Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?

Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?

God is not interested in revealing sinful habits.
He is interested in revealing to us his glory.

John, in light of the title of this thread, can I assume, then, that you believe God never reveals to us any of our sinful habits?

The following inspired insights teach us that the Holy Spirit reveals to us, during the long "patient, protracted process" (DA 172) of conversion, before we experience the miracle of rebirth, "every" one of our defective cultivated traits of character. Not one sinful habit is overlooked to be revealed after we are born again.

Admittedly, though, this experience is "rare". Many, "so many", people do not complete the process of conversion. The following quote bears this out.

Again, the following quotes make it clear that we are not born again with certain sinful habits in tact, with certain cultivated defective traits of character God is waiting to reveal to us at some later date.

It could be noted that there are two ways to reveal dust in the corner. Either one brings out the dust with everything that implies, or one brings light to the corner. Either way the dust is revealed.

I think Johns point can be restated as: God is more interested in lighting a candle than in cursing the darkness.

I also think this is the point made in SC 29.1 quoted by you above.

Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. (Rom 7.13)

Just here is a point on which many may err, and hence they fail of receiving the help that Christ desires to give them. They think that they cannot come to Christ unless they first repent, and that repentance prepares for the forgiveness of their sins. It is true that repentance does precede the forgiveness of sins; for it is only the broken and contrite heart that will feel the need of a Saviour. But must the sinner wait till he has repented before he can come to Jesus? Is repentance to be made an obstacle between the sinner and the Saviour? {SC 26.1}
The Bible does not teach that the sinner must repent before he can heed the invitation of Christ, "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28. It is the virtue that goes forth from Christ, that leads to genuine repentance. Peter made the matter clear in his statement to the Israelites when he said, "Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31. We can no more repent without the Spirit of Christ to awaken the conscience than we can be pardoned without Christ. {SC 26.2}
Christ is the source of every right impulse. He is the only one that can implant in the heart enmity against sin. Every desire for truth and purity, every conviction of our own sinfulness, is an evidence that His Spirit is moving upon our hearts. {SC 26.3}
Jesus has said, "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me." John 12:32. Christ must be revealed to the sinner as the Saviour dying for the sins of the world; and as we behold the Lamb of
27
God upon the cross of Calvary, the mystery of redemption begins to unfold to our minds and the goodness of God leads us to repentance. In dying for sinners, Christ manifested a love that is incomprehensible; and as the sinner beholds this love, it softens the heart, impresses the mind, and inspires contrition in the soul. {SC 26.4}


One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

As you see the enormity of sin, as you see yourself as you really are, do not give up to despair. It was sinners that Christ came to save. We have not to reconcile God to us, but--O wondrous love!--God in Christ is "reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. He is wooing by His tender love the hearts of His erring children. No earthly parent could be as patient with the faults and mistakes of his children, as is God with those He seeks to save. No one could plead more tenderly with the transgressor. No human lips ever poured out more tender entreaties to the wanderer than does He. All His promises, His warnings, are but the breathing of unutterable love. {SC 35.3}
When Satan comes to tell you that you are a
36
great sinner, look up to your Redeemer and talk of His merits. That which will help you is to look to His light. Acknowledge your sin, but tell the enemy that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" and that you may be saved by His matchless love. 1 Timothy 1:15. Jesus asked Simon a question in regard to two debtors. One owed his lord a small sum, and the other owed him a very large sum; but he forgave them both, and Christ asked Simon which debtor would love his lord most. Simon answered, "He to whom he forgave most." Luke 7:43. We have been great sinners, but Christ died that we might be forgiven. The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf. Those to whom He has forgiven most will love Him most, and will stand nearest to His throne to praise Him for His great love and infinite sacrifice. It is when we most fully comprehend the love of God that we best realize the sinfulness of sin. When we see the length of the chain that was let down for us, when we understand something of the infinite sacrifice that Christ has made in our behalf, the heart is melted with tenderness and contrition. {SC 35.4}

Amen Thomas

John and Thomas, you two seem to believe God does not reveal sinful cultivated habits before or after rebirth. Did I misunderstand you?

1. Does the love and light of God ignore or overlook defective traits of character?

2. Are sin and obedience non-issues?

Yes.

Based on among else the chapter from Steps to Christ which you also quoted from, it is clear that a man who encounters God becomes painfully aware of his own sin. However, it appears equally clear that this is more the result of the contrast between the holiness of God and the, well, unholiness of man, than a result of God writing a list and reading it to man.

Thus, mans encounter with God reveals sinful habbits, though not in the way that you apparently suggest.No. The light of God does not ignore sin, it reveals it. It is as Paul says about the law. Without it we would not know what sin is, but though the law is perfectly capable of doing this, its purpose, it will kill us unless we follow up its revelation with meeting the slain lamb at the altar.

Thus, the light of God reveals sin, and the love of God forgives it at the foot of the cross or at the altar with the slain lamb. (whichever metaphor you prefer) If sin and obedience was a non-issue, the cross would be a mockery. Now the cross was the most real event in history, and that shows the seriousness of sin.

Thomas, I really appreciated what you posted above. It was beautifully worded. Thank you. I am sorry my previous posts did not reflect the same cause and effect relationship between God's light and love and becoming aware of our sinful cultivated habits. I did not mean to imply that God reveals sinful habits in a vacuum devoid of His light and love.

............................

The following insights, taken line by line, in the order in which it appears, from one paragraph in SC 29, demonstrates the beautiful balance you articulated:

[1] One ray of the glory of God,

[2] one gleam of the purity of Christ,

[3] penetrating the soul,

[4] makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and

[5] lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.

[6] It makes apparent the unhallowed desires,

[7] the infidelity of the heart,

[8] the impurity of the lips.

[9] The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God,

[10] are exposed to his sight, and

[11] his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God.

[12] He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.

...........................

In light of all of the above, how do we answer the following questions?

1. Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits?

2. Does God somehow prevent the revelation of His light and love and glory and purity from initially exposing "to his sight" [see number 10 above] certain sinful habits, that is, cultivated defective traits of character which God plans on revealing to him later on when the timing is right?

3. If so, why?

According to what you've written in the past, the answer is yes. You've given smoking and polygamy as examples of this, and probably drinking (was Luther lost?). So the answer is not "if" but what all constitutes exceptions; that is, what things are similar in character so smoking, drinking, and polygamy.

However, the way you are phrasing the question is most unfortunate. It reminds me of the adversaries of Christ who phrased things in a certain way in an attempt to catch them.

As John pointed out, the issue is not God waiting to reveal sinful habits to us, but of God's revealing truth to us.

God reveals truth to us as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. The way you are phrasing things makes it sound as if God is on trial for some fault, rather than bringing out His graciousness and patience in dealing with us according to how we are ready and able to receive light from Him.

Just here is a point on which many may err, and hence they fail of receiving the help that Christ desires to give them. They think that they cannot come to Christ unless they first repent, and that repentance prepares for the forgiveness of their sins. It is true that repentance does precede the forgiveness of sins; for it is only the broken and contrite heart that will feel the need of a Saviour. But must the sinner wait till he has repented before he can come to Jesus? Is repentance to be made an obstacle between the sinner and the Saviour? {SC 26.1}
The Bible does not teach that the sinner must repent before he can heed the invitation of Christ, "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28. It is the virtue that goes forth from Christ, that leads to genuine repentance. Peter made the matter clear in his statement to the Israelites when he said, "Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31. We can no more repent without the Spirit of Christ to awaken the conscience than we can be pardoned without Christ. {SC 26.2} When Satan comes to tell you that you are a
36
great sinner, look up to your Redeemer and talk of His merits. That which will help you is to look to His light. Acknowledge your sin, but tell the enemy that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" and that you may be saved by His matchless love. 1 Timothy 1:15. Jesus asked Simon a question in regard to two debtors. One owed his lord a small sum, and the other owed him a very large sum; but he forgave them both, and Christ asked Simon which debtor would love his lord most. Simon answered, "He to whom he forgave most." Luke 7:43. We have been great sinners, but Christ died that we might be forgiven. The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf. Those to whom He has forgiven most will love Him most, and will stand nearest to His throne to praise Him for His great love and infinite sacrifice. It is when we most fully comprehend the love of God that we best realize the sinfulness of sin. When we see the length of the chain that was let down for us, when we understand something of the infinite sacrifice that Christ has made in our behalf, the heart is melted with tenderness and contrition. {SC 35.4}

And we will ever grow in our comprehension of His love for us.

Thomas, the quotes you posted in the response to the following questions imply you believe the Holy Spirit does indeed reveal "every" defective trait of character during the process of conversion before the miracle of rebirth occurs. Or, did I misunderstand you?

1. Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits?

2. Does God somehow prevent the revelation of His light and love and glory and purity from initially exposing "to his sight" [see number 10 above] certain sinful habits, that is, cultivated defective traits of character which God plans on revealing to him later on when the timing is right?

3. If so, why?

Did we read the same text?

Please explain.

SC 26.1 to me means that no, you would not have to have every defective trait revealed before you come to Christ, and SC 35.4 that for us to perfectly see the sinfullness of our sins, we would be required to prefectly see the love of God. And my belief has been that we will ever be seing Gods love more clearly than before.

Your answers, Thomas, do not address my questions. The quote I posted from SC 29 does not teach we must confess every sinful habit before we come to Christ. Instead, it teaches that knowing Jesus helps us understand which habits must be crucified.

She makes it clear that one ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be arguing that this quote does not teach that the glory of God and the purity of Jesus makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, that it does not teach that it lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

• 1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
  2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Your question MM is laid out as a fault-finding mission; which is as unlike to God's character as can be. It is because of this that we cannot agree with you.

Most certainly the light of the glory of God sets us free from sin and its power, in the most regenerative way. Spelling out faults is not regenerative. Scripture is a wonderful record of how much God passes by. This is not to say for us to be slothful; but diligence in fault-finding only leads to legalism, which is the pit of sin.

John, then how do you explain all the passages where God commands us to expel our sinful habits? Are you going easy on sin? What is so evil about searching ourselves, seeking sinful habits that need crucifying?

2 Corinthians
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Psalm
139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

DA 466
In the change that takes place when the soul surrenders to Christ, there is the highest sense of freedom. The expulsion of sin is the act of the soul itself. True, we have no power to free ourselves from Satan's control; but when we desire to be set free from sin, and in our great need cry out for a power out of and above ourselves, the powers of the soul are imbued with the divine energy of the Holy Spirit, and they obey the dictates of the will in fulfilling the will of God. {DA 466.4}

MM, if you read what John wrote, in his very last post, it explains your question. There's no need for him to explain anything; he already explained it. Just read his post!

Mike, I dont rely on your quote, Ive read the entire chapter.

MM: Are you going easy on sin?

No, rather I am speaking that which ends the continuation of sin.

MM: What is so evil about searching ourselves, seeking sinful habits that need crucifying?

Self-righteousness!

2 Corinthians
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

This is the point. We are admonished to examine whether we be “in faith” (not whether we have some sin-habit). We are admonished to know how Christ is in us (not whether we have some sin-habit). To start looking for sin is to become a reprobate.

Psalm
139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

1) At what time in his life did David pray this?
2) David did not say anything about searching himself; nor did he say that God was to reveal sin to him, but that God would lead him in the way everlasting. God knows the way to glory from where we are.
Have you seen and become a partaker of the glory of God?
Have you seen and become a partaker of all the glory of God?

The more we see the glory of God, the more we see that the essence of sin is: “looking for fault”.

• 1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
  2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

John, it sounds like you are soft on sin. The Bible reflects the fact that God is focused on saving us from our sinful habits. True, the law and love of God causes us to realize that the only way we can be saved from our sinful habits is by focusing on Jesus, but this is no way means God is soft on sin. I agree that God's law and love is what motivates us to abide in Jesus, to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

Ridding ourselves of sinful cultivated habits, however, is as important as maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. Resisting sinning, overcoming as Jesus overcame, is a key aspect of salvation. Not sinning is important. Not crucifying Christ afresh is essential.

It does not sound like you agree. "To start looking for sin is to become a reprobate." Again, to be successful, we must focus on Jesus. We cannot resist sinning by focusing on not sinning. Sin loses all its power and appeal at the cross.

Matthew
1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

John
8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

1 John
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1 John
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

JB: To start looking for sin is to become a reprobate.

