber=67


I am not finding anything like they mentioned.

"Thank you very much for sharing that. It stimulated my thinking. Some of what you wrote is worth further study but I think overall this view strains the intended meaning."

No problem. This issue is one of the "deeper" issues we have in Revelation that is for sure. All we can do is keep going before Him in prayer to be revealed His truths.

You see Godsloveandlaw saying Jesus is the destroyer is wrong. However, is it really all that different from you other than in degree? Is he just an exaggerated or "more advanced" you?

Here is the quote you are looking for, given in 1883 and repeated in Minneapolis in 1888.

"Had Adventists, after the great disappointment in 1844, held fast their faith, and followed on unitedly in the opening providence of God, receiving the message of the third angel and in the power of the Holy Spirit proclaiming it to the world, they would have seen the salvation of God, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts, the work would have been completed, and Christ would have come ere this to receive His people to their reward. {1SM 68.1}
But in the period of doubt and uncertainty that followed the disappointment, many of the advent believers yielded their faith. Dissensions and divisions came in. The majority opposed with voice and pen the few who, following in the providence of God, received the Sabbath reform and began to proclaim the third angel’s message (sound familliar?). Many who should have devoted their time and talents to the one purpose of sounding warning to the world, were absorbed in opposing the Sabbath truth, and in turn, the labor of its advocates was necessarily spent in answering these opponents and defending the truth. Thus the work was hindered, and the world was left in darkness. Had the whole Adventist body united upon the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, how widely different would have been our history! {1SM 68.2}
It was not the will of God that the coming of Christ should be thus delayed. God did not design that His people, Israel, should wander forty years in the wilderness. He promised to lead them directly to the land of Canaan, and establish them there a holy, healthy, happy people. But those to whom it was first preached, went not in “because of unbelief” (Hebrews 3:19). Their hearts were filled with murmuring, rebellion, and hatred, and He could not fulfill His covenant with them. {1SM 68.3}
For forty years did unbelief, murmuring, and rebellion shut out ancient Israel from the land of Canaan. The same sins have delayed the entrance of modern Israel into the heavenly Canaan. In neither case were the promises of God at fault. It is the unbelief, the worldliness, unconsecration, and strife among the Lord’s professed people that have kept us in this world of sin and sorrow so many years." {1SM 69.1}

So God gives the story of the Hebrews and their judgment as an example of what the church is doing today and our judgment.

After reading his take on Aployon and Abaddon I was beginning to think Godsloveandlaw is you under a different name, trying to make a point through sarcasm. Especially after this last comment.

No, what he is saying is not the same as what I was inspired to comment.

The "Abaddon" prophecy is specific, it is a time prophecy about "A" destroyer. Jesus is called satan's destroyer because sin was caused by Satan. The cleansing fires of hell come in consequence to men destroying themselves but they are commissioned by and executed by the creator.

"Christ had entered the world as Satan’s destroyer and the Redeemer of the captives bound by his power. He would leave an example in His own victorious life for man to follow, and thus overcome the temptations of Satan." {Con 36.1}

Have you ever heard the saying from your earthly father "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out". There is a logic there that is applicable to our heavenly Father only.

"The divine sentence, “Dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return,” points to the utter extinction of life." {DD 14.2}

That one quote proves how wrong you are Kland and this conversation gave me the motivation to find this quote.

"Christ had entered the world as Satan’s destroyer and the Redeemer of the captives bound by his power. He would leave an example in His own victorious life for man to follow, and thus overcome the temptations of Satan. {Con 36.1}

“By the word of Thy lips I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer.” Psalm 119:11; 17:4

Two different uses of the word destroyer.

Because Satan brought destruction into the world, he must be destroyed. So Jesus is the destroyer of the destroyer, and in this He remains perfectly righteous.

Abaddon and Apolyon are names for Satan but in the quote in quoestion it specifically relates to those who are used to destroy Rome; do you disagree with this Kland or are you only here to disagree with me?

Satan destroyed Rome, first by false doctrines, then Satan destroyed the institution. You should relate to that Kland. Even in this God preserved their lives saying they should "hurt not"... giving boundaries that He would permit.

To date all of the retribution of God has been mixed with mercy because of His restraint, but in the very end, they suffer their own wrath and the wrath of God in the pain His Son felt. Jesus suffered the wrath of God mixed with His righteous unsullied character which was both a blessing in that He did not deserve it, and a curse because of His sensitivity to sin. Every sin that Jesus had to carry hurt Him several billion times more than we could ever feel in this lifetime. Those in the second death will feel that pain without having His righteous character to shield them. They have blood squeezed from their pores just like Jesus in Gethsemane. This I was shown directly from the Father and have found ample support in the testimonies and scripture since.

"Little did the Jews realize the terrible responsibility involved in rejecting Christ. From the time when the first innocent blood was shed, when righteous Abel fell by the hand of Cain, the same history had been repeated, with increasing guilt. In every age prophets had lifted up their voices against the sins of kings, rulers, and people, speaking the words which God gave them, and obeying His will at the peril of their lives. From generation to generation there had been heaping up a terrible punishment for the rejecters of light and truth. This the enemies of Christ were now drawing down upon their own heads. The sin of the priests and rulers was greater than that of any preceding generation. By their rejection of the Saviour, they were making themselves responsible for the blood of all the righteous men slain from Abel to Christ. They were about to fill to overflowing their cup of iniquity. And soon it was to be poured upon their heads in retributive justice. Of this, Jesus warned them: {DA 618.3}
“That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.” {DA 619.1}

How important now do you think it is that we are following the true interpretation of the word of God and filled with the true Spirit of Prophecy?

Woe to the Pharisees calling themselves Seventh Day Adventist worshippers but trying to conform the church to their image in these last days.

Thanks James,

I am aware of this statement. Maybe they were referring to this statement in some way, but I didn't realize it.

But, I am really trying to find the General Conference Bulletin, 1893 pages 418 - 420 for context.

Excellent post James.

2 Samuel 1:14 And David said unto him, How wast thou not afraid to stretch forth thine hand to destroy the Lord's anointed?

15 And David called one of the young men, and said, Go near, and fall upon him. And he smote him that he died.

16 And David said unto him, Thy blood be upon thy head; for thy mouth hath testified against thee, saying, I have slain the Lord's anointed.

Praise God brother.

Good morning brother Mark. I reviewed some of your responses, and would like clarification.

"Regarding men seeking death, those who seek it are those who do not have the seal." What evidence do you base this on?

"Some of what you wrote is worth further study but I think overall this view strains the intended meaning."

Perhaps go through it further and it may become clearer. I know it took me quite a while to understand this view, based on the fact that our historical views were not even close to it.But as we know it all has to fit and in truth or it won't be God's truth. I'll post more about the Trumpets soon.

What Mark Shipowick is really saying is this, "I have issues though as I mentioned, with denying the historic, day for year principle here. The day for year method was the key that unlocked the great time periods of prophecy. You are not rejecting it wholesale. You still use it for the 1260 days right but you reject it in the fifth trumpet. We'll have to disagree here." In other words, you are contradicting Ellen White; and since he views her word as sacred, you are contradicting God.

SDA have locked themselves in the prison of the lesser light. It is to his credit however, that he can at least consider your perspective.

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The heptad of trumpets are, as Churchill said of Russia, "a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." It is much easier to discern and discuss the thread running through them then to blow your mind with the symbolism of each.

One of the first things to notice is that they come just as silence descends on heaven. In that awful, pregnant quiet, "I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake. So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound." (Rev. 8:2-6)

In other words, ALL OF THE SEVENTH SEAL includes the seven trumpets. The seventh seal comes to an end in the seventh trumpet. And it all happens in the presence of God, the Lamb and the angels in the heavens, as revealed in the previous seal. In short, the trumpets SEEM to be the last plagues in different symbols.

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Mr. Peterson,

You must have a deep seeded hatred towards us like the demon possessed woman following Paul and Silas taunting us like this. If you do not believe in the Adventist faith then what would possess you to come here to make any statements what so ever? That goes for all of you Ellen White SDA haters here.

You do know that the first amendment doesn't condone harrassment don't you? If you are here to harrass us, wouldn't that make you a criminal? Why don't you be a good Christian and let us have our faith here please?

Weren't those the very words Satan asked the Son of God through the mouth of the Scribes and Pharisees, saying, "Who invited you here? Why don't you leave us alone? We don't want you among us. Are we not right in saying you are a Samaritan and have a demon?"

But don't you know that the gospel of the Kingodm of God is to be preached in the house of the Devil? How is it you present yourself as a teacher of the Law and don't know these things? The SDA denomination is not a cult, is it?

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Excuse me, Mr. Peterson,

My problem with what you said is that you spoke on behalf of some one else. In this case, Mark Shipowick.

I would ask you to let Mark speak for himself, and you speak for yourself only.

God Bless.

Would appreciate it if you'd let brother Mark answer, thanks.

Is Alchemy = jamesofthunder? Because I was responding to jamesofthunder. Perhaps I should ask you to let him speak for himself, and YOU speak for yourself.

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I'm not preventing him from answering. I should think that in his own time he will. I merely quoted him verbatim for you to see that he considers your deviation from the "year-for-a-day" principle to be ill-advised.

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Godslove, regarding the five months of the fifth trumpet you stated:
To switch from the year-day principle that established the time periods we need a scriptural basis. It was that principle that glued the prophetic puzzle together for the Millerites. (James, this was long before Ellen White had her first vision. Miller and associates were confirmed in their understanding on the issue by the witness of the scriptures and the Spirit.) The historic interpretation of the trumpets are sound that are set out by Miller and other pioneers. Where we have latitude is in their reapplication to the future.

Regarding the unsealed seeking death, the text says:

You could argue that it's the sealed who are seeking death but I think that's contextually unsound. The flow of meaning is that the men who are stung and in great pain, whether literal or symbolic, seek death in order to be released from their agony. It's a sobering, gruesome picture.

One of the many pieces of evidence that the trumpets apply to the future is this text regarding the protection of the sealed from the stings. When are they saints sealed? Most of the inspired sources, for example, Revelation 7, point to the present and a small part of the future.

Sigh! Were the Ephesians living in the future? Eph. 4:30.

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Ok , thanks for the clarification. Will respond as time permits.

So now you are making references as if we are possessed and you are Christ?

Jesus never went where He wasn't needed by men, Satan does. You are not wanted here because you are only here to try to confuse the brethren like Satan would.

What denomination are you Mr Peterson? Are you a hateful Catholic looking for revenge? What would possess you to come here?

We can read what he says, we don't need you to repeat it. Thank you.

"The historic interpretation of the trumpets are sound that are set out by Miller and other pioneers."

Not necessarily. Allow me to build an historical foundation.

Why the confusion?

The "trumpets" issue has been set forth by human wisdom for many centuries. Uninspired minds have privately interpreted the issue, irrespective of "..no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." (2 Peter 1:20)

Uriah Smith

His book, originally entitled "THOUGHTS on Daniel and the Revelation, and then later changed to , "Daniel and the Revelation", explains the subject of the 7 Trumpets. Notice that elder Smith is not the original author of the exposition of the trumpets. The originators were Messengers. Keith, Clark, Barnes, et al.(Daniel and the Revelation, p.506)

In that book, we read an explanation of Rev. 9:17, " As the Turks discharged their firearms on horseback, it would appear to the distant beholder, that the fire, smoke, and brimstone issued out of the horses' mouths, as illustrated by the accompanying plate (picture) (Ibid. p.510)

Thus we see that the interpretation of the seven trumpets, as found in the referenced book, was not originated by the SDA denomination. But their placing and endorsement upon it appears as a SDA doctrine. In other words, the theories of uninspired men, having the SDA stamp of approval are made to appear as genuine SDA Bible doctrines. The admonishment, "Is it true, By whom is it advocated?" (Tes. to Min.p.106)is made to appear that if it comes through a popular channel (has a stamp of approval) then it MUST be true.

An example of these man-made interpretations is that the book's interpretations of, "fire, smoke and brimstone" does not come from the "lion like mouths" but rather from a turkish gun!

The accepting of these additions and subtractions to and from the Holy Writ, a practice condemned by the Scriptures (Rev. 22:18, 19) shows that they are victims of faulty vision, which cause them to think themselves right when they are all wrong. (Testimonies, vol. 3, p.252, 253)

This practice undermines faith in the Bible, for if the Revelator was wrong in one instance, then can he not be wrong in another? If we cannot depend on the book of Revelation just as it reads, then how can we put confidence any other part of the Bible?

If John or any of the other prophets cannot be depended upon to declare what they see, then how can uninspired men be depended on what they see?

I'll post more on this historical foundation soon.

Was Jesus wanted in Jerusalem? Hardly. He himself wept over the city because of their stubborn attitude to the gospel of the Kingdom. It's not hard to understand why. The Jews were the first Seventh-day Adventist. And I suspect, from your strident rhetoric, that the chip never falls far from the old block.

Why not, like me, simply discuss the trumpets instead of blowing your own so VERY cantankerously loudly?

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Criminal harassment has it's own rewards. God is watching you.

The original title of Elder Smith's book, Thoughts on Daniel and The Revelation, avows him as undesigning and above-board in writing the book. The word, "thoughts," denoting an idea, a theory, not an absolute truth, shows that he simply commended the book to its readers for whatever its contents might be worth to them.

This he did, of course, with the implicit understanding that at the time of the "unrolling of the scroll" (Testimonies, Vol.6, p.17), when the writings of Daniel and of John the Revelator would be illuminated, the reader should exchange his "thoughts," if erroneous, for the truth, as the humble follower of Christ ever does.

However, going beyond this modest intention of the author, the denomination omitted from the later editions of the book the word "thoughts," the first word of the original title. And now some of the leading men try to make us believe that Sister White was shown that an angel was guiding Elder Smith's hand while he was resetting the theories of uninspired men!

Hence it is very evident that though large portions of the book impair the finality of the Scriptures, yet the book's champions will have the errors at all costs -- even at the expense of truth! Indeed, their thus exalting the fabrications of men, and stamping them as bearing the seal of Inspiration, while depreciating the precision of The Revelation, show that Satan is the one who has led them into this rationalizing.

Then, again, while on one hand these commentators profess to know more about John's vision than did John himself, on the other hand these champions of Uriah Smith's writings act as though they know more about his experience with Inspiration than did he himself, for he never claimed to be inspired, whereas they aver he was.

Any last lingering doubt that Sister White did not say and could not have said that the book Thoughts on Daniel and The Revelation is inspired, is completely dissipated by Elder Arthur L. White in the following letter:

"Among our older workers there are a number who have thought that Mrs. White had written words to the effect that she had seen in vision an angel standing by the side of Elder Uriah Smith helping him as he wrote the book above referred to. However, a careful search of her manuscript files has failed to disclose such a statement among her writings, and we believe that there is no such statement in print.... Elder A.C. Bordeau, some years ago made the following statement:

" 'Many years ago, when the late Elder Uriah Smith was writing "Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation," while Elder James White and Ellen G. White were at my house in Enosburg, Vt., they received by mail a roll of printed proof-sheets on "Thoughts on Revelation" that Brother Smith had sent to them. Brother White read portions of these to the company, and expressed much pleasure and satisfaction because they were so concisely and clearly written. Then Sister White stated what she had been shown, as follows: --

" ' "The Lord is inspiring Brother Smith -- leading his mind by His Spirit, and an angel is guiding his hand in writing these 'Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation.' "

" 'I was present when these words were spoken.

" '(Signed) A.C. Bordeau.' "

"In estimating the accuracy of the words attributed to Mrs. White by Elder Bordeau," continues Elder Arthur White, in regard to Elder Bordeau's statement, "one must bear in mind that a number of years had elapsed between the incident related and its recital. We cannot consistently believe that she intended to convey the idea that Elder Smith was inspired to such a degree that his writings were inerrant."

That not only, though, was Elder Smith uninspired, but also that his teachings are in direct opposition to what Sister White was shown in vision, is witnessed by the following statement from an early S.D.A. publication:

"I saw," says Sister White, "all that 'would not receive the mark of the Beast, and of his Image, in their foreheads or in their hands,' could not buy or sell [Rev. 13:15-17]. I saw that the number (666) of the Image Beast [the two-horned beast of verse 11] was made up; and that it was the beast [the ten-horned beast of verse 1] that changed the Sabbath, and the Image Beast [the two-horned beast] had followed on after, and kept the Pope's and not God's Sabbath." -- A Word to the Little Flock, p. 19.

Contradicting this heaven-given view Thoughts on Daniel and The Revelation applies the number "666" to the pope.

From this we see that Elder Smith did not share in the same Inspiration which guided Sister White. Though as her follower he was influenced by her yet his book shows that he was also influenced by the writings of uninspired authors. Containing doctrines from her writings as well as from theirs, the book, consequently, is an admixture of truth and error.

But the most inexcusable part of the whole thing is that the leading brethren have entirely disregarded the inspired vision concerning the number 666 (Rev. 13:18), and in its place have almost unanimously accepted these traditions and theories of men. The sad result is that they have become blind to the light, rebellious against the Spirit of Christ, and consequently untrustworthy servants, unfit and disqualified as leaders of His people.

And yet, withal, they go on the while complacently assuring themselves that they are the "men of experience," who alone are capable of investigation and deciding whether or not the messages that come to the people are from God! An arrogation of authority which no one has a right to make unto himself, it is the despotic spawn of egotism and Glaring Inconsistency.

Will post on the Trumpets next week.

Are you casting contempt?

Do you think He will eventually set him on fire?

That's a strange thing to say. The book of Daniel was understood well among the leaders of the Apostolic Church. It says so in Mat. 23:15 ("When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)") and in 2 Thes. 2:3 ("Let no man deceive you by any means:for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition").

Why, in heaven's name, do SDA fill themselves up with lies; instead of reading the Bible for themselves?

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So you support the work of Mr Peterson APL? Someone who is not a Seventh Day Adventist spending all his time trying to disuade people from our faith, you see no harm in this?

If you don't think God is watching us then you are very messed up.

This is the perfect exemple of how you twist things to suit your own interpretation.

God is watching you too. He has mercy, but He is also a jeaolous God. He hates nothing more than men like you trying to do harm to the church. So you just keep on sealing your fate...

"Nothing else in this world is so dear to God as His church. Nothing is guarded by Him with such jealous care. Nothing so offends God as an act that injures the influence of those who are doing His service. He will call to account all who aid Satan in his work of criticizing and discouraging.449 {CCh 248.5}

I say this with all impunity in the name of Jesus, APL and Mr Peterson, you have offended the mighty Jehovah. You should be very affraid right now.

Godslove, the reason Miller's and his associates' interpretations are basically sound (and Smith followed their lead fairly closely on the trumpets) is they stuck to the rules of prophetic interpretation and interpreted the text as literally as possible. For example gunfire from riders on horseback does look something like fire coming from the horses mouths and is the closest literal approximation to the vision for that time. Applying it today though, we have modern weapons that match the description well – armed military UAV's or drones that can fly in precise formation yet be controlled remotely, armed with weapons, including nuclear weapons, that can deploy forward (from their heads) or backwards (from their tails). Scorpion stings and exposure to high levels of nuclear radiation produces some of the same symptoms. Over-exposure to radiation results in a lingering death. The horse-like appearance of the "locusts", crowns, men's faces and women's hair doesn't fit well with most current drones designs but we don't know what the next generation will be like. Israel, for example has a VTOL craft that is rectangular with no visible wings.

Another possibility is that the locusts are genetically modified (GMO) locusts. That would be very literal.

If the Lord used the original interpretation to confirm the credibility of the day for year principle, we should not be quick to dismiss the other parts of the Millerite interpretation – for example the meaning of the smoke of Islamic doctrine being the force behind it's followers blind and barbaric militancy.

That said, there is also a more literal interpretation for the smoke – that the smoke is smoke. Volcanoes have block out the sun and moon in the past. If an earth threatening eruption occurs, when the nations become desperate for survival, conflict of every kind is likely as food supplies suddenly evaporate due to global crop failures, spawning drone warfare on an unprecedented scale.

I thank God always that I know how to spell properly, and that I have the Testimony of Jesus Christ (the last book of the Holy Bible ONLY) and that I keep His commandments. Therefore I know that God is watching over me. He has mercy, but He is also a jealous God. He hates nothing more than men like a certain screaming baby trying to do harm to me. So it can just keep on sealing it's fate ...

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James, as many now know, you being a "Non-SDA", it really is useless for us to correspond with you. We speak different languages spiritually speaking. I further suggest you go to a non- SDA site , this way people will know more of where you are coming from. I for one will no longer address your comments.

It strikes me as odd that SDA have become Roman Catholics except in name, when they so vehemently condemn them for having THEIR magisterium above the Bible, a practice no different from what has now possessed SDA. What does it matter whether I am SDA or not? Is the truth not the truth, according to the Holy Scriptures, anymore? Is the Bible not allowed to express itself anymore in the denomination? Do men go around in the dark saying, "Shhh, be silent. We have a lesser light and it will now speak graciously to us"?

This is no different from the age of Christ when the Scribes and Pharisees were condemning Jesus of Nazareth because "he was not one of them." I tell you, truly, history must needs be repeated. Consider the word of The Lord (John 7):

"14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.
15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory:but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
20 The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil:who goeth about to kill thee?"

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Amen Godslove.

Mr Peterson, you must be a very sad and lonely erson to spend all your time trying to alter any church but your own.

Is it the oath they made you take that compels you to come here day after day? Since you openly admit that you are here to convert people to your own understanding I am quite certain you are here to harass us.

What a hateful person you really are, and you say you are here in the name of Lord are you? I misspell one word in that sentence and you openly rebuke me for it while using the name of the Lord?

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We should return to the discussion "Will any signs happen again; and if so, which ones?" I have a point I wish to make about the matter. May I?

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By any chance are you with the Westboro Baptist church?

Yes, it is sad.

What is sad?

Are you trying to be humorous or just obtuse? I am fully Seventh Day Adventist and God speaks to my heart all the time. I see miracles and get powerful answer to prayer in the name of Jesus continually. What he shares with me through His Spirit when talking to you is a stern warning for you. He has already told me that you are cutting yourself off from His guidance and you are here under your own power. Of this I have been 100% assured.

I was addressing your comment #161400, and agree with those sentiments. The reason I pointed out that we must not waste our time on such correspondence is that it can have a rebounding effect. "Do not answer a fool according to his folly lest you be like him."(Proverbs 26:4)

James, I guess I thought you had the same message as they did.

What is their message?

I understand your confusion with the Book of Daniel, James.

Much of Daniel was understood. Such as the four kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Pesia, Greece and Rome. These kingdoms are called out by name so this much was known.

But, the part of Daniel that has to do with the last days was not understood. Daniel admits to this at the end of Daniel 8. Even in Daniel 9 when the angel comes to help Daniel, the angel only explained the beginning of the prophecy, not the part about the last days.

I hope I was clear.

Go ahead James. Let's hear it.

Daniel was not part of the Apostolic era of the Church. His book was understood in that era. As I said, it was written to them of old, "whosoever reads, let him understand."

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Daniel was not part of the Apostolic era of the Church. His book was understood in that era. As I said, it was written to them of old, "whosoever reads, let him understand."

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Blessings James,

Not all of it "was written to them of old" as you put it. Part of the Book of Daniel was clearly sealed until the time of the end. (Daniel 12:9)

When we read the end of chapter 8 of Daniel and Daniel 12:8, we know Daniel did not understand all that he wrote about. Just a fascinating idea!

Now, as the part Daniel didn't understand unfolds before us in these last days, Christ and His truth is magnified more and more.

We find the truth of the judgment as well as the close of the judgment which is when Jesus will return the second time.

I pray we will all be ready.

Here's some comments on the trumpets. Not showing this to change your mind only food for thought.

The Trumpets themselves are shown to be in two divisions, four in the Old Testament time, and three in the New, that is, the last three are "woe" Trumpets. The first of the woe Trumpets introduces the descending of the heavenly Star to Whom the key of the bottomless pit was given.

Obviously the Star is symbolical of the Angel who at the commencement of the millennium shuts Satan into the bottomless pit, for He, the Angel of Revelation 20:1, is the Angel Who has the key of the bottomless pit. He could not possibly have the key if it had been given to some other.

As Christ is the one who secures Satan's captivity, thereby ushering in the millennium, He alone can be fittingly symbolized by the "angel...having the key of the bottomless pit," and by the "star" to whom the "key" was given.

And as the "giving" of a thing to any certain one must precede the "having" of it by that one, the verbs "given" (Rev. 9:1) and "having" (Rev. 20:1; 1:18) point, of course, to two different times. Obviously, therefore, Christ received the "key" at the sounding of the fifth trumpet -- sometime before the millennium. Hence at the commencement of the millennium He already has it.

Christ's mission being to bring deliverance from the prison house of sin and of death (the bottomless pit), and to do so through the preaching of the gospel, the key, therefore, must be figurative of the gospel, the only power that is able to set free those who are imprisoned in "the bottomless pit".

Since the "bottomless pit" of Revelation 20:3 is symbolical of the earth as a prison house during the millennium, then the "bottomless pit" of Revelation 9:1, being identical, must likewise be symbolical of the earth as a prison house at another time.

This implicitly Biblical interpretation of the "star," the "key," and the "bottomless pit," reveals that the earth, at Christ's first advent, had become a prison house (a pit) for God's people and that Christ came to open it in order to save them.

The time of the end was the Apostolic era. The Angel was referring to the time of the end OF THE KINGDOM OF JUDAH (i.e. the period just prior to the fall of Jerusalem). Read Heb. 1:1-2, "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son."

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You are imposing your own private interpretation on the scriptures in order to suite SDA doctrine. As I said in the previous post:



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Da 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

About what?

Da 10:1 ¶ In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

Thank you GLL.

In the same spirit of freedom and to stimulate thought - ->

Miller's interpretation of the smoke rising from the abyss in the fifth trumpet as being symbolic of religious falsehood is sound (it can't be literal smoke because it issues from hell) but the greatest satanic falsehood at the end of time that obscures the light of truth for many inhabitants of Earth is the sorcery of spiritualism. How many are deceived by this “smoke screen”? Further on in the trumpet's description we have a clue: The locusts that emerge from the smoke are commanded to hurt only those who are not sealed. And who are the unsealed? They would be every living person at that time except the sealed, and the sealed are a small remnant. The smoke therefore is the doctrines of all false religions, but especially of Babylon.

When the barriers against the occult are broken down by near universal fascination with Spiritualism, Satan is released from his abyss and goes forth under the guise of a false prophet. Spiritualism and the occult are the twin abysmal forces that take the world captive, causing it to erect an image to the beast. It is this miracle working power from beneath that denies the authority of God, His Son and His law. It thinks to trample on Christ in the person of His saints and His word. But will the world be left without a fair warning before taking these steps?

In Revelation 8:13 God in mercy sends the following warning message:

As the nations prepare to erect an image to the beast they are cautioned in the strongest possible terms of the consequences of following through with their planned course of action. Like the messages of the three angels of Revelation 14, this message is also given with a loud voice and is also global in it's reach. It becomes a present truth message during the interlude between the fourth and fifth trumpets. It complements the first angel's message and anticipates the second, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, pleading with Christendom not to take this plunge into the abyss by making the second angel's message of Revelation 14 a reality. The message is a warning and a plea not to force a false system of worship upon all nations bringing upon the world the judgment of of God. Tragically as with the ancient Pharaoh, this plea goes unheeded.

Not very many years ago Adventists in their corporate logo portrayed the messages of the three angel's of Revelation 14 as three angels sounding trumpets. Prior to 1997 when the logo was changed, the logo inadvertently linked the trumpet-woes of Revelation 8:13 to the three angels messages of Revelation 14. Was that a major mistake or a divine providence? To my mind there is no doubt – it was an important providence. I grew up with the man who designed the new logo, Brian Gray, and his brother, Chris, another small providence of it's own. I didn't know Brian well because he was a couple years younger, but Chris and I were school mates in academy and college.

The message of warning in Rev. 8:13 is sounded just before the first of the three woes. It continues throughout the woes explaining to any who have ears to hear why the woes have befallen Babylon and those allied with her.

The announcement of the first angel of Revelation 14 that the judgment hour has arrived has been present truth since the 1840's. But the judgment hour message takes center stage when the first four trumpets sound in quick succession. The first four trumpets are sent in mercy to herald to the world the nearness of Christ's return. Through the trumpets, God pleads with humanity by fire (I make some comments on the fire of trumpets 1 to 4 earlier in the thread.) and sword:
But rather than repent, the nations of the world seek a human solution to a global crises. As the image of the beast is erected and given the powers of economic coercion so no one can buy or sell who resists its authority, the woe message shifts in emphasis to the second angel's message during the fifth trumpet. Finally, during the sixth trumpet when worship of the image is enforced on the pain of death the message of woe swells with the Loud Cry of the fourth angel.

By the way, the old logo I mentioned in post 161699 above is at the top of every forum page between the Canadian and US flags.

At the seventh trumpet or third woe, probation closes, the Lord reigns and rewards his prophets and saints and the the temple in heaven is opened. Ellen White has interpreted the opening of the temple in heaven in two ways: 1) as applying to the opening of the Most Holy Place in 1844, and 2) as applying to the future: Here is a statement where she applies the seventh trumpet to the future:
Notice the progression of thought. She places the reward in the future but in the last paragraph above she also applies the opening of God's temple to the present saying that those who have grown gray in the advocacy of the truth are to continue bearing their testimony in favor of the law. This is similar to her treatment of the seven last plagues: She applies the warfare of the sixth and seventh plagues, Armageddon, to her day so they span the entire period from her day to the end.

For interest sake here is a similar statement to the one above applying the opening of the temple to the third angel's message. This one can be also be applied to both the past and the future, but more to the future because the mark of the beast is still future:
Here are two more similar statements:

I will share some comments below on the future application of the seals but before moving on, let me share just one more quote from Ellen White on the express form of divine wrath that we'll witnesses in the near future:

In the bolded sentence above is Ellen White using only an analogy to Sodom or is her statement literal. Our preference is for a literal interpretation where the context allows. Will God really do this? Compare this statement to the first four trumpets that portray the fire and brimstone of volcanic activity. This statement adds information on the moral declension at the time that demon worship disguised as Christian and new age spiritualism along with less disguised occultic pagan practices become nearly universal and bring on the world the wrath of God.

What do you think? Feel free to comment and critique this and the last several of my posts.

Historically, Adventists have taught that the first six trumpets were judgments on Rome, the first four on Pagan Rome and the last two on Papal Rome and that we're living during the final, seventh trumpet. The view I've proposed above is that the trumpets are future judgments on false religion generally but especially on Babylon, the final world empire which will be a corrupt alliance of church and state.

The historic Adventist view of the seals is that the first six represent the history of the church from the time of Pentecost up to today and that we're living during in the latter part of the sixth. Below, the view I'll propose is that 1) the seals began in 1844 with the proclamation of the third angel, that 2) we're living during the first seal and 3) that the first is further unsealed when the latter rain is poured out, that 4) the seals and the thunders parallel each other and that 5) we should study them carefully but should also bear in mind that we cannot understand them fully at this point: both are successively understood as they are opened.

"The historic Adventist view of the seals is that the first six represent the history of the church from the time of Pentecost up to today and that we're living during in the latter part of the sixth. Below, the view I'll propose is that 1) the seals began in 1844 with the proclamation of the third angel, that 2) we're living during the first seal and 3) that the first is further unsealed when the latter rain is poured out, that 4) the seals and the thunders parallel each other and that 5) we should study them carefully but should also bear in mind that we cannot understand them fully at this point: both are successively understood as they are opened."

I would agree that we "should study them carefully". The understanding of the seals are quite basic when we look at the "whole" picture.

As to the book sealed with seven seals, the only book that "no man in heaven, nor in earth...was able to open...neither to look thereon," save the Lion of the tribe of Judah, it unquestionably is the book in which the deeds of mankind are chronicled, as the seals themselves disclose.

This fact Inspiration again confirms: "Thus the Jewish leaders made their choice. Their decision was registered in the book which John saw in the hand of Him that sat upon the throne, the book which no man could open. In all its vindictiveness this decision will appear before them in the day when this book is unsealed by the Lion of the tribe of Judah." -- Christ's Object Lessons, p. 294.

The seals contain the history of the world and the deeds of all mankind. The opening of the book,logically, is the Judicial investigation of the deeds of the "professed" people of God.

Yes, I completely agree. It's an awesome thought. You know, Ellen White recommends contemplating these solemn scenes.

The statement below recently caught my attention. It ties the mighty angel of Revelation 10 to the third angels message. Some of you may recall that the mighty angel is a symbol of the early Advent movement prior to the great disappointment. This statement gives is a new application saying it applies especially post 1844, not to the first and second angels' messages but to the third. It's all the more interesting because it's from Early Writings and so from the mid 1800's until today we've had this information available to us.

Was the connection she made between the mighty angel of Revelation 10 and the third angel unintended? Why would the Lord depict the third angel with a parchment or writing in his hand? Isn't this a divine invitation to compare the third angel of Revelation 14 with the mighty angel holding a small book of Revelation 10 and with the passing of the scroll from the Father to the Son in Revelation 5 and the seating of Heaven's court and opening of the books in Daniel 7 and 8.

"the view I'll propose is that 1) the seals began in 1844 with the proclamation of the third angel,.."

First things first, do you agree that your view is incorrect as previously shown?

