What Dual Application Doesn't Destroy the SDA Message?

I am not saying that there are no places for dual applications or even triple applications. Regarding Zechariah's vision of Joshua and the Angel, Ellen White notes three applications.

That being said, I am concerned about many of the so-called dual applications that are out there.

Out of the popular ones, which ones can someone believe in and still leave Adventism's major doctrines intact? Which ones genuinely can have a past fulfillment and a future fulfillment, without us becoming "fools and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken"? Which ones can we believe in without concluding that the prophet got it wrong?

Have you considered the Restoration Promises recorded all throughout the Old Testament? Especially the ones listed in Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel.

All of them should have been fulfilled by ancient Israel. Do we toss them out because Israel failed as a nation? No. A careful reading of the GC will reveal how Ellen White reapplied them to the issues associated with end time events.

Similarly, our Church should have fulfilled the balance of unfulfilled prophecy shortly after the Great Disappointment. But we failed to fulfill the gospel commission. Now what? Are we supposed to toss out those prophecies? I hope not.

When do we as a Church say the 7th seal and the 7th trumpet was fulfilled? From what I've read, the Church believes we are only half way through the 6th seal, and there is no clear belief regarding the 7th seal. And the 7th trumpet is also only partially fulfilled. But we say the 7 thunders were completely fulfilled by 1844.

I would like to suggest that from a historical application point of view all seven seals and trumpets have already been fulfilled as of 1844, and that we are now waiting for the future final reapplication of them.

If we follow what our pioneers wrote about the first 6 seals and trumpets and take it to its logical conclusion we might say something like this:

The 6th Seal - following the signs named in Rev 6:12,13 (which were fulfilled in 1755, 1780 and 1833) came the Millerite Movement. The events leading up to the Great Disappointment might very well be symbolically described in verses 14-17.

Before you get to excited take at look how the pioneers interpreted the 4 horsemen of Rev 8:6-13. If they could apply those symbols to the rise and fall of Eastern nations then why can't we be just as consistent and do the same with Rev 6:14-17?

If so, here's what it might look like: the "scroll" (verse 14) could be the book of Daniel (compare with Rev 10). The "mountains" and "islands" could represent the obstacles the Millerites overcame preaching the return of Christ (compare Mat 21:21). And those who "hid" (verse 15) could symbolize those who rejected the message or who weren't ready for Jesus to come.

And the "silence" (Rev 8:1) of the 7th seal might have been that period of time the faithful were waiting until the Lord led them to discover the truth about the heavenly sanctuary and the investigative judgment.

If a person is willing to consider this expanded interpretation then it is also possible that the 7 seals have a future final reapplication. And this application would in no way destroy the truthfulness of the historical application, no more so than Jesus' dual application in Mat 24.

I'll say more later on if you can stomach what I've suggested so far. By the way, I have a 4 page study on this topic. If anyone is interested I can email it to you.

Mike,

It seems apparent to me that there are prophecies in the OT that are conditional as to the type and unconditional as to the antitype. Thus some will never be fulfilled for the nation of Israel and will definitely be for antitypical Israel. And thus it was always meant to be, one possible fulfillment for the type and one definite fulfillment for the antitype. See my paper http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/ezekiels-city-circumference-of-the-earth.htm for a good example of this kind of thing.

If we don't have a solid understanding of the 7th seal, it's because we have forgotten EGW's first vision and James White's scripture references in A Word to the Little Flock. The half hour of silence is the "time of awful silence" that occurs as we wait for Jesus to answer our question, "Who shall be able to stand?" GC pistures the same time of silence. Prophetic time ceased in 1844.

I take it you mean that if our pioneers used the trumpets to depict eastern nations, why can't we do that with the seals. Is that what you meant?

Well, we can't. While the Bible uses the symbols of the first 4 trumpets in the OT to depict military conquest of Babylon or Judah or Israel, it uses the symbol of a horse in three places to represent God's people. Also, Ps. 45 and Acts 2 mandate that the 1st seal refer to Pentecost. I already outlined these things elsewhere, but here are the Scriptures again: Is. 63:13; Ca. 1:9; Zec. 10:3; Rev. 19:11; Ps. 45:1-7; Acts 2:37.

When you say that the seals might have a future application, what would the dark day and the stars in the future represent?

I think your suggestions about the scroll departing away, etc., are akin to those made by the spiritualizers after Oct. 22.

Not that literal things might not have spiritual significance, as literal Israel and literal Canaan vs. the church and the new earth.

But the literal always comes first. The type always comes first. Thus the heavens would have to literally depart before we have any kind of antitypical meaning.

You mention Mt. 24. Could you please be specific about which verses in Mt. 24 denote a dual application. I don't think it's as many as people think. Which ones do you think definitely are dual?

Pickle wrote:

"And thus it was always meant to be, one possible fulfillment for the type and one definite fulfillment for the antitype."

I agree. Thank you. Seems to me that the principles remain unchanged whereas the particulars may vary a little or a lot depending on the prophecy. For example, Ezekiel's temple will look alot different in the new earth than it would have had Israel been faithful.

Pickle wrote:

"The half hour of silence is the "time of awful silence" that occurs as we wait for Jesus to answer our question, "Who shall be able to stand?"

Amen. I concur exactly. "The righteous cry with trembling: "Who shall be able to stand?" The angels' song is hushed, and there is a period of awful silence. Then the voice of Jesus is heard, saying: "My grace is sufficient for you." GC 641.

Pickle wrote:

"I take it you mean that if our pioneers used the trumpets to depict eastern nations, why can't we do that with the seals. Is that what you meant?"

Yes. And I guess we disagree on this point. I'm just suggesting that if we apply the same logic to the 6th seal that our pioneers used to interpret the first 4 trumpets then it might read the way I shared.

Pickle wrote:

"When you say that the seals might have a future application, what would the dark day and the stars in the future represent?"

The same thing. It would parallel the first 4 trumpets and plagues after the close of probation.

Pickle wrote:

"I think your suggestions about the scroll departing away, etc., are akin to those made by the spiritualizers after Oct. 22."

So, those aren't new thoughts? Pretty cool.

Pickle wrote:

"But the literal always comes first. The type always comes first. Thus the heavens would have to literally depart before we have any kind of antitypical meaning."

Are you sure the literal always precedes the symbolic? What about the trumpets?

Pickle wrote:

"You mention Mt. 24. Could you please be specific about which verses in Mt. 24 denote a dual application. I don't think it's as many as people think. Which ones do you think definitely are dual?"

Here's what Ellen wrote: "The prophecy which He uttered was twofold in its meaning; while foreshadowing the destruction of Jerusalem, it prefigured also the terrors of the last great day." GC 25.

Mike:

Ezekiel's Temple

Based on the findings in my paper, Ezekiel's temple will never be built, but that which it should have been a type of if it had been built will exist forever in the new earth.

Dark Day

The darkness at Christ's return cannot be a future fulfillment of the 6th seal. In the 6th seal you have an earthquake 1st, and then the darkness. At the 2nd coming, according to GC, you have darkness 1st and then the earthquake, the same order that's seen in the 5th and 7th plagues. Since the order at the 2nd coming is reversed, that which happens then cannot possibly be a future fulfillment of the 6th seal.

Literal First

In what way does the symbolic preced the literal in regard to the trumpets?

2-Fold Mat. 24

Please answer the question. I know what GC says, and I believe it. Which verses in mat. 24 do you see being fulfilled twice?

Will Christ be seen twice in the clouds by all the tribes of the earth? Was He seen that way before the destruction of Jerusalem, or is that one aspect of Mat. 24 that only has one fulfillment?

Pickle, may I say studying with you is a great pleasure. I very much appreciate the kind and curteous manner in which you address the questions and comments I pose. Thank you.

RE: Temple - I like that thought. But it creates another question: if Moses built his sanctuary after the pattern shown him, then which temple did Solomon and Ezekiel pattern their temples after? Could it be that perhaps the temple that will exist in the new earth is as yet not built? I realize that the New Jersalem will descend with Jesus and the saved after the millennium, but does the temple outside the city follow it?

RE: 6th Seal - the listed order of events found in the seals, trumpets and plagues are similar enough to encourage me to consider how they might over lap in future. My own studies have led me to observe that the first 5 seals might be fulfilled during the little time of trouble leading up to the final close of probation. And that the last 2 seals, the trumpets and the plagues will be fulfilled after the probation closes and continue until Jesus raptures the saints. It is also my personal conviction that the natural disasters associated with the seals, trumpets and plagues will be caused by an astroid impact.

RE: Literal Trumpets - I think I might be misunderstanding your question, but here goes. Our pioneers applied a symbolic interpretation to the trumpets rather than a literal one. In other words, they didn't think that the "burning mountain" or "star" were literally so.

RE: Mat 24 - specifying which particular details have a historical and future application may not be an easy matter, but it would seem safe to say that the false christs, wars, natural disasters and persecution go both ways. Admittedly, the prophecy of Jesus and the other prophecies are different in many ways. His was not couched in symbolism. With those found in the Revelation we are faced with the difficult task of discerning which aspects are literal and which ones are symbolic, especially considering sometimes it's a mixture of both.

Mike,

Thanks for your thanks. If anything ever sounds inappropriate, please let me know.

The Pattern

The pattern Moses was shown was not actually the heavenly temple.

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He presented before Moses a miniature model of the heavenly sanctuary, and commanded him to make all things according to the pattern showed him in the mount. (1SP 269)

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David could have been shown a model as well, only a larger one. Perhaps what Ezekiel saw was actually a model.

New Earth Temple Built Yet?

Probably is. Since there will be no temple in the New Jerusalem, and since there is one now, where does the present one go? My thought is that it probably gets moved over to Mt. Zion after the new earth is created, though I would be disappointed if this is wrong.

EGW's 1st vision is actually two put together. You can find where the break is from 1T 67. What appears to be at the end of the 1st part of the 1st vision rather than at the beginning of the 2nd part of the 1st vision is the following:

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And as we were gazing at the glories of the place our eyes were attracted upwards to something that had the appearance of silver. I asked Jesus to let me see what was within there. In a moment we were winging our way upward, and entering in; here we saw good old father Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Daniel, and many like them.(WLF 16)

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Then follows a decription of the Most Holy.

Later when EGW was answering questions about this part of the vision, she said:

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In another passage from the book A Word to the Little Flock, I speak of scenes upon the new earth, and state that I there saw holy men of old, "Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Daniel and many like them."

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So it would appear that when the New Jerusalem first comes down to earth, the temple is still in it. Therefore I feel that after the new earth is created, then this temple is moved outside the city.

Similarities Between Seals, Trumpets, and Plagues

Why these similarities exist, I do not know. But I do know this: Rev. 14:7 misquotes the 4th commandment. "Who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that in them is/fountains of waters." The last expression is found in the 3rd trumpet and plague. In the 1st four trumpets and plagues we have these four elements, though in different order: earth, sea, fountains of waters, and heaven.

Future Seals and Trumpets

My contention is that they cannot possibly be future. Two reasons: 1) Exegetically. 2) Putting them future affects the integrity of our message.

Exegetically involves several things: 1) Immediate context. 2) How the symbols are used elsewhere. 3) The interconnections between them and other prophecies.

6th Seal After Close of Probation

When? As pointed out, it can't be at the 2nd coming. When do you think it would happen again?

5th Seal

Regarding this happening again during the little time of trouble, please note 4MR 89 (1904) and 21MR 101 (1907). Thus the little time of trouble probably has been going on a for a century now, and includes Stalin's purges, Pol Pot, Hiroshima, Rwanda, and September 11.

It would appear that perhaps the little time of trouble is almost over, and thus if the first 5 seals are to be repeated then, we're almost out of time for that to happen.

Literal Trumpets

Now I understand your point.

Consider my paper on the trumpets: http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/seven-trumpets.htm . In it I demonstrate how all the trumpets utilize symbols associated with military conquest. Also, the 4th trumpet poses mountainous difficulties to a future fulfillment. Consider these things and tell me your thoughts.

Mat. 24

I think you hit the nail on the head. The "wars and rumours of wars" part applies to both before the fall of Jerusalem and before the 2nd coming.

But notice Mat. 24:11 and 24. Thus we have Jesus specifically putting false prophets back then and today. If we make both verses dual, then we have Christ predicting 4 times of false prophets, not just 2.

Also notice Lk. 21:11 and 25. Two times of signs in the heavens. One back then and one today. If they're both dual, then we have 4 times of heavenly signs, not just 2.

Jesus mingled the events together, and left it for His disciples to figure it out (DA 628). One question we should ask ourselves is if they had a bit of it figured out before they wrote it down. Luke was Paul's associate, and Paul knew that the pope had to reign for 1260 years before the second coming (2 Th. 2; GC 356). Thus it is likely that what Matthew and Luke wrote down is not as mingled as it was when Christ first gave the instruction.

One last point: We have a solid basis for saying that Mat. 24 has a dual application to the fall of Jerusalem and the end of time. Do we have any similar statements to say that Mat. 24 has a third application? 1) Fall of Jerusalem. 2) 1780 & 1833. 3) After Close of Probation.

What I am suggesting is that we are out of bounds when we use these statements of Ellen White to show that there could be a dual fulfillment of the Dark Day. If there were to be two fulfillments of the Dark Day, then the first would have to be at the fall of Jerusalem, for that is what her statements say. Two-fold meaning: 1) Fall of Jerusalem. 2) End of time. She doesn't allow for a third in her statements.

Mike wrote:

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Pickle, may I say studying with you is a great pleasure. I very much appreciate the kind and curteous manner in which you address the questions and comments I pose. Thank you.

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I also appreciate that.

May we all, likewise, be as kind and courteous as this makes for a family atmosphere in MSDAOL, even when we disagree over a topic.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

Excellent study on the temple in the new earth. I really like the way you strung those passages together. Well done. We shall have to wait and see which temple God places atop the mount. But I would be surprised if there is an outer court compartment since it deals with blood sacrifices.

The other two apartments, as I see it, apply throughout eternity, that is, they could be employed in a way different than has been now. In other words, God might institute new services connected with them which do not involve the sin problem, services which would symbolize growth in righteousness and holiness.

Personally, I don't have a problem with entertaining the idea that the seals and trumpet might accommodate two dispensations; 1) 34-1844 AD, and 2) 1844-the 2nd Advent. I also don't have a problem with people who believe only in the historical view. In the bigger scheme of things it plays a small part either way. Not that it isn't important what we believe about the prophecies, because it is. I believe we are safe either way providing our views do not deviate drastically from the main frame of events as eloquently penned by Ellen White.

As they say, The devil is in the details, so maybe a person should be careful with trying to figure out every detail. However, it might be a good idea to try and reconcile some of the things Ellen White says about future events with the Bible, especially in those places where she isn't quoting or interpreting the Bible.

Here's a couple thoughts to consider:

1. The 7 churches - if these churches represent time periods ending with the remnant church, is it fair to reason that the first word in chapter 4 ("After this") indicates an ongoing narrative? If so, then it seems logical to suggest that the phrase, "I will show thee things which must be hereafter" (Rev 4:1), is referring to developments that would transpire during the Laodicea Era (1844-the return of Jesus).

2. If, from a dual application perspective, it is allowable to apply the seals to the last day remnant church (the SDA church) then I can very easily picture how they go along quite nicely with what we believe about end time events. I can elaborate later on if necessary.

3. Rev 4:2 pictures "one" divine being seated on the throne, but when Jesus returned to heaven in AD 31 He sat beside the Father on the sides of the north. Thus, there would have been two on the throne. But when Jesus followed the Father into the most holy place in 1844 He stood before Him. Which would mean only one sat on the throne. These observations may indicate that Rev 4 portrays Jesus in the MHP sometime afater 1844.

4. Rev 4:11 and 5:12 says Jesus is worthy to "receive" honor, power, authority, etc., which may be a reference to Dan 7:9-14 where Jesus enters the MHP to receive His everlasting dominion during the inv. judgment.

5. Rev 5 is all about opening the "book", which may be a reference to Dan 7:9-14 where Jesus began examining the books in 1844.

6. Perhaps all these similarities are mere coincidenses. But you can't blame a guy for wondering if they aren't.

RE: The 6th Seal - if it accurate to believe there will be a future final application of the 6th seal then I suspect it will happen the moment probation closes, and that it is associated with the asteroid impact.

RE: The 5th Seal - I am familiar with Ellen White's comments about the latter rain, the little time of trouble and 144,000 beginning to come together during her lifetime. However, my studies have led me to conclude that those things passed due to the church not being ready. Thus, I now believe that they are yet future as of today, and will begin to unfold again shortly after the USA begins enforcing the federal sunday laws, at which time I doubt there will be any stopping them until Jesus arrives in glory.

RE: The 7 Trumpets - thank you for those well developed thoughts on the trumpets. Please consider the following observations in light of what you wrote:

1. Rev 8:2-5 seems to describe the close of probation. The "golden censer" was used in the MHP on the day of atonement, and tossing it to the ground strongly suggests the end of Jesus' MHP ministry. The sounding of the trumpets gives the impression that Jesus has mounted His war horse and is earthbound to mete out the rewards of mankind.

2. The striking similarities between the natural disasters potrayed in the first 4 trumpets and what scientists say would happen if an asteroid a half mile long were to impact the Pacific ocean may be more than a coincidense.

3. The fact there are people who have the "seal of God in their foreheads" (Rev 9:4), during the 5th trumpet, speaks in favor of events that happen after probation closes.

Again, please understand that I am not on some hobby horse to convince people to believe one way or another concerning the things I've shared regarding how things might be in future. The only thing I can confidently believe without a doubt is what Sister White wrote in the GC and LDE. That's not to say I don't enjoy studying prophecy, or hearing what you have discovered.

Mike,

After This

Your point is something to consider, but I don't think it is valid. Consider Rev. 15:5 where the same Greek phrase occurs. If your point was true, then we would have to have the 7 last plagues poured out after we get to heaven.

Rather, John is merely saying that he's seeing another scene. The scenes are no necessarily chronological.

Seals Future?

No one has yet been willing to answer my points regarding the 5th seal. From what I can tell, the 5th seal cannot possibly be future. And if the 5th can't, then the first 5 can't.

We have a few passages like 5T 451 that say that the blood of the martyrs will cry out to God during the time of Jacob's trouble, and the 5th seal is quoted.

This is in contrast to the pioneer's position that the 5th seal had to do with after the inquisition and the sending of the Reformation. Yet what many have missed is GC 59, 60 which supports this very position.

And then there is RH 7/17/00 paragraph 5 which says that the martyrs cried before the 1st advent of Christ.

What it appears is that a number of times, starting with Abel, things have gotten so bad that God had to do something. "A crisis had arrived in the government of God." He spoke to Cain. The voices hushed. He sent Jesus the first time. The voices hushed. He sent the Reformation. The voices hushed. He will send Jesus the 2nd time. The voices will praise God throughout eternity.

So which time of crying was the fulfillment of the 5th seal? Abel? No. The 1st advent? No. How about the time of Jacob's trouble?

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. . . and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Rev. 6:11)

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If there will be no martyrs after the close of probation, then how can what happens during the time of Jacob's trouble be a fulfillment of this?

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Isaiah 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

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If the earth will no longer cover her slain after the close of probation, how could these martyrs be told to rest yet? After God talked to Cain, his blood rested. After the 1st advent, they rested. After the Reformetion, they rested. But when they cry that last time, THEY WILL REST NO MORE!

Therefore I must conclude that it is an utter impossibility for the 5th seal to have either its 1st fulfillment or its 2nd fulfillment in the future.

Rev. 4 - Holy or Most Holy?

GC 414, 415 says that this is the 1st apartment. Since the Lord said it's the 1st, we really ought no to say it's the 2nd.

The fact of the matter is that the reason Christ isn't pictured in Rev. 4 is because He arrives in ch. 5.

EGW uses the praises of Rev. 5 in AA and 3SP when decribing the ascension of Christ. In the latter she makes it clear that the 24 elders are those that Christ took to heaven at that time. This is an additional reason why we really cannot put Rev. 5 after 1844.

A third reason is this: Why was not Christ worthy to loose the seals of the book in Rev. 5:3. Crucial point. In vs. 3 not even Jesus was worthy. It's not until vs. 5 that Christ is worthy. And why is He worthy? Because He had "prevailed," conquered, overcome sin, Satan, and the grave. In vs. 6 we see the Lamb as if He had been slain. Why? Because we are talking about the ascension. Thus we have solid support for EGW's interpretation of these things found in AA and 3SP.

Now if we want to ignore this, we have to contend with 5:13. GC quotes this one on its last page for a reason. It's future. And when it occurs, the seals will all be over. When the wicked are calling for the rocks to fall on them, when they're blaspheming God because of the plagues, every creature will not yet be praising God.

Two choices: Either the seals occur after the end of sin, an impossibility, or the ascension and the end of sin form the boundaries between which the seals take place. The latter is the right choice.

If the seals don't occur till after 1844, then why did AA 45 apply the first seal to Pentecost, in harmony with Ps. 45 and Acts 2:37?

Please notice that your points regarding one being on the throne in Rev. 4, etc., suggest not a dual fulfillment but a single fulfillment in the future. This is my concern: People start with dual and end up with one, tossing out the interpretations given in the SOP. If for the reasons you suggest, the seals are future to 1844, then GC is wrong when it puts the Dark Day in 1780. Thus confidence in our message diminishes.

Rev. 8 and Close of Probation

EW 279 associates the casting down of the censer with the close of probation.

But we are overlooking something: The Angel (Jesus our High Priest) doesn't use the censer at first. He burns incense on the golden altar, which is something Aaron was told to do every morning and evening. Thus we must be looking into the Holy Place, and thus we are saved from the embarassing conclusion that EGW was wrong in GC 414, 415 when she said John was looking into the Holy Place at this point.

When the Angel put fire into the censer, that is when we are looking at the yearly work, for the high priest did that on Yom Kippur.

If we place the trumpets after the close of probation because of the casting down of the censer, we err, for we are not being consistent. We are overlooking the voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake. Compare Rev. 4:5; 8:5; 11:19; 16:18, 21. What we are looking at is the voice of God delivering His people. That causes the earthquake. Hail occurs at the same time.

Simply put, to be consistent, we must place the trumpets after the 7th plague, which is impossible.

So the proper way to look at it is that Christ's daily work and the second coming form the boundaries between which the seven trumpets take place.

The plagues are the same. Their intro is in ch. 15. The boundaries there are no man being allowed into the temple (the close of probation) and the redeemed standing on the sea of glass.

Asteroid?

I don't see how an asteroid can cause the 4th trumpet. How can an asteroid knock out 1/3 of the sun, and cause us to have 8 hours of daylight instead of 12? How can it do the same for the moon?

For that matter, I can't see how there can possibly be any future fulfillment of the 4th trumpet, or how it can be taken literally.

Pat Robertson wrote a novel about end time events. The US President commits suicide as he speaks to the nation about an asteroid soon hitting the Pacific. Then the VP becomes the President. He's a drunk, so his wife asks help from some immoral person, who hooks him up with a new VP. I think eventually the President is assassinated, and this new VP becomes the President. He ends up ruling the world from elsewhere. Some kook saying "death to the new world order" shoots him in the head, and the immoral guy (aka "false prophet") who got him into the government commands him (aka "the beast") to come back to life, which he does. Then he wants his statue put up everywhere, which the Jews don't want in their new temple, so he gets mad. And that's where I quit reading this garbage.

So the idea of an asteroid is part of the package that is getting Protestants away from their historicist roots. Whether right or wrong, that's what it is doing.

Back to This Thread's Topic

If we put any of the first 6 trumpets into the future, what do we do with Rev. 8:13; 9:12; 10:7; and 11:14? If the 6th trumpet hasn't commenced yet, then neither has Rev. 10, and neither has Rev. 11. Thus one of the foundational doctrines of Adventism is destroyed.

More than that, in Rev. 10 the book of Daniel is unsealed. Wheich part? The head of gold? That was never sealed. Dan. 8:17 and 26 make it clear that specifically the 2300 days were to be sealed until the time of the end. Dan. 11:33, 35 and 12:4:6, 7 make it clear that the time of the end began after the 1260 days.

Now if we say that Rev. 10 is future because it's part of the 6th trumpet, and if the trumpets are future it must be too, then we are in big trouble. What we are inevitably saying is that the 2300 days are still sealed, and the 1260 days have not yet ended.

The Angel of Rev. 10 announces the end of the 2300 days. So we are basically saying that the 2300 days have not ended yet.

And thus we are basically putting off the 2nd coming, because before He comes we must have 1) these prophecies unsealed, 2) a world-wide message based on them, 3) a revival ending with a bitter experience, 4) a second world-wide message, presumable connected with the 3rd angel's message.

So should we destroy Adventism because we can't seem to figure out why the seal of God is mentioned in the 5th trumpet? Or would it be better to conclude that there have always been some who kept the Sabbath? And that when Abu Bekr told his troops to leave such alone, that the reason it sounds like he was quoting Rev. 9 was because he was, whether he knew it or not?

[This message has been edited by Pickle (edited November 18, 2001).]

Whew! What a thorough post. Thank you. Clearly you are in opposition to anything that smacks of dual application. And I can't blame you.

And I'm sure that no matter what I say from this point onward will do nothing to change your mind, especially since that's not my goal. But may I say in closing that from my point of view nothing I have suggested concerning a future final application in any way destroys the historical interpretation. I suspect you would differ with that, but from the way I see things I can accept both as valid.