MM: The following insight disagrees with your declaration:

TDG 83
We are not to pass on indifferently. We must inquire into the character of our thoughts and feelings, our tempers, purposes, words, and deeds. We are not safe unless we are constantly and successfully warring against our own sinful corruptions. We must consider whether we are an example of Christian holiness, whether we are in the faith. Unless we search diligently examining our hearts in the light of God's Word, self-love will prompt to a much better opinion of ourselves than we should have. {TDG 83.3}

Gal 2:15 We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we sought to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, is Christ a minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:
Rom 3:20 because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.

MM:John, it sounds like you are soft on sin.

You should read more carefully! John wrote:



This sounds like 1888 all over again. Jones and Waggoner presented justification by faith in Christ, and the old guard thought they were "soft on sin." But they were doing exactly what John has said, which was to speak of that which ends the continuation of sin, which is faith, not some theory based on sinful habits.

MM:The Bible reflects the fact that God is focused on saving us from our sinful habits.

God is focused on saving our souls by giving us Christ. The Bible reflects God's emphasis on revealing Himself to us. We are saved by faith.

Please consider the following SOP quote:



The whole purpose of Christ's mission on earth was the revelation of God. This is what is important. Not the revelation of sinful habits, but of God.

When one knows Christ, the heart is converted, and sinful habits die away as Christ becomes master. This is not "soft on sin," but the only way out!

Thomas, again, it sounds like you agree with me, that is, that the Holy Spirit, through a revelation of the law and love of God, saves us from our sinful habits, saves us so that we can be like Jesus, so that we can mature in the fruits of the Spirit. The passages you quoted indicate you believe it.

Tom, again, I agree with John that the Holy Spirit saves us from our sinful habits through a revelation of the law and love of God in the person of Jesus Christ. You and I, however, disagree as to the timing and degree we are saved from our sinful habits at the moment we complete the process of conversion.

John, Tom, and Thomas, it would help me if you answered the following questions in your own words and then use inspired quotes to substantiate your answers. It would also be helpful if you answered them the way you think I would answer them. I suspect we are misunderstanding each other. Thank you.

1. When do we begin the "patient, protracted process" (DA 172) of conversion?

2. When do we complete the "patient, protracted process" of conversion?

3. When do we experience the miracle of rebirth in relation to completing the "patient, protracted process" of conversion?

4. Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?

5. What do "I die daily" (1 Cor 15:31) and "stay converted" (OHC 215) mean in light of completing the process of conversion and walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man as a born again believer?

6. Is true, genuine conversion and rebirth common or "rare" (6BC 1075) among people professing to be Christians? If not, why not?

The revelation of sinful habits and the removal of them is not important?!! Hmmmm.... Are you sure you want to convey that message?

Let's take a closer look at the SOP quote you gave:

Q. What is the whole purpose of His mission on earth?
A. "to set men right".

Q. How did He go about fulfilling this mission?
A. "through the revelation of God".

Discussion: What does it mean to set men right? Wouldn't that include, among other things, the revelation of sin in man's life contrasted with the love and holiness of God, such that we seek to be closer to Him and for His cleansing power in our lives?

I see what appears to me to be wrong assumptions on both sides of the fence of this discussion.

One side assumes that by revealing and removing sin, they mean that one does it by his/her own power and excluding God out of the picture. One poster called it "self-righteous". This assumption is made despite the explicit commentary about accomplishing this by the power of God and His indwelling in us.

On the other side, I see looking to the revelation of God and becoming more like Him as "soft on sin", despite the commentary describing the means to cease from sin.

It seems to me that you both are probably talking about the two sides of the same coin, but they are the same coin. Both the revelation of God and the revelation of sin in our lives are important. It takes more than the mere mental ascent of what God is like and Who He is. This intellectual knowledge does us no good unless applied and lived in our lives. The revelation and removal of sin in our lives is accomplished by the power and indwelling of our God. I often ask Him to reveal things that have come between Him and I, that I may confess it and have it covered and removed by His shed blood, and that I may more fully yield myself to His Holy Spirit and live a Godly life by His power in me.

May God richly bless all of you with His love, power and presence. May we all become more like Him and live in mutual harmony, respect and love.


God Bless.

I believe that "the Holy Spirit, through a revelation of Jesus, saves us to a father-child relationship with God, saves us so that we can be like Jesus, so that we can mature in the fruits of the Spirit." (Note that someone who is mature in the fruits of the Spirit cannot at the same time be mature in the fruits of sin)Thomas: The day we become aware of the Holy Spirits work on us.

I dont know what you would say to this one if it is different than what I wrote.Thomas: The day when we surrender at the foot of the cross and declare Jesus our Lord and Saviour.

I suspect you would answere something like 'the day we no longer sin'.Thomas: Rebirth happens when we, at the foot of the cross, believe Gods promise.

I suspect that you again would say that this happens when we no longer sin, in other words, fullfill the law perfectly... Thomas: Not sure.Thomas: Considering that this verse stands in the context of the ressurection... And that with verses such as 22:For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... We can speculate on this, but we can never put any numbers on it.

Den, you seem to have difficulty understanding what I'm saying (for which I may be at fault; I'm not blaming you here, just making an observation) So rather than respond directly to your post, let me ask, what do you think I'm trying to say? There's only 4 pages in this thread, so please take the time to read what I've posted here. Also please read what John has written, because I agree completely with John. Then please summarize what you think MM is saying and what we are saying, and I'll jump back in.

Thanks!

1. When do we begin the "patient, protracted process" (DA 172) of conversion?

At birth.

2. When do we complete the "patient, protracted process" of conversion?

At death. (conversion, like sanctification, is the work of a life time; we don't stop being converted when we first give ourselves to Christ.)

3. When do we experience the miracle of rebirth in relation to completing the "patient, protracted process" of conversion?

When we believe.

4. Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?

According to you, yes, He waits for smoking, polygamy, and drinking(?) (was Luther lost?). I don't think you know why. Your answer is good enough for me, although I think your list is short.

5. What do "I die daily" (1 Cor 15:31) and "stay converted" (OHC 215) mean in light of completing the process of conversion and walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man as a born again believer?

The same thing they mean when one first accepts Christ.

6. Is true, genuine conversion and rebirth common or "rare" (6BC 1075) among people professing to be Christians? If not, why not?

The first part depends upon the definitions involved. The second part (the "why not") is because of unbelief.

Tom, Are you stating that true christian conversion can never be spoken of in past tense but only ever in present tense? Should for instance Enoch walking with God be descibed as a 365 year old conversion experience?

Thomas:Tom, Are you stating that true christian conversion can never be spoken of in past tense but only ever in present tense?

No, I'm not saying this, which should be evident since I spoke of my own conversion.

Should for instance Enoch walking with God be descibed as a 365 year old conversion experience?

I'm reacting to MM's idea that God reveals to us all of our sinful habits before we are converted. Conversion, as he conceives of it, is sanctification. Sanctification is the process of a life time. I'm arguing against the idea that God keeps revealing sinful habits until there's no more left, and then we're "converted."

DB: One side assumes that by revealing and removing sin, they mean that one does it by his/her own power and excluding God out of the picture. One poster called it "self-righteous". This assumption is made despite the explicit commentary about accomplishing this by the power of God and His indwelling in us.

MM: Den, who is advocating this idea?

MM: Thomas, again, it sounds like you agree with me, that is, that the Holy Spirit, through a revelation of the law and love of God, saves us from our sinful habits, saves us so that we can be like Jesus, so that we can mature in the fruits of the Spirit. The passages you quoted indicate you believe it.

TV: I believe that "the Holy Spirit, through a revelation of Jesus, saves us to a father-child relationship with God, saves us so that we can be like Jesus, so that we can mature in the fruits of the Spirit." (Note that someone who is mature in the fruits of the Spirit cannot at the same time be mature in the fruits of sin)

MM: The difference between my description and yours is you exclude the law and sinful habits. But it appears that both are implied because you qualify your description by adding being mature in the fruits of the Spirit means sinful habits do not exist. Or, did I misunderstand your addendum?

1. When do we begin the "patient, protracted process" (DA 172) of conversion?

Thomas: The day we become aware of the Holy Spirits work on us. I dont know what you would say to this one if it is different than what I wrote.

MM: I agree, but I would also add that it includes confessing, in light of the cross, our sinful habits as the Holy Spirit reveals them to us. Just being aware of the fact the Holy Spirit has been working on us from birth isn’t enough. That’s true of everyone, that is, the Holy Spirit has been working on everyone since their birth.

2. When do we complete the "patient, protracted process" of conversion?

Thomas: The day when we surrender at the foot of the cross and declare Jesus our Lord and Saviour. I suspect you would answere something like 'the day we no longer sin'.

MM: I agree with you, but I would hasten to add it also involves crucifying our old man habits of sin. “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom 6:6, 7) This is not the same thing as saying “the day we no longer sin”.

Paul explains how the old man dies and the new man replaces it. “That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.” (Eph 4:22-24)

3. When do we experience the miracle of rebirth in relation to completing the "patient, protracted process" of conversion?

Thomas: Rebirth happens when we, at the foot of the cross, believe Gods promise. I suspect that you again would say that this happens when we no longer sin, in other words, fullfill the law perfectly...

MM: I agree rebirth occurs when we complete the “patient, protracted process” of conversion. However, this is not the same things as saying “we no longer sin … fulfill the law perfectly.” There are conditions to the promise, “Go, and sin no more.” Not only must we 1) complete the process of conversion and 2) experience rebirth, we must also 3) abide in Jesus - daily, continually, moment by moment - in order to fulfill the command, “Go, and sin no more.” Again, the conditional promise is – “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” (1 John 3:6)

4. Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?

Thomas: Not sure.

MM: Fair enough. It's a question I believe each person should seek diligently to answer.

5. What do "I die daily" (1 Cor 15:31) and "stay converted" (OHC 215) mean in light of completing the process of conversion and walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man as a born again believer?

Thomas: Considering that this verse stands in the context of the ressurection... And that with verses such as 22:For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive...

MM: Amen! Paul makes this point in Romans, too, in the context of crucifying our old man habits of sin. Thus, “I die daily” and “stay converted” mean, to me, that we choose moment by moment to abide in Jesus, the results of which are described above, namely, we are able to “go, and sin no more.” Which is also a conditional promise. The condition is – abide in Jesus. We cannot “go, and sin no more” if we are not abiding in Jesus.

Romans
6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

TE: I'm reacting to MM's idea that God reveals to us all of our sinful habits before we are converted. Conversion, as he conceives of it, is sanctification. Sanctification is the process of a life time. I'm arguing against the idea that God keeps revealing sinful habits until there's no more left, and then we're "converted."

MM: Actually, Tom, I believe the processes of conversion and sanctification are two different processes. We embark upon the process of sanctification the moment we complete the process of conversion, the instant we are born again and begin abiding in Jesus.

Sanctification is what Jesus accomplishes in and through us on earth. It has nothing to do with sinning and repenting and forgiveness (justification accommodates these aspects of salvation).

Sanctification is the process of growing intellectually and maturing morally. We are born again sanctified and fully justified. We obtain justification by faith, and we maintain it through faith that works by love and purifies the soul. “Sanctification is the work of a lifetime.” (COL 65)

Although we are justified and sanctified the moment we are born again, the actual process of sanctification continues throughout eternity. While in heaven, we will continue to grow more and more like Christ. This “work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186)

“'The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.' Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another." (ML 250) Not an advance from greater sins to lesser sins until we are from sin, which is what I perceive you believe. Please correct me if I have misunderstood you.

“Sanctification is a state of holiness, without and within, being holy and without reserve the Lord’s, not in form, but in truth. Every impurity of thought, every lustful passion, separates the soul from God; for Christ can never put His robe of righteousness upon a sinner, to hide his deformity. . . .

“There must be a progressive work of triumph over evil, of sympathy with good, a reflection of the character of Jesus. We must walk in the light, which will increase and grow brighter unto the perfect day. This is real, substantial growth, which will finally attain to the full stature of men and women in Jesus Christ." (OHC 214)

Sanctification is the process of becoming more and more mature, more and more like Jesus. As such, this process, which begins here, will go on forever. In fact, eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust our potential to become more Christlike. Again, this “work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186) “Even the most perfect Christian may increase continually in the knowledge and love of God.” (ML 249)

Who is soft on sin?

Is it he who by faith now lives?
Or is it he who is looking for sinful habits?

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. The biggest sinful habit is considering things apart from faith. From this proceed all other sins. He who is born of God is born of faith, and he lives by faith.

As I have said before that which is wrong in searching ourselves is that when we search ourselves, then we also make our own solutions; establishing self-righteousness. Searching ourselves is not of faith, but by the law; for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

• Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

So to search ourselves then is to remain ignorant of God’s righteousness and establish self-righteousness.

• Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
  Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
  Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Since God’s righteousness is by faith, then it stands that it is not of works; not of self-searching and self-crucifying. Oh yes, self does get crucified; not by self-searching, but by faith. It is the only way it ever is crucified.

Now your original question was whether God waits till after we are born again to reveal some sinful habits. My answer was that he never is in the business of revealing sinful habits as such; but rather he is in the business of revealing to us his glory.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

It is this that we lack; it is this that we need; it is the glory of God that sets us free from sin. God is in the business of giving us his glory. This we receive by faith. That which prevents us from receiving it is lack of faith. Faith is the breath of life of heaven.

The only way I can see coming clear to your question is for you to answer the questions I have asked, which you have not answered:

Have you seen and become a partaker of the glory of God?
Have you seen and become a partaker of all the glory of God?

MM, what you consider "conversion" is what I (and I think almost all) Christians would consider "sanctification." That's the point I was making. I wasn't saying that you, in your mind, think they are the same.

Specifically, the idea that God reveals every sinful habit cultivated since birth to one before one is converted, has nothing to do with conversion as the term is commonly described and as the examples in Scripture, and the Spirit of Prophecy, show by example. Never is the description of one converted described in terms of "and now the Holy Spirit has finally revealed the last sinful habit, the 5,763rd one, which has been confessed, and conversion has ended."

Even you seem not to believe the God reveals every sinful habit before one can be converted, because you allow exceptions for smoking, polygamy, and drinking(?) (was Luther lost?; maybe I should anti-Antisemitism to the list).

A question that comes to mind is, how many sinful habits do you think one cultivates from birth?

Thomas: They may still exist but they may no longer rule.Thomas: Confessing comes under the next point, at the foot of the cross. Awareness of God is conversions first step, yelding to Him is its last step. But conversion is neither the first nor the last step on a persons path to God. It is not the first step, for often a person has some way to travel before opening up enough to be able to become aware of God. Nor is conversion the last stepp, for taking up ones cross at calvary and following Jesus is a new journey.The same Paul also wrote the following:
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.
So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.What you are agreeing to here is not exactly what I said. "Believe Gods promise" implies more than finding the cross of Christ. Some people find the cross and come to it but still wont believe Gods promise. They still believe that they must *do* something to merit what God there offers. They have not accepted the promise.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be] but a man's covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one. [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Thanks, Tom. You know? I was just noting that quite some time ago in a different, older thread, that I had asked that you read my post carefully and try to truly understand what I was saying instead of reacting to what you thought or wanted me to be saying, and at the time you took offense to my request.

Now you seem to be interested in understanding what I am trying to say, and you want to make sure I understand you, so that we are on the same page.

I commend you for that and thank you for that.

At the time I made my previous reply, I had read all the posts. And I immediately saw the point where the two camps disagreed upon. But then I also noticed that there was a lot of back-and-forth and arguing over a different point or two, points that both camps do not really seem to disagree but were argued as if they did.

In other words, instead of discussing the point where you truly disagreed, the discussion got side-tracked and both camps argued with each other over something that they really did not disagree about. That something is: Does God want us to have a close relationship with Him and to be like Christ? and Is God concerned about the evil tendencies in our lives and does He desire for us to be cleansed from sin and unrighteousness?

I would suggest that both camps would say YES! to both, but the arguments made by one camp sound almost as if God wants to reveal Himself to us and to have a relationship with us, but some of the comments almost make it sound like He doesn't care about the sin in our lives; He just wants us to know about Him.

The other camp talks about how God wants sin to be removed from our lives and for us to be cleansed from all sin and unrighteousness, but since this camp did not mention how this cleansing is to take place, the opposing camp assumes that the idea is that this is accomplished by focusing on self and self-effort.

But both camps are actually talking about being like Christ, which truly includes both knowing God (His revealing Himself to us) and being cleansed from sin. Again, this is the "being sidetracked" I was talking about. The real difference in view point is, as Tom aptly stated in another point, when does conversion actually take place.

As Tom said: (emphasis mine)

 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall

I'm reacting to MM's idea that God reveals to us all of our sinful habits before we are converted. Conversion, as he conceives of it, is sanctification. Sanctification is the process of a life time. I'm arguing against the idea that God keeps revealing sinful habits until there's no more left, and then we're "converted."

As I said, this is where the difference of opinion truly occurs.

But the excerpts in my next post will, I believe, illustrate what I meant by this discussion getting side-tracked. I'll note my thoughts along the way.

I'll just post this part now, in the interest of time, and will follow up with the excerpts I referred to in a subsequent post.

Thanks for your response, Den. A couple of points:

1)Regarding taking offense, it seems unlikely to me that I would have taken offense for the reason you mentioned. One has to be pretty thick-skinned to participate in internet discussions. I tend to take offense when people imply I'm a moron or imply I'm dishonest or something like that. But not for a request to read posts. So there may have been a misunderstanding there as well. At any rate, we seem to be on good terms now, so lets' continue on this vein.

2)I agree that you have pinpointed an important difference, but it's not the only one. For example, what John has been speaking of regarding self-righteousness and the righteousness of faith. MM has a completely different understanding than we do as to what righteousness by faith is, which John is trying to come to grips with.

Pretty good observation Den.

The discussion actually has to do with what constitutes conversion, and what it means to be free from sin.

Tom, Thomas and I are putting forth that faith is "the means" by which we are united with God in a father-son relationship and thus set free from sin and kept free from sin. That God works to this end.

MM's position seems to not be satisfied with that and seems to offer a work that is man-centered rather than God-centered. It proposes to scrutinize us, rather than us being lost in Christ. His view of faith seems to be "doctrinal" and does not see faith as the "active means" whereby we are cleansed from sin (sinful habits), and made one with God.

JB: To start looking for sin is to become a reprobate.

MM: The following insight disagrees with your declaration:

TDG 83
We are not to pass on indifferently. We must inquire into the character of our thoughts and feelings, our tempers, purposes, words, and deeds. We are not safe unless we are constantly and successfully warring against our own sinful corruptions. We must consider whether we are an example of Christian holiness, whether we are in the faith. Unless we search diligently examining our hearts in the light of God's Word, self-love will prompt to a much better opinion of ourselves than we should have. {TDG 83.3}

JB: Searching ourselves is not of faith, but by the law; for by the law is the knowledge of sin. … So to search ourselves then is to remain ignorant of God’s righteousness and establish self-righteousness. … Oh yes, self does get crucified; not by self-searching, but by faith. It is the only way it ever is crucified.

MM: On the contrary, John, faith is what enables us to know if we are walking in the Spirit, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, or if we are reprobates, walking after the flesh. Paul’s counsel is clear, “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.”

Sister White is also clear, “Unless we search diligently examining our hearts in the light of God's Word, self-love will prompt to a much better opinion of ourselves than we should have.”

Searching, examining ourselves does the exact opposite of what you suggest it will do. If done properly, it prevents “self-love” from prompting us to “a much better opinion of ourselves than we should have.”

Psalm
139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Lamentations
3:40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.

2 Corinthians
13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

2 Timothy
2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

JB: The only way I can see coming clear to your question is for you to answer the questions I have asked, which you have not answered:

Have you seen and become a partaker of the glory of God?
Have you seen and become a partaker of all the glory of God?

MM: Yes, so long as I am abiding in Jesus, I am a partaker of the glory of God, a partaker of the divine nature, a partaker of His holiness. But eternity isn't long enough to partake of "all" of His glory.

2 Peter
1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Hebrews
12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.
12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Duplicate post.

TE: MM, what you consider "conversion" is what I (and I think almost all) Christians would consider "sanctification." That's the point I was making. I wasn't saying that you, in your mind, think they are the same.

MM: But conversion and sanctification are two different processes. I make that clear in my description of both. The quotes I posted also make it clear. Sanctification has nothing to do with gradually outgrowing sinful habits or with God gradually exposing to our sight hitherto unknown sinful habits.

TE: Even you seem not to believe the God reveals every sinful habit before one can be converted, because you allow exceptions for smoking, polygamy, and drinking(?) (was Luther lost?; maybe I should anti-Antisemitism to the list).

MM: You are grossly misrepresenting what I believe about God winking at ignorance. Why?

TE: A question that comes to mind is, how many sinful habits do you think one cultivates from birth?

MM: There certainly aren’t “5,763” of them. For example, impatience covers many of our sinful habits. Thus, many sinful habits are crucified the instant we crucify the sin of impatience. Sister White describes it this way:

4T 384, 385
Another book was opened, wherein were recorded the sins of those who profess the truth. Under the general heading of selfishness came every other sin. There were also headings over every column, and underneath these, opposite each name,
were recorded, in their respective columns, the lesser sins. {4T 384.3}

Under covetousness came falsehood, theft, robbery, fraud, and avarice; under ambition came pride and extravagance; jealousy stood at the head of malice, envy, and hatred; and intemperance headed a long list of fearful crimes, such as lasciviousness, adultery, indulgence of animal passions, etc. As I beheld I was filled with inexpressible anguish and exclaimed: "Who can be saved? who will stand justified before God? whose robes are spotless? who are faultless in the sight of a pure and holy God?" {4T 385.1}

MM: The difference between my description and yours is you exclude the law and sinful habits. But it appears that both are implied because you qualify your description by adding being mature in the fruits of the Spirit means sinful habits do not exist. Or, did I misunderstand your addendum?

Thomas: They may still exist but they may no longer rule.

MM: When they are not ruling or controlling us, where do our sinful habits exist?

……………………….

MM: I agree, but I would also add that it includes confessing, in light of the cross, our sinful habits as the Holy Spirit reveals them to us. Just being aware of the fact the Holy Spirit has been working on us from birth isn’t enough. That’s true of everyone, that is, the Holy Spirit has been working on everyone since their birth.

Thomas: Confessing comes under the next point, at the foot of the cross. Awareness of God is conversions first step, yelding to Him is its last step. But conversion is neither the first nor the last step on a persons path to God. It is not the first step, for often a person has some way to travel before opening up enough to be able to become aware of God. Nor is conversion the last stepp, for taking up ones cross at calvary and following Jesus is a new journey.

MM: Well said. We complete the “patient, protracted process” of conversion the moment we “surrender all” to Jesus at the foot of the cross. Surrendering all includes confessing and crucifying our sinful habits, trading them in, as it were, for Christ and His righteousness. But, as you said, there is a sense in which conversion is never ending. In other words, we must continually choose, moment by moment, to stay converted, to continue abiding in Jesus.

…………………………..

MM: I agree with you, but I would hasten to add it also involves crucifying our old man habits of sin. “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom 6:6, 7) This is not the same thing as saying “the day we no longer sin”.

Paul explains how the old man dies and the new man replaces it. “That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.” (Eph 4:22-24)

Thomas: The same Paul also wrote the following (Romans 7:1-8):

MM: Do you see a contradiction between my Pauline quotes and yours?

…………………………

Thomas: Rebirth happens when we, at the foot of the cross, believe Gods promise. I suspect that you again would say that this happens when we no longer sin, in other words, fullfill the law perfectly...

MM: I agree rebirth occurs when we complete the “patient, protracted process” of conversion. However, this is not the same things as saying “we no longer sin … fulfill the law perfectly.” There are conditions to the promise, “Go, and sin no more.” Not only must we 1) complete the process of conversion and 2) experience rebirth, we must also 3) abide in Jesus - daily, continually, moment by moment - in order to fulfill the command, “Go, and sin no more.” Again, the conditional promise is – “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” (1 John 3:6)

Thomas: What you are agreeing to here is not exactly what I said. "Believe Gods promise" implies more than finding the cross of Christ. Some people find the cross and come to it but still wont believe Gods promise. They still believe that they must *do* something to merit what God there offers. They have not accepted the promise.

MM: When you wrote – “Rebirth happens when we, at the foot of the cross, believe Gods promise.” – I thought you meant it in the true, genuine, saving sense, not in a meritorious sense. So, yes, I agree that not everybody responds to the cross in the saving sense.

Do you agree with the following insight:

Here is a brief history of this thread:

…………………………..

Posted by MM [85791]:

Tom, again, I agree with John that the Holy Spirit saves us from our sinful habits through a revelation of the law and love of God in the person of Jesus Christ. You and I, however, disagree as to the timing and degree we are saved from our sinful habits at the moment we complete the process of conversion.

…………………………..

Posted by MM [85808]:

DB: One side assumes that by revealing and removing sin, they mean that one does it by his/her own power and excluding God out of the picture. One poster called it "self-righteous". This assumption is made despite the explicit commentary about accomplishing this by the power of God and His indwelling in us.

