Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1

Sabbath, September 17, 2016 I came across this statement below by Ellen White which was released for the first time in July of 2015. In the last two weeks I've shared this find with some of the leading officers, pastors and laymen of the church. This prediction, part of last year's comprehensive release from the White Estate, has never been published and is nestled in among the 50,000 pages released so it's hard to say how many are aware of it now but probably very few. Her statement struck me with full force partly because just the day before I thought I should download the entire 9 volumes of the Testimonies in MP3 format (audio recordings) and so I did. Here Ellen White is writing to G.I. Butler who at this time was in denial of her testimony. The sobering truth she prophesies here is that the Testimonies will one day be rejected by God's people.



In her later writings she makes statements warning that this is entirely possible but none of her other statements are so direct as to plainly say that it will happen. This statement, of course, doesn't mean it is inevitable, but only that God, knowing the futures sees the choice that the church will make.

The Testimonies explain and recommend themselves so it would be out of place for me to write a commentary on the topic. Instead, below in the following post(s) are excerpts from other testimonies on the same subject. The first one was written to the church at Battle Creek, many of whom like Elder Butler, were in denial at this point regarding the Testimonies. Originally this testimony was numbered 31 and was titled “The Testimonies Rejected”. It was renamed “The Testimonies Slighted” when it was republished in Testimonies Vol 5. As you read the following quote, notice the hopeful outcome she describes as she concludes.

From 5T, The Testimonies Slighted:

Continuing in T5:

The Testimonies are not to be re-interpreted. They are to interpret themselves just as the Bible is to be it's own interpreter. So there should be no committees, no official statements from the White Estate, other than to confirm it's authenticity, and no dissection by the scholars.

As Adventists our mutual obligation to one another is to be good stewards of our finds of truth. This find is like when the priests under Joash found the scroll of the law and realized that Israel was under God's judgment and would be rejected and dispossessed as God had said through Moses unless they repented. What if the priests had been unfaithful and not shared the warning? Aren't we under obligation to share this? Look at what Moses wrote in Deuteronomy 32 and how he riveted in the minds of the men of Israel in the form of a song this warning prophecy that apostasy would indeed occur. This was his parting legacy. Similarly, shouldn't this be made as public as possible to all the citzens of spiritual Israel?

In closing here are two more statements, the first to Uriah Smith and the second to a Brother Garmire, both written in 1890 during the crises following the 1888 General Conference.

Not sure what you mean by "the Testimonies" Do you mean the Old and New Testaments?

Also:


Does this rule apply to the Bible also?

I must say I am a little confused with some things on this forum.

Seventh-day Adventists believe in the prophetic gift of Ellen G. White and that the testimonies (which have been printed in ten volumes) as well as her other writings are Divine messages from God given through her for God's people in the last days.


In the last days, scripture tells us, all manner of deceptions will come with false gospels, false Christs, false worship and the whole world (almost) will be deceived.
(See Matt. 24, Luke 21, Rev. 13-14)

The testimonies (totally in agreement with scripture) reveal where the dangerous reefs and deadly rapids are, so God's people can avoid them as they approach the eternal shore.

That's why "Satan is . . . constantly pressing in the spurious--to lead away from the truth. The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Proverbs 29:18)."
Satan wants as many people as possible to end up shipwrecked on the reefs of deception so they will not reach the blessed shore.


The only problem is these testimonies which were given to clarify, are also being re-interpreted, (just like people do with scripture) they get cut apart and pasted together in ways that completely change the message they originally presented.

A big "Amen" to Mark Shipowick's statement:



To which we add --- read the messages IN THE CONTEXT in which they were written.

Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don't you never quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don't you give a rap any more what "Sister White said"-- "Sister White said this," and "Sister White said that," and "Sister White said the other thing." But say, "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel," and then you do just what the Lord God of Israel does, and what he says. {SpM 167.2}

A big Amen to that. We should take note what Ellen said here with other passages of this sort. I think she said these to keep us balance in regards of how to read her writings.

We have become severely unbalanced because we failed to understand and apply the following:

-truth is progressive. We know in part and prophecy in part -- meaning we do not have the whole picture yet nor the whole understanding of how God is working out his laws & prophecies. That applies to all Biblical writers.

All others outside the Biblical writers who receives some revelation needs to understand this basic reality. Anyone who receives a revelation or word from above often will convey the message received to others as best as they can within the context of their own current understanding of "truth" to it. That's fine. As long as we do not treat our current understanding as TRUTH and know how to isolate it from the revelation received from God. For example, words or dreams received from above could be highlighted and bolded to make a distinction from what we think it means.

This is what we do as an error with Ellen White writings. We treat all her writings as coming directly from God, when Ellen was giving the vision or word received in context of her own shorted current understanding of "truth".

-the law is the foundation against we are to test all prophets, teachings, and doctrines.(Is 8:20) The better we understand the law, the better we can understand the Word from scripture; the post revelations, dreams, visions (that often comes from unseasoned believers); and the small voice that we all hear ourselves.

-we are unfamiliar with the Lord language. The Lord speaks in "dark speaches"(riddles, puzzles) that needs to be solved. He use physical elements with rituals or events to describe spiritual realities to come in the Law(Pentateuch) and in the prophecies. Num 11

-nor do we know how the prophecies speaks according to the law : (Is 8:20) In studying these parallel would help us further understand how the Lord applies the law, give us greater revelation of the law, enabling us to better guard it, and better test all manner of doctrines that comes our way.

Well, I think HsChild has the right idea. We should study the Bible more, and see what it is telling us.

John 14:26 says "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." (NIV)

And 1 John 2:27 says "As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you."

So HisChild's view on this point is Biblical, and I agree with it. I know this is a SDA forum, and you believe in Ellen White, and that's OK for you. But with all the claimants to prophetic insight you hear about now, I just want to stick with the Bible. That one I trust.

Well said. I agree and you bring up an important point that all understanding or interpretation needs to come from the teachings of the Holy Spirit.

1Jn 2:27 is a promise that Jesus will teach us personally all truths. If we do not go to Jesus to teach us, and depend on the teachings of men, (includes church's teachings) with their "partial understanding" of scriptures like the Jews did with the writings of Moses.... We will NEVER COME TO KNOW THE TRUTH. Moses writings were inspired, however we all need the Holy Spirit to teach us how to read(understand) and apply these according to Jesus intend & mind.

This principle applies to any post Biblical revelation, dreams, or vision received by a well-seasoned prophets in office, or any unseasoned believers, or the signs giving in the historical or current events.

BTW...Welcome to the Forum Nadi!

I am assuming that the above is a quote from Ellen White. It concerns me a bit because it is a classic cult control tactic:

"I'm telling you the truth. People will come along and tell you it's wrong, but don't listen to them. They're evil."

This predisposes people to a close-minded fear position relative to discovering the truth of the situation.

I'm not saying she's wrong or right, just that I don't like that sort of defense of a position. The truth of a statement should stand on its own, or legitimate support, not fear.

Well said again Nadi.

We need to get back to studying what the Bible actually says(by which Ellen and James always told us that it was a personal duty), working on removing all "heart idols"(teachings of men that we inherited from the past 2000 years from various sources) and rely on the Holy Spirit to teach us what it means.

And yes, the Holy Spirit will teach us things beyond what Ellen White understood for not all things were reveal to her for she was not the last generation people. Ellen understood and commented on her dreams and vision according to what she understood and what was reveal at her time.

Like Abraham thought for 12 years that Ishmael was the promised son. The Lord did not correct Abraham misunderstanding of His promise. Only when it was time to give Sarah a child fulfilling His promise(to a basic level as this promise also pointed to Jesus) did Abraham misunderstanding was corrected. It doesn't mean that Abraham didn't hear the Lord correctly or was a "false prophet" during those 12 years... it was just not time for him and others to know All what the promise given to him meant in application and fulfillment.

It is the same thing with Ellen White. She understood her dreams and visions according to her limited understanding of her time. It doesn't mean that this understanding is 100% correct, nor does it mean that she didn't receive them or that she is a false prophet for expressing what she understood it meant.

We need to understand that "truth is progressive" and always be open for the Lord to correct our current partial understanding. If not, then we will mold these into "heart idols" and the Lord explictly warned us that if we come to Him with pre-conceived ideas....He will multiply these and it will blind us. (Ezk 14:4)

Welcome Nadi. The Bible writers do this as well more than once. Because cultic leaders have done the same doesn't discredit the word of God or Ellen White.

True.
But that argument is a logical fallacy.
"If A can do it, then it is Ok for B to do it"
You may be able to convince some people with that line of reason, but I'm not one of them.

The rejection of EGW is unfolding, at a time when her writings are most needed.

People would rather listen to the philosophers of the world and their re-interpretation of the Bible, and listen to the speculative ideas that tickle the imagination, --for it is more pleasing to their natures, then to read Ellen White's clearly Biblical based revelations --

Do you think God may be trying to protect you by sending a prophet to warn you that a popular teaching is false?

Actually I think God is trying to protect me by sending his Holy Spirit to guide me into all truth. (John 16:13)

And how does the Holy Spirit guide you into all truth?

Too often our desires, deductions and impulses are mistaken as the Holy spirit. It is rather amazing how many totally contradicting ideas are proclaimed by various individuals as truth revealed by the Holy Spirit, this makes truth rather arbitrary and dependent upon whatever a person thinks is truth.

So how can we know we are following the Holy Spirits leading?


But scripture warns us that there are many false spirits and false prophets.



I fully agree that we must earnestly pray for the Holy Spirit to guide us into truth.
Without the Holy Spirit in our lives we won't find truth.

Yet there is so much out there that claims to be of the Holy Spirit but isn't.

One cardinal rule to remember --
The Holy Spirit was the One Who directed the writing of scripture.



The Holy Spirit will always agree with the scriptures, for He is the author of the scriptures.



It's also noteworthy that scriptures reveal God's prophets were not general received with favor, they tended to be persecuted and shunned, while the false prophets were welcomed.

True prophets called for repentance and turning from sin, which has never been a welcomed message by the majority.

Yes...
Yes...
and Yes..

So, what is your point?

What is the point?

Well -- before Christ's first coming God sent a prophet to prepare the way for Him.

Who was that prophet?



Will God send a prophet in the last days as well, before His second coming?

That prophecy in Isaiah sounds like it applies more fully to the last days, for all flesh did NOT see the glory of God at the first coming.

Could it be that God has raised up a prophet to make straight the paths just before Christ's second coming?

God always sends a messenger with a warning before He imposes judgment.

He sent Noah, Lot, Jonah, Jesus, etc...

Jonah was the rare exception, folks listened to him.

And the Church listened to Ellen while James was alive, but after his death, they sent her off to Australia (removing her from the seat of authority). But God's messages through her pen, came right on time to guide God's people who would listen to the right message at the right time.

It is true that "before Christ's first coming God sent a prophet to prepare the way for Him." However, Jesus and John were contemporaries; John arrived first, preaching and baptizing, then Jesus followed during his lifetime.

If you are trying to use this analogy to establish that White is the prophet for the end days, I must reject this line of reasoning on the grounds that she has been dead for a hundred-no! wait! a hundred and one years. The world we live in now bears almost no resemblance to her day.

Always? That statement pre-supposes that you are acquainted with every instance where God imposed judgement. At best, one only knows those instances revealed in Scripture.


This also presupposes that you also know the outcome of every one of God's judgements.

That's the most amazing part --
The things she said would happen just before the end sounded IMPOSSIBLE in her day, but it's definitely NOT impossible today-- There is no way anyone can convince me she is "outdated" on endtime events.

There is probably more credible evidence that Ellen White was a true prophet than of any other prophet since creation. For example, JN Loughborough, in his book The Great Second Advent Movement, Its Rise and Progress gives example after example of documented events witnessed by himself and reliable witnesses. These were cases where the Lord showed her things she couldn't possibly have know about, often rebuking hidden sins that only the guilty party knew of, or decisive church meetings in which she was not present but the Lord showed her exactly what took place before the meeting occurred. Dozens of people witnessed her while she was in vision. In all her visions she had no breath but spoke distinctly - a physical impossibility without breath - and did things in vision that were completely beyond the strength of the strongest men such as holding a heavy Bible at arms length for half an hour at a time. This is just a small part of the evidence. Joseph Bates and many other credible sources could be cited.

The rejection of her testimony in the Seventh-day Adventist church is well on it's way to complete fulfillment. It has already been made of no effect in most denominational schools in many areas - dress codes, dating standards, competitive sports, balance of work/study, the bible as the main textbook, agriculture and natural healing at the core of the curriculum for all students, practical skills as central. A similar state exists in our health institutions.

At this month's Annual Counsel that just ended Elder Ted Wilson called for educational reform. That was a good thing to say. Unfortunately he has crippled his own influence by not acting decisively in other areas such as the rebellion of the unions and conferences against the GC on women's ordination.

Elder Ted should understand why Ellen White supported the formation of the Unions. Precisely to counter what the GC has recently contemplated doing to the Unions. From EGW perspective, WHO are the ones in rebellion? Hint: Not the Unions.

Yes APL, it is the unions and conferences in some instances, that are in rebellion. Some divisions as well. Clearly contrary to the teaches of Ellen G. White.

As far as the first statement about warning, Yes!; always.

God is extremely just and never holds anyone accountable for sin unless they are warned first! So, there isn't any exception to this attribute of God.

There is rebellion of the unions. Whether right or wrong, they are going against the structure of our church. Perhaps the structure is wrong?

This won't end well. Either/or/and the rebellion will continue and/or the General Conference will prove non-relevant.

I wrote to Elder Wilson about his rebellion last week:

Brother Wilson,

There is no doubt that God loves you! The evidence is all about you. But because God loves you, His rebuke is upon you and the church for which Christ gave His precious life that is suffering on account of your sins and rebellion against the will of God.

A video was shown at church Sabbath (yesterday) in which you lamented the lack of unity within the church and the departure of some members from the tried and true waymarks established when God founded the Seventh Day Adventist Church as a movement in prophetic history. But the leader of the rebellion against God is yourself, Brother Wilson. And for that you must make confession and reformation before it is forever too late.

The will of God in ordaining Ellen White to be a gospel minister in the Seventh-day Adventist Church is settled theology. If the LORD did not want a woman to be ordained He would not have blessed that waymark that He placed in this Church at its prophetic onset. But the misconstruing of this issue is not unlike that of circumcision in Paul's day. The pro-circumcision party had God's word in Genesis on their side, and tradition, and the law of Moses; and Paul did not have a single text to prove that they were wrong, but Christ had come to fulfill the law and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit made it known to Paul that that which had been ordained was no longer Present Truth.

You decry that some are departing from the waymarks, while you lead the rebellion in this instance. Not only have you denied the leading of God in the ordination of Ellen White, but by not seeing the truth in the Scriptures, you have cherished the darkness of man's pride. Have you not read Christ's prayer to our Father which art in Heaven, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven"? In the Revelation of God that HE gave to Jesus Christ, HIS will is revealed: the redeemed in Heaven are kings and priests before God. Are men only to be redeemed?

But knowing the way that the LORD has led in our past church history, knowing that God's will is to be done on earth as it is in Heaven, knowing the view of Brother Jan Paulson, who sat in your seat, and continuing to rebel against the LORD is the grievous sin that is causing the damage of which you lament. Cause is followed by effect. The unity of the body in Heaven and earth is fractured. And those who are remaining faithful and refusing to follow a path that violates a clear thus saith the LORD are being defamed as the rebels. But that is as it should be to fulfill that which is written.

The same is true about new light that God has been pleased to give to the SDA Church that is being cast as if it is all sorts of errors that are trying be brought into the Church. The call to stay true to historicism is an effort to exalt man's methodology above a thus saith the LORD. Historicism is only as good a methodology as those who follow it correctly make it. When historicism is followed incorrectly, it is a blight. But like woman's ordination, historicism out of focus will tear the unity from the heart of God's Church.

I am not under the deception that you will hear me any more than your dad valued the copy of the Gorbachev letter that I forwarded to him so many years ago to give him some insight as to how God was working behind the scenes. But instead of waiting until after the fact as in my communication with your dad, I will tell you before it happens so that you will know that this is not my opinion to be brushed aside lightly. The word of the LORD has come to you to test you and your response will either be to buy eyesalve from Christ and the gold of faith that you need for this time or to seal your rebellion apart from Christ.

Iran will attack America after the results of the US election are made known. I suspect Donald Trump will win and that will be the catalyst because he has said that when he is president he will sink Iranian boats that violate the safety zone around our fleet at sea. After Iran attacks the US fleet, President Obama will take a 3rd term that will be an attack on America's Constitution. He will then attack God's Covenant (Sunday Law) and then God's people.

The events will be rapid ones. The work that could have been done in a time of peace and safety will be done in the most trying of circumstances and the 1888 attitude of the church leadership will be manifest for what it has been.

Do not delay to pray and listen to the very message of Present Truth that will refresh your soul. But if like those in Noah's day, who waited for it to rain to be sure that Noah had the Present Truth, by delaying, you will know the truth, but they had neglected to obey the message until they were sure; and it was too late to undo their delay when they know that Noah had the right message at the right time. There is no wisdom in repeating their folly.

We are in the final sealing time. Our characters will be sealed to the glory of God or we will be shaken from the platform. There is no middle ground for Laodiceans. Christ said I would that you were hot, but He will accept cold if that is what we choose.

Choose ye this day whom ye will serve, and let it be the LORD!

I'm not sure why you felt the need to insert your opinion of what is going to happen or not.

So if Iran does not attack and if Obama doesn't remain in the office, one can conclude that your thoughts on women's ordination is incorrect?

What might have been good advice, turns into a personal platform of your futuristic prophecy. What if you say you speak for the Lord but have not been sent?

Really?
Leviticus 5:17 "If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible."

The entire letter is based on my understanding of Scripture. Trump won, Obama will stay on, and the war with Iran will come in Obama's Presidency. It has been pointed out to me that Obama may stay in power by some other means rather than the #IranUSwar and then the war will follow. I will concede that the events are right and the sequencing may not be as I currently understand it.

It is written that we know in part and we prophesy in part but when that which is perfect is come we shall know...

Luke 12:48 "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

But it sounded like you letter was about your disagreement about Elder Wilson's view women's ordination. Inserting your understanding of scripture was off topic to him.

Hearing about the protests in the streets does give the slight hint you may be correct about Obama. Time will tell. But whether it does or not doesn't not infer you have shown from scripture that it is prophesied.

As it was in the days of Noah. Some folks will remain in unbelief until it starts raining.

He knows what he said in the video message that was presented to the church. And if he has any questions, he can contact me.

Time will tell? Wait and see???

The prophecies are clear.

The visions:

Daniel 2 began with the head of gold Nebuchadnezzar. It ended with the legs Nabonidus and Belshazzar being crushed by Cyrus.

Daniel 4 began with the tree that received a deadly wound that was healed before it was finally destroyed.