GLL, I agree that the place where the seals preeminently apply is to that time when the judgment sits and the books are open. For the world that's future from everything I read. That is, it has to be future because the latter rain has not been poured out, the trumpets haven't sounded, the mark of the beast and the warning against receiving it is not given today with a loud cry. But for Adventists, God is measuring us now at the present time and has been measuring His beloved people on the truth of the third angel's message since 1844. We can't afford to put off the great reality of the judgment of the house of God to the future. For us that time is now and has been that way since 1844.

Every passing generation of Adventists since 1844 witnesses against us proving that corporately no generation of Adventists has been found faithful to God. What a tragedy. But thank God for His care for us and for preserving the truth through a faithful remnant down through this period that have held the torch high. Men like ML Andreason and others. Most Adventists are unaware of the debt of gratitude we owe them.

I think we have to lay a foundation of what the seals represent. I'll post more on this.

In case you forgot about this, I am reminding you about this.

Yes brother Daryl, I haven't forgot :-) Just be busy with our online ministry and things. By God's grace will get to it this coming week along with the other post (part 2 on Ezekiel thread)

"Godslove, the reason Miller's and his associates' interpretations are basically sound (and Smith followed their lead fairly closely on the trumpets) is they stuck to the rules of prophetic interpretation and interpreted the text as literally as possible."

Brother Mark, before posting on the "seals", I had some time this Sabbath afternoon and would be remiss if I didn't at least comment back on your posts prior. This report exposes the many flaws in Miller's et al interpretations of the Trumpets (Composed by David Clover). As I view it, our historical views are quite "unsound" and should be viewed as that. Inspiration can't be a "hit and miss" proposition as we very well know.

"William Miller was remarkably consistent in his view. Not only did he hold that the 7 churches, the 7 seals and the 7 trumpets were all representations of historical events that had occurred between 31 AD and 1844, but he also held that the 7 plagues had also occurred, and could be seen in historical events. His view can be pictured as this:

(See link)

No Adventist alive today would agree with William Miller on this view. Shortly after Jesus “failed” to appear in 1844, Adventist scholars and theologians modified the above view. After studying them in full, it was seen that the 7 last plagues were in fact yet ahead of us, and would directly proceed the 2nd coming of Jesus. Ellen White confirmed this view."


"Let’s look a little closer at the Historicist view of the Churches, Seals, and Trumpets:
here is the link for the graph:

Historical Trumpet Views


The closer you look the more complex things get! You’ll notice the string of dates at the bottom of the graph. Each of these is suggested as a possible start or stop date for the events listed. In fact, since we are in most cases dealing with subjective (rather than objective) interpretations, the SDA Bible Commentary leaves a large amount of leeway for various interpretations. Peter referred to the “sure word of prophecy.” What we have above is the “unsure” word! We are unsure about almost all the dates!

The following statement from Volume 7 of the SDA Bible Commentary, p. 753, on the close of the Pergamos period, is typical of these discussions: "Any one of various events might serve as an acceptable boundary marker for the close of this period. The deposition of the last Roman emperor in 476 marks it as one such date. The conversion, in 496, of the Frankish king Clovis, the first Germanic ruler to embrace Roman Christianity and to ally himself with the interests of the church in the conquest of other Germanic peoples, is another.

In 538 Justinians decree of 533, according the pope plenary ecclesiastical power in East and West, began to become effective.... Gregory the Great('s) (590-604)... reign as pope might be considered another such boundary.... The year of 756 marks the beginning of papal territorial rule...."[3] If one event serves just as well as the other, how can we even contend that the prophecy has a unique meaning, and that unique meaning has been fulfilled?

The 5th seal, we contend, ends in 1755, the year of the Lisbon earthquake. The 5th seal speaks of martyrs. I wish that we could conclude that there will be no more martyrs in God's cause because the period of martyrdom is past, but I'm afraid this is not the case.

In the case of the trumpets, you’ll note that the 3rd comes before the 2nd! That’s right! The Huns, lead by Attila disappeared from history’s radar screen in 453 AD when Attila died. The Vandals “vandalized” Rome for two weeks in the year 455 AD. And yet we say that the Vandals are the 2nd trumpet and the Huns are the 3rd.

The 5th and 6th trumpet are so complex that the SDA Bible commentary spends considerable time on them and then concludes: “It should be made clear, however, that commentators and theologians in general have been greatly divided over the meaning of the 5th and 6th trumpets.” (Vol.7, p.796) On the one hand we want to use the description of the locust to describe the spread of the Moslem religion starting in about 629 AD.

On the other hand, we want to use the 5 months (150 prophetic days = 150 literal years) to describe the 150 year struggle between the Ottoman Turks and the Greek Empire represented by Constantinople, which took place between 1299 and 1449. It clearly can not apply to both.

We have generally adhered to the interpretation of the 6th trumpet as originally exposited by Josiah Litch, who declared that the "hour, day, month, and year" were to be understood as 391 years, 15 days. These, he believed, started with the Battle of Bapheum on July 27, 1299, and would extend to August 11, 1840, upon which date he expected the Ottoman Empire to be overthrown.

On that very day, an emissary arrived in Alexandria with the terms of the London Convention, in which Britain, Austria, Prussia and Russia agreed to enforce an agreement between the Ottoman Turks and the upstart country of Egypt. Josiah Litch declared the prophecy to be fulfilled, and many were said to be converted. (This understanding of the 6th trumpet is recorded in The Great Controversy.)
Several years later, however, Josiah Litch retracted his statements, declaring that he was in error, and stating that we must look to some future fulfillment of this prophecy. Clearly, the Ottoman Empire was not overthrown - in fact, it continued until WW1.

There are other problems with this prophecy as well. In calculating his ending date of August 11, Josiah Litch failed to take into account the 10 day shift that took place when the Gregorian calendar was instituted in 1752. His target date should have been August 21. More telling however is the "hour, day, month, and year" spoken of in Revelation 9:15. The Bible does not speak of this as a period of time. Instead, it is pinpointed as an exact moment in time. These angels were prepared for the very moment of their release.

Given all these problems - problems with the meaning of the time period, problems with the calculation of the event, problems with the failure of the Turkish empire to expire as predicted - we should not be surprised to find that it's true meaning and fulfillment are other than what we have traditionally taught."

So we see that, far for a sound basis of interpretation, we discover restatements, adjustments, omittings. etc. Still, we try to put this dis-jointed puzzle together. Hardly what I would call inspired interpretations of the Scriptures. This is why I stand by what was posted in our Trumpet posts. GL&L

Some foundation basics of the seals.

The consecutive breaking of the seven seals and their individual contents, respectively reveal that the history of mankind is divided into seven different periods.

Now Truth reveals that with the breaking of the first seal -- with the opening of the first section of the book -- the Judgment begins. It is also self evident that at the Judgment throne of God, in Its three sessions, the Apocalyptic symbolism depicts the nations and peoples, saints and sinners, churches and prelates, Satan and his angels, -- the past, the present, and the future. Thus "all the books of the Bible
meet and end in the Revelation." -- The Acts Of The Apostles, p. 585.

The Scriptures, as every Bible student knows are designed to be present truth at certain times -- "meat in due season," especially adapted to meet the people's needs. "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." 1 Cor. 10:11. In other words, the Scriptures are similar to long term bonds, or notes, which become due at a given time. Obviously, then, the time appointed by Inspiration is the time in which one must cash in on them, so to speak.

This is especially true with The Revelation and since we have come to the very time for which It was written, we can now by experience whole-heartedly and without reservation reiterate: "Blessed is he that readeth and they that hear the words of this prophecy and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

In view of the fact that the seals contain the history of the world, the different colors of the four horses -- white, red, black, and pale -- definitely portray four different conditions, one following the other.

Then, too, the first rider's crown, and the second rider's sword, also the balances of the third, and the name of death on the fourth, -- all four in as simple a manner as Divine symbolism can depict, unveil that by the deeds of man the world has gone from good to bad, then from bad to worse and that man needs to be helped out of his brutality, needs to be re-educated to his Creator's will. The revelation of God's will, though, becomes clear only to the extent of one's willingness to relinquish his theories and self-will.

Moses, found it a thousand times easier to lead the people out of Egypt, than to lead Egypt out of them. Profiting by their stumbling blocks, dismissing every theory and all self-will at once, not taking forty years or even forty days, the Caleb's and the Joshua's of today without the semblance of doubt see that by the horses is depicted something which is created by God, but ruled (driven) by man. And what else can it be but the earth, which was man's given right to rule?

Manifestly, then, whatever else the symbolism (horses and horsemen), may depict, it for certainty reveals that man's divergence from right has lowered his character, has caused him to lose his God-given crown and with it his white horse his righteous and peaceful government; that is, what was once pure, "white," without blemish, man has caused to become impure, tyrannical and quarrelsome, domineering and murderous.

As sin multiplied, curse after curse was added, and consequently the white horse was succeeded by the red, the red by the black, and the black by the pale.

Next post we'll look at each seal.

THE SYMBOLIZATION OF THE FIRST SEAL.

"And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow, and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer." Rev. 6:1, 2.

Naturally, the first seal, the seal with which the Judgment opens, must contain the things at the very inception of the human race. Logically, then, the white horse, the first in the symbolism identifies the world's first state of being -- pure and sinless with a Divinely-crowned ruler (rider), who at first had no goal but to subdue the earth and to fill it with eternal God-like beings. The earth itself was wrapped in a garb of beauty and purity, with all the wonders on land and in sea. Nothing was wanting.

In the Garden of Eden "were trees of every variety, many of them laden with fragrant and delicious fruit. There were lovely vines... presenting a most graceful appearance, with their branches drooping under their load of tempting fruit, of the richest and most varied hues." -- Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 47.

The earth in her youth, filled with delicate flowers and covered with a carpet of living green, spanned by the blue heavens, exhibited natural beauty and elegance such as no language can describe. A living wonder without a flaw, which only the great Master Artist could bring forth.

The rider and his white horse (God's crowned king, Adam, and his peaceful government, his white horse) are, therefore, the first to be weighed on the balances, the first to come in review before the Judicial Throne. Hence, we are again reminded that this character-searching event, the Judgment, is the very thing that was to take place "hereafter" from John's time, years after the first century of the Christian era.

The rider's crown and his bow call to mind the office which man first filled the instant God said, "Let us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Gen. 1:26. And God blessed Adam and Eve, and God said unto them, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it," conquer it. Gen. 1:28.

Plain it is that at the Throne of Judgment, the white horse, the rider, and his crown, figuratively identify Adam, God's created king, and his kingdom. And if the only thing which he was commanded to conquer was the earth, by replenishing and subduing it, then what else in the field of symbolism can the "bow," the instrument to conquer with logically represent but Eve?

Some posts back, someone identified you as of the Shepherd's Rod movement. I see why now. You are actually palming off their Tract #15 as if these were your original thoughts. Here is the link to the tract:

http://www.shepherds-rod-message.org/tracts/tract_15.html

All you had to do was link to it, say you believe it to be true and discuss it with whoever wishes to engage you. It's called intellectual honesty and integrity.

///

"You are actually palming off their Tract #15 as if these were your original thoughts. Here is the link to the tract:"

http://www.shepherds-rod-message.org/tracts/tract_15.html



James Peterson, brother James is spot on with his accessment of you. You try to come on here and dissuade us as SDA that we are wrong in believing as we do. As I had already pointed that the correct course is not to waste our time with you or your points.

You character assassination is fruitless because you have no clue about the history of our church. The Srod has been a very debated and contentious subject in our SDA faith (Which obviously you don't know about) , and as such the teaching have been often prejudiced against. To avoid such pre-prejudice I have posted some of the teachings straight from the SRod.

Furthermore, only someone who thinks half way would reach the conclusion that I am trying to promote myself in these teaching, especially when I had already said I believe in them and find them deep and true. You think I'd be so foolish to post them and not know that anyone could search out the lessons I've posted to find it is from the SRod? You are really quite naive.

I could say alot more but suffice to say, the only reason I posted this is to point out your faulty assumptions. The Srod teachings are, at least at this point I believe WAY beyond your scope. Of course as bro. James pointed out your whole point coming on here is to disrupt and accuse, I agree.

Lastly I suggest you read the Wikipedia article on Davidian Seventh Day-Adventist to improve your learning base.

L&L, could you point out where you indicated you were posting the Shepherd's Rod's teaching as indicating you were pointing out faulty assumptions?
Reading it again, maybe that's not what you were actually trying to say. But where did you indicate you were posting the Shepherd's Rod's teaching?

Because, if you cannot, it appears that James Peterson was spot on! Your diffusion of the accusation would be lame, and you would have lost any remaining credibility with me.

In continuing of explanations of the seals, the second seal..

THE SYMBOLIZATION OF THE SECOND SEAL.
"And when He had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword." Rev. 6:3, 4.

Since the white horse and its crowned rider represent the first period of mankind, then the red horse and its murderous peace-destroying rider, must represent the next period, the period in which murder and war for the first time broke out.

Abel, of course, was the first victim. And as result, the whole Noatic world was destroyed by the flood, and "a third dreadful curse rested upon it in consequence of sin. "-- Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 107.

Notwithstanding this punishment and its object lesson, as soon as the earth's inhabitants multiplied after the deluge, sin likewise multiplied. And though the people could but give credit to Noah's correct prediction of the flood, they mistrusted him in his next prediction: the prediction that there would be no more "flood to destroy the earth." Gen. 9:11. Even the rainbow in the clouds, the Lord's own token of His covenant not to flood the earth a second time, failed to convince them.

What a mystery sin indeed is! First they did not believe in even the possibility of a flood, and next they did not believe in the impossibility of one! Actually, the judgment of the unbelieving is as foolish as the judgment of the country woman who, when she first saw a train idling on the rails, emphatically declared, "It will never start out!"

Then after she saw it start off, she again declared, just as emphatically as before, "It will never stop!" So while the spirit of unbelief in the Word has always benumbed the mind and subjected the body to sin and decay, even in the days when men were strong and long-lived, the same spirit is having an even greater hold on humanity today.

Rather than to set them free from fear, the Word of God spoken through Noah impelled the post-diluvians to feel that there was an unavoidable necessity to build the tower of Babel as a defense against a second flood. Disapproving of their unbelief and false alarm, however, the Lord demonstrated His displeasure by interfering with their wicked and foolish project: He destroyed their tower and confounded their language. Thus it was that the confusion at Babel (Gen. 11:8, 9) gave birth to the existing races and languages.

Finally, as the confused builders parted in groups, the neighboring ones began to quarrel one with another. And as they at length grew into nations, their quarrels grew into wars. Hence, the historical truth that wars for the first time broke out after the confusion of tongues, shows that the red horse and, in particular, its rider, depict the period in which the tower of Babel was annihilated, and in which peace gave way to wars.

Moreover, another anchor to the proof, is the phrase, "To take peace from the earth," for it obviously implies that there was peace before that time.

The consequences of Adam's sin, though, did not stop with such a life-and-property destroying act as is war. It led his descendants to greater degradation, even to idol worship, to destroying souls by means of religion...."

Source:"To the seven Churches" p.41, V.T Houteff
(I will address comments concerning actual points of this study, not side-track issues)

The prophet for Shepherd Rod teachings is Victor Houteff. Ellen White is regarded only as far as she can be used to support Houteff.


One can't in honesty claim both are true prophets.
True prophets don't contradict each other.

Houteff's endtime picture is very different from Ellen White's endtime picture.
Houteff has the faithful building a peaceful kingdom in Palestine before probation closes for the world, to which the faithful from all nations are gathered and live in sort of a utopia under a David type king, until Christ comes.

EGW has the faithful hiding in dens and caves or being in prison with a death threat ordered against them. Probation being closed for the whole world. God delivers them but probation is closed for the world, and the short space of time between that deliverance and the second coming during which the nations realize they were mislead does not yield any new conversions.

The first seal --

The seals represent the Christian era.

The fact that Christ "prevailed to open the book" means that he is the great conqueror in the controversy and Lord of history.

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he (Christ) made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

A mighty triumph as Christ rose from the grave -- Christ is the great conqueror over evil.

Rev. 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


We see that same white horse once again in Rev. 19

19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:16 And he has on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Christ sent out His apostles with the message that He had conquered the forces of evil, the door of heaven was open to all who come in Christ's name.



The spiritual conquest went forth with power. So swiftly was the gospel carried that when writing to the Colossians (some say it was in 63 AD) Paul declared that the good news had been "preached to every creature which is under heaven" (Col. 1:23)

So indeed, James P was spot on!

THE SYMBOLIZATION OF THE THIRD SEAL.

"And when He had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine." Rev. 6:5, 6.

As we have seen, the white horse represents man's govemment of earth while still pure and free. And now, since black is the opposite of white, the black horse must represent man's government in spiritual darkness and captivity -- a condition opposite to that represented by the white horse.

This is confirmed by history: Even as far back as Abraham's time, only about three hundred years after the flood, idol worship had overwhelmed the inhabitants of the world. It was then that Abraham left Haran, his father's house and country (Gen. 11:31; 12:1). His descendants, Israel, at length became slaves to Pharaoh, and afterwards to Nebuchadnezzer, King of Babylon.

The pair of balances in the rider's hand should even more definitely point out the period into which the black horse and its rider extend, and which they represent. As we have already seen the bow of the first horseman represents the means by which Adam subdued the earth (for all the human race came through him); and the sword of the second horseman, the means by which Adam's descendants took peace from the earth.

In similar manner, the balances of the third horseman must necessarily represent that which humanity next introduced. And what besides some sort of commercialism could the symbolism portray? Anyone can readily recognize that a man with a pair of balances must have something to do with buying and selling.

In Abram's time, commercial trading between nations was unknown. But during the following period, the period represented by the black horse, the idea was born. It was then that Sidon and Tyre became the chief commercial centers. And Inspiration propounds the question: "Who hath taken this counsel against Tyre, the crowning city, whose merchants are princes, whose traffickers are the honourable of the earth?" Isa. 23:8.

Tyre, the queen of the Phoenicians was but a short distance from Sidon. "In time they were to spread their trade-colonies all over the Mediterranean, and up into other lands, ever on the search for new trade areas and commercial centers. They were the bees of the ancient world carrying the pollen of culture wherever they went.

The necessities of trade and commerce drove them to perfect an alphabet, and from them the western world obtained it. In some respects they were unique in the ancient world, and this distinction was interred with them. For they were not interested in conquests, save commercial; they did not mind paying tribute to military powers, as long as those powers did not interfere with their rights of trade.

They had a Greek-like capacity for assimilating to themselves whatever Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria, Persia or any other phase of civilization offered; but their chief genius lay in invention, technical skill, business activity, and in industry. In the working of iron, gold, ivory, glass, and purple dyes they stood in the ancient world without a peer.

"... Through their cities flowed the highly profitable trade of Arabia and the East: and their manufacturers were kept busy turning out their products of metals, glass, and purple. By sea and by land they traveled everywhere -- missionaries of trade -- the master-bargainers of the Old World." -- Essential Knowledge, The Phenicians, Vol. I, pp. 69, 70.

The command, "Hurt not the oil and the wine," came from the midst of the throne, from the Ancient of Days, not from the horseman. Hence, the two commodities, oil and wine, represent not only something which only God can create but also that which He determines to preserve while wicked men would destroy it; thus the necessity for Him to command against anyone's hurting them.

And what other such spiritual commodities could the oil and wine at that particular time -- the time of the black horse -- represent but those products which the Bible then brought forth? Moreover, it is an accepted fact by nearly all Bible students, that "oil" symbolizes prophetic, truth, truth that throws light on the future, that lightens the traveler's path (Ps. 45:7; Zech. 4:12); and that wine represents that part of the truth which makes the recipient of it glad, makes him act differently than before (Isa. 61:1-3).

To summarize, it is obvious that the command, "Hurt not the oil and the wine," forbade interference with the writings of the Scriptures, again showing that the breaking of the third seal unveils the period in which the alphabet was invented and in which commercialism was originated; the period in which the Bible was being written, and in which one nation subjugated another; the period that gave birth to Empires.

Hence, while the Old Testament time is closed with the third seal, the commencement of the New is unveiled in the symbolization of the fourth seal.

Source: To the Seven Churches, V.T. Houteff

THE SYMBOLIZATION OF THE FOURTH SEAL.

"And when He had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." Rev. 6:7, 8.

Since the pale horse falls in the same period as does the non-descript beast of Daniel 7:7, 8 (see pp. 16, 17), the period subsequent to the third seal, they consequently resemble each other. Indeed, its color being faint, wanting, not having a specific or definite hue or character, the horse is in the last analysis non-descript, too.

Very evidently the rider of the pale horse is synonymous with him who spake against the Most High, with him who was to wear out the saints, "and think to change times and laws." Dan. 7:25.

He is seen to represent the climax of idolatry. The ancient Roman government is fittingly symbolized by the non-descript beast, because in truth its administration was an admixture of civil and religious laws, of Pagan and Christian doctrines. No one could actually tell whether the Roman government was Pagan or Christian, Jewish or Gentile.

The rider's name, "death," also perfectly fits the then persecuting spirit and cruelties of both the Jews and the Romans. History and prophecy alike confirm that the Roman subversive power "devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet." Dan. 7:19.

The truth concerning the "fourth part of the earth," over which power was given unto them "to kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth," is easily discovered: Dividing 6,000, the years from creation to the commencement of the millennium, into four equal parts, gives 1500 years ("the fourth part"), in the end of which time the power was to wane.

Again, it being true that the slaying of the saints began with the crucifixion of Christ, this "fourth part of the earth" therefore began at that time and ended with the "Augsburg Confession," a document compiled by Luther and presented at the Diet of Augsburg to the Emperor, Charles V, in 1530, -- exactly 1500 years after the resurrection of Christ (considering that the Christian era is 3 1/2 years pre-dated), the time the Roman power did wane.

These deductions become even more impeachable in the light of the historical fact that the Protestant clash against despotism, finally caused the persecution to cease. So it is that this part of the scripture under discussion, was fulfilled in 1530 by the weakening of the Jewish-Pagan and Christian-Pagan powers' killing with sword, hunger, death, and beasts.

(This part of the prophecy, incidentally, overthrows the erroneous idea that the earth has been in existence for longer than 6,000 years.)

At this point it is well to note that while the number of horses, four, represents the four corners of the compass, the number of seals, seven, denotes the completeness of the gospel, the sealing of the saints.

Source: To the Seven Churches, V.T. Houteff

THE SYMBOLIZATION OF THE FIFTH SEAL.

"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season until their fellow servants also and their brethren that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Rev. 6:9-11.

The certainty that the souls cried from under the altar, the place from which God's truth is dispensed, makes obvious that they were slain for their firmness in the Word of God, and that for their faithfulness they were given white robes -- they were accounted worthy of eternity. That they were the martyrs of the preceding period, the period of the fourth seal, is clear from the fact that they were already dead when the fifth seal opened.

Moreover, an altar denotes renewal of faith, reformation. That is what it meant to Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the instances they built their altars (Gen. 8:20; 12:8; 26:25; 35:14). The souls' being under the altar, indicates that they sacrificed their lives for a cause similar to the cause of the martyrs during the Protestant Reformation.

And the question, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge?" also the answer, "that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled," concretely prove that the persecution and martyrdom of the fourth seal were to overlap the fifth seal, and that the Judgment of the dead (the martyrs) was not to begin until after the persecution had ceased, but that then it would certainly begin.

source: To the Seven Churches, V.T. Houteff

THE SYMBOLIZATION OF THE SIXTH SEAL.

"And I beheld when He had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind." Rev. 6:12, 13.


It is one of the Denomination's fundamental beliefs that the prophecies of the sixth seal began to be fulfilled with the great Lisbon earthquake of November 1, 1755. Following the earthquake, May 19, 1780, the sun was darkened, and the moon appeared as blood the following night. Then came the "falling of the stars," the great meteoric shower of November 13, 1833 (The Great Controversy, pp. 304-309, 333, 334).

Looking forward to these celestial demonstrations (the signs of the times), Jesus forewarned that they were to appear "immediately after the tribulation" had ceased (Matt. 24:29). So, while peace, wars, commercialism, script, and persecution are the signs of the times and the identification of the first five seals, in like manner the earthquake, the dark day, and the meteoric shower are the signs of the times and the identification of the sixth seal.

These global disturbances and celestial exhibitions between the years 1755 and 1833, in themselves, however, appear to be forecasts of the things which take place during the great and dreadful day of the Lord." If this be true, then the earthquake foreshadows the forthcoming shaking, sifting, among the nations, as predicted by the prophets:

"Behold, the name of the Lord cometh from far, burning with His anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: His lips are full of indignation, and His tongue as a devouring fire: and His breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err." "And the fir trees shall be terribly shaken." Isa. 30:27, 28; Nah. 2:3.

The darkening of the sun would bespeak the closing of the gospel, the end of probationary time, the time when man "shall run to and fro to seek the Word of the Lord, and shall not find it." "For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and
gross darkness the people." Amos 8:12; Isa. 60:2.

The moon, associated with the sun, makes a fitting symbol of the church, the agency by which the Word of God, the light of the world, is reflected. The moon's becoming as blood immediately following the darkening of the sun, refusing to reflect light, would be an appropriate omen of the church's having finished her work of salvation, no longer needing to reflect the Light of the gospel.

And the church herself is, of course, at that time imbued with eternal life, delivered from destruction as were the firstborn in the dwellings where the door posts had been painted with the sacrificial blood on the evening of the Passover in the land of Egypt.

The falling stars are suggestive of the great and terrible day of the Lord -- the day in which "the heavens...pass away" (2 Pet. 3:10), the day in which all their host is dissolved, and in which the Devil and his host, also the wicked in the church and in the world, "shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree." Isa. 34:4.

All these signs stand as faithful witnesses that the sixth seal, the sixth period of time, brings the great day of God, the wrath of the Lamb.

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Rev. 6:14-17.

In these verses are pictured the fate, the fear, and the smitten conscience of all who are not able to stand in the day of the Judgment of the living, the great and dreadful day of the Lord -- the wrath of the Lamb in the great "time of trouble such as never was" (Dan. 12:1), the day following the appearance of the antitypical "Elijah the prophet" (Mal. 4:5) -- yes, the day in which those who have not clad themselves in the wedding garment, are cast into outer darkness, there to gnash their teeth (Matt. 22:11-13).

Also in these scripture (Rev. 6:14-17), asserts the Spirit of Truth, "two parties are brought to view. One party permitted themselves to be deceived, and took sides with those with whom the Lord has a controversy. They misinterpreted the messages sent them, and clothed themselves in robes of self-righteousness." -- Testimonies, Vol. 9, p. 268.

Thus it is that while the first four seals carry us through the periods of the day in which the works of man are made manifest,the last three seals carry us through the day of God, the day in which His Truth and His works are made manifest.

That there should be a climax of some kind in the Judicial work at this particular point of the Scriptures (Rev. 6:14-17), is not a mystery. Its being stamped with the events which end the reign of sin, and this being realized by even the sinners themselves, is a very good indication that during the sixth seal the Judgment of the dead closes, and the preparations for the Judgment of the living begin. It is the "dreadful day" for the wicked.

Moreover, as the first phase of the Judgment passes with the sixth chapter of Revelation, the second phase begins with the seventh chapter; that is, it begins with the sealing of the living saints, the first fruits. It is the "great day" for the righteous.

"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

"And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." Rev. 7:1-4.

From the implication that "the four winds" are to blow and the four angels are to hurt as soon as the servants of God are sealed is seen looming the "time of trouble" such as never was (Dan. 12:1).

Moving from the four corners of the compass, the winds must represent a worldwide disturbance of some kind. Very obvious it is, too, that their blowing and the angels' hurting, represent two armies in conflict. The wind's blowing is, of course, the anger of the nations against the saints; and the angels' hurting is doubtless the Lord's judgment falling upon His enemies. In other words, the angels and the winds together represent a trouble between God and the nations involving both saints and sinners. Indeed, it is the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

The difference between the "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world" (Matt. 24:21), and the "time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation" (Dan. 12:1), is that during the "great tribulation" the saints are slain (Matt. 24:21, 22), whereas during the "time of trouble" they are delivered (Dan. 12:1).

That the angels' holding the winds does not denote their restraining the nations from warring among themselves, is made clear by the fact that the winds were not held from clashing wind against wind (nation against nation), but rather from hurting the earth, the sea, and the trees.

Moreover, that the nations from the north and from the south, from the east and from the west were engaged in World War I, and also in World War II, although the 144,000 are not yet sealed, is another irrefutable evidence that the trouble which is forecast by the winds' blowing and the angels' hurting, is yet future. That it is a global disturbance, is again seen in the fact that the winds on the one hand, and the angels on the other hand, are to trouble both earth and sea.

It being a foregone conclusion that Satan is against the saints, and that the Lord is against the truth-hating and evil-doing multitude, the subject becomes crystal clear: When let loose, the winds are to strike against the faithful "remnant," against those who are left after the earth has opened her mouth and swallowed up "the flood," the "tares" (Rev. 12:16, 17); but the angels who are stationed to hurt, are to smite those who make war against the remnant.

Those whose names are found in the book, are "delivered." Dan. 12:1. Seeing that the 144,000, the servants of God, are not as yet sealed (not yet enclosed, protected, guarded, and ready to take their stand with the Lamb on Mt. Sion, but rather are still commingled with the tares) the angels are commanded to forestall the clash.

Consequently, when this sealing work is completed, then the angels who hold the winds, will let the winds blow, and the angels who are to hurt the earth, sea, and trees, will then commence their given work.

Otherwise stated, to let the winds blow, is to permit the two-horn beast to decree "that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed" (Rev. 13:15); and to let the angels hurt, is to allow the Lord's decree to take its course: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev. 14:9, 10. This warning is followed by the forecast:

"The four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men." Rev. 9:15.

Both decrees will be in force after the 144,000 are sealed.

Here is seen that from among the first fruits of the harvest, come the 144,000, the servants of God for the closing work of the great harvest. These are the first saints ever to have been relieved of the "tares" among them. Get ready, Brother, Sister, for the time is at hand.

We have now seen that the first six seals reveal a phase of truth covering the history of the world from Adam's time on to
our time. This phase of truth reveals the sealing of the first and second fruits: From among the first fruits come the 144,000 -- 12,000 out of each of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel. Down through the centuries they have descended first as Jacobites and then as Christians. After these, come the second fruits, the great multitude out "of all nations." Rev. 7:9-17.

(The theory that the living saints at the coming of the Lord are only 144,000 in number, is discredited in that it leaves no chance for even one person to be saved from a nation other than the descendants of Jacob, not even from the descendants of Abraham, save through Jacob himself. Moreover, the theory makes the term "first fruits" a vain thing because it does not advocate second fruits.)

Although this is the only part I read, that makes no sense.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

And why couldn't there be second fruits even if the only ones alive at the coming of the Lord are the 144,000?

Galatians 3:29 GSNT And if you belong to Christ, then you are true descendants of Abraham and his heirs under the promise.

"Although this is the only part I read, that makes no sense."

lol, try reading it ALL and admitting that which makes sense instead of only pointing out that which doesn't. That is EXACTLY what the Pharisee's did with Jesus, whatever made clear sense they ignored, but focused exclusively on what error they could find and dwelt on that. I've haven't heard one "I didn't know that or that makes sense" from you only sarcasm and slights and doubtful comments.

For instance, try reading those seal posts and find something good and sensible and share it. If you read them COMPLETELY you might learn something.

"Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment. Yet, when a view of Scripture is presented,many do not ask, Is it true--in harmony with God's word? but, By whom is it advocated?

And unless it comes through the very channel that pleases them, they do not accept it. So thoroughly satisfied are they with their own ideas that they will not examine the Scripture evidence with a desire to learn, but refuse to be interested, merely because of their prejudices.

The Lord often works where we least expect Him; He surprises us by revealing His power through instruments of His own choice, while He passes by the men to whom we have looked as those through whom light should come. God desires us to receive the truth upon its own merits--because it is truth." (Test. to Ministers, p.105-106)

That last quote is in the context that when that report was written (1947) there was quite a few of the leaders and laity that were of the belief that the saint total would only be 144,000 (both from the church and the world). So in today's context this would not be applicable, as both the Shepherd's Rod believers and the SDA believe that there are to be more than 144,000 to be translated at the second coming.

The difference in the two, is that the Srod people believe that the 144,000 are those who survive the church judgment (yes, it's quite sad! See Test. for the Church, vol.1, p.608-609) and that they go out into Babylon to bring in the "great multitude"*Rev. 7:9). So there is both the 144,000 sealed saints (per Ezek. 9) and millions from the world (marked or sealed by rejecting the Sunday law) that are translated.

The SDA believe that the 144,000 are "special servants" of God(see Doug Batchelor studies) and that the vast majority of other SDA survive (Ezek. 9 doesn't happen during probation) through out the time of trouble and the millions around the world come into the current existing SDA church (complete with all it's abominations (abortion upon demand allowed, SDA corporation as a "creature" of the state laws,dress and diet reform gone amuck, etc, etc.)

And that is just the point of the Shepherd Rod study and belief.

They believe the 144,000 are the escaped ones from the Ezekiel nine slaughter in which pretty much all Adventists are killed, which supposedly takes place BEFORE THE SUNDAY LAW.

THEN -- these 144,000 go out to establish a whole KINGDOM of people gathered from all nations in present day Palestine where they live under a Davidian type ruler in peace (after God also takes care of the beast) until Jesus comes.

Your response is exactly what they were trying to get people to give, in order to build on their future kingdom concept.

