Mormons & Polygamy

We watched a very interesting and factual DVD last night, called, "Lifting the Veil of Polygamy" So many times I've heard, "Mormons don't believe in polygamy anymore..." Well, this DVD will help you to know what they REALLY believe. You can actually watch it for free, online....

I really don't know how anyone who isn't a Mormon, could vote for Mitt Romney after watching this DVD.

Do you all know of anyone who left Mormonism?

When I get a chance, I will first need to watch this before voting, which may need to wait until I am where I can watch it on high speed internet.

I understand...I think you'll find it very enlightening....

Tammy,

Thank you very much for the link. I just finished watching it, and found it indeed very enlightening. It helped me to finally understand the question of polygamy among the mormons. Thanks again.

Rosangela.

Why is polygamy a litmus test? It is a joke to hear Adventist rail against polygamy when the church officially promotes serial polygamy. Dissolution of a marriage by a human court does not dissolve the union.

True. It is the parallel polygamy that irks many, but God has higher standards.

At the same time I recall the passing of an Adventist minister and how it was his Mormon neighbor who organized the neighborhood to provide support for his widow, making sure meals were provided, etc., while the SDA church membership could scarcely be found.

Darius, have you watched the video? What striked me the most was the suffering this practice brought to the members of this church. The video was about sincere people who loved God and wished to serve Him, but who couldn't reconcile a loving God with polygamy.

I watched the entire video. The problem is not polygamy but the way it was practiced among Mormons. The film erred in suggesting that polygamy was developed by Smith. Most of the biblical patriarchs were polygamists. From an objective standpoint I was struck at the indoctrination of children that goes on in religious communities, including our own.

The problem is not polygamy? Is there a good way to practice polygamy, so that it brings hapinness to people?


In western countries in modern times yes, it was developed by Smith.


The problem is not indoctrination, but wrong indoctrination.

You did not really try to address the issues. The major problem with Mormon polygamy is the way in which teenage girls are preyed upon. That is not a polygamy issue. When you find an indoctrinator who believes his indoctrination is wrong let me know.

There are many major problems. The wives' feelings of anger for having to share their husbands with other women. Fathers' s exual abuse of children. The incapacity to reconcile polygamy as a divine order with God's love.


Well, do you consider that a Christian upbringing is a kind of indoctrination?

You are blinding your eyes to the context. These were young women who had no say in whether they would be in a polygamous relationship or not. Without accountability there is always abuse.

I asked a colleague of mine from Oman for her views on plural marriages, which is allowed in Islam. She praised the practice. One important difference from Joseph Smith's brand is the fact that the first wife must have a say as to who the other wives will be.

If my wife was looking around to find an additional husband, I don't think it would matter to me whether the other guy was a teenager or a geezer; there would be much bigger issues. My wife would probably feel the same way.

Listen to the ladies and you'll hear that their problem was not that the new wife was a teenager. Their problem was that the new wife existed.

If you have a wife, ask her if she would mind if you got yourself a teenager for a second wife. If you survive the reaction, ask her if she would feel better about it if your second wife was older and more mature.

I should not be surprised at these responses. People believe what they want to believe. I prefer to be driven by scholarship rather then sectarian biases.

Well played Darius, I agree. People believe what they want, and your perception IS your reality! Just as we are super devout fundamentalist's, so are they. We both started our chruch's here in America, we are both considered by many to be "cult's", and on the outskirt's of "normal" christianity. I don't think that is right, but I DO know that's how many people feel about us.

There are quite a few similarities, including the claims that the "mainline" church has been unfaithful to the old beliefs.

You are welcome, Rosangela! I am thinking on calling the company who makes the DVD and seeing if I were to buy a quantity, if they would give me a discount....I would like to put this DVD in Public Libraries for people to take home and watch....Perhaps a Mormon would take it home, and it would make them rethink their position...or give them the courage to leave the church.

