A Woman Now Rides the Beast

Here’s a thought that I’m mulling over, comparing with scripture: Revelation 17 has timing elements to help us identify when and how Babylon comes to power and begins her ride of the Beast:

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

So what I'm looking for is an initial political coalition of five powers who at about this time that the woman takes the reigns of the beast these five make an alliance with a sixth and then a seventh. Soon after the number reaches seven on the political side the woman is unseated by the beast and a coalition of 10 kings. Ellen White says the 10 kings are Protestantism.

what do you do when it's not the woman but the beast with the seven heads?

The beast of Revelation 17

Three parts:

1. The scarlet colored beast full of names of blasphemy, which is, is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition. And the people will "wonder" (be amazed by) this beast when he ascends. He is the "eighth" or sum total of all the heads.

3. Ten horns which are seven kings that receive their kingdom for one hour with the beast. They give their power to the beast but hate the woman.

Then there is also the woman -- Babylon -- a great city.
Reigning over the kings of the earth.
Fornicates with the kings of the earth.
Makes them drunk with the wine of her fornication
Sells merchandize to them and is very rich
In her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

It's the last sentence that suggest a huge time frame.

Regarding the eighth being the sum of the seven, the language points to a succession because the seventh for example is said to only last a short space followed by the eighth being the last of the seven. The eighth is the final manifestation of the anti-christ and it may begin with a human vice regent but it will end with Lucifer in the guise of an angel of light impersonating Christ. This is why the eighth is not of the seven - it is purely demonic at the end with no human element.

Do you mean "Ten horns which are ten kings" rather than "seven kings"?

[
The context points to an end time application of the entire picture which starts with the instruction: "Come hither, I will show thee the judgment of the great whore". Then the prophet is lead into the wilderness where he sees her judgement. It begins when the mortal wound is healed and she mounts the beast and ends with her being unseated by the 10 kings. During this period the three angel's messages are given in latter rain power because judgment hour has come, not only for the great whore but also for humanity. Multitudes will be in the valley of decision during the "hour of His judgment". Shortly after the beast is also thrown along with the false prophet into the lake of fire. But if you look carefully it's evident that the great whore comes to her end before both the beast and the false prophet meet theirs.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth . . .

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

. . . Is atheism the correct interpretation of bottomless pit? If this is the case, could it be connected to the sabbath controversy and the rapidly spreading belief among Protestant churches that theistic (or outright Darwinian) evolution is true?

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

Hopefully, this is on topic. I have heard both of these views expounded, what are your opinions? Is Armageddon a physical, or a spiritual battle? Does apostate Protestantism engage in physical war with the Lamb via faithful Christian surrogates, or will it be a battle of biblical doctrine and pseudo-biblical doctrine vying for the soul of humanity? Perhaps, Armageddon is a combination of both?

The beast of Revelation 17

Three parts:

1. The scarlet colored beast full of names of blasphemy, which is, is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition. And the people will "wonder" (be amazed by) this beast when he ascends. He is the "eighth" or sum total of all the heads.

2. The seven heads on the beast which are seven mountains/seven kings. The woman sits on these.

3. Ten horns which are seven kings that receive their kingdom for one hour with the beast. They give their power to the beast but hate the woman.


Then there is also the woman -- Babylon -- a great city.
Reigning over the kings of the earth.
Fornicates with the kings of the earth.
Makes them drunk with the wine of her fornication
Sells merchandize to them and is very rich
In her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.



It's the last sentence that suggest a huge time frame.
The language suggest that the woman and the beast on which she sits as queen are world embracing symbols that cover the history of the reign of sin. Babylon is held responsible for the persecution and martyrdom of prophets, saints and all that were slain upon the earth.
This takes us back all the way to the time of Nimrod who created the beginning of Babylon with his wife. Babylon traces it's history as the counterfeit of the true plan of salvation all through history.

One question that has puzzled me.

The beast of Revelation 17 comes up out of the bottomless pit.

None of the beastly critters of Rev. 12-13 come up from the bottomless pit. The Leopard like beast arises from the sea.
The two horned beast arises out of the earth.

However, if you go back to Revelation 11, you will find another beast coming up out of the bottomless pit.



Rev. 11:7 And when they (the two witnesses) shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Who is this beast, and is it connected with the Rev. 17 beast?

Actually, "bottomless pit" or "abyssos" is mentioned SEVEN times in Revelation.


Revelation:
9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
9:11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.

11:3 my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up,

Kland wrote: Can it not fit the text if satan is considered the beast of Rev 11, 12, 17, 20?

++

Satan is the dragon as stated in Rev. 12:9

"the dragon gave power unto the beast" Rev. 13:4

The two horned beast receives the same power and speaks like the dragon.

Thus, I don't think these beasts are satan, but they represent human powers which are empowered by Satan, and fulfill his agenda.
They are "in his image"

Interesting contrast --

God seeks to restore us into HIS image
while
the opposition takes on the image of the dragon.

Can it not fit the text if satan is considered the beast of Rev 11, 12, 17, 20?

"A power from beneath is working to bring about the last great scenes in the drama,--Satan coming as Christ, and working with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in those who are binding themselves together in secret societies. Testimonies, vol. 8, pp. 27, 28. {

"Those who choose to unite with these secret societies are paying homage to idol... Behind their apparent advantages are concealed satanic agencies....They are Satan's traps, his net to entangle souls. {2SM 131.3}

" As we near the close of time, there will be greater and still greater external parade of heathen power; heathen deities will manifest their signal power...All need wisdom carefully to search out the mystery of iniquity that figures so largely in the winding up of this earth's history. God's presentation of the detestable works of the inhabitants of the ruling powers of the world who bind themselves into secret societies and confederacies, not honoring the law of God,

One more thought. Ellen White is clear that the 10 horns or kings who give their power to the beast, the eighth head, are the Protestant denominations. So horns and kings can also represent churches. If that is the case with the ten horns, then the same can be applied to the heads since they also could be political and religious. If we were to add up the membership of the ten leading Protestant denominations in America we'd have an idea of the power base of the eighth head.

Mark Shipowick please give a resource for this comment:

"One more thought. Ellen White is clear that the 10 horns or kings who give their power to the beast, the eighth head, are the Protestant denominations."

Thank you

Protestantism Unites with the Papacy, June 28

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. Revelation 17:12, 13. Mar 187.1
As we approach the last crisis, it is of vital moment that harmony and unity exist among the Lord's instrumentalities. The world is filled with storm and war and variance. Yet under one head—the papal power—the people will unite to oppose God in the person of His witnesses. Mar 187.2
What is it that gives its kingdom to this power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a power from beneath." Mar 187.3

Every nation will be involved. Of this time John the Revelator declares: [Revelation 18:3-7, quoted]. {19MR 242.3}
"These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful" [Revelation 17:13, 14]. {19MR 242.4}
"These have one mind." There will be a universal bond of union, one great harmony, a confederacy of Satan's forces. "And shall give their power and strength unto the beast." Thus is manifested the same arbitrary, oppressive power against religious liberty, freedom to worship God according to the dictates of conscience, as was manifested by the papacy, when in the past it persecuted those who dared to refuse to conform with the religious rites and ceremonies of Romanism. {19MR 242.5}
In the warfare to be waged in the last days there will be united, in opposition to God's people, all the corrupt powers that have apostatized from allegiance to the law of Jehovah.

n the French Revolution from 1789-1793 overthrew the Roman Church in France, killed or exiled its monarchs, and established what they called a Republic. At the same time a Republican movement was gaining strength in Italy. When the republican agent, Hugo Basseville, was murdered in the streets of Rome in January 1793, the French government held the pope complicit in the murder. Alarmed, the pope joined a European coalition in 1795, sending 12,000 troops to fight against France and to bring it back under papal control.

In 1796 France sent Napoleon against Austria and Italy, easily defeating them. When Pope Pius VI refused to renounce political power, he took the aged pope captive and expelled the entire Roman curia. The pope later died in a French prison in Valence at the age of 82. As his health failed, Napoleon issued an order that no successor should be named. Even so, Napoleon allowed Pope Pius VII to be elected in Venice on March 14, 1800. His relationship with Napoleon was often stormy, and in fact, Napoleon imprisoned him as well from 1809-1813.

But by this time, Napoleon’s days were numbered, for he was greatly weakened by his disastrous invasion of Russia in 1812. He was forced to abdicate in 1814. The nations of Europe then met at the Congress of Vienna to “redraw the map of Europe” in what came to be known as the Holy Alliance (1815).

The “fatal wound” inflicted upon the first beast after 1,260 years occurred generally with the two popes being taken captive. Perhaps more important, however, was the captivity of the first pope, as there was no pope at all for a short time. But yet the Church came back to life, and the second beast gave its authority to the first, as Revelation 13:12 indicates. The financial powers made an alliance with the Roman church and, in fact, the Rothschild banks became the church’s money manager.

The Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. X, tells us,

“It is a somewhat curious sequel to the attempt to set up a Catholic competitor to the Rothschilds that at the present time the latter are the guardians of the papal treasure.”

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12909-rothschild

In other words, the Rothschilds became the financial managers of Vatican’s wealth, holding the key to Rome’s money. When this arrangement began is not stated, but the article above implies that a Catholic bank, Union Générale, had been set up in 1876 as to compete with the Jewish Rothschild banks, hoping the Vatican would entrust them with their money. Why did the Roman church continue to utilize a Jewish bank rather than a Catholic bank?

One has to wonder about this curious arrangement. Were the Rothschilds providing the church a service? Or were they using their guardianship as leverage to keep control of the church?

he Illuminati was founded on May 1, 1776 by a Jesuit-trained professor of canon law named Adam Weishaupt. He had lost his job at Ingolstadt University when the Jesuits were dissolved in 1773. A group of Jewish bankers thought he might be useful to their cause against the Roman church, so they financed his Illuminati Order. He became a Freemason shortly afterward in 1777 in order to try to use it for his own purposes. He had no success until 1780, when Freiherr von Knigge joined his cause.

On July 16, 1782, at the Congress of Willhelmsbad, where representatives of all the secret societies were represented, “the alliance between Illuminism and Freemasonry was finally sealed” (Nesta Webster, World Revolution, p. 31). However, in 1785 an Illuminati messenger named Lanze was struck down by lightning, and instructions from the Order were found sown into the lining of his coat. Weishaupt’s plans were discovered, and the houses of Swack and Bassus were raided. Authorities seized incriminating evidence, and these documents were made public under the name of The Original Writings of the Order of the Illuminati (1787).

The Order was officially suppressed and was forced to go underground. The French Revolution continued as planned a few years later, but largely without Weishaupt’s direct leadership. Having been exposed, he was watched carefully. His sponsors found other leaders to carry out the plan.

Mendelssohn and Rothschild

There are many articles and some books which claim that the Rothschilds financed Weishaupt in launching the Illuminati in 1776. However, the original founder of the House of Rothschild, Mayer Amschel Bauer, did not come into any serious wealth until 1796-1798, some years after the French Revolution had concluded. Although he and his sons played a large role in the time of the earth beast in the next two centuries, it was not Rothschild money or planning which launched the Illuminati at its start.

According to Pawns in the Game, written by the Canadian Naval Commander William Guy Carr, Weishaupt was funded by Moses Mendelssohn, a very wealthy Jewish banker in his acquaintance. There seems to be no doubt the Jewish bankers would have benefited from the overthrow of the Church in France—as well as giving them financial control over Freemasonry in Europe. However, they usually contented themselves with remaining in the background and simply helping the enemies of their great rival power, the Roman Church.

First of all, Carr tells us that Mayer Amschel Bauer, who later took the surname Rothschild, was a poor man at first. On page 25 he says,

“A few years after his father’s death, Amschel Mayer Bauer was employed by the Oppenheimer Bank as a clerk.”

This tells us that the Rothschild family did not inherit any wealth from previous generations, for if they had inherited wealth, Mayer would have been hiring others to work in a bank of his own. Instead, we find him a mere bank clerk working for another wealthy Jewish banking family. The Oppenheimers were already wealthy bankers, along with Moses Mendelssohn and others.

In the two biographical volumes, The House of Rothschild, by Niall Ferguson, he says the Rothschilds did not have much wealth in the 1770’s. Their wealth came primarily after Mayer Amschel developed a relationship with Prince William IX of Landgrave, after he came to the throne in 1785—nine years after the Illuminati was founded (1776). Niall Ferguson writes in Vol. I, page 61,

“The truth was that, despite his efforts to gain a foothold at William’s court while he was still residing in Hanau, Mayer Amschel was still to all intents and purposes a nobody when the new Landgrave moved north to Kassel on his father’s death in 1785.”

We also learn that Mayer Amschel’s financial rise came after he met Karl Friedrich Buderus, who had moved to Kassel in 1792. Buderus had gotten his start by tutoring William’s illegitimate children. In Vol. 1, page 62 we read,

“The first sign of tacit co-operation between Buderus and Rothschild came in 1794 when the former explicitly recommended that Mayer Amschel be allowed to join five established firms in bidding for the sale of 15,000 of English bills. Evidently, his recommendation was ignored, but Buderus tried again in 1796 and this time succeeded.”

Hence, Rothschild was unable to break into the banking world until 1796. Prior to that he was a middle-class coin dealer. Ferguson again says on page 45,

“However, the speed with which Mayer Amschel’s wealth grew in the 1790s marked a real break with his earlier business activity. At the beginning of the 1790s Mayer Amschel Rothschild was no more than a prosperous antique-dealer. By 1797 he was one of the richest Jews in Frankfurt, and a central part of his business was unmistakably banking. The evidence for this breakthrough is unequivocal. In 1795 the official figure for Mayer Amschel’s taxable wealth was doubled to 4,000 gulden; a year later he was moved into the top tax bracket, with property worth more than 15,000 gulden; and in the same year he was listed as the tenth richest man in the Judengasse with taxable wealth of over 60,000 gulden. Thanks largely to Mayer Amschel, the Rothschilds had become one of the eleven richest families in the Judengasse by 1800.”

Mayer Amschel had been a moderately successful antique coin dealer and small-time stock broker, but had nowhere near the wealth of his contemporary Jewish bankers in the 1770’s. And so, while the Rothschilds ultimately rose to positions of world power, it is very unlikely that Mayer Amschel Bauer, the Rothschild patriarch, played any significant role in the French Revolution of 1789. And he had no money to finance Adam Weishaupt and his Illuminati in 1776. His role came later after rising in wealth that gave him respect among his wealthy Jewish peers.

Besides Moses Mendelssohn, Weishaupt associated with other Jewish bankers. Nesta Webster says on page 228 of her book, Secret Societies and Subversive Movements,

“It has frequently been suggested that his [Weishaupt’s] real inspirers were Jews, and the Jewish writer Bernard Lazare definitely states that ‘there were Jews, Cabalistic Jews, around Weishaupt.’ A writer in La Vieille France went so far as to designate these Jews as Moses Mendelssohn, Wessely, and the bankers Itzig, Friedlander, and Meyer. But no documentary evidence has ever been produced in support of these statements.”

Webster does not even list Rothschild among the known associates of Weishaupt. She writes on page 230,

“Whether, then Weishaupt was directly inspired by Mendelssohn or any other Jew must remain for the present an open question. But the Jewish connexions of certain other Illuminati cannot be disputed. The most important of these was Mirabeau, who arrived in Berlin just after the death of Mendelssohn and was welcomed by his disciples in the Jewish salon of Henrietta Herz. It was these Jews, ‘ardent supporters of the French Revolution’ at its outset, who prevailed on Mirabeau to write his great apology for their race under the form of a panegyric of Mendelssohn.”

The Jewish Encyclopedia’s article on Freemasonry says, “Jews have been most conspicuous in connexion with Freemasonry in France since the Revolution.” No doubt this influence was purchased by financial support. Nor was this influence only monetary. In the late 1700’s the basic three degrees of Freemasonry was expanded to 33 degrees, culminating (in the 32nd degree) with teachings directly from the Jewish Cabala. Anyone who has studied Albert Pike’s Morals and Dogma can see plainly that the upper degrees of the Scottish Rite (from the 26th to the 32nd degree) teach directly out of the Cabbala, the mystical Jewish writings.

In other words, the plain goal of Masonry is to Judaize non-Jews in the upper degrees. This, in turn, was designed to prepare them for the more “enlightened” (i.e., Satanic) degrees in more secretive organizations that stood above the 33rd degree of Freemasonry.

Weishaupt’s Successors

Perhaps the most revealing evidence of Weishaupt’s Jesuit connection is found in the same article in The Catholic Encyclopedia. There we learn that this same man who continually expressed utter contempt and hatred for the Church, died in 1830 as a reconciled Roman Catholic!! It reads:

“As early as 16 February 1785, Weishaupt had fled from Ingolstadt, and in 1787 he settled at Gotha. . . After 1787 he renounced all active connexion with secret societies, and again drew near to the Church, displaying remarkable zeal in the building of the Catholic church at Gotha. He died on 18 November 1830, ‘reconciled with the Catholic Church, which as a youthful professor, he had doomed to death and destruction’—as the chronicle of the Catholic parish in Gotha relates.”

The article above is unclear as to when Weishaupt reconciled with the church. It just says that this happened “after 1787,” shortly after the Illuminati had been exposed and officially suppressed. His reconciliation with the Roman church, which he had professed to hate for so many years, is difficult to believe, unless it was part of the overall “holy alliance” between the Masonic kings and the popes. In other words, the alliance made room for Freemasons within Catholicism itself, though officially they remained at odds, and this probably gave Weishaupt opportunity to do his revolutionary work in a safer environment within the Roman church.

When the Illuminati Order was suppressed officially in 1785, Weishaupt’s exposure ended his primary usefulness. Most Freemasons left the Illuminati. Weishaupt’s mission suffered a huge setback. Nonetheless, the French Revolution continued as planned, showing that the plot to overthrow France was bigger than Weishaupt. In fact, it was carried out, not under the direction of Weishaupt’s Illuminati, but under the watchful eye of the Masonic monarchs, who led the lodges in each of their countries.

Even so, The Illuminati organization continued covertly under new names. We do not know if Weishaupt himself was a Satanist, but certainly his successors were. Weishaupt remained as the secret head of the Illuminati until his death in 1830. In 1834 he was succeeded by Giusseppe Mazzini of Italy (1805-1872), a 33rd degree Mason. Mazzini’s Luciferian protégé in America, Albert Pike, was fast-tracked in 1859 to become the head of Scottish Rite Freemasonry that was based in Charleston, SC.

Albert Pike set up five strategic Councils around the world: Washington D.C., Montevideo (South America), Napes (Italy), Calcutta (India), and Mauritius (Africa). He conspired with Mazzini, Lord Henry Palmerston of England (1784-1865, 33rd degree Mason), and Otto von Bismarck from Germany (1815-1898, 33rd degree Mason).

When Mazzini died in 1872, Pike appointed Adriano Lemmi, a banker from Florence, Italy to head up their subversive European activities until his death in 1896. The fact that Pike was able to appoint Lemmi shows that Pike himself was, by this time, the (hired) head of the Illuminati organization as a whole. It had not disappeared when Weishaupt was exposed, nor did Weishaupt cease his secret activities. He simply found opportunity to work covertly within the Roman church to give the appearance of piety and philanthropy (in building a church). One might also ask where he accumulated enough money to finance building a church. It seems probable that he was receiving regular dues from members of a secret organization.

Weishaupt’s reconciliation with the church was part of a general plan for Freemasons to remain as Catholics and eventually to rise to leadership positions. Rather than keep the two sides distinct, we find thereafter many Catholic Freemasons, and by the twentieth century we even see Freemason popes leading the church. This is the ultimate result of the Holy Alliance.

In our (SDA) view God breaks this pattern and somehow uses another body to put back the previous BEAST in power. Then the dominion hasn't changed hands. We are basically saying the first BEAST of Revelation still rules.

There are more than one beast and a beast of beasts.

It appeared to me you group all the beasts together. There are beasts in Daniel, and there are beasts in Revelation 12, 13, 17....
They aren't all the same.

4. Protestantism did not cause the fatal wound but the Illuminati : History doesn't show that protestanism inflicted the fatal wound.

We know that Napoleon was a freemasson; however Massonry was already infiltrated by the Illuminati created by Weishaupt who was at the time a Jesuit which was founded by Loloya, who was Jewish and part of a secret Zionist sect.

Who's the woman that rides the sea BEAST(=the RCC) in Rev 17?

My understanding bytaking many unfulfilled prophecies into account and current events since the 1800 that it is this Zionist movement and spirit who is a false bride,a harlot who always believed that they retained their "chosen" priviledges despite of all their lawlessness deeds and their rejection of Jesus who was given the scepter at his 1st coming. They were the evil fig tree in Jeremiah 24. Jesus prophecied that this evil fig tree at the cursing of the fig tree (Mat 21) that represented those who rejects Christ would bear once again some leàves later but not any fruits.

And this scenario is taking place since 1948 with the Balfour declaration after WWII when the Rothchild schemed for England to give a "home land" for the Jews. This piece of the Zionist movement led by the Elites of that Jewish off-shoot deranged sect who is desperately trying to establish their one world order via wars and force. But as Jesus told them in the parable of the vineyard in Mat 20 that the kingdom will be taken away from them and given to someone else.

This is we're we stand...not only the destruction of the 1st BEAST (=RCC) but also the destruction of the earthly(carnal) Jerusalem that will expose the whore -- the false bride -- who are these Zionist.

Just a important note... Most Jews are NOT Zionist.

These Zionist Jews are not Jews and are from the synagogue of Satan Rev 2:9;3:9 and still offer child sacrifices today to Satan.

A strong case can be made that the ten horns represent ten nations (or an inclusive all nations) in which the people once embraced the protestant gospel truth, but have since slide back and are willing to support the papacy with civil power.
. . .

What is it that gives its kingdom to this power [Rome]? Protestantism, a power which while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb, and to be allied to heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a power from beneath. {Lt232-1899.22}

Sorry for my delay but thanks to Prodigal for answering above. That is one of the ones. I think there are one or two others.

not clear at all from that selection. Am I missing the smoking gun?

It is obvious that the woman in Rev 17 cannot be riding herself.
(That is significant if you think about it.)

The beast in Revelation 17 cannot be the woman that is riding it.

It is clearly stated in Rev 17:10 "And there are seven kings:"

Where is the rationale to take a clear statement like that and expand it to mean more than what it says?

Henry, yesterday evening I had another look at this after reading Dedication's comment and I've modified my view. I think hers is the better understanding. I summarized my thoughts at the bottom of page four about two hours before your post so maybe you missed it. Briefly, where the quote says Protestantism gives its power to the beast it is referring to the political power of Protestant nations that will align themselves with the beast. The 10 horns are therefore more likely 10 Protestant nations under the control of Protestant churches.

We know that she is referring to the ten horns because although she doesn't reference them directly, she quotes the exact scripture phrases that refer to the horns and immediately above her comment she quotes this scripture in full as well. There are one or two other quotes that affirm this one if I remember right.

As the second appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ draws near, satanic agencies are moved from beneath. Satan will not only appear as a human being, but he will personate Jesus Christ; and the world who has rejected the truth will receive him as the Lord of lords and King of kings. He will exercise his power, and work upon the human imagination. He will corrupt both the minds and the bodies of men, and will work through the children of disobedience, fascinating and charming, as does a serpent.{RH, April 14, 1896 par. 6}

Where we disagree is the identity of who is the 2nd BEAST from the earth.

“After the flash, she saw a brilliant orange orb, the color of the sun as it sets in the ocean, erupt in the sky - and she hit the ground. When she looked up, the buildings around her and much of the city were on fire… West was stunned by the hellish ruins of Hiroshima.” http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news...rticle-1.580801

President Donald Trump said "They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen." http://www.kxlf.com/story/36093131/president-trump-warns-north-korea-will-be-met-with-fire-and-fury

Then let Revelation 13:13 identify him. " he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

Solomon says there is nothing new under the sun.

What nation rained fire down from the sky?



What nation is threatening to do it again?

History confirms Bible prophecy! The second beast links to the USA.

In Rev 17 theirs a whore that rides the first BEAST of the sea.

There are more than one beast and a beast of beasts.

Mark,

Thank you for attempting to give an answer. But sorry to say... my questions were not answered. No evidence has been presented that would hold up under close examination to make the case for having the 8 heads being Protestant churches as it is supposed that EGW taught. If she rally taught that, she would have nailed it down.

Elle, this is where:
Not the first beast. (well, depending upon which you call the first).

It's described the same as the one in Rev 12.
Re 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Re 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
That's where I'm saying you're grouping them together. I did use, incorrectly, "All", but that wasn't my first comment. It was,

I'm didn't follow where Mark mentioned anything about 8 heads.

“Babylon the great”…another symbol of the beast. (SSII 72.1 )

“the mother of harlots.” By her daughters must be symbolized churches that cling to her doctrines and traditions, and follow her example of sacrificing the truth and the approval of God, in order to form an unlawful alliance with the world… The people of God are called upon to come out of Babylon. According to this scripture, many of God’s people must still be in Babylon. And in what religious bodies are the greater part of the followers of Christ now to be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the Protestant faith. (GC 382.3)

The mother was not the daughters, but separate and distinct from them. She has had her day, and it is past, and her daughters, the Protestant sects, were the next to come on the stage and act out the same mind that the mother had when she persecuted the saints… As the mother has been declining in power, the daughters had been growing, and soon they will exercise the power once exercised by the mother. (SpM 1.4)

Re 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Re 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

The papal beast’s name is Babylon; its authority/ office is Mother of Harlots and Abominations; and its jurisdiction is the earth, which it received from Satan. An official seal has these three distinct characteristics: Name, office, and territory or jurisdiction. The woman on the papal beast has the beast’s seal on her forehead (cf Revelation 17:5).

The beast in revelation 17 is the Babylon the great/papacy. The woman riding the papacy depicts the Protestants denominations.

When Revelation 17 meets its complete fulfillment, the Protestant churches (the woman on the beast) will accept the Mark of the beast. This is evident by the name on the woman's forehead.

Elle that was a great observation. I spent an hour answering it and hit a wrong key that deleted it all. I couldn't find an undo key to retrieve it until I left the page. Too Late. Too Late.

I'll come back to this post with a thus saith the LORD in another session.

First thing to note John saw" a great sign appear in heaven" v.1
This is the constellation of Virgo that every year it appears from Aug 23 to Sept 22. But it is rarely passing by in conjunction of the moon under her feet.
.........

Uh... Count me out of that conversation!

Elle, this is where:
Not the first beast. (well, depending upon which you call the first)

It's described the same as the one in Rev 12.
Re 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Re 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

That's where I'm saying you're grouping them together.

I did use, incorrectly, "All", but that wasn't my first comment. It was, There are more than one beast and a beast of beasts.

Elle, Edom does figure into end time prophecy more than most Adventists realize.

I've been studying it for a while and I think Edom, one of the most unrelenting enemies of God's people in the past,

the descendants of Esau the brother of Jacob, stands for those who have a good knowledge of sacred things, (like) Jews and Christians especially, but who(the Edomites) at the end persecute God's people.

However, the prophecy in Daniel 11:41 says many in Edom, Moab and Amon will escape the final deception of the beast. That text could also have a secondary, literal meaning that the country of Jordan which occupies the territory where Edom, Moab and Amon used to be will not come under the control of the beast.

