When do we experience moral perfection?

Oh I looked up "perfection is" & got 29 hits, will give references later.

Also will seek to briefly define "moral perfection" through 3 areas.

1. How it is found in the human nature of Jesus. (Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.)

2. When spiritual rediness for Heaven is achived as far as attitude / motives. A person's life being cleansed of their individual sins is not being touched on by this definition . (John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.)

3. Whe completeness of christian character IS attained. Character equals thoughts & feelings. (Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.)

It is not an attempt to create the error of holy flesh. That change of "flesh"(human nature)is part of the change that happens AT the Second Coming.

Holy flesh error assumes that a person no longer sins because of a change in their human nature.

Biblical victory over sin shows that a person is rescued from dependance upon their weak nature, through the open door of partaking of Christ's victorious nature. In dependence upon His nature they conquer themselves and circumstances and are kept by Him, as they allow that through actively abiding in Him. The nature of that abiding is built to outreach to others in consert with Jesus, for the bulk of it's efforts.

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited July 09, 2001).]

Edward, thanx a million for sharing all those quotations. What a blessing that you have those study aides so readily available. I too have read Ralph Larson's book - And the Word was made Flesh - what a super book. It certainly settled the matter for me beyond question. That is, Jesus possessed fallen flesh the same as we have, but never gave in to its clamorings, thus He remained undefiled.

Which is why I believe we begin at conversion where Christ began at conception. What the Bible says about born again believers it says about people walking in the Spirit and in the mind of the new man. Gal 5:16. To commit a known moral type of sin we must revert back to the mind of the old man and resurrect our former habits of sin. We commit sin in the mind of the old man - not in the mind of the new man. 1 John 3:9.

The flesh will continue to communicate sinful thoughts and feelings all up until the day Jesus rewards us with sinless flesh when He returns. But until then we must continue to keep our fallen flesh in subjection. 1 Cor 9:27 and Gal 5:24. Which is exactly what Jesus did throughout His life.

Does anyone else understand the Bible this way?

Mike...

what does the following verse mean to you??

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—" (Romans 5:12)

Frenchmon, great text. Gets to the heart of things, doesn't it. Thanx so much for bringing it up.

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—" (Romans 5:12)

First of all, I do not believe this passage means I was guilty before birth based on Adam eating the forbidden fruit. Nor do I believe it means that I was guilty after I was born because of Adam's sin. See Eze 18:20 and Deut 24:16.

Romans 5:19 says that we were "made sinners" because of Adam's transgression. To me this means I was born with the sinful clamorings of fallen flesh, and that before I am born again I naturally do and desire those sinful suggestions. And by reason of my own sins I am guilty before God and condemned by the law. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23.

Romans 5:12, I believe, agrees with this understanding. Sin and death entered the world through the fall of Adam. All inherit his sinful flesh, consequently "all have sinned" (verse 12). Therefore all are guilty until they accept Jesus as their personal Saviour and enter into relationship with Him. See verses 18 and 19.

Is that how you see it?

Hi Mike...this passage of scripture makes a good study.

You wrote:

"I do not believe this passage means I was guilty before birth based on Adam eating the forbidden fruit. Nor do I believe it means that I was guilty after I was born because of Adam's sin. See Eze 18:20 and Deut 24:16."

I asked you this question in order to get you to flesh out your ideas a bit more...and from what I can gather, you make sin a matter of what we do instead of what we where born...sins come form sin...acts of sin come from sinfulness...

I also don't believe this passage means I was guilty before birth, but I do think this passage says I was born with spiritual death...born missing the true scope of what God wants for us, born sinful...in a state of sin, because of Adams state of sin that came upon him the second he acted contrary to God's law...this sin nature or state, was passed on to mankind...Eze 18 and Deut 24 has nothing to do with this...It sounds as if you have understood the arguments of the 1888 MSCG and Jack Seqeuria very well???

You said Rom 5:19)

"...I was born with the sinful clamorings of fallen flesh, and that before I am born again I naturally do and desire those sinful suggestions. And by reason of my own sins I am guilty before God and condemned by the law."

What you have said in a nutshell is that because of Adam's disobedience you have occasion to sin (because of the fallen nature)...and therefore because you sinned, you are guilty before God and His law .

While this is true Mike, you were condemned before you acted ...your way of reasoning says until I act and commit sin, I am not condemned...this is not what the bible teaches...The bible teaches in the same passage we used (Rom 5:12) that we are born condemned before Gods law before we do any acts of sin.

Just as...because of what Christ has done we are made righteous by trusting in Him, therefore Just as what Adam has done we are made unrighteous and condemned...wrath is upon all who are born, even before they act out sins in their lives...Adam gave to all his posterity his fallen state of sin.

Romans 5:19 says:

"For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

It says by one mans disobedience...made sinners....A sinner with out being made righteous by faith, is condemned...not because he did acts of sin, but because he was made a sinner by the disobedience of Adam...Adams state of sin was past on to his posterity...

You wrote:

""For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23."

Yes this is true...but it says nothing of the state of sin.

Rom 5:12

If sin entered the world(all men) through one man then all men are sinners...

If death enterd in because of sin then all are born with a death sentence...

If all sin and death enterd in because of the disobedience of one, then before they act out what is all ready there, they are condemned before God's Holy law...until they trust Christ...

If they are born with the law of sin and death...then they will commit acts of sin...however Adam was our representative to God just as Christ is our representative to God...we sinned in him (not in substance)because he was our representative.

The later point is not why we are condemned...we are condemned because we are born in a state of sin without righteousness.

...--frenchmon

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
When do we experience moral perfection? Before, during or after we're born again? Please use the Bible to support your thoughts and insights. Thank you and God bless.

---

Question to go with your question, Mike. Are you speaking about intrinsic or extrinsic moral perfection, or imputed or imparted?

MHS

Frenchmon & Mike ,

Having read neither 1888 MSCG and Jack Seqeuria, perhaps I make a good control group subject.

I am wondering regarding the sin problem, about both sides of the coin.

(A.). RE: transgression & indwelling individual nature. Lucifer, the third of the holy Angels, and Adam & Eve. They all once had pure, sinless, perfect holy natures. Did they sin by their natures or by their decisions and actions ? By their decisions and actions.

Did their natures keep them pure after they decided to sin ? No their natures that were once holy and pure were defiled, corrupted, and once they were expelled away from God's appointed agency of conditional immortality(the tree of life they were subject to death). Even more than this, now the glory of God would be used at a future time to destroy them, because to sin God is a consuming fire.

Now they had developed sin more fully. (part-1 sin.) Sin is the transgression of the law. What kind of sin is that, the sin of commission or omission . The kind that along with forgiveness(atonement/healing) requires the purging/cleansing of the conscience. That type of sin is shown by loyalty verses treason.

(Part 2. sin) This part is the effect of sin, and the nature of humanity after being corrupted in their humanity by losing God's image as the vital part of their humanity. Then being connected by nature to Satan, by the door opened through their treason to God & loyalty to Satan. Physically they can not come near to the Living God or be destroyed by His physical glory. Mentally and spiritually His personal purity makes them upset, guilty, angry. God provides a remedy at the Second Coming, a holy physical nature is provided to thr redeemed saved people, by the creative power of Jesus. Spiritual victory in Christ does not come because overcomers receive a new physical nature. They partake of the Divine nature. This is a spiritual transforming of the mind, and sympathies, and loyalties. They are born not of the nature of the flesh, they already have that. They are reborn of the water, Spirit, and the Word . While they do not nor ever will have the guilt of sinners who lived before them, they have the deadly effects of sins destructive power biologically active within. When ever they imitate & share in the same kinds of transgressions as the sinners who have lived before them, they have entered into their sins and help fill up the cup of those types of transgressions. This kind of sin is not a matter of guilt of transgression, but a matter of being damaged by sin and unable to survive in Heaven without physical re-creation at the Second Coming. Jesus has to make atonement for these kinds of uncleanness as well as the sins of commission & omission .

(B.). RE: moral victory, righteousness, sinlessness, moral perfection & indwelling individual nature.

Christ took within Himself the physical & mental nature of the seed of Abraham. He did not depend upon those infirmities as an excuse. He now could sin through transgression of the law. He had our physical liabilities . To build a totally victorious human character to impart & impute & mediate for and implant within human sinners, this was His arena & workshop (inside Himself). He could use His Divine power but was forbidden to through necessity of having to walk before the Father with no advantages over us, and open the door for us. So using Divine indwelling power was not an option, instead He had to constantly squelch His naturally occurring omnipotence for our sakes(the difficulty of which we can never appreciate.)

He had to obtain and apply the Father’s power constantly in order to achieve, maintain sinless victory and grow on into perfection. His nature was not what was going to give Him human victory in God . As He lived by the Father so we are to live by Him. There is no original sin, neither is their any holy flesh this side of glorification at the Second Coming. At His ressurection Jesus in His human nature was glorified. In Psalm 22, His thoughts on the cross of Calvary are partially revealed, and notice the plea not to be allowed to rot in the tomb. After His ressurection that was no longer possible. Even with His pre-glorified physical nature, since He is sinless the Father could communicate with Him - even touching Him, without injury to Jesus.

Mike & Frenchmon you are separably holding to only one side of the coin, are both wrong through incompleteness; even though you are both correct in some ways in what you both state. Combine both sides of the coin for a more complete picture.

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Edward F Sutton

Mike, I see you are still flogging the same horse. It appears you still have a problem with accepting the Seventh-day Adventist position on the nature of man and of Christ as presented in the 27 Fundamental Beliefs.

MHS

MHS,
Please post the official position, that it can be compared with the weight of inspiration. How specific is this official position ? Does it agree with the specifics given by inspiration?

You make it sound as if Mike is a lone stranger, with a unique divergent doctrine that has never been given to, or been embraced by the body. What is the situation ? I do not have a history with Mike, I assume you do.

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Edward F Sutton

Brother Sutton....I am willing to listen...I never claim perfection at any level...show me from my postings where I am wrong, if so I will change my views....Also, your view that there is no "original sin" all depends on what your explanation of original sin is...other than that, I agree with your posting...--frenchmon

Mike, by no means, is not a loner to his intepretation. The "official position", just read 27 Fundamental Beliefs I think that would be much simpler than posting the book here.

MHS

quote:

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Originally posted by Edward F Sutton:
MHS,
Please post the official position, that it can be compared with the weight of inspiration. How specific is this official position ? Does it agree with the specifics given by inspiration?

You make it sound as if Mike is a lone stranger, with a unique divergent doctrine that has never been given to, or been embraced by the body. What is the situation ? I do not have a history with Mike, I assume you do.

---

Here we get back to the definition of sin again. If sin is sinning - ie transgression of the law - only, then we are not born sinners. We are born righteous. But we all know there's something wrong with our first birth, or we wouldn't have to be born again. So there must be something about the way we are - right from conception, even - that causes us to be called "sinners", even before we have the opportunity to do bad things. We are not like Adam and Eve, who were made perfect, and then did a bad thing. We are the opposite. We are born imperfect, and it is impossible to do good things without supernatural power outside of ourselves. What they did destroyed our capacity to do good works until and unless we become and remain connected to the Creator. When works are focussed on as the telling point in whether we are sinners or not, we are on a works trip just as surely as when we say we are saved by keeping the commandments. Guilt and condemnation are other subjects, and come into play when we have knowledge. But we ARE born sinful, even though we may not be held accountable. It is in our genes to disobey.
Frenchmon, I agree with what you are saying. There are not two sides to the coin of being born sinners. We are.

To me, “moral perfection” is God’s business; something He says He does for and in man. It is what God does in the submissive, surrendered believer. Since man is “thoroughly sinful” I believe he will never have a “perfect” understanding of “moral perfection”. Because of this condition “moral perfection” will need to be done for him. Not only that, how will you know you have arrived at “moral perfection” particularly when we are told ”The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes;…” SC 64 Also note “moral perfection” is not equated with the absence of sin, i.e., law keeping, it is instead Christ abiding in the heart by faith. Only Jesus, the Divine/Human suppliant, is “morally perfect”. Therefore, only through His gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit comes imputed and imparted righteousness, “moral perfection”.

Take a look at the following texts: (I have limited myself to those texts in the New Testament that speaks of God’s work for and in mankind. The texts have been recorded in the order they appear in the Bible to make it convenient to look them up.)

Matt 1:21; 19:26; John 1:12, 13, 29; 4:14; 6:63; 14:26; 15:1-5; 17:17; Acts 13:38, 39; Rom. 1:16, 17; 3:20-28; 4:21; 5:1, 2, 5-10; 6:22, 23; 8:11, 14; 10:3; 1 Cor. 1:30,31; 3:16; 6:11; 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 3:18; 4:6, 7; 5:17-21; 6:16; 12:9; Gal. 2:16-21; Eph. 2:8-10, 21, 22; 3:14-21; 4:11-13; 5:26; Phil 1:6, 11, 21; 2:13; 3:7-10; Col. 1:12-14, 27; 2:6-10; 1 Thes. 3:13; 5:23, 24; 2 Thes. 2:13; 3:3-5; 2 Tim. 1:9, 12-14; Titus 2:11-14; 3:3-7; Heb. 7:25; 10:14-17; 13:20, 21; James 1:17, 18; 1 Peter 1:23; 5:10; 1 John 1:7-10; Jude 24.

The following quotes are from Desire of Ages and I believe they speak for themselves:

The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Rom. 3:26. DA 762

…The word of God, received into the soul, molds the thoughts, and enters into the development of character.
By looking constantly to Jesus with the eye of faith, we shall be strengthened. God will make the most precious revelations to His hungering, thirsting people. They will find that Christ is a personal Saviour. As they feed upon His word, they find that it is spirit and life. The word destroys the natural, earthly nature, and imparts a new life in Christ Jesus. The Holy Spirit comes to the soul as a Comforter. By the transforming agency of His grace, the image of God is reproduced in the disciple; he becomes a new creature. Love takes the place of hatred, and the heart receives the divine similitude. This is what it means to live "by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." This is eating the Bread that comes down from heaven. DA 391

"Herein is My Father glorified," said Jesus, "that ye bear much fruit." God desires to manifest through you the holiness, the benevolence, the compassion, of His own character. Yet the Saviour does not bid the disciples labor to bear fruit. He tells them to abide in Him. "If ye abide in Me," He says, "and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." It is through the word that Christ abides in His followers. This is the same vital union that is represented by eating His flesh and drinking His blood. The words of Christ are spirit and life. Receiving them, you receive the life of the Vine. You live "by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matt. 4:4. The life of Christ in you produces the same fruits as in Him. Living in Christ, adhering to Christ, supported by Christ, drawing nourishment from Christ, you bear fruit after the similitude of Christ. DA 677

The following are quotes also from SOP. Over the years I have collected statements that I have titled ONLY-NONE-ALONE. Only, none, alone are exclusive statements and must be understood as such. If it says only Jesus can do something—then I believe that only Jesus can do it. I think that is simple enough.

He who seeks to quench his thirst at the fountains of this world will drink only to thirst again. Everywhere men are unsatisfied. They long for something to supply the need of the soul. Only One can meet that want. The need of the world, "The Desire of all nations," is Christ. The divine grace which He alone can impart, is as living water, purifying, refreshing, and invigorating the soul. DA187

None but Christ can fashion anew the character that has been ruined by sin. He came to expel the demons that had controlled the will. He came to lift us up from the dust, to reshape the marred character after the pattern of His divine character, and to make it beautiful with His own glory. DA38

None but the Son of God could accomplish our redemption; for only He who was in the bosom of the Father could declare Him. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it manifest. Nothing less than the infinite sacrifice made by Christ in behalf of fallen man could express the Father's love to lost humanity. SC14

The only hope of redemption for our fallen race is in Christ. DA147

No man can of himself cast out the evil throng that have taken possession of the heart. Only Christ can cleanse the soul temple. DA161

The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. DA172

Through the same faith we may receive spiritual healing. By sin we have been severed from the life of God. Our souls are palsied. Of ourselves we are no more capable of living a holy life than was the impotent man capable of walking. DA203

Sinful men can become righteous only as they have faith in God and maintain a vital connection with Him. DA310

The only defense against evil is the indwelling of Christ in the heart through faith in His righteousness. DA324

All are weighed down with burdens that only Christ can remove. The heaviest burden that we bear is the burden of sin. If we were left to bear this burden, it would crush us. DA328-329

The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour; which appropriates His merits to ourselves. DA347

Yet all our infirmity and defilement we must bring to Him. He alone can wash us clean. DA649

Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead. DA671

The life you have received from Me (Jesus) can be preserved only by continual communion. Without Me you cannot overcome one sin, or resist one temptation. DA676

The Holy Spirit is the breath of spiritual life in the soul. The impartation of the Spirit is the impartation of the life of Christ. It imbues the receiver with the attributes of Christ. Only those who are thus taught of God, those who possess the inward working of the Spirit, and in whose life the Christ-life is manifested, are to stand as representative men, to minister in behalf of the church. DA805

But man cannot transform himself by the exercise of his will. He possesses no power by which this change can be effected. The leaven--something wholly from without--must be put into the meal before the desired change can be wrought in it. So the grace of God must be received by the sinner before he can be fitted for the kingdom of glory. All the culture and education which the world can give will fail of making a degraded child of sin a child of heaven. The renewing energy must come from God. The change can be made only by the Holy Spirit. All who would be saved, high or low, rich or poor, must submit to the working of this power. COL 96-97

"Ye cannot serve the Lord," said Joshua: "for He is a holy God; . . . He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins." Before there could be any permanent reformation the people must be led to feel their utter inability in themselves to render obedience to God. They had broken His law, it condemned them as transgressors, and it provided no way of escape. While they trusted in their own strength and righteousness, it was impossible for them to secure the pardon of their sins; they could not meet the claims of God's perfect law, and it was in vain that they pledged themselves to serve God. It was only by faith in Christ that they could secure pardon of sin and receive strength to obey God's law. They must cease to rely upon their own efforts for salvation, they must trust wholly in the merits of the promised Saviour, if they would be accepted of God. PP 524
By nature the heart is evil, and "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4. No human invention can find a remedy for the sinning soul. The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit.

It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world's Redeemer. It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given His Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress His own character upon His church.

Like the wind, which is invisible, yet the effects of which are plainly seen and felt, is the Spirit of God in its work upon the human heart. That regenerating power, which no human eye can see, begets a new life in the soul; it creates a new being in the image of God.

The thoughtless and wayward become serious. The hardened repent of their sins, and the faithless believe. The gambler, the drunkard, the licentious, become steady, sober, and pure. The rebellious and obstinate become meek and Christlike. When we see these changes in the character, we may be assured that the converting power of God has transformed the entire man.

He who looks to Christ in simple, childlike faith is made a partaker of the divine nature through the agency of the Holy Spirit. The Faith I Live By, 55

In conclusion, to what I have posted, may I be so bold as to suggest we study Jesus rather than trying to determine the exact, precise moment man becomes “morally perfect”. In fact, in God’s eyes, through the atoning work of our Elder Brother, through faith, we always are and will be as we abide in Him until He comes.

My prayer, therefore, is that we will abide in Christ so that living in Christ, adhering to Christ, supported by Christ, drawing nourishment from Christ, we will bear fruit after the similitude of Christ for against such there is no law.

Yours in the Blessed Hope,
MHS

I will make one additional posting from Acts of the Apostles, Pages 560-562

"Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience.

None of the apostles and prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, but have trusted wholly in the righteousness of Christ.

So will it be with all who behold Christ. The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14.

Let the recording angels write the history of the holy struggles and conflicts of the people of God; let them record their prayers and tears; but let not God be dishonored by the declaration from human lips, "I am sinless; I am holy." Sanctified lips will never give utterance to such presumptuous words.

The apostle Paul had been caught up to the third heaven and had seen and heard things that could not be uttered, and yet his unassuming statement is: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after." Philippians 3:12. Let the angels of heaven write of Paul's victories in fighting the good fight of faith. Let heaven rejoice in his steadfast tread heavenward, and that, keeping the prize in view, he counts every other consideration dross. Angels rejoice to tell his triumphs, but Paul makes no boast of his attainments. The attitude of Paul is the attitude that every follower of Christ should take as he urges his way onward in the strife for the immortal crown.

Let those who feel inclined to make a high profession of holiness look into the mirror of God's law. As they see its far-reaching claims, and understand its work as a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, they will not boast of sinlessness. "If we," says John, not separating himself from his brethren, "say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8, 10, 9."

Yours in the Blessed Hope,
Mogens

Thank you, Mogens. What an excellent collection of SOP statements. At this time, I believe sanctification is a process, or a way of life. I don't believe it is a destination. I do believe it is a requirement of salvation, but it is motivated, instigated and achieved by a Power outside of ourselves. We maintain the connection with God, and obey the promptings of the Spirit, and God enables.
AND SOMETIMES WE GET IT WRONG. Growth comes as we learn to recognise the Lord's voice, and learn how to constantly remain with Him in all our thoughts and activities.
Any other thoughts?

I read this today, and think it might be relevant:

"
Men whom God favored, and to whom He entrusted great
responsibilities, were sometimes overcome by temptation and
committed sin, even as we at the present day strive, waver, and
frequently fall into error. Their lives, with all their faults
and follies, are open before us, both for our encouragement and
warning. If they had been represented as without fault, we, with
our sinful nature, might despair at our own mistakes and
failures. But seeing where others struggled through
discouragements like our own, where they fell under temptation
as we have done, and yet took heart again and conquered through
the grace of God, we are encouraged in our striving after
righteousness. As they, though sometimes beaten back, recovered
their ground, and were blessed of God, so we too may be
overcomers in the strength of Jesus.

The life of Christ's disciples is to be like His, a series of
uninterrupted victories, not seen to be such here, but
recognized as such in the great hereafter."

From God's Amazing Grace

I didn't realize this site was still active. Sorry about that. After reading the past posts I get the feeling some of you are having a hard time appreciating my thoughts on moral perfection. Perhaps I should summarize my thoughts at this point.

1. Moral perfection, which is the same thing as the mind of the new man, is a gift we receive the moment we crucify our old man habits of sin.

2. It's a gift we receive, not something we achieve over a lifetime of sinning and repenting.

3. We are born again morally complete or perfect. We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception.

4. The gift of the new man comes complete with all the holy attributes of God and with all the fruit of the Spirit.

5. We are not born again morally mature. We begin as babes in Christ. As we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man we grow in grace and mature morally.

6. There is no such thing as an unknown moral defect of character for a Spirit-filled, Bible-believing Christian. No truly born again believer can unwittingly be impatient, rude, unfair, etc., without realizing it.

7. No truly converted Christian will boast of sinlessness. His eyes are on Jesus and not self.

8. The closer we come to Jesus the more fully we realize the hideous nature of sin does not mean that we are guilty of unknown moral defects of character.

Would anybody like to address these points? Do you agree or disagree? And why?

Please, don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I am NOT saying that a born again believer cannot choose to sin against God once he has been converted.

But I am definitely saying that a converted Christian who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man "doth not" and "cannot" knowingly sin against God - so long as he is in the Spirit. See Gal 5:16 and 1 John 3:9.

In order to sin, however, a born again believer must resurrect the mind of the old man, because sin happens in the mind of the old man and not in the mind of the new man. And we always have the option available to us to revert back to the mind of the old man.

The growth we experience while walking in the mind of the new man doesn't have anything to do with sin or moral defects of character (all that was taken care of when we crucified the old man before we received the gift of the sinless seed of the mind of the new man).

So long as we remain in the Spirit and mind of the new man, after we're born again, the growth we experience has to do with maturing in the fruit of the Spirit, just like Jesus' growth from childhood to manhood. Just as His development did not involve sin, so it is with those who have the mind of the new man and walk therein.

Of course we will have to maintain a constant warfare against the clamorings of our sinful flesh nature, but these unholy desires (communicated as conscious thoughts and feelings) do not represent unknown or hitherto unconquered moral defects of character.

All our moral defects of character were crucified before we experienced rebirth and received the sinless seed of the new man mind. Thus, the growth we enjoy after we've been born again, and are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, involves maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. It's no different than Jesus' experience as He grew in grace and matured in the fruit of the Spirit.

Does this make sense to anyone else besides myself?

That which Paul calls the "law of sin" in Romans is here called the "stony heart." In Romans chapter seven it is pictured as dwelling in the flesh, while here the promise is that it will be evicted from the flesh. It will be taken out of and away from. When it is taken out of and away from, the flesh is still there, for the flesh itself is not taken out of and away from him, but something is taken out of and away from the flesh. This must make it very clear that there are the three entities. There is the mind, there is the flesh, and there is the law of sin or the stony heart which dwells in the flesh and rules over it according to its will and against the will of the mind.
In Romans 8:7, this same third entity is referred to as the carnal mind in these words: "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
This text is probably one of the strongest proofs that there is this third entity in the individual. Consider very carefully what is said in this verse which cannot in turn apply to the fleshly or the human nature. In the first instance, while it is entirely possible for the sinful, fallen flesh of man to be an instrument of righteousness by being subject to the law of God, it is impossible for the carnal mind to do this.
The carnal mind is not merely at enmity against God. It is enmity. Its very constitution, its very nature, that which it is, is in itself enmity against God. If it were merely at enmity then it could be reconciled to God, but when it is itself the enmity, then it can never be reconciled to God, it can never be subject to the law of God. This is an impossibility.
But the flesh can. In fact, in Romans6:13, Paul calls upon the converted person to yield "your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."
So, we have one nature or power in the human being which is at enmity and cannot serve God, and we have another power, namely, the flesh, which can. Therefore, they cannot be one and the same thing. They must be two different things, for the one thing could not be in a position where it was impossible to serve the law, and at the same time be yielded as instruments of service to the law. This is impossible.
The carnal mind is the law of sin, the stony heart and the power of sin which rules in the life of the individual against the will of the mind. It is not that the flesh is the master of the mind. Rather, the flesh is subject to another power which it finds itself forced to obey whilever that power remains in control.
Paul sums the whole problem up very beautifully in the closing verse of Romans seven when he says, "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." Thus it is clear that there are two masters working in the life of the man of Romans seven. One is the great Master of all truth to which the mind is devoted in service, the other is the law of sin to which the flesh is enslaved. Thus the mind and the flesh are in service to two different powers, and it is for this reason that the flesh does not do that which the mind directs it to do. It is in subjection to another master, despotic and in deadly enmity to the law of God.
We have now come to the heart of the problem of which what we do is but the fruit. It is exactly as Jesus says: "For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of his heart the mouth speaketh." Luke 6:43-45.
Here, Christ's reference is to a law of nature which has never been broken and with which even a child is familiar. It is an utterly reliable principle. It is that if you wish to have good fruit you must first of all have good trees. Then, having referred the mind to the familiar and long-proven principle as it is revealed in nature, the Saviour declares that as it is in nature so it is in the spiritual world. The same principle is to be found there. Therefore, if we wish to have a life filled with good deeds, then first of all we must be good people.
But no one can be a good person while he still has the carnal mind or the stony heart. To have that evil nature and power within us is to be an evil person, and as such to bring forth evil and not good fruit.
This, then, is the problem. It is not the mind for it is converted to the service of God and to the truths of the Word of God. It is not the fleshly human nature, for it is in bondage to another power, even the power of the law of- sin which is resident in the members and controls them against the will.
This is not to say that the mind and the flesh cannot be a problem. They can, but they are not the problem once the person has been brought to the Romans seven experience. He has come there because he has seen the beauty of the truth and is converted to it. His flesh is not the problem for it is in bondage to another power, so that until it is delivered from that power it cannot possibly escape from the dominion of sin and do that which the mind directs it to do.
The law of sin in the members is the problem. It is the root, the basic cause, the underlying source of the trouble. If it is the problem, then obviously it is here that the solution must be applied.

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Isaiah 35:4 Say to them of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God...

What did he say? Ha! Ikan, let me see if I understood what you just wrote. I thought I heard you say our fallen flesh nature is incurably sinful, but that the mind of the new man is devoted to serving God. And that we can use our "members" or body to glorify God inspite of the sinful propensities of our fallen flesh nature. And that these are three entities - 1) fallen flesh nature, 2) new man mind, and our 3) body.

By the way, did you intend to post your thoughts here or in the Romans 7 thread? If here, then how do your thoughts apply to the question of moral perfection? I hope I don't sound too confused.

1. What is perfection?

2. What is moral perfection?

3. Is moral perfection imputed (forensic, judicial) or imparted (intrinsic, experiential)?

4. Is moral perfection a gift we receive the moment we're born again, or something we achieve after years of sinning and repenting?

5. Can a genuinely born again Christian, a Bible-believing, Spirit-filled person, someone who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, unwittingly commit a moral sin without realizing it?

6. Which of the moral sins listed in Rom 1:18-32, Gal 5:19-21 and 2 Tim 3:1-7 is a sin which a born again believer can commit without realizing it?

7. When is Rom 6:1-23; Gal 5:16; 1 Peter 4:1,2; 2 Peter 1:3-10 and 1 John 3:9 a reality in the life of a Christian?

Mike,

I have many opinions, but unfortunatly they are not words of creation that setup and order reality. they are just opinions.

I will take my own medicine & put deuteronomy 29:29 to use.

I will systematically attempt to locate Inspiration's answers to the questions. However if i find that the question might need rewording I will rephrase it & go from there ?

Do you have specific reasons for these specific questions ? E-mail me & let me know, it might have a bearing upon the questions themselves .

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Edward F Sutton

Edward,

Just trying to be thorough in our approach to this study since it seems that most people who have been posting in this and similar threads are not comfortable with the ideas I've been suggesting on moral perfection and conversion.

Many Bible and EGW quotes have been shared, but very little has been said along the lines of what they mean to us personally in light of the study question. Without personal commentary each person seems to assume the quotations support their unstated understanding of the subject.

All this has left a void, at least from my perpective, in the overall study format. It would be helpful to me if each person could take the time to share what they think the quotations mean, rather than assuming it is obvious.

So, that's what I'm getting at with the specific questions. Hopefully we can come to a place in this thread what inspiration would have us believe about moral perfection and related topics.

My response to this question is found under my thread entitled "The Day of Atonement--Wonderful News." The answer is found in the sanctuary and it is indeed wonderful news!

" Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he ADVANCES TOWARD PERFECTION, HE EXPERIENCES A CONVERSION TO GOD EVERY DAY;
and THIS CONVERSION IS NOT COMPLETED UNTIL HE ATTAINS TO PERFECTION OF CHRISTIAN CHARACTER, a full preparation for the
finishing touch of immortality. . . . "

This says to me that my conversion is as real while I am imperfect, but it's a work in progress as opposed to a completed work. If I die before I attain perfection, while converted to god for that day, am I saved? Or must I have attained in order to receive immortality?

Or does Christ's sacrifice suffice where I have not attained?

The wonderful thing about the gospel is the fact that no matter where you are in your upward climb towards heaven, if you have your sins confessed and have a close relationship with Jesus you are saved should you die--just like the thief on the cross.

Jean, you mentioned the sanctuary and that it explains this matter nicely. And I agree. But I have found that many of the people who participate in this forum are not sure about the relationship between righteousness by faith and the sanctuary. They don't seem to see a clear connection.

Zyph, the quote you shared says that we advance daily in the "divine life." From what you said about this quote I got the impresson that you think advancement in the "divine life" means gradually overcoming our imperfections or defects of character. Is that what you meant?

I'm not sure that advancement in the "divine life" can be interpreted to mean sinning less and less until we finally sin no more. That sounds like evolution to me. Could it be that Jesus demonstrated what it means to advance in the "divine life" as He matured from childhood to manhood?

If so, then I would be inclined to believe advancement in the "divine life" means growing in grace, maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. Rather than becoming less and less imperfect over the course of a lifetime.

Would you agree with that? And please forgive me if I misunderstood what you meant.

Mike, the next sentence says, "As he ADVANCES TOWARD PERFECTION, HE EXPERIENCES A CONVERSION TO GOD EVERY DAY;
and THIS CONVERSION IS NOT COMPLETED UNTIL HE ATTAINS TO PERFECTION OF CHRISTIAN CHARACTER". Therefore the quote is about travelling from imperfection of christian character to perfection of christian character. Surely if we haven't attained a state of perfection, there is something wrong and still needing to be fixed?

Mike Lowe.

I think my answer to your questions are:

1. I don’t have my dictionary with me.

2. Morally perfect, spotless behavior, a state of sinless perfection.

3. Imparted.

4. The latter.

5. Yes!

6. The most probable I think are idolatry, jealousy, selfish ambition.

7. When they thrust God and gave themselves to Him and led by His Spirit.

The question is can we have this moral perfected character in this sinful body?

In His love

James S.

I read this today:
" To renounce their own will, perhaps their chosen object of
affection or pursuit, requires an effort, at which many hesitate
and falter and turn back. Yet this battle must be fought by
every heart that is truly converted. We must war against
temptations without and within. We must gain the victory over
self, crucify the affections and lusts;

** and then begins the
union of the soul with Christ. . . . **" (Sorry - I cut and pasted, then deleted the original, so I don't have the reference.)

It looks like only after we get good, are we regarded as being converted, so you're right, Mike. But if only converted people are saved, why is there all this reassurance that we are regarded as perfect even if we haven't arrived at perfection? Isn't it a lie to say we are saved when we aren't converted? And where are the weak people supposed to find strength if they can't unite their souls with Christ until after they're perfect? It's very discouraging. And God doesn't hear the prayers of sinners. What are we supposed to do?

Zyph, you ask an extremely important question. Which is great. It means you are willing to let truth be truth, and that you truly seek to understand it. Too often we try to force truth to agree with our view of it, instead of changing our view to agree with the truth.

As I understand it, moral perfection is a gift we receive the moment we completely surrrender ourselves to Jesus. Depending on the person it might take many months to many years to make this commitment. Many never do.

Once we come to the place where we would rather die than to knowingly cling to some pet sin we receive the gift of moral perfection. It's not something we work at until we finally get it right. It's a free gift, as free as salvation itself.

Since it is a free gift it in no way depends on our ability to achieve it. It has nothing to with our individual weaknesses or former imperfections. Being perfect has nothing to do with who we were before we received it as a gift. We don't achieve moral perfection, rather we receive it as a free gift.

Although we are born again morally perfect we not born again morally mature. We are babes in Christ. We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception. And just as Jesus matured from childhood to manhood, so to we must grow in grace, maturing in the fruit of the Spirit.

As long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we are just as morally perfect as was Jesus. All of the promises of perfection are true of the new man. As long as we are in the mind of the new man we are experiencing the gift of moral perfection.

But should we resurrect the mind of the old man and revert back to sin we are no longer experiencing the promises of moral perfection. At this point, we must accept the gift of repentance which empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, which in turn gives Jesus the legal right to pardon us and to restore us back to the mind of the new man.

The mind of the new man does not die every time we revert back to the mind of the old man. As long as we quickly return to the new man mind very little is lost. We pick back up right where we left off. We are not reconverted everytime we bounce back and forth between the new and old man mind.

Conversion happens when we receive the sinless mind of the new man. This conversion deepens as we mature in the fruit of the Spirit, but we are not literally converted anew every day. When Ellen White says we must be converted every day, I take it to mean we must maintain our conversion every day. Which is similar to Paul's - "I die daily."

We do not mature evenly across the board. Each person is different. One might mature more rapidly in this gift, and another in that. But all of us when we are converted receive all the fruit of the Spirit. It's just that some mature faster than others.

Again, we are not born again morally mature. Yes, we are born again morally perfect, that is, morally complete, which is to say we possess all the fruit of the Spirit at the moment we receive the sinless seed of the new man. From that moment on we must grow and mature in same manner Jesus did.

We may find ourselves in and out of the old man, back and forth between sin and righteousness, but this doesn't prove us unconverted. People who have never been born again do not have the option of bouncing between the new and old man because they haven't ever received the gift of the new man mind.

Christians who struggle with wondering if they have ever been born again need only ask themselves - Am I clinging to any known moral defect of character? Am I making excuses for my failures, or am I claiming the promises of God? Am I consumed with my failures, or am I keeping my eyes on Jesus?