That is not correct either and I doubt that is what Doug said.

The problem with Shepherd Rod interpretation is that they combine the SIFTING and SHAKING time with Ezekiel 9.

That is where the SR are wrong.

Seventh-day Adventists do believe in the sifting/shaking time. When the scorn of the world is turned against Sabbath Keeping faith led Adventists, those who have compromised with the world will simply continue to compromise with the world and refute their connection with those who uphold the Seventh-day Adventist beliefs, standards and faith.

These compromisers won't be killed they will RENOUNCE their former faith.

The church will be sifted when the laws of the land turn against our standards and beliefs.

I highly doubt that many of our institutions will survive as "Seventh-day Adventist" during this time.

But that is very different from the SR interpretations, who take statements from EGW concerning the shaking, and attach them to Ezekiel nine.
EGW makes it plain that Ezekiel nine takes place AT THE END when God delivers His people.

The shaking occurs when the vast number of Adventists and Adventist institutions refute their belief and join with the increasingly powerful ecumenical side.

This will be the great testing.
The faithful will give the loud cry under very oppressive conditions, but the whole world will hear it.


But wasn't this the topic of the Ezekiel nine thread?
Aren't we off topic?

Response to "Dedication" and her statements in quotes.

"That is not correct either and I doubt that is what Doug said."

It's all there in his video of the 144,000, watch it.

"But that is very different from the SR interpretations, who take statements from EGW concerning the shaking, and attach them to Ezekiel nine.EGW makes it plain that Ezekiel nine takes place AT THE END when God delivers His people."

This is not what the SR teach.The shaking is happening now, there is a struggle, as we all know between those who accept His Rod and those who don't and many are being shaked by it. The SR teach that Ezekiel 9 is the "result" of the shaking.

You stated that EGW places it at the "END", when exactly is your placement here? In the last plague?

And if you believe that Ezek.9 happens within the 7th plague then do you also believe that the "sealing" of the 144,000 takes place at that time?

"But wasn't this the topic of the Ezekiel nine thread?
Aren't we off topic?"

The reason this issue was addressed was because it was the last quote on the sixth seal and some had commented about it. If you want to take this seal study and move it to another thread (new) that's ok with me. I do agree that this thread has "morphed" into a different subject than was originally stated.

His video is at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ea68hUyjc0

He isn't saying all the sinful stuff will be in the church etc. etc. when the 144,000, filled with the Holy Spirit witness for the Lord.






There are several times you mentioned that God would cleanse his church, then quoted from EGW where she speaks of the shaking, and then you linked it to Ezekiel 9.
You have repeatedly linked the "cleansing of the church" with the last verses of Ezekiel 9.

However the church IS NOT CLEANSED by Ezekiel 9. It is cleansed by persecution which causes the lukewarm to RENOUNCE their faith and join the opposition.

Then we will see who serves the Lord and who does not.
We will SEE the difference between those who renounce the faith and join with the ecumenical wold religion and those who cling to their faith in spite of opposition.



Read Great Controversy pages 655-656
It's when God's Voice delivers His faithful from the death decree, just before Jesus comes again.


Of course not.
The sealing of the 144,000 must take place prior to the close of probation. Once probation closes there are no more conversions. I shared all that in the Ezekiel 9 thread.

Every church member will be tested when the laws of the land oppose their worship of the Creator God. Then it will be seen if they have been committing themselves to God all along, or if they have been merely professing to serve him. It is this test that seals their destiny.

It is also those who stand firm that proclaim the "Loud Cry".


The four winds held by the angels are not the Sunday laws -- the winds are not released till probation is closed for the world and Satan, given free reign, plunges the whole world in destruction, and the seven last plagues fall after probation is closed.

EGW writes: " I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues. {CET 100 and Early Writings page 36}

First, I will answer any questions you ask of me and would like you to do the same,would that be ok with you?

"He isn't saying all the sinful stuff will be in the church etc. etc. when the 144,000, filled with the Holy Spirit witness for the Lord."

You mis-understood the comment. The comment --"The SDA believe that the 144,000 are "special servants" of God(see Doug Batchelor studies)" This is the extent of what Doug says that I brought up, I did not intend to say the rest of the comment was or was not Doug's view. Otherwise I would have added the (see Doug Batchelor studies) at the END of my comment.

However the church IS NOT CLEANSED by Ezekiel 9. It is cleansed by persecution which causes the lukewarm to RENOUNCE their faith and join the opposition.

There several problems with this view. We know that Ezekiel 9 destruction happens in the "midst of Jerusalem" and "Israel".

Can you show quotes where EGW or Scripture call the world, or Babylon -- Israel?

I asked --And if you believe that Ezek.9 happens within the 7th plague then do you also believe that the "sealing" of the 144,000 takes place at that time?

"Of course not.
The sealing of the 144,000 must take place prior to the close of probation. Once probation closes there are no more conversions. I shared all that in the Ezekiel 9 thread."

If the sealing of the 144,000 occurs "before" probation, then how do you explain EGW -Testimonies to Ministers, p.445, where she says Ezekiel 9 and Rev. 7 sealings are the same event?


"Read Great Controversy pages 655-656
It's when God's Voice delivers His faithful from the death decree, just before Jesus comes again."

This ,as we've shown on that thread can only be a secondary application. Sister White did not have all the light on this understanding. That was for the "Elijah". Because there are just too many holes and gaps from Scripture and EGW to be solely in the 7th plague.In other words, it's primary application.

If we believe as you do that Ezekiel comes in the 7th plague "delivers His faithful", then in no way shape or form can this be even REMOTELY the -- "first stroke of God's wrath"(Test. for the Church, vol. 5, p.211). The Sun's burning, the great pain of their sores, etc. all are CLEARLY God's wrath. Further more Scripture confirms this, "..Seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the WRATH OF GOD is complete>" (Rev. 15:1)

I know that some have agenda's to stick with and must throw out the word "first". It twists into "not first".

It's the same devil trick from the beginning "Surely you shall not die." When His word plainly says "Surely you shall die." (Gen.3:3-4)

"It is also those who stand firm that proclaim the "Loud Cry"."

Specifically, we know that ONLY THOSE" who withstand temptation BEFORE the Loud Cry can take part in it. (Review and Herald, Nov. 19. 1908)

Do you see how NOW the work of overcoming is what the SDA must do, in order to be allowed to take part in the Loud Cry?

Further, Inspiration flatly says this -- "Not ONE of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have ONE spot or stain upon them It is left WITH US to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of EVERY DEFILEMENT." (Test. for the Church, vol. 5, p.214)

"The four winds held by the angels are not the Sunday laws--"

What do you do with Test. for the Church, vol, 5, p.152?

"The time is coming when we cannot sell at any price. The decree will soon go forth prohibiting men to
buy or sell of any man save him that hath the mark of the beast. We came near having this realized in
California a short time since; but this was only the threatening of the blowing of the four winds. As yet
they are held by the four angels. We are not just ready. There is a work yet to be done, and then the
angels will be bidden to let go, that the four winds may blow upon the earth. That will be a decisive
time for God's children, a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation. Now is our
opportunity to work."

Who among us would say that the "mark of the beast" is NOT the Sunday law?

"EGW writes: " I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues. {CET 100 and Early Writings page 36}"

Yes, we have a seeming quandary here, two apparent contradictions .

However, she also says this, "They will feed upon the errors and mistakes and faults of others, 'until,' said the angel, 'the Lord Jesus shall rise up from his mediatorial work in the heavenly sanctuary, and shall clothe himself with the garments of vengeance, and surprise them at their unholy feast; and they will find themselves unprepared for the marriage supper of the Lamb.'"--Testimonies Vol. 5, p. 690.

These are automatically harmonized when it is understood that Christ leaves the sanctuary more than the one time: Once after "the closing work for the church" (Testimonies, Vol. 3, p. 266), and again after the closing work for the world.

Additionally, we have to deduct that the "four winds" have more than one application.

Great Controversy page 37 "The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon his law."

"In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law."--GC 36



We need to read the whole context. I don't want to post the whole section so will only choose the main thoughts pertinent to this discussion.

Testimony to Ministers pages 444-446
" If such scenes as this are to come, such tremendous judgments on a guilty world, where will be the refuge for God's people? ...These winds are under control until God gives the word to let them go. There is the safety of God's church.... Those that overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil, will be the favored ones who shall receive the seal of the living God.....(Those who) are allured by sin, setting up idols in their hearts, corrupting their souls before God, and polluting those who unite with them in sin, will have their names blotted out of the book of life, and be left in midnight darkness, having no oil in their vessels with their lamps....
This sealing of the servants of God is the same that was shown to Ezekiel in vision.

EGW is referring to the sealing.
She is NOT saying the sealing and the destruction are one and the same thing.
Both Ezekiel 9 and Revelation 7 are speaking of the sealing to take place prior to the final turmoil, which the destruction of Jerusalem IN THE PAST was a foreshadow of the destruction to befall the whole world.

Take note -- she is talking about "judgments coming upon a guilty world."

She is talking about the importance of obtaining the seal of God prior to these "judgements coming upon a guilty world."









I really don't see any "holes or gaps" at all.
The Sunday laws are the TEST that will bring first the Sabbath keepers to decision (are they serious about their commitment to God or not) and a great majority will renounce their faith. Thus they themselves seal their destiny. Those faithful will testify for the Lord and the whole world will be brought to decision.

However, I don't see millions upon millions accepting the message. Revelation paints a very different picture. "The whole world worships the beast and his image" Rev. 13. The faithful will be in hiding with a death decree on their heads.

God delivers them with a mighty earth quake, and declaration from heaven, and this is during the seventh plague.









Again we must read the whole chapter, not just pick out one phrase and build our understanding on that.

By rearranging the words it gives them a different meaning.

EGW wrote: "was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God" 5T 211
You wrote: "first stroke of God's wrath"

EGW's statement doesn't say it was the first stroke.
But in this particular punishment the false leaders were the first to feel this wrath.

And in Great controversy page 656
she gives the same explanation.
When the people realize they have followed deceptions and have been fighting against God, their violent reaction is to attack the false religious teachers.
These leaders, especially the ones who should have known better, and did know better, are the first to "feel the wrath".











The mark of the beast is not the Sunday law. The enactment of the Sunday laws CAUSE people to receive the mark of the beast.

The "seal of God" involves our allegiance to the Creator God and His law.
The "mark of the beast" involves allegiance to the papacy and his supposed power over God's law.

People don't receive the "mark of the beast" because of Sunday laws, they only receive the "mark of the beast" if they submit to those laws and give their allegiance to the beast.

Thus during this awful testing time --
people will receive either the seal of God
or
The mark of the beast
depending upon their choice.

The winds are NOT let loose TWICE.
They are let lose gradually, developing in fury.

Christ does NOT leave the sanctuary several times.
He leaves the sanctuary ONCE when probation for the world closes. Just because people's choices settle them into one or the other of the two opposing camps prior, does not mean Christ has to leave the sanctuary each time. He leaves the sanctuary when EVERYONE who will be sealed for the eternal kingdom IS sealed.

Your quote --"Great Controversy page 37 "The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon his law."

"In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law."--GC 36"

Talking about “visitations of judgments” upon Jerusalem, in no way shape or form is calling the world-Jerusalem or Israel. The statement connects Jerusalem's judgments as a type of what is to come to the world.

Compare the vague statments above to this –-
“ ….Seventh-day Adventists must have the Holy Spirit in their hearts and in their homes. The Lord has given me light that when the Israel of today humble themselves before Him, and cleanse the soul-temple from all defilement, He will hear their prayers in behalf of the sick and will bless in the use of His remedies for disease. “(Testimonies, vol. 9, p.164)

Your words as -- We need to read the whole context. I don't want to post the whole section so will only choose the main thoughts pertinent to this discussion.

Testimony to Ministers pages 444-446
" If such scenes as this are to come, such tremendous judgments on a guilty world, where will be the refuge for God's people? ...These winds are under control until God gives the word to let them go. There is the safety of God's church.... Those that overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil, will be the favored ones who shall receive the seal of the living God.....(Those who) are allured by sin, setting up idols in their hearts, corrupting their souls before God, and polluting those who unite with them in sin, will have their names blotted out of the book of life, and be left in midnight darkness, having no oil in their vessels with their lamps....
This sealing of the servants of God is the same that was shown to Ezekiel in vision.

EGW is referring to the sealing.
She is NOT saying the sealing and the destruction are one and the same thing.

Let's read that quote again, “This sealing of the servants of God is the same that was shown to Ezekiel in vision. John also had been a witness of this most startling revelation.”

Let's look at the prior words so as to bring it in “context”. In p. 444, she says, “John see the elements of nature – earthquakes, tempest, and political strife-represented as being held by the four angels. These winds are under control until God gives the word to let them go...that the winds should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor any tree, until the servants of God should be sealed in their foreheads.”

Then she says a couple paragraphs further, “This sealing”. What sealing? The sealing of the 144,000.
“..is the same as Ezekiel saw in vision.” What vision? Only Ezekiel 9 has the “marking/sealing” vision of God's people in the whole book of Ezekiel. Notice they see the same vision which takes place and effects the same outcome. Sealing and destruction together. John was “startled” by it, just as Ezekiel was “Ah Lord! Will You destroy all the remnant of Israel in pouring out Your fury on Jerusalem?”.

Further, the marking or sealing in connection with Ezekiel is also illuminated in Testimonies, vol. 5, p505--
“When God was about to smite the first-born of Egypt, He commanded the Israelites to gather their children from among the Egyptians into their own dwellings and strike their door posts with blood, that he destroying angel might see it and pass over their homes. It was the work of parents to gather in their children. This is your work, this is my work, and the work of every mother who believes the truth.

The angel is to place a mark upon the forehead of all who are separated from sin and sinners, and the destroying angel will follow, to slay utterly both old and young.” (Please note this is under the heading “The education of our children” where she talks about “our own people”.

Bottomline-- to separate the sealing of the 144,000 from Ezekiel 9 is to render her quote (p.445) meaningless.

She is talking about the importance of obtaining the seal of God prior to these "judgments coming upon a guilty world."

This is something I agree with “importance of obtaining the seal prior” to His judgments. Her writings of Rev. 7 and Ezekiel 9 almost always include the warnings that NOW is the time to “sigh and cry” for the abominations done in the midst.
One thing we can agree on is that those who “look the other way” at sin amongst His people/church will not receive the seal of Rev. 7.(see Testimonies, vol. 3 , p.266-268, vol. 5, p.210-212)

I really don't see any "holes or gaps" at all.
The Sunday laws are the TEST that will bring first the Sabbath keepers to decision (are they serious about their commitment to God or not) and a great majority will renounce their faith. Thus they themselves seal their destiny. Those faithful will testify for the Lord and the whole world will be brought to decision.

If it be true that the beast’s decree is to sift out the unconverted (the tares) that are in the church then one must conclude that the beast is not symbol of a power of dragon-like principle, but a heaven-sent agency, sent to cast out the tares which the dragon has brought in!

It is Satan’s predetermined purpose to pollute the church by multiplying instead of reducing the disloyal members. Is this burden of the purifying work, Satan’s or the Lord’s? Satan is doing nothing to purify the church, but is doing everything to pollute it.

 Therefore the beast’s decree and his rigid enforcement of it, are not for the purpose of purifying the church, but for the purpose of blockading the way out of Babylon, thereby holding the world captive. This he does specifically to halt the steady flow of multitudes of converts to the then already purged and purified church.

In spite, however of the Enemy’s heaviest efforts to keep them in Babylon, the faithful will come out.

They will take heed to the Lord’s counsel: “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.” Rev. 14:9, 10.

Again we must read the whole chapter, not just pick out one phrase and build our understanding on that.

By rearranging the words it gives them a different meaning.

EGW wrote: "was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God" 5T 211
You wrote: "first stroke of God's wrath"

When I read these words it was like, “3 + 4 = 7 is not the same as one digit which is 7”. Allow me to explain.

The beginning of the paragraph says “Here we see the church- the Lord's sanctuary was the first to feel the stroke of God's wrath. We cannot escape the clear understanding here. Yes, the “false religious leaders” are the ones that the smiting starts with but it is within His church. At the end of that paragraph it says “Men, maidens, and little children all perish together.” Where? Within His sanctuary.

So all those within His church are to be first to experience --His stroke of wrath. As mentioned this cannot be true when we falsely assume that the sores, the sun burning , etc. all happen before what she said because these are certainly strokes of God's wrath.

The mark of the beast is not the Sunday law. The enactment of the Sunday laws CAUSE people to receive the mark of the beast.

The Sunday law must occur and be set up before the mark of the beast can be given. We can't have the cart before the horse.

“The time is coming when we cannot sell at any price. The decree will soon go forth prohibiting men to
buy or sell of any man save him that hath the mark of the beast. We came near having this realized in
California a short time since; but this was only the threatening of the blowing of the four winds. As yet
they are held by the four angels.” (Testimonies, vol.5, p.152)

We as Adventists know very well that the restrictions/ prohibitions of buying and selling are in force when the “Sunday law” is in force. And reading her clear words we cannot escape the fact that she equates the “blowing of the four winds” to the decree of the law enforcement. Do you mean to say that this restriction and mark of the beast are the results of another law apart from or before the Sunday law?

We are clearly shown that it is the FOUR ANGELS of Rev. 7, she is referencing the connections here to.
Again we can see that in Rev. 7, the sealing is done before the angels release the four winds. She makes all these connections in that one verse.

The "seal of God" involves our allegiance to the Creator God and His law.

The sealing of God is more than that, we observe –

Being sealed in Christ “with that Holy Spirit of promise,” after having “heard the word of truth” (Eph. 1:13- 4:30), the saints are consequently sealed by Present Truth---the truth preached in their own day.

“The seal of the living God,” the Truth, by which the 144,000 are sealed (Rev. 7:2), is a special seal, being the same as “the mark” of Ezekiel 9. (See Testimonies to Ministers, p. 445; Testimonies, Vol. 3, p. 267; Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 211). It demands one’s sighing and crying over the abominations which defile him, and which desecrate both the Sabbath and the house of God, especially against selling literature and raising goals during Sabbath services.

As the saints have this seal or mark on their foreheads, the angels will pass over them, not slay them. It is equivalent to the blood on the door post on the night of the Passover in Egypt. The angel is to place a mark upon the foreheads of all who by sighing over their own sins, and over the sins in the house of God, show fidelity to the Truth.

Then the destroying angels will follow, to slay utterly both old and young who have failed to receive the seal. (See Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 505)
So, the former seal enables the receiver to rise from the dead in the resurrection of the just, while the latter seal enables the sighing-crying one to escape death and forever to live for God.” (Answerer Q-21)

Christ does NOT leave the sanctuary several times.
He leaves the sanctuary ONCE when probation for the world closes.

Early Writings (p.36)says that Christ will not leave the sanctuary before His “work is done,” yet elsewhere she writes: “They will feed upon the errors and mistakes and faults of others, ‘until,’ said the angel, ‘the Lord Jesus shall rise up from his mediatorial work in the heavenly sanctuary, and shall clothe himself with the garments of vengeance, and surprise them at their unholy feast; and they will find themselves unprepared for the marriage supper of the Lamb.”’-(Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 690.)

From the above context of surrounding pages, we can see clearly that she is addressing our Church not the world's. “Testimonies for the Church” volumes are largely messages to us as SDA and we should keep that in mind.

Viewing both statements, we see that Christ leaves the sanctuary at a certain time in the “unrolling of the scroll.” Coming to the church, He finds her not spotless and ready to meet Him, but deep in sin, yet self-complacently feeding upon the errors, faults, and mistakes of others.

These are automatically harmonized when it is understood that Christ leaves the sanctuary more than the one time: Once after “the closing work for the church” (Testimonies, Vol. 3, p. 266), and again after the closing work for the world. 

Exactly!

Ezekiel nine is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem which is an example or foreshadowing of the destruction to fall upon the whole world.

Ezekiel's first focus is on his own nation that was about to fall. We are told it this is a FORESHADOW of things to come.
A foreshadowing of the destruction to befall the whole world.
So we need to stay with what it says, not seek other interpretations.




But that isn't speaking of the same thing.
Yes, through Christ we have become Abrabam's seed and heirs according to the promise. (See Galatians 3:29)

But that doesn't change the fact that
the ancient destruction of Jerusalem is a foreshadowing of the destruction that will befall the whole world in last days.





I agreed -- the sealing in Ezekiel 9 and the sealing in Revelation 7 are speaking of the same thing.

But no where is it implied that the destruction happens before the winds of strife are let loose.





And who received the plague in Egypt?
Was it only the Israelites who refused to accept God's provision for their salvation? Or was it the whole country?

Again an apt foreshadowing --
We must now seek the preparation necessary to be under Christ's saving blood with our children and urge all others to do the same.
When the destruction comes it will be on the whole world -- all who failed to claim the blood of Christ's cleansing and salvation.




I'm not separating the sealing from Ezekiel 9, however, the sealing and the destruction that follows is not one and the same thing, even in Ezekiel 9. One is done and fully completed before the other takes place.



She is talking about the importance of obtaining the seal of God prior to these "judgments coming upon a guilty world."



Ah.... are you sure?
What about the inquisition and all the persecutions during the dark ages. In those days people counted the cost before they accepted a Bible based belief that differed from the proscribed "beastly" program.

"Prosperity multiplies a mass of professors. Adversity purges them out of the church.--4T 89 (1876).
"In the absence of the persecution there have drifted into our ranks men who appear sound and their Christianity unquestionable, but who, if persecution should arise, would go out from us.--Ev 360 (1890).
When the law of God is made void the church will be sifted by fiery trials, and a larger proportion than we now anticipate will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.--2SM 368 (1891).
As trials thicken around us, both separation and unity will be seen in our ranks. Some who are now ready to take up weapons of warfare will in times of real peril make it manifest that they have not built upon the solid rock; they will yield to temptation. Those who have had great light and precious privileges but have not improved them will, under one pretext or another, go out from us.--6T 400 (1900).



Satan's purpose is to get the whole world to worship him (see Rev. 13 and Is. 14)
The reason he is now polluting the church is so that it will fall in line with his agenda. By eroding the foundation of people's faith and conviction, he will be assured that the vast majority will join his movement of a one world religion over which he will sit as "god'.

 

Actually the world will be in distress, economically and environmentally, and people will think they can turn the tide by "returning to God" but their whole concept of truth has been so adulterated by spiritualistic concepts that they will actually be worshipping the dragon.
They will think that getting the whole world to "consecrate themselves" to the spiritualistic religion (with papacy at the head) they will leap into the next evolutionary level of super humans.
But those who hold to fundamental doctrines from scripture will be seen as the enemies of this advance. As long as the world is not in unity in its devotion to this spiritualistic religion, the "new age" won't happen, so the death decree goes out.


"As men depart further and further from God, Satan is permitted to have power over the children of disobedience. He hurls destruction among men. There is calamity by land and sea. Property and life are destroyed by fire and flood. Satan resolves to charge this upon those who refuse to bow to the idol which he has set up. His agents point to Seventh-day Adventists as the cause of the trouble. "These people stand out in defiance of law," they say. "They desecrate Sunday. Were they compelled to obey the law for Sunday observance, there would be a cessation of these terrible judgments." {Mar 176.2}

As Spiritualism more closely imitates the nominal Christianity of the day, it has greater power to deceive and ensnare. Satan himself is converted, after the modern order of things. He will appear in the character of an angel of light. Through the agency of Spiritualism, miracles will be wrought, the sick will be healed, and many undeniable wonders will be performed. And as the spirits will profess faith in the Bible, and manifest respect for the institutions of the church, their work will be accepted as a manifestation of divine power. {GC88 588.2}
The line of distinction between professed Christians and the ungodly is now hardly distinguishable. Church-members love what the world loves, and are ready to join with them; and Satan determines to unite them in one body, and thus strengthen his cause by sweeping all into the ranks of Spiritualism. Papists, who boast of miracles as a certain sign of the true church, will be readily deceived by this wonder-working power; and Protestants, having cast away the shield of truth, will also be deluded. Papists, Protestants, and worldlings will alike accept the form of godliness
without the power, and they will see in this union a grand movement for the conversion of the world, and the ushering in of the long-expected millennium. {GC88 588.3}

Will respond shortly, haven't forgot :-)

I said -- Talking about “visitations of judgments” upon Jerusalem, in no way shape or form is calling the world-Jerusalem or Israel. The statement connects Jerusalem's judgments as a type of what is to come to the world.


You said -- "Exactly!

Ezekiel nine is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem which is an example or foreshadowing of the destruction to fall upon the whole world.

Ezekiel's first focus is on his own nation that was about to fall. We are told it this is a FORESHADOW of things to come.
A foreshadowing of the destruction to befall the whole world.
So we need to stay with what it says, not seek other interpretations."

Yes we do need to stay focused and “stay with what it says”. Your answer here has multiple issues.

1) Your first comment ”speaking of destruction” does not address nor answer my original question -- Can you show quotes where EGW or Scripture calls the world,-- Babylon or Israel?(also Jerusalem or Judah?)

It's clear that the fact of the matter is that there is no Scripture or SOP writings that ever calls the world or Babylon –-- Israel, Jerusalem or Judah. These terms have always either indicated the literal application, or as we SDA know-- the remnant church.

We need to get back to the basics of understanding a VERY IMPORTANT principal of God's word. We must always study SOP writings and square it with the Bible, not the other way around. When we try and put her writings in light that seems to counter God's direct word we can really get in trouble and mixed up.

Regarding this matter she says, “The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience...The Spirit was not given – nor can it ever be bestowed-- to supersede the Bible; for the Scriptures explicitly state that the word of God is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.” (Preface, page vii – Great Controversy)

With the above guidelines firmly in mind, let us go back to that quote which we are addressing. In Ezekiel 9, we notice the following facts.

1) The Lord draws near to His “temple”. His church.(Ezek. 9:3)

2) He directs His angels to “go through the midst of the city, through the midst of JERUSALEM and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done in the MIDST.” (Ezek. 9:4)

3) The destruction is in His church “Defile the TEMPLE, and fill the COURTS with the slain, Go out! And they went out and killed in the CITY.”(Ezek.9:7)

4) More confirmation is given as to who and where this destruction is given. “Ah Lord God! Will you destroy all the remnant of ISRAEL in pouring our Your fury on JERUSALEM.” (Ezek. 9:8)

5) The Lord Himself identifies those who this future vision is directed to, “The iniquity of the house of ISRAEL and JUDAH is exceedingly great, and the land is full of bloodshed, and the city full of perversity; for they say, “The LORD has forsaken the land, and the LORD does not see!” (Ezek. 9:9)

After reading these very clear statements we cannot look at GC, p.656 and then say about Ezek.9 “Oh well, all those terms “Israel, Jerusalem, Judah” mean the world. If we do we are then violating Inspiration's clear guidelines to make SOP writings fit the Bible not the Bible fit SOP writings. It appears your ideas attempt to do this. So clearly when the Lord says “begin at my sanctuary”(church) there appears further work for these angels of destruction to do later and that SOP saw the end application of this work in GC p.656.

She DID NOT have all the light in this regard (Ezek.9). The last prophet Elijah was to describe all the understandings of “the great and dreadful day of the Lord” not EGW.(This is another subject altogether)

To summarize, we must take the Bible as it reads and if possible try and understand SOP writings as a “compliment” to it, NEVER as a replacement of what it clearly says.


“I agreed -- the sealing in Ezekiel 9 and the sealing in Revelation 7 are speaking of the same thing.

But no where is it implied that the destruction happens before the winds of strife are let loose.” 


After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. (Rev. 7:1-4)

What we see is:
1)The winds of destruction are held back UNTIL the 144,000 are sealed in the forehead.
2) The winds obviously must be able to harm the 144,000, so the holding back is necessary until the sealing job is done.
3)As Ezek.9 and Rev.7 are the “same thing”, then the vision scene must be seen as one event.
4)What destruction do we see in Ezek. 9? We see the Lord slaying WITHIN His sanctuary.
5)And where can we find specifically where Inspiration (EGW) describes the four winds in connection with the mark of the beast (Sunday law)?

“The time is coming when we cannot sell at any price. The decree will soon go forth prohibiting men to
buy or sell of any man save him that hath the mark of the beast. We came near having this realized in
California a short time since; but this was only the threatening of the blowing of the four winds. As yet
they are held by the four angels.” (Testimonies, vol.5, p.152)

By the way, can I ask why you've never addressed the above quote? We cannot overlook such a plain statement.

So to summarize the sealing of the 144,000 can only take place BEFORE the Sunday law. The destruction of Ezekiel 9 (same event in vision) likewise must happen before the Sunday law . The church purification is to fit the church for the Loud Cry. A pure house of God where the “called out” ones can come into. Then only can His 'full Spirit” be poured out among His church.
“Clad in the armor of Christ’s righteousness, the church is to enter upon her final conflict. “Fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners” (Song of Solomon 6:10), she is to go forth into all the world, conquering and to conquer. “(Prophets and Kings, p.725)

I said -- Further, the marking or sealing in connection with Ezekiel is also illuminated in Testimonies, vol. 5, p.505--

“When God was about to smite the first-born of Egypt, He commanded the Israelites to gather their children from among the Egyptians into their own dwellings and strike their door posts with blood, that he destroying angel might see it and pass over their homes. It was the work of parents to gather in their children. This is your work, this is my work, and the work of every mother who believes the truth. 

The angel is to place a mark upon the forehead of all who are separated from sin and sinners, and the destroying angel will follow, to slay utterly both old and young.” (Please note this is under the heading “The education of our children” where she talks about “our own people”.

"And who received the plague in Egypt?
Was it only the Israelites who refused to accept God's provision for their salvation? Or was it the whole country?"

The judgment of Ezek. 9 goes to both the Israel of today (SDA) and then the world (Babylon). It is --two stages, “first wrath”(5 Test. p.211) upon God's people --Israel, then later the final wrath upon the world.The delay in the two stages is the fact that the Loud Cry must be done to the world before the second application goes forth.

If it be true that the beast’s decree is to sift out the unconverted (the tares) that are in the church then one must conclude that the beast is not symbol of a power of dragon-like principle, but a heaven-sent agency, sent to cast out the tares which the dragon has brought in!


"Ah.... are you sure?
What about the inquisition and all the persecutions during the dark ages. In those days people counted the cost before they accepted a Bible based belief that differed from the proscribed "beastly" program."

Then you quote {Mar 176.2} and {GC88 588.2-3}
All these quotes are good (GC 588, etc.), and point to the time of the great spiritual war between Jesus and Satan, agreed. But the fact remain that those who do not “sigh and cry” for sins done in the church and their own lives won't see the “distress” times you mentioned. The SDA church purification as shown already must produce the “servants of God” in order for the great mighty work to be done at last. Not the mark of the beast decree, because as we've shown Ezekiel 9 happens before it.

In describing Ezekiel 9 then the 144,000 post Ezek.9, we read in Joel.

.A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. Fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns. The land is like the garden of Eden before them, but behind them a desolate wilderness, and nothing escapes them. Their appearance is like the appearance of horses, and like war horses they run. As with the rumbling of chariots, they leap on the tops of the mountains, like the crackling of a flame of fire devouring the stubble, like a powerful army drawn up for battle.”(Joel 2:2-5)

In the last days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and peoples will stream to it. Many nations will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.” (Micah 4:1-3)

Instead of being weak and unable to stand strong in the final days as some think, we know the church will be-- “Clad in the armor of Christ's righteousness, the church is to enter upon her final conflict. "Fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners" (Song of Solomon 6:10), she is to go forth into all the world, conquering and to conquer.

Here we see that His church, instead of being weak and fragmented is to stand united as a body which the whole world will tremble before (Remember the many of Babylon are now part of His church). Their power imparted by God is of such magnitude that Satan and his Sunday people will not be able to stop them.Yes, the final war upon God's people will take place by the apostates known as Armageddon, but the Holy pure church will be delivered.

GL&L WROTE: I said -- Talking about “visitations of judgments” upon Jerusalem, in no way shape or form is calling the world-Jerusalem or Israel. The statement connects Jerusalem's judgments as a type of what is to come to the world.


DEDICATION WROTE: "Exactly -- what befell Jerusalem is an example of what will befall the whole world!

Ezekiel nine is speaking first of the destruction of literal Jerusalem in the days of Ezekiel and we are told that destruction of Jerusalem is an example or foreshadowing of the destruction to fall upon the whole world.

Ezekiel's first focus is on his own nation that was about to fall. We are told it this is a FORESHADOW of things to come.
A foreshadowing of the destruction to befall the whole world.
So we need to stay with what it says, not seek other interpretations."

GL&L WROTE: Yes we do need to stay focused and “stay with what it says”. Your answer here has multiple issues.

1) Your first comment ”speaking of destruction” does not address nor answer my original question -- Can you show quotes where EGW or Scripture calls the world,-- Babylon or Israel?(also Jerusalem or Judah?)

DIDICATION WRITES: I don't need to answer that question, for we are not speaking of identifying symbols here.
A literal event in history is an example of what will happen to the whole world.

There is no need to make symbols of things that aren't symbols.
EGW in her statement is not speaking of that destruction as a symbol, but as an example.
Why make symbols of things that aren't used in a symbolic manner?

Just like in Matt. 24


GL&L We need to get back to the basics of understanding a VERY IMPORTANT principal of God's word. We must always study SOP writings and square it with the Bible, not the other way around.

