What if there is no such thing as free will?

Where did Luther say this?

Better yet, where does the Bible say this, or even hint of this?

This is possibly along the lines I've struggled with.

I've had this question: if we all have the same chance at Salvation then why do we not all choose the same? If one person chooses to follow God and another chooses not to why is that? Is there something in our genetic makeup that causes one person to choose one way or the other? Do we really have the free will to choose? Or is it all in our genes what way we will go? If so is this fair?

Redfog

Hey Redfog,

I love your signature!!! LOL

I agree with Daryl that God gives everyone a choice. He also says that He considers where we were born in the equation. If you struggle with your understanding of election you might want to consider looking into an open view. Many people have a problem balancing God's absolute foreknowledge with freedom. For many of these people the idea that God actually takes risks, not necessarily knowing, therefore controlling, every future move, is a relief.

I personally don't believe that God planned sin to happen although He knew of the possibility and made provision for it. True love can only exist in true freedom. And true freedom can only exist within the possibility of making bad choices. God took a great risk in creating beings with the ability to love like He loves.

In Christ, scott

Redfog, I think the answer to your question is a mystery. That is, why some respond one way and others don't.

There was a movie directed by Robert Redford called "A River Runs Through It" where there was a tragic figure, the brother of the story-teller, who had problems with alcohol and gambling, and someone asked, I think it was his wife, "Why is it that the people who need help the most are the very ones who won't accept it?"

It must break God's heart unimaginably when His children won't respond to Him. To a large extent, for many, I'm sure it's because they don't understand Him. How can He get through? Certainly this is the most difficult question God has had to face. The cross was/is a brilliant solution, which at least gets through to some, thank God for that.

But no, there's no "choose God" gene which gets set to on or off. We all have a free choice. As Scott mentioned, God takes into account our circumstances. The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that God gives those in more difficult circumstances more grace; the Bible says, "where sin abounds, grace does much more abound."

As to people not having he same opportunity, there's no way around that, is there? Some get born into godly homes, and others are raised by drug addicts. This is just one of the many trajedies of sin, which manifests itself in injustice in many ways.

From the revelation of Jesus Christ we can know that God suffers more than anyone else with these things, that He hates injustice, and that He is fighting against it, willing to do all that He can to fight it.

One of the questions related to free will is how we explain the existence of evil in our world in conjunction with an infinitely power, infinitely good God. It is my opinion that God values free will above anything else, and that it is part and parcel to having beings which are capable of loving and capable of being loved.

If there is no such thing as free will, it seems to me that much of the blame for evil in the world must fall on God. OTOH, if we perceive that God respects free will above anything else, that He will not violate this principle, then it is possible to construct a theodicy where God is entirely innocent.

(Theodicy is a specific branch of theology and philosophy that attempts to reconcile the existence of evil in the world with the assumption of a benevolent God. An attempt to reconcile the co-existence of evil and God may thus be called "a theodicy".)

I've actually resolved this issue, not by reason but by faith. Through the years I've seen God working in my life, and others as well. So it is by seeing His workings that I've developed the faith that He is fair, even though my little old limited mind cannot understand it.

Redfog

We all agree that we all have choices to make. The question is can we make good choices on our own. Christ says, apart from me you can do nothing - nothing good that is. We all have consciences so we know to some extent what is good. But unless God empowers us, we can't follow through and do what we know to be right. Romans 7.

So, as I've said on the other thread, wills, yes, free, no. The will to do good does not exist in the carnel person. It has to be created in the person by the Holy Spirit and energized before the person can accomplish any good thing. There are many texts that talk about the helplessness of man. Ellen White tells us that we should pray 'take my heart, for I cannot give it'. According to her, we can't even give God our hearts without divine aid. We are not free to do that. When Joshua says choose, he assumes that God will empower us to respond. He is not saying that we have it within ourselves to respond positively. Repentence is a gift. It is always drawing us. The invitation, 'Come unto me. . .' also contains the creative power to obey. Unless our will's are empower, they are helpless. Once they are empowered, the gates of hell can't prevail against them.