I believe that the symbols employed in the Revelation are perfectly calculated to accommodate two fulfillments without destroying either one. They are wonderfully flexible in their simplicity. It requires an understanding of the principles of prophecy and how to apply them appropriately.

Rev 10:6 and 11 motivates me to look for ways how the seals and trumpets might be fulfilled again in future without reapplying the time periods mentioned therein. I believe all the arguments enlisted to prove the historical view of the passages you commented on in your last post are beyond contradiction. However, I also believe, which you may find hard to believe, that what I suggested in my last post is also valid.

From a dual application point of view the principles of prophetic interpretation remain unchanged. However, they are applied differently given the era being described. For example, if the prophecy is being looked at from a pre-1844 point of view the details of the prophecy apply to developments during that time period. And if those same details are being discussed from a post-1844 view point then they apply to developments that will occur during that time period.

The time elements of prophecy cannot be reapplied to a future scenario due to the nature of time and space. Which is why John was told that the time portions of his prophecy would not be included in a future application following the great disappointment of 1844.

It is the highly flexible nature of the symbols employed by God in the Revelation that makes a dual application possible. It is this very point that prevents a dual application from destroying either view. It's this same dynamic that permits us to reapply the Restoration Promises, originally intended to be fulfilled by post-exilic Jews, to spiritual Israel (the SDA church) in future. But not without serious modifications.

Many of the details contained within these prophecies must be reinterpreted in order to fit within the future model of fulfillment. In this same way, we must exercize spiritual discernment as we seek to fulfill God's commission to apply the seals and trumpets to a future fulfillment.

I realize you cannot accept these thoughts without a protest, but it might prove unprofitable for you and I to belabor the discussion further, therefore, unless otherwise moved by the Spirit, I intend to follow it as silent witness. Thank you for the things you have shared - food for thought.

Mike,

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply.

You probably realize that there are quite a few folk out there who either cannot or will not do what you have suggested. To have a future application be true as well as a past one, at some point many jettison the past one. I wish everyone who gets into this kind of thing could draw the line where you do.

I see better where you are coming from. The prophecies of Revelation you are treating like the prophecies of the OT about Israel. They were conditional, Israel didn't meet the conditions, and so they will be fulfilled in the church, only differently.

When we look at the historicist interpretations, we could ask ourselves which were conditional, and who didn't meet the conditions back in the 1500's as well as the 1840's.

Consider Rev. 11:1. "Measure" is used by Jesus to mean "judge" in Mat. 7:2. Thus we have the 1) temple, 2) altar, and 3) worshippers in 11:2 being judged or measured. These are the three entities lceansed on the Day of Atonement in Lev. 16.

So in Rev. 10 we have the 2300 days, the only part of Daniel specifically said to be sealed, unsealed. "Time no longer" thus refers to the coming end of the 2300 days. There is some sort of bitterness attached to the messge. Then John is told that he must prophesy again. And then the three entities are judged or measured, thus connecting Yom Kippur with the 2300 days of Dan. 8:14.

If the trumpets are future because of modern Israel not fulfilling some sort of conditions, do you see a way to make them future without somehow saying that THE antitypical Yom Kippur is also future? Is there a way to separate the trumpets from Yom Kippur?

Sure, I have some definite opinions because I have seen the results of this kind of reasoning, and I have thought through a lot of the questions involved. But if someone can give solid answers to some of these questions, I'd change my mind.

I would be interesting in your dealing with the 4th trumpet. What in the future could cause 1/3 of the sun to go black which would then cause us to have 8 hours of daylight instead of 12? My paper on the trumpets deals with the significance of this question. And it is a major point. Toi what degree can we modify this prophecy and still call it a fulfillment?

One last thought:

quote:

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Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

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If the promise was always that Abraham and his seed would inherit the earth (kosmos rather than ge, the latter of which could mean just "land"), then how did a conditional prophecy change?

We might be inclined to say that because Israel didn't fulfill the conditions, the land of Canaan promised in the prophecy became the new earth. But if Abraham was promised the world up front, this idea cannot be true.

The only possible answer is that the promises to Israel were a conditional type of an antitype. While the type may not have taken place in some situations, the antitype will.

Looking at it in this way, very few OT propecies if any have to be altered in order to fit the church.

Applying this to the discussion: If the Dark Day and similar prophecies cannot be shown to be a conditional type, then they probably cannot be adjusted the way you suggest.

It is fine if you bow out, but I'm not sure if anyone else is going to tackle these issues. We'll see.

Pickle, I guess I didn't mean to imply that the historical view is based on a condition that the church failed to meet. Rather, I believe it was fulfilled perfectly by the church from AD 31-1844. Remember how I took liberties, a few posts back, to suggest a possible fulfillment of the 6th and 7th seals? That was my attempt to discover a legitmate way to close out the historical view, rather than leaving it open ended like the church does. Otherwise, I doubt anyone could build a valid case for dual application if the historical is not even finished being fulfilled.

In Rev 10:11 John was indeed told that his prophecies would be repeated after the great disappointment. But why? To me it probably has something to do with the fact that the Millerites didn't quite have the message altogther right. In fact, I have a book from LOA that contains copies of the sermons Miller preached during those eventful days leading up to 1844. And it is actually surprising just how much our theology has changed since then. Have you ever read his sermons?

What has changed mostly is how we apply Rev 13 and the 3AM's. But most SDA's have not interpreted it to mean that the seals and trumpets must also be reapplied. And that may be true. But so far I have not found major cause to jettison a possible dual fulfillment. So long as the historical remains true, then I feel as though I am safe considering a future final fulfillment.

RE: Yom Kippur - the way I apply the 7th trumpet in future is to interpret it in accordance with how Ellen White describes scenes associated with the arrival of Christ in the sky just before He destroys the unsaved and raptures the saved.

"The kingdoms of this world ARE [not will] become the kingdoms of our Lord" (Rev 11:15) would be literally true at that time, rather than being a reference to some future date. "The time of the dead that they should judged" (verse 18) would be referring to the millennial judgment of the unsaved.

And "give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints" (verse 18) would literally happen at that time. And seeing "the ark of his testament" (verse 19) would be a reference to when the world sees the hands in the sky holding open the two tables of stone on which is written the ten commandments.

RE: the 4th trumpet - the way I understand the third part of the sun, moon and stars being smitten is that their light will be obscured over a third of the world's surface by the debris kicked up in the atmosphere when the asteroid impacts earth. It would be similar to a nuclear winter.

RE: Abraham - my understanding of the old covenant relationship between the nation of Israel and Abraham is that they are one and the same thing. And that all the restoration promises should have been fulfilled by the Jews when they returned to Israel after their Babylonian captivity. But as of AD 34 their probation period expired and the new covenant promises fell to the church. But not without serious modifications. Most of which are found in the Revelation. And if I might add, I think they are new and improved.

Mike, I was unsettled for a while about the timing of the 7 trumpets - whether they occur before or after probation. The first part of Revelation 8 though has its counter-part in the sealing vision in Ezekiel 9 (I think that's where it starts, but it may be in chapter 10 or 11.). That and the descriptions of the throne scenes in Isaiah 6 and at the beginning of Jeremiah convinced me that scattering fire on the earth refers to the latter rain. Jesus came to send fire on the earth he said. He's looking forward to it.

Mark, are you suggesting that the trumpets will undergo another fulfillment just before probation closes? If so, can you please say more about it?

Mike,

Can you really find a way to "close out" the historicist interpretation of the seals when the SOP clearly says that it hasn't been? Can you do this without suggesting that inspired writings are incorrect?

Rev. 10:11 says nothing about prophecies being repeated. It says that another message must be given.

Miller's sermons are incorrect about a number of things, and you will find that Millerite preachers did not agree with him on some points. For instance, his date for the latest ending of the 2300 days in the spring of 1844, March 21, was different than what others gave, for he did not understand how the Jewish calendar worked.

quote:

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So long as the historical remains true, then I feel as though I am safe considering a future final fulfillment [of the trumpets].

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Please then address how we can have a future fulfillment without destroying our interpretation of the 2300 days, the various points concerning which I have already addressed.

You apply the 7th trumpet to the future because of Rev. 11:15, and vs. 19 as well. And yet GC 433 says that vs. 19 refers to 1844, so the 7th trumpet cannot be future. How can your position be true without concluding that inspired writings are incorrect?

Regarding the 4th trumpet, can you find any biblical precedent for saying that when the sun is smitten, that really means the earth will be smitten?

Please consider that the Abraham was told that he would inherit the land. Stephen in Acts 7 states the obvious, that Abraham never got any land. Onviously, Genesis is really foretelling a resurrection, not merely a restoration of mortal Jews.

The OT in places speaks as if Canaan was the land that was promised. And yet Romans says that he was to inherit the world, when he didn't get anything. The only possible conclusion is that we are looking at type and antitype here.

[This message has been edited by Pickle (edited November 22, 2001).]

Mark and Mike,

Feel free to share any interpretation of the trumpets you like. I only ask that in so doing we stick to the topic of this thread. Please relate how any interpreation under discussion does or does not destroy Adventism's message.

Specifically about the trumpets, we have vss. in Rev. 10 and 11 that tell us that the unsealed 2300 days and the slaying of the 2 witnesses are part of the 6th trumpet. So how can whatever future application you propose be true without also mandating that the 2300 days not yet be ended or unsealed? And how can it be true without also saying that GC is wrong in its chapter on the French Revolution?

Key questions that demand answers. And may I suggest that if we can't answer them, then silence is eloquence regarding future applications.

Pickle, I'm not sure I can say anything else that would make the points I've already shared any clearer. But I'll try again.

RE: Ellen White - While I am convinced of her prophetic gift and calling, I am not convinced that she was given the final say so concerning a future application of the seals and trumpets. Nor do I believe she ever wrote anything to discourage it.

I believe the following quote even suggests that she was anticipating a future fulfillment of the trumpets along side the plagues after probation closes.

"Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded; vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth.--3SM 426 (1890). {LDE 238.1}

I realize that the bulk of what Ellen White wrote provides detailed descriptions of the historical fulfillment of the seals and trumpets. Be that as it may, I do not believe that she intended for her words to be taken to mean that she was not in favor of a dual application. I understand that is the position you have taken. And in that sense we are not in agreement.

RE: Closing out the seals and trumpets - I also realize that Ellen White did not say anything to suggest that the balance of the unfulfilled portions of the seals and trumpets might have been fulfilled by 1844 as I have recommended in a previous post in this thread.

However, I do not believe that to suggest it as a possibility in any way discredits her gift or the authenticity of her writings. To insinuate such an accusation tends to discourage further search for new light.

I have tried to be clear that I do not disagree with the historical application of prophecy. I believe it is valid and without error. I do wonder though if our pioneers, Ellen White included, were not inspired (for whatever reason) to consider "closing out" the seals and trumpets. I suspect that on this score we must be willing to step out in faith and dare to think beyond where our founding ancestors left off.

RE: Rev 10:11 - I realize that you do not believe this passage includes reapplying the seals and trumpets - along with the 3AM's - however, I cannot help but wonder if the command, "Thou must prophesy again", doesn't have something to do with prophecy as well as with a message.

RE: the 2300 day prophecy - I do not believe that a dual application requires rejecting the historical interpretation of the 2300 day prophecy and it's relationship to 1844. Rev 10:6 makes it clear to me that the time portions of prophecy cannot be included in a future application.

The very nature of time disallows a dual fulfillment. But the very flexible nature of symbolic prophecy seems to have been designed to accommodate two "separate yet similiar" time periods or dispensations. The principles and particulars of a prophecy must be applied with divine guidance in order to arrive at truth, especially new light.

It is the versatile principles of interpreting prophecy that allow me to apply certain passages historically and to apply them to the future without undoing either one. Which is how I can entertain thoughts suggesting a dual application of the 7th trumpet (and the seals and trumpets in general) without having to give up what I know to be truth from a historical point of view. I understand that you cannot accept this logic.

RE: the 4th trumpet - I do not see a problem suggesting that a partial global cloud cover obscuring a third of the celestial light from reaching the earth qualifies for the sun, moon and star light being smitten.

RE: Abraham and the world - I am not thrown off when the Bible uses the word "world" to refer to Caanan or the Roman Empire. When Paul wrote that the gospel had gone to all the "world" I do not believe that he meant the entire world as we know it today.

Also, I find it difficult not to believe that when God promised Abraham and his descendants a land flowing with milk and honey that He wasn't speaking specifically of Caanan. However, I do believe that it was God's long range plan that eventually the nation of Israel would continue to expand her borders until they encompassed the enire planet.

It seems clear that this was God's intentions before and after the Babylonian captivity of the Jews. But on both accounts the Jews failed to meet the conditions and God's original plan for a chosen nation were not realized. Now He will fulfill His plan through the church and the new earth.

And all those OT promises to make a great nation out of the Jews will be fulfilled by the church and the new earth. Of course there will be major modifications to the original historical application in order to reflect how they will be fulfilled in future. But to me that's the beauty of the flexible nature of prophecy.

I like the saying - Although conditional prophecy is nonetheless inevitable.

Please consider that the Abraham was told that he would inherit the land. Stephen in Acts 7 states the obvious, that Abraham never got any land. Onviously, Genesis is really foretelling a resurrection, not merely a restoration of mortal Jews.

The OT in places speaks as if Canaan was the land that was promised. And yet Romans says that he was to inherit the world, when he didn't get anything. The only possible conclusion is that we are looking at type and antitype here.

[This message has been edited by Pickle (edited November 22, 2001).][/B][/QUOTE]

Mike,

I think somehow we are misunderstanding each other. Let's keep trying.

Above you suggested that Rev. 11:19 was future. Jesus through Ellen White said otherwise. Are you willing to concede that Jesus was correct on that point and that you were not?

Your exegetical principles make it difficult to arrive at definitive truth. In order to test your hypotheses we need to have something definite to work with. What the testimony of Jesus in GC says about Rev. 11:19 is something definite. If you can agree with what it says, then we can discuss some of your other points in the light of something definite.

I am curious regarding just how much of Rev. 10 and 11 you do not think will have a 2nd application. You don't feel that there will be a 2nd 2300 days. Well, that would also mean that we will not have a second unsealing of the 2300 days at the conclusion of the 1260 days, I would think. And if this be the case, then we would not likely have a 2nd fulfillment of eating the bitter-sweet book. And if this be the case, then a major part of the 6th trumpet will not have a 2nd fulfillment.

If "trumpet after trumpet" refers to the messages given by God's people when the historical judgments took place, then we can easily have a repetition of the reformatory messages without a repetition of the judgments that followed.

Mike, yes, I think the throne scene in Revelation 8 is the beginning of the latter rain. The throne scenes in the bible describe the judgement of the living, and the latter rain is concurrent with the judgment of the living. The trumpets sound to hearld that event.

My reason for saying that the latter rain and the judgment of the living go together is that we are judged by our handling of light. We know that the latter rain will bring a blaze of light, (the fourth angel of Revelation 18), and the light will cause the judgement.

Like Marvin Moore, from Signs of the Times, I think that the Trumpets will likely be literal events that will startle the world, warning it that probation is about to close.

[This message has been edited by Mark Shipowick (edited November 23, 2001).]

Mark,

Your last post was a real puzzle to me. Please see my last post to you above.

Please, out of Christian courtesy, relate your last post to the topic of this thread. Please, out of Christian courtesy, demonstrate how the ideas you just expressed do not destroy the Adventist message in the ways that I suggested above.

Please be specific about how your ideas do not 1) mandate that the 2300 days have not yet been unsealed, 2) mandate that the 2300 days have not yet ended, and 3) mandate that Jesus made a mistake when He testified through Ellen White that the 6th trumpet is history.

Further, please demonstrate how applying the throne room scene in Rev. 8 to right before the close of probation does not mandate that Jesus goofed when He testified that that was referring to the Holy Place.

Or, assuming that He was correct in placing the throne room scene of Rev. 8 in the Holy place, please demonstrate how it doesn't mandate that Jesus has not yet entered the Most Holy.

We are dealing with serious stuff here. Basically, these ideas make Jesus out to be a liar, and that is pretty serious.

Not that you have realized this before. Don't take it personal, because we all err in ignorance. But now that we have gone over these things multiple times, what will you do? Will you submit your own ideas and personal opinions to what Jesus has plainly said? Will you concede that the throne room scene of Rev. 8 refers to the Holy Place?

[This message has been edited by Pickle (edited November 24, 2001).]

Mark, thank you for answering my question regarding the throne room scene in Rev 8. I would be interested in studying this point with you further. But I guess we better start a new thread, or perhaps David has already done just that.

Pickle, it looks as though we have come to a stalemate. I don't think I can say anything more on this subject. I whole heartedly accept the historical view of the seals and trumpets. And I do not believe that the ideas I have proposed concerning a future application contradicts or destroys the testimony of Ellen White.

Thank you for studying this topic with me. I hope that some day we can both see eye to eye on prophecy.

Mike,

You wrote:

quote:

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And seeing "the ark of his testament" (verse 19) would be a reference to when the world sees the hands in the sky holding open the two tables of stone on which is written the ten commandments.

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I pointed out the folowing:

quote:

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The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament." Revelation 11:19. The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," this apartment was opened only upon the great Day of Atonement for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement. (GC 433)

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In my last post I asked you if you were willing to concede that Rev. 11:19 could therefore not be future. You responded:

quote:

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And I do not believe that the ideas I have proposed concerning a future application contradicts or destroys the testimony of Ellen White.

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I'm not sure how this answers the question. But you are free not to answer it if you wish.

quote:

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And I do not believe that the ideas I have proposed concerning a future application contradicts or destroys the testimony of Ellen White.

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I realize this is your opinion, but to maintain that Rev. 11:19 is future either leaves the impression that Jesus' testimony in GC 433 is wrong, or suggests that He hasn't entered the Most Holy Place yet.

Pickle, I'm sorry I left that point hanging. Bad form. As I see it, both applications of Rev 11:19 harmonize perfectly. That's the nature of dual application. It is the flexibility of symbolic prophecy that allows one prophecy to accommodate two "separate yet similar" scenarios.

It involves the dynamics of the principle versus the particulars of a dual application prophecy. Thus I can whole heartedly embrace our historical view (including the additions or modifications I suggested concerning the unfulfilled aspects of the seals and trumpets), plus I can welcome future applications that do not deviate from our rough sketch of last day events.

So, my theological position does not require that I reject the inspiration of Ellen White or the historical view adopted by the SDA church. Do you see how that can be true?

Mike,

Thanks so much for replying.

I think I understand where you are coming from. While you may not reject Ellen White's inspiration or the historical view, and I commend you for that, others will have a difficulty not doing so when these kind of points are made.

And if you watch carefully what some say about these issues, you'll notice that they do reject the historicist interpretation and Ellen White's inspiration. For example, trying to put the 42 months after the healing of the deadly wound because of alleged context negates Ellen White's statement that these same 42 months ended in 1798. Thus they reject the historicist interpreation and Ellen White's comments on it in favor of their futuristic theory. It wouldn't be so bad if they would stick with DUAL applications.

When I said what I did about your exegetical principles, did you understand what I meant? It's seems that much becomes quite indefinite. A particular passage may have a valid interpretation, but then there may be another equally valid interpretation, both being true. And the later one may not fit the passage exactly, and that is fine and to be expected. It seems to me that this kind of exegesis has the potential for creating a lot of confusion in the minds of many, even if it is perfectly clear in your own mind.

So back to Rev. 11:19. You see this verse referring to 1844 as well as the future.

I am curious. What do you make of the subsequent voices, thunders, lightning, earthquake, and great hail? Is this not the 2nd coming?

If you read GC's chapter, "God's People Delivered," it appears that maybe these subsequent things take place before the law is revealed in the heavens. If the law in the sky is revealed after the earthquake and the hail, how could seeing the ark before the earthquake and hail refer to seeing the law after the earthquake and hail? And if seeing the ark does not refer to seeing the law, what future event could it refer to?

This quote recently caught my attention Bob.

"The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. Not all in regard to this matter is yet understood, and will not be understood until the unrollling of the scroll." 8T p. 159.

Do you have any comments on whether in the last part of it Sister White is making a dual application? or any other comments?

Pickle, thank you for motivating me to stay active in this discussion. Sometimes I lose interest because it seems like we're getting nowhere, and then all of sudden you write something that rekindles my interest. So, thank you.

Yeah, I'm familiar with the ideas espoused by people who have an eye on the future but who unfortunately attempt to reapply the time portions of the prophecies (usually a day-for-a-day). In light of what it says in Rev 10:6, and what Ellen White has said about it, and common sense, I can't for the life of me figure out why they choose to disregard the counsel of a multitude of inspired students of the Word?

RE: Exegetical principles - While it is true that we must exercise extreme caution when applying the principles of dual application, we must not be afraid to strive for the truth, even if others have come short of the glory of God.

RE: Rev 11:19 - the voices, thunders, lighnings, etc., seems to occur a lot in the Revelation - chapters 4, 8, 11 and 16. Thus it would be difficult to base an argument as to how this or that part of prophecy should be interpreted in relationship to other parts.

RE: Multiple fulfillments - Personally I don't believe anything and everything can be made to fit a particular prophecy. I believe there are only two possible interpretations that can be right, all others must be wrong. There is only one correct historical application, and only one correct future application.

There is a funny phrase that goes like this - What could have been, should have been. I take this to mean that when Ellen White wrote (as early as the 1850's) - "Jesus could have come ere this..." is still a true statement. The idea that specific political situations must exist before Jesus can return is true, as long as we allow that those developments could have ripened at any time since shortly after 1844.

To say that God has an appointed day when He will return, and that therefore He couldn't have possibly returned before now, is under estimating the glory of God. The Lord is not waiting for a specific amount of time to lapse before He will return. There is no time prophecy, not even for God.

Just because God knows when He will return does not take away from the fact that He could have come ere this. What could have been, should have been - is true! This being the case, a key thought comes to mind. God is not waiting for a particular government, president, king, pope or anything else for the prophecies to be fulfilled. Apparently, if what Ellen White wrote is still true, any government, etc., since shortly after 1844, could have fulfilled the balance of prophecy.

If that was true then, it stands to reason that it's still true today. In other words, Jesus isn't waiting for certain church/state developments to ripen before He can come, since any governemnt since shortly after 1844 could have played the predicted part.

Which means no matter what is going on behind the scenes makes little difference, since it doesn't require years of covert action to bring about the sunday laws. In a matter of weeks, given the right economy crippling events, the USA could pass sunday laws almost over night, without any previous under the table deals and wrangling.

All of this suggests that God isn't waiting for the pastors and politicians to silently, unperceptibly slip some sneaky benign sunday cloaking moral law before He can come. But this begs the question - What is Jesus waiting for? Personally, I believe He is waiting for His remnant church members to understand and to experience the truth about righteousnes by faith - living without sin.

I might have deviated from the topic with that last bit of rambling, but what thinkest thou?

Mike, as long as the gift of prophecy is in the church, we should expect time prophecies. I understand Ellen White's statements to mean that time will never be a test.

I expect that when the latter rain is poured out, there will be prophets among us and that they will predict events, sometimes within a time frame.

Bob, when you have a moment, please comment on my last post. Thanks

I thought I once read somewhere that there wouldn't be any time prophecies beyond 1844?

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

You did. It's in Rev 10:6. "Time no longer" is referring to the time prophecies in Daniel and the Revelation. But like Mark wrote, that doesn't mean God will not issue another time prophecy through a last day prophet.

But to reapply the time elements of Daniel and the Revelation defies logic. The essence and nature of time disallows reapplying time prophecy. The start and stop aspect of time prophecy is locked into a specific place in history. As such it can never happen again.

Mark,

Sorry for the delay. I've been ill.

It appears that Ellen White used this type of expression, "scroll" and "unroll*", in several ways, though we have but a few examples. From 5 BC 1103.5 I get the idea that scroll could refer to any book, for in this reference it is a book used in the judgment.

In ST 6-24-97.1-2 it refers to the Bible.

It appears that the statement you refer to from 6T was first written on 2/3/1898, probably to Kellogg (8T 158, 159).

Contrast this with 6T 133, where it is said that we are the ones who are unrolling the scroll to the world. This sentence was part of a discourse given 10/21/1888 at Minneapolis (1888 133; by coincidence the same page number!).

Since the 6T 133 statement was written 10 years before the 6T 17 statement, assuming they are referring to the same thing, then the 6T 17 statement might mean that once we have finished taking the gospel to the world, we will understand more fully certain aspects of the matter regarding the mark of the beast.

That's the best I can do with it with speculating, and I try not to speculate.

I checked the Words of the Pioneers and Master Christian Library CDs to see if I could find any usage of the phrase, since perhaps Ellen White was using a common phrase. The only thing I turned up was Weymouth's translation of Rev. 10 which talked about a "scroll unrolled," but it wasn't published until 1903, 5 years after the statement was made.

[This message has been edited by Pickle (edited December 01, 2001).]

Mike,

This will be a short reply, since I have been ill and lack time right now.

As you can see from Mark's question to you, many don't stop where you stop. And why should they? What safeguards are there to keep them from going further?

If you feel free to propose second applications when specifications in the prophecies as they were written rule out such a possibility, specifications you say won't be part of future fulfillments, why can't they go further?