If a person can answer these kinds of questions in harmony with the Word of God, then they have every right to claim 1 John 5:13. Walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man means keeping our eyes on Jesus while claiming the promises of God. So long as we do this we are morally perfect in the fullest sense of the promise.

What do you think?

If it's not our behaviour which matures and improves, what grows? If we are already perfect, what more needs to be done?

"The sum and substance of the whole matter of Christian grace
and experience is contained in believing on Christ, in knowing
God and His Son whom He has sent."

And how do statements like this not contradict other statements saying we must grit our teeth and work at changing our behaviour?

"begins the union of the soul with Christ" ( 5 spots found)
{FLB 135.5};{AG 321.5};{LHU 340.4};{5T 47.1};{PH117 21.3}

Here's a new spin to add to the discussion.

"How few bear in mind that the tempter was once a covering cherub, a being whom God created for His own name's glory. Satan fell from his high position through self-exaltation; he misused the high capabilities with which God had so richly endowed him. He fell for the same reason that thousands are falling today, because of an ambition to be first, an unwillingness to be under restraint. The Lord would teach man the lesson that, though united in church capacity, he is not saved until the seal of God is placed upon him. . . . {7BC 969.3}

The Lord has a work for us all to do. And if the truth is not rooted in the heart, if the natural traits of character are not transformed by the Holy Spirit, we can never be colaborers with Jesus Christ. Self will constantly appear, and the character of Christ will not be manifested in our lives." (Letter 80, 1898). {7BC 969.4}& {11MR 367.2}

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Edward F Sutton

Edward, thanx for those awesome quotes. It's truly amazing what befell Satan, and what befalls us if we are not constantly connected to Jesus, our sweet Saviour.

Zyph, you ask another good question. As I see it, there is a growth in behaviour after we have crucified our old man life of sin and have been born again. But post-conversion growth does not involve becoming less and less sinful. Rather we imitate the example of Jesus as He grew in grace and matured in the fruit of the Spirit.

The only time we deal with sin after we have been born again is when we slip back into the mind of the old man and sin. But slipping in and out of the mind of the old is not part of our growth process. That is, growth in grace doesn't involve gradually overcoming sinful traits of character by sinning and repenting less and less often until someday in future we finally cease to sin.

We are growing in grace and maturing in the fruit of the Spirit (i.e., experiencing changes in our behaviour from "glory to glory" rather than from less sin to less sin) so long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. When we are in the Spirit and mind of the new man we are following in the example of Jesus as He grew from childhood to manhood.

The change in behaviour we experience has to do with maturing in the fruit of the Spirit - becoming more and more loving, kind, patient, etc., - like a light that shines brighter and brighter until the glorious return of Jesus. See Prov 4:18. We start off like candle light. Our goal is to shine like sunlight. Fortunately eternity isn't long enough to exhaust opportunities to grow more and more like our lovely Jesus, to shine brighter for Him each day.

This growth I'm talking about has nothing to do with sin and has everything to do with imitating Jesus' example of growth and development. This growth is not measured in terms of sinfulness, but in depth and degree of righteousness. Just as there are levels of sin so there are levels of righteousness. Just as Jesus' level of righteousness is more mature and more developed than our Spirit empowered experience, so to sunlight is brighter than candle light. Both, however, are forms of light.

For example, Jesus' capacity to experience joy and sadness can be compared to the difference between sunlight and candle light as it relates to our capacity to experience joy and sadness. This difference, however, is not measured in terms of sinfulness, but rather in depth and degree of righteousness. And as we grow more and more like Jesus our capacity to experience the fruit of the Spirit increases proportionately.

This growth and maturation is only possible during those times we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. If and when we slip back into the mind of the old man we are not at that moment in time and space experiencing imitating the example of Jesus. We resume growing in grace like Jesus did when God restores us back to the mind of the new man.

Does that make sense?

If we die before we have overcome all sin, in spite of the fact that we have decided to follow God, are we saved? I'd like a definitive text. Also, if God doesn't hear prayer unless we're perfect, how can we possibly enlist His aid? I still don't understand how we can wash the inside of the cup without His total control.

As I understand it, whether or not we are saved after we die, that is, if we will be part of the first resurrection, depends on what our attitude toward sin was at the time of our death. If we are clinging to some pet defect of character and refusing to give it up for Jesus then we are in a lost state of mind. See Heb 6:4-6 and 10:26,27.

But if it is in our heart, our deepest desire, to be delivered from all our defects of character, if we are unwilling to retain anything that separates us from Jesus, then we are in a saved state of mind. See 1 John 1:9 and 2:1,2.

Can we be in a saved state of mind and still be a victim of unconquered defects of character? In other words, can we practice known vices while at the same time wishing we weren't and also be in a saved state of mind? This a tuff question, and the answer may seem even harder. Here's what Sister wrote about it:

"Desires for goodness and holiness are right as far as they go; but if you stop here, they will avail nothing. Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians. They do not come to the point of yielding the will to God. They do not now choose to be Christians." SC 47,48.

Apparently victory over sin is available to those who are willing to surrender all to Jesus, to choose to follow Him. The inability to live without sin is a sign that that person has not surrendered all to Jesus, and is not choosing to allow the Holy Spirit to empower them to "go and sin no more." We must not rob ourselves of the power of God by making up excuses for our shortcomings. Excusing sin is a sin. We must rely upon the promises of God and not the excuses of man.

If human weakness was an excuse for not living without sin then everything the Bible promises is a lie. The truth is, victory is not something we "achieve" through long stern battles with self. Rather, victory is something we "receive" as a gift from God when we surrender ourselves to the influence and power of the Holy Spirit.

The battle against self is fought by keeping our eyes on Jesus and not by trying to avoid sin. If our focus is not to sin then not sinning is our God. But if our focus is Jesus then our God is Jesus. And we will not sin due to the abiding presence of God's Spirit in our hearts and minds.

Is that how you see it?

"Selected Messages Book 1, page 343, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: Christ Our High Priest
Let no one take the limited, narrow position that any of the works of man can help in the least possible way to liquidate the debt of his transgression. This is a fatal deception. If you would understand it, you must cease haggling over your pet ideas, and with humble hearts survey the atonement. This matter is so dimly comprehended that thousands upon thousands claiming to be sons of God are children of the wicked one, because they will depend on their own works. God always demanded good works, the law demands it, but because man placed himself in sin where his good works were valueless, Jesus' righteousness alone can avail. Christ is able to save to the uttermost because He ever liveth to make intercession for us.

**All that man can possibly do toward his own salvation is to accept the invitation, "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17).**

No sin can be committed by man for which satisfaction has not been met on Calvary. Thus the cross, in earnest appeals, continually proffers to the sinner a thorough expiation."

Does this mean that even converted people - who are sinners, after all - also have access to a thorough expiation?

Personally, I believe thorough and complete expiation (forensically and intrinsically) is available to everyone the exact moment they experience the miracle of rebirth and begin in the Spirit walking in the mind of the new man.

What about you?

PULLING PIGWEEDS

RH.1892-07-26.004
Those who sincerely desire truth will not be reluctant to lay open their positions for investigation and criticism, and will not be annoyed if their opinions and ideas are crossed. This was the spirit cherished among us forty years ago. We would come together burdened in soul, praying that we might be one in faith and doctrine; for we knew that Christ is not divided. One point at a time was made the subject of investigation.

Quote by Mike, page one (I think), "the death of Jesus did not eliminate our sinful flesh nature. But it does empower us to crucify our sinful character - the old man.

Mike

I have just finished reading through all three pages of this thread. I have found all of the comments interesting.

The above quote seems to be jumping out at me, in the midst of it all. I want to ask a few questions, plus comment, if I may?

1) How can we crucify our self? Crucifixion requires that someone else drives in the nails. We could never do it on our own.???
2) Is your above quote referring to “justification,” or to “sanctification,” as it relates to “crucify our sinful character?
3) What would be the noticeable difference between a person having one or the other above understanding (1&2) of “crucify our sinful character?”
4) How would “crucify our sinful character,” be related to Galatians 5:16?

“But I say, walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.”

“Flesh” meaning “ human nature, the earthly, mortal nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God .”

What is the only thing that can possibly oppose these desires of “the flesh?”

I am going to briefly, but very personally share what your quote, and Galations 5:16 means to me…there is already lots of “theology,” here, but what I have in mind may be termed as sagacious contemplation, complete with anecdotal “evidence,” of this Bible subject, moral perfection.

When I was a kid, we grew up really poor – 10 kids in a two bedroom house. As soon as we were old enough, we had to go out every day and weed the garden. So far, this sounds OK – except for the fact that the “garden,” was 9 acres. We had no equipment but hand tools. You would be surprised at how well we did! In fact, one time, I caught two wild rabbits in the carrot patch! I enjoyed them as pets for some time – but for the most part, this was such a miserable job – especially in the humid climate of Southern Ontario, at the time. One thing that grew really well, compared to other foods, was something called “Pig Weeds.” Atleast, that’s what we called them. Time after time after time, we would growl about those infernal pig weeds – they were the toughest to get out of all the others. But, being the human roto tiller I was back then – we did keep ahead of them, somehow.

The absolute worst case scenario, which we could never do anything about, was when it rained. I remember many times, standing over the field, looking proudly at the weedless patch I had just accomplished…when suddenly, the sky would cloud over, and rain would begin to pour. We would jump for joy because NO MORE WEEDING!

The tragedy would always hit home the next morning…running out to the garden to pick some of the food – I would see all these hundreds of little, new pig weeds popping up from the refreshing of the rain – in just one night they appeared! Like majik! How my heart would drop, as I contemplated the now even bigger task before me…”How do those things appear so fast!!!” I kept saying…

I managed to escape the weed patch, by getting into the rock & roll lifestyle and leaving home….no more pigweeds for years!

But one, really lonely day; I turned to God in desperation, seeking some sense of belonging; and meaning in my life…I had no one to really love or that would love me…I only had friends, if I had money for booze and drugs.

It so happened that the person who introduced me to Jesus was a Seventh Day Adventist dentist. So that is the church I had been baptized in, as I initially gave my heart to Jesus….But you know…I find myself in another 9 acre garden…the garden of “justification and sanctification,” and being perfect “even as our Father in heaven is perfect.”

At first, church was really a novelty…Wow! Friends! People to hang around with, without partying! But soon, a dilema developed in the church garden. I began to notice that my sins were like the pigweeds…As soon as I got rid of one – several more would spring up to take it’s place. I only had friends if I puled enough of the right "pigweeds." But the worst of it was whenever I didn’t pick one of the pigweeds fast enough – before someone else in the church found it too; well – it was goodbye to that friend. I remember one time how one of my new “friends” even nailed a page of SOP to my front door one sabbath evening while I was at a prayer meeting. It was about “proper dress at church”…He didn’t like my bright red pants that I wore..

A new pigweed had just sprung up…in my beautiful church garden…How would the person ever know that those red pants were the very best outfit that I owned, and that I wore them, because I had read what Ellen White said about proper dress at church - how we need to have one special “suit” to wear on Sabbath.

It has been one pig weed after the next, church members “faithfully” and diligently pointing out the ones I should pick right away..and this old boy is tired of picking them…I can’t keep up! Can you Mike? Sometimes, it’s like I am cornered in my own church…too many pig weeds..they are choking out the fruits of the spirit…and I believe that it is because there is such gross misunderstanding about this subject of “When Do We Become Perfect?

I have to say that I really love Jesus..I think of Him just now…approaching the Garden of Gesthemane…I watched a movie about Jesus tonight with my wife and children when it came to this Garden scene; I have to admit – there were tears in the eye; and felt an impulse to hide it; (I am a ‘tough guy,’ and I don’t cry), but when I saw Him, in His poignant sufferings – it brings up such strong thoughts and feelings…the Son of God – agonizing struggle and gruelling torture; so loving – but so intensely hated. He cared so much and loved us so much – can you picture what Jesus went through in His Garden? The last weed that He had to pull, was the final accusations of Satan; and it was in this Garden of toil that Jesus won the battle…

I am playing a song “I Come To The Garden Alone,” as I write – it tells me that I need to come to the Garden of prayer in my heart; and worry about the “pigweeds” only while I am in this Garden , and that my garden, including the pig weeds, is holy ground – because Jesus is present, as He was in His Gesthemane. (Heb.13:5). And it is going into this garden – my Gesthemane – where I take these pigweeds – and exchange them for fruits of the Spirit, that provides me with a positive church experience. I can go with a clear conscience, which enables me to find someone else to bless and strengthen in their Christian walk, because I have been strengthened, and no matter how many times I go to the garden alone, I can come out saying: “I love the Lord because He has heard my voice.” (Ps.116:1). “…I was brought low, and he helped me. (vs.6). According to Rev.12:11, this is how we overcome the “pigweeds!”

I wish to comment on another quote by you Mike:

Quote by Mike, page three: “Christians who struggle with wondering if they have ever been born again need only ask themselves - Am I clinging to any known moral defect of character? Am I making excuses for my failures, or am I claiming the promises of God? Am I consumed with my failures, or am I keeping my eyes on Jesus?”

There is a gross misunderstanding of this whole topic. Either a person doesn’t care, or they are like me – feverishly pulling out the pig weeds, only to be discouraged by the next rain fall. Many seem adamant about rudely enforcing their brands of “gardening,” and they don’t hesitate to point out what they see. Some of them even call themselves “watchmen.”

8T.083.004
The time spent in criticizing the motives and works of Christ's servants might better be spent in prayer. Often if those who find fault knew the truth in regard to those with whom they find fault, they would have an altogether different opinion of them. How much better it would be if, instead of criticizing and condemning others, everyone would say: "I must work out my own salvation. If I co-operate with Him who desires to save my soul, I must watch myself diligently. I must cut away every evil from my life. I must become a new creature in Christ. I must overcome every fault. Then, instead of weakening those who are striving against evil, I can strengthen them by encouraging words."

We can’t just shut ourselves down – because of other people and their actions…but, life is indeed a garden, and we should “dig it.” Sometimes, there are “grey areas, where we are really the only ones who should be qualified to say why we are doing or not doing something. I have great respect now for some who call themselves “watchmen.” I have been quite blessed by some…You can see that they are genuinely called by God; but I am talking more about how we police one another’s daily behavior through negative filters that give the message “you are not saved,” if you missed this or that pigweed.

9T.193.002
Our hard hearts need to be broken. We need to come together in perfect unity, and we need to realize that we are the purchase of the blood of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Let each one say: "He gave His life for me, and He wants me, as I go through this world, to reveal the love that He revealed in giving Himself for me." Christ bore our sins in His own body on the cross, that God might be just and yet the justifier of those who believe in Him. There is life, eternal life, for all who will surrender to Christ.

We need to go to the “garden” alone; and then “we need to come together in perfect unity, and we need to realize that we are the purchase of the blood of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.” This should take care of the “perfection problem.”

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"...you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3

DavidTBattler

[This message has been edited by DavidTBattler (edited November 24, 2001).]

David, thank you for that heartwarming testimony. It brought tears to my eyes, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. In fact, I cherish those tears, because there was a time when they wouldn't flow, and those are times I'm glad are behind me.

I appreciate the amount of energy you are devoting to this subject. It seems that most of the usual contributors have stopped posting their comments. And I can't help but wondering if they have given up on me, and have concluded that I am too deluded for help. I'm probably wrong, but I am tempted to feel that way. So thank you for sticking it out with me.

1) How can we crucify our self? Crucifixion requires that someone else drives in the nails. We could never do it on our own.???

I agree. I guess I made the mistake of taking for granted that we can only rid ourselves of this and that moral imperfection as we cooperate with the influence and power of the Holy Spirit.

But I also think it's important to make a distinction between those who leave off moral defects of character through unaided human will power, and those who do it by cooperating with the Holy Spirit.

Also I believe we should be careful to draw a line between those who experience victories over certain character defects but cling to one or more pet darling imperfection, and those who are unwilling to allow even one sin to separate then from fully cooperating with the Holy Spirit.

As long as we know in our hearts that we're not selfishly holding on to some darling sin, which is not the same thing as unintentionally falling into sin, we can be sure we are right with Jesus, and that we have nothing to fear for our eternal reward.

2) Is your above quote referring to “justification,” or to “sanctification,” as it relates to “crucify our sinful character?

As I see it, justification accommodates crucifying our old man defects of character. It's a process that, depending on the person, may take many months to many years, and unfortunately quite a few never do come to the place where they completely crucify that one last favorite sin.

Jesus cannot legally, in light of the great controversy and Satan's accusations, justify forgiving someone who cherishes known moral defects of character. It doesn't matter that they have given up a host of other sins if they are clinging to that one pet sin.

3) What would be the noticeable difference between a person having one or the other above understanding (1&2) of “crucify our sinful character?”

Great question. Even Jesus failed to impress everyone with His righteous state of existence. And that fact is a major point that should be better understood. Sometimes we have this unrealistic idea about what it means to be without sin. I believe this exagerated expectation is what causes so many people to be confused about living without sin.

We create this over inflated idea of what it means to be without sin that not even Jesus would be able to meet the standards. Living without sin is not always so obvious to the casual observer. Often the difference is only known by God.

4) How would “crucify our sinful character,” be related to Galatians 5:16?

I believe we must first cooperate with the Holy Spirit to completely crucify our old man habits of sin before we can walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, which is what empowers us to resist the unholy clamorings of our sinful flesh nature.

We cannot walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man if we are clinging to some pet sin. We are either all of His, or we are none of His. The Holy Spirit cannot share a divided throne with Satan.

5) What is the only thing that can possibly oppose these desires of “the flesh?”

The only way we can successfully resist the unholy desires of our sinful flesh nature is by being born again and walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Non-Christians may exercise will power and give up this or that moral imperfection but the result are not unto the honor and glory of God. That's the main difference.

I hope these answers are beginning to clear up the confusion I may have caused by not explaining things more clearly. If not, please hang in there with me until we come to a better understanding.

Mike

You haven't caused me any confusion...I just call it seeing the same thing from different vantage points.

In terms of this "crucifying business," I want to follow up on my testimony above a bit more, first, with a question, then after some have replied; I will have other related comments.

As you read my testimony above; what is it that could have made a "tough guy" like me cry; just watching a movie depiction of Christ, in Gesthemane? Why on earth would I be moved to tears, just reading about His Garden experience, in DA, while playing the song "I Come To The Garden Alone?"

It is an anecdotal question; but the answer, in my mind, comes out quite theologically correct. And I believe from my Bible studies, that the answer to my question here, will explain the "crucifying process, or event," that changes us, and fortifies us in Christ.

------------------
"...you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3

DavidTBattler

When I begin to focus on works - whether it's about overcoming or things I must do - I lose sight of Jesus, and I am in despair of ever being good enough for heaven. I walk away, because I know I am bad right down to my atoms.

When I focus on Jesus, and what He has done for me, and what He says He will do in me, I have hope, and I stick around.

I think we should let God be about His business in us, while we do the things He has given us to do. He has NEVER given us justification or glorification to do. Yet we seem to think He has given us sanctification to work on. Anxiously worrying about whether Christ's atonement was sufficient demonstrates only lack of faith. Anxiously worrying about whether the process of glorification with run without a hitch would be deemed bizarre. And yet, the other part of our salvation - sanctification - which is also entirely and as much God's responsibility as justification and glorification, is worried over, and sweated over, and agonised over in a manner that causes great confusion and even destroys faith.

My post dated November 10 was written when I'd been reading Ellen White's writings in the mindset that it was my job to produce obedience. I was so discouraged when I wrote it, and I'd lost the plot completely.

It's not our job to obey. Our righteousness is filthy rags - and righteousness is right-doing, isn't it?

If we do the only things we can - pray, study God's word, and share our faith and time with others, God does ALL of the rest. We WILL respond to the prompting of the Spirit, and we WILL obey, but it's not our business to set a timetable or agenda about obedience, because it's none of our business.

If the devil can't get you discouraged by falling and failing, he'll get you through your own self-righteousness. Look at anything except Jesus, and the devil will get you for sure.

In AA, the ultimate aim is to remain sober - free from the sin of drinking - but there are people who are referred to as "dry drunks". These are people who don't drink any more, but instead of letting their Higher Power take control and change EVERYTHING about them, overcoming the one sin of drinking has been enough for them. They are usually difficult people to get along with, and they give a poor example for the newly-sober. Their entire focus is on not drinking, while others are rejoicing in a whole new life, they rejoice only that they no longer drink.

I believe that it is possible to be free of known sin, but I believe that it is not my job to focus on that. Or to measure and assess my performance, or the performance of others. As God convicts me of the need to do or not do certain things, I will address them, knowing that it is time they were dealt with. And - as when we have to have an aching tooth removed - success is a foregone conclusion. We just have to go through the process - co-operate with the dentist - at the time.

Moral perfection? I'll have to think about that further. But if Christ's sacrifice isn't all-sufficient for my sanctification, too, then I am utterly lost.

Zyph, thank you for sharing those beautiful thoughts. Amen!!! The only way to experience the sinless example of Jesus is to keep our eyes focused on Him.

If not sinning is our goal then not sinning will be our focus - and if that's our state of mind then we are above all most miserable.

But if imitating the example of Jesus is our goal then Jesus will be our focus - and if that's our state of mind then we are above all most peaceful.

I will be curious to learn how things are progressing as you explore the subject of sanctification and moral perfection.

David, I think I know what brings me to tears when I comtemplate the love of God - I think it has something to do with the influence of the Holy Spirit on my heart and mind as I more fully comprehend the contrast between the goodness of God and the life of sin Jesus came to save me from.

What about you?

I believe another thing that is helpful as we strive to understand the truth about moral perfection and sanctification is discerning the difference between temptation and sin.

If we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man the Bible says that we are at that moment without sin - both legally and in reality. That is, we are truly morally perfect, without sin, blameless and spotless before the throne of God.

Nevertheless, our sinful flesh nature still continues to bombard our new man mind with unholy thoughts and feelings. I believe that most people confuse these sinful thoughts and feelings with committing a sin. And herein lies, in my opinion, the biggest reason why most Christians cannot accept the biblical truth concerning moral perfection.

But are born again believers immediately guilty of these initial unholy thoughts and feelings? I don't think so. I believe that they start off as temptations, and do not become sin until we desire and/or do them. If more people understood this point I believe there would be far less confusion concerning moral perfection.

Because people who think they are guilty when sinful thoughts and feelings enter their minds are going to resist any doctrine that suggests sinless purity is God's plan for every born again believer. But all this doctrinal confusion would be eliminated if they could just understand the difference between sin and temptation.

It is not a sin to be tempted - no matter how weird or bazaar the temptation. And all temptations begin as a thought or a feeling. If we immediately recoil and resist it, by keeping our eyes on Jesus, by staying connected to the Holy Spirit, by relying on God to empower us to obey His voice - then those unholy thoughts and feelings are only temptations which have been successfully resisted unto the honor and glory of God.

Not until Jesus rewards us with a sinless flesh body (when He returns) will we be free from all those hideous thoughts and feelings which originate with our sinful flesh nature.

So, what do the rest of you think?

Did we ever come to a conclusion regarding - When do we experience moral perfection? I went back over the previous posts and it seems to me that we are not united on this all important truth. I think there are basically two opposing views (please help me out if I missed one):

1. Moral perfection is a gift we receive the instant we refuse to retain even one pet darling defect of character and give ourselves wholly to Jesus. Once we're born again we are empowered by God to walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, to imitate the sinless example of Jesus, to grow in grace, and to mature in the fruit of the Spirit. As babes in Christ we grow in grace and mature morally, and so long as we stay connected to Jesus we "do not sin" and "cannot sin." 1 John 3:9. We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception.

2. Moral perfection is an on-going process that begins after we're born again. Over the course of a lifetime we gradually out grow certain defects of character, which God reveals no faster than He is able to empower us to overcome. We do not experience moral perfection until after years of growing and developing. However, during this period of imperfection Jesus covers our unknown defects of character with His blood and righteousness.

Does this fairly represent both sides of the picture? I realize there is another group who believe moral perfection is possible only after Jesus returns and equips us with a sinless flesh nature. But in light of all the Bible and SOP quotes this view stands unjustified.

As I see it, at least so far, the main difference between the two conclusions listed above has to do with when we actually experience moral perfection. By the way, I also realize that there is a difference between justified and sanctified righteousness, and how they relate to this subject. But here I'm focusing on sanctification (imparted righteousness), which is real righteousness, as opposed to justification (imputed righteousness), which is declared righteousness.

I also understand that there is distinction between moral, mental and physical perfection. And from what I've studied, 1) moral perfection concerns the heart and conscious (and is the gift we receive when we're born again), 2) mental perfection has to do with head knowledge (and is something that accumulates over time) and, of course, 3) physical perfection is one of the rewards Jesus will give us when He returns.

But what do you think? When do we experience moral perfection? Is it a gift we receive the very moment we're born again, and which matures over a lifetime? Or it is a gift we begin to receive the moment we're born again, and which unfolds over a lifetime? In other words, do we start off like the baby Jesus, or do we end up like the baby Jesus? Do we imitate His sinless example at the beginning of our walk, or at the end of our walk?

Or do you have an entirely different angle?

[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

The alcoholic who surrenders to God is still addicted to alcohol. His body withdraws, the thought of a drink is appealing, enticing, and impossible to resist in his own strength. Only over time, as new neural paths are laid down, does drink become a truly undesirable thing.

So... when the alcoholic first called on God, and in His strength stopped drinking, was he converted to sobriety? Or was it only after he ceased to desire to drink on a psychological and cellular level? Had his drinking morals been perfected, enabling him to stop? Or were they only perfect after perfect health set in? And what of the notion that he is still an alcoholic all his life, even if he never drinks again. What if he slipped, and found himself in the hotel again? Was his conversion and moral perfection therefore not genuine?

Quote by Mike

"I have found that many of the people who participate in this forum are not sure about the relationship between righteousness by faith and the sanctuary. They don't seem to see a clear connection."

Mike...is it possible that you have a little "I" trouble here? It is more likely that some are better at expressing and articulating their thoughts on such a topic than others may be...I just thought that was worth mentioning as your statement struck me as being too generalized to be applicable to "almost everyone"...

Moral perfection, to me, cannot be exactly measured by humans.

That is a perogative left open only to God.

I think that if someone worries about "moral perfection," then they are likely miles away from it. It's a "no brainer" to me. Go to Jesus with an honest heart; respond to His direction, and His love, the perfection end of it is no man's land. Why do we even need to know the answer to a question like this? Please give us some Scripture that would tell us why or if we need to know when we are "morally perfected."

If you could explain that to us, we would probably have a good answer to your initial question on this thread.

Zyph, thank you for that stirring question. It really strikes at the heart of this subject. I think the answer to the issue you raised involves the difference between sinful character and sinful flesh.

A morally converted Christian has stopped drinking alcohol, but his sinful flesh hasn't stopped craving it. This person, and people in similiar situations, must learn to differeniate between the cravings of his sinful flesh nature and the desires of his new man heart. That's what Romans 7 is all about, as I understand it. If we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we must learn not to blame ourselves for the initial existence of unholy thoughts and feelings. They do not become sin until we desire and/or do them. Is that how you understand the issue?

Is the old saying - Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic - true from the biblical point of view? I don't think so. Paul referred to born again believers as "saints" and not "sinners." Seems to me we are purely Christians, not former alcoholic Christians. 2 Cor 5:17 seems to disallow a combination approach to the problem. In other words, we are not a combination of "old things are passed away" and "all thing are become new." It's either/or, but apparently not both.

David, thank you for those challenging words on page 3 of this thread. I don't know what to say about my "I" problem, except that hopefully in future it will not be so distracting. Please forgive me.

I take it you are not convinced that probing this question is a profitable venture? Perhaps not. But don't you think that it's at least a wee bit disturbing that there is so much contradiction among Christians on this subject? Especially in light of this quote:

DA 671 "The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people."

Wrong! A reformed alcoholic is a perfectly well-balanced, growing individual, as long as he/she continues to work the steps, and rely on their Higher Power. When they look away, they drink, or become a "dry drunk".

There is perfection for humans only while we depend totally on God. We were born evil, and nothing good can come from us. Christians are sinners. Reformed, maybe, but sinners. And throughout eternity, we will be reformed sinners. All our goodness - even then - will come from God. There are some Ellen White quotes about this. I don't have time to find them just now.

You seem to be implying that we will be changed into perfect people over time. I would argue that the growth we experience is learning not to look away from the Source of our power. We get better at that, and the consequence is less desire to sin. Alcoholics have to make a daily commitment to their Higher Power, and attend meetings, or they lose their direction. I would agree that the "old man" thing is true, but I don't believe it is only our flesh that causes problems. Our minds remain in rebellion, and we have to consciously make a daily commitment to God. I believe perfection applies to us learning to walk with God, without becoming distracted.

I quote your post:
"I also understand that there is distinction between moral, mental and physical perfection. And from what I've studied, 1) moral perfection concerns the heart and conscious (and is the gift we receive when we're born again), 2) mental perfection has to do with head knowledge (and is something that accumulates over time) and, of course, 3) physical perfection is one of the rewards Jesus will give us when He returns."

I suspect your reasoning here is merely your opinion. Can you back up each of these assumptions? Bear in mind that we are instructed to attend to both physical and mental issues, and on this planet, there is gradual accumulation and advancement. Why would morality be different? (The bible mentions us growing up into the stature of men and women in the new earth, doesn't it? If so, why aren't we already complete? This is just an aside thought.)

Quote by Mike:

"DA 671 "The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people."

Mike

I don't see that any contradiction should be necessary on this point. I think we always run into trouble when we use short quotes to explain some point of doctrine...

Take a look at the next paragraph of the quote you gave. What difference do you notice?

DA.671.003
Of the Spirit Jesus said, "He shall glorify Me." The Saviour came to glorify the Father by the demonstration of His love; so the Spirit was to glorify Christ by revealing His grace to the world. The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people.
DA.671.004
"When He [the Spirit of truth] is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." The preaching of the word will be of no avail without the continual presence and aid of the Holy Spirit. This is the only effectual teacher of divine truth. Only when the truth is accompanied to the heart by the Spirit will it quicken the conscience or transform the life. One might be able to present the letter of the word of God, he might be familiar with all its commands and promises; but unless the Holy Spirit sets home the truth, no souls will fall on the Rock and be broken. No amount of education, no advantages, however great, can make one a channel of light without the co-operation of the Spirit of God. The sowing of the gospel seed will not be a success unless the seed is quickened into life by the dew of heaven. Before one book of the New Testament was written, before one gospel sermon had been preached after Christ's ascension, the Holy Spirit came upon the praying apostles. Then the testimony of their enemies was, "Ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine." Acts 5:28.

This definitely changes the picture that you had painted with the shorter quote. The process of "moral perfection" is actually well laid out in the next paragraph, after your shorter quote.

[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

Zyph, I didn't mean to single out one particular defect of character (i.e., alcoholism). What you say about drinking seems to be true concerning all former moral imperfections. That is, if we take our eyes off Jesus we automatically revert back to the mind of the old man and resurrect our former habits of sin. We may not act out all of them by the time we repent and God restores us to the mind of the new man, but the potential is possible.

From what I've read about crucifying the "old man" I get the idea that he symbolizes our sinful character defects and imperfections. And from what I've read about "sinful flesh" nature I get the idea that it is the accumulated effects of sin passed on from generation to generation.

Thus the old man is the sinful habits we ourselves cultivate, and sinful flesh is what we inherit from our parents dating back to Adam and Eve. So, if I'm reading Romans 6-8 correctly Jesus empowers us to crucify our old man habits of sin (sinful character), whereas He empowers us to control (not crucify) the sinful desires of our fallen flesh nature. Please compare Rom 6:6 and 1 Cor 9:27.

And that once we cooperate with Jesus and crucify our old man cultivated habits of sin, we then experience the miracle of rebirth. At this point the old man dies. However, our sinful flesh nature continues to hound and harass us with unholy thoughts and feelings, which we may resist unto the honor and glory of God by staying connected to Jesus. These ungodly thoughts and feelings will resemble our old man mind, but we must not confuse the two.

Although the voice of sinful flesh nature and the voice of the old man are identical twins in many ways, I believe it is important that we make a distinction between the two voices. Otherwise, in light of Romans 6-8, we will be tempted to doubt our conversion to Christianity. Just because we are still bombarded with sinful thoughts and feelings does not mean that we have not been born again.

These unholy thoughts and feelings originate with our sinful flesh nature, and we must be careful not to assume that they originated with our old man mind. Why? Because according to Romans 6 we crucified our old man mind when we accepted Jesus as our personal Saviour. Therefore, unless we have resurrected our old man mind, the origin of our sinful thoughts and feelings can be traced back to our sinful flesh natrure.

Initially these unholy thoughts and feelings are only temptations, which we may resist through the indwelling power of the Spirit of God. But if we dwell upon them and begin to cherish them we have resurrected our old man mind and have slipped back into our former habits of sin. And then we must receive the gift of repentance in order for Jesus to restore us back to the mind of the new man. And then the old man returns to the grave.

My studies have led me to believe that to ignore this distinction is to misunderstand what Paul is saying in Romans 6-8. The constrast between sinful flesh (inherited propensities) and sinful character (cultivated propensities) is the key that unlocked this issue for me.

RE: the differences between moral, mental and physical perfection I'm not sure what you're having trouble with? What I'm trying to get across is that like Jesus, who matured from childhood to manhood, so to we may imitate His example when we experience rebirth and begin to mature in the fruit of Spirit, and increase in knowledge. But physically we will not receive a sinless flesh body until after Jesus returns. True, we must take care of our health now, but we will not experience physical perfection until Jesus comes.

[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

David, I feel like you caught me cheating or something. But I'm not sure what I'm guilty of. Man, I feel like I need to apologize. But I need your help. I used that EGW quote to demonstrate that understanding (and experiencing) the truth about character perfection is important. What did you think I meant?

"God will not utterly forget nor forever forsake those who have
been faithful, even if they sometimes commit errors." 3T 88.

This doesn't sound like perfection.
Mike, I don't have time to respond to your post, sorry. I'll have to later.

Zyph, great quote. But do you really think it undermines what the Bible says about the gift of perfection?

As I see it, the gift of moral perfection is a reality as long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. But if we take our eyes off Jesus and resurrect the old man and slip back into sin, then the promises of perfection do not apply to us at that point in time.

But we are not forever lost, without hope, if we do find ourselves in a state of sin. By the way, it's important to note that the Bible doesn't say a born again believer will sin. Instead, it says "if any man sin" (1 John 2:1,2). And if we do sin, Jesus is quick to motivate us to receive the gift of repentance which empowers us to confess and forsake that sin, and gives God the legal right to pardon us and to restore us back to the mind of the new man.

And the promises of moral perfection apply to those Christians who have established a vital connection to Jesus, and are abiding in His love and grace, and are experiencing Spirit empowered growth and development, maturing in the fruit of Spirit - the same as Jesus did as He grew from childhood to manhood.

Even if we do slip in and out of sin from time to time it doesn't disprove what the Bible says about moral perfection while we are abiding in Jesus. The truth about perfection is only true about the new man experience. Whether or not we are morally perfect at any given point in time depends on whether or not we are in Christ. See 2 Cor 5:17.

By morally perfect I do not mean to say we are morally mature the very moment we experience the miracle of conversion. We begin as babes in Christ, just as Jesus began as a baby. We begin at conversion where Jesus began at conception. And just like Jesus possessed all the attributes of God, all the fruit of the Spirit, we also inherit the same along with the free gift of the sinless seed of the new man.

Notice these encouraging promises:

"The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

"God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

I forgot to mention something. When I share these thoughts with others, sometimes people get the idea that I'm suggesting there is no room for growth and development after we've experienced the miracle of conversion.

So, let me make it clear that I'm not saying we are morally mature the day we receive the sinless seed of the new man. Just because we're born again morally perfect does not mean that we are born again morally mature. To be born again morally perfect means to be born again morally complete. Nothing is missing that we'll need to receive later on. We're not born again morally defective or handicapped.