Daniel 7 repeated and enlarged the meaning of Daniel 2 to include kingdoms, and the fourth kingdom was in two phases pagan and papal Rome. Then Heaven explained them as kings from the earth which repeated and enlarged Daniel 2 & 7.

Then the final meaning of Daniel 2--Reagan was the head of gold, Bush I the silver, Clinton the brass, Bush II one iron leg that extended his rule into church craft and Obama the other iron leg that extended into church craft. And Christ strikes the image upon the feet when He comes.

When the kings of the earth/American Presidents are understood in Daniel 7, Daniel 8 explains that the ram's first horn is Bush I, and the one that comes up last is Bush II. The she/he goat is Bill and Hilary Clinton, Bill is the first horn that was broken and Obama is the second horn that waxes great. The notable ones were the 4 American joint chief of staff. The notable one was Colin Powell who was instrumental to place Bush II in office and then Obama.

The prophecy is clearly enlarged in Revelation. Reagan is the white horse rider. Bush I the red horse rider, Clinton rode the black horse (he left office with a surplus, but he had caused the housing bubble that burst after he left that devastated the world's economy), and the last two riders are Bush II who brought death with his statement (9/20/01) that 'the beliefs of Muslims are good' -- Muslims teach salvation apart from Christ, and the rider that brings hell that is on the same horse is Obama.

I have prayed, studied, agitated, irritated, shouted from the roof tops, posted until my fingers are tired of typing, written books, articles and cried aloud sparing not until I am resolved that time spent on Laodicea would be better spent on those in the highways and byways who don't have the blessings of Laodicea. When it was too late, Christ said the hour has come take your rest and He went to Calvary. But before it was too late He had urged the disciples to stay awake and pray.

I have offered to study the prophecies in detail and answered questions that show that the questioners never looked at my previous answers, but were actively keeping me from working in other fields.

The parable of the 10 Virgins is VERY CLEAR when there is no doubt that the last call is true: Christ is at the door, 5 of the virgins are too late: they will never be ready because they slumbered and slept too long.

There is no merit in waiting to proclaim the 3rd Angel's Message until President Obama takes a third term. He is the one who will make an image to the beast and enforce the mark of the beast. The liberty that we have now is not going to last forever. What we fail to do now will be much more difficult to do then.

My most up to date study is almost finished (2016, The Bible, The Constitution, and Obama's 3rd Term--working title) and the proof reader has the first half of Daniel 11. The balance of Daniel 11 and 12 are written and need only to be refreshed and proof read. I plan to have it done this week so I can send out the 100's of copies that have been pre-ordered. And those who have elected to take the wait and see attitude will see...

His Child:
"...Bush II one iron leg that extended his rule into church craft and Obama the other iron leg that extended into church craft."


What then is the significance of the feet part of clay and part of iron? Are you saying that government extension into "church craft" is a blending of strong and weak?

Bush II formed a religious advisory counsel for the White House.

Obama gave it authority to:
1)Identifying best practices and successful modes of delivering social services
2) Evaluating the need for improvements in the implementation and coordination of public policies relating to faith-based and neighborhood organizations
3)Making recommendations to the President and the Administration on changes in policies, programs, and practices
https://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/eop/ofbnp/about/council


This religious advisory board now has authority to recommend to the government to implement religious policies...& practices


did I answer your question

Amen!
We definitely should NOT wait to proclaim the third angel's message. We should be doing that now -- not sitting back and waiting!
But the third angel's message is NOT based on Obama.

Those who wait for Obama to take a third term before they proclaim the third angel's message may well wait forever until it is too late, as Obama probably will never take a third term.
In the mean time so many things are shaping up between Catholics and Protestants with all their jubilee predictions and other plans for 2017,
(see here), plus Trump's promise to Christians that if he is president Christian's will have power, its amazing that anyone would be insisting on pushing out the revealed prophetic picture and replacing it with their own speculative theories and calling that the "last message".

That "old" prophetic message which you despise as "outdated", which is given us in scripture and the testimonies, is the true message, it's not based on individuals but on institutions, but you have totally rewritten and undermined it's foundations -- why?

I pity those 100's who have built their faith on those speculative theories based on specific individuals which you promote, and when Obama passes off the scene their faith tumbles into disbelief at the very time when it is vitally important to be strongly anchored in truth!

The REAL prophetic message is being fulfilled, yes we are on the edge of time, why undermine it with ever changing speculative stuff that is NOT the third angel's message?

When Obama is so clearly identified in Scripture and the Spirit of prophecy as the President that is consumed by the flames of Christ's glory, and the final little horn on the earth beast in Revelation 13; how can you truly give the third Angel's message without mentioning him?



Those who take the wait and see attitude that you are taking to see if Obama gets a 3rd term are doing immeasurable damage to the Church and persuading others of a false sense of security. The virgins that sleep and slumber until the proclamation is so clear that no one can refute it: Christ will come while Obama is in office, are not promised time to get ready. Then it is too late for them to get ready to meet our Lord. They have squandered the time that they could have left their Laodicean self-security and studied to show themselves approved of God.

You don't have the right message at the right time and you are casting your influence against those who do. Your unbelief causes you not to look past your preconceived notions and thus to rest in Laodicean asurety that you have need of nothing.



Lumping comments about truth and error are confusion, it is not of God.



You misrepresent my views that you despise and project your errors upon me so masterfully.

I love and teach that "old" prophetic message in its proper place. The three angels' messages are not dead messages about the judgment of the dead. That was yesterday's Present Truth!

The Three Angels' Messages for today is that the Judgment Hours allotted for the dead and living have ended. We are in the final sealing time. Babylon has fallen with the resignation of Pope Benedict because of the priests' fornication scandal. The kings from the earth have committed fornication with Babylon (the Supreme Court and Obama have accepted the homosexual fornication of Babylon as the law of the land). Babylon is the cage of every unclean bird and Pope Francis has had a light show projected on St Peter's to reaffirm it.

The Third angel proclaims "don't take the Mark of the Beast" and the Bible clearly identifies Obama as the man that will enforce that mark. And when I put the prophecies in their right focus, you do your... to trample them down and say all manor of evil against me.



If only you would wake up to the foolishness of you folly and repent and study without your blinding biases before it is too late!

HC, thank-you for the Ellen White quote: interesting stuff!

HC, I must agree with Dedication, your theories are highly speculative.

Hopefully, on January 20th you will realize and accept that your private interpretation
is misguided and incorrect.

That's in the Bible.

And that, my friend, is not.

So on Jan 20 I could be embarrassed, but if it is as I have said, I fear that the parable of the 10 virgins will play itself out in a most undesirable way in the case Dedication and those who were too busy to really look at the facts before they ran down the clock.

When it was raining and they knew that Noah was right it was too late to prepare to get into the ark. Christ said as it was in the Days of Noah, don't you suppose that is what He meant?

If you have not looked at the texts, studied, the proof and prayed about it -- how can you be so sure?

Doesn't the Bible say something about deciding a matter before hearing all the facts?

So on Jan 20 I could be embarrassed, but if it is as I have said, I fear that the parable of the 10 virgins will play itself out in a most undesirable way in the case Dedication and those who were too busy to really look at the facts before they ran down the clock.

When it was raining and they knew that Noah was right it was too late to prepare to get into the ark. Christ said as it was in the Days of Noah, don't you suppose that is what He meant? [/quote]You are claiming that probation closes if Obama remained in office after January 20.

Interesting how my words are posted by APL
is it the miracle of cut and paste? Or...?

So on Jan 20 I could be embarrassed, but if it is as I have said, I fear that the parable of the 10 virgins will play itself out in a most undesirable way in the case Dedication and those who were too busy to really look at the facts before they ran down the clock.

When it was raining and they knew that Noah was right it was too late to prepare to get into the ark. Christ said as it was in the Days of Noah, don't you suppose that is what He meant? [/quote]You are claiming that probation closes if Obama remained in office after January 20.

You are claiming that probation closes if Obama remained in office after January 20.

Sorry that I was on a borrowed computer, is that better for you Henry?

I wondered how my words come back with your heading. It was more like how did that happen? Hope that your computer is not broken or something.

And NO--- I am saying that President Obama is:
1) America's last President
2) he will be in office when Christ Comes
3) he will be the one to implement the image beast
4) he will`implement the Mark of the beast

HC, assuming that you are correct and Obama is the last president, how does this information change anything? I'm certain that the majority of SDAs on this forum believe that Jesus is returning very soon. Therefore, it is of the utmost importance that we are in a right relationship with God and that we spread the Three Angel's Messages as we are able and with alacrity.

What other actions do you suggest we take to prepare for the imminent return of our Lord?

Easily disproved. Show us where "Reagan" is in the Bible.

"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth" (DAniel 7:17).

Thank you for showing that "Reagan" is NOT in the Bible.

Is this the time to:

1) encourage SDA youth to join the military?
2) divest of our saving and retirement plans so that the money can invested in the Lord's work?
3) conceive children?
4) make major purchases, houses, cars, property?
5) get the facts about the 3rd angel's message before the people before it is against the law?

and the list goes on...

There are some things that we would not do (or we would do differently) if we truly knew how close the coming of Jesus really is.

Really?

I agree, these are all things to consider carefully; however, they would be no less important if there were to be another president after Obama. The time would still be short.

For the sake of argument, let us say that Trump takes office on schedule, it is quite possible, some would even say likely, that he would introduce the Sunday law during his first term. In fact, it would be an excellent strategy for locking up the Protestant and Catholic vote and ensuring a second term.

Hmm...

Interesting thought ProdigalOne.

If Trump should become President on 1/20/2017 Then Christ will come before April 1, 2017 as I indicated many time in conversations posted on this forum with Mountain Man.

The Babylonian reckoning of a kings reign is from their New Years Day (29 March on our Gregorian Calendar) So from that perspective if Obama leaves office prior to 29 March 2017 then every day from 20 January 2017 up until 29 March 2017 is counted as his last year in office.

But as I continue to study, I understand more of the prophecies and they point to Obama remaining in office until Christ Comes.

FYI I have been praying about that. And I even dreamt about it last night after studying it in Jeremiah. In my dream I explained the prophecy of Daniel to Donald Trump and told him that if he accepted the Presidency he would only be President until 29 March 2017 at the upmost and he would be the dreaded 666. He declined to take the post and his wife got furious...

In the interval I began to explain the prophecy to President Obama and he would not believe it that he would not be anything but what he has already been and he determined to stay in office. I grabbed my computer with my manuscript on it and fled to a secret refuge that had been revealed earlier in the dream. He realized that I was leaving and began the chase but I escaped by locking the door as I fled. It closed and by the time he got past that obstacle I was safe.

Could have been that that was on my mind when I went to sleep and could have been the Lord comforting me. I will continue to watch and pray and will see how the Lord leads.

Are we understanding that already you are saying we won't know you are wrong on January 10?

Creative way of putting it off a little longer. An anticipation letdown, but kind of expected, somehow.

(I certainly hope you would not tell Trump you were an Adventist if you do write him!)


Henry, why do I not believe you and don't worry about what you say? Because you do not answer our questions, you do not explain how prophecy shows what you so are saying. You cannot support your beliefs. Even if Obama remained in office, even if Trump did such and such, it wouldn't lend any credibility to what you "prophesied". Because you haven't supported it. No matter what you think you claim to the contrary.


"Reagan" is not in the Bible. "Nebuchadnezzar" is. Understand the difference? The one is a speculative conclusion, albeit unsupported.

(bold emphasis mine)

What Biblical examples do you have to apply these principles in this way? When has God revealed in Scripture to apply a year to any term in this way? Why should we look to the Babylonian reckoning of years at all?

Good question:

When I understood that Benedict XVI was the pope that was to reign for a short space in September 2011, it was because

1) 7 is the number of completeness
2) a short space must be less than 7 years
3) Revelation 17 and 18 were about spiritual BABYLON
4) Babylonian reckoning of time would apply

Thus when Pope John-Paul II died on 2 April 2005 and Benedict XVI became pope, his accession year was John-Paul II's final year through 28 March 2006. Thus Benedict's first year as a solo pope began on 29 March 2006 and he left office 28 February 2013 -- 1 month and 1 day short of 7 years which was a short space. So when I tweeted 8 times between Sept 2011 - Sept 2012 that Benedict XVI would not be pope after the spring of 2013 I had a partial understanding of this principle.

My before the fact tweets are in Twitters archives with times and dates of when I tweeted them.

Were you expecting Pope Benedict XVI to not be pope in 2013? Before it happened (September 2011 to September 2012), as the Loudcryer, I tweeted 8 times that Benedict would not be pope after the spring of 2013:

Pope Benedict XVI has but a very short time left (9/3/11)

#Pope Benedict XVI marks his last year with a Latin America trip that includes a visit to #Cuba (23 March 2012)

With Benedict XVI in his last year,
Who’s going to be the new pope? … (3 April 2012)

Is Pope Benedict going to be pope in 2013? (29 April 2012)

Months ago I tweeted that pope Benedict XVI is a short timer. Now Vatican power play is news! Y u b last 2 know? (28 May 2012)

If Pope Benedict’s 8th year is really his 7th, his time ends before May 2013 (7 July 2012)

Pope Benedict’s 8th year is really his 7th, because his ascension year was John-Paul II’s last year. Will Benedict XVI’s 7th year B his last (8 August 2012)

Pope #Benedict XVI As I read Daniel’s prophecy, 7’s number of completeness. His ascension year (zero) 2005. He might last till spring 2013? (30 September 2012)

Pope Benedict announced this morning (Monday February 11, 2013) that he is resigning as of 28 February 2013.

As I continued to study, knowledge increased. Had I understood that New Years Day on the Babylonian Calendar was 29 March on our Gregorian calendar, I would have been more specific. But as it was my tweets were right on compared to those who did not have a clue that he fulfilled Bible prophecy.

Daniel promises that the wise will understand. Jesus states that the wise will get oil for their lamps before the time comes upon them and the foolish virgins will wait until it is too late to seek the oil.

When there is no doubt about the timing of the Lord's coming, all will understand if they have been wise or foolish. As it was in Noah's Day and Lots Day... the faithful believers got their reward and the foolish folks got theirs as well.

Is that true that the Babylonian Calendar was 29 March?

If you have data to show some other date, I'd like to see it.

I understand these personal experiences you had are very powerful to you, but, I was asking for Biblical evidence.

Sorry, dedication, but this logic does not resonate with any generation post-Baby Boomer. Not in the (SDA) church and certainly not outside the church. Adventist youth, and not-so-young, are leaving the church in droves (actually never did buy in to the propaganda) exactly because of this "There is no way anyone can convince me she is "outdated" on endtime events" mind-set.

In a desperate attempt to shore up shaky eschatology, Adventists have interpreted Jesus' signs of the end as:
Lisbon Earthquake - 1755!!! That's 261 years ago!
Dark Day - 1780!! 236 years ago.
Falling of the stars - 1833 183 years ago.

And these are the "signs of the end"?? To who? Certainly not to our generation, and the generations who saw these things are long dead. The Lisbon Earthquake does not even make the top 10 worst earthquakes ever. Leonid meteor showers are a naturally occurring event dating back to at least 900 CE.

It is past time for Adventists to dispense with traditional, out-dated interpretations and eschatology and re-examine Scripture WITHOUT the fanciful 19th century "interpretations" of a devout but misguided and manipulated woman who got cracked on the head with a rock.

(Indeed, to be fair, there are some Adventists and even SDA theologians who do.)


I know, I will likely get banned for the above rant, but in my view that is the reality of the situation.

And don't fret. I already reported this post to the Admin.

This is the time when your advice is exactly what people DO NOT NEED. Basically your advise is to get people's eyes off of what Christ is doing in the final administration of His priestly work. According to your post, it is apparent that you don't believe those signs mentioned pointed to the beginning of that work.

And now --
at the very time when president elect, Trump, is talking about lowering the wall of church and state separation, and of getting rid of L. Johnson's law that prohibits churches from actively promoting political issues or lose their tax exempt position; and who places high regard for the advice from a board of right winged evangelical ecumenical persons, and who has chosen an "evangelical catholic" (words that a few years ago were never used together in such a manner) man to be vice president -- -- Of course the plan must include denouncing the message from a prophet who predicted these very things as creating an endtime crises.



The end is upon us -- what better time to get people's attention OFF the signs and put them to sleep so they will be unprepared and lost-- at least from the devil's perspective.

Scripture tells us the whole world will be worshipping wrong, (Rev. 13) they will buy into the wrong eschatology, deceived by the "modern" interpretations of signs and scripture and totally unprepared to stand in the last days.

Those so called "out-dated" interpretations are not outdated at all, but, you are right on one point -- only a small group will cling to them. Even many Adventists will reject them.

Blessed are they who have the patience of the saints, who keep God's commandments and have the faith of Jesus, who resist the deceptions of the modern religious interpretations and the "political correct" way of worship that will soon be promoted and enforced in the world.

Right.
How's that working for you so far? Phenomenal church growth? Youth flocking to your church? Gospel reaching the whole world?

Or how about churches filled with loving, accepting people? What Adventist program helps members who are alcoholics, drug addicts, have trouble with sex, p0rn, orientation, gambling, or any other current social issue? Don't STAFF EDIT me here because I know the answer.

No, we have Men's Ministries, Women's Ministries, Children's Ministries and a whole host of other "Ministries," all with an INWARD focus to the PERFECT in out midst. God help the poor member who struggles with any of the above mentioned "sins" If they have the courage to mention it they are judged, ostracized, shunned, removed from participation, BUT NOT HELPED. Not only do they have to struggle with the issues that produced the alcoholism, sex issues, or other "sin," they have no where to turn in the church to get help. If the church is a "hospital for sinners" and not a "Country Club for the Perfect" STAFF EDIT

So you know what you can do with your sanctimonious self-righteousness.

When Bible prophecy is understood before it comes to pass and it is explained as to what it means and it comes to pass as it was explained and the interpretation is rejected and the fulfillment is rejected and the rejector asks for more evidence, it is not the evidence that is needed.

That scenario is so much like the priests in Christ's day who rejected every evidence and then demanded more evidence. And when Jesus arose from the dead, the supreme evidence that had also been prophesied, they rejected that as well. They had their stakes set and they would not be moved.

This thread deals with "rejection of the Testimonies Foretold"
so much that is debated is "off topic".



What do the testimonies, which are the topic of this thread, say about such statements?