Some Lose Their Way

Those who start with dual applications often end with rejecting the historicist interpretation. As it has been brought out already somewhere here, since the vs. about the 42 months comes after the vs. dealing with the healing of the deadly wound, some wrongly conclude that the 42 months must be future and NOT past. There are those who wrongly deny that the 4 beasts of Daniel 7 are Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome because Dan. 7:17 says "shall arise." There are those who wrongly say that the ram and the goat can't be Persia and Greece because the passage says the vision is for "the time of the end."

More on Exegesis

No prophecy is of private interpretation, the Bible must interpret itself, etc.

If Revelation might have a fulfillment that doesn't meet all the specs of the prophecy, how are we to know if it is a fulfillment or not? Obviously, we have just ruled out the use of Scripture in the determination process. No Bible book written after Revelation tells us what specs are to be part of a future fulfillment and specs are not to be. I can't see how we can avoid private interpretations with such an approach.

So what are you suggesting that we use to determine whether an event is a future fulfillment? How can all God's people come into agreement that such and such was really a fulfillment?

Some might think that the historicist view of the trumpets was along the lines of a private interpretation. My paper, The Seven Trumpets of Revelation: Were the Later Reformers Right? attempts to show how letting the Bible interpret itself will cause us to arrive at the same conclusions that the reformers did.

We don't have to guess or speculate regarding the historicist view. What futurist view can we in similar fashion arrive at without speculating or guessing?

Lightnings, Thunders, Voices

I think it would be profitable to examine this further. Compare each usage in Revelation.

The first usage pictures voices, thunders, and lightning, but not hail or an earthquake, coming out of God's throne. This makes me think that these phenomena are associated with the voice of God.

The historicist view would have God's voice delivering His people at the 2nd coming connected with an earthquake and hail occurring in Rev. 8, 11, and 16. The historicist view can explain these verses. What explanation can a futurist view give?

Specifically, you suggested that the ark in Rev. 11:19 had to do with the 10 COmmandments in the sky at the second coming. Please give your idea of what the voices, thunders, lightning, earthquake, and hail would be in connection with that.

I'll examine your other thoughts later. God bless.

[This message has been edited by Pickle (edited December 01, 2001).]

Bob, about 20 years ago I had some questions on some of Ellen White's statements regarding the timing of the Investigative Judgment. I wondered why she put 1844 as the first time Jesus entered the Most Holy Place, when Hebrews seemed to make the ministry of Christ a transcendental event. It says in other places that Christ was offered from the foundation of the world. I never doubted her inspiration, and I deferred to her judgment as a better Bible scholar, but I was puzzled. Eventually, after about 7 years of searching I found the answers I was looking for, and because I never doubted her inspiration and deferred to her judgment, my faith in her inspiration is stronger than ever.

You seem to think that because I question some of our SDA assumptions that I am on the slippery slope. I appreciate your concern, and I don't think I can convince you otherwise about myself, but I have concerns for you. It looks like we'll have to disagree for now.

I haven't heard from the moderators on my Unfulfilled Fall Feasts thread. I am wondering if they would consider posting it in under the challenges to Adventism section. I apologize for miscalculating your reaction. Feel free to repost anything, for example my Practices of the Early Church thread, but hopefully any of my threads will meet the criteria of the challenges section.

[This message has been edited by Mark Shipowick (edited December 02, 2001).]

Mark,

I'm not sure I understand your reply. What bearing did it have on my response to your question regarding the meaning of "unrolling of the scroll"?

Ellen White never said that Jesus entered the Most Holy for the very first time in 1844, as far as I know. It is always possible that He went within the Most Holy sometime between its construction and 1844. But from AD 31 to 1844 His ministry was in the Holy.

His ministry being transcendental doesn't mandate that He be ministering in the Most Holy instead of the Holy prior to 1844.

I could be misunderstanding you, but I think you are saying that some of the above are SDA assumptions. This is quite incorrect. There is nothing assumed about it at all. Ellen White in vision saw Christ and the Father leave the Holy and enter the Most Holy in 1844.

What we have to do as much as possible is stand on a plain "Thus saith the Lord." We have such for these points.

I will tell you what I think is a slippery slope. Dick Winn blessed many people with his talks on family life, etc. In the spring of 1983 in Prophetic Guidance class at Weimar, he told us that Ellen White MIGHT have eatne squirrel on a camping trip, that she was wrong in her interpretation of certain verses in Is. 28, and that the phrase "testimony of Jesus" doesn't mean the gift of prophecy.

Today he is out of the church and divorced. Some say he questions the existence of God. Why? A former colleague of his told me that when he went off to get a PhD he got wowed by the theologians at that non-Adventist insitution.

It made sense to me. Long before the theologians got to him, he had given up his only defense, an unquestioning faith in what God has said through His prophets.

"It is written" is how Jesus combatted the devil successfully. The devil knows that if we give up faith in the Word and the Testimonies, it's only a matter of time before he's got us in his cruel clutches.

Where you stand on this question I do not know and I hesitate to judge. But if in discussing these matters either one of us persists in holding on to some personal opinion when the other has presented a clear, unequivocal statement from the Word or the Testimonies to the contrary, then we truly are in danger of at some point stumbling down a slippery slope.

I had a couple at a church I pastored who felt for sure that Christ didn't die in our place for our sins and that being saved by the blood is an idea from paganism. At some point after the gentleman interrupted thrice a sermon I preached with contrary ideas, the brethren at the conference office sat down with us. After the meeting was over, the brethren left, and this couple offered me additional material dealing with their views. I declined, for I already could spout off the stuff pretty well, having gone round and round about it for some time already. The gentleman's reply was that there then could be no harmony between us since I was not open minded.

I tried to tell them that I could never accept idea that contradicted clear, inspired statements. But they didn't seem to care about my conviction on this point.

I didn't realize it fully at the time, but Dick Winn was in to the same kind of theology as this couple.

I do not want to be deceived by Satan. Sure, God has blessed me with a good mind and a lot of knowledge. More than average. Nothing to boast about. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Nebuchadnezzar found that out.

But if I ever get to the point where I elevate some personal opinion of mine above what God has plainly said, I will be among the biggest, dumbest, stupidest fools there ever has been.

We are saved by faith. If we refuse to believe, how can we be saved?

Eve disbelieved. Her smarts were more than any of us, but they were no match for Satan when she let go of her hold on the Word of God. And the human race at that point became eternally lost.

Which touches on one point you brought up. Christ at that point pledged Himself to die in our place. For that reason, though He died not till 4000 years later, He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Adam and Eve were told that if they ate, they would die. They didn't die then. Gen. 3 & 4 implies that the sacrificial system started at that point, and that coats of skin were made from the slain animals to cover them.

And this was to teach us and them that it is the robe of the righteousness of Christ, provided through His death, that covers our nakedness.

Mike,

"What thinkest thou?" Sounded pretty good to me.

I like Ed Reid's idea, that God has set an outer limit for everything, and could end it sooner if the work was finished. And my understanding of that outer limit is that the Lord would bring to pass circumstances that would wrap things up. I can't fault the concept.

9/11 has gotten me thinking, though, that there have been certain things falling into place for the last 100 years. Maybe it's like conversion. Some conversions seem instantaneous, but are really a culmination of years of the Holy Spirit's work. Likewise, the final movements will be rapid, but there has been a lot of groundwork.

Take Protestantism's rejection of the Bible for one. In the 1880s and 1890s, they still believed, and so we could use the Bible to show them that Sunday was the wrong day. Now it's more difficult since we first have to prove to them that the Bible is trustworthy, that evolution is wrong, etc.

I believe that Christ can and will have a perfected people in the last days. Why? Because He said I would. And the only way that it can become a reality in my own life is by faith, by believing what God hath said. See my last post above for ramifications of this thought.

Pickle, thank you for those inspiring words about trusting in the prophetic utterances handed down to us from generation to generation. Indeed, we who are living in these last days are more than blessed with the Old and New testaments, and the Spirit of Prophecy. God forbid that I should deviate from so great a witness!

When a prophecy embraces two fulfillments it is understandable that the symbols must necessarily be flexible enough to accommodate both scenarios. For example, Isaiah 66:22-24 and Ezekiel 39:8-15:

Isaiah
66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Ezekiel
39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this [is] the day whereof I have spoken.
39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
39:10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down [any] out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the [noses] of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call [it] The valley of Hamongog.
39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
39:13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury [them]; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
39:14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
39:15 And the passengers [that] pass through the land, when [any] seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.

Who can argue that these prophecies will be fulfilled exactly like as described here? Obviously we are forced to modify these prophecies to reflect a future application. We can't throw them out altogether. Instead, we must interpret them according to the future view as described in the Revelation. Thus we must apply some details and ignore others, and so on.

This is what I believe we must do with the seals and the trumpets in the Revelation according to our marching orders in Rev 10:6 and 11. We must allow both applications to stand independently of each other. For example, if the white horse symbolizes the preaching of the gospel during the early rain in the first century, it stands to reason that it will symbolize preaching the 3AM's during the latter rain at the end of time.

The trumpets are another story - whereas historically the symbols taken from nature depict the fall of Rome, in future they must necessarily symbolize natural disasters associated with a catastrophic event. Just because the same symbols describe different situations does not mean that they contradict one another. They must be examined from two separate yet similiar scenarios.

At any rate, these things make sense to me. I don't expect everyone to agree. Besides the future is close enough that we'll all know the truth about it soon enough. In the meantime, I do not plan on abandoning my faith or accusing Ellen White of being a false prophet. I will toss my future musing before I do that.

Mike,

What specific part of the prophecy of Is. 66 do you think cannot be literally fulfilled?

Bob, I asked you earlier what you thought this quote meant:

"The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. Not all in regard to this matter is yet understood, and will not be understood until the unrolling of the scroll." 8T p. 159.

You replied with a speculation, but what about the context of her statement which is prophecy and the mark of the beast? Why can't her quote mean what it appears to mean. Mrs. White would have understood how this statement would be taken. She would have known that Adventist would think she was talking about the scrolls of Daniel and Revelation. That is her most likely meaning. The closest contending interpretation is a remote possibility at best. So, we have her endorsement of dual applications here again.

The concern I mentioned above that I have for you is that you want a certain outcome, and so you try to make the evidence fit the outcome. We all have that tendency. Henry VIII asked his court jester one time about the title “Defender of the Faith” that the Pope had just given him for his defense of Catholicism. (This title is still conferred on the reigning British monarch. As you might have guessed, the title was given before King Henry demanded a divorce from the Pope.) The jester replied something like, "Good heavens Harry, lets defend each other. The truth can defend itself!" This is an overstatement, but Sister White endorses the idea that we should avoid confrontational debate. Sharing our testimony is often more effective.

That was the motivation for my story above about my experience with Sister White. I wanted to say that I was thankful to God that He allowed me to question her position in a constructive way, testing her views against the Bible and being strengthened in my belief of both.

[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Mark,

I fail to see how my research on "unrolling the scroll" was speculative. In fact, I specifically said that that was all I could come up with without speculating.

quote:

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1 Kings 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

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Consider your reply. Using the same approach you took, someone could tell you that the dead can't be dead because of this verse.

What we have to do with both the Bible and the Testimonies is determine for certain what the words used by that particular author meant. One can easily show that nephesh means "life," etc., and that "life" is a more appropriate translation in this verse than "soul."

Likewise, we should avoid speculating what "unrolling the scroll" means. If it means the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, then please provide a passage where it obviously means such. The passage in question does not specify what is meant.

I admit that I am looking for a particular outcome. I am looking for further support of the interpretations of prophecy that the Holy Spirit through the prophets has stamped His approval upon. But we all do this to some extent. Probably you will catch yourself sometime looking for support for dual applications.

Thank you for sharing your testimony in the previous post.

What "SDA assumptions" were you speaking about?

Pickle wrote:

"What specific part of the prophecy of Is. 66 do you think cannot be literally fulfilled?"

I can't imagine that in the New Earth we will spend Sabbaths and New Moons viewing the burning remains of the unsaved. Nor can I imagine spending 7 months piling up their dead bodies, or spending 7 years burning their weapons of war to heat our houses.

How do you interpret these details?

Mike,

I profess ignorance on some points regarding this, but it is a fact that the "shall go forth" of Is. 66:24 is identical to the "shall go forth" of Mal. 4:2. Putting that with Mal. 4:3, it appears that Is. 66:24 and Mal. 4:2, 3 are talking about the same thing. So one passage speaks about carcasses, and the other speaks about ashes.

There are aspects of the final destruction that none of us understand yet. For instance, in what way are we to participate in the execution of the judgment (Ps. 149:9; EW 52)? I'm not sure that our assisting Jesus in the sentencing during the 1000 years qualifies as being part of the execution of the judgment written.

Pickle, the relationship between burning bodies and ashes seems fairly sequential, doesn't it? And yet, I do not anticipate it being that way in future. I suspect Jesus will restore the earth to it's original beauty before we venture out upon it's virgin surface. I do not expect to find the morbid remains of the unsaved as my wife and children and I take a Sabbath stroll through the countryside. "For the former things are passed away." Rev 21:4.

Which is why I cited these prophecies in the first place. In light of our dual application study I mostly wanted to point out that although conditional, prophecy is nonetheless inevitable. God's word will not return unto Him void. What He has spoken will eventually happen. Maybe not exactly according to every detail as originaly predicted, but nevertheless it will play out in principle.

Thus God's vision of how the scroll of history would unroll has evolved over time given the nature of His merciful methods and man's response. However, be that as it may, this world will eventually fill up their cup of indignation and God will withdraw the restraining influence of His Spirit, and then all hell will break lose.

Personally, I believe the seals and trumpets and plagues describe just how things will unfold when God allows holy and unholy angels to run with the ball of deliverance and destruction. Ellen White was also given a pretty graphic picture of that terrible time of devastation. Yet through it all the remnant of God's final generation of saints will vindicate the truth about God's law, love, government and character. Amen!

[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike,

I think we should be very hesitant to conclude as you have suggested.

Many prophecies were not fulfilled for years, leading the people to conclude that they never would be fulfilled as originally predicted, but they eventually were fulfilled to a "T."

Phineas was told at Baal-Peor that his lineage would be priests. But in Eli's time it was not so. Eli was told that his lineage would not be priests. Then Samuel judged Israel much more than 20 years (1 Sam. 7:2; PP 591). Then Saul reigned 40 years (Acts 13:21). Then David reigned 40 years (2 Sam. 5:4). Then Solomon removed Abiathar from being priest, and this fulfilled the prophecy against Eli's house (1 Kings 2:27).

So for over 100 years it was almost so but not so. And then it was so. "The Word of our God shall stand forever."

As far as sequential goes, I do not think that Is. 66:22-24 are describing sequential events. Vs. 24 I believe occurs before vs. 22.

Tell me, how do you think we shall be involved in the execution of the judgment, as Ps. 149 and EW 52 indicate? If we cannot explain this at this point, then we should not rule out the possibility that Is. 66:24 is speaking about whatever our responsibilities are in executing the judgment written.

quote:

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Thus God's vision of how the scroll of history would unroll has evolved over time given the nature of His merciful methods and man's response.

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Only under one condition.

The Lord God does NOTHING except He first reveals His secret to His servants the prophets. So if some true prophet has a vision or dream that says that aspects of the seals or trumpets will not be fulfilled as written, yes. But if no true prophet has such a vision or dream, a resounding NO, for God Himself has said that it can't be.

On the trumpets, could you please explain whether you believe that a future 6th trumpet will include two world-wide messages, as Rev. 10 indicates. Let's get specific about which parts of Rev. 10 you think will be future and which parts will not be. You have already said that the 2300 days which are unsealed there will not have a future fulfillment. What about the world-wide message based on them, as well as the bitter-sweet experience and the subsequent 2nd world-wide message?

Pickle, I guess I'm not quite willing to suggest that verse 24 chronologically precedes verse 22. In fact, I'm pretty much convinced that verse 24 will never happen. I just can't imagine God allowing us to walk around the dead ash bodies of the unsaved before He recreates the New Earth.

I read EW 52 I was unable to conclude that we assist God is executing the judgment upon the wicked. I read where we participate in the investigative phase of judging the unsaved during the millennium, but I did not read where we help God deploy fire from heaven to destroy them after the millennium. Here's a quote from EW 54:

"Then the wicked saw what they had lost; and fire was breathed from God upon them and consumed them. This was the execution of the judgment. The wicked then received according as the saints, in unison with Jesus, had meted out to them during the one thousand years. The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth. The broken, ragged mountains melted with fervent heat, the atmosphere also, and all the stubble was consumed. Then our inheritance opened before us, glorious and beautiful, and we inherited the whole earth made new. We all shouted with a loud voice, "Glory; Alleluia!"

I also failed to find where Ellen White describes the saved walking among the ashes of the unsaved before Jesus recreates the earth. And I also did not read where we will pile up the bodies of the unsaved for 7 months and burn their weapons of war to heat our homes for 7 years. Thus I'm forced to doubt whether these particular details of the OT restoration promises will be fulfilled in future.

Concerning the 6th trumpet, Rev 10, the bitter-sweet experience, and the two world wide messages: I have summarized my thoughts in the thread under Search for Truth entitled "Separate yetr similiar views of Prophecy." Here's an excerpt:

SEVEN TRUMPETS
Historical Application. Historically the seven trumpets (Revelation 8-11) symbolize the gradual fall of Western and Eastern Rome, the Ottoman Empire, and the investigative judgment. Note the following brief summary:

The Conquest of Western Rome by:
1. Alaric the Goth
2. Genseric the Vandal
3. Attila the Hun
4. Odoacer the Heruli

The Ottoman Empire:
5. Subjugates Eastern Rome for 150 years (1299-1449)
6. Conquers Eastern Rome (1449)
(a) Collapses 391 years and 15 days later (11 August 1840)

The Heavenly Sanctuary:
7. Judgment of the Unsaved
(a) Investigative
(b) Millennial
(c) Executive

Future Application. In future the seven trumpets may symbolize events which transpire after the close of probation. See Revelation 8:2-5. When the “angel” (Jesus) finishes the inves-tigative judgment of the living He will declare – “It is done” (Revelation 21:6). His work accomplished Jesus, who had been facing the ark of the covenant, will turn around and with “golden censer” in hand leave the most holy place.
Passing through the holy place on His way to earth Jesus “came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer… and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth” Revelation 8:3,5. “Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while He was in the most holy place were placed upon Satan, the originator of sin, who must suffer their punishment.” Early Writings, page 280.

Once probation closes the trumpets and plagues will wreak havoc. “Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth.” 7BC, page 982. How long will it last? “And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood. Then Jesus . . . took His place on the cloud which carried Him to the East, where it first appeared to the saints on earth--a small black cloud which was the sign of the Son of man. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the East, which took a number of days, the synagogue of Satan worshipped at the saint's feet.” Maranatha, page 287.

The first four trumpets seem to describe an oceanic asteroid impact. The fifth and sixth trumpets may symbolize the reactions of the unsaved when they realize they have been deceived and are lost forever. And the seventh trumpet probably describes the moment God reveals the Ten Commandments. “… the clouds sweep back, and the starry heavens are seen, unspeakably glorious in contrast with the black and angry firmament on either side. The glory of the celestial city streams from the gates ajar. Then there appears against the sky a hand holding two tables of stone folded together. Says the prophet: ‘The heavens shall declare His righteousness: for God is judge Himself.’ Psalm 50:6.” The Great Controversy, page 639.

SEVEN THUNDERS
Historical Application. Historically the seven thunders (Revelation 10) were fulfilled during the Millerite movement. “The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must neces-sarily be tested. In the order of God most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work. This is represented by the angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer.” 7BC, page 971.

Future Application. In future the Remnant Church will once again endure the bitter-sweet experience that attends the proclamation of the three angels’ messages. See Revelation 10.

“In this time of persecution the faith of the Lord's servants will be tried. They have faithfully given the warning, looking to God and to His word alone. God's Spirit, moving upon their hearts, has constrained them to speak. Stimulated with holy zeal, and with the divine impulse strong upon them, they entered upon the performance of their duties without coldly calculating the consequences of speaking to the people the word which the Lord had given them.

“They have not consulted their temporal interests, nor sought to preserve their reputation or their lives. Yet when the storm of opposition and reproach bursts upon them, some, overwhelmed with consternation, will be ready to exclaim: ‘Had we foreseen the consequences of our words, we would have held our peace.’ They are hedged in with difficulties. Satan assails them with fierce temptations. The work which they have undertaken seems far beyond their ability to accomplish. They are threatened with destruction. The enthusiasm which animated them is gone; yet they cannot turn back. Then, feeling their utter helplessness, they flee to the Mighty One for strength. They remember that the words which they have spoken were not theirs, but His who bade them give the warning. God put the truth into their hearts, and they could not forbear to proclaim it...

“As the opposition rises to a fiercer height, the servants of God are again perplexed; for it seems to them that they have brought the crisis. But conscience and the word of God assure them that their course is right; and although the trials continue, they are strengthened to bear them. The contest grows closer and sharper, but their faith and courage rise with the emergency. Their testimony is: ‘We dare not tamper with God's word, dividing His holy law; calling one portion essential and another nonessential, to gain the favor of the world. The Lord whom we serve is able to deliver us. Christ has conquered the powers of earth; and shall we be afraid of a world already conquered?’” The Great Controversy, page 608-610.

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

I've also posted a detailed description of Revelation 9 under Search for Truth entitled "Does Rev 9 have a future application?"

Mike and Bob,
I’ve puzzled over Isaiah 66 and Ezekiel 39 for quite a while – for some years in fact. The reason I’m still undecided are the points that Bob has made. But I think Mike that your explanation is the better of the two.

Your approach is consistent with other conditional prophecies such as the doom that Jonah pronounced on Nineveh. The judgment eventually came, but not exactly as Jonah foretold.

If your position is right Mike, it would explain how Ps. 149 should be interpreted.

Mike,

Saints Execute Judgment

quote:

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At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. (EW 52)

Let the saints be joyful in glory: .... Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; ... To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. (Ps. 149:5-9)

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So both the Bible and the Testimonies say we will be involved in the EXECUTION of the judgment. Please explain how this cannot possibly be what Is. 66:24 is talking about. Alternately, since no prophecy is of any private interpretation, please provide a "Thus saith the Lord" that says that Is. 66:24 will never be fulfilled.

Two World-Wide Messaages

Thank you for the explanation of your understanding.

I'm not sure you answered the question, though you did in part. If the bitter-sweet experience has to do with the giving of the 3 angels' messages, what does the 2nd world-wide message have to do with? The last verse says we are to prophesy again.

And if the trumpets occur after the close of probation like you suggest, why would we still be giving the 3 angels' messages then? And why would we need a 2nd world-wide message after the close of probation?

Asteroid Impact

It would seem that the only way to justify such an interpretation is to take everything literally.

What do trumpets blowing have to do with an asteroid? When talking about military conquest, they could be calls to war. Or they could be reformatory messages accompanying the military judgments. What would they have to do with an asteroid? Please back up your answer with Scripture.

What I mean is that we can show Scriptures that connect trumpets with calls to war or reformatory messages. Can we do the same for whatever answer you provide?

Voices, Thunders, Lightnings, Earthquake, (Hail)

I don't recall your explaining what these things in Rev. 8:5 (historicist and futurist) and 11:19 (historicist and futurist) were. Please explain, and please be specific. Please show how they can't be only talking about when the voice of God delivers His people.

Mark,

It would seem difficult to make Ps. 149:9 a conditional prophecy when EW 52 seems to indicate that it is not. True, it doesn't say that "they will execute the judgment written after the 1000 years." Instead it says that "they will not then execute the judgment written The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the 1000 years." But it seems to mean the same.

And the meaning of 7 months burying? Ugh!

quote:

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Ezekiel 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

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It is this verse that makes it hard for me to accept the idea that Ezekiel 38 and 39 are just conditional prophecies. Got any suggestions for this verse?

Pickle, the rest of that EW 52 quote reads:

"Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the one thousand years."

My interpretation of this quote is that they of "they will not then execute the judgment" is referring to "God and the Lamb." Will the saints participate in executing the unsaved in the lake of fire? Or will they only witness it?

Romans 12:19 says, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." This promise does not say, We will repay. If we're going to quote Psalm 149 and apply it to the punishment of the unsaved after the millennium, then don't you think we should also include passages like Ezekiel 9?

9:1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man [with] his destroying weapon in his hand.
9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them [was] clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar.
9:3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which [had] the writer's inkhorn by his side;
9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
9:6 Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which [were] before the house.
9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
9:8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

The second world-wide message, from what I've studied, is a repetition of the 3AM's during the MOB crisis (only this time without the mistakes made during the Millerite Movement).

From a future point of view, it is obvious the bitter-sweet experience occurs before the close of probation. The fact Rev 10 is sandwiched between the 6th and 7th trumpets does not force us to follow a strict chronology, not any more so than other places in the Revelation where a strict chronology is not followed.

The blowing of trumpets are also used to conduct military compaigns. The are used to issue orders during the heat of the battle. Just like Moses holding up his staff during the battle.

I believe Rev 8:5 attends the words spoken by Jesus, "It is done" (Rev 21:6 and 22:11) when probation closes. And that Rev 11:19 attends the words spoken by Jesus, "It is done" (Rev 16:17) when the 7th plague is poured out.

Mike,

It appears from EW 52 that they must refer to the "saints." If not, the pronoun it should have been used to refer to the "wrath of God and the Lamb."

