Who is in control - God or Satan?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Who is in control - God or Satan? - 06/12/01 12:20 AM
I once heard a Christian say - Times are tough, but thank God things aren't worse. And I had to ask myself - Is that the way God wants us to cope with the stuff of life?
What do you think? Who is in control - God or Satan? Why do bad things happen? But more importantly, who is responsible? Does God allow the Devil to do His dirty work? Or is Satan an out of control rouge angel who God is having a hard time keeping up with? What is the Jesus way to cope with trouble in our lives? Should we thank God things aren't worse? Or is there a better way?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 06/12/01 05:02 AM
I believe the following tells us who is in control:
quote:
1 John 4:4 "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."
__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace
Daryl 
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 11/03/01 03:28 AM
Now that we know who the greater power is and that He is also in control, why is it that it often seems that He is
not in control?
__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace
Daryl
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 11/13/01 09:13 AM
When it seems like God is not in control the fault rests with our perception of what it looks like when God is in control. If I'm reading Job correctly, or the story of Jesus, God is in control even (or especially) when things are apparently out of control. Does that make sense?
If God is not in control when bad things happen to good people - then who is? the Devil? I hope not. If God is ever not in control then Satan's accusations about Him would be true. Right? And since that can't be true, then we are correct in believing that God is in control when He allows bad things to happen.
How do you understand Eph 5:20 and 1 Thes 5:18? In the KJV.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 11/20/01 09:37 AM
A Big Western "Howdy" to Mike!
May I politely suggest that you may have used the wrong word in your first question?
You said: "Is that the way God wants us to COPE with the stuff of life?"
Does God even want us to "cope?"
Is "cope" the Word He would use?
I see God as using words like "overcome."
In other words; it has been my personal experience that God has not always removed some mountain of difficulty; but rather, has given me the wherewithal to climb to the top of the mountain, and down to the green valley on the other side.
(yes, sometimes the grass is greener on the other side)
Also, on this same note; God sometimes sees fit to have us become stronger "grow in grace," (2 Pet.3:18), by the very storm we are caught in...like the eagle, when riding on the stormy winds of the mountain passes near Calgary - he harnesses the strength of the storm to soar to the calm expanses above.
"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eageles."
"Coping" sounds like something Freud would use, and I certainly don't mean anything personal; but he did a lot of cocaine. Perhaps that is why he "coped."
Am I making any sense yet?
------------------
"...you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3
DavidTBattler
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 11/20/01 10:29 PM
David, thank you for those encouraging words. Does that mean I should stop using cocaine if I really want to experience the power of God during the tuff times? Ha!
Isn't there a song that says something about turning stumbling blocks into stepping stones? Sort of goes along with your wind on eagle wings. Thank you Jesus.
So, are we supposed to thank God "for" or "in" the tuff times? or both? If I'm reading Eph 5:20 and 1 Thes 5:18 correctly it would seem that both is the best answer.
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always FOR all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
1 Thes 5:18 IN every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 11/21/01 12:24 AM
I forgot to comment on those two verses Mike..
I have had some experiences for which I could only thank God for, years after the fact.
Those are the times when in order to apply these two verses; I had to think of something else to be thankful for, in the midst of whatever I was going through.
For instance; when I was seriously burned over 40% of my body; would God really expect me to me thankful for that, at the time I was experiencing the worst of it?
I don't think so...
Years later tho, I was able to look back and say, "Thankyou Jesus for that experience...things really do work for good..."
I think when we are in a really drastic trial, God expects us to come to Him just as we are; emotions and all. He doesn't want a phoney "holy roller," coming to him and saying "everything is just lovely Lord! Thankyou for these burns! I am enjoying them very much! Praise God from whom the blessings flow!"
------------------
"...you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3
DavidTBattler
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 11/21/01 12:35 AM
Yes, God is definitely in control
Giving thanks for everything is easily said from those references, but not so easily done. I am not saying not done, just not so easily done.
How easy is it to give thanks for the untimely death of a loved one, such as in the deaths surrounding September 11th?
Maybe the Insurance Companies are correct when they say their policy doesn't include acts of God in the sense that God being in control permits them to happen.
__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace
Daryl
[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited November 20, 2001).]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 11/22/01 06:02 AM
While it is true it is difficult to praise and thank God "for" all things while in the midst of some terrible trajedy, nevertheless it is apparently God's goal for us. Thus it would seem that we should strive to make it a habit to respond in accordance with the Bible promises whhen confronted with tuff times.
Obviously this divine response to difficult situations can be a reality in our lives only as we stay connected to Jesus, as we keep our eyes on Jesus, and as we trust Jesus to fulfill His promises in our daily experiences.
You might remember from previous posts in other threads where I talked about losing my daughter at the tender age of 10 to a head injury sustained during a fall. It was 7 years ago this month. It is probably the most challenging trial I have to live with. Yet through it all God has blessed me with peace and pain.
I know that when I get to heaven and my daughter and I will watch the rerun together that both of us will agree that considering how everyone and everything was touched by her untimely passing that Jesus made the best decision regarding her life by not intervening to send His angels to bear her up in their hands.
If it makes sense to Jesus now, and it will make sense to me then, then by the grace of God I can by faith make of sense of it today! even though I can't explain it right now. But that's the beauty of faith. Thank you Jesus.
But make no mistake, with my peace of mind comes the gift of pain. My heart often hurts. I miss my precious baby girl terribly. I have come to realize that peace and pain are maternal twins. They are rarely ever seen apart.
But in spite of this I can thank God for allowing my daughter to go to her rest, knowing that His pain is a million times more acute than mine. He was the One who allowed it to happen knowing that it was within His power to prevent her death.
Also I am comforted with the truth knowing that my daughters death wasn't the result of Satan's capricious, unregulated evil plot to just kill my baby. No, no!! God is in control - not Satan, not mankind, not death, not sin. Jesus allowed my sweet baby to die prematurely for reasons that makes sense to Him. And that soothes my aching soul.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/12/05 05:21 PM
I was tooling around in the old posts and found this.
It helps to gain insights as to why people see God as having absolute control when people go through pain.
As I had a daughter raped then killed: I can understand your pain, MM....
Yet and still, I cannot see that Satan is a partner with God, a tool of God's or a reluctant servant even.
I know that Satan killed my daughter, not God. Jesus is not responsible, as my daughter was not young, not saved, and not interested. She spurned God's protection and therefore walked outside of the "Castle" of His protection.
Accidental and young deaths? Ask Sister White about her young son.
Ask hundreds of saved folks who died victims of war, plagues and starvation...hopefully they do not tell themselves that He is responsible.
[ July 12, 2005, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: Phil N. D'blanc ]
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/12/05 09:54 PM
I too have suffered terrible loss. I won't go into details here, but will say that insofar as the suffering of one can allow one to sympathize with another, "I feel your pain."
My loss led to a closer relationship with God, so I'm thankful for that. However, I've never pictured God as having anything to do with what happened. He created His children with free will, and sin makes it inevitable for bad things to happen.
About the best treatment of this subject I've come accross is by Greg Boyd, a non-SDA, who wrote a book called, "Is God to Blame?" His answer is no, and the book is a wonderful book which defends God.
This is really a basic issue of the Great Controversy. Who is to blame? God is presenting the case -- a subtle case, which requires investigation and initiative on our part to "get" -- that He is not to blame. While not to blame, does God accept the responsibility.
It's a shame that so many who bear His name have opinions of Him which are, let's say, less than flattering.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/13/05 07:51 AM
I prefer to believe the promises that encourage us to praise and thank God "in" and "for" all things. I know Jesus is in control. Whether He prevents or allows tragedy is up to Him - not Satan.
1SM 269
[Satan] had, by his power, controlled cities and nations until their sin provoked the wrath of God to destroy them by fire, water, earthquakes, sword, famine, and pestilence. {1SM 269.2}
[ July 13, 2005, 02:43 AM: Message edited by: Mountain Man ]
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/13/05 02:58 PM
Are the unsaved controlled by God?
Does God usurp free will from rebels who hate and ignore Him? Would that be breaking His own 8th Commandment?
Are the promises for the redeemed who give control to Him...and only them?
Are there no such things as accidents?
EGW says that you either serve God or you serve the devil; how does this fit into Christian Fatalism?
What about this?:
"Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard." {CH 460.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/14/05 08:08 AM
Satan cannot control anyone without God's approval. Satan cannot do anything without God's permission. Satan maybe the prince of this world, but Jesus is still Lord! There is nothing fatalistic about God being in control. We are free to choose salvation, other than that we are the playthings of the Devil. We are not free, however, to derail God's plan regarding the final outcome of the great controversy.
Can the lamblike beast choose not to make an image to beast? not to enforce the mark of the beast?
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/14/05 05:50 PM
Does God "approve" of Satan, an insane destroyer of man and hater of Christ, controlling people?
Is the great controversy not really a controversy at all, but a pre-programmed and staged drama, where God let's the evil loose for a while on this planet just to show the rest of the universe how great and powerful He is when He crushes all opposition, sooner or later?
Or is it His wisdom, to let the rebels (angelic and human) choose whom they will serve, reap what they have sown, love what they want to love, keep their sin-disease or seek Him to cure them, and thus allowing the other intelligence through His vast Universe see how selfishness kills itself, so they can know the "wages of sin" are eternal death?
[ July 14, 2005, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: Phil N. D'blanc ]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/14/05 07:23 PM
The outcome of the GC has already been decided. According to the prophecies, God will win and Satan will lose. Whether or not we choose to be saved is up to us. But, we will not derail God's plan if we refuse to be saved. The two are related but separate aspects of the GC.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/15/05 12:44 AM
quote:
Satan cannot control anyone without God's approval. Satan cannot do anything without God's permission.
The first statement is vague. The second statement no one disputes. Obviously God is powerful enough to prevent any given thing from happening, so nothing can happen except He permits it. Nobody disputes that.
Returning to the first statement, if you mean "permission" by "approval" then again, no one disagrees. If by "approval" you mean that God approves, as in "give sanction to"
or "judge to be right or commendable; think well of" then that's another story. I think Phil took your meaning to be one of these, which is the normal meaning of the word. However, it is possible to have a more limited idea of the word "approval" so that it would be limited to "permits," so perhaps you could clarify your meaning.
I don't think anyone will dispute that the Great Controversy has been decided, so I'm not sure why you made that statement, unless you mean something different by it than how EGW discusses the subject in "It Is Finished" from "The Desire of Ages". There she presents the idea that Christ decided the Great Controversy by fully revealing the issues involved, such as the character of God and His Government, the character of Satan, and the nature of sin and death.
Until the cross, it was anything but decided. The battle Christ fought with Satan was a real batter, and one which Christ could have lost, as, for example, the following quote brings out:
quote:
Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss. Then we shall cast our crowns at His feet, and raise the song, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Rev. 5:12. {DA 131.2}
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/15/05 04:22 AM
Why should anyone sin if God is in control of him?
Is it possible to sin while God is in control of the one sinning?
Why would God loosen his control just enough so that one could sin, while he is control so that such would sin?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/16/05 06:39 AM
The great controversy didn’t end at the cross. “Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve.” (DA 761) So, how can we be sure God will tie up the lose ends, that He will eventually win the great controversy?
Yes, the words “approval” and “permission” can mean similar and different things. In the post quoted above I was using them as synonyms. However, I also happen to believe God manages the affairs men and angels, including evil angels. Whatever He approves is what He permits. In other words, He regulates everything that happens, by either causing it or permitting it, according to His divine will and plan. Death, disease, and disaster are all under the direct supervision of God. Satan is not at liberty to pick and choose this or that calamity to satisfy his evil heart. There are rules of engagement that determine what he can and cannot do, and God commissions holy angels, with orders to kill, to make sure evil angels abide by God’s rules.
Given has given us the freedom to accept or reject our personal salvation. However, we do not have His permission to derail the outcome of the great controversy. Like the evil angels, we are restricted by the rules of engagement. God will not allow the consequences of our choices to jeopardize the outcome of the great controversy. True, we manage the choices, but God manages the consequences.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/15/05 11:23 PM
MM, You use the words "the great controversy"; What is it about? What does it mean?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/16/05 08:50 AM
quote:
All humanity is now involved in a great controversy between Christ and Satan regarding the character of God, His law, and His sovereignty over the universe. This conflict originated in heaven when a created being, endowed with freedom of choice, in self-exaltation became Satan, God's adversary, and led into rebellion a portion of the angels. He introduced the spirit of rebellion into this world when he led Adam and Eve into sin. This human sin resulted in the distortion of the image of God in humanity, the disordering of the created world, and its eventual devastation at the time of the worldwide flood. Observed by the whole creation, this world became the arena of the universal conflict, out of which the God of love will ultimately be vindicated. To assist His people in this controversy, Christ sends the Holy Spirit and the loyal angels to guide, protect, and sustain them in the way of salvation.— SDA Fundamental Beliefs, 8
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-08.htm
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/17/05 03:05 AM
Thanks for the quote MM.
What I do not understand is how there could be a genuine controversy, much less a controversy about the character of God, given your view of God’s control.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/17/05 03:47 AM
Good point. I don't completely understand it, either. Before our Godhead created any FMAs, sinning and death were not possible. But then They contemplated creating FMAs capable of sinning and dying. Knowing in advance that Lucifer, one third of the angels, and the human race would introduce sin and death, They chose to create them anyhow.
Eventually, Lucifer rebelled, and the great controversy was born. There was war in heaven, and yet, our Godhead chose not to punish and destroy the evil angels at that time. The loyal angels would not have understood the ultimate relationship between sinning, death, punishment, and destruction, and so the evil angels were cast down to earth.
Our Godhead created mankind, on the same planet They banished the evil angels, knowing in advance that Adam and Eve would fail to disprove Satan's accusations, by refusng to eat the forbidden fruit, and thereby vindicate the kingdom and character of our Godhead. And yet They chose to create them anyhow.
But our first parents were not in the same position as the evil angels, and our Godhead knew in advance that the plan of salvation would, on a specific day and hour, vindicate Their kingdom and character, thus the great controversy includes the human race. Our Godhead is orchestrating the great controversy in such a way that the outcome vindicates Their kingdom and character, thus restoring law and order and peace.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/17/05 04:33 AM
quote:
Good point. I don't completely understand it, either.
I hope this does not mean that you insist on what you do not understand.
quote:
Our Godhead is orchestrating the great controversy in such a way that the outcome vindicates Their kingdom and character, thus restoring law and order and peace.
Sorry MM, but anything orchestrated can hardly be called genuine controversy; maybe a drama.
So if it not a genuine controversy, then the restoration of law and order and peace is not genuine either.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/17/05 10:24 AM
MM, you seem to be inconsistent in the view you are presenting. At first you speak in terms of "control" and "regulating" and nothing happens except what God "manages" which even includes evil angels. This implies predestination, not like foreknowledge. But then when you explain the Great Controversy you speak more in terms of Classic Armenianism, which is that God does not predestine the future but merely foresees it.
To set the issue simply, let me just ask what your view is regarding Lucifer. Did Lucifer sin because God controlled him? Did he sin because that's what God intended? In other words, was Lucifer simply carrying out God's will? Or did he act contrary to God's will, thus carrying out a plan contrary to God's will?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/17/05 07:57 PM
God could have chosen not to create FMAs. But that's not what He did. In spite of the fact He knew Lucifer and mankind would choose to rebel He created them anyhow. From the very beginning God has been in control of His choices and the consequences of His choices. God foresaw their rebellion, but He did God ordain it. He did not force them to rebel. He knew it would happen, and He made provision for it in advance – from eternity.
CS 274
Forethought is of far more value than afterthought--when a neglect of wise calculation and careful management is plainly seen to result in failure. {CS 274.2}
DA 22
The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}
ST 4-25-92
The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter him from carrying out his eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish his throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning; "known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." Therefore redemption was not an afterthought--a plan formulated after the fall of Adam--but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {ST, April 25, 1892 par. 1}
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/18/05 01:42 AM
MM
Your first quote is way out of context!: EGW is talking of sanitarium workers getting in debt, not God orchestrating evil angels and WWII!
Haven't you seized upon a word, "afterthought", ran with that, when no one here uses that term?
Back in Nov.13, 2001 you stated:
"If God is ever not in control then Satan's accusations about Him would be true."
Which control accusations are you refering to?
Is this in agreement with "Satan's accusations" or your thoughts, MM:
""We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which He determined with Himself what He willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather eternal life is preordained for some, eternal damnation for others."
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/18/05 03:32 AM
Phil, do you agree that forethought is of far more value than afterthought? If so, do you also agree that God foresaw the fall of men and angels? that His plan for dealing with sin, salvation, and the great controversy was not an afterthought?
Do you agree that Satan has accused of God of being unfair, selfish, indifferent, and many other things? As I see it, since God chose to create FMAs, knowing that men and angels would sin and rebel, it is His responsibility to implement a plan to deal with it, which, of course, He did. However, it would make God indifferent if He refused to manage it, and incompetent if it failed, both of which would support Satan’s accusations about God.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/18/05 04:30 AM
God could have had a plan of salvation in place, if sin were to rise and that would have been forethought; without him having to see to it that sin would arise, which would have been a plan.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/18/05 04:41 AM
Gents: Should we attempt to stick with Mike's original topic: God controls everything, and deal with foreknowledge somewhere else??
MM[ appears to teach that God manipulates people, death, Satan, angels, elements and time itself for His own self-justification.
Is not that what Satan actually accuses Him of? Is not Satan's argument that Christ Himself sets demands that only He can keep and then kills all who cannot meet it, unless they do what He says?
Isn't Satan saying control IS the issue?
Posted By: Will
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/18/05 04:59 AM
The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. This tells me immediately that God knew what was going to happen, and we know this because He has declared the end from the beginning see Isaiah 46:10, it's that easy.
God is going to destroy the wicked when He comes, they dont torch eachother, they dont strangle eachother, but they will not be able to stand in God's presence and we know this beccause Moses Himself had to be put in the cleft see Exodus 30:20-22. We see these things clearly outlined in the Bible.
quote:
Romans 6:16
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
What part of the english language do people not understand by sin unto death, the wages of sin is death? Make a choice either the winning team, or the losing team the choice is yours. God made us all with the option of choosing, you can either accept it, philosophize about how unfair it seems to want to be independent but have to burn because you want "freedom", or that God didnt really mean it when He clearly says that the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire a real fire, not an symbolic place designed by ILM to look like fire, or vice versa or whatever. We are in for the long haul people I sugggest we get past the formalities, stick to what the Bible says and stop trying to make God out to not know what He is doing, or that He is spineless. Thats what the devil wants......................................to confuse you.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/18/05 07:28 AM
Will, the Spirit of Prophesy says:
quote:
In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. ...The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}
It is the glory of God which destroys the wicked. Note that this same thing gives life to the righteous.
The wicked die because of their own choice. It is sin that results in their death, not God. This is an important point to understand.
MM: You did not answer my question, so I'll reask it. When Lucifer rebeled God, was he carrying out God's plan, or was he instituting a plan contrary to God's plan?