Quote:

Let all our brethren and sisters beware of anyone who would set a time for the Lord to fulfill His word in regard to His coming, or in regard to any other promise He has made of special significance. "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His own power." False teachers may appear to be very zealous for the work of God, and may expend means to bring their theories before the world and the church; but as they mingle error with truth, their message is one of deception, and will lead souls into false paths. They are to be met and opposed, not because they are bad men, but because they are teachers of falsehood and are endeavoring to put upon falsehood the stamp of truth. {TM 55.1}

Quote:

We are not to be engrossed with speculations in regard to the times and the seasons which God has not revealed. Jesus has told His disciples to "watch," but not for definite time. ...
no one will be able to predict just when that time will come; for "of that day and hour knoweth no man." You will not be able to say that He will come in one, two, or five years, neither are you to put off His coming by stating that it may not be for ten or twenty years. It is the duty of the people of God to have their lamps trimmed and burning, to be as those that wait for the Bridegroom, when He shall return from the wedding.. . .Today you are to have your vessel purified that it may be ready for the heavenly dew, ready for the showers of the latter rain; for the latter rain will come, and the blessing of God will fill every soul that is purified from every defilement. It is our work today to yield our souls to Christ, that we may be fitted for the time of refreshing from the presence of the Lord--fitted for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
God has not revealed to us the time when this message will close, or when probation will have an end....there is no command for anyone to search the Scripture in order to ascertain, if possible, when probation will close. God has no such message for any mortal lips.... We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit or for the coming of Christ.-- {1 SM 189-192}

We can add that no where is there a command to search scriptures to find the specific president in office when the image to the beast is set up in America.

We are to WATCH -- watch the events and know it is nigh.

TODAY watch and pray clinging to Christ, for in Christ is our refuge and strength, the ONLY One Who can cleanse, sustain and keep us in His grace.

Dedication,

On this I agree with you completely. BUT when the endtime 70 weeks are studied they end on 11 March 2017 the eve of Purim, the day that God redeemed His people from the Persian death decree. And the study of Revelation 17-18 is very clear.

So though I have not looked for a day and an hour for the Lord to return, I have been blessed to know the season.

Your counsel from the Spirit of Prophecy is not balanced for you over look other counsel that is of equal importance.





Unless you repent, The sin that will condemn you and those who follow your teachings is the sin of the people who were bitten by the serpent in the wilderness. Moses raised a bronze serpent on a pole and they were told to look and live. Those who looked lived. Those who refused to look died.

At every step of the way, whenever I presented a ray of light and asked you to study it, you would every reason why I must be wrong but not look at the light in its setting.

The fact is that in Revelation 17-18 we are told exactly where we are in prophetic history.

The deadly wound of the papacy has been healed. The 5 popes were fallen-dead. The one that "was" was alive and he died soon to be impersonated by Satan. And the one that was to be for a short space ruled for a short space (Benedict XVI).



Babylonian tradition made the ruler on New Year's Day king until the 28th of March that followed. John-Paul II died 2 April 2005 and Benedict XVI completed John-Paul II's final year through 28 March 2006. On 29 March 2006 Benedict began his first year and he ruled until 28 February 2013--one month and one day short of 7 years.

But in spite of me telling you that Benedict would not rule after the Spring of 2013 he would not be pope in 2013 and then it happened, you would not accept prophecy correctly interpreted before the fact or correctly fulfilled after the fact as evidence to warrant a closer look.

And now that Daniel and Revelation so faithfully point to President Obama as the last American President identified in Bible prophecy whose term will either be continued until Christ Comes or according to Babylonian custom continue until 28 March 2017 with President Trump fulfilling those few months as Benedict fulfilled the end of Pope John-Paul II's final year, you will have nothing to do with such a clear cut interpretation.

Hischild, I agree with dedication, you are completely off topic!

You are destroying the integrity of the forum topics.

I find it interesting that quotes (possibly from Ellen White's writings as discussed here -- we do not know what writings comes from Ellen's pen. Some addition or correction was inserted, many passages or complete books like steps to Christ are written by one of her team, etc...) are used to prove that her writing will be rejected.

Deut 13:1-6 teaches us that the Lord WILL send prophets TO TEST US WHETHER OR NOT we are going to just believe them without TESTING WHAT IS SAID against what was reveal previously. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Is 8:20

As I said, I do believe the early visions Ellen received were genuine(from the Lord); however, the interpretation of it was wrong at the beginning (remember the "closed door" doctrine and other stuff). Then after that initial 7 years, EGW writings shifted to be INTERPRETATION of scriptures and Church conduct counsels.

Thus, maybe some of those who rejects Ellen's writings could be the ones that have TESTED what was said [after the dazzleness of the early visions has past] as the Lord told us to do in Deut 13.

Just because a vision comes to pass doesn't mean everything that comes out of this individual's mouth afterwards is God's word. That's what Deut 13 teaches. Read it.

That's where the SDA denomination err very gravely and by pushing this type of fear based ploy promotes NOT TESTING what is said -- the very opposite of Deut 13.

The SDA Church is taking a SERIOUS OPPOSITE position to the Lord's Law in Deut 13 that warns us to TEST ALL THINGS someone's says; even if that person comes with vision and signs that comes to pass. In another word, just because a vision comes to pass, you still need to test whatever comes out of their mouth afterwards.

I asked first.

Please show where the data shows your date.

That's a great question now that you put it that way. I didn't keep up with the reference. When I googled it just now the Spring equinox marked New year's day in ancient Babylon. In 605 BC it was either 27 March or 28 March. Now a days it is 20 March 2017.

But as I said If you can nail it down better with a good reference, let me know and I'll adjust my thinking accordingly.

I would guess March 20 or 21, I don't really know. But I realize the calendar dating had changed, so that might explain 605 BC. However, I was thrown off by your comment:
Guess that's 20 (or 21?) March 2017? Or 22!

When is the equinox (22?)
Does/did the calendar begin at it or based upon some moon phase?

It was the Spring equinox and in ancient Babylon the Spring equinox was the on the 27 or 28 March. And in conjunction with it they had a festival where they carried a statue of a god from his city to Babylon for the day and then back home.

The nearest that I can figure, New Year's Day was 29 March (they did not have 30 day months back then). I did have a reference from a noted archaeologist explaining it, but I thought it was common knowledge and did not keep up with the documentation. Now that I have had to research it again, it is a lot of work. and a time consuming task that is not definitive according to the websites I checked out this time.

So would you be in agreement it (Start of the Babylonian calendar) has nothing to do with the 29th of March, 2017, nor is there any work needed for searching days in a month nor what Julian day it fell on in 605BC, but it only has to do with the Spring equinox in 2017?

The seventy weeks recorded in Daniel 9 were "cut off" from 2300 days of Daniel 8. They began at the same time -- at the command to rebuild. So if those 70 weeks end, as you mistakenly assert on March 11, 2017, there are still 1810 days (years) to follow before the sanctuary is cleansed.

So once again I see a complete departure from the testimonies. (See DA 233, GC 326-327)
Those 70 weeks began in 457 BC and ended in 34 AD when the gospel went to the Gentiles, they were the first part of the 2300 day/years which continued rolling for another one thousand eight hundred and ten years, till 1844 AD when Christ as our High Priest entered the Most Holy to complete the work of the atonement before His coming.

I fear that you are making a similar mistake as the evangelicals in applying things that belong to the over arching revelation of earth's history, and squeezing it all into the last days.

It is because I have studied, that I cannot accept your ever changing interpretations. Remember you have been doing this for several decades now -- one supposed hit out of many failed predictions is NOT at all convincing. I see you are already building a backup scenario now that Trump is president elect. Always an "oops didn't quite understand -- here is a new version" approach, and so it goes while you are condemning everyone who does not accept your ever revised interpretations.

As to "getting into the ark" before its too late.
That has nothing to do with asserting that Obama is the last president.
It has everything to do with our TODAY relationship with Christ.
Yes, we are "in the endtime season" and that is true no matter who is president.

We don't even know that we will be alive next March. Why set dates when we are told NOT TO DO SO. Today is the day -- every day is TODAY, to be in a vital, close and submitted relationship with our Redeemer.

No. The Spring equinox in ancient Babylon was around the 27th -28th and they had a religious festival that began at that day and ended
on the 29th as best as I can tell at this time. But April 1 was after New Year's Day. So for prophetic calculations 29 March is a fairly reliable date for New Year's Day in ancient Babylon.

Those who take the mistaken view that ALL PROPHETIC TIME stopped in 1844 would agree with your statement on this.

But since EGW used the term PROPHETIC TIME exclusively to refer to the day and hour of Christ appearing, she was saying that there were no prophecies after 1844 that specified the day and hour of Christ's Coming. But prophecies relating to time and endtime events continue until Christ comes. An inability to understand time prophecies after 1844 is not of God and it handicaps those who would be faithful.

The mistake dear sister is with you. The 70 weeks that occurred in the past are repeated as literal weeks twice in the endtime.


I agree that you have departed from the testimonies by not understanding them correctly and incorporating trash that has entered into the church since 1844 into your teachings to obscure them.


That is true but it is not the of the 70 weeks. For when the 2300 day/year prophecy ended in 1844 Revelation 10 confirmed that they ended when John proclaimed time shall be no longer...the 2300 years are up and the long time=a day = a year is no longer in the prophecies in Revelation. John also recorded Thou must prophecy again which is a command to the prophecy in the little book of Daniel to prophesy again or to be repeated. And when the times in revelation occur from Revelation chapter 10 to the end, they are literal time.


And I fear that you are too far to the preterits point of view. Those things in the past that were partial fulfillments you take as the final complete fulfillment and refuse the blessing from understanding the complete and final fulfillment when it is upon us.


If you had remembered and understood how God led His people in the past, you would not be troubled with that false argument. God is infallible, but people are not. In 1843 Adventists got it wrong. They changed the date of Christ's Advent to 1844 and got it wrong again. And then changed the event and could not prove that they got it right because the event was happening in Heaven.

When I got things wrong, I prayerfully went back to God and studied more. As many times as it took to get it right. Then when I got it right predicting that Benedict would not be pope after the Spring of 2013, you did not receive a blessing as the Adventists that grew in their understanding in 1844, because you only saw error and would not see truth when it was set before you. And to add to your sin, you cast a shadow over truth to keep others from seeing it.
Thse who fail to see that Obama is the Antichrist that heads the beast with lamblike horns will be deceived by him.

God does not give Present Truth for it to be neglected and ignored. To do that is to do it at your own peril as Christ made clear in the parable of the 10 virgins.

I can only tell you what I understand from Bible study. I NEVER SET A DATE for Christ's coming. BUT I have shown the dates that I encounter in Bible study and point to Jesus and DECLARE THAT WE ARE IN THE FINAL SEALING TIME AND THAT IT WILL BE A SHORT TIME!

The high priest was confident that Jesus was not the Messiah. so confident that Christ's crucifixion did not trouble him. The priest missed the first Advent and many will sleep until it is to late as those in Noah's Day. In spite of the fact that we have the Testimonies because they are misread, misinterpreted, and picked and chosen like ingredients of a salad.

Are we talking about the Spring equinox of this year or are we talking about the 27, 28, 29th of March of this year?

Answer this, if nothing else: When is the spring equinox of 2017?


I agree with you that ALL prophetic time did not stop in 1844 as one can readily read the context she said it in. But I don't understand why you are relating that to what I just said.

Something seemed to have changed between 11/19/16 and 11/28/16.

Would you call this "backpedaling"? If not, what could possibly be called backpedaling in regard to your prediction here?

Yes, you claim you talked to MM about this. How long ago was that? Did you forget that when you make an absolute statement such as:
President Obama is: 1) America's last President


(By the way, if saying, "Then Christ will come before April 1, 2017" is not date setting, I'm not sure what would be)

??????????????
I have incorporated NOTHING. The Testimonies are clear in what they say, and they do not incorporate what you are teaching. The things I see entering the church since 1844 is a lot of changing the prophetic picture and undermining the firm foundation the prophetic message is built upon.

I see people taking the timelines and placing them where ever they fancy to place them, (others as well, not just you) they are lifted out of the context they hold in scripture and in SOP, and in the prophetic unveiling of earth's history from the time of the prophets to the end.
Indeed a lot of "trash" has entered the church till the true prophetic message is so confused with multiple interpretations that anything goes and nothing is certain.

EGW even says so much and links it to the re-interpretation of the time lines where people repeatedly set new times and seasons for Christ to come -- which results in failure after failure till people throw prophecy out the window as nothing but a sandbox in which to build sand castles that keep getting knocked down. It's the craftiest way to get people to turn against the true prophetic road map.
’

Your argument that the misunderstanding of the EVENT that was to take place at the end of the 2300 days, now gives license to repeated re-interpretations that fail, only serves to completely destroy people's hold on 1844 as well.

You see -- 1844 was NOT a mistake, the calculations were correct, the time of the end began, Christ began His last phase of His heavenly ministry in preparation to the second coming. The three angel's messages began to sound. The breach in the ten commandments was being repaired. Their mistake was the event, as they thought the "sanctuary" was this earth, when in fact the sanctuary to be cleansed according to Hebrews is in heaven. This cleansing message is absolutely crucial to us being able to stand in the last days.

If we lose the sanctuary doctrine, due to all this pulling the foundational beams out from under it, then indeed we will be deceived in the last days.

The dates for the last day events are unknown, and will not be known till Christ announces it from the sky (and that will be after probation has closed, and God's people will already be delivered from the death decree) -- and then it will be known by ALL, not just one or two, of Christ's people.

And remember -- the last great deception is not over who is president, but it concerns spiritual things.

That's the greatest problem with all this speculation -- while false spiritual things are sweeping into the church and real "trash" is shrouding the spiritual truths of salvation, shrouding the truths of sanctification and the seal of God, keeping those who profess to know Christ from leading people to a full commitment to God, the enemy seduces them into thinking they are in "present truth for this time" by getting them speculating over things God never revealed, coming up with some sensational pronouncement, be it some new reinterpretation of prophecy, or some spiritual ecstasies, and has them pushing people around trying get them to follow them as the spiritual guide using these sensational speculations as bait -- instead of turning to God with trust and commitment that is not dependent upon any earthly man, and will stay true no matter which president and pope brings in the final crises.

Amen, Sister!

Amen means so let it be.

Sister U has so twisted the testimonies and what I said that it will never be established as she presents it.

From GC 325.2 to 328.2 clearly describe the fulfillment of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9. What dedication has stated is already come to pass.

Isn't that right?

From GC 325.2 to 328.2 it clearly describe the fulfillment of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9. They have already been fulfilled.
Isn't that right?

Yes.
The 70 weeks/490 years, were the first part of the 2300day years.

The 70 weeks pointed to Christ's first coming.
The 2300 years pointed to the beginning of the judgment which precedes Christ's second coming.




The messages in Daniel point to the judgment, which the three angels' messages declare has begun.

"The prophecies present a succession of events leading down to the opening of the judgment. This is especially true of the book of Daniel. But that part of his prophecy which related to the last days, Daniel was bidden to close up and seal "to the time of the end." Not till we reach this time could a message concerning the judgment be proclaimed, based on the fulfillment of these prophecies. {GC 355.3} "

The 70 weeks are part of this succession of events leading down to the opening of the judgment -- they are part of the 2300 day/years that point to 1844 and the opening of that judgment.





The [Daniel 9] inserted above is not in DA 234.

Daniel 9 prophesied Christ's first advent, there is nothing in the passage to suggest the SAME prophecy also applies to the second coming.
There is much in Daniel that DOES apply to the time of end. Thus the original statement is correct, but the implication that the 70 weeks apply to both events is NOT correct.



This passage does not say that the prophecy (as in 70 weeks) has two different applications, it is saying some prophecies in Daniel are repeated in Revelation.




Of course -- but knowing it is near is not the same thing as saying Obama will be president and Christ will come before April 2017 --



That is very true -- and obviously people are still turning from the light and trying to set time for the Lord to come.



Yes, past HISTORY will be repeated -- but you are trying to give prophecies multiple interpretations.
Those are two very different things.

Past HISTORY repeated means things like the persecuting intolerance of the Catholic church will be repeated. Not that the time periods will be repeated.
We have prophecies that show history repeating.




And there is plenty of false interpretations of prophecy floating around today. That is why God sent us a prophet for the last days. And that is why her clear outline is being rejected, and her words taken out of context, in order to give these false interpretations a more convincing tone.

The rejection of the Testimonies was foretold.

HC, I've read most of this thread but wasn't able to find a post where you summarize your points. Can you do that for me? I'll look at it carefully. I'm looking for scripture that would support your position that Reagan is the head of gold. Why Reagan? Also can you give a summary of how the 70 weeks fit in with end time events and how they relate to the 2300 days. Also can you say why you think they'll be repeated twice in literal time. If they are will the 2300 days also repeat twice?

Regarding time reckoning, the prophetic periods are unrelated to the Babylonian calendar. There is no scriptural basis for this. You are mixing the sacred with the common there.

To the rest of the readers, HC's belief that Obama will have a third term is shared by many Evangelicals who are basing their views on modern prophecies that identify Obama as the anti-christ. There is quite a strong consensus among many Evanglicals who believe these dreams and visions. The progression has been that they first thought there would be no election, that Obama would create a false emergency in order to declare marshal law and suspend the election. Then they thought if the election went ahead that Hillary Clinton would win and be the puppet of Obama for a time and that he would either rule through her or take direct control during a post election, engineered crises. Now many Evangelicals are hoping they were wrong and the Trump will actually be President but many are still concerned the Obama will still create a false national emergency or thwart the election in some other way by for example manipulating the electoral college which is to vote today and/or by marshal law before his term expires which would open the door for a third term.

While we shouldn't scoff at any of this, and we ought to be open minded the failed track record of these prophecies so far should make us careful. I've read a good sampling of these and in many cases they seem to come from sincere, bible believing brothers, many of them Sabbath keepers but not Adventists. One important lesson is we need to be on our watch because the final deceptions that will test the elect are here and are getting stronger.

Well, I hope most of us are aware of Jonathan Cahn and others who are hot items these days. But, we should also stay true to the proper Bible study methods of interpreting Bible prophecy.

Ellen G. Whites writings are a far better source than the evangelical world.

Cahn was an effective agent in God's hands in showing that 9/11 was a harbinger of God's displeasure at our national apostasy. Did he identify Obama as anti-Christ? Cahn was also a faithful watchman regarding the SCOTUS gay marriage decision of 2015 and the support that decision was given by the President. But he stopped short of identifying Obama as the anti-Christ if I remember right.

We don't have an official position as a church on the identity of the anti-Christ but we share the belief that Satan will impersonate Christ. We can agree on that much - that when this occurs we will be witnessing the anti-Christ. And there will be human leaders that will be controlled by that spirit before and during Satan's personal appearance as Christ.

Here are the main NT references to the anti-Christ.

President Obama doesn't deny that Christ came in the flesh by his words. He denies in effect the mission of Christ to lift men and women from their enslavement to sin. But this didn't originiate with the President. Both political parties are hostile at different levels to the divine law of love and the morality of the Word. And that Word is Christ.

How many times do people have to be wrong about prophecy and who is anti-Christ before we get the hint to stop listening to them and listen to the Bible and SOP.

We know Satan is the dragon and the anti-Christ is Satan's agent on the earth. That agent can be clearly determined in Revelation 13 as the beast. The first beast in that chapter to be exact.