The point of the statement is that the "wrath" destroys the wicked at the second coming, and the saints have no part in any execution of the wicked until after the 1000 years.

That answers your question about Ezek. 9. EW 52 is explicit that the saints do nothing of the sort during the time of trouble, so the beings in Ezekiel 9 must be angels.

My understanding is that the historicist understanding of the 2nd world-wide message is THE 3rd angel's message.

In discussing Rev. 10 and 11, it is a different situation chronologically than much of the rest of the book. Rev. 8:13; 9:12; 11:14; and 10:7 indicate that 10:1-11:14 occur in the context of the 6th trumpet. This is a crucial point. So at the very least, the second world-wide message must commence after the 6th trumpet has begun to blow.

In what way would trumpets issuing orders during battle be connected to an asteroid impact? Additionally, if there is only one asteroid impact, which trumpet pictures it? Is the burning mountain the asteroid, or is the falling star the asteroid? Then what causes the fire and hail mingled with blood to fall upon the earth if the asteroid isn't until the 2nd or 3rd trumpet?

It appears from 20MR 221.4 that Rev. 11:19 has something to do with the display of the law in the sky as well as with 1844 (GC 433). So there is support for your thoughts on the meaning of the temple being opened and the ark being seen.

If the close of probation is followed by voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake, could you please explain what this might mean? GC discusses these things in relation to the 2nd coming, but I'm not sure how to think about them in relation to the close of probation.

Pickle, can you show from other references where Ellen White emphatically teaches that the saints will actively assist God in destroying the unsaved in the lake of fire?

Please read the study on the Asteroid posted in Search for Truth, and then tell me what you think, okay?

Can you quote that 20 MS 221.4 statement you mentioned? I don't have them on my computer software. Thank you.

God shows the saved during the 1,000 years why so and so is not here as well as why so and so is here.

If I saw Hitler here, I would want to know why in the same way there will be those who will be surprised to see the apostle Paul there and will also want to know why.

Then, if I expected to see so and so there, and so and so wasn't there, I would want to know why.

This is our part in all this judgment process which ends with the wicked being destroyed in the lake of fire with our sad acceptance of God's righteous judgment. Sad because we, like God, would not relish anybody being eternally destroyed.

Daryl,

A quick reply, and I'll reply to Mike later.

The ideas you expressed are common, yet I have never read in the SOP this explanation. From EW (pp. 52-53) to GC 1888 and 1911 (pp. 660-661), the only idea expressed is that we shall sentence the wicked in unison with Jesus.

This makes sense. 1 Cor. says we shall judge angels and the world, but not before the time. Now if all we are doing is getting our questions answered about whether the Judge did right, then we are not judging the condemned; we are judging the Judge. But 1 Cor. says we shall judge angels and the world.

The only part of the judgment left is the sentencing, how many stripes the wicked will get. If we are to judge, then we must participate in the sentencing. Thus EGW has a good biblical basis for the statements she makes on the matter.

Yet today most Adventists don't know what she said we will be doing during the 1000 years, and instead think we will be doing what she is totally silent about. So while our questions will get answered, this will be the result of our judging rather than the judging itself.

I think it's Rom. 16:20 where it says that Satan will be crushed beneath our feet. How? 1) Our sins are transferred to him as the scapegoat. 2) We participate in deciding the amount of punishment he will receive.

While we may experience intense sorrow at the destruction of the wicked, it is also true that we will abhor them (Is. 66:24); hold them in contempt (Dan. 12:2); consider Satan a terror (Ezek. 28:19); and abhor him (GC 670); and all the wicked will be "covered with infamy" as "they sink into" "oblivion" (GC 544).

Inspiration doesn't give us a pretty picture of the matter.

Yes, abhor the sin, but not the sinner, as God Himself hates or abhors the sine but still loves the sinner.

For God so loved the world........

I will also need to do more research on what goes on during the 1,000 years.

Daryl,

I was studying with an agnostic/atheist. We were going over the Prophecy Seminar lessons and read Dan. 12:2. He said, "That doesn't sound Christian." I thought, "What?"

I had never really realized what it said: "Many that sleep in the dust shall arise, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." So I did some study on the matter.

Then I discovered that the word for "contempt" is the same as the word for "abhorring" in Is. 66:24, "They shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

I'll be interested to hear of the results of your study.

Mike,

I don't know of any other statements in the SOP connecting the saints with the execution of the judgment. The one about Satan being bruised under our feet could be explained in the ways I suggested without involving the saints in the execution of the judgment. I have never made a study to see what other verses might suggest it other than Ps. 149.

I'll look at your asteroid material and get back with you.

Here's the statment from 20MR.

quote:

---

These men have grown gray in service. Not long hence they will receive their reward. Writing of the last days, John says: "The nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

When God's temple in heaven is opened, what a triumphant time that will be for all who have been faithful and true. In the temple will be seen the ark of the testament in which were placed the two tables of stone, on which are written God's law. These tables of stone will be brought forth from their hiding place, and on them will be seen the ten commandments engraved by the finger of God. These tables of stone now lying in the ark of the testament will be a convincing testimony to the truth and binding claims of God's law. (20MR 221 (Lt. 47, 1902))

---

Perhaps Rev. 11:19 specifically refers to 1844 as far as the temple being opened is concerned, and in the second paragraph EGW was writing about another time when the temple is opened which will not be a re-fulfillment of that verse. The reason I suggest this is that it is possible that the wording of 11:19 prompted thoughts of "scenes similar," and that it was these similar scenes which she then went on to talk about.

You will probably wish to view this as a picture of dual fulfillments. If we go that route, we will probably need to have the historicist and futurist interpretations ending at the same time, at the second coming (voices, thunderings, lightnings, earthquake, & great hail).

This is the only quote I've been able to come up with that could be taken as support for a futurist interpretation. Consider the others on the historicist side:

quote:

---

As foretold in the Scriptures, the ministration of Christ in the most holy place began at the termination of the prophetic days in 1844. To this time apply the words of the Revelator, "The temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament."[1 REV. 11:19] ... As Christ entered there, to minister in the sinner's behalf, the inner temple was opened, and the ark of God was brought to view. (4SP 273) (1884)

The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament." Revelation 11:19. The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," this apartment was opened only upon the great Day of Atonement for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement. Those who by faith followed their great High Priest as He entered upon His ministry in the most holy place, beheld the ark of His testament. (GC 433) (1888, 1911)

But the Lord gave me a view of the heavenly sanctuary. The temple of God was opened in heaven, and I was shown the ark of God covered with the mercy seat. (1T 76) (Looks like vision of 04-03-47 (LS15 100, 101)

When the temple of God was opened in heaven, John saw in holy vision a class of people whose attention was arrested and who were looking with reverential awe at the ark, which contained the law of God. The special test upon the fourth commandment did not come until after the temple of God was opened in heaven. (2T 693)

Christ says, "I know thy works; behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it." How hard men work to close that door; but they are not able. John's testimony is, "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament." Beneath the mercy-seat, within the ark, were the two tables of stone, containing the law of Jehovah. God's faithful ones saw the light that shone forth to them from the law, to be given to the world. And now Satan's intense activity is to close that door of light; but Jesus says that no man can shut it. Men will turn from the light, denounce it, and despise it, but it still shines forth in clear, distinct rays to cheer and bless all who will see it. (RH 8-25-85)

The vision given to Isaiah represents the condition of God's people in the last days. They are privileged to see by faith the work that is going forward in the heavenly sanctuary. "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament." As they look by faith into the holy of holies, and see the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, they perceive that they are a people of unclean lips,--a people whose lips have often spoken vanity, and whose talents have not been sanctified and employed to the glory of God. (RH 12-22-96)

In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," the holy of holies was opened only upon the great day of atonement, the typical day of judgment, set apart for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement, "The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament," points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, at the end of the twenty-three hundred days,--in 1844,--as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement. Those who by faith followed their great High Priest, as he entered upon his ministry in the most holy place, beheld the ark of the testament. (RH 11-09-05)

"And the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament."

In holy vision John saw a door opened in Heaven. It is the arm of Almighty Power that has opened this door, and no man can shut it. Through this open door is revealed the temple of God, in the Most Holy Place of which is the ark, and in this ark is the law of ten commandments, written with the finger of God on tables of stone. (ST 05-05-87)

Thank God to-day that there is an open door which Satan and his agents may seek in vain to close. The arm of Almighty Power
has opened this door, and no other power can close it. John in holy vision saw a door opened in heaven. "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament." Looking down the stream of time, the prophet sees a people whose attention is directed to that open door, and then to the ark within, which contains the commandments of God. (PrT 11-03-85)

John writes concerning scenes that have to do with our own time. He says, "The temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament." That ark contains the tables whereon is engraven the law of God. On the Isle of Patmos, John beheld in prophetic vision the people of God, and saw that at this time the attention of the loyal and true followers of Christ would be attracted to the open door of the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary. He saw that by faith they would follow Jesus within the veil where he ministers above the ark of God containing his immutable law. (ST 04-22-89)

Influences are to be set in motion that will proclaim to the world the first, second, and third angels' messages. The time has come of which John writes, "The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament, and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail" [Rev. 11:19]. "The ark of His testament"--[this ark contains] the two tables of stone upon which are written, with the finger of God, the ten commandments. The ark is a symbol of the presence of God. In clear, steady rays, the light shines from it to the world.

The time has come when the law of God is to be proclaimed with strong, decided utterance. The world is to be warned, and I beseech those who know the truth to do all in their power to sound the warning, "Prepare to meet thy God." The temple of God was opened in heaven in answer to the prayers of His people, and by terrible things in righteousness will He reveal His power. (18MR 187) (Ms. 166, 1902)

In the Revelation, John says, "The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament." Rev. 11:19. John saw in vision the Lord's people looking for His coming and searching for truth. As the temple of God was opened unto His people, the light of the law of God, which was in the ark, shone forth. Those who receive this light are brought to view in the proclamation of the third angel's message. (4BC 1152) (Ms. 48, 1900)

---

That's 12 on the historicist side. I hope I culled out all the duplicates.

It would appear that the idea of the temple being opened in 1844 was a major point in the early days of our church. It also appears that the final test Could not come until after the temple was opened (2T 693).

Pickle, thank you for the 20 MR 221 quote. It certainly does sound like she's reapplying the 7th trumpet to the day when God will hold open the two tables of stone.

But I'm not so sure we have to conclude that the historical view won't reach its complete fulfillment until then. At least I doubt we can use the 20 MR 221 quote to establish that idea.

Also, there's another place where she clearly places the trumpets in future along side the plagues. "Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded; vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth.--3SM 426 (1890). {LDE 238.1}

Between these two quotes it doesns't seem to far fetched to say that Ellen White did not condemn a dual application of the trumpets. However, it is also plain to see that the bulk of her prophetic interpretations focused on explaining the historical view.

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Bob, regarding the question of how we should apply Ezek. 39, it says in Psalms that God is enthroned on the praises of Israel. There is a profound spiritual truth here. In Revelation 4 and 5 we have an expansion of this thought in the form of a word picture. When the Lamb takes the seven-sealed scroll from the Father’s hand, at that moment the 24 elders kneel before God in adoration and praise as Christ takes his position on the throne as judge and king with the Father. In a very real sense, Christ is enthroned on the praises of Israel. Spiritual Israel is pictured for us here in the person of the 24 elders – the representatives of the church.

In the same way, when the saints during the millennium sit with Christ on His throne and judge the unsaved, their participation in the judgment links them to its execution. The praise of the saints links them to God’s sovereignty. The concurrence of the saints in judgment links them to God’s wrath. The saint will not need steel and brawn to carry out the sentence. They will reign with Christ on His throne. The breath of God that consumes the wicked has the force the saints behind it who have concurred with God.

Where the seven months of Ezekiel 39 fits in, I am still not sure. Above I said that I think Mike has explained it fairly well, but I am leaning toward the view now that this part of the prophecy may well have a real, spiritual fulfillment at the execution of the judgment. We tend to think that anything that is not physical is less real, but in the scriptures the great realities are spiritual. So, when the Bible speaks of leaves on the tree of life that heal the nations, we can be sure that they bring lasting values – emotional and spiritual soundness, not primarily physical health. In the same way, burying the bodies for seven months could well have a spiritual significance that exceeds physical burial. The ancient Jews may have understood the significance of this passage as well or better than we do. Many no doubt knew the cleansing ritual prescribed in the law after contact with the dead pointed to spiritual realities. The ritual explained how the saints become defiled by the association and influence of the spiritual “cadavers” they must deal with on a daily basis. And it explained in parable form how they must be cleansed.

The religious Hebrew year spanned 7 months. It began two weeks before Passover and ended one week after the Feast of Tabernacles. All of the religious festivals occurred during the seven sacred months. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that this calendar is not still in effect. On the contrary, there are a number of passages that refer to this calendar and some of its festivals in the new earth. (But that is another topic.) Perhaps it will take one religious cycle after the execution of the judgment to normalize the situation in the new earth. It says in the Bible that the former things will be forgotten, but it may take a year of forgetting before the saints are cleansed of the painful memories of perishing loved ones. God is a gentleman. He’ll no doubt give us time to heal.

One thought in closing: If the saint will judge their piers and participate in executing them in the future, doesn’t that highlight the need to be faithful in our responsibilities to maintain church order today. How can we execute someone, blotting them out of existence eternally, if they are in that condition partly because we dealt unfaithfully with them here when they fell into open sin? Genuine love will if possible snatch a brother out of the fire.

Mike,

If I ever ignore or forgot what you have said, please bring it to my attention.

I'm not sure why you say that LDE 238 "clearly places the trumpets in the future" after I have repeatedly pointed out that this could refer to a repetition of the reformatory messages that attended the military judgments without a repetition of those military judgments. In the light of this fact, no one can say that LDE 238 clearly says that the judgments of the trumpets will be repeated.

Regarding the historical view of Rev. 11:19, what inspired statement do you have to show that the voices, etc., occur before the 2nd coming?

It appears from another thread that you place the trumpets after the close of probation. This brings us back to my question, what two world-wide messages will occur in connection with the 6th trumpet after the close of probation?

Regarding the asteroid stuff on the other thread, how many asteroid impacts are we talking about? I still have the same questions. Does it hit during the 2nd or 3rd trumpet? Then what causes the 1st trumpet?

Mark,

Interesting thoughts. You may be correct in regard to how we participate in the execution of the judgment. Our participating in the sentencing is the only thing we are told about, and this may be how we participate in the execution. You may be right.

And the need to be careful how we treat others now in the light of our future responsibilities is a point well taken.

I'll ponder your suggestion on the 7 months.

To suggest that the "seven years" and the "seven months" of Ezekiel 39 were metaphorical from the moment they were recorded, and that they never were supposed to happen literally, is something I hadn't considered.

How can we know when one part of a prophecy should be taken the way it reads, and when another part should be taken metaphorically? What is it about Eze 39 that indicates we cannot take the 7 years and 7 months literally when considered from the historical position? That is, if it had been fulfilled during the Jewish dispensation shortly after their Babylonian captivity?

Pickle, I realize you believe LDE 238 cannot possible mean that Ellen White envisioned a future application of the trumpets. I guess I choose to interpret her statement literally the way it reads.

That Rev 11:19 is fulfilled before the second advent seems to be true for both the historical and the future views. From the historical position we believe it was fulfilled in 1844. In this case the "lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail" do not refer to things that happened on earth, but rather to things that happened in vision, possibly to emphasize the importance of the investigative judgment.

From a future application of Rev 11:19 these signs would correspond with the 7th plague. The inspired statements I use to support this view comes from the way I interpret the trumpets. And I have already shared those thoughts. Also, I appeal to the LDE 238 and 20 MR 221 in support of these views.

RE: the two fold messages - As I see it, from a future point of view, Rev 10 thru 11:14 describe events that happen outside the ongoing chronology of the trumpets to introduce developments whose impact culminates during the trumpets. Even from the historical angle Rev 11:1-14 jumps back in time to describe events that led up to the 7th trumpet. Rev 16:13-16 does the same thing.

Thus I don't see a problem, from a future angle, with a repetition of the 3AM's during the MOB crisis. And the fact it is sandwiched between the 6th and 7th trumpets isn't a problem either. And the idea that only the first two of the 3AM's were fulfilled during the Millerite Movement isn't consistent with the messages they preached during that time. They believed that all the prophecies were being fulfilled because they believed that the end of time would terminate in 1844.

I realize Ellen White wrote in the GC that the first two messages were preached until 1844 and that the third angel's message began to be preached after the Sabbath message was rediscovered. But history records the Millerites preaching all three messages. Besides, since they got all but the date wrong it stands to reason that the commission to "prophesy again" must necessarily include all three messages. Only this time the final generation of remnant saints would repeat the 3AM's during the MOB crisis without the former mistakes made by the Millerites.

RE: the asteroid - I got most of the facts I shared in the asteroid study from the NASA website. They are able to verify their findings regarding the various impact sites around the world due to the heavey presence of asteroid fragments at each location. Where I live here in Flagstaff Arizona there's a world famous tourist site called Meteor Crater. There is no douobt that the crater was formed by an asteroid impact.

The one thing that scientists get confused about when they interpret all these huge crater sites around the world is when they happened. That it did happen is not the problem, just when they believe it happened. All of those mass extinction events had to happen at the time of the flood, since that's the only time in earth's history when mass extinction occurred.

When will the asteroid in Rev 8 impact earth? As the above mentioned study suggests heat preceding the asteroid would generate field and forest fires before impact. The main asteroid would impact the ocean floor during the second trumpet. For the third trumpet, either a fragment from the main asteroid or a second asteroid would interact with the atmosphere in such a way that fresh water would be contaminated.

At any rate, it all makes perfect sense to me. Whether or not it will all play out like suggested in this study is yet to be seen. In the meantime, the most important thing to remember is to stay connected to Christ.

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike,

You are misunderstanding me. I have not said that LDE 238 cannot possibly mean that there is a future application of the trumpets in and of itself. What I have said is that taking it literally, it does not mandate such. All it mandates is that trumpets be sounded. It does not mandate that the judgments that followed the sounding of the 7 trumpets be repeated.

Do you understand what I mean? Take the verse that says that the child's soul came back into him. Someone may say that that is proof that we have immortal souls. You show them that nephesh can mean life. Therefore, though they may still believe in immortal souls, they can no longer use that text as unequivocal proof for their position, since it really doesn't prove anything.

Likewise, LDE 238 doesn't say that a burning mountain will be cast into the sea. All it says is that trumpets will be sounded. And since old controversies will be repeated, this may be all the statement means. So LDE 238 cannot be used to prove future applications of the judgments of the trumpets. All it may prove is future repetitions of old reform messages.

Rev. 11:14 seems to put Rev. 10 & 11:1-13 in the 6th trumpet. Unlike this, we do not have "the 6th plague is over" mentioned after the kings are gathered to Armageddon. We do not have "the sixth seal is over" after the great multitude stand before the throne. Do we have anything in Revelation that is similar to "the second woe is past" that would support your suggestion? Can we demonstrate that Revelation puts in an intermission at the end of a description of something, and then after that intermission says that that something is now over?

History does not record that the Millerites preached the 3rd angel's message before 1844. They did preach that the judgment would come at the end of the 2300 days (they got more than the date right). They did preach that the Protestant churches had become Babylon. But they knew nothing about the identity of the mark, so they could not warn people against receiving it. Miller didn't even think that the 1st beast of Rev. 13 was the papacy, if I recall correctly.

Taking this into consideration, there is no reason to conclude that Ellen White was wrong in the GC when she wrote, as you have pointed out, that the 3rd angel's message began after 1844.

Do you have a URL for the asteroid info? I would be interested in seeing if they can demonstrate that certain impacts were made by material foreign to earth. EGW's explantion in PP would necessitate that the impacts at at least some sites be made by boulders that formed part of the crust of the earth.

If the judgment that followed the sounding of the 1st trumpet will be the result of heat from an approaching asteroid, 1) how long would there be between the impact of the heat and the impact of the asteroid? 2) Would such heat be accompanied by hail and blood? That's what we have to have: hail and fire mingled with blood falling upon a third of the earth.

Mark & Mike,

On Ezekiel 38 and 39: The burning of the weaponry for 7 years seems to denote a huge force. But can it be taken literally?

If we have only 100,000 Israelites in the land burning the weaponry for heat and for cooking food, and if every 100 use 1 cord of wood every year, then we are talking about 7,000 cords of wood burned in 7 years.

How many soldiers would Gog have to have in order to leave behind 7,000 cords of wood composed of spears, bows, arrows, shields, etc.?

We must take the Bible literally unless there is an obvious symbol used. Can we take this literally? Could this have ever literally happened?

I don't know. I'm wondering out loud. For one thing, I don't know how much wood is needed in Palestine to keep warm and to cook. This would be a key component of a potential answer.

Pickle, I enjoyed your musing about whether or not 7,000 cords of weapons grade firewood would be left behind by the enemy. It reminded me of the people who wonder if there was enough room on Noah's Ark to house and feed 2 pairs of all the unclean species of animals, and 7 pairs of all the clean species.

I don't have the website for the NASA page where I got the information. Daryl gave it to me a long time ago. I do have a collection of articles from various magazines which say basically the same thing.

These sites are good:

http://www.es.ucsc.edu/~asphaug
http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/

[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Pickle, are you willing to apply the same logic to the plagues that you do to the trumpets in LDE 238? Seems to me she links them together.

Mike,

When we talk about the biblical account of the Flood, we're talking about an historical account. Ezekiel 38-39 is a prophecy rather than an historical account, so it is a little different.

Still, the questions remain about the quantity of wood needed to heat and cook by a hypothetical population of a restored Israel for 7 years, and the hypothetical size of Gog's army required to provide that amount of wood. If someone can come up with some good, solid numbers, it would be helpful, for even if we take it all literally, at least we would know better what we are talking about.

On asteroids, http://gdcinfo.agg.nrcan.gc.ca/crater/paper/index_e.html proves very helpful. It demonstrates how tied to evolution the idea of asteroid impacts really is.

For one thing, if the earth is 4.5 billion years old, evolutionists have a problem explaining why there are craters on the moon and not on earth. This is probably one of the biggest driving forces toward identifying such craters on earth.

Secondly, as the article points out, it was only in 1980 that some suggested that impacts were a factor in Earth's "recent" geologic history. This idea was promoted in order to explain sediment at the Cretaceous-Tertiary boundary, and thus try to explain why the dinosaurs all vanished without having to invoke the biblical Flood.

150 impact craters have been "identified." That means we should see such one impact crater form roughly every 40 years. And that's not taking into account the assumption that most of the impact craters on earth have disappeared because of erosion, etc.

So it seems much better for the believing Adventist Christian to explain most alleged asteroid impact craters by using EGW's PP statement about huge boulders being shot hundreds of feet into the air at the Flood, and sinking deep into the earth upon impact.

Otherwise it can get messy. How can you have an asteroid impact putting sediment world-wide at the Cretaceous-Tertiary boundary? So in the middle of the Flood after most of the geologic column had already been deposited, an asteroid hit the big soup? And the muck traveled around the world? And then the rest of the layers of the geologic column were deposited on top?

I suppose it's possible, but I don't think we need to swallow wholeheartedly theories about asteroid impacts concocted by men and women who refuse to believe a plain "Thus saith the Lord."

The crater by you at Flagstaff, is it at all possible that it was caused by a huge chunk of rock blown out of the bedrock by waters gushing out of the earth from 7-10 miles down? Do those at the center say that it had to happen at a certian point in the geologic column?

[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: Pickle ]

Mike,

On the plagues, good question.

Two points can be brought up. #1: 3SM 391 tells us that sprinklings of the vials of God's wrath have already fallen. 5T 212 has a similar statement. What this tells us is that there is more than just seven vials and seven plagues. Likewise, there are more than just seven trumpets. The last trump at which the dead are raised might be able to be called the 8th trumpet, for it can't be one of the 7.

#2: The 7 trumpets are associated with the judgments that follow, but they aren't identical to those judgments. The closest to this that we can come is to say that the trumpets call for the judgments to come. So the second judgment is a burning mtn. cast into the sea, etc., but the 2nd trumpet is something the angel blows.

In contrast, the vials contain the 7 last plagues. I guess someone could make the same distinction, but it would mean little. "The vials contain the plagues, but they aren't the plagues." So?

So the distinction can be helpful in considering the trumpets, but it means nothing when considering the plagues.

Pickle, it looks as though you are skeptical as to whether or not asteroids played a part in destroying the earth at the time of the Flood. And it's doubly clear you are unwilling to allow for the possibility that the trumpets depict an oceanic asteroid impact. And it looks as though you cannot imagine LDE 238 and 20 MR 221 placing the trumpets in future with the plagues.

On the other hand, I am next to convinced of the opposite. I think we pretty well covered this topic. Are there any other dual applications that you know of that destroy the historical position?

Mike,

I don't currently know of any inspired or geologic evidence for asteroid impacts during the flood, evidence that doesn't cause problems for the idea that the geologic column was formed during the flood. Doesn't mean there isn't any. I'm open if someone can explain it.

I can imagine LDE 238 putting the trumpets in the future, but the passage doesn't mandate such. And given the implications I believe such an interpretation brings in, I'm hesitant to go with that interpretation.

Other dual applications that destroy the historicist position? My thoughts follow, without necessarily giving the logic behind them.