Jesus is an example of what it means to be born morally perfect. It means that not one attribute or fruit is missing at birth. But Jesus was not born morally mature. He had to grow and develop from childhood to manhood. As He grew He matured in each one of the fruit and attributes of God.

He wasn't born missing this or that fruit or attribute. He didn't have to acquire any of them later on. He was born with all of them. Just like a plant seed comes fully equipped and as it grows its various attributes unfold.

And that's how it is with a born again believer. The sinless seed of the new man comes fully equipped with all the fruit and attributes of God, and they unfold as we grow in grace. Like a light that shines brighter and brighter until the day of God. Prov 4:18.

We grow from grace to grace, from faith to faith, from glory to glory. See Rom 1:17 and 2 Cor 3:18. After we've been born again the Holy Spirit empowers us to mature in the fruit and attributes of God. And as long as we are connected to Christ they unfold from glory to glory.

We do not accumulate them over the course of a lifetime, as though we did not possess them from the beginning of our rebirth experience. Nor do we spend our lives swapping defective traits for perfected traits until eventually we possess all the attributes of God. Instead, we receive all of them as a gift the moment we're born again, and then we spend the rest of our life maturing in them.

Do you see what I mean?

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

What do the rest of you think about the questions and comments mentioned above?

It's only me - not "the rest of you" I'm afraid.

Mike, you sound like you're saying we will be sinless - at least conscious sin - right from the beginning. If we are sinless, what's to mature?

Zyph, thank you for jumping back in this discussion. I've missed you. In fact, my post twice removed was written with this question in mind. And the best way for me to understand it is to take Jesus as an example of maturing after you're morally sinless.

I think we all might agree that Jesus started off sinless. And yet He grew and developed from childhood to manhood. If we can understand how Jesus matured, even though He was morally sinless, then I think we can begin to understand how it might work with us? I believe Jesus is an example of what life can be for those who are born again. And as long as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man we may grow and develop in the same way Jesus did. No doubt you've read the many quotes that say exactly that.

How do you see it?

Is moral perfection sinlessness now, or is it on the road to sinlessness when this frail and sinful human body receives a glorious new and sinless body?

Maybe we can answer this by getting more personal.

Can anybody claim moral perfection or sinlessness now? In other words, can anybody claim that they haven't sinned in the last 20 years, 20 months, 20 weeks, 20 days, or even in the last 20 hours?

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

If even our diet can influence our morals, then surely the only place we experience moral perfection is when we put on immortality.

What you say about the absolute victory obtainable is true, Mike. But it's confusing when you phrase things in such a way that you seem to imply our natures can be perfect like Jesus. I don't think we have the tuning equipment to maintain contact constantly at first. Even though our contact will bring victory, we are imperfect, or immature when it comes to maintaining the contact and dependence. As we grow and mature, the perfection at any given time is the same, and obtainable, but we change in our practices, habits, and ability to obtain and maintain. Our humanity was never perfect in any way. Jesus was born with a perfectly intact spiritual nature and connection to God. He matured from the point of perfection. We begin when we are born again, and so I think it's different for us. There is a process of coming to God which Jesus didn't go through. Moses sinned on the border of the promised land. We always have the capacity to fall and fail. Victory is a wonderful and true promise. But until we are glorified, we are still human, and the word perfection should be used sparingly.

Compliments of the season, Mike. And to you, too, Daryl.

Daryl, great question. Thank you. Have you noticed I've been careful to single out "moral perfection" and that I've gone to great pains to say mental perfection is on-going and that physical perfection occurs when Jesus rewards us with sinless flesh when He returns?

If a morally converted person is in that state because he has his eyes firmly fixed upon Jesus, then how and why would he go around boasting - I haven't sinned in... (however long). How can they be self-focused when they have their eyes on Jesus? Is that what morally perfect people are supposed do? Will they do that in the New Earth? Does mentioning this absurd situation somehow prove we can't experience moral perfection the moment we're born again?

Was moral perfection and moral sinlessness a reality for Jesus? Are they not in fact the same thing? Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom 8:3), thus it is obvious His flesh was not sinless. But does that mean He was any less morally perfect? If we can answer yes to these questions, then in what way is a born again believer different than Jesus?

Zyph, why should we be afraid of the word perfection? Why should we be careful with the word? If perfection is the foundation of the promises of God, shouldn't we rather be thrilled about the word? Is our only other recourse the one Daryl insinuated? That is, if we believe in conversion and moral perfection, they way it's outlined in the Bible and the SOP, must we go around and boast that we haven't sinned in such and such amount of time?

Did Jesus really have an advantage over us because He never sinned? Or was this apparent advantage offset through the strength of the temptations He resisted? I mean, 1 Cor 10:13 says God will not allow our temptations to be any stronger than He can empower us to resist unto His honor and glory. As our ability to resist strengthens so do our temptations. So, did Jesus have an advantage not available to us?

HP 166.4 "Be ye therefore perfect" (Matt. 5:48) is God's word to us. And in order that we might obey this word, He sent His only-begotten Son to this earth to live in our behalf a perfect life. We have before us His example, and the strength by which He lived this life is at our disposal. In thought, word, and act Jesus was sinless. Perfection marked all that He did. He points us to the path that He trod, saying, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me" (Matt. 16:24).

3 SM 355.4 We cannot say, "I am sinless," till this vile body is changed and fashioned like unto His glorious body. But if we constantly seek to follow Jesus, the blessed hope is ours of standing before the throne of God without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; complete in Christ, robed in His righteousness and perfection.-- Signs of the Times, March 23, 1888.

4 SP 302.1 Those who are truly seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge the thought that they are sinless. The more their minds dwell upon the character of Christ, and the nearer they approach to his divine image, the more clearly will they discern its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own weakness and defects. Those who claim to be without sin, give evidence that they are far from holy. It is because they have no true knowledge of Christ that they can look upon themselves as reflecting his image. The greater the distance between them and their Saviour, the more righteous they appear in their own eyes.

BE & ST 2-21-1898 Those who have felt the sanctifying and transforming power of God, must not fall into the dangerous error of thinking that they are sinless, that they have reached the highest state of perfection, and are beyond the reach of temptation. The standard the Christian is to keep before him is the purity and loveliness of Christ's character. Day by day he may be putting on new beauties, and reflecting to the world more and still more of the divine image.

18 MR 99.2 Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts, including the one relating to the observance of the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week, the day that He blessed and sanctified, "because that in it He had rested from all His work" (Gen. 2:3).

DA 311.3 The tempter's agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God.

DA 664.4 "Verily, verily, I say unto you," Christ continued, "He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also." The Saviour was deeply anxious for His disciples to understand for what purpose His divinity was united to humanity. He came to the world to display the glory of God, that man might be uplifted by its restoring power. God was manifested in Him that He might be manifested in them. Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was.

SD 294.2 Christ has left us a perfect, sinless example. His followers are to walk in His footsteps. If they are not transformed in character, they can never dwell with Him in His kingdom. Christ died to elevate and ennoble them, and those who retain hereditary tendencies to wrong can not dwell with Him. He suffered all that it is possible for human flesh to suffer and endure, that we might pass triumphantly through all the temptations Satan may invent to destroy our faith.

[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike, we should be careful of the word, "perfection" because of its meaning. "Victory" is a clearer term when we are discussing overcoming.

Although we can be as saved as it is possible to be on this planet, we are NOT saved until the Rescuer arrives for us, and takes us home. Everything else may be factual, but it is a reality only through faith. And it is not a finished work.

Although we can accept the gift of overcoming, and the gift is perfect, WE are not perfect until we put on immortality. And therefore, prior to that work being finished, we can fall and fail.

If you believe perfection is obtainable, and you believe it is a condition of salvation - or a by-product - then where is the problem in assessing your own level of perfection? You say that to do this is to take your eyes off Jesus. Bingo! You have defined the problem. Discussing or focussing on perfection as a goal or object - or even a concept - causes us to look away from Jesus.

Zyph, did you mean to imply that we must take our eyes off Jesus in order to study the subject of character perfection? Or did I misunderstand you?

I guess it never occurred to me that the word "perfection" is a bad word or a word to be avoided. I have always thought of it as the ultimate gift of God, something to be cherished and desired. "The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people." DA 671.

If perfection of character is a gift reserved for those who make it to heaven, then what do all the promises of perfection mean for us today? And did you mean to say that in heaven we will lose the ability to fail and fall? As I understand it, the plan of salvation restores us to the place Adam and Eve occupied in Eden. Thus, we never do lose the ability to sin, but according to God's foreknowledge He can promise that we will never choose to exercise our ability to sin.

What do you think?

Perfection is both a process, and a destination. Justification is the process by which we are regarded as having lived a perfect life - even though we haven't. Sanctification is the process by which God teaches us how to allow Him to will and to do in and through us, instead of fighting sin in our own strength. Glorification is the process by which we are changed to perfection of body and character. There IS no perfection as a noun in our lives. But we are REGARDED as perfect from day one of Justification through to Glorification, as long as we maintain our walk with Christ. And advancement towards perfection - the on-going PROCESS of perfection (perfecting, if you will) continues even after glorification, as we ceaselessly approach further understanding and imitation of God.

Victory over besetting sin isn't perfection. It's an irresistable symptom of walking with the Lord, and brings glory to His name. (See the 23rd Psalm)

I haven't read all the references to perfection, Mike, but if you read the one you quoted as process, it still makes sense. Have a look at the other ones.

Sorry - just re-read your post. Yes, I read an Ellen White quote a few days ago that said we would be unable to sin again after glorification, because there would be no more tests, and the issue had been decided. I'm wildly mis-quoting, probably, but that was the gist. I'll try to find it again.

Zyph, thank you for your engaging observations. May I also say I very much appreciate studying with you. Just a thought - If we will be unable to sin in the New Earth, then why didn't God make Adam and Eve that way in the first place?

I like the thought you shared about the process of perfection continuing even after we're glorified with a sinless flesh nature. Which leads me to wonder if character perfection has anything to do with not sinning or overcoming so-called unknown defects of character? Seems to me character perfection has to do with reproducing the lovely character of Christ more and more unto the perfect day. Prov 4:18.

Notice these quotes:

Christ's Object Lessons, page 384, paragraph 2
Love is the basis of godliness. Whatever the profession, no man has pure love to God unless he has unselfish love for his brother. But we can never come into possession of this spirit by trying to love others. What is needed is the love of Christ in the heart. When self is merged in Christ, love springs forth spontaneously. The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within-- when the sunshine of heaven fills the heart and is revealed in the countenance.

Conflict and Courage, page 110, paragraph 4
God has made ample provision for His people; and if they rely upon His strength, they will never become the sport of circumstances. The strongest temptation cannot excuse sin. However great the pressure brought to bear upon the soul, transgression is our own act. It is not in the power of earth or hell to compel anyone to do evil. Satan attacks us at our weak points, but we need not be overcome. However severe or unexpected the assault, God has provided help for us, and in His strength we may conquer.

The Desire of Ages, page 311, paragraph 3
The tempter's agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God.

The Signs of the Times, June 5, 1884, paragraph 12
There is no excuse for continuing in sin. No man is obliged to do evil, and be lost. Every one who perishes destroys his own soul. The provisions of grace are ample. Jesus is pleading in our behalf, and there is mercy for even the most guilty and sinful. Let us take hold of the strength of Jesus. He loves us with a love that is inexpressible; let us respond to that love.

The Watchman, February 4, 1908, paragraph 6
But by faith and prayer all may meet the requirements of the gospel. No man can be forced to transgress God's holy law. Temptation, however strong, is no excuse for sin; for divine grace is sufficient for us, and "the Lord's eyes are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers."

Manuscript Releases Volume Nine, page 233, paragraph 3
There is no excuse for man to remain in transgression and sin, because strength has been provided for him in Jesus, that he may overcome. The God of heaven Himself is working by His Spirit.

Manuscript Releases Volume Eighteen, page 144, paragraph 2
Let no one excuse his sin by saying, "It will not matter; it is only a little thing." That sin, small though it may seem to you, may cause the loss of a soul.

Sermons and Talks Volume Two, page 294, paragraph 3
Without perfection of character no one can enter the pearly gates of the city of God, for if, with all our imperfections, we were permitted to enter that city, there would soon be in heaven a second rebellion. We must first be tried and chosen, and found faithful and true. Upon the purification of our character rests our only hope of eternal life.

Sermons and Talks Volume One, page 247, paragraph 2
The law cannot save you, but it is the standard of character, and to represent the character of Jesus Christ you must live the law, for He lived the law in our world. Paul says, "I have taught them from house, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." (See Acts 20:20,21.) This is the way. We behold Him for the perfection of His character and then we see the defects in our own character. Do you stand before God and say, "Cleanse us and change us"? You should flee to Jesus Christ and lay hold of the divine merits of the Son of God, and then you are washed from the defilements and stains of sin. There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ. Christ does not war against the Father. "I and the Father are one." He was in the express image of the Father's person, and we want to express the character of Jesus Christ.

Manuscript Releases Volume Nineteen, page 117, paragraph 2
The living God has given in His holy law a transcript of His character. The greatest Teacher the world has ever known is Jesus Christ. And what is the standard He has given for all who believe in Him to reach? "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" [Matt. 5:48]. As God is perfect in His high sphere of action, so man may be perfect in his human sphere. The ideal of Christian character is Christlikeness. There is opened before us a path of continual advancement. We have an object to reach, a standard to gain, which includes everything good and pure and noble and elevated. There should be continual striving and constant progress onward and upward toward perfection of character. (See 2 Tim. 3:14-17; Rom. 15:4; Col. 2:8-10.)

Manuscript Releases Volume Eighteen, page 202, paragraph 1
The luster of Christ's jewels depends on the polishing that they receive. God does not compel us to be polished. We are left free to choose to be polished or to remain unpolished. But everyone who is pronounced worthy of a place in the Lord's temple must submit to the polishing process. He must consent to have the sharp edges cut away from his character, that it may be shapely and beautiful, fitted to represent the perfection of Christ's character.

Manuscript Releases Volume Seven, page 389, paragraph 1
When we reflect Christ's image, we shall love one another as He has loved us. We shall not love as we love our neighbor, but as Christ loved us. It is an advance to love as Christ loved. This is the perfection of Christian character. When we can say, My will is wholly submerged in God's will, then peace and rest come in.

Manuscript Releases Volume Seven, page 151, paragraph 1
We are privileged to receive from Christ all the excellence necessary for perfection of character. But in order for us to obtain this excellence, we must show more self-denial, more self-sacrifice. . . .

Manuscript Releases Volume Seven, page 49, paragraph 4
Let every professed believer advance. We are to have sanctified, refined aspirations, worthy ambitions. Ever press onward, seeking for a character that will represent that of the Lord Jesus. We are to recognize the perfection of His character, and demonstrate in our lives the principles of that character.

[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Zyph, I'm sorry for all the quotes. I know it can be overwhelming. From the quotes listed above I gather that perfection of character is a gift we receive the moment we surrender ourselves totally to Jesus, and that this gift continues to blossom and flourish as walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man. While on this path we are also empowered to resist sin, self and Satan unto the honor and glory of God.

But I find it hard to believe that character perfection is the process of becoming less and less sinful and defective over the course of a lifetime. I'm not saying that's what you're saying. The very words "character perfection" suggests the opposite. They imply a process whereby character is being built up rather than being torn down or remodeled.

The Desire of Ages, page 172, paragraph 1
Jesus continued: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." By nature the heart is evil, and "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4. No human invention can find a remedy for the sinning soul. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." Rom. 8:7; Matt. 15:19. The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit.

Touching on what you wrote about justification. Can Jesus legally justify applying the benefits of His blood to cover known and unconquered moral defects of character? If there is no excuse for sin, and if ample power from above is available to recognize and resist any and every species of temptation, then how can we assume there is any such thing as an unknown defect of character?

Can you name a defect of character which a born again, Spirit-filled believer might unwittingly possess without realizing it? I can see this being true before we experience the miracle of rebirth, during the pre-conversion process where the Holy Spirit is leading us step by step to give up everything for Jesus. But I can't imagine it being true afterwards.

What do you think?

[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike, if you read Desire of Ages, you'll find that God had to allow man to be tempted because Satan had already introduced rebellion. In the new earth, the source of rebellion is gone. And we've shown which Power we want to control us. We are told sin will never arise again. Perhaps it's a sealing process which simply permanently confirms our commitment. I don't really know. But I do know we aren't turned into robots, and that our love for God will be voluntarily offered. I don't know how unhappy I would have been if I'd been made unable to sin, or how unhappy God would have been, but I look around me at the suffering and misery on this planet, and I wish He would flip the switch now. (And this is the point where you leap in and say...lol)

I haven't looked for the statement I referred to. And I might have to digest some of your post.

"Which leads me to wonder if character perfection has anything to do with not sinning or overcoming so-called unknown defects of character? Seems to me character perfection has to do with reproducing the lovely character of Christ more and more unto the perfect day. Prov 4:18." Moral perfection, too? Jesus comes in and pushes out all else? But doesn't it take time for all else to leave, Mike? And in the process, aren't we regarded as the Lord's?

Doesn't "conversion" mean "to turn from or towards"? Surely the travelling happens AFTER we have turned.

Justification is right up there with Sanctification. I am justified when I turn from my old life. But I might have a belly full of beer, or I might have just killed a man. I might not understand how to connect with God fully, so I am still prone to sin, and too weak in my own strength to not sin. But I have turned, and I am heaven-bound. Now, if I die of a heart attack, am I saved? Was Jesus' sacrifice good enough for me, to fulfil the righteousness that I was unable to fulfil?

Justification doesn't stop at coversion, with Sanctification kicking in and taking over. Ellen White says we will often have to weep at the feet of Jesus. Why weep if we are morally perfect? If we have to change PRIOR to conversion, how do you explain "Come unto me, and I will give you rest"?

Like many of my posts, this is a bit all over the place, and I haven't systematically sat down to find specific responses to everything you said. I will try to do this, but I really wanted to respond to just a couple of things quickly.

Mike, I will return the appreciative noises. I have formed the impression that you are a caring christian man, and I respect that. I don't always see things in the same way, and I'm a poor (for "poor" read "lazy") scholar these days. Unlike some people, I dislike debate. It can lead to negative feelings in everyone (and I am the chief sinner!) I am interested in some things, and am willing to discuss them in order to increase my own (and others') understanding. And you debate peaceably, which is much appreciated.

Mike, you have said before that you can't or won't comment on your own moral perfection. But Jesus told the demoniac to go and tell people what the Lord had done for him. If this subject is good news for you, and it has been demonstrated to be true in your life, surely you should share some of your own experience which illustrates your point. This is not a sarcastic challenge. I am sincerely asking for your testimony. After all, some of God's workings are recorded in lives, and not in the written word. And who can argue with a life?

Zyph, thank you for the noise? You have a cute way of putting it. And I like the way you explained why we won't choose to sin in the New Earth.

Is the man whose belly is full of beer a converted Christian if he accepts Jesus as His personal Saviour in that condition? Was Nicodemas converted the night before he met with Jesus? Was Peter converted before the night he wept? Perhaps these quotes can help answer these question:

DA 172.3 "By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process."

DA 175.5 "The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8."

SC 47.2 "Desires for goodness and holiness are right as far as they go; but if you stop here, they will avail nothing. Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians. They do not come to the point of yielding the will to God. They do not now choose to be Christians."

These passages seem to say that conversion is a when-then miraculous experience that is the result of months and perhaps years of wooing and winning by the Holy Spirit. When someone like the man full of beer begins to respond favorably to the winsome ways of the Spirit - I believe the quotes above indicate that he has entered the path that will lead him to conversion.

According to Sister White conversion is a radical transformation, which is rare in this age of the world:

47 16.4 "We are active agents for Christ or for the enemy. We either gather with Jesus or scatter abroad. True conversion is a radical change. The very drift of the mind and bent of the heart should be turned and life become new again in Christ."

6BC 1075.7 "The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ."

6BC 1101.1 "The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again."

RH 7-30-1901 "Many who profess to follow Christ have not genuine religion. They do not reveal in their lives the fruit of true conversion. They are controlled by the same habits, the same spirit of fault-finding and selfishness, which controlled them before they accepted Christ.

"No one can enter the city of God who has not a knowledge of genuine conversion. In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within. Faith passes into knowledge, and the word of God is understood. The branch becomes a living part of the Vine."

Again, these quotes clearly teach that there is more to conversion than the first steps we take toward swapping a life of sin for a life of abiding in Christ. Are we saved during this process that ultimately leads to conversion? I suppose that depends on our state of mind at the moment of death and also upon God's knowledge of the future. If we're one of those half baked, half converted, so-called Christians then I doubt we'll rise up with the saved in the first resurrection. But if we were rapidly traveling along the path of conversion, I'm quite sure we would be admitted to the kingdom of God.

Is that how you see things?

Zyph, I agree that justification and sanctification work hand in hand. However, I also believe that Jesus cannot justify covering known moral defects of character. Ample provision is available to live without possessing or committing known moral sins. But if we excuse known sin in any way, then we are in essence suggesting that resisting sin somehow depends on our ability to accomplish it on our own.

The same thing that God does to empower us to resist even the slightest temptation is the same thing He does to enable us to resist all the temptations He allows to test and grow our faith in Him. At least that's idea I get from reading all those quotes I posted a couple posts back.

Can I share a personal testimony that helps validate what I've been sharing about conversion? Well, this much I can say without endangering my soul. When I'm right with Jesus, when I'm walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, when I keep my eyes firmly fixed upon Jesus, I believe I am experiencing the promises of God.

I can say with Paul - Jesus empowers me to fight a good fight, and to keep the faith. 2 Tim 4:7. "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal 2:20.

However, I can also tell when I'm not in the state of mind as described above. And then I experience a separate set of truths - the truth about sinning and repenting. But I do not believe for one minute that my personal short comings derail the truth as it is in Jesus. Our Lord is the ultimate example. His life proves the promises are true. And so do our lives - when they are in harmony with the conditions of the promises.

Furthermore, my own precious wife, who knows me better than any other mortal on earth, just told me the other day that my life in Jesus is the most convincing thing that led her to believe the promises of God. Naturally she's my wife and so perhaps her words do not carry much weight, but they were as sweet as honey to me.

I hope that helps?

I have had the opportunity to follow some of this discussion. I would like to throw a thought in for general consumption, don't know that it will change anything.
I like to think of perfection of going into the sanctuary. When you go into the sanctuary you are surrounded by a white curtain, the righteousness of Jesus. In order to get into the sanctuary you had to go through the rent in the vail, the wound in Christ's side. When you get into the sanctuary you have to be anointed by the Holy Spirit and washed by the prophets. Then you get to go to the altar and both accept the sacrifice for you AND you have to get on the altar yourself. At anytime you can always call a halt and go back outside of the sanctuary, what we would call backsliding. Outside of the sanctuary are the heathen. But if you are willing to get on the altar, with the assistance of the High Priest you, the old you, will be consumed. While you are being consumed you still are to participate in all the other functions of the sanctuary, the Lords supper at the laver, the witnessing at the candlestick, the participating in the Word at the table of shewbread, the prayers at the incense, the accepting of mercy at the mercy seat, the writing of the law in your hearts and mind, the intercessory experience of letting the High Priest represent you and deliver you from sin.
All of these and more are occuring when you are in the sanctuary. None of this can be done on your own. But none of it can be done without your cooperation and approval.

One last thought. I like to think of the white curtain as being gauze. We are surrounded by perfect gauze filled with the balm of Gilead. As we are in the sanctuary this balm is penetrating our souls and bringing about the change from sinner to saint. We are forensically perfect when we go into the sanctuary and we are being changed into perfect beings while in the sanctuary. When the High Priest finishes the Most Holy Place activities He will grant you the perfect body to go with the perfect character and God will be all in all.

Greg, I just absolutely love what you wrote about the sanctuary and salvation. I believe it will all my heart and head. However, I have met with stiff resistance in this forum for advocating the same things.

Like you wrote, I too believe that we crucify our sinful old man habits and traits of character in the outer court on the altar of burnt offerings, and that we experience the miracle of rebirth in the laver of baptism. And then walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we enter the holy place where we mature in the attributes of God and in the fruit of the Spirit through prayer, study, fellowship and outreach. And finally, when our names come up in the investigative judgment, our record and memory of sin will be blotted out.

I see justification being first obtained in the outer court and then being maintained in the holy place where the process of sanctification is an ongoing daily experience in righteousness by faith. Glorification is associated with the most holy place where first our record and memory of sin is blotted out, and then mortality shall put on immortality when Jesus arrives in the clouds of glory.

I think an important concept to explore, study, and pray over is the concept of baptism. I personally think that we have not put enough emphasis on Exodus 40:12-16. I think all Christians fall into the Aaron(Jesus) and his sons(us) category. I think that we are baptized with the Holy Spirit and washed in the doorway. I believe that the laver is more along the lines of the footwashing at the Lords Supper. What do you think?

I guess I hadn't thought of it in that way before. In Romans 6 Paul compares batpism to the death and burial of Jesus, which I have assumed is symbolized by Jesus entering and exiting the laver/tomb. If not the laver, then where?

Mike:
I personally have never thought of the tomb in the context of the sanctuary. To me the tomb would have to be outside of the camp. So it is an interesting question.
I still like the baptism in the doorway and the laver being the foot washing at the Lord's Supper.

Greg, Jesus was crucified outside the sanctuary, and yet most people associate His crucifixion with the altar of burnt offerings in the outer court. Does this fact help us determine whether or not the laver symbolizes the tomb?

Also, since communion service symbolizes the life and death of Jesus, and since baptism symbolizes imitating Jesus' life, death and resurrection - wouldn't it make sense to conclude that whatever the laver symbolizes it would somehow encompass all of the above?

Mike, I have to say that I find your preoccupation with the requirement of perfection PRIOR to being deemed converted unscriptural. I also think the question, "When do we experience moral perfection?" is a non-question. You might as well ask, "When do we experience invisibility?"

Justification is Christ's life covering ALL sin - including moral ones. Salvation isn't a revolving door (an Ellen White quote - source unknown to me at this time). Leaping in and out of the new man and the old man is what we do, and your testimony seems to confirm this. We get closer to God, and the wavering gets further away from us. But salvation is a GIFT. Justification is a GIFT. Sanctification is a GIFT. Glorification is a GIFT. And moral perfection - the state from which we fell (almost - as man had to prove his allegiance, and failed) is bestowed upon us at the end of time, along with immortality. There is NO perfection, as such, in this life. We experience victory over sin, but if this were perfect, it would remain when we looked away from Jesus.

Here is a cut and paste from your second post in this topic: "When is ceasing from known sin a reality for us?" This means that you say moral perfection equals ceasing from known sin.

I think the bible and Ellen White say moral perfection is walking with, and therefore knowing Jesus, and by knowing, we become like. Irresistably. Seeking Him is the focus. When do we experience moral perfection? No, wrong question. Rather, how can I know Him as my constant Companion. There is no time frame. It depends on one's commitment, subjection, and sheer time spent in fellowship and service with Him.

I am very surprised by the following paragraph from one of your posts: "Are we saved during this process that ultimately leads to conversion? I suppose that depends on our state of mind at the moment of death and also upon God's knowledge of the future. If we're one of those half baked, half converted, so-called Christians then I doubt we'll rise up with the saved in the first resurrection. But if we were rapidly traveling along the path of conversion, I'm quite sure we would be admitted to the kingdom of God."

You imply (a) that we can have no assurance unless we are living completely free of all known sin and (b) we can have that assurance if we are travelling at the correct pace towards that goal. It reminds me of the conversations - and definite statements - I heard at church in the past, where people told their children that if they died committing one sin and couldn't repent of it, then in spite of their otherwise pure life, they were lost.

No - there is something much more important than my behaviour and yours. It's the direction we are travelling in. And if we are travelling in that direction, led by the Spirit, we are experiencing all the moral perfection we can handle, thank you.

I'd like to share something that caught my attention re this subject a few days ago, from the Desire of Ages: "He knew that the life of His trusting disciples would be like His, a series of uninterrupted victories, not seen to be such here, but recognized as such in the great hereafter." If our lives here are not seen to be a series of uninterrupted victories, could it be that we are looking in the wrong places for evidence?

Of course there is power to obey. But love is the empowering of true obedience. The devil likes people to worry about their behaviour and their moral perfection. It robs them of valuable time with the Source. You may feel I am demonstrating a naivete, and not focussing on the "meat" of the bible. But unless we have the basics right, the foundation won't hold up the rest.

"Can Jesus legally justify applying the benefits of His blood to cover known and unconquered moral defects of character?" Yes. HE lived the perfect life, and fulfilled ALL righteousness. HE paid for every sin I will ever commit. And if I have not instantly become a bible-carrying vegetarian sabbath-keeper, even if I know this to be right, His blood covers me when I accept it, and TURN FROM or TURN TOWARDS - which is the meaning of conversion. The TURN, not the arrival, is the whole point. The rest will follow according to God's timetable. Otherwise, all christians through the ages would have believed the same things. They didn't, and truth has been revealed progressively.

"And what is the standard He has given for all who believe in Him to reach? "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" [Matt. 5:48]. As God is perfect in His high sphere of action, so man may be perfect in his human sphere. The ideal of Christian character is Christlikeness. There is opened before us a path of continual advancement. We have an object to reach, a standard to gain, which includes everything good and pure and noble and elevated. There should be continual striving and constant progress onward and upward toward perfection of character. " Im not sure what you see in this, but I see movement towards perfection, "continual advancement" "toward perfection of character". Man's "human sphere" is continual advancement TOWARDS Christlikeness.

When do we experience moral perfection? No. When do we experience salvation, which brings everything else in its train? At the moment of the change in direction, when we become grafted to the Vine.

As to your quotes - and I don't think I can address each one - I will comment on some.

I think some of my post was chopped off. I didn't mean to be so long-winded. I've lost the thoughts, now.

Just a question: in the sanctuary service, what did the priest do, and what did the common man do?

Mike - here is the quote I referred to before:

"The Spirit of Prophecy Volume Three, page 80, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: In the Outer Court
Jesus now resumed his discourse where he had left it: "Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die." In the act of Christ dying for the salvation of man, Heaven was not only made accessible to man, but God and his Son were justified before all Heaven in dealing with the rebellion of Satan, and in his expulsion. The blot which Satan had placed upon Heaven itself was thus to be washed away; and no sin could ever more enter there to all eternity."

Zyph, I think the most prudent thing that I can say at this point in the discussion is - Amen. Truly Jesus, and all heaven, is interested in our salvation. He doing everything in His power to save us in His eternal kingdom of love.

If my preoccupation with moral perfection and ceasing from known sin gives you the impression that I believe living without sin is more important than keeping our eyes on Jesus, then by all means, I repent before you and God. I doubt you were looking for a confession, but your last post made me realize that I failed to make Jesus the center of this discussion.

I wish I had been more careful to point to Jesus as our altogether wonderful example of what it means to grow in grace and to develop mentally, emotionally, morally and spiritually as born again believers. Just as Jesus continually advanced in moral perfection, as He matured from childhood to manhood, so too I have assumed that we may also follow in His foot steps.

Apparently Jesus was not incarnated with a fully developed character. It looks as though He perfected a spotless character over time through test, trial and temptation.

The Youth's Instructor, December 28, 1899, paragraph 7
"Christ is the Captain of our salvation. "It became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." The suffering that poured in upon the Son of God is beyond anything that man will be called to endure; yet Christ overcame, and perfected a spotless character. By his suffering and resistance he made plain to man that perfection of character can be obtained and maintained by humanity."

God's Amazing Grace, page 324, paragraph 2
"When the truth is received, it will work radical changes in life and character; for religion means the abiding of Christ in the heart, and where He is, the soul goes on in spiritual activity, ever growing in grace, ever going on to perfection."

God's Amazing Grace, page 230, paragraph 3
"Perfection of character is based upon that which Christ is to us. If we have constant dependence on the merits of our Saviour, and walk in His footsteps, we shall be like Him, pure and undefiled."

It would seem that Jesus perfected a spotless character in the same manner we must. This would suggest that being perfect and perfecting a spotless character are two different yet related experiences. Going on unto perfection, advancing onward, upward, and toward perfection is something that even Jesus Himself experienced throughout His lifetime here on earth. Thus it would seem that this same spiritual path is the one we must traverse if we are to follow in the steps of Jesus.

Does that sound right to you?

Mike, Jesus' WAS born with a spotless character. He grew up, but he started as a baby the way we start at our New birth. However, He didn't have the momentum of sin that we contend wit. Yes, I know he had a harder time than we do, because of who He was and His mission, as well as his powers as God.

I'm not saying we can't develop a perfect character. I guess I'm reacting to the way you present it as a requirement prior to being regarded as converted or saved rather than a promise. And the only perfection is initiated and brought to fruition by God, not us. We make our conscious holy decisions AFTER He has wrought change in us, and ONLY as we remain connected to Him. The second we withdraw from the relationship or connection with Him, perfection ceases to exist. So WE are never morally perfect in ourselves until we are immortal, and even then we will be upheld by His power. "Messages to Young People, p. 254 Christ is mediating in behalf of man, and the order of unseen worlds also is preserved by His mediatorial work."

But please don't undervalue Justification. His sacrifice was enough, and we are allowed to die with unresolved issues if we have turned from sin, and are travelling towards Him. To say that we are not saved because we have not instantly emptied our bellies of beer, still crave cigarettes, and the thousand other things God will lead us to attend to, is to add works to the requirements of salvation, and Paul says "not by works, lest any man should boast". Obedience FOLLOWS conversion, it doesn't initiate it.

Need - Surrender - New Birth - Conversion - character - obedience. Is a cycle. Before your first conversion you would not could not obey - probably did not even know. Subsequeent conversions "dying daily" build upon the work of the first one.

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a small sample of SOP quotes .

It's a big subject.