Dedication writes: Yet, the conclusions you have reached are not primarily from the Bible, but by using EGW (and Houteff) are they not?
A simple reading of Ezekiel shows a prophet speaking to his people (in Judea) who at that time were facing imminent destruction by the Babylonian armies.

GL&L writes: With the above guidelines firmly in mind, let us go back to that quote which we are addressing. In Ezekiel 9, we notice the following facts.

1) The Lord draws near to His “temple”. His church.(Ezek. 9:3)

2) He directs His angels to “go through the midst of the city, through the midst of JERUSALEM and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done in the MIDST.” (Ezek. 9:4)

3) The destruction is in His church “Defile the TEMPLE, and fill the COURTS with the slain, Go out! And they went out and killed in the CITY.”(Ezek.9:7)

4) More confirmation is given as to who and where this destruction is given. “Ah Lord God! Will you destroy all the remnant of ISRAEL in pouring our Your fury on JERUSALEM.” (Ezek. 9:8)

5) The Lord Himself identifies those who this future vision is directed to, “The iniquity of the house of ISRAEL and JUDAH is exceedingly great, and the land is full of bloodshed, and the city full of perversity; for they say, “The LORD has forsaken the land, and the LORD does not see!” (Ezek. 9:9)

After reading these very clear statements we cannot look at GC, p.656 and then say about Ezek.9 “Oh well, all those terms “Israel, Jerusalem, Judah” mean the world.

DEDICATION WRITES: What you are forgetting is that Ezekiel is speaking about the literal temple that Solomon built, and the literal city of Jerusalem, and the literal people living there back in his day. The armies of Babylon were about to come level the city, many thousands would be killed, and the rest taken captive. Of course he is clearly speaking of Jerusalem and Judea, because that is where he was directing his message to.

Now you accept EGW's statement that there would be another more terrible fulfilment.
And she tells us WHEN that fulfilment will be.

Many of the OT prophecies that were primarily directed to the prophets contemporary Israelites also have applications to last day events. However, their applications do not follow a step by step literal replay of the original fulfilment.

As I take EGW's statement that Ezekiel will have a literal future fulfilment, I also take her explanation of when that fulfilment will be. (GC 656)

The parallels are all there.
Just like the Jewish leaders were the first to fall and receive the wrath of the Babylonian armies in the temple compounds,
So in the final fulfillment the religious leaders will be the first to receive the terrible anger of the people they have deceived.
And the destruction of Jerusalem is an example of the destruction of the whole world in the end.



GL&L wrote She (EGW DID NOT have all the light in this regard (Ezek.9). The last prophet Elijah was to describe all the understandings of “the great and dreadful day of the Lord” not EGW.(This is another subject altogether)

We can always find more truth in scripture. But the man who I think you are referring to as Elijah (V.Houteff) destroys a lot of the truth that was revealed to Ellen White.
Thus I do not consider him a prophet.

You have given a very thorough explanation of your belief.
Thank-you.

Now for the other side.



GL&L wrote: What we see is:
1)The winds of destruction are held back UNTIL the 144,000 are sealed in the forehead.
2) The winds obviously must be able to harm the 144,000, so the holding back is necessary until the sealing job is done.


Releasing the four winds are the releasing of the human passions and releasing the restraints put on Satan.


The four winds are held back until everyone who can be saved is saved, then probation closes and the winds are let loose.

Obviously from numerous quotes, those winds are already 'slipping' and are blowing more and more, yet the full impact of them is still held under control until "this message of the kingdom is preached in all the world and then shall the end come".

Christ leaving the sanctuary, the close of probation and the full release of the four winds happen at the same time.

Thus it is imperative that the sealing be done prior to the full release of the winds, for after it will be too late.



GL&L wrote: 3)As Ezek.9 and Rev.7 are the “same thing”, then the vision scene must be seen as one event.
4)What destruction do we see in Ezek. 9? We see the Lord slaying WITHIN His sanctuary.
5)And where can we find specifically where Inspiration (EGW) describes the four winds in connection with the mark of the beast (Sunday law)?


“The time is coming when we cannot sell at any price. The decree will soon go forth prohibiting men to
buy or sell of any man save him that hath the mark of the beast. We came near having this realized in
California a short time since; but this was only the threatening of the blowing of the four winds. As yet
they are held by the four angels.” (Testimonies, vol.5, p.152
By the way, can I ask why you've never addressed the above quote? We cannot overlook such a plain statement.)

I haven't overlooked it -- I addressed it in a previous post either on this thread or the Ezekiel 9 thread.

This quote does not say the four winds are the Sunday laws. Though the final effort to destroy all resistors to these laws will be part of the released four winds.

But in the beginning they are the "threatening" that soon those winds will be fully released.
Sunday laws come before the mark of the beast, and before the close of probation and before the full release of the four winds.




Above are several quotes that the releasing of the four winds is when God's restraint on human passions and satanic activity is removed and the whole world is plunged into a destruction worse than that which befell Jerusalem of old.


GL&L wrote: So to summarize the sealing of the 144,000 can only take place BEFORE the Sunday law. The destruction of Ezekiel 9 (same event in vision) likewise must happen before the Sunday law . The church purification is to fit the church for the Loud Cry. A pure house of God where the “called out” ones can come into. Then only can His 'full Spirit” be poured out among His church.

How can this be, if God's people GOD'S CHURCH must first have the Sunday law test before they are sealed, as we just read?



And how could this quote be true if all apostate church members are dead before the test even comes?



Yes, the church will be cleansed, multitudes, when faced with persecution will renounce their faith and leave.

And no -- the persecutors are not "God's agents" they are the devil's agents who is seeking to get the whole world under his control. First by undermining the faith of church members and keeping them from getting a firm hold on Christ, and then inflicting severe persecution to get them to renounce what little faith they have.

GL&L quoted;“Clad in the armor of Christ’s righteousness, the church is to enter upon her final conflict. “Fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners” (Song of Solomon 6:10), she is to go forth into all the world, conquering and to conquer. “(Prophets and Kings, p.725)

Yes, Satan will not win.
There will be a remnant that will remain faithful, who will cling to Christ and his honor and commandments, no matter what terrors are imposed upon them.
The Holy Spirit will empower them as they are "forced to bear witness for the truth... called to speak before councils and in courts of justice"

"You have given a very thorough explanation of your belief.
Thank-you."

You're welcome, and what I desire here is not to prove you wrong, or to prove I'm right but to exalt the "truth". And when we see either one's position is unsustainable by the word of God, either by weight of evidence or the clarity of His word, we do well to abandon our ideas and "turn tail" as it were to truth as discovered anew.

This weekend will have some time to respond. Thanks for your time and thoughts as well. Bro. Rob

DED--There is no need to make symbols of things that aren't symbols.
EGW in her statement is not speaking of that destruction as a symbol, but as an example.
Why make symbols of things that aren't used in a symbolic manner?

GSLL-- What we are trying to establish is – who is the Israel of today? I've shown already the clear statement from EGW saying that the “Israel of today” is the SDA church (Test.for the church, vol.9, p.164). Your quotes do not show where the she calls the world, Babylon, Jerusalem or Judah –the Israel of today.

The vision is taking place in “the city”, “Jerusalem”, “Israel” and “Judah"—terms by none of which the world can be called, as they apply exclusively to the people of God, the church—this work of separation is, accordingly, confined strictly to the church. (hold on I'll get to your literal idea in Babylonian times :-)

The Israel of today is NOT the world, it is the SDA church. That's who SOP specifically says is God's Israel today.

We know that the Ezek. 9 vision will occur in the soon to be fulfilled latter day application ("to the letter"). This is verified in several SOP references. The most specific is –

“We are amid the perils of the last days, the time will soon come when the prophecy of Ezekiel 9 will be fulfilled; that prophecy should be carefully studied, for it will be fulfilled to the very letter. Study also the tenth chapter which represents the hand of God as at work to bring perfect method and harmonious working into all the operations of his prepared instrumentalities. The eleventh and twelfth chapters also should receive critical, thoughtful attention. Let these prophecies be studied on your knees before God; unless you take up the stumbling-blocks which by your own perverse spirit you have laid in the way of many who have been connected with you, God will turn His face utterly from you and your associates”( 1888 Materials, p.1303).

So once we know that the vision will be “fulfilled to the very letter” we must understand that vision and EACH and EVERY word and it's meaning. Not one word should be twisted or mis-read or mis-applied. Therefore it is paramount to know who this “Jerusalem”, “Judah”, “Israel”, “city” is.


GL&L-- We need to get back to the basics of understanding a VERY IMPORTANT principal of God's word. We must always study SOP writings and square it with the Bible, not the other way around.

Dedication writes: Yet, the conclusions you have reached are not primarily from the Bible, but by using EGW (and Houteff) are they not?

I am not saying we are Not to use SOP, but to make sure it collaborates the Bible, not vice versa. Each conclusion I've shown is applying this. Hopefully I will get this point across as we go further here.

Ded--A simple reading of Ezekiel shows a prophet speaking to his people (in Judea) who at that time were facing imminent destruction by the Babylonian armies.
GSLL-- This is not correct. If you mean speaking to "his people" as the two tribes of Judah, then this is not what the vision said.

Since at the time of the vision, the house of Judah, the two-tribe kingdom, was in captivity in the land of the Chaldeans, and the house of Israel, the ten-tribe kingdom, was in dispersion among the nations whither it had been carried away and scattered some years before (2 Kings 17:6), there was no possibility of Ezekiel's delivering the message to them. And as it is to both the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Ezek. 9:9), -- the twelve tribes, -- consequently it was prophetic in Ezekiel's time.
  


DEDICATION WRITES: What you are forgetting is that Ezekiel is speaking about the literal temple that Solomon built, and the literal city of Jerusalem, and the literal people living there back in his day. The armies of Babylon were about to come level the city, many thousands would be killed, and the rest taken captive. Of course he is clearly speaking of Jerusalem and Judea, because that is where he was directing his message to.

GSLL--I am not “forgetting”. You appear to be fast and loose with the facts. Further, the vision shows the Lord directing His ANGELS to do the slaughter not to work through human beings to accomplish the destruction which clearly happened in the Babylonian invasion.

Here are important questions for you –
1)Where in SOP do you get the reference and your belief that Ezekiel 9 was fulfilled in the Babylonian invasion of 587 bc(Solomons temple destroyed)? Show me the quotes to back that up. I believe you cannot support that from Inspiration.

2) Since the Ezekiel vision says that all the wicked are destroyed , how could that possibly be said of Jerusalem in the Babylonian invasion you apply to Ezek. 9? Further how could the “Man in linen” literally go through the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the sighing and crying ones?

3) How can you drop of the specific part of the vision that says the Lord directs His ANGELS from the “upper gate which faces the north (heaven) to do the slaughter? Are you not juxtaposing real humans (Babylonian warriors) for Angels???

Dedication-- Now you accept EGW's statement that there would be another more terrible fulfilment.
GSLL-- As already shown this application cannot be the literal application. Because of the many facts set forth in the vision which do not come close to applying to the “world”.

Dedication-- Many of the OT prophecies that were primarily directed to the prophets contemporary Israelites also have applications to last day events. However, their applications do not follow a step by step literal replay of the original fulfilment.
GSLL--This is not entirely correct.

“Do not follow a step by step literal replay of the original fulfillment”? How can you say this in regards to Ezek. 9 when EGW says a “literal” and “to the very letter” application will happen? That sounds like a “step by step literal” fulfillment I would say.
GSLL-- GC. P.656 application must therefore be a secondary application of Ezek.9.

Dedication-- The parallels are all there.
Just like the Jewish leaders were the first to fall and receive the wrath of the Babylonian armies in the temple compounds,
So in the final fulfillment the religious leaders will be the first to receive the terrible anger of the people they have deceived.
And the destruction of Jerusalem is an example of the destruction of the whole world in the end.

GSLL--Completely off base are these conclusions. As shown the GC application cannot be the literal fulfillment 'to the letter” because-

1) Ezekiel is commanded “Son, go, get thee unto the HOUSE OF ISRAEL” As shown Ezekiel was in captivity and the 10 tribes were already dispersed among the heathen and never reunited. Therefore HE COULD NOT GO TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. NOR DID HE EVER. Thus in order for it to be “literally fulfilled” and go to His own people (Israel) there must and will be main application to the SDA church.

2)As I mentioned before, we cannot use EGW to supplant the clear words of Scripture. She must accommodate them. So in this case we are only left with the understanding of some type of secondary application in GC p.656. To do otherwise is to destroy the plain meaning of the “very letter” of Ezekiel 9. You can't throw out the terms (City, Jerusalem, Israel, Judah) and say “Oh well they don't mean that” or “those terms means Babylon or world”. Again –Scripture first, EGW second.

3) Remember the Lord said to Ezekiel: “Son of man, I SEND THEE to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me.”..”For thou are NOT SENT to a people of a strange language, BUT TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.” (Ezek. 2:3, 3:5) – This NEVER happened literally in Ezekiel's day as you propose.

4) The churches of Babylon are NOT “the Lord's sanctuary” and the “house of Jacob”. The terms have ALWAYS meant God's remnant people and HIS church. (Again provide specific Scripture or SOP proof to the contrary if you can)

“Study the 9th chapter of Ezekiel. These words will be literally fulfilled; yet the time is passing and the people are asleep. They refuse to humble their souls and be converted. Not a great while longer will the Lord bear with THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUCH GREAT AND IMPORTANT TRUTHS REVEALED TO THEM, but who refuse to bring these truths into their individual experience.” (Letter 106, 1909)

Dedication-- We can always find more truth in scripture. But the man who I think you are referring to as Elijah (V.Houteff) destroys a lot of the truth that was revealed to Ellen White.
Thus I do not consider him a prophet.

GSLL-Perhaps EGW says it better than I could –
“Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment. Yet, when a view of Scripture is presented, many do not ask, Is it true--in harmony with God's word? but, By whom is it advocated? and unless it comes through the very channel that pleases them, they do not accept it. So thoroughly satisfied are they with their own ideas that they will not examine the Scripture evidence with a desire to learn, but refuse to be interested, merely because of their prejudices.
The Lord often works where we least expect Him; He surprises us by revealing His power through instruments of His own choice, while He passes by the men to whom we have looked as those through whom light should come. God desires us to receive the truth upon its own merits--because it is truth.” (Test. To Ministers, p.105-106)

Dedication-- Releasing the four winds are the releasing of the human passions and releasing the restraints put on Satan.

GSLL- Yes, I can agree to this. However the Sunday law is part of this “human restraint” that is “let loose”. Now, going back to our textbook quote, we notice that the “sealing” of the 144,000 is DONE before any releasing is done. This is supported by the exact quote you gave me, did you miss this very important verse?-- Were it not that God has commanded angelic agencies to control the satanic agencies that are seeking to break loose and to destroy, there would be no hope. But the winds are to be held until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads. . . . {HP 96.3}



GL&L wrote: So to summarize the sealing of the 144,000 can only take place BEFORE the Sunday law. The destruction of Ezekiel 9 (same event in vision) likewise must happen before the Sunday law . The church purification is to fit the church for the Loud Cry. A pure house of God where the “called out” ones can come into. Then only can His 'full Spirit” be poured out among His church.

DED-- How can this be, if God's people GOD'S CHURCH must first have the Sunday law test before they are sealed, as we just read?

GSLL-This test is upon the world's people (of which some are God's people)The sinners in "ZION" will have been sifted out by this time (See the numerous quotes I've already shown from Scripture on this)


Quote:
This is the test that the people of God must have before they are sealed. All who proved their loyalty to God by observing His law, and refusing to accept a spurious sabbath, will rank under the banner of the Lord God Jehovah, and will receive the seal of the living God. Those who yield the truth of heavenly origin and accept the Sunday sabbath, will receive the mark of the beast (Letter 11, 1890).


And how could this quote be true if all apostate church members are dead before the test even comes?

GSLL--It's true because those in the world is who she is addressing as “the people of God” in these quotes. We know clearly that EGW addresses the fact that many who are in the Sunday churches are infact to be the “people of God”. This does not address the “Israel of Today” as per EGW, Test. Vol. 9, p.164. God's remnant and “the people of God” are two different people. You can't lump them all together.

An Example of our previous "Church purification" beliefs--

He "shall suddenly come to His temple [the church or 'floor'],...but who may abide the day of His coming?  and who shall stand when He  appeareth?  for He is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' sope: And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the  sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver,  that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in  righteousness." Mal. 3:1-3.
Tract 4                            36
   In explanation of this scripture, the denominational publication (published and owned by the denomination as well as endorsed and used by the Sabbath School  Department throughout the world in 1929), Isaiah,  the Gospel Prophet, Vol. 3, p. 49, says: "Verse  20. [Isa. 59.] 'The Redeemer shall come to Zion.'  This is not the coming in the clouds, but coming to the church.  And when He comes, He will do the work mentioned in Malachi 3:1-3."
   This official exposition of the text shows that in 1929 the denomination taught that the prophecy of Malachi 3, promising a thorough work of purification, is a message to the church.

How the church has changed and not for the better I dare say. Our church once agreed that the Scriptures teach of a literal purification but sadly the “modernist” element has taken hold.

So basically you are saying
"Israel" is the SDA church
but
"the people of God" are the world??????

You wrote:
The Israel of today is NOT the world, it is the SDA church. That's who SOP specifically says is God's Israel today.

... those in the world is who she is addressing as “the people of God” in these quotes. We know clearly that EGW addresses the fact that many who are in the Sunday churches are infact to be the “people of God”. This does not address the “Israel of Today” as per EGW, Test. Vol. 9, p.164. God's remnant and “the people of God” are two different people. You can't lump them all together.

This isn't making any sense at all --
Not according to scripture or according to EGW.

First of all ISRAEL is NOT the SDA church.

Hopefully Seventh-day Adventist members are part of Israel.

The NT Israel according to scripture are THE PEOPLE OF CHRIST (the people of God).



Who is Israel -- all who have genuinely accepted Christ.
And yes, many who are in the Sunday churches have genuinely accepted Christ. So they are ISRAEL as are Seventh-day Adventists who have genuinely accepted Christ.

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APOSTATE ADVENTISTS VERY MUCH ALIVE DURING SUNDAY LAW CRISES

Secondly --
The test (Sunday vs Saturday) obviously affects Sabbath keepers, (ie Seventh-day Adventists)
And those large numbers of apostates, that EGW writes about were obviously Seventh-day Adventists before the Sunday laws were enforced, and after the sunday laws they are very much ALIVE and become the most effective antagonists against their former "brethren".



************

THE FACTS CONCERNING LITERAL JERUSALEM IN EZEKIEL'S TIME

You say I am "loose with the facts".
But you wrote:
Since at the time of the vision, the house of Judah, the two-tribe kingdom, was in captivity in the land of the Chaldeans, and the house of Israel, the ten-tribe kingdom, was in dispersion among the nations whither it had been carried away and scattered some years before (2 Kings 17:6), there was no possibility of Ezekiel's delivering the message to them. And as it is to both the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Ezek. 9:9), -- the twelve tribes, -- consequently it was prophetic in Ezekiel's time.

That is not correct. True the northern kingdom had been destroyed by the Assyrians earlier. But Jerusalem was still standing, the temple was still standing.
The descendants of Judah, Benjamin and Levi were Israelites.

There were three invasions by the Babylonians on Jerusalem.
1) The first invasion was in 607 B.C., at which time a number of the people from the upper class families were taken captive, including Daniel and his friends 2 K.24:1, Jer.25:1, Dan.1:1-7.
(2) The second invasion was 597 B.C., at which time the young king Jehoiachin and 10,000 of the people were carried into captivity. Among these were Ezekiel and one of the ancestors of Mordicai, the cousin of Esther, 2 K.24:10-16; Eze.1:1-2; Est.2:5-6.
(3)The third invasion, and this time full scale siege and war, took place in 587 B.C. Jerusalem was conquered and its walls and palaces as well as the temple were destroyed; thousands perished and most of the rest carried away into exile, 2 K.24:18; 24:1-27; 2 Chron.36:11-21; Jer.52:1-11.

Ezekiel's vision took place between the second and third invasion. In Jerusalem, Zedekiah was king. Nebuchadnezzar allowed Zedekiah to take the throne under the condition that he not rebel against him. Zedekiah reigned in Jerusalem eleven years. During this time Jeremiah, in Jerusalem was urging king Zedekiah NOT to rebel against Babylon. (Jer. 27:11-12)

A false prophet, Hananiah, was predicting that in two years God would restore everything. Jehoiachin and all the other captives would be liberated and the yoke of Babylon would be broken. (Jeremiah 28)

And yes, this is the time of Ezekiel's vision.
His vision took place
In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity.(Ezekiel 1:2)

Thus Jerusalem would not be destroyed for another six years after his vision. And yes, Ezekiel was prophesying it's destruction.
In great detail he reveals the sins. The removal of the shekinah glory from the temple..
Chapter four he does a visual representation of the siege of Jerusalem and its coming destruction.

Interestingly, the people in Jerusalem were saying, God gave us the land, and he removed the trouble makers into exile, we are the inheritors of God's blessings and possessors of the land. But Ezekiel declares God's messages to them -- it's actually those in exile that are being preserved, and God would give them the land. (Ezekiel 11:14-21)

These are the facts --
Ezekiel's original message was to his people.
That message has another fulfilment in the last days.

YOUR QUESTIONS

1)1)Where in SOP do you get the reference and your belief that Ezekiel 9 was fulfilled in the Babylonian invasion of 587 bc(Solomons temple destroyed)?

see answers above. But here are quotes as well:





2)Further how could the “Man in linen” literally go through the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the sighing and crying ones?

The same way the seal of God is put on God's people in the time of the end. It's not a literal mark painted on people's foreheads.

The problem is that Houteff makes symbols literal, instead of recognizing that symbols remain symbolic but represent something literal.


3) How can you drop of the specific part of the vision that says the Lord directs His ANGELS from the “upper gate which faces the north (heaven) to do the slaughter? Are you not juxtaposing real humans (Babylonian warriors) for Angels???

Are the three angels' messages proclaimed by three literal angels flying in the heavens, or do they represent people?

"And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar.

Seems to be saying that these are men.
"Angels" in that they are messengers of Gods' wrath, but men none the less. Even the "man in linen" is pictured as a man, Christ in His human form as priest, seeking to save all who are true.

The north --
Most of Israel's enemies descended from the north.
Jerusalem was besieged for a year and half, reducing the people to horrible hunger before they breached the wall.

They came from the way of the higher gate, this is the eastern gate called the higher or upper gate, because it was above the court of the Israelites. see 2 Kings 15:35;

This gate is toward the north: where were the image of jealousy, and the women weeping for Tammuz, and other idolatrous practices were committed. There they entered every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; as ordered. (Soldiers)

According to the Talmud, Nebuchadnezzar specifically had the members of the Great and Small Sanhedrins killed, for these had largely filled king Zedekiah's mind with ambitions to rebel. The slaughter of the inhabitants of Jerusalem was huge. While some were taken captive,the temple was pillaged and finally was set on fire and utterly destroyed.

Got your response , will as usual give attention to it this weekend and respond.

Ded-- First of all ISRAEL is NOT the SDA church

GSLL- “In order to be purified and to remain pure, Seventh-day Adventists must have the Holy Spirit in their hearts and in their homes. The Lord has given me light that when the Israel of today humble themselves before Him, and cleanse the soul-temple from all defilement, He will hear their prayers in behalf of the sick and will bless in the use of His remedies for disease. (Testimonies. Vol. 9, p.164)

In EGW's Testimonies for the Church volume 5, p. 80 we read – “God will have a people pure and true in the mighty sifting soon to take place we shall be better able to measure the STRENGTH OF ISRAEL. The signs reveal that the time is near when the Lord will manifest that His fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor.”

Again we see that she is directly speaking to and labeling the SDA church--Israel. In fact in that last reference, if you read a few paragraphs before( and in clear context) she mentions “Many of OUR people are lukewarm” and then goes on to mention us as Israel.

SDA = Israel of Today.

Ded --Hopefully Seventh-day Adventist members are part of Israel.

GSLL- There is no “hopefully” about it. Unless of course we blindly ignore the above plain statements. Are there sinners in the midst? Of course. That is why Ezekiel 9 needs to occur—church purification (will expand more in a bit).


Ded--The NT Israel according to scripture are THE PEOPLE OF CHRIST (the people of God). 

Originally Posted By: scripture
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." Galatians 3:16 

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:27-29

GSLL-- Those quotes are true, however there must and always has been a distinction as a “body of” God's people—a church in other words.

When our SDA church came into existence it “separated” from the other churches, why? Because we became the “repairer of the breach” (repairing the trampling upon His Commandments—specifically the Sabbath) a separate people to proclaim the 3 angels message and the KEEP the Commandments of God—unlike the other so-called “Christian” churches. SDA church is His remnant church. Baptist's are not, Methodist's are not, Jehovah Witnesses are not, etc.

Yes, there may be found people within those churches who know the Lord but as a 'body” that cannot be referred as, “The Israel of today”.

So this is why EGW calls us and not the world—Israel. She recognized that there was people in the other churches that knew Christ (didn't have all the light yet) but as a church body they were very wrong in their practices. Hence He was calling out “His” people to proclaim HIS message today.
This all points out to conclusive evidence that God had to establish a “people” from among the other so called Christian churches.

So again, the “Israel of today” is the SDA remnant church.

SDA fundamental belief no.12--
The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This remnant announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness" 

Just as the world had believers that knew God back in the OT days, God still had ONE church then and He has one now.




************* 


Ded--APOSTATE ADVENTISTS VERY MUCH ALIVE DURING SUNDAY LAW CRISES

Secondly --
The test (Sunday vs Saturday) obviously affects Sabbath keepers, (ie Seventh-day Adventists) 
And those large numbers of apostates, that EGW writes about were obviously Seventh-day Adventists before the Sunday laws were enforced, and after the sunday laws they are very much ALIVE and become the most effective antagonists against their former "brethren". 

Originally Posted By: EGW
As the defenders of truth refuse to honor the Sunday-sabbath, some of them will be thrust into prison, some will be exiled, some will be treated as slaves....a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth,abandon their position, and join the ranks of the opposition. By uniting with the world and partaking of its spirit, they have come to view matters in nearly the same light; and when the test is brought, they are prepared to choose the easy, popular side. Men of talent and pleasing address, whoonce rejoiced in the truth, employ their powers to deceive and mislead souls. They become the most bitter enemies of their former brethren.When Sabbath-keepers are brought before the courts to answer for their faith, these apostates are the most efficient agents of Satan to misrepresent and accuse them, and by false reports and insinuations to stir up the rulers against them. {GC88 608.1}

GSLL-- This was addressed already in the Ezekiel 9 forum.
************

Ded- THE FACTS CONCERNING LITERAL JERUSALEM IN EZEKIEL'S TIME 

You say I am "loose with the facts".
But you wrote:

GSLL- Since at the time of the vision, the house of Judah, the two-tribe kingdom, was in captivity in the land of the Chaldeans, and the house of Israel, the ten-tribe kingdom, was in dispersion among the nations whither it had been carried away and scattered some years before (2 Kings 17:6), there was no possibility of Ezekiel's delivering the message to them. And as it is to both the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Ezek. 9:9), -- the twelve tribes, -- consequently it was prophetic in Ezekiel's time.

Ded--That is not correct. True the northern kingdom had been destroyed by the Assyrians earlier. But Jerusalem was still standing, the temple was still standing. 
The descendants of Judah, Benjamin and Levi were Israelites.

There were three invasions by the Babylonians on Jerusalem.
1) The first invasion was in 607 B.C., at which time a number of the people from the upper class families were taken captive, including Daniel and his friends 2 K.24:1, Jer.25:1, Dan.1:1-7. 
(2) The second invasion was 597 B.C., at which time the young king Jehoiachin and 10,000 of the people were carried into captivity. Among these were Ezekiel and one of the ancestors of Mordicai, the cousin of Esther, 2 K.24:10-16; Eze.1:1-2; Est.2:5-6. 
(3)The third invasion, and this time full scale siege and war, took place in 587 B.C. Jerusalem was conquered and its walls and palaces as well as the temple were destroyed; thousands perished and most of the rest carried away into exile, 2 K.24:18; 24:1-27; 2 Chron.36:11-21; Jer.52:1-11.

Ezekiel's vision took place between the second and third invasion. In Jerusalem, Zedekiah was king. Nebuchadnezzar allowed Zedekiah to take the throne under the condition that he not rebel against him. Zedekiah reigned in Jerusalem eleven years. During this time Jeremiah, in Jerusalem was urging king Zedekiah NOT to rebel against Babylon. (Jer. 27:11-12) 

GSLL- This is not addressing the main point. Take a good look at the above statement. Notice my underlined point. As the 10 tribes had been lost several years prior to Ezekiel's vision there is NO WAY the Ezek. 9 vision could be given to the “house of Israel”--12 tribes. ONLY the house of Judah could have be receivers of his message.

Ezek.9:9-- “..The iniquity of THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL and JUDAH is exceedingly great,..” The vision calls for the LORD to go through BOTH the house of Israel and Judah (12 tribes). The babylonian slaughter occurred upon the house of Judah.

Yes, the house of Judah is OF the house of Israel, but it is not— the house of Israel. Big difference. We know that the northern 10 tribes are the house of Israel and the southern 2 tribes were the house of Judah.

So once we know that the vision will be “fulfilled to the very letter” we must understand that vision and EACH and EVERY word and it's meaning. Not one word should be twisted or mis-read or mis-applied. Therefore it is paramount to know who this “house of Israel and Judah”, is.


Ded- YOUR QUESTIONS

GSLL--1)Where in SOP do you get the reference and your belief that Ezekiel 9 was fulfilled in the Babylonian invasion of 587 bc(Solomons temple destroyed)? 

"While Jeremiah continued to bear his testimony in the land of Judah, the prophet Ezekiel was raised up from among the captives in Babylon, to warn and to comfort the exiles, and also to confirm the word of the Lord that was being spoken through Jeremiah. During the years that remained of Zedekiah's reign, Ezekiel made very plain the folly of trusting to the false predictions of those who were causing the captives to hope for an early return to Jerusalem. He was also instructed to foretell, by means of a variety of symbols and solemn messages, the siege and utter destruction of Jerusalem." {PK 448.1} 

"In the sixth year of the reign of Zedekiah, the Lord revealed to Ezekiel in vision some of the abominations that were being practiced in Jerusalem, and within the gate of the Lord's house, and even in the inner court. The chambers of images, and the pictured idols, "every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel"--all these in rapid succession passed before the astonished gaze of the prophet. Ezekiel 8:10." {PK 448.2} 

"Those who should have been spiritual leaders among the people, "the ancients of the house of Israel," to the number of seventy, were seen offering incense before the idolatrous representations that had been introduced into hidden chambers within the sacred precincts of the temple court. "The Lord seeth us not," the men of Judah flattered themselves as they engaged in their heathenish practices; "the Lord hath forsaken the earth," they blasphemously declared. Verses 11, 12." {PK 448.3} 
There were still "greater abominations" for the prophet to behold. At a gate leading from the outer to the inner court he was shown "women weeping for Tammuz," and within "the inner court of the Lord's house, . . . at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshiped the sun toward the east." Verses 13-16. {PK 448.4} 
And now the glorious Being who accompanied Ezekiel throughout this astonishing vision of wickedness in high places in the land of Judah, inquired of the prophet: "Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke Me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. Therefore will I also deal in fury: Mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in Mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them." Verses 17, 18. {PK 449.1} 
Through Jeremiah the Lord had declared of the wicked men who presumptuously dared to stand before the people in His name: "Both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in My house have I found their wickedness." Jeremiah 23:11. In the terrible arraignment of Judah as recorded in the closing narrative of the chronicler of Zedekiah's reign, this charge of violating the sanctity of the temple was repeated. "Moreover," the sacred writer declared, "all the chief of the priests, and the people, transgressed very much after all the abominations of the heathen; and polluted the house of the Lord which He had hallowed in Jerusalem." 2 Chronicles 36:14. 
{PK 449.2} 
The day of doom for the kingdom of Judah was fast approaching. No longer could the Lord set before them the hope of averting the severest of His judgments. "Should ye be utterly unpunished?" He inquired. "Ye shall not be unpunished." Jeremiah 25:29. {PK 450.1} 
Even these words were received with mocking derision. "The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth," declared the impenitent. But through Ezekiel this denial of the sure word of prophecy was sternly rebuked. "Tell them," the Lord declared, "I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision. For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel. For I am the Lord: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord God. {PK 450.2} 
"Again," testifies Ezekiel, "the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off. Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; There shall none of My words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord God." Ezekiel 12:22-28. {PK 450.3} 
Foremost among those who were rapidly leading the nation to ruin was Zedekiah their king. Forsaking utterly the counsels of the Lord as given through the prophets, forgetting the debt of gratitude he owed Nebuchadnezzar, 
violating his solemn oath of allegiance taken in the name of the Lord God of Israel, Judah's king rebelled against the prophets, against his benefactor, and against his God. In the vanity of his own wisdom he turned for help to the ancient enemy of Israel's prosperity, "sending his ambassadors into Egypt, that they might give him horses and much people." {PK
450.4}

GSLL-I have no problem with the quotes given (PK p. 448-450) However if we pay close attention she does not mention anywhere of Ezekiel 9. She goes into Ezek. 8, yes, but that isn't the reference I asked for. Do you have any quotes giving the ref. of Ezekiel 9 to the Babylonian invasion of 587 bc.?