1. Putting the 1260 or 1290 or 1335 days of Dan. 12 into the future effectively means that the time of the end has not commenced, Daniel has not been unsealed, the 2300 days have not ended, and Rev. 10 has not happened.
2. Putting Dan. 11:32-35 into the future does the same.
3. Saying that the goat of Dan. 8 is the USA puts off the 2nd coming by a) mandating that the USA be divided into 4 parts, b) having the antichrist finally emerge in the "latter end of their kingdom," and c) having the 2300 days end after that.
4. Identifying the 4 beasts of Dan. 7 as being future (or present) essentially does the same as #1 and #2.
5. Most of the time, mistakenly using quotes from EGW to put the 5th seal in the future causes folk to question whether 1755, 1780, and 1833 were really fulfillments of the 6th seal.
6. Putting any of the first 4 seals in the future does the same.
7. Saying that the heavenly signs of Mt. 24 must happen again in the future in essence says that the time of the end has not yet begun, meaning that Daniel has not yet been unsealed and the 2300 days have not yet ended.

There are probably others.

Most folk that put the above prophecies in the future at some point end up maintaining that genuinely inspired prophetic writings, either biblical or modern, are in error. For example, above you acknowledged that GC says that the 3rd angel's message didn't start until 1844, but then you said that this was in error. This is way too common.

While we may differ in our understanding of a particular biblical or SOP passage, you have not yet heard me suggest that Isaiah, Daniel, Matthew, John, or Ellen White was incorrect in some inspired writing of theirs.

Pickle, I agree with what you wrote about the prophecies of Daniel. Those prophecies are too specific to be reapplied. But the seals and trumpets are not so specific that they can't reflect a dual application (of course, excepting the time elements).

And I guess I didn't mean to give you the impression that I think Ellen White is in error because she places the third angels' message beginning in 1844. What I meant to say is that Millerites felt they were preaching that message too, but that Sister White did not bring out this point as clearly.

But to take this aspect a step further. Can we truly say that the SDA church has been literally fulfilling the prophecy of Rev 14:6-11 since 1844? Or is what we've been doing since 1844 merely a shadow of what the final generation of saints will actually accomplish during the MOB crisis?

Here's what I mean. The language of the 3AM's is present tense, not future tense. For example, the "hour of his judgment is come." Can the word "hour" mean these past 157 years plus how ever many more years are yet to lapse between now and the close of probation?

I would like to suggest that we consider the 3AM's from a literal stance. In other words, the first angel's message announces that the final hour of judgment has begun (i.e., it has progressed to include the living). The second angel's message announces that Babylon is fallen, not will fall sometime in future. And the third angel's message warns against receiving the MOB which is being enforced, not will be enforced sometime in future.

Do see what I mean? Taken literally the 3AM's actually describe the final generation boldly proclaiming the three-fold final warning during the MOB crisis. Rev 14:1-5 implies it. Also Rev 13:15-18 creates the context. Whatever the church has been doing since 1844 is merely a shadow, not a fulfillment, of what will be done just before probation closes.

I'm sure you'll disagree with what I've just written, but please go easy on me, okay? I'm happy to discuss it with you or anyone else.

[ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike,

If I'm ever not easy enough on you, please reprimand me.

quote:

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Can the word "hour" mean these past 157 years plus how ever many more years are yet to lapse between now and the close of probation?

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Of course it must.

What you go on to suggest based on the tense of "is come" I think was basically suggested during Ellen White's lifetime, and was one of the things she disagreed with. What I recall is that someone said that you couldn't preach the 1st angel's message until after Oct. 22, 1844, and that EGW disagreed (see Ev 613). Let's see if we can find a biblical rationale for her position.

Consider Jn. 5:25; 12:23; 13:1; 16:21, 32; and 17:1. Here we have the author of Revelation saying that the "hour" is come, came, and has come (present, aorist, and perfect) when the events being discussed did not happen that precise hour. Clearly, when John says that the hour is come, came, or has come, he is saying that the relative and general time frame for those things to happen in has come.

Applying this to Rev. 14:7, the Millerites did in truth preach the 1st angel's message even though Oct. 22, 1844 had not yet arrived.

Now for the 2nd angel's message. "Babylon fell, fell" is what it says. The repetition of "fell" suggests a continuation of the falling process, a succession of falls. This could refer to the fact that the mother fell long ago and that the daughters fell later, or it could refer to an ever-growing apostasy.

GC 389 is quite emphatic that this message began in the summer of 1844, and that Babylon has not yet made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. It speaks of a succession of falls which will lead up to the point where she makes all nations drink.

Putting the thoughts of the last two paragraphs together, it is apparent that the 2nd angel's message itself foretells a succession of apostasies, and that this message began in the summer of 1844.

Back to your post: When the message began to be preached, it was a present tense fact that Babylon had fallen. The wording "is fallen" taken literally applies to the situation in 1844. However, a futurist could potentially make a case using the wording "make all nations."

Regarding the 3rd angel's message: The language used does not mandate that the test be in the present. "If any man worship ... receive ...." It doesn't say the test is in the here and now.

But notice what it does say: "The smoke of their torment ascendeth up ...." That's present tense. While vs. 10 uses future tense, vs. 11 uses present tense. Could this possibly mean that the 3rd angel's message will not be literally preached until after the 1000 years?

Of course not. But if not, then we can't necessarily be too picky about the tenses used in these messages as we interpret. And thus in the 3rd angel's message we find perhaps the best answer of them all to this question.

The above with Ev 613 would indicate that what the Millerites et. al. and the Seventh-day Adventists have been doing since they got started preaching after 1798 is a fulfillment, not just a shadow, of Rev. 14:6-11.

Mike,

At some point I'll show how the seals tie into Daniel's prophecies. If we can't tamper with Daniel, it seems impossible to tamper with the seals, for I can't see how one can tamper with the one without tampering with the other.

Okay, but I didn't expect you to agree with my observations and suggestions. I don't doubt that the Millerites preached the 3AM's, and I don't doubt that it was a fulfillment of prophecy. But what I'm referring to is a future fulfillment, which I believe will be a more literal one.

When probation closes I do not believe we'll have to look back on the prophecies and use the kind of logic that is required to explain why the historical view did not exactly fulfill this or that aspect of the prophecy according to the language employed.

What about the context of Rev 13:15 thru 14:1-11? The USA has influenced the world to enforce the MOB, the 144,000 are introduced, and then the 3AM's are described. This flow strongly sugggests the chronology I proposed in my last post.

I look forward to your thoughts on Daniel and the seals.

Mike,

quote:

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What about the context of Rev 13:15 thru 14:1-11? The USA has influenced the world to enforce the MOB, the 144,000 are introduced, and then the 3AM's are described. This flow strongly sugggests the chronology I proposed in my last post.

---

I suggest you be very careful who you say this to. While you may still hold firmly to the historicist view while looking for a future application, there are those who will take thoughts like this and toss the historicist fulfillments out the window.

But in a setting like this when we are trying to get questions answered, such questions must be asked.

Rev. 14:1-5 pictures the 144,000 either in heaven or in the new earth. Will the 3AM's be given after that point?

Now on Daniel and the seals. We must start with Dan. 11-12, comparing them with Mt. 24 and Lk. 21.

In Dan. 12:1 we have the worst time of trouble ever. In 11:33-35 we have the 1260 "days" pictured, leading up to the "time of the end." It is also a time of trouble, but it is upon God's people, while the one of Dan. 12:1 is upon the world at the time God's people are "delivered."

So we have one leading up to the time of the end, and one at the very end.

The first one is tied to the time, times, and half a time in Dan. 12:4-7, which is likely tied to the 42 months of Rev. 11:2 where the Gentiles tread under foot the city. This then ties the first time of trouble to the times of the Gentiles during which they tread under foot the city in Lk. 21:24.

Now this verse in Lk. 21 parallels Mt. 24:21 where we have the greatest tribulation upon God's people that ever was. Thus it would appear that Mt. 24:21 parallels Dan. 11:33-35 rather than Dan. 12:1.

After the treading under foot of Lk. 21:24 we have heavenly signs. After the great tribulation of Mt. 24:21 we have heavenly signs. Then Luke says:

quote:

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... and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: ....

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This would seem to correspond with Dan. 12:1.

In the 5th seal we have martyrs pictured, and more martyrs are to be killed after that. This seems to correspond with the great tribulation of Mt. 24:21 and the many days of Dan. 11:33-35. Then in the sixth seal we have heavenly signs, the same ones Mt. 24 pictures after the great tribulation.

Now putting all the above together, the heavenly signs of the 6th seal must occur after the tribulation brought on by the little horn during the 1260 days has ended. The idea that the Dark Day and the falling of the stars is yet future, if thought out and carried to its logical conclusion, mandates that

1. The 1260 days have not yet ended.
2. The time of the end has not yet begun.
3. Coupled with Dan. 12:4 and Rev. 10, this also means that the book of Daniel has not yet been unsealed,
4. and the 2300 days have not yet ended.

Thank you for that detailed comparison. Well done. You give many convincing reasons to embrace the historical view. And the truth be told, it's the safest interpretation we have as a church. It doesn't require leaping out in faith trying to plot a course for a future application. We have enough information about the future that it's not necessary to wrestle with dual application possibilities.

You notice the conservative moderators don't even bother to post their thoughts in threads like this one. I suppose it's their subtle way of protesting this kind of study. Who knows, maybe they're just not interested in the subject? But it seems if they can't prove their point by quoting books written 100 years ago then there's nothing else to say. Although I think that's being narrow minded it is nonetheless a safe course to follow. I'm not sure we'll ever arrive at new light that way.... but it is probably wiser to stay clear of ideas that deviate from the comfort zone.

I thought about deleting that last paragraph, but I'm getting somewhat frustrated with the unwillingness of some to engage studies that dare to dig where our pioneers may not have dug. I'm not talking about tossing the tailings of a new mine into the old tried and true mine. I think you'll admit that I believe in our historical message and interpetation.

But I think I'm growing tired of the silent treatment. Don't get me wrong. I have very much appreciated our dialogue, and the others who have been kind enough to study these questions. But I feel slighted and unwelcome. I'm probably just being too sensitive. So, I hope nobody minds me bearing my soul. I just wish there was a study forum out there somewhere where a guy can study with like minded people. Does anyone know of such a site?

I'm sorry if my words have hurt anyone. Please forgive me.

[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike,

Many good people obviously don't feel comfortable about some things, but they aren't sure what to say. They don't necessarily have good answers to give. That's not everyone's gift.

Take for instance Jeremiah Films' video against Adventism and Ellen White. I found it easy to shread apart. But a pastor from Alberta told me the other day that what I wrote about it is the best we have in the denomination. Maybe he's right, maybe not. But it illustrates a point. A lot of folk are busy. They don't have the time or the habit of thinking critically and deeply, getting to the bottom of issues.

But having the gift of being able to tackle these things has its pitfalls and dangers.

Bill Liversidge (sp?) will help you explore futuristic possibilities. I sat in on two sessions of his in a home in Ohio.

But I have to caution you. He emphasized the need of coming to the study with a clean slate. Then he skillfully led you where he wanted you to go. At some point he let me give some ideas on perhaps parallels between the trumpets and Jericho, or perhaps it was how the historicist interpretation of the 4th trumpet can be supported by Is. 13. Whatever it was he cut me off and said it had nothing to do with that. Which went to show that he wasn't willing to come with a clean slate himself.

What really floored me was the following: He said that eternal life referred to a quality of life that we have now rather than unending life. So I brought up Rom. 2 and pointed out that since we are given eternal life in the judgment, it must sometimes refer to something that we don't yet possess. He responded with the verse where Jesus said that the believer will not enter into judgment, a mistaken translation in modern versions. As the implications of his reply sunk in, I brought it up again and was told by both he and the host that believers would never be judged. Bill said something like that what Jesus said was to be considered more trustworthy than what Paul wrote in Rom. 2.

How Adventists who like to study can get so off base is beyond me.

He also suggested that the saints will be in heaven before the plagues fall. Whether he really believed such or whether he was just trying to encourage thought, I do not know.

So you can find folk who will delve into these issues with you, but some of these folks could just possibly lead you in directions where you don't want to go.

Sure it's safer to go with the historicist view. But it isn't safe if we don't try to support it with arguments we've never thought of before. We can no longer just sit around being content with what our forefathers dug up. We must dig for ourselves.

I used to dig to come up with something new and different. Now I dig to come up with something new about the same.

Not that some of the old details don't need adjusting. Like whether the Lombards were one of the 10 horns or not.

I am not certain why others are not entering into this topic, however, I am certain that others, like myself, are following this and other topics with interest.

I am interested in watching for the signs of the second coming without determining whether or not it is a dual application, however, as I said above, I am following this and the other similar topics with interest.

It is obvious to me that there are conditional prophecies that have been re-applied to our time simply because the conditions were not previously met for them to come to pass. As a result of our failure to respond in 1888, it seems that their fulfillment has been delayed just as His second coming has been delayed as He is waiting for us to respond, however, He will not be waiting forever.

All the prophecies will one day be fulfilled.

I corrected a spelling error.

[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

It may also be possible that some would prefer to discuss this particular topic in a private forum, therefore, I am considering moving it into either the Christian Concerns forum or the SDA Church Issues forum.

Pickle and Daryl, thank you for those comforting words. It is medicine for my poor sensitive soul. I certainly don't enjoy studying with people who deny the historical interpretation. But that's not to say I can't learn something. Usually I end up discovering new ways to verify the old ways. I love it when that happens.

Happy Sabbath.

Daryl:
I was glad to see you're willing to consider the possibility of dual applications in some circumstances. Also, I'm glad someone is in charge here that places importance on the events connected with 1888.

I started a thread under the SDA Church Issues section on 1888, and although it has 25 posts, it's lain dormant now for the last 7 weeks. If this trend continues the 1888 thread will eventually be bumped off the first subject page into the oblivion of page 2. I'm not familiar enough with 1888 to venture out much further than I have, so I'm putting in a plug here for that topic asking that anyone who is interested in it to revive the thread and tell us what the essence of the 1888 message is.

But regarding repetitions of prophecy, I am persuaded that there is overwhelming evidence of it in both the scriptures and SOP. I've not been able because of time limitations to go through Sister White's writings to find all of her statements that reapply prophecies to the future, but just the ones I've randomly come across, such as the unrolling of the scroll statement a few posts earlier, make it clear that Sister White placed many of the scriptures in the future that we have assumed only relate to the past.

If Ellen White could hold the view that the prophetic scrolls, for example, relate to future events, I think we’re in good company in agreeing with her.

I also believe that we’re on the strait and narrow path if we come to the scriptures with honest intensions and open minds. It is not necessary to vigorously defend doctrines where the Berean spirit prevails. Jesus said if any man’s will is to do His will, he will know of the doctrine whether it is of God or man.

And, there is a blessing pronounced on those that read the words of Revelation. It is safe to assume that this blessing applies to the honest-hearted, diligent student of the Word that has set his will to do the will of God. It is not safe to assume that this blessing applies to the reader who comes to the word with his own paradigm or with any other intension than to know and do God’s will.

Christ said wisdom is justified by her children, and some forum members have pointed out that there are living examples among us today of individuals who have gotten off track who believed in future fulfillments. But this is no proof of whether a particular view that these unfortunate people hold is true or false. Satan has always attempted to preempt the true message with either a fanatical counterfeit on the one hand or by creating a false fear among the conservative elements of God’s people on the other hand that a new teaching undoes the landmarks. Wisdom is indeed justified by her children, but spiritual things are only spiritually discerned. Knowing that new light must and will come, (it has been prophesied) our only real safety is in setting our wills to do the will of God. Many a debater rushes into an argument that God never sent him to make. Rather than debating with Paul, the Bereans went to the Word. It was always the less noble Jews that quibbled with Paul. A propensity to argue is not a healthy thing, and frankly I'm still learning myself that I make too little use of silence and reflection at times.

Sacred history confirms that the most successful method of Satan to oppose the work of God is not fanaticism but is the conservative elements within the Church. Sister White also confirms this and if I remember correctly, makes the prediction that it will be conservative churchmen at the end that complete the Omega apostasy within Adventism. Here is one of her quotes:

quote:

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Peter exhorts his brethren to "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." Whenever the people of God are growing in grace, they will be constantly obtaining a clearer understanding of His word. They will discern new light and beauty in its sacred truths. This has been true in the history of the church in all ages, and thus it will continue to the end. But as real spiritual life declines, it has ever been the tendency to cease to advance in the knowledge of the truth. Men rest satisfied with the light already received from God's word and discourage any further investigation of the Scriptures. They become conservative and seek to avoid discussion. T5 p. 706.2.

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Some forum readers may be asking “Is any of this discussion profitable?” I say yes. We need to foster open enquiry regarding prophecy and not attempt to seal up the scroll with our own interpretations. The contemporaries of William Miller tried to do this and rather than sealing up the prophecies, keeping them from the people, they sealed themselves off from the influence of the Holy Spirit. October 22, 1844 came and went, and the conservative churchmen who preached peace and safety did not discern the movement of Christ into the Most Holy Place.

In the same way, it is clear from the writings of Sister White and the scriptures, New Testament and Old that the Hebrew calendar, for example, was in effect after the cross and is in effect today. Penticost occurred one and a half months after the ressurection, but it fell on one of the divinely appointed times. But there are many within Adventism who will resist the mention of the Hebrew calendar today because they are content with their present understanding of the fulfillment of the fall feasts in 1844 (even though they were not fulfilled in literal time) and “rest satisfied with the light already received from God's word and discourage any further investigation of the Scriptures. They [are] conservative and seek to avoid discussion.” That is a dangerous position to be in. If we are not prepared to entertain the idea of the enduring nature of the calendar that God instituted because it cuts across our ideas of fulfilled prophecy in 1844, we will not distinguish when God is about to visit the Church at her next appointed time. And like the churchmen of Millers day, we will be ignorate of the fact that anything important happened.

The title of this thread is “What dual application does not distroy etc.” I say, a failure on our part to honestly investigate the possibility of future fulfillments of the fall feasts and other apocalyptic prophecies, particularly those that have only been partly fulfilled, will in fact be a contributing cause of the demise of conservative churchmen.

[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Mark,

In studying these things I am sure you want people to be open-minded, like the Bereans. Yet you say:

quote:

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... but just the ones I've randomly come across, such as the unrolling of the scroll statement a few posts earlier, make it clear that Sister White placed many of the scriptures in the future that we have assumed only relate to the past.

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This is rather strange. We already discussed this, and I do not recall that you have answered the basic questions: What scroll was she talking about? What does unrolling it mean?

I gave a comprehensive list showing how Ellen White used this phrase, and the meaning she gave the phrase in those passages does not coincide with what you are trying to see in it.

That's what we have to do. When confronted with a verse or passage that we don't know the meaning of, we have to find an inspired statement that explains what it means.

So, have you found one?

quote:

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I also believe that we’re on the strait and narrow path if we come to the scriptures with honest intensions and open minds. It is not necessary to vigorously defend doctrines where the Berean spirit prevails.

---

I think it would do well to read again Acts 17:11. The Bereans had open minds, yes. But they did vigorously defend ... Scripture. And that is all we are doing in this thread, defending what God has said through biblical and modern prophets.

I suppose you could call the traditional timing of Rev. 10 and 11, the 3 angels' messages, the 42 months of Rev. 13, the time periods of Dan. 12, the placement of the 5th and 6th seals "doctrines," but doing so clouds the real issue: GOD HAS SPOKEN.

So when you or Mike or anyone else (including the apostle Paul) says something about dual fulfillments, I'm going to listen, and then I'm going to ponder and compare it with what God has said. I will try to test it by the Word, and if it stands up to the Word, then I'll accept it. But if not, then I'll "vigorously defend" what God has said.

quote:

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Rather than debating with Paul, the Bereans went to the Word. It was always the less noble Jews that quibbled with Paul.

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Or rather, if they had found that he disagreed with the Word, they would no longer have listened to him gladly.

quote:

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" ... Men rest satisfied with the light already received from God's word and discourage any further investigation of the Scriptures. They become conservative and seek to avoid discussion."

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Of course this is wrong.

quote:

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But there are many within Adventism who will resist the mention of the Hebrew calendar today because they are content with their present understanding of the fulfillment of the fall feasts in 1844 (even though they were not fulfilled in literal time) and “rest satisfied with the light already received from God's word and discourage any further investigation of the Scriptures.

---

I enjoy studying the Hebrew calendar immensely, but I think you are mixing apples and oranges.

On the Day of Atonement the high priest entered the Most Holy. We are explicitly told that Jesus got into a chariot and went to the Most Holy from the Holy. We also are explicitly told that the Father went in a chariot just before Jesus did, and that both had been in the Holy. We are also explicitly told that this transition occurred on Oct. 22, 1844.

To suggest that the Day of Atonement could occur again in the future really doesn't make sense. Would Jesus leave the Most Holy, close its door, and return to the Holy, opening its door?

Also, since we are keeping the Day of Atonement today and have been since 1844, how could we have another fulfillment of it when the first fulfillment isn't over yet? And once it's over with the placing of the sins on the scapegoat, why would we need another fulfillment then?

quote:

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Penticost occurred one and a half months after the ressurection, but it fell on one of the divinely appointed times. ... the fall feasts in 1844 (even though they were not fulfilled in literal time) ....

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Excellent question. Why is this the case that they were not fulfilled in literal time?

The Hebrews were told to count 50 days from the morrow after the sabbath after the Passover. Therefore, the fulfillment of Pentecost should occur 50 days after the fulfillment of the morrow after the sabbath after the Passover.

Perhaps a case could be made for the Feasts of Unleavened Bread and Tabernacles also referring to precise units of time 7 long or 8 long. But we cannot build the same case for a precise time span between the Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Feast of Tabernacles. We are not told to count a certain number of days from one to the other. And so they don't have to be fulfilled 9 and 5 days or years apart from each other.

In the spirit of a learner I have a question: How were the 10th and 21st days of Nisan fulfilled in 31 AD?

Christ cleansed the temple on Monday. If Friday was the 14th, then the Jewish leaders getting mad at him could be a fulfillment of this, though they had their conference at which Judas appeared before this, and met again with him after this.

Since it is difficult to place the 10th day, I've wondered if it refers to their murderous designs after He cleansed the temple in 27 AD.

And the 21st day is tough. If Friday is the 14th, then Friday would be the 21st, and Thomas still wouldn't see Jesus until 8 days after the sunset of the previous Sunday. So what happened on the 21st day?

Do you have any thoughts on the precise fulfillments of these parts of the spring festivals?

Mark, I realize your last post was addressed to Daryl, but I hope you don't mind me responding with a resounding - Amen! Your rousing words were much appreciated. I too share your deep desire to discover new veins of truth in God's vast field of hidden treasures.

And that quote from Ellen White and your comments about "conservative" adventists speaks so clearly of our church today. Yes, there are brave souls out there who dare reach beyond the cage of confirmed doctirne, but it seems that the majority are uncomfortable venturing outside the comfort of our firm foundation.

Don't get me wrong. I am a strong advocate of the 27 fundemental truths of Adventism. What we as a church hold as sacred truth is non-negotiable. It is beyond question. And learning new ways to express the old ways is rewarding. But it's nothing compared to the satisfaction experienced by those who seek for new light.

It's entirely possible that not everything every church leader or member believes bears the stamp of God's approval. I'm not talking about the basic 27 fundemental truths. I've already confessed faith in the pillars of adventism. But have you noticed how many "truths" fall outside our official belief system? For example, the ordaination of women elders and pastors, the autumnal ceremonial sabbath days, the prinicples of dual application, the human nature of Christ, and my favorite - genuine conversion and true sanctification.

I mention all of this to say there's plenty of room for study and discovery. Of course our observations must not undermine or undo the foundation and the pillars already in place. But beyond these restrictions there is a universe of truth waiting to be found. And can we expect the conservative element to silently stand by as various people bring forth things new and old?

Quote by Pickle

"I am curious. What do you make of the subsequent voices, thunders, lightning, earthquake, and great hail? Is this not the 2nd coming?"

Hello Pickle

I feel odd calling someone "Pickle," but I guess I have to...

I was wondering if you would be able to expound on the above comment you made re the second coming?

I don't recall any Bible descriptions of this event, where there was hail involved.

Again Bob, you’re entitled to your interpretation of these things, but it is usually the strident voice that vigorously defends an untenable position such as the one you are taking with Sister White’s scroll statement. Your repeatedly denying that this statement means what it would appear to mean to most people does nothing for your cause.

And the“logic” that you use to defend your views would be better employed if it defended the truth. Above you make the point that the Jews could expect the spring feasts to be literally fulfilled because they were told to count 50 days from the day that the sheaf was waived but that they (and we) are not justified in expecting the fall feasts to be literally fulfilled. Any Jew, ancient or modern, would be surprised by that line of reasoning. The purpose of a calendar is to mark time.

Regarding your last question, you’ve answered half of it. The 10th was fulfilled on that Monday, not only because of the second cleansing of the temple by Christ, but because of His triumphal entry into the city. Jesus assumed the prerogatives of a King on the day; for the first time he received the homage of the people as King. He was immediately rejected, and became a marked man. In taking His seat on the donkey’s colt, Christ deliberately set himself aside as Israel’s King and sacrificial Lamb.