“This is the new birth” = 1 hit

“By looking constantly to Jesus, from morn till eve, with the eye of faith, we shall be strengthened. God will make the most precious revelations to His hungering, thirsting people. They will find that Christ is a personal Savior. They feed upon His word, for it is spirit and life. This word kills the natural, earthly nature, and a new life in Christ Jesus is created. The Holy Spirit comes as a Comforter to them. Love takes the place of hatred, and the heart receives the mold of the divine similitude. The image of Christ is reproduced in the human agent, and by the transforming efficacy of the grace of Christ he becomes a new creature. "As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12,13). This is the new birth. {10MR 166.1}

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. . . . And of His fulness have all we received, and grace for grace" (verses 14,16). The yearning after entire conformity to the will of God, after His holiness and peace, opens the eyes of the understanding to see the doctrines of the Word. Thus God's children are strengthened and established; they are "steadfast, immoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 15:58). {10MR 166.2}
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“is the new birth” = 8 hits

In the beginning, man was created in the image of God. He was in perfect harmony with the nature and the law of God; the principles of righteousness were written upon his heart. But sin alienated him from his Maker. He no longer reflected the divine image. His heart was at war with the principles of God's law. . . . But "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son," that man might be reconciled to God. Through the merits of Christ he can be restored to harmony with his Maker. His heart must be renewed by divine grace; he must have a new life from above. This change is the new birth. . . . {AG 20.3}

The first step in reconciliation to God is the conviction of sin. . . . "By the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20). In order to see his guilt, the sinner must test his character by God's great standard of righteousness. It is a mirror which shows the perfection of a righteous character and enables him to discern the defects of his own. The law reveals to man his sin. . . . It declares that death is the portion of the transgressor. The gospel of Christ alone can free him from the condemnation or the defilement of sin. He must exercise repentance toward God, whose law has been transgressed; and faith in Christ, his atoning sacrifice. . . . {AG 20.4}

In the new birth the heart is brought into harmony with God, as it is brought into accord with His law. When this mighty change has taken place in the sinner, he has passed from death unto life, from sin unto holiness, from transgression and rebellion to obedience and loyalty. . . . {AG 20.5}

The followers of Christ are to become like Him--by the grace of God to form characters in harmony with the principles of His holy law. This is Bible sanctification. {AG 20.6}
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It is the work of conversion and sanctification to reconcile men to God, by bringing them into accord with the principles of his law. In the beginning, man was created in the image of God. He was in perfect harmony with the nature and the law of God; the principles of righteousness were written upon his heart. But sin alienated him from his Maker. He no longer reflected the divine image. His heart was at war with the principles of God's law. "The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." [ROM. 8:7.] But "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son," that man might be reconciled to God. Through the merits of Christ he can be restored to harmony with his Maker. His heart must be renewed by divine grace, he must have a new life from above. This change is the new birth, without which, says Jesus, "he cannot see the kingdom of God." {GC88 467.1}

The first step in reconciliation to God, is the conviction of sin. "Sin is the transgression of the law." "By the law is the knowledge of sin." [1 JOHN 3:4; ROM. 3:20.] In order to see his guilt, the sinner must test his character by God's great standard of righteousness. It is a mirror which shows the perfection of a righteous character, and enables him to discern the defects in his own. {GC88 467.2}

The law reveals to man his sins, but it provides no remedy. While it promises life to the obedient, it declares that death is the portion of the transgressor. The gospel of Christ alone can free him from the condemnation or the defilement of sin. He must exercise repentance toward God, whose law has been transgressed, and faith in Christ, his atoning sacrifice. Thus he obtains "remission of sins that are past," and becomes a partaker of the divine nature. He is a child of God, having received the spirit of adoption, whereby he cries, "Abba, Father!" {GC88 467.3}

Is he now free to transgress God's law? Says Paul: "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea, we establish the law." "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" And John declares, "This is the love of God, that we keep his commandments; and his commandments are not grievous." [ROM. 3:31; 6:2; 1 JOHN 5:3.] In the new birth the heart is brought into harmony with God, as it is brought into accord with his law. When this mighty change has taken place in the sinner, he has passed from death unto life, from sin unto holiness, from transgression and rebellion to obedience and loyalty. The old life of alienation from God has ended; the new life of reconciliation, of faith and love, has begun. Then "the righteousness of the law" will "be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." [ROM. 8:4.] And the language of the soul will be, "O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day." [PS. 119:97.] {GC88 468.1}

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." [PS. 19:7.] Without the law, men have no just conception of the purity and holiness of God, or of their own guilt and uncleanness. They have no true conviction of sin, and feel no need of repentance. Not seeing their lost condition as violators of God's law, they do not realize their need of the atoning blood of Christ. The hope of salvation is accepted without a radical change of heart or reformation of life. Thus superficial conversions abound, and multitudes are joined to the church who have never been united to Christ. {GC88 468.2}

Erroneous theories of sanctification, also, springing from neglect or rejection of the divine law, have a prominent place in the religious movements of the day. These theories are both false in doctrine, and dangerous in practical results; and the fact that they are so generally finding favor renders it doubly essential that all have a clear understanding of what the Scriptures teach upon this point. {GC88 468.3}

True sanctification is a Bible doctrine. The apostle Paul, in his letter to the Thessalonian church, declares, "This is the will of God, even your sanctification." And he prays, "The very God of peace sanctify you wholly." [1 THESS. 4:3; 5:23.] The Bible clearly teaches what sanctification is, and how it is to be attained. The Saviour prayed for his disciples, "Sanctify them through thy truth; thy Word is truth." [2 JOHN 17:17, 19.] And Paul teaches that believers are to be "sanctified by the Holy Ghost." [ROM. 15:16.] What is the work of the Holy Spirit? Jesus told his disciples, "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth." [JOHN 16:13.] And the psalmist says, "Thy law is the truth." By the Word and the Spirit of God are opened to men the great principles of righteousness embodied in his law. And since the law of God is "holy, and just, and good," a transcript of the divine perfection, it follows that a character formed by obedience to that law will be holy. Christ is a perfect example of such a character. He says, "I have kept my Father's commandments." "I do always those things that please him." [JOHN 15:10; 8:29.] The followers of Christ are to become like him,--by the grace of God, to form characters in harmony with the principles of his holy law. This is Bible sanctification. {GC88 469.1}

This work can be accomplished only through faith in Christ, by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God. Paul admonishes believers, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." [PHIL. 2:12, 13.] The Christian will feel the promptings of sin, but he will maintain a constant warfare against it. Here is where Christ's help is needed. Human weakness becomes united to divine strength, and faith exclaims, "Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." [1 COR. 15:57.] {GC88 469.2}

The Scriptures plainly show that the work of sanctification is progressive. When in conversion the sinner finds peace with God through the blood of the atonement, the Christian life has but just begun. Now he is to "go on unto perfection;" to grow up "unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Says the apostle Paul: "This one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." [PHIL. 3:13, 14.] And Peter sets before us the steps by which Bible sanctification is to be attained: "Giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. . . . If ye do these things, ye shall never fall." [2 PET. 1:5-10.] {GC88 470.1}

Those who experience the sanctification of the Bible will manifest a spirit of humility. Like Moses, they have had a view of the awful majesty of holiness, and they see their own unworthiness, in contrast with the purity and exalted perfection of the Infinite One. {GC88 470.2}

The prophet Daniel was an example of true sanctification. His long life was filled up with noble service for his Master. He was a man "greatly beloved" [DAN. 10:11.] of Heaven. Yet instead of claiming to be pure and holy, this honored prophet identified himself with the really sinful of Israel, as he pleaded before God in behalf of his people: "We do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies." "We have sinned, we have done wickedly." He declares, "I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people." And when at a later time the Son of God appeared, to give him instruction, he declares, "My comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." [DAN. 9:18, 15, 20; 10:8.] {GC88 470.3}

When Job heard the voice of the Lord out of the whirlwind, he exclaimed, "I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." [JOB 42:6.] It was when Isaiah saw the glory of the Lord, and heard the cherubim crying, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts," that he cried out, "Woe is me! for I am undone." [ISA. 6:3, 5.] Paul, after he was caught up into the third heaven, and heard things which it was not possible for a man to utter, speaks of himself as "less than the least of all saints." [2 COR. 12:2-4 (MARGIN); EPH. 3:8.] It was the beloved John, that leaned on Jesus' breast, and beheld his glory, who fell as one dead before the feet of the angel. [REV. 22:8.] {GC88 471.1}

There can be no self-exaltation, no boastful claim to freedom from sin, on the part of those who walk in the shadow of Calvary's cross. They feel that it was their sin which caused the agony that broke the heart of the Son of God, and this thought will lead them to self-abasement. Those who live nearest to Jesus discern most clearly the frailty and sinfulness of humanity, and their only hope is in the merit of a crucified and risen Saviour. {GC88 471.2}

The sanctification now gaining prominence in the religious world, carries with it a spirit of self-exaltation, and a disregard for the law of God, that mark it as foreign to the religion of the Bible. Its advocates teach that sanctification is an instantaneous work, by which, through faith alone, they attain to perfect holiness. "Only believe," say they, "and the blessing is yours." No further effort on the part of the receiver is supposed to be required. At the same time they deny the authority of the law of God, urging that they are released from obligation to keep the commandments. But is it possible for men to be holy, in accord with the will and character of God, without coming into harmony with the principles which are an expression of his nature and will, and which show what is well-pleasing to him? {GC88 471.3}

The desire for an easy religion, that requires no striving, no self-denial, no divorce from the follies of the world, has made the doctrine of faith, and faith only, a popular doctrine; but what saith the Word of God? Says the apostle James: "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? . . . Wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? . . . Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." [JAMES 2:14-24.] {GC88 472.1}

The testimony of the Word of God is against this ensnaring doctrine of faith without works. It is not faith that claims the favor of Heaven without complying with the conditions upon which mercy is to be granted. It is presumption; for genuine faith has its foundation in the promises and provisions of the Scriptures. {GC88 472.2}

Let none deceive themselves with the belief that they can become holy while willfully violating one of God's requirements. The commission of a known sin silences the witnessing voice of the Spirit, and separates the soul from God. "Sin is the transgression of the law." And "whosoever sinneth [transgresseth the law] hath not seen him, neither known him." [1 JOHN 3:6.] Though John in his epistles dwells so fully upon love, yet he does not hesitate to reveal the true character of that class who claim to be sanctified while living in transgression of the law of God. "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected." [1 JOHN 2:4, 5.] Here is the test of every man's profession. We cannot accord holiness to any man without bringing him to the measurement of God's only standard of holiness in Heaven and in earth. If men feel no weight of the moral law, if they belittle and make light of God's precepts, if they break one of the least of these commandments, and teach men so, they shall be of no esteem in the sight of Heaven, and we may know that their claims are without foundation. {GC88 472.3}
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“Nothing less than a practical acceptance and application of divine truth opens the kingdom of God to man. Only a pure and lowly heart, obedient and loving, firm in the faith and service of the Most High, can enter there. Jesus also declares that as "Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." The serpent in the wilderness was lifted upon a pole before the people, that all who had been stung unto death by the fiery serpent might look upon this brazen serpent, a symbol of Christ, and be instantly healed. But they must look in faith, or it would be of no avail. Just so must men look upon the Son of Man as their Saviour unto eternal life. Man had separated himself from God by sin. Christ brought his divinity to earth, veiled by humanity, in order to rescue man from his lost condition. Human nature is vile, and man's character must be changed before it can harmonize with the pure and holy in God's immortal kingdom. This transformation is the new birth. {2SP 133.1}

If man by faith takes hold of the divine love of God, he becomes a new creature through Christ Jesus. The world is overcome, human nature is subdued, and Satan is vanquished. In this important sermon to Nicodemus, Jesus unfolded before this noble Pharisee the whole plan of salvation, and his mission to the world. In none of his subsequent discourses did the Saviour explain so thoroughly, step by step, the work necessary to be done in the human heart, if it would inherit the kingdom of Heaven. He traced man's salvation directly to the love of the Father, which led him to give his Son unto death that man might be saved. {2SP 133.2}

Jesus was acquainted with the soil into which he cast the seeds of truth. For three years there was little apparent fruit. Nicodemus was never an enemy to Jesus, but he did not publicly acknowledge him. He was weighing matters with an exactitude that accorded with his nature. He watched the life-work of Jesus with intense interest. He pondered over his teachings and beheld his mighty works. The raising of Lazarus from the dead was an evidence of his Messiahship that could not be disputed in the mind of the learned Jew. {2SP 134.1}

Once, when the Sanhedrim council was planning the most effectual way of bringing about the condemnation and death of Jesus, his authoritative voice was heard in protest, "Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?" This brought a sharp rebuff from the chief priest, "Art thou also of Galilee? Search and look, for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet." Yet the council dispersed, for they could not obtain a unanimous assent to the condemnation of Jesus. {2SP 134.2}

The Jews suspected both Joseph and Nicodemus of being in sympathy with the Teacher of Galilee, and these men were not summoned when the council met that decided the fate of Jesus. The words spoken at night to a single man in the lonely mountain were not lost. When Nicodemus saw Jesus upon the cross, hanging like a malefactor between heaven and earth, yet praying for his murderers; when he witnessed the commotion of nature, in that awful hour when the sun was hidden and the earth reeled in space, when the rocks were split in sunder and the vail of the temple rent in twain; then he remembered the solemn teaching in the mountain: "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up." {2SP 134.3}

The scales fell from his eyes, and faith took the place of doubt and uncertainty. Beams of light streamed from the secret interview in the mountain and illuminated the cross of the Saviour. In that time of discouragement and danger, when the hearts of the disciples were failing them through doubt and fear, Joseph of Arimathea, a secret disciple of Jesus, came forward and obtained the Lord's body from Pilate, and Nicodemus, who at the first came to Jesus by night, brought a hundred pounds' weight of myrrh and aloes. These two men with their own hands performed the last sacred rites, and laid the body of the Saviour in a new sepulchre where never man lay before. These lofty rulers of the Jews mingled their tears together over the sacred form of the dead. {2SP 135.1}

Now, when the disciples were scattered and discouraged, Nicodemus came boldly to the front. He was rich, and he employed his wealth to sustain the infant church of Christ, that the Jews thought would be blotted out with the death of Jesus. He who had been so cautious and questioning, now, in the time of peril, was firm as the granite rock, encouraging the flagging faith of the followers of Christ, and furnishing means to carry on the cause. He was defrauded, persecuted, and stigmatized by those who had paid him reverence in other days. He became poor in this world's goods, yet he faltered not in the faith that had its beginning in that secret night conference with the young Galilean. {2SP 135.2}

Nicodemus related to John the story of that interview, and his inspired pen recorded it for the instruction of millions. The vital truths there taught are as important today as they were that solemn night in the shadowy mountain, when the mighty Jewish ruler came to learn the way of life from the lowly carpenter of Nazareth. {2SP 136.1}

Edward, thank you for those awesome quotes. I'm not sure what you got out of them, but to me they clearly teach that before we can live in harmony with the example of Jesus self must first be crucified and then we can experience the miracle of rebirth.

Zyph, I'm not sure I understand all of your objections to this interpetation of salvation and the new birth experience, but you said plainly that God can indeed take a willing soul and remake him into the image and likeness of his Maker - and that's what I believe too. It's just that I also believe that we begin at conversion where Christ began as a child - morally equipped with all the attributes and fruit of the Spirit, but needing to mature and develop over time.

Dozens of EGW passages have been quoted throughout this thread which plainly teach that self must first die before we can be renewed in Christ. But for whatever reason you seem to think that we can be full of beer and all manner of unconquered moral imperfections and still be considered a born again believer saved in God's everlasting kingdom regardless. Or did I misunderstand you?

No.

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: zyph ]

Okay. Perhaps we're crossing wires? I'm not saying we have to be completely, totally, 100% free of all our moral imperfections in order to be saved in the first resurrection. I imagine lots of people will come up in the first resurrection who died before they were able to experience freedom from sin in every facet of their lives. But it was in there heart and mind to escape the corruption that is in the world through lust, and they would have if they had not died first.

But would you agree that people who play church and pay lip service to the truth (in other words, lukewarm Laodiceans) are not in the same category as the one described above? They are placid apostates. Do you expect to see them in heaven? If not, then we're talking about the same thing now.

And what about the translation generation of end time believers - the 144,000? Don't you think they are also in a different class? Will they be translated alive with a belly full of beer, or a mouth full of profanity? If not, then once again we're on the same page.

I'm talking about people who have made a decision to follow Christ. Laodiceans have not made that decision. They are token Christians who have no longing for righteousness. It goes without saying that the conversation isn't about such people.

I'm disputing that conversion occurs anywhere except at the place of turning. When we are turned around, we begin walking in the new life, learning how to unite with God to overcome. I promise you, when I was converted, a whole new life was born in me. My desires and thoughts changed. I wanted to be wherever God's people were and wherever God's word was being shared. I loved the Lord, and was amazed that He could die for me. I always had trouble grasping that concept. Many "sins" simply left me. Others, I had to do practical things, in His strength, to overcome. (Caffeine addiction, for example.) I was living a simple life, serving Him where I could. But I was not perfect, and I had not learned, for a long time, the secret of how to walk with God. So I was sincere, I believed the truth, but I was still struggling with some moral issues, and still moving forward. I had the fruits of the Spirit evident in my life, and I was bringing others to Christ. Until the day the devil broke out the big guns, and I fell and became discouraged, and took my eyes off Jesus, and turned away. Now, if I had died before I fell, was I lost? I was completely committed to the Lord. (I can almost hear you judging me, saying my commitment couldn't have been real or I would have stayed. But that might not be fair to you.) When I keep reading that moral perfection is a condition of being born again, I want to leave and never come back, because that is impossible. And I have been swayed by your assertions at times to the point of deep discouragement. I believe God doesn't hear my prayers because I'm a sinner, ans if He can't save me until I'm perfect, there is no hope.

But i have had a living experience which keeps bringing me back to this point: The ONLY possibility is that we are born again, and then we can be empowered. Love for God and the FACT of our salvation are the entire basis of our desire to change FOR HIS NAME'S SAKE.

The 144,000 appear to be a separate group, who, because of the situation on the planet at the time they exist, MUST be different. I like Venden's interpretation of "the hour of God's judgment is come". He says God is up for judgment, and this generation will be the final proof, if you will, that God is not a liar, because a generation of people can demonstrate that it is possible to obey. The devil said it isn't possible.

Since this group will be sealed, and have passed through the time of trouble, etc, they won't consist of new converts, so the issues of starting where God finds us will have been dealt with already.

I would need to study the subject properly before I said more, but that is my perception, albeit limited.

Mike, some people who appear to be placid apostates may be closer to God than you think. Be careful of how you judge them. I had an impression of one middle class couple, who never seemed to spend much time socialising with any of the circles in the church I attended. I thought they were workers in the church, but not committed. Then I found out the woman had sewn four dresses for a little motherless girl, whose father was bringing her to church in awful track suits, and quietly left them at his house. There were lots of quiet acts of christianity, and I was humbled by realising how kind they were. It gave me a new perspective.

I appreciate your intent. Don't get me wrong. I believe you love the Lord, and are enthusiastic about the possibilities in the faith relationship. I believe you are attempting to win souls. I give you this feedback - which may or may not be fair - because it has laid heavily on me at times. I acknowlege that you are the converted person, and I am not, so I may need some eyesalve (try a bucketful!) And I like and respect you.

Have a lovely Sabbath day.

Dear Zyph,
If God didn't hear the prayers of "sinners," then consider me "toast," right now!! In the days when I was not WALKING in His will, I was still reading the Bible and SOP, certainly not on the regular basis I do now, and, I was praying, also.
What I knew was the "right" thing to do, I could not do. There was a couple in our church I had known since my baptism. When they told me they called my name daily in prayer, it felt like it broke my heart. I believe that was the BEGINNING of my long road back to a close relationship with Jesus. I truly believe that my feeble prayers during that time, my small reaching out to Him caused the Holy Spirit to be able to work with me more, (I know He was always pleading with me) and to gradually lead me into a deeper experience with God than I had ever experienced before. But, as I have told you, it has been through the fires of great emotional affliction. He has had to allow them, even put me through some of them, to burn out the dross, and it seems to be somewhat of an ongoing thing. I surely have not "attained," as Paul stated, but "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."

In Christ's Love,

Dora

All the theories and debates are empty without the testimony of a lived life, aren't they, Dora? The prayer thing: I was convinced of this on another - archived - topic. I'll look for it, but it might no longer be there. If it is, I'll bring it to the top again, and you can read it for yourself. I still pray, and I know God wants the best for me, but I don't think my prayers are accepted in the way those of a converted person are. I don't know. A couple of things on this forum have made me question my beliefs, and I've been discouraged about my previous experience.

Zyph, thank you for sticking it out with this study. I have suspected for awhile now that you are struggling with this topic. And I think you should know that you have been secretly in my prayers.

For years I was pretty proud of how God was working in my life. The contrast between who I once used to be and who I was in the Lord was like black and white. But I kept wrestling with impatience. All too often I found myself short with my children, my wife, others and myself. And really bothered me. I truly believed in the gift and promises of God, and yet it seemed to elude me. And then one day my wife got upset with me and said - All your talk about overcoming sin is no better than jibberish.

That stunned me. Especially since I had to admit it was true. It so discouraged me that I eventually backslid and left the church altogether. About a year and half later my wife, who kept attending church and having worship with the kids, invited James Rafferty (a long time friend) to have Bible studies at our house. Within a few months I was hooked again.

However, my problem with impatience seemed to regain momentum. I was not having as much trouble with it during the time I was backslidden. The evil one can be shrewd, eh? So I ended up developing an evolutionary belief system concerning victory and overcoming deep seated defects of character.

I finally came to the conclusion that the easier imperfections are quick to overcome (for me it was things like hard rock, bad TV, and cursing), and that the harder ones must undergo a type of devolution where the Holy Spirit, over the course of many years, empowers us to gradually gain control over them. But this only made matters worse for me.

How? Because now instead of expecting God to give me victory over impatience and I unconsciously excused it, thinking that in future God would take care of it in His own time. After awhile I even quit repenting of my impatience, which seemed to lessen again, because I reasoned that if God was willing to be patient with my impatience, then so should I. And guess what? My wife ended up divorcing me! She just couldn't stand my impatience.

But my theology was unphased. And two years later I married my second wife. As it turned out her major weakness is intolerance. What a combination, eh? Could I ever tell you some stories. But both of us were determined to stay married, though at one point it got close to divorce.

Her intolerance frequently forced me to exercise super human effort at being patient, but it was often not enough to avoid abject frustration. Then I began to plead with God to speed up His plan for giving me victory over impatience. Living with my intolerant wife made being impatient a luxury I could not afford to live with. I wanted a short cut over impatience because I wanted to keep my wife. And God started to answer my prayer right away.

I began to discover that the Bible and the SOP nowhere endorses my idea of gradually overcoming impatience. I found out that victory is a miraculous gift that defies human logic and human timing. Amazingly I learned that resisting temptation is a gift God promises now, not later on. And that it is my privilege and prerogative to live without sin now.

At first though I stubbornly resisted what I was reading, because I didn't want to end up like I was before my first wife left me. But within 6 months I was convinced of the truth. And the good news changed my life radically. Now when I'm tempted to be impatient, I no longer anticipate failure, instead I now totally expect victory - based on keeping my eyes on Jesus and claiming His victory verses.

A phrase from the audio book version of Pilgrims Progress, by Jim Pappas (sp?), continually inspires me - We cannot achieve what we cannot believe. Jesus said it this way - "According to your faith be it unto you." Mat 9:29. Now I tackle temptation believing victory is mine even before the fight begins. I know in Jesus I am an overcomer, therefore I completely anticipate victory, I envision it before it's a reality, and more often than not the victory is sweeter and more complete than my imagination foretold.

And my wife? What does she think? She's thoroughly delighted with her new husband - me! But not half as pleased as I am. Thank you Jesus!!! And my wife's intolerance? Well, bless her heart, she's improving. But more and more she is believing the truth about overcoming. And I have only Jesus to thank for that. I love my wife. She's a precious soul. I look forward to spending eternity with her. But more than anything I want her to have the blessed peace of mind that comes with victory and trusting in Jesus to give her power over intolerance.

That's my story. It's a never ending story. And I praise God for delivering me from a distorted view of victory. I can't help but to share it with others. I only hope and pray that as I share it people will not become unnecessarily overwhelmed and discouraged, but rather that they will rejoice in it as I have.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Is moral perfection sinlessness now, or is it on the road to sinlessness when this frail and sinful human body receives a glorious new and sinless body?

Maybe we can answer this by getting more personal.

Can anybody claim moral perfection or sinlessness now? In other words, can anybody claim that they haven't sinned in the last 20 years, 20 months, 20 weeks, 20 days, or even in the last 20 hours?

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

---

Ha! Daryl

I couldn't resist...

How about the last 20 minutes? I might be able to prove that one.

There are many who try to reform by correcting this or that bad
habit, and they hope in this way to become Christians, but they
are beginning in the wrong place. Our first work is with the
heart. COL 97.

I may have mentioned this somewhere previously, however, I know a couple who stopped coming to church on account of their addiction to smoking. They feel they must give that up before they can come back to church. They don't realize, or they have forgotten, that all they need to do is to come to Jesus just as they are so that He can do a good work in them.

If we wait until we consider ourself worthy or pefect, then we will never either come to Jesus or come to church.

As a pastor people have said to me, I can't come to church any more because I know in my heart I'm not willing to live up to the standards of the church. In most cases their problem had to do with smoking, drinking, common law relationships or working on the Sabbath.

Are they right in staying away from the church since they are unwilling to leave off this or that certain sin? I think so. I did the same thing when I was back slidden and working on the Sabbath. That is, I quit going to church.

But thank God the church didn't quit coming to me. Friends from the church kept coming around to visit, helping out however they could in tangible ways. Within a year and half I was back in the church, no longer working on the Sabbath.

BTW, in light of conversion, what do the rest of you think about this scripture?

1 Peter
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.

This passage tells me that new born babes begin without sin and grow thereafter. Am I misunderstanding this reference?

Hi All,

I see a few people that I recognize from other forums here.

I have a little something to throw in the pot here on this subject of conversion and when it happens. If we take the life of Peter as an example, we see that he had spent 3 years with Jesus, and Jesus told him on the way to the Garden of Gethsemane that he wasn't converted.

quote:

---

The influence of the world did not prevail with Peter. He was converted, and after the resurrection of Christ, he was endowed with the Holy Spirit, and then with boldness charged the rulers with their guilt in putting Christ to death. He said, "Ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; and killed the Prince of life." After his conversion, Peter showed that he was an entirely changed man. He was not the self-confident, boasting Peter that he had been before his conversion. And when the enemies of Christ threatened him, and charged him that he should not teach any more in the name of Jesus, and bring this man's blood upon them, their threatening did not intimidate the servant of Christ. He did not turn coward, but with the other apostles proclaimed the name of Christ until they were all shut up in prison.

---

We don't see this Peter until on the Sea of Galilee after Christ's resurrection when Jesus stuck the verbal needles into Peter by repeatedly asking Peter if he loved his Master. So, when does conversion take place? I put forward that this is as individual as each persons experience with God. To place a one size fits all in this matter I believe would be greatly damaging to those with whom God works for many years before they finally understand what true conversion is. Only the Holy Spirit can bring this about, and only the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit know the correct timing for each individual.

Mike, if you really believe that sinners shouldn't go to church, is that in harmony with Christian belief? Do you stay home if you sin? Sorry, but I'm really shocked at that statement. I was always told church was a hospital for sin-sick people, not an exclusive club for prior overcomers. Maybe we should make the doorways smaller.

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: zyph ]

Gary, welcome to this forum. I'm glad you've decided to join us. We are a friendly, if not fiesty bunch. I look forward to your future comments. And I very much agree with your post above. Indeed, conversion is a personalized thing. However, don't you also think there are predictable principles that God follows as He draws each one of us to that magical moment?

Zyph, I'm sorry my posts have been so unsettling for you lately. In truth I agree with you that the church is a hospital for sinners. But I think you would agree that there are more than one kind of sinner. There are those who desire to be set free from their defects of character, there are those who choose to cling to their pet sins and do not intend to give them up, and then there are those who want to be free of sin but not do quite understand what is and what is not a sin.

Of these types of sinners I've been talking specifically about those who do NOT intend to give up their pet sins and wish to attend church as though everything were just fine and normal, and even expect the rest of God's people to accept them and fellowship with them as though their sins did not matter.

But the Bible gives very pointed instruction as to how we should associate with these kinds of sinners.

Matthew
18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.

2 Thessalonians
3:13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
3:15 Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother.

Titus
3:10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;
3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

1 Corinthians
5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Romans
16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

2 Thessalonians
3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

2 John
1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:
1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Please realize that these Bible passages do not teach us to totally avoid those church members who refuse to walk worthy of their calling and election. It's saying, at least to me, that we should avoid hanging out with them as though their sinful choices mean nothing, but instead we should admonish them and work with them as we would an unconverted person. We must also be careful we don't get sucked into their marginal mind set, that Laodicean lukewarmness. It's a delicate matter to be sure.

But Zyph, please know that I'm not advocating that we should dismiss struggling church members who are sincerely trying to serve God will all their heart, mind, body and soul, who truly want help tapping into the power of God to overcome their weaknesses. These kinds of people are not at all like those who do not want to give up their pet sins.

Does that sound more like what you believe?

Gary K, please read Luke 10:20. If Peter's name was written in the book of life already, why on earth would he not have been converted then?

Mike, I see no scripture that encourages wilful sinners to stay away from church. If God wanted them to stay away, He'd surely have said to lock the doors. Are you going to be the arbiter in who is the wilful sinner? And do you visit absolutely every missing church-goer, being certain that no-one has been missed?

The Good Shepherd goes in search of the missing sheep to bring it IN to the fold. Bo-Peep theology says "They know where to find us as soon as they're willing to be good enough to meet our standards".

Zyph,

I guess that is one question you will have to ask Peter and Jesus. They are the only one that know the answer. We only have Jesus' statement to the fact that Peter hadn't been converted.

quote:

---

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

---

What follows is from the Desire of Ages in the chapter titled Let Not Your Heart Be Troubled, page 673.

quote:

---

After the hymn, they went out. Through the crowded streets they made their way, passing out of the city gate toward the Mount of Olives. Slowly they proceeded, each busy with his own thoughts. As they began to descend toward the mount, Jesus said, in a tone of deepest sadness, "All ye shall be offended because of Me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad." Matt. 26:31. The disciples listened in sorrow and amazement. They remembered how in the synagogue at Capernaum, when Christ spoke of Himself as the bread of life, many had been offended, and had turned away from Him. But the twelve had not shown themselves unfaithful. Peter, speaking for his brethren, had then declared his loyalty to Christ. Then the Saviour had said, "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" John 6:70. In the upper chamber Jesus said that one of the twelve would betray Him, and that Peter would deny Him. But now His words include them all.

Now Peter's voice is heard vehemently protesting, "Although all shall be offended, yet will not I." In the upper chamber he had declared, "I will lay down my life for Thy sake." Jesus had warned him that he would that very night deny his Saviour. Now Christ repeats the warning: "Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny Me thrice." But Peter only "spake the more vehemently, If I should die with Thee, I will not deny Thee in anywise. Likewise also said they all." Mark 14:29, 30, 31. In their self-confidence they denied the repeated statement of Him who knew. They were unprepared for the test; when temptation should overtake them, they would understand their own weakness.

When Peter said he would follow his Lord to prison and to death, he meant it, every word of it; but he did not know himself. Hidden in his heart were elements of evil that circumstances would fan into life. Unless he was made conscious of his danger, these would prove his eternal ruin. The Saviour saw in him a self-love and assurance that would overbear even his love for Christ. Much of infirmity, of unmortified sin, carelessness of spirit, unsanctified temper, heedlessness in entering into temptation, had been revealed in his experience. Christ's solemn warning was a call to heart searching. Peter needed to distrust himself, and to have a deeper faith in Christ. Had he in humility received the warning, he would have appealed to the Shepherd of the flock to keep His sheep. When on the Sea of Galilee he was about to sink, he cried, "Lord, save me." Matt. 14:30. Then the hand of Christ was outstretched

Page 674
to grasp his hand. So now if he had cried to Jesus, Save me from myself, he would have been kept. But Peter felt that he was distrusted, and he thought it cruel. He was already offended, and he became more persistent in his self-confidence.

---

Look what Ellen White has to say was the motivating factor behind Peter's behavior--self-confidence--rather than trust in the words of Jesus who knows the heart of each of us. I think it is this trust in self that determines whether or not we are truly converted or not. Jesus told us that we can't serve both God and mammon. Or in other words we can only have one master at a time. If we are full of self-confidence in our own spiritual abilities are we really worshipping God, or are we worshipping ourselves, our ideas, our opinions?

What follows is another quote from Ellen White about Peter before his conversion. This Peter can be seen in the Bible stories that include in very clearly.

quote:

---

The Pharisee and the publican represent two great classes into which those who come to worship God are divided. Their first two representatives are found in the first two children that were born into the world. Cain thought himself righteous, and he came to God with a thank offering only. He made no confession of sin, and acknowledged no need of mercy. But Abel came with the blood that pointed to the Lamb of God. He came as a sinner, confessing himself lost; his only hope was the unmerited love of God. The Lord had respect to his offering, but to Cain and his offering He had not respect. The sense of need, the recognition of our poverty and sin, is the very first condition of acceptance with God. "Blessed are the poor in spirit; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:3.

For each of the classes represented by the Pharisee and the publican there is a lesson in the history of the apostle Peter. In his early discipleship Peter thought himself strong. Like the Pharisee, in his own estimation he was "not as other men are." When Christ on the eve of His betrayal forewarned His disciples, "All ye shall be offended because of Me this night," Peter confidently declared, "Although all shall be offended, yet will not I." Mark 14:27, 29. Peter did not know his own danger. Self-confidence misled him. He thought himself able to withstand temptation; but in a few short hours the test came, and with cursing and swearing he denied his Lord.

When the crowing of the cock reminded him of the words of Christ, surprised and shocked at what he had just

Page 154
done he turned and looked at his Master. At that moment Christ looked at Peter, and beneath that grieved look, in which compassion and love for him were blended, Peter understood himself. He went out and wept bitterly. That look of Christ's broke his heart. Peter had come to the turning point, and bitterly did he repent his sin. He was like the publican in his contrition and repentance, and like the publican he found mercy. The look of Christ assured him of pardon.
Now his self-confidence was gone. Never again were the old boastful assertions repeated.

---

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Gary K ]

The word interpreted "converted" in Luke 22: 32 means "turned again". See the NASB. Therefore, he had been "turned" or converted prior to that.

In your quote from the Desire of Ages, there is this line, "But the twelve had not shown themselves unfaithful." Doesn't this speak for itself?

Could it be that the committed Peter was going to backslide, and from the lessons learned at that time, he would cross a line into a more mature, but no more relevant relationship with Christ?

Isn't there growth allowed in the Christian life? Mark 4: 28, "The soil produces crops by itself; first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head."

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: zyph ]

Mike,

I agree that God works by the same principles with each of us. But, we all have different understandings, different starting points, different personalities, different characters, and I truly believe God modifies His approach to fit each on of us.

I don't believe God will work the same way with a person who has been born into the church, is self-righteous, of an outgoing personality and has never suffered any real pain in his life as with a drug addict who was raised without the benefit of any education in the things of God, has been abused as a child, is of a withdrawn type of personality, and has always been scorned and taken advantage of by those who are self-righteous members of the church.

I have spent considerable time in the last ten years studying personality types. In that study I have found each personality will learn differently. Each one will respond differently to outside pressures. Each one will respond differently to shame and guilt. Each one of us has different levels of ability to trust anyone. God has all of these aspects of human psychology, and many more, to deal with in approaching us to convince us to give Him our hearts, hurts, pains, joys, sorrows, and lives. To approach each of these people in the same way would be foolish. Even we as humans are beginning to understand that.

Zyph,

I think that the real question here between us is: what is conversion?

To me conversion means much more than a statement of beleif.

Why don't you explain your idea of conversion and we can go from there? This is an interesting study.

I believe conversion - "turning" - is precisely that. The moment you have made a decision to follow Christ, you are converted. You might not be very good at allowing Him to control you. You might have many things to learn about the faith relationship. You might not even know about the Sabbath, but you have decided to follow, or walk with Him. And the disciples - except for Judas - had totally committed their lives to Jesus. They HAD given up homes and jobs and families (Mark 10:28). Peter was completely committed after he repented of denying Christ, which indicates that there had been a period of growth prior to this, when he was still a "plant", but an immature one.

Hi Zyph,

I think this is where we differ. It is in what we consider to be conversion. Conversion to me is reaching that point in our relationship with God where we truly understand that we can't do anything on our own power and surrender our will completely. Up until that point we have divided loyalties. We want to do things our own way, rather than God's way. While we may wish to be converted while we are in the position of trusting partly to us, and partly to God, we aren't.

To turn again, as you said, means to go in the opposite direction. Since a relationship with God and conversion are all about surrender of all of us, we aren't going in the opposite direction of our former life when we aren't fully surrendered. We are still tracking along on the same old trail. We may be saying different things, and doing different things, but our motivation hasn't had that inner cleansing yet, as per the lesson from Peter's life. It is our inner motivations that truly matter, for it is what comes out of the heart of a man that defiles him.

Go read Jesus' statements about those who won't, or don't leave all to follow Him. He says that they aren't worthy of Him.

We have many idols, but the biggest one of all is self. Until that is completely surrendered, we are basically still idolators in my estimation.

So until we reach your idea of conversion we are not saved?

I can remember praying a few years back and telling God what sins I wanted to conquer in my life next. I had it all planned out just how my sanctification ought to go. Do you think it was successful? Hardly! It taught me a great lesson. I was still not converted. I wanted to tell God how to do things. Just like Peter before the crucifixion.

Zacchaeus did that to Jesus, but Jesus didn't correct him.