It is hard for me to believe you have a "Ph.D." after your name, after reading your responses on this topic. I hope you don't have a wife, and if you do, I feel sorry for her.

If you want real scholarship, then you should be strongly for testing your hypothesis through research and weighing the evidence. Bring it up to your wife and find out if she would have a problem with polygamy. If she does, ask her if it would still be a problem if the other wives were older women, rather than teenagers. Let us know the findings from your research.

What does my hypothesis have to do with my wife?

And you are blinding your eyes to the other problems involved. This is just one of them.


The fact that she praised polygamy and that others may praise divorce doesn’t make these practices correct.

As the Wikipedia says, “even within societies which allow polygyny, the actual practice of polygyny occurs relatively rarely. ... To take on more than one wife often requires considerable resources: this may put polygamy beyond the means of the vast majority of people within those societies.”

What is said here is very interesting:

“The Quran immediately follows the verses giving Muslims the right to take four wives with a qualification which has been taken very seriously. Unless a man is confident that he can be scrupulously fair to all his wives, he must remain monogamous. Muslim law has built on this: a man must spend absolutely the same amount of time with each of his wives; besides treating each wife equally financially and legally, a man must not have the slightest preference for one but must esteem and love them all equally. It has been widely agreed in the Islamic world that mere human beings cannot fulfill this Quranic requirement: it is impossible to show such impartiality and as a result Muhammad's qualification, which he need not have made, means no Muslim should really have more than one wife. In countries where polygamy has been forbidden, the authorities have justified this innovation not on secular but on religious grounds. -- Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography Of The Prophet, p. 191.

You hypothesized that "the major problem with Mormon polygamy is the way in which teenage girls are preyed upon." I want to know if that is based on scholarship, or if you're just believing what you want to believe. Assuming that your approach is scholarly, you must have some kind of data, even anectodal data.

The video mentioned the problem of marrying off teenagers, but it didn't seem to be the "major" problem. So now, I'm looking for your data. My wife would have a problem regardless of the age of my mistress. If you got a middle-aged 2nd wife, do you think your wife will be fine with that?

Asygo, that kind of intellectual dishonest does not impress me. Your question was not a search for data. You are now trying to clean up your act.

Rosangela, I glad you posted the difference with the Mormon practice of polygamy. I wish you would incorporate it into your arguments. Forget the sectarianism.

And still we wait for your data. Or perhaps your hypothesis is not based on any data?

Apart from the fact that you are notoriously off-base, it is obvious you don't know the relationship between a hypothesis and data, or the difference between datum and data. This strawman you have created falls under its own weight.

Despite your lofty words, your lack of data shows the quality of the scholarship you profess. Some believe whatever they want to believe, lack of objective research notwithstanding. Perhaps someday you will realize that you do not measure up to the standards you set for others.

Regardless of my grammatical shortcomings, the fact remains that your claim about polygamy lacks factual support, and your profession of scholarship is hypocritical.

Wow boys, way to duke it out! That's the way to really show each other who's right. Sounds to me like the saying is true "your perception is your reality". You are both able to see the same video, and yet come away with such different understandings, hmmmmmmmm..........sound familiar?

And yet we all feel so lofty in our reproach of each other. How proper of you to look down on others, while puffing yourself up.



"Perhaps someday you will realize that you do not measure up to the standards you set for others"

If ever I heard someone judge another, it is with that statement. Now I know this is a HOT subject, and strong feelings are flowing, but please. We are all human, not one better than another, despite what you think. God will judge you, so maybe try not to judge each other.

Asygo, this was not about grammar. You have all the data you need. Just read your Bible.

Darius, you said, "The major problem with Mormon polygamy is the way in which teenage girls are preyed upon."

From what Bible verse did you draw that opinion? Please give your reference.

Here's what Darius said (to which you agreed, BTW): "I prefer to be driven by scholarship rather then sectarian biases."

I was checking the quality of Darius' scholarship, which he implied is superior to our "sectarian biases." So far, he has only shown that he is driven by his own biases, not data. So much for his so-called scholarship.


You have judged that I puff myself up as I look down on others. I took Darius' statement, and tested him to see if he met his own requirements. From that, you have determined my motives.

Are you being fair? Have you read my heart accurately?

There exists a bibleverse which speaks about mormon polygamy? Interesting...

Arnold, you are very funny.

That's true. But that statement of fact has no bearing on your assertion re: Mormon polygamy. That's still flailing in the wind, without any foundation other than you said so.

Asygo,

I did not judge you to be puffing, I'm stating in fact that's what you are doing. Read your own words. I've read your words, as that's all I'm able to read, not your heart, since I don't have the ability to do that. However, your words speak volumes about who you are, so choose them wisely.

And in case you hadn't noticed, life is not fair, that was ruined when the forbidden fruit was eaten!

But I'm sure you know that already, I don't even need to say that. Life is complex, as we are, as is our society and our religion. There's nothing fair, easy, or simple about this life. That's why we need to HURRY up and get to heaven. This world is ruined with our sin, so let's speed up the works on getting us out of here, can we?

I just want to Priase God everyday, in everything I do. I'm not perfect, a sinner just like everyone else, just trying to do the Lord's work. I'm doing all I can for God, just as He has asked.

Asygo,

Now when Darius said that bit about the problem with polygamy, he said what "the" problem was. How does that relate to his wife? In fact, what does that have to do with anything, othen than a problem he see's with polygamy. This statement is not about how HIS wife feels about polygamy, it's not about how YOUR wife would feel about it, or anything else even close to that. He merely stated, a problem, obviously one he see's as a problem.

Realistically (IMHO), there are MANY problems with the idea of polygamy. Just one of them being that young girls are preyed upon, before they have the ability to make a clear CHOICE on their own. There are a whole host of other problems, like jealousy, time spent with each, jealousy, money, jealousy, housing, jealousy, [censored] deviation, jealousy, etc.,etc.,etc.
If you hadn't noticed, (IMHO) most women have ISSUES with jealousy, especially when it comes to their mate.

It seems like we like to attack each other here, instead of attacking the issues. I'm just as guilty of it as the next person. In fact, I've not even watched the video. But I can see that some people are looking at, investigating, and talking about the issues brought up in this thread, and then there are others that only want to attack the responses of those who have given their 2cents worth.

I think it's fun to be scholarly, and look into things, to dig for information about something in question. I think it's fun to believe. I think it's fun to Priase God. I think it's fun to pray, as that's how I communicate with God.

No. He did not state "a" problem; he made an assertion as to "the major" problem. Here's the quote:
You said this in another thread:
That's exactly the standard I'm asking Darius to meet, especially in light of his claims to superior scholarship. Strangely, in this thread, you are defending his complete lack of data. Makes one wonder about your motivations.


Have you read what I wrote? That's exactly what I've been saying. And that's exactly what Darius has not been saying.

Yet, even when your idea opposes his, you defend his non-factual statements. Why is that?

More thought provoking than that is that while he likes to esteem himelf better than everyone else, especially with his so-called scholarship, and considers others' beliefs as just sectarian opinions, you have nothing but commendation for him. Why does he have immunity from the standards you place on the rest of us? You seem to have unspoken presuppositions that place Darius above reproach. That requires careful consideration.

Arnold, I deliberately waited to see how you would respond to fun2believe. Anyone who insists that "the major problem" is different from "a problem" cannot be reasoned with.

"A problem" with pancreatic cancer is loss of appetite; "the major problem" with pancreatic cancer is death. That's just one of countless examples. Anyone who insists that "a problem" is the same as "the major problem" is unreasonable. Obviously, I don't.

Darius, do you believe that "a problem" is the same as "the major problem"?

A major problem implies a minor problem, hence it is a problem. Here endeth the lesson.

Ah yes, "the major problem" would indeed mean there are other problems, otherwise, there could be no "major", without a "minor, or "minor's".