Mark, here's the EGW statement you referenced:

Many are inquiring, "How am I to make the surrender of myself to God?" You desire to give yourself to Him, but you are weak in moral power, in slavery to doubt, and controlled by the habits of your life of sin. Your promises and resolutions are like ropes of sand. You cannot control your thoughts, your impulses, your affections. The knowledge of your broken promises and forfeited pledges weakens your confidence in your own sincerity, and causes you to feel that God cannot accept you; but you need not despair. What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision, or of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will. The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise. You cannot change your heart, you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can choose to serve Him. You can give Him your will; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ; your affections will be centered upon Him, your thoughts will be in harmony with Him.(SC 47)

I'm not seeing any implication here that we don't have free will. She said "The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise." This is the same thing as saying God has given free will to men, isn't it?

If Adventists understood by the term 'free will' what Ellen White says about our wills in this passage, our understanding would be correct. The passage is a wonderfully accurate statement of both the power and the limitations of the human will. The confusion in Adventist thinking is that the term 'free will' is often taken to mean that man can do good simply by deciding to do good. So, I'll modify my statement. There is no such thing as free will as that term is commonly understood. But yes, Ellen White herself used the term free will.

Don't most people understand "free will" to mean the power of choice? Isn't what you're really dealing with not free will, but rather the inability to do that which one chooses to do apart from God's power?

What Ellen White outlined is a different concept than what Luther taught. I'm a bit confused as to what you're really wanting to say, because Luther and Ellen White had very different ideas about free will, yet you are apparently agreeing with both.

Surely if we do not have free will to choose then God is not a fair God and the Devil has basically proved his point in accusing God of being unjust and His requirements being unreachable.

I agree, Debbie.

The confusion in Adventist thinking is that people think that they can do good simply by deciding to do good.

Is God in control?
God Bless,
Will

what is it that we really choose? humans make decisions that are in their self-interest more often than not. Additionally we choose to avoid pain and seek pleasure...

Think about how the first choice was set up. God said, eat from the tree you die.... when Eve was deceived into thinking that there was no death penalty she quickly decided to try the fruit and be like God... What if God had not attached a consequence to the choice? Something like, "I would prefer you all not to eat the fruit from that tree, okay?" Would the choice have been different?

The other question is this; why is it that the default position for humans with regards to choice is usually evil?

Will, interesting question! The idea that God is in control is vastly understood by many people, largely due, I think, to the influence of Augustine.

God is NOT in control in an Augustinian sense, which means that nothing happens which is not God's will. Many things happen which are not God's will, which is seen throughout the Scriptures, and is evident in our own lives, if we have an understanding of God's character.

In the Lord's prayer, Jesus instructs us to pray, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." If God's will were already being done, we wouldn't need to pray His will to be done. Wars, famines, pestilence, crime, accidents, etc. all show that God's will is not being done.

So in the Augustinian way of thinking, we cannot say that God is in control.

However, if we look at Christ's life, we see that God *is* in control, and how He controls. He "controls" us, and things, just like Jesus Christ did, because when we have seen Jesus, we have seen the Father.

How did Jesus Christ control things? When we answer that question, we will have the answer to the question as to how God controls things.

Stephen, I don't think looking at what God said to Eve as a death penalty attached to eating of the tree is the right way to consider things. This can make it look like an arbitrary penalty, as if under other circumstances it would be possible to sin without dying. But sin must lead to death. It's not possible for sin to not lead to death. So God warned Eve not to eat of the tree which was not hers to eat of, so that eating would be stealing, to avoid the result which would follow, which is death.

Actually it can be looked upon as a death penalty, as long as this is not seen as something which is arbitrarily imposed, but rather as the inevitable consequence. Here's a nice SOP quote which deals with the idea:

Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this" (Matt. 13:27, 28). All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares.(2SM 288)

Quote.
The other question is this; why is it that the default position for humans with regards to choice is usually evil?
Unquote.

Selfishness is our nature inherit from Adam ever since he sinned in Eden where he lost “the glory of God”, the agape love of God created in him.

Selfishness is then contrary to agape, the love that seeks no self in it.

We then have a heart that is selfish, and a sinful nature, as Paul said “the sin is in our members.”

But through the miracle of rebirth or baptism, we might have a new heart, free of self, but still a sinful nature, which would be changed at Christ 2nd coming if we remain faithful.