The fact that neither the 15th nor the 21st of Nisan seem to have met their fulfillment does not detract from the integrity of the calendar. The latter rain which occurs in Palestine in the spring has not yet fallen.

[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

RE: Unrolling of the Scroll - How do these quotes fit into the picture?

5BC 1103.5 "When men selfishly enter a course of disobedience to God they go on imperceptibly. They do not calculate what the sure result will be when they enter the path of temptation, and make but feeble efforts to resist, and some make none at all. But when the scroll is unrolled, and God looks over it, He will find that He has been denied in that place, dishonored in another place; and as the roll is opened more and more, the results of un-Christlike actions are revealed. The Word of God was not fed upon, therefore their actions were not the result of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Son of God (Letter 69, 1897)."

LDE 17.2 "The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. Not all in regard to this matter is yet understood nor will it be understood until the unrolling of the scroll.--6T 17 (1900)."

MARA 151.2 "Thus was displayed the last of those signs of His coming, concerning which Jesus bade His disciples, "When ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." After these signs, John beheld, as the great event next impending, the heavens departing as a scroll, while the earth quaked, mountains and islands removed out of their places, and the wicked in terror sought to flee from the presence of the Son of man."

Rev 6:12-17 "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

RE: The Censer Scene - Did we ever decide if Jesus casting down the censer in Rev 8:2-6 symbolizes the close of probation? If not, what about this quote?

EW 279, 280 "I saw angels hurrying to and fro in heaven. An angel with a writer's inkhorn by his side returned from the earth and reported to Jesus that his work was done, and the saints were numbered and sealed. Then I saw Jesus, who had been ministering before the ark containing the ten commandments, throw down the censer. He raised His hands, and with a loud voice said, "It is done." And all the angelic host laid off their crowns as Jesus made the solemn declaration, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

RE: The Seven Trumpets - If it can be agreed that Jesus throwing down the censer corresponds to the close of probation, then why can't we also agree that the trumpets follow? Please note Rev 8:2 and 6 in relationship to the censer scene (verses 3-5). How is it possible to separate the two? Understand I'm talking about a fututre application of the trumpets.

David,

I understand the 7th plague to be connecting great hail with the second coming.

I've added my first name to my display name.

Mark,

Reverse order in reply.

Jesus's triumphal entry was on Sunday, but he cleansed the temple on Monday.

quote:

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And the“logic” that you use to defend your views would be better employed if it defended the truth.

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"Thy word is truth," the Master said. God has said that the Day of Atonement began on Oct. 22, 1844, and it is that truth that I am defending. And anything that can ultimately be used to denigrate that truth I will seriously consider opposing with whatever logic I can find.

quote:

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Again Bob, you’re entitled to your interpretation of these things, but it is usually the strident voice that vigorously defends an untenable position such as the one you are taking with Sister White’s scroll statement. Your repeatedly denying that this statement means what it would appear to mean to most people does nothing for your cause.

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I haven't dogmatically interpreted anything. I've avoided doing that because I don't want to speculate. To the contrary, it is you who have proposed an interpretation, and you have again avoided the issue of needing to present an inspired source to substantiate your interpretation.

"Absent from the body and present with the Lord." "When they came together on the first day of the week to break bread."

But, you say, that doesn't mean that the dead aren't dead and that Sunday is now the day to keep? How can you "repeatedly deny that this statement means what it would appear to mean to most people"? Because it's what the Bible says on the matter, that's why.

But aren't you interpreting things? No, you're just taking at least the latter verse at face value. It doesn't say that they met every Sunday. It doesn't say that Sunday had replaced the Sabbath.

When Ellen White used the identical phrase to mean something totally different than what you are proposing, and you refuse to acknowledge or even consider such a fact, then you are not being open minded, and you are not being like the Bereans, and it makes it awfully hard to carry on a productive discussion of the matter where we both can learn from each other. You ought to think about that.

I almost suggested the following for your benefit last time: COL 294.1. If one wanted to, one could try to make a case that the scroll referred to was the sealed book of Rev. 5. Without trying to analyze such an idea for its correctness or incorrectness, it could be pointed out that such a position doesn't really help the idea of dual applications.

Mike,

On Rev. 6:12-17, there we have the heavens behaving like a scroll rolling up, rather than a scroll unrolling.

The mark-of-the-beast unrolling-of-the-scroll statement is found in CH 520-521, LDE 17, 6T 17, 8T 159, and GCDB 03-02-99. That makes 5 out of the 18 times on the CD I have that we have "unroll*" and "scroll." The date given in CH appears to be 1898.

In ST 06-24-97.1-2 we have two more quotes, written about the same time as the above. It's talking clearly about opening the Bible and reading the prophecies about Christ. These two instances are quoted on LHU 35. We have now considered 9 of the 18 quotes.

This clear meaning goes along with Ev 19, 707, AG 339, GW15 470, PM 402, 6T 133, ST 06-17-03, and 1888 133. That's 8 more of the 18 statements, making 17 in thus far.

In talking about the first 5, we want something that helps us understand them, and it is possible that these next 12 do that, but I'm not sure.

5BC 1103 defintely says something different than the last 12. It's not talking about reading the Bible or preaching the gospel. It sounds to me like it's talking about the books of record. I imagine we agree on that.

Then perhaps this goes along with my suggestion to Mark above. If it isn't talking about books of record opened already, then it could be talking about such in the future. And yet if it parallels the COL 294 statement, then we don't really get anywhere, since the COL 294 statement is referring to the special resurrection at the earliest.

So basically, we have no real basis to use LDE 17 to prove that there must be future applications of prophecies already declared by the Holy Spirit to be past.

Mike,

Good question about the censer. I think we may have discussed this some before you jumped in.

There is no question in my mind that the casting down of the censer must be the close of probation.

The seals, trumpets, and plagues are all introduced, and then there is a parenthesis, and then we come back to them. In Rev. 15 this parenthesis includes the redeemed standing on the sea of glass. Do the plagues not fall until after that point?

The next to last verse in Rev. 5 says that every creature everywhere is praising God. EGW quotes this on the last page of GC for a good reason. Do the seals no start to be opened until after that point?

Rather, these parenthesis give us a time framework in which to place the seals, trumpets, and plagues. The seals fall between the ascension of the Lamb who had just been slain and the time when every creature everywhere is praising God. The trumpets fall between the commencement of offering incense on the golden altar and the voices, thunders, lightnings, and an earthquake. The plagues fall between when men can no longer enter the temple and when we all stand on the sea of glass.

It appears at first logical to place the trumpets after the close of probation, but the position is difficult to support in light of the seals and trumpets.

Notice that I left all interpretations out of the above. I took just the passages and made some simple conclusions from them. Now the next step would be to find interpretations that would fit these conclusions ... unless you can see where I have erred.

[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Bob Pickle ]

Bob, I agree that there are parenthetical passages woven throughout the Revelation. They occur before and between the seals, trumpets and plagues. The introductory visions depict scenes in heaven. And the interim visions, which appear between the 6th and 7th in the series, reflect developments that began prior to its place in the prophecy but reaches its climax at that point.

The Seals
1. Before the 7 seals John was shown the history of the 7 churches leading up to the church of the 144,000.

2. Next the 7 seals are introduced.

3. Then he was shown everyone in heaven and earth praising God because Jesus is worthy to open the 7 sealed book.

4. Next follows the opening of the seals.

5. Between the 6th and 7th seals John was shown the sealing of the 144,000. Which was accomplished before the close of probation, but was not as evident until just before the 7th seal was opened.

The Plagues
1. Before the plagues John was shown the history of the great controversy leading up to the 144,000 praying for the harvest of the grain (saved) and the grapes (unsaved) shortly after the close of probation. Rev 14:14-20.

2. Next the plagues are introduced.

3. Then he was shown the 144,000 praising God in heaven and acknowledging the justice of the plagues.

4. Next follows the out pouring of the plagues.

5. Between the 6th and 7th plagues John was shown the three-fold union deceiving the nations of the world to enlist their services in the battle of Armageddon. Which was accomplished before the close of probation, but was not as evident until just before the 7th plague was poured out.

The pattern is almost identical with the seals and the plagues. But what about the trumpets?

The Trumpets
1. Before the trumpets John is shown the history of the church leading up to 144,000 waiting out the silence in answer to the question - Who shall be able to stand? Rev 6 thru 8:1.

2. Next the trumpets are introduced. Rev 8:2.

3. Then he was shown Jesus in heaven casting the censer to earth where the 144,000 are praying shortly after the close of probation. Rev 8:3-5.

4. Next follows the sounding of the trumpets. Rev 8:6 thru 11:19.

5. Between the 6th and 7th trumpets John was shown the Millerite Movement, the 1260 years of papal persecution and the French Revolution. Which were accomplished before 1844, but was not as evident until just shortly before the 7th trumpet was sounded.

Did you notice how the trumpets deviated from the pattern of the seals and the plagues? Points #1 and #2 are the same, depicting the 144,000 on earth, and then the 7 fold prophecy is introduced. But point #3 pictures the 144,000 still on earth rather than praising God in heaven. Point #4 is the same. But again, point #5 is different, in that it happens before the close of probation instead of afterwards.

I'm not sure what to make of these observations from the historical point of view. Perhaps Bob you are better suited for that task. But I can share some thoughts from the future point of view. The discrepancies noted above disappear when the trumpets are considered from a future point of view.

If the trumpets are sounded after probation closes then it could be argued that the 144,000 are associated with heaven in that Jesus gave them the censer indicating that their prayers no longer require mediation because their sins have been blotted out.

And the events that occur between the 6th and 7th trumpets would follow the same pattern as the seals and plagues in that, as has been shown in the thread entitled - Separate Yet Similiar Views of Prophecy - all of those scenes in Rev 10 thru 11:13 would begin before the close of probation and reach their climax just before the 7th trumpet is sounded.

Well, this study got a bit deep and detailed. I hope you can at least understand what I'm trying to say, even if you might not agree.

Mike,

While I can see how the parenthesis between the 6th and 7th seal can occur during the sixth seal, and the parenthesis between the 6th and 7th trumpet can occur during the 6th trumpet, as already discussed, I find it difficult to imagine that the parenthesis between the 6th and 7th plagues is something that occurs only during the sixth plague. I think this observation harmonizes with what you just said.

I don't think the preceding visions necessarily have to lead up to the next visions, but I'll ponder it.

Something concrete instead of I think: Point #3 on the trumpets:

1. EGW explicitly says that John was looking into the Holy Place in the first verses of chapter 8.
2. The high priest DAILY offered incense on the golden altar.
3. The ministration in the Holy ceased on the Day of Atonement.
4. Therefore, it is certain that at least part of this introduction to the trumpets is dealing with Christ's ministry from 31 AD to 1844. And the prayers of the saints are the prayers offered then, not after the close of probation.

How do these observations affect yours?

Tell me if I need to clarify anything or give references.

Bob, I just lost a detailed reply to your post. I'm sick. So, here's the shortened version. It concerns the golden censer and the day of atonement.

Unless I'm mistaken, the only time the golden censer was used was on the day of atonement. Compare Lev 16:12 and Heb 9:4. Also note this EGW quote:

Life Sketches of Ellen G. White, page 100.3 - "In the holiest I saw an ark; on the top and sides of it was purest gold. On each end of the ark was a lovely cherub, with its wings spread out over it. Their faces were turned toward each other, and they looked downward. Between the angels was a golden censer. Above the ark, where the angels stood, was an exceeding bright glory, that appeared like a throne where God dwelt. Jesus stood by the ark, and as the saints' prayers came up to Him, the incense in the censer would smoke, and He would offer up their prayers with the smoke of the incense to His Father."

Rev 8:3,4 shows Jesus receiving incense for the golden censer at the altar which faces the throne of God. The only time the altar of incense stood "before" the throne of God was when He relocated the throne, in 1844, from the table of showbread in the HP to the ark of the covenant in MHP. Thus these two verses seem to begin in 1844 and continue through the close of probation.

Rev 8:5, the very next verse, shows Jesus casting the censer to earth indicating the close of probation. See EW 279, 280 (quoted a few posts ago). And then follows the sounding of the trumpets. Yes, Ellen White quotes Rev 8:3 and applies it to the HP. But her focus is the altar of incense, and not the golden censer. See GC 414 below.

The altar is indeed located in the HP. But the golden censer was used in the MHP on the day of atonement. True, it was filled with incense from the altar on the way into the MHP. And on the way back out it was filled with fire from the altar and then cast to earth. See EW 280, 281 below.

GC 414 - "He saw an angel "having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne." Rev 8:3. Here the prophet was permitted to behold the first apartment of the sanctuary in Heaven; and he saw there the "seven lamps of fire" and the "golden altar" represented by the golden candlestick and the altar of incense in the sanctuary on earth."

EW 280, 281 - "As Jesus moved out of the most holy place... Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while He was in the most holy place were placed upon Satan, the originator of sin, who must suffer their punishment." [NOTE: I suspect this corresponds with Rev 8:5.]

All in all, can you blame me for wondering if the trumpets happen when probation closes? After all, they follow the close of probation in Rev 8:5. Do you think I would have a hard time explaining this to a child or a non-SDA? It all reads so naturally and flows so nicely. It doesn't require long and elaborate explanations as to why we can't read it the way it's written. You see what I mean?

Mike,

Good point on the censer being used only on the Day of Atonement, except for unusual exceptions, like Aaron standing between the living and the dead during a plague.

But notice how the passage never says that the Angel burned incense in the censer. He had the censer and brought incense, but He burned the incense on the altar, not in the censer. That makes the burning incense on the altar portion of this vision part of the DAILY.

On the Day of Atonement the high priest took FIRE off the altar and put it in the censer, the same as the Angel does here. So that is the point where we have a transition from the DAILY to the YEARLY, when the Angel puts fire from the altar into the censer.

I can see why folk would think the trumpets happen after the close of probation. I also can see why folk would think the plagues happen after we've been raptured away to the sea of glass. I also can see why folk might think that the seals happen after every creature praises God, BUT NO ONE EVER VENTURES TO SUGGEST THAT ONE.

Now if the last can't be true, then perhaps the first two aren't true either.

Look at Rev. 15. First we have the 7 angels with the 7 plagues. Then the redeemed stand on the sea of glass. THEN THE ANGELS ARE GIVEN THE PLAGUES.

Wait a minute. They already had the plagues. Then they were given the plagues after they already had them? Even a child can see that Revelation is jumping back and forth.

[ December 24, 2001: Message edited by: Bob Pickle ]

Bob, you are very observant. Nothing slips by your keen eye. That's one of the many reasons I enjoy studying with you. Thank you.

I would suggest that "having" the plagues and being "given" the vials to carry them in (along with the wrath of God) are two separate things. What do you think? With each of the 7 fold prophecies they are first quickly introduced, then a scene in heaven is shown, and finally they are described one by one, with an interim scene between the 6th and 7th. This consistency suggests regularity, not uncertainty.

I'm not sure what you meant about the seals? The four beasts take turns inviting John to "Come and see" as the first four seals are opened one at a time. In what way is this a complication that implicates the trumpets and plagues? Can you please share a little more on this point?

Concerning the altar of incense and the daily services in the HP - I think it's important to understand that the high priest placed incense on the altar on the day of atonement on his way into the MHP, and that he also placed incense in the censer to burn while he was engaged in the investigative judgment. And that he stopped at the altar again on his way back out to place more fire in the censer, and in Jesus' case He casts it to earth signifying the close of probation.

At which point Jesus swaps clothing and dons His most kingly robes and rides forth on a white horse to reward the inhabitants of earth according to their works. Is it just coincidental that the very next scene, after Jesus casts down the censer, describes natural disasters that impact 1/3 of the earth's population? Personally, I don't think it's an accident.

Just like the seals naturally follow the interim heaven scene, and just like the plagues naturally follow the interim heaven scene, so too I believe the trumpets naturally follow the interim heaven scene. Each interim heaven scene is perfectly calculated to compliment the following 7 fold description of events on earth. Again, this amazing consistency warrants merit, and serves to justify suggesting that the trumpets possess dual application properties.

By the way, I hope and pray you and yours have a merry, merry Christmas. God bless. And thank you for being such a fantastic study partner. I very much value and appreciate you.

[ December 24, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike,

Thanks you for the kind words.

I don't see how anyone can have something before they are given it. While we do have scenes in heaven in Rev. 5, 8, and 15, the parenthetical scene in heaven in Rev. 15 takes place entirely after the plagues are over, unlike Rev. 5 and 8.

On the seals: Look at Rev. 5:13. It says that every creature everywhere is praising God. GC quotes this on its last page for good reason. It can only happen either when every knee bows or after sin is no more.

DA quotes the praises of Rev. 5 in its description of the ascension. 3SP is even more explicit, identifying the 24 elders as being those who went to heaven at that time with Christ.

Rev. 5 pictures Christ as if He had just been slain.

Since the seals cannot take place after the time when all everywhere are praising God, the only choice is for them to happen between the ascension and the end of sin. So rather than the latest point in the intro being the starting point of the seals, it must be the ending point.

On the altar of incense: Read Lev. 16 again. There is no mention of burning incense on the altar.

As the high priest went into the sanctuary, the very first thing he did was put coals from the altar into his censer (vs. 12). Once he got into the Most Holy, he put the incense in the censer (vs. 13).

Rev. 8:3-4 stresses that the incense is put on the altar, and it appears that some time elapses.

Not till vs. 5 do we have fire from the altar put into the censer, and then this point isn't dealt with much. So not till vs. 5 can we be having the Yearly service start, since not till vs. 5 do we have the FIRST thing the high priest did in the tabernacle on that day being mentioned.

To emphasize two points: 1) Lev. 16 mentions nothing about burning incense on the altar. 2) Fire from the altar was put in the censer BEFORE rather than after the high priest went into the Most Holy.

Regarding consistency of the seals, trumpets, and plagues following the intro heavenly scene: 1) The seals occur BEFORE every creature praises God. 2) The plagues occur BEFORE we all stand on the sea of glass. 3) The trumpets occur BEFORE the voices, thunderings, lightnings, and earthquake described in GC's chapter "God's People Delivered."

Right here we have a specific point that can be used to test the validity of futurist theories. Can you think of ways to show that the seals, trumpets, and plagues occur AFTER these things rather than BEFORE?

Consider carefully the implications of your statement:

quote:

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Again, this amazing consistency warrants merit, and serves to justify suggesting that the trumpets possess dual application properties.

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If the passages show consistency in the way you suggested (which is called into question above), then how can the historicist interpretation be true? Assuming that the trumpets occur after the casting down of the censer, then what censer was cast down prior to Alaric's invasion in 395 AD? Might not statements like this lead people to throw out the historicist interpretation all together? And yet, how can one delve into futurism and not end up with "points" like this?

I hope you have a good Christmas as well. I appreciate these kind of discussions where listen to what the other is saying.

Bob, as usual your logic is impeccable. And it's almost like shooting myself in the foot attempting to justify a futurist theory since I totally agree with your rationale from the historical point of view.

However, I think it fair to admit that I tend to believe the Revelation favors the future view. Yes, the historical fits, especially concerning the time element of prophecy. But for reasons that you have been unable to accept I believe the primary focus of the Revelation encompasses the last days - starting with the USA enforcing the MOB and ending with the establishment of the New Earth.

I realize this stance appears to fly in the face of the historical stance adopted and advocated by our pioneers, including Ellen White. However, in my mind there are no contradictions. I also understand the risk of leading others astray. But I'm not sure this is sufficient cause to abandon the quest.

To reiterate the reasons why I believe the primary focus of the Revelation is future I offer the following (please bear in mind that these reasons in no way undermine what I believe about the historical view):

1. After the Laodicean Era is introduced John is invited to witness the unfolding of future events from heaven. "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Rev 4:1. I take this "hereafter" to mean developments that unfold during the Laodicean Era.

2. "A throne was set in heaven..." Rev 4:2. I believe this scene compliments Dan 7:9. These two parallel passages describe the throne in the MHP. Which is where the throne has been during the Laodicean Era.

3. During the opening of the seals an interim scene is inserted which focuses on the numbering and sealing of the 144,000 during the Laodicean Era when the investigative judgment in MHP progresses to include the cases of the living just before the close of probation. Rev 7.

4. Just before the sounding of the trumpets Jesus steps out of the MHP and casts down the censer signifying the close of probation. Clearly these too are developments that happen during the Laodicean Era.

5. During the 5th trumpet "only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" suffer torment. Rev 9:4. Obviously this scene is referring to things that happen after the close of probation, after the 144,000 have been numbered and sealed. This too happens during the Laodicean Era.

6. The context of Rev 13 focuses on the USA and Papal Europe enforcing the MOB. Rev 14 pictures the 144,000 boldly proclaiming the 3AM's, and then it shows them praying for the harvest of the grain and grapes after the close of probation. Again, all this transpires during the Laodicean Era.

7. Both the historical and the future schools of prophecy place Rev chapters 15-22 in future to be fulfilled during the final days of the Laodicean Era.

For the 7 reasons listed above I feel completely justified in seeking ways to understand how the seals and trumpets will be fulfilled in future.

Regarding the points you made in your last post. The angels were already in possession of the plagues when they were handed the vials. I don't see a confusion of sequence here. I think it is safe to assume that the vials serve as vessels to transport the plagues.

The heaven scene John was shown before the seals were opened is much like the heaven scene he was shown before the plagues were poured out. I'm not sure what the problem is? All the interim heaven scenes scattered throughout the Revelation nicely compliment the developments they introduce. I associate the accolades mentioned in Rev 5:13 with the enthusiasm that attends the progress of the investigative judgment in the MHP before the close of probation.

I find it difficult to imagine that the high priest did not also put incense on the golden altar before the throne of God on the day of atonement. Either way, the fact the high priest is toting around the golden censer is proof enough that he's involved with duties associated with the day of atonement. This fact is so obvious I don't see how we can overlook it without missing the main focus of the prophecy?

I guess the consistency I mentioned earlier has more to do with the overall contruction of the seals, trumpets and plagues. As you pointed out the trumpets are different than the plagues in that the heaven scene preceding them shows things that happen before they are fulfilled rather than afterwards. But the same thing holds true for the seals too, at least from the perspective I just described above. I'm not sure why the plagues are different in this regard?

Again, although these arguments in favor of a future application of the seals and trumpets appear to undermine the historical view, I personally believe that when rightly understood neither application contradicts one another. The flexible nature of symbolic prophecy is fluid enough to accommodate both views without one cancelling out the other. Again, I appeal to the concept - Separate yet similiar.

Mike and Bob:
I just found your thread and you are studying a subject that I am trying to grasp for myself. I personally have not been satisfied with our traditional understanding of the trumpets. They may be completely correct but I have not been able to show anybody from the Bible how we arrive at such conclusions and until I am I will have to keep researching the issues. I just put this in here to let you know my starting assumption.

With the above stated, and with the knowledge that I need to read all of your preceeding material in order to catch up with you, I would like to share a brief perception for you Mike. It appears that you have the belief that 1844 starts somewhere around Rev 4:1. Is that correct? In GC EGW appears to start 1844 around the time of Rev 11:19. If this is true then your perception of Laodecia opening Rev 4 would be a little too soon.

Also, you have probably already spoken to this idea, doesn't the principle of recapitulation come into effect. The churchs cover the time from John to the second coming, the seals repeat and cover the same area, the trumpets do the same, etc, each covering the same time area but different foci. But,about the time of Rev 11:19 there seems to be a shift in focus to the 1844 onward concept? I believe Rev 12 is an overview somewhat along the lines of Dan 2, but 13-19 appears to be covering post 1844 events.

Couldn't resist throwing 2 cents in for the sake of getting into the discussion.
Thanks for studying.

Mike,

quote:

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...I believe the primary focus of the Revelation encompasses the last days ...

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So do I. Every bit of it. In the light of Acts 2:17 and Heb. 1:2, "last days" is a term that can refer to the last 2000 years, when 2/3's of the earth's history was gone and only 1/3 was left.

In other words, part of our problem is that we think that last days is something like the final generation. We need to look more at it like God looks at it.

quote:

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1. After the Laodicean Era is introduced John is invited to witness the unfolding of future events from
heaven. "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Rev 4:1. I take this "hereafter" to mean developments that unfold during the Laodicean Era.

---

This conclusion takes the verse out of context. What follows is an important point from our early days. And its topically relevant rather than chronologically relevant.

To the church of Philadelphia Christ said that He was the One who shutteth and openeth. Then He referred to an open door. Then He mentions the temple of God.

Then in Rev. 4:1 we have an open door. John goes up and sees the Holy Place. Then in Rev. 11:19 the temple is opened again and he sees the ark.

So the door opened in 4:1 has to be the door into the Holy Place. And EGW said that what John saw in ch. 4 was the Holy Place. That being so, "hereafter" cannot mean during the Laodicean Era.

If it meant anything chronologically, it would mean after, not during, the Laodicean Era.

The above thoughts deal with your point #2 as well.

On Rev. 7, here we have a forgotten date in Adventism. When were the 4 angels about to loose the winds when the sealing angel arose in the east? 1848.

The king of France said, "I was never more firmly seated on the throne of empire than I am to-night." The next night he was running for his life. Revolution swept Europe. Thrones were burned in the streets.

Then it all stopped. Horace Greeley said, "It was a great wonder to us all what started so suddenly that confusion among the nations; but it is a greater wonder still what stopped it."