Of course the prophets had real time messages to give the people, and these quotes I believe were truth spoken HOWEVER no where does she reference the specific quotes from chapter 9 of Ezekiel.

Now, we can ask why not? It's because she, being led by Inspiration was not to mention it as she would do so later in other writings. And ofcourse we know the verses (MR, vol. 1, p.260 and 1888 Materials, p.1363 and elsewhere).

To play the devil's advocate, even if she was meaning those quotes pertaining to Ezekiel 9, she would be incorrect because she states the warning Ezekiel was to give was the “day of doom” to come on the "kingdom of Judah".

GSLL- Can you address this question? ( this was skipped)
2) Since the Ezekiel vision says that all the wicked are destroyed , how could that possibly be said of Jerusalem in the Babylonian invasion you apply to Ezek. 9?

GSLL- 2)Further how could the “Man in linen” literally go through the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the sighing and crying ones?

Ded-The same way the seal of God is put on God's people in the time of the end. It's not a literal mark painted on people's foreheads.

The problem is that Houteff makes symbols literal, instead of recognizing that symbols remain symbolic but represent something literal. 

GSLL-Houteff never taught that the vision was anything other than what SOP taught-- to be ”fulfilled to the very letter”.

GSLL-- --3) How can you drop of the specific part of the vision that says the Lord directs His ANGELS from the “upper gate which faces the north (heaven) to do the slaughter? Are you not juxtaposing real humans (Babylonian warriors) for Angels???

Ded--Are the three angels' messages proclaimed by three literal angels flying in the heavens, or do they represent people?

GSLL- I find this analogy not accurate. We can't compare the 3 angels messages with the “literally fulfilled to the letter” Ezek. 9. And to be frank, you are juxtaposing humans for angels as shown below.

“ Angels keep a faithful record of every man's work, and as judgment passes upon the house of God, the sentence of each is recorded by his name, and the angel is commissioned to spare not the unfaithful servants, but to cut them down at the time of slaughter. And that which was committed to their trust is taken from them.  (Test. For the Church, vol. 1, p.198)

Dedication --"And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar."

Seems to be saying that these are men.
"Angels" in that they are messengers of Gods' wrath, but men none the less. Even the "man in linen" is pictured as a man, Christ in His human form as priest, seeking to save all who are true.

The north --
Most of Israel's enemies descended from the north.
Jerusalem was besieged for a year and half, reducing the people to horrible hunger before they breached the wall.

They came from the way of the higher gate, this is the eastern gate called the higher or upper gate, because it was above the court of the Israelites. see 2 Kings 15:35; 

This gate is toward the north: where were the image of jealousy, and the women weeping for Tammuz, and other idolatrous practices were committed. There they entered every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; as ordered. (Soldiers)

GSLL--“Today as in the past, some will be led to form new theories and to deny the truths upon which the Spirit of God has placed His approval.” {1SAT 386.2} [/i]

The illuminating quote below effectively corrects your false assumptions.

“He who presides over His church and the destinies of nations is carrying forward the last work to be accomplished for this world. To His angels He gives the commission to execute His judgments. Let the ministers awake, let them take in the situation. The work of judgment begins at the sanctuary. "And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar." Read Ezekiel 9:2-7. (Testimonies to Minsters, p.431)

What is the seal of the living God, which is placed in the foreheads of His people? It is a mark which angels, but not human eyes, can read; for the destroying angel must see this mark of redemption (Letter 126, 1898).”4BC 1161.4

One thing to point out is that an angel can be addressed as a “man” in Scripture.

“So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. “ (Gen.32:24)

 "And I heard the voice of a man between the banks of Ulai, and he called out and said, “Gabriel, give this man an understanding of the vision." (Dan. 8:16)

"while I was still speaking in prayer, then the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering." (Dan. 9:21)

- while I appreciate your thoughts on the interpretations you present , as shown you must come over to the truth on your false assumptions. Men in this vision are clearly angels. Therefore the Babylonian application cannot be a true application unless, as I said we are “fast and loose” with the facts.

Both EGW and Houteff taught that the work of slaughter in Ezek. 9 is done by ANGELS of God NOT humans (man).


Lastly, here are some Scriptures and
EGW quotes showing a literal church purification:

The Lord will work to purify His church. I tell you in truth, the Lord is about to turn and overturn in the institutions called by His name. Just how soon this refining process will begin I cannot say, but it will not be long deferred. He whose fan is in His hand will cleanse His temple of its moral defilement. He will thoroughly purge His floor.--Lt 4, 1895. {PM 170.2}

“Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. “ (Isaiah 52:1)

"God has not changed toward His faithful servants who are keeping their garments spotless. But many are crying, "Peace and Safety," while sudden destruction is coming upon them..When purification shall take place in our ranks, we shall no longer rest at ease, boasting of being
rich and increased with goods, in need of nothing." (Testimonies, vol. 8, p.250)

“ Our Lord has His fan in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor. In the coming day He will discern "between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not." {5T 227.2}

“Ezekiel 9:3-6. Notice particularly [that] the sighing and crying ones are alone marked. Those who have engaged in afflicting their souls before God are especially remembered of Him, and the angel is bidden to place a mark upon them.” (MR, vol. 18, p.370)

And what and where is this crying and sighing she mentions about?
She answers-- “. Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the church.” (Test. For the Church, vol. 3, p.267)


Counsel –

“ We may lose the footsteps of God and follow our own bewilderment, and say, “Thy judgments are not known; but if the heart is loyal to God everything will be made plain.” (test. To Ministers, p.432)



those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit, Christ's lessons appear complete in their harmony with His mission of love. Those who are partakers of the divine nature, will be melted into tenderness when the Spirit sends conviction of sin. They will see the great work that must be done for the soul before it is prepared to dwell in the presence of God. They will not be too self-sufficient to receive correction.”(ST, May 15, 1901)

Israel, according to scripture are those who are in Christ and walking in His paths of righteousness. There is no problem with EGW referring to Sabbath keeping Christians as Israel.
But the quote does not say the Seventh-day Adventist CHURCH is Israel.

In fact it implies the opposite. Israel are the "true worshippers" while a great many who are not "true worshippers" have come in to "to prove a scourge to our people".

Also notice a couple paragraphs further down HOW the church will be purified. (in the same context)



The NT Israel according to scripture are THE PEOPLE OF CHRIST (the people of God). 

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:27-29

GSLL-- Those quotes are true, however there must and always has been a distinction as a “body of” God's people—a church in other words.

Where does it say the CHURCH is Israel.
True, God called out a people, the Seventh-day Adventists to be His messengers to proclaim the three angels messages, but does that limit the word ISRAEL to them.
True Israel will also keep all 10 of Gods commandments, including the 4th.

But that does not make the institutional church Israel, it simply means people who genuinely accepted Christ and keep His commandments are true Israel.






APOSTATE ADVENTISTS VERY MUCH ALIVE DURING SUNDAY LAW CRISES

The test (Sunday vs Saturday) obviously affects Sabbath keepers, (ie Seventh-day Adventists) and no you have not explained it, only tried to rationalize the clear statements away.
 
For those apostates, that EGW writes about were obviously Seventh-day Adventists, professing belief in the third angels message, before the Sunday laws were enforced,
WHEN the test comes they LEAVE
and after the sunday laws they are very much ALIVE and become the most effective antagonists against their former "brethren". 





GSLL- “house of Israel”--12 tribes. ONLY the house of Judah could have been receivers of his message.

But the text doesn't say the message was given to the House of Israel.




Its clearly saying the disaster fell on the CITY of Jerusalem, on the residue of the house of Israel.

They had been spared when the 10 tribes fell but had not learned anything from that but followed in her evil ways. Jeremiah 3 explains it -- the destruction of the residue (what was left) of Israel was the result of the accumulated sins of Israel of both houses.


GLL wrote: So once we know that the vision will be “fulfilled to the very letter” we must understand that vision and EACH and EVERY word and it's meaning. Not one word should be twisted or mis-read or mis-applied. Therefore it is paramount to know who this “house of Israel and Judah”, is.

Right -- and now we KNOW that Ezekiel nine is about the city of Jerusalem and RESIDUE of Israel.

Not on the ten tribes that had already been conquered.


GSLL-I have no problem with the quotes given (PK p. 448-450) However if we pay close attention she does not mention anywhere of Ezekiel 9. She goes into Ezek. 8, yes, but that isn't the reference I asked for. Do you have any quotes giving the ref. of Ezekiel 9 to the Babylonian invasion of 587 bc.?

She quotes quite a few verses from Ezekiel (8 and 12) in her description of the fall of Jerusalem. Just because she does not quote every verse does not mean Ezekiel 9 isn't included. After all Ezekiel 9 itself specifically mentions the destruction of the city of Jerusalem.



GLL wrote; To play the devil's advocate, even if she was meaning those quotes pertaining to Ezekiel 9, she would be incorrect because she states the warning Ezekiel was to give was the “day of doom” to come on the "kingdom of Judah".

But Ezekiel 9 itself says it was to fall upon the city of Jerusalem -- the RESIDUE of the house of Israel, which of course was the southern kingdom of Judah (Judah, Benjamin, Levi)
-- I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem? 9:8


GSLL- Can you address this question? ( this was skipped)
2) Since the Ezekiel vision says that all the wicked are destroyed , how could that possibly be said of Jerusalem in the Babylonian invasion you apply to Ezek. 9?

Where does it say all the wicked are destroyed. When they are can only project into the situation at Christs second coming, for that is the only time when all living wicked will die.

Not all wicked died in Ezekiels time, and most certainly all wicked will not die before probation closes or even before Christs second coming.




The problem is that Houteff makes symbols literal, instead of recognizing that symbols remain symbolic but represent something literal. 

GSLL-Houteff never taught that the vision was anything other than what SOP taught-- to be ”fulfilled to the very letter”.

The VERY letter is talking about a city called Jerusalem, with gates and a sanctuary with a court around it. It is talking about a man carrying an inkhorn and placing a mark on people. It is talking about six men with weapons, -- there is nothing about six angels in chapter nine.




GSLL-- --3) How can you drop of the specific part of the vision that says the Lord directs His ANGELS from the “upper gate which faces the north (heaven) to do the slaughter? Are you not juxtaposing real humans (Babylonian warriors) for Angels???

It says nothing in the vision of six ANGELS from the upper gate in Ezekiels vision. It says six men.

You are probably referring to TM 431-432, but EGW isn't specifically saying that the six men are angels, she quotes Ezekiel 9 in connection with the angels pouring out the vials of the plagues.



GSLL- I find this analogy not accurate. We can't compare the 3 angels (flying in the midst of heaven) giving the messages with the “literally fulfilled to the letter” Ezek. 9. And to be frank, you are juxtaposing humans for angels as shown below.

“ Angels keep a faithful record of every man's work, and as judgment passes upon the house of God, the sentence of each is recorded by his name, and the angel is commissioned to spare not the unfaithful servants, but to cut them down at the time of slaughter. And that which was committed to their trust is taken from them.  (Test. For the Church, vol. 1, p.198)

But when IS that time
The same writer tells us when that time is -- during the seventh plague see GC 656



GLL quotes “He who presides over His church and the destinies of nations is carrying forward the last work to be accomplished for this world. To His angels He gives the commission to execute His judgments. Let the ministers awake, let them take in the situation. The work of judgment begins at the sanctuary. "And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar." Read Ezekiel 9:2-7. (Testimonies to Minsters, p.431)

Dedication quotes the next paragraph:
As I mentioned earlier she says the future fulfilment is connected to the last plagues.


The purification of the church will take place --
The church will be sifted by trials when it is no longer popular to be a Sabbath keeping Christian.

I could quote a multitude of passages of trials refining and sifting but its time to quite.
Those who are not in earnest in their commitment to Christ and truth will LEAVE (they may take whole institutions and congregations and church buildings with them) they will renounce the Sabbath etc, etc, it will appear that the original Seventh-day Adventist church is collapsing.

Few men in leadership now will be still leading then, they will go renouncing the truth.
But the faithful will rally, the church will remain a purified church upon which the Holy Spirit falls and they witness mightily for Him in spite of severe oppression.

In fact it is the oppression that makes their witness front page news all over the world, and the message will bring the whole world to decision.

But the oppressors will do their utmost to stop it.
The plagues only infuriate them more.
But in the end God reveals Himself and His down trodden law. Delivering His people. THEN Ezekiel 9 will be fulfilled with a vengeance and it wont be angels, it will be people in agony wrecking vengeance upon those who deceived them.

Once again, will review and comment this weekend (seems the only time I got now days :-)

DED- Israel, according to scripture are those who are in Christ and walking in His paths of righteousness. There is no problem with EGW referring to Sabbath keeping Christians as Israel.
But the quote does not say the Seventh-day Adventist CHURCH is Israel.

In fact it implies the opposite. Israel are the "true worshippers" while a great many who are not "true worshippers" have come in to "to prove a scourge to our people".

GSLL- “In these days He has instituted no new plan to preserve the purity of His people. As of old, He entreats the erring ones who profess His name to repent and turn from their evil ways. Now, as then, by the mouth of His chosen servants He predicts the dangers before them. He sounds the note of warning and reproves sin just as faithfully as in the days of Jeremiah. But the Israel of our time have the same temptations to scorn reproof and hate counsel as had ancient Israel. They too often turn a deaf ear to the words that God has given His servants for the benefit of those who profess the truth. Though the Lord in mercy withholds for a time the retribution of their sin, as in the days of Jeremiah, He will not always stay His hand, but will visit iniquity with righteous judgment.”(Testimonies, vol. 4, p.165)

SDA people = Israel of our time (today). Also note that the context is that she is talking to us—Seventh Day Adventists.Check it yourself.

“In the days of Samuel, Israel thought that the presence of the ark containing the commandments of God would gain them the victory over the Philistines, whether or not they repented of their wicked works. Just so, in Jeremiah's time, the Jews believed that the strict observance of the divinely appointed services of the temple would preserve them from the just punishment of their evil course.

The same danger exists today among the people who profess to be the depositaries of God's law. They are too apt to flatter themselves that the regard in which they hold the commandments will preserve them from the power of divine justice. They refuse to be reproved for evil, and charge God's servants with being too zealous in putting sin out of the camp.
A sin-hating God calls upon those who profess to keep His law to depart from all iniquity. Neglect to repent and obey His word will bring as serious consequences upon God's people today as did the same sin upon ancient Israel.

There is a limit beyond which He will no longer delay His judgments. The desolation of Jerusalem stands as a solemn warning before the eyes of modern Israel, that the corrections given through His chosen instruments cannot be disregarded with impunity.”(Ibid, p.166)

Who is this she is speaking of “depositories of God's law”? Of course it's the SDA people, who are known collectively as the SDA church. Then what does she call us? Modern Israel. The implications are clear, the descriptions are plain.Check the context here as well.

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DED- Quote:
" The time is not far distant when the test will come to every soul. The mark of the beast will be urged upon us. Those who have step by step yielded to worldly demands and conformed to worldly customs will not find it a hard matter to yield to the powers that be, rather than subject themselves to derision, insult, threatened imprisonment, and death. The contest is between the commandments of God and the commandments of men. In this time the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness. {5T 81.1} 

GSLL- Actually found a direct quote from brother Houteff that addresses this--( By the way the SDA doubters sent him over 160 questions which he addressed over 20 years you may want to review as many of your same questions are addressed.
http://www.shepherds-rod.org/answerers/index%20answerer.html

“The SRod does not claim that all those professing to be S.D.A's "who have step by step yielded to worldly demands," will fall under the slaughter weapons of Ezekiel's vision, but rather that every active member who does not receive the "mark" (or seal of Eze. 9), excluding those who have departed from the organized work but who yet claim to be Seventh-day Adventists -- a class at the present time numbering thousands.

   According to Vol. 5, p. 81 some of those who are independent of the organization but still claim to be S.D.A's will not "subject themselves to derision, insult, threatened imprisonment, and death," but will "slide into any position to suit the tenor of their feelings." T.M. 112. (Symb.Code, Vol. 1, no.1, p.5)

I would add that though it was a sizable number back in brother Houteff's day, today, as mentioned with the movements to get out and be separate yet still call themselves SDA ( such as SDA Reformists, etc.) that number is indeed many more thousands.
“The test will come to every soul.” We can only assume the words “every soul” means those alive at that time. Of course this does not preclude a “prior” church purification before this test. There is no doubt the Sunday law will cause a world shaking and the “gold will be separated from the dross in the church.” But this "world" shaking is to FOLLOW the Ezek. 9 church judgment > more on this further down.

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DED- The NT Israel according to scripture are THE PEOPLE OF CHRIST (the people of God). 

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:27-29

GSLL- We have to be careful not to infer an incorrect premise, that just like Tony Palmer said in the infamous video with the pope recently, “we're all one with Christ..” His “Israel of today” cannot be connected and united as a church body with the world's churches! This again, is why He must have a “chosen people”, a “repairer of the breach”, a “holy nation”, a “peculiar people” all of which described “Israel” of old and as we've just read above—describes “Israel of today.” A church who PROFESSES to keep the Commandments of God. Notice the word “professes”, implying that not all within our church are ”doers” but rather “professors” as in some claiming to but not doing it.


So, that quote is true, however there has always been a distinction as a “body of” God's people—a church in other words, and this is true today. That church is the SDA church.

********************

DED-Where does it say the CHURCH is Israel.

GSLL- True, it doesn't say the SDA “Church” is the Israel of today. But anyone who has reasoning powers can see that the Seventh Day Adventists are a people who are known as a “Church body” a church structure by it's very definition. The implication is clear I believe.

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DED- APOSTATE ADVENTISTS VERY MUCH ALIVE DURING SUNDAY LAW CRISES

For those apostates, that EGW writes about were obviously Seventh-day Adventists, professing belief in the third angels message, before the Sunday laws were enforced, 
WHEN the test comes they LEAVE and after the sunday laws they are very much ALIVE and become the most effective antagonists against their former "brethren". 

Quote:
EGW
"As the defenders of truth refuse to honor the Sunday-sabbath, some of them will be thrust into prison, some will be exiled, some will be treated as slaves....a large class who haveprofessed faith in the third angel's message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth,abandon their position, and join the ranks of the opposition. By uniting with the world and partaking of its spirit, they have come to view matters in nearly the same light; and when the test is brought, they are prepared to choose the easy, popular side. Men of talent and pleasing address, who once rejoiced in the truth, employ their powers to deceive and mislead souls. They become the most bitter enemies of their former brethren.When Sabbath-keepers are brought before the courts to answer for their faith, these apostates are the most efficient agents of Satan to misrepresent and accuse them, and by false reports and insinuations to stir up the rulers against them." {GC88 608.1}

GSLL- I do not dispute this statement, however, there is an answer that you are not considering here. Allow me to point it out, statement by statement.

1) “As defenders of the truth refuse to honor the Sunday-sabbath..” These will certainly be the ones called out by the 144,000. Page 603 clearly shows that people are being told to 'come out of her My people”. So in context we see that the “defenders” are the ones who decide to take the stand with the Sabbath keepers and come out of the Sunday churches.

2) “A large class who have professed faith in the Third angel's message..abandon their position and join ranks of the opposition.”

As mentioned already there are literally many, many thousands (Reform movement, stay at home SDA (non-active members), etc. who have not been “obedient” (remaining within the church as SOP admonishes us) and as such will have no problem “abandoning their position” as Sabbath keeping Adventists. Right now many of these are SDA in name only, either removed from or dormat on the books. Remember the position of the Srod as stated above.”excluding those who have departed from the organized work but who yet claim to be Seventh-day Adventists..”

3) “when the test is brought, they are prepared to choose the easy way.” Of course these described SDA (in name only) will have no problem. And as stated be able to accuse their old brethren as they know well the doctrines and beliefs.

*******************

GSLL- “house of Israel”--12 tribes. ONLY the house of Judah could have been receivers of his message.

DED- But the text doesn't say the message was given to the House of Israel.
Quote:
9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city. 
9:8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem? 
9:9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah [is] exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not. 



DED- Its clearly saying the disaster fell on the CITY of Jerusalem, on the residue of the house of Israel. 

GSLL- Although I could spend time with this, this point is now mute as we show how your applying Ezek. 9 to the invasion cannot be supported by the facts.

********************

GLL wrote: So once we know that the vision will be “fulfilled to the very letter” we must understand that vision and EACH and EVERY word and it's meaning. Not one word should be twisted or mis-read or mis-applied. Therefore it is paramount to know who this “house of Israel and Judah”, is.

DED- Right -- and now we KNOW that Ezekiel nine is about the city of Jerusalem and RESIDUE of Israel.

GSLL- Some problems with that statement. First EGW said “WILL BE FULFILLED TO THE VERY LETTER.” You are ignoring this plain declaration. Instead you are claiming “will be” means “had been” by inferring that the quote has it's first and primal application in the Babylon invasion. Therefore you attempt to throw in the “past” events and make them substitute for her “will be” application. More addressed
below.

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GSLL-I have no problem with the quotes given (PK p. 448-450) However if we pay close attention she does not mention anywhere of Ezekiel 9. She goes into Ezek. 8, yes, but that isn't the reference I asked for. Do you have any quotes giving the ref. of Ezekiel 9 to the Babylonian invasion of 587 bc.?

DED- She quotes quite a few verses from Ezekiel (8 and 12) in her description of the fall of Jerusalem. Just because she does not quote every verse does not mean Ezekiel 9 isn't included. After all Ezekiel 9 itself specifically mentions the destruction of the city of Jerusalem.

GSLL- This is nothing more than “private interpretation” See
(2 Peter 1:20). Private interjection is just that—private. Ezekiel 9 is NOT referenced in the quotes you gave and therefore we must remain steadfast that EGW NEVER gives Ezekiel 9 as reference to the Babylon invasion.Her quote about Ezekiel 8 goes into "why" they were deserving of His wrath but not "how" He executes it.

GSLL-Again, the “will be” application(s) is future tense so we cannot juxtapose what she says to past events as we cannot provide ANY reference from her pen saying Ezek. 9 was the Babylonian invasion. In hindsight I should have nipped this error in the bud (the past fulfillment of Ezek.9), instead of getting into a dialogue over a false scenario (and unsupported) you have attempted to promote.

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GSLL- Can you address this question? ( this was skipped)
2) Since the Ezekiel vision says that all the wicked are destroyed , how could that possibly be said of Jerusalem in the Babylonian invasion you apply to Ezek. 9?

DED- Where does it say all the wicked are destroyed.

GSLL- In hindsight you are correct here, this question was mis-applied .But we cannot spend our time applying Ezek. 9 to the invasion due to the facts as shown. The future application (s) are what concerns us.

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DED- The VERY letter is talking about a city called Jerusalem, with gates and a sanctuary with a court around it. It is talking about a man carrying an inkhorn and placing a mark on people. It is talking about six men with weapons, -- there is nothing about six angels in chapter nine.

GSLL-- At the risk of being redundant, again you are supposing that she was quoting “to the very letter” meaning she was going backwards and the “will be” is describing past events. Nonsensical. Further you say it's about literal six men. Even if we were to believe your story of Ezek. 9 being the Babylonian invasion, there were not just “six men” who destroyed the city. Also there was not a literal man in linen going around marking men to be saved, etc.

******************

GSLL quoted--“ Angels keep a faithful record of every man's work, and as judgment passes upon the house of God, the sentence of each is recorded by his name, and the angel is commissioned to spare not the unfaithful servants, but to cut them down at the time of slaughter. And that which was committed to their trust is taken from them.  (Test. For the Church, vol. 1, p.198)

DED- But when IS that time
The same writer tells us when that time is -- during the seventh plague see GC 656

************************



GLL quotes “He who presides over His church and the destinies of nations is carrying forward the last work to be accomplished for this world. To His angels He gives the commission to execute His judgments. Let the ministers awake, let them take in the situation. The work of judgment begins at the sanctuary. "And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar." Read Ezekiel 9:2-7. (Testimonies to Minsters, p.431)

GSLL- Again, I am really amazed here. Just how do you fail to see that this reference ESTABLISHES the issue?? Notice she first says “To His ANGELS He gives the commission to execute HIS judgments. Then look at what judgments is she talking about? Ezekiel 9! How can you miss this ?? NO “man” has EVER been commissioned to fulfill Ezekiel 9 work past or future.

********************

Dedication quotes the next paragraph:
Quote:
The words will soon be spoken, "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." One of the ministers of vengeance declares. "And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because Thou hast judged thus." {TM 432.1}

DED- As I mentioned earlier she says the future fulfilment is connected to the last plagues.

GSLL--I have already address how this must be a secondary application due to many facts.

********************

“The church may appear as about to fall, but does not. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out—the chaff separated from the wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place.” (2 selected Messages p.380)

“While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven.. there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people on earth. (GC p.425)
Notice the work of purification is not the disobeying or obeying any “laws' but of “putting away of sins”. THIS results in the purification. Scripture explains this-

“And it shall come to pass, that he that is LEFT IN ZION, and he that remainth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is WRITTEN AMONG THE LIVING in Jerusalem. WHEN the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst therof by the spirit of JUDGMENT, and the spirit of burning.” (Isaiah 4:3,4)

GSLL-The above shows why we should clearly understand today's meanings of "Jerusalem" "Israel" "Judah" etc.


In speaking to OUR people the SDA church she says, “The destroying angel is soon to go forth again, not to destroy the first-born alone[as of Egypt] but to slay utterly old and young, both men, women and little children who have not the mark..” (RH, Sept. 19. 1854)(Test. for the Church, vol. 5, p.505)

“..a pure and holy God is “whetting his sword in heaven to cut down” those who do not sigh and cry. “Oh that every lukewarm professor could realize the CLEAN WORK that God is about to make among his professed people.” (Test. For the Church, vol.1, p.190)

Where are the lukewarm people described in the Bible and SOP? The Laodicean church--the SDA church!(Rev. 3, and many SOP quotes) The clean work goes through out our own churches.

No doubt a cleansing is coming are we ready??? Are our garments clean and spotless?

********************

DED- But in the end God reveals Himself and His down trodden law. Delivering His people. THEN Ezekiel 9 will be fulfilled with a vengeance and it wont be angels, it will be people in agony wrecking vengeance upon those who deceived them.


GSLL--You have show absolutely no proof from Scripture or SOP that these”men” will be literal men doing the slaying .Only private interpretations. Angels are commissioned by the LORD to do this work. And my quotes are "BACKED UP"

Counsel--

Oh, why will men be hindrances, when they might be helps? Why will they block the wheels, when they might push with marked success? Why will they rob their own soul of good and deprive others of blessing that might come through them? These rejecters of light will remain barren deserts, where no refreshing, healing waters flow and their ministrations as barren of moisture as were the hill of Gilboa, where there was neither dew nor rain. They are not clothed with divine unction and convey no blessings to others. They might humble their hearts and confess their wrongs, and break Satan's hold upon them.” (Test. To Ministers, p.413)

"The ways of Inspiration are constant, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Questions concerning revealed truth must therefore be answered in the same way today as they were in John’s time. And thus now as then, the critical, the skeptical, and the doubting will find many hooks upon which to hang their doubts. But likewise now as then, the doubters will be taken in their own craftiness." (The Answerer, vol. 1, question 3)

Jumping in to say that dedication is away for a couple of weeks.

Ok brother Daryl, thanks for the update.

One additional point I'd like to make is that in this quote -

“He who presides over His church and the destinies of nations is carrying forward the last work to be accomplished for this world. To His angels He gives the commission to execute His judgments. Let the ministers awake, let them take in the situation. The work of judgment begins at the sanctuary. "And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar." Read Ezekiel 9:2-7." (Testimonies to Minsters, p.431)

It's important to see who she is addressing here. In the prior page it is clear, "I ask again, How can any who have the precious, solemn message for this time indulge in impure thoughts and unholy deeds, when they know that He that never slumbers and never sleeps see every action and reads every thought of the mind? Oh, it is because iniquity is found in God's professed people that He can do so little for them."(Ibid, p.430)

Then the paragraph right before the quote above (p.431) she says. "The triumph of the church is very near, the reward to be bestowed is almost within our reach, and yet iniquity is found among those who claim to have the full blaze of heavens light."

These people are no doubt Seventh Day Adventists.

So obviously when she mentions,"let the ministers awake, and take in the situation." and "The work of judgment begins at the sanctuary." She is no doubt speaking to our SDA church and sanctuary.

Hope you are enjoying your two week vacation and Happy Sabbath.

While we wait for Dedication to return, thought it'd be nice to post something concerning the Elijah prophet--

"Prophecy must be fulfilled..Somebody is to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, and when he appears, men may say: 'You are too earnest, you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way, let me tell you how to teach your message." (Test. to Ministers, p.475)

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." (Mal 4:5)

Let us remember that we as Laodiceans are told by the Lord that we think we are "in need of nothing" (Rev. 3:17)
What is it that the Lord meant by this? TRUTH is needed! He knew we would say, "we have it all, no more truth is needed, no more prophets either."

ONE prophet was promised to come to our church after EGW and before the great and dreadful day. Not a multitude but ONE. Who in our church history was known for many interpretations of the prophecies and caused a church wide uproar(particularly those pertaining the the great and dreadful day of the Lord) and was rejected by the leaders?

Only one man fit that to a tee. I challenge anyone to search our history in this matter and come up with a comparable man.

"Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment. Yet, when a view of Scripture is presented, many do not ask, Is it true--in harmony with God's word? but, By whom is it advocated? and unless it comes through the very channel that pleases them, they do not accept it. So thoroughly satisfied are they with their own ideas that they will not examine Scripture evidence with a desire to learn, but refuse to be interested, merely because of their prejudices." (Test. to Min. p.105)

Basically you are basing your interpretation on the premise that Ezekiel is speaking ONLY to last day events.
In your understanding it seems this prophecy has nothing to do with the situation in Ezekiel's time.



That is NOT a correct interpretation.
It is this denial of the actual setting of Ezekiel's message that has given rise to this fantastic distortion of God's work with His church.



Ezekiel was speaking first to HIS OWN PEOPLE in the times he was living in.
As mentioned previously, Israel (what remained of the tribes) was under tribute to Babylon which had already taken some captives. The people in Jerusalem were hoping for deliverance. Both Ezekiel and Jeremiah were warning them of coming destruction. That is the first interpretation.
To understand the "repeat" one must understand the "original".
Anything else is a distortion.

We must FIRST UNDERSTAND the real literal meaning of the passage.


So lets' look at Ezekiel's writings.



God is sending Ezekiel to the children of Israel, with the entire message. Ezekiel is to literally SPEAK to them, and they will talk back to Ezekiel but he is not to be afraid of them or of their faces.

Now we can't say Ezekiel was sent to literally speak to the Adventist church -- he was sent to his own people.
Even though the northern kingdom was already conquered by Assyria, God is still calling those remaining, the people of ISRAEL.


"I send thee to the children of Israel",




Again God is telling Ezekiel (who is a captive in Babylon) to GO to the house of Israel, (his own people) and SPEAK to them.
He speaks their language, they understand his language, for it is their mother tongue. They are his people.
This is talking about the descendants of Jacob that are alive during Ezekiel's lifetime.



" the prophet Ezekiel was raised up from among the captives in Babylon, to warn and to comfort the exiles, and also to confirm the word of the Lord that was being spoken through Jeremiah. During the years that remained of Zedekiah's reign, (in Jerusalem) Ezekiel made very plain the folly of trusting to the false predictions of those who were causing the captives to hope for an early return to Jerusalem. He was also instructed to foretell, by means of a variety of symbols and solemn messages, the siege and utter destruction of Jerusalem. {PK 448.1}


Notice again that God is referring to the remaining descendants of Jacob as "the house of Israel:.

"He was instructed to foretell, by means of a variety of symbols and solemn messages, the siege and utter destruction of Jerusalem." {PK 448.1}

All the way through -- from chapter 2 onward, Ezekiel is predicting the destruction about to befall Jerusalem and the surrounding cities and He calls them ISRAEL, he calls them ISRAEL all the way through.
There is nothing "mystical" or "symbolical" about them being Israel.

To say -- it can't mean literal Israel because the northern part of Israel was already destroyed is just not accepting the reality of what is being said. Ezekiel 9 doesn't stand alone -- it is a part of the whole message.
To say Ezekiel isn't addressing his people and the situation facing them, because he calls them "the children of Israel" just doesn't make sense.

A person must understand the original fulfilment in order to understand what EGW is saying when she says it will again be fulfilled.

It was NOT angels that killed anyone when Babylon came and destroyed all the cities as well as Jerusalem and the temple. It was the Babylonian army.


"I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall put My sword into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land of Egypt." Ezekiel 29:3, 6; 30:25. {PK 454.1}

God's presence was leaving them.
It's really quite amazing to see God's reluctance as He moves away from His city.



SO HOW DOES THIS TRANSLATE TO THE END TIMES

In the vision of the shaking, (EW 259) we see the church dividing into two groups. As the darkness thickens
1. some, with strong faith and agonizing cries, are pleading with God.
2. Others indifferent and careless. They were not resisting the darkness around them, and it shuts them in like a thick cloud. The angels of God leaves these and went to the aid of the earnest, praying ones.

What happens to the two groups

1. A work of deep repentance and purification takes place in the lives of the first group and they share truth.
2. While the other group will rise up against the testimony. They did not join with those who prized victory and salvation enough to perseveringly plead and agonize for it, so they did not obtain it, and they were left behind in darkness.

There will be a division, a shaking.