With a new heart free of self, and a life after the Spirit, our default is no longer evil for our carnal mind that is enmity against God has been taken away.

But looking to my own experience, after many years since receiving a new heart, I elapsed again in my former default. How could it happen? Many factors involved, but I think the most important factor is I gradually averted my eyes from Jesus to self, and at last, I became a selfish man again.

In His love

James S

“For to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.” Romans 7:18.

This means, I have a free will, but by default I could only do evil, even I want to do good. I don’t have the power to do the thing I will, which is good.
Since I could only do evil no matter my will is doing what is good (in the sight of God), I may say, I have no free will, because my will is under enslavement of sin. My heart is selfish, my will is selfish, I could not seek to be unselfish and act accordingly.

A selfish heart gives way to selfish desires; does it have freedom of choice to do accordingly to what it chooses? If you could only do evil no matter what you choose, does it mean you have a free will? I have no free will, the will that is present with me is willing to do one way only, for my own benefit, to seek for my own, it could do nothing else.

In His love

James S

I just can have another will and could perform it when God through His Spirit impart or implant in me his will and by His power and my will to follow it, I could perform what I and He will.

In His love

James S

thanks for your answers to the questions I posed, I have heard them before and would say they are godtalk in a sense, what I mean is that they sound good, have a spiritual tone but don't really clarify or explain the issue...

my personal take is that if our nature's are corrupt then we cannot have free will because we will always choose selfishly... it does not make sense that one choice would change human nature so dramatically. Likewise, the concept of being born again many have found it difficult if not impossible to grasp, and I say that because if people did understand it there would not be as many rebaptisms as there are....

Since God is creator and sustainer of life it seems that from the very start Jesus' statement to the disciples makes sense, i.e. without me you can do nothing.... so is it a matter of being born again or one's mindset being changed... Saul zealous in killing christians, is now Paul zealous to preach the gospel of Christ... did his nature change or did his mindset change?

Being born again *is* one's mindset being changed, so it's not a matter of either or.

It's really not a difficult thing at all. God wants us to spend eternity with Him, starting now. We, because of sin, are unable to, or ourselves, be in harmony with Him. We cannot make ourselves be good (we've all tried).

But God is able to change our mindset, to use your phrase, so that we can both desire and do that which is in harmony with God. All we need do is respond to His drawing. That's it.

If we respond to His drawing, He will so transform us that we can do His will, and more than that, we will want to do His will!

Great subject and discussion!

Aren't we born captive to sin? God works to restore our freedom and Satan works to make us captive through addiction to sin.

That would mean to me that I am not born with a free will. As much as the carnal man wants to do good his selfishness defaults his actions.

Before Adam sinned humanity had a free will. We could choose to do anything that is good or bad, but our desire was to do good. Our default was to be kind and selfless. We were made in our Fathers image (God's character). Once Adam sinned he became sin's captive. This simply means that Adam's mind became corrupted with self and Adam gave up the power to choose to be unselfish. Now all the children of Adam can do is summed up in the term, "survival of the fittest."

God wants to restore our freedom and therefore demonstrated love divine through the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. When we see that love we are called by God's Spirit to respond. We either fall in love with God or we see the cross as a weakness and we despise it. If we fall in love with what we in Christ then we desire to be like Him and we are set right or justified.

God then gives us His Spirit and through our interaction with Him our minds are changed and our freedom is restored. I can choose to rebel anytime I want, but why would I choose to do something that will destroy my freedom. We are changed by the renewing of our minds. Through our connection with God in a personal relationship we begin to think like He thinks and the things that seemed so important to us when we belonged to the world just fade away. Christ delivers us from our bondage and sets us free to choose again. This time we will choose in the full knowledge of the love of God.

When we fall we have a friend who picks us up, wipes us off, and sets us free again. God is awesome!

In Christ, scott

Not responding to anyone in particular. Just some thoughts.

Does: “if I cannot do what I want to do, then I do not have a free will” mean that I do not have a free will?

So a free will would mean that whatever I wish happens. Interesting concept of “free will”. It reminds me sort of a ‘genie’.