That was the year of the Sabbath Conferences. A handful of dirt-poor folk with 3 preachers amongst them (James, Ellen, and Bates) were trying to agree on what the Bible said. They became convinced that the world had to be told about the Sabbath being the seal of God. So they went out to warn the world!

Ridiculous! Such a small group! Arising out of the east, small at first, not very bright, but now that little band has become a mulititude. It isn't dawn anymore.

The above is taken from Great Second Advent Movement 271-275. A vision of Ellen White explaining the meaning of ascending from the east is included.

So, Rev. 7 starts when the judgment of the dead has just begun. It can't be later, for it isn't dawn anymore.

On point #4, if we say that the trumpets must be after the casting down of the censer, then they must be after the voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake as well, things which take place after the casting down of the censer.

On point #5, the 5th judgment of the trumpets doesn't mention the 144,000 by name. It only mentions those with the seal of God. Adventists have not been the only ones to keep the Sabbath down through time.

On point #6, are you suggesting that Rev. 13:1-10 all occur during the Laodicean message?

Regarding the vials: Rev. 15:7 says they are full of the wrath of God. 21:9 says they are full of the seven last plagues. So "wrath" and "plagues" must be synonomous. 16:1-4, 8, 10, 12, 17 say that they get "poured." So they are pictured as a liquid.

If they had the plagues before they got the vials, then what were they holding the liquid in? Why does 15:7 say that the vials were already full of the wrath/plagues at the time they were given to them?

On Rev. 5:13, read it carefully. It won't happen till after the 1000 years. The devil isn't praising God, his angels aren't praising God, and a lot of folk in this world are cursing God. And the verse includes Christ. A lot of folk aren't praising Christ. BUT THE VERSE SAYS THAT EVERY CREATURE EVERYWHERE WILL PRAISE THE FATHER AND CHRIST. THIS MUST BE FUTURE.

On the censer, EGW says that John is looking into the Holy Place at this point. The Angel offers incense on the altar for awhile there. Not till vs. 5 does He put fire in the censer. This was done at the beginning of the Day of Atonement. So not till vs. 5 do we have the Day of Atonement services commencing.

Or are you suggesting that Rev. 8:4 happens after 8:5?

Regarding your next-to-last paragraph, my point is that the seals, trumpets, and plagues all have intros that depict events that take place BEFORE and AFTER the seals, trumpets, and plagues.

In Rev. 5 we have the ascension. This happens BEFORE the seals. We also have every creature praising God. This happens AFTER the seals.

In Rev. 8 we have an Angel enter the Holy Place to offer incense on the altar. This happens BEFORE the trumpets. We also have thunderings, ligtnings, and an earthquake. As depicted in GC's chapter "Deliverance of God's People," this happens AT THE END of the trumpets.

In Rev. 15 we have no man being able to enter the temple until after the plagues. This happens BEFORE the plagues. We also have the redeemed on the sea of glass. This happens AFTER the plagues.

I think what would be most helpful to us is to concentrate on Rev. 5:13 and 8:3-5 till we have positions on these that adequately explain them, and until we understand what each other's positions really are. Maybe we're at that point already, but I get the feeling we might not be.

Thanks for joining in, Greg.

Try reading my paper on the trumpets: "The Seven Trumpets of Revelation: Were the Later Reformers Right?" You may find some of the info you are looking for.

I had looked for years to try to find ways to substantiate the historicist view of the trumpets with little success, except for the ideas regarding their timing and their similarity to the fall of the heathen city of Jericho.

Summer before last I tried to find the symbols of the trumpets elsewhere again. This time the Lord opened things to my mind, and I was able to show that every trumpet's symbolism had some connection to military conquest. Also, I was able to use the 4th trumpet to show that they really couldn't happen in the future.

Then I wrote the paper. Let me know what you think.

Okay, I didn't think you would agree with my observations. But one thing is certain, we agree on the historical view point. And as I have said before, that's the safest interpretation since we have plenty of inspired support validating it.

I'm not sure another round or volley postulating about the seals anad trumpets will generate any better results. You are firmly entrenched in the historical application, and I am willing to allow for the possibility that the seals and trumpets have a future application. I realize I haven't provided you sufficient logic or reason to loosen your stance, and to be honest, it was never my intention to persuade you or anyone else of anything.

I understand how hard it is to look at the seals and trumpets from a future point of view when a person has worked so hard to establish the historical point of view, a view that we all admit is not the easiest one to verfiy. Which is one of the reasons why I believe a future view is the primary focus of the seals and trumpets.

When one of the cardinal rules of interpreting the Bible is to take a passage as it reads, unless it is obvious a symbolic meaning is intended, encounters complications when attempting to prove the historical view of the first four trumpets. Personally, I cannot justify suggesting that the primary interpretation is symbolic when reading it literally does not jeopardize the integrity of Adventist eschatology, especially when viewed from the future stance I've been suggestsing.

This is a huge obstacle that I believe we must overcome and justify to the rest of the world. There is nothing absurd about the future view I've been advocating, nothing aberrant when compared to Adventist theology. The future view I've been trying to share is much easier for people to accept than trying to convince them that the nature terminology employed in Rev 8 actually symbolizes military conquests. I'm not saying it's impossible or unbiblical. Remember, I agree with all the logic myself. I just pointing out that it's easier the other way. Which is another reason why I believe the future literal view is most likely the primary focus.

At any rate, I did the best I could to explain why I believe the way I do. In the final analysis I think it comes down to what a person is willing to accept as a valid interpretation of this or that part of the Revelation account of human history. What makes sense to me, did not make sense to you. Oh well. It's a free country. Throughout this thread I have given what I consider significant justification for entertaining a future view of the seals and trumpets. It did not hold water with you, and that's okay. I do not believe the Bible or Ellen White condemns seeking for ways to apply the trumpets to future developments, in fact there are a few quotes where she even seems to do it herself, even though her primary focus was the historical view.

A future view of the seals and trumpets is virgin territory, we don't have much from the pioneers. I believe it is the final frontier for Adventism. I believe eventually people will begin to see clearly how the future is portrayed in the seals and trumpets. And if I'm wrong? Oh well, I'm sure I won't be the only person who got part of the story wrong and is admitted to the kingdom of God any way.

Thank you for the dialogue. If I've missed a detail you'd like more comments on, please let me know. I may jump in from time to time if this threads continues.

With Greg jumping into this topic I am curious what his thoughts are on this, after he has had a chance to read this thread, of course, and it isn't exactly a short thread.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

Mike,

Before you bow out for now, please try to grapple a little more with the texts themselves.

It's easy to say, "Maybe this has a future application." It's a bit more difficult to substantiate how that can be done while still doing justice to the text.

Specifically, please explain Rev. 5:13 and 8:3-5 in the light of any possible futuristic scenario you can.

When do the seals begin? Before or after Rev. 5:13? If before, when? What bearing would this have on the asension and Holy Place scene of Rev. 4-5.

Is 8:3-4 a scene from the Holy Place? Does it occur before the coals are put into the censer on the Day of Atonement? What bearing does this have on the timing of the trumpets?

Dear Bob,Mike, Daryl, and Mark:
I think you did very well on this study. It has covered a large amount of material that I personally am interested in. I have many questions to ask and you guys seem like you are willing to wade in an bring the Bible and the SOP to bear on these questions.

As I read your thoughts I tried to jot a few ideas down to see if I could add any light to the discussion. After a few brief comments I would like to ask some questions of my own. The general thoughts that I saw, among all the various ideas shared, were the following:
1. the duality of prophecy. I feel that there are dual applications but I am not sufficiently knowledgeable to know which are dual and which are not.
2. the trumpets - literal or symbolic. I vote for symbolic. I think almost everything in Revelation is symbolically based and the symbolic position is the first one that has to be explored. That is one of my questions - why are the concepts in the 6th seal apparently more literal than symbolic? And why are the first 4 plagues stated as literal in GC and the 5th and 6th more symbolic?
3. the saints executing judgment. In the OT when judgment was pronounced on somebody all the congregation was to stone them. They not only decided but they were to actually, so it appears, required to throw a stone signifying that had they the power they would have executed the judgment. How we are to throw the stones in the executive judgment I suspect we will find out in heaven.
4. historicism. I think the historicist position is the only safe place to be. Any deviation from that position puts us in the same territory as Eve was when she "began" the dialogue with satan. We all think we can handle certain philosophies but for me personally I don't want to get caught up in the almost imperceptible shift. Preterism and futurism are satans ground.
5. EGW's view of the trumpets. I think, when I have finished my own personal study of the trumpets, I will find that she speaks about them clearly. I think she has spoken of them in GC especially in the context of the roman catholic church. I just can't see them yet because my Bible study has not been sufficiently thorough to allow me to recognize the pattern. My own thinking is still too stong. When I have submitted my thoughts to the cleansing process of the Word of God, and my thoughts are captive to Christ's thoughts (II Cor 10:5) then I will be able to see.
I believe that a true Biblical understanding of the trumpets are embedded in GC especially in the sections regarding the rcc. I believe this because of the style of Daniel. Each prophetic chapter in Daniel goes over the same territory but with different emphases. I believe that Revelation does the same thing but at a point farther down in time. For me, GC is the commentary on Revelation and Daniel. I believe she covers the same material, in the same order as Daniel and Revelation. I believe that we can see her explanation of the thunders, and the movements at 1844. I believe that the trumpets and seals are just as clearly spoken of in GC but we are not studied enough to see properly, or at least I am not studied enough to see properly.

It is my goal to interact with minds like yours to develop and refine my thinking until I can see what God has left for us.

An interesting sidelight was my personal study on the plagues. I was studying the word ten. I went to the "ten" plagues of Egypt fully expecting the Bible and the SOP to label them the ten plagues. But neither the Bible or the SOP refer to them as ten plagues. The Bible and the SOP refer to the plagues as signs and wonders, with no specific number of plagues. What that forced my mind to do is to adjust to the idea that there may have been more than ten plagues. There certainly were more than ten wonders. So as I let go of the word ten, in that context, whole sets of new questions came up for me. As a result of these questions I could see that the Egyptian signs and wonders were very much like the "seven" "last" plagues. Does seven mean 7 or does it mean a complete and perfect number of them? I was finally able to get at least a little grasp of the drying up of the euphrates. It is in fact very similar to the drying up of the Red Sea. So then the question was did the signs and wonders of Egypt start at the burning bush, the 3 signs for Moses at Mt Sinai, the displaying of the 3 signs to the elders, did the Red Sea experience end the signs and wonders or did the whole wilderness wandering fit in during the signs and wonders. As I have been studying the plagues the quote in GC 636 about the angry multitudes being suddenly arrested took on a whole new meaning for me. I could see the 6th plague in it because I has studied enough to "see". I hope and pray that as I interact with you we will recreate the Sabbath meetings of the early pioneers as we dig deep into the Word?

A few of my questions have already been asked in my long prologue. But here are a few of them:
1. Could the censer scene in Rev 8 be a an ending and then the trumpets explain how we arrived at the ending? The throwing down of the censer seems to indicate a close of probation. Could the trumpets indicate how we arrived at this close of probation?
2. Could the close of probation referred to in Revelation 8:5 indicate the ending of the daily component of the sanctuary?
3. What evidence in the first trumpet attaches it to any thing? Where and when did the first trumpet start? I think the starting point would give us the framework to locate the rest of the trumpets.
I think that is enough for now.
Thank you for letting me participate in this study.

Greg,

I believe your first point/question is correct, except that I see the voices, thunderings, lightnings and earthquake of Rev. 8:5 and 11:19 as being identical. Therefore the scenes following the 7th trumpet extend a little past the close of probation.

Regarding #2, I think the putting of coals in the censer represents the ending of the daily, rather than the casting down of it. Thus far there is at least 157 years between the two.

Regarding #3, my paper on the trumpets deals with that. Since the symbolism of the first 4 trumpets is taken from OT passages that deal with the downfall of Babylon or Israel or Judah, then the 1st trumpet would have to begin after Israel and Babylon had become synonymous. This didn't begin to happen until Constantine, and wasn't finished until the reign of Theodosius. The year he died is when Alaric began his invasion.

I don't have a clue why the 6th seal would be literal while the 1dt 5 are symbolic. Same response on the plagues.

On the 10 plagues, Revelation's symbols are largely taken from Daniel's time, Moses's/Joshua's time, and Elijah's time. Thus Rev. 12's symbolism is taken entirely from the Exodus.

Beginning with plague #4, none fell on Goshen. So the last 7 then and now won't fall on God's people.

Before you have the 7 last, you have the 3 woes. May be weak, but that makes 10.

Bob:
Can't spend much time on the subject at this moment but I would like to ask some more questions later tonight. Thank you for being willing to interact. I got copies of your trumpet study and the 7 kings of Rev 17. When I finish with them I will share my thoughts on them and add a few of my own if possible. Did you get a chance to check out the Daniel dates?
I would appreciate any help I can get.
Greg

Bob:
Thank you for the feedback. We had a good discussion going on Club Adventist about the trumpets. One of the people stated that that censer event was a completed event and symbolized the transfer from the hp to the mhp. She thought that there was a probationary ending symbolized by the "completion" of the censer activity in the hp. I was wondering if you have ever thought of that?

I have your study on the trumpets and I have not read it yet so I will save my questions re. the starting point until I have read your materials and at least give you a chance to say your piece before the questions come.

In reference to the ten plagues versus the seven plagues. In my mind the concept of ten as used in the Bible is a symbol of "the world", for me the concept of seven is a symbol of "completeness". I am not sure that there were 10 plagues or that there will be 7 last plagues. Signs and wonders yes, how many, I suspect more than we have understood there to be, but certainly the seven that we have identified in the Bible and the SOP.

Will talk to you later.

Greg,

I'm not sure what you mean by Daniel dates?

The placing of fire in the censer I see as beginning the MHP ministry. The casting down of the censer I see as the close of probation. EW uses the casting down in that way.

Whether there were ten or more than 10 plagues on Egypt, we still have the 7 last ones of the 10 recorded being not on God's people.

[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Bob Pickle ]

Bob:
I see you found the Daniel dates thread. Thanks for the input. I always feel insecure about dates, I feel like I can just about hang my hat on them and then along comes another interpretation and oops.
I just finished reading your trumpets study. Perhaps we should start a trumpets thread. My questions and comments might fit the trumpets thread better. I have little to say on the dual application concept. What do you think?

Sounds good to me. I just started one.

Bob, after a week's vacation, I re-read my last post, and I have to admit, I sound like the strident voice myself. My apologies for that unfriendly tone.

Before making some comments on this topic, I want to draw your attention to what Adventbeliever has posted under the 1888 thread in the SDA Church Issues section. Good material. I hope many more will join in that discussion.

Greg and Bob, we want the Holy Spirit to guide our minds as we study. Let's not close the door to His leading by attributing a point of view that we may not fully understand to Satan.

Bob, why do you think that the triumphal entry was not the same day as the cleansing? My memory of the gospel accounts is that the two events happened on the same day. Is there anything in the Bible or SOP you can point me to?

And Bob, what about this quote:

"Men rest satisfied with the light already received from God's word and discourage any further investigation of the Scriptures. They become conservative and seek to avoid discussion." T5 p. 706.2.

I stated above:

"We need to foster open enquiry regarding prophecy and not attempt to seal up the scroll with our own interpretations. The contemporaries of William Miller tried to do this and rather than sealing up the prophecies, keeping them from the people, they sealed themselves off from the influence of the Holy Spirit. October 22, 1844 came and went, and the conservative churchmen who preached peace and safety did not discern the movement of Christ into the Most Holy Place."

It is not only a possibility, but a certainty that if we stick to only established doctrine, we will not receive the latter rain that will issue from the sanctuary. Like the churchmen of Miller's day, Christ's work within the Holiest will be lost on us.

My main purpose in studying the prophecies from a fresh perspective is to understand better what Christ will do when the latter rain is poured out. For several years now I have been scouring the apocalyptic prophecies to see what Christ will do and how the church will respond. Like you, Bob, I have preconceived ideas on most topics, I am blind, and I have to ask for sight. Let's all admit our blindness.

But the latter rain is the most significant event in history. The sacrifice of Christ is the foundation for it, but the fruition of His work will be manifested in the latter rain. If that is true, lets look at the prophecies with the that in mind, and be ready to expect that the prophecies of this greatest of events will be given full coverage.

So, let me ask you, if the latter rain is accompanied by a blaze of light, won't the scroll be opened at the same time? The scroll of our individual cases is opened as the Holy Spirit enlightens our consciences of our character deficiencies. In the same way, the scroll of the corporate body of Christ is opened as it's collective character is tested corporately with the light of prophetic and spiritual truth.

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

In Acts 15 we see that the Apostle James with the help of other leading apostles successfully resolved the single most significant crisis within the New Testament Church. The crisis was precipitated by Judaizing Christians who were attempting to impose their peculiar views of the role of the ceremonial law on their fellow Gentile believers. James applied the prophecy of Amos 9 to the harvest of Gentile believers that the church witnessed under the ministry of the early rain. Here is the background of the event and the Apostle’s counsel:

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. . . .And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. . . .Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God.”

There are many other prophecies in the Old Testament that refer to the restoration of the Davidic kingdom. Most evangelical Christians are also aware of the one quoted by James above and along with others, evangelical Christians apply them to literal Israel. Adventists do not have an official position on the issue but we often counter the position of our evangelical friends with the argument that the Davidic promises were conditional on Israel’s obedience. But note above, that James applies the David promises not to literal Israel of the past (as SDA’s do) and not to literal Israel of the future (as evangelicals do), but to the conversion of the Gentiles under the early rain. If James can break ranks with all of us and apply the Davidic promises to the early rain harvest of the Gentiles, would it be wrong to make a second application of these same Davidic promises to the latter rain?

I say that we’re missing something important if we do not make that connection. Bob, and the rest, how if we take some time to examine the Davidic promises in light of the above application made by the Apostle, including and especially those parts of Revelation where Christ is portrayed as the Branch of David, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. The Lion will show his teeth most fully under the latter rain. And, praise God, the Lamb will be most fully revealed under that dispensation also.

Bob, I don't think I can say anything more than I have already posted concerning a future view of the seals and trumpets. What makes sense to me did not make sense to you. Hopefully we can both be at peace with our respective theologies. And time will tell soon enough the truth.

Mark, can you please restate your thoughts on the early rain and the latter rain. Or maybe you can start a new thread, if one hasn't already been started. Thanx.

Mike, I agree with you that the trumpets have a future application, but I place them before the close of probation. I do the same with the seals, and I think they cover the same pre-close-of-probation period.

Above I am saying that both the seals and the trumpets have their complete fulfilment during the latter rain, and part of the evidence of this is contained in the Davidic promises which are also linked to the prophecies regarding Zion, the location of the City of David, and these in turn, are linked to the 144,000.

The 144,000 stand with the Lamb, not on Mount Moriah, the temple mount, but on Mount Zion, the location of the City of David. Revelation 14:1-5. They are perfected, the latter rain having done its work.

Does that help Mike?

When I'm able to spare the time, I'll make some comments on Bob's new thread regarding the trumpets and you're questions on the first part of Revelation 8.

For now, I think that this subject is in the right location, and I hope you'll join us Mike in exploring the dual applications of the Davidic prophecies.

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Mark,

Apologies accepted.

Triumphal entry on Sunday; cleansing on Monday: Mk. 11:11, 15; 3SP 17; DA 581.

5T 706: I am all for investigating further and discussing it, as you can probably tell from the fact that I do present new and unheard-of-before ideas. And I really don't care about "established doctrine" that was established by man. But I think it is wrong when we cast doubt upon "established doctrines" that have been established by God.

Take for instance E. J. Waggonner. Jesus said point blank that there would be no marrying in the new earth. Well, he thought he had found a way to prove that there would be, and that that person might be someone different than your present spouse, and that you could have a spiritual relationship with them now.

Whether he repented of his speculation after Ellen White wrote him I don't know, but he eventually found himself divorced over the matter.

It is an absolute certainty that if we don't stick with the established doctrines that have been established by God, we cannot receive the latter rain.

What you said about the scroll seems to combine a couple of the ways that Ellen White used the phrase. Feel free to elaborate further.

On James' use of Amos, the Davidic promises have always been partly unconditional. It is referring to the restoration of the house of David when Christ becomes king.

As far as the Gentiles go, we don't have to look for a dual application of this prophecy. It was 3 1/2 years after the early rain started before the Gentiles started being gathered in. That gathering in hasn't ceased and won't cease until the close of probation. So Amos' prophecy has been in process of fulfillment for almost 2000 years.

Mike,

As I said before, I just wanted to see how you would relate a future application to the fact that the intro to the seals refers to a time when every creature alive in the entire universe is praising God, and the intro to the trumpets refers to a time before 1844, before the coals are put in the censer. But if you don't care to respond, that's all right.

Thanks Bob for the references to the triumphal entry. You’re right that Christ cleansed the temple on the day after his triumphal entry. Sister White makes some statements in the Desire of Ages that confirm the gospel account that from the time of his triumphal entry, Christ assumed a kingly authority that he had never demonstrated before. So the final four days before His crucifixion are especially significant and are worthy of special attention, especially in light of the fact that they seem to have their antitype in the lamb being set aside from the 10th day forward.

Above I quoted from Sister White about the dangers of following conservative churchmen. Bob contends that because he has some original ideas that he is not one of these. He has mentioned above that Waggoner missed the mark on the divorce issue and cites this an example of how one can fall off the path. But the test of whether we are one of those who are attempting to shut out light that is being imparted by the Holy Spirit is not whether we have some original thoughts, but whether we are opened to the leading of the Spirit.

In the posts of Adventbeliever on the 1888 message under the SDA Church Issues section, we have the strongest examples of those who were opened to the Holy Spirit and those who were not. I have to ask myself which camp I fall into. Today there are still those who resist the 1888 message by attempting to discredit the messengers, bringing out the weaknesses of Jones and Waggoner and their ultimate apostasy. But one of the tests of whether we are opened to God’s leading is how we accept the message that heaven sent at that time. If we focus on the weaknesses and apostasy of the messenger, we are imbibing the spirit of those who have much to answer for in keeping the light of truth away from the church.

One of the tactics that these individuals always use is the contention that they are staying with “established doctrine”. But this is a cloak for refusing to accepting new light that builds on established doctrine. There will always be these two camps - those who will advance in truth, and those who will not.

If I could see some evidence that any of my thoughts would be given a fair hearing with Bob, I would be happy to continue discussing them. But I’ve introduced several ideas, such as the one above on the Davidic promises, and again Bob has dismissed this one out of hand. He has ignored the main point that the latter rain is the culmination of all apocalyptic prophecy and the Davidic promises will be fulfilled at that time.

I could carry on with the Davidic prophecies that have both an early and a latter rain application. But since Bob started this thread with the purpose of opposing dual applications, it would be better respect his opinion and to move to another thread.

A final word. Bob, I respect your thoroughness and your scholarship. I hope we will eventually come to the place where we have more agreement. If I can summarize, you think that all dual applications are potentially dangerous. I think that descriptions of the latter rain, end time events and our marching orders are contained within many of the prophecies that we place in the past. So it is understandable that we view these things as non-negotiables.

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]

Mark, thank you for clarifying those thoughts for me. I also believe that the seals will be fulfilled again before the close of probation - but - it looks as though only the first 5 seals will be fulfilled before probation closes, and that the next two happen afterwards.

But the trumpets, it seems to me, will be fulfilled again only this time after probation closes, as seems to be indicated by the casting down of the censer.

You have probably noticed from the 1888 thread that I'm still struggling with your suggestion that the latter rain has been continuously falling since the late 1880's. Which is why I'm having a hard time accepting other ideas based on this premise.

Bob, you probably realize that I do not interpret Rev 5:13 and 8:3,4 the same way you do. Which is one of the many reasons why we haven't been able to see eye to eye on a future application of the seals and trumpets.

I do not believe that Rev 5:13 is describing a post-millennial festival of praising God. I see it as happening before the seals are opened. Thus the wording you interpret to mean that the evil angels are praising God too, I take to mean that John saw beings everywhere expressing their gratitude that Jesus is worthy and about to open the seals - and not that they are thankful years later it's already a done deal.

And Rev 8:3,4 I see as a whole including verse 5. The entire context of this passage is concerned with events surrounding the use of the golden censer on the day of atonement. On that day the veil was pulled away exposing the MHP. During this time there was nothing dividing the HP and the MHP, essentially turning the temple into a single room. Under these circumstances one would be able to see the furnishings of both apartments at the same time.

Therefore, it makes sense that John should see the altar of incense on the day of atonement, especially considering it stood directly in front of the ark of the covenant now that the veil was drawn aside. That, on the day of atonement, Jesus would place incense on the altar on His way into the MHP, and that He would take coals from it on His way back out, only makes sense to me.

But to say that Rev 8:3,4 describes Jesus performing the daily in the HP until 1844, and verse 5 pictures Him casting down the censer when probation closes just doesn't make sense to me personally. The high priest did not use the censer on a daily basis in the HP. It was used on the day of atonement as a portable incense burner so that the prayers of God's people could attend the high priest while in the MHP.

Thus, the fact this censer is in use in Rev 8:3-5 clearly indicates that Jesus is involved with issues associated with the day of atonement beginning in 1844 and ending with the close of probation, at which time the trumpets are sounded. Also, I do not associate the voices, thunderings, lightnings, and the earthquake mentioned in Rev 8:6 with the 7th plague. I believe like in Rev 4:5 John saw these signs the way an orchestra introduces a new section with a bang.