1. The first group receives the Holy spirit. and pour forth the pure truth in convicting power.

2. The second plunge deeper into darkness as God's spirit withdraws, they turn against everything they once cherished. They join the ecumenical movement and will become the worst enemies of those who are in group one. They will be the leaders in undermining everything God's people believe. They will be "Canrights" and deceive many. When God reveals Himself on the side of His faithful ones, the "swords" will be in the hands of those who they deceived. The details are in GC 656.

And no -- I do not believe Houteff is a prophet or "spirit of Elijah" -- he points people to look for a kingdom in Palestine, while our belief is that Christ makes us citizens of God's Heavenly city, the New Jerusalem.

He teaches us to look for a pre-second coming kingdom of peace in this present world, while we look for deliverance from this present world in the kingdom of heaven.

It's the ecumenical religions that look to a kingdom in this present world, and from my observation Houteff has come up with a version of an earthly kingdom in Jerusalem, tailored for serious Adventists to fall into the deception that will sweep the world.

Welcome back. As usual, will respond back this weekend.
One quick comment. We are well aware that you haven't read much on what Victor Houteff wrote, most likely bits and pieces, which you base your belief upon.

Of these what have you read?
1)15 tracts (Number 1 to 15)
2)about 100 sermon studies(mostly dealing with Scripture prophecies)
3)Volume 1 and 2 of his original Shepherd's Rod books
4) 5 question and answerer books (over 160 Q and A from dis-believers and believers)
5) 9 "Jezreel Letters" (studies and advice addressed to the SDA leadership)
6)8 Misc. Tracts
7)10 volumes of Symbolic News reports (Scripture studies and reports from the field of the Elijah message work).

For those who would like to see and investigate for yourself , here is a great site that has all the above.
Srod Info.


The pre- millennial kingdom study is quite a involved and deep one. Another subject which we may start up soon.

"We should make the Bible its own expositor" (Test. to Min. p.106)

"He requires His people faith that rests upon the weight of evidence, not upon perfect knowledge.Those followers of Christ who accept the light that God sends them must obey the voice of God speaking to them when there are many other voices crying out against it. It requires discernment to distinguish the voice of God." (Testimonies , vol. 3, p.258)

"He gives evidence, which must be carefully investigated with a humble mind and teachable spirit, and all should decide from the weight of evidence." (Testimonies, vol. 3, p.255)

I've read considerable, and also dialoged with several followers of Houteff.

Have you ever actually read the last 10 or so chapters of Great Controversy in their entirety? Or have you used her writings mainly to search through to find quotations and sentences that lend themselves to being harmonized with the Shepherd’s Rod?

When read in context, there is no way one can harmonize EGW's revelations of endtime events with Houteff's.

The studies I've seen by Houteff as well as studies shared with me by other shepherd rod followers on the temporal kingdom, harmonize far more with dispensational interpretations than with anything EGW and the new Testament teaches. (Though they will strongly deny this).
Both Houteff and dispensational arguments build on the conditional prophecies to Israel in the Old Testament.
There are differences of course, especially in other theological topics. I'm aware that there are differences -- it is these differences which have mixed in considerable Adventist theology that makes Shepherd Rod teachings appeal to some Adventists who are discouraged by their church's lukewarmness and longing for a glorious church.
Satan can present a counterfeit so closely resembling the truth that it appeals to people who have known truth.

The BASIC premise and arguments of dispensational interpretations and Houteff's arguments both use the same OT texts and end up with a literal wonderful kingdom on earth prior to God's New Earth kingdom.


Both will use Daniel 2 as if the "stone" isn't Christ's visible second coming which leaves the earth devoid of human life, but rather they assert it is the beginning of an earthly kingdom.
They differ on the length of the kingdom of course, as well as who the king will be (Houteff says it's a man, a type of Christ, while dispensationalists say it is Christ himself) but what both ignore is that when this kingdom prophesied in Daniel 2 is set up IT WILL NEVER BE DESTROYED.

The dispensationalists have it destroyed at the end of the 1000 years, while Houteff has his temporal kingdom destroyed at the second coming!
And remember if they insist its a LITERAL kingdom, with a literal king, then the prediction, it shall "never be destroyed" should also refer to that LITERAL kingdom lasting forever. But in scripture the only earthly kingdom that lasts for ever is the one established in the New Jerusalem, which comes down from heaven after the 1000 years and the earth is made new.

"I've read considerable, and also dialoged with several followers of Houteff." This is not answering the question as posed.

Can you answer the question as asked? If you'll answer it and tell me which ones you've read I'll know more of your true knowledge of his message. If you'll not be straight forward here then we can't expect a meaningful dialogue and an attempt to get to --truth.

Again, here's the site that has it all to refresh your memory.
SRod info

Of course -- Satan is always working to turn people from Christ. Those who listen to him will not have eternal life, but face death.
That is not in question.
It's not the need to surrender one's life to Christ that I question, it's your timetable and exclusive nature of God's judgment that is in question.




I'm sorry, but that argument does not convince me. It really makes no sense at all. Basically it's saying -- if you want to escape the judgement, you can still be lukewarm Adventist now, just don't be active in the church and you can continue to live as you see fit, and you won't have to worry about consequences and you can head over to the "kingdom" later and join again.

-- Though that was probably not his intent yet he was just trying to dodge the plain statements of EGW which show Houteff is teaching a different message.

  


That's adding a lot of things to the plain statements.
I guess we will always be in disagreement on that. The message is in plain English that the Sunday test comes BEFORE the sealing, not after.

"The Lord has shown me clearly that the image of the beast will be formed before probation closes, for it is to be the great test for the people of God, by which their eternal destiny will be decided.--2SM 81 (1890).
This is the test that the people of God must have before they are sealed. All who prove their loyalty to God by observing His law, and refusing to accept a spurious sabbath, will rank under the banner of the Lord God Jehovah, and will receive the seal of the living God. Those who yield the truth of heavenly origin, and accept the Sunday sabbath, will receive the mark of the beast.... {Mar 164.4}




Nor was I saying that --
There is a big difference between those IN CHRIST, and those professing to be in Christ but doing their own thing.
According to you (and I agree) there are lots of Adventists who are not "in Christ". As to Palmers unity speech I most certainly do NOT agree with Palmer.

Those in Christ, walk with Him in truth and righteousness.


Quote:
EGW
"As the defenders of truth refuse to honor the Sunday-sabbath, some of them will be thrust into prison, some will be exiled, some will be treated as slaves....a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth,abandon their position, and join the ranks of the opposition. By uniting with the world and partaking of its spirit, they have come to view matters in nearly the same light; and when the test is brought, they are prepared to choose the easy, popular side. Men of talent and pleasing address, who once rejoiced in the truth, employ their powers to deceive and mislead souls. They become the most bitter enemies of their former brethren.When Sabbath-keepers are brought before the courts to answer for their faith, these apostates are the most efficient agents of Satan to misrepresent and accuse them, and by false reports and insinuations to stir up the rulers against them." {GC88 608.1}





I don't think we should be separating the thoughts and inserting something from five pages back to make her say something she is not saying.

The large class who have professed faith in the Third angel's message abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition -- because they do not want to suffer ridicule, imprisonment, or be exiled or treated as slaves etc. etc.
This "large class" is shaken out during the crises time.

An apostate church (Babylon) will unite with the powers of earth and hell to place upon the forehead or in the hand, the mark of the beast, and prevail upon the children of God (Sabbath Keepers) to worship the beast and his image. They will seek to compel them to renounce their allegiance to God's law, and yield homage to the papacy. Then will come the times which will try men's souls; for the confederacy of apostasy will demand that the loyal subjects of God shall renounce the law of Jehovah, and repudiate the truth of His word. Then will the gold be separated from the dross, and it will be made apparent who are the godly, who are the loyal and true, and who are the disloyal, the dross and the tinsel. What clouds of chaff will then be borne away by the fan of God! Where now our eyes can discover only rich floors of wheat, will be chaff blown away with the fan of God. Every one who is not centered in Christ will fail to stand the test and ordeal of that day. While those who are clothed with Christ's righteousness will stand firm to truth and duty, those who have trusted in their own righteousness will be ranged under the black banner of the prince of darkness. Then it will be seen whether the choice is for Christ or Belial. {Mar 204.3}
Notice it is where now OUR EYES see wheat (faithful Adventists) it will be seen they were chaff and they will fail to stand the test. What test? It's clearly defined in several places.

Don't belittle the test -- it will come to every Sabbath keeper.

Also if the 144,000 are calling out people to come to a peaceful glorious kingdom established right here on earth, why would anyone worry about ridicule, and all that?




Now you either haven't been reading what I've written or are misrepresenting what I wrote.
While Ezekiel's message went to HIS PEOPLE, and was very much a message to them, I have never denied a future application. However, I do not agree with your placement of that future application.




For all your words on letting the Bible speak for itself, I'm very surprised at your reply. The Bible is very plain about the fall of literal Jerusalem at that time. EGW is very plain that Ezekiel is talking about the fall of Jerusalem at that time. Yet you deny it! And tell me I'm in error!


It's you that have been claiming a very strict word for word literal application -- I just told you what the literal reading was.
The literal reading is SIX MEN.


I could probably give you dozens of texts where God says He will do something, but it is done by people. Just like "giving His sword into the hands of the Babylonians"
"the Lord Himself declared through Ezekiel. "I the Lord have drawn forth My sword" {PK 452.1}
"I am the Lord, when I shall put My sword into the hand of the king of Babylon,"[PK454]
His angels are commissioned to do His will -- just what role they play isn't defined.
It may be to stop holding back the winds of strife.

I'll get back to you as promised but can answer my direct question?

"I've read considerable, and also dialoged with several followers of Houteff." This is not answering the question as posed.

Can you answer the question as asked? If you'll answer it and tell me which ones you've read I'll know more of your true knowledge of his message. If you'll not be straight forward here then we can't expect a meaningful dialogue and an attempt to get to --truth.

Again, here's the site that has it all to refresh your memory.
SRod info

Is one of the signs that will happen again is wolves in sheep clothing coming into the flock to distract and lead others astray?

Far better if one knows the books of Scripture.

_________________________________

Oh ok, now I see you've answered and addressed more of the prior post I sent. I had a response ready for you but I see that now I will have to revise it. Will do so next week. In mean time can you answer these questions I have asked you?

You continually say "Houteff says this or that" "Houteff believes this or that" etc. etc, yet you haven't been straight forward on letting us know what exactly have you read?? And when I mean read, I mean the whole tract or book. If you want to advocate what someone believes you can't chop it up and piece meal it and try and convince people you have knowledge of the subject.

But isn't that what you are doing with EGW's writings?
Aren't you chopping it up and making her say something very different from what she is actually saying?

You are not giving the same picture of endtime events that she has given, yet you continually take quotes from her writings to support Houteff's ideas. A lot of those quotes are not in the context in which they were written -- especially when she speaks of "putting away sin" and "cleansing" which she does NOT link with Ezekiel 9, but with actual departing from sin, not the demise of the people.

What I have said about Houteff is what he was teaching, it is what you have been sharing. It's part of the fundamental doctrines published back in 1944.
Also you have quoted his writings and I responded.

I've had Shepherd Rod people give me "Bible studies" that were supposedly to lead me step by step to accept their temporal kingdom. That was about 17 years ago now.
They gave me several tracts --The harvest, at the eleventh hour and more and directed me to Houteff's book.
. Some of it sounded good, but once I saw the errors, I saw no more point in immersing myself in those writings.

The use of EGW's writings, pieced together in such a way as to give a completely changed endtime picture was more evidence to convince me of the errors. I often look up the quotes to see their context.

Why do they use EGW writings so extensively and yet contradict her big picture of endtime events?
To me that is deception. A mixing of a lot of truth to establish an error, thus trying to make the whole seem like truth.
Now if you believe in a temporal kingdom, that's one thing -- you have the right to believe as you are convicted, but it is in direct contradiction to EGW's writings.

Also you seem to now say -- don't discuss the basic doctrines of the Shepherd Rod until you read all their writings.
Yet, it is very important to know WHERE one is going before blindly following down some path.

We need to be very careful what we feed upon. If the premise and conclusion is wrong why further immerse oneself --


If Shepherd Rod think their message is the Biblical message, that is their privilege, everyone has a right to follow their convictions, but then they should stick to the Bible, and don't use EGW and twist her message into something she did not support.

The Dream (was it prophetic or simply a dream, I leave that with the reader)

In the dream a feeling of dread rested upon us, the world situations were chaotic, the major sources of security threatened, there seemed no earthly way to turn. Suddenly a shout rang out. “ Look over there!” Far in the distance was a glorious looking doorway. It seemed to be beckoning in the radiance of its splendor. People were joyously urging everyone to come for this was the place of refuge for the world. People with happy faces were helping each other to go to this glorious door way and enter in.
We were about to join them when a voice behind us, quietly but authoritatively said, “wait and watch and pray that you enter not into temptation.” Throngs of people all around continued to enter through the doorway.
Then the scene changed. The doorway grew dark and ugly, and people who had joyously entered therein earlier were seen coming out again, but their faces were changed; their eyes had a vacant stare, their expression utterly hopeless, others were weeping in agony.
The dream ended.

Ded-"They gave me several tracts --The harvest, at the eleventh hour and more and directed me to Houteff's book.
. Some of it sounded good, but once I saw the errors, I saw no more point in immersing myself in those writings."

You must be assured and know that this is exactly what the Sunday keepers tell us when they "peer" and "surface study" EGW. We all know that there are many so-called "errors" that they claim, and they stop and say--"see, why do we need further evidence?".

Still and for the THIRD time you have obfuscated in answering the question. I don't want to hear all your explanations, just answer the questions as to what you have read from front to back, can you do that?

I've read the Great Controversy from cover to cover several times, also Early Writings, as well as scripture. Have you read Great Controversy chapter by chapter? It is this background that keeps me from blindly following Houteff's studies, for they just do NOT agree with the above, though I have read considerable of his writings.

I just found again my binder, that I compiled with an inch and a half of printed pages from Houteff's writings all dealing with his endtime prophetic ideas. Your claim that I haven't looked into this is false. The only problem is that it was a long time ago (about 17 years).

This study binder begins with Tract #1 starting on page 4. Houteff is defining God's thrones. Two Moving thrones in Ezekiel 1, and Is. 6 and two stationary thrones in Rev. 4 and Rev. 22.

Yet here already we see a contradiction between Houteff and EGW in which Houteff actually quotes EGW!!!

Houteff writes on page 8 of tract #1

EGW in the actual quote wrote:

In determining the location of the throne of Revelation 4…the one having the sea of glass before it, is (also according to John's view) in the most holy apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, for John saw before it "seven lamps of fire" (Rev. 4:5) -- a sanctuary fixture. "As in vision the apostle John was granted a view of the temple of God in heaven he beheld there 'seven lamps of fire burning before the throne.' " -- The Great Controversy, p. 414.

The holy places of the sanctuary in heaven are represented by the two apartments in the sanctuary on earth. As in vision the apostle John was granted a view of the temple of God in heaven, he beheld there "seven lamps of fire burning before the throne." Revelation 4:5. He saw an angel "having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne." Revelation 8:3. Here the prophet was permitted to behold the first apartment of the sanctuary in heaven; and he saw there the "seven lamps of fire" and "the golden altar," represented by the golden candlestick and the altar of incense in the sanctuary on earth. Great Controversy, p. 414

Why would use her quote when he didn't agree with it? It alerts one right in the first tract that he is not using EGW properly. But I read on for Houteff did have the Daniel 7 correct that God moved into the Most Holy Place in that chapter. Yet it seems Houteff thinks the throne in Daniel 7 is a stationary throne (one before the sea of glass) yet there is no sea of glass in Daniel 7 and the throne in Daniel 7 has WHEELS!

He then turns to Ezekiel chapter one, and I agreed that the throne in that chapter was definitely a moving throne in which God visits the earth.

But then he goes into a lot of twisted reasoning (that you shared and posted here on the forum and I disagreed with) that Ezekiel didn't understand what his message meant and could not possibly have delivered it to the house of Israel in his time and it is all concerning the Adventist church.

My former comments are totally relevant to what Houteff wrote, and there is no way you can honestly go about saying I simply haven't read it.

He quotes Great Controversy page 425

"...While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven,...there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth....Then the church which our Lord at His coming is to receive to Himself will be a "glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Ephesians 5:27. Then she will look "forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners." Song of Solomon 6:10. {GC 425.2} "

and links it with Ezekiel nine's massacre. Yet there is no such link at all in that quote.

Basically I think we need a study on what this means--
a special work of purification
putting away sins.

Houteff pictures it as killing everyone who doesn't measure up and calls that the "special work of purification". But that's not what it's about at all.

This special work of purification while the investigative judgment is still in progress, is a process of the heart of the members that are seriously praying and humbly submitting themselves to the Lord.

Yes, there is need for putting away sin and firmly anchoring our souls in Christ.

Because, when the test comes those who have not done so will be swept into the ranks of the enemy. There will be a separation, a BIG separation that makes it appear the church is falling, dissolving, as the major portion of it gives up the truth under the pressure and supports the opposition, but there will be those who pass the test, as they have renounced sin and are anchored firmly in Christ. It will be a TEST that most, due to negligence are not prepared to pass.

I have to admit, you get more creative with each response to my question.

Now, stop and think here. I did not ask what you have done with brother Houteff's writings and some of your conclusions you make and some of the contradictions you found (all that can be addressed later Lord willing).

I simply asked and again, for the FOURTH time:

What books, Tracts, or other titles have you read front to back of Houteff's writings?

If you have surface read them and read parts of them, fine just tell us.

How can one speak of the writings of an author without reading them completely, unless they have certain ideas and agenda they are promoting.

Ellen White was very clear here--
"He gives evidence, which must be carefully investigated with a humble mind and teachable spirit, and all should decide from the weight of evidence." (Testimonies, vol 3, p.255)

How can one "carefully investigate" if they study a subject part way?

Does not our Sunday keeping friends do the same thing with us? They read bits and pieces of EGW and Sabbath Scripture and say, "See, there is error, why do I have to study further?"

By the way, and I had mentioned this to you before, brother Houteff took on much more difficult questions and apparent contradictions than you bring up in his "Questions and Answers" volumes (over 169 questions submitted by those for and AGAINST him)

Why don't you look these over and see if you find his answers correct or wrong. Here it is The Answerer

You and I are coming from a different belief in the "Elijah to come". You flatly reject Victor Houteff as that one prophesied and you admit by your obfuscating, that you dis-believe even though you have not study the matter out completely.

I, on the other hand, have done so. No one wants to be deceived, certainly myself, and as such I have studied the matter with a keen eye to truth, even if that means denying ANYONE's statements not in accordance with truth.

Furthemore, once one understands that all clues prophesied fit only one man in our history it REQUIRES us to take this matter very seriously and not superficially.

Bottomline, you are not the first to deny that the Lord has sent a Elijah to come to our church, and your attitude of, "ah see I got the goods here" is only but in a long line of previous doubters. I have read all the anti-Rod reports and STILL strongly believe that the "preponderance of evidence" strongly shows the Lord has sent that one who He said He would.

Test. to Ministers, page 475, clearly brings up 4 or 5 clues, on the Elijah to come, and it clearly shows that this man would be "rejected". How was that rejection to be manifest? Speaking of the Elijah EGW said the people would say- "you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way, let me tell you how to teach your message".

If you are found wrong here, the rejection of the God sent one and his solemn and very important message, cannot go response free from the Lord.

There is much more to say but would you answer the main question? If your beliefs are right , then why hide anything and answer the straight forward question?

"Men, women, and youth, God requires you to possess moral courage, steadiness of purpose, fortitude and perseverance, minds that cannot take the assertions of another, but which will investigate for themselves before receiving or rejecting, that will study and weigh evidence, and take it to the Lord in prayer."If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. "Test, vol.2, p.130)

One last thing, if anyone wants to know the truth seriously, they MUST go before the Lord in prayer before undertaking a study. And come before him with an open mind free from pre-conceived ideas. Those who open a study, with an agenda, will find what they are looking for, not necessarily --God's truth.

"God will never remove every occasion for doubt.He gives sufficient evidence on which to base faith, and if this is not accepted, the mind is left in darkness".(Patriarchs and prophets, p.432)

But have you actually read EGW's writings from cover to cover, or is yours just a surface research looking for quotes that appear to substantiate Houteff, even though the concluding picture is in contradiction to her writings.

Have you now chosen to attack me, rather than deal with the issues? I have read whole chapters from his book, as well as numerous tracts -- I can't remember each of their name. I already told you the names of TWO of them that I remembered.

I have read EGW's writings, and Houteff contradicts her conclusions over and over again.

That's not to say everything contradicts -- no, not at all, there are some interesting insights in his writings, but one can't read far in any of his tracts or book without being constantly led to his basic premises (his idea that purification means being slaughtered, and his idea that preaching the gospel to the world means a temporal LITERAL kingdom in Palestine).

And the thing is most disconcerting is how he MISUSES EGW, often taking sentences from her writings where she is talking about something different and weaving it into his ideas as if she were talking about the same thing.

What you believe is "truth" is between you and God, but don't expect people to agree with you when they see glaring contradictions to truth in the conclusions of events Houteff tries to teach.

Yes, I want TRUTH --
I most certainly do NOT want to be trapped in some earthly counterfeit kingdom, nor do I want my friends trapped in it, and really for your own sake, you should seriously rethink this whole thing.




But Ellen White is NOT talking about Houteff!
Please don't quote her as if she was.

In that quote she is talking about GOD!!!
" God does not propose to remove all occasion for unbelief. He gives evidence, which must be carefully investigated with a humble mind and a teachable spirit, and all should decide from the weight of evidence.


But what does she say about prophets who use her writings to make their "claims" sound authentic?



And such is precisely how I see Houteff's writings.
He was "uniting them with the testimonies" the Lord gave EGW, in an attempt to give them "authenticity", but his conclusions are in contradiction to her writings.




Haven't we already seen the fruits of Houteff's writings several times? Yes, I realize present day Shepherd Rod's say those events are a "misunderstanding" of his writings.
And it's true the Shepherd Rod splintered into several divisions in the early 1960's, each with their own brand of beliefs.

But what about back in the 1950's?
What about the parents of some close friends of ours, who sold everything and went down to Mt. Carmel back in the 1950's. This dedicated couple believed Houteff's message enough to give up everything, sell their home and everything, and go to the supposed "place of refuge" and donate all their money.

What they found at Mt. Carmel was NOT a group of people spotless and without sin. There was sinning going on. Houteff died about then -- that was quite a shock to those people who had given up everything to join his small band as Victor Houteff taught that he would not die, but would lead his people to the "holy land" and on to Christ's coming.

Houteff's wife, Florence took over the leadership and bolstered up their confidence by amplifying V.Houteff's statements that the 1260 prophetic days would have a literal fulfillment, so she marked off 1260 literal days that ended sometime in 1959, when certain endtime events supposedly were to transpire --- of course they didn't.

Our friend's parents came back to Canada very disillusioned, with absolutely nothing -- no home, no money, destitute, and they had been quite well off previous to their journey to Mt. Carmel.

That was back in the 1950's in the original Shepherd Rod group.

Ded- But have you actually read EGW's writings from cover to cover, or is yours just a surface research looking for quotes that appear to substantiate Houteff, even though the concluding picture is in contradiction to her writings.

Gsll-But that is not an applicable point. I am not disproving and denying Ellen White like you are with VTH. Because you make yourself out as some type of authority on the Shepherd's Rod , when in fact and in truth, you have not read the material fully , as to “weigh the matter”. As mentioned this is the SAME tactic is used by the Sunday keepers against us. They pick and choose because they have an agenda to “prove it wrong” instead of arriving at truth even though it may be against what they believe as truth.

Let us be careful as the Lord's 9th Commandment specifically says “Do not bear false witness”.

Ded-Have you now chosen to attack me, rather than deal with the issues? I have read whole chapters from his book, as well as numerous tracts -- I can't remember each of their name. I already told you the names of TWO of them that I remembered.

Gsll--I'm sorry if you think you are being “attacked” and it is not my intention to hurt your feelings. It's only that I want the truth spoken on this matter and not misstatements and falsehood.

I have conceded on some points with you and admitted that a few of your specific points were valid, can you do the same?

We are told that we must “love the truth” if we are to be saved (2 Thes. 2:10)

And also even if this truth is contemptuous , and you have placed contempt upon this message, we must examine it closely and be careful to not surface study it.

“God means that testing truth shall be brought to the front and become a subject of examination and discussion, even if it is through the contempt placed upon it.” (Testimonies, vol. 5, p.453)

Ded--I have read EGW's writings, and Houteff contradicts her conclusions over and over again.
 
Gsll- Are you not aware that many including VTH have pointed out correctly on several occasions how it is easy to spot apparent contradictions with EGW writings (she says one thing than later says another on the same matter) So do we throw her out? of course not we “weigh it all out” the WHOLE matter then decide.

Further, and I know this you don't believe, but the Elijah to come was to “restore” all things meaning restore truth first then his message is to restore the kingdom (first on earth then taken to heaven.) So VTH's words in regards to any lack of clarity by EGW is it's restoration of her subject matter.

However this ”kingdom” is not to be a literal worldly commercial kingdom rather a “church” kingdom comprised of only wheat and headquarted in Israel. But this is another LONG study and involved indeed.

“Fair as the moon, and as terrible as an army with banners, the church is to enter upon her final conflict, conquering and to conquer. “(PK p.725) No tares in this bunch!

Ded- .. there are some interesting insights in his writings..”

Gsll-Let's be honest, there are more than "some” there is really so much insight , that those who humbly and with open mind study it in full can come to no other conclusion that this is the “interpreter” sent us as prophesied by EGW (Test. To Ministers. p.475).

Ded- one can't read far in any of his tracts or book without being constantly led to his basic premises (his idea that purification means being slaughtered, and his idea that preaching the gospel to the world means a temporal LITERAL kingdom in Palestine).
 
Gsll- Those are not “his” ideas, that is another false lie, please read--

“Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.” (Isaiah 52:1)

"He who presides over His church and the destinies of nations is carrying forward the last work to be accomplished for this world. To His angels He gives the commission to execute His judgments. Let the ministers awake, let them take in the situation. The work of judgment begins at the sanctuary. "And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar." Read Ezekiel 9:2-7. Testimonies to Ministers p. 430

"Angels keep a faithful record of every man's work, and as judgment passes upon the house of God, the sentence of each is recorded by his name, and the angel is commissioned to spare not the unfaithful servants, but to cut them down at the time of slaughter. And that which was committed to their trust is taken from them." Testimonies, Vol. 1 p. 198.

"Many, I saw, were flattering themselves that they were good Christians, who have not a single ray of light from Jesus. They know not what it is to be renewed by the grace of God. They have no living experience for themselves in the things of God. And I saw that the Lord was whetting His sword in heaven to cut them down. Oh, that every lukewarm professor could realize the clean work that God is about to make among His professed people! Dear friends, do not deceive yourselves concerning your condition. You cannot deceive God. Says the True Witness: 'I know thy works.'" Testimonies, Vol.1 p. 190.

if you can't see a purification among God's people here, then I pray the Spirit of Truth come and guide you.(John 16:13)


Ded-Yes, I want TRUTH --
I most certainly do NOT want to be trapped in some earthly counterfeit kingdom, nor do I want my friends trapped in it, and really for your own sake, you should seriously rethink this whole thing.

Gsll- You do? Then how come I never see any acknowledgment of “truth” that is shown you? Like the fact that you are wrong about the angels who do the work of Ezekiel 9 and NOT humans.Why haven't you admitted that. If we take that specific point to task, you idea turns into baloney.

Originally Posted By: GL&L
Ded--Ellen White was very clear here--
"He gives evidence, which must be carefully investigated with a humble mind and teachable spirit, and all should decide from the weight of evidence." (Testimonies, vol 3, p.255)


But Ellen White is NOT talking about Houteff! 
Please don't quote her as if she was. 

Gsll- VTH quotes EGW yes, but those quotes are saying truth . Anyone who decides to investigate must come to their own conclusions and you or I can't dictate what they are to believe.We search these things out like the Bureans.


Ded--Haven't we already seen the fruits of Houteff's writings several times? Yes, I realize present day Shepherd Rod's say those events are a "misunderstanding" of his writings.
And it's true the Shepherd Rod splintered into several divisions in the early 1960's, each with their own brand of beliefs. 

But what about back in the 1950's?
What about the parents of some close friends of ours, who sold everything and went down to Mt. Carmel back in the 1950's. This dedicated couple believed Houteff's message enough to give up everything, sell their home and everything, and go to the supposed "place of refuge" and donate all their money.

Gsll--. See this site for truth on the history . Wikipedia—Davidian Seventh Day Adventist


Ded- ..Florence took over the leadership and bolstered up their confidence by amplifying V.Houteff's statements that the 1260 prophetic days would have a literal fulfillment, so she marked off 1260 literal days that ended sometime in 1959, when certain end time events supposedly were to transpire --- of course they didn't. 

Gsll--May God forgive your soul sister, This is falsehood and twisting of the facts. Brother Houteff NEVER made any predictions of the time when the 1260 days would have an end time fulfillment. That was Florence Houteff's prediction SOLELY (who went apostate later even denying EGW).

If you would study the history to know the truth, you'd know that Florence actually fulfilled brother Houteff predictions that some within would cause a “knock out blow” for the cause. Just as Judas was very close to Jesus and later betrayed him, so too Florence would later, after VTH's death betray Victor's cause and bring division in that day by “her” and her board of leaders to bring the Lord's Rod to the Alter to sacrifice (declaring that the her prediction would prove or disprove the message).

But truth seekers today who believe that the Lord performed His promise and sent an Elijah to give us a message (Malachi 4:5 and Test. To Ministers, p.475) don't fall for the schemes of Satan. Who has been hovering closely by those who promote this message of truth. He hates it at all costs and as we have seen has tried his upmost to destroy the Lord's Rod message, yet the people are listening to the message despite the false attacks.
“Hear ye the rod, and Who has appointed it.” (Micah 6:9)

Ded- Our friend's parents came back to Canada very disillusioned, with absolutely nothing -- no home, no money, destitute, and they had been quite well off previous to their journey to Mt. Carmel.

Gsll- I obviously don't know all the facts of this situation(neither do you). I can tell you that I have spoken many times to two living remaining members of the camp while VTH was there. Bonnie Smith (83) and Don Adair (82). Both of these tell of a completely different story than your story. They tell of a camp that was devoted to Christ. They tell of some of the miracles they witness on that camp. They tell of the absolute devotion brother Houteff had to the Lord.
For a more complete history of the camp see Don Adair's book “A Davidian testimony”. And the photo album from sister Bonnie. See here -- Bonnie Smith photo album

Your comments admit that the succeeding “leadership”(not Houteff) were the ones who predicted “by amplifying V.Houteff's statements”. This whole fiasco of the false 1260 day prediction has been attributed to VTH for a long time and promoted by the anti- Rod SDA leaders, even though they know it was never taught by VTH.

Why don't you provide written proof showing your VTH statements regarding the 1260 days(?)I'd like to see your evidence of this.

This is what Satan does, he tries to twist the truth and promote falsehood, and those who wittingly or unwittingly cooperate with it are –BEARING FALSE WITNESS and breaking the 9th Commandment.

One last comment, and it's very important. John the Baptist and even Apostle Paul are guilty just as Victor Houteff is if we condmen VTH for believing that he would witness the Lord's kingdom. Because both of these holy man believed it as well. EGW confirms John's account of that belief. Also Paul mentions that he believed he'd see the Lord coming in the clouds-- Are they false prophets?

“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. “ (1 Thes. 4:17)

“The testimony, so cutting and severe, cannot be a mistake, for it is the True Witness who speaks, and His testimony must be correct.” Testimonie Treasures, vol. 1 page 328)

“Now as in former ages, the presentation of a truth that reproves the sins and errors of the times will excite opposition.”

This why they hated brother Houteff, his message struck at the core of their corruptions. It exposed their “retreating towards Egypt.” And it wondrously shows old and new testament prophecies in glorious truths. praise the Lord!

But it is a very applicable point. Because EGW is used extensively to "prove" Houteff's interpretations, yet there is no way I can reconcile her end time sequence with Houteff's.

As to me being some kind of "authority" on his writings -- no, I do not claim that. But his conclusions deny several truths, (like the Sabbath test for Adventists) and present a different "end" scene (a temperal kingdom in Palestine) that is far to close to Babylon's end time scene for comfort.



Last night I read through one "book" of the answers to questions by Houteff, and most of the second book. The questions were for the most part very superficial making them easy to explain away, only a couple of them actually touched on the main issues that trouble me about Houteff's teachings. The answers were really nothing new as per Houteff's teachings. They really didn't answer my questions.


If you haven't read EGW's writings in their context and proper sequence, how can you honestly use her writings so extensively to prove something that she never taught?

Bearing false witness can also include extensive interweaving of someone's writings to give authority to ones own ideas which the original author never meant to teach.

It is NOT false witness to disagree with someone else's beliefs.

GL&L--I'm sorry if you think you are being “attacked” and it is not my intention to hurt your feelings. It's only that I want the truth spoken on this matter and not misstatements and falsehood.

You haven't hurt my feelings, I just found it strange that you now centered on me, and what I have or have not read, over and over again, instead of focusing on the issues, even though I told you I have read. Not everything he wrote of course, but I have read for myself quite a bit of his writings.

GL&L wrote: I have conceded on some points with you and admitted that a few of your specific points were valid, can you do the same?
... you have placed contempt upon this message, we must examine it closely and be careful to not surface study it.