MM: Den, who is advocating this idea?

……………………….

Posted by DB [85821]:

… the arguments made by one camp sound almost as if God wants to reveal Himself to us and to have a relationship with us, but some of the comments almost make it sound like He doesn't care about the sin in our lives; He just wants us to know about Him.

The other camp talks about how God wants sin to be removed from our lives and for us to be cleansed from all sin and unrighteousness, but since this camp did not mention how this cleansing is to take place, the opposing camp assumes that the idea is that this is accomplished by focusing on self and self-effort.

… The real difference in view point is, as Tom aptly stated in another point, when does conversion actually take place.

.................

By the way, it might be helpful to remember the title of this thread:

"Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?"

Here are the comments that I think led the discussion off course, interspersed with my thoughts in italics:




I try not to, and I'll read something several times to try to make sure I really understand what was being said, but I am also sometimes guilty of speaking too soon or ascribing motives to people which were not warranted.

Personally, as far as I understand what MM was saying, I believe I also disagree with him concerning conversion and sanctification. But I am not certain whether I understand all he's saying, or if perhaps his explanations were not worded the best which could result in not really understanding what he was trying to say.

That's all I'm going to say on this. Just thought I'd try to help facilitate charity amongst ourselves. Give the other person the benefit of the doubt, and try to ask your opponent more often what he/she meant rather than assuming.

I hope this is taken in the spirit in which it was intended. Please take it for what you may, and if you disagree with my comments, then just forget it ... I don't think we'd need to discuss it any further, that would only detract further from the intended topic of this thread.

TE: MM, what you consider "conversion" is what I (and I think almost all) Christians would consider "sanctification." That's the point I was making. I wasn't saying that you, in your mind, think they are the same.

MM: But conversion and sanctification are two different processes. I make that clear in my description of both. The quotes I posted also make it clear. Sanctification has nothing to do with gradually outgrowing sinful habits or with God gradually exposing to our sight hitherto unknown sinful habits.

As I said, I wasn't saying that sanctification and conversion aren't separate processes in your mind, but rather that your idea of conversion is what I (and I think almost all) Christians would consider "sanctification."

TE: Even you seem not to believe the God reveals every sinful habit before one can be converted, because you allow exceptions for smoking, polygamy, and drinking(?) (was Luther lost?; maybe I should anti-Antisemitism to the list).

MM: You are grossly misrepresenting what I believe about God winking at ignorance. Why?

In what way am I even minutely misrepresenting what you believe? You stated these things as possible "exceptions to the rule," didn't you? I'm asking you if you believe Luther was lost, because he was a heavy beer drinker. Most Christians see nothing wrong with moderate drinking. I'm not defending their view, but am simply pointing out that if moderate drinking causes one to be lost, then there are many like Luther that are going to be lost. Smoking and polygamy as exceptions was your idea.

TE: A question that comes to mind is, how many sinful habits do you think one cultivates from birth?

MM: There certainly aren’t “5,763” of them. For example, impatience covers many of our sinful habits. Thus, many sinful habits are crucified the instant we crucify the sin of impatience. Sister White describes it this way:

4T 384, 385
Another book was opened, wherein were recorded the sins of those who profess the truth. Under the general heading of selfishness came every other sin. There were also headings over every column, and underneath these, opposite each name,
were recorded, in their respective columns, the lesser sins. {4T 384.3}

Under covetousness came falsehood, theft, robbery, fraud, and avarice; under ambition came pride and extravagance; jealousy stood at the head of malice, envy, and hatred; and intemperance headed a long list of fearful crimes, such as lasciviousness, adultery, indulgence of animal passions, etc. As I beheld I was filled with inexpressible anguish and exclaimed: "Who can be saved? who will stand justified before God? whose robes are spotless? who are faultless in the sight of a pure and holy God?" {4T 385.1}

If every sin comes under the general heading of sinfulness, then why can't God just show us this one sin and have us confess it, and then we're done? You were the one that brought up the idea of every sinful habit cultivated since birth. I've been trying to get you define just what this is. You seem to agree that smoking, drinking and polygamy qualify.

I'm really not sure what your point is if you don't think there are several thousand of these. If you think there is are only a couple of these, then you're in the same boat as Waggoner, with whom I agree, that God presents to us representative sins, and we repent of these. But you have presented a painstaking, long process where God presents to us every sinful habit cultivated from birth, implying a long list. So how long a list are we talking about?

How do you answer this question, "Have you stopped beating your wife?" or, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

The question, "Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits?" makes it sound like God's primary purpose is to reveal sinful habits to us. The questions, as you suggested them, do not have baggage associated with them. They do not have an implied premise that can make one uncomfortable to accept implicit in any answer to the question.

Something I find interesting is that the answer is clearly "yes," even for MM, who makes exceptions in certain cases for smoking and polygamy, and probably drinking (assuming Luther isn't lost). So why not ask, "What sinful habits does God wait to show to us until after we're born again?" since we all believe there are some.

But why ask such a question in the first place? Who cares? The revelation of some specific sinful habit is not what's necessary in order to be saved. What's necessary to be saved is to come to Christ. What specific sins God reveals to a given person will vary from person to person. It will be whatever is necessary to reveal in order for the person to come to Christ.

For example, the rich young man needed to sell all that he had in order to follow Christ, but Christ doesn't tell everyone who would follow Him to do this.

Searching self, preventing "self-love", could lead to despising self. I dont think that result would do anyone any good.

Laying around, waiting for opportunity to take potshots at us. But I didnt say that. Conversion occurs in a limited space of time. It is then followed by a walk with Christ. I do not see why the two should be mixed as you are here doing. Also, I believe this walk is a lot less nervous than what your words tell about. "Continually choosing, moment by moment, to stay converted" could easily lead a person to doubt the promise of God, worrying about moments past, worrying and laying awake at night wondering, "did I succeed today? can I account for every moment of these past hours". (It doesnt have to be like this, but it might be). Paul wrote a coherent letter. We cannot pit one part against another but must consider all parts to understand what he meant. Neither Romans 6:6-7 nor Romans 7:1-8 has its full meaning outside of the context of Romans 1:1 to Romans 16:27. The same argument also holds for the letter to the church in Ephesus.It appears to me that the first "condition to the promise" is faith. In fact, I his letter to the Galatians, Paul argues that "For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise: but God hath granted it to Abraham by promise. "
The author of Hebrews suggests lack of faith cancels reception of the promise. "Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. "

So here is the qestion:

How would you know whether all of your (each, every and all) sinful habits; including the unknown ones, have been revealed and crucified?

In other words, how will you know that you have no more sinful habits?

DB: I saw nothing in MM's commentary that suggested he was trying to slander God or to find fault, nothing to suggest that MM was trying to describe God as Someone Who was eager to point out faults just for the sake of showing us how evil we are. Yet MM is being accused of such.

MM: Thank you, Den, for promoting “charity” on this thread. I’m not sure where John is coming from, but I can testify that Tom has come a long way in treating people with kindness and respect.

DB: Personally, as far as I understand what MM was saying, I believe I also disagree with him concerning conversion and sanctification. But I am not certain whether I understand all he's saying, or if perhaps his explanations were not worded the best which could result in not really understanding what he was trying to say.

MM: I would be happy to disccuss it more thoroughly.

TE: Even you seem not to believe the God reveals every sinful habit before one can be converted, because you allow exceptions for smoking, polygamy, and drinking(?) (was Luther lost?; maybe I should anti-Antisemitism to the list).

MM: You are grossly misrepresenting what I believe about God winking at ignorance. Why?

TE: In what way am I even minutely misrepresenting what you believe? You stated these things as possible "exceptions to the rule," didn't you? I'm asking you if you believe Luther was lost, because he was a heavy beer drinker. Most Christians see nothing wrong with moderate drinking. I'm not defending their view, but am simply pointing out that if moderate drinking causes one to be lost, then there are many like Luther that are going to be lost. Smoking and polygamy as exceptions was your idea.

MM: You wrote, “Even you seem not to believe the God reveals every sinful habit before one can be converted, because you allow exceptions for …”

You seem to be implying that not even I believe God, as a rule, reveals “every” (SC 29) sinful habit during the “patient, protracted process” (DA 172) of conversion before people experience the miracle of rebirth. This implication grossly misrepresents what I believe.

The fact God has in the past “winked at” sins of ignorance does not undermine the rules which govern that way He is required to lead people to conversion and rebirth. Exceptions to the rule do not destroy the rule. Exceptions would not exist were it not for the rule. The same is true of mercy; that is, mercy would not exist were it not for the law.

Many who claim to be converted and born again were not properly guided and taught. “Many who profess to believe the truth for these last days will be found wanting. They have neglected the weightier matters. Their conversion is superficial, not deep, earnest, and thorough.” (2T 634)

They were not taught to “observe” (Mat 28:19, 20) everything Jesus commanded. They did not, therefore, experienced true, genuine conversion and rebirth. “To follow Jesus requires wholehearted conversion at the start, and a repetition of this conversion every day.” (1BC 1113)

“The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ.” {6BC 1075.7}

“Ministers and people need a new conversion, a transformation of the mind, without which we are not savors of life unto life, but of death unto death.” (2T 124)

“You both must have a thorough conversion, a thorough renewing of the mind, a thorough transformation, or you will have no part in the kingdom of God.” (2T 174) “You need to be elevated in your thoughts and conversation; you need a thorough conversion.” (2T 221)


TE: If you think there is are only a couple of these, then you're in the same boat as Waggoner, with whom I agree, that God presents to us representative sins, and we repent of these. But you have presented a painstaking, long process where God presents to us every sinful habit cultivated from birth, implying a long list. So how long a list are we talking about?

MM: I also agree that God, under the right conditions, reveals to us “representative sins”. Such representations encompass the root of every sinful habit. By “right conditions” I mean the person is taught, in accordance with the gospel commission (Mat 28:19, 20), to observe everything Jesus commanded.

Unfortunately, however, most are not; thus, many never experience true, genuine conversion and rebirth. According to the numerous SOP quotes posted above, it is never too late (thank you Jesus) to experience a “thorough conversion” and “radical transformation” to the will and way of God almighty.

MM: When they are not ruling or controlling us, where do our sinful habits exist?

TV: Laying around, waiting for opportunity to take potshots at us.

MM: True.

………………………..

MM: Well said. We complete the “patient, protracted process” of conversion the moment we “surrender all” to Jesus at the foot of the cross. Surrendering all includes confessing and crucifying our sinful habits, trading them in, as it were, for Christ and His righteousness. But, as you said, there is a sense in which conversion is never ending. In other words, we must continually choose, moment by moment, to stay converted, to continue abiding in Jesus.

TV: But I didnt say that. Conversion occurs in a limited space of time. It is then followed by a walk with Christ. I do not see why the two should be mixed as you are here doing. Also, I believe this walk is a lot less nervous than what your words tell about. "Continually choosing, moment by moment, to stay converted" could easily lead a person to doubt the promise of God, worrying about moments past, worrying and laying awake at night wondering, "did I succeed today? can I account for every moment of these past hours". (It doesnt have to be like this, but it might be).

MM: “It doesnt have to be like this, but it might be.” True.

………………………….

TV: The same Paul also wrote the following (Romans 7:1-8):

MM: Do you see a contradiction between my Pauline quotes and yours?

TV: Paul wrote a coherent letter. We cannot pit one part against another but must consider all parts to understand what he meant. Neither Romans 6:6-7 nor Romans 7:1-8 has its full meaning outside of the context of Romans 1:1 to Romans 16:27. The same argument also holds for the letter to the church in Ephesus.

MM: True. But I still don’t understand why you said, “The same Paul also wrote the following (Romans 7:1-8).” Please explain. Thank you.

…………………………….

MM: Do you agree with the following insight:

TV: It appears to me that the first "condition to the promise" is faith. In fact, I his letter to the Galatians, Paul argues that "For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise: but God hath granted it to Abraham by promise. "
The author of Hebrews suggests lack of faith cancels reception of the promise. "Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. "

MM: True. Saving faith is inherently necessary in all 3 steps. But do you agree with the rest of the quote above?

Duplicate post. Sorry.

DB: I would suggest that this assumption is wrong, but to actually know what MM has in mind for the how-to of seeking sinful habits, one would have to actually ask him, which no one has done.

JB: So here is the qestion: How would you know whether all of your (each, every and all) sinful habits; including the unknown ones, have been revealed and crucified? In other words, how will you know that you have no more sinful habits?