Posted By: Will
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/18/05 08:44 AM
I understand that Tom. I dont understand how anyone mixes up the fact that God is active in the destruction of the wicked. He does not want anyone to perish cause He sent His only begotten Son, so that we may all have life, but when Jesus comes let the filthy remain filthy, let the Holy remain Holy etc etc. We see that the wrath of God will be poured out and the wicked will die. Its not the first time this has happened.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/19/05 06:43 AM
John, where does it say that God had a plan in place just in case men or angels sinned? What is about the wording of the quotes posted above that implies God wasn’t absolutely sure Lucifer and mankind would sin and rebel?
Phil, foreknowledge has everything to do with control. Also, I have never used the word “manipulate” to describe God’s control of the great controversy. We manage our own choices, but God controls and manages the outcome. We can personally refuse to be saved, but we cannot choose to derail His corporate plan to win the great controversy. And, no, Satan has never accused God of being too involved, for caring too much. Quite the opposite is true. Satan has accused God of being indifferent, selfish, and self-serving, and for passing laws that not even He is willing or able to obey.
Will, of course, I agree with you. However, I must also admit that I have learned much about the glory of God from studying this topic with Tom and the others.
Tom, no, God’s plan did not require sin and rebellion. Yes, He foresaw it, but He did not require it, or make it happen. That is, He did not create Lucifer or mankind in such a way that they would eventually sin and rebel. Sin is not the result of a design flaw. Yes, God created the potential for sin and death when He created free moral agents. But He did not force them to sin.
But, by choosing to create them anyhow, knowing in advance that they would sin, God indirectly created an environment where a great controversy was inevitable. Remember, sin and death were not possible until after God created beings capable of sinning and dying. God’s vision did not, and still does not, include sinning and dying. His backup plan is the plan of salvation, and its purpose is to get things back on track, to help restore God’s vision – a universe full of free moral agents who give and receive His love unconditionally.
Posted By: Will
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/19/05 01:30 AM
I know what you are saying MM, and it is definitely one of learning, but what does it profit? what I am saying by this is that we can't be divided on issues regarding who is in control, nor can we be divided about the destruction of the wicked, or a lake of fire, nor about the Second Coming of Christ.
I guess I need to have more faith that God will make us all like the early church in which they agreed on everything.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/19/05 01:54 AM
MM: You still haven't answered my question, so I, being patient, will ask it again. My question is if Lucifer instituted a plan which was contrary to God's plan? Or was Lucifer carrying out God's plan? Your answer seems to be implying the former, but I'm not 100% sure.
Also you're contradicting yourself when you speak of God 100% sure what would happen but having a "back-up" plan. These two concepts don't go together. You spoke of God creating an environment where sin was "inevitable." If sin was "inevitable" then no "back up" plan would be possible.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/19/05 02:01 AM
Will:I understand that Tom.
Tom: I assume "that" is that the same thing that gives life to the wicked results in the death of the wicked. You say you understand this, yet I don't see anything in the rest of your response which demonstrates any understanding of this principle. Perhaps you could explain to me how the view you are advocating harmonizes with the idea that the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked, because I am not understanding how your view incorporates this thought.
Will: I dont understand how anyone mixes up the fact that God is active in the destruction of the wicked.
Tom: I don't think anyone is advocating the position that God is not active in the destruction of the wicked.
Will: He does not want anyone to perish cause He sent His only begotten Son, so that we may all have life, but when Jesus comes let the filthy remain filthy, let the Holy remain Holy etc etc. We see that the wrath of God will be poured out and the wicked will die. Its not the first time this has happened.
Tom: Nobody has died the second death, so it will be the first time (and only time) that it will happen when it does. The only person who has experience the second death up to the present time is Jesus Christ, so if we would learn of the principles involved in death, we would do well to study the cross. Indeed, it is in the context of discussing the implications of Christ's death that EGW presents what appears to me to be the most cogent view of the destruction of the wicked that I have read (the finishing paragraphs of "It Is Finished" in "The Desire of Ages").
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/19/05 03:14 AM
Will, I think mainline Adventism is in harmony on the great controversy, God's foreknowledge and control, the punishment and destruction of the unsaved in the lake of fire, and the second coming of Christ. There is apparently a small element of believers who disagree, who also would have us believe their views represent mainline Adventism. The issue regarding the glory of God, and how it relates to the punishment and destruction of the unsaved, is an insight especially unique to the SOP that is probably unfamiliar to most Adventists, at least, that's what I'm assuming.
Posted By: Will
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/19/05 03:25 AM
Hi Tom,
This is my understanding. When God comes for His people they will be saved from the destruction that will fall on the wicked and from thewrath of the Lamb.
I notice 2 distinctions though when He comes, and this is where I think the confusion either on my part, or on both sides occurrs.
While God is to the wicked a consuming fire (they will be destroyed), He is to His people a Sun and Shield. (pg.489 GC)
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/19/05 03:54 AM
Tom, good point. The expression “backup plan” doesn’t accurately reflect the truth about the plan of salvation. Since God knew in advance that men and angels would sin, His plan to go ahead and create them anyhow must have necessarily included the great controversy and the plan of salvation. But this insight does not imply God created men and angels to sin and rebel to fulfill His ultimate plan for the universe. Sin and rebellion were not necessary in order to safeguard the universe against a repetition of rebellion in the future. The following is the best we can say about why men and angels chose to sin and rebel:
GC 492, 493
It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government. {GC 492.2}
quote:
Did Lucifer institute a plan which was contrary to God's plan? Or was Lucifer carrying out God's plan?
My answer to these questions should be obvious by now, however, to avoid trying your patience any further than is necessary, not that you would run out, let me make it as clear as I possibly can. Lucifer didn’t do anything more or less than what God foresaw. And, neither has he done anything, nor will he do anything, more or less than what God foresaw before He created him. Yes, Lucifer did something God wished he hadn’t done, namely, sin and rebel. However, according to the quote posted above, we cannot make heads or tails out of why he chose to sin and rebel. We know God foresaw the fall of men and angels, but we do not know why they fell.
God’s plan for the universe, from eternity, obviously included (i.e., took into account or accommodated) the great controversy and the plan of salvation, therefore, Satan did not ruin God’s plan. Nor was it God’s plan for Lucifer to sin and rebel. It’s just way it is. Yes, he broke God's heart. Lucifer is acting out the part God foresaw, but we cannot explain why. It is an unexplainable, unaccountable mystery.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/19/05 04:00 AM
Will, is this the quote you had in mind? If so, it is interesting that it seems to imply that the saints require a shield while in the presence of God.
GC673
While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}
Posted By: Will
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/19/05 08:38 AM
Thats it MM!
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/19/05 11:10 PM
MM: Will, I think mainline Adventism is in harmony on the great controversy, God's foreknowledge and control, the punishment and destruction of the unsaved in the lake of fire, and the second coming of Christ. There is apparently a small element of believers who disagree, who also would have us believe their views represent mainline Adventism. The issue regarding the glory of God, and how it relates to the punishment and destruction of the unsaved, is an insight especially unique to the SOP that is probably unfamiliar to most Adventists, at least, that's what I'm assuming.
Tom: Your statement, even if it were true, wouldn't mean anything, because truth is not and never has been decided by numbers. If we want to decide things on the basis of number, we might as well become Catholics.
But despite that, there is no doubt that your own personal views are in the extreme minority and can be in no way construed as mainstream Adventism. You have stated that God is the "author of death". This is not mainstream Adventism. Your views are more akin to mainstream Calvinism than mainstream Adventism, which comes from a Wesleyan tradition, which is Arminianist in its roots, not Calvinistic. Given this it seems most odd to me that you would post a comment in which you apparently are attempting to put yourself as a part of mainstream Adventism, while those of us who hold the views of A. T. Jones, W. W. Prescott, E. J. Waggoner (all of which were strongly and repeatedly endorsed by the Spirit of Prophesy) and Ellen G. White herself are a "small element of believers."
Be that as it may, I agree that there are few who see the beauty in God's character, and it has always been Satan's plan to keep that beauty from being seen. However, I also believe that more and more are seeing the truth about God, and that the number of this "small element" is daily increasing, and this "element" also includes non-SDA's. I'm planning to post some things from a non-SDA author who writes things which are viturually indistinguishable from what Ty Gibson has wrote, and also EGW (perhaps most notably in her article "God manifest in the flesh").
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/19/05 11:18 PM
Thank for your answer to my questions, MM. You state that Lucifer did nothing more or less than what God foresaw, and that he did do something God wished he hadsn't done. You wrote:
quote:
Yes, Lucifer did something God wished he hadn’t done, namely, sin and rebel.
I'm having trouble what you mean by "wished" here. Since Lucifer would do nothing different in any degree that exactly that for which God had created Him, given that he does nothing more or less that what God foresaw he would do, in what sense can it be said that God "wished" Lucifer didn't do what God always knew He would? In the sense of "I wish I hadn't created Lucifer the way I did"?
At any rate, just to make clear, from your answers I am understanding that you are indeed asserting, ( and hence in agreement with me if this is true) that Lucifer did in fact put into action a plan which was contrary to God's plan. Hence it *is* possible for us to act contrary to God's will and institute plans that He "wishes" we wouldn't do. Correct?
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/20/05 01:50 AM
Tom states:
"But despite that, there is no doubt that your own personal views are in the extreme minority and can be in no way construed as mainstream Adventism. You have stated that God is the "author of death". This is not mainstream Adventism. Your views are more akin to mainstream Calvinism than mainstream Adventism, which comes from a Wesleyan tradition, which is Arminianist in its roots, not Calvinistic. Given this it seems most odd to me that you would post a comment in which you apparently are attempting to put yourself as a part of mainstream Adventism, while those of us who hold the views of A. T. Jones, W. W. Prescott, E. J. Waggoner (all of which were strongly and repeatedly endorsed by the Spirit of Prophesy) and Ellen G. White herself are a "small element of believers."
I see this as a very clear revelation of the thousands of posts I have read of MM's over the years. Thank you for boiling it done to the bare bones.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/20/05 02:46 AM
Tom, the quote "God is the author of death" must be understood in its broader context. Divorced from its context it does, indeed, sound absurd. Again, sin and death were not possible before God created beings capable of sinning and dying. I assume you agree with this basic premise. God knew in advance, before He started creating FMAs, that men and angels would sin and rebel. I assume you disagree with this basic premise.
God knows the end from the beginning, like watching a rerun. I know for a fact that you disagree with this basic premise. In spite of the fact God knew men and angels would sin, and would, therefore, have to die in the lake of fire, He chose to create them anyhow. He could have decided against creating FMAs, and sin and death never would have occurred. But that’s not what happened. The moment God chose to create men and angels, sin and death were inevitable. I assume you disagree with this basic premise.
God is the author of life. All life originates with God. Only God can sustain life. I assume you agree with this basic premise. When God chose to bestow life upon beings, who He knew in advance would sin and rebel, He created a situation where death was inevitable. Here is where it gets tricky. This is the part about the creation of men and angels that is shrouded in mystery. They were made perfect and holy, so why they chose to sin and rebel is unexplainable, a total mystery. Nevertheless, God foresaw it.
“But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. . . . Therefore redemption was not an afterthought . . . but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created.”
God foresaw the fall of men and angels. His plan for the universe accommodated it, but in no way is God to blame for the existence of the great controversy. Yes, if God hadn’t created them in the first place, sin and death would have been impossible. So, in one sense, God created a situation where sin and death was inevitable (not just possible). But He did not create them or cause them to fall. There was nothing wrong with how they were designed or created. They were perfectly suited to a life of happiness and holiness. The fact they fell is a great mystery. That God foresaw it and chose to create them anyhow is not a mystery. "... for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness."
“Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin.”
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/20/05 08:37 AM
What I was taking issue with, MM, was your apparent desire to place yourself as a part of Mainstream Adventism, while place others, who have expressed the following view:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}
MM, you have a number of ideas which are not mainstream. I just picked one at random. Asserting that God has killed billions upon billions of people is another. There's a whole long list. I can post them if you're interested.
The whole point is moot anyway, because, as I pointed out in the post you are responding to, truth is not decided by numbers. If we believe it does, then we should become Catholics. If we don't, then why bring up arguments that "I am mainstream, but you aren't."
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/20/05 02:08 PM
Tell us, please, MM:
Is God killing your fellow Arizonians in this heat wave?
Would you go on your local TV and state that?
If not, why not?
Is it His will that little old ladies die gasping for breath in sweltering heat? Would you say that if ask to preach their funerals?
Posted By: Will
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/20/05 07:05 PM
First and foremost I think some of the mudslinging to MM needs to tone down abit in regards to who is in control. Seriously Phil to put words in his mouth is far fetched.
One thing no one seems to grasp is that any little old lady who dies and is in Christ will come up in the first resurrection, so its a moot point. Its not about us, but about the Glory of His Name, so if you sleep the sleep of death that Christ can wake you up from.. you'll sleep, if you make it through then you do and Praise God for that!
His wrath will be poured out as we read in Revelation on the wicked, He wiped out all but 8 people, and even regretted creating the people that populated the pre-flood world, yet He had a remnant, who hearkened to the voice of God and lived, He turned Sodom & Gomorrah into a pile of ash.
God can and does do mamy things our finite minds do not grasp, and He wants us to live He knows what we are going through. He knows the end from the beginning. No where in the Bible is it stated that God is not in control, no where in the Bible is it stated that He does not destroy the wicked, ad we see in the Bible that he will give people over to their own lusts, and deceit, and He will hand them over to satan as well. he is not a robot who can only create, and save. He made the sun go backwards, and stopped time for starters.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/20/05 07:19 PM
I agree that we should watch our rhetoric, and sometimes Phil does come across to me as a bit sharp. However, this is not, IMO, one of these times. Phil did not put words in MM's mouth, but simply asked questions, and questions which are pertinent.
When one asserts that God is in control, what does that mean? Neither Phil nor I nor John B. has ever asserted, to the best of my knowledge, that God is not in control. Now what we mean by saying that God is in control, and what MM means, are very different, and Phil's questions are getting to the nitty gritty of what this difference is.
I'd ask you the same question as well. When you say that God is in control, what does that mean? Was it according to God's plan that sin should exist? Did He plan for Adam and Eve to sin? Or was that something which happened which was against His will?
Posted By: Will
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/20/05 07:47 PM
God did not plan for Adam & Eve to sin, nor did He plan for sin to exist. A house cannot be divided or it will fall.
God gave all His created creatures freedom of choice, and Lucifer in heaven chose to want to topple God by wanting to be like the Most High, and that serpent, the devil and satan were cast out of heaven. Eve was deceived, and Adam followed shortly thereafter because he hearkened to the voice of his wife. Both chose their allegiance, and disobeyed God.
God knows the end from the beginning, and had a plan to work this out, but it cost the life of His only begotten Son, thus the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.
As for getting to the nitty gritty, I hardly call statements like "Does God want little old ladies to die in a heatwave" the zenith of any discussion.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/20/05 08:12 PM
Tom, did I get it right? Did I accurately state which premises you agree with and which ones you disagree with? Mainstream Adventism. Does it matter? Well, it depends on the situation, right? No man is an island. We are accountable to one another. God is leading a church, not one or two individuals. The majority is not always wrong. There is usually safety in a multitude of counselors.
5T 293
There are a thousand temptations in disguise prepared for those who have the light of truth; and the only safety for any of us is in receiving no new doctrine, no new interpretation of the Scriptures, without first submitting it to brethren of experience. Lay it before them in a humble, teachable spirit, with earnest prayer; and if they see no light in it, yield to their judgment; for "in the multitude of counselors there is safety." {5T 293.1}
You keep asking if God planned for sin to exist, for men and angels to sin and rebel and die. Not in the sense that He wanted it to happen or that He thought it was necessary in order to safeguard against a repetition of it in the future. God foresaw it, and yet He chose to go through with it anyhow. As a result of His decision to create beings who would sin and rebel, who would have to be punished and destroyed in the lake of fire, sin and death were inevitable. Therefore, because God is merciful and just, His plan accommodated the great controversy and the plan of salvation.
Will, again, thank you for stating the truth so clearly, and so plainly. It is difficult, at times, to reconcile Sister White's many, and seemingly contradictory, statements concerning the glory of God, the lake of fire, and the future fate of the unsaved. It is clear, at least to you and me, that the glory of God and fire and brimstone are all factors that will be at work during the final demise of the unsaved.
Phil, there is a time and place for everything, right? It is not the time and place to explain the sovereignty of God when people are mourning the loss of loved ones. Jesus said, “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.” John 16:12. But, if God isn’t in control, then who is? And, why isn’t God in control? Why is He allowing someone else to be in control? If He is merely allowing bad things to happen, then why is He allowing bad things to happen? Does He lack the power or the desire to prevent it? Does He care what happens? In what way do you think God is control or not in control?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/20/05 10:11 PM
MM: You keep asking if God planned for sin to exist, for men and angels to sin and rebel and die. Not in the sense that He wanted it to happen or that He thought it was necessary in order to safeguard against a repetition of it in the future. God foresaw it, and yet He chose to go through with it anyhow.
Tom: I'll get back to your questions regarding if you got my premises correct.
Regarding what you are saying here, it appears to me your statements are conflicting. On the one hand you say that God did not plan for sin to happen in the sense that He wanted it to happen, but on the other you say God foresaw exactly what would inevitably happen (I added "inevitably" based on what you've written in previous conversations. I don't expect you to object to this inclusion.) So God chose to do something which could only have one possible result. So He did plan for it to happen, correct?
If I do something which I am 100% certain will result in one and only one thing, and I have the power to do that thing or not do it, and I choose to do that thing, how can it possibly be said that I didn't plan for the only possible result to happen? How could it be said that I didn't want it to happen?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/20/05 10:59 PM
MM: Sin and death were not possible before God created beings capable of sinning and dying. I assume you agree with this basic premise.
Tom: Yes.
MM: God knew in advance, before He started creating FMAs, that men and angels would sin and rebel. I assume you disagree with this basic premise.
Tom: I believe God knew of the possibility that men and angels would sin and rebel. I do not believe this possibility was inevitable.
MM: God knows the end from the beginning, like watching a rerun. I know for a fact that you disagree with this basic premise.
Tom: I do not believe the future is like a T.V. rerun. I believe it is dynamic and open, a work in progress.
I wish to make clear that my difference with you is NOT over God's foreknowledge. I, just like you, believe that God knows the future perfectly. Where we differ has nothing to do with God, but with the nature of the future. I believe that while the future is to some extent fixed, it is to a great degree open. We truly are creatures who are self-determining, so the future is not determined until we determine it.
MM: In spite of the fact God knew men and angels would sin, and would, therefore, have to die in the lake of fire, He chose to create them anyhow. He could have decided against creating FMAs, and sin and death never would have occurred. But that’s not what happened. The moment God chose to create men and angels, sin and death were inevitable. I assume you disagree with this basic premise.
Tom: I disagree with the statement that the moment God chose to create men and angels sin and death were inevitable. This is, I believe, a direct contradiction to the Spirit of Prophesy.
MM: God is the author of life. All life originates with God. Only God can sustain life. I assume you agree with this basic premise.
Tom: Yes.
MM: When God chose to bestow life upon beings, who He knew in advance would sin and rebel, He created a situation where death was inevitable.
Tom: No. Death was never inevitable. Death was the invention of Satan, and never a part of God's plan. Satan alone is the author of sin and death.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/21/05 12:05 AM
quote:
So God chose to do something which could only have one possible result. So He did plan for it to happen, correct?