I have conceded quite a bit --
I agree that the church must be cleansed, that a separation must take place, that sin needs to be put away, that the final loud cry is still future, etc.
But the main points as to how this is all to come about -- it's true I strongly disagree with Houteff's interpretations.

 
Gsll- Are you not aware that many including VTH have pointed out correctly on several occasions how it is easy to spot apparent contradictions with EGW writings (she says one thing than later says another on the same matter) So do we throw her out? of course not we “weigh it all out” the WHOLE matter then decide.


If it were only "apparent contradictions" it would be one thing, but it is a WHOLE DIFFERENT ENDTIME SEQUENCE with a kingdom in Palestine! Like I mentioned I read a lot of his answers to questions, and he makes it appear the contradictions are only "apparent" but not deep. Yet, both question and answer ignore the actual context in which EGW placed the quotes being discussed.

Let me give just one example:



Thus again Houteff says these are all NEW CONVERTS, since his interpretation does not admit the truth that Adventists will be tested with the Sunday law. But the referenced quote in Great Controversy in its entirety shows this is not a few newly converted people who won't make it to the kingdom", situation. This is a world wide condition, a condition that does not change until the last plague when God delivers His people.

Listen to EGW's appeal just prior:


She repeatedly appeals to church members to prepare, to diligently seek that sanctifying connection with Christ whereby sin is vanquished and faith is strong, so they will be able to stand the test and not lose faith in the trials. No where in those chapters is there a hint that vast numbers will be safe in a kingdom of safety and only those who "couldn't make it to Palestine" would have to hide.


GL&L writes:

Further, and I know this you don't believe, but the Elijah to come was to “restore” all things meaning restore truth first then his message is to restore the kingdom (first on earth then taken to heaven.) So VTH's words in regards to any lack of clarity by EGW is it's restoration of her subject matter.

And so anyone can come and pull together some quotes from her writings and say -- "She didn't understand what she was really saying, but I have restored".
Test the spirits!


How is it that Christianity in general all look for a literal kingdom ( a supposedly righteous kingdom once the antichrist power is out of the way) in present Palestine?
How is it that our Pioneers strongly opposed that type of kingdom and presented the "kingdom of grace" as something with no geographical borders or place, but a kingdom that grows in the heart and minds of God's people?

Houteff's message teaches a gathering together of people into one place (Palestine) under some man he calls the "antitypical David" ruling as king in a theocracy styled literal kingdom in the place of Christ.

Are you absolutely sure this antitype isn't an antichrist?


Aren't we strongly warned about placing a mere human into absolute kingly power? Yet that is what Houteff's interpretations prescribe.

But who do all those prophesies REALLY point to --
another modern day man "David"?
No -- they all point to CHRIST.

Luke 1:31-32 JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.







[GL&L]“
“Now as in former ages, the presentation of a truth that reproves the sins and errors of the times will excite opposition.” This why they hated brother Houteff,

No that is not the reason. Nor is he hated.
But I do NOT agree with his interpretations of certain prophecies.

What sword will cleanse the church?

Revelation 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which has the sharp sword with two edges;
2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Christ will do battle with the sword of His mouth, the power of His Word.

Rev. 1:13,16 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man,.... and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword:



Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

"the Word cuts away the fleshly lusts. It is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the mind. It divides the joints and marrow, cutting away the lusts of the flesh, making men willing to suffer for their Lord. {OFC 129.4}

" The Word of the Lord is quick and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword. The Word is a power as we practice it. The great change that the truth makes is inward. It begins in the heart, and works outwardly."

So what does the following quote mean?
:"Many, I saw, were flattering themselves that they were good Christians, who have not a single ray of light from Jesus. They know not what it is to be renewed by the grace of God. They have no living experience for themselves in the things of God. And I saw that the Lord was whetting His sword in heaven to cut them down. Oh, that every lukewarm professor could realize the clean work that God is about to make among His professed people! Dear friends, do not deceive yourselves concerning your condition. You cannot deceive God. Says the True Witness: 'I know thy works.'" Testimonies, Vol.1 p. 190.


Basically it means the church is in a bad spiritual slump. Members were dead in their sins (though still alive physically_

Gods' sword is likened more to a surgeons knife.
The church members need their sinful parts to be removed from their lives.


Is God literally getting out a sword to kill in order to make a "clean work" ?
Or will He use the sword that inspiration says He will wield? A sword in His MOUTH, not in His hand.
The sword of His Word.



What is the "straight testimony"?
It is the message to the seventh church in Revelation 3.

" The Lord calls for a renewal of the straight testimony borne in years past. He calls for a renewal of spiritual life. The spiritual energies of His people have long been torpid, but there is to be a resurrection from apparent death. By prayer and confession of sin we must clear the King's highway.--8T 297

The meaning is clear, indeed the Bible is its own interpreter; the sword is the sword of the Spirit, even the word of God, it is that word which is sharper than any two-edged sword, and which lays bare the thoughts and intents of the soul (Ephesians 6:17; Hebrews 4:12. Compare Isaiah 49:2). This is the weapon with which Christ will subdue His enemies; no carnal weapon is needed (2Corinthians 10:4). Those that take any other sword in hand than this to advance His kingdom will perish with the weapon to which they have appealed (Revelation 13:10; Matthew 26:52), but those who arm themselves with this will find it mighty through God. With this weapon of His word He Himself fights against His adversaries (Revelation 2:12; Revelation 2:16; Revelation 19:15; Revelation 19:21); with this He lays bare the hidden hypocrisies of men, cuts off the diseased members, and wounds that He may heal.

"We need not say: The perils of the last days are soon to come upon us. Already they have come. We need now the sword of the Lord to cut to the very soul and marrow of fleshly lusts, appetites, and passions". {FLB 336.5}

And thus too in the end,
the WORD of God is the destroying sword:
As the enemies of God's law rush upon God's faithful to slay them, God will speak.

Ded--“Last night I read through one "book" of the answers to questions by Houteff, and most of the second book. The questions were for the most part very superficial making them easy to explain away, only a couple of them actually touched on the main issues that trouble me about Houteff's teachings. The answers were really nothing new as per Houteff's teachings. They really didn't answer my questions.”

Gsll- Ok let's see some “superficial” questions--

IS THERE NEED FOR “EXTRA OIL" ?
Question No. 8:
I am told that somewhere in her writings, Sister White has said: “We have all the light which we need till Jesus comes.” Can you give the reference?
Gsll-Very good and applicable question for us as “Laodiceans”, we who think we “have need of nothing” Are we rich and satisfied with what we know as truth? Or is there need for “extra oil” in our lamps?


IS THE FORMER RAIN THE
PENTECOSTAL POWER?
Question No. 11:
“The Shepherd’s Rod” says that the former rain is the Spirit of Prophecy, and that the latter rain is the closely related pre-Pentecostal message, or “teacher of righteousness,” which the church is now receiving, and that the Pentecostal “power” is still another thing. But “The Desire of Ages” says that the “former rain” was the “outpouring of the Spirit in apostolic days,” and the “latter rain,” the Pentecostal outpouring itself, is to occur in the last days. What is one to believe?
Gsll- A question which shows apparent discrepancies on the “power” of two distinct time periods. The answer addresses the difference.



THE LATTER RAIN-WHEN?
Question No. 9:
“Early Writings,” p. 15, speaks about God’s announcing the day and the hour of Jesus’ coming, and pouring upon the saints the Holy Ghost. Does not all this take place at the time of the seven last plagues, just before the second Advent? If so, then does it not show that the “latter rain” is to be poured out upon God’s people after the close of probation.

Gsll-EGW does says what the questioner points out, and is an important issue to straightens out.

WHEN DID THE SEALS BEGIN?
Question No. 20:
What Biblical proof is there to show that the events of the Seven Seals (Rev. 4-8) span the entire world’s history, which is contrary to the Denomination’s teaching that they cover only the Christian church period? Don’t you know that the book with the seals is symbolical of the books of Daniel and The Revelation?

Gsll-- An timely and important question, as we as SDA have taught that the seals cover the Christian era. Brother Houteff soundly shows that this cannot be so.

WHAT IS THE SEAL?
Question No. 21:
What is the seal of God upon the foreheads of the 144,000 (Rev. 7:3)? Is it the Sabbath seal or something else?

Gsll-- Here VTH shows that there is an important difference between the Sabbath seal and the seal of the 144,000.

WHEN WILL HE SEPARATE THE TARES FROM THE WHEAT?
Question No. 24:
“Christ’s Object Lessons,” p. 123, says: “When the work of the gospel is completed, there immediately follows the separation between the good and the evil.” Does not the separation here mentioned take place at the second advent?

Gsll- Good question concerning the separation of the wheat and tares, hardly a superficial question.

WHY THREE TITLES TO THE ONCE-DIVIDED KINGDOM?
Question No. 41:
Will you please explain the difference in the terms, Judah, Ephriam, and Israel?

Gsll- This distinct clarification is made and solidly backed up Scripture.

WILL THE KINGDOM BE SET UP BEFORE THE MILLENNIUM?
Question No. 42:
“The Great Controversy,” pp. 322, 323, teaches that “not until the personal advent of Christ can His people receive the kingdom....But when Jesus comes, He confers immortality upon His people; and then He calls them to inherit the kingdom of which they have hitherto been only heirs.” Will you please help harmonize the Bible and “The Shepherd’s Rod” with these and other passages in Sister White’s writings in regard to the setting up of the Kingdom?

GSLL-- Now this one Q and A is probably the deepest and pertinent of the questions in volume 1 and 2. I will post this one later for us to see, as it addresses what “Scripture” has said about this matter. You, especially, should seriously study this one.

Do those questions appear superficial? Hardly.

Ded- If you haven't read EGW's writings in their context and proper sequence, how can you honestly use her writings so extensively to prove something that she never taught? 

Bearing false witness can also include extensive interweaving of someone's writings to give authority to ones own ideas which the original author never meant to teach.

It is NOT false witness to disagree with someone else's beliefs.
 
Gsll- To answer your question directly, I have read a couple of EGW's material (front to back) Desire of Ages, Great Controversy. I have done extensive reading of all the Testimonie volumes (1 to 9). Much of Testimonies to Ministers, and Early Writings, Mauscript Releases,Prophets and Kings, and others.

True, it is not false witness to disagree with someone else's belief, but it IS when you say things about that one that he did not say. Which you have done already. Big difference.

Here are the exact list of “superficial questions” which are timely and appropriate for us as truth seeking SDA.

Contents (Vol. 1)
The Answerer’s Introductory Concern 
What Is Laodicea’s Trouble? 
Why The Need Of Revival And Reformation? 
What Is The Phenomenon Of Inspiration? 
Is Satan Wholesaling Or Retailing Deception? 
What Saith The Spirit Unto Laodicea? 
Does Truth Make Division? 
Christ Or His Servant?
Is There Need For Extra Oil? 
The Latter Rain-When? 
Has The Loud Cry Begun? 
Is The Former Rain The Pentecostal Power? 
When In Need Of Truth, Why Beg For Power? 
Forty Years Without Refilling? 
Does The Shepherd’s Rod Set Prophetic Dates? 

Contents (Vol.2)

A Stephen-Sermon To The Church Today 
May We Know The Hour?
Is God’s Traveling Throne A Locomotive?
Are There Palms In Hands Of Some, Or In Hands Of All?
When Begins The Time Of The End?
Why Prophecies In Place Of Love?
When Did The Seals Begin? 
What Is The Seal? 
Is The Sealing On? Who Are Sealed? Are Any Beyond Sinning? 
Is Not The Harvest The End Of The World?
When Will He Separate The Tares From The Wheat? 
Is The Slaughter Of Ezekiel Nine Literal?
Who Are The Woman And Her Remnant? 
Who Identified Planets Seen In Vision? 
Is All Of A Word To The Little Flock Authentic? 
Has There Been Amalgamation Of Man And Beast? 
Why Not Making Better Progress? 
Why Agitate Where Not Wanted? 
Work Within Or Without? 
Does The Rod Still Teach The “Same Things”?
Is Evening The Ending Or The Beginning Of Day?
Is It True? 
In Which Seal?
Who Flee To Mountains? 
When Will He Leave The Sanctuary? 
Who Has Wandered Away From The Old Landmarks? 
Former Or Latter View? 
Why Three Titles To The Once-Divided Kingdom? 
Will the Kingdom Be Set Up Before The Millennium? 
Will Old Jerusalem Be Rebuilt? 
The Marriage Supper Of The Lamb In Heaven Or On Earth? 
The Kingdom Of God In The Heart, Or In The Earth? 
When Will The Winds Be Loosed? 
What is the Anger Of The Nations? 
What Shall Your Next Step Be? 

Link to volume one and two questions and answers-- Answerer

Ded-I just found it strange that you now centered on me, and what I have or have not read, over and over again, instead of focusing on the issues, even though I told you I have read. Not everything he wrote of course, but I have read for myself quite a bit of his writings.

Gsll- that is all I wanted addressed—what you read front to back. A Tract for instance is not exceedingly large and can be read in a couple of evenings. What I find in a two way discussion is that when questions are ignored that mean important points to the questioner, then we then start to go “round and round” and it never ends. Ellen White made excellent counsel which I try to adhere to.

“ When their questions have been fairly answered, they will turn the subject and bring up another point to avoid acknowledging the truth. We should beware of indulging the spirit which controlled the Jews.” (Test. To Ministers, p.108-109)

As I mentioned I will certainly admit any revelations of truth or points you make, why? Because I love truth and do not want to be lost ( 2 Thes. 2:10)

But I have kept an eye for reciprocal behavior from you and to be very honest have not seen much of this from you. I will not go into a never ending hopscotch where the truth is not admitted. I've learned my lesson with the Sunday keepers over the Sabbath debate.

For example, one of the OT quotes I used to use with them was Psalms 111:7,8 “All His Commandments are sure, they stand fast forever and ever.” Then I would say, “Brother can't you see that it says that ALL of His Commandments are now and forever?” They would say “That is not what it means”.And then try to twist it into excluding the Sabbath! And I would feel like batting my head against the wall because the straight clear truth was not straight and clear to them.

Ded-I have conceded quite a bit -- 
I agree that the church must be cleansed, that a separation must take place, that sin needs to be put away, that the final loud cry is still future, etc.
But the main points as to how this is all to come about -- it's true I strongly disagree with Houteff's interpretations. 

Gsll- Conceded quite a bit? You mean conceded to your conclusions of what you have always believed. When I have shown you certain truth from Scripture and EGW and even VTH that you did not know, almost all of it has not been admitted and conceded. For example, the fact that the “angels” are to do the separtaion in Ezek. 9, you STILL ignore that truth even though it's so plain and cannot be controverted.

Ded- If it were only "apparent contradictions" it would be one thing, but it is a WHOLE DIFFERENT ENDTIME SEQUENCE with a kingdom in Palestine! Like I mentioned I read a lot of his answers to questions, and he makes it appear the contradictions are only "apparent" but not deep. Yet, both question and answer ignore the actual context in which EGW placed the quotes being discussed.

Gsll- read the full answer in question number 42 above. This addresses the issue fully.

Ded- She repeatedly appeals to church members to prepare, to diligently seek that sanctifying connection with Christ whereby sin is vanquished and faith is strong, so they will be able to stand the test and not lose faith in the trials. No where in those chapters is there a hint that vast numbers will be safe in a kingdom of safety and only those who "couldn't make it to Palestine" would have to hide.

Gsll- Again see question no. 42, he addresses that issue, particularly how EGW did not have all the light on end time events, and that to believe this as you do makes you just like the Jews who would had nothing to do with advancing truth (Jesus) because they were STUCK on Moses as being the declarer all of what is truth.

Ded- And so anyone can come and pull together some quotes from her writings and say -- "She didn't understand what she was really saying, but I have restored".
Test the spirits! 

Gsll- Yes! Test them and study them with a teachable spirit. Once the whole matter is studied, the positive and negative –THEN make a decision.

Ded- Aren't we strongly warned about placing a mere human into absolute kingly power? Yet that is what Houteff's interpretations prescribe.

Gsll- The Scripture is clear, Again read question no. 42 above. This answers much of your ideas and false assumptions.

Ded- “Now as in former ages, the presentation of a truth that reproves the sins and errors of the times will excite opposition.” This why they hated brother Houteff, No that is not the reason. Nor is he hated.
But I do NOT agree with his interpretations of certain prophecies.

Gsll-- Again, you have not studied history well. VTH was hated by some of the people (particularly the SDA leaders) . He was brutally beaten at least once in church and also the people who stood with him were mis-treated many times and all this is documented history. One lady was even punched in the stomach for just want ing to have communion.

Another lady was forced to stand out in the freezing cold during services. Start reading what REALLY happened. Once you do, you'll find that there is no record during VTH's time, about him or his people causing any damage or disturbance, it was always the other way around.

"There here is nothing in the popular ministry that stirs the wrath of Satan, makes the sinner tremble, or applies to the heart and conscience the fearful realities of a judgment soon to come.” (EW, p.273) – That me friend is what was at the core of this abuse of God's people back then.(even today for sure!)

The history shows that Victor was not treated in fairness or Christian decency. I noticed you commented on the Kangaroo court post (number one) yet no comment of the second one? Are you going to admit that the jury was biased? That it was underhanded and wrong to put on a facade of a hearing, only to back stab him AT THE SAME time in other high level GC meeting in another part of the country? That they were not having a hearing to arrive at truth but to placate the laity that they 'looked into VTH's teachings”?

Let's see whether you love the truth here but your admission on these points(?)

Why have you not admitted you are wrong about yourstatement here--
Ded- ..Florence took over the leadership and bolstered up their confidence by amplifying V.Houteff's statements that the 1260 prophetic days would have a literal fulfillment, so she marked off 1260 literal days that ended sometime in 1959, when certain end time events supposedly were to transpire --- of course they didn't. 

Gsll--May God forgive your soul sister, This is falsehood and twisting of the facts. Brother Houteff NEVER made any predictions of the time when the 1260 days would have an end time fulfillment. That was Florence Houteff's prediction SOLELY (who went apostate later even denying EGW). 

If you would study the history to know the truth, you'd know that Florence actually fulfilled brother Houteff predictions that some within would cause a “knock out blow” for the cause. Just as Judas was very close to Jesus and later betrayed him, so too Florence would later, after VTH's death betray Victor's cause and bring division in that day by “her” and her board of leaders to bring the Lord's Rod to the Alter to sacrifice (declaring that the her prediction would prove or disprove the message).




Ded- one can't read far in any of his tracts or book without being constantly led to his basic premises (his idea that purification means being slaughtered, and his idea that preaching the gospel to the world means a temporal LITERAL kingdom in Palestine).
 

Gsll- Did you not see where you are incorrect by claiming the church purification is VTH's “idea”? Scripture and SOP say these things that point to the LORD doing the purification directly . Please read –

“Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? This that is glorious in his apparel, traveling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Why are Your clothes red, and Your garments like one who treads a winepress? I have trodden the wine press alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in My fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon My garments, and I will stain all My raiment. For the day of vengeance is in Mine heart, and the year of My redeemed is come. (Isaiah 63:1-4)

Gsll- Edom was known as the land of Esau, that signifies the tares in the church (Jacob was the wheat). Bozrah means “sheep fold” which signifies church. Now, to take this in context read the verse before it --”And they shall call them The Holy People, the REDEEMED of the LORD; and you shall be SOUGHT OUT, a city not forsaken.” So the “year of my redeemed is come” means that after this, these people will be “sought out” and have a city “not forsaken”.

The 144,000 in other words are now empowered by the Lord to go to work and people will see that the Lord is with them and they’ll call them “Holy people”.

“Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.” (Isaiah 52:1)

Gsll- has there ever been a time where God's church has not had the unclean among them since Isaiah's day? Absolutely not! A future prophecy yet to be fulfilled. God's word cannot return void please remember.

Also note that these unconverted ones no longer “come unto thee” meaning that there will be a clean place where no more sinners can come. Can this be said of those who run to the hills and mountains in the time of trouble? Of course not, that is foolishness. The converted ones will come to the holy city, not the holy deserted mountains and hills.

"Many, I saw, were flattering themselves that they were good Christians, who have not a single ray of light from Jesus. They know not what it is to be renewed by the grace of God. They have no living experience for themselves in the things of God.

And I saw that the Lord was whetting His sword in heaven to cut them down.Oh, that every lukewarm professor could realize the clean work that God is about to make among His professed people! Dear friends, do not deceive yourselves concerning your condition. You cannot deceive God. Says the True Witness: 'I know thy works.'" Testimonies, Vol.1 p. 190.

Gsll- Does “lukewarm professor” mean the world's professors here? Laodiceans are the only "lukewarm” people mentioned in SOP. The Lord is who will conduct this purification.

“We have been inclined to think that where there are no faithful ministers there can be no true Christians, but this is not the case. God has promised that where the shepherds are not true He will take charge of the flock Himself. God has never made the flock wholly dependent upon human instrumentalities. But the days of purification of the church are hastening on apace.

God will have a people pure and true. In the mighty sifting soon to take place we shall be better able to measure the strength of Israel. The signs reveal that the time is near when the Lord will manifest that His fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor.” (Testimonies, vol. 5, p.80)

Gsll- After the sifting takes place the church “Israel” will better be able to be measured. Babylon is not Israel, no matter how you try to slice and dice it, so we know this purification is not about Babylon.. Further, how is this “sifting” going to take place? The Lord (not the Sunday law) will “thoroughly purge His floor (church) by His “fan” in His hand. .


Lastly to conclude, however resistant you are to advancing light, let it be known that you are but one in a LONG line of previous and existing skeptics through out the history of the Elijah message. Your doubtful points are nothing new and they should be addressed by the same way they have always been addressed—with logic and truth by answers from VTH himself--

Read this for example this question that calls him to task-

Question: "Please explain E.W. 36: "I saw that Jesus would not leave the most holy place until every case was decided either for salvation or destruction," etc.

   Answer: The question which here arises is how is it possible to reconcile "The Shepherd's Rod" with the "Spirit of Prophecy," when the one seems to say that Jesus will leave the most holy place at Eze. 9, while the other says He will not leave until every case is decided?

   Without attempting to explain the event described in E.W. 36, we shall inquire only into the matter of whether it is possible in view of the E.W. statement for Jesus to "leave" the most holy place to execute the work of Eze. 9 before the general close of human probation.

   To begin with there is nothing in the word "leave" that connotes finality and permanence of condition or action. To leave once does not preclude the possibility of having left on previous occasions and then returned. Hence, on the logic of language alone, the mere fact that Sr. White "saw that Jesus would not leave the most holy until every case was decided," does not argue that He could therefore never have left the most holy place before, and that He cannot leave it to execute Eze. 9 on the church.

   However, we need not base our position entirely on logic. The Scriptures abundantly evidence the fact that Jesus is to dwell in the midst of His People at a time before every case is decided. We quote Zech. 2:10, 11 -- "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord. And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be My people."

   Verse 11 proves that in "that day" when He comes and dwells in the midst of Zion, "many nations shall be joined to the Lord," and every S.D.A. ought to know that there will be no nations joined to the Lord after probation is closed.

   Moreover, in Isa. 66:15, which reads, "Behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with His chariots like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire," (Verse 16) "For by fire and by His sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many," we see that when He comes with fire, it is to "plead" with all flesh, which proves that it is during probationary time, for after the close of probation God will plead with no flesh.

   Furthermore, Isa. 66:20 proves that it is in this time during which the Lord pleads with all flesh that "many nations" -- "all your brethren" -- are joined to the Lord. Hence, "in that day," the day of slaughter (Eze. 9; Isa. 63; Isa. 66), He "will come, and...dwell in the midst of "Zion."

   Therefore, it is clear that Jesus is to come and dwell in the midst of His people here on earth before the close of probation, as He dwelt with His people in the exodus movement, as is described in Isa. 4.

   Some have an altogether too narrow view of the Godhead. They think that in order for Jesus to carry on the investigative judgment in the heavenly sanctuary, He must confine Himself there every moment, and that even in case of necessity He cannot leave the place of the most holy apartment to do anything else until His mediatorial work is finished.

   Christ's departure from the holy place, at the consummation of the investigative judgment, is to result in His visible second advent, whereas the event of Eze. 9 and Zech. 2:9-11 is an invisible coming.

Gsll- Advancing truth is indeed what the Lord's Elijah message means to us! Let us embrace truth wherever it is found, even if it is from a message that has been contemptible by others.

I wrote: that I read the first book and part of the second, that's about 20 of his answers and only a couple of them (questions and answers) actually touched on the main issues that trouble me about Houteff's teachings. And yes, I do find his answer superficial in that they DO NOT ANSWER MY CONCERNS on issues I find contradict truth.

You then listed a whole bunch of questions most of which did not concern those issues.


Do we need more light? Of course! That's not an issue here. The issue is -- "is Houteff's interpretation genuine light, or a mixture of truth and error calculated to deceive"?

The former and latter rain --
I wasn't dealing with that either, and didn't intend to, but since you brought it up -- I realize I do take issue with his answer.

The "rain" is not a human person, as Houteff seems to connect it too. The "rain" is the HOLY SPIRIT given to each responsive person -- the "rain" is the power of the Divine member of the heavenly trio.

Houteff says the former rain was initially the message of the apostles, and in our time the "former rain" was Ellen White's writings, and the latter rain was Houteff's writings!!!

Yes, I do take issue with that!

For the former rain was the Holy Spirit descending upon the church at Penticost --that was the initial outpouring, but each person also receives a "former rain" of the Holy Spirit, at their conversion.

It is the Holy Spirit that works on their hearts and minds to grow in Christ and truth. Without the Holy Spirit, we are spiritually dead.
God gives His Holy Spirit to all who call upon Him, that is the individual "former rain".
Those who do not respond to this "former rain" will not be prepared to receive the "latter rain" at the end of time, which is the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

Question #9 is far from my belief --
No Adventist that I know teaches the latter rain isn't poured out till after probation closes. So I agree "We know of no such statement"

When did the Seals Begin?
That is a whole different study that would take many pages.
Houteff believes the seals cover all earth's history, I believe they cover the history of Christianity.

What is the seal?
His answer while true in one sense, is very simplistic, and bent to support his idea.
Yes, the seal marks the person as being under the blood of Christ and heir to eternal life. Thus indeed they escape the destruction of Ezekiel 9 -- which takes place during the seventh plague.

And that seal includes the Sabbath!
Yet YOU have told me Adventists will not be tested on that -- as all active Adventists except the 144,000 (which I assume you mean are those who accept Shepherd Rod doctrines) will be dead before Sunday laws even become an issue.

But the Sabbath IS THE TEST that will face all Adventists, and only those fully committed to following Christ will pass that test and will be calling others to fully dedicate their lives in obedience to Christ. That will bring the world to decision.

Yet there is more to that end time seal.

Revelation tells us
Rev. 3:12 I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

The NEW Jerusalem!!!!

IS NOT THE HARVEST THE END OF THE WORLD?

Question No. 23:

How can your teaching of the separation of tares from the wheat in the church be harmonized with the statement which says: "The tares and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest- and the harvest is the end of probationary time....When the work of the gospel is completed, there immediately follows the separation between the good and the evil, and the destiny of each class is forever fixed"?-- "Christ's Object Lessons," pp. 72, 123.

Finally a good question!!!



Notice that she says it TWICE here, the second time she says the harvest when the separation occurs is THE END OF THE WORLD.
Also the tares must first fully manifest themselves, that they have no likeness with the wheat.
Then they are gathered in bundles and burned.

-- To me it's plain,
The Sunday test will fully manifest between the professors and the genuine. There will be no question in anyone's minds which ones are fully dedicated to Christ and which ones aren't.
It is then -- at the end of the world that the unfaithful lose life while the fully committed receive eternal life at Christ's coming.


When the work of the gospel is completed --
But doesn't Houteff say that following the separation is when the loud cry of the gospel message goes out to world?


EGW says the harvest is the END OF PROBATION

Houteff counters with
"the "harvest" is the last part of probationary time

To EGW's comment that it is the end of the world,
Houteff writes:
"Thus to all practical purposes "the harvest" is indeed "the end of the world"--the end of the wicked."

What? Am I to understand that the death of unfaithful Adventists is the "end of the world", while the Sunday laws etc. and the image of the beast, and new converts having to hide in the mountains because they couldn't make it to temporal kingdom, are still future events according to what you have been sharing?




Then Houteff says that "Early Writings page 118 reveals the third angel does the harvesting"

Yet Early Writings says no such thing.

" I then saw the third angel. Said my accompanying angel, "Fearful is his work. Awful is his mission. He is the angel that is to select the wheat from the tares, and seal, or bind, the wheat for the heavenly garner." EW 118

That is not the harvest -- that is part of the sealing. The sealing must come before the harvest!

Read Revelation 14.
The harvest comes AFTER the third angel, when Christ rides forth with a sickle in hand.

Rev/ 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The more I read the more I'm convinced Houteff is mixing a truth with error. I'm sorry if this makes you think I don't want truth. But yes, I do want truth, and one statement here or there that seems to support his conclusions just can't hold up the whole of his interpretation. I just don't see his explanations answering the questions -- they just raise MORE questions.




Firstly I did NOT in any place say there would be no "church purification". The church will be purified when it is no longer popular or politically correct to be a Sabbath keeping Christian.
Please don't misrepresent me by saying I don't believe something just because I don't believe Houteff's idea of HOW or WHEN something will be done.
You have done that a number of times already.

I have repeatedly shared that I do believe the church will be purified, and YOU IGNORED THAT, because it does not fit Houteff's idea.

And yes, it is a shepherd rod idea that Ezekiel 9 takes place before the Sunday law. EGW DOES NOT teach that.

As to Esau representing the Adventist tares? Where does that come from?
Esau was (Jacob's) Israel's brother, never part of "the children of Israel" so I don't even see how it fits with your definitions of "Israel" being the Adventist church.

First you say "Israel" represents the Adventist church in which are mainly tares that must be killed BEFORE the gospel is preached as a loud cry to the world. Now you say Israel (which is Jacob's name) are wheat, and Israel's brother are the tares.

In ancient history the Edomites were enemies of Israel. They sided with Babylon when Neb destroyed Jerusalem.


What does EGW say about the text you shared?



Isaiah 63

63:1 Who [is] this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this [that is] glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.



63:2 Wherefore [art thou] red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people [there was] none with me:



for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
63:4 For the day of vengeance [is] in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
63:5 And I looked, and [there was] none to help; and I wondered that [there was] none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me;

To be perfectly honest sister I can't be wasting my time further with you because to date you still have not admitted that you have bore false witness in speaking of brother Houteff concerning the 1260 day prophecy. Produced no evidence for those false statements you made. This Public Commandment breaking I will have no more part of.

To state blatant false testimony and then happily skip along as if it doesn't matter is wrong before the Lord. To be a false witness against someone is being a Commandment breaker and that means unless repentance is made, a spot or stain may appear upon one's soul. (See Testimonies, vol. 5, p.214)

If you'd be willing to admit this then it shows a truth seeker instead of an agenda maker.

The Jews denied further advancing light because they were stuck on Moses, Today we as Adventists can get stuck to --on EGW. you do not expect any messenger of God even though the Lord and His messenger BOTH predicted one to come.

She said "somebody is to come" as the Elijah prophet. He would be known as an Interpreter. The Lord himself said someone is to come (man) as Elijah the prophet.

That's the big difference here . You are satisfied in Scripture and EGW as your truth. I am satisfied with Scripture , EGW AND the Elijah prophet sent to our church.


"We should beware of indulging the spirit which controlled the Jews." (Test. to Ministers, p.108)

That's fine.
You are now turning this into personal attacks against me rather than dealing with issues.
As to the 1260 days, I do not think I bore any false witness. I wrote that Florence, Victor Houteff's wife, after V.Houteff's death, enlarged on Houteff's comments on the 1260 days and set dates that didn't materialize. That was not false witness.

I also explained some days ago, where you, yourself brought up from Houteff's writings information on the 1260 day prophecy on another thread. (Which Ship...)

Here is that comment:


It's obvious from the reading of Houteff's comments on Rev. 12, that a person could easily assume that a future fulfillment of the 1260 days ends in the supposed "church cleansing" by the "earth opening up" and swallowing all the apostates (figurative of Ez. 9)

Also it appears the Shepherd Rod is not posting on the internet the issue of Symbolic Codes, Vol. 11, #1 that contains the information.

Florence Houteff's false 1260 day prophecy was based on the 1260 days pointing to the time when the SDA Church would be "purified" .

Ded- "You are now turning this into personal attacks against me rather than dealing with issues.
As to the 1260 days, I do not think I bore any false witness. I wrote that Florence, Victor Houteff's wife, after V.Houteff's death, enlarged on Houteff's comments on the 1260 days and set dates that didn't materialize. That was not false witness.

Gsll- again quite amazing. First, you are the one making "personal attacks" against an innocent man- Victor Houteff.

You state the Florence Houteff "enlarged" Houteff's comments on the 1260 days.

1) Show us the statements WRITTEN BY VICTOR HOUTEFF saying anything about the fulfillment of the 1260 days in the last days.Just where did you get that from?

2) Obviously you have made us to believe that Victor made predictions on this 1260 days and that Florence was furthering HIS predictions. Again , show us the written documentation, can you provide them?

3) Who set those dates that led to that great big fiasco in the Mt. Carmel camp--Victor or Florence?