I'd like to add here that Enoch, Daniel, and Elisha are the only people mentioned in scripture who became converted, and no sin was ever recorded against their name afterward. How do you explain that?

Zyph,

You are reading more into my statements than I said. What I said was we have to come to a state of complete surrender. Peter made a mistake or two after his conversion, but, and this is a large but, he was not the same person after his conversion as he was before.

Surrender of self (conversion) is accompanied by an attitude that was not previously present in the life: one of complete trust in God. Rather than partly trusting to self, and partly trusting to God. This trust in God results in the changes seen in the life because it allows God to cleanse the soul of sin. (He can't take what we won't give Him.)

quote:

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Evangelism, page 286, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Clinching the Interest
Helping Souls to Be Converted
The Experience of Genuine Conversion.--I have been shown that many have confused ideas in regard to conversion. They have often heard the words repeated from the pulpit, "Ye must be born again." "You must have a new heart." These expressions have perplexed them. They could not comprehend the plan of salvation.

Many have stumbled to ruin because of the erroneous doctrines taught by some ministers concerning the change that takes place at conversion. Some have lived in sadness for years, waiting for some marked evidence that they were accepted by God. They have separated themselves in a large measure from the world, and find pleasure in associating with the people of God; yet they dare not profess Christ, because they fear it would be presumption to say that they are children of God. They are waiting for that peculiar change that they have been led to believe is connected with conversion.

Others fall into a more dangerous error. They are governed by impulse. Their sympathies are stirred, and they regard this flight of feeling as an evidence

287
that they are accepted by God and are converted. But the principles of their life are not changed. The evidences of a genuine work of grace on the heart are to be found not in feeling, but in the life. "By their fruits," Christ declared, "ye shall know them."

Many precious souls, desiring earnestly to be Christians, are yet stumbling in darkness, waiting for their feelings to be powerfully exercised. They look for a special change to take place in their feelings. They expect some irresistible force, over which they have no control, to overpower them. They overlook the fact that the believer in Christ is to work out his salvation with fear and trembling.

The convicted sinner has something to do besides repent; he must act his part in order to be accepted by God. He must believe that God accepts his repentance, according to His promise. "Without faith it is impossible to please Him: for He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."

The work of grace upon the heart is not an instantaneous work. It is effected by continuous, daily watching and believing the promises of God. The repentant, believing one, who cherishes faith and earnestly desires the renewing grace of Christ, God will not turn away empty. He will give him grace. And ministering angels will aid him as he perseveres in his efforts to advance.-- Manuscript 55, 1910.

---

I think that this quote is a pretty good definition of what conversion is. It isn't just a feeling, it isn't just a statement of belief, but is an earnest desiring to be cleansed of sin and a moment by moment trusting in God to cleanse us from sin, while we at the same time turn to God for the power and grace to change our characters in each and every temptation.

Can we still fail, falter, or sin, yes. We aren't perfect yet, but we do have an attitude that in harmony with God's will for us. Thus we grow in grace. Who is to say who is perfect? Even those men in the Bible who lived the closest to God never claimed perfection for themselves. To say I am perfect is not something any truly trusting, believeing servant of God would say, for he will understand that without His power any reflection of Jesus in his life is not of his own making. We can cooperate in the perfecting of our characters, but we can never accomplish anything on our own.

Do I think that a person who has a perfected character is beyond sinning? No. Not until after the 2nd coming.

I'm sorry, but I don't think God gives the ability to heal people and cast out demons to the unconverted, yet Peter was one who did this prior to his "turning again".

Judas was not converted ever. Yet Jesus empowered him to work miracles, just like Peter. The miracle working power was because the Lord temporarily invested Judas & all the rest of the twelve as His representatives.
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“2 (ch. 15:1-8; see EGW on Luke 22:3-5). Judas a Dry Sapling.-- Judas . . . did not become transformed, and converted into a living branch through connection with the True Vine. This dry sapling adhered not to the Vine until it grew into a fruitful, living branch. He revealed that he was the graft that did not bear fruit--the graft that did not, fiber by fiber and vein by vein, become knit with the Vine, and partake of its life. {5BC 1138.4}
The dry, disconnected sapling can become one with the parent vine stock only by being made a partaker of the life and nourishment of the living vine, by being grafted into the vine, by being brought into the closest relationship possible. Fiber by fiber, vein by vein, the twig holds fast to the life-giving vine, until the life of the vine becomes the life of the branch, and it produces fruit like that of the vine (RH Nov. 16, 1897). {5BC 1138.5}
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Before Jesus’s trial Peter was not converted in the sense of full surrender & letting Jesus be the boss.
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“But Peter ardently affirmed that although all others should be offended because of Him, he would not be offended. Jesus said to Peter: "Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Luke 22:31,32. {EW 166.1}
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“The church of Christ on earth will be imperfect, but God does not destroy His church because of its imperfection. There have been and will be those who are filled with zeal not according to knowledge, who would purify the church, and uproot the tares from the midst of the wheat. But Christ has given special light as to how to deal with those who are erring, and with those who are unconverted in the church. There is to be no spasmodic, zealous, hasty action taken by church members in cutting off those they may think defective in character. Tares will appear among the wheat; but it would do more harm to weed out the tares, unless in God's appointed way, than to leave them alone. While the Lord brings into the church those who are truly converted, Satan at the same time brings persons who are not converted into its fellowship. While Christ is sowing the good seed, Satan is sowing the tares. There are two opposing influences continually exerted on the members of the church. One influence is working for the purification of the church, and the other for the corrupting of the people of God. {TM 46.1}

Judas Given Opportunities

Jesus knew that Judas was defective in character, but notwithstanding this, He accepted him as one of the disciples, and gave him the same opportunities and privileges that He gave to the others whom He had chosen. Judas was left without excuse in the evil course he afterward pursued. Judas might have become a doer of the word, as were eventually Peter and James and John and the other disciples. Jesus gave precious lessons of instruction, so that those who were associated with Him might have been converted, and have no need of clinging to the defects that marred their characters. {TM 46.2}

The Church Not Perfect

Some people seem to think that upon entering the church they will have their expectations fulfilled, and meet only with those who are pure and perfect. They are zealous in their faith, and when they see faults in church members, they say, "We left the world in order to have no association with evil characters, but the evil is here also;" and they ask, as did the servants in the parable, "From whence then hath it tares?" But we need not be thus disappointed, for the Lord has not warranted us in coming to the conclusion that the church is perfect; and all our zeal will not be successful in making the church militant as pure as the church triumphant. The Lord forbids us to proceed in any violent way against those whom we think erring, and we are not to deal out excommunications and denunciations to those who are faulty. {TM 47.1}

Finite man is likely to misjudge character, but God does not leave the work of judgment and pronouncing upon character to those who are not fitted for it. We are not to say what constitutes the wheat, and what the tares. The time of the harvest will fully determine the character of the two classes specified under the figure of the tares and the wheat. The work of separation is given to the angels of God, and not committed into the hands of any man. {TM 47.2}

False doctrine is one of the satanic influences that work in the church, and brings into it those who are unconverted in heart. Men do not obey the words of Jesus Christ, and thus seek for unity in faith, spirit, and doctrine. They do not labor for the unity of spirit for which Christ prayed, which would make the testimony of Christ's disciples effective in convincing the world that God had sent His Son into the world, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." If the unity for which Christ prayed existed among the people of God, they would bear living testimony, would send forth a bright light to shine amid the moral darkness of the world. {TM 47.3}
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“But Judas stopped short of this. He had not received Christ as his personal Saviour. He did not think that his character needed the transforming grace of Christ. In many respects he acted as Christ's disciple. He manifested an interest in his work, and in a certain sense believed on him. But Christ read beneath the surface. He saw the true inwardness of the heart. He knew that Judas was not converted. He was not a true son of God. He had not lost something he once possessed. He had never experienced the soul cleansing, the change of character, that constitutes conversion. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 2}

Judas had valuable qualities, but there were some traits in his character that would have to be cut away before he could be saved. He must be born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible. His great hereditary and cultivated tendency to evil was covetousness. And by practise this became a habit which he carried into all his trading. His economical habits developed a parsimonious spirit, and became a fatal snare. Gain was his measurement of a correct religious experience, and all true righteousness became subordinate to this. Christlike principles of uprightness and justice had no room in his life practices. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 3}

When Judas first united with the twelve, he manifested a spirit subordinate to his Master. He loved the great Teacher. He had listened to the parables illustrating the gospel of the kingdom of God, and he desired to be with the man whose teaching he knew to be superior to anything he had ever heard, although it was condemnatory of all pretense, hypocrisy, and avarice. There came to him a desire to be changed in spirit and inclination, and he hoped to experience this by connecting himself with Christ. Yes; in the companionship of Christ, Judas might have found continual strength and aid; he might have co-operated with Christ in overcoming temptation, instead of yielding to the suggestions of Satan. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 4}

Knowing that he was being corrupted by covetousness, Christ gave him the privilege of hearing many precious lessons. He heard Christ laying down the principles which all must possess who would enter his kingdom. He was given every opportunity to receive Christ as his personal Saviour, but he refused this gift. He would not yield his way and will to Christ. He did not practise that which was contrary to his own inclinations; therefore his strong avaricious spirit was not corrected. While he continued a disciple in outward form, and while in the very presence of Christ, he appropriated to himself means that belonged to the Lord's treasury. {RH, October 5, 1897 par. 5}

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God was still unknown to Judas as a living God, a loving Father. The life of Judas was not hid with Christ in God. That poor, independent soul, separate from the spirit and life of Christ, had a hard time. He was ever under condemnation, because the lessons of Christ were always cutting him. Yet he did not become transformed, and converted into a living branch through connection with the True Vine. This dry sapling adhered not to the Vine until it grew into a fruitful, living branch. He revealed that he was the graft that did not bear fruit,--the graft that did not, fiber by fiber and vein by vein, become knit with the Vine, and partake of its life. {RH, November 16, 1897 par. 14}

The dry, disconnected sapling can become one with the parent vine stock only by being made a partaker of the life and nourishment of the living vine, by being grafted into the vine, by being brought into the closest relationship possible. Fiber by fiber, vein by vein, the twig holds fast to the life-giving vine, until the life of the vine becomes the life of the branch, and it produces fruit like that of the vine. {RH, November 16, 1897 par. 15}

This is so with the follower of Christ. When he is truly connected with Christ, he will not be like those disciples who were offended because their own minds were not spiritual. They saw the truths that pleased them; but when they came to hear something they could not explain or reason out, because they were not in vital connection with Christ, they were offended. They turned away, and walked no more with him. It was better that these fruitless branches should reveal themselves while Christ was with them. It was for this reason that the words of Christ were spoken, that these disciples might be proved to be just what they were,--not of the faith, but among those that believed not. Just as long as they were with Christ, they revealed a spirit of unbelief. They found the words of Christ opposed to their ideas and maxims, and bore no fruit as branches of the Living Vine. {RH, November 16, 1897 par. 16}

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The history of Judas is written for our learning. He was a betrayer of sacred trusts. He had an opportunity to become converted, heart and soul, to Christ. The Saviour bore long with his perversity and defects of character. He gave no personal rebuke; he dealt with him by revealing principles of righteousness. But this was not enough. Before he left his disciples, he desired them to know the true character of Judas, and he reproved him for his covetousness in rebuking Mary for her use of the ointment. {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 8}

Christ washed the feet of Judas. This was the time for Judas to confess his sin, and ask the forgiveness of Christ. This was his opportunity to accept Christ, or to shut the door of his heart against the light. The promptings of the Spirit were repressed. Judas partook of the broken body and spilled blood of his Lord, and went out from the table to betray his Master. He would not receive counsel nor reproof; he was determined to have his own way, to follow his own impulses. {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 9}

We have far greater light than Judas had. We have a crucified, risen, and ascended Saviour, who ever liveth to make intercession for us. The Lord reveals to men their danger, and warns them to put away all selfishness, that they may have that faith which works by love and purifies the soul. Yet, notwithstanding this, Satan works upon human minds to do as Judas did. The deadly, groveling passions that take possession of the heart in these last days, when self once becomes lifted up, bring all kinds of evil. Those who sympathized with Korah, Dathan, and Abiram in their apostasy, brought blight and death upon themselves. So it will be in these last days. The cause of Christ will be betrayed. Those who have had the light of truth, and have enjoyed its blessings, but who have turned away from it, will fight down the Spirit of God. Inspired with a spirit from beneath, they will tear down that which they once built up, and show to all reasonable, God-fearing souls that they can not be trusted. They may lay claim to truth and righteousness, but their spirit and works will testify that they are betrayers of their Lord. The attributes of Satan they call the movings of the Holy Spirit. {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 10}

"Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God. Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow." {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 11}

There are but two classes in our world, and they are thus described in the word of God: "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 12}

The warning of Christ comes sounding down the line to our time: "Then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." "And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 13}

Said Christ: "It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 14}

Men will have great opportunities and privileges, and great light; and they will either go forward unto the perfection of Christ's character, or they will follow their own peculiar traits of character. Under the sway of Christ, they will be mild and teachable; under the inspiration of Satan, they will reveal a harsh spirit, and become betrayers of their brethren. They will walk frowardly, in the way of their heart. If those who have light will open the chambers of the mind, they will see as the Lord sees; they will take counsel and reproof; they will open the door of the heart of Jesus, and will welcome him in as an honored guest. Then the soul will be a temple where Christ can dwell. {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 15}

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Well I guess little by little, by looking at the revealed stories of the disciples, evidence that explains what conversion & sanctification actually is - will be uncovered.

Conversion is revealed to be:

1. Receiving Christ as your personal Saviour - it is said of Judas that “He had not received Christ as his personal Saviour.”
2. Yielding your will to Jesus Christ your Savior and pick up your own cross and follow Him. Deny the stuff you ought not to do, but crave to do; depending on Jesus in His own time to change your insides.. It is said of Judas that“He would not yield his way and will to Christ. He did not practise that which was contrary to his own inclinations; therefore his strong avaricious spirit was not corrected.”

3. Getting a heart & attitude change from Jesus. It is said of Judas that”He had not lost something he once possessed. He had never experienced the soul cleansing, the change of character, that constitutes conversion.”

Well that’s some basic things about conversion. The post is getting rather long so I will stop for now.

Zyph, I think I understand what you're trying to accomplish in this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong. Are you saying that being converted and being saved are one and the same thing? If so, then I would agree with you.

But does God consider someone saved who is unwilling to part with their pet sins? If your answer is yes, then I don't agree with you. There really is no excuse for sin since the power of God is available to overcome all known sin. If God has revealed a sin then the power to overcome that sin is available. And hanging on to it is matter of choice and preference. That is considered by God rebellion - not salvation.

God cannot afford to save people who do not take advantage of the agencies He makes available to empower us to live without known sin. To excuse sin is to deny the power of God. People who excuse their sinful choices by pointing to their inherited and cultivated weaknesses assume that living without known sin someone depends on their weaknesses. But the ability and power to live without known sin comes from God, and His ability to empower us to live without known sin does not in any way depend on our weaknesses. If anything He promises to turn our weak points into strong points.

I'm not sure why you're defending a life of known sin, since you have admitted in other places that you believe the promises of God concerning victory over known sin are true and legitimate. Are you playing the devil's advocate, or do you really believe that God considers a person born again and converted even though they are refusing and rejecting His power to live without known sin?

And what about all those quotes I shared about how to deal with church members who are guilty of "open" sin? How do you personally apply those passages? When would you administer them?

Gary, I agree with your thoughts on God tailoring His efforts to draw people to the point of conversion. He uses the same principles but treats each person special.

You know very well that I am not defending sin. To state what you did directly implies that I defend cherishing sin. That is a lie, and you point out even one post of mine where I have done so. Not everything in life is "either" "or". If your conversion is so clear, and perfection is the test of conversion, why haven't you stopped sinning? Or are you not converted? You have said elsewhere that we are to work hard at ridding our lives of sin, then we can come to Christ. That is not and never has been true. If someone hasn't in an instant stopped all known sin, you make him a child of the devil. That's not what my bible tells me. And I wouldn't apply any passages taken out of their original context. If you must treat the SOP as the bible, then you must compare all statements which have a bearing, contextually, and not miss one in order to get the clear picture. That's the Protestant method of study.

With all due respect, this is a BIBLE study, which is open to non-Adventists, isn't it?

Hi Zyph,

quote:

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I'm sorry, but I don't think God gives the ability to heal people and cast out demons to the unconverted, yet Peter was one who did this prior to his "turning again".

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I think that there are some specific words from Jesus Himself that address this issue.

quote:

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Matt 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

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Here Jesus says that there are some who will have cast out demons in His name, along with performing other miracles in His name, who He has never known (had a saving relationship with). We also have the experience of Judas to draw from. He was one of the 12 sent out that performed miracles and yet he was not converted either. He betrayed his Savior to death.

Two different situations.
Firstly, Judas WAS walking with Christ. He didn't leave Jesus' side until a long way down the track. This is from the chapter in "Desire of Ages" about Judas: "He recognized the teaching
of Christ as superior to all that he had ever heard. He loved the Great Teacher, and desired to be with Him. He felt a desire to be changed in
character and life, and he hoped to experience this through connecting himself with Jesus." So please don't tell me there wasn't the beginnings stirring within Judas. Love for Jesus is serious stuff.

Secondly, the text doesn't say "Depart from me, I never had a saving relationship with you." It says "I never KNEW you". Meaning that the people performing - or claiming to perform - these miracles had not met God. How, therefore, could it be God's power producing these miracles? It is a power from elsewhere which is responsible.

We are saved by JESUS' sacrifice on the cross. Perfection is a promise, not a condition of entry to heaven. And before I'm killed in the rush for quotes which say something else when taken out of context, let me say that no-one has addressed the issue of growth in the Christian life. While we grow, the implication is that we are not saved. And that's a lie which insults the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. And if perfection is the destination, has anyone crossed the line yet?

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: zyph ]

It is amazing what you sometimes find when searching. Probably fodder for new topics. But the information that a person is not saved until the seal of God is placed on them, is very specific. There must be a time when the dead in Christ are sealed, prior to the Second Coming, during the judgement of the dead. But it also provides information about the nature of salvation.
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Natural Traits Must Be Transformed.--"How few bear in mind that the tempter was once a covering cherub, a being whom God created for His own name's glory. Satan fell from his high position through self-exaltation; he misused the high capabilities with which God had so richly endowed him. He fell for the same reason that thousands are falling today, because of an ambition to be first, an unwillingness to be under restraint. The Lord would teach man the lesson that, though united in church capacity, he is not saved until the seal of God is placed upon him. . . . {7BC 969.3}

The Lord has a work for us all to do. And if the truth is not rooted in the heart, if the natural traits of character are not transformed by the Holy Spirit, we can never be colaborers with Jesus Christ. Self will constantly appear, and the character of Christ will not be manifested in our lives (Letter 80, 1898). {7BC 969.4}

Without Spot or Wrinkle.--"Missionary agencies are greatly needed in every branch of God's work. Our institutions need converted, devoted men, who will make the Lord their dependence. God will reveal through such workers the power of His grace. His servants are to be distinguished from the world by the seal of the living God; their words and their works are to reveal that they are laborers together with God. {7BC 969.5}

God can use the human agent just to the extent that he will be worked by the Holy Spirit. To men who accept positions of responsibility as presidents, ministers, physicians, or workers in any line, I am bidden to say: God will test every man who enters His service. He does not ask, Do they possess learning and eloquence? Have they ability to command and control and manage? He asks, Will they represent My character? Will they walk in humility, that I may teach them My way? The soul temple must not be defiled by any loose or unclean practice. Those whom I will acknowledge in the courts of heaven must be without spot and wrinkle. {7BC 969.6}

The Lord will use humble men to do a great and good work. Through them He will represent to the world the ineffaceable characteristics of the divine nature (Letter 270, 1907). {7BC 969.7}

(Chs. 14:1-3; 22:4; John 1:12.) An Honor to Bear God's Sign.-- "Those who come out from the world, to stand distinct from worldlings in words and works, those who realize that it is an honor to bear God's sign, will receive power to become His sons. The Lord will have men who can be depended on. No one will enter the courts above who does not bear the sign of God. Those who in this sin-cursed earth bear this sign in holy boldness, looking upon it as an honor, will be recognized and honored by Christ in the courts above (Letter 125, 1903). {7BC 969.8}

(Jer. 8:20; 1 John 3:3.) Will the Angel Pass Us By?--"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." In a little while every one who is a child of God will have His seal placed upon him. O that it may be placed upon our foreheads! Who can endure the thought of being passed by when the angel goes forth to seal the servants of God in their foreheads (RH May 28, 1889)? {7BC 969.9}

Passport to the Holy City.--"Only those who receive the seal of the living God will have the passport through the gates of the Holy City. But there are many who take upon themselves responsibilities in connection with the work of God who are not wholehearted believers, and while they remain thus cannot receive the seal of the living God. They trust in their own righteousness, which the Lord accounts as foolishness (Letter 164, 1909). {7BC 970.1}

The Mark of Distinction.--"Those who would have the seal of God in their foreheads must keep the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. This is what distinguishes them from the disloyal, who have accepted a man-made institution in the place of the true Sabbath. The observance of God's rest day is the mark of distinction between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not (MS 27, 1899). {7BC 970.2}

Like Christ in Character.--"The seal of the living God will be placed upon those only who bear a likeness to Christ in character (RH May 21, 1895). {7BC 970.3}

Image of Christ on the Soul.--"As wax takes the impression of the seal, so the soul is to take the impression of the Spirit of God and retain the image of Christ (ST July 18, 1911). {7BC 970.4}

The Seal and the Commandments.--"Many will not receive the seal of God because they do not keep His commandments or bear the fruits of righteousness (Letter 76, 1900). {7BC 970.5}

Bitter Disappointment in the Day of God.--"The great mass of professing Christians will meet with bitter disappointment in the day of God. They have not upon their foreheads the seal of the living God. Lukewarm and halfhearted, they dishonor God far more than the avowed unbeliever. They grope in darkness, when they might be walking in the noonday light of the Word, under the guidance of One who never errs (Letter 121, 1903). {7BC 970.6}

2-4. See EGW on ch. 14:1-4. {7BC 970.7}
4-17 (ch. 14:1-4; 2 Cor. 3:18). Strive to Be Among the 144,000.-- [Rev. 7:9-17 quoted.] "Those whom the Lamb shall lead by the fountains of living waters, and from whose eyes He shall wipe away all tears, will be those now receiving the knowledge and understanding revealed in the Bible, the Word of God. . . . {7BC 970.8}

"We are to copy no human being. There is no human being wise enough to be our criterion. We are to look to the man Christ Jesus, who is complete in the perfection of righteousness and holiness. He is the author and finisher of our faith. He is the pattern man. His experience is the measure of the experience that we are to gain. His character is our model. Let us, then, take our minds off the perplexities and the difficulties of this life, and fix them on Him, that by beholding we may be changed into His likeness. We may behold Christ to good purpose. We may safely look to Him; for He is all-wise. As we look to Him and think of Him, He will be formed within, the hope of glory. {7BC 970.9}

Zyph, okay I deserved that last post. I'm sorry for assuming you are defending a life of known sin. And I think you also know that I am not advocating that a person must first eliminate sin from their life without the help of Jesus before coming to Him for salvation.

But it is true that if we refuse to advance at God's pace for us and choose to hang on to known sin then we are not saved at that point and neither are we converted. We do not experience the miracle of rebirth until after God has brought us to the point of giving up all of our defects of character. Then the Holy Spirit resides within us seated upon the throne of our soul temple empowering us to use our faculties of mind and body to imitate the sinless example of Jesus maturing in the fruit of the Spirit.

This is not to say we cannot choose to step outside this relationship and sin, even after we've under gone the miracle of rebirth. But these post conversion intentional or unintentional slips do not prove that we were never really converted.

Zyph,

Now let's look at that entire quote. It says something far different than what you are making it out to say.

quote:

---

Judas had naturally a strong love for money; but he had not always been corrupt enough to do such a deed as this. He had fostered the evil spirit of avarice until it had become the ruling motive of his life. The love of mammon overbalanced his love for Christ. Through becoming the slave of one vice he gave himself to Satan, to be driven to any lengths in sin.

Judas had joined the disciples when multitudes were following Christ. The Saviour's teaching moved their hearts as they hung entranced upon His words, spoken in the synagogue, by the seaside, upon the mount.

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Judas saw the sick, the lame, the blind, flock to Jesus from the towns and cities. He saw the dying laid at His feet. He witnessed the Saviour's mighty works in healing the sick, casting out devils, and raising the dead. He felt in his own person the evidence of Christ's power. He recognized the teaching of Christ as superior to all that he had ever heard. He loved the Great Teacher, and desired to be with Him. He felt a desire to be changed in character and life, and he hoped to experience this through connecting himself with Jesus. The Saviour did not repulse Judas. He gave him a place among the twelve. He trusted him to do the work of an evangelist. He endowed him with power to heal the sick and to cast out devils. But Judas did not come to the point of surrendering himself fully to Christ. He did not give up his worldly ambition or his love of money. While he accepted the position of a minister of Christ, he did not bring himself under the divine molding. He felt that he could retain his own judgment and opinions, and he cultivated a disposition to criticize and accuse.

---

Ellen White makes it clear here that Judas did not surrender himself to Jesus, but that Jesus gave Judas the power anyway. Judas, while having the power to perform miracles, was in actuality forming the character that caused him to betray Jesus. This is far different than what you said.

We have Jesus own words to confirm this too. He knew Judas was a devil while still giving Judas the power to work miracles.

quote:

---

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

---

We have further evidence of the heart of Judas too. The following quote comes from the chapter "The Feast at Simon's House." Here Ellen White lays bare Judas' character and motivations that had existed for a long time in him. The quote starts at that place in the story where Mary's gift to Jesus had been discovered.

quote:

---

She had sought to avoid observation, and her movements might have passed unnoticed, but the ointment filled the room with its fragrance, and published her act to all present. Judas looked upon this act with great displeasure. Instead of waiting to hear what Christ would say of the matter, he began to whisper his complaints to those near him, throwing reproach upon Christ for suffering such waste. Craftily he made suggestions that would be likely to cause disaffection.

Judas was treasurer for the disciples, and from their little store he had secretly drawn for his own use, thus narrowing down their resources to a meager pittance. He was eager to put into the bag all that he could obtain. The treasure in the bag was often drawn upon to relieve the poor; and when something that Judas did not think essential was bought, he would say, Why is this waste? why was not the cost of this put into the bag that I carry for the poor? Now the act of Mary was in such marked contrast to his selfishness that he was put to shame; and according to his custom, he sought to assign a worthy motive for his objection to her gift. Turning to the disciples, he asked, "Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein." Judas had no heart for the poor. Had Mary's ointment been sold, and the proceeds fallen into his possession, the poor would have received no benefit.

Judas had a high opinion of his own executive ability. As a financier he thought himself greatly superior to his fellow disciples, and he had led them to regard him in the same light. He had gained their confidence, and had a strong influence over them. His professed sympathy for the poor deceived them, and his artful insinuation caused them to look

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distrustfully upon Mary's devotion. The murmur passed round the table, "To what purpose is this waste? For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor."

---

Jesus well knew that Judas hadn't surrendered his heart, but was willing to work with him anyway, to give him every possible chance to be converted. This just shows the lengths that God will go in His attempts to save us. He will even give those who haven't given Him their all the ability to work for Him and trust them with gifts that they will turn into curses and their own destruction. You might say, Jesus gives us all enough rope to hang ourselves. The choice is up to us what to do with it. We can either use that rope to bind us to Him tightly, or we can use it to cause our own destruction.

Zyph wrote:

quote:

---

We are saved by JESUS' sacrifice on the cross. Perfection is a promise, not a condition of entry to heaven. And before I'm killed in the rush for quotes which say something else when taken out of context, let me say that no-one has addressed the issue of growth in the Christian life. While we grow, the implication is that we are not saved. And that's a lie which insults the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. And if perfection is the destination, has anyone crossed the line yet?

---

Amen. The blood of Jesus is our only ticket to heaven. And if an unconverted person were to die before they experienced the product of conversion (rebirth) their eternal destiny would be decided by God according to His loving fairness.

But whether or not we are "saved" "while we grow" is matter that belongs to God. We can safely assume that if an unconverted person (someone who hasn't given up all their defects of character for Jesus) is willfully clinging to their pet sin, unwilling to give it up because they enjoy it too much, we can assume, at least theoretically, that that person is not saved.

To be saved means to be free from known sin. To suggest that we can be saved while intentionally clinging to known sin is confusing. A person who is still in the process of being drawn by God to give up their defects of character, but haven't completed the process, are saved if they are living up to the light God has thus far revealed to them. But no one can be considered saved if they willfully cling to a sin that God has already clearly pointed out to them.

Once God reveals a certain defect of character He supplies the power to live without it. We need not cling to or excuse any known defect of character. If God has pointed it out He obviously feels we are ready to give it up, and He wouldn't have pointed it out if He was unable to empower us to live without it.

But to say that we are saved even though we are still slave to a defect of character God has already pointed out ignores the meaning of the word saved. Mat 1:21 says Jesus came to save us from our sin, but if we are still victim of it then we are not saved from it.

No, we are not saved because we give up sin. That's crazy talk. The truth is we are able to live without sin because we have been saved from it. To say that being saved and living without sin are two separate things misses the whole point. True, we must not reverse the order of the process. We are first saved and then we are able to live without the sins God has revealed. But being saved doesn't happen independent of living without sin.

People who sin after they have completed the process of conversion and have actually already been born again and have already received the sinless mind of the new man - if after all of this they slip into sin, Jesus offers them the gift of repentance, which ultimately restores the relationship their sin severed. Yes, sin separates the soul from God. But repentance restores it.

In light of all the quotes that have been shared throughout this thread I don't see how anyone can disagree with the contents of this post.

Well, Mike, it must be one of those strange things, but I DO disagree with you.

You wrote: "To be saved means to be free from known sin." That's just not borne out by all the bible stories. You can grab a million quotes out of context, but that's not systematic bible study. My bible tells me to be saved is to have accepted the blood of Jesus Christ as an atonement for my sin - past, present, wilful or otherwise. The rest of the package comes as a natural growth in the Christian life. And it's not conditional. It can't come unless I have first been justified. But it's a process that differs for everyone. The common thing you'll find in all the people trusting in the Lord, is their talk of His love, and encouragement for others.

A man has to be borne again in order to overcome. Most of us don't get it right the first time. We require a learning process. Do you abandon children because they aren't little adults? Neither does God abandon those who haven't learned how to depend on Him for overcoming. And they are regarded as perfect because of the cross. For no other reason.

You may wish to give hope and encouragement to others, but you turn this topic into a rod for the backs of those who haven't grown to the point in their relationship and understanding of God, but who nevertheless love Him, and have responded to the Holy Spirit. You tell them they haven't been converted, when they're pretty sure they have been. And their lives give evidence of that.

It isn't possible to grow a plant overnight, and the first shoots of a plant don't look much like the end product. But it's a plant.

Zeph,
I agree. The thief on the cross didn't get the chance to "grow" while here on earth after his conversion. But, if he HAD, it's for sure, that if he had kept on growing in Jesus, a few years or so down the road, one would not have recognized him. And, I began my walk with the Lord years ago, with even some "detours" on the way. And, now I can say: "I am not yet where I want to be, but praise God, I'm not where I used to be!"

Zyph, I really can't believe that we are so different. I know you believe in the power of God that enables us to recognize and resist sin, self and Satan. And that's exactly what I believe. And I do not believe that God abandons us if we fall short. And I believe God immediately offers us the gift of repentance which totally restores us to righteousness.

I have tried desperately and repeatedly to pin point a distinct class of people and have tried very hard not to generalize. I truly believe that it was Jesus' mission to come and save us from our sin (Mat 1:21) and to destroy the works of the Devil (1 John 3). And people who refuse this gift and insist on committing their pet sin - I just cannot believe that they are saved from sin. The evidence suggests otherwise.

Since the power to overcome is available and since they are refusing that power because they prefer to indulge their favorite defects of character instead of cooperating with the love of God to live without that particular sin - then I cannot believe that they are in a saved relationship. That defies the meaning of the word saved, at least as I understand the word.

I don't get it? Are you actually saying a person is "saved" even if they are wilfully cherishing and committing a known sin without any plans to repent and ask God for power to overcome? If a person can be like that, then in what way do they differ from unsaved people?

You're doing it again, Mike.

Where did I say it was right to cherish sin? If a child can't act like an adult, does it have to be because they are cherishing their childishness?

Hi Zyph,

If I might butt in just a little here.

I don't see Mike saying what you seem to think he is saying. There is a difference between sin that God has not revealed to a person, and sin that God has revealed to a person and they desperately want to keep. This is the distinction that Mike is making, as I see it anyway.

Mike is allowing for growth as a Christian, and allowing God to be the only Being who reveals sin to an individual. This is not different than what you are saying. All he is saying, is that there is a difference between the sin that we willing give up to Jesus, and the sin that we hang on to. You agree that cherished sin will come between us and God, or so I gather from what I have read from your posts.

God doesn't come down and BOOM smack us upside the head with all of our sins at once. He doesn't even reveal them to each person in the same order or way. I don't see Mike as saying that he does. What I do see Mike saying is this: Our surrender to God will be visible in our attitudes towards sin. If we continue to revel in our sins that attitude will be apparent. And, it those people in the church cause a lot of harm. Just as much damage as those people who go around telling the newborn Christian who has never had any experience in the things of God what evil people they are. Both sides of the road are ditches. Both sides do just as much harm. And actually, both sides are in the same boat. Neither has surrendered their life to God. If critical ones had surrendered they wouldn't be nearly so critical and demanding. The devil has just prepared different ways of keeping us away from Jesus is all.

I really appreciate the struggles that people are putting forth to get clarity. If I may I would like to share a few ideas on the subject. I think that to get to precise on the issue of perfection is a difficult and dangerous ground to be upon, sort of like defining precisely the differences between justification and sanctification.

I would like to try a few examples of conversion and then tackle the Peter and Judas problem. In the flood story all the people had eventually been exposed to the gospel through Noah. Everybody had been told of the impossible event to come. Everybody had the opportunity to decide whether to listen to Noah and have faith in his message or not. They had 120 years to develop and mature their thinking. All of this got summarized down to one event - would they walk up the plank and into the ark or would their thinking stop them. 8 turned and walked the plank and were saved.

The children of Israel went through the plagues with the Egyptians. Both parties saw the same events with some differences in experiences. All could choose to accept God as God. The second to the final event was the Passover experience. Those who believed went through the actions and put the blood on the door post. Those who did not experienced the plague. The next phase of the experience was to leave Egypt and follow Moses. All the Israelites did and a goodly portion of Egyptians went with them. When they got to the Red Sea everybody had another test and that was to walk through the Red Sea. Israel made it through by faith Egypt was drowned by faith. After 10 more trials of faith the Israelites refused to go into Canaan and had to die in the wilderness. Were the ones who died in the wilderness saved or lost?

In the sanctuary service when one went into the sanctuary were they covered in the righteousness of Jesus? When Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire were they protected by the righteousness of Jesus or did they have to die for overt rebellion?

When Achan was at the experience of Baal Peor in Numbers 25 was he in the perfect condition described in Numbers 23:21? When he had the opportunity to develop farther did he die for the same sin that Judas died of, when at Jericho?

When Rahab was practicing her livliehood was she accepted by Jesus? Did He send specific people to rescue her? Did she have the same experience that the Israelites had at the Passover? Was she a Jew by faith and heir according to the promises.

Now let us try Peter. In my opinion Peter was converted when He accepted Jesus as Messiah. He obviously had many more dieings to self to go through. He was converted again when he became aware that he could not protect himself after he denied Jesus. In my opinion he was at the same spot as Judas except that he had not hardened himself to Jesus. He was converted again when Jesus asked him if he loved Him. Now in the next level of conversion was he ready to grant salvation to the gentiles? Not until Jesus had to reprove and correct again. Even then did he go astray with the relapse that Paul had to confront, yes. We have many concepts of how conversion is an ever developing process.