Correct. He made His plans based on knowing it would happen, which is not the same thing as saying God wanted it to happen. He only had two options available to Him: to create them and deal with the sin problem, or not to create them and not deal with the sin problem. Obviously, God chose to create them.
Tom, here's what you posted:
quote:
I disagree with the statement that the moment God chose to create men and angels sin and death were inevitable. This is, I believe, a direct contradiction to the Spirit of Prophesy.
And here's what Sister White wrote:
quote:
But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter him from carrying out his eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish his throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning; "known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency.
How do you harmonize what you believe and what Sister White believed? How can God “know the future perfectly” and yet not know if men and angels would sin?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/21/05 12:59 AM
Old Tom: So God chose to do something which could only have one possible result. So He did plan for it to happen, correct?
MM: Correct. He made His plans based on knowing it would happen, which is not the same thing as saying God wanted it to happen.
Tom: So God planned for something to happen which He didn't want to happen? Also God set into motion a course of events which could have only one possible result, which was a result He didn't want?
MM: He only had two options available to Him: to create them and deal with the sin problem, or not to create them and not deal with the sin problem. Obviously, God chose to create them.
Tom: He could have created other creatures that wouldn't sin. That's an option anybody would choose who didn't want sin to exist, if they had the power to do so. If God created beings which would sin when He could have created beings which would not, then obviously He want sin to exist.
MM: Tom, here's what you posted:
quote: I disagree with the statement that the moment God chose to create men and angels sin and death were inevitable. This is, I believe, a direct contradiction to the Spirit of Prophesy.
And here's what Sister White wrote:
quote: But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter him from carrying out his eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish his throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning; "known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency.
How do you harmonize what you believe and what Sister White believed? How can God “know the future perfectly” and yet not know if men and angels would sin?
Tom: God knew of the possibilty of these things, but in spite of the possibilty, He went ahead. I believe she saws somewhere explicitly that God did not intend or plan for sin to occur. Maybe Phil, the great EGW quote finder, can bring this one up. I'm 100% sure a quote expressing this idea exists, but I can't remember the wording that was used.
It's simple logic that if God set into motion a course of evens which could have only one outcome, then God is responsible for that outcome. You've used this same logic yourself. The problem is that the conclusion is false. Now in logic there is an argument where you can argue by using the contrapositive. The argument works like this: if P -> Q then ~Q -> ~P. What this means is that if P implies Q, then not Q implies not P, or in English, if this implies that, then the reverse of that implies the reverse of this. So in the above argument we have:
1)God set into motion a chain of events which could have only one possible outcome, which is sin and death.
2)Therefore God is responsible for that outcome (or "God is to blame").
This argument is logically sound, meaning that the conclusion does indeed follow from the premise. However, the conclusion is false, as shown from the GC statement you have quoted yourself:
quote:
Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin. (GC 492, 493)
Therefore the premise is false. This is simple logic. The idea that God set into a motion a course of events which can only have one possible outcome has been disproved. Q.E.D.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/21/05 05:25 AM
Is this the quote, Bro.Tom?
"God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency."{DA 22.2}
It does not read:
"God knew He created a situation that would envitably cause sin, but did it anyway, because He wanted to prove His powers of control. There was no emergency at all; He orchestrated the entire stage-play. He's God: He can do whatever He likes."
Here are some auxiliary verses:
"God foresaw the workings of the arch-deceiver, every art and device in his crooked twistings and turnings. He knew that Satan's purpose was to make void the law of God..."{RH, September 6, 1898 par. 7}
"From Adam's day to ours there has been a succession of falls, each greater than the last, in every species of crime. God did not create a race of beings so devoid of ... moral power as now exists in the world. Disease of every kind has been fearfully increasing upon the race. This has not been by God's especial providence, but directly contrary to His will. It has come by man's disregard of the very means which God has ordained to shield him from the terrible evils existing."{Con 74.1}
I could go on, but three witnesses is the biblical standard for "those who have ears".
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/21/05 08:21 AM
No, that wasn't it (but thanks for the quotes you provided). It was stronger, along the lines of Adam and Eve sinning explicitly being something which God had not wanted to happen. Actually the fact that God commanded them not to eat of the forbidden fruit should be enough evidence in and of itself that that was not God's will. Plus the fact the we know God is good and sin is horrible; how could anyone even imagine that God would want something like this to happen?
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/22/05 06:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Plus the fact the we know God is good and sin is horrible; how could anyone even imagine that God would want something like this to happen?
I suppose the answer to this lies in the heart. I can't figure out why anyone would feel this way even in the slightest degree.
Perhaps it's faulty learning, or not seeing the sick side of sin. Maybe folks who have had little exposure to pain and death(outside their own)cannot explain the circumstances any better than "Well, God has everything under control. Peace, peace. Everything is all planned and managed by God. He makes life and kills, creates and destroys, yin and yangs, He's black and white....Peace..."
But if there is anyone, anywhere who thinks that God has called them to preach that message, I say this:
"God did not call me to listen indifferently to it."
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/21/05 08:35 PM
Jesus' message was one of non-acceptance of evil. He taugt that it should be actively resisted, and defeated. Paul summed up Jesus' teaching:
quote:
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Can evil be overcome with good? ("evil" is defined here as payback.)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/21/05 09:58 PM
While Tom and Phil are taking time out to lament the wickedness of my understanding of God's foreknoweldge, would anyone else like to share their understanding?
Or, am I the only one on MSDAOL who believes the following quotes clearly say God knew, before He created Lucifer and Adam and Eve, that they would choose to disobey the law?
quote:
But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter him from carrying out his eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish his throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning; "known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency.
Does knowing the end from the beginning mean knowing the beginning from the beginning? Or, does it mean knowing the end from the beginning? In other words, does God know everything that will happen between the beginning and the end? from eternity past to eternity future? By the way, when did the beginning begin and when will the end end?
Posted By: Will
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/21/05 10:36 PM
God knows everything from eternity past, and into eternity future, and everything in between.
He is a loving God who gives us a chance to make choices and many of us here have made plenty of wrong choices, but He still loves us because He instructs us, and His goodness leads us to repentance.
He doesn't want any of us to die (second death), and He made a plan which apparently is working because Jesus did come and take away our sins, and it is through Him we are cleansed and reconciled to God by His blood. Look at how many lives have been changed through Jesus Christ!
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/21/05 11:45 PM
I've made this point point many times, and suppose I'll have to make it many more times. The issue is not regarding God's foreknowledge; it's regarding the nature of the future.
Is the future determined? It is like a T.V. rerun?
MM, you are accusing me of lamenting your view of God's foreknowledge. Have I written such a thing? If so, where? I don't believe I have, but have repeatedly stated that I agree with you that God's foreknowledge is perfect; He knows the future exactly as it is. God is omniscient. I've not written anything different than this at any time, have I?
It's often convenient to sidetrack an argument rather than deal with the real issues involved, which I'll repeat: Is the future like a T.V. rerun? Is there only one possible thread for the line of time to follow? Is the future determined?
The arguments I have presented are all along these lines. For example:
If the future is like a T.V. rerun, then
1)How can it be said that God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss?
2)How can it be said that God is not to blame for sin?
3)How can it be said that we are to no only look for but to hasten the coming of Christ?
4)How can it be said that Christ could have come before now, in the 1888 era for example?
Note that none of these questions is addressing God's foreknowledge; all are addressing the nature of the future.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/22/05 03:54 AM
Tom, yes, from God’s perspective the future is like a rerun. He has already seen everything play out exactly the way it will happen. In this sense, the future is fixed. There is no other possible outcome. It can only unfold the way God has seen it. Of course, we humans do not know the future like a rerun, except for what God has revealed to us in the remaining unfulfilled unconditional prophecies.
My view and your view of God’s knowledge of the future are not the same, are they? That’s why I mentioned you and Phil together in my last post. Perhaps foreknowledge isn't the best word, maybe hindsight is more accurate. For God, the future is hindsight.
If the future is like a T.V. rerun, then
1)How can it be said that God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss?
Is this hyperbole expressed in the Bible?
2)How can it be said that God is not to blame for sin?
Because He didn’t force them to sin.
3)How can it be said that we are to no only look for but to hasten the coming of Christ?
Because we can and should.
4)How can it be said that Christ could have come before now, in the 1888 era for example?
Because what could have been should have been.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/22/05 04:52 AM
MM: Tom, yes, from God’s perspective the future is like a rerun.
Tom: While our perceptions of reality are different (ours and God's), the reality itself is not different for God than it is for us. Either the future is fixed or it isn't, and it is exactly the same way both for God and us. What I have been addressing is the underlying reality, not the perception of reality.
If your ideas were true, then we would not really be free. We would only have the perception of freedom. True freedom requires the possiblity of different outcomes based on decisions we freely make. If there are, in reality, no other possible outcomes than what the future really holds (the one future that God, according to your view, sees) then our freedom is purely imaginary.
This is the main point I've been trying to make. I believe our freedom is realy, not merely a perception.
MM: He has already seen everything play out exactly the way it will happen.
Tom: This is assuming the future can only happen one way. You see that, don't you?
MM: In this sense, the future is fixed. There is no other possible outcome. It can only unfold the way God has seen it.
Tom: Ok, if this is the case, then we are not free, because there is only one possible future. If the future is already determined before our input, then we are not self-determining creatures. We are really nothing more that very elaborate pre-programmed machines which have been programmed to belive they are free.
MM: Of course, we humans do not know the future like a rerun, except for what God has revealed to us in the remaining unfulfilled unconditional prophecies.
Tom: I agree that we do not know the future like a rerun.
MM: My view and your view of God’s knowledge of the future are not the same, are they?
Tom: Only in the sense that the future is different. Other than that, our views are the same. This is a point I've repeatedly tried to make.
MM: That’s why I mentioned you and Phil together in my last post. Perhaps foreknowledge isn't the best word, maybe hindsight is more accurate. For God, the future is hindsight.
Tom: If the future is hindsight, then my points about freedom should be seen even more easily. Can the past be changed? Can even God change the past? If the future is like the past, then clearly we cannot be free to change it any more than we are free to change the past. Our freedom is not real, in this case, but simply a trick of our minds.
MM: If the future is like a T.V. rerun, then
1)How can it be said that God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss?
Is this hyperbole expressed in the Bible?
Tom: Does it rain in Hawaii? What does this have to do with anything? What relationship does whether hyperbole exists in the Bible have to do with whether the Spirit of Prophesy is using hyperbole in the quotations I cited? The language is CLEARLY not that of a deliberate literary exageration, for the points I have repeatedly made, and points which you have not in the least addressed.
Look at the argument being made in the paragraphs cited. The statements EGW made were not made in a vacuum. They were in a context, and in each case she was making a specific point. For example, she made the point in COL that the value of a human soul can only be comprehended when we recognize the risk that Christ took to win it. Now if we don't recognize that Christ took any risk at all, then we cannot comprehend the value of a human soul. Her whole argument falls completely apart if we make the assumption that she was using hyperbole.
Hyperbole is like "All the perfumes of Arabia will not sweeten this little hand." It is not like "Remember Christ risked all."
MM: 2)How can it be said that God is not to blame for sin?
Because He didn’t force them to sin.
Tom: Sure He did, if He created creatures which could only do one thing.
MM: 3)How can it be said that we are to no only look for but to hasten the coming of Christ?
Because we can and should.
Tom: This is a contradiction to your statements above. For example: "He has already seen everything play out exactly the way it will happen." Note especially your last three words "it will happen." If the future can only happen in one way, then we cannot hasten the coming of Christ. It's like saying that 2+2 cannot equal 5 if 2+2 = 4. Either the future is fixed, or we can hasten Christ's coming. They can't both be true.
MM: 4)How can it be said that Christ could have come before now, in the 1888 era for example?
Because what could have been should have been.
Tom: In your paradigm "should have been" is a non-sensical phrase. There is only what would inevitably happen.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/22/05 08:41 AM
Tom, we are absolutely free to choose. It’s just that God knows in advance what we will choose. His knowing it before we choose it doesn’t rob us of our freedom to choose. From God’s perspective, from the standpoint of hindsight, the choices we end up making are as though they have already been decided and played out. Hindsight and the future are one and the same from God’s point of view.
I believe God sees and knows the end from the beginning, which, in my mind, is an expression that means God can look back at the beginning of history from the end of history, like rereading a history book. Whatever way history plays out, whatever way people choose, all these things are known to God as if it was already the end of time.
It’s no different when we study what has already transpired in the past. Whenever we read a history book we are reading about things that have already happened. The past is fixed. It is what it is, and our knowing about it doesn’t change what happened. Nor does it rob them of their freedom to choose. God has access to a history book that we cannot read. That book records the history of time from the beginning to the end. That book is in the mind of God.
Tom, we are not going to agree on the risk and eternal loss quote. I suggest we come back to it later on. The Bible nowhere implies the Father wasn’t sure if Jesus would sin and die. Until it can be proven, from the Bible, that the Father couldn’t be sure Jesus would succeed on the cross until after the fact, I am not comfortable interpreting the risk and eternal loss quote to unequivocally mean Jesus might have sinned and might have died eternally. Risk doesn’t necessarily mean sin or death, and eternal loss doesn’t necessarily mean sin or death. Neither sin, nor death, occurs in the context of the quote.
“… if He created creatures which could only do one thing.” Could and would mean two entirely different things, right? They could sin, that is, they were created with the ability, and the freedom, to obey or disobey. God knew ahead of time, from the standpoint of hindsight, that they would sin. Therefore, God is not to blame. Knowing they would sin is not same thing as saying they had no choice. The fact they chose to sin is evidence they were able to sin and free to sin.
Just because we are admonished to look for and to hasten the coming of Christ it does not mean God doesn’t know the exact day and hour Christ will return. Besides, what can we do to hasten or hinder the coming of the Lord? God knows no haste and no delay. He promised if we refuse to preach the gospel to everyone everywhere, according to our unique giftedness, that He would command the rocks to proclaim it. Whatever we do in response to the admonition to hasten the coming of Christ is already known to God. He’s already watched it play out. He knows the end from the beginning.
What could have been should have been is true. This principle applies to everything from the fall of Lucifer to the failure of Adventists in 1888 to grasp the third angel’s message and to proclaim it to the world. But saying so doesn’t make it so. Nor does it imply God does not know the exact day and hour Jesus will return. God has known from forever when Jesus will come again. Besides, the Adventists rejected the message, so it wasn’t possible for Jesus to return back then. Yes, if they hadn’t rejected it, Jesus would have returned. But God knew from the foundation of the world that they were going to blow it.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/22/05 10:22 AM
Sorry, MM but I never said you had a "wicked understanding"; those are your words alone.
No need to apologize; I can handle it, even though that is "bearing a false witness against your neighbor", in my opinion, wouldn't you say?
[ July 22, 2005, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: Phil N. D'blanc ]
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/22/05 02:42 PM
Yes...friends...I admit I do write sharply when it comes to several topics that are warped out of all biblical reality, in my opinion.
Here's why:
In Asia I do not have the luxury of evasion or squeamishness.
In the missionfield I cannot avoid answering the nitty gritty questions about family deaths, disasters and fate.
I am the only christian that hundreds of people know persoanlly; I am the only white Adventist on an island of millions. Whether anyone likes it or not, I must represent God's Last Message of Mercy.
I am always asked by Muslims, Buddhists and pagans in bold confrontations:
"Was the Acheh tsunami God's will?"
"Is your wife blind because of sin or is it God's doing?"
"Phil: Why did your christian God let 9/11 happen to His christian nation?"
If I have no answers that are any different than their fatalistic religious leaders; if I give them false comfort, homilies or guesses, I have the blood of souls on my hands. And God does not ordain that.
I do not believe in the worth of an objective, impersonal, detached christianity. I marvel at Adventists that gather their skirts around them when questioned too closely about their real lives, or real sinners, or real horrors of everyday life. Is life a marshmallow castle to some?
I admire men like Will, and Debbie's husband; who are short on words and long on shoe leather. I admire a poor Adventist who sent to our mission a "widow's mite" while out of work, because he knew that he could skip a meal, but couldn't withhold a SOP book to some poorer saint who didn't have the Bread of Life. I admire a certain Canadian that heard the Lord and acted immediately, to help the poor and the blind and the shepherdless.
So, yeah....I admit directness, but I will not admit to mean-spiritedness. If it's taken that way, I'm sorry for the tender-hearted child of God who thinks that. Simply consult with our Friend Jesus and he will explain the whole matter.
To me, the death of a heat victim is real, and demands real answers about God and His character.
Just today I consoled a young Muslim lady who just left London 3 days before the bombings: she is worried sick over her old friends there. Her imam (Muslim pastor) says it's all the will of God.
I will not lie to her.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/23/05 06:01 AM
Phil, if it's not the will of God, and if God is not in control of such things - then who is? What is God doing while bad things are happening? Has He no control over what happens? Are the angels releasing their hold on the four winds? If so, why? Who told them to loosen their grip? As your friends read the following insights in the books you give them to read, how do you explain it to them? Do you blame Satan? Or, do you tell them God is in control?
EW 38
I asked my accompanying angel the meaning of what I heard, and what the four angels were about to do. He said to me that it was God that restrained the powers, and that He gave His angels charge over things on the earth; that the four angels had power from God to hold the four winds, and that they were about to let them go; but while their hands were loosening, and the four winds were about to blow, the merciful eye of Jesus gazed on the remnant that were not sealed, and He raised His hands to the Father and pleaded with Him that He had spilled His blood for them. Then another angel was commissioned to fly swiftly to the four angels and bid them hold, until the servants of God were sealed with the seal of the living God in their foreheads. {EW 38.2}
HP 96
Were it not that God has commanded angelic agencies to control the satanic agencies that are seeking to break loose and to destroy, there would be no hope. But the winds are to be held until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads. {HP 96.3}
MAR 243
Just before we entered it [the time of trouble], we all received the seal of the living God. Then I saw the four angels cease to hold the four winds. And I saw famine, pestilence and sword, nation rose against nation, and the whole world was in confusion. {Mar 243.4}
MAR 266
John sees the elements of nature--earthquake, tempest, and political strife--represented as being held by four angels. These winds are under control until God gives the word to let them go. There is the safety of God's church. The angels of God do His bidding, holding back the winds of the earth, that the winds should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree, until the servants of God should be sealed in their foreheads. {Mar 266.2}
ML 308
Four mighty angels are still holding the four winds of the earth. Terrible destruction is forbidden to come in full. The accidents by land and by sea; the loss of life, steadily increasing, by storm, by tempest, by railroad disaster, by conflagration; the terrible floods, the earthquakes, and the winds will be the stirring up of the nations to one deadly combat, while the angels hold the four winds, forbidding the terrible power of Satan to be exercised in its fury until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads. {ML 308.2}
GC 614
The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/22/05 09:58 PM
MM: Tom, we are absolutely free to choose. It’s just that God knows in advance what we will choose. His knowing it before we choose it doesn’t rob us of our freedom to choose.
Tom: You keep bringing up this point, but it's irrelevant. The issue is not God's foreknowledge, but the nature of the future. Of course there's no logical link of causation between God's foreknoledge and our actions. That's obvious. No one is arguing that.
MM: From God’s perspective, from the standpoint of hindsight, the choices we end up making are as though they have already been decided and played out. Hindsight and the future are one and the same from God’s point of view.