You are attempting to place the fiasco of the 1959 failed prophetic 1260 day application on Victor Houteff in an attempt to portray him in a false light. This is FALSE witness.

Ded- " yourself brought up from Houteff's writings information on the 1260 day prophecy on another thread. "

Gsll-That has nothing to do with a specific application and time table of the 1260 days into the future. You are surmising that.

Ded-"It's obvious from the reading of Houteff's comments on Rev. 12, that a person could easily assume that a future fulfillment of the 1260 days ends in the supposed "church cleansing" by the "earth opening up" and swallowing all the apostates (figurative of Ez. 9)"

Gsll- A person could assume? Show us how that comes about in your assumption (in detail please). That would be something to see. So instead of Victor explaining it, we should just assume it? interesting.

Ded- "Also it appears the Shepherd Rod is not posting on the internet the issue of Symbolic Codes, Vol. 11, #1 that contains the information."

Gsll-- Again, your words show that you have very little knowledge of the Srod or it's history. Those "codes" were the ones apostate Florence Houteff published, and thus are not believe authenic by many Srod followers.

Ded- "Florence Houteff's false 1260 day prophecy was based on the 1260 days pointing to the time when the SDA Church would be "purified".

Gsll- So now you are distancing yourself on this issue. All of a sudden it's Florence Houteff's false 1260 prophecy(?)

You have attempted also to paint him and his teachings in a false light when you spoke about the real possibility that his followers could rise up and start slaying those in the church.

In researching Houteff's writings I found that he endorsed the standard SDA teachings of the 1260 days.


Notice below the words "The period with the Bible" . You'll see the 1260 days shown. (538 bc to 1798 ad)

By the way this is one of about 27 charts VTH drew.

False witness is nothing to wink at. please provide those writings showing VTH made that 1260 day application for end times. If not please, for you own soul's sake admit that this was false witness.

Are you so sure you are not the one doing the "false witnessing" by denying what I actually said and turning it into something different-- a BIG straw man, in order to shoot me down instead of dealing with the issues?

I said
.
I did NOT say Victor Houteff gave the amplified version.
Never once did I say Houteff predicted the 1959 date, which you now seem to say that I said, and then falsely accuse me of bearing false witness.

"Also it appears the Shepherd Rod is not posting on the internet the issue of Symbolic Codes, Vol. 11, #1 that contains the information."

GL&L Again, your words show that you have very little knowledge of the Srod or it's history. Those "codes" were the ones apostate Florence Houteff published, and thus are not believe authenic by many Srod followers."

I'm also fully aware of that, for that particular issue does give the details as to why Florence made the prediction.
Now the shepherd Rod people are hiding that.

Interestingly they do publish quite a number of HER codes after code 11#1 where she mainly publishes V.Houteff's sermons.



What I said was that Florence, showed FRUITS (that is RESULTS) of Houteff's message, by enlarging on something Houteff had said.
The FRUITS (after effects) of his messages are anything but positive.

So Houteff also agreed with 538- 1798, but was his wife right, when she wrote that he regarded those years only as a "type" and the real fulfilment is yet to come?

His explanation of Revelation 12 does seem to agree that he was looking at other explanations?

Why don't you explain how that message that YOU POSTED on the other thread (taken from Vol. 9 Symbolic Code Nos. 1-12. page 6, and Vol. 7 Symbolic Code Nos. 7-12. page 8 can fit into 538 -1798?

There he is dealing with Rev. 12 where the woman goes "into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent"

He then explains this PROPHECY of the woman in the wilderness for "time, times and half a time" as follows:

And this time I'll take it straight from V.Houteff's writings not your post.



It's clear, Houteff, changed the symbols.

1) The wilderness is not presented as mountains and forests where the church hides from the papal armies during the dark ages of 538 to 1798, but rather the wilderness is presented as the apostles going to Gentile nations to preach which began in 34 AD.

2) He then takes an incredible leap into the future saying the gospel can't really go to the Gentiles until "the great purge of Ezekiel 9" takes place.

Then he back tracks to Constantine's time (312 AD) as to when the flood came (unconverted pagans).

3) According to Houteff the flood has not yet been swallowed by the earth. And he then links it to wheat and tares in the church. And again states not until the purge of Ezekiel 9 (which he in other places defines as pretty much all active Adventists being killed) takes place, before the gospel can go in full light to the Gentiles.

This is a complete distortion of the 1260 days.

Nowhere does it fit into 538- 1798.
The woman was in the wilderness from 538 - 1798.

But if I understand Houteff's reasoning in this "code" he is saying the church was "in the wilderness" (Gentile communities) preaching to the Gentiles from AD 34 to 312 AD, then the flood of unconverted came into the church which continues to this day, only now the concern is concentrated only in the Adventist church, and not till the Adventist members are all killed, will the "few survivors" (shepherd rod believers?) finally preach to the Gentiles in full power.

So here already in Rev. 12 we see that Houteff is teaching

"the definite conviction that the time prophecy of Revelation 11:2-12 and Daniel 12:6, 7 [which is the same 1260 day/year period as in Rev. 12] could have met their fulfillment only in type from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. and that they have a latter-day fulfillment."-The Symbolic Code, vol. 11, no. 1, p. 3 (Italicized words mine)

Ded-- " Florence took over the leadership and bolstered up their confidence by amplifying V.Houteff's statements that the 1260 prophetic days would have a literal fulfillment, so she marked off 1260 literal days that ended sometime in 1959, when certain end time events supposedly were to transpire --- of course they didn't."

Gsll- How can she be "amplifying" something that he did not say? Again this is a twisting of the truth. If he taught something about it then that could possibly be the case but he taught nothing about it.

Further, you claim that the code vol. 11,no. 1 had some info on that latter day fulfillment of the 1260 day prophecy. There are two errors here with your thinking.

1) It is well known among serious students of the SRod that F. Houteff was promoting her agenda and many (including me) strongly believe that these "new codes" were tampered with.

2) VTH NEVER authorized ANY sermon address (code reports)to be published that she published. They were not to be published and he did not want them published. VTH specifically published many addresses and oversaw them meticulously. She took over and started so much trouble in the movement.

Additionally you quote-- "the definite conviction that the time prophecy of Revelation 11:2-12 and Daniel 12:6, 7 [which is the same 1260 day/year period as in Rev. 12] could have met their fulfillment only in type from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. and that they have a latter-day fulfillment."-The Symbolic Code, vol. 11, no. 1, p. 3 (Italicized words mine)

Let's play the devil's advocate and say VTH did make this statement. Does these words give any specific information on that 1260 year prophecy? of-course not. No specific future dates can be imposed upon that statement, only if one wishes to impose them themselves!

I suggest you read this post to learn more on this issue that you talk about yet know very little:

Symbolic codes (the historical facts)

Ded-"Never once did I say Houteff predicted the 1959 date, which you now seem to say that I said, and then falsely accuse me of bearing false witness."

Gsll- if you'll read that quote again. you clearly imply that it was the original VTH statements that Florence was expanding on and showing the people--which is false.

read this clearly--Victor Houteff DID NOT teach of ANY latter day 1260 day prophecy fulfillment --understand?

Your twisting and squirming here is not helping. why don't you just say you were wrong and should have left his name out of that quote (and extremely important historical point) and then said that it was Florence's teaching that brought the people to the Mt. Carmel camp in Waco during 1959.

She also was THE CAUSE of people like your friend's parents who "lost everything" - do you understand this as well?

Again, to show you history that you should already know, if you wish to speak authoritatively on this subject, there were a sizable amount of original members of the camp who protested Florence's teaching and made a valiant effort to warn the people not to fall for the failed predictions. They decided to leave the camp well before this fiasco happened and those who came or remained, did so with their eyes and ears 'wide open".

Your attempt to continue to paint Victor in a false light and smear job is not fair and upright especially for a "Christian" who wants to get to the bottom of the issue--truth.

Again, you are continually ignoring previous statements such as your attempt to paint VTH as a teacher of some teachings that could lead some people to start shooting up people in the church (thinking they are doing God's will) -how utterly foolish and false. Can God be happy with this providing false public smearing of a man you know little about?

See the Wikipedia article, which shows he was strongly opposed to any such teachings. It's amazing how the anti- Rod people continue to stick with the same outlandish views of the SRod teachings. DSDA-Wikipedia


"True confession is always of a specific character, and acknowledges particular sins. They may be of such a nature as only to be brought before God, they may be wrongs that should be confessed before individuals who suffered injury through them, or they may be of a general kind that should be known in the congregation of the people. But all confession should be definite and to the point, acknowledging the very sins of which you are guilty." (Test. for the church, vol. 5, p.639)

".. very few who become involved in error are willing to humble themselves by renouncing their errors and accepting the truth when it is made known." (Tract 5,p.7)

GL&L, Dedication is being very sincere and generous for you here. You should listen to her advice.

I didn't see her commit any sin or offense against you here, and for you to demand for her to apologize seems more like a taunt than a justified response.

This Victor Houteff was not led by the Spirit of God. His brand of Adventism is the most sinister of all the fringe sects. But those in the Sheppard's Rod movement are still to be viewed as brothers until they cross the line and start to rail on the truth as shown by the Lord's servant Mrs White, which is inevitably the case when their doctrines are viewed in full light of the Spirit of Prophecy and scripture.

I hate to say this Godsloveandlaw, but it sounds as if you are about to cross that line with these statements. Please reconsider your stand. Dedication is presenting a very good case here for you. You should take heed, lest you cross the line.

And once again you totally fail to show how Victor Houteff's description of Rev. 12 fits the 1260 prophecy.
Those 1260 years end when the "earth swallows the flood", yet Houteff says the earth hasn't swallowed the flood yet -- it is still future.


That indicates VERY STRONGLY that Houteff believed the 1260 days could have met their fulfillment only in type from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. and that they have a latter-day literal fulfillment. (As well as placing them in the past starting in AD 34)

I quoted where he said that explanation of Rev 12 fulfils the prophecy. How can it fulfill the prophecy of the woman in the wilderness for 1260 days when he completely changes the symbols and the time.


And again you try to make me say things I never said, in order to bolster Houteff, and avoid the real issues.
Why are you trying to accuse me of saying Houteff set the date, when all along I have fully acknowledged that those dates were set after his death.


Of course the DATE 1959 was set AFTER Houteff was dead, he did not set that date.

Yet how can you deny, that what his wife, with the help of others on the "committee" predicted resulted from her beliefs in Houteff's messages.
Her explanation followed Houteff's outline of end time events.

She was married to the guy from the time she was 17 till she was about 35, probably totally submerged in his theology.

My whole mention of those events was to show THE FRUIT of his message. What it caused OTHER people to do.

After Houteff's death in 1955, people were disheartened and leaving the Shepherd Rod organization. Houteff never authorized anything to be done after his death as he fully believed he was the one to lead his flock to the temporal kingdom in Palestine.
So the leadership had to make plans without his "authorization". Why criticize Florence for printing her husbands sermons in the "symbolic codes" that were sent out to followers?


According to the shepherd rod speaks website it wasn't until
"In early 1959 true “100% Rod only” believers rose up and opposed Florence Houteff and her false teachings. In 1961, this group separated from Florence".

So apparently they believed the time prophecy from 1955 until they realized it wasn't going to happen in April of 1959? Then they turned on Florence to save their own face????

The 1000 or so people at Mt. Carmel were disillusioned, many left, the rest welcomed Adventist leaders to speak to them.
Many friendly meetings were held, where questions and answers were exchanged.
Florence herself realized the errors of the teachings from her studies with Seventh-day Adventists and was convinced of the errors of Houteff's message. The organization was dissolved. So of course the Rod believers who wanted to continue had to "reorganize" themselves. There were many "splinter" groups. The biggest was the "branch" group.





What are the time prophecies in Revelation 11:2-11 and Daniel 12:7 ?

Surely you are not telling me the "time prophecies" in Rev. 11:2-12 and Daniel 12:6,7 have nothing to do with the 1260 days?

11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Rev. 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,

Rev. 12.6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev. 12.14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


That's the 1260 day/year time prophecy!
It is repeated at least SEVEN times in Daniel and Revelation.

The 1.260 day/year prophecy is repeated seven times as Dedication says, which signifies completion, a prophecy that extends to the 'time of the end', when exact time prophecies are finished.

But that does not mean the end of prophecies has come. Joel 1:2-7 says there would be five generations of the last days, when the word of the Lord would be corrupted by those generations, "Tell ye your (1) children of it, and let your children (2) tell their children (3), and their children another generation(4)."

The 'Shepherds Rod' is part of that corruption as well as every other movement within the Remnant not ordained by God such as the 'Sacred Name' movement etc.

The prophecy of Joel 1-2 states that the end time people of God would be influenced by the "nation (who) is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion". This is the influence of Satan within the Adventist/ Remnant church through all the fallen influences.

The ministers of our church have been corrupted by evil influences, and that is symbolized by "That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten."

We are in the fifth generation after the Midnight Cry and this is the closest you will ever be able to determine the date of the end of Judgment. The sealing is now. The 144,000 are being sealed and the end of judgment for the living has already begun. The elders of our church are those who are sealed first. Soon the 144,000 number will be complete and then the Sunday law will come and they will proclaim the loud cry and the vast multitude will come out of Babylon.

This is not a Shepherds Rod teaching, it is from the Spirit of Prophecy.

The 144,000 must be sealed before the Loud Cry which happens when the Sunday law comes.

Joel 1:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:

16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

Joel 2 begins with the 144,000 proclaiming the Loud Cry...

2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong (144,000); there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

12 Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:

20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army (Image to the beast/ Beast), and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain (for the vast multitude), and the latter rain (For the 144,000) in the first month.

24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.

25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. (everything destroyed by the previous four generations)

26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.


This is all about to happen, we are the fifth generation since the Midnight Cry. This prophecy will be fulfilled within this generation.

Peace.

James- I didn't see her commit any sin or offense against you here, and for you to demand for her to apologize seems more like a taunt than a justified response.

Gsll brother I'm not sure you've been reading closely here. I have never "demanded" a apology but rather said that she should apologize to the Lord for making those wrong and untruthful statements.It is not me she should worry about here, it's the bearing of false witnessing that may affect her future that she should dwell on. Posting false information on someone is not right. EGW says if it's done publicly it must be cleared publicly.


James- This Victor Houteff was not led by the Spirit of God. His brand of Adventism is the most sinister of all the fringe sects.

Gsll- sorry to read this. I won't waste my time defending this message. carry on brother.

One important point I'd like to make is that I do not dislike Dedication as a person perse, it's only what she has tried to post as what Victor Houteff taught or believed in, that was not true.

Do we not know that Christ is "the way the truth and the life"?

So to stick up for truth is to stick up for Christ.

Also James, remember that there is a SERIOUS message that the Lord has and is sending to us. This message is prophesied as being almost totally ignored and rejected. Many will rise up against it.

It's a message TO US. Not to the world.

"I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen. I was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the true Witness to the Laodiceans. It will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver of the testimony, and it will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. This straight testimony some will not bear. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.

I saw that the testimony of the true Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs, has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance, and all that truly receive it, will obey it, and be purified."(GC, chapter 32)

I ask-- are we searching for this "rejected " message from the Lord. Are we searching for the possibility that the "Elijah" has come to our church?

Or are we "rich and increased with good" not thinking we need any more messages of truth?

Inspiration said --
"Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment. Yet, when a view of Scripture is presented,
many do not ask, Is it true--in harmony with God's word? but, By whom is it advocated? and unless it comes through the very channel that pleases them, they do not accept it.

So thoroughly satisfied are they with their own ideas that they will not examine the Scripture evidence with a desire to learn, but refuse to be interested, merely because of their prejudices.

The Lord often works where we least expect Him; He surprises us by revealing His power through instruments of His own choice, while He passes by the men to whom we have looked as those through whom light should come. God desires us to receive the truth upon its own merits--because it is truth." (Test. to Min. p.105-106)

GL&L, you have seen the posts that I claim to have been inspired. Have you not seen how I have been given a passion to see that the testimony is fully heeded? But I have also tested the message of the Shepards Rod, and the majority of the message does not ring true according to the Holy Spirit that taught me about the Sabbath directly having never heard of it before. Everything that God taught me was in the Testimony. Nothing He said contradicted what He had told Mrs White. So when I read things from fringe groups that do not ring true I must be honest. The truth is that much of those teachings contradict the pioneers of the Adventist Church who had themselves been rebuked for false doctrines, they had been humbled and if they refused they would be passed by (Jones & Wagoner). You must realize that there will never be a calling out. The S Rod community is a dissaffected sect, the majority are rebellious against the true church, like they are trying to change the SDA church from without. If you are sincere you could admit that.
When someone was not in the Spirit Mrs White was not affraid to address it. But she never counselled them to follow their own path within the church. That is what spirit founded the S Rod church.

Brother James,

I respect your beliefs, however strongly i disagree.

Let me repeat something that you and every other anti- Rod believer must seriously ask themselves.

1) The LORD specifically said that in the very last days he would send a prophet (Elijah) to His remnant people, yes or no?

2) If this is true, have we been watchful of some man to come to our church? Or is it that the LORD was just giving some predictions He didn't mean?

3) Ellen White also specifically told us of a man, who would come in the spirit and power of Elijah. He would come after her, true or false?

4) She pointed out that he would be rejected and that he would be known as an interpreter of Scripture, true or false?

5) She also said that his message would be countered by men who would not have it and would try and replace it with their own, true or false?

6) SOP says clearly that an end time message from Jesus , to us the Laodiceans,which the destiny of the church hangs, would large be ignored and rejected, do you have any clue what that "rejected" message of such importance is to us?

7) Jesus said that we are "rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing", does this mean we profess we don't need His last message of truth?

Please answer these questions. A specific "rejected" message is prophesied to be THE true message from the Lord. We must seriously search for what this largely rejected message is.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

What does it mean?

"As a prophet, John (the Baptist) was "to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; (Luke 1:16) to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." In preparing the way for Christ's first advent, he was a representative of those who are to prepare a people for our Lord's second coming. DA 100




I do not believe God was talking about A man, but of the "spirit and power of Elijah" being poured out to spread the message to prepare for Christ's coming.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: and on My servants and on My handmaidens I will pour out in those days of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy." {Acts 2:19

"John came in the spirit and power of Elijah to proclaim the first advent of Jesus. I was pointed down to the last days and saw that John [the Baptist] represented those who should go forth in the spirit and power of Elijah to herald the day of wrath and the second advent of Jesus." {EW 155.1}





False, she does not specifically tell us a man prophet will come.
Mrs. White herself was asked this question and responded that she had not been given any information on that subject, and disappointed a lot of "hopeful" successors.
She neither says there will or won't be.

But she does mention numerous times that a lot of false prophets would arise.


There is one quote SRod people like to use, but it is neither specific nor clear. In that quote in 1 SM 412 she is speaking of the critical reception HER messages were receiving. The "he" refers back to the original Elijah. Thus she was part of the Elijah message that God's people are to give in the last days in preparation to Christ's second coming.



It's the same unclear, not definite quote in SM 412 that I believe you are referring to.
Yes, she does mention people will reject the truth. (Not a person) Thus it's referring more to people rejecting the truths in her writings. In the sentences before and after the sentence SRod's like to quote, she is talking about people criticizing her writings.



She refers to the Advent message -- the three angel's message, the message of righteousness by faith, the message to the seventh church etc. etc. There is no mystery that our doctrines are being watered down and replaced by many a wind that the enemy is blowing around.





" I saw that the testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance; all who truly receive it will obey it, and be purified. {CET 176.2}

Notice she isn't saying it's some DIFFERENT message yet to come here, but refers to it in the past tense -- a message that the church already has but which is not being heeded by many.



The message defines what is needed.
eye salve for discernment between right and wrong, truth and error.
Gold of faith, strong enough to stand tall in Christ, though all the world is off to some supposed earthly solution, in which they ridicule and persecute those who do not join.

The robe of Christ's righteousness. For all our righteousness is as filthy rags. Too often people think knowledge is all that matters and since they "know" a lot about religion and believe they are rich and in need of nothing, not realizing their righteousness is like filthy rags.

The biggest poverty in the church is a poverty due to not making Christ first, last and best in our lives.

The specific message that will bring on the latter rain was given in 1888, and concerned Christ Our Righteousness.

"The love of God will strengthen the soul, and through the virtue of the merits of the blood of Christ we may stand unscathed amid the fire of temptation and trial; but no other help can avail to save but Christ, our righteousness, who is made unto us wisdom and sanctification and redemption. True sanctification is nothing more or less than to love God with all the heart, to walk in his commandments and ordinances blameless. Sanctification is not an emotion, but a heaven-born principle that brings all the passions and desires under the control of the Spirit of God; and this work is done through our Lord and Saviour. {ST, May 19, 1890 par. 4}

Houteff's message isn't so much to "prepare for our Lord's second advent" but to prepare a people to accept some other created being -- *an antitypical David" who supposedly will rule in a temporal kingdom in Palestine prior to Christ's second coming.

That is not the Elijah message -- that is a modified version of the last day deception

Ded- quoted-"As a prophet, John (the Baptist) was "to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; (Luke 1:16) to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." In preparing the way for Christ's first advent, he was a representative of those who are to prepare a people for our Lord's second coming. DA 100 "


Gsll- True that she said. But does that negate this--

"Prophecy must be fulfilled. The Lord says: "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord." Somebody is to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, and when he appears, men may say: "You are too earnest, you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way. Let me tell you how to teach your message."(Test. to Min. p.475)

Of course the Elijah is to have helpers. This prophecy, I believe points to ALL who decide to take up the Elijah message today. So in that context I agree. Brother Houteff made that so clear in quoting that exact ref. you said. But she said 'when HE appears" indicating future tense. Additionally, his work obviously will be of an interpretative nature.

Additionally we strongly agree that the true message of Elijah and his helpers is of a reformative nature and the calling out of sins within the church.

Ded-- I do not believe God was talking about A man, but of the "spirit and power of Elijah" being poured out to spread the message to prepare for Christ's coming.

Gsll- Your beliefs and what GOD SAID appear at odds. He said the following--

"Behold ,I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." (Mal. 4:5)

Now, closely look at the words of GOD. Notice He "will". That means it's a promise. Notice it is a MAN "Elijah" who is to be a "Prophet". Not "Elijahs".

Now look closely at when this prophet comes-- "before the great and dreadful day of the Lord". That means in the very last days.

Here is something to notice as well. If YOUR explanation was to make sense and the LORD was to confirm YOUR idea. It would have said--

"Behold, I will send you the MESSAGE of Elijah, or similar words. But your taking the true plain instructive words out of God's word is disingenuous. The LORD knows EXACTLY what to say, you and I don't! let's let HIM tell us , ok?

Satan does the same thing "Surely you WILL NOT die." When God said "Surely you WILL die."

So bottom line, a male prophet is predicted to come , not from EGW here, but FROM THE LORD.

"The language of the Bible should be explained according to it's obvious meaning" (GC, p.598)

Ded quoted- "John came in the spirit and power of Elijah to proclaim the first advent of Jesus. I was pointed down to the last days and saw that John [the Baptist] represented those who should go forth in the spirit and power of Elijah to herald the day of wrath and the second advent of Jesus." {EW 155.1}

Gsll-Agreed. This simply confirms that the work of Elijah was not to be one man. That is not to preclude that one man was "to come" as God promised in Mal 4:5. You quote that EW reference trying to delete or change His promise in Mal. 4:5

Ded- .. she does not specifically tell us a man prophet will come.
Mrs. White herself was asked this question and responded that she had not been given any information on that subject, and disappointed a lot of "hopeful" successors.
She neither says there will or won't be.

Gsll-- Read again Test. to Min. p.475. Also Mal. 4:5 which you plainly deny does not mean what it said.

Ded- It's the same unclear, not definite quote in SM 412 that I believe you are referring to.

Gsll- No, it's mainly Test. to Min. p.475. She says that this Elijah will be rejected because he does not interpret the Scriptures correctly. What you do with Mal. 4:5 you try to do with this quote as well.

here is some information you may not be aware of. The origninal quote in Test. to Min. p. 475 was LEFT ALONE from 1890 to 1962! Yes, the leaders and shakers came in and added that asterisk to the quote basically saying that the "he" was meant as a "she". The forefathers knew she wasn't talking of herself and dared not meddle with the meaning.

SRod was taking being taken seriously among many people (laity) so they decided to make that addition. Uninspired men adding to Inspiration--SHAME.


Ded- quoted- " I saw that the testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance; all who truly receive it will obey it, and be purified." {CET 176.2}

Gsll- For one who has said we must look at the context you sure ignore context in this case.

First, notice it is under the title "The Shaking".

Notice also that it is a vision she is describing. She keeps saying "I saw". This whole reference is speaking of the future time of the shaking. In other word's NOW.

Further let's look at the PRECEDING verse. "I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen. I was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the true Witness to the Laodiceans."

Does "would be caused"(future) mean "has been caused"(past) like you are trying to make us believe?

This message from the True Witness is being throw out and nearly "entirely disregarded". She is looking back in vision here. Obviously being spiritually in the future she sees our time.She continues her seeing future sights and events for many paragraphs after as well.


Ded- eye salve for discernment between right and wrong, truth and error.
Gold of faith, strong enough to stand tall in Christ, though all the world is off to some supposed earthly solution, in which they ridicule and persecute those who do not join.

The robe of Christ's righteousness. For all our righteousness is as filthy rags. Too often people think knowledge is all that matters and since they "know" a lot about religion and believe they are rich and in need of nothing, not realizing their righteousness is like filthy rags.

Gsll- Rev. 3:15-17 -- "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of My mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked."

"What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right, when they are all wrong! The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God.

While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition, the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness. The testimony, so cutting and severe, cannot be a mistake, for it is the True Witness who speaks, and his testimony must be correct." -- Testimonies, Vol. 3, pp. 252-253.

When people are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked as are the Laodiceans, and do not know it, then the only title that can be given them is "Deceived," yet ironically the Laodiceans are the people most fearful of being deceived!

They think themselves in need of nothing, although the Lord Himself says that they are in need of everything. They think themselves rich and increased with goods. What goods? -- Not money, I am sure, for right along we hear them calling for money, even begging for it.

It is with supposedly sufficient Bible Truth that they are satisfied. They are confident that they have all the revealed Truth they need to take them through to the Kingdom. This is their great deception.

They do not know their great need of Truth now while the Church is about to enter upon the final phase of her work. They do not realize that this next phase of the Church's work cannot be carried on with her old phase of Truth.

The Church now can no more do without the additional message (Early Writings, pg. 277) than could she at the closing of the Old Testament era have entered the Christian dispensation with the Old Testament ceremonial Truth isolated from the Gospel.

But, sad to say, to speak to the Laodiceans of more Truth than what they already have is to incur their greatest displeasure: and the idea that they need no more Truth, that they have it all, and that someone is always trying to deceive them, has been drilled into them as deeply as it can be drilled.

This has made them prejudiced and suspicious of everyone who dares approach them with something new. This is what puts them in as bad a position as the Jews of old. Plain it is that if the Laodiceans choose thus to remain lukewarm, satisfied in their deception, they shall be spued out and forever left without hope. (TG, Vol. 2, P.18-19)




.

That is YOUR interpretation of the text in Malachi. Your thoughts are not His thoughts.

You wrote: "What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right, when they are all wrong! The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. "


Could that describe you and other SRod followers? Or do you think it just describes others?

You seem to be saying that the "deplorable state" is a non-acceptance of Houteff, whereas the True Witness in Revelation is referring to the miserable state of lacking righteousness in Christ.
The state of thinking one has everything and not recognizing the lack of "eyesalve" "gold of faith" and "robe" of Christ's righteousness.

Who is the True Witness?
"These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot."
The TRUE WITNESS is Christ Himself. He is the AMEN, He is the One through Whom all things were created. He is the one who really KNOWS our condition.


You seem to be saying a person must sense a NEED for Houteff, but in Revelation, the True Witness is talking about needing salvation in Christ.

We have NEED of Christ --
We need to be right with Him!
Hungering and thirsting after His righteousness.

Not hungering for some strange message of an antitypical David -- a man ruling over in Palestine who stands in the place of Christ and sets up a temporal kingdom here on earth.

Houteff's message isn't so much to "prepare for our Lord's second advent" but to prepare a people to accept some other created being -- *an antitypical David" who supposedly will rule in a temporal kingdom in Palestine prior to Christ's second coming.

That is not the Elijah message -- that is a modified version of the last day deception

This is what I find so deficient and lacking in our correspondence. I make many solid points and they are ignored. There is no acknowledgement even when you know I am right. You'd think that if you believe what I say is false, then you'd point out why. Likewise I'd like to do the same but this is not possible upon ignorance of points.

EGW has a great quote--

"When their questions have been fairly answered, they turn the subject and bring up another point to avoid acknowledging the truth."(Test. to Min. p.108)

We can proceed in the original format. Remember when you replied like this??

***********

question and points addressed on this point

***********

question and answer addressed on this point

***********

and so forth.

***********

Why do I think this is important? Because we want to arrive at truth, yes? We are not here to promote "our" agenda are we?

Do you not realize that both you and I can learn things from the other, things we did not know?

Other wise it becomes as EGW said an jump around exercise and with no real goal to arrive at -Truth. Which is Jesus.(John 14:6)

Is it possible to return to that clear format with you? If so I would be happy to keep my end of the deal and address each and every point you wish to make.

Are you sure you want to find truth, or is your aim just to lead people through Houteff's studies?

Is your aim to convince us that Houteff is a prophet, or is it to present Biblical truth? I have lots of reasons why I do not agree with Houteff's teachings. I see HUGE contradictions and I've voiced them.

To find the TRUTH one has to look at the BIGGER PICTURE involved in the subject under discussion. And when the end destination is so obviously way off -- why look for remote little statements from EGW to try to prove that she supports something SHE OBVIOUSLY does not support?

And remember you have been overwhelming things with Houteff's writings on all sorts of subjects to confuse the issues.

I read several of them in the last few weeks and they did not convince me, in fact it did the opposite.
I hope and pray that you will see the error in those teachings for they do not lead to Christ in the end, but to an earthly kingdom where someone reigns in the place of Christ.

Anytime we focus on the teachings of a man other than Christ, question marks are raised in my mind. When we have "a more sure word of prophecy," why should we give so much heed to a mere man?

Study the Word of God. It will be all we ever need.

(Note of clarification: "word of God" includes all inspired writings of God's prophets, e.g. Ellen White and the Bible.)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Ded- Are you sure you want to find truth, or is your aim just to lead people through Houteff's studies?

Gsll-- I want the truth, and wherever that is found (upon close investigation) I'm on board.

Ded- Is your aim to convince us that Houteff is a prophet, or is it to present Biblical truth? I have lots of reasons why I do not agree with Houteff's teachings. I see HUGE contradictions and I've voiced them.

Gsll-- My aim is to show FIRST the Scriptures. And in them we find the all Truth. Sure you have reasons, but just be aware, you may soon find someday that you have ignored the "rejected" message that we now know is the TRUE message from the Lord.

I see total harmony and this is why I want to share what the Elijah message encompasses. But for you to come and respond back and yet when I have shown you your error, and you by- pass that then that tells mes it's not truth you're seeking but an agenda (your ideas of truth).

Ded- I read several of them in the last few weeks and they did not convince me, in fact it did the opposite.
I hope and pray that you will see the error in those teachings for they do not lead to Christ in the end, but to an earthly kingdom where someone reigns in the place of Christ.

Gsll- all I can say is that one of us is being deceived. For there is only ONE Spirit of Truth, and it's this One that GUIDES US INTO ALL TRUTH. (John 16:13)

Ok , again, you did not answer my questions. Do you want to go over point by point with the mentioned outline, or not?

Gl&l wrote:-- My aim is to show FIRST the Scriptures. And in them we find the all Truth. Sure you have reasons, but just be aware, you may soon find someday that you have ignored the "rejected" message that we now know is the TRUE message from the Lord.


The "REJECTED MESSAGE", mentioned in EGW's writings is not about Houteff's message, the message that must take root is the message of Righteousness by Faith in Christ.

The message of Righteousness in Christ is the TRUE message from the Lord. The true message which the church needs was given in 1888 when the latter rain began to fall, but the thorns and thistles and rocks of life have been choking out that message. We need to sense our need for Christ, and hunger and thirst after His righteousness, that His righteousness can take deep root in our lives.




GL&L wrote: when I have shown you your error, and you by- pass that then that tells mes it's not truth you're seeking but an agenda (your ideas of truth).


I by pass some of your comments because I've already explained it several times in previous posts and find it just isn't accepted by you. Why go round and round forever on something we just don't agree upon. You have not convinced me that I am in error, but rather I am even more convinced that Houteff's basic message (though clothed with a layer of truth) is a very deceptive ERROR




GL&L wrote: all I can say is that one of us is being deceived. For there is only ONE Spirit of Truth, and it's this One that GUIDES US INTO ALL TRUTH. (John 16:13)


I can agree on that point.



GL&L wrote Ok , again, you did not answer my questions. Do you want to go over point by point with the mentioned outline, or not?

Posts were getting far too long to answer everything in the few hours I have in the evening. (I like to do other things during that time as well)

Nor do I want to be led down a path that restricts the broader picture from view.
When each persons broader picture on a subject is completely different, trying to convince someone of a particular detail in one person's picture just doesn't work.
One can actually agree on the WORDS used, but totally disagree with the interpretation or conclusions attached.

Keeping on one subject would be good, though it seems subjects keep merging into one another