Judas also had an experience with Jesus. He started like we all do. He went into the sanctuary and accepted the righteousness of Jesus. He lived with and for Jesus and Jesus revealed fruit through him. He had major defects of character just as all the disciples had. Jesus loved Judas and Judas loved Jesus. The difference was that as Jesus revealed Judas' defects Judas hardened his heart to reproof. When Jesus washed his feet he could have repented of his deeds right then and Jesus would have saved him but he refused. He so shut off his heart that Jesus could no longer reach him and any offer from Jesus was seen as weakness and was shunned. When that time came Judas had to be seperated from the disciples.

All of us are in the same boat as the disciples. We each have found Jesus to be even on this board. We have each had an experience with Jesus. We have each tried to maintain our experience by either works or our own or by accepting the opportnity to cooperate with Jesus in recreating our characters. Jesus is the master of our development. When each of us has had every opportunity to finish the work and when Jesus is completly satisfied that there is no more work to be done or that there is nothing more that He can do then, and only then, will we be sealed never to be changed.

Zyph, actually I agree with you that a child acts like a child because he is a child. Morris Venden wrote that an apple tree produces apples because it is an apple tree NOT in order to become an apple tree. But in 1 Peter 2:1,2 the Bible says "babes" in Christ are "newborn" believers who have laid aside "all malice, all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings." And if we take what James wrote about controlling our tongues then we must conclude that a "newborn babe" is a "perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body." James 3:2. From this I gather that conversion is nothing short of miracluous.

Gary, thank you for summarizing my thoughts. It's not easy expressing myself online, and I need all the help I can get. Thank you.

Greg, thank you for providing all those examples. It's difficult to assess who is saved and who is lost. But Jesus said, By their fruits ye shall known them. So, if it's in our hearts to imitate Jesus' example, and if we trust the Spirit of God for the power to resist temptation and we expect to be victorious in Christ, then our fruits will bear witness for God.

But during the process of conversion the Holy Spirit is motivating us to lay aside our defects of character - both our cherished and detested imperfections - but not until we have completed this process do we experience the miracle of rebirth or what we call conversion. We are born again morally complete, but we're not born again morally mature. We begin as babes in Christ, and like the baby Jesus we too must grow in grace and mature in the fruit of the Spirit.

We may slip in and out of known sin after we've been born again, which, if we do, then we must receive the gift of repentance and be restored to the relationship our sin severed. And we are saved. But if we REFUSE to repent then that sin will keep us out of heaven no matter how religious we are otherwise. We are not saved if we cling to known sin and/or refuse to repent of sin.

Mike:
I took the liberty to copy a section of your last post. This is the area that seems to be causing the problem in the discussion. I will try to highlight the phrasing.

"But during the process of conversion the Holy Spirit is motivating us to lay aside our defects of character - both our cherished and detested imperfections - but not until we have completed this process do we experience the miracle of rebirth or what we call conversion. We are born again morally complete, but we're not born again morally mature. We begin as babes in Christ, and like the baby Jesus we too must grow in grace and mature in the fruit of the Spirit.

We may slip in and out of known sin after we've been born again, which, if we do, then we must receive the gift of repentance and be restored to the relationship our sin severed. And we are saved. But if we REFUSE to repent then that sin will keep us out of heaven no matter how religious we are otherwise. We are not saved if we cling to known sin and/or refuse to repent of sin."

It is this concept that the process must be complete before the conversion occurs. In my opinion you have the concept turned around. We are converted/born again, then the healing process from our disease of sin can occur. We are morally complete in Jesus when we are born, yet we have inherited and cultivated moral diseases that must be irradicated. Jesus starts the process, Jesus maintains the process, and Jesus completes the process. But we have a vote in what sins we hold on to and what ones we allow Jesus to remove, just like in elective surgery. We have chosen to be in the hospital and we chose to allow Jesus to remove all the sins or all but one. If we electively choose to hold on to that last one we will be lost. But if we are in process of getting cured then Jesus will complete that which He has started. AMEN!

Greg, I'm so happy you have isolated the part where what I've been emphasizing differs from main stream thinking on the subject of conversion. It is precisely this difference that I'm hoping to establish as the difference between truth and error. I tried to start a thread to address this point but it died out. I'm doing a lousy job of showing from the Bible and the SOP the point of view I hold as true, and it feels as though most people have basically given up on me.

I have quoted dozens of EGW passages which depict conversion as when-then experience that follows the moment we give up everything for Jesus. But they don't seem to make any difference and most people seem to disregard them. Even the 1 Peter 2:1,2 quote and comments in my last post have gone untouched. As well as 2 Cor 5:17 and Eph 4:24 and 1 Peter 4:1,2 etc, etc.

I'm not sure why most people overlook the obvious meaning of passages like these and turn them around to mean something different than what they plainly say, but it is clearly the most popular thing to do???? Is there a good reason why we shouldn't take those kinds of promises exactly the way they read?

What a great discussion guys.

I have a comment or two on what Greg copied out of Mike's post and then commented on.

Greg sees what Mike is saying much the same way Zyph sees it. I don't see Mike saying this is about individual sins. I see him talking about the process of the Holy Spirit making us willing to give up whatever it is God is revealing to us that which He finds objectionable and to our own hurt. And not only being willing to surrender that, but what ever else He will continue to show us about ourselves that is harmful to us. (I see sin at it's most basic as those things about us that will hurt us in ways we don't understand. God knows what those hurts and problems will be, and attempts to remove them from us, we just have to be willing to let them go. Sin is very self-destructive at it's core. It is a cancer that will kill us.)

Now when we have become willing to give up anything when God asks it of us, then we have experienced rebirth. Others may not recognize it. We ourselves may not recognize it. But God does, and so will we eventually. Now, at this point of attitude change God hasn't shown us everthing that we will need to change in our lives, but we have already surrendered them in heart to Jesus. The process of working through all those things still must happen, but conversion has happened.

If we haven't become willing to give up all, then we haven't been converted. This is where I differ with Greg. I don't believe that the Bible or the SOP support the idea that Judas ever experienced conversion. He was attracted by the love of Jesus. He might even have liked the idea of changing for a short time, but when he understood it was about giving up on self he said, No, I don't want that. This is why we see the long term problems that he had. He remained a thief in the very presence of the Man he said was God.

Picture this: Judas remained daily in the presence of Jesus for years. He daily had the same type of experience we have when the Holy Spirit draws near to us and our hearts burn within us. And yet while still in that presence he could steal from his fellow disciples and Jesus Himself. And while in that presence he reached the point of being so filled with anger toward Jesus that he was wanted to kill Him for money. Think about this and see if you could imagine doing that while the Holy Spirit is speaking to your hearts.

Do you really think that is being converted?

Jesus was not mistaken when He called Judas a devil. Only a devil could hate in the presence of Supreme love.

I'm copying this from another thread, as it's really the same topic. Please read the following carefully. I apologise for lack of references with some quotes. I can only promise that you'll find them on the E.G. White Estate site. I don't think this is appropriate in a bible study topic, but this seems to be the definitive authority to many.

"In the life of the disciple John true sanctification is exemplified. During the years of his close association with Christ, he was often warned and cautioned by the Saviour; and these reproofs he accepted. As the character of the Divine One was manifested to him, John saw his own deficiencies, and was humbled by the revelation. Day by day, in contrast with his own violent spirit, he beheld the tenderness and forbearance of Jesus, and heard Hislessons of humility and patience. Day by day his heart was drawn out to Christ, until he lost sight of self in love for his Master. The power and tenderness, the majesty and meekness, the strength and patience, that he saw in the daily life of the Son of God, filled his soul with admiration. He yielded his resentful, ambitious temper to the molding power of Christ, and divine love wrought in him a transformation of character.{AA 557.1}

In striking contrast to the sanctification worked out in the life of John is the experience of his fellow disciple, Judas. Like his associate, Judas professed to be a disciple of Christ, but he possessed only a form of godliness. He was not insensible to the beauty of the character of Christ; and often, as he listened to the Saviour's
words, conviction came to him, but he would not humble his heart or confess his sins. By resisting the divine influence he dishonored the Master whom he professed to love. John warred earnestly against his faults; but Judas violated his conscience and yielded to temptation, fastening upon himself more securely his habits of evil. The practice of the truths that Christ
taught was at variance with his desires and purposes, and he could not bring himself to yield his ideas in order to receive wisdom from heaven. Instead of walking in the light, he chose to walk in darkness. Evil desires, covetousness, revengeful passions, dark and sullen thoughts, were cherished until Satan gained full control of him.{AA 557.2}

John and Judas are representatives of those who profess to be Christ's followers. Both these disciples had the same opportunities to study and
follow the divine Pattern. Both were closely associated with Jesus and were privileged to listen to His teaching. Each possessed serious defects of character; and each had access to the divine grace that transforms character. ***But while one in humility was learning of Jesus, the other
revealed that he was not a doer of the word, but a hearer only. One, daily dying to self and overcoming sin, was sanctified through the truth; the other, resisting the transforming power of grace and indulging selfish desires, was brought into bondage to Satan***." {AA 558.1}"The Acts of the Apostles" by Ellen White. {AA chapter 55 p 557- 567}

This tells me that John was being sanctified progressively, beginning when he began to walk with Jesus. Who gets sanctified? Surely only those who have already become justified. So John was justified, sanctified, walking with Jesus, but continuing to be beset with sins. He was arguing about who would be greatest in the kingdom, and he deserted Jesus when the soldiers came to arrest Him. He didn't stay in that condition, but he was IN that condition, and still regarded as a child of God.

"The Scriptures are the great agency in the transformation of character. . . . If studied and obeyed, the Word of God works in the heart, subduing every unholy attribute. {COL 100.1}, {ST, October 10, 1906 par. 11}, {FLB 116.7}.

There is no such thing as instantaneous sanctification. True sanctification is a daily work, continuing as long as life shall last. {FLB 116.8}, {ML 248.4}, {SL 10.1}, {RH, January 18, 1881 par. 9}

When in conversion the sinner finds peace with God through the blood of the atonement, the Christian life has but just begun." The Faith I Live By - Chapter Title: God's Remedy For Sin (It's possible that some references are incorrect, as I cut and pasted some things separately)

So, conversion is when we find peace with God through the atonement, and is the beginning. Then, through the agency of the word of God, which the converted person makes their study, our characters are transformed, but not instantaneously.

"There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ, and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes; but we are not to be discouraged. " {FLB 118.4}, {RC 123.4}, {SC 64.1}

"Courage, fortitude, faith, and implicit trust in God's power to save are needed. These heavenly graces do not come in a moment; they are acquired by the experience of years. But every sincere and earnest seeker will become a partaker of the divine nature. His soul will be filled with intense longing to know the fullness of that love which passes knowledge. As he advances in the divine life, he will be better able to grasp the elevated, ennobling truths of the Word of God, until, by beholding, he becomes changed, and is enabled to reflect the likeness of his Redeemer."
{FLB 120.4 read paragraphs 1-6 really great.}, {SW, September 25, 1906 par. 12}

(Sorry - I don't have the references.)

I think it's clear that there is a process of growth during which we become complete overcomers. But we are regarded as perfect at any stage of this growth, because of the cross.

Just two more:

Justification means the saving of a soul from perdition, that he may obtain sanctification, and through sanctification, the life of heaven. Justification means that the conscience, purged from dead works, is placed where it can receive the blessings of sanctification (MS 113, 1902)& {7BC 908.15}.

.--Sanctification means habitual communion with God (RH March 15, 1906)& {7BC 908.16}.

************
Zyph I am editing the references into your post & Linda has told me the time, time to suit up for Church so I will add more references later. Glad to help with references - any time I can let me know & I will do my best.

*************
Hope these edited in references help.
Ed

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]

Zyph I found those references for you, and in the process discovered a series of EGW articles in The Signs of the Times I had not seen before. I am operating from the concept that SOP is our spiritual geiger counter & template & spiritual language conversion web-engine. With the geiger counter of SOP we discover things we were not aware of. With the template of SOP we get a specific description of those things, inorder that we may comprehend their existance & beging to understand them enough to ask questions. The SOP engine of spiritual power to explain some of what the discovery means and how to begin to obtain it and put it to use.

Now with this preperation we go with prayer to the Scriptures asking God to direct & amplify our ability to study, comprenend , and teach us how to, through the Bible obtain and draw or pull upon the life of Jesus contained in these things to live through Him, just like He has lived through God the Father.

Zyph,

Good post. I don't see anything there which would place us at variance in our understanding of justification or sanctification.

I think you will find in your post the evidence that Judas was not converted, and by extrapolation, that Peter wasn't truly converted until Jesus crucifixcion. It was at the crucifixcion where Peter came to truly understand himself and his need of a Savior. That was where he came to rock bottom and had no place to look but up. When he got there he didn't reject what Jesus offered, but accepted it fully. His attitude changed from trusting himself, to distrust of himself and his own motivations to one of allowing Jesus to tell him the condition of his heart. This is the point of conversion.

The following comes from Signs of the Times November 11, 1897. The article is called Peter's fall. Here I think you will find the corroboration of what I have been saying.

quote:

---

Peter needed a deeper, broader knowledge of Jesus Christ. He had listened to his words and enjoyed his lessons. He had acknowledged him to be the Son of God, and he believed him to be thus; but he had only touched the margin of faith in Christ. There were depths in the knowledge of his character which demanded his homage, his faith, his tribute of perfect trust and unshaken confidence. "Thou shalt see greater things than these," is the promise that invites increased expectation. {ST, November 11, 1897 par. 1}

Jesus stood ready to reveal himself to Peter. In his great love he told him of his denial. He sought to reveal the defects of his character, and his need of the help which Christ alone could give. He told Peter that he was mistaken in his ideas of himself, and that in not receiving and believing the words of Christ, he was doing the very evil of which Christ had declared he would be guilty. How earnest, then, should have been Peter's prayers, that the Lord would teach him how to resist the wiles of the devil, how to be watchful against his temptations! But Peter's boastful assertions, while refusing to see himself as Christ viewed him, were causing his light to grow dim. {ST, November 11, 1897 par. 2}

Jesus did not try farther to make Peter believe that he knew the course he would pursue; but he knew that "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked." "Simon, Simon," he said, "behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he might sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not; and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." {ST, November 11, 1897 par. 3}

The object of conversion is twofold, personal and relative. It is to bless us, and to make us a blessing. This is an individual work; but those who profess to believe the Word of God have so long accustomed their minds to be content with little things that they have disqualified themselves to discern and appreciate the great things prepared for them. In the place of receiving into good and honest hearts the Word that God sends in messages to help them, to elevate, ennoble, and sanctify them, they cavil and gossip over it, because it cuts directly across their inclinations. In the place of seeing their need of conversion, they regard the means which the Lord has provided to change their characters as idle tales. To them their habits are stronger than truth. Individual conversion means a change of character. Man must place himself in personal relation to Christ, that, in the place of following his own hereditary and cultivated tendencies, he may have the mind of Christ, placing himself under the moulding influence of the Holy Spirit. {ST, November 11, 1897 par. 4}

O, that Peter had better learned the lesson given in the fifteenth chapter of John, of the necessity of abiding in Christ! "As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself," said Christ, "except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." Peter was listening to his words as, pointing to a vine on which was a withered branch, he said: "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away; and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth [pruneth] it, that it may bring forth more fruit. . . . As the branch can not bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. . . . If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." {ST, November 11, 1897 par. 5}

Peter denied the Man of Sorrows in his acquaintance with grief, in the hour of his humiliation; but he was filled with shame and sorrow for his act. With blinding tears he made his way to the solitudes of the Garden of Gethsemane, and there prostrated himself where he had seen his Saviour's prostrate form. He remembered with remorse that he was asleep when Jesus prayed during those fearful hours. His proud heart broke, and penitential tears moistened the sod so recently stained with the bloody sweat-drops of God's dear Son. He left the garden a converted man. {ST, November 11, 1897 par. 6}

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In my thinking Peter was converted before and was converted after the crucifixtion. I believe that he went through the pruning that the Father had promised. I believe that he had more conversions to go through after as well. Since we do not believe that once converted always converted, until the sealing. But again to try too hard to describe all the aspects of conversion is an interesting but not necesarily a productive task. Our job is to get as close to Jesus as possible. When He brings up our defects and tells us what we will do our job is to cry out for help for He will keep His sheep, we can not keep ourselves for Him. So when we study, and the Spirit brings up things our job is to take our dilemma to Him for Him to make the changes in us. As long as we have a Jesus centered focus then all things will work out well. If we have an us centered focus then all things will work out not well.

Ellen White has described conversion as a "radical transformation." The many quotes I have posted throughout this and other threads make it clear that she viewed conversion (rebirth) as a when-then change of life. No one is considerd converted if in reality their life if full of unknown moral defects of character. Not until God is able to draw us to the point where we are able to deal with a knowledge of our unknown imperfections, not until then are we in a position where God can empower us to acknowledge and overcome our defects. And God is the one who decides how and when we're able to successfully deal with a knowledge of what's right and wrong about our life.

But not until we are led by the loving and compassionate hand of God to a place where we candidly see our imperfections completely exposed - not until at that point are we in a position where we can surrender and submit ourselves totally to God and experience the miracle of conversion. We are converted when we choose to live for Jesus without clinging to our now exposed defects and God implants within us the sinless seed of the new man.

Please read Gal 5:16-24 (I'm away from home so I can't post it here right now) and identify which one of the imperfections Paul lists that we can be guilty of without realizing it and still be considred born again (converted). Personally I cannot believe that anyone can be ignorantly guilty of the defects Paul listed and be converted. Can you?

Yes, I can.

Hi Greg,

What do you see as the difference between the drawing of the Holy Spirit, which includes the revelation of our sins because it convicts us of our need of a Savior, and conversion?

Do you feel that any positive response generated by the calling of the Holy Spirit is conversion?

Here's the quote from Galatians 5:

5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Again, as I said before, I just can't imagine anyone (who has experienced the awesome miracle of conversion) unwittingly practicing any one of these sins without realizing it's wrong. Especially when compared with other passages of Scripture and the SOP.

The quote above very simply says that so long as we are walking in the Spirit we will not fall victim to any of the imperfections listed, which is a comprehensive list since he ends it by adding - "and such like." Rather than being discouraging bad news, this is encouraging good news. And it goes right along with what John wrote in 1 John:

3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Greg, would you mind elaborating on your last post?

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

I think that Peter was converted before Calvary. I do not think that he understood the depths of self that he was working with. I believe that he fulfilled the conditions of the parable of the sower. The plant was sown in his heart, it was growing, and Jesus was protecting it from the ravages of the weeds that were trying to choke his spiritual life out. In addition to his lack of awareness of self he was still highly prejudiced against Gentiles and would have happily excluded them from salvation. When he was "converted" after Calvary he still had sin in his life, the prejudice, but he was still converted. I believe that his conversion came when he accepted Jesus as Messiah and chose to follow him. All the rest was maturation and development. The change of character came when he made his decision to follow Jesus. He still had growth to go through.

Case study number 2. When king Saul was given a new heart was it conversion? When he chose to rebel against God through Samuel was it unconversion?

Case study number 3. When David chose to participate in adultery what state was David in? Before he participated in adultery was he converted? After he had committed adultery and murder was he converted or unconverted? When was he a man after God's own heart?

Peter's Conversion - If being converted means being unwittingly guilty of moral imperfections then how should we understand 1 Peter 2:1,2? Here Peter plainly says that new born babes in Christ have laid aside all moral defects of character.

King Saul's Conversion - It is evident from the Bible record that he was converted but chose to turn his back on God. His experience coincides with Heb 6:4-6.

King David's Conversion - Clearly he slipped in and out of the mind of the new man. But he always repented and was restored to the relationship his sin severed. His experience would have followed Heb 10:26,27 if he had not repented.

According to 1 John 3:9 converted people who walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man do and cannot commit a known sin. This is not to say that they are incapable of sinning, but rather that they do not choose to sin while in the Spirit and mind of the new man.

But if a converted person does fall into sin God promises us in 1 John 2:1,2 that Jesus stands ready to represent us, and in 1 John 1:9 He promises to cleanse us of all unrighteousness and to restore the relationship our sin severed. However, if we refuse to repent then we are in an unsaved state. Isn't that how you see it?

Here are the quotes cited above:

1 Peter
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

Hebrews
6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

1 John
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Mike:
I believe that you try too hard to make everything line up. You appear to have the idea that you can explain all the details of salvation. The concept is easier lived than explained in detail. It is somewhat like trying to explain the incarnation. We can try but it can not be done.

Conversion is the new birth. As a result of this miracle there is a new creation in us while at the same time being surrounded by a sinful being, the "old man". Each day that new creation is to partake of the Word of God. Each day it grows bigger and stronger, yet all the while being a holy being. This new creation is exposed to all the ravages of life. It makes mistakes and sometimes falls. Yet it keeps getting up and continuing the journey. Sister White describes it as "one unbroken string of victories, not seen as such here but seen as such in heaven." This conveys the idea that our human vision still sees things darkly, and cannot be totally understood until we receive our improved vision.

Some day when God is finished we will be perfectly mature. Then we will be sealed and will never fall again into sin. Then we will be "perfect".

Gregg,

The quote you gave is a good one. (The one about uninterrupted victories.)

I went to the Desire of Ages and pulled it out of there to get its context.

quote:

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Christ rejoiced that He could do more for His followers than they could ask or think. He spoke with assurance, knowing that an almighty decree had been given before the world was made. He knew that truth, armed with the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit, would conquer in the contest with evil; and that the bloodstained banner would wave triumphantly over His followers. He knew that the life of His trusting disciples would be like His, a series of uninterrupted victories, not seen to be such here, but recognized as such in the great hereafter.

"These things I have spoken unto you," He said, "that in Me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." Christ did not fail, neither was He discouraged, and His followers are to manifest a faith of the same enduring nature. They are to live as He lived, and work as He worked, because they depend on Him as the great Master Worker. Courage, energy, and perseverance they must possess. Though apparent impossibilities obstruct their way, by His grace they are to go forward. Instead of deploring difficulties, they are called upon to surmount them. They are to despair of nothing, and to hope for everything. With the golden chain of His matchless love Christ has bound them to the throne of God. It is His purpose that the highest influence in the universe, emanating from the source of all power, shall be theirs. They are to have power

Page 680
to resist evil, power that neither earth, nor death, nor hell can master, power that will enable them to overcome as Christ overcame.

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I would have to say that this quote in context has a different meaning than what you seem to imply with your post.

Jesus life here on earth was seen as one of defeat by His contemoraries, but, only because they were looking at temporal circumstances, not spiritual struggles. I fail to see how we can look at Jesus' life in the context of this quote and your interpretation of it and see how Jesus life had any failures related to spiritual matters. Ellen White clearly tied this to Jesus joy at being able to giving us the power to overcome any obstacle, even evil.

YOu kind of took this promise and made it theoretical and of none effect by saying we couldn't really take it for just what it says. You seem to say that our spiritual failures become victories by some slight of hand.

Don't get me wrong. I really appreciate your posts. I always read them with great interest for I think you have a lot of insight. I just think we have been conditioned to accept sin in our lives far too easily. We completely expect to fail. We are taught anymore that to sin is just expected. It is kind of like, Well, hey you are just going to keep on failing. Get used to it.

I don't see that attitude taught in the Bible. John the beloved, who certainly understood the value of his relationship with Jesus wrote: These things I write unto that ye sin not, but, if any man sin we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Righteous.

I don't see how anyone can take these texts and come away with the idea that sin is just something that is inevitable. I don't think that you even realize what it is that you are saying when you disagree with Mike in his analysis. But, the underlying message is that sin cannot be overcome. We are going to sin. That is the sum effect of what you are saying.

I see Paul, Jesus, John, James, Matthew, Mark, and Luke as well as David, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and others not giving that same message. They do paint that picture of mankind without God, but they do not paint that picture of mankind with God. They paint a picture of a struggle with sin, and an overcoming of sin. Nowhere do I see them teach, in the overall, any kind of acceptance of sin in the life of a beleiver. Sin is always condemned.

I am sorry that I have given the impression that we can not overcome sin. I am also sorry that I have given the impression sin cannot be dealt with in Jesus. I am also sorry that I have given the impression that by sleight of hand we can claim that Jesus' righteousness covers intentional sin. I do not intend to convey that idea.

I do claim that the DA quotation is still appropriate to your discussion. The power that Jesus manifested over physical issues is to be manifested in our lives. The victories that Jesus displayed are to be the ones that we are to have in our lives. The program of salvation that Jesus initiated is to grant us total victory over sin, here in this life.

My difference of opinion is in the procedure. I do not believe that we can have victory over sin by focusing on sin. I do not believe that we can have victory over sin by trying harder to overcome. It is my understanding of the Bible and the SOP that when you come to Jesus, when you maintain the connection to Him, and when you cooperate in His strength then sin falls away because it is the Holy Spirit that is doing the overcoming by our permission.

I hope that this clarifies my thoughts.

Hi Gregg,

Neither do I think that we can overcome sin by focusing on it. But, I do think we can find what the Bible teaches Jesus, through the power of the Holy Spirit, can do in our lives. I don't see this as focusing on negatives. If we really don't understand what the promises of God can mean for us how can we claim them by faith? It isn't possible. We can't claim by faith what we don't believe to be true.

To focus on what God can do in us, is not focusing on the power of sin in our lives. It brings us to the realization of our need for increased dependence and closeness to Jesus, and on His power to heal of sin.

This subject is all Good News to me. It is all Gospel to me. I don't want the power of sin to diminish the reflection of Jesus in my life that others can see, and that is surely what "sinning" does. Every time I fail to represent my Savior rightly (by sinning) someone somewhere recieves the wrong picture of God, the plan of salvation, the power of sin, and just how great heaven will be. This is not what I want them to see.

Neither is it what God would have us show to the world. Ellen White tells us that the power of our witnessing is not in the great acts of faith we perform intermittently, but in the constancy of our living like Jesus. This tells me that whenever I fail my constancy fails, and so does my witness for Him. Out of my love for my fellow man I do not wish this to be so. I want them to be drawn to Jesus, not pushed away.

In all of this message I see a challenge to draw nearer and nearer to Jesus for it exposes my innermost heart. This is a good thing. We are told to examine ourselves to see whether we are in the truth or not.

It is interesting that the Sermon on the Mount is pointed to as the greatest sermon on the love ever given, and yet that whole sermon is about behavior and attitude. It is all about do's and don'ts. Today if Jesus came and preached a sermon like that He would be accused of legalism by a large percentage of the church, of trying to condemn and control people by "shaking the bony finger" at their face and beating their backs with a rod.

The Bible seems to be about evenly split between faith and works. It talks about them both. I see the reason for this as being that real faith will be accompanied by works just as Mike as said. So, if we say we have faith we MUST have works.

Here is why. If I say that tomorrow I will go and deposit $1,000 in your bank account, and I do not do that on the day following the day the promise was made my words were false. The only way the statement could be true is for me to have deposited the money in your account the following day. So, if I say I have faith, for my faith to be real faith, and not presumption, then my life must show the works that real faith brings into the life. If my life is lacking the works of Jesus, then my faith is not real and I need to examine myself as to why. Remember, the law is our schoolmaster, as Paul called it, bringing us to our realization of our need of Jesus.

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Gary K ]

Yes when Jesus is the focus we will have faith and works. Rev 14:12 When we become sin focused we will have works and faith in our efforts to overcome. I like the Jesus end of the equation.

Greg,

What would you say about a group of Christians taking oaths obligating themselves to never break the law of God? Would you say that these people were focusing on sin, and as such could never really live victoriously for God?

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Gary K ]

I can't resist responding, sorry.

They would be focussing on works and their own will to achieve what was in the contract. God doesn't say, "Come unto Me and I will issue a contract". And in spite of what Mike said a while ago, a strong man CAN'T overcome sin/s. All our righteousness is filthy rags.

Tell me, if men are committed in their hearts to the Lord, what purpose does a contract serve? Particularly for those who are already perfect.

Hi Zyph,

No problem. I'm always glad to hear what you have to say. Just because we don't always agree doesn't mean that there are hard feelings.

The group of Christians that I was refering to were Christians that were martyred for Jesus. These were people who lived when it really cost something to be a Christian. To be a Christian right then was not something done without careful soul searching and consideration for everyone who became a Christian knew of many people who had lost their lives just because of what they believed, and lived.

Here is the story from Fox's Book of Martyrs, Chapter 2, part 1.

quote:

---

In the third persecution Pliny the Second, a man learned and famous, seeing the lamentable slaughter of Christians, and moved therewith to pity, wrote to Trajan, certifying him that there were many thousands of them daily put to death, of which none did any thing contrary to the Roman laws worthy of persecution. "The whole account they gave of their crime or error (whichever it is to be called) amounted only to this--viz. that they were accustomed on a stated day to meet before daylight, and to repeat together a set form of prayer to Christ as a God, and to bind themselves by an obligation--not indeed to commit wickedness; but, on the contrary--never to commit theft, robbery, or adultery, never to falsify their word, never to defraud any man: after which it was their custom to separate, and reassemble to partake in common of a harmless meal."

---

People don't willingly die for a set of rules and regulations. They will, however, die for something, or someone, they love with all their heart.

In the light of the context of this story does your opinion of this group of people change? Do you still see them as a group of legalists who didn't know what it means to love God?

Zyph,

Just a small addition to my last post. What I see in the story, and what I see in the behavior of these martyrs is this: These people so loved God, so loved everything that He stands for, that they were willing to obligate themselves to each other to live by the principles of what God stands for no matter if it cost them their lives. And that is just what it did.

I see motivation of the deepest sort. The sort of motivation that will cause someone to say, I don't care if I die for it, but I will stand on what I say I believe and will die for it. I will not only say that in the privacy of my bedroom on my knees before God, I will say it publicly too, even though doing so will cost me my life. Nothing could be further from legalism. These people were truly converted. Nothing would be allowed to come between them and their Lord.

I would see them making oaths. An oath is good in that it focuses you on something. But an oath will not save you. It is another thing to do but doing in and of itself is not salvation. The first paragraph in EW 270 is one of my favorite quotations about the doing, and the working, and the striving. Also there is a prayer in COL 159 that I like also. But as in all good analogies there are two sides of the picture. We are to rest, and we are to work. But unless Jesus is the focus our very efforts will become our God unless protected by Jesus.

Hi Gregg,

I don't see any significant difference between the two (oath and obligation).

quote:

---

2 entries found for oath.
To select an entry, click on it. (Click 'Go' if nothing happens.)
oathHippocratic oath

Main Entry: oath
Pronunciation: 'Oth
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural oaths /'O[th]z, 'Oths/
Etymology: Middle English ooth, from Old English Ath; akin to Old High German eid oath, Middle Irish oeth
Date: before 12th century
1 a (1) : a solemn usually formal calling upon God or a god to witness to the truth of what one says or to witness that one sincerely intends to do what one says (2) : a solemn attestation of the truth or inviolability of one's words b : something (as a promise) corroborated by an oath
2 : an irreverent or careless use of a sacred name; broadly : SWEARWORD

---

quote:

---

entries found for obligation.
To select an entry, click on it. (Click 'Go' if nothing happens.)
obligationholy day of obligation

Main Entry: ob·li·ga·tion
Pronunciation: "ä-bl&-'gA-sh&n
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : the action of obligating oneself to a course of action (as by a promise or vow)
2 a : something (as a formal contract, a promise, or the demands of conscience or custom) that obligates one to a course of action b : a debt security (as a mortgage or corporate bond) c : a commitment (as by a government) to pay a particular sum of money; also : an amount owed under such an obligation
3 a : a condition or feeling of being obligated b : a debt of gratitude
4 : something one is bound to do : DUTY, RESPONSIBILITY

---

Gary:
Have your oaths stopped you from sinning? If you have stopped sinning what did it for you?

Gregg,

I take it from your reply then that you believe that the Christians of that short story out of Fox's Book of Martyrs were legalists, for this seems to be the general direction of your statements.

I also find it interesting that you intimate that I said that I have taken oaths related to sinning. Where did I say that? I gave specific examples of Christians who did and asked whether or not you considered them legalists. You never answered, but I can see why. To accuse a martyr of hypocrisy and self-righteousness doesn't look good at all. It looks much better to attack me personally.

Your statements to me on this thread have consistently implied I believe I can overcome sin on my own, without Jesus. I would ask you to show where I have made such statements. If you cannot produce such statements I ask you to stop with the insinuations. It doesn't look good on you.

Greg, you're so right. It definitely appears as though I'm trying too hard to minutely define the plan of salvation. I'm sorry. I've been trying to stick to what the Bible and the SOP say about the subject, but I think I might get carried away with long posts.

But do you think our basic differences fall under the category of splitting hairs? That is, I believe self must completely die before we can experience rebirth, and I seem to hear you saying that we must be born again before we can die completely to self. Did I get it right? If so, can we use 1 Peter 2:1,2 to examine our differences? So far I haven't been able to get anybody to comment on this passage. Would you be willing?

Gary, again thank you for clarifying what I've been trying to say. It's very helpful when two people saying the same thing express it from different angles. Thank you.

Zyph, we're just not clicking, are we? I'm so sorry. It really does cause me much sorrow and pain to be so out of sorts with you. I value our friendship, and I so desperately want to be on the same playing field as you. But we're worlds apart when it comes to our understanding of the miracle of rebirth and conversion.

The reason I said that strong willed people can overcome many of their defects of character without cooperating with the influence of God is because I myself lived my life that way for a long time. By sheer force of will power I stopped lying, cheating, stealing, using drugs and booze, and may other sinful behaviours. Much in the same way the apostle Paul did. Rom 7.

But when I discovered the truth about conversion, the truth as it is in Jesus, I experienced Jesus in a new and exciting way. It was then I realized all my self generated victories were nothing more than deceptions and, as you noted, filthy rags. But I doubt that if you had known me before my real conversion you would have suspected my life was a lie and a deception and nothing but rags.

My point is this: only God knew the difference. To the onlooking world my life was an excellent example of what it meant to be a Christian. Of course it would have been wrong for anyone to judge my motives, since my fruit had the appearance of being genuine, though in reality I can look back now I testify that I was nothing more than what Morris Venden calls a "good liver."

But I can tell the difference now. Thank you Jesus. The joy and peace of mind I have now is like honey compared to the vinegar I once thought was sugar. Praise God. Jesus has set me free, and I love it.

Mike, as you will see in the post on another thread, I had "kudos" to give you, and,I thank you for this last post. I will address 1Peter 2:1,2 very briefly, for I don't even know if this is right, but seem so to me. Don't you believe this is speaking of what Jesus wants us to do at the conversion experience, also, every day following it? At conversion, and afterward, I was a "newborn babe," and could digest ONLY the milk of the word. Now, had I stayed as a newborn babe all my life, I sure would have never grown in Christ! But, now, He expects more of me, as to what I can digest, and if I am growing in Him!

Zyph may not be as far away from the two of you meeting your minds as you feel. I hope not, she is a lovely Christian woman.

I am just praying daily for more unity on this board, but NOT because we give up our beliefs, but, because we have shared them. I see no reason why we cannot even disagree, and keep on discussing, AND praying (prayer before posting really can change an intended post; I know!!) and working toward an understanding of each other's thoughts. After all, we are all planning to live in the same neighborhood one day soon, right??!!!

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Dora ]

If one lives a good life without Jesus the emotional and spiritual atmosphere of the carnal mind still broadcasts its message. When Jesus comes into the heart then the life radiates Christ. That is why it is important to have Jesus, first, formost, and always.

Mike, I went back a page and reread several posts. It seems to me that Zyph, Greg and I were all saying about the same things, in a slightly different way. And, in your last post, did you mean that your understanding has changed? Or did you mean that we just weren't "getting" what you have been saying? I think we all agree that if we do not have a "heart" experience when we turn, or are converted, it is worth nothing. Is that what you are saying?