Tom: Only if the future is fixed, correct? God can't see something which isn't real, correct? So your presumption that from God's perspective everything has already been played out presupposes that the future, in its reality (not simply God's perspective), is fixed. Do you agree with this?
MM: I believe God sees and knows the end from the beginning, which, in my mind, is an expression that means God can look back at the beginning of history from the end of history, like rereading a history book. Whatever way history plays out, whatever way people choose, all these things are known to God as if it was already the end of time.
It’s no different when we study what has already transpired in the past. Whenever we read a history book we are reading about things that have already happened. The past is fixed. It is what it is, and our knowing about it doesn’t change what happened. Nor does it rob them of their freedom to choose. God has access to a history book that we cannot read. That book records the history of time from the beginning to the end. That book is in the mind of God.
Tom: Everything you're writing here is presupposing that the future is fixed, just like the past. Do you agree with this assesment?
MM: Tom, we are not going to agree on the risk and eternal loss quote. I suggest we come back to it later on. The Bible nowhere implies the Father wasn’t sure if Jesus would sin and die. Until it can be proven, from the Bible, that the Father couldn’t be sure Jesus would succeed on the cross until after the fact, I am not comfortable interpreting the risk and eternal loss quote to unequivocally mean Jesus might have sinned and might have died eternally.
Tom: Is this a new doctrine? Should I ask you to quote all of your Spirit of Prophesy quotes from the Bible? Should we do away with all of them altogether?
MM: Risk doesn’t necessarily mean sin or death, and eternal loss doesn’t necessarily mean sin or death. Neither sin, nor death, occurs in the context of the quote.
Tom: What do you think "eternal loss" and "failure" means, MM? What do you think it means to say that all heaven was "imperiled"? ("Imperil" means "pose a threat to; present a danger to")
MM: “… if He created creatures which could only do one thing.” Could and would mean two entirely different things, right?
Tom: This is exactly the point I've been trying to make. I assert that God created creatures that *could* sin, not would. You assert that God created creatures that *would* sin. There's a big difference here.
MM: They could sin, that is, they were created with the ability, and the freedom, to obey or disobey.
Tom: Yes, but could they not sin? (i.e. refrain from sinning)
MM: God knew ahead of time, from the standpoint of hindsight, that they would sin. Therefore, God is not to blame. Knowing they would sin is not same thing as saying they had no choice. The fact they chose to sin is evidence they were able to sin and free to sin.
Tom: God's foreknowledge is not relevant to the nature of the future. It is what it is regardless of God's knowledge of it. God's knowledge simply *reflects* the reality which is.
If the future is fixed, then it is not possible that Adam and Eve could have acted any differently than they did. This should be clear. It's simple logic.
Let me put it another way. If Adam and Eve could have done something differently than what they did, then the future was not fixed for them. Instead, it was open, or dynamic, whatever synonymn you would like to use to signify the opposite of fixed.
MM: Just because we are admonished to look for and to hasten the coming of Christ it does not mean God doesn’t know the exact day and hour Christ will return.
Tom: What it means, MM, is that the future is not fixed, which was the subject at hand (at least the subject I've been talking about).
You keep talking about God's foreknowledge, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the nature of the future, which is what it is regardless of God's knowledge of it.
MM: Besides, what can we do to hasten or hinder the coming of the Lord? God knows no haste and no delay. He promised if we refuse to preach the gospel to everyone everywhere, according to our unique giftedness, that He would command the rocks to proclaim it. Whatever we do in response to the admonition to hasten the coming of Christ is already known to God. He’s already watched it play out. He knows the end from the beginning.
Tom: Is it possible for you to consider the future about from God's foreknowledge. I think your thinking of God's foreknowledge may be blocking your ability to see a simple logical construct, which is that the future cannot both be fixed and not fixed.
If Christ's coming can be hastened, then the future is not fixed. This has nothing to do with God's knowledge of the event.
MM: What could have been should have been is true.
Tom: "What could have been should have been is true." This isn't intelligible, is it? Did you mean, "What could have been should have been"? That is, what could have happened, should have happened. Is that what you meant? Or something else?
MM: This principle applies to everything from the fall of Lucifer to the failure of Adventists in 1888 to grasp the third angel’s message and to proclaim it to the world. But saying so doesn’t make it so.
Tom: But saying what is so doen't make what so? IOW, what is ths "so" refering to? Saying that Christ could have comed doesn't make His earlier coming a reality? Is that what you mean?
I think what you're saying is that earlier Adventists should have acted in a way in which Christ would have returned, but simply enunciating this fact does not make it a reality. Which is of course obvious. But it doesn't address the issue, which is that if the future is fixed, then they could have done no differently than what they did. The could only have acted differently if the future was open to multiple possibilities at the time they made the choices they did.
MM: Nor does it imply God does not know the exact day and hour Jesus will return.
Tom: This *would* imply that the future is fixed, if there is only one possible time Christ can come. You see that, correct?
MM: God has known from forever when Jesus will come again. Besides, the Adventists rejected the message, so it wasn’t possible for Jesus to return back then. Yes, if they hadn’t rejected it, Jesus would have returned. But God knew from the foundation of the world that they were going to blow it.
Tom: You seem to have the tacit assumption that God can know something from the beginning of time without that thing happening. This is a logical absurdity. If God has always known from the beginning of time that a certain thing will happen, then it *will* happen, without doubt. In this case the future is fixed, and it is not possible to anything to alter it. Do you see this?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/22/05 10:08 PM
I find the expression that "God is in control" to be very ambigous. I'm not aware that Phil, or anyone else, has intimated that God is not in control. I do not know why you (MM) keep brining up this point, or even what you mean by the phrase "God is in control." Of course God is in control; He's omnipotent. The universe is His. How could He not be in control? Noone disputes this fact.
The issue Phil, myself and others have been dealing with has to do with God's will. Was it God's will that the tsunami happened? I would say absolutely not. It came about because of Satan, the author of sin. Every evil thing that happens in this world can be traced back to him; sin and death was Satan's invention, not God's.
To know what God's will is, we have but to look at the life of Christ, who came not to destroy, but to heal.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/23/05 12:00 AM
Tom, I'll address your posts when I have more time, but for now, what do you make of these quotes:
DA 32
But like the stars in the vast circuit of their appointed path, God's purposes know no haste and no delay. . . . Providence had directed the movements of nations, and the tide of human impulse and influence, until the world was ripe for the coming of the Deliverer. {DA 32.2}
PP 88
Satan was urging upon men the belief that there was no reward for the righteous or punishment for the wicked, and that it was impossible for men to obey the divine statutes. {PP 88.2}
PP 96
As sin became general, it appeared less and less sinful, and they finally declared that the divine law was no longer in force; that it was contrary to the character of God to punish transgression; and they denied that His judgments were to be visited upon the earth. {PP 95.3}
PP 103
In Noah's day philosophers declared that it was impossible for the world to be destroyed by water; so now there are men of science who endeavor to show that the world cannot be destroyed by fire--that this would be inconsistent with the laws of nature. But the God of nature, the Maker and Controller of her laws, can use the works of His hands to serve His own purpose. {PP 103.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/23/05 01:27 AM
quote:
The issue is not God's foreknowledge, but the nature of the future.
Since God’s knowledge of the future is perfect, as you and I both agree, in what way, in your opinion, do we disagree? What do you mean by the nature of the future? How is God’s foreknowledge, or hindsight, different than, or unrelated to, the nature of the future?
Is the future fixed? Yes, from God’s point of view, it is. The future is history. God sees tomorrow from the perspective of yesterday. He views history from the end of time. God knows the beginning from the end. But just because God reads the future like a history book doesn’t mean we are robots.
quote:
You seem to have the tacit assumption that God can know something from the beginning of time without that thing happening. This is a logical absurdity. If God has always known from the beginning of time that a certain thing will happen, then it *will* happen, without doubt. In this case the future is fixed, and it is not possible to anything to alter it. Do you see this?
Yes, I see it. In your opinion, what does it mean – "I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done." Also, how do interpret the following insights:
DA 606
God counts the things that are not as though they were. He sees the end from the beginning, and beholds the result of His work as though it were now accomplished. {DA 606.1}
PP 43
He that ruleth in the heavens is the one who sees the end from the beginning--the one before whom the mysteries of the past and the future are alike outspread, and who, beyond the woe and darkness and ruin that sin has wrought, beholds the accomplishment of His own purposes of love and blessing. {PP 43.1}
SD 119
He whose servant you are, knows the end from the beginning. The events of tomorrow, which are hidden from your view, are open to the eyes of Him who is omnipotent. {SD 119.2}
3SG 113
God knows the end from the beginning. He knew before the birth of Jacob and Esau, just what characters they would both develop. {3SG 113.1}
UL 102
God's purposes are often veiled in mystery; they are incomprehensible to finite minds; but He who sees the end from the beginning knows better than we. {UL 102.4}
Regarding the differences between could and would. Again, God knew in advance that men and angels would sin. Do you agree with this insight? Yes, they were free to obey or disobey. “God made them free moral agents, capable of appreciating the wisdom and benevolence of His character and the justice of His requirements, and with full liberty to yield or to withhold obedience.” (PP 48) But God knew they would sin, but it doesn’t mean they weren’t free to obey.
quote:
That is, what could have happened, should have happened. Is that what you meant? Or something else?
Yes, that’s what I mean, which is also a truism. Do you agree?
quote:
But saying what is so doesn't make what so? IOW, what is the "so" referring to?
The fact Jesus could have, and should have, come back in 1888. Yes, the day and hour of Christ’s coming is fixed, therefore, Jesus has not returned yet. God knew from eternity that Adventists would not be ready for Jesus to return in 1888. The church and the world will not be ready for the second coming until the day and hour Jesus returns. The date is fixed, and the fixed date is based on divine hindsight.
quote:
This *would* imply that the future is fixed, if there is only one possible time Christ can come. You see that, correct?
Correct. There are numerous dates since 1844 when Jesus could have, and should have, returned. But neither the world nor the church was ready, therefore, Jesus was unable to return. The only time it will be possible for Jesus to return is on the date God has set, a date set based on divine hindsight.
quote:
Was it God's will that the tsunami happened? I would say absolutely not. It came about because of Satan, the author of sin. Every evil thing that happens in this world can be traced back to him; sin and death was Satan's invention, not God's.
I disagree. Satan is not in control. He received permission from God to employ the Asian Tsunami to cause devastation. What I mean by – God is in control – is nothing happens without God’s permission. “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.”
Regarding risk and eternal loss. Again, let’s come back to this one another time, okay? We seem to have reached an impasse.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/23/05 02:15 AM
Sigh...here we go again!
Wrapping your opinions within questions cannot hide your viewpoints; rather they expose them more than most of your statements, pastor.
MM said:
"Phil, if it's not the will of God, and if God is not in control of such things - then who is?"
By this quip I assume you mean that you are saying that the old ladies who died in the Arizona heat-wave died by God's design. Now, friend: that is cold fatalism by anyone's definition. That is laying the death of everyone at God's feet. But that's your choice. Sorry to see you admit this.
"What is God doing while bad things are happening?"
That depends on who the person is: a rebel at enmity with God or His born again child. He will not violate His laws of free will or force Himself where He is not wanted. Never.
"Has He no control over what happens?"
He controls the right way, not man's way. God is no dictator. He comes to the aid of His redeemed ones when and if they call upon Him and obey Him. That's His program: "Turn to Me and obey Me, and I can help you." Ya gotta actually do both. No pretending allowed.
"Are the angels releasing their hold on the four winds? If so, why? Who told them to loosen their grip?"This is too fustian to take as a serious question. You assume that God creates the winds of strife and war! "Hold back" means to prevent. Your theories make it sound like God is arm-wrestling Himself...I see that you have a habit of down-playing Satan in the Controversy to a minion's role. Satan is the author of strife, not God! How sad.
"As your friends read the following insights in the books you give them to read, how do you explain it to them? Do you blame Satan? Or, do you tell them God is in control?" AGAIN, one cannot assume God controls evil, sinful servants of Satan and sin. If my friends are born again, yes, God is in harmony with their lives to just the degree they let Him be, and no more. If they step out of His protection, they are Satan's prey. This is not God's fault, but their own. They understand this, and do not manufacture complex responsibilty shifting, face saving excuses.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/23/05 03:24 AM
Phil, it would appear that you do not agree with the view of God's sovereignty (control) that I have embraced. Thank you for sharing the view you have embraced. Happy Sabbath.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/23/05 05:59 AM
And a happy and enlightening Sabbath to you too, MM I pray the Master shows you His true character someday, when you are more willing.
No, I do not embrace your views of God in this regard at all. I did once, but no more. I have tasted of the fruits of the Promised Land and will never trade ot for the wax fruit of Earth, as God empowers me.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/23/05 06:13 AM
quote:
I have tasted of the fruits of the Promised Land ...
Amen! My wife and I are praying for the dear people reading the books sent to them. Please let them know. Thank you.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/26/05 12:38 AM
Tom, did you overlook my reply to you on page 3 (posted July 22, 2005 07:27 PM)?
Posted By: John H.
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/26/05 12:44 AM
It looks to me like the truth lies somewhere in between the views you two fellows (Phil & MM) are proposing.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/27/05 12:20 AM
Old Tom: The issue is not God's foreknowledge, but the nature of the future.
MM: Since God’s knowledge of the future is perfect, as you and I both agree, in what way, in your opinion, do we disagree?
Tom: We disagree regarding the nature of the future. You think it's fixed. I don't.
MM: What do you mean by the nature of the future?
Tom: I mean its characteristics, what is it like. Is it fixed, or not fixed. That's what I mean.
If the future is fixed, then there is only one path it can take; there's only one possible way things can happen. If the future is not fixed, then there are many different possibilities.
How is God’s foreknowledge, or hindsight, different than, or unrelated to, the nature of the future?
MM: Is the future fixed? Yes, from God’s point of view, it is. The future is history.
Tom: The future is fundamentally different than history, because history has already happened whereas the future is yet, well, future. That is, it is yet to be determined. It hasn't happened yet. So there are many different paths it can take. The past, OTOH, is prologue. It's done. There's only one possible path.
MM: God sees tomorrow from the perspective of yesterday. He views history from the end of time. God knows the beginning from the end. But just because God reads the future like a history book doesn’t mean we are robots.
Tom: Same comment I've made dozens of times. The issue is the nature of the future, not God's foreknowledge. Is it fixed? That's the question.
Old Tom: You seem to have the tacit assumption that God can know something from the beginning of time without that thing happening. This is a logical absurdity. If God has always known from the beginning of time that a certain thing will happen, then it *will* happen, without doubt. In this case the future is fixed, and it is not possible to anything to alter it. Do you see this?
MM: Yes, I see it. In your opinion, what does it mean – "I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done." Also, how do interpret the following insights:
Tom: The context of that actual quote is dealing with God's ability to bring about that which He says will happen. However, even thought this is not the context of this actual quote, I do believe God sees the future. I don't see how He couldn't. I just don't believe the future He sees is like a T.V. rerun. I believe it is vastly more complicated than that.
MM: DA 606
God counts the things that are not as though they were. He sees the end from the beginning, and beholds the result of His work as though it were now accomplished. {DA 606.1}
PP 43
He that ruleth in the heavens is the one who sees the end from the beginning--the one before whom the mysteries of the past and the future are alike outspread, and who, beyond the woe and darkness and ruin that sin has wrought, beholds the accomplishment of His own purposes of love and blessing. {PP 43.1}
SD 119
He whose servant you are, knows the end from the beginning. The events of tomorrow, which are hidden from your view, are open to the eyes of Him who is omnipotent. {SD 119.2}
3SG 113
God knows the end from the beginning. He knew before the birth of Jacob and Esau, just what characters they would both develop. {3SG 113.1}
UL 102
God's purposes are often veiled in mystery; they are incomprehensible to finite minds; but He who sees the end from the beginning knows better than we. {UL 102.4}
Regarding the differences between could and would. Again, God knew in advance that men and angels would sin. Do you agree with this insight?
Tom: He knew what would happen if they chose to sin. He knew that was possible. He also knew what would happen if they didn't sin. That was also possible.
MM: Yes, they were free to obey or disobey. “God made them free moral agents, capable of appreciating the wisdom and benevolence of His character and the justice of His requirements, and with full liberty to yield or to withhold obedience.” (PP 48) But God knew they would sin, but it doesn’t mean they weren’t free to obey.
Tom: If your statement implies it was inevitable that they would sin, then you have a logical impossibility. It's not possible for something to both be inevitable and yet maybe not happen. You agree with that, don't you?
Old Tom: That is, what could have happened, should have happened. Is that what you meant? Or something else?
MM: Yes, that’s what I mean, which is also a truism. Do you agree?
Tom: From your perspective, it doesn't make any sense. If only one thing can happen, then something else can't happen.
Old Tom: But saying what is so doesn't make what so? IOW, what is the "so" referring to?
MM: The fact Jesus could have, and should have, come back in 1888. Yes, the day and hour of Christ’s coming is fixed, therefore, Jesus has not returned yet.
Tom: This "therefore" doesn't follow. The reason the SOP gives that Christ didn't come is because the message God sent was not accepted. She says nothing about it being because the future is fixed , which idea would be impossible, given her viewpoint on things. For example, she wrote that all heaven was imperiled for our redemption, and that God sent Christ at the risk of failure and eternal loss. These ideas are antithetical to the idea that the future is fixed.
MM: God knew from eternity that Adventists would not be ready for Jesus to return in 1888. The church and the world will not be ready for the second coming until the day and hour Jesus returns. The date is fixed, and the fixed date is based on divine hindsight.
Tom: If the date is fixed, then it can't be altered, correct? If it can't be altered, then it can't be hastened, right? So, under your point of view, there's nothing we can do to hasten or delay Christ's coming.
Old Tom: This *would* imply that the future is fixed, if there is only one possible time Christ can come. You see that, correct?
MM: Correct.
Tom: Ok, so there's only one time when Christ can return; hence it's impossible to hasten or delay Christ's coming.
MM: There are numerous dates since 1844 when Jesus could have, and should have, returned.
Tom: Oops! Logical overide! If there's only one possible time that Christ can return, then it is nonsensical to speak of "could have" or "should have". There is only what will happen.
MM: But neither the world nor the church was ready, therefore, Jesus was unable to return.
Tom: This is true. The reason neither the world nor the church was ready was because the leadership of the church resisted the message which would have prepared them.
MM: The only time it will be possible for Jesus to return is on the date God has set, a date set based on divine hindsight.
Tom: The only time it will be possible for Jesus to return is when His character is perfectly reproduced with his people. That's the reason inspiration gives. We're even told we can hasten His coming, or delay it (which we have), which would of course be impossible if it were fixed.
Old Tom: Was it God's will that the tsunami happened? I would say absolutely not. It came about because of Satan, the author of sin. Every evil thing that happens in this world can be traced back to him; sin and death was Satan's invention, not God's.
MM: I disagree. Satan is not in control.
Tom: Disagree with what? I never said Satan was in control. I disagree. Mars is not purple. I can play this game too
.
MM: He received permission from God to employ the Asian Tsunami to cause devastation. What I mean by – God is in control – is nothing happens without God’s permission.
Tom: This isn't worth pointing out. Everybody knows this. Noone disputes it.
MM: “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.”
Regarding risk and eternal loss. Again, let’s come back to this one another time, okay? We seem to have reached an impasse.