MM: If people follow the steps Jesus prescribed in Matthew 28:19, 20 whether or not they have confessed and crucified “every” (SC 29) sinful habit would be self-evident. The Holy Spirit enlightens them. “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.” (Rom 8:16)

They are not left to their own devices. They are not left in darkness. “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Rom 8:13, 14)

TE: Even you seem not to believe the God reveals every sinful habit before one can be converted, because you allow exceptions for smoking, polygamy, and drinking(?) (was Luther lost?; maybe I should anti-Antisemitism to the list).

MM: You are grossly misrepresenting what I believe about God winking at ignorance. Why?

TE: In what way am I even minutely misrepresenting what you believe? You stated these things as possible "exceptions to the rule," didn't you? I'm asking you if you believe Luther was lost, because he was a heavy beer drinker. Most Christians see nothing wrong with moderate drinking. I'm not defending their view, but am simply pointing out that if moderate drinking causes one to be lost, then there are many like Luther that are going to be lost. Smoking and polygamy as exceptions was your idea.

MM: You wrote, “Even you seem not to believe the God reveals every sinful habit before one can be converted, because you allow exceptions for …”

Instead of quoting a whole bunch of texts which do not say what you assert (not including exceptions), why not quote one which says what you assert? Find one quote that says that the way to conversion is, as a rule, to have every sinful habit cultivated from birth revealed to you by the Holy Spirit and confessed.

You won't be able to do this, because that's not how conversion works. Anyone who has been converted knows how it works. It works as EGW described it in discussing the conversation of Jesus with Nicodemus. The love of God is revealed through JJesus Christ. It is the goodness of God which leads to repentance (Romans 2:4). As Christ crucified is revealed, the sinner is drawnt to Christt in repentance for his sins. If he does not resist, he responds by repenting, and yielding himself to God, which results in the sinner being brought into harmony with God. He is reconciled by faith.

TE: If you think there is are only a couple of these, then you're in the same boat as Waggoner, with whom I agree, that God presents to us representative sins, and we repent of these. But you have presented a painstaking, long process where God presents to us every sinful habit cultivated from birth, implying a long list. So how long a list are we talking about?

MM: I also agree that God, under the right conditions, reveals to us “representative sins”. Such representations encompass the root of every sinful habit. By “right conditions” I mean the person is taught, in accordance with the gospel commission (Mat 28:19, 20), to observe everything Jesus commanded.

Unfortunately, however, most are not; thus, many never experience true, genuine conversion and rebirth. According to the numerous SOP quotes posted above, it is never too late (thank you Jesus) to experience a “thorough conversion” and “radical transformation” to the will and way of God almighty.

What are you talking about? Let's take a specific example, the Sabbath. Many Christians, most, in fact, have no idea that God wants us to remember the Sabbath (as we understand it, from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset). Are they not genuinely born again or converted if they are not instructed to keep the Sabbath? This is, after all, part of the Law of God by which we are judged. Or is this an "exception"?

TE: Anyone who has been converted knows how it works. It works as EGW described it in discussing the conversation of Jesus with Nicodemus. The love of God is revealed through JJesus Christ. It is the goodness of God which leads to repentance (Romans 2:4). As Christ crucified is revealed, the sinner is drawnt to Christt in repentance for his sins. If he does not resist, he responds by repenting, and yielding himself to God, which results in the sinner being brought into harmony with God. He is reconciled by faith.

MM: Amen! The goodness of God does indeed lead sinners to repentance and conversion. The questions is - Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? Which sins does the goodness of God not lead us to repent of until sometime after we are converted?

TE: What are you talking about? Let's take a specific example, the Sabbath. Many Christians, most, in fact, have no idea that God wants us to remember the Sabbath (as we understand it, from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset). Are they not genuinely born again or converted if they are not instructed to keep the Sabbath? This is, after all, part of the Law of God by which we are judged. Or is this an "exception"?

MM: Yes, people who are not taught to observe everything Jesus commanded do not experience conversion is God's appointed way. Surely you can agree with this basic logic? If God chooses to admit people to heaven who did not observe the Sabbath, then, yes, it is an exception to the rule.

TE: Anyone who has been converted knows how it works. It works as EGW described it in discussing the conversation of Jesus with Nicodemus. The love of God is revealed through JJesus Christ. It is the goodness of God which leads to repentance (Romans 2:4). As Christ crucified is revealed, the sinner is drawnt to Christt in repentance for his sins. If he does not resist, he responds by repenting, and yielding himself to God, which results in the sinner being brought into harmony with God. He is reconciled by faith.

MM: Amen! The goodness of God does indeed lead sinners to repentance and conversion. The questions is - Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits?

At least in some cases, according to you, the answer is "yes." For example, you've mentioned smoking and polygamy. Assuming Luther is amongst the sheep, drinking would have to be added to the list too.

Which sins does the goodness of God not lead us to repent of until sometime after we are converted?

Have you stopped beating your wife?

TE: What are you talking about? Let's take a specific example, the Sabbath. Many Christians, most, in fact, have no idea that God wants us to remember the Sabbath (as we understand it, from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset). Are they not genuinely born again or converted if they are not instructed to keep the Sabbath? This is, after all, part of the Law of God by which we are judged. Or is this an "exception"?

MM: Yes, people who are not taught to observe everything Jesus commanded do not experience conversion is God's appointed way.

Meaning they won't be in heaven?

Surely you can agree with this basic logic? If God chooses to admit people to heaven who did not observe the Sabbath, then, yes, it is an exception to the rule.

No, I don't agree with this. You've got a different rule in mind. The "rule" I know of, which I wouldn't call a rule, but a principle, is that salvation is by faith. This is because faith is the only thing that can reconcile us to God; it's not an arbitrary requirement, as if God, had He felt like it, could have chosen some other requirement other than faith by which we could be reconciled, but faith really is the only thing that can reconcile us.

Tom, are you avoiding my point? The point is - There is an appointed way to experience true, genuine conversion. This way is described and prescribed in Mathew 28:19, 20. According to Jesus, the appointed way to experience true, genuine conversion involves 1) learning and understanding everything He commanded, and 2) obeying and observing everything He commanded.

Do you agree that there is an appointed way? Do you agree it is prescribed and described in Matthew 28:19, 20?

It is true, however, that God has made exceptions to the rule (i.e., principle, prescription, the mandatory way, etc). Such exceptions, nevertheless, do not undermine the rule. God's winking at ignorance does not condone it. Nobody will be translated alive who is guilty of sinning ignorantly. Why do you suppose that is?

Do you agree that winking at ignorance does not mean there is not an appointed way?

I disagree with what you think the appointed way is. I think the appointed way is expressed by Jesus Christ here:



Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. We are reconciled to God by faith in Him. Not by works. No lists are involved, of commandments to recite, or sinful habits to confess. That which is required is a right heart. God brings representative sins to our minds that we might see our need of Him, that we might repent. But the goal is Christ:



I really don't agree at all with what you've written. I believe conversion is *evidenced* by the things you are suggesting, but not effected (which means "brought about," not "affected") by the things you are suggesting.

If we are converted, then God has our heart, which includes our time, our money, our strength, all that we have and are. The sincerity of our conversion will be demonstrated by the things we do and say, as well as our openness to truth. But it seems to me that path you are suggesting is similar to the pitfall the pharisees slid into.

Regarding the winking at ignorance question, I don't think that has anything to do with it. There's one way of salvation, which is through Jesus Christ. There are no exceptions. No one comes to the Father buy by Him. *How* a person comes to Christ varies, but in every conversion there are general principles involved, which were sketched out in the DA quote cited. A person is made aware of his need for forgiveness, for reconciliation, and through Christ, by the Holy Spirit, is presented the means by which one may be brought in harmony to God.

 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall

How do you answer this question, "Have you stopped beating your wife?" or, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

That would be very easy to answer. You would answer truthfully with one of the following answers, depending upon your marital status:

• "I am not married."; or,
• "I never beat my wife."

But I would not classify MM's question (Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits?) as the same type of question as MM's, not by a long shot!

 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall

The question, "Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits?" makes it sound like God's primary purpose is to reveal sinful habits to us. The questions, as you suggested them, do not have baggage associated with them. They do not have an implied premise that can make one uncomfortable to accept implicit in any answer to the question.

It only makes it sound this way if that is what you read into the question!

Why do you say that this question makes it sound like God's primary purpose is to reveal sinful habits to us? The following quote from a different post of yours shows that you based this assumption on the wording of the question:

 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall

However, the way you are phrasing the question is most unfortunate. It reminds me of the adversaries of Christ who phrased things in a certain way in an attempt to catch them.

But this medium of communication is sterile from voice inflections and tones, body language, and all the other forms of communication that work together with verbal words when we are communicating face-to-face. The exact same words can be spoken at two different times, or by two different people, and each could mean something completely different, just because a different tone of voice was used, different body language, etc.

I submit to you that going solely on wording is a very ineffective and unreliable means of discerning the motives of others.

Take the following hypothetical comment for instance:

 Quote:

Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? What I've read from the Bible suggests that God is merciful and would not want to overwhelm us with everything at once. I think instead that God would work on us in regard to some things, and then when He has helped us overcome that area of our lives, He will then move on to another area. What do you think?

In the above hypothetical comment, the exact same wording was used as MM's question, it was the exact same question. Would you still assume that the wording of the question requires the reader to think that the poster is suggesting that God just wants to show us how evil we are?

I would like to point out that your criticism of MM's question does not seem consistent with other comments made by MM, such as the ones that talked about God's love and about His love being the motivating factor in our abiding in Him. In other words, why would MM portray God as mean and vindictive, and also loving and caring at the same time? Your criticisms are incongruent with MM's other comments about God. Are you accusing MM of being schizophrenic?

Your assessment of MM's question does not take into account the entire context of MM's commentary. Rather, your assessment focuses exclusively on that one question that was, in my opinion, taken out of context.

 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall

Something I find interesting is that the answer is clearly "yes," even for MM, who makes exceptions in certain cases for smoking and polygamy, and probably drinking (assuming Luther isn't lost). So why not ask, "What sinful habits does God wait to show to us until after we're born again?" since we all believe there are some.

I do not see any difference whatsoever between the question you proposed in the quote above and MM's question that would make one question derogatory towards God and the other one not.

His asks "Does He...", and yours asks, "Which ones does He..." I really don't see the difference between the two questions that would make one derogatory and the other complimentary.

The very same criticisms could be applied to your proposed question as you have applied to MM's question.

 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall

But why ask such a question in the first place? Who cares? The revelation of some specific sinful habit is not what's necessary in order to be saved. What's necessary to be saved is to come to Christ. What specific sins God reveals to a given person will vary from person to person. It will be whatever is necessary to reveal in order for the person to come to Christ.

If the question is not important to you, then why did you participate in the thread. Whenever I come across a thread which I don't feel to be an important discussion, I simply do not read or participate in that thread.

So if it isn't important to you, then why are you involved in this discussion?

TE: I disagree with what you think the appointed way is. I think the appointed way is expressed by Jesus Christ here (John 6:28, 29 quoted).

MM: I believe Matthew 28:19, 20 includes the truth brought out in John 6:28, 29. Believing on Jesus is indispensable. Jesus explained that to believe on Him is to behave like Him.

John
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Belief and behaviour, like faith and works, are inseparable. They go hand-in-hand. Jesus demonstrated this principle in the way He lived His life. That's why He taught His disciples to teach people to understand and observe everything He commanded. His example is the way.

The purpose of the appointed way, that is, the right and only way to experience and complete the process of conversion, is to help people be like Jesus. Hopefully we can at least agree on this insight. Exactly how many sinful habits are not revealed until after people are truly and genuinely converted is something we may never agree on.

TE: I disagree with what you think the appointed way is. I think the appointed way is expressed by Jesus Christ here (John 6:28, 29 quoted).

MM: I believe Matthew 28:19, 20 includes the truth brought out in John 6:28, 29. Believing on Jesus is indispensable. Jesus explained that to believe on Him is to behave like Him.

Your last sentence agrees with what I've been saying.

John
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Belief and behaviour, like faith and works, are inseparable. They go hand-in-hand. Jesus demonstrated this principle in the way He lived His life. That's why He taught His disciples to teach people to understand and observe everything He commanded. His example is the way.

The purpose of the appointed way, that is, the right and only way to experience and complete the process of conversion, is to help people be like Jesus. Hopefully we can at least agree on this insight. Exactly how many sinful habits are not revealed until after people are truly and genuinely converted is something we may never agree on.

The problem I perceive is that you appear to be making the evidence of the process (behaving like Jesus) a prerequisite, whereas the only prerequisite is faith. If we need to do something to be saved which involves works as a process of obtaining that which God gives us freely, then we make God a debtor to us. Paul speaks of this at length in Romans. (Ellen White also, as in "Faith and Works" e.g. the first chapter).