Dora, thank you for the kind kudos. I love kuddies. And yes, I too believe Zyph is a fine Christian lady. I think she knows how I feel about her. I really do value what people think and say on this forum. And as you say, I hope we can continue to study even if we never do agree on every point we discuss. I have no doubt each one of us are sincerely striving to stay in tune and in touch with Jesus. Who can resist Someone so lovely, eh!

What I meant about our basic differences is that we are fundamentally worlds apart when it comes to the timing relationship between 1) when we cease from sin, and 2) when we experience the miracle of rebirth. Compare 1 Peter 4:1,2 and Eph 4:20-24. Again, I'm sorry I'm not in a place where I can post these quotes here and now.

I haven't changed my understanding on this point. And I'm sorry for whatever I wrote that gave you that impression. I'm still trying to implement Gary's counsel in that regard. It's just that I want so much to be in harmony with my brothers and sisters that I look for ways to be agreeable, and sometimes it comes across as sounding like I agree with points I really don't agree with. So again, I'm sorry.

I still very much believe that before we can be converted or born again we must first cooperate with God in crucifying our defects of character as He reveals them. Once we complete this process, which depending on the person may take many months to many years (the difference has to with how willing the person is to progress at God's pace), but if and when we complete this process, then receive the implanted sinless seed of the new man, which comes complete with all the attributes and fruits of God.

Of course we are not born again fully mature and seasoned saints. But neither was Jesus. As a babe He too had to grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. But here is where we differ. I believe we begin at conversion where Jesus began at birth. That is, just as Jesus began without sinful defects of character, so too born again believers do not begin with moral imperfections. On this point we disagree.

Your comments on 1 Peter 2:1,2 do not reflect a literal reading of the words Peter employed to convey his thought. And there are times in Bible study when we cannot read a passage literally, for to do so would yield absurd conclusions. However, I personally do not believe we need to spiritualize or deviate from a literal rendering of this passage, since it in no way disagrees with the entire testimony of the Bible regarding the miracle of rebirth.

I very much appreciate you taking the time to address this passage, and I hope you don't mind me asking you to answer the following question - Why can't we read 1 Peter 2:1,2 just the way it is written? A literal reading of this passage clearly says that a newborn babe in Christ is someone who has laid aside all their moral defects of character and are free from sin. Is there any reason why we can't take this passage just as it reads?

Thank you Mike, for all the energy and time you have invested in this topic, and also in trying to explain it again to me. I have the Bible open before me now to 1Pet.2:1-3. You see, I think I AM reading it as is written, and at the same time applying it to ALL I know of that experience, namely my own Testimony. Yes, when I was converted, (turned,made the decision for a life with Christ,) at that moment I was accepted, and yes, forgiven, and He had taken my sins. But, Mike, I couldn't change my way of thinking or being, before coming. If I could why would I
even NEED Jesus? He says, "come unto me, all ye that are weary and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Matt.11:28. It seems that it is such a simple thing, just come. And come tomorrow, and keep coming. And where is that quote, "If you will seek the Lord and be converted every day....?" and, I haven't had time yet,to look up very many of the quotes in the index on conversion, but, there are MANY! I want to look up 2T505, for it says something like ..."conversion is not completed until Christian character is perfected."

No! No! Mike, I would never argue to try to prove MY point, I just thank you for causing me to look deeper into this topic for myself. As you have said, that is what true study is all about. Can you imagine the early pioneers? They didn't have an index, or Testimonies!! They just studied and prayed. Seems to me, it can be no less of importance to me to know what is TRUTH! Not because my pastor,or anyone said it; only, Thus saith the Lord! And, no, I really didn't think you had changed your mind, but, I have learned it is best to just question, if I am unsure about anything. But, I pray that even at the chance of someone misunderstanding your meaning, that you never change as to your courtesy and tact, and the Christlike way you present your thoughts. I will finish looking up many of these quotes and texts, and finish the chapter on Nicodemous, and get back. OK? May God Bless.

Mike, I have cut this from the other topic, which is the same. These are your words:

"We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception."

And from this topic:

" I believe we begin at conversion where Jesus began at birth. That is, just as Jesus began without sinful defects of character, so too born again believers do not begin with moral imperfections."

You agree that you were not perfect when you gritted your teeth and overcame your defects. (You didn't. You just stopped acting out. Your mind was still sinful. Your words again: "But when I discovered the truth about conversion, the truth as it is in Jesus, I experienced Jesus in a new and exciting way. It was then I realized all my self generated victories were nothing more than deceptions and, as you noted, filthy rags. But I doubt that if you had known me before my real conversion you would have suspected my life was a lie and a deception and nothing but rags.")

You agree that it was after conversion that you realised a different experience. You had habituated yourself to act like a Christian, now you had become one, you didn't have as many habits to overcome. The momentum of overt bad behaviour was already diverted through practice, now your mind matched your profession.

Weak people know they cannot grit their teeth to act like a Christian. They are not self-deceived by the fact that they can perform correctly, even though they aren't pure in heart. They give themselves to the Lord, with all the momentum of sin - which Jesus never had, I'd like to remind you - and the Holy Spirit begins the lessons of depending on Christ in order to overcome. Their victories are not outward show, but real inner change.

Of whom do they love to speak? Where are their thoughts? One topic swallows up all others. Christ, our Righteousness.

How do they know when they are perfect? Most men who have come into the presence of God have fallen on their faces, consumed with the knowledge that they were sinful, and feeling like they would die in the presence of holiness. No matter how righteous they have been, this has occurred. Even after conversion. This is moral defects they felt - not that their flesh was sinful.

To call the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a man by any other name is dangerous, and you don't understand how discouraging your theories are. You have not offered hope, but a system of getting good enough to be converted. You say you're talking about a promise, but in the next breath, you portray total moral perfection as the only evidence of conversion.

Your experience is yours, not mine. You can not say that because you came to the Lord in a certain way, that is how it should be for others. There are many bible texts which can be compared, bandied around, and used in certain ways to state opposing ideas. But the Protestant method of bible study is to gather ALL the texts on a subject, look at the context, and present all facets as part of the truth, with texts qualifying each other. Moral perfection is available, as some of your texts indicate, but the experience and growth process of some people differs, with God tending them like trees, gently training them into new shapes, and digging the soil. A constant symbol used regarding the Christian life, is the growth of plants. The wheat and tares - who aren't recognisable as EITHER, initially; the parable of the sower; the description of the growth of a plant, ending in maturity. Plants begin as seeds, but once they are planted, they begin to grow, and continue to change progressively. You can't ignore these examples. You can't interpret them as applying to perfectly intact people learning to be more intact.

I may have expressed myself badly here, and waffled a bit. I make no claims for myself, and I have no axe to grind with you. But I am telling you my honest feelings when I say that I have almost thrown the whole thing in when I was beginning to be influenced by your posts. This is not personal criticism, and you may interpret this as you wish (meaning that you may believe that this is because I am not willing to give up sinning). But when Jesus is lifted up, and the promise that He will complete the good work He has begun in me is emphasised, I have hope, and I am encouraged to come closer, and to seek His companionship. If I am misled, so be it. But I am sharing with you my experience, in the hope that you will be careful not to discourage others whose faith is as weak as mine.

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: zyph ]

Dear Zyph,
In my reasoning, that was an excellent post! Well thought out, clearly and well defined, and tactfully and courteously stated. I have to say I agree with your way of thinking about conversion. Outward acts do not always insure that the heart has been changed. But, WHEN the heart has been changed,(turned to Jesus,) what outward acts the Holy Spirit activites us to do, then, we can see the true FRUITS of the spirit.
And, as we come to Him, and KEEP coming and having that daily interaction, that daily friendship, we are changed by beholding; by being in His Presence, although it is more often over a period of time,(as fast as we allow God to lead us, or as fast as He knows we can go, as little children.) And, as the mother hen cares for her chicks, and teaches them to eat small seeds at first, rather than try to gobble large grains of corn!!

Okay. It is clear we do not see eye to eye regarding the timing and the extent of conversion. I think it's safe to say that our differences are as follows:

1. I believe conversion is a process and a product. During the process of conversion the Holy Spirit influences us to lay aside our defects of character. He exposes them no faster than He is able to influence us to lay them
aside. If we cooperate with the influence of the Spirit of God and lay aside all of our imperfections we will eventually experience the miracle of conversion. This happens the moment the Spirit exposes our last defect and we lay it aside.

2. At this moment God implants within us the sinless seed of the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous attributes of God and all the fruit of the Spirit. From this point onward the Spirit empowers us from within to imitate the example of Jesus, which means we spend the rest of our lives maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. If we fall back into sin after we've been born again, the Spirit of God impresses us to receive the gift of repentance, which empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, and gives God the legal right to pardon us and to restore us to the mind of the new man.

3. But I hear the rest of you saying that we receive the product of conversion first and then we begin the gradual process of laying aside our defects of character. And then after years of sinning and repenting we evenutually cease from sin.

I'm not sure why this point of view is more encouraging than the one I have been advocating? The idea that it will take the rest of my life to cease from sin sounds depressing to me. I hate sin. And if I have to spend the rest of my life sinning, then I don't want to be a Christian.

But if you're not saying it will take God the rest of my life to empower me to cease from sin, then what are you saying that is different from what I'm saying? Does it have to do with the blessed assurance of salvation? If so, then please rest assured that I believe we are saved the moment we begin the process of conversion. Our
salvation does not depend on whether or not we complete the process or receive the product. If we should die before the Lord can lead us to completely crucify self, our salvation will be based on the life we would have lived had we not died prematurely.

Please show me from the Bible where we are born again first and then we spend the rest of our life laying aside our sinful defects of character until we finally cease from sin. If this idea of conversion is what it means - By beholding Christ we become Christlike - then it should be easy to show from the Bible and the SOP.

Dear Mike,
I thought the post that Greg laid out for us in the thread, "Sinners & Saints" couldn't be plainer, if anyone wants to look at it. So, I feel there is really nothing that I, with my more limited knowledge of the Bible and SOP could add to it. What I think doesn't really matter,though, unless it goes exactly with what the Bible and the SOP say. I do believe, though, I am in harmony with these sources, as far as my knowledge goes.

The one thing I could suggest, concerning your first sentence after your #1 in the above post, is to read pp 172& 173 again in DA. I couldn't even BEGIN to explain conversion better than what is explained here. May God bless and direct your thoughts in whatever you study. My prayers are with you, and for you.

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: Dora ]

Mike's words: "Please show me from the Bible where we are born again first and then we spend the rest of our life laying aside our sinful defects of character until we finally cease from sin."

I wouldn't try, because those are your words, and your thoughts, not mine.

Can you possibly see an alternative which fits with all the scriptures and quotes?

I'll give you a clue: What is sin?

As I searched this SOP phrase "sanctification is" and got 175 hits. The quotes I am posting is just the start.

I found this interesting SOP quote about conversion & sanctification. It seems to say to me the conversion is coming to & surrendering to Jesus, and that moral perfection is the discipleship journey with Him made possible AFTER coming to Him.

"The Scriptures plainly show that the work of sanctification is progressive. When in conversion the sinner finds peace with God through the blood of the atonement, the Christian life has but just begun. Now he is to "go on unto perfection;" to grow up "unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Says the apostle Paul: "This one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." [PHIL. 3:13, 14.] And Peter sets before us the steps by which Bible sanctification is to be attained: "Giving all (A.)diligence, (B.)add to your (C.)faith (D.)virtue; and to virtue (E.)knowledge; and to knowledge (F.)temperance; and to temperance (G.)patience; and to patience (H.)godliness; and to godliness (I.)brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness (J.)charity. . . . If ye do these things, ye shall never fall." [2 PET. 1:5-10.] {GC88 470.1}

(A.)diligence - It seems to me that Paul is saying be persistant because one days efforts are not going to finish the process.

(B.)add - You build by adding, not just removing things that need removing.

(C.)faith - This is your responce and link to Jesus. He creates it & gives it to you.

(D.)virtue - This is one of the building blocks to add to your faith.

(E.)knowledge - As you have been adding virtue, then you starting knowledge - the knoweledge of god & salvation.

(F.)temperance - The knowledge of salvation includes the needs of the body.

(G.)patience - This does not sound like an instantanous process. Biblical patience needs to be learned and put to use.

(H.)godliness - The way God is and why He is like this and what He does. How to learn that & get it from Him.

(I.)brotherly kindness - Learning how to be filled with brotherly kindness inside & how to practice it outside.

(J.)charity - The Agape that makes God tick, how to get it inside & put it to use.

This is a facet of information from one quote & Bible passage. I am lead from this one quote to view conversion as the fulfilment of John 1:12&13.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is a beginning. To build a belief needs to obey Deuteronomy 29:29 and compile what God has revealed. As I said this is a start.

SOP Data - #1. {GC88 470.1}

[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]

Here are three pages from the SOP book OHC (Our High Calling) Let us all see what we can find from what they say & where they refer us to in the Bible.

"Chap. 207 - "Holier, Yea Holier Still"

For this is the will of God, even your sanctification. 1 Thess. 4:3. {OHC 213.1}

Our sanctification is God's object in all His dealing with us. He has chosen us from eternity that we might be holy. Christ gave Himself for our redemption, that through faith in His power to save from sin, we might be made complete in Him. . . . {OHC 213.2}

As Christians we have pledged ourselves to fulfil the responsibilities resting on us, and to show to the world that we have a close connection with God. Thus, through the good words and works of His disciples, Christ is to be represented and honored. {OHC 213.3}

God expects of us perfect obedience to His law. This law is the echo of His voice, saying to us, Holier, yea holier still. Desire after the fullness of the grace of Christ, yea, long--hunger and thirst--after righteousness. The promise is, "Ye shall be filled." Let your heart be filled with a longing for this righteousness. . . . {OHC 213.4}

God has plainly stated that He expects us to be perfect, and because He expects this, He has made provision for us to be partakers of the divine nature. Only thus can we gain success in striving for eternal life. The power is given by Christ. "As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." John 1:12. {OHC 213.5}

God's people are to reflect to the world the bright rays of His glory. But in order for them to do this, they must stand where these rays can fall on them. They must cooperate with God. The heart must be cleansed of all that leads to wrong. The Word of God must be read and studied with an earnest desire to gain from it spiritual power. The bread of heaven must be eaten and assimilated, becoming part of the life. Thus we gain eternal life. Thus is answered the prayer of Christ, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." John 17:17. {OHC 213.6}

"This is the will of God, even your sanctification." Is it your will that your desires and inclinations shall be brought into harmony with the divine mind? {OHC 213.7}

Chap. 208 - The Secret of Holiness

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Eph. 4:24. {OHC 214.1}

No man receives holiness as a birthright, or as a gift from any other human being. Holiness is the gift of God through Christ. Those who receive the Saviour become sons of God. They are His spiritual children, born again, renewed in righteousness and true holiness. Their minds are changed. With clearer vision they behold eternal realities. They are adopted into God's family, and they become conformed to His likeness, changed by His Spirit from glory to glory. From cherishing supreme love for self, they come to cherish supreme love for God and for Christ. . . . {OHC 214.2}

Accepting Christ as a personal Saviour, and following His example of self-denial--this is the secret of holiness. {OHC 214.3}

Holiness is not rapture; it is the result of surrendering all to God; it is living by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God; it is doing the will of our heavenly Father; it is trusting in God in trial, believing in His promise in the darkness as well as in the light. Religion is to walk by faith, as well as by sight, trusting in God with all confidence, and resting in His love. {OHC 214.4}

Sanctification is a state of holiness, without and within, being holy and without reserve the Lord's, not in form, but in truth. Every impurity of thought, every lustful passion, separates the soul from God; for Christ can never put His robe of righteousness upon a sinner, to hide his deformity. . . . There must be a progressive work of triumph over evil, of sympathy with good, a reflection of the character of Jesus. We must walk in the light, which will increase and grow brighter unto the perfect day. This is real, substantial growth, which will finally attain to the full stature of men and women in Jesus Christ. . . . {OHC 214.5}

Conformity to the likeness of Christ's character, overcoming all sin and temptation, walking in the fear of God, setting the Lord continually before us, will bring peace and joy on earth, and ensure us pure happiness in heaven. {OHC 214.6}

Chap. 209 - A Daily Experience in Conversion

For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 2 Cor. 4:16. {OHC 215.1}

Genuine conversion is needed, not once in years, but daily. This conversion brings man into a new relation with God. Old things, his natural passions and hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong, pass away, and he is renewed and sanctified. But this work must be continual; for as long as Satan exists, he will make an effort to carry on his work. He who strives to serve God will encounter a strong undercurrent of wrong. His heart needs to be barricaded by constant watchfulness and prayer, or else the embankment will give way; and like a millstream, the undercurrent of wrong will sweep away the safeguard. No renewed heart can be kept in a condition of sweetness without the daily application of the salt of the Word. Divine grace must be received daily, or no man will stay converted. . . . {OHC 215.2}

Test and trial will come to every soul that loves God. The Lord does not work a miracle to prevent this ordeal of trial, to shield His people from the temptations of the enemy. . . . Characters are to be developed that will decide the fitness of the human family for the heavenly home--characters that will stand through the pressure of unfavorable circumstances in private and public life, and that will, under the severest temptations, through the grace of God grow brave and true, be firm as a rock to principle, and come forth from the fiery ordeal, of more value than the golden wedge of Ophir. God will endorse, with His own superscription, as His elect, those who possess such characters. . . . {OHC 215.3}

The Lord accepts no halfhearted service. He demands the whole man. Religion is to be brought into every phase of life, carried into labor of every kind. The whole being is to be under God's control. We must not think that we can take supervision of our own thoughts. They must be brought into captivity to Christ. Self cannot manage self; it is not sufficient for the work. . . . God alone can make and keep us loyal. {OHC 215.4}

Ed, thank you for that post. I agree that this is what the Bible and SOP is showing us. OUR part is to come to Jesus, and to be willing, or if we must, we can even "be willing to be made willing."
That is as little as it takes to START His work in us. But, as you said, we must come and keep coming each day. It is not a one time thing.

I just found this:

"Let us be growing Christians. We are not to stand still. We are to be in advance today of what we were yesterday; every day learning to be more trustful, more fully relying upon Jesus. Thus we are to grow up. You do not at one bound reach perfection; sanctification is the work of a lifetime. . . . {3SM 193.1}

I remember in 1843 a man and his wife . . . who expected the Lord to come in 1844, and they were waiting and watching. And every day they would pray to God; before they would bid each other goodnight, they would say, "It may be the Lord will come when we are asleep, and we want to be ready." The husband would ask his wife if he had said a word during the day that she had thought was not in accordance with the truth and the faith which they professed, and then she would ask him the same question. Then they would bow before the Lord and ask Him if they had sinned in thought or word or action, and if so that He would forgive that transgression. Now we want just such simplicity as this. {3SM 193.2}

You want to be like little children, hanging upon the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, and then you will be fortified. How? The angels of God will be around you as a wall of fire. The righteousness of Christ, which you claim, goes before you, and the glory of God is your rearward. God sanctify the tongues; God sanctify the thoughts; God sanctify our minds, that we may dwell upon heavenly themes, and then that we may impart that knowledge and light to others. There is great advancement for us, and do not stop here. May God help you to make the most of your responsibilities.-- Manuscript 9, 1891. {3SM 193.3}

Justification Explained--1891.--Justification by faith is to many a mystery. A sinner is justified by God when he repents of his sins. He sees Jesus upon the cross of Calvary. Why all this suffering? The law of Jehovah has been broken. The law of God's government in heaven and earth has been transgressed, and the penalty of sin is pronounced to be death. But "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Oh, what love, what matchless love! Christ, the Son of God, dying for guilty man! {3SM 193.4}

The sinner views the spirituality of the law of God and its eternal obligations. He sees the love of God in providing a substitute and surety for guilty man, and that substitute is One equal with God. This display of grace in the gift of salvation to the world fills the sinner with amazement. This love of God to man breaks every barrier down. He comes to the cross, which has been placed midway between divinity and humanity, and repents of his sins of transgression, because Christ has been drawing him to Himself. He does not expect the law to cleanse him from sin, for there is no pardoning quality in the law to save the transgressors of the law. He looks to the atoning Sacrifice as his only hope, through repentance toward God--because the laws of His government have been broken--and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ as the One who can save and cleanse the sinner from every transgression. {3SM 194.1}

The mediatorial work of Christ commenced with the commencement of human guilt and suffering and misery, as soon as man became a transgressor. The law was not abolished to save man and bring him into union with God. But Christ assumed the office of his surety and deliverer in becoming sin for man, that man might become the righteousness of God in and through Him who was one with the Father. Sinners can be justified by God only when He pardons their sins, remits the punishment they deserve, and treats them as though they were really just and had not sinned, receiving them into divine favor and treating them as if they were righteous. They are justified alone through the imputed righteousness of Christ. The Father accepts the Son, and through the atoning sacrifice of His Son accepts the sinner. {3SM 194.2}

Amen! But I get the feeling that some of us are taking these quotes to mean that sanctification is the process of becoming less and less sinful over the course of a lifetime. But these precious quotes just do not teach this idea.

Jesus is a perfect example of what these quotes are talking about. Jesus demonstrated the truth about sanctification. His life from childhood to adulthood is exactly what growing in grace and sanctification is all about. And His experience did not involve gradually out growing sinful defects of character. Instead, His life and development make it clear that sanctification is the lifelong process of maturing in the fruit of the Spirit.

Jesus "learned obedience" and "became perfect" as He grew and matured from childhood to adulhood. Yes, He started off perfect. But sanctification is progressive. As He grew and gained experience in the things of God He "learned obedience" and "became perfect." From this we understand that perfection is a process and is progressive - like a "light that shineth more and more unto the perfect day."

Sanctified, born again believers, converted saints, progress from "glory to glory," from "faith to fatih," from "grace to grace," - not from sin to sin until we cease from sin. It is a misconception to believe that growth in
grace and sanctification - after we have completely crucified self and have received the sinless seed of the new man - involves God gradually revealing supposed unknown moral defects of character. That's just not the example we have in Jesus.

It is a huge mistake to read all the Bible and SOP quotes that have been posted throughout this 8 page thread (and others like this one) and conclude that conversion and sanctification describes growth in grace as a lifetime process of gradually becoming less and less sinful until we cease from sin. Zyph has confidently affirmed that my summary of what you folks are saying is wrong. If you are not teaching it the way I have reflected here - then would someone please show me how and why my summary of what you all are saying is wrong.

Perhaps you feel that has already been done, and have concluded that I'm just too deluded to see what you're really saying. But all the quotes you have been posting say exactly what I've been saying. And you folks seem to believe that they are contradicting what I believe about conversion and sanctification. And yet not one single quote you have posted says that sanctification involves a lifetime of overcoming our defects of character until finally after years of falling and failing God is "able to keep us from falling."

Please, just for the sake of being kind and loving and thorough, show how even one quote from the Bible or the SOP plainly teaches we must first be born again or converted before God can empower us to lay aside our moral imperfections. So far, all the quotes that have been posted throughout this thread teach that when we obtain the gift of a new heart we must then, from that point forward, continue to cooperate with Him, on a daily moment by moment basis, in order to maintain our new heart, and to mature as Jesus matured in the fruit of the Spirit.

So please, rather than merely tossing the question back at me, please prove how - not just post a quote - but prove how that quote or quotes teach what I'm saying is wrong. And then prove how it teaches what you believe to be right. It's not enough to post a quote and assume that it means the same thing to everyone else that it means to you. Please break it down word by word and show how it means what you believe it means. And then I will do the same, more than I have already done here.

And may the truth be known.

Mike:
I would have to agree with Zyph. There has been plenty of material posted on here about conversion. Ed has just posted many quotations. You do have an interesting twist and that you create a straw argument in that we are presenting the concept that you grow less and less sinful over time.

The concept is that as long as you have these sinful bodies we are sinful natures to deal with. Jesus had a sinful body but not a sinful nature. We have a sinful body and a sinful nature. We have sinfulness by inheritance and we have chosen and cultivated sin. Jesus had the cravings of his inheritance but had never chosen sin nor ever cultivated sin. As far as the law was concerned He was sinless.

The new birth creates a new creature inside a sinful body. This creation occurs when we choose to allow Jesus into the sanctuary of our hearts. The moment we choose Jesus the seed is planted in our hearts and minds. It fulfills the principles of the sower of the seed. The spiritual nature grows inside of the sinful body. There is the same conflict in the person as in the warfare of Jacob and Esau in the womb. Sinful choices weaken the spritual nature and paralyze the soul. If enough of those decisions are made then the parable of the sower of the seed come into effect - the thorns can choke out the seed and kill it.

We have the experience of King Saul who was given a new heart, and the special support of the prophet of God in Samuel. He was blessed abundantly but he chose to allow the things of the heart to choke out the experience of God and he was eventually destroyed.

David had the same experience. He was blessed, Samuel anointed him, he had many experiences with God. Satan sought to wound him through Bathsheeba, and used him to destroy a man of God. If David had not chosen to go to the hospital and have his wounds attended to by Jesus he would have died in his experience. But David chose to accept the help that Jesus offered where Saul rebelled. The same seed, the same prophet, the same Holy Spirit, but different results.

This same process in repeated in Peter and Judas. Peter accepted the reproofs and surrendered to Jesus and Judas refused to submit himself to the cleansing that Jesus offered. Peter was rescued from himself and Judas refused and took care of things himself.

I think that you have a form of once saved always saved in your thinking and I believe that you read this thought into your Bible studies. You don't seem to like the idea of a person being able to accept Jesus and then turn away. You then attempt to solve that dilemma by making all sin get out of the person first and then salvation/the new birth occurs. That is not the parable of the seed. The seed is sown broadcast. The seed springs up in a variety of soils. The issue is is the soil prepared and open. Will the individual allow the gardener to dig deep, remove the stones, and pull the weeks. If the decision is to allow Jesus to continue the work that He has started then the soul will survive until he/she is sealed and the harvest can be accomplished.

The key issue to salvation is to allow Jesus to start and to complete the work that He has started. Our job is to keep saying yes to Him and cooperate to the best of our abilities and let Jesus do for us what we can not do for ourselves. We are not able to expel sin. We can alter behaviors but we can not cleanse the soul temple from sin. Jesus only can do that.

Again, if you can cleanse yourself from sin then you do not need a Saviour. Only Jesus can save you, and only Jesus can save me. There is not one thread of human divising in His robe of righteousness. It is a 100% free gift from Jesus. That robe is put around sinners and that robe begins to penetrate and alter the sinner. That robe has been filled with the balm of gilead. The choice of accepting the robe is the new birth, the healing of the wounds is the bringing of all things into harmony with God.

Mike, I recognize that this post could be stated in a better manner but this is the best that I can do with my present understanding. Please accept my apologies for not being clearer and more accurate. I have to leave the rest to Jesus for this is the best that I can do.

[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Greg Goodchild ]

Mike, although I was going to follow a different line, you appear to be not interested at this time.

You wrote the following: " Please, just for the sake of being kind and loving and thorough, show how even one quote from the Bible or the SOP plainly teaches we must first be born again or converted before God can empower us to lay aside our moral imperfections."

Well, the following is definitive: Jeremiah 13:23 " Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil." NASB

I don't think there is any need to discuss what is written plainly. Of course we CAN do good, but only if God is in control.

I am so sorry i lost the post i had prepared for this subject, but when i pushed "reply" it disappeared and i could not put it together again......

I see many people "doing good" in order to earn salvation but we know this is head conversion, not heart conversion. The new birth experience is "Walking in the Spirit" not in the flesh. I will just "cut to the bottom line"...

2Co 5:14 "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:" also

1Co 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, [and] is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity."

All that we do without Christ is filthy rags....All that we do in the Spirit is for His Glory. As we are enabled to walk up the steps of Sanctification, We are covered with His robe and perfect in Christ at every step along the way. Sanctification is not just a completed product but a daily growth for those that are being sanctified by Christ. New birth is a turn around, a transformation, God taking your carnal nature and recreating it into the image of God. God speaks and it is done......but this is daily, moment by moment till you come into the "full stature of God."

We live in very wonderful times. The Coming of Christ is about to happen. This last generation has the privilege of more truth than ever before and the experience of living up to all light.....is the experience of those that vindicate the character of God. These perfect examples of Christ's character could be alive right now....for they will be the special people redeemed when He comes. Complete, mature, tested and pure Gold tried in the fire......Sanctified and fit for God's kingdom.

Does anybody really believe that I'm saying we must lay aside our sinful defects of character before we can come to Jesus or that we can do this without Jesus? God forbid. Please quote where that's what I said. Nowhere have I written anything like that.

I believe the quotes posted in this thread clearly teach that the Holy Spirit first influences us to.lay aside or to crucify our defects of character, and then we experience the miralce of conversion, rebirth. That's when God
implants the sinless seed of the new man. We are born again morally complete, but not morally mature. As newborn babes we, like the baby Jesus, must grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

Please point to the passages that refute this understanding of conversion. But please, please, do not take time and space accusing me of things that I clearly do not believe.

Mike,

I do not think you have posed that question to me.....i know you don't believe that nor have i accused you of believing it....

Praise God He does the wooing and we do the responding......He does the knocking and we do the opening of the door.....He does the cleansing after we come to Him "Just like we are", a sin sick soul in need of healing.

Happy Sabbath

When the Shepherd finds the little stray sheep, He picks it up, and carries it lovingly in His arms back to the fold. It is still dirty, cold, and covered in briars if it has strayed far. But it is saved. And if it rests in the care of the Shepherd, it will be cleaned, fed, and tenderly cared for, until only the Shepherd remembers that it was once lost.

Was it saved - converted - before the briars were gone? Yes.

Charlene, thank you for your kind support. I hope I didn't hurt you or anyone else for asking that question of the forum in general. Praise God for everything Jesus is doing to save us now and for ever. Amen!

Zyph, thank you for those comforting words. I love the sheep/Shepherd analogy. Jesus is so good. And we need Him so desperately - all of the time.

Also, I'm sure you remember the post where I wrote we are "saved" the very moment we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour. We are in a saved state as soon we enter the outer court of the sanctuary, as soon as we begin the process of conversion, even before we actually experience the miracle of rebirth.

Being saved doesn't depend on whether or not we have time to completely crucify all of our defects and imperfections of character. We are saved so long as we are progressing at God's pace for us. We are saved so long as we do not stubbornly cling to some pet darling sin, some cherished defect of character we just refuse to lay aside for Jesus.

We are saved during the process of conversion, but we are not yet converted or born again. Salvation and conversion are not necessarily one and the same thing. We do not experience the miracle of rebirth until after self is completely dead and buried. Conversion or rebirth is something that God does to us instanteously the moment He brings us to the place where we consent to crucify our last defect of character.

But all along the way, during the process of conversion, before we are converted or born again, we are saved, so long as we do not cling to known sin.

Mike,
Let me put it in my own words then tell me what you think about the way if see this "New Birth" "conversion" teaching.

I see the new birth like a couple falling in love. First is the "infatuation", [seed of love planted] then the relationship continues and the infatuation takes and grows root and deepen into genuine true love that is consumated into marriage and a life long deep relationship of selflesness, living to please our chosen mate {Jesus].

New Birth: Mar 4:28
"For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear."

New Birth: A Beginning that blossoms and deepens and matures.

Conversion: Starts with new birth and ends with settling into the truth spiritually and intellectually and can not be moved.

S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 4-- EZE3---PG- 1161
(Rev. 7:2.) Seal Is a Settling Into Truth. Just as soon as the people of God are sealed in their foreheads--it is not any seal or mark that can be seen, but a settling into the truth, both intellectually and spiritually, so they cannot be moved--just as soon as God's people are sealed and prepared for the shaking, it will come. Indeed, it has begun already; the judgments of God are now upon the land, to give us warning,
that we may know what is coming "(MS 173, 1902).

Growing in Christ.....Love the only true motive.

another thought,

New birth may be the completed conversion....."Thief on the Cross" and the like scenarios, brands plucked from the buning, loud cry converts........the deepening of the experience to take place in heaven.....

what do you think?

Mike, you wrote: "But all along the way, during the process of conversion, before we are converted or born again, we are saved, so long as we do not cling to known sin."

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

You know that at the time the Shepherd has found the straying sheep, it is saved, dirt, briars, and all. Don't you think this verse should cause you to reassess your understanding of when we are converted or born again?

Charlene, thank you for that lovely illustration. To me it places conversion and the new life in a beautiful light. In another thread I wrote that Jesus is the best example of the seed-to-blossom illustration. We receive the sinless seed of the new man the moment self is dead and we're born again. We begin at conversion where Jesus began at conception. And the marriage illustration is another awesome way to share this truth. Thank you.

Zyph, thank you for being persistent with me. I'm sorry I failed to adequately address this text. I believe Jesus explained the born again experience to Nicodemus in it's entirety. I don't Jesus took the time then and there to explain the "what if" someone dies before they complete the process of conversion.

There will be in heaven people Jesus saved in His kingdom who never even heard the name of Jesus. They will be in heaven because they exhibited the kind of commitment to conscience that it takes to be in heaven. It would be incorrect, according to the biblical description of the born again state and condition, to conclude that people such as these were converted and born again.

This is why I believe we are saved, not based on whether we are converted or born again, but based on what Jesus has done for us and on whether or not we have accepted Him as our personal Saviour. Should we die before God has had time to reveal all our defects and before we have time to live up to all the light necessary to be translated alive - I believe we are saved still.

If we conclude that rebirth happens the moment we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour, then what should we do with passages like 1 John 3:9? We would have to twist it to mean something it doesn't say. And in what way is Jesus the perfect example of a born again believer if it means we begin with all our defects? What do you think?

just a short comment on the following verse....

1Jo 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Selected Messages Book 1----PG- 382

When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept
those who claim to have faith in Him, and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easygoing,
accommodating, crossless religion. But Jesus says,
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."-- The Signs of the Times, June 16, 1890.

Charlene, thank you for that awesome quote. Ellen White had a wonderful understanding of the truth and a marvelous way of sharing it. So encouraging!

It is Bible and SOP quotes like these that make it clear to me that being born again is a miracle, and a completed process. Since being born again means we have been totally and completely delivered from the burden of our siful defects of character, it is obvious from this fact that we are not born again the moment we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour. Because at that point we are still full of sin. We are saved, yes, but we are not a newborn babe in Christ until after self is dead and buried.

We are saved so long as we are cooperating with God and progressing at His pace, and then we are converted and born again the moment self is dead and God implants within us the sinless seed of the new man. Because according to the biblical description of a born again believer they are dead to sin and free from sin and awake to righteousness - they begin perfect and become perfect just like Jesus. To me that is good news.

I see the conflict of the old man and the new man beginning at the new birth experience. There was no need of conflict before then, for Satan was the master.

We fight against our new nature when give give our hearts to Christ.
We give him our wills and He must change our loves to hates. We dont even have the desire to be conformed to the word of God until our new Birth experience. Now this is the result of my studies, but i pray that i am still willing to learn. May God be with this study and open our minds to His truth. God Bless

Charlene,

If we are born again first and then we start the process of laying aside our moral defects of character how should we understand passages like -

1 John 3:9

Galatians 5:16-24

Ephesians 4:21-24

1 Peter 2:21,22 and 4:1,2

Also, if this is true then at what point is Jesus our example? before or after we cease from sin? 1 Peter 4:1,2.

I must answer a question with a question:
What will make the sinner want to change his life at all, from a sinner to a saint, if it is not the “New Birth.” What will start the new seed to grow? Only the Holy Spirit can make a change, a transformation in the life of a sinner. This is not accomplished all at once. The Holy Spirit convicts and converts, and the changes take place. What will kill the old man if it is not the new man winning battle after battle in the ‘great controversy?’ When the life is ‘hidden in Christ’ the growth is a steady victorious life. Unless the saint gets weary and chooses to give up his walk with God.