Tom: I just respond to your posts as seems appropriate. You may discuss or not discuss whatever you wish, as you think is profitable.
I didn't respond earlier because I just missed this thread. I'm glad to have the opportunity to discuss these things. We seem to have chosen several subjects which are difficult to communicate on.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/27/05 05:28 AM
quote:
It's not possible for something to both be inevitable and yet maybe not happen. You agree with that, don't you?
Yes, I agree. But that’s not my point.
We both believe God’s knowledge of the future is perfect. The difference between us is that I believe His divine hindsight is equally as perfect. Thus, the two agree perfectly. They tell the same story, the same details. And none of it means men and angels did not have the freedom to choose to obey, to choose not to sin and rebel.
Knowing they could and would sin and rebel does not mean they were incapable of choosing, devoid of the power of choice. Do you agree men and angels were designed free, and that they exercised their freedom of choice to sin and rebel?
quote:
Originally posted by MM:
How is God’s foreknowledge, or hindsight, different than, or unrelated to, the nature of the future?
This is probably where we need to spend more time.
quote:
We seem to have chosen several subjects which are difficult to communicate on.
That’s the beauty of it. People have nothing to say when they agree on everything. Have you noticed how quickly a thread dies when everybody agrees? It’s sad, but true.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/27/05 06:49 AM
Old Tom: It's not possible for something to both be inevitable and yet maybe not happen. You agree with that, don't you?
MM: Yes, I agree. But that’s not my point.
Tom: That was my point! You maintain both things, yet you agree with me that they can't both be true. This is rather remarkable.
MM: We both believe God’s knowledge of the future is perfect. The difference between us is that I believe His divine hindsight is equally as perfect.
Tom: I agree that His hindsight is perfect as well. Where we disagree is you think the future is fixed or inevitable. I don't believe that.
MM: Thus, the two agree perfectly. They tell the same story, the same details. And none of it means men and angels did not have the freedom to choose to obey, to choose not to sin and rebel.
Tom: Certainly the fact that the past is fixed has no bearing on our freedom. However, if the future were fixed, we would have no freedom, just the perception of being free. To be free implies the ability to alter the future, to choose between options which may result in either this thing or that thing. If only one thing is possible, there is no choice.
MM: Knowing they could and would sin and rebel does not mean they were incapable of choosing, devoid of the power of choice.
Tom: You're like a broken record. I've never said that God's knowing something causes something else to occur. Actually this line of thought would be more in harmony with your way of thinking than mine. What I have been asserting is that if the future is fixed, or inevitable, then we are incapable of choosing; we only have the perception of choice.
MM: Do you agree men and angels were designed free, and that they exercised their freedom of choice to sin and rebel?
Tom: Why do you ask this?
Old MM:
How is God’s foreknowledge, or hindsight, different than, or unrelated to, the nature of the future?
MM: This is probably where we need to spend more time.
Tom: Ok. But you should know that foreknowledge and hindsight are two different things. Hindsight is "understanding the nature of an event after it has happened" while foresight is "seeing ahead; knowing in advance." Knowing the nature of an event after it has happened is different than knowing in advance.
Old Tom: We seem to have chosen several subjects which are difficult to communicate on.
MM: That’s the beauty of it. People have nothing to say when they agree on everything. Have you noticed how quickly a thread dies when everybody agrees? It’s sad, but true.
Tom: It's true that differences lead to conversation. I've learned a lot from out discussions, althugh I still don't really understand how you think. Your conception of God's character seems rather dark to me. I also feel frustrated by being able to communicate apparently simple ideas like the fact that if the future is fixed we cannot be free. However, you are by no means the only one who has trouble seeing this. Truth be told, how you see things is more common than how I do, although, interestingly enough, the viewpoint I have been expressing is the majority view among Christian philosophers (but the minority view of Christian theologians).
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/28/05 05:55 AM
quote:
I agree that His hindsight is perfect as well… But you should know that foreknowledge and hindsight are two different things… Knowing the nature of an event after it has happened is different than knowing in advance.
Herein lies the crux of our differences. I believe, from God’s perspective, which is different than it is for us, foreknowledge and hindsight are identical. He knows the end from the beginning. You believe, and correct me if I’m wrong, that God does not know our choices in advance, that He can accurately identify all the different choices we might make, but that He doesn’t know exactly which one we will decide on.
quote:
To be free implies the ability to alter the future, to choose between options which may result in either this thing or that thing.
We cannot alter the future because we don’t know the future. Only God knows the future. We are free to choose this or that way, but God has known from eternity the choices we will make. And we both agree it doesn’t rob us of our freedom and power of choice. So, what’s the problem?
quote:
What I have been asserting is that if the future is fixed, or inevitable, then we are incapable of choosing; we only have the perception of choice.
You keep referring to the power of choice, as if knowing what we will choose, before we choose it, somehow robs us of our ability or capability to choose. The future, from God’s perspective, is based on the choices we are going to make. Since God knows our choices in advance, the future, from God’s perspective, is fixed or inevitable. It’s not fixed from our perspective. Why? Because we do not know the future, except for the things God has revealed to us in the Bible, or might reveal to us in a dream or vision.
quote:
Your conception of God's character seems rather dark to me.
I’m sorry you feel that way. You’re the only person I know of personally who feels that way about the view I have embraced. As I have taught it over the years it has been a source of great comfort to many sorrowful souls.
quote:
Truth be told, how you see things is more common than how I do…
Then it shouldn’t be so terribly frustrating for you, right? I mean, if the view I favor is the more common one, then I'm not the only one, in your opinion, who just isn't getting it.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/28/05 07:36 AM
Old Tom:I agree that His hindsight is perfect as well… But you should know that foreknowledge and hindsight are two different things… Knowing the nature of an event after it has happened is different than knowing in advance.
MM: Herein lies the crux of our differences. I believe, from God’s perspective, which is different than it is for us, foreknowledge and hindsight are identical.
Tom: What God's perspective is is irrelevant to the quesiont I have been discussing, which is the nature of the future. I have made this point many times. Perception does not change reality. God can only perceive things as they are, hence hindsight could only be the same as foresight if the past were the same as the future. However these things are not the same. The past relates to things which have already happened. They have no potential. The future, OTOH, is potential.
MM: He knows the end from the beginning. You believe, and correct me if I’m wrong, that God does not know our choices in advance, that He can accurately identify all the different choices we might make, but that He doesn’t know exactly which one we will decide on.
Tom: What you're saying here is illogical. If the future is fixed, there is no such thing as "differenct choices" just as there is no such thing in the past. This is only what will be.
Old Tom: To be free implies the ability to alter the future, to choose between options which may result in either this thing or that thing.
MM: We cannot alter the future because we don’t know the future.
Tom: The future does not depend on being known, any more than the past or present does. Our ability to alter the future has absolutely nothing to do with our knowing it.
MM: Only God knows the future.
Tom: Which remains irrelevant to whether or not the future is fixed.
MM: We are free to choose this or that way, but God has known from eternity the choices we will make.
Tom: This is logically impossible. If God has known something from all eternity, there's no possible way the thing He knows can not happen. Do you see this? Surely you agree with this, don't you? This is very obvious. If you disagree, let me know, and I will develop this point further. But for now, I will assume you agree.
Ok, now given that if God has known something will occur from all eternity that the thing He knows must occur, then we are not free to choose anything different than what God knows will occur. Do you see this? If not, I will develop this point.
Ok, now let's consider a thing we are conserding which has two options, A and B.
1)God has known from all eternity that A will occur.
2)Therefore A must occur.
3)Therefore we must choose A.
4)We cannot choose B, because that would contradict 1).
MM, do you follow this argument? Do you see that is is valid? If you do not agree that the argument is valid, please point out the step (or steps) which is (are) invalid.
Now if we cannot choose B, then we are not free, because freedom necessitates that *actual* ability to choose A or B, not just the perception of such.
Do you understand the point I'm making, MM? If you disagree, please don't just say "I disagree. God knows the future, but we are still free to choose what we wish because His knowledge of the future doesn't force us to do such and such." I know you think this, but you have not seen the logical inconsistency of your position. I am attempting to make this clear.
If you understand the argument, but disagree with it, please respond along the lines of "I disagree with step such and such because of blah blah blah." That is, you should either point out why one of the steps is itself false, or why a given step does not imply what I assert it does.
MM: And we both agree it doesn’t rob us of our freedom and power of choice. So, what’s the problem?
Tom: The problem is you are holding to a logically impossible position, which is that the future is fixed yet we are free.
Old Tom: What I have been asserting is that if the future is fixed, or inevitable, then we are incapable of choosing; we only have the perception of choice.
MM: You keep referring to the power of choice, as if knowing what we will choose, before we choose it, somehow robs us of our ability or capability to choose.
Tom: No, I'm not addressing this at all. I'm addressing the point that if the future is fixed, then we cannot choose differently that what is fixed. This has nothing to with our knowledge, or God's knowledge, of anything.
MM: The future, from God’s perspective, is based on the choices we are going to make. Since God knows our choices in advance, the future, from God’s perspective, is fixed or inevitable.
Tom: If it is fixed from God's perspective, then it is fixed. Period. End of story. God's perception is always equivalent to reality. So if God perceives the future is fixed, then it is. Surely you agree with this, don't you?
MM: It’s not fixed from our perspective.
Tom: If you hold to the position that that future is fixed according to God's perspective, but not to ours, then, if you are logical, you must agree with my assertion that our freedom is only perceptual and not actual. God's perception necessarily corresponds to reality. Our does not necessarily correspond to reality. So if God's perception differs from ours, His must be correct and ours must be wrong. So the future really is fixed, and we only have the *perception* (and a wrong one at that) that we can do something to alter it.
MM: Why? Because we do not know the future, except for the things God has revealed to us in the Bible, or might reveal to us in a dream or vision.
Tom: This is an irrelevant point. Our knowledge of the future does not have anything to do with its reality.
Old Tom: Your conception of God's character seems rather dark to me.
MM:I’m sorry you feel that way. You’re the only person I know of personally who feels that way about the view I have embraced.
Tom:You may ask the opinion of others. Truth is not decided by numbers, but I'm sure, for whatever it's worth, that there are others who share my viewpoint. However, you may think my view of God's character is wimpy or not legal or controling enough.
MM: As I have taught it over the years it has been a source of great comfort to many sorrowful souls.
Tom: What is comforting about the view of God you hold? You see Him as bloodthirsty, vengeful and killing billions upon billions, One who will forcibly torture those who disagree with Him in molten lave (or something equivalent). You see Him as the author of sin and death (these are all direct quotes of yours, by the way, which I can produce if requested).
Old Tom: Truth be told, how you see things is more common than how I do…
MM: Then it shouldn’t be so terribly frustrating for you, right? I mean, if the view I favor is the more common one, then I'm not the only one, in your opinion, who just isn't getting it.
Tom: No, you're by no means not the only one who doesn't get it. I've always been a logical person, born that way, and was trained in mathematics, and am a computer programmer, where logic is paramount. Many people have difficulty with logic. That I get frustrated is a shortcoming on my part.
I will say that I really appreciate your continuing this dialogue. It has helped me develop clearer thoughts and arguments, which I appreciate.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/28/05 07:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MM:
You believe, and correct me if I’m wrong, that God does not know our choices in advance, that He can accurately identify all the different choices we might make, but that He doesn’t know exactly which one we will decide on.
Is this how you believe?
quote:
If God has known something from all eternity, there's no possible way the thing He knows can not happen… then we are not free to choose anything different than what God knows will occur. Do you see this?
No. We are always free to choose. God designed us that way. The fact God knows in advance exactly how we will exercise our power of choice does not mean we are not free to choose. True, we will do exactly what God has known all along. But it is only because we are free to choose, not because we are devoid of the ability to choose. We both agree on this point, right?
quote:
The problem is you are holding to a logically impossible position, which is that the future is fixed yet we are free… I'm addressing the point that if the future is fixed, then we cannot choose differently that what is fixed.
I wouldn’t use the word “cannot”, instead I would say “will not”. In other words, since the future is fixed, like a rerun, we will not choose differently than what is fixed.
quote:
So the future really is fixed, and we only have the *perception* (and a wrong one at that) that we can do something to alter it.
Since we do not know the future we cannot alter it. All we can do is what we choose to do. And God has known from eternity, like reading a history book, exactly what we will choose to do.
You and I both agree if God knows the future like He knows the past, like reading a history book, then everything I’m saying about the future and our freedom to choose is true. It’s just that I believe it and you do not. Or, did I misunderstand you?
Since I believe God has already watched history play out, from the end of time looking backwards to the beginning of time, He knows everything that will happen, before it happens, like watching a rerun. Do you agree? If not, then this would account for our inability to agree on God's role during the great controversy, and His right and ability to control and manage the outcome.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/28/05 11:17 PM
Old MM:You believe, and correct me if I’m wrong, that God does not know our choices in advance, that He can accurately identify all the different choices we might make, but that He doesn’t know exactly which one we will decide on.
MM:Is this how you believe?
Tom:I wouldn't put it exactly like that, but that's close enough. Basically I believe the future is not fixed, so God does not see it as something fixed and simple but rather His view of the future is open and vast. He sees all the possibilities together, some being more probable than others. God is also at work within the universe, and He can foresee everything He does and the impact that has.
Old Tom: If God has known something from all eternity, there's no possible way the thing He knows can not happen… then we are not free to choose anything different than what God knows will occur. Do you see this?
MM: No. We are always free to choose. God designed us that way. The fact God knows in advance exactly how we will exercise our power of choice does not mean we are not free to choose. True, we will do exactly what God has known all along. But it is only because we are free to choose, not because we are devoid of the ability to choose. We both agree on this point, right?
Tom: No, I don't agree. From my perspective you're pretty much writing that white is black. You are asserting that God has known from all eternity that a given thing will happen, yet it is possible for that thing not to happen, which, it appears to me, is utter nonsense, like saying white is black.
Here's the problem. If God knows has always known something will happen from all eternity, then that thing must happen. You agree with this, correct? So let's pick a specific thing. God has known from all eternity that I will have pizza for lunch tomorrow. Ok, now is it possible for me to not have pizza for lunch tomorrow? The answer is no, because if I had something other than pizza for lunch tomorrow then God would have been wrong about something He knew from all eternity, which is impossible.
Here's the argument laid out more formally:
1)God has known from all eternity that I will have pizza tomorrow for lunch.
2)Therefore I will have pizza for lunch tomorrow.
It should be made clear that 1) does not cause 2) from a sense of force, but from a sense of logic. God is not forcing me to have pizza for lunch tomorrow, but it is a logical consequence of step 1) that I will have pizza for lunch tomorrow.
Now let's consider the contrapositive. Remember that if an argument is valid, the fact that A implies B means that ~A impies ~B (i.e., the converse of A implies the converse of B). So we assume I do not have pizza for lunch tomorrow we have:
~2) I do not have pizza for lunch tomorrow.
~1) God has not known for all eternity that I will have pizza tomorrow.
But we started out assuming that 1) was true, therefore ~2 is not possible. Hence it is not possible for me to have pizza tomorrow. Hence, I do not have the freedom of choosing not to eat pizza tomorrow. I only have the perception of being able to make a choice other than pizza, not the actual ability to choose other than pizza.
I hope this is clear!
Old Tom: The problem is you are holding to a logically impossible position, which is that the future is fixed yet we are free… I'm addressing the point that if the future is fixed, then we cannot choose differently that what is fixed.
Tom: I wouldn’t use the word “cannot”, instead I would say “will not”. In other words, since the future is fixed, like a rerun, we will not choose differently than what is fixed.
MM: What we're really talking about here is compatibilistic freedom vs. imcompatibilistism. You are expressing the deterministic viewpoint, which is the viewpoint that Calvinists hold. Adventists have traditionally been imcompatibilistic. All of the Adventists of the 19th century were imcompatibilistic. Since the 1950's some deterministic ideas have crept into SDAism.
If you're unfamiliar with the term "incompatibilism," the following website discusses it in detail:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/incompatibilism-arguments/Basically "incompatibilism" means the belief that God's determining the future is incompatible with freedom. The arguments I've been using are the classic imcompatibilistic arguments, which are discussed more formally in the website I referred to.
Old Tom: So the future really is fixed, and we only have the *perception* (and a wrong one at that) that we can do something to alter it.
MM: Since we do not know the future we cannot alter it.
Tom: This is groundless. Our knowledge of the future has absolutely nothing to do with our ability to alter it. Nothing.
MM: All we can do is what we choose to do. And God has known from eternity, like reading a history book, exactly what we will choose to do.
Tom: Then all of our future choices are fixed, just like all of our past one ours. Since our choices are fixed, our freedom is only perceptional. We do not really have more than one option for anything we do. It must be in accordance with what is already fixed.
MM: You and I both agree if God knows the future like He knows the past, like reading a history book, then everything I’m saying about the future and our freedom to choose is true.
Tom: What you're saying about the future would be true, but what you're saying about our freedom of choice would be false. White is white, not black. If the future is fixed, then our choices are determined before we act. Thus we cannot be the ones determining them.
MM: It’s just that I believe it and you do not. Or, did I misunderstand you?
Tom: I'm holding to a position which is not logically impossible.
MM: Since I believe God has already watched history play out, from the end of time looking backwards to the beginning of time, He knows everything that will happen, before it happens, like watching a rerun. Do you agree? If not, then this would account for our inability to agree on God's role during the great controversy, and His right and ability to control and manage the outcome.
Tom: I do not believe in determinism, which is what your position is. I'm an incompatibilist. I believe God has given us the ability to alter the freedom. We really can hasten or delay Christ's coming, for example.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/29/05 12:10 AM
Are you suggesting that God doesn’t know for sure if you will choose to eat pizza tomorrow? I would like to follow up this question with another one, but first I need to know the answer to this one.
quote:
I'm addressing the point that if the future is fixed, then we cannot choose differently that what is fixed.
I wouldn’t use the word “cannot”, instead I would say “will not”. In other words, since the future is fixed, like a rerun, we will not choose differently than what is fixed. It’s not that we are incapable of making a choice, like a robot, it’s just that we will not exercise our power and freedom to choose differently than the way God saw it unfold from eternity.
The fact is, we do not know what God knows, thus His knowledge does not affect the outcome of our choice. Whatever we end up choosing to do, though, will agree perfectly with divine hindsight. Divine hindsight, however, does not dictate which choices we make. Not at all. It merely reflects the choices we will make, like watching a rerun, or reading a history book.
quote:
What you're saying about the future would be true, but what you're saying about our freedom of choice would be false.
We both agree that if we possessed the power to see the beginning of time by looking at it from the end of time, like reading a history book, our knowledge of the future would not prevent people from exercising their power and freedom to choose. Or, did I misunderstand your position? I am saying divine hindsight has the same impact on the future that a history book has on the past.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/29/05 02:51 AM
MM: Are you suggesting that God doesn’t know for sure if you will choose to eat pizza tomorrow? I would like to follow up this question with another one, but first I need to know the answer to this one.
Tom: God knows for sure that I may or may not eat pizza tomorrow. I am free to do either. He created me with the ability to determine my own future. Until I determine it, it is not determined; therefore God cannot know it as such.
Your position is not logically possible. It is not possible for God to know something from all eternity and for that thing not to happen. Therefore the thing must happen, and I cannot choose something contrary to that.
Old Tom: I'm addressing the point that if the future is fixed, then we cannot choose differently that what is fixed.
MM: I wouldn’t use the word “cannot”, instead I would say “will not”. In other words, since the future is fixed, like a rerun, we will not choose differently than what is fixed. It’s not that we are incapable of making a choice, like a robot, it’s just that we will not exercise our power and freedom to choose differently than the way God saw it unfold from eternity.
Tom: As I pointed out, the lack of ability to do something different is not on the basis of force or power, but by logical necessity. It's not logically possible for us to do anything different than what the future holds, if the future is fixed. We only perceive that we can do something different.
If we will not do anything different that what we will do, then in what sence can we do something different?
MM: The fact is, we do not know what God knows, thus His knowledge does not affect the outcome of our choice. Whatever we end up choosing to do, though, will agree perfectly with divine hindsight.
Tom: But we're not really choosing, are we? This is the point. We only *think* we are choosing. Choosing means the ability to do this or that, to eat pizza or not eat pizza. But if God has known from all eternity that I will eat pizza, how can I possibly not eat it? What choice do I have?
By the way, you probably aren't aware of this, but your position followed to its logical conclusion leads to predestination and Calvinism.
MM: Divine hindsight, however, does not dictate which choices we make. Not at all. It merely reflects the choices we will make, like watching a rerun, or reading a history book.
Tom: God can only watch the future as if it were a rerun if the future is really like a rerun. It must be in its character like the past in order to be seen like the past. God cannot see the future in a different way than it actually is.
Now if the future really is like the past, then we are no more free to make changes that would alter it than we are to make changes that would alter the past. We have the perception of freedom, but not the reality. To really possess freedom, we must be able to alter the future.
Old Tom: What you're saying about the future would be true, but what you're saying about our freedom of choice would be false.
MM: We both agree that if we possessed the power to see the beginning of time by looking at it from the end of time, like reading a history book, our knowledge of the future would not prevent people from exercising their power and freedom to choose.
Tom: If we could see the future as if it were like the past, that would mean it was like the past, and the people we were viewing would not have the actual ability to make choices, but only the perceived ability. They couldn't actually do anything different than what we saw they would do.
MM: Or, did I misunderstand your position? I am saying divine hindsight has the same impact on the future that a history book has on the past.
Tom: If this were true, then the future would be like the past. We can only read a history book about the past because the nature of the past is such that only one thing actually happened. If only one thing can happen in the future, then we could see it, and read it like a history book.
However, if the future is not like the past, then no matter how much ability God gave us to look into it, we could not see it as if it were the past.
It's like you can't see that 2+2 is 5 because it's not 5. Even if we had perfect knowledge and vision, 2+2 still wouldn't be 5. If the future is not fixed, then perfect knowledge and vision won't fix it, nor make it appear to be fixed. Perfect knowledge and vision would reflect what it is really like, not simplify it into something which it is not.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/29/05 02:57 AM
I'm going to repost the argument I made from a previous post:
quote:
Here's the argument laid out more formally:
1)God has known from all eternity that I will have pizza tomorrow for lunch.
2)Therefore I will have pizza for lunch tomorrow.
It should be made clear that 1) does not cause 2) from a sense of force, but from a sense of logic. God is not forcing me to have pizza for lunch tomorrow, but it is a logical consequence of step 1) that I will have pizza for lunch tomorrow.
Now let's consider the contrapositive. Remember that if an argument is valid, the fact that A implies B means that ~A impies ~B (i.e., the converse of A implies the converse of B). So we assume I do not have pizza for lunch tomorrow we have:
~2) I do not have pizza for lunch tomorrow.
~1) God has not known for all eternity that I will have pizza tomorrow.
But we started out assuming that 1) was true, therefore ~2 is not possible. Hence it is not possible for me to have pizza tomorrow. Hence, I do not have the freedom of choosing not to eat pizza tomorrow. I only have the perception of being able to make a choice other than pizza, not the actual ability to choose other than pizza.
I hope this is clear!
Did you follow this argument? Especially the contrapostive part?
Do you see from this that it is not possible for me to have pizza tomorrow, given the assumption that God has known from all eternity that I would have pizza?
Now I wish to reemphasize that it is not merely that I will not have pizza tomorrow, but that it is impossible for me to have pizza tommorow; having pizza tomorrow is not something that it is in my power to do; I can't do it.
The reason I cannot is logical, not causual. It is not that God's foreknowledge of my eating pizza makes me not eat pizza. That's not the point. The point is that logically if I could eat pizza then the contrapositive would mean that God has not seen from all eternity that I would eat pizza. It's a logical impossibility, not a volitional or physical impossibility.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/30/05 06:40 AM
quote:
God knows for sure that I may or may not eat pizza tomorrow. I am free to do either. He created me with the ability to determine my own future. Until I determine it, it is not determined; therefore God cannot know it as such.
As such, God’s knowledge of the future is no different than mine or yours. The idea that God's knowledge of the future is no better than mine is, in my opinion, unsettling.
quote:
It is not possible for God to know something from all eternity and for that thing not to happen. Therefore the thing must happen, and I cannot choose something contrary to that.
I agree. With one exception, I wouldn’t use the word “cannot”, instead, I would use the word “will not”. God’s knowledge of the future merely reflects the choices we will make, like watching a rerun, or reading a history book.
Jesus followed the blueprint of His life, as outlined in prophecy, to the “T”. It was His choice. He chose to live His life that way. But if He had chosen not to follow the prophetic blueprint of His life, then the prophecy would have disqualified Him to be our Saviour. Did Jesus have a choice? Yes, of course. The prophecy merely reflected the choices He ended up making.
We are free to choose this or that thing. The fact God has known our choices from eternity in no way impacts how or why we end up choosing the thing we do. We do what we do. Period. The only time God’s knowledge of the future can affect us personally is when He decides to tell us in advance what we’re going to do. Which, by the way, He rarely, if ever, does. So, for all intents and purposes, in practical terms, God’s knowledge of the future has no bearing on our choices. We live our lives as free moral agents, choosing this or that thing, without any interference (usually).
I am not comfortable with the idea (I’m not necessarily referring to the idea you are espousing) that God does not know exactly what is going to happen in the future. The only way God can foretell the future, as in prophecy, is if He knows what is going to happen before it happens. And the only way God can know is if He has already seen it play out like a rerun – unless you can explain it otherwise, which you have yet to do.
I realize you are not comfortable with the idea that God knows the future like a rerun, and, at this point, I think it is pretty clear that neither one of us is going to change our mind. You are convinced I am dead wrong. You probably even feel sorry for me. But alas, I am what I am. Which, by the way, I feel totally and completely free to believe as I choose.
Do you really believe God has no idea if you will eat pizza tomorrow? I couldn’t live my life that way. I would be a miserable wreck if I didn’t believe God is all knowing, if I believed He was just winging it (not that that's what you're saying, though it sounds like it to me). I am so glad that I believe God knows everything, that He is in control of the outcome of the great controversy, that nobody can do anything to derail His plan to win.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/30/05 06:57 AM
MM: I don't see how you have addressed the argument in any way. Please do so.
For your convenience, I'm reposting it:
quote:
Here's the argument laid out more formally:
1)God has known from all eternity that I will have pizza tomorrow for lunch.
2)Therefore I will have pizza for lunch tomorrow.
It should be made clear that 1) does not cause 2) from a sense of force, but from a sense of logic. God is not forcing me to have pizza for lunch tomorrow, but it is a logical consequence of step 1) that I will have pizza for lunch tomorrow.
Now let's consider the contrapositive. Remember that if an argument is valid, the fact that A implies B means that ~A impies ~B (i.e., the converse of A implies the converse of B). So we assume I do not have pizza for lunch tomorrow we have:
~2) I do not have pizza for lunch tomorrow.
~1) God has not known for all eternity that I will have pizza tomorrow.
But we started out assuming that 1) was true, therefore ~2 is not possible. Hence it is not possible for me to have pizza tomorrow. Hence, I do not have the freedom of choosing not to eat pizza tomorrow. I only have the perception of being able to make a choice other than pizza, not the actual ability to choose other than pizza.
If the argument is invalid (specifically the part in bold) then either one of my premises is false, or some construct of the argument is invalid. Since you disagree with the conclusion, of these things must hold for your disagreement to be reasonable (i.e. either a premise of mine is faulty, or some point I'm reasoning is valid, meaning that something I have concluded does not really follow from a premise).
So please point out explicitly what premised you disagree with, or what reasoning you do not think is valid and why.
Thank you.
(If you still wish me to, after responding to this, I will be happy to respond to your previous post)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/29/05 09:47 PM
quote:
But we started out assuming that 1) was true, therefore ~2 is not possible. Hence it is not possible for me to have pizza tomorrow. Hence, I do not have the freedom of choosing not to eat pizza tomorrow. I only have the perception of being able to make a choice other than pizza, not the actual ability to choose other than pizza.
Is there a word missing in this sentence? Shouldn't it read, Hence it is not possible for me not to have pizza tomorrow. Also, I would reword "not the actual ability to choose other than pizza" to say - we will not choose other than pizza.
At any rate, I agree with the first formula. But the second formula does not make sense to me. If we assume God does not know the future then a formula wouldn’t be necessary. We wouldn’t have to conclude, based on what we choose to do, that God doesn’t know the future. It wouldn’t even occur to us to surmise such a thing. Trying to reverse the first formula to end up with a contradictory second formula makes no sense to me.
quote:
(If you still wish me to, after responding to this, I will be happy to respond to your previous post)
Please do.
PS - I'll be away for the next several days. Happy Sabbath.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 07/30/05 08:16 AM
Thank you for the Happy Sabbath wish.
Here's one explanation of how God can know the future. Everything that happens can be reduced to the movmements of particles (such as atoms, molecules, and so on). God knows all of the possible paths all the unnumbered particles can take, and can see these results perfectly, because He is infinitely intelligent. So God can see the future perfectly without any need of it being in nature like a T.V. rerun.
Regarding the argument, here it is again:
1) Assume God has known somthing, an event, which we will call E1, will occur at time T for all eternity.
2) It follows that at time T, E1 must occur.
Now assume that E1 doesn't occur. Then, by the fact that if A=>B then ~B=>~A, it would follow that God has not known that thing for all eternity. So ~E1 is not possible.
In terms of pizza, if God has known from all eternity that I will have pizza at some time T, then it is not possible that at that time T I will not have pizza. That is, it is not possible for me to choose to have pizza at time T, because I cannot have pizza at time T, because such an act would mean that God did not know from all eternity that I would eat pizza at time T.
In order for me to have free will, it must be possible for me at time T to either eat the pizza or not eat the pizza. However, I have shown that it is not possible for me to not eat the pizza. Therefore I do not have free will to eat the pizza or not eat the pizza at time T. I may think I do, but I really don't. It's not simply that I won't refrain from eating the pizza at time T, but I cannot. It's not a logical possibility. It's as impossibile for me not to eat that pizza at time T as it is for me to fly to the moon.
I hope that was clear.
By the way, you cannot accept the formulation of a valid argument of the type A=>B and not accept ~B=>~A following the normal formal laws of logic. For example, if it is raining, then it is cloudy is an argument of the form A=>B. The contrapositive would be, if it's not cloudy, then it must not be raining. If you accept the argument that if it's raining, it must be cloudy, then the argument if it's not cloudy, it must not be raining follows.
Similarly, if you accept the argument, if God has known something will happen for all eternity, then that thing will happen, the argument if the thing does not happen, then God did not know from all eternity that the thing would happen follows. If we say it is impossible for God know to know the thing would happen from all eternity, then it is equally impossible for the thing not to happen. If that thing is my eathing pizza, for example, then it is impossible for me not to eat pizza. If I cannot actually not eat the pizza, then I cannot choose not to eat the pizza, because I cannot refrain from eathing the pizza without choosing not to eat it. Therefore I cannot choose not to eat the pizza. Therefor I do not have free choice, as far as my not eathing the pizza is concerned.
Now this same argument can be repeated for any act of my life, so it follows that I do not have the free will to choose to do anything contrary to what God has known from all eternity I would do. Given that God known everything I will do, I do not have free will regarding anything I do. I am not really free, but merely have a false impression that I do.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/03/05 07:01 PM
Tom, you have made it clear that God does not know the future, that He only knows all the possibilities, that if He knew the future it would make us robots, devoid of freedom. However, are we any more or less free if our choices are limited to the possibilities God is aware of?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/03/05 09:11 PM
MM, I have NEVER said that God does not know the future, so please quit writing that!! If you read over what I've written, I have stated dozens of times that God knows the future perfectly. Why don't you write that. E.g.
"Tom, you have made it clear that you believe that God knows the future perfectly." Why would you write I have made something "clear" which I have expressly and repeatedly denied?
If we are free to do anything which is possible for us to do, but not free to do things which are impossible for us to do, then we are as free as it is possible for us to be. That makes sense, doesn't it?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/03/05 09:24 PM
quote:
... that He only knows all the possibilities, that if He knew [our] future [choices] it would make us robots, devoid of freedom. However, are we any more or less free if our choices are limited to the possibilities God is aware of?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/04/05 01:04 AM
That's a strange way to write a post. It took me a while to figure out what you were doing. At first I thought you were quoting me, and then I saw you were quoting yourself. Apparently the point of the post is the part in bold, to re-ask the question. I addressed that question in the last paragraph of my previous post.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/04/05 02:35 AM
quote:
If we are free to do anything which is possible for us to do, but not free to do things which are impossible for us to do, then we are as free as it is possible for us to be. That makes sense, doesn't it?
Yes. And the fact God knows in advance exactly which choices we will make does not, in any way, rob us of our freedom to choose. But, if you maintain that God only knows which choices we are capable of making, how, then, is your view less limiting than mine? How can God enjoy not knowing what we will do? Are we capable of making choices that God has not foreseen?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/04/05 07:29 PM
MM: Yes. And the fact God knows in advance exactly which choices we will make does not, in any way, rob us of our freedom to choose.
Tom: So what? This isn't the issue under discussion, as I've pointed out many, many, many times. I have never asserted this point, but have pointed out many, many, many times that the problem is a logical problem, not an issue of God's foreknowledge causing anything. The logical problem has to do with the future's being fixed.
MM: But, if you maintain that God only knows which choices we are capable of making, how, then, is your view less limiting than mine?
Tom: Because you believe the future is fixed, which means we can only make one choice. I believe we can make more than one choice. That's how your view is more restrictive then mine; because "more than one" is greater than one.
MM: How can God enjoy not knowing what we will do?
Tom: Why would God enjoy a creation which was spontaneous and not robot-like? Because God likes freedom and spontaneaity.
MM: Are we capable of making choices that God has not foreseen?
Tom: God sees everything, so we'd have to be able to do something which does not exist a possibility, which would be difficult.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/04/05 08:00 PM
quote:
God sees everything, so we'd have to be able to do something which does not exist a possibility, which would be difficult.
Tom, like it or not, your view of the future is no different than mine, at least in principle. You believe it would be "difficult" for us to make choices that God hasn't foreseen, which strongly implies our choices are limited to God's knowledge of the future. To use your logic, we are not truly free, we only think we are free. To be truly free, according to your opinion, our future choices must completely open, totally unforeseen. There should be nothing "difficult" about it.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/04/05 09:22 PM
Old Tom: God sees everything, so we'd have to be able to do something which does not exist a possibility, which would be difficult.
MM: Tom, like it or not, your view of the future is no different than mine, at least in principle.
Tom: You believe the future is fixed. I believe it isn't. You can't get much more different, in principle, than this.
MM: You believe it would be "difficult" for us to make choices that God hasn't foreseen, which strongly implies our choices are limited to God's knowledge of the future.
Tom: Since God sees everything, our choices are limited to everything. That is, we can only choose to do something which is possible for us to do. This is what I wrote before.
MM:To use your logic, we are not truly free, we only think we are free. To be truly free, according to your opinion, our future choices must completely open, totally unforeseen. There should be nothing "difficult" about it.
Tom: What I have written is that if the future is fixed, we are not free. I have not written that we aren't free based on foreknoweldge; this is what you have said. When addressing what I have written, it would be good if you stuck to what I have written. Our choices being foreseen do not impact whether they are free or not.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/05/05 06:24 AM
quote:
God sees everything, so we'd have to be able to do something which does not exist [as] a possibility, which would be difficult…. Our choices being foreseen do not impact whether they are free or not.
What do you mean by difficult? What do you mean by they?
How far in advance does God foresee our choices? One year, two years, our entire lifetime? Does He know all the different scenarios for each and every possibility? and how each one impacts everyone else in the world? and the outcome of the great controversy? Do any of the possible outcomes include God losing the great controversy?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/05/05 08:50 PM
Old Tom: God sees everything, so we'd have to be able to do something which does not exist [as] a possibility, which would be difficult…. Our choices being foreseen do not impact whether they are free or not.
MM: What do you mean by difficult? What do you mean by they?
Tom: Sorry, I was being sarcastic. By "difficult" I meant "impossible". Clearly given that God sees everything, it is not possible to do something God has not foreseen. "They" mean people in general.
MM: How far in advance does God foresee our choices? One year, two years, our entire lifetime? Does He know all the different scenarios for each and every possibility? and how each one impacts everyone else in the world? and the outcome of the great controversy? Do any of the possible outcomes include God losing the great controversy?
Tom: Yes, to all questions, except the last one quit being yes after the cross.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/06/05 06:26 AM
Thank you answering my questions. But, how can you be so sure God knows He will win the great controversy?
Posted By: Garywk
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/07/05 10:07 AM
I'd like to insert something here if I could.
Very early in this thread Mountain Man said this:
quote:
Our Godhead is orchestrating the great controversy in such a way that the outcome vindicates Their kingdom and character, thus restoring law and order and peace.
I'd like to focus on the usage of the word, orchestrating. To orchestrate, in the way the word is used here, means to arrange or combine so as to achieve a desired or maximum effect, or in other words, manipulate events to a desired outcome. Now, I know people who orchestrate events, but I've never met a good person who has had to orchestrate events to vindicate their own good character. I have, however, met a lot of people who have to orchestrate things to make themselves look good. These people are reduced to such things because the truth does not show them to be decent people.
Orchestrating events to vindicate themselves is something very selfish people do. Is God selfish? Do we really want to charge God with such behavior?
If God truly is loving, just, kind, compassionate, etc... then truth alone is enough to vindicate Him. And, if He is truly to be trusted that's the only thing that can vindicate Him. Manipulation of events to make Himself look good only makes people look upon Him with suspicion and makes Him seem untrustworthy, and selfish.
Ask yourself this Mountain Man: Do I really want to live forever with a god who manipulates and orchestrates events to make himself look good? Can such a person really be trusted? How would I ever know what he's really like? Do I really trust people who manipulate others?
We all act out what lies in our characters. It's from our characters that all our actions flow. If the Great Controversy truly is all about the character of God, then He cannot be orchestrating events to vindicate Himself. In so doing He would be in violation of His own character, and that is one thing that is impossible.
An honest person is honest because of what he is inside. A theif and a liar is that way because of what they are inside. A manipulator manipulates because of what is inside them, selfishness and insecurity. God is no different. He acts the way He does because of what's inside. If He is manipulating events to make Himself look good, there's something wrong inside. I for one wouldn't want to be one who would charge God with such a thing.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/07/05 08:10 PM
Gary, I agree with you that the word "manipulate" does not describe the character of God. That's why I used the word orchestrate, instead. God demonstrated His control when He used water to purify the earth of the antediluvians. Had He allowed nature to run its course the entire world would have been engulfed in sin. Only eight souls remained faithful to God. Had He delayed destroying the earth until after Noah passed away the earth would have been devoid of saints, and God would have lost the great controversy.
The same is true at the end of time. If God should delay the coming of Christ until after the the 144,000 passed away there would be no one left to save. That's why God says, "For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha." (Rom 9:28, 29)
Concerning the end of time, Jesus asked the question, "When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8) And for good reason, because He also said, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (Mat 24:24)
Again, Jesus must cut things short or there would be no one left to save, and He would lose the great controversy. Regarding the Dark Ages, Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." (Mat 24:22) The same thing applies to the end of time.
God has been orchestrating the great controversy from the very beginning of time. Indeed, if He hadn't been orhestrating things to His advantage and to the advantage of men and angels, He would have ere this lost the great controversy. But God will not be defeated by Satan, and that's why He commissions holy angels to keep the evil angels in line, to keep them from passing the boundaries that God has established. Truly, God is in control.
OHC 252
God will not again bring from the heavens above and the earth beneath waters as His weapons to use in the destruction of the world; but when next His vengeance shall be poured out against those who despise His authority, they will be destroyed by fire concealed in the bowels of the earth, awakened into intense activity by fires from heaven above. {OHC 252.4}
DA 630, 631
From the destruction of Jerusalem, Christ passed on rapidly to the greater event, the last link in the chain of this earth's history,--the coming of the Son of God in majesty and glory. Between these two events, there lay open to Christ's view long centuries of darkness, centuries for His church marked with blood and tears and agony. Upon these scenes His disciples could not then endure to look, and Jesus passed them by with a brief mention. "Then shall be great tribulation," He said, "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." For more than a thousand years such persecution as the world had never before known was to come upon Christ's followers. Millions upon millions of His faithful witnesses were to be slain. Had not God's hand been stretched out to preserve His people, all would have perished. "But for the elect's sake," He said, "those days shall be shortened." {DA 630.5}
GC 266, 267
The persecution of the church did not continue throughout the entire period of the 1260 years. God in mercy to His people cut short the time of their fiery trial. In foretelling the "great tribulation" to befall the church, the Saviour said: "Except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matthew 24:22. Through the influence of the Reformation the persecution was brought to an end prior to 1798. {GC 266.4}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/07/05 09:00 PM
Again, please notice how intimately God is involved in the affairs of men and angels. God leaves nothing to chance or chaos.
quote:
As the wheel-like complications were under the guidance of the hand beneath the wings of the cherubim, so the complicated play of human events is under divine control. Amidst the strife and tumult of nations, He that sitteth above the cherubim still guides the affairs of this earth.--PK 535, 536.
Providence, though unseen, is ever at work in the affairs of men. God's hand can prosper or withhold, and He frequently withholds from one while He seems to prosper another. All this is to test and prove man to reveal the heart. {RC 270.3}
God and Christ and the heavenly angels are working with intense activity to hold in check the fierceness of Satan's wrath, that God's plans may not be thwarted. God lives and reigns. He is conducting the affairs of the universe. {7T 14.1}
These predictions of the Infinite One, recorded on the prophetic page and traced on the pages of history, were given to demonstrate that God is the ruling power in the affairs of this world. He changes the times and the seasons, He removes kings and sets up kings, to fulfill His own purpose. {1MR 49.2}
Satan himself is the enemy who tempts man to sin, and then destroys him if he can; and when he has made sure of his victim, then he exults in the ruin he has wrought. If permitted, he would sweep the entire race into his net. Were it not for the interposition of divine power, not one son or daughter of Adam would escape. {GC 534.2}
A special, irresistible interference from heaven had arrested their rebellion. Now, if they would respond to the interposition of God's providence, they might be saved. {PP 401.3}
The Lord has wrought for His servants and for the upbuilding of His cause at the present day as verily as He wrought in behalf of ancient Israel; but vain philosophy, "science falsely so called," has sought to destroy faith in the direct interposition of Providence, attributing all such manifestations to natural causes. This is the sophistry of Satan. He is asserting his authority by mighty signs and wonders in the earth. Those who ignore or deny the special evidences of God's power, are preparing the way for the arch-deceiver to exalt himself before the people as superior to the God of Israel. {2BC 1011.5}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/08/05 12:26 AM
quote:
Thank you answering my questions. But, how can you be so sure God knows He will win the great controversy?
The answer to this question is given in "It Is Finished" from the Desire of Ages. I'll quote a bit from it:
quote:
It was God's purpose to place things on an eternal basis of security, and in the councils of heaven it was decided that time must be given for Satan to develop the principles which were the foundation of his system of government. He had claimed that these were superior to God's principles. Time was given for the working of Satan's principles, that they might be seen by the heavenly universe....
Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/08/05 12:30 AM
quote:
Now, I know people who orchestrate events, but I've never met a good person who has had to orchestrate events to vindicate their own good character...
If God truly is loving, just, kind, compassionate, etc... then truth alone is enough to vindicate Him.
Great insights!
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/08/05 02:30 AM
Tom, you stopped short of the following paragraph:
quote:
Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}
Since winning the great controversy depends on mankind choosing to do something, and if God does not know exactly what we will choose to do before we do it, how can you be sure man will act his part and that God will win the great controversy?
And one other thing, do you believe God is conducting the affairs of the universe, that He interferes and interposes to prevent Satan from thwarting His plan to win the great controversy?
Posted By: Garywk
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/08/05 04:21 AM
The D of A quotes given show my point explicitly. It is in the revelation of character through the process of time and events that vindicates God. He doesn't have to "orchestrate" events to vindicate Himself. Truth exposes error. It's as simple as that. Nothing needs be orchestrated for truth to show that truth is right and error is wrong. All that needs happen is time, and the outcome is a forgone conclusion. God won the war by simply letting Lucifer show himself for who he is.
Is God active in the affairs of men? Of course He is, but that is for man's own good, not for His own vindication. Just as Satan exposed himself once and for all at the cross, God was vindicated at the cross. He didn't have to orchestrate anything. All He had to do was let Lucifer be himself. God didn't have to do anything but be Himself for Lucifer to expose himself.
Lucifer's hatred was so deep that all that had to happen was for Christ to come here and live, and the nature of the two adversaries would be exposed. You can't juxtapose hate and love and not see the difference. Hate will attack and try to kill love. It's the nature of the beast. No events need to be orchestrated for this to happen. It will happen just as surely as day follows night because evil cannot stand the presence of goodness.
This is shown in the history of the church too. When love for God grows dim the church is never persecuted. However, let the church really love God and be on fire for Him and persecution follows immediately. Why? Because evil hates good and will attack it.
As to all the quotes you gave in which you see God "orchestrating" events and people, I see God reacting to events and people's choices to help them see truth. I don't see it as "orchestrating events" at all. We are born without the ability to recognize God, and if God is to be just, He must give us the opportunity to see exactly who He is. It's for this reason that God intervenes. It's not to justify Himself, it's to save mankind.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/08/05 04:56 AM
Gary, I agree with you that Satan's own actions undermined his claim that we can experience peace and happiness apart from obeying God's law. But just because Satan cannot prove it doesn't mean it isn't so. He is, after all, only a created being.
When Jesus became sin for us and laid down His life on the cross He accomplished what the Devil couldn't on his own, that is, Jesus proved beyond all doubt it is impossible to have sin and experience perfect peace. I'm not suggesting He sinned, but rather by becoming sin for us He demonstrated the ultimate results of sin.
I noticed you didn't specifically address the insight presented in the following quote, originally posted above:
quote:
God and Christ and the heavenly angels are working with intense activity to hold in check the fierceness of Satan's wrath, that God's plans may not be thwarted. God lives and reigns. He is conducting the affairs of the universe. {7T 14.1}
Why does God have to work so hard to prevent Satan from derailing His plans if, as you seem to believe, God doesn't have to do anything special to prevent the Devil from derailing His plans?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/08/05 06:55 AM
MM, it appears plain to me that you are either intentionally twisting Gary's words or not paying attention to what he is saying. He is not saying that God doesn't take action to prevent Satan from doing anything he wants to. He argued against your way of putting things, which would have God orchestrating events in order to make Him look good. Gary's point was that God does not need to do this, because the truth itself will make evident God's true character. He never said or in any way implied that God does not act to thwart Satan's plans. In fact, the whole ministry of Christ was all about thwarting Satan's plans. If God did not act to thwart Satan's plans, then Christ would never have come, and the human race would have entirely perished.
Regarding your question to me as to how God can know that He will win the Great Controversy, and that man will do His part, I would say it is because God knows all things. I have never claimed there are things God does not know. At least not anything knowable. If God says He will win the Great Controversy without qualification, then it must be something knowable. This is in contrast to Christ's ministry being successful, which is something which God did qualify (Christ came at the risk of failure and eternal loss). God has not said there is a risk Christ might not come again, or that He won't win the Great Controversy (since Christ's victory at the cross).
Posted By: Garywk
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/08/05 07:24 AM
quote:
God and Christ and the heavenly angels are working with intense activity to hold in check the fierceness of Satan's wrath, that God's plans may not be thwarted. God lives and reigns. He is conducting the affairs of the universe.
First, I must agree with Tom. It seems you are either deliberately ignoring what I've said, or just aren't even paying any attention to it all.
Second, why do God and His angels work to hold in check Satan's wrath? For God's personal gain? That seems to be your conclusion, for the basis of your entire argument so far is that God has entered into the Great Controversy for His own good, rather than for the good of His creation. At least it seems that way to me.
I have a couple of questions for you to answer.
1. Is God pure unselfishness? IOW's, is God altruistic, or is He concerned about His own welfare?
2. If God isn't altruistic and does things for His own gain, why does He care what His creation thinks about Him? So they will bow down and worship Him?
Posted By: Garywk
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/08/05 07:39 AM
quote:
Since winning the great controversy depends on mankind choosing to do something, and if God does not know exactly what we will choose to do before we do it, how can you be sure man will act his part and that God will win the great controversy?
First, the Great Controversy has already been won. Satan unmasked himself. In doing that he lost the war for the truth about God became knowable for all.
Second. love is the most powerful motivator in the universe. That's what God used to win the Great Controversy.
Third, you made the point for us that we've been trying to show you. You provided the exact quote that said Satan beat himself. He unmasked his own character by his own actions and in so doing made his lies very apparent.
What did God do to "orchestrate" that? He sent His son to die for us. He expressed the love that lives and breathes in His very being. That was the sum of His "orchestration". Satan responded with what was in his own heart. God didn't make him do it. God didn't "orchestrate" his reaction to Jesus coming here. He simply allowed Satan to do what comes naturally to him.
What was God's motive in coming here as a man? To make Himself look good, or to save mankind? I'll be very interested in seeing your answer.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/08/05 07:45 PM
quote:
He never said or in any way implied that God does not act to thwart Satan's plans.
And neither did I, instead I quoted Sister White who wrote, “God and Christ and the heavenly angels are working with intense activity to hold in check the fierceness of Satan's wrath, that God's plans may not be thwarted.” God acts to prevent Satan from thwarting His plans, not the other way around, that is, God isn’t acting to thwart Satan’s plans.
The difference is significant. God is doing everything necessary to prevent Satan from thwarting His plan to win the great controversy, which means He is orchestrating the outcome of the great controversy. In other words, if God doesn't actively and agressively fight to restrain Satan then He runs the risk of losing the great controversy.
quote:
I have never claimed there are things God does not know. At least not anything knowable. If God says He will win the Great Controversy without qualification, then it must be something knowable.
But if knowing the future outcome of the great controversy depends on knowing what we will choose to do, before we choose to do it, how can God, in light of your understanding of His knowledge of our future choices, know for sure we will act our part and that He will, consequently, win the great controversy?
I'm curious, if not dumbfounded (are you tempted to play with that word?), according to you theory, can God limit Himself as to what He knows about the future choices of FMAs? You said God didn't know if Jesus would choose to succeed on the cross, but then you said God does know we will choose to act our part in such a way that He will ultimately win the great controversy.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/08/05 08:04 PM
quote:
... God has entered into the Great Controversy for His own good, rather than for the good of His creation.
Whatever is good for God is good for us, right? But to answer your questions, no, I do not believe God is only worried about His own reputation. He is completely unselfish, and self-sacrificing. But He is also completely jealous for the outcome of the great controversy, and He absolutely will not let Satan do anything that will thwart His plans to win. And Satan is well able to do it, but God will not allow it to happen.
quote:
First, the Great Controversy has already been won.
Why, then, are we still here? Why didn’t it end at the cross?
quote:
What was God's motive in coming here as a man? To make Himself look good, or to save mankind? I'll be very interested in seeing your answer.
Both. He came to demonstrate His goodness, and to save us. And, He has been in control of the great controversy since its inception. He has a specific plan to win, and He is not going to let anyone or anything stop Him from winning.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/08/05 11:09 PM
MM: In other words, if God doesn't actively and agressively fight to restrain Satan then He runs the risk of losing the great controversy.
Tom: Which is exactly what Gary said. God wins the Great Controversy by revealing truth.
Old Tom: I have never claimed there are things God does not know. At least not anything knowable. If God says He will win the Great Controversy without qualification, then it must be something knowable.
MM: But if knowing the future outcome of the great controversy depends on knowing what we will choose to do, before we choose to do it, how can God, in light of your understanding of His knowledge of our future choices, know for sure we will act our part and that He will, consequently, win the great controversy?
Tom: Because He knows everything.
MM: I'm curious, if not dumbfounded (are you tempted to play with that word?), according to you theory, can God limit Himself as to what He knows about the future choices of FMAs?
Tom: No, He doesn't limit Himself. He knows all the choices FMA's can make.
MM: You said God didn't know if Jesus would choose to succeed on the cross,
Tom: I didn't say that. Correct? You said I said that, but I didn't say that.
MM: but then you said God does know we will choose to act our part in such a way that He will ultimately win the great controversy.
Tom: God has told us He will win, so He must know He will win. We can delay Christ's coming, which we have, but it seems He will without doubt come again. Eventually God will have a people who respond to Him, who follow the lamb whereever He goes.
Posted By: Garywk
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/09/05 12:35 AM
quote:
Why, then, are we still here? Why didn’t it end at the cross?
So, you don't actually believe that the devil unmasking himself guaranteed his defeat? He has never had more than one weapon to use that could possibly defeat God. That weapon was his deceit about who really loved God's creation--God or him--and when he committed murder at the cross that once and for all time exposed his lies to the light of day. There is no way he can now win, for the entire universe, except for his followers here on earth, now see him for exactly what he is. What chance does he have? He's lost any chance of causing disaffection in the rest of the universe? The war is won. Don't you read the SOP? ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif)
Do you actually believe he can overpower God? That's the only route left open to him. Truth defeated his only real weapon at the cross. He has nothing left with which to defeat God. He's just too full of hatred to give up even though he knows he's lost.
You had an interesting answer to my question. Somehow you see saving mankind and vindicating God's character as separate events. Why? Coming to save mankind vindicated God! He vindicated His character by simply showing who He is in juxtaposition to the devil's character, and the cross expressed that perfectly. It showed precisely who was was telling the truth.
What could vindicate God's character more than to come for no other reason than to save mankind? His altruism is the very best argument there is to vindicate Him. I'll be very interested to see your response.
I think I know why you're taking the position you're taking. It has to do with man reflecting God's character if you're who I think you are. However, this I see as a battle still to be won, not the war. Why? Because it is part and parcel of saving mankind from sin and the devil. Giving man the victory over sin isn't separate from saving him. Thus I don't see it as a separate item/goal.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/09/05 01:08 AM
quote:
Coming to save mankind vindicated God! He vindicated His character by simply showing who He is in juxtaposition to the devil's character, and the cross expressed that perfectly. It showed precisely who was was telling the truth.
Yes! This goes along with what Paul wrote in Romans 3.
quote:
3 But what if some of them were not faithful? Does this mean that God will not be faithful? 4 Certainly not! God must be true, even though all human beings are liars. As the scripture says, "You must be shown to be right when you speak; you must win your case when you are being tried." (GNB)
and then later in vs. 26:
quote:
In this way God shows that He himself is righteous and that He puts right everyone who believes in Jesus.
In setting us right with Himself, God has demonstrated His own righteousness. He killed two birds with one stone, so to speak. He both solved the problem of man (man could only be reconciled to God by seeing the truth about Him) and of the universe, by revealing the same truth. Through the blood of His cross, God accomplished the reconciliation of beings on earth, and unfallen beings (Col 1:20).
quote:
1:20 Through the Son, then, God decided to bring the whole universe back to himself. God made peace through his Son's blood on the cross and so brought back to himself all things, both on earth and in heaven.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/10/05 06:44 AM
quote:
I didn't say that. Correct? You said I said that, but I didn't say that.
Tom, what do you believe? Was God 100% certain, before the fact, that Jesus would succeed on the cross? Or, was He only aware of all the possible choices and outcomes that were available to Jesus on the cross? Did God know in advance that Jesus would be successful on the cross? Did He know, before it happened, that Jesus would be successful on the cross? Was there any doubt or uncertainty in the mind of God, before the fact, as to whether or not Jesus would succeed on the cross? Or, did God know for sure all along that Jesus would be successful on the cross?
I don’t know how else to ask this question in order to get a straight answer from you. It’s been like pulling teeth, and I’m not a dentist, not even a dental technician. So please, help me out here. You keep chastising me for misrepresenting your views, and yet you haven’t made your views clear. What do you expect? I’m not a mind reader. I keep hoping you will answer my questions clearly and concisely, but so far you seem content to keep me in the dark. What’s up with that? Tell me plainly – Did God know in advance, before it happened, before the fact, that Jesus would most certainly be successful on the cross?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/10/05 06:55 AM
Gary, yes, I read the SOP. Thank you for asking. Actually, such comments are unnecessary, if not condescending. So please, stick with the topic and leave off the rude remarks. What you think about me isn't relevant to the topic, is it? And since what you think about me isn't important, and even disruptive, it would be better if you kept your opinions to yourself. Right?
I am willing to respond to your questions, but first I need to know if you're willing to respect my wishes, if you're willing to keep your comments about me to yourself. I await your answer.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/09/05 09:08 PM
MM: Tom, what do you believe? Was God 100% certain, before the fact, that Jesus would succeed on the cross? Or, was He only aware of all the possible choices and outcomes that were available to Jesus on the cross? Did God know in advance that Jesus would be successful on the cross? Did He know, before it happened, that Jesus would be successful on the cross? Was there any doubt or uncertainty in the mind of God, before the fact, as to whether or not Jesus would succeed on the cross? Or, did God know for sure all along that Jesus would be successful on the cross?
I don’t know how else to ask this question in order to get a straight answer from you. It’s been like pulling teeth, and I’m not a dentist, not even a dental technician. So please, help me out here. You keep chastising me for misrepresenting your views, and yet you haven’t made your views clear. What do you expect? I’m not a mind reader. I keep hoping you will answer my questions clearly and concisely, but so far you seem content to keep me in the dark. What’s up with that? Tell me plainly – Did God know in advance, before it happened, before the fact, that Jesus would most certainly be successful on the cross?
Tom: MM, I've written what must be the equivalent of dozens of pages on this subject by now. If you want to express a view of mine, just quote it. If you're unsure of something, just ask, like you're doing here.
The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss; that all heaven was imperiled. "Risk" and "imperiled" mean that the thing was not 100% certain. Obviously. If it was 100% certain, there wouldn't be any risk.
Here's an example. I have a two-headed coin, and I toss it, under "risk" calling it heads. This isn't a real risk, because there's only one possible result. It's only if there is more than one possible result that risk is involved. If it were 100% certain that Christ would succeed, then God risked nothing. That's clear, isn't it?
If not, please try again.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/10/05 01:28 AM
quote:
MM: You said God didn't know if Jesus would choose to succeed on the cross,
Tom: I didn't say that. Correct? You said I said that, but I didn't say that.
Tom: If it were 100% certain that Christ would succeed, then God risked nothing. That's clear, isn't it?
Not really. It sounds like you're saying God didn't know if Jesus would choose to succeed on the cross. So, once again, let me rephrase the question.
Are you saying that God absolutely did not know, before Jesus’ incarnation, that He would successfully fulfill all of the requirements necessary to be our Saviour and to save us? Please, a yes or no answer would suffice. I’m not asking you, this time, what Sister White meant when she used the words risk and eternal lose and imperiled.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/10/05 04:25 AM
quote:
The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss; that all heaven was imperiled. "Risk" and "imperiled" mean that the thing was not 100% certain. Obviously. If it was 100% certain, there wouldn't be any risk.
MM, I asked if this was clear, and you said "not really." What's not clear? It sure seems clear to me. Tell me what's not clear, and I'll try to clarify.
God knows the future as it is, which is not fixed. If all the possibilities lead to a given conclusion, then God can know that the conclusion is true, even though the details may vary. If all possibilities led to Christ succeeding, then God would have seen this, and there would have been no risk. The fact that there was risk implies there were possibilities of failure, and since God knows everything, He must have foreseen that.
I don't see how God could have foreseen that Christ would succeed without any possibility of failure and yet reveal that He sent His Son at a risk. IOW God could not have been 100% certain that Christ would succeed because if He had been He would not have said He sent Christ at the risk of failure and eternal loss.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/11/05 02:18 AM
Tom, you have repeatedly stated that God sees the future as a vast web of options and outcomes, that God doesn’t see the future from hindsight, like a rerun. Therefore, based on this understanding of your view of the future, and I am willing to be corrected if I have misstated your view, at any rate, based on this understanding, would you agree that one of the options and outcomes God foresaw included the one that actually happened?
If so, how could “risk” have been a part of that particular view of the future? Were the various components of the various outcomes exactly the same for each option? In other words, did all the options that God foresaw include "risk"?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/11/05 04:19 AM
MM: Tom, you have repeatedly stated that God sees the future as a vast web of options and outcomes, that God doesn’t see the future from hindsight, like a rerun. Therefore, based on this understanding of your view of the future, and I am willing to be corrected if I have misstated your view, at any rate, based on this understanding, would you agree that one of the options and outcomes God foresaw included the one that actually happened?
Tom: Yes, of course, which is why I haven't said anything like "God had no idea what Christ would do."
MM: If so, how could “risk” have been a part of that particular view of the future?
Tom: Because God foresaw the possibilty of Christ succeeding and of Christ failing -- hence there was risk.
MM: Were the various components of the various outcomes exactly the same for each option? In other words, did all the options that God foresaw include "risk"?
Tom: Say there's two possibilities of some future action, A or B. God foresees both possbilities. There is the possibility of A or B, or equivalently see there is a risk that A may not happen. Now if there were only one possibility, A, then God would foresee that one possibility, and there would be no risk of A not occuring.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/12/05 06:48 AM
Tom, herein lies our differences. I believe God saw what actually did happen, not what could happen.
quote:
If so, how could “risk” have been a part of that particular view of the future?
You didn't answer this questison. So, let me rephrase it. But first, a little insight. Since one of the options that God foresaw included what actually happened on the cross that particular option, therefore, by itself, independent of the other options, did not involve any risk.
But the opposite is true of all the other options, that is, all of them involved certain failure. So, since each of these other options ended in failure there really was no risk involved, there was no hope of success, therefore, there was no doubt concerning the outcome.
Okay, here's my question to you - Which one of the many different options that God foresaw, in and of itself, independent of the other options, involved risk or uncertainty as to its outcome?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/11/05 10:36 PM
Mm: Tom, herein lies our differences. I believe God saw what actually did happen, not what could happen.
Tom: Our differences to not lie in how God views things. We agree on this. Our differences have to do with how you conceptionalize the future. You conceive of the future as being identical to the past. I conceive of it as fundamentally different. Not different because of a lack of foreknowledge on our part, but different because it hasn't happened yet.
Boy I hope this is clear, because this is THE fundamental difference in our views. I'm been trying to communicate this all along. In your view, the past is fundamentally the same as the future. There are some physicists who believe this as well. According to this view, it is only in our perception that the future is different than past. In reality, it is as fixed as the past.
I reject this view. I believe the past is fundamentally different than the future. The different is a real difference, not a perceptional one.
Again, this is THE fundamental point I've been trying to communicate.
I understand your point of view, which is that God perceives the future as if it had already happened. I also understand that you believe this does not cause us to do what He has foreseen. I understand you see no contradiction in these two ideas. I have not been addressing this.
What I have been addressing is the question as to what the future is really like. I assert that the future is exactly how God perceives it to be, REGARDLESS of whether your view of things is correct or mine (or some other view, for that matter). Do you agree with this assertion?
Old Tom: If so, how could “risk” have been a part of that particular view of the future?
MM: You didn't answer this questison. So, let me rephrase it. But first, a little insight. Since one of the options that God foresaw included what actually happened on the cross that particular option, therefore, by itself, independent of the other options, did not involve any risk.
Tom: Risk implies more than one option. Risk has no meaning in the context of one option.
MM: But the opposite is true of all the other options, that is, all of them involved certain failure. So, since each of these other options ended in failure there really was no risk involved, there was no hope of success, therefore, there was no doubt concerning the outcome.
Tom: At first I thought what you wrote was unintelligible, but I think I understand what you are saying, which is expressing a tautology. You are saying if you consider only the case where Jesus would fail, then there is no risk that He would not fail.
MM: Okay, here's my question to you - Which one of the many different options that God foresaw, in and of itself, independent of the other options, involved risk or uncertainty as to its outcome?
Tom: "Risk" implies more than one outcome. God foresaw all the possible outcomes. Some outcomes resulted in success, and others in failure. If none of the options God foresaw ended in failure, then there would have been no risk, right?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/12/05 12:36 AM
quote:
What I have been addressing is the question as to what the future is really like. I assert that the future is exactly how God perceives it to be, REGARDLESS of whether your view of things is correct or mine (or some other view, for that matter). Do you agree with this assertion?
If we divorce God from the equation then the future is open and unknown to us, except, of course, what we know about it from the prophecies.
quote:
"Risk" implies more than one outcome. God foresaw all the possible outcomes. Some outcomes resulted in success, and others in failure. If none of the options God foresaw ended in failure, then there would have been no risk, right?
Right! But that still doesn’t answer my question, does it?
Also, according to the prophecies, how different outcomes are portrayed?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/12/05 02:37 AM
Old Tom: What I have been addressing is the question as to what the future is really like. I assert that the future is exactly how God perceives it to be, REGARDLESS of whether your view of things is correct or mine (or some other view, for that matter). Do you agree with this assertion?
MM: If we divorce God from the equation then the future is open and unknown to us, except, of course, what we know about it from the prophecies.
Tom: This is totally irrelevant to the point I was making. You are addressing knowledge of the context of the future. I am addressing the reality of the nature of the future.
I'll try again:
I assert that the future is exactly how God perceives it to be, REGARDLESS of whether your view of things is correct or mine (or some other view, for that matter). Do you agree with this assertion?
Old Tom: "Risk" implies more than one outcome. God foresaw all the possible outcomes. Some outcomes resulted in success, and others in failure. If none of the options God foresaw ended in failure, then there would have been no risk, right?
MM: Right! But that still doesn’t answer my question, does it?
Tom: Well, it makes my point. Which is that if God only foresaw that Christ would succeed, then there would have been no risk, right?
MM: Also, according to the prophecies, how different outcomes are portrayed?
Tom: Do you mean like the prophesy that God would destroy Ninevah in 40 days? In that one, there was only one. It didn't happen, however. In the prophesies regarding the cursings and blessing of Israel, two were given.
Generally speaking, the prophesies foretell a given outcome provided a certain premise occurs, which premise is sometimes stated, sometimes implied.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/12/05 07:51 PM
quote:
I assert that the future is exactly how God perceives it to be, REGARDLESS of whether your view of things is correct or mine (or some other view, for that matter). Do you agree with this assertion?
Yes. However, the word “perceives” isn’t as definitive as the word “knows”. The future will unfold exactly as God knows it will.
quote:
Well, it makes my point. Which is that if God only foresaw that Christ would succeed, then there would have been no risk, right?
Right! And that’s my point. God knew Jesus would succeed on the cross. Therefore, the “risk” that Sister White wrote about in no way implies God didn’t know if Jesus would save us on the cross.
All the various possible options and outcomes available to Jesus, as it pertains to our salvation, boil down to two basic endings – salvation or damnation. And, since the messianic prophecies outline only one way for Jesus to save us it is obvious, to me, that only one of the many different options and outcomes available to Him would result in making salvation available to us.
There weren’t many different ways for Jesus to save us. Just one. “He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.” (Mat 26:42) If there had been any other way to save us God would have made it available to Jesus. Obviously, therefore, there was no other way to save us.
“The fate of humanity trembled in the balance. Christ might even now refuse to drink the cup apportioned to guilty man. It was not yet too late. He might wipe the bloody sweat from His brow, and leave man to perish in his iniquity. He might say, Let the transgressor receive the penalty of his sin, and I will go back to My Father. Will the Son of God drink the bitter cup of humiliation and agony? Will the innocent suffer the consequences of the curse of sin, to save the guilty? The words fall tremblingly from the pale lips of Jesus, "O My Father, if this cup may not pass away from Me, except I drink it, Thy will be done." (DA 690)
“To save the race from eternal death, the Son of God volunteered to bear the punishment of disobedience. Only by the humiliation of the Prince of heaven could the dishonor be removed, justice be satisfied, and man be restored to that which he had forfeited by disobedience. There was no other way. For an angel to come to this earth, to pass over the ground where Adam stumbled and fell, would not have sufficed. This could not have removed one stain of sin, or brought to man one hour of probation.” (1SM 308)
Again, of all the different options and outcomes available to Jesus only one of them would result in making salvation available to us. Consequently, all of the other ones would only result in damnation and eternal loss. Again, all of the various options and outcomes boil down to just two – salvation and damnation. As such, none of them involved “risk” in the sense that God didn’t know how the different outcomes would play out.
I realize you believe the “risk” God took was in not knowing if Jesus would choose the one option which would result in making salvation available to us. I also realize you believe the word “risk” means that God would lose Jesus for all eternity if He failed. But on this we disagree. I believe God knew all along that Jesus would choose the one and only option which involved no “risk” of Jesus failing to save us on the cross.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/12/05 11:29 PM
Old Tom:I assert that the future is exactly how God perceives it to be, REGARDLESS of whether your view of things is correct or mine (or some other view, for that matter). Do you agree with this assertion?
MM:Yes. However, the word “perceives” isn’t as definitive as the word “knows”. The future will unfold exactly as God knows it will.
Tom: "Knows" is fine. It's the same thing I meant by "perceive." The point is that the future really is fixed, according to your idea. We perceive it not to be fixed, but we are wrong. It is not as we perceive it to be, which is not fixed, but in reality fixed. Hopefully you agree with these statements, as I'm just reiterating what you just said.
Old Tom: Well, it makes my point. Which is that if God only foresaw that Christ would succeed, then there would have been no risk, right?
MM: Right! And that’s my point.
Tom: Yes, but that's not Sister White's point, which is my point.
MM: God knew Jesus would succeed on the cross. Therefore, the “risk” that Sister White wrote about in no way implies God didn’t know if Jesus would save us on the cross.
Tom: With this kind of logic, it will be impossible to prove anything whatsoever to you. Because if you believe, say, white is black, and Sister White says white is white you will respond, "White is black. Therefore when Sister White says white is white, it doesn't imply white is white."
At least I do not perceive any difference between your reasoning and what I just wrote. If there is a difference, perhaps you could point it out.
MM: All the various possible options and outcomes available to Jesus, as it pertains to our salvation, boil down to two basic endings – salvation or damnation.
Tom: This is irrelevant to the discussion.
MM: And, since the messianic prophecies outline only one way for Jesus to save us it is obvious, to me, that only one of the many different options and outcomes available to Him would result in making salvation available to us.
Tom: There are many different paths that could have been taken which could still have led to Jesus saving us. The only way He could fail was by sinning, but there were many ways He could have not sinned.
MM: There weren’t many different ways for Jesus to save us. Just one.
Tom: No, this is incorrect. There was certain defined instances in Christ's life when a specific decision had to be made at a specific time, but there were many times when Christ made decisions which were not of that character.
MM: “He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.” (Mat 26:42) If there had been any other way to save us God would have made it available to Jesus. Obviously, therefore, there was no other way to save us.
“The fate of humanity trembled in the balance. Christ might even now refuse to drink the cup apportioned to guilty man. It was not yet too late. He might wipe the bloody sweat from His brow, and leave man to perish in his iniquity. He might say, Let the transgressor receive the penalty of his sin, and I will go back to My Father. Will the Son of God drink the bitter cup of humiliation and agony? Will the innocent suffer the consequences of the curse of sin, to save the guilty? The words fall tremblingly from the pale lips of Jesus, "O My Father, if this cup may not pass away from Me, except I drink it, Thy will be done." (DA 690)
“To save the race from eternal death, the Son of God volunteered to bear the punishment of disobedience. Only by the humiliation of the Prince of heaven could the dishonor be removed, justice be satisfied, and man be restored to that which he had forfeited by disobedience. There was no other way. For an angel to come to this earth, to pass over the ground where Adam stumbled and fell, would not have sufficed. This could not have removed one stain of sin, or brought to man one hour of probation.” (1SM 308)
Again, of all the different options and outcomes available to Jesus only one of them would result in making salvation available to us. Consequently, all of the other ones would only result in damnation and eternal loss. Again, all of the various options and outcomes boil down to just two – salvation and damnation. As such, none of them involved “risk” in the sense that God didn’t know how the different outcomes would play out.
Tom: This whole line of logic is off because in talking about the future being fixed, it is not sufficient to establish that there was *a* point in time in which a specific decision had to be made, but you would have to establish that *every* point in time had a specific decision which had to be made.
MM: I realize you believe the “risk” God took was in not knowing if Jesus would choose the one option which would result in making salvation available to us.
Tom: You agreed with my analysis. You just disagree that God took a risk.
MM: I also realize you believe the word “risk” means that God would lose Jesus for all eternity if He failed.
Tom: Sister White's statement said, "at the risk of failure and eternal loss." She didn't go into detail about what that meant, and I have not speculated. I have stuck to her exact words in communicating what I believe. You may do so as well when you refer to what I believe (i.e., please stick to her exact words, as I have).
MM: But on this we disagree. I believe God knew all along that Jesus would choose the one and only option which involved no “risk” of Jesus failing to save us on the cross.
Tom: Right. We disagree. I think Sister White was correct; God really did take a risk. So did Christ.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/13/05 03:01 AM
quote:
We perceive it not to be fixed, but we are wrong. It is not as we perceive it to be, which is not fixed, but in reality fixed.
The future is fixed in the mind of God. It is not fixed in our minds. We are free to do and choose as we please. It doesn’t restrict our freedoms in the least because our choices agree with God’s hindsight view of the future.
Insisting that the nature of the future has nothing to do with God’s knowledge of it is like saying prophecy has nothing to do with God’s ability to see the future like a rerun. The whole concept of a fixed future is based solely on divine hindsight. Otherwise, there would be no such thing as a fixed future.
quote:
You agreed with my analysis.
No. I agreed, for the sake of argument, with your assumption.
quote:
MM: I believe God knew all along that Jesus would choose the one and only option which involved no “risk” of Jesus failing to save us on the cross.
I have all the messianic prophecies to back up this conclusion. Nowhere in the Bible does it predict that Jesus might not succeed in saving us on the cross. Jesus Himself said He would rise up from the grave on the third day. Based on these undeniable facts it would be difficult for me to prove Sister White’s use of the word “risk” contradicts these facts. I submit that "risk", as it is used in the SOP, agrees with the biblical and prophetic testimony.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/13/05 03:31 AM
Old Tom: I assert that the future is exactly how God perceives it to be, REGARDLESS of whether your view of things is correct or mine (or some other view, for that matter). Do you agree with this assertion?
Old MM: Yes. However, the word “perceives” isn’t as definitive as the word “knows”. The future will unfold exactly as God knows it will.
Old Tom: You agreed with my analysis.
MM: No. I agreed, for the sake of argument, with your assumption.
Tom: I thought by "yes" you meant "yes". But now you're telling me you really meant "no"? Well I'm confused
![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif)
Do you mean "yes" or "no"? I can't read your mind. If you mean "no", please say "no".
Here's my question again:
I assert that the future is exactly how God perceives it to be, REGARDLESS of whether your view of things is correct or mine (or some other view, for that matter). Do you agree with this assertion?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/13/05 06:14 AM
quote:
Do you agree with this assertion?
I guess I’m not clear on what you believe, so I cannot be sure if I agree with your assertions. Please disregard whatever I agreed to before. Here's what makes sense to me. I believe God knew all along that Jesus would choose the one and only option which involved no “risk” of Jesus failing to save us on the cross. Do you agree? Yes or No, please.
I have all the messianic prophecies to back up this conclusion. Nowhere in the Bible does it predict that Jesus might not succeed in saving us on the cross. Jesus Himself said He would rise up from the grave on the third day.
Based on these undeniable facts it would be difficult for me to prove Sister White’s use of the word “risk” contradicts these facts. I submit that "risk", as it is used in the SOP, agrees with the biblical and prophetic testimony.
The word "risk" in the SOP cannot mean or imply God did not know if Jesus would fail or succeed on the cross. Do you agree? Yes or No, please.
This is my last post on this thread.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan? - 08/13/05 07:32 AM
If this is your last post on this thread, what would it do for me to respond? I've been trying for dozens of posts to get you to answer a simple question which is fundamental to our whole discussion, and you finally did. But you immediately took it back. You claim you do not understand what I believe, but it's so simple a child could understand it.
I believe that God's perception, or knowledge if you prefer that word, corresponds to reality. Whatever God perceives, or knows, about a thing is how that thing really is.
What's difficult about understanding this?
Well if you're not going to respond to this thread any more, then I should do a good job with the last word.
God is in control of things in the sense that nothing happens that He does not permit. Also in the sense that in the end, He will proven to be the wonderful, gracious, kind, self-sacrificing God He really is, a God who is uncapable of doing anything but good; who does not destroy or condemn, but forgives and heals.
Satan is control in the sense that he has control of those over whom God gives him control, which are those who persistently resist the promptings of His Spirit. Also in the sense that all evil comes from him.