Paul uses the argument that Abraham was circumcised *after* he believed on the Lord, showing that circumcision was an evidence of the righteousness he *already* had by faith.

The error I perceive you to be making is that you appear to be making the *evidence* of the righteousness which we have by faith (e.g. baptism) a *means* of obtaining the righteousness. This makes righteousness not by faith, but by works.

The works are an *evidence* of the righteousness, which is obtained by faith.

The above is a theological way of communicating an idea which is very easily explained in a non-theological way. Our problem is that we are estranged by God because of our sin. It's no a problem from God's perspective, in terms of His having to deal with us, which is seen most clearly by the way Jesus Christ treated sinners. He didn't shun them, but fellowshipped with them. Indeed, this was the complaint that the religious people had against them. However, it is a problem for us. Our sins cause us to view God in a way He is not, as judgmental, looking to find fault with us, and punish us if we don't do what He says. We seem Him in a way that causes us to be afraid of Him, instead of viewing Him as friend, as lover, as Father, as the Bible portrays Him to be.

So how does God get us to lay down our arms, to stop fighting against Him, to be reconciled to Him? By a revelation of His true character. Rather than heartless judge, God has revealed Himself as loving Father. Jesus Christ came to show us what God is really like. (John 1:18). This was the "whole purpose of His earthly ministry" (Ellen White, ST 1/20/90).

When we see the truth about God, that He is like Jesus Christ, gracious, compassionate, eager to forgive, wanting nothing more than for us to be in a right relationship with Him, we (if we don't resist) respond to the Holy Spirit, who effects in us the miracle of the new birth, reconciling us to God.

Having been reconciled to God, it *then* becomes our desire to behave like Jesus, to do the "all things" He commanded. But this *follows* our having been reconciled. It cannot precede it. That would be putting the cart before the horse, changing grace into works, and making God a debtor, which cannot be.

Ok, here I have some conversion testimonies that I think ought to interest you both, Tom and Mike.
http://www.dreamsandvisions.com/English/index.html
And of the ones Ive seen so far, this one especially:
http://www.dreamsandvisions.com/English/ali.html

TE: Your last sentence agrees with what I've been saying.

MM: I don’t think we have ever disagreed about the relationship between saving faith and works and salvation. We both agree that saving faith and good works are inseparable. We are not saved because “of” good works, rather we are saved “unto” good works.

Ephesians
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1SM 377
While good works will not save even one soul, yet it is impossible for even one soul to be saved without good works. (1SM 377)

FW 95
While we are to be in harmony with God’s law, we are not saved by the works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience. . . . He does not save us by law, neither will He save us in disobedience to law. (FW 95)


TE: The problem I perceive is that you appear to be making the evidence of the process (behaving like Jesus) a prerequisite, whereas the only prerequisite is faith.

MM: I agree saving faith is the only prerequisite. But can we divorce saving faith and works? It is not biblical faith if it is not saving faith that works by love. Faith without works is not biblical faith. Do you agree? Yes, we are saved by faith, not by works; but faith without works is dead. Again, “While good works will not save even one soul, yet it is impossible for even one soul to be saved without good works.”

TE: If we need to do something to be saved which involves works as a process of obtaining that which God gives us freely, then we make God a debtor to us.

MM: True. But again we have never disagreed regarding this point.

TE: The error I perceive you to be making is that you appear to be making the *evidence* of the righteousness which we have by faith (e.g. baptism) a *means* of obtaining the righteousness. This makes righteousness not by faith, but by works. The works are an *evidence* of the righteousness, which is obtained by faith.

MM: Again, saving faith without works is dead. Yes, righteousness by saving faith is not righteousness by works devoid of saving faith. On this we agree.

TE: So how does God get us to lay down our arms, to stop fighting against Him, to be reconciled to Him? By a revelation of His true character. . . . Jesus Christ came to show us what God is really like. (John 1:18). This was the "whole purpose of His earthly ministry" (Ellen White, ST 1/20/90).

MM: Amen! The law of God reflects the character of God. Jesus did indeed demonstrate how to live in harmony with the law of God while at the same time displaying the love and character of God. "His life testifies that it is possible for us also to obey the law of God."

You and I disagree as to how completely people are like Jesus the moment they experience conversion and rebirth in God's appointed way. We also disagree on what constitutes God's duly appointed way. Thus we have not been able to agree on the answer to the question that is the title of this thread.

DA 24
Satan represents God's law of love as a law of selfishness. He declares that it is impossible for us to obey its precepts. The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, he charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. Jesus was to unveil this deception. As one of us He was to give an example of obedience. For this He took upon Himself our nature, and passed through our experiences. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Heb. 2:17. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us. Therefore Jesus was "in all points tempted like as we are." Heb. 4:15. He endured every trial to which we are subject. And He exercised in His own behalf no power that is not freely offered to us. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him from God. He says, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Ps. 40:8. As He went about doing good, and healing all who were afflicted by Satan, He made plain to men the character of God's law and the nature of His service. His life testifies that it is possible for us also to obey the law of God. {DA 24.2}

TE: When we see the truth about God, that He is like Jesus Christ, gracious, compassionate, eager to forgive, wanting nothing more than for us to be in a right relationship with Him, we (if we don't resist) respond to the Holy Spirit, who effects in us the miracle of the new birth, reconciling us to God. Having been reconciled to God, it *then* becomes our desire to behave like Jesus, to do the "all things" He commanded. But this *follows* our having been reconciled. It cannot precede it. That would be putting the cart before the horse, changing grace into works, and making God a debtor, which cannot be.

MM: Amen! God not only gives us a “desire” to live like Jesus, He also gives us the power to do it. But only born again believers who are abiding in Jesus, who are partaking of the divine nature have the power to be like Jesus, to obey and observe everything He commanded.

Which, of course, includes “all things”. We are not truly reconciled to God if we are ignorantly sinning, especially if we are sinning because God is purposely keeping us in the dark, as it were, until a more convenient time to reveal it to us. Which is what I hear you saying. Please correct if I have misunderstood you.

……………………………..


MM: You did not address these two points.

Thomas, you're right, Ali's story is awesome. I hope he completes the process of conversion in God's appointed way. Which is not say he isn't saved, but if he isn't obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded then he hasn't completed the process of conversion. Completing the process of conversion in God's appointed way means being like Jesus, that is, living in harmony with the 28 SDA fundamental beliefs.

So awaiting the day when he gets in touch with SDAs, he is still saved even though he is not fully converted? What does conversion mean?

You have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted? My goodness, what a thought! Before when there were only 27 fundamental beliefs, was 27 enough?

This sounds Catholic. Authority to determine whether or not one is converted rests with the committee who determined the 27 or 28 fundamental beliefs?

MM:Which, of course, includes “all things”. We are not truly reconciled to God if we are ignorantly sinning,

What does this mean? Virtually everyone, if not everyone, ignorantly sins. Does this mean no one is reconciled to God? Let's just consider non-SDA Christians. If your statement were true, it would mean no non-SDAs are truly reconciled to God.

especially if we are sinning because God is purposely keeping us in the dark, as it were, until a more convenient time to reveal it to us. Which is what I hear you saying. Please correct if I have misunderstood you.

I've never said anything like this. What I've repeatedly said is that God reveals truth to us as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. Do you agree with this?

Our conversion is not contingent upon God's having revealed all truth to us, but rather, upon faith. We are accountability to light we have access to, not for things we don't know (assuming we have not willingly avoided such knowledge).

……………………………..

Quote:
The purpose of the appointed way, that is, the right and only way to experience and complete the process of conversion, is to help people be like Jesus. [1] Hopefully we can at least agree on this insight. [2] Exactly how many sinful habits are not revealed until after people are truly and genuinely converted is something we may never agree on.

MM: You did not address these two points.

1.The appointed way is faith. 2.You've never said how many habits are revealed to a "truly converted" person. How many do you think there are? If you can provide some figure, then I can make some comment as to whether I agree or not.

The problem with your position MM, is that it makes the word of the Lord "past tense"; rather than "present tense" which is the tense of "faith".

By making the word of the Lord past tense, you make yourself the judge of what that word was. But to receive the "present tense" word of the Lord takes "faith", and can be received only by him who hears it.

In receiving the "present tense word of the Lord" by faith, one belongs to the Lord, and who are you that judgest another man's servant.

Is not the enlightenment of the holy spirit received by faith?

What does the spirit bear witness with our spirit? "That we are the sons of God", right?

Are those who live by faith left to their own devices? Are not they who are of the law left to their own devices?

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

What problem do you have with "faith"? Why is faith not meaningful to you?

The scriptures you quoted have nothing to do with "sinful habits". They have to do with two different realms; two different sources.

Could you tell us what truth you discovered in 1995 and how it gave you victory over sin?

TV: So awaiting the day when he gets in touch with SDAs, he is still saved even though he is not fully converted? What does conversion mean?

MM: Yes, Ali is saved if he continues to live in harmony with the light he believes is true and right. “Conversion” and “converted” are different aspects of the same thing. “Converted” means a person has completed the “process of conversion”, namely, they have learned how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded us to obey and observe.

TE: You have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted?

MM: Tom, Jesus raised up the Remnant Church to restore and repair the truths that were all but lost during the Dark Ages. “Thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.” (Isa 58:12) Which church do you believe is the Remnant Church of prophecy? I believe it is the SDA church.

TE: What does this mean? Virtually everyone, if not everyone, ignorantly sins. Does this mean no one is reconciled to God? Let's just consider non-SDA Christians. If your statement were true, it would mean no non-SDAs are truly reconciled to God.

MM: To be truly, fully, completely reconciled to God means to be like Jesus, to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded us. People who are innocently ignorant of this or that truth cannot live in harmony with it, right?

TE: What I've repeatedly said is that God reveals truth to us as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. Do you agree with this?

MM: Yes, but in a different context. God exposes to our sight, in light of the cross, our sinful habits during the process of conversion. He does not wait until we complete the process to reveal certain sinful habits we were unable or unwilling to confess or forsake.

TE: Our conversion is not contingent upon God's having revealed all truth to us, but rather, upon faith. We are accountability to light we have access to, not for things we don't know (assuming we have not willingly avoided such knowledge).

MM: Converted in what way? Converted from greater sins to lesser sins, or from more sins to less sins? If we are not living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded then we have not completed the process of conversion.

TE: 1.The appointed way is faith. 2.You've never said how many habits are revealed to a "truly converted" person. How many do you think there are? If you can provide some figure, then I can make some comment as to whether I agree or not.

MM: The appointed way is to lean how to live, by faith, in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Also, it is you who believes Jesus waits to reveal certain sinful habits until we are converted and born again.

Seems Tom was right. We use the same word but mean different things by it.

TE: You have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted?

MM: Tom, Jesus raised up the Remnant Church to restore and repair the truths that were all but lost during the Dark Ages. “Thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.” (Isa 58:12) Which church do you believe is the Remnant Church of prophecy? I believe it is the SDA church.

You are the only person I'm aware of that holds to this idea of conversion. I'd suggest that in the future, rather than waiting for many posts, whenever you use the word "conversion" that you explain what you mean, because you have a unique definition for this word, and no one will know what you're talking about until you get to the point to where you've defined what you mean by "conversion." We're on page 9 of this topic, and only now is this coming out.

TE: What does this mean? Virtually everyone, if not everyone, ignorantly sins. Does this mean no one is reconciled to God? Let's just consider non-SDA Christians. If your statement were true, it would mean no non-SDAs are truly reconciled to God.

MM: To be truly, fully, completely reconciled to God means to be like Jesus, to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded us.

One is reconciled to God by faith. Here's an examplanation from Waggoner:





These go together, one right after the other. I split them up to avoid the scrolling. Of particular interest is that explanation as to how we obtain peace with God. We obtain peace with God when we cease to fight against Him.

Regrading being fully reconciled, we are fully reconciled when we are justified by faith.



We *were* reconciled to God. Now, much more, "being reconciled" indicated a completed action. We can be fully reconciled to God, and know that this is the case. It's not dependent upon the revelation of all our sinful habits, and confessing them all, but upon faith in Christ. We are reconciled to God by faith. Why? Because it is by faith that we apprehend the love of God which is beyond knowledge. This melts our heart, motivating us to stop fighting against Him.[/color]

People who are innocently ignorant of this or that truth cannot live in harmony with it, right?

One does not live in harmony with truth, but with God. One can live in harmony with God by faith, even without being perfect.