The reality as I see it, is that there are MANY problems with polygamy. It's just a matter of how many problems, and in what order of importance. And those are matters that you can only define for youself. Unless you are deemed the person to interpet the issue for others.

I think we can all agree that polygamy causes a whole host of problems. Maybe we should each pick out "a single" problem, the one thing that "irks" us the most, and then list them here. That way we would know what other's feel about the issue, and we can see the light though other's eyes.

I'll start.

"A" problem that I see with polygamy is that it only goes one way. Why can't women have many husbands. This policy seems at the very least, [censored].

Now it's your turn to list "A" problem that "YOU" find with polygamy. This way we talk about the issue, and stop arguing about the words we use to describe these issues.

May God bless each and every one of you as you seek the answer's to our collective problems.

Some cultures do practice polyandry. Neither polygamy nor polyandry can be a problem is all parties engage voluntarily. Where it is required, especially for salvation of one side there will be abuses.

I would agree with that. If either one is "required" for anything, "I" think there will be problems.

Well, had you started with that brilliant piece of logic, I would have immediately realized how much support you had for your assertions. Thank you for the lesson. I have learned.

A problem is commitment and competition. With so many spouses available, there will be competition with each other. And with so many to choose from, there will be a lack of commitment. Why fix a problem with ______ when ______ is just down the hall?

This problem will happen regardless of which spouse must compete. But it is less likely to happen with multiple husbands, since they are more likely to kill each other, leaving only one.

Yes, statistically, men commit more murders than women.

I agree, those are both problems. But you could still fix a problem with ___________ even though ____________ is down the hall waiting for you. It's not a guarantee that you'll just move on to the next one, but it is a greater likelyhood in my opinion.

And thanks for the great post, that's the stuff I was talking about. Let's really look at issues such as those, so we can objectively asses what's going on. I always enjoy reading your post's, even if we don't always agree. Thankfully we can agree to not agree on some issues, and just agree on others

The argument of lack of commitment assumes that the participants are not committed to the arrangement. We cannot discuss polygamy objectively with an anti-polygamy mentality.

Good point Darius. We can't say weather they are "committed" to each other or not, or even how committed they are. But I think it's fair to say that if they are in a relationship, that they would be committed. Now, surely we all know that just because you are in a relationship it does not guarantee that you are committed to it. You may be in it for other reasons, money, power, protection of self or children are just a few examples that I can think of.

I also agree that we have to be able to look at something from as many angles as possible, to be as objective as possible.

So, do we need to do more research on this issue? Should we have the input of someone who is actively involved in a poly relationship? Or is just one video enough for us to cast judgement on something?

Watch the video. Did the people who were in polygamous relationships speak of the level of commitment in the marriage? If so, was it a positive experience?

From what I saw, there was not a single positive description of the situation. On the contrary, there were feelings of betrayal. Commitment and betrayal don't go together.

If you can find a happy polygamous relationship, then bring them on. Let's do some research.

Assuming of course that the makers of the video were trying to film a representative sample of polygamous marriages and were not actively looking for unhappy examples of the same. Since we all know that the objective truth is what we will learn if it was said on TV, right? It could acctually turn out to be wise not to let one single tv-crew define truth on a matter that I would guess most of us lack any concrete experience on.

That would be a bad assumption. But it so happens that what they found matches what I have found in my own experience. If you or anyone else here can find one who is happy in a polygamous relationship, then have them sign up and enlighten us. Without that, then your objectivity is as flawed as that TV crew's.

Would you mind telling us how you conducted your research and what the resulting data was?

Sure. I've known a few men who attempted to have more than one mate. It always resulted in unhappy, and often raging mad, women.

I've seen women's reactions at even the hint that their man had wandering eyes. Not good for the man.

The video in the OP corroborated those findings.

The Bible lists "one wife" as a criterion to be an elder or deacon.

Anybody care to present pro-polygamy research?

Is that what you call valid research data? No wonder.