1Pe 2:21 :For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:”

Charlene: The seed of Christ, when watered in the heart…looks to Jesus as our example. What else could we pattern our lives after and be in His care? When we experience the New Birth, Our desire it to be like Him and Follow Him. Only in His Strength is this possible. The saints were preordained to follow Jesus, He died for all, but God gave man a choice and some choose to be sinners rather than saints.

1Pe 4:1 “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.”

Charlene:Jesus was born with our human sinful flesh. But He chose to live His life in the Spirit, following His Father’s will and He tells us we can make this choice and follow His Father’s will in His strength. Phi 2:5 “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:”

Eph 4:21 "If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

Christ's Object Lessons-- Without a Wedding Garment====PG- 311
“…….When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah.”
Gal 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

Charlene:
When a sinner gives his life to Christ….the Walk in the spirit begins. It can’t be any other way, because to “convert” means to change in direction., turning from the path to Hell to the path to Heaven. To begin to love what you hated and hate what you once loved. We crucify our flesh at baptism, and learn each day what the spirit convicts us to crucify…..we die daily because we draw closer to God in the knowledge of God on a daily basis as we grow in Grace. The ladder of His Gifts are one step at a time and we will be judged by others by our fruits…Work of righteousness come from a righteous man. Works of filthy rags come from those buried alive, and still living and walking in the flesh. The fruits of the spirit shown in the lives of the saints will be the test of those that have crucified the flesh and are walking in the spirit. Like the example of our Redeemer.

Read the following very slow and prayerfully, rmembering that truths do not come all at once:

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald---DT- 06-28-92
Gospel Hearers--No. 5: Good-ground Hearers

"What an encouragement it is that the sower is not always to meet with disappointment. The seed is sometimes received into honest hearts. The hearer comprehends the truth, and does not resist the Holy Spirit or refuse to receive the impression of truth upon his heart. He feels he must be true to God, and true to himself. He receives the truth into the heart, and it
accomplishes its transforming work upon the character. He is not able to change his own heart, but the Holy Spirit, through his obedience to the truth, sanctifies the soul.

The good heart does not mean a heart without sin; for the gospel is to be preached to the lost. Jesus says, "I came not to call the righteous, but
sinners to repentance." The convicted sinner sees himself a transgressor in the great moral mirror, God's holy law. He looks upon the Saviour, upon the cross of Calvary, and asks why this great sacrifice was made; and the cross points to the holy law of God, which has been transgressed. It was to save the transgressor from ruin that he who was co-equal with God, offered up his life on Calvary. "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting
life." The law has no power to pardon the evil-doer; but Jesus has taken the sins of the transgressor upon himself, and as a sinner exercises faith in him as his sacrifice, Christ imputes his own righteousness to the guilty one.
There has been but one way of salvation since the days of Adam. "There is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." We have no reason to fear while we are looking to Jesus, believing that he is able to save all who come unto him."

I see the answer of "When do we experience moral perfection?" is:

When the seed begins to take root, justificatin, "new Birth" For we are told, "we may be perfect every step along the way" when we are climbing on the ladder of sanctification, we are Hidden in Christ at each step. Not completed or matured but perfect all along the way until fitted [complete and matured] for translation.

Sometimes we fall off the ladder, we than must go back to be justified again and start anew on the road of reformation. David is a good example of this. But praise the Lord, He gives the gift of true repentance.

I just discovered this thread and haven't had time to read clear through it, but I'll post the results of my study as to when we receive moral perfection. The answer, I believe, is in the Sanctuary.

"Thy way, O God, is in the Sanctuary." Psalm 77:13.

"Send thee help from the Sanctuary." Psalm 20:2. God is going to send us a lot of help from the Sanctuary. Through the Sanctuary is how we are perfected.

The Meaning of the Sanctuary

Justification

When one walked into the sanctuary, the first thing they saw was the big altar where the lambs were sacrificed. This alter represents the cross, since that is where Jesus, the Lamb of God, died. Here is where justification takes place. When we bring all our sins to the foot of the cross and ask for forgiveness (just like ancient Israel did when they slew the lamb) then we have just participated in justification. This is where we receive righteousness on the credit card principle. We aren't actually righteous, but the blood of Jesus covers our sins and His life covers ours, so that when Jesus looks at us all He sees is His own perfect life. Should our lives be snuffed out at this point, we are saved. In fact, the thief on the cross was saved through justification as he didn't have time to participate in sanctification. Here are some quotes about justification. “Let no one take the limited, narrow position that any of the works of man can help in the least possible way to liquidate the debt of his transgression. This is a fatal deception. If you would understand it, you must cease haggling over your pet ideas, and with humble hearts survey the atonement. This matter is so dimly comprehended that thousands upon thousands claiming to be sons of God are children of the wicked one, BECAUSE THEY WILL DEPEND ON THEIR OWN WORKS.” 1 SM p. 343. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8.

Baptism

The next article of furniture one saw was the laver where the priests washed before entering the sanctuary. This represents baptism. After we confess our sins and decide to become Christians, we are baptized.

Sanctification

The next articles of furniture are in the Holy Place--the 12 loaves of bread on the table, the alter of incense, and the candlestick. The bread represents Jesus as the Bread of Life. It also represents the Bible as the Word of Jesus. Interestingly, someone pointed out once that there were 2 piles of 6 loaves of bread each on this table, representing 66--which is the number of books in the Bible. The alter of incense represents the prayers of God's people and the incense represents the Holy Spirit purifying those prayers so they can reach the throne of God. The candlestick represents Jesus as the Light of the World and the oil in the candlestick represents the Holy Spirit. This whole room represents sanctification. We grow in our Christian walk through studying the Bible, through prayer, and through a relationship with Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. Here are some quotes about sanctification. “The so-called faith that does not WORK by love and purify the soul will not justify any man.” ST May 19, 1898. “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith BY MY WORKS. Ye see then how that BY WORKS a man is justified, and not by faith only.” James 2:18, 24.

Purification

The next room is the Most Holy Place which contained the Ark of the Covenant holding the Law of God. This Ark represents the throne of God. This room was only entered on the Day of Atonement, or Judgment Day, when the priest cleaned the blood off the alter in the courtyard and brought it in to the Most Holy Place, thus cleansing the sanctuary of all sin. This is the phase that I spoke of in my above post. Here's another interesting thought. I believe that anything in the Most Holy Place has a vital role in the Judgment. For instance, this room contained the Law of God which is the standard by which we are judged.

However, many people disregard the Mosaic Law which was placed in the side of the Ark. They say that by putting it there it is not so important and in fact was done away with. Well, Ellen White disagrees with this. Here's what she says. "Christ gave to Moses religious precepts which were to govern everyday life. These statutes were explicitly given to guard the ten commandments. THEY WERE NOT SHADOWY TYPES TO PASS AWAY WITH THE DEATH OF CHRIST. They were to be binding upon men in every age as long as time should last. These commands were enforced by the power of the moral law, and they clearly and definitely explained that law." ST April 15, 1875.

Here's another quote of Ellen White's that says that same thing. "That the obligations of the Decalogue might be more fully understood and enforced, additional precepts were given, illustrating and applying the principles of the Ten Commandments. These laws were called judgments, both because they were framed in infinite wisdom and equity and because the magistrates were to give judgment according to them. Unlike the Ten Commandments, they were delivered privately to Moses, who was to communicate them to the people." PP p. 310.

We have attended a Messianic Jewish congregation at times, and they told us the very same thing. They said that the Ten Commandments are like the chapter headings in a book, and the Mosaic Law is the detail of each chapter. Without the Mosaic Law, we are left guessing as to what God means by each commandment. For instance, in the Mosaic Law it says that if we dig a pit and our neighbor's cow falls into it and dies, then we are to pay our neighbor for this cow. This comes under the Ten Commandment of "Thou shalt not steal." Without this Mosaic Law, one could argue that they did not directly steal this cow from his neighbor and therefore did not have to pay his neighbor. But, with this Mosaic Law, one sees that anything that we do that causes our neighbor loss is considered stealing in God's eyes. Do you begin to understand the importance of the Mosaic Law?

Now, here's a quote showing a little more the importance of the Mosaic Law in our day. The closing words of Malachi are a prophecy regarding the work that should be done preparatory to the first and the second advent of Christ. This prophecy is introduced with the admonition, "Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. {SW, March 21, 1905 par. 1} This quote is from Malachi 4. Read all of Malachi 4 and see that this whole chapter is dealing with end-time events and then in the middle of this chapter is this interesting statement to remember the Mosaic Law. Here God and Ellen White are saying that the last generation should especially remember the Mosaic Law!

Yes, some things were done away with at the cross from this Mosaic Law. However, we should let the Bible itself tell us what was done away with. The only place in the whole Bible that specifically says what was done away with at the cross is Daniel 9:27 where it says that the Messiah would end the sacrifices and oblations (meaning offerings--like the grain and wine offerings that went along with the sacrificial system). I did a study on the word "ceremonial" on the Ellen White CD and over and over she defines "ceremonial" as being the "sacrificial system" and many times she then goes on to quote Daniel 9:27.

We who are going to face the Judgment of the Living need to especially understand the Mosaic Law and its great importance to us. It simply defines the Ten Commandments further that we not err! If we are going to have our sins blotted out and stand through the time of trouble without an intercessor, we need every advantage we can get! I believe this is why the Mosaic Law is in the Most Holy Place. Remember, anything in the Most Holy Place is of special importance for the Day of Atonement--the Day of Judgment.

Since God says in the NT that we are the temple (sanctuary) of God, then the whole sanctuary is simply a representation of how God saves us, what His part is, and what our part is. So simple and so beautiful! Thus, when the sanctuary is cleansed on the Day of Atonement this means that on our Judgment Day God will cleanse us of all sin and remove it forever from us. This is purification. Look up the word "purify" in the Ellen White CD and you will see that she speaks a lot of God's Church (His true people wherever they are) being purified during the time of the last generation. She also says that only when God's people "fully reflect" the character of Jesus will He come. Well, I look around, and I don't see anyone who is perfect. I believe that under sanctification we can reach the point where we no longer willfully sin, but sin is sin, and we can still unknowingly commit sin, thus preventing us from being perfect. So, God is going to have to do something special for the last generation in order to enable them to stand without an intercessor during the time of trouble because ANY SIN committed during this time, even if it is done unknowingly, will not have an intercessor so this sin can be forgiven, thus preventing this person from being saved.

Here's some of Ellen White quotes to this effect. "Those only who through faith in Christ OBEY ALL of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression." 6BC 1118. "Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. THIS IS THE CONDITION IN WHICH THOSE MUST BE FOUND WHO SHALL STAND IN THE TIME OF TROUBLE. GC p. 623. "None who have had the light of truth will enter the city of God as commandment breakers. His law lies at the foundation of His government in earth and in heaven. If they have knowingly trampled upon and despised His law on the earth, they will not be taken to heaven to do the same work there; THERE IS NO CHANGE OF CHARACTER WHEN CHRIST COMES." RH, August 25, 1885. "The mass of people think that if a person is prepared to die, he is prepared for the coming of the Lord. But they do not consider the difference between dying and standing alive to meet the Lord at His appearing. It is one thing to die in the Lord, to yield our spirits to Him while He is pleading for us before the Father's throne, and quite a different thing to stand in the time of trouble after Jesus has ceased to plead in man's behalf, after His priesthood is closed, and He is preparing to come to redeem His own, and take vengeance on His foes. They who realize these things will bless heaven that MEANS HAVE BEEN DEVISED IN THE MERCY OF GOD FOR THE PERFECTION OF THE SAINTS." Life Sketches of James and Ellen White, 1888 edition, p. 431. (This quote is one that got me to thinking that there is something different that happens for the last generation that does not happen for previous generations.)

What means has been devised for our perfection? Here it is. "As we seek God for the Holy Spirit, it will work in us meekness, humbleness of mind, a conscious dependence upon God for the PERFECTING LATTER RAIN." RH March 2, 1897.

Glorification

Glorification is simply when our bodies are changed and we are given immortality. When we are perfected, our MINDS are changed, but when we are given immortality our BODIES are changed. When does this happen? At the second coming. See 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.

Justification happens in a moment--the moment we confess our sins. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. Purification happens in a day--our DAY of Atonement. See Zechariah 4:9. And, lastly, glorification happens in a moment.

I will submit to you that any gospel that eliminates out any of the above steps is a gospel that presents a false balance. For instance, many in our church now preach justification only to the exclusion of sanctification. This produces cheap grace. Then, there is another smaller group who preach mostly sanctification--to the exclusion of justification. This produces legalism. But it is only when we combine all 4 steps that we see the perfect balance. Both groups hate this message. Why? Because the cheap grace group see that they will have to do more than they thought to enter heaven--which is sanctification. The legalist group see that they cannot "work" their way to heaven because sanctification alone will never get them to perfection. But, when all four are combined what beauty and what harmony we see! Also, when I finally understood this message, my fear for the time of trouble was removed. My biggest fear was that I would not make it through the time when Jesus is no longer interceding without sinning. Why? Because I could scarcely make it through a day without sinning now. Even if one produces "correct" outward behavior, if their motives were thoroughly analyzed, somewhere in the motives is an element of selfishness. That is because "all our righteousness is as filthy rags."

For me, this message has given me peace and a deeper love for my Savior whom I know is in heaven working at this moment for me in the sanctuary, and when my Day of Atonement comes up, He will perfect me if I have been participating in justification and sanctification (see Hebrews 10:14. Hallelujah!

In the context of the last post, can someone tell me who went into the holy place? Was it the common man, or did the priest, ONLY, minister in there?

We all, by faith, are to move thru the sanctuary. The entire plan of salvation is taught by the sanctuary doctrine in symbols. There is three parts to the sanctuary message, Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.

This is not a Sanctuary topic/study....the answer to the question of this thread is: If we are hid in God's love and covered by His righteousness....we are perfect in Christ from the time we enter thru the door[Christ] into the courtyard and thru the two apartments. Reaching maturity in the Most Holy Place....By faith this is done in cooperation with God for all saints that have submitted to the will of God.

The illustration of the sanctuary has been used to demonstrate the steps in the process of conversion, so it is on topic. And if we freely use the symbolism of the old sanctuary service, what I want to know is, did the common man enter the sanctuary, or was all the work symbolised by the candlesticks, etc, done by the priest? I don't know the answer, so I'm asking. If the priest did it all then, why would we do it now?

The common priests ministered daily in the Holy Apartment of the Sanctuary and only the High Priest entered the Most Holy once a year. The people only went in as far as the courtyard.

"Light was to be given, directing their minds to the temple of God in heaven; and as they should by faith follow their High Priest in His ministration there, new duties would be revealted." Great Controversy p. 425.

"And all who through the testimony of the Scriptures acept the same truths, following Christ by faith as He enters in before God to perform the last work of mediation, and at its close to receive His kingdom--all these are represented as going in to the marriage." Great Controversy p. 427-428.

"How much more essential in this antitypical Day of Atonement that we understand the work of our High Priest and know what duties are required of us." Great Controversy p. 431.

I used to wonder what the above quotes meant. Now I think I know. Because as we follow Jesus in His ministration in the Sanctuary it reveals to us the true gospel--what He is doing to save us and what our part is. What I outlined in my previous post is the study of following Jesus as He moves to the different apartments and what happens in each and what He does and what we are to do.

It is very important for us to know the spiritual application of the sanctuary service...the cleansing of the heavenly temple must correspond to the cleansing of our hearts. God returns for a pure people and this is the purification time....the cleansing of the sanctuary is the cleansing of the 'soul temple'Cleansing Sanctuary---cleansing soul temple

Manuscript Releases Volume Eleven
Christ's Work in the Sanctuary---PG- 54
"Cleansing the Heavenly Sanctuary and the Soul-Temple"
--"Godliness, sobriety, and consistency will characterize the life and example of every true Christian. The work which Christ is doing in the sanctuary above will
engage the thoughts and be the burden of the conversation, because by faith he has entered into the sanctuary. He is on earth, but his sympathies are in harmony with the work that Christ is doing in heaven. Christ is cleansing the heavenly sanctuary from the sins of the people, and it is the work of all who are laborers together with God to be cleansing the sanctuary of the soul from everything that is offensive to Him. Everything like evil surmising, envy, jealousy, enmity, and hatred, will be put away, for such things grieve the Holy Spirit of God and put Christ to an open shame. Love of self will not exist, nor will any engaged in this work be puffed up. The example of Christ's life, the consistency of his character, will make his influence far-reaching. He will be a living epistle, known and read of all men."--Ms. 15, 1886, pp. 2, 3. ("Christian Integrity in the Ministry," n.d.) White Estate Washington, D. C. July 9, 1981

The Sanctuary doctrine is one of the most important topics to learn. It is a saving soul study. We can't learn too much about it.

If 1 John 3:9 is supposed to mean that we begin morally defective and then eventually out grow our imperfections why does it say that born again believers do not and cannot sin? The reason given is - Because they are born again.

Since Jesus is an example of a born again believer why do we insist that they begin imperfect and eventually become perfect?

Since sin is not dealt with in the holy place why do we teach that sanctification is the process of slowly overcoming our moral defects of character?

Since the priest is an example of a born again believer why do we say we begin defect and then become perfect? Why don't we teach that self must first be crucified and buried before we can be born again?

Are we confusing the process of conversion with the product of conversion? According to the sanctuary illustration self is first crucified at the altar in the outer court, and then buried in the laver. And when we emerge from the laver we are born again a new man in Christ. At which point we immediately enter the holy place where we imitate the example of Jesus maturing in the fruit of the Spirit through Bible study, prayer, fellowship and outreach, which have nothing to do with sinning and repenting (all that happens and is accommodated outside the holy place).

How can we, using the sanctuary as our guide, teach that born again believers begin imperfect and gradually become perfect bouncing back and forth between the outer court and the holy place in and out of the sanctuary sinning and repenting?

Doesn't the sanctuary clearly teach that sin and self is first crucified and buried before we are born again a new man in Christ?

Maybe Mike because you are still looking at this man as a sinner after he comes to Christ. This is why we are not to ever look to man but only to Christ, the only perfect example for us. God does not see it that way. When we come to Christ and are born again, the refining of the gold begins. God then sees the finished procuct from the beginning because the life of this person is hidden in Christ. He sees Him as perfect and as long as the saving relationship is maintained....the growth continues to the full stature of God. He can keep us from falling. Man in his imperfection sees the inperfections of his peers.....but God knows the heart and knows the progress of each and every child of God. The Strength comes from Him and He feels the virtue when it departs from Him for all our Spiritual healings.

Have you read the Christ object lessons on the parable of the talents? Such good references for this subject, also "without a wedding garment". One does not overcome his sins then comes to God for a new birth.....One must be born again so God can work the miracle of reformation, recreation and a life of the new man.

you are right Mike about we cannot keep sinning and repenting and sinning again and repenting....a courtyard relationship with our maker is not a saving relationship...Me must progress to the other apartments. We must overcome as He overcame and that is why we must by faith enter into the Most Holy Place and our soul temples must be cleansed. God comes for a pure people and we are to be pure if we are fit for His kingdom. The purifying time is now....this is the time for us to not be asking for forgivness.....we are to be crying between the porch and the alter for the abominations that are happening in our church and crying "Lord How Long." But still the merciful God tarries....but not for long. Our instructions from our God is:

Tit 2:14 "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

Jam 4:8 "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded."

Mat 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Those that are translated when Christ appears in the clouds, will have fulfilled all the requiremnts of God. The promise of Eternal life is a free gift but all promises are conditional.

THE DAY OF ATONEMENT

On the Day of Atonement the sanctuary was cleansed of all sin. The sanctuary is a representation of God’s people. “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” 1 Corinthians 3:16. Likewise, on our personal Day of Atonement, which is when our name comes up in the Judgment, we will be cleansed of all sin. The Judgment is not something to be feared as many do, but rather something to look forward to!

“And the serpent saith unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die; For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:4-5. When Satan told Eve that when she ate the fruit of the tree she would gain a knowledge of evil, he was right. “The only knowledge they gained by their disobedience was a knowledge of sin and its results.” AUCR March 1, 1904. The knowledge of sin through experience is the definition of a sinful nature. When this experiential knowledge is removed from our minds then we will no longer have a sinful nature. Removing sin from our minds is the work of the Judgment.

“For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? Because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.” Hebrews 10:1-2. The subject of this text is obtaining perfection and it says that the sacrificial system was not sufficient to make us perfect. Then this text goes on to say that when God’s people are perfected (purged) they would have no more conscience of sins.” The word conscience, according to Strong’s Concordance, can also mean knowledge. This text is saying that when we are cleansed (perfected, purged) then we will have no more knowledge of sins, bringing us back to the perfect nature.

In the Bible the words “blot,” “purge,” and “cleanse” all mean the same thing and can be used interchangeably. Here’s the proof. “Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy loving kindness; according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies BLOT out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and CLEANSE me from my sin. PURGE me with hyssop, and I shall be CLEAN; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.” Psalm 51:1-2,7. When God cleanses us from all sin, which happens on our Judgment Day, then we are perfected and given the new nature. What wonderful news! This is the message of the Day of Atonement and as we observe this day we keep this wonderful news in mind.

“You will talk and we will not be thinking of ourselves and what others are doing, but what God and Jesus are doing…What are they doing? They are CLEANSING the SANCTUARY OF OUR SOULS of all unrighteousness, that our names may be written in the Lamb’s book of life, that our sins may be BLOTTED out when the times of REFRESHING shall come from the presence of the Lord.” Lift Him Up, p. 216.

The dead are given this gift of perfection after they are in the grave so that when they rise up at the resurrection they are perfect. This happens during the Judgment of the Dead, which is now going on and has been since The Day of Atonement in 1844.

When does the Judgment of the Living begin? Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.” Acts 3:19. The Judgment of the Living begins during the refreshing, or Latter Rain of the Holy Spirit, which happens during the Time of Trouble. The last generation is the ONLY generation to receive this wonderful gift while they are still alive. This gift enables them to go through the seven last plagues, which happens after the close of probation, without a mediator and without sinning. God’s people cannot sin during that time because there is no mediator. God knows this and so He gives them the gift of perfection before the close of probation. When we are perfect then it is easier to do good than to do evil. God’s people by this time will hate evil so much that they are no longer tempted by evil.

“So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance.” Great Controversy, p. 620.

“Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God’s commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression.” Ellen White’s comments in Bible Commentary, Vol. 6, p. 1118. “There is no change of character when Christ comes.” Review and Herald, August 25, 1885. The change of character is done on Judgment Day.

What wonderful news!

Charlene, I'm beginning to realize that we don't see eye to eye on the timing of the born again experience. As I see it, a born again believer is someone who has completely crucified the old man habits of sin (Rom 6:6 and Eph 4:24), someone who is dead to sin (Rom 6:7), someone who walks in the Spirit and does not sin (Gal 5:16), someone who does not and cannot sin while walking in the mind of the new man (1 John 3:9). They begin at conversion where Jesus began at conception. They, like Jesus, begin perfect and become perfect. Just like Jesus, they do not have defective traits of character to lay aside.

Jean, thank you for those thought provoking words. But I have always believed that we crucify our old man habits of sin or character imperfections under the influence of the early rain, and that during the latter rain our memory and record of sin is blotted out, so that we cannot recall our specific sins any more, and that we will receive our sinless flesh nature when Jesus returns and gives us a new body.

Mike,
I see Jesus sitting at His mothers knee, the Holy Spirit teaching and Jesus learning of His Father God the things that are right and wrong. I also see this for the born again Christian.

I see Mary saying NO, No to her Darling child when he wanted to do something harmful or wrong. I see we are told very little about the raising of this perfect child other than:

Luk 2:40 "And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man."

charlene: These two scriptures may also be said about the Baby Christian as he takes his first steps till he reaches maturity.

Do we not see the new convert waxing stronger and stronger gaining god's wisdom as he studies His word? Is the new born again Christian incresing in favor with God and man in his Christian growth. Do you see Jesus walking without a stumble? do you see Jesus running without a fall.? i can't believe that one completely gives ones heart to God and submits his will to Him that satan does not come in like a roaring lion and seeks whom he can devour.

Mike what does it meen to have your life hidden in Christ while you are walking the straight and narrow.? What does it mean to be wearing Christ's robe as we climb the steps to character perfection.? Taking steps are one at a time, not a quantum leap. Why is a saving relationship sanctification a process?

I see a Character is Built, one stone upon another. Each stone must be chiseled, hewn, sqared to fit the right place [heaven]. When God is the Cornerstone the building will be made accoring to His bluprint. Christ is the blueprint and all that pattern themselves after Him will come into harmony with the {code] will of God [His ten commandments}. This process is as slow as it takes the building to be finished....at each level [2Peter 1], the stones must be shaped. The process takes time to finish but the laborer is under the protection of the builder who says "come unto me all ye that labour and I will give you rest". The builder sees the finished product from the beginning, He has built before and has completed ever step before us. With our trust in His finished work, all the battles before us by faith gives us each victory. It takes time to build, some have very compicated structures to tear down before the main construction can take place:

In Heavenly Places---Infinite Power----PG- 17
"The only-begotten Son of God came to this world to redeem the fallen race. He has given us evidence of His great power. He will enable those who receive Him to build up characters free from all the tendencies that Satan reveals. We can resist the enemy and all his forces. The battle will be won, the victory gained, by him who chooses Christ as his leader, determined to do right because it is right. "

When this choice is made.....The building begins...New Birth. Reformation, turning around ones life.....new heart being put into place....new spirit guiding, teaching, prompting, learning new ways. Process started.

Mike, I believe that the conversion process (change of character) begins with Justification, continues through Sanctification as we grow, and then is completed at Purification which happens on Judgment Day. On Judgment Day is when we receive the perfect mind.

Ellen White is clear that there is no change of character at the Second Coming. “There is no change of character when Christ comes.” Review and Herald, August 25, 1885. Thus, we must have received moral perfection BEFORE the Second Coming. At the Second Coming we receive perfect bodies, or Glorification, which is immortality.

To recap, the perfect mind is completed at Judgment Day and the perfect body is completed at the Second Coming.

Here's an additional reason why I believe what I've just stated in my last post.

The last generation has to go through the Seven Last Plagues without a mediator in the Sanctuary, since Jesus stops His mediation with the close of probation. This means that during the time of the Seven Last Plagues God's people CANNOT sin because there is no mediator to deal with their sin. This leaves a terrible dilemma if we are still in our sinful nature, because in our sinful nature we sin all the time.

Examine the following quote carefully:

"The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from TRUE BELIEVERS as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. THEY ASCEND NOT IN SPOTLESS PURITY, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God." Selected Messages, Vol. 1, p. 344.

This quote is stating that the prayers of the righteous people of God, as long as they are in their sinful nature, are so corrupt that without Jesus' mediation, are too corrupt for God to hear.

This quote is not talking about the wicked--but rather the righteous! So, if we are that polluted in our sinful state, then, in order to stand without a mediator, then God HAS to give us the new nature BEFORE the Seven Last Plagues or else we don't stand a chance!

I realized all this before I came to an understanding of this truth and used to agonize over how I would stand through that time without a mediator without sinning. Now, I know that through the wonderful mercy of God He has provided a way of escape! When I fully understood this beautiful truth what a weight fell off my shoulders! And, my love for God increased tremendously! He isn't going to put us in a terrible bind during that time. He has made a way of escape!

The sad part is, because so many don't understand this truth, some are falling off on the right side and some on the left regarding this subject. In other words, one popular minister, whom I'm sure recognizes this dilemma, has written a book entitled Never Without An Intercessor. This book stated that God's people have an intercessor during the time of the Seven Last Plagues--in blatant defiance of Ellen White's quote where she plainly says we don't. Others on the other side are lowering the meaning of perfection, saying things like "as long as Jesus' blood covers us we are as perfect as is possible." Yes, Jesus' blood covering us is Justification--the first step, which is IMPUTED righteousness. But, if one studies thoroughly, one finds out that we also have to participate in IMPARTED righteousness, which is what sanctification and purification are all about. Preaching imputed righteousness only (righteousness on the credit card principle although in reality we are not righteous) is a false balance if we leave out sanctificaton and purification and lowers the standard of perfection.

In order to participate in purification (when we are given the new nature and our minds are made totally perfect) we have to participate in both Justification (imputed righteousness) AND Sanctification (imparted righteousness). The Bible makes this clear. Here's the text: "For by one offering He hath PERFECTED for ever them that are SANCTIFIED." Hebrews 10:14. God is saying here that He will perfect those who are participating in Sanctificaton and if one is truly participating in Sanctification then they have to also be participating in Justification because without Justification there is no Sanctification.

Anyway, I thought that perhaps there are some of you out there who have also been wrestling with this like I used to be, and I wish for you the wonderful PEACE, LOVE, AND JOY that one receives when they fully understand this beautiful truth.

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Jean Miller ]

quote:

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RH, September 19, 1912

Peter's Last Epistle and His Death

In the second letter addressed by Peter to those who had obtained "like precious faith" with himself, the apostle sets forth the divine plan for the development of Christian character. He writes:

"Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, according as his divine power hath unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

These words are full of instruction, and strike the key-note of victory. The apostle presents before the believers the ladder of Christian perfection, every step of which represents continual advancement in the knowledge of God, and in the climbing of which there is to be no standstill. Faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity are the rounds of the ladder. We are saved by climbing round after round, mounting step after step, to the height of Christ's ideal for us. Thus he is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.

God has called his people to glory and virtue, and these will be manifest in the lives of all who are truly connected with him. Having become partakers of the heavenly gift, they are to go on to perfection, being "kept by the power of God through faith." It is the glory of God to give his virtue to his children. He desires to see men and women reaching the highest standard; and when by faith they lay hold of the power of Christ, when they plead his unfailing promises, and claim them as their own, when with an importunity that will not be denied they seek for the power of the Holy Spirit, they will be made complete in him.

Having received the faith of the gospel, the next work of the believer is to add to his character virtue, and thus cleanse the heart and prepare the mind for the reception of the knowledge of God. This knowledge is the foundation of all true education and of all true service. It is the only real safeguard against temptation; and it is this alone that can make one like God in character. Through the knowledge of God and of his Son Jesus Christ, are given to the believer "all things that pertain unto life and godliness." No good gift is withheld from him who sincerely desires to obtain the righteousness of God.

"This is life eternal," Christ said, "that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." And the prophet Jeremiah declared: "Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: but let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord." Scarcely can the human mind comprehend the breadth and depth and height of the spiritual attainments of him who gains this knowledge.

None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection, and places before us the example of Christ's character. In his humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through cooperation with divinity human beings may in this life attain to perfection of a character. This is God's assurance to us that we too may obtain complete victory.

Before the believer is held out the wonderful possibility of being like Christ, obedient to all the principles of the law. But of himself man is utterly unable to reach this condition. The holiness that God's Word declares he must have before he can be saved, is the result of the working of divine grace, as he bows in submission to the discipline and restraining influences of the Spirit of truth. Man's obedience can be made perfect only by the incense of Christ's righteousness, which fills with divine fragrance every act of obedience. [b/The part of the Christian is to persevere in overcoming every fault. Constantly he is to pray to the Saviour to heal the disorders of his sinsick soul.[/b] He has not the wisdom nor the strength to overcome; these belong to the Lord, and he bestows them on those who in humiliation and contrition seek him for help.

The work of transformation from unholiness to holiness is a continuous one. Day by day God labors for man's sanctification, and man is to cooperate with him, putting forth persevering efforts in the cultivation of right habits. He is to add grace to grace; and as he thus works on the plan of addition, God works for him on the plan of multiplication. He is always ready to hear and answer the prayer of the contrite heart, and grace and peace are multiplied to his faithful ones. Gladly he grants them the blessings that they need in their struggle against the evils that beset them.

There are those who attempt to ascend the ladder of Christian progress; but as they advance, they begin to put their trust in the power of man, and soon lose sight of Jesus, the author and finisher of their faith. The result is failure--the loss of all that has been gained. Sad indeed is the condition of those who, becoming weary of the way, allow the enemy of souls to rob them of the Christian graces that have been developing in their hearts and lives. "He that lacketh these things," declares the apostle, "is blind, and can not see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

The apostle Peter had had a long experience in the things of God. His faith in God's power to save had strengthened with the years, until he had proved beyond question that there is no possibility of failure before the one who, advancing by faith, ascends round by round, ever upward and onward, to the topmost round of the ladder that reaches even to the portals of heaven.

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Avalee, this is a great article of Ellen White's on sanctification. I believe that it is possible to overcome all sin and to willfully stop sinning under sanctification. I believe this is the perfection that Ellen White is speaking of here. However, we will have to constantly battle our sinful nature until this nature is removed from us. Hebrews 10:13 says that God will perfect those who are being sanctified. I believe this is a promise that all who are growing under sanctification will have their sinful natures removed and be totally perfected in their minds.

Zechariah chapter 3 is also speaking of perfection. In this chapter Jesus says, "Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee." Verse 4. I believe this is speaking of the removal of our sinful natures from us. Later in the chapter it says, "I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day." Verse 9. What day is this? On what day does God cleanse sin? The Day of Atonement, or Judgment Day. Because of this Judgment Day is a day to eagerly anticipate and look forward to, rather than to fear.

Look up the word Judgment in Psalms and see that David looked forward to Judgment with eager anticiipation. He obviously must have understood this truth that Judgment is to be welcomed, not feared.

Charlene, I find it hard to believe that Jesus stumbled and fell in and out of sin as He grew from childhood to manhood. I'm sure that's not what you meant. Since Jesus is our example, the example of a born again believer, then we must conclude that the growth we experience after we've been born again does not involve gradually out growing our moral perfections of character - based on the fact it wasn't that way for Jesus.

Jean, thank you for clarifying that point. I too believe that when Jesus blots out our record and memory of specific sins our mind will perfect in the sense it no longer contains the memory of specific sins.

We are saved by grace through faith.

That means we are not saved by our perfect character or perfect moral.

By grace mean, God saved us in all our imperfect character but we have fruit of the Spirit, His love that seeks no self I our heart that opens the gate of heaven for us and allow us to live there.

In is love

James S.

Jesus cannot save anyone who willingly clings to a known defect of character.

Mike.

Jesus cannot save anyone who willingly clings to a known defect of character.

Unquote.

You are absolutely true! But my post is not saying about keeping a ‘willingly known defect character.”

I said as according to the Gospel of Christ, “you are flesh sold under SIN.” Your nature is self-love that is the SIN in you. Christ redeemed us from the wages of SIN, but it doesn’t change our nature unless we live by the Spirit, because “love” that seeks no self as fruit of the Spirit will be filled in our heart to change our nature of self-love. Now we could love our fellow man. But, since self-love is your nature that is the root of all selfish and flesh desires, the change of character is not an instant work. It is a life time work of the Spirit, and in that life time span, you may still do the deeds of the flesh (Romans 7:13-23; Galatians 5:17). This deeds happens not because you willingly cling to it desire (if so is the case, you are living by the flesh) but because it is your nature that you want and are going to defeat it by the power of the Spirit through faith, you are living after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

But this deeds, although it is a sin, but this sin “God will remember no more” as you are under His grace because of your faith in Christ and your life according to the Spirit. The law could not justify or condemn you since you are not under the law, you are not under the jurisdiction of the law. Read Romans 8:1-4, that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, not because the law can not touch them even though they are under the law (which s impossible; “they that sins under the law would be judge by the law” but because they live according to the Spirit and are not under the law (Galatians 5:18).

By clinging to a known defect character that is the same as living by the flesh and not by the Spirit.

In His love

James S.

Paul and Peter put it this way:

Romans
7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

1 Corinthians
9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

2 Peter
1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

When we crucify self (the old man) and are born again we begin partaking of the divine nature. But our sinful flesh nature continues to war against the Spirit and mind of our new man. Jesus does not change our nature, rather He empowers us to resist the unholy clamorings generated and communicated by it. We will not receive our new nature until Jesus changes us in the twinkling of an eye when He returns. 1 Cor 15.

John and Paul put it this way:

1 John
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

As a result of a new topic that may be somewhat of a duplicate of this topic, I am bringing this topic back to the top of the list of topics.