Mark,

Could you please share a Davidic prophecy that unequivocally found a fulfillment in the "early rain" rather than the entire Christian era?

Mike,

Your last post was excellent because it pinpointed specific points. I think that is very helpful.

Regarding Rev. 5:13, do you have any biblical examples where "every creature" can refer to a few rather than most or all?

Even during the plagues most are blaspheming God rather than praising Him, so if 5:13 takes place this side of eternity, "every creature" can't mean "every." It could only mean a small minority.

Regarding 8:3-5, let's set aside our opinions on the trumpets and just look at the passages. Lev. 16 has the high priest putting coals of fire in the censer on the way into the MHP, not on the way out. Lev. 16 doesn't have the high priest burning incense on the golden altar at all. Rev. 8:3-5 doesn't have the Angel using the censer at all until vs. 5, even though it was part of the beginning of the Yom Kippur services.

If we just use the Bible and keep our ideas out of it, how can Rev. 8:3-4 refer to a MHP ministry? Must we assume that John wrote it down wrong, that the Angel was really burning incense in the censer, not on the altar? Isn't it much more logical to have the MHP ministry come in in vs. 5 rather than vs. 3?

I agree about our preconceived ideas getting in the way in our search for truth. If I had allowed my preconceived ideas to get in my way, I would have rejected the Sabbath truth and wouldn't even have become a SDA.

We should be reading the Word with an open mind seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit who's function is to guide us into all truth. Of course, I did try to prove them wrong about the Sabbath through the Word, however, my mind was open enough that the Holy Spirit was able to reveal to me the truth about the Sabbath as well as about other things.

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Bob, everybody John saw in vision was thankful Jesus is worthy to open the seals, that is, there wasn't one being in that crowd that wasn't thoroughly thankful. To suggest that the word "every" in Rev 5;13 must absolutely mean everyone ever born or created since the beginning of time is limiting the scope of scripture.

Also, the fact that they were thankful Jesus is worthy to open the seals BEFORE He began to open them, clearly indicates that this praise festival happens before they are opened.

Does Leviticus cover every detail there is to know about the earthly sanctuary and its services? Obviously it doesn't. Not even the entire Bible covers every detail. Which is why we must often reference other Jewish writings to get the clearest understanding. But what the Bible does say about it is sufficient enough for us to understand the vital truths concerning it.

Just as other daily services were performed on the day of atonement, so it is obvious from the account in the Revelation that one of the daily functions included burning incense in the HP. The high priest was all over the place on the day of atonement. He didn't enter the MHP once and stay in there all day. Nevertheless, everything he accomplished on that day was associated with the MHP, even though his duties involved the outer court and the HP as well.

Mike,

Please re-read Rev. 5:13.

quote:

---

And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

---

Notice that it doesn''t say anything about praising the Lamb since He is worthy.

While it amy not mean everyone that has ever been created or born, it does mean everyone that is alive on earth at the time the verse takes place.

Notice that I just avoided interpretations and dealt with just what the verse says.

While Lev. 16 may not say everything that happed on Yom Kippur, all we have to go by is what it does say.

Ellen White is explicit that the work in the HP ceased when the high priest was engaged in the yearly work.

Thus we really have no grounds for saying that the high priest during the yearly service on Yom Kippur still offered incense on the golden altar, or that he put coals from off the altar in the censer at the end of the services as well as at the beginning.

Bob, thank you for those insights. I guess I wasn't reading verse 13 as an isolated text, rather I am reading it in the context of the entire passage. If chapter 5 isn't exclusively dealing with the fact Jesus is worthy to open the seals - then what is it talking about instead?

Historically speaking Jesus began opening the seals during the apostolic church, thus whatever is meant by what John was shown in verse 13 probably has something to with how created beings everywhere felt about Jesus' qualifications to open the seals. Which will continue to be true throughout eternity. That is, we will always be thankful for the reasons why Jesus was worthy to open the seals.

Besides what does the phrase "under the earth" and "in the sea" mean anyhow? Here's where it appears in the KJV:

Phil 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

I can understand beings that live in heaven and on earth, but what kind of beings live "under the earth" and "in the sea"? Is Paul and John talking about the animals that live under the earth and in the sea? Do they also praise God? I know that Bible often personifies the things of nature and depicts them praising God, which includes everything from plants to animals.

If so, then what does this say about Rev 5:13? In Rev 5:3 was John disappointed that not even the animals "under the earth" were qualified to open the seals?

Mike,

Excellent question. I've wondered abou the "under the earth" part too.

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"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." Revelation 5:13.

The great controversy is ended. Sin and sinners are no more. The entire universe is clean. One pulse of harmony and gladness beats through the vast creation. From Him who created all, flow life and light and gladness, throughout the realms of illimitable space. From the minutest atom to the greatest world, all things, animate and inanimate, in their unshadowed beauty and perfect joy, declare that God is love. (GC 678)

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It seems pretty apparent that Rev. 5:13 is talking about every last creature in creation.

But what about the opening of the seals? No man? The text literally says "non one," which sometimes means just "no one." In this passage it may involve the angels as well. I favor the idea that the living and the dead are under consideration as well, thus no one under the earth was worthy either.

Simply put, nothing anywhere could open the seals, not even the Lamb, at that point. The Lamb had to overcome, be slain, before He was worthy. Thus the passage itself indicates that the scenes in heaven in Rev. 5 concern something that occurred around Christ's death.

I am more inclined to believe that the phrase "under the earth" refers to dead people in the grave. I truly doubt John actually thought that if no one else was worthy to open the seals then at least a plant, animal or even an atom might be found worthy. I'm quite sure John thought that maybe a deceased worthy somebody could be resurrected to open the seals.

As it turns out opening the seals was nothing more than the unfolding of history. What's the big deal? Nothing major was revealed that Jesus hadn't already predicted in Matthew 24. So why all the fuss? What am I missing here? Obviously there is something more important than Jesus opening the seals and revealing it's contents. But what?

By the way, Sister White quoted Rev 5:13 in another context other than at the end of time. Note this passage:

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, February 4, 1890, paragraph 5
"The disciple John declares from the Isle of Patmos, "I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne, and the beasts, and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever." He who is worthy of all this honor is our Saviour, the One who only can save us from our sins."

If you read the context of this quote she is talking about Jesus saving us from our present life of sin.

Mike,

The words of the praise of Rev. 5:13 might be said at any time, but the verse is specifically pointing to a time when "every creature" will be praising God.

It really isn't for us to question what is the big deal in Jesus repeating material from Mat. 24. Our job is to accept what He says.

But we do have an answer to your question. The seals primarily depict the apostasy of the church and the subsequent slaughter of God's people.

We could ask regarding a number of places in Scripture, why is this repeated here when it already is written there?

Okay, it looks as though we've reached another empasse regarding the timing and context of Rev 5:13. I believe it describes "every creature" or being John saw in vision praising God because Jesus is worthy and about to open the seals. Whereas you're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, it describes everyone everywhere praising God sometime after the millennium.

Also, I didn't mean to imply that the duplication repeated in the seals was unnecessary or questionable. But rather I was trying to dig deeper by asking - What is so relevant about the seals that only Jesus was worthy to open them? That is, what more can we learn about the seals by exploring this question? Because in my mind they don't reveal anything new that Jesus hadn't already revealed in Matthew 24.

Therefore I am assuming there is something more about them that we're missing. Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to set you up or to trick you into accepting a future view of the seals. It's just that I'm trying to understand why such a fuss was made about opening the seals. If they had remained closed, like the 7 thunders, would we have been the worse off?

And I'm not trying to second guess God, or question the wisdom of repeating the information already clearly revealed in Matthew 24. I'm just wondering if there's anything we can learn by trying discern why opening the seals was so important, since not opening them might not have made any difference anyhow - in light of the fact that most of the information had already been recorded by Matthew, Mark and Luke. And the same would hold true for both the historical and a future view.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

I think that Jesus' ability to open the seals is a statement of His Godhood. I also think it is another way of stating something like Rev 10:1-3 and Daniel 10:5-6. Heaven was declaring the glory of Jesus to reign over history.

I think that we also tend to get carried with specificity. We sometimes attempt to read more in to the text than the text has to say. A summary of Rev 5 is God is good, the Lamb has come to rule over history, praise and glory to the Lamb for ever and ever.

Mike (and Greg),

Why all the fuss? Too much specificity?

I believe the intro to the seals says what it says in the way it says it for a specific reason: it sets the parameters for interpreting the seals.

First, no one was found worthy. That tells us that that verse takes place before Christ died and was resurrected. Only after His death and resurrection was He worthy. So we can date His taking of the book in 31 AD.

Please note that in the beginning of Rev. 5, Jesus was NOT worthy to open the book.

Secondly, John didn't write that every creature he saw in vision was praising God. He wrote that every creature was praising God. Ellen White unmistakably applies this verse to after sin is over. It does not appear to me that she is just using the language of the verse. Rather, it appears that she is definitely applying the verse to that period in the future.

Thus the only conclusion I can come to is that the seals begin in 31 AD and end at the end.

It just seems odd to me that Jesus had already demonstrated His Lordship over history and the future when He clearly spelled things out in Mat 24. This He did before the seals even existed as a prophecy and before He was found worthy to open the seals. Jesus knows the end from the beginning, so it seems inconceiveable to me that there was a time when He didn't know what was contained in the seals.

Mike,

The issue is not whether Jesus knew what was in the sealed book or not. The issue was whether He was worthy to loose the seals and open the book. It was His "prevailing," to use the language of the chapter, that made Him worthy to loose and open, even though He already knew what was within. Before He prevailed, before He was the Lamb slain, He was not worthy.

That is an interesting thought, God was not worthy. I say that with the knowledge that Jesus is Jehovah God.

Lest I be misunderstood, I'll add that Jesus was indeed worthy in many ways to do many things, but He was not worthy to loose the seals till after His death and resurrection.

I understand you're trying to establish the starting point for the seals by linking when Jesus was worthy to open them, but it feels like slippery ground to call into question the eternal nature of Jesus' worthiness. I think there is plenty of evidence for a starting date of AD 31 without casting doubt upon the everlasting worthiness of our Lord.

But the main question we're dealing with, unless I got lost along the way, is whether or not the seals also have a future dual application. I maintain yes, and you insist no. Does that sum it up correctly?

Mike,

You are correct. And this question is one of the reasons why.

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Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

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The text plainly says that Jesus was worthy because He was slain and had redeemed them. That's what it says, and we just have to accept it.

That being so, any piotential future application needs to somehow harmonize with the fact that much of chapter 5 is a picture of the ascension.

This takes me back to Rev 13:8 where it plainly says that Jesus was slain from the foundation of world, thus His worthiness to open the seals has been a reality since from eternity past. This point doesn't contradict the fact that from a historical stance the seals began to be fulfilled in the first century anno domini. That is clearly established.

But now comes the "however" part of my thinking. Rev 5 does not emphatically disallow a future fulfillment based on the supposed timing of Jesus' worthiness to open the seals. To insist on such a thing is to question the eternal and transcendant worthiness of Jesus - something I'm not willing to do.

Rev 5 simply establishes the point that Jesus is worthy to open the seals and it lists His substitutionary death as one of the many reasons why. But it would be stretching things to say this reason also identifies the starting point of the prophecy. If it were then it could be argued that it began at the foundation of the world. Which in a general sense I guess that could be true.

Rev 5 doesn't specify when Jesus began opening the seals. Even if you use the date AD 31 it still doesn't say how long after that time the prophecy began to be fulfilled. Without a definite prophetic start date this prophecy cannot be classified as a time prophecy, and is therefore open for a dual application.

Does that make sense?

You've raised some good points.

It is true that Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. And yet Rev. 5 pictures a time when Jesus was not worthy to loose the seals, because no one in heaven or in earth was worthy. Then, after Jesus was literally slain, He was worthy to loose the seals. So we must be looking at Calvary, not the foundation of the world, in chapter 5.

You are correct that this does not pinpoint the starting point of the seals. It only tells us when the earliest point can be. The seals could not be opened before 31 AD.

We do have other Scriptures which tell us that the 1st seal was loosed at Pentecost.

Could it happen again? I don't see how chapter 5 can happen again. If Christ became worthy to loose the seals because of Calvary, then it becomes hard to say today that no one is worthy now to loose the seals. It seems that Christ only needs to die once to buy the right to loose the seals.

Could chapter 6 happen again? We would then have a 2000 year time gap between chapter 5 and chapter 6, and it is hard to imagine that such can be.

What do you think?

I'm not sure Rev 5 would have us conclude that when a "man" was sought to open the seals that Jesus had not yet proven Himself worthy by dying on the cross. But that the seals were opened and began to be fulfilled sometime after Jesus paid our penalty is the most likely interpretation.

A 2000 year gap? Not from my point of view. The historical application clearly covers those 2000 years. And a future view does not take away from those facts, but rather builds upon them by describing future events using most of the same symbolisms. But I think we've already agreed to disagree about that?

"Man" is supplied by the translators. The Greek merely says "no one," which grammatically can include Jesus, and contextually must.

Are there 7 seals or 14? If we have a future fulfillment, then there must be 7 historical seals and 7 future seals. That makes 14.

Is there 1 sealed book with 14 seals or 2 sealed books with 7 seals a piece?

If I remember right, you see this a little differently, but most folk would conclude who wanted a second fulfillment that part of the 6th and 7th seals in both fulfillment would overlap. So it would be like Christ is unsealing two books simultaneously, and they get done about the same time.

The word "man" is supplied by the translators? It's not italicized in my KJV Bible. But either way I have a hard time imagining John looking around the throne room and noticing the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and then concluding lamentably that he saw "no one" worthy to open the seals. Somehow that just doesn't ring right with me. Do you see what I mean?

If indeed the seals are still as of today only partially fulfilled then there can be no future application of them. But as I have suggested before it is entirely possible the last half of the 6th and the 7th seals were fulfilled by 1844 same as the trumpets. So, there are only 7 seals which are repeated in future. It's not quite as irrational as you tried to point out.

"No man" in Rev. 5:2, 3 is a pronoun: oudeis. There is no Greek word for "man" in the text.

John wept much. In other words, he cried a long time because no one in heaven was worthy.

The passage indicates that Jesus was not standing there. He didn't arrive until vs. 6.

If the 6th seal had an historicist fulfillment before 1844, what do the kings of the earth calling upon the rocks and mtns. mean? To hide them from the face of the Father and the Lamb?

And, when will a futurist fulfillment occur? If we place the entire 6th seal at the 2nd coming, then we run into the problem already mentioned of having the greatest earthquake happen after the darkness when the 6th seal says an earthquake happens before the darkness.

Okay, here we go again. It might be best if we just admit that we don't see eye to eye on dual application of the Revelation. You are convinced beyond change that the prophecies of the Revelation cannot have a dual application, and I am willing to allow that they can be applied in future without undermining the historical view.

I'm not trying to dodge your question, it's just that we've already discussed these questions in this thread several pages ago. And it might be redundant to repeat them again, since the record still exists.

Is there any other point we can discuss?

The only part I remember already discussing is the timing of the earthquake. I think you said that the timing wasn't important.

I don't remember discussing the kings of the earth, etc., calling for the rocks to fall on them before 1844.

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It might be best if we just admit that we don't see eye to eye on dual application of the Revelation.

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I think that is understood.

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You are convinced beyond change that the prophecies of the Revelation cannot have a dual application, and I am willing to allow that they can be applied in future without undermining the historical view.

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Actually, it may be that you are convinced beyond change that they can be applied in the future, while I am willing that they don't have a dual application.

I'm looking for a future fulfillment based on a solid, sound exegesis. Haven't found one yet. A future fulfillment that requires not taking the events described in the order described, as in the timing of the earthquake, is not a solid, sound exegesis. We don't end up with something solid that we can preach to the world.

Have you tried proving to a non-SDA how the first four trumpets symbolize the fall of Western Rome? I believe and have faith in our historical interpretation, but I must admit that nothing else seems more contrived and more forced to fit. It is so unnatural.

In this same way I believe we can "force" the last half of the 6th seal and the 7th seal to fit in 1844. The difference in timing is not a problem for me. The similarities are close enough to warrant comparison.

When John was told to prophesy again without repeating the time portions (Rev 10:6,11) I believe we have all the justification we need to reapply the seals and the trumpets - indeed, I believe it's our mandate, our obligation.

I understand you do not believe this way, but to each his own. Your unwillingness to reapply the seals and trumpets, and all your efforts to discredit any attempt to do so, does not discourage me. I have met more people willing to explore ways to fulfill our obligation to prophesy again that it is obvious I'm not a lone wolf.

It's been interesting studying with you, but it seems as though we have reached an impasse. Is there anything else we can study?

It's not the first time we've reached an impasse.

Consider prayerfully what you wrote in your last post.

1. You believe the historical interpretation of the trumpets, and yet you feel it seems contrived, forced to fit, and unnatural. How then can you really believe it? Or if you really believe it, how can you make such statements?
2. I previously asked how the kings of the earth calling for the rocks and mountains to fall on them was fulfilled in 1844. In this reply you say that it was, but you still haven't answered my question.
3. You claim that John being told to prophesy again is a mandate to find dual fulfillments, but the text doesn't say that at all. Is not this like someone saying that Acts 20:7 says that the early church kept Sunday?
4. You speak again of my unwillingness to consider another fulfillment of the seals or trumpets, even though I said in my last post that I'm looking for something based on solid exegesis.

You conclude by asking if there is anything else we can study. Do you have a suggestion? But I think regardless of the topic, we'll run into the same problem again and again.

Whatever interpretation of anything that anyone suggests, I am going to test it to see if it is sound. And that means that I will likely come up with some sort of question that needs answering, like how the kings of the earth calling for the rocks to fall on them happened in 1844. If whoever would rather not deal with questions like that, then there is nothing ahead but impasses.

I cannot accept theories that are not true to the Word of God, that cannot stand up to scrutiny. If the suggester of an interpretation wishes not to subject his ideas to scrutiny, that is his privilege, but it does result in an impasse.

1. By faith I believe in our historical application. But I believe in many ways a future application is most likely the primary one.

2. Many people, high and low, rejected the Millerite message. That constitutes a fulfillment of Rev 6:17.

3. John was told to prophesy again. I believe that mandates a dual applicatin of the seals and trumpets.

1. Future application is the primary one? This is part of the problem I have with this kind of thing. Do you confine this to just the seals and trumpets?

As you pointed out before, a future application of the trumpets can't have certain aspects ever be fulfilled, as in the time prophecy part of Rev. 10. How can a future application be a primary one if parts of the prophecy can't be fulfilled?

2. How does people rejecting the Millerite message constitute folk crying for therocks and mountains to fall upon them?

3. I know you believe this. But please explain how you can exegetically get such a meaning out of the verse in question. That's what I am looking for. Mere assertions or opinions or convictions aren't enough for me. I have to see it in the Word or in the SOP.

I have just a quick thought on the question of why, or if possible, that Jesus wasn't worthy to open the seals before His life, death, and resurrection here on earth.

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Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

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Wrap your minds around the possibilities and implications of what Paul is saying here. 1) Jesus had to learn obedience through suffering. 2) After Jesus was made perfect he became the author of eternal salvation.

The implications of this are staggering to me. Jesus wasn't naturally obedient, but had to learn obedience through suffering. And he wasn't the author of salvation until after He was made perfect by learning obedience through suffering. You can try to tear these two texts apart, but the two thoughts are tied together through the conjunction and. They are made into a single thought by that three letter word. From what this means to me Jesus was made perfect by learning obedience through suffering, and it is this that makes Him the author of our salvation.

So, according to Paul maybe Jesus wasn't worthy to open the seals before this experience. There was, and is, no one in the universe with His distinctive experience and knowledge. Even His Father does not have the specific experiential knowledge that Jesus has.

Gary,

Interesting thoughts. I think you've hit on something, though I might word the "wasn't naturally obedient" statement a little differently.

I like what Ellen White writes in Education in the chapter "Bible Biographies" about David and Solomon. There is a discipline of sorrow and suffering that molds the character and prepares us for some position of service in God's work. The greater the position, the greater the sorrow. See page 151. Thanks to your post, I now have a biblical basis for the thoughts she presents in that section of the chapter.

Bob,

There is something else that I feel ties in closely with this subject. It is what Ellen White calls the "the science of salvation." A thorough study of this subject will reveal many of the ways that God uses to work with us, heal us from the scars of sin, shape our characters, etc.... Ellen White says, and I can't find the quote right now, that those who have been the most downtrodden and degraded by sin, when rejuvenated and brought back to their God-given human dignity will have a thorough understanding of this subject.

What does this have to do with Jesus and His worthiness to open the sealed book? In my estimation everything. In Jesus life of uninterrupted victory over temptation here He learned what it takes for humanity to be able to experience victory over sin. With His intimate knowledge of human nature as our Creator, and His knowledge of what it is to live as a human being in a world of sin and be victorious over sin, He has both the knowledge and experience to formulate the plan to redeem fallen man from the power and penalty of sin. While it is His sacrifice on Calvary that gives Him the right to save us, it is His victorious life that gave Him the ability to understand each and every aspect of working with humanity. If this cannot be described as a science, I don't know what could be. In this science is contained the power and understanding of creation, the personal understanding of what sin is and does, and what is involved in overcoming sin. This works with every part of the human being. It would take the understanding of human character development, the psychology of humanity--both before and after the fall--in all aspects of motivation, emotion, mental ability, and the interaction between mind and body.

Only He has this intimate understand of this process. No one else in the Universe has this. He is the only human/divine being in existance. In reading Revelation 5 we see that John wept when no one was found worthy to open the seals. Why? Why would John find this unutterably sad? It must have eternal consequences for someone, and be a negative consequence. As we proceed further into the chapter we see that the Lamb is praised for having wisdom and power and for purchasing men for God. All this is unmistakably the plan of salvation to me: the science of salvation. It is no wonder we are told we will study this for eternity and always have new vistas opening before our eyes.

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Gary K ]

I too appreciate this line of thought. However, let me add another text to the pot. Gen 3:22 says now that man has experienced sin - "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." This text introduces the idea that the Godhead (the "us") had an experiential knowledge of sin even BEFORE mankind sinned. The only way this can be true is if Rev 13:8 is true. That is, due to God's ability to "inhabit eternity" Jesus' Palestinean experience has been a reality for God since from before the foundation of the earth.

Now what do you think?

Mike,

This is all theoretical to me, so I don't feel real strongly one way or another about it, but I do find it interesting.

As to your thought of God inhabiting eternity, well, I think that the future could be seen by all members of the Godhead, but, seeing and knowing what would happen is much different than actual experience. Actual experience teaches us so many things that intellect alone cannot. It is one thing to say, Yes I know this is what happens, and another thing to live that experience.

Just as you and I can know with an intellectual knowledge, from what our wives have told us, what it is like to be a pregnant woman and give birth, we can still never truly know and understand this for we will never experience it. Many things can be learned by experience alone. The view from the inside is almost always different than what can be seen from outside. Now whether this is true for God or not, I don't know.

Mike,

One more thing in response to your text from Genesis. I don't necessarily see that this means that God had an experiental knowledge of what sin is and does in humanity. All it may mean is that man didn't know what evil was before, and God did.

The other thought that I see tieing into all of this is that until Jesus had lived, died and been resurrected the rest of the universe was still in some doubt as to the truth of controversy between the devil and God. It was at the crucifixcion that the devil was completely unmasked.

I lean toward Gary on this one. Part of the orthodox Trinity doctrine is that Jesus proceeded forth, was begotten, from the Father, and that the Holy Spirit proceeded forth from both of them, but since God is outside of time, the processions happened outside of time, so they always have existed.

I am therefore a bit prejudiced against the speculation that God is outside of time.

I once talked with a Lutheran minister about Luther's belief in soul sleep. He said that that was true, but since when we are resurrected we will be outside of time, the resurrection has already occurred for our loved ones.

You can do strange things with this outside-of-time stuff.

Okay, but I'm still willing to allow for the possibility that God "inhabits eternity" in a way that our human mind cannot comprehend. In my mind the Godhead possesses power and abilities within the context of time and space that we may never understand, not even after a zillion billion years of studying the truth about God. Personally I find that exciting. Eternity will never be boring. Amen.

God is definitely beyond our comprehension, now or throughout eternity.

By the way, the word "know" in Gen 3:22 implies that God had an intimate knowledge of "good and evil" before Adam and Eve fell into sin. This could be a reference to Michael's encounter with evil when Lucifer rebelled and war broke out in heaven, or it could be eluding to the fact that God inhabits eternity and therefore could be speaking of His future experience with sin as a human.

You never know, eh?

One thing we do know is that He declares the end from the beginning, and things that are not yet done.

this once active topic.

I think MM, your reading of Rev 10 where John is told to prophecy again is sound. If a revival among Adventists hinges to a large part on understanding the books of Daniel and Revelation better as Ellen White has said, we can expect to receive new insights into the prophecies. It seems likely to me that one of the main passages that is behind Ellen White's prophecy that the study of Daniel and Revelation will bring revival is this text - in other words she very likely understood this text as predicting the same revival that she spoke of.

PS, I haven't been active here for several weeks. I'm not able to participate much now or in the near future but let's keep praying for each other. And for those who are able to participate more than I can right now, here's a promise for you all: