Moab, Edom, Amon

Posted By: dedication

Moab, Edom, Amon - 02/11/18 09:04 PM

This could be an interesting subject to investigate:

On another thread, Mark Shipowick wrote:
Quote:
Edom does figure into end time prophecy more than most Adventists realize. I've been studying it for a while and I think Edom, one of the most unrelenting enemies of God's people in the past, the descendants of Esau the brother of Jacob, stands for those who have a good knowledge of sacred things, Jews and Christians especially, but who at the end persecute God's people. However, the prophecy in Daniel 11:41 says many in Edom, Moab and Amon will escape the final deception of the beast. That text could also have a secondary, literal meaning that the country of Jordan which occupies the territory where Edom, Moab and Amon used to be will not come under the control of the beast.


The questions raised were mainly -- is this "escape" and these "national" identities something positive or negative?

What is it that they "escape"?

Quoting from Daniel:
Quote:
11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 02/11/18 10:26 PM

Daryl commented that
Quote:
Tim Roosenberg in his presentations speaks favourably of Edom based on the following text in Daniel 11


So what does Tim Roosenberg say?

Originally Posted By: Roosenberg
These verses suggest a three way breakup of Islam.
1. Those who "escape" from the papal alliance are represented by modern Jordan, a moderate Islamic state....escape the mark of the beast.
2. Those who do not escape-- Egypt and many others. They are the radical center of Islam that will be defeated.
3. Those that shall follow at his heels. (page 210 "Islam and Christianity"


It is a very hopeful picture for the people living in that area, if this is the correct interpretation.

But do any of these passages have any light on the subject?
We can look at a passage in Isaiah:

Isaiah 11
"11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea....



Then there's the passage in Nehemiah
13:1 On that day they read in the book of Moses in the audience of the people; and therein was found written, that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever;
13:2 Because they met not the children of Israel with bread and with water, but hired Balaam against them, that he should curse them:


How do these verses fit together?

We know the "root of Jesse" is the Messiah -- Jesus Christ.
He is our standard of hope and salvation.
Offering a "rest" that is most glorious.

Gentiles seek the message.

Yet, the passage shows God's people scattered.
Is the "gathering" literal to one place, or is it a spiritual gathering to Jesus, the "root of Jesse"?

I believe it is a spiritual gathering to Christ, not a literal gathering to one place BECAUSE, God's remnant are not seen gathered in one place at the end of the chapter.

Also, every time EGW quotes this passage from Isaiah 11, she does so in the context of --
"These words outline our work...The glad tidings of salvation are to be carried to those who have not heard them.... Among the people of God there is to be no colonizing... Everywhere the truth for this time is to be proclaimed. {RH, June 23, 1904}

Isaiah 11 also contains the word "but"
Why is there a "but" in the middle of a passage that seems to be speaking of a great successful ingathering of saints?

Who are these who "fly on the shoulders of the Philistines" of the west --

The Philistines are enemies of God's people, have the "Gentiles" who earlier took up the ensign of Christ, mounted upon the power of the adversary?

Could it be another "woman riding the beast" picture?

They are aggressive == doing a lot of warlike "spoiling" east and west.
Interestingly they do not "spoil" Edom, Moab or Ammon, but they still make them obey.
Who is making them obey -- who are they obeying?

What is meant when Nehemiah says:
the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever;
Posted By: Alchemy

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 02/24/18 09:50 PM

I have noticed this verse as well. I have always taken it to mean that God has not forgotten those nations related to Israel and that a remnant of them will be saved in the last days.

My question still is who is represented by Ammon, Moab and Edom? I guess they could come out of the Arab nations since the Ishmaelite's are also related to Isaac.
Posted By: Elle

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 02/27/18 05:49 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
So what does Tim Roosenberg say?

Originally Posted By: Roosenberg

These verses suggest a three way breakup of Islam.
1. Those who "escape" from the papal alliance are represented by modern Jordan, a moderate Islamic state....escape the mark of the beast.
2. Those who do not escape-- Egypt and many others. They are the radical center of Islam that will be defeated.
3. Those that shall follow at his heels. (page 210 "Islam and Christianity"

It is a very hopeful picture for the people living in that area, if this is the correct interpretation.

But do any of these passages have any light on the subject?

I never read much of Roosenberg’s writings beside a few post here on this forum. If my understanding from the comments of people on this forum saying about Rossenberg is correct -- to interpret Dan 11:41 to say that in the last days this means they(Edom, Moab & Amon) will become 3 Islamic nations – I think it lacks much Biblical grounds and historical knowledge about what happened to these 3 nations.
Originally Posted By: Alchemy

My question still is who is represented by Ammon, Moab and Edom? I guess they could come out of the Arab nations since the Ishmaelite's are also related to Isaac.

I don’t know if you got this idea that they were from Ishmael’s descendants from Roosenberg or not; but a simple Bible query would of gave you the answer right away. The Ammonites, nor the Moabites, nor the Edomites are descendance of Ishmael. Edom (from Esau, twin brother of Jacob) is related to Isaac(not Ishmael) and the Moab and Ammon are the incestrous children of Lot(nephew of Abraham) when he and his 2 daughters fled from Sodom. Gen 19:36 “Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. 37. And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. 38. And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

Originally Posted By: dedication
But do any of these passages have any light on the subject? We can look at a passage in Isaiah: Isaiah 11
"11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together:they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea....

Then there's the passage in Nehemiah
13:1 On that day they read in the book of Moses in the audience of the people; and therein was found written, that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever;
13:2 Because they met not the children of Israel with bread and with water, but hired Balaam against them, that he should curse them:

How do these verses fit together?

The timing factor needs to be considered. Isaiah 11 refers to during the Millennium time when the “root of Jesse” will have dominion over the earth and the nations will be absorb into the Kingdom of God. Whereas Nehemiah 13 refers to these nations before the Millennium when they are still not gathered into the Kingdom of God.

The context of Isaiah 11 is set from verse 1 to verse 9 where it talks about the whole earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord like the water covers the sea. How much percent does the water cover the sea? 100%. This is the picture of the coming millennium also given in Daniel 2:36 where it says that little stone(God’s Kingdom) that struck the statue…will become a great mountain that will filled the whole earth. Read Isaiah 11:1,4 talking about the rod of Jesse coming out of his mouth and compare it to Rev 19:11-15 describing the 2nd coming of Jesus that out of his mouth cometh out a sharp sword (==the sword of the Spirit) and he shall rule them (the nations) with a rod of iron.

Originally Posted By: dedication
We know the "root of Jesse" is the Messiah -- Jesus Christ.
He is our standard of hope and salvation.
Offering a "rest" that is most glorious.

Gentiles seek the message.

Yet, the passage shows God's people scattered.

Remember the prophecies given to Hosea…Yes Israel who is Gomer, a whore and her bastard children whose name prophesied that Israel (==God’s wife) would be scattered into the world(==divorce). The end of the prophecy says that Jesus will woe her back, marry her, and will reap all the nations in the process.
Originally Posted By: dedication
Is the "gathering" literal to one place, or is it a spiritual gathering to Jesus, the "root of Jesse"?

I believe it is a spiritual gathering to Christ, not a literal gathering to one place BECAUSE, God's remnant are not seen gathered in one place at the end of the chapter.

I do agree that it is a spiritual gathering to Christ. I don’t agree with your BECAUSE clause or your view of who is the “remnant”.
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
I have noticed this verse as well. I have always taken it to mean that God has not forgotten those nations related to Israel and that a remnant of them will be saved in the last days.

This is the typical view of most denominations. Yes, the Bible does talk about a remnant; but it mainly points to the first resurrection group where only a remnant make it that we call the 144k or the overcomers(Rev 20:5,6). They will rule as Priests with Christ during the Millennium as shown in the law type and described in the prophecy of Ezk 44. They are the first harvest(Barley) of the feasts in the law which is a firstfruit type of harvest that bless the remaining two harvests (wheat & grapes) that comes later. You cannot be a firstfruit without blessing a greater harvest coming after.

There’s so many other texts in the Bible that says that God will be saving ALL and not just a remnant. One being the following “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ” 1Co 15:22 The “all” that died in Adam is the same “all” that “in Christ shall all be made alive”.

I thought Isaiah 11:11 was interesting saying that “the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people”. This implies that there was a first time that a remnant was recover. I see the first as being the overcomers aka the 144k who are the priesthood body of Christ. This second group of remnant, could be what the remaining of Isaiah 11:12-16 is referring. It could happens during the Millennium or it could include after the time of the great White throne judgment until the end of the Jubilee. Right now my impression it is during the Millennium; but I need more studying and reflecting and the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth about this.

Originally Posted By: dedication
Who are these who "fly on the shoulders of the Philistines" of the west --

The Philistines are enemies of God's people, have the "Gentiles" who earlier took up the ensign of Christ, mounted upon the power of the adversary?

I think it’s worth to make a Biblical correction here because how we view “the others” whether they be a gentile nation giving the Israelites some problems or your uncle & twin brother in the case of Jacob. We often view “them” as our enemies when in realities these are God’s agent to lead us to repentance.

I couldn’t find anywhere in the Bible where God called the Philistines as His enemy. The Israelites viewed the Philistines as their enemies; but I don’t believe this was God’s view of the Philistines. Our view or perspective of things are often NOT God’s view or perspective.
Do a search with the word “enemy” or “enemies” you will see that most texts are talking about the Israelites enemies and not God’s.

We have a main Biblical event where the Babylonians were the enemies of the nation of Judah; but God called King Nebuchadnezzar His servant 3 times. The Babylonians were God’s agent to bring judgment on Judah for their rebellion.

We have in Isaiah 63:10 where God does define who He view as His opponent (enemy) by which God himself become their enemy. "But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore, He (God) turned Himself to become THEIR ENEMY; HE FOUGHT AGAINST THEM. " ( also Jer. 30:14.) This is in harmony with the law of tribulation found in Lev. 26:21-25, “But if ye will not hearken unto me… I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you…

According to what’s written in the Bible, God's opponent (enemy) is not in terms of race, nationality or religion; but it defines God's enemies as those who rebel against His rule….especially those that were taught His laws and entrusted with His authorities “to rule” (==meaning to be a blessing) over all their neighbor nations. But Israel didn’t want to bless the nations around them but only wanted to enslaved the gentiles forever and not follow the law of Jubilee and other laws that would of blessed the nations. So when His chosen people refuse to be ruled by God or follow His laws then God judged (correct them like a loving father would…God’s judgment are always corrective in nature and never punitive) them by putting them into captivity to foreign nation.

In the book of Judges we see the law in Lev 26 & Deut 28 in application where the nation of Israel were put into captivity 6 times by foreign nations. These foreign nations were all viewed by Israel as their enemies, but for God these foreign nations were agents of judgments to lead the Israelites to repentance.

My view is that foreign nations were viewed by God as His servant when God told us in the book of Jeremiah that He sent the Babylonian to bring judgment on Judah. That was the 7th captivity. It was the longest of all captivities that lasted 7 times (7 x 360 years = 2560 years) as prophesied with King Nebuchadnezzar becoming a “beast’ like for 7 years in Daniel 4. So we are still under the 7th captivity until this day that brings us to the last ruling beast that came from the earth of Rev 13 who is also called Mystery[secret] Babylon, the whore riding the beast in Rev 17.

It is true that these foreign nations are also in rebellion to God’s rule in their ignorance; however God has elected the nation of Israel to be the first ones to teach(& correct them when in rebellion) them His laws so to make them a holy nation of priests so they could later bless the nations around them. That is God's plan of salvation. The Israelites failed because they were under the old covenant. The old covenant had to fail because it is based on Man’s promise to follow all of God’s law. Man just cannot keep his promise and we all have to experience that first before we give up to rely on the power of the flesh. Whereas the New covenant cannot fail because it is based on God’s promise alone to write His laws in our heart. So the body of overcomers (a remant) will be the firstfruits having God’s laws fully written on their heart. And they with Christ will not fail the holy Abrahamic commission of blessing all the families of the earth. That is God’s plan described in the law and it is still His plan today and He will fulfill all His word.

Originally Posted By: dedication
Christ, mounted upon the power of the adversary?

Could it be another "woman riding the beast" picture?

??? I don't know exactly what you mean here.

Originally Posted By: dedication
They are aggressive == doing a lot of warlike "spoiling" east and west.
Interestingly they do not "spoil" Edom, Moab or Ammon, but they still make them obey.
Who is making them obey -- who are they obeying?

What is meant when Nehemiah says:
the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever;

I see no where in the text where it hints that they are aggressive.
You are deriving this assumption based on a single word "spoil" in v.14. But if you read v.13 the "they" is Ephraim and Judah. They are the ones that "fly on the shoulders of the Philistines"; so the spoils goes to them. There are many prophecies that describes the victory of the true Israelites at the end times who will have the spoils (well really it goes to the Kingdom of God).