TE: What I've repeatedly said is that God reveals truth to us as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. Do you agree with this?

MM: Yes, but in a different context.

Why is the context different? This is a general principle, isn't it? There's never a point to where we know all truth so that this stops, is there?

God exposes to our sight, in light of the cross, our sinful habits during the process of conversion. He does not wait until we complete the process to reveal certain sinful habits we were unable or unwilling to confess or forsake.

According to you He does! He waits, in certain circumstances, for smoking, for polygamy, for drinking, just to name three. He also waits for the other habits related to the first four commandments, since these all don't count, since only the last six count. So breaking the Sabbath doesn't count in your list of sinful habits, correct? I suppose using God's name in vain, being in the first four, also wouldn't count.

TE: Our conversion is not contingent upon God's having revealed all truth to us, but rather, upon faith. We are accountability to light we have access to, not for things we don't know (assuming we have not willingly avoided such knowledge).

MM: Converted in what way?

By faith in Christ. The way that Christ laid out for Nicodemus. Christ knocks on the door of our heart. We open the door, and He enters in and fellowships with us. That way.

Converted from greater sins to lesser sins, or from more sins to less sins? If we are not living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded then we have not completed the process of conversion.

Conversion is not about sins. It's about a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is established by faith. What you are calling the "process of conversion" would be better termed "the process of sanctification."

TE: 1.The appointed way is faith. 2.You've never said how many habits are revealed to a "truly converted" person. How many do you think there are? If you can provide some figure, then I can make some comment as to whether I agree or not.

MM: The appointed way is to lean how to live, by faith, in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Also, it is you who believes Jesus waits to reveal certain sinful habits until we are converted and born again.

And you too!! For example, you've mentioned smoking and pologamy as examples (in certain cases). I assume drinking must be an example as well, if Luther wasn't lost. And Sabbath-breaking, and other sinful habits related to the first four commandments. Right?

Anyway, you didn't answer my question. How many sinful habits do you think we have cultivated since birth? A rough number or range would be find. I'm very interested in knowing how you perceive this.

Tom, did you see my last post?

No, Denborg, I'm sorry, but I didn't see the post. We've gone on a bit since then. If you'd like to repost some questions or comments, I'd be happy to respond. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to go back and respond to your post. If I had seen it, I would have responded.

Again, this wasn't intentional, and I apologize.

JB: The problem with your position MM, is that it makes the word of the Lord "past tense"; rather than "present tense" which is the tense of "faith". By making the word of the Lord past tense, you make yourself the judge of what that word was. But to receive the "present tense" word of the Lord takes "faith", and can be received only by him who hears it.

MM: Due to the nature of time and space certain aspects of salvation are past tense. Jesus died on the cross 2,000 years ago. True, the benefits of His death are efficacious today, but He is not still dead on the cross at this time. I completed the process of conversion in 1995. True, I choose to renew it moment by moment, I choose to continue abiding in Jesus, but it does not mean I completed the process of conversion today.

JB: In receiving the "present tense word of the Lord" by faith, one belongs to the Lord, and who are you that judgest another man's servant.

MM: Have I judged someone?

JB: Is not the enlightenment of the holy spirit received by faith? What does the spirit bear witness with our spirit? "That we are the sons of God", right?

MM: Yes.

JB: Are those who live by faith left to their own devices? Are not they who are of the law left to their own devices?

MM: No, to the first; yes, to the second.

JB: What problem do you have with "faith"? Why is faith not meaningful to you? The scriptures you quoted have nothing to do with "sinful habits". They have to do with two different realms; two different sources.

MM: Faith is the victory. It comes by hearing and heeding the Word of God. I have faith. By faith I abide in Jesus; by faith He empowers me to be like Him. The Bible and SOP passages I posted have everything to do with crucifying sinful habits during the process of conversion. It is during this process, while we are converting from a life of sinning to a life without sinning, that God “exposes” (SC 29) to our sight, in light of the cross, our cultivated sinful habits that must be confessed and crucified in order to complete the process of conversion and experience the miracle of rebirth.

JB: Could you tell us what truth you discovered in 1995 and how it gave you victory over sin?

MM: I discovered the truth about the process of conversion and the miracle of rebirth. And it is the truth as it is in Jesus that empowers me to recognize and resist sin, self, and Satan, and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. By faith, it is the law and love of God that enables me to experience the promises of perfection.

I discovered that God does not wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain cultivated sinful habits. I discovered that conversion is not a lifelong process of becoming less and less sinful by becoming more and more sinless.

I discovered we begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. If we complete the process of conversion in God’s appointed way, we are born again without our sinful habits. Like Jesus we begin perfect (complete) and we become perfect (mature). We are born again dead to sin and awake to righteousness. Abiding by faith in Jesus empowers us to be like Jesus, to reveal the law and love of God in our thoughts, words, and deeds.

I discovered that not sinning is normal Christian behavior, that maturing in the fruits of the Spirit is normal. So long as we are abiding in Jesus, so long as we are partaking of the divine nature, so long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not, yea, cannot, commit a known sin. No, we do not lose the ability or freedom to sin. But in Christ we will not choose to sin.

We are, nevertheless, free to sin. However, we must first forget to keep our eyes on Jesus, we must neglect to consciously abide in Him, and then, thus separated, all we can do is sin. The gift of repentance, received into the heart, empowers us to confess and forsake our sin. The Holy Spirit then restores us to the mind of the new man and we resume abiding in Jesus, we resume maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. We thereby honor and glorify our heavenly Father.

TE: You have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted?

MM: Tom, Jesus raised up the Remnant Church to restore and repair the truths that were all but lost during the Dark Ages. “Thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.” (Isa 58:12) Which church do you believe is the Remnant Church of prophecy? I believe it is the SDA church.

TE: You are the only person I'm aware of that holds to this idea of conversion. I'd suggest that in the future, rather than waiting for many posts, whenever you use the word "conversion" that you explain what you mean, because you have a unique definition for this word, and no one will know what you're talking about until you get to the point to where you've defined what you mean by "conversion." We're on page 9 of this topic, and only now is this coming out.

MM: You didn't answer my questions.

TV: So awaiting the day when he gets in touch with SDAs, he is still saved even though he is not fully converted? What does conversion mean?

MM: Yes, Ali is saved if he continues to live in harmony with the light he believes is true and right. “Conversion” and “converted” are different aspects of the same thing. “Converted” means a person has completed the “process of conversion”, namely, they have learned how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded us to obey and observe.

TV: Seems Tom was right. We use the same word but mean different things by it.

MM: How do you define them?

TE: Regrading being fully reconciled, we are fully reconciled when we are justified by faith.

MM: Here is how Sister White describes it:

“Justification by faith is to many a mystery. A sinner is justified by God when he repents of his sins.” (OHC 52)

MM: Sinners are justified “when” (not before) they repent of their “sins”.

“God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul.” (FW 100)

MM: The heart must be surrendered “entirely” (not partially) before they are justified.

“Genuine faith will be manifested in good works; for good works are the fruits of faith. As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and cooperates with God, he works out in the life what God works in by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained.” (1SM 397)

MM: “Every sin” (not some or most) must crucified to obtain justification.

TE: Conversion is not about sins. It's about a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is established by faith.

MM: “Conversion is not about sins.” I disagree. It is during the “process of conversion” that sinners convert, by faith, from sinning to not sinning to maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

TE: What you are calling the "process of conversion" would be better termed "the process of sanctification."

MM: I disagree. The process of sanctification begins the moment a person completes the process of conversion.

“This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another.” (ML 250)

MM: Not from one stage of imperfection to a lesser stage of imperfection, as you seem to be saying.

.............................


TE: And you too!! For example, you've mentioned smoking and pologamy as examples (in certain cases). I assume drinking must be an example as well, if Luther wasn't lost. And Sabbath-breaking, and other sinful habits related to the first four commandments. Right?

MM: I do not believe people complete the process of conversion, that is, converting from sinning to not sinning to maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, before they learn how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded. No conversion is complete until people are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Again, it is you who believes Jesus waits to reveal to people certain sinful habits until after they are converted and born again.

TE: Anyway, you didn't answer my question. How many sinful habits do you think we have cultivated since birth? A rough number or range would be find. I'm very interested in knowing how you perceive this.

MM: I’ve already answered this question. I don’t remember if it was on this thread or another one. I answered it by quoting the following passage:

4T 384, 385
Another book was opened, wherein were recorded the sins of those who profess the truth. Under the general heading of selfishness came every other sin. There were also headings over every column, and underneath these, opposite each name, were recorded, in their respective columns, the lesser sins. {4T 384.3}

Under covetousness came falsehood, theft, robbery, fraud, and avarice; under ambition came pride and extravagance; jealousy stood at the head of malice, envy, and hatred; and intemperance headed a long list of fearful crimes, such as lasciviousness, adultery, indulgence of animal passions, etc. {4T 385.1}

TE: Regrading being fully reconciled, we are fully reconciled when we are justified by faith.

MM: Here is how Sister White describes it:

“Justification by faith is to many a mystery. A sinner is justified by God when he repents of his sins.” (OHC 52)

MM: Sinners are justified “when” (not before) they repent of their “sins”.

“God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul.” (FW 100)

MM: The heart must be surrendered “entirely” (not partially) before they are justified.

“Genuine faith will be manifested in good works; for good works are the fruits of faith. As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and cooperates with God, he works out in the life what God works in by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained.” (1SM 397)

MM: “Every sin” (not some or most) must crucified to obtain justification.

You're taking these quotes out of context, in addition to taking them from different sources. The process of conversion is simple. A person is convinced of their need for Christ by the revealtion of God's love through Christ crucified. The person reprents, and gives his life to Christ. That's it.

The sins which God reveals are a means to an end, a way to bring a person into harmony with God. Our sins prevent us from accepting Christ, so the Holy Spirit reveals them to us, so that we can accept Christ and be reconciled. God doesn't reveal every sin, because that's neither necessary nor practical. The sins of which we have no sense of guilt do not prevent us from giving our hearts to Christ.

TE: Conversion is not about sins. It's about a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is established by faith.

MM: “Conversion is not about sins.” I disagree.

I know. This is the problem, as I see it. I see conversion as having to do with Jesus Christ, and you see it as having to do with sins. I guess we'll just have to leave it at that.

It is during the “process of conversion” that sinners convert, by faith, from sinning to not sinning to maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

TE: What you are calling the "process of conversion" would be better termed "the process of sanctification."

MM: I disagree. The process of sanctification begins the moment a person completes the process of conversion.

If one understand the process of conversion as not finishing until some time after one has been saved, then the following from Acts shows what you are asserting can't be right:



When one is justified by faith (saved), the process of sanctification has begun. We are sanctified by faith. This is a process which continues throughout the believer's lifetime. We are saved by faith, and sanctified by faith. Or, to put it another way, "the just shall live by faith." Our salvation is from "faith to faith." There's no "waiting" until some process is completed, other than the process of giving one's heart to Christ. This is all that's necessary. This is repeated throughout Scripture. For example, the publican was justified when he prayed, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner." Jesus tells us he stands at the door and knocks. If we hear His voice and respond, He enters and fellowships with us.


“This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another.” (ML 250)

Right! And this begins when one has given his heart to Christ. It has nothing to do with confessing every sinful habit.

MM: Not from one stage of imperfection to a lesser stage of imperfection, as you seem to be saying.

Not at all! If you read Scripture, (or the spirit of prophecy), you will see that the "merits of Christ's righteousness" (to use Ellen White's phraseology) cause us to stand perfect in God's sight. We are "accepted in the beloved" not by virture of our works, but because by faith we lay hold of Christ's righteousness. I'm using traditional theological language here. There are non-theological ways of communicating the same thing, but I'm using language which is very, very common in Ellen White's writings.

.............................

Quote:
MM: The appointed way is to lean how to live, by faith, in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Also, it is you who believes Jesus waits to reveal certain sinful habits until we are converted and born again.

TE: And you too!! For example, you've mentioned smoking and pologamy as examples (in certain cases). I assume drinking must be an example as well, if Luther wasn't lost. And Sabbath-breaking, and other sinful habits related to the first four commandments. Right?

MM: I do not believe people complete the process of conversion, that is, converting from sinning to not sinning to maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, before they learn how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded.

Before you accepted smoking and polygamy as "exceptions to the rule." Drinking would have to be excepted as well, to allow for Luther. Unless he was never converted. Given you define "conversion" as what seems to be "perfection," perhaps you don't see that Luther was converted(?)

