Re: Did EGW predict another prophet would arise?

"Houteff, you, the Shepard's Rod and I were all wrong."

Do not think so MS.The whole purpose of these words--'Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and dreadful day of the Lord" --can not return void.

When we read (Test. to Min. p.475) we notice that EGW says this "Elijah" will be known for his interpretations (yet the people will claim they are not correct). And what interpretations would that be? Obviously on Scripture pertaining to the "great and dreadful day of the Lord". In other words-- Revelation among other Scripture.

So for one to say that EGW was to be the final say on prophecy is to deny that any "Elijah" was to "restore" anything. That is one of the reasons we showed the Zech. 4 prophecy. There are only two pipes (messengers-interpreters) authorized by God to take the "oil"
from the "trees" the NT and OT. As this prophecy was not completely interpreted until 1939 (She did touch on it in PK, p.593-594), it shows that God intended one more messenger along with EGW to do the interpretive work on Scripture.

That's why we as SDA need to ask, who in our history (after EGW) has had such voluminous interpretations, and at the same time been denounced as a false interpreter?

"No prophet of God has ever forged a complete prophetic chain of events, with no links missing. It has taken many inspired writers to complete the long chain of prophecy. The mind, therefore which takes the position that Sister White has done what no prophet in or out of the Bible has ever done, does so at the utter disregard of actual Biblical procedure and also of revealed Truth.

She herself says that "no man, however honored of Heaven, has ever attained to a full understanding of the great plan of redemption, or even to a perfect appreciation of the Divine purpose in the work for his own time. Men do not fully understand what God would accomplish by the work which He gives them to do; they do not comprehend, in all its bearings, the message which they utter in His name."--The Great Controversy, p. 343." (Answerer, vol. 2, Q-42)

Let us not forget also that the last message from the True witness will be "lightly esteemed if not entirely dis regarded."

Instead of picking that one aspect out as your perceived error, what do you think about the other 95%? For instance, the explanation of:

10.Revelation 17:11
Was ----Before the millennium.

Is Not ----During the millennium

He Is The Eighth ----He is the eighth beast—all the beast from Daniel 7 and Revelation:

VTH illuminated subjects that EGW touched lightly or not at all, like the pre-millennial kingdom, we hope to post a couple reports on that soon.

As far as the 1888 message,I would rather you ask any specific question.Thanks GLL

This excerpt is from a larger talk, found in 1SM400-416. Who is it that EGW is referring to as "Elijah"? See 1SM412. HINT: It was not Houteff.

The two olive trees in Zech 4 are the same two anointed ones described in Revelation 11, the two anointed witnesses and these two are a figure of the church under the power of the latter rain. These measure the entire church with the Elijah message. They are commissioned to measure the temple and worshipers but to leave out the outer court, the court of the gentiles, a symbol of Babylon. This fulfills Malachi's prophecy that the Lord will suddenly come to His temple and purify the sons of Levi. The call is made to all but only those in Babylon who respond and leave all human wisdom and worship behind will be purified and stand with the remnant as priests and kings.

Ellen White never presumed to assert a claim to be one of the two anointed. Why? One reason is that in her commentary on Revelation 10 and 11 (the two should be read together) she places these scenes in the future. Since she believed they applied to the future they couldn't apply to her. She knew and taught that parts of the prophecies were still sealed and so she pointed us to them and urged their study so that we would recognize their fulfillment when the time comes. When you're able consider doing a study of her position on the seven sealed book and the sealed thunders. All of us have more to learn.

Concerning the two witnesses the prophet declares further: "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." "Thy word," said the psalmist, "is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." Revelation 11:4; Psalm 119:105. The two witnesses represent the Scriptures of the Old and the New Testament. Both are important testimonies to the origin and perpetuity of the law of God. Both are witnesses also to the plan of salvation. The types, sacrifices, and prophecies of the Old Testament point forward to a Saviour to come. The Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament tell of a Saviour who has come in the exact manner foretold by type and prophecy. {GC 267.1}

APL --"This excerpt is from a larger talk, found in 1SM400-416. Who is it that EGW is referring to as "Elijah"? See 1SM412. HINT: It was not Houteff."

There is history behind this trick. For instance the quote (p.475, which is a compilation of the different references) was left alone with no asterisk put by it from 1890 to 1961. Even during Houteff's day the GC didn't dare mess with it as they ALL knew well that EGW was not talking of herself.

Further to believe EGW was saying "she" was the Elijah to come makes us call both her and God a liar. The Mal. 4:5 Scripture specifically says He will send "Elijah" not "Deborah" or any other woman for that matter.