Are we clear on this?

The Reformers all identified the Papacy and the beast with the Anti-Christ. But it's not that cut and dried. That is why I quoted the scripture. The apostle says that there were many anti-Christ's in his day. If that was true then, it's more true now. The lamb-like beast becomes the agent of the dragon too and the image beast is the final one that is given global authority to enforce the mark of 666. An image is not the same as the beast - it is an image of it.

I'll let it rest. I still hope HC will summarize his thoughts.

kland,

I am more convinced that Obama will be President until Christ comes and that Trump will never be inaugurated, but I cannot be dogmatic about a prophecy that has not been fulfilled.

How did God lead His people in the past? They knew without a doubt that Jesus would come in 1843. Oops the year zero through off their calculation by one year. They knew without a doubt that Jesus would come in 1844. Oops the wrong Sanctuary.

We have nothing to fear except we forget how God has led His people in the past. How was that? With infallibility? no! He allowed them to be almost right and then learn from their errors when the time past and they compared the event to the Scriptures.

And you might look up that no message on time quote again and keep it in context. It does not say what you think it says.

A quick look at time-- Daniel 8:14:
The prophecy of the destruction of the Temple.
.



After Babylon’s 605 BC defeat of Jerusalem, in 535 BC.

Though the 70 years had ended at the beginning of Cyrus’ reign, the rebuilding of the Temple was not finished, and the Jews had not been fully restored to their homeland because the Lord had also said;

From 605 BC, the 70-years doubled (140 years) ended in 465 BC, Artaxerxes accession year. His first year began in 464 BC.

In Bible prophetic calculations, a year has 360 days. The 2300 days prophesied in Daniel 8:14 are 6 years 4 months and 20 days when compared to the 360-day year.

Ezra

The 6 years has ended; it was Artaxerxes’ 7th year; the 4 months had ended; it was the first day of the 5th month (19 days before the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 were to end).

After the 70 years were doubled, the 2300 literal days (Daniel 8:14) were fulfilled, the Temple had been rebuilt, and Ezra, the priest, was in Jerusalem in time for the cleansing of the Sanctuary on the 10th day of the seventh month in 457 BC.

The 2300 years had the same start date, but ended twice 1843 & 1844











Same evidence is same prophecy that predicted three end dates: literal days, and day for a year 1843 & 1844

The 2300 days were long time, i.e., 2300 years that began and ended on the Day of Atonement.

There could be no fulfillment of the prophecy of the tarrying time between 1843 and 1844 if God had not doubled the 2300 years to end twice based on the same evidence from the same prophecy.


Summary:
From 605 BC, the 70 years ended in 535 BC.
70 years doubled, the 140 years ended in 465 BC.
Artaxerxes first year was 565 BC--his 7th year was 457 BC
When the literal 2300 days ended Ezra was in Jerusalem in 457 BC
Ezra in Jerusalem in the seventh year of the king…on the first [day] of the fifth month as the 2300 days were about to end (6 years 4 months 20 days.
The literal fulfillment of the 2300 days of 8:14 is in Ezra 7:8-9
Starting in 457 The 2300 days/years ended in 1843
Starting in 457 The 2300 days/years ended in 1844
The tarrying time was prophesied to intervene between 1843-1844

The evidence for the final fulfillment 70 weeks twice in the endtime is just as impressive, but I'm not going to take the time to share those pearls here right now.

Due to time constraints That is enough for now for this post

What happened in 1843-44 was completely different from what you are doing. The pioneers studied the prophecies and realized they pointed to a date (yes, they were one year out at first, but remedied that), but they didn't go year after year restructuring their dating system to come up ever different interpretations to fit current events.

The time prophecies pointed to that date --
It was a very important date in the outline of salvation history.

The date was a test on TIME.
It was the climax date of the great timelines -- all leading down to the beginning of the judgment, signifying that the "time of the end" had begun.
There is to be no more "test on time".
From that point God's people were to live in an "any day now" state of readiness.
That understanding comes NOT just from one quote, there are a dozen or more. -- No more test on time concerning the second coming, concerning the close of probation, concerning the outpouring of the holy spirit, or concerning any other event between 1844 and the deliverance of God's people.

What is the prophetic earth?




Daniel saw sea beasts in the vision on Daniel 7, but Heaven explained the endtime meaning of the earth kings/American Presidents

Insert Heavens interpretation into the vision:
An American President like a lion
An American President like a bear
An American President like a leopard
An American President like a indescribable beast with iron teeth and brass nails




What happened to the 4th American President









The rest of the beasts are the lion, bear, & leopard (three American Presidents.

A season and a time are measurable.

A prophetic year has 360 days and 4 seasons of 90 days each
A season is 90 days or 90 years
A time is a year already
If the time were 360 years, it would be too long for 4 earth kings

A season and time must be 91 years

Reagan was 90 years old 2/6/2001
On 9/11/01 America was attacked

On 9/11/2001 Reagan was in his 91st year
He was alive as was Bush I & Clinton, and all 3 were out of office



The little horn speaking great things must then be Pope John-Paul II, he was the only pope that Reagan, Bush I, and Clinton knew while they were in office.





But Revelation 13 is repeated in the endtime.





The verses that White wrote out repeat the 42 months. And she did it again.

WILL SURELY TAKE PLACE is in the future.

The verses that White wrote out a second time in a different article repeat the 42 months. And she said the ENTIRE CHAPTER WILL SURELY TAKE PLACE which includes the repeating of the deadly wound that was healed.

Pope John-Paul II literally had a deadly wound- he survived

Reagan healed the papacy's 1798 secular wound on America's behalf when he recognized Pope John-Paul II as a head of state

Bush I healed the papacy's 1798 religious wound on America's behalf when he recognized Pope John-Paul II as THE WORLD'S MORAL LEADER, i.e., the HEAD OF ALL THE CHURCHES

John-Paul II bonded with the lion's mouth (Reagan the great orator), the bear's feet (Bush I) and the leopard's features (Clinton).

The reality is, the spirit of the Counter Reformation is slipping into the door of the Adventist Church, and doing it's best to mingle with, and wrap itself around Adventist end-time beliefs and thus by infiltration and amalgamation unsettle the foundation of prophetic understanding.

The testimonies can be rejected just as surely, while still using them profusely though out of context ways.

Some Adventist Bible students propose we should give serious heed to futurist based interpretations of dispensationalist Christians.

Most of these claim loyalty to the historicist interpretations of Daniel and revelation which we hold as a people. But they don't see that as THE interpretation, as it gets relegated to the back burner and their desire and ambition is to make these prophecies line up with current news.

The only way to keep the illusion of still believing the church's historicist position while pursuing futurist interpretations, is to push for the dual fulfillment devise.

But there is no consistency in this.

Certain portions of the prophecies are lifted out and reapplied while other portions are left out. For example, the 70 weeks are reapplied, but the 2300 days are no longer part of the new interpretation.

The idea that Obama is the last president is not original with HC. There are lots of webpages with scary scenario's saying that about Obama. I suppose if one reads deeply into them they might be convinced.

However, there is something unusual about some of those websites. They tend to predict an "against Christianity" president. They also predict an "anti-pope" that works with this president --
They are not predicting a counterfeit (remember a counterfeit looks like the genuine article) that will deceive the world, they are predicting an evil dictator.

What's even more surprising is that even Catholics support this scenario. There's the believe the United States and other countries, as well as their own church will come under the chastisement of God. There will be great trouble.
But then a true pope will arise and holding his banner high, will lead to (supposed)peace.

The one thing that I see is people may be terribly deceived by thinking a national leader (a president or radical Muslim, or some powerful leader -- or even an anti-catholic pope) is "anti-Christ" in whose wake there is lots of trouble, and when the real anti-Christ comes (the one the Reformers and the testimonies have identified as the papacy)sounding very pious to "bring peace" they will readily accept him.

I think we would do well to stick to Adventist prophecy, and not get side tracked with smoke screen scenarios out of which the real antichrist will emerge as the "good guy" and deceive the world.

It looks like error by association. When some people are shown light that they cannot pigeon hole into their frame of reference, rather than to examine the light fairly, they look for things and people that they know are in error and link the light that they do not understand to the error that they know is error.

That is not the method of Bible study that historicists use. True historicists follow the prophecies from a reliable point in time that can be found in the past to their day.

The Millerites discovered 457 BC and followed it to the day of Christ's Coming in their day. They got the event wrong, but they understood how to follow prophecy to current events. They were Historicists.

Preterits place things in the past and won't allow for an application of prophecy that transcends the understanding that was settled in the past. So to apply prophecy in the past where a partial fulfillment was known and not to allow for the complete and final fulfillment is not Historicism (though some pretend that it is).

Don't forget how God has led His people in the past.

He led them with time prophecy.

He allowed them to be wrong and to learn from their errors.

Those who wanted infallibility as their standard were disappointed and left from following Jesus.

We have nothing to fear of the future except that we forget that God has led His people with time prophecies in in the past and He will do it again right up to the implementation of the Mark of the Beast by President Obama.

To be able to know truth and to cast it aside as though it were not important is a sin that many will commit and not be able to recover from when they at last see their error. The parable of the Ten virgins is at work today.

To have a meaningful dialog, when evidence is presented, it needs to be examined and discussed.

When evidence is presented and it is brushed aside without any consideration, the testimony of the hearer is that they are content in their Laodicean condition and do not want to be bothered with truth that might rock their boat.

Laodicea was rich and they thought that they needed nothing.

IMHO: When Obama stays in office, those who followed Satan's erroneous amalgamation of truth and error will not be drawn to the Remnant Church because of its teaching of truth (the Remnant generally has rejected truth that applies to our time as if it were the counterfeit). So Satan's counterfeit is allowed to do its evil work. It is so close to Present truth that SDA's will fall away and non SDA's will be content with their partial truth until probation closes.

His child wrote;

"What is the prophetic earth?"

HC, you asked this in reference to Daniel 7:17. Daniel 7:17 is part of the interpretation, not the prophecy. So, your question is moot.

And when it does not turn out as you claim, will that strengthen the church?

Knowing Christ and knowing truth are not the same thing. We are saved by Grace, a concept little known amongst Adventists, mainly because it puts to naught all their claims to "have the Truth" and "come into the Truth." The thief on the cross had not idea about "truth" state of the dead, health message, investigative judgement, whatever. But he knew Christ.




Really?? The "Remnant" is NOT the SDA church. The Bible NEVER mentions a "remnant church." It is ALWAYS a remnant people. And they are always characterized by obedience to God. So the above quote exhibits a serious flaw in Biblical understanding, or some personal agenda, and very likely both.


Please give an example of the above, comparing and contrasting the "counterfeit" with the "truth." Point out how this is important to one's salvation, bearing in mind that we are saved by grace.

The more frequently a definite time is set for the second advent, and the more widely it is taught, the better it suits the purposes of Satan. After the time has passed, he excites ridicule and contempt of its advocates, and thus casts reproach upon the great Advent movement of 1843 and 1844. Those who persist in this error will at last fix upon a date too far in the future for the coming of Christ. Thus they will be led to rest in a false security, and many will not be undeceived until it is too late. {GC88 456.2}

The exact time of Christ's second coming is not revealed. Jesus said, No man knoweth the day nor the hour. But He also gave signs of His coming, and said, "When ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." He bade them, as the signs of His coming should appear, "Look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." And in view of these things the apostle wrote: "Ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day." Since we know not the hour of Christ's coming, we must live soberly and godly in this present world, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." . . . {RC 258.4}

We are not of that class who define the exact period of time that shall elapse before the coming of Jesus the second time with power and great glory. Some have set a time, and when that has passed, their presumptuous spirits have not accepted rebuke, but they have set another and another time; but many successive failures have stamped them as false prophets. "The secret things belong unto the Lord our God; but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever." Notwithstanding the fact that there are false prophets, there are also those who are preaching the truth as pointed out in the Scriptures. With deep earnestness, with honest faith, prompted by the Holy Spirit, they are stirring minds and hearts by showing them that we are living near the second coming of Christ; but the day and hour of his appearing are beyond the ken of man; for "of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." {SpTEd 106.2}


Not even your erroneous date of March 29 for the 2017 equinox!

Please share it HC or email me privately. I think you misapply scripture frequently but your thoughts are stimulating because there is some validity in what your saying. One of the best things readers should take note of is that you are right about Ellen White's placing entire chapters such as Revelation 11 and 13 in the future. We dismiss those statements at our peril.

But regarding the 70 weeks, please share it here or privately, mark.shipowick@gmail.com. I've wondered for several years if the 70 weeks doesn't have a final application in literal time or in some other way such as being synchronized with the Jubilees. I don't think though that any of this or any other scripture should be used to predict the return of Christ or the latter rain or judgment of the living. Regarding the cases of the living I tend to think this judgment is under way now and has been for several months if not years, starting with the house of God.

When evidence is repeatedly shown that there are grave inconsistencies in an interpretation, and those are repeatedly ignored, it is true -- there is no meaningful dialog.

The promoter of those novel intepretations then only turns to attacking the other's spirituality, labeling them as Laodicean, etc. etc.


I think your version would only convince Adventists who HAVE NOT studied the Adventist prophetic message in any detail, and thus they don't see all the inconsistencies.

The three angel's message is -- come out of Babylon -- don't adapt the "last day message" to Babylon's interpretations, there is no safety in doing that. Everything is being rigged so people will turn to Babylon for leadership and think by doing so they are escaping the anti-Christ.

Did you missed the point?

Read the prophecy in Daniel 7 again. The prophecy speaks of sea-beasts. The interpretation is about earth-beasts. And the interpretation speaks of brass-nails. No place in the vision will you find a reference to brass-nails.

The interpretation is expanding the prophecy as well as interpreting it by virtue of the fact that the interpretation is adding elements that were not given in the narration of the vision.

No, he didn't miss the point, he simply stated where you go wrong.
You turn the interpretation into an entirely different prophecy, which is NOT the way to understand interpretations.

The sea beasts rising from the sea are symbols of literal kingdoms reigning on the literal earth.

There are NOT another four beasts depicted anywhere in the prophecy of Daniel 7. There are just FOUR beasts in that chapter and they all come out of the sea. There are NO earth beasts. There are four KINGS. Just because the interpretation further talks about the "nails" which Daniel saw on the sea beast does not turn that sea beast into a whole new beast, all it means is that every detail of the sea beast was not written -- I'm sure Daniel saw a lot more details on the sea beasts than what was written.

Four symbolic sea beasts represent four earthly kingdoms.

Your point about the brass nails is interesting, but, you were speaking prophetically about the interpretation. Interpreting the sea beasts as earth beasts is the end of that point Biblically. But, you were perpetuating the point anyway. So, I would say you missed the point.

(bold emphasis mine)

And that is the end of that point. The four sea beasts represent, or are interpreted as, earthly kingdoms.

When the Scriptures and Spirit of Prophecy clearly explain that the earth and sea are different symbols, you would contradict them to say that in Daniel 7 the earth and the sea are the same.

Clearly instead of allowing the Scriptures to explain themselves and to accept a thus saith the Lord, tradition is blinding your eyes to hold a view that was settled before knowledge was increased.

The interpretation of Daniel 7 (7:15-28) IS what Heaven said the vision (7:1-14) meant. When the vision is used to interpret the interpretation, you will not come out with the same understanding that I arrive at when I allow the interpretation to interpret the vision.

When it is understood that the book of Daniel was written in Hebrew and Aramaic,it is helpful. We sometimes use foreign words in English sentences. like "Hey amigo how you doing?"

Since Daniel was bilingual and chapter 7 was in Aramaic and 8 was in Hebrew, can you be dogmatic that the Aramaic words in 7 were not intended to convey a Hebrew meaning?

“The four winds of heaven gûach [strove (Aramaic), brought forth (Hebrew)] rab [captains (A) & (H)] yâm [the great sea (A), from the west (H)]. Four captains living came up from out of the west.” “These…four kings shall arise out of the earth” (7:2-3, 17, ed).

The "captains from the west" alternate interpretation that tosses in a Hebrew meaning for one Aramaic word aligns perfectly with Heaven's interpretation "kings from the earth (American Presidents)"

Mark,

The commands to seal, shut up, and to close Daniel are in Daniel’s last chapter (12:4 & 9), its 3rd portion.

Daniel chapters 8–12.

Since Daniel 9 is in the third portion, and it was fulfilled in Christ’s Day (2000-years ago), how can ALL the events in Daniel 9 now be in the process of fulfillment? There must be a more complete fulfillment coming of that which has been fulfilled.

“The book of Daniel is now unsealed... By the increase of knowledge a people is to be prepared to stand in the latter days. 2SM 105.1”



If that is true, then Daniel 9 has to have its proper place in the 3 angels' messages.



What prophecies in Daniel predicted Christ's First Advent?









until later

In those two verses both the sea and the earth are symbolic.
How do we know?

Because in both a symbolic beast is rising from a symbolic location.
"I saw a (symbolic) beast rise from a (symbolic) sea. Rev. 13:1

The symbolic beast (Roman papacy) rose from the symbolic sea (turbulent European nations always fighting for power)

This first beast in Revelation 13 is the sum of Daniel 7's beasts, with it's bear feet, lion mouth and leopard wings; it had amalgamated and reached the stage of the fourth beast (Rome) by John's day, and in Revelation its future was revealed to John. It would have power for 1260 years, be wounded to death, be revived and be worshipped by the whole world. It would be the guiding hand in the work of the second beast, as everything the second beast does is done for and in the sight of the first beast.


The second beast
"I saw another (symbolic) beast come out of the (symbolic) earth (Rev. 13:11)

Another beast (powerful nation, America) would come up -- not in turbulent Europe, but in a relatively sparsely populated place.




Notice this quote begins with the words:

A NEW SYMBOL IS INTRODUCED
This new symbol is introduced in Revelation. It is not a new or different interpretation of Daniel 7, rather it is a NEW SYMBOL.

Daniel only showed us the continuation of the Roman power through the little horn that would exert tremendous power for 1260 years and be a fierce countenance to reckon with in the end of time.
Daniel also told us that armies would stand on his part, one of which would do so for 1290 years. (Dan 11:31, 12:11) That was the "first son of the church" the Franks that stood behind the papacy from 508 till it turned against her in 1798.

What arms will stand on his part in the time of the end?
That is answered in Revelation 13 -- when a NEW SYMBOL is introduced. The United States of America will stand on his part and cause the whole world to worship the first beast and his image.







No, there is no contradiction.
When it says symbolic beasts rise from symbolic sea or a symbolic beast rises from a symbolic earth, we recognize all the symbolic nature of the phrase.

But that doesn't mean everytime "sea" or "earth" is mention it's always symbolic, we must read the context to determine if a word is symbolic or not.

The words "sea" and "earth" can be either literal or symbolic depending on context.
When beasts arise from the sea or the earth, then sea and earth are symbolic.

But when s symbolic beast and sea is being INTERPRETED,
the resultant explanation that it represents kingdoms upon the earth are literal not symbolic.

The symbolic beast rises from the symbolic sea. Those symbols represents at literal kingdom on the literal earth.

7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,

The fourth symbolic beast from the symbolic sea, shall be the fourth literal kingdom upon the literal earth.

What's interesting is how the evangelical world is doing these very same things with the time prophecies. Always trying to set dates and time periods by reinterpreting time lines.

We are NOT to do that.

Did you realize that they (some evangelical Bible students) figured out that the rapture would take place sometime between Sept. 25 and Dec. 25, 2016?

Not only did they do some figuring using Biblical timelines, to arrive at this conclusion, they also claim God gave them a visual sign in the sky to confirm it.

According to them:
"September 25, 2014 was not only the head of the civil new year on the Hebrew calendar, but it was also the first day of a Smeitah year as well as the first day of the seventh Shemitah year of a 49 year period."

Part of their "evidence" was based on the fact Obama's presidency ends Jan. 2017.

The other part is applying the 2300 day prophecy of Daniel 8.
Rosh HaShanah to Hanukkah
09-09-2010 to 12-25-2016 =2300 days





Though if you check, there have been groups predicting dates for their rapture, or second coming, or end of the world, every year for the last half century.

One thing we can agree on --
The world realizes we are on the edge of something stupendous, and we are!

However, we don't need speculative date settings to know that, those only confuse the issues, and cause people to turn away from all prophecy, because such a heap of calculations have failed.

The main thing we need --
Are we right with our Lord, is our life hid in Him, so we will be able to stand in HIM, no matter when the last crises is unleashed.

Thank you for your response.

How do we know that earth and sea are both symbolic in Daniel 7?

Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 both cover the same material.

They both contain the symbolic sea, lion, bear, leopard, an indescribable beast that is identified by its horns, and the earth. All the symbols in Revelation 13 are linked to Daniel 7. EXCEPT the earth. In Daniel 7 it is said to be LITERAL but in Revelation 13 it is said to be symbolic.

Note that EGW moves from the sea beast in Daniel 7 to the earth beast in Revelation 13. That is not an accident.



The vision in Daniel 7 that uses sea beasts to initially symbolize kingdoms foreshadows the earth kings in the endtime that symbolize American Presidents.

U, The error that you are dogmatically clinging to is to make earth literal in Daniel 7, which makes the symbolic sea to be the literal earth. That exegesis is incorrect.





But because God sealed the book of Daniel until the endtime, the translators ignored 7:17 and translated 7:24 not as it relates to kings from the earth as in Heaven's interpretation, but as kingdoms as they understood the vision before consulting the interpretation.



In light of Heaven's direct interpretation (7:17) that the beasts are KINGS FROM THE EARTH how would 7:23 read if the translators had followed the interpretation instead of reverting to their historical understanding of the vision?






The evidence:
1) Spirit of prophecy goes directly from sea symbol in Daniel 7 to earth symbol in Revelation 13 (SYMBOL TO SYMBOL)
2)Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 cover the same material using the same symbols, but of all the symbols that occur in both chapters only one symbol is changed to literal in D7 to make it out of harmony with R13
3) The book of Daniel was sealed until the endtime
4) The translators could have translated kingdom as kingly throne or reign in 7:23 BUT they chose to go with tradition rather than context BECAUSE it was sealed
5) knowledge has increased
6) There is a class that refuses to follow light as it progresses

How did God lead His people in 1843 and 1844? With time prophecy!

The rejection of the existence of time prophecies after 1844 is forgetting how God has led us in our past history. Forgetting that should cause us to fear for our future!

But the Spirit of Prophecy is taken from its context to make it a lie.

The warning against setting times for Christ's coming is twisted into a warning against all time prophecies.

All time prophecies is different than prophetic time that gives the definite time of Christ's Advent.

U, be careful that you do not fall into the trap that will get the Laodiceans who do not heed Christ's words.

Accepting the error about no time prophecy after 1844 and between Christ's Advent will be the damnation of many who cast their shadow between light from Heaven and seekers for truth. The Laodiceans turn honest souls from the path of truth by their unbelief.

Then like the Evangelicals, the rejectors of the sure word of God may comfort themselves and others by focusing on Jesus.

There are seven churches identified in Revelation. Apostate Christian churches uplift Jesus in name only as it is written:

There will always be false and fanatical movements made by persons in the church who claim to be led of God—those who will run before they are sent, and will give day and date for the occurrence of unfulfilled prophecy. The enemy is pleased to have them do this, for their successive failure and leading into false lines cause confusion and unbelief. There is enough revealed and substantiated by the Word of God to show the lines upon which they can work. The labor performed in harmony with the mind of Christ will produce most healthful impressions and a genuine experience. {Lt28-1897}

Many who have called themselves Adventists have been time setters. Time after time has been set for Christ to come, but repeated failures have been the result. The definite time of our Lord's coming is declared to be beyond the ken of mortals. Even the angels who minister unto those who shall be heirs of salvation know not the day nor the hour. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Because the times repeatedly set have passed, the world is in a more decided state of unbelief than before in regard to the near advent of Christ. They look upon the failures of the time setters with disgust; and because men have been so deceived, they turn from the truth substantiated by the word of God that the end of all things is at hand. {4T 307.1}

The world placed all time proclamation on the same level and called it a delusion, fanaticism, and heresy. Ever since 1844 I have borne my testimony that we were now in a period of time in which we are to take heed to ourselves lest our hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon us unawares. Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord’s coming. We do not know the day nor the hour, or when the definite time is, and yet the prophetic reckoning shows us that Christ is at the door. {Lt38-1888}

This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {Ms59-1900}

Time setting leads to unbelief.

You have the quotes, but you divorce them from their context. Or you give quotes that cannot be verified in their context.



The first 2 sentences of this quote from Lt28 appear in the EGW CD. But the last portion cannot be verified on my EGW CD

The following quote in context is saying BECAUSE OF THE DEFINITE TIMES REPEATEDLY SET HAVE PAST. I have not set a DEFINITE TIME FOR THE LORD TO COME so this quote is being misapplied if yo are trying to apply it to my work




As I pointed out earlier there is a difference in the Spirit of prophecy between prophetic time that is the definite time of Christ's Advent and ALL PROPHETIC TIME which is causing confusion in the world. The superficial student will go with the world's confusion and misread and misapply the SoP's counsel!




Time setting OF THE DAY AND HOUR OF CHRIST'S COMING leads to unbelief. Forgetting how God has led us in our past history should cause us to fear for the future!

Henry, Henry! - - you think that what I posted cannot be verified? By you maybe, but they are readily available from the online at White Estate. And perhaps you have not been paying attention to what has been published in the last year; all the EGW Letters and Manuscripts are available. And not only available online, but you can download them and use them with Folio Views which is the program that runs the EGW CD-ROM. Read them in context and they speak directly to what you have been doing. What will you do when April 1, 2017 comes around? Will you then accuse everyone that does not see the evidence as you do of being a superficial student misreading and misapplying the SoP? Will you change you dates?

That surprises me. I spoke to the EGW Estates some time ago while doing research and was told that everything on my CD was all that would be available and that they had no more material that would be released. Now you say that they have released more.

They have not kept is a secret! The CD contains all the PUBLISHED material, that is true. But you apparently have been out of the loop for a number of years with respect the the unpublished material, I won't go into the details that went on include law suits, etc. It was announced several years ago that the material would be made available. I will even help you out! Here is a link to download all the letters and manuscripts which you can use with your EGW CD-ROM program. No, I do not do program support but it is easy to use.

http://ellenwhite.org/content/letters-and-manuscripts-collection

If you have a smart phone or a Windows 10 PC or a Mac computer, you can download all the published and unpublished material for FREE. Though I like the older CD-ROM program myself as it is easier to use IMHO.

Back to the topic that you fear of the shortness of time in your interpretation, I quote EGW:

The shortness of time is frequently urged as an incentive for seeking righteousness and making Christ our friend. This should not be the great motive with us; for it savours of selfishness. Is it necessary that the terrors of the day of God should be held before us, that we may be compelled to right action through fear? It ought not to be so. Jesus is attractive. He is full of love, mercy, and compassion. He proposes to be our friend, to walk with us through all the rough pathways of life. {BEcho, June 25, 1894 par. 7}

Life eternal does not come from knowing Obama will or will not be president. It comes from knowing God, as He is. Something I never see you talk about. It is always about you an your interpretations and how rejecting your interpretation will lead to destruction, like the story of the 10 virgins. Henry Hills interpretation is not the last message to be given to the world. The last message of mercy is presented in COL page 415.

But what about that which you can verify, which was APL's emphasis? What about it's context before going on to the other?


Here's something that IS on the CD:

There are little companies continually arising who believe that God is only with the very few, the very scattered, and their influence is to tear down and scatter that which God's servants build up. There are restless minds who want to be seeing and believing something new continually, who arise, some in one place and some in another, all doing a special work for the enemy, yet claim to have the truth. They stand separate from the people whom God is leading out and prospering, and through whom he is to do his great work. They are continually expressing their fears that the body of Sabbath-keepers are becoming like the world; but there are scarcely two of these whose views are in harmony. They are scattered and confused, and yet deceive themselves so much as to think that God is especially with them. Some of these profess to have the gifts among them; but the influence and teachings of these gifts are to hold in doubt those upon whom God has laid the special burden of his work, and to lead off a class from the body. The people who are putting forth every effort in accordance with God's word to be one, who are established in the message of the third angel, they look upon with suspicion, for the reason that they are extending their labor, and are gathering souls into the truth. They look upon them as being worldly, because they have influence in the world, and their acts testify that they expect God to do a special and great work yet upon the earth, to bring out a people, and fit them for Christ's appearing. This class do not know what they really believe. They are ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. {4bSG 158.2}

You can continue reading it on the CD.

The www.whiteestate.org website has more writings available than what you originally bought on your CD. I know, that website has more writings than my 2008 comprehensive CD as well.

"Rejection of the Testimonies" is a trivial matter. Consider what Paul says in 1 Timothy 4, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith:

• giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
• speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron --- [A] forbidding to marry, and [B] commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth."

In other words, there will come a time when a people will rise up adding celibacy and 'a health message' to the gospel of salvation, overturning Romans 14 in their misguided zeal; guided as it were by a false prophet and leadership that secretly practice the very things they forbid.

And the people will love to have it so.

///

Ah, once again we hear from Mr. (Friar?) Peterson: "friend of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church"!


"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee..." Hosea 4:6

In God's eyes, "Rejection of the Testimonies" is NOT a trivial matter!"


As you say, let us "Consider what Paul says in 1 Timothy 4, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith:
- giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
- speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron"


I see you are still broadcasting your shallow understanding of scripture. Or are you being deliberately obtuse? A deeper, more thoughrough, study of Romans 14 would reveal to you that Paul is speaking of meat offered to idols. Since the fake gods behind the idols do not exist eating meat offered to them is irrelevant and not a sign of a weak faith.

Of course, the only meats to abstain from are those the designer of the human body has told us are unhealthy (unclean). His dietary law contains all of the "...foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving [b]by those who believe and know the truth."

Romans 14 is also commonly used in a futile attempt to nullify God's Ten Commandments, particularly the Sabbath Command. The changeless character of the Almighty was inscribed in His perfect Law. The Ten Commandments were written in stone by the finger of God and proclaimed in the presence of all Israel. They were then repeated (especially the Sabbath Command) over and over throughout the Scriptures.

Is the Holy Law of God so often repeated set aside by a solitary reference to "esteeming one day above another"?

A deeper, more faithful, examination of the text leads to the undeniable conclusion that Paul is referring to the seven annual sabbaths contained in the ceremonial Law: Passover, Tabernacles, etc.

Perhaps, those studying Romans 14 should also read the last half of Hosea 4:6, "...seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."


Mr. (Friar?) Peterson, you claim that this Church commands celibacy?
I am not certain where you obtained your spotty knowledge of SDA teachings.
Perhaps a quote or two from your favourite endtimes prophetess will clear things up for you:

"Chapter 18—Marital Duties and Privileges
Jesus Did Not Enforce Celibacy—Those who regard the marriage relation as one of God's sacred ordinances, guarded by His holy precept, will be controlled by the dictates of reason.1A Solemn Appeal," 139. AH 121.1

"Jesus did not enforce celibacy upon any class of men. He came not to destroy the sacred relationship of marriage, but to exalt it and restore it to its original sanctity. He looks with pleasure upon the family relationship where sacred and unselfish love bears sway.2Manuscript 126," 1903. AH 121.2

"Marriage Is Lawful and Holy—There is in itself no sin in eating and drinking, or in marrying and giving in marriage. It was lawful to marry in the time of Noah, and it is lawful to marry now, if that which is lawful is properly treated and not carried to sinful excess. But in the days of Noah men married without consulting God or seeking His guidance and counsel...." AH 121.3

Ellen White


Here are the closing words of your post:

"In other words, there will come a time when a people will rise up adding celibacy..."
(As the above quotes from the co-founder of the SDA Church, Ellen White, clearly show, this is false!

...and 'a health message' to the gospel of salvation, overturning Romans 14 in their misguided zeal;
(So... adhering to God's health laws is a bad thing??? Are you suggesting Christians should smoke cigarettes and eat unhealthy food? Would this somehow increase our faith?)

"...guided as it were by a false prophet and leadership that secretly practice the very things they forbid."
(You've completely lost me with this bit???)

"And the people will love to have it so."
(What is it we will love? Do you mean the biblical diet? Before God led me to His remnant Church, I used to really enjoy bacon, smoked ham, crab, oysters etc. After accepting God's dietary plan, I do love feeling healthier and looking forward to a longer lifespan. Is that what you mean?)
(Are you suggesting we will love celibacy? Umm, I can't speak for every member, but my opinion is, vive la différence!)

Mr. (Friar?) Peterson, I was reading over your post and while it bears no resemblance at all to the Seventh Day Adventist Church, it occurred to me that there is a (so called) church that it describes perfectly!


"Rejection of the Testimonies" is a trivial matter. Consider what Paul says in 1 Timothy 4, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith:
giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron --- [A] forbidding to marry, and [b]commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth."


"Rejection of the testimonies"
- this church rejected truth in favour of human tradition.

"Will depart from the faith"
- this church abandoned faith in God and now trusts in its hierarchy of elevated men.
- it has replaced the Grace of God with salvation by works.


"Giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons"
- this church adopted a trinitarian theology that in effect makes Jesus a created being.
- it has accepted and encouraged the demonic doctrine of worship and prayer to the dead.
- it has committed blaspheme by usurping the prerogative of God to forgive sin and even declared its leader to be another God on Earth!

"speaking lies in hypocrisy"
- it has claimed sinless infallibility while falsely accusing others in order to obtain temporal
power.
- it has claimed the power to change the perfect Law of God
- it has erased the second Commandment to permit itself the worship of idols
- it openly boasts of changing the fourth Commandment, replacing the Seventh Day Sabbath of God with its own mark of authority the first day Sunday worship

"having their own conscience seared with a hot iron"
- in the name of its false man/god, it has imprisoned, tortured, and murdered untold millions of innocent human beings without the slightest pang of conscience or acknowledgement of guilt.

"forbidding to marry"
- it has forbidden its priests and nuns to marry, thus disobeying the command of God to "be fruitful and multiply" while simultaneously engendering homosexuality and pedophilia within its ranks.

"commanding to abstain from foods"
- it has commanded its adherents to abstain from warm-blooded flesh meat on Friday as a penance, thereby diminishing the sacrifice of Christ as sufficient for forgiveness of sin.


This church seems to be a perfect match for 1Timothy 4, wouldn't you agree, Mr. (Friar?) Peterson. I have a hunch that a traditionalist such as yourself is familiar with the Mother of Harlots known as the Catholic Church?

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." -- Queen Gertrude (from Hamlet by William Shakespeare: Act III, Scene II)

///

Mr. Peterson, your use of fiction to mock Truth does suit your views very nicely...



"The time has come when those who are rooted and grounded in the truth may manifest their firmness and decision, may make known the fact that they are unmoved by the sophistry, maxims, or fables of the ignorant and wavering. Without foundation men will make statements with all the positiveness of truth; but it is of no use to argue with them concerning their spurious assertions. The best way to deal with error is to present the truth, and leave wild ideas to die out for want of notice. Contrasted with truth, the weakness of error is made apparent to every intelligent mind."

Ellen G White
TM 165.1

Too bad you(and many others here) doesn't listened to EGW counsel above.... "The best way to deal with error is to present the truth". .... be specific ProdigalOne. Where is James error? Show why do you think it is an error by bringing forth scriptures.

If you will read my post, you will see that 1 Timothy 4 was quoted and discussed.
The Truth was presented. Anyone with an open mind and a Bible can research the relevant scriptures. I have no desire to waste my time trotting out the same old verses to prove the same points that have been made over and over on this forum. It is tedious and unfruitful when everyone involved has heard and made up their minds on a topic.

It is all too obvious that Mr. Peterson will not be moved from his shallow unbiblical views. His purpose here is to spread the Jesuit inspired wine of Babylon and waste the time of those who believe God's Word.

Elle, you appear to be an extremely fast typist with an exorbitant quantity of time on your hands. If you wish to repeat basic doctrine, ad infinitum, to an audience that has already decided to stubbornly disagree with simple Truth then be my guest.

Incidentally, Mr. Peterson has already mocked me for the lengthiness of my reply to his post. Do you really believe that the best solution to this is more words?

I perceive that your grasp of the literary device leaves much to be desired; and hence your inability to correctly interpret first century literature, viz-a-viz 1 Tim. 4:1-4.

Paul emphasized his point to Timothy by saying further that he (Timothy) was "nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed. But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things ..." (v. 6-8)

As he says in Rom. 14:17, "the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." It is this moving away from freedom in the gospel towards austere doctrines tied on the backs of people that Paul warns Timothy against.

He says, "Reject ..."

///

Good point inspiration Bro.

So, Mr. Peterson, you believe that God's instructions for healthy eating in the Old Testament are suddenly defunct in the New Testament?

Well, if the Pope, or whatever cultish figurehead you obtain your doctrine from (it certainly isn't God or His holy Word) tells you that consuming feces eating bottom feeders and trichinosis infected parasite hosts is the "spiritually enlightened" thing to do, then I guess you had better dig in!

Here are a some facts for you to chew on while you are chowing down on your bacon wrapped lobster. There is a certain group that follows the original diet given to Adam and Eve in Eden (the same diet that the saved will enjoy in heaven by the way). Among this group cancer is almost nonexistent and centenarians are plentiful.

Can you guess what group I am referring to? I'll give you a hint, it isn't Catholics or Evangelicals...

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

John 10:10

Just to be absolutely clear, I do not believe that eating a particular diet is the path to salvation. What matters is who we choose to follow.