No conversion is complete until people are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Again, it is you who believes Jesus waits to reveal to people certain sinful habits until after they are converted and born again.

You've also said this in the past. Maybe you are backing off from what you said before, I don't know. The smoking and polygamy were your "exceptions."

TE: Anyway, you didn't answer my question. How many sinful habits do you think we have cultivated since birth? A rough number or range would be find. I'm very interested in knowing how you perceive this.

MM: I’ve already answered this question. I don’t remember if it was on this thread or another one. I answered it by quoting the following passage:

4T 384, 385
Another book was opened, wherein were recorded the sins of those who profess the truth. Under the general heading of selfishness came every other sin. There were also headings over every column, and underneath these, opposite each name, were recorded, in their respective columns, the lesser sins. {4T 384.3}

Under covetousness came falsehood, theft, robbery, fraud, and avarice; under ambition came pride and extravagance; jealousy stood at the head of malice, envy, and hatred; and intemperance headed a long list of fearful crimes, such as lasciviousness, adultery, indulgence of animal passions, etc. {4T 385.1}

So is your answer one? Or two? what? You're being awfully evasive here. The quotes you are presenting seem to be in harmony with the quote by Waggoner I presented. However, what you say elsewhere seems to indicate it is a long protracted process, implying that there many, many sins that we must patiently wait for God to reveal. If the answer is really only one or two (e.g. "selfishness" and "covetousness"), then surely that wouldn't take God very long, right? That could happen in a few seconds (and with no need of being able to recite the 10 commandments either!)

JB: Could you tell us what truth you discovered in 1995 and how it gave you victory over sin?

MM: I discovered the truth about the process of conversion and the miracle of rebirth. And it is the truth as it is in Jesus that empowers me to recognize and resist sin, self, and Satan, and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. By faith, it is the law and love of God that enables me to experience the promises of perfection.

I discovered that God does not wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain cultivated sinful habits. I discovered that conversion is not a lifelong process of becoming less and less sinful by becoming more and more sinless.

I discovered we begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. If we complete the process of conversion in God’s appointed way, we are born again without our sinful habits. Like Jesus we begin perfect (complete) and we become perfect (mature). We are born again dead to sin and awake to righteousness. Abiding by faith in Jesus empowers us to be like Jesus, to reveal the law and love of God in our thoughts, words, and deeds.

I discovered that not sinning is normal Christian behavior, that maturing in the fruits of the Spirit is normal. So long as we are abiding in Jesus, so long as we are partaking of the divine nature, so long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not, yea, cannot, commit a known sin. No, we do not lose the ability or freedom to sin. But in Christ we will not choose to sin.

I was very interested in how you would answer JB's question. I notice that you seem to equate your conversion not with a decision, involving a recognition of your need for Christ and a surrender of the heart to Him, accepting Him as your personal Savior, but rather as a list of "discoveries." In other words, things you learned.

As Paul points out, knowledge "puffs up," but love edifies.

We have need of the love of God shed abroad in our heart. It is the revelation of God's character revealed through Christ crucified which does this. This love, if we allow it, melts our cold, hard hearts. This love, responded to on our part by faith, is what completes the process of conversion.

We love because He first loved us, and love is the fulfilling of the law.

Ive tried to define my point in some of these threads during the past month or so. For the moment, that will have to do.

TE: You're taking these quotes [on justification] out of context, in addition to taking them from different sources.

MM: I disagree they are out of context. And we are counseled to compare different statements on the same subject. They give us a balanced picture of the truth.

TE: The process of conversion is simple. A person is convinced of their need for Christ by the revealtion of God's love through Christ crucified. The person reprents, and gives his life to Christ. That's it.

MM: I agree that is it in a nutshell. However, we disagree as to what we must repent of before we complete the process of converting worldliness to godliness. You believe God waits to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is more convenient. In the meantime, they continue to practice them.

TE: The sins which God reveals are a means to an end, a way to bring a person into harmony with God. Our sins prevent us from accepting Christ, so the Holy Spirit reveals them to us, so that we can accept Christ and be reconciled. God doesn't reveal every sin, because that's neither necessary nor practical. The sins of which we have no sense of guilt do not prevent us from giving our hearts to Christ.

MM: We have zero “sense of guilt” for our sinful habits before we embark upon the process of conversion, before God begins exposing them to our sight in light of the cross. We may realize they are morally wrong, but not in the sense it drives us to Jesus for salvation. The SOP says we become aware of “every” sinful habit before we are converted.

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

TE: I see conversion as having to do with Jesus Christ, and you see it as having to do with sins. I guess we'll just have to leave it at that.

MM: You grossly misrepresent what I believe. Brother Den has labored to point this out. Please reconsider his counsel. Thank you.

TE: When one is justified by faith (saved), the process of sanctification has begun. We are sanctified by faith. This is a process which continues throughout the believer's lifetime. We are saved by faith, and sanctified by faith. Or, to put it another way, "the just shall live by faith." Our salvation is from "faith to faith." …

MM: I totally agree.

TE: … There's no "waiting" until some process is completed, other than the process of giving one's heart to Christ. This is all that's necessary. This is repeated throughout Scripture. For example, the publican was justified when he prayed, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner." Jesus tells us he stands at the door and knocks. If we hear His voice and respond, He enters and fellowships with us.

MM: I agree. But we disagree as to the condition of our heart when we surrender all to Jesus. Jesus first impresses us to confess and then empowers us to crucify our sinful habits, in light of the cross, before He starts dwelling within us. He will not occupy a divided throne.

“There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ.” (1 S&T 246)

“The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on “kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.” (SD 300)

“We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ. (5T 47)

“But Jesus was ever presenting before them that these [defective traits of character] must be given up, emptied from the soul, that he might implant a new nature therein. (RH 10-5-1897)

“God will not occupy a divided heart or reign from a divided throne. Every rival that holds the affections and diverts them from the God of love must be dethroned. The Lord demands all that there is of us, and there must be no reserve.” (TMK 63)

EGW: This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another.” (ML 250)

TE: Right! And this begins when one has given his heart to Christ. It has nothing to do with confessing every sinful habit.

MM: According to your theory it would have to include confessing and crucifying sinful habits; otherwise, they would continue to practice them.

MM: Not from one stage of imperfection to a lesser stage of imperfection, as you seem to be saying.

TE: Not at all! If you read Scripture, (or the spirit of prophecy), you will see that the "merits of Christ's righteousness" (to use Ellen White's phraseology) cause us to stand perfect in God's sight. We are "accepted in the beloved" not by virture of our works, but because by faith we lay hold of Christ's righteousness.

MM: Are you suggesting that Jesus clothes people who are practicing sinful habits with His justifying robe of righteousness? If so, then you are odds with the SOP.

“The righteousness of Christ is not a cloak to cover unconfessed and unforsaken sin; it is a principle of life that transforms the character and controls the conduct. Holiness is wholeness for God; it is the entire surrender of heart and life to the indwelling of the principles of heaven. . . . Every converted soul will, like Zacchaeus, signalize the entrance of Christ into his heart by an abandonment of the unrighteous practices that have marked his life. (DA 556)

“By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God’s commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. (COL 311)


MM: I do not believe people complete the process of conversion, that is, converting from sinning to not sinning to maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, before they learn how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded.

TE: Before you accepted smoking and polygamy as "exceptions to the rule." Drinking would have to be excepted as well, to allow for Luther. Unless he was never converted. Given you define "conversion" as what seems to be "perfection," perhaps you don't see that Luther was converted(?)

MM: The sins of ignorance God once winked at He now calls us to repent of. “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.” (Acts 17:30) Again, just because people do not complete the process of conversion before they die, it does not necessarily mean they are lost. There are conditions.

MM: No conversion is complete until people are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Again, it is you who believes Jesus waits to reveal to people certain sinful habits until after they are converted and born again.

TE: You've also said this in the past. Maybe you are backing off from what you said before, I don't know. The smoking and polygamy were your "exceptions."

MM: I’m not backing off. Instead, I am clarifying the difference between completing the process and being saved.

TE: So is your answer one? Or two? what? You're being awfully evasive here. The quotes you are presenting seem to be in harmony with the quote by Waggoner I presented. However, what you say elsewhere seems to indicate it is a long protracted process, implying that there many, many sins that we must patiently wait for God to reveal. If the answer is really only one or two (e.g. "selfishness" and "covetousness"), then surely that wouldn't take God very long, right? That could happen in a few seconds (and with no need of being able to recite the 10 commandments either!)

MM: People who cannot “recite” the 10Cs or who are unfamiliar with them cannot consciously obey or observe the principles inherent within them, right? They may, like heathens who have never heard of Jesus, live in harmony with the last six, but not the first four.

The quote I posted listed several subtitles under the general heading of selfishness. The sinful habits we cultivate before we experience the miracle of rebirth fall under these subtitles. The many different ways we cultivate sinful impatience, for example, all come under one subtitle. During the process of conversion the sin of impatience is revealed to us, which includes all forms of it, and if we confess it we can crucify it when we complete the process of conversion. Until it is crucified it will continue, more or less, to control our lives.

MM: Should I assume that the definitions I provided are the opposite of what you believe? Does your definition of "converted" mean people begin to gradually give up, as God reveals them, their sinful habits?

In light of Tom's ideas regarding the revelation of sinful habits versus the revelation of the love of God, and the role each one plays during the process of conversion - I thought the following quote was interesting:

3SM 154, 155
"A new heart will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you." I believe with all my heart that the Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the world, and those who have had great light and opportunities and have not improved them, will be the first to be left. They have grieved away the Spirit of God. The present activity of Satan in working upon hearts, and upon churches and nations should startle every student of prophecy. The end is near. Let our churches arise. Let the converting power of God be experienced in the heart of the individual members, and then we shall see the deep moving of the Spirit of God. Mere forgiveness of sin is not the sole result of the death of Jesus. He made the infinite sacrifice not only that sin might be removed, but that human nature might be restored, rebeautified, reconstructed from its ruins, and made fit for the presence of God. . . . {3SM 154.1}

Christ is the ladder which Jacob saw whose base rested on the earth and whose topmost round reached the highest heavens. This shows the appointed method of salvation. We are to climb round after round of this ladder. If any one of us shall finally be saved, it will be by clinging to Jesus as to the rounds of a ladder. Christ is made unto the believer wisdom and righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. . . . {3SM 154.2}

There will be some terrible falls by those who think they stand firm because they have the truth; but they have it not as it is in Jesus. A moment's carelessness may plunge a soul into irretrievable ruin. One sin leads to the second, and the second prepares the way for a third and so on. We must as faithful messengers of God, plead with Him constantly to be kept by His power. If we swerve a single inch from duty we are in danger of following on in a course of sin that ends in perdition. There is hope for every one of us, but only in one way--by fastening ourselves to Christ, and exerting every energy to attain to the perfection of His character. {3SM 154.3}

This goody-goody religion that makes light of sin and that is forever dwelling upon the love of God to the sinner, encourages the sinner to believe that God will save him while he continues in sin and he knows it to be sin. This is the way that many are doing who profess to believe present truth. The truth is kept apart from their life, and that is the reason it has no more power to convict and convert the soul. There must be a straining of every nerve and spirit and muscle to leave the world, its customs, its practices, and its fashions. . . . {3SM 155.1}

If you put away sin and exercise living faith, the riches of heaven's blessings will be yours.--Letter 53, 1887. {3SM 155.2}

The above describes the process of being born again, doesn't it?

I think the "Pilgrimms Progress" is a book that illustrates much of my views on the issue.

That's a great book.

Tom, am I to assume you are not going to address my posts? that the one quote you posted proves all the quotes I posted mean people are converted and born again before they crucify their sinful habits? that my take on it is incorrect?

I'll answer your posts (don't I always?).

Maybe I didn't see them, I don't know.

Anyway, do you agree that the DA quote is describing being "born again"?

TE: You're taking these quotes [on justification] out of context, in addition to taking them from different sources.

MM: I disagree they are out of context. And we are counseled to compare different statements on the same subject. They give us a balanced picture of the truth.

TE: The process of conversion is simple. A person is convinced of their need for Christ by the revelation of God's love through Christ crucified. The person repents, and gives his life to Christ. That's it.

MM: I agree that is it in a nutshell. However, we disagree as to what we must repent of before we complete the process of converting worldliness to godliness. You believe God waits to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is more convenient. In the meantime, they continue to practice them.

You also agree to this, in the case of smoking and polygamy. At least, you've said this in the past. But actually, the real difference is that you have a completely different idea as to what conversion consists of. I see it as the same thing as "being saved." If I'm understanding what you