"Hyrcanus took also Dora and Marissa, cities of Idumea, and subdued all the Idumeans ; and permitted them to stay in that country, if they would be circumcised, and make use of the laws of the Jews; and they were so desirous of living in the country of their forefathers, that they submitted to the use of circumcision and the rest of the Jews' ways of living; at which time therefore, this befell them, that they were hereafter no other than Jews."

a)The first beast of Rev 13:1 is said having 7 heads and 10 horns. It is the same said in Rev 17:3,7 and in Rev 12:3. In Dn 7:7,20,24 describe it having 10 horns with no mention of the 7 heads.

Do we agree kland that the little horn of Dan 7 is the same as the first beast of Rev 13?

I agree Rev 12:3; Rev 17:3; and would add Rev 13:1 and Dan 7 are all the same BEAST which is the RCC that God gave dominion over the earth for 1260 years.

Mark, Edom isn't always referenced in a negative light in the Bible.

Tim Roosenberg in his presentations speaks favourably of Edom based on the following text:

Dan 11:41 ESV He shall come into the glorious land. And tens of thousands shall fall, but these shall be delivered out of his hand: Edom and Moab and the main part of the Ammonites.

To my shock, Donald Trump was elected, inaugurated and continued in office for more than a year.
I DID NOT SEE THIS COMING
There is so much Bible prophecy fulfilled and understood that this was UNIMAGINABLE.

Tim is in error in his understanding of Daniel. We corresponded and when I showed him his error, he broke off the conversation.

Are you now saying that Trump will be the last president of the USA???

Are you now saying that Trump will be the last president of the USA???

I think he was saying it didn't really count that Trump was president that this was just an "extra" type of thing.

What was it that you showed him?

President Trump is the next to the last American President.

Does that mean we can count backwards 7, or 8, presidents?

Does that matter? It looks like a frivolous question??? humoring me?

The four earth kings identified in Daniel 7 were Reagan, Bush I, Clinton and Bush II.

As the 4th beast had been pagan and papal Rome in a partial fulfillment, the 4th is 2 presidents: Bush II and Obama.

In Revelation 13 by the time the papacy reached the last head in the prophetic hour from 1929 to 2013 (Benedict the pope that ruled for a short space) Satan's authority and power had moved to President Bush II and Obama (the 2 horns on the second beast). Obviously since the 2nd beast only had 2 horns the last ruler from America was Obama. And he was the last president elected by the American people according to the system set up in the Constitution.

But Trump is the third horn on the second beast. That is a problem if the 2nd beast only has 2 horns. The difficulty is with the word 2.

When Pope John-Paul II ruled for 42 FULL months from 9/11/01 to his death 4/2/05 there were 20 days in excess of the 42 months. But on the Hebrew calendar, the month of Adar I was added exactly 2x's between 9/11/01-4/2/05. Thus on the Hebrew calendar, it was 42 plus 2 months to the very day from 9/11/01 - 4/2/05. This confirms that the 2 in 42 months should be read as 2 & 2. the same is true of the 2 in the 2 lamblike horns text, 2 & 2.

Bush II and Obama were the first 2. Trump and Pence are the last 2. After Michael Pence becomes President the little time of trouble will morph into the time of Jacob's trouble.

That's the way it is.

Regarding Daniel and Revelation EGW states that by their fulfillment "they will explain themselves."

• It would be helpful, not only for us but for you as well, to make a table of all your predictions to date and whether they came to pass or not. In that way, you can be honest, at peace with and feel confident about yourself and we can know whether there is in fact a prophet among us or not.
   
• ▓ You cannot ignore, hide or blot out your errors though. That would be cheating. ▓
   
• Think of it as an impartial, evidential investigative judgment done by you about you and therefore fully trustworthy.

///

One area where you deserve credit H.C. is -- you have a great imagination.

But here is why I can't agree with your interpretations of prophecy.

Points 1&2. The number 666 being applied to specific people, instead of to a system or power.

Could you give us some sort of idea of how many people, who don't know you, have purchased your books? Something like 100, 1000, 10000?