Jesus comes to give us life.
Satan comes to give us death.

So, eating unhealthy food that God said is unclean and that we know shortens life is following which one?

God's instructions in the Old Testmanent for eating was part of the objective of keeping the Hebrews to himself, separate from the idolatrous world around them (Deut. 14:21). In Christianity however, God's people do not keep to themselves but live, work and play with everyone: remaining morally pure (John 20:21 & Rom. 14).

This means that you may share a MacDonald's hamburger with a Roman Catholic best friend, but insist on paying at least part of the bill. One may enjoy bacon and eggs for breakfast with a good Mormon neighbour, but resist the temptation to go after his attractive wife. (1 Cor. 10:25,26 then 8:7)

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, 'If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'" -- John 8:32

///

///

The subject of this thread is "Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold". Indeed Ellen White did write words to those effect, erroneously (perhaps even blasphemously) elevating her books to the "Testimony of Jesus Christ".

@ProdigalOne, what do you say?

///

Hmmm, I'm not sure how eating bacon equates to spiritual liberty, as long as I don't seduce a Mormon's wife?

I have had many relatives, neighbours, and friends who's beliefs ranged from Athiest, Baptist, Pentecostal, Sikh, Hudderite, Mennonite, Morman, Wiccan, Native Medicine Man, Muslim, and even (gasp!) Catholic. I have shared meals, socialized, and discussed spirituality with more than I can recall; however, I don't ever remember finding it necessary to eat unclean, unhealthy, life shortening food in order to love my neighbour...

Was the Lord's list of unclean foods merely a way of making Israel "peculiar"?
Is His wisdom so limited that there is no lesson for today?


"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

Sister White connected the health message closely to the third angel's message.
Rejecting her counsel on the topic of health is a huge "rejection of the testimonies".
In fact, you are fulfilling her prophesy right now Mr Peterson.
Thank-you for helping her to pass the prophet's test of Deuteronomy 18!

Incidentally, you have done your best to deride Ellen White at every opportunity: I wonder, have you read any of her books? I don't mean hasty searches on the white lie website, I mean an entire book? If not then your attitude seems rather disingenuous. Reading The Great Controversy or The Desire of Ages cover to cover would be a good, honest, approach to debunking her claims of Devine inspiration.

Looks like Donald Trump is going to become the next President of the United States, that will show that it was a false prophecy regarding Obama having a 3rd term as President of the United States, becoming a dictator, or whatever.

But then there's the spring equinox. Or is it somewhere around near there. Wait for a new date sometime this fall.

That's quite likely. We know HC has set a date for Christ's second coming this spring. (By putting in an artificial extension to Obama's term)


I won't be surprised if we next hear of another extension -- another date in the fall -- It's the way it always happens with those who like to map out last day events with the calendar.
Dozens of failed dates, followed by extension after extension, but seeing the world ripe for those last days to fully develop gives them hope that their next date will actually turn out to be right.

We are sitting on the edge of time -- but setting dates only confuses the issue and actually destroys the true preparing for eternity necessary which comes, not in panic preparation to meet a certain date, but from a daily walk with Christ. We are to watch and pray for we don't know when the great tribulation will begin or when Christ will come --

Instead of looking at and bring attention to Trump adding yet more mechanisms in place as past presidents have done, that our freedoms to lead others to Christ are getting shorter and shorter, he mandates a time restriction for God to fulfill.

I thought I'd mention that the first distinction mentioned between clean and unclean animals was shortly before the flood (Gen 7:2) when describing how many animals would enter the ark. Further, because it's so matter of factly stated without explanation, it can be presumed that Noah already knew about this distinction and that it predated the time of the flood. Even if it was something new at that time, when Noah and his family left the ark there was no one for them to be kept separate from.


"In Christianity however, God's people do not keep to themselves but live, work and play with everyone: remaining morally pure"

Yet by beholding we become. This is not to say I'm promoting an extreme of isolationism, shunning all contact with others, but that the influences that others have on us should not be taken lightly. The more attached we are to someone, the more willing we are to trust their judgement and do as they do.

When you say "play", do you mean actively engage in the same entertainment? What about gambling? Does a Christian enter a casino, gamble their way into a frenzy of worldly excitement and lust for money, and remain pure? I don't actually think you would include that as acceptable for a Christian, but then there must be at the very least some distinction between what the world does and what we do. We believe that this distinction does not end at obvious sins that even the rest of the world warns against, such as drunkennness or the adultery that you mentioned. Our bodies, being temples, should be kept in good repair.


2Co 6:14-18
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.




But in the Kingdom of God we do still eat and drink, so it's not a non-issue. What he was saying is that the outward following of rules is not of itself what true godliness and righteousness consists of. The religion of the Pharisees was often all about their rules. It was their own rules that they were effectively worshiping.

Also, regarding Jesus's statement "If ye continue in My word, then are ye My disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Free from what? Jesus then explained "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."

So if by committing sin freedom is lost and servitude is gained, then the freedom here must be freedom from continuing to follow sin through the dictates of the lusts of the flesh and through the deceitfully wicked unrenewed heart. This does not mean we are free to commit sin again, as if sin was no longer sinful for us as some Christians throughout the ages have claimed. If by committing sin we were made servants of sin then continuing to sin would only keep us in bondage. The freedom offered by Jesus is the true reconciliation of man to God by receiving the love of God and a restoration to the image of God in us.

At no point in this is a command to abolish the restriction against what was once sinful. Sinners are not reconciled to God through the abolishing of the law. Even in the Garden of Eden, when Adam and Eve were without fault and in perfect harmony with the will of God, there was a restriction against eating a certain food. There was also no mention of an allowance to eat meat when what would be their diet was spelled out to them.

When Adam and Eve chose to obey the suggestion of the serpent and distrust God they effectively gave their obedience to Satan. Yet, in the first promise of the Messiah, God said "I will put enmity between thee and the woman". In other words, our obedience to Satan would be replaced with enmity, and our enmity to God would be replaced by a restoration to the genuine love for God that we once had. The Truth, Jesus, is what makes us free.

Wonderfully said, Josh! Amen!

That's not true. It was neither a nice nor accurate reply at all, being riddled through and through with misunderstandings and mischaracterizations.

Deuteronomy 14:21

"You shall not eat anything that dies of itself; you may give it to the alien who is within your gates, that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner; for you are a holy people to the Lord your God."

Romans 14:14,20

"I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean .... All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense."

Matthew 15:10-11

"When [Jesus] had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, 'Hear and understand: not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.'"

Conclusion

It is evident therefore, that one may eat as one pleases in accordance with one's ability to eat as might be customary and traditional. Some people can eat wheat, some cannot. Most people can stomach dairy food, a few cannot. As Paul says, "Food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse." (1 Cor. 8:8)

Final Thoughts

YOU SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH, AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE.
--- Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God

///

It's true what Josh said, Christ came to save people from sin.

Matt. 1:21 and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Sin, sinful habits and character traits are bondage that destroy a person. Sin consists of the chains by which satan ties us to the train of misery and death. First deceiving us that sin is fun and good, then shackling us to hopelessness and death.
Christ came to set us free, not only from the guilt of sin, but from the bondage of sin.

When we truly reach out to Christ and accept Him as our LORD and Savior, indeed we will know the truth and be set free.
Our characters will be changed, our desires will be changed, we will become new creatures in Christ.

Some tend to see Paul's lament against those who thought their following the rules released them from their guilt and sinfulness and need of a Savior, as somehow evidence that these verses releases them to live in sin without guilt, but in this they are confusing Paul's words.

It's true there is no salvation in our works, however, a person in Christ will delight to do God's will, their lives will change.
Though there is no merit in our obedience, yet obedience is evidence as to who our master is.

And who our master is -- that determines our eternal destiny!


Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon, or count, yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey sin and fulfill the lusts of it.
6:13 Do not yield the members of your body as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and the members of your body as instruments of righteousness unto God.
6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are no longer condemned under the law, you are under grace.
6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
6:16 Do you not know, that when you yield yourselves servants to obey someone, his servants you are whom you obey; whether you obey sin unto death, or follow obedience unto righteousness?
6:17 But God be thanked, that even though you were the servants of sin, you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
6:18 And then being made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.
6:22 Now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

We are to be God's servants, seeking to follow His will.

Too many confuse this into saying freedom is freedom from following God's will. That is twisting Paul's words unto their own destruction.

A brief commentary on James' verses below


Are you quoting this to say it is healthy to eat the meat of animals that die of themselves? Hopefully not.
Even non-religious meat eaters would contend that animals that die of themselves are not a safe or even pleasurable food source.
God sometimes allows things "because of the stiffness of their necks". If a stranger sees nothing wrong with it, OK, let him have it -- but it's not a good food source.




We need to read that one in context rather than giving it a generalized application. Many take Romans 14 as a generalized recommendation that a person can eat and worship anyway they please and as long as they have some kind of faith they will never suffer from any consequences.

But that is not the message.
The chapter talks about judgment --

14:10 we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Christians in Rome during Paul's day, were arguing over whether they could eat the food in the market place -- much of which was first dedicated to idols in the pagan temples. They were arguing over days of fasting and whether they could eat on those days or had to fast.

Paul stresses that they are to live and to die not to their own pleasure but for Christ. Each stands and falls only to his Lord, and He is the one Judge who passes judgment on his servants.
Each is to encourage the others in following Christ, not picking on each other.
But we do need to seek out the Lord's will for our lives and live for HIM! We are to live and die for Him! For yes, we are accountable to God.





Indeed eating does not cleanse us from sin, only Christ's forgiveness and cleansing can do that.
We are defiled by sin and any pretense that the ceremonial washing of hands or other ritual can somehow change that is an illusion. What comes out of the mouth shows and strengthens the defilement of sin that is within.

Which brings us back to the point made in my previous post. It is Christ that saves us from sin. When He comes into our lives, what comes out of our mouths is different from what it was before we gave our lives to Christ.

This text is not saying eating unhealthy stuff will not hurt our health --
God wants us to be healthy and in His love and grace has given guidelines to help us to that end.

Healthy eating is NOT what saves us, it does not earn us salvation -- only Christ can save us.
However, we are to eat healthy and be "eating and drinking to the glory of God" --simply following His will for our lives --

And yes -- freedom -- good health is a wonderful thing!
If you have good health you have a freedom that is worth more than anything in this world.

There is little freedom for those suffering of cancer or so many other diseases that are influenced in a large degree by what one eats. (There are enough disease causing elements in this world without inflicting more upon ourselves by careless eating habits)
Strangely many non-religious people are realizing the truth of this, while sadly many who have been blessed with God given health counsel scoff.

Talk about misunderstandings and mischaracterizations, was Jesus' point about eating?

No. He was talking about sightseeing, so that one may say that it is not what enters the eye (what one looks at) but what comes out the eye (tears and rheum, perhaps) which defiles a man. Or was it all about the need to honour one's parents? It's such a hard parable!

Matthew 15:16-17 cf Mark 7:18-19

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Since I first opened this thread I've had some time to reflect on the significance of Ellen White's prediction of the rejection of her gift and testimonies. Humanly speaking it seems like the church is decades or even centuries away from officially rejecting her as a prophet. But we need to keep in mind that a crises can change things in short order. And she does predict such a crises. It's called the shaking.

Since the early days of our church we've known that a spiritual shaking is underway and that it will intensify. For those not familiar with the most vivid description of this event by Ellen White click here. This is one of her most fascinating, sobering prophecies. But it is still in the future. The internal struggle she describes has played out in many of our lives individually on a lesser scale but never at this level of broad corporate intensity. However as we witness conditions in the world and in our ranks we can hear divine rumblings that the pangs of the final shaking are upon us. One of those signs is the discovery of her prediction.

Sabbath, September 17, 2016 I came across this statement below that I quoted at the start of this thread. It was released for the first time in July of 2015 by the White Estate. This prediction has never been published and is nestled in among the 50,000 pages that were released so it's hard to say how many are aware of it now but probably not many.

In her later writings she makes statements warning that this is entirely possible but none of her other statements are so direct as to plainly say that it will happen. This statement, of course, doesn't mean it is inevitable, but only that God, knowing the futures sees the choice that the church will make. Like Moses before his death who plainly stated that Israel would apostatize, like Paul who clearly predicted the great falling away, Ellen White makes the same prediction. In all three cases the pattern is identical – the majority will prove unfaithful but a remnant of God's people will always remain. For more inspired commentary on on this see Ellen White, Testimonies Vol. 5, The Testimonies Slighted, Pages 62 – 84.

That this statement was recently released is no co-incidence. God reveals truth when it is needed. He is graciously alerting us to the danger lurking ahead – circumstances that will shake each one of us to the core of our beings.

Another sign that is along these lines is the growing awareness among Adventists that Ellen White places most of the prophecies of Revelation in the future, not merely the plagues, but most all of Revelation 4 to 14 as well. This sub-group within the church is not well known because most Adventist futurists have discredited themselves by setting dates and focusing excessively on time charts. But there are some well known ministers and evangelists who've avoided those pitfalls and who imply by their messages or in some cases acknowledge openly that the bulk of Revelation's prophecies apply to the final generation that will face the final test, the mark of the beast.

God always gives us fair warning and that is the purpose of Revelation which is a revelation of Christ. For years we have known that the Lord is waiting for His people to internalize the message to the Laodiceans and to reflect Him in character fully. If Revelation is a revelation of the character of Christ it must focus primarily on end time events because this is where His character is fully revealed in His people.

Below is a sampling of her statements re-applying the Apostle John's prophecies to the future:


Besides the ones given above, there are several other similar specific statements that when taken together and given their plain meaning place most of Revelation 4 to 14 (including all of 13), in the future. Most of these prophecies (Revelation 4 to 14) also have past fulfillments but according to the prophet, all of them apply “preeminently” to the end. Someone may ask; “Then what do you do with the time elements within the prophecies?”. Like all scripture, we know in part and that's especially the case regarding unfulfilled prophecy. So we leave those elements that we don't understand, like other scripture; with the Lord. We don't discount them and we also don't preach them.

Another sign that in the near future it will no longer be business as usual is that certain neglected prophetic writings are awakening interest. Ezekiel's temple which is described in the last nine chapters of that book is a depiction of the remnant church and the 144,000. This vision is a mother lode of truth for the final generation that is beginning to be mined. We as Adventist's should have made this our study decades ago. The nuggets pointing to a much greater deposit such as a seven day spring atonement are strewn broadcast on the surface and now some are picking them up, examining them and starting to dig.

Then there are the unfulfilled aspects of the seventy week prophecy of Daniel 9. Some are awakening to the fact that the division of the sixty nine weeks into two segments, 7 and 62, has never been fulfilled. Others have observed that 70 Jubilees will be completed this spring from Israel's first occupation of the Promised Land. And since a Jubilee is itself a unit of seven, we have seventy times seven, the figure Christ used to indicate the limit of divine forbearance.

The last notable sign covered here before closing is that some Adventist Bereans see that the Feast of Trumpets, like the division of the 69 weeks into two segments, has never been fulfilled and they see the close parallels between the seven trumpets of Revelation 8 to 11 and the conquest of Jericho. Like Ezekiel's temple, more study on this topic is needed. If we want a window into the meaning of the seven trumpets which Ellen White places in the future, the siege and destruction of Jericho is the closest match in scripture. There we have the seven days with seven trumpet blasts and the loudest blast that brought down the walls on the seventh day appears as a type of the seventh trumpet that announces the end of Babylon and the beginning of the reign of Christ. Rev. 11:15-19.

The silence in heaven that introduces the trumpets (Rev 8:1) is also paralleled in the conquest of Jericho. A half hour of silence in prophetic time is a week of literal time. The Israelites were to be completely silent as they marched for seven days. Then on the seventh day at the sounding of the trumpets, they were to shout.

The timing and circumstances of the conquest should be considered as well. Israel had just crossed the Jordan and began to possess the land because it was a day of judgment for the the Canaanites whose iniquity was full. The men of Israel had just been circumcised and the reproach of Israel removed. The first Passover in the Promised Land had just been celebrated. The counting of the Jubilee had just begun, year 1 of the first Jubilee cycle. It was in the spring, and the conquest began either during Unleavened Bread for seven days or right after it. I'm still studying it.

When prayerfully considered, the evidence continues to mount that we are approaching that time when the Lamb takes the scroll, breaks the seals and the seven trumpets begin to sound shaking the sleeping virgins awake with an overwhelming surprise. It may not unfold this way but this scenario is a front running candidate for fulfilling Ellen White's prediction of “an overwhelming surprise.” If things do unfold in this way we can easily envision that in the aftermath of the first trumpet, we the sleeping virgins hurriedly arouse ourselves, trim our lamps and “at the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully.” Ellen White, Early Writings page 33.

I'm afraid I see the rejection of the landmarks established in prophecy as the rejecting the testimonies.

However, there is more depth to the prophecies and this is reality we need to dig into, but to reject the landmarks established in prophecy will not anchor us into truth, but cause us to depart from it.

In this post I wish to dwell on Revelation 4,5,6, which lead into the seals.

Mark pointed us to the chapter by EGW on the "The Shaking".
A Question -- that chapter begins with agonizing and many falling away, but ends with the remnant moving forward with great strength. What made them so strong?

Answer -- they prayed for, and received a fuller outpouring of the Holy Spirit -- the latter rain.

What is Revelation 4 and 6 about?

These chapters cover the Christian experience -- beginning with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit when the Christian church was first born.

Following the blueprint of salvation portrayed by the feasts --these chapters show the “first fruit sheaf” accepted before the Lord, followed by the outpouring at Pentecost.

Christ is declared "WORTHY" and is inaugurated into his royal priesthood.

A magnificent picture of the sanctuary in heaven emerges in these chapters. "After these things I looked and behold a door standing open in heaven". . .and John saw "seven lamps of fire burning before the throne." There are also golden bowls full of incense.

A door in heaven is open. (Rev. 4:1) What door is this?

The word "door" "thura," in Revelation 4:1 appears many times in the Septuagint in direct reference to the door into the sanctuary. Leviticus 3:1 tells us the sacrifice is killed at the "thura" of the tabernacle.

And here in heaven we see the Lamb that has already been slain! The sacrifice was offered, and now the door into the heavenly sanctuary is open. The work of Christ's heavenly priesthood is to begin.

In Leviticus we read:
“And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you.” Lev. 23:11 The single sheaf, presented to the Lord here, during the Jewish feasts, speaks of the person of our Lord Jesus Christ. He is the sheaf of first fruits
(1 Corinthians 15:20-23) “For now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept.


Christ’s first work is to light the lampstands! Notice again the seven lampstands in Revelation 4, this time they are referred to as seven spirits. "Seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God." Remember the consternation - is anyone worthy? Before His ascension Jesus told the disciples to wait for the Promise of the Holy Spirit which would come upon them. And they would be witnesses "to the end of the earth". (Acts 1:4-8)

When Christ was accepted as the "ONE" worthy to begin the work in the sanctuary, He sent out His Holy Spirit to His messengers on earth.

Compare this with Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost when the followers of Christ were filled with the Holy Spirit:
Acts 2.32-33 "This Jesus has God raised up, and has now exalted by His right hand, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he has shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."

Revelation 4 and 5 show Christ being exalted in heaven, His sacrifice declared worthy and acceptable, the work of the sanctuary begun, and THE HOLY SPIRIT given to the church upon earth. The day of Pentecost marked the opening of Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary. The first phase of His Priestly ministry had begun in the Holy Place.



We are, in these chapters, primarily with Christ’s work in the Holy Place, fulfilling the Pentecost “festival” by pouring out the early rain of the Holy Spirit.

That "early rain" was not just a one time experience -- that early rain is available for the church throughout all Christiandom to those who seek it and cherish it and follow the Spirit's leading in surrender and obedience.



Yes, we are expecting the "latter rain" --
But are we rejecting the "early rain" or are we seeking it?

The seals show a progressive rejection of the "early Rain" and descent into Babylon -- the counterfeit self exalting religion that clothes itself in the trimmings of Christianity.

Every horse that rides forth continues to ride until the end.
1. The gospel empowered by the holy spirit.
2. A false gospel empowered by the sword.
3. A false religion in which the gospel is scarce.
4. A deadly religion of deception and death.

The problem with many is they see these things as "one time events". No -- they are the story of Christianity, they cover the history of the Christian church.

We should NOT reject the established prophecies, to do so is rejecting the Testimonies. We simply realize that these things continue until the end. The forces of history both good and bad are still in force.

The Holy Spirit was given to the young church in powerful measure and we too need to be immersed-baptized in the Holy Spirit on a daily bases. Then we can ride with white horse, even though the other horses are also galloping throughout the society.

Are there more than one time of trouble?

Are the trumpets associated with the time of trouble? Which one?

What does "proclaiming the Sabbath more fully mean"? Some claim it means keeping it on another day than the 7th.

Well, I do believe there is a little time of trouble and the main time of trouble. These are basically separated by the close of probation.

I would also call the 1260 years a time of trouble in its own right.

I guess there could be more.

My study of Daniel and Revelation confirm that President Obama is the last American President identified in Bible prophecy.

As I understand it, President Trump will not be in office past 3/28/2017. Babylon was a religio-political power. I have understood that there would be 3 popes (Francis, Benedict & Satan as John-Paul II for a brief time) to fulfill the prophecy of religious Babylon. But I did not understand that the political Babylon would end with (Bush II, Obama, and Trump for a brief time).

I do not expect Christ to come by 28 March 2017 because the Time of Trouble has not escalated to that point yet.

And I have learned some marvelous things in my absence from this forum with it's too many doubting Thomases

Habakkuk says wait the vision will come at the appointed time. God is dividing those who go by faith in the sure word of prophecy from those who go by sight.

The word of God is sure. We know in part and we prophecy in part, but when that which is perfect is come then that which is in part will be done away!

Mark,
Here is a brief comment...
Revelation had chapters inserted after it was written

Chapter 6 is part of chapter 5.

The white horse: King Nebuchadnezzar, Babylon, President Reagan

Red horse: King Evil-Meridoch, Medo-Persia, Presiednt Bush I

Black horse: King Neglesser, Greece, President Clinton

sick horse: Kings Nabonidus & Belshazzar, Pagan & papal Rome, Presidents Bush I (death) & Obama (hell)

As Ancient Babylon had Daniel as it's third ruler...briefly, We have Donald John Trump.

Rev 6:10 " How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

Judgment Hours of dead and living have ended...how long to dispence judgment?

6:15 rich men= Laodiceans who think they need nothing

6:17 Great day has come

Keep it short sanints

A thought occurred to me-

If the judgement of both the living and the dead has ended, then logically there can be no more judging as we would have moved to the final phase of this world's history, which culminates in the dispensing of judgement.

Yet, people are still being born, and these new people "being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil" while judgement was proceeding could not have been included in the judgement. (Rom 9:11) Yet still, when judgement is finally closed, then it is truly and forever closed for all beings and for all eternity. Therefor, judgement must not have closed.


My expectation is that either the events prior to the close of judgement will be such as to prevent children from being conceived or God will simply prevent it as was done with Abimelech's household when Abraham was there.

If The judgment is like that, you conclusion would be correct.

I believe that the Judgment is more like an audit. Everyone has been audited (judged) and their accounts are up to date and open. And every account will remain open during the sealing time until Jesus declares "It is done" Then the books will close.

Compare it to taking tax deductions. You can give to charities until midnight, but after that your deductions cannot be posted that year. They have to go on the next year's return. Between now and the declaration (It is done), we are being sealed by the Holy Spirit in preparation for the time when Christ will finish His work in Heaven's Sanctuary.

And OBAMA is president?

Yeah. But, don't we still have to wait until March 28th or something like that?

I've been thinking about this today, and while I think I understand how you've presented it, it seems to me that the books still being open would equate with judgement having not actually ended. After all, if changes can still be made in our accounts, then Jesus would still be interceding in the temple in Heaven and therefor judging us. The sealing time began when the investigative judgement began, as Ellen White referred to it in present tense saying "just now in this sealing time" when describing the activities of Satan. ( Early Writings pg.44)

I agree that the books will close when the sealing is finished, but the declaration "It is done" is in the seventh plague. In Revelation 7:3 there is an angel saying to the four holding the winds of heavens "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." From this it appears that the time of trouble and the execution of judgement, the plagues, cannot precede the sealing. It then seems that by the time the declaration "It is done" is made in the seventh plague it must be some time after the sealing has already finished. Further, we see in the sixth plague a very sudden declaration "Behold, I come as a thief." At this point Jesus is announcing His return, and must have already ceased the intercessory ministry in the temple.

Josh, I'll have to prayerfully think on this

Couldn't I pick April 1 and say the same thing? Claiming doubting Thomases?

Could the sealing happen at different times for different groups? Such as, starting in the house and then moving out in the streets? Ezekiel, I believe. Such that all those professed will have their probation closed before those who never had the opportunity before.

(Nothing to do about March 22, though)

I think the seals are still future HC. I don't see a good match to your suggestions. For example the red horse I think indicates war. The black famine. The pale widespread death. We'll see.

Well I like where HC put Donald Trump in his 4 horsemans despite I disagree with his 4 horsemen association.

In terms of what Judgment is coming before or at Jesus 2nd coming .... isn't it obvious ? ... if you look back and take note at the Bible narratives and history of what has happened:

1- The Lord gave the law to Israel and a little stripe of land in Canaan to start establishing the Kingdom of God on earth with the Lord's laws.

2- The Bible states clearly that God establishes Kings on earth and gives power to whom He wish. However, this priviledge to rule on earth comes with responsibility and accountability. The Lord is the King of Kings... so He has the right to remove those that abuse this priviledge and the Lord can give it to others.

3- according to the laws of tribulation given in Lev 26 and Deut 28 that says [my summary] ... if you disobey my commandment I will take the kingdom away from you and give it to the nations around you and you will serve them for 7 times...and then after you repent ... I will remember what I promised your forefathers (==give you back the kingdom))

4- So of course, even Moses knew before the nation of Israel entered the promised land that they were going to apostasied. So He taught them a song prophecizing their eventual apostasy.

5- Thus according to Lev 26 & Deut 28, the Lord has put the nation of Israel (and of Judah) under captivity under the rulership of Gentiles Kings (this is the "time of the Gentiles" that Paul is talking about. It is the time the Lord has given to the Gentiles to rule on this earth after taking the rulership away from Israel.

6-So Judgment came on the Nation of Isarel and of Judah for 7 times ( 7 x 360 years - 2520 years of "times of the Gentiles").

7- So now we are at the END of the "times of the Gentiles"... meaning at the end of the Judgment time that was put on the nation of ISRAEL. During this 7 time period -- all the Beasts Kingdom that ruled during the "time of the Gentiles" : Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek, the Roman, the extension of the Roman Empire (the little horn), has all been judged the same way Israel were judged -- they failed to bring about the fruits of the Kingdom and the Kingdom was given to another [my paraphrase of Is 5, Mat 21 & Luk 12].

Today, we have Mystery[secret] Babylon who was given the rulership and power from the Lord for 100 years (because Judah broke off from the rulership of the Greeks for 100 years during the Maccabees war, so the Lord added this 100 years to the 7 times so that Israel serves the FULL 7 times captivity under the Beasts Kingdoms).

Remember, having this "wonderful priviledge" also means Mystery Babylon is under the same obligation to deliver the fruits of the Kingdom to the Lord ... THUS Mystery Babylon will be held accountable when the Kings of kings shall come and Mystery Babylon has no good fruits to return to the Lord. Thus the Lord will take away the kingdom from Mystery Babylon based on the same reasons and the same laws He took the kingdom away from Israel and Judah and all other Beast Kingdoms that it was given to before.

8. Now that we are at the END of the time of the Gentiles, who the Bible says is going to inherit the Kingdom next? Isn't the kingdom given to the "Saints of the Most High"? Which are the "restored" and "well-prepared" nation of Israel.

But before that happens ... a major repentance MUST occur to reverse the judgment as said in :

Lv 26:41 " And [that] I also have walked contrary unto them[Nation of Israel], and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: 42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Because we cannot repent on our own.....that's why the Lord will coordinate the-rain-on-all-flesh, at the timing of the END of the time of Gentiles. This rain will bring about this repentance at the end of the 7 times judgment that was put on Israel..... so that that judgment can be reversed and the "land" (the earth where the Kingdom of God is to be established) can be returned to the nation of Israel as promised to Abraham and Jacob to bless all the families of the nations.

This is the judgment narratives that I see in the Bible that applies today at the fall of Mystery Babylon. There's another judgment that comes after the Millennium; but that's a different type of judgment all together. Theirs many types of judgments that the Lord issues. Each judgments are based on the specific judgment said related on a specific law that was broken. So we need to go to the law that was broken to understand what type of judgment we are currently under or about to be released from.

Anyway aren't we way off-topic?

I'm not certain. I've started studying that, and at first I wanted to say it's all at once, but I'm considering things. It can at least be said that forgiveness of sin requires Jesus to be interceding in heaven, so when Jesus ends the investigative judgement it is the final and universal close of probation.

We ask John what he saw and heard in the vision at Patmos, and he answers: "And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon." {20MR 197.1}
There in His open hand lay the book, the roll of the history of God's providences, the prophetic history of nations and the church. Herein was contained the divine utterances, His authority, His commandments, His laws, the whole symbolic counsel of the Eternal, and the history of all ruling powers in the nations. In symbolic language was contained in that roll the influence of every nation, tongue, and people from the beginning of earth's history to its close. {20MR 197.2}
This roll was written within and without. John says: "I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon." The vision as presented to John made its impression upon his mind. The destiny of every nation was contained in that book. John was distressed at the utter inability of any human being or angelic intelligence to read the words, or even to look thereon. His soul was wrought up to such a point of agony and suspense that one of the strong angels had compassion on him, and laying his hand on him assuringly said, "Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." {20MR 197.3}

HC, yes, the book contains the history and destiny of every people, tongue and nation. The seals on the book are the final Providences of God at the end when the world is arrayed before the bar of God, the book opened and the final chapter lived out.

Mark,
I agree. As pointed out. the history of the world has been seen in the white horse Nebuchadnezzar, Babylon, and Reagan.

The pale horse was Nabonidus and Belshazzar, pagan and papal Rome, and Bush II and Obama.

But you do not see Trump there. When ancient Babylon fell it had a third ruler, Daniel for a brief season. We have trump until 28 March 2017 (if he makes it past 10 March 2017) and that is as though he never was (like Daniel the third ruler for an hour or 2).

Then comes the earthquake that accompanies Christ's Coming as does the falling of the stars, the sun and moon going dark, etc.

Food for thought

Yes, of course that makes sense. But doesn't mean the first one is at the same time as the last one. This can take time. Those who have the opportunity and reject it, their probation is closed. Consider today, someone rejects it, is killed in an accident. So with the living at the end time. Those who have never had the opportunity have a longer time of probation.

When do you say the equinox is this year?

*****STAFF EDIT *****

It is obvious that the sealing in "till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads" is spoken of later in "those who ... washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God". Both Hebrews (all the tribes of Israel) and Gentiles (all the tribes of the earth) are sealed in the same manner: being born again of water and the Spirit: "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3:5 cf Eph. 4:30, "do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption").

*****STAFF EDIT *****

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I learned something new today.

I have known for some time that The final 70 weeks (Daniel 9) allotted to America of the 490 weeks in the end time END on 10 March 2017, but I had not considered the significance of that. In the original 490 week/year prophecy the stoning of Stephen sealed the fate of the Jews as America's fate will be sealed on 10 March 2017.

Likewise I knew that as it was in the days of Noah correlates with our day. Noah went into the ark. 7 days later the rain began. 40 days later it stopped. President Trump was inaugurated 1/20/2017. 7 days later is 1/27/2017. 40 days later is 3/8/2017 (two days before the time allotted to US ends).

I really don't find your interpretation Biblically or historically sound. But, are you saying the time to wait for is 10 March 2017?

At last common ground.

I really don't find your interpretation Biblically or historically sound either.

I am saying that as the Stoning of Stephen marked the end of the 490 years allotted to the Jews, the endtime 490 weeks allotted to the SDA Church or America (still studying) will end on 10 March 2017.

The date is a big deal but I don't understand a specific event

I see. March 2017 is a big month to watch.

Did you just say that prophecy in Daniel is tied to the arbitrary choosing of America's inauguration day?

Or did you just say that we can take any prophetic time line and smack it down over top of any arbitrary beginning points of our own choosing?

That is, you don't like Trump so you can grab things here and there from scripture to "prove" your dislike for him? Why didn't you do the same when Obama started the presidency? Or when the people chose to reelect him?

By the way,
When do you say the equinox is this year?
Do you know?

Spring equinox year 2017 is approximately, March/20/10:28 am, Universal Time.

There is one significant prophecy being fulfilled here in this thread: Mrs. White prophesied of people time-setting (in vain). She commands us not to do it; but, in a manner like Pilate and Judas, the prophecy will nonetheless be fulfilled by some.

I would agree with that, but not sure His Child is willing to accept that. It conflicts with his prior date of the 29th.

See, by setting a date of the 10th, he can then give another date of the 29th. Just like in the last half of the 1800's where Ellen White had to tell people the 2300 days are over, there is no more time prophecy for it. But yet they kept setting dates. And as Green pointed out, they will do it again. Such as His Child is doing.

There are still future time prophecies not fulfilled, but we do not know the dates of them. Such as the 1000 years.

Our calendar is not the Babylonian calendar. Study the historical records to see what Babylonian kings did on NYD and their religious activities.

So if I Miss Babylonian NYD by a day or two, The events will be fulfilled before 1 April 2017. We are in the ball park unless at the airport

...

Of which time setting in EGW's writings are you referring?

Actually EGW wrote of the 2300 years ending. That date is set in 1844 and is firm But the time repeats as 2300 days in the endtime. And the final 70 weeks of Daniel 9 end on 10 March 2017. As it was in the days of Noah he went into the ark 7+40 days(two distinct periods) followed. Trump was inaugurated 1/20/2017. The 7 days end 1/27/2017. And the 40 days after that end 8 March 2017. That is 2 days before the final 70 weeks end on the eve of Purim.

Taking EGW out of context is making her say things that she does not say about time and time prophecy.

Ellen White wrote the following:

I understand Our calendar is not the Babylonian calendar. But I was asking about the equinox. You mentioned that, correct? You are not saying the equinox occurs for Babylon a different time than the U.S., are you? The equinox is a celestial occurrence. No matter what calendar system you are using. So what I'm asking you, today, for the U.S. common calendar system, when is the equinox?

Quite interesting that some people will do all they can to avoid such a simple question, avoiding or refusing for page after page of comments.

Thanks that make you go hmmmmmm.......


Maybe you can are willing to answer a question about what part does the equinox play in the Babylonian calendar's new year?


(Shall we take a poll, will His child avoid this question or answer it?)

Someone posted that the equinox is on 20 March this year. But it was later in the days of ancient Babylon. Like the shortest day of the year was 25 Dec back then and it is around 22 December now.

But as I understand it (and not as you are twisting my words). The Babylonians had a feast on the Spring Equinox and the king was dedicated and when all was said and done the first day of his reign in the new year was 29 March on our Gregorian Calendar. Thus by April 1 New Years Day had past.

So as I understand it President Trump should not be in office past 28 March 2017. But if I am using the wrong Calendar, he could be in office until 19 January 2018.

But as it was in the Days of Noah 8 March marks 47 days since Trump's inauguration.

The literal 490 weeks doubled allotted to America or Apostate Protestantism ends 10 March 2017.

And what would have been New Year's Day in Ancient Babylon is around 29 March on our calendar. So I expect President Obama to be in power by that day whether he is President or the power behind the presidency, I won't know until it happens.

IMHO God's word rightly divided is sure. The problem is not with God's word but with the earthen vessels that put others down who do not share their beliefs and who refuse to objectively look at things that they do not understand (they reject that which they have not studied before hearing the matter and they use infallibility as their standard rather than knowledge increasing while growing in grace).

His child wrote;

"So as I understand it President Trump should not be in office past 28 March 2017. But if I am using the wrong Calendar, he could be in office until 19 January 2018. "

That is the first time I have heard of this other calendar. Quite convenient.

HC, did you mean to say 70 weeks doubled rather than 490?

That is basically my understanding.

Remember that God's people are not infallible. God allows them to have a partial understanding that He matures as they follow what they know and knowledge is increased by God's grace at the time appointed.

Yes Brothers, I did write that. I later clarified (before 1/20/2017) that the Bible is probably using the Babylonian calendar in its reference to Babylon (which was a religious political state) in Revelation. By that Calendar the king ruled from New Year's Day to New Year's Day which was 29 March on our Gregorian calendar. So I expect President Trump to be out of office by 28 March 2017 or President Obama to be the power behind the presidency on 29 March 2017 if he is not actually President again. And I am expecting the war with Iran to most likely begin before 29 March.

And I noted that the 490 weeks of Daniel 9 allotted to Apostate Christendom and America ends 10 March 2017. THAT is all that I understand so far from Bible study. We should see things happening soon to show that I am on the right track.

8 March 2017 is Trump's 47th day in office. As it was in the Days of Noah, he was in the ark 7 days and it rained 40 days after that. So on his 47th day things looked great.

10 March 2017 is the end of the 490 weeks allotted to God's people in the endtime. As the Jews rejected Christ at the stoning of Stephen, apostate Christendom has rejected Jesus by setting aside the marriage covenant for an abominable facsimile.