Also, read the context of Isaiah 11:1-9…I think you are missing the picture and off context of the Biblical narrative. According to the context, I see Isaiah 11 describing the coming Millennium when Jesus (who is the head and also the root of Jesse) and the overcomers (the remnant who form His body of priesthood) will be given dominion (Daniel 2 & 7) and rule (Rev 20:6) over the earth (Rev 5:10; Dan 2:36).

The spoil goes to the Kingdom of God treasury as we see this picture when the priesthood leading the army of God (the remaining of the body of believers) into Canaan under Joshua who is a type of Jesus at His 2nd coming.

According to the context, I see Isaiah 11:10-16 talking about an absorption (conversion) of many nations under the root of Jesse (Jesus-Christ). It won't happen immediately, but a gradual process as described in Daniel 2:36 that "the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. " The text says the small stone became a great mountain...denoting that there was a process of time that took place between the little stone before it became a great mountain that the Kingdom of God eventually filled the whole earth. Both the stone and the great mountain is the Kingdom of God.

Daniel 2:44 also says that God’s kingdom that started as a small stone will never be destroyed "in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. " Dan 2:44

Plus we have in Isaiah 2:2 telling us that all the nations will go to God's Mountain(=kingdom) "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. " This texts tells us that there's other kingdoms from other nations living in conjunction to God's Kingdom; however God will establish His Kingdom above all others. So Edom and all other nations will eventually get converted and join the root of Jesse during the Millennium. This is the picture of the coming Millennium that I see reveal in scriptures.

Jesus must Reign until all things shall be Subdued

Then we have in 1Cor 15:25,28 saying that Jesus "must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet....And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. ”.

I don’t believe that Jesus will succeed to subdue all things during the millennium; because after the Millennium we have the second resurrection and Satan will be released from his prison then to tempt them. However, what is interesting perhaps Isaiah 11:11 that talks about a second recovery of remnant seems to happen during the Millennium. The people that didn’t make the first remnant group, might become part of the second recovery of remnant by being prepared during the Millennium by working with Christ and His body of Priests for what comes after the great white throne judgment. I really don’t know who is the second recovery of remnant as this is the first time I've noticed that section of that text. However time will tell us all how all of these prophecies will be fulfilled.

Let's look at other scriptures about Edom that points to the time BEFORE the Millennium comes. There’s many key prophetic text that I will compile in order of appearance in scripture that will give some context that I think it describe a return of Edom at the end time who I believe is part of the last Beast of Rev 13 and who is also the woman who rides the beast in Rev 17.
Posted By: kland

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 03/05/18 07:48 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication

So what does Tim Roosenberg say?

Originally Posted By: Roosenberg
These verses suggest a three way breakup of Islam.
1. Those who "escape" from the papal alliance are represented by modern Jordan, a moderate Islamic state....escape the mark of the beast.
2. Those who do not escape-- Egypt and many others. They are the radical center of Islam that will be defeated.
3. Those that shall follow at his heels. (page 210 "Islam and Christianity"


It is a very hopeful picture for the people living in that area, if this is the correct interpretation.

Does that mean that only if it's correct, they can be hopeful to escape the mark of the beast, that there's no other way? Predestined?
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 03/06/18 06:14 PM

I read the following today:

Do we not hear these very words repeated, not merely by the openly ungodly, but by many who occupy the pulpits of our land? "There is no cause for alarm," they cry. "Before Christ shall come, all the world is to be converted, and righteousness is to reign for a thousand years. Peace, peace! all things continue as they were from the beginning. Let none be disturbed by the exciting message of these alarmists." But this doctrine of the millennium does not harmonize with the teachings of Christ and His apostles. Jesus asked the significant question, "When the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8. And, as we have seen, He declares that the state of the world will be as in the days of Noah. Paul warns us that we may look for wickedness to increase as the end draws near: "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils." 1 Timothy 4:1. The apostle says that "in the last days perilous times shall come." 2 Timothy 3:1. And he gives a startling list of sins that will be found among those who have a form of godliness. {PP 102.2}
Posted By: Charity

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 03/10/18 03:01 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication

The questions raised were mainly -- is this "escape" and these "national" identities something positive or negative?

What is it that they "escape"?

Quoting from Daniel:
Quote:
11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.



Good, Dedication, let's look at that: Is the future escape of Edom, Moab and Amon in Daniel 11:41 a good thing or a bad thing? You imply it's bad, which suggests to me that you think these three represent that part of the Arab world that sides with the King of the North. Those Arabic nation that don't align with him are overrun. Am I understanding you right?