Again, we must follow counsel -- "The language of the Bible should be explained according to it's obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed." (GC, p.598-599)

Do you see any symbol or figure used in that promise? I see a "Elijah"--a man to come. Not once in all of Scripture did God refer to a woman as a male name--search and see.

Further, EGW said "when HE appears" are you saying she meant to say "she" and that this is not referring to a future time ? Again, as one who wrote that we are to take the Bible as it reads, she certainly, as a prophetess knew well that it applied to her as well. No where in SDA history do we find any SDA teaching that she was talking of herself until 1961. 71 years without adding to her unmistakable meaning. 1961 was significant because the GC leaders were very much aware of their opportunity due to the fact that Florence Houteff had recently made the false perdiction of Ezek. 9 occurring in 1959.

Again, they did not dare change her writing on this subject (p.475) while brother Houteff was alive (up to 1955), and even though they well knew the VTH used that many times in his writings. You'd think if they knew he was using that reference and they thought it was false intepretation they would have spoken up and even added their asterisk at that time (1930-1955)

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Matt. 11:15)

My greater point was not addressed--what do you do with the "Elijah" to come (Mal. 4:5)?

Are you denying it has a literal latter day application (before the great and dreadful day of the Lord)? Are you saying Ellen White was the last prophet to come?

"The prophet Malachi declares, "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord; and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers." Here the prophet describes the character of the work. Those who are to prepare the way for the second coming of Christ, are represented by faithful Elijah, as John came in the spirit of Elijah to prepare the way for Christ's first advent. {CD 71.1}

EGW does not say the "coming of Elijah" is the coming of a man. She points to "those who are preparing the way" as representing this last day coming.

Let me give you, brother Mark, an example of the Rod "restoring" truth, of which EGW saw but dimly.

In speaking about the final countdown events leading up to Christ's death and resurrection, we read--

"...the only disagreement between "The Shepherd's Rod" and "The Desire of Ages" on this subject, is that "The Desire of Ages" says that "On the second day of the feast, the first fruits of the year's harvest, a sheaf of barley, was presented before the Lord" ("The Desire of Ages," p. 77), which places the first feast of the Passover on the Sabbath (Num. 28:17), thus making the slaying of the Lamb and the fourteenth day (Ex. 12:6) fall on Friday; whereas, "The Shepherd's Rod" places the slaying of the lamb and the fourteenth day on Wednesday, the first feast on Thursday, the second feast on Friday, and so on.

Therefore, in view of the fact that "The Shepherd's Rod" and "The Desire of Ages" are here at variance, and that we believe both to be inspired, we must necessarily go to the Bible to prove which is the correct day, and how to harmonize the two volumes. Thus, laying aside both "The Shepherd's Rod" and "The Desire of Ages," we go for witnesses to Mark and John:

We quote John 19:14, "And it was the preparation of the Passover, and about the sixth hour: and he [Pilate] saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!" Mark 15:33 witnesses thus: "And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour."

In the above scriptures, two "sixth" hours are presented. In the first instance, Jesus was in Pilate's judgment hall, but in the second, He was hanging on the cross at which time the sun's face was veiled and the whole earth was covered with darkness. Inasmuch as circumstances clearly show that, these two "sixth" hours were twelve hours apart, and inasmuch as the sun darkened while Jesus was hanging on the cross, the latter sixth hour must have been in the day time, whereas, the former sixth hour must have been in the night time.

Furthermore, the ancient time piece was regulated by sunset at twelve o'clock, which brought midnight at the sixth hour, thus proving, in the light of preceding facts, that the "sixth hour," while Jesus was in Pilate's judgment hall was "about" midnight, and that the sixth hour while He was hanging on the cross, and when the sun was darkened, was about noon.

Now, if the midnight seizure, the trial before Pilate, the crucifixion, and the burial of Jesus, all took place in one day--Friday, then how could He have been seized in the garden shortly after midnight, led from there successively to Annas, to Caiaphas, to the Sanhedrim, and to Pilate, and yet be in Pilate's judgment hall about midnight?

This utter impossibility alone should convince any one with an understanding mind that these events must necessarily have consumed two days and that any argument supporting the idea that they consumed but one day, is not against the exposition of "The Shepherd's Rod," but against the testimonies of Mark and John, who were eye witnesses to these events.

Hence, let those who, on this account, lay aside "The Shepherd's Rod" realize that they are laying aside the Bible.

Inasmuch as Jesus ate the Passover feast with the disciples before He was seized by the Roman soldiery and the mob (Luke 22:7 through 14), therefore, the fourteenth day of the month, the day on which the Passover lamb was to be slain, fell on Wednesday; the first of the feasts was on Thursday, at which time the midnight seizure took place; and Jesus was tried before Pilate, crucified, and buried on Friday.

Now, owing to the fact that we hold that the writings of Sister White are inspired, we are under obligation to clear the discrepancy between the record of "The Desire of Ages" and that of Mark and John. There can be but one explanation to this, and that is that the word "second" ("The Desire of Ages," p. 77), has in some way gotten used in place of the word "fourth."

Of course, we are forced to the conclusion that this inaccuracy of time occurred as a result either of oversight or of intention, the latter being the more probable, because, of the fact that the denomination has always erroneously believed that the events of the seizure, trials, crucifixion, and burial of Christ all took place in one day.

To confirm the possibility of such an intentional change to agree with existing belief, we call attention to the following vision which was printed in the first edition of "Early Writings," but which was omitted from page 34 of the latest edition,

"I saw all that would not receive the mark of the Beast and of his Image, in their foreheads or in their hands,' could not buy or sell. I saw that the number (666) of the Image Beast was made up; and that it was the Beast that changed the Sabbath, and the Image Beast had followed on after, and kept the Pope's, and not God's Sabbath."

We believe this vision was deleted from "Early Writings" because it was not in harmony with the teachings of the ministry at that time, who then taught, as they still teach, that the numerical name, 666, belongs to the Pope instead of the two-horned beast, and that the Image Beast is the Pope instead of the two-horned beast.

In view of this tampering with the original text of "Early Writings," we are forced to conclude the same to be possible in the case of "The Desire of Ages." However, the change may have come in some other way.(Sym. Code, vol. 3, no.8-10, p.11-12)

Christ says: "You will know them by their fruits". Here we have another contradiction of the SOP and scripture. Victor Houteff alleges that the D of A has been corrupted but his followers ignore the fact that if Ellen White did originally hold to a Wednesday arrest etc she had 17 years between 1898 when it was published and her death in 1915 to correct it. And even more time than this elapsed because the D of A is an expansion of the original Spiritual Gifts series (1858 to 1864) that was expanded into the Spirit of Prophecy series (1870 to 1884) and finally the Conflict of the Ages series (1888 to 1911). When a man with strong opinions and leadership ability usurps the role of the Holy Spirit the result is that he gathers a cult-like following to himself. The more recent manifestation of cult-like behavior is at Waco Texas. The Brand Dividians (their use of the term "Branch" refers to the same "Rod" of the Shepard's Rod) were/are lead by the same man-worship.

The Lord is warning Adventists, Shepard's Rod and Christians in general - beware of making putting man's opinions in the place of scripture. Test everything against the word. The two witnesses are still what they always were - the Old and New Testaments.

This thread is titled "Did EGW Predict Another Prophet Would Arise?" While she didn't predict a single prophet, she did make many sweeping statements about the church in receipt of the latter rain. We know that the NT church received the early rain, that it contained many prophets and that the latter rain will be much greater. It's inconceivable that spiritual gifts of all types will not be manifested on a greater scale than at Pentecost before the return of Christ.

In 1888 we had the rumblings of what will eventually swell into this final manifestation. What are the characteristics of the 1888 message? It would be worth our study to look at that question so that we will recognize and accept the unfolding of the Elijah message and not repeat the same tragic denial that most denominational leaders fell into at that time.

Mark- " While she didn't predict a single prophet, she did make many sweeping statements about the church in receipt of the latter rain."

Sorry to read this brother, but as I've already posted evidence that she prophesied of the "Elijah" to come, I'll not pursue it further. The Lord shall reveal the truth in this regard, may we be on the right side.

In regards to the final days of Christ's life, I shall start a new thread and feel free to come there and reveal your perceived error.

I would be very hesitant to say a confusion over "the sixth hour" is proof of authenticity of a prophet.
This issue has been hotly debated for many centuries and the interpretations are not unique to either EGW or Houteff.

There is no need to draw Christ's trial over several days in order to agree with the Bible.



Matt. 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice
Luke 22:34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.
22:54 Then took they him, and led [him], and brought him into the high priest's house. And Peter followed afar off.
(Peter denies the Lord three times with about an hour between each denial -- the cock crows)
22:62 And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.

22:66 And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council
(Where he was accused of blasphemy)

23:1 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.

Mark 15:25 - “And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.”

Mark 15:33 - “And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.”

Matthew 27:45 - “Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

Luke 23:44 - “And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.”


Thursday evening -- Jesus and disciples celebrate the Passover.
It is night when they go to the garden.
There Jesus agonizes in prayer while the disciples sleep-- it is well past their bedtime.

Sometime around two in the morning the six hours of when the Israel was making their fatal choice began.
Jesus was to be examined and presented as the faultless Passover lamb.

Jesus was arrested and taken to the high Priest, where they had an illegal pre-trial.
This pre-trial period lasted till day break, when the roosters started crowing and Peter realized with horror that He had denied His Lord.
At day-break a more regular (but still illegal) Sanhedrin trial took place where they accused Christ of being guilty of blasphemy.
And "straightway in the morning" He was taken to Pilate" "and it was early".
Pilate sends Jesus to Herod who was also in Jerusalem (not far away) Herod sends Jesus back to Pilate.

Just read the Scriptures together and we can see that all these events could easily have taken up to six hours before the last rejection cry against their Savior "the king of the Jews" is shouted, as Pilate presents the Lord before the multitudes who give out that fateful sentence of “Crucify him!”

John 19:14 "And it was the preparation of the Passover lamb, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
19:15 But they cried out, Away with [him], away with [him], crucify him.

The 'sixth hour' of what?

The sixth hour refers to the sixth hour of the preparation of the Passover lamb, Jesus Christ, for slaughter.

Jesus was not only examined by the priests, and the high priest, but also by Herod and Pilate, and at the end of it all the conclusion was, "I find in him no fault at all." (John 18:38). Thus he was turned over to be killed.

The events that happened from the time the Lord Jesus was first arrested in the early morning hours till the time that Pilate finally presents Him before the Jewish multitude in the open square and says: “Behold your King!” was SIX hours.

He was arrested around
2:00 - 3:00 AM
Declared as faultless but Rejected as King around
8:00 - 9:00 AM
Crucified
9:00 AM
He was on the cross another SIX hours
9:00 AM till 3:00 PM (darkness hiding him the last three hours.
Taken from the cross and buried before the Sabbath hours began.

There is no mention in her writings of another prophet in the sense that the SR claim. Indeed EGW herself does not place herself in the position the SR place Houteff and to a lesser degree EGW.

However, you are right -- the prophetic gift will be manifested.

But is the prophetic gift the same as "a prophet" who alone can interpret scripture?


We read in Joel
2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

What does EGW say about a future "Elijah"?

GLL, I believe you really are concerned that Adventism has rejected a prophet. I appreciate your sincerity and your concern for us. I hope you sense my concern too. What matters most is whether we allow the Word to speak to us. Isn't it true that blind Laodicea is you and me. We all need that heavenly eye salve, especially to see our own helpless condition. It's a prerequisite to recovering our sight. God help us all.

Dedication that's as good an explanation as any for the sixth hour issue.

You know, I've read the D of A quite a bit. But as I listened to it again on my little MP3 player recently, this statement arrested my attention about the final manifestation of the Holy Spirit:



One of the prominent doctrines you'll find in the teaching of Jones and Waggoner is that the same creative power that framed the universe is the power that forgives, restores and sustains the inner life of the Christian. Over and over Jones and Waggoner pointed us to the word and expounded how to have living faith that would tap into that power of the living Word. The latter rain is not an abnormal condition for the church. The lack of the gifts among us is the evidence of a famine for the living word among us. A church with an abundance of spiritual gifts is in fact the normal, healthy condition of the body of Christ. We have the inverse in our thinking because a feeble, diseased body is the "norm" to us, it's all we've ever known, but this is not the norm to God. "The Spirit and the Bride say come". When we sense the feeble, diseased condition of our spirituality then we be motivated to take of the healing water of life freely.

Very true, Mark.

The Church's greatest most urgent need.

Mark--
"GLL, I believe you really are concerned that Adventism has rejected a prophet. I appreciate your sincerity and your concern for us. I hope you sense my concern too. What matters most is whether we allow the Word to speak to us. Isn't it true that blind Laodicea is you and me. We all need that heavenly eye salve, especially to see our own helpless condition. It's a prerequisite to recovering our sight. God help us all."

Yes brother, those are good and true words. Here's my synopsis of what is really happening within our church. We did a post called " Help I can't see" which we pointed out how that it is impossible for one who has converted (quite knowingly sinning) to not see God's truth.

We are promised in (John 16:13) that "He shall guide you into all Truth". But many don't realize this is a gift. If we cherish sins or if we fail to do the Lord's last instructions from His Elijah message, then we will not have that "eyesalve" in which to correctly discern truth from error.

Further in Rev. chap. 3 our Lord basically says to us Laodiceans that we "need" something. That is clearly more truth. Being all seeing and knowing, "He KNEW that His message of Elijah would be largely rejected by His people (Laodiceans).

I will give you credit, as opposed to certain others here on this site, you have asked good and solid questions. That means you are searching, which is the first step to studying "to show yourselves approved unto God.." (2 Tim. 2:15)

Unfortunately many do not search, as they think themselves "rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing". They think they know all they need to know. They don't ask questions because they want to answer from their wealth of information. This is where we must search inside. Once we know that our Lord said we "Laodiceans" need more, then we all must listen to a message that someone brings and compare it to Scripture and SOP.

The Bible speaks about 144,000 soon to be sealed among the church of God "Israel". These are those who "follow the Lamb wheresover He goeth" even if they have to proclaim the "testing truth" which has "contempt placed upon it" (Testimonies, vol.5 ,p. 453).

You see, brother Houteff did not care about himself being called the "Elijah" to come. Here's his words-

"It is at this time the 144,000 are marked, or sealed. Ezekiel 9 fits Elijah's experience for this reason: The prophet, or the message is called, Elijah, "with the spirit and the power of Elijah." The prophet Elijah thought all Israel had apostatized, and that he alone was left, but the Lord said He had 7,000 men that had not bowed a knee to Baal.

"Seven" signifies a complete or perfect number, which stands as a symbol, in this instance meaning a complete number of thousands. The complete number of the very elect is 144,000. So we, too, like Elijah, think the whole church is drifted into the world (bowed a knee to Baal). Thus Elijah stands as a type of the 144,000 living, translated saints." (SRod vol. 1, p.46-47)

He said " or the message" is called Elijah. So, although many of us today truly believe that VTH was the prophesied Elijah, that is not what is important. The message that he brought is what counts.

And what was VTH's message? It's core was one of revival and reformation and the truth of the 144,000 (who, what and where they are). This is why the SDA church leaders fought him. he called them out for their failure in health reform (adapting to the world standards and not SOP standards) diet reform, dress reform, sanctuary reform and all other necessary reforms.

THAT was his message.

You quoted DA, p.823 and I believe that as well. However we must never forget that SOP, Scripture and the Elijah message ALL predict a church purification before His power is poured out (ie. miracles, wonders and such). As EGW says we cannot expect His power to be poured out with "Achans" in our midst.

"We profess to be governed by the same principles, to be influenced by the same spirit. But instead of giving all for Christ many have taken the golden wedge and a goodly Babylonish garment and hid them in the camp. If the presence of one Achan was sufficient to weaken the whole camp of Israel, can we be surprised at the little success which attends our efforts when every church and almost every family has its Achan?" (Testimonies, vol.5, p.157)

And let's not forget that only overcomers will be "permitted" to proclaim the "Loud Cry" (Review and herald , Nov. 19, 1908)

So, yes this latter rain is coming but there is a solemn event to take place prior. This is ELIJAH'S warning.

But what if we discern that this "message" from Houteff contains a lot of error?
Jesus warns that a lot of false prophets will arise in the last days.


Why even "mary" predicts a "purification" called the great chastisement. A purification for the Catholic church, as well as for others, as part of her "kingdom" to fill the earth. Yet, I don't believe her predictions are from heaven.

Even Muslims teach health reform, dress reform and all manner of reforms. They too think purification by violent means is necessary for their "kingdom" to fill the earth. But do we believe their message is from heaven?

Also Houteff was not rejected because he called people to a more serious regard for the health reform, and a return to Adventist truths. He was rejected for presenting material that was quite different from Adventist truths.

It was not because Houteff AGREED with EGW's writings, (and in many instances he does agree) but it was because he DISAGREED with some core issues, and taught something quite radically different, and yet used fragments of her writings to make it seem like she agreed.

When I read Houteff and see how he takes EGW's writings and weaves her sentences in with his ideas, it is glaringly apparent to me that he is NOT using her writings correctly. Especially when his conclusions are in direct opposition to what she taught.

Then of course the Houteff followers will say -- EGW wasn't agreeing with the Bible, so Houteff had to correct her. We saw this right here on this thread.

In this Houteff followers show they don't really think EGW was a prophet (at least not on any footing with Houteff).
And so it appears to me that SR are just using her writings to strike a responsive cord in Adventists for they know most Adventists do regard her writings as inspired, and by weaving her sentences in with their very different ideas make it appear EGW agrees, when in actuality she taught no such thing.

Bro. Mark , have you had a chance to see the report on Jesus' final days/hours?

Mixing truth with error. It's going to be so hard. Harder than I ever imagined. So many, oh so many are going to be deceived. It is almost overwhelming. We must all be firmly anchored to the scriptures and absolutely firmly know whether we believe Ellen White or not.

Two witnesses? What else does Ellen say?
Old Testament? "Daniel is standing in his lot" & "thus is Daniel standing in his place"

New Testament? "John stands in his place."