29 March 2017 is Babylonian New Year's Day. So I will have got prophecy wrong if Obama is not President on that Day or the power behind the president (like Myanmar with a non elected woman telling the president what to do behind the scenes or when Putin became the Prime Minister and let his friend be president of Russia while Putin was the power behind the presidency)

But God's word identifies Obama as America's last President and he makes himself to wax great. He as the king of the North exalts himself and he returns to fight Iran which is the king of the South.

Christian regards
His child henry

The only man alive who tweeted 8 times during the 14 months before Pope Benedict retired that Benedict would not be pope after the Spring 2013. The only one who has called the 8 November 2016 election for Obama's third term. Can't happen? Will happen!

The 70 years in Daniel 9 turned out to be 490 years.

In the endtime they are 70 weeks 7 times or 490 weeks. And they double.

The decree that begins the sequencing:



The translators of Daniel supplemented much of what he wrote with their understanding of prophecy fulfilled. Like they knew that Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome were the 4 kingdoms that fulfilled Daniel 2 & 7 so when they could have used reign of the king in translating malkew they used kingdom. The translators set up the mindset that Daniel was about kingdoms. And that is as God ordained because the endtime meaning was sealed and closed until knowledge increased.

My word for word translation of Daniel 9:25 with no understanding whatsoever of Hebrew or Aramaic Simply using Strong's Concordance to work out a word by word rendition:



The decree was issued by Pope John-Paul II 31 May 1998. It was Dies Domini (the Lord’s Day). It links Sunday to peace in sections 1, 18, 26, 33, 44, 52, 67, & 73. Dies Domini was issued on May 31, 1998 (the 6th of Sivan on the Hebrew calendar).

“On the 6th Sivan…after the Exodus, G-d revealed Himself on Mount Sinai” and gave the Ten Commandments.
www.chabad.org/calendar/view/day_cdo/aid/282243/jewish/Torah-Given.htm

On the anniversary of God giving the 10 Commandments, the pope repeated the papacy's teaching that changed the Sabbath to Sunday.

The endtime fulfillment of Daniel 9:25—From the going forth of the command to apostatize (the 31 May 1998 decree), unto the anointing of the ruler shall be 69-weeks — this time of anguish shall come again (for the 69-week time of anguish to come again, the 69 weeks double to 138 weeks). From the command to apostatize issued on Sunday, 31 May 1998, the 138 weeks ended on Saturday, 20 January 2001. On the last day of the 138th week, the Protestant counterfeit prince of the covenant, George Walker Bush, was inaugurated (anointed) as President of the United States of America!
President Bush II was elected by a Protestant majority, to bring America back to its Protestant heritage and to restore the dignity of the presidency that had been marred by President Clinton’s Oval Office scandal. Bush II was anointed a political leader (President of the United States of America) with a Protestant (religious) mandate! The Bush II anointing fits the 138 week reading of Daniel 9:25, and it establishes 31 May 1998 as the beginning of the endtime 490 weeks:

maybe more later

(bold emphasis mine)

Daniel 9 gives us a seventy week prophecy, not a seventy year prophecy. There isn't a 490 year or 490 weeks prophecy in Daniel 9 either. There is a seventy week prophecy that ends up 490 days or years prophecy.

Did you mis-speak in these statements HC?

No it was not a misspeak. Thanks for asking.



What are the endtime meanings of Gabriel’s words? Upon thy holy city: holy is from a word that means both Sanctuary and to prepare. City is from a word meaning to awaken. Daniel 9:24 is saying: 70 weeks listed 7 times (490 weeks) are determined upon thy people and upon those preparing: to awaken everyone, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make an atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint those that are prepared.

seventy weeks are determined 7 times upon thy people

70…to awaken and prepare
70…to finish the transgression
70…to end sin and to seal up sinners
70…to make reconciliation for iniquity
70…to bring in everlasting righteousness
70…to seal the vision and prophecy
70…to anoint the prepared
70 weeks 7 times are 490 weeks



This is the first phase of the 70 week prophecy.

The 70 weeks of 7 days each to get 490 years that end at the stoning f Stephen.

In the end time, it is 70 weeks 7 times or 490 weeks.





Since Daniel 9 is in the third portion, and it was fulfilled in Christ’s Day (2000 years ago), there must be a more complete fulfillment of Daniel 9 coming.

I am speaking of 490 weeks doubled that begin 31 May 1998 and end on 11 March 2017. I did misspeak to say 10 March 2017. These 490 weeks doubled end on Sabbath 11 March 2017.

Purim begins Saturday, March 11, 2017
and ends /Sunday, March 12, 2017

When we use the day for a year principle, we have Biblical support for it. Do you have any Biblical support for interpreting 490 weeks as you did in this post?

The biblical support for the day for a year application is not a license to use it as a standard for interpreting all Bible prophecy. In Ezekiel that principle is linked to the destruction of the Temple. Thus it is applied correctly to prophecies that link to the restoration of the Temple.

The biblical support for the 70 weeks repreated 7 times is confirmed through Bible study.



When I understood the following, I had to study the prophecy and history to see if it were true





The mother church is the Roman Catholic Church because she is the mother of the Protestant churches that left her. The Roman Church’s decree teaching peace was Dies Domini (the Lord’s Day). It links Sunday to peace in sections 1, 18, 26, 33, 44, 52, 67, & 73. Dies Domini was issued on May 31, 1998 (the 6th of Sivan on the Hebrew calendar)

The endtime fulfillment of Daniel 9:25—From the going forth of the command to apostatize (the 31 May 1998 decree), unto the anointing of the ruler shall be 69-weeks — this time of anguish shall come again (for the 69-week time of anguish to come again, the 69 weeks double to 138 weeks). From the command to apostatize issued on Sunday, 31 May 1998, the 138 weeks ended on Saturday, 20 January 2001. On the last day of the 138th week, the Protestant counterfeit prince of the covenant, George Walker Bush, was inaugurated (anointed) as President of the United States of America!

The Bush II anointing fits the 138 week reading of Daniel 9:25, and it establishes 31 May 1998 as the beginning of the endtime 490 weeks:

None of the Presidents from Truman through Clinton were prophesied to be anointed the Prince of the Covenant. George (Walker) Bush II was anointed the Protestant Prince of America’s Constitution (the Aramaic word in the Bible translated as covenant is also translated constitution). What else is prophesied about President Bush II in the endtime?



After Bush II (messiah is the anointed one) was anointed 20 January 2001, he had an allotted time. After it ended, he failed to do his job—keep the United States safe.

Threescore has been translated as six multiplied by ten. According to Strong, in certain tenses the number is added to ten rather than being multiplied by it. In Daniel 9:26, when the number six is added to ten, the text reads sixteen. The following word in Daniel 9:26 is two, but it has also been translated as twice or double (cf Nehemiah 23:20 & 2 Kings 2:9; 6:10). The endtime reading is: after 16 weeks doubled (32 weeks from President Bush’s inauguration), the anointed Protestant prince, was cut off (he failed). Bush II returned from vacation on 1 September 2001, shortly after that, he failed to keep America safe; on 11 September 2001, a surprise attack changed America and the world forever.



After Bush II failed, the consequences of September 11 were self-evident. Daniel continues,

The week here brought to view is Constitution Week:



“And in the midst of the week he shall cause the Sacrifice and the Oblation to cease” (Daniel 9:27). Constitution Week was not like a biblical week from Sunday to Sabbath, the week that Bush II set apart was from Monday (9/17/01) to Sunday (9/23/01). Thus in the midst of Constitution Week, Thursday (9/20/01), the apostate Protestant prince of the covenant, President George Bush II, caused Christ’s Sacrifice and Oblation to cease while addressing Congress in a speech that was broadcast to the world:



What do Muslims believe? A Muslim man wrote

The belief that this Muslim shared is salvation by works! It is the belief that a man’s works will save him with no need of Christ. Jesus is the Sacrifice! His sacrifice is necessary on our behalf or we are doomed to die for our sins. The oblation is the necessity for each of us to receive Jesus as our personal Savior. Christ’s sacrifice is useless in our behalf unless we personally accept it as the Atonement for our sins.

When the anointed Protestant prince of the Covenant, declared that Muslim beliefs were good, Bush II voided Christ’s sacrifice! Bush II made void the oblation, the necessity of accepting Jesus as our personal Savior. He made all religions the same.

And my study continues to align events prophesied in each 70 week period to history seven times. And at the end of the 490 weeks, I show where they are repeated. The second 490 weeks end on 11 March 2017.

When the 490 years ended in Christ's day, the 70 times 7 time allotted to the Jews was ended and the gospel went to the gentiles.

The cup of Apostate Protestant America (gentiles) is full and the time allotted to her ends on 11 March 2017.

His Child,

Based on the following EGW quote that I posted earlier in this thread, there are no definite time in the message given of God since 1844, therefore, your time settings goes contrary to what she wrote.

From the beginning HC was not biblical by referring to 490 weeks. It became the "end of Biblical discussion" and entering into the "teachings of Men" realm. I'm sure no one of us wants to go there, including HC.

Mark was very kind seeking clarification .... Alchemy point was point on the Bible. I appreciate that Alchemy.

HC I agree with Alchemy that there's no 490 weeks. You are going way out of Biblical context. We have to stay within the Biblical context and revelation borders given by all scriptures.

As most of here knows, the 70 weeks Daniel prophesy is based on the Jubilee cycle of 7weeks x 7years having as a Sabbath every 7th and the 50th year [which was the 1st year of the next 7weeks x 7 years cycle].

So Daniel was saying 70weeks x 7years cycle -- which equates to 10 Jubilee cycles which equals to 490 years that ended at the time of Jesus 1st coming.

This 7weeks x 7 year Jubilee pattern was based on the 7weeks x 7 days pattern for the count down of 50 day-homers of Barley. So 50 days was counted from the wave sheaf day which was the first day of the 1st week of the 7 weeks Sabbath count down. The day after the 7 weeks x 7days count down was the 50th day. That day was known in the OT as "the feast of Weeks" (Deut 34:22; Deut 16:10; ...) aka "Pentecost" in Greek in the NT which means 50.

So in the law we have two application of 7 x 7.... the first in days with Pentecost, and the second in years with the Jubilee. However both of these are "types" of greater spiritual things to comes.

Then God applied these weeks-years with 70 x 7 .... which equal 10 Jubilee cycle to prophecy of Jesus 1st coming.

A good question to ask : Did this last week of the 70 weeks prophecy historically fell on a actual last week of Jubilee 49-years cycle starting from Adam? I refer to the calendar that starts from Adam as -- the Creation Jubilee Calendar. Or did God corrected some of the discrepencies that existed between the Jewish National Jubilee Calendar from God's Creation Jubilee Calendar with the 70 weeks prophesy? And if He did, did he fixed all or part of the discrepencies?

Let's do some math :

There's is 49 years in a Jubilee cycle - 38years = 11 years discrepencies. Is my math correct here?

But for those that wants to explore this question also ... here's a quote that can help understand that there's two calendars and the discrepencies of the two from an extract from Stephen Jones' book Daniel's Seventy Weeks. I appreciate Dr. Jones studies and his other book Secrets of Time where he expound more deeply about the different cycles found since Adam within God's Creation Jubilee Calendar. In the past 5+ years I have verified most of his data in his Secrets of Time book. I did find one error in one place of his calculation ...but the error was not about the 70 weeks, but somewhere else. But besides that single error... all the rest I wasn't able to find anything wrong with the dates, calculations, or falling outside of the Biblical scope.

Elle,

1) By all of the math from Stephen Jones it would appear you are simply doing your own date-setting whilst criticizing His Child for his.

2) Stephen Jones did not accurately do his math regarding the years of the patriarchs. It was Isaac, not Jacob, who was born in 2108. Where Mr. Jones made his mistake is most likely with the math required for the time of Abraham's birth. Terah was 130 years old when Abram was born, not 70 as most who do a superficial reading will conclude.

And it's very important to note that Ellen White learned this principle from Scripture! That's right. The Bible teaches that time will be no more after 1844.

Dear Daryl,

What did Sister white mean when she wrote "there would be no definite time in the message given of God since 1844.--2SM 73 (1885)"?

Definite time





Ellen White always used DEFINITE TIME to mean the definite day and hour of Christ's coming.

The quote that you cited LDE 36.1 has been removed from its setting and thus it is made to say something that EGW did not say.



The error is not with my use of prophetic time after 1844 but with the world's view of all prophetic time that has crept into the church.



You read it as no time proclamation at all as the world reads it but I read it as no time proclamation of the Day and Hour of Christ's Coming as I believe EGW meant it.



How do we know who is reading EGW correctly?

If Sister White meant that there would be no time prophecy after 1844, she would never cite a time prophecy after 1844.

She said that the 42 months prophecy was fulfilled before 1844.



Then she placed the 42 months in the future AFTER 1844.



To be sure that 19MR 282.1 stated that the 42 months would be repeated after 1844, I asked the keepers of White’s writings:

Since Ellen White wrote that she did not present any definite time after 1844 and that the 42 months time prophecy was fulfilled from 538-1798 before 1844 and she quoted the 42 months time prophecy as having a final fulfillment after 1844, she could not be saying that there is no time prophecy after 1844. She is saying that there is no prophecy declaring the definite time of Christ's Coming after 1844.

But some Adventists twist the Spirit of prophecy to explain away this repetition of the 42 months prophecy after 1844 to keep their misreading intact. But EGW also wrote



Again after 1844, she specifically wrote out by hand that Revelation 13:4-10 would take place in the future. In both instances she wrote out Revelation 13:5 that she had placed before 1844 and again in the future.





EGW did not say what tradition states that she said. And as long as tradition is allowed to over rule the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy writings those who are under its shadow will not rightly understand last day events.


emphasis mine

What The context of Revelation 10?

Oh really Alchemy? Please enlightened me-- where in the Bible do you find this or comes even close to suggest this by which I perceive this belief as total non-sense.

But if you can prove it to me that this is actually Biblical -- then am all ears. It would take another discussion(let's don't hi-jack this one) or bump up an discussion that address this question directly.

"Someone posted that the equinox is on 20 March this year",
but you don't really know nor agree, do you?

Henry, I wasn't asking what would the date be today if it was way back in the time you were talking about.

I asked a simple question. Why do you refuse to answer it?

The equinox does not change based upon which arbitrary calendar you are using. It is at a fixed time.

Consider sunset. It's at a fixed time. Depending upon where you're at, it could be called 6:30 or it could be called 5:30, but the sun sets at a certain time no matter what arbitrary numerical clock time you give it.

What I'm asking you is, given our calendar we use today, when is the equinox.

You are using OUR calendar today to create your Trump time, so use OUR calendar today, to say when the equinox is.

Are you with me, does that make sense to you?
I hope so.

Now that we (might) have that out of the way, back in the Babylonian time you're referring to, did their new year start at the equinox or a week later. Forget trying to map their calendar to ours. I'm asking relative to the equinox, which happens regardless of which calendar you are using.

If do not follow this, do you understand why people consider you are little off the off-side? And I'm sure you will quote something about no one listening to the variously separated Word, but I'm just saying there's some serious logical issues here.



Yep.

Figured that was coming. Now you're off the hook for almost a year. Then, of course, you can say March 2018.

And away we go. Always a deadline continually being set that's just not quite attainable.

Daryl and Alchemy, not sure I'm defending His Child, but concerning the quotes you used, aren't a couple of them regarding the 2300 days, that there is no more time prophecy regarding that specifically?

[putting on false prophet hat]
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

So here we have prophecy!
This shows that Trump and Obama are going to marry by the Ides of March.
We take 1 and 7, add it together and we get 8.
We note there are 7 heads and then an 8th one.
The Ides of March is the 15th.
Now we take 15, subtract 8, and we get 7. So now we try to come up with something that happened on the 7th to start the countdown.
So now we search the news tomorrow, because something is going to happen.
Presto!

Chapters and verses please

I read the posts in the in this thread with interest. I did not reply to some of them because their tone in my opinion was not of a serious nature. If you asked me a question and I failed to answer it please ask it again.

If All prophetic time ended in Scripture after 1844, why is there so much prophetic time in Revelation after the Scripture arrived at 1844?

Revelation 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Time prophecies ended when the voice of the seventh trumpet begins.

"This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which would precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {1MR99}


The seventh angel begins to sound in 1844.
That's when the heavenly temple with the ark of the covenant became a reality in the minds of Bible students.


Quoting scripture speaking of the seventh trumpet EGW writes:

" “The temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament.” [Revelation 11:19.] The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served “unto the example and shadow of heavenly things,” this apartment was opened only upon the great day of atonement, for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and the ark of his testament was seen, points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, in 1844, as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement. {GC88 433}

What do you mean by saying scripture arrived at 1844?
The scriptures became readily available a couple centuries before 1844 --

It was during those years prior to 1844 that prophetic interest surged.
The world was being prepared for the three angels messages to be proclaimed. Those messages began to sound around 1844.

The three angel's messages are the last great message to be sounded with loud voice to the world just before Christ returns.

" If every soldier of Christ had done his duty, if every watchman on the walls of Zion had given the trumpet a certain sound, the world might ere this have heard the message of warning. But the work is years behind. While men have slept, Satan has stolen a march upon us.--Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 29.

"Had the purpose of God been carried out by His people in giving to the world the message of mercy, Christ would, ere this, have come to the earth, and the saints would have received their welcome into the city of God.--Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 450.

"Everything in the universe calls upon those who know the truth to consecrate themselves unreservedly to the proclamation of the truth as it has been made known to them in the third angel's message. Testimonies, vol. 9, pp. 25, 26

This is actually a mis-quote or incomplete quote, found in {7BC 979.10}. Quoting the full paragraph in {7BC 979.10} we find: The Sabbath question will be the issue in the great conflict in which all the world will act a part. [Revelation 13:4-10 quoted.] This entire chapter is a revelation of what will surely take place [Revelation 13:11, 15-17 quoted] (MS 88, 1897). {7BC 979.10}

The same manuscript, {MS 88 1897} is quoted in {19MR} but you would have to back up 2 more paragraphs.

See the following: The Sabbath question will be the issue in the great conflict in which all the world will act a part. [Revelation 13:4-8, quoted.] {19MR 182.4}

"If any man have ears to hear, let him hear." This warning is given to every son and daughter of Adam; and it is repeated over and over again. {19MR 182.5}

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" [Revelation 13:10]. This entire chapter is a revelation of what will surely take place. [Revelation 13:11, 15-17, quoted.] {19MR 182.6}

But let's go to the source of these quotes:

The Sabbath question will be the issue in the great conflict in which all the world will act a part. “They worshiped the dragon which gave power to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemy; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them; and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” {Ms88-1897}

“If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.” This warning is given to every son and daughter of Adam; and it is repeated over and over again. {Ms88-1897}

“He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity; he killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and faith of the saints.” This entire chapter is a revelation of what will surely take place. “And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.... And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads; and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark or the number of the beast, or the number of his name.” {Ms88-1897}

The meaning seems clearer when you read the original source.