This is not the scriptural concept of the will, and its function. Nor is that the concept of salvation. I think we need to consider the scriptural concept and function of the will, and do that which God is asking of us.

A free will means that I am able to think, wish, will, long for and desire, outside of my capabilities. A will that is not free would only reflect the chemical bodily functions, and hence would be the will of the body.

Are we that low that we regard our will simply the outworking of the flesh?
Or, is there a meaningful controversy going on? Is there any spirit left?

I can only respond to this question from my own experience as a Christian. I have been a SDA Christian now for a little over six years, even though I was raised SDA I did not accept Jesus as my savior until I was fifty.

What I have found is that God never will force my actions, or thoughts. Satan on the other hand is all about forcing us to do his will. God wants our obedience; however, we must freely give Him that obedience of our own free will. Jesus in John 8 makes this very clear when he talks about those who sin are slaves to sin.

Satan in contrast to God will accept our service any way he can. For example, say one has a problem with over eating. The individual has surrendered their heart to Jesus, and stating that they are willing to belong totally to Jesus. Then they are tempted to over eat and fall, and do not attempt at true heartfelt confession and turning away from sin. Satan has them; all he needs to do is ensure that they do not totally surrender to Jesus.

I believe that the only aspect of free will that we have is to whom we surrender. Going back to the words of Jesus regarding sin in John 8, from what He is saying it appears that we can be either a slave of Satan or a slave of |Jesus. All of the New Testament writers call themselves the bondservants of Christ. Again, referring to my own Christian walk this seems to be the case.

John

Before we are born again we cannot exercise our will to develop the fruits of the Spirit. But when we are born again, however, we can yield it to Jesus, who returns it us purified and refined. As such, we can exercise our will to work the works of God.

2MCP 694
You cannot control your impulses, your emotions, as you may desire; but you can control the will, and you can make an entire change in your life. By yielding up your will to Christ, your life will be hid with Christ in God and allied to the power which is above all principalities and powers. {2MCP 694.2}

2MCP 691
The Spirit of God does not propose to do our part, either in the willing or the doing. This is the work of the human agent in cooperating with the divine agencies. As soon as we incline our will to harmonize with God's will, the grace of Christ stands to cooperate with the human agent; but it will not be the substitute to do our work independent of our resolving and decidedly acting. {2MCP 691.3}

2MCP 693
God does not design that our will should be destroyed, for it is only through its exercise that we can accomplish what He would have us do. Our will is to be yielded to Him that we may receive it again, purified and refined, and so linked in sympathy with the Divine that He can pour through us the tides of His love and power.--MB 61, 62 (1896). {2MCP 693.4}

What is the difference between "power of will" and "power of self-control"?

2MCP 689
Strength of character consists of two things--power of will and power of self-control. Many youth mistake strong, uncontrolled passion for strength of character, but the truth is that he who is mastered by his passions is a weak man. The real greatness and nobility of the man is measured by the power of the feelings that he subdues, not by the power of the feelings that subdue him. The strongest man is he who, while sensitive to abuse, will yet restrain passion and forgive his enemies. Such men are true heroes.--4T 656 (1881). {2MCP 689.1}

2MCP 691
The power of the will and the importance of self-control, both in the preservation and in the recovery of health, the depressing and even ruinous effect of anger, discontent, selfishness, or impurity and, on the other hand, the marvelous life-giving power to be found in cheerfulness, unselfishness, gratitude, should also be shown.--Ed 197 (1903). {2MCP 691.2}

I liked your post, John. I was reading your post, and thinking about where Jesus said to His disciples that no longer would He call them servants, but friends, because a servant does not know what his master does, whereas Jesus told them everything (a friend knows what his friend does).

I find it very wonderful of God that He regards us as friends. He doesn't want servitude based on authority, but rather that we love and admire Him for who He is. As His friend, He tells us about Himself and His plans, and we freely choose to take part in His plans.

However, the early disciples were so awestruck by God's tremendous self-sacrificing love that they chose to refer to themselves humbly as a servant of God, in appreciation for His tremendous gift. That's how I see it, anyway.

Satan would take our homage any way he can get it, as you point out. But God only wants, and accepts, freely offered homage, given from a loving heart.