And one of the main reasons that you hold that view is the Mosaic statute that no Moabite or Amonite was ever to be permitted to become a part of the congregation of Israel. Good observation and plausible interpretation/application IMO. I'll look at this some more.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 03/11/18 01:34 AM

First, sorry for my misspelling of Ammon.

Regarding the application to Daniel 11:41 of the Mosaic prohibition against Ammonites and Moabites ever becoming part of the congregation, this is only part of the picture. In the same passage it allows the Edomites membership after the third generation. In addition, Ruth, the great grandmother of King David became an Isrealite and she was a Moabite. Therefore the prohibition was only against Moabite men. This agrees with other provisions of the Mosaic law regarding the capture and subjection of surrounding nations that God had not marked for total destruction. In those cases the Mosaic law allowed these women who became wives of their captors to be full Israelites. But regardless, because this prohibition against Ammonite and Moabite males was part of the Mosaic law, it was annulled by the death of Christ so it does not apply after 33AD.

And after re-reading Isaiah 11 and other passages, I'd still say that these three symbolize those of the Arab world that escape clean out of the grasp of the King of the North and are grafted into spiritual Israel and become true children of Abraham by faith. This is not to say that any physical nation will do this, but only that those Arab converts who are grafted into spiritual Israel are symbolically represented by these three.

In my original statement that Dedication quoted I probably went too far in speculating that Daniel 11:41 could also have a literal application.

Here is how I read Isaiah 11:
Quote:

Isa 11:10 And in that day [the end-times] there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, [the Sabbath, the law of God and the faith of Jesus] and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
Isa 11:14 But they [spiritual Israel] shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together [spiritual Israel will make converts of some of them]: they [spiritual Israel] shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them. [these converts will be prominent among the gentile converts for their loyalty to spiritual Israel]
Isa 11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
Isa 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, [other gentile converts] which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

Jer 49:6 And afterward [in the latter days] I will bring again the captivity of the children of Ammon, saith the LORD.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 03/11/18 02:39 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: dedication
It is a very hopeful picture for the people living in that area, if this is the correct interpretation.
Does that mean that only if it's correct, they can be hopeful to escape the mark of the beast, that there's no other way? Predestined?

Everyone is urged to escape the mark of the beast, and by faith and the grace and power of God may do so. But I was referring to a prophecy concerning whole countries or nations; is Roosenberg's interpretation correct? If it is, then it would seem whole nations are prophesied as escaping the mark of the beast. My question was concerning the correctness of that interpretation.

What are your thoughts on this verse?

11:41 but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

Actually, I haven't taken any definite view on that verse as of yet
Posted By: James Peterson

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 03/11/18 04:56 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: dedication
It is a very hopeful picture for the people living in that area, if this is the correct interpretation.
Does that mean that only if it's correct, they can be hopeful to escape the mark of the beast, that there's no other way? Predestined?

Everyone is urged to escape the mark of the beast, and by faith and the grace and power of God may do so. But I was referring to a prophecy concerning whole countries or nations; is Roosenberg's interpretation correct? If it is, then it would seem whole nations are prophesied as escaping the mark of the beast. My question was concerning the correctness of that interpretation.

What are your thoughts on this verse?

11:41 but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

Actually, I haven't taken any definite view on that verse as of yet


Look at this map.

What do you see?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 03/12/18 05:59 AM

Originally Posted By: James Peterson

Originally Posted By: dedication

What are your thoughts on this verse?

11:41 but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

Actually, I haven't taken any definite view on that verse as of yet


Look at this map.

What do you see?


I see a nice map showing the location of Edom, Moab and Ammon in relationship with the kingdoms of Judah and Israel as it was about 2850 years ago, before the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests.
Posted By: James Peterson

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 03/12/18 07:05 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: James Peterson

Originally Posted By: dedication

What are your thoughts on this verse?

11:41 but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

Actually, I haven't taken any definite view on that verse as of yet


Look at this map.

What do you see?


I see a nice map showing the location of Edom, Moab and Ammon in relationship with the kingdoms of Judah and Israel as it was about 2850 years ago, before the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests.

It illustrates the path of lightning but short-lived conquest of a ruthless king (Dan. 11:41-46) leading down to Egypt, Libya and Ethiopia. It's that simple. It's what the angel said.

///

Posted By: kland

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 03/12/18 06:58 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: dedication
It is a very hopeful picture for the people living in that area, if this is the correct interpretation.
Does that mean that only if it's correct, they can be hopeful to escape the mark of the beast, that there's no other way? Predestined?

Everyone is urged to escape the mark of the beast, and by faith and the grace and power of God may do so. But I was referring to a prophecy concerning whole countries or nations; is Roosenberg's interpretation correct? If it is, then it would seem whole nations are prophesied as escaping the mark of the beast. My question was concerning the correctness of that interpretation.

What are your thoughts on this verse?

11:41 but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

Actually, I haven't taken any definite view on that verse as of yet

Daniel 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

Whether a country is overthrown or not does not determine whether the people receive the mark of the beast. Escaping from the overthrowing does not reflect receiving or not receiving the mark.

Has your country been overthrown? Have some received the mark of the beast? I'd say many have in the U.S.

So overthrowing or not has no relation to receiving or not receiving the mark of the beast.
Posted By: kland

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 03/12/18 07:00 PM

Perhaps you should define, "the mark of the beast".
Posted By: kland

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 03/12/18 07:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
But regardless, because this prohibition against Ammonite and Moabite males was part of the Mosaic law, it was annulled by the death of Christ so it does not apply after 33AD.
Not not mean I disagree, but do you have something specific about being annulled at death? I'd be interested to know.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 03/13/18 07:26 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Perhaps you should define, "the mark of the beast".


Probably better to direct you to the one who initially made the statement his book.

Remember Daryl commented that
Tim Roosenberg in his presentations speaks favourably of Edom based on that text in Daniel 11.


So I asked, what does Tim Roosenberg say?

I quoted from: Roosenberg's book -- (quoting it again to include the full statement, which may better answer Kland's question.

Originally Posted By: Roosenberg
These verses suggest a three way breakup of Islam.
1. Those who "escape" from the papal alliance are represented by modern Jordan, a moderate Islamic state. Spiritually this my represent the Islamic "children of Abraham" spiritually from the line of Lot, Ishmael, and Esau who will accept Jesus
(Gal. 3:26-29, Matt.8:11) and escape
the mark of the beast (Rev.13:8, Hebrews 2:3),
those who do not follow the Papacy and are
written in the book, Daniel 12:1 and Rev.17:8.!

2. Those who do not escape-- Egypt and many others. They are the radical center of Islam that will be defeated.
3. Those that shall follow at his heels. (taken from "Islam & Christianity" p.210, by Tim Roosenberg)




Roosenberg has an interesting chart
CHART
The red line represents the papal power, the black the Islamic power, and how it fits the Biblical prophetic time lines.


Then at this link
STUDY GUIDE he gives his thoughts, verse by verse, on Daniel 11:3 to Dan. 12:3.

The quote I shared are his comments on Daniel 11:41, from that study -- though I also have the study in his book.
Posted By: kland

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 03/14/18 03:23 AM

Well, although you seem well versed in what the book says, if you aren't going to tell me, I'll have to find some time to look up the links, which doesn't sound like it tells, or find access to his book, which may be difficult.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 03/14/18 07:40 AM

Roosenberg's definition of the "mark of the beast"? The best place to go to find that is his book and sermons.

In previous quote:
"the mark of the beast..
those who do not follow the Papacy and are
written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, (the papal beast) whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

From his book --page 116 and 118
Originally Posted By: Rooseberg's book

The book of Revelation speaks of a seal and a mark. You want God's sign--the seal--not the beast's sign, the mark. Would any sane person want to receive the mark? God is pretty emphatic with that warning. The people with the seal are following Jesus, because they love Him. "Here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus," says verse 12.....

Likewise, the new covenant that we found in Jeremiah 31:31-33 was God's law being written in our hearts and our minds. Remember that the new covenant comes in the Old Testament and it is about worship . We worship the Creator God...

Ezekiel 20:12 identifies the sign that we are God's people and He is our God. "I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them." He said that His sign is the Sabbath.

We saw earlier that the king of the north shifted the day of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, and that the king of the south established his day of public assembly and worship on Friday. Satan is pulling the Sabbath off the mark...

Some claim that by observing the Sabbath we try to make ourselves holy, but the exact opposite is true. God said that keeping the Sabbath is a reminder that it is He who renders us holy. [sanctifies us}...

The king of the north went to Sunday, the king of the South to Friday, and God's people--His true Israel--as they honor His Word find themselves worshipping on the Saturday Sabbath, between the two days...caught in the middle. They have to hang on to Jesus even though the going gets tough for a while.


His own words
Tidings from the East and the Mark of the Beast

.




Posted By: James Peterson

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 03/14/18 06:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Rooseberg's book
page 116 and 118:

The book of Revelation speaks of a seal and a mark. You want God's sign--the seal--not the beast's sign, the mark. Would any sane person want to receive the mark? God is pretty emphatic with that warning. The people with the seal are following Jesus, because they love Him. "Here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus," says verse 12.....

Likewise, the new covenant that we found in Jeremiah 31:31-33 was God's law being written in our hearts and our minds. Remember that the new covenant comes in the Old Testament and it is about worship . We worship the Creator God...

Ezekiel 20:12 identifies the sign that we are God's people and He is our God. "I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them." He said that His sign is the Sabbath.

We saw earlier that the king of the north shifted the day of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, and that the king of the south established his day of public assembly and worship on Friday. Satan is pulling the Sabbath off the mark...

Some claim that by observing the Sabbath we try to make ourselves holy, but the exact opposite is true. God said that keeping the Sabbath is a reminder that it is He who renders us holy. [sanctifies us}...

The king of the north went to Sunday, the king of the South to Friday, and God's people--His true Israel--as they honor His Word find themselves worshipping on the Saturday Sabbath, between the two days...caught in the middle. They have to hang on to Jesus even though the going gets tough for a while.


shoe·horn

noun
1.
a curved instrument used to ease one's heel into a shoe.

verb
1.
force into an inadequate space.
  • "people were shoehorned into cramped corners", OR
     
  • "passages of scripture have been shoehorned into the doctrines of men and vice versa", OR
     
  • "the sabbath has been shoehorned into the cross of Christ", OR
     
  • "the fulcrum of salvation is no longer Christ but a period of time when men look pious. Look pious on Wednesdays? Not counted. Look pious on Saturdays? Glory Alleluia!" OR
     
  • "the cross of Christ has been overshadowed by a day", OR
     
  • "men bow down before an alter of Sabbath and pray, crying out, 'Save me!'" OR
     
  • "who cares what the scripture says, we love SABBATH", OR
     
  • "let's throw in a mention of jesus here and there and make it sound like the real deal", OR
     
  • "Saturday cleanses us from all unrighteousness. Amen!"


///
Posted By: dedication

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 03/16/18 09:39 AM

If you look to the Sabbath to save you -- yes then you will be sorely disappointed. God's law doesn't save anyone. Christ saves, forgives and cleanses.
If Sabbath observance is just a "ritual" one thinks they have to perform in order to earn merits with God, they have the wrong concept. A cultural Sabbath is nothing more than a cultural ritual. Meaningless, if the meaning is lost.

But think of it this way, if Christ took one ordinary day of the week and made it HOLY. (As Genesis 2:3 says He did)
Does that make it special?
Now think == in what way does it make it special?

What Christ makes holy -- is holy.
Next step.
Do you believe Christ can make you holy?
If He can make a day holy -- doesn't it give assurance that He can make you and me holy?

"I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them." Ez. 20:12

Meditate on that verse


  • [1]a sign, not the means, but a sign -- a sign of what?
    [2] between us and our Lord == (a relationship with our Lord)
    [3] a sign that we look to the Lord to sanctify (make us holy).
    [4] and that we KNOW, --- we know what? We KNOW that He sanctifies us ==
    He alone is the source and power for sanctification and holiness.



What is "holiness"?

Isn't it in Christ, by accepting His grace, and seeking His will for our lives, and submitting ourselves to Him, being led by His Spirit on the paths of righteousness?
And if He asks us to REMEMBER something, what do we do?
Will fighting against what He asks us to REMEMBER bring salvation and holiness?

Is the cross to be looked at as an "indulgence" to disregard His will for us?

The Sabbath is a sign that Christ is our Lord and Savior and we are trusting in HIM to sanctify us!
We come to Him in obedience to His call to remember; "confident of this very thing, that he which has begun a good work in us will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Phil 1:6


A sign is often a small thing --
Like a flag -- shoe horned into allegiance to a whole country.
Trample on it, and that is a sign of something much deeper.






Posted By: Charity

Re: Moab, Edom, Amon - 03/17/18 03:11 AM

It looks like my view and Tim's is about the same. Let's pray for each other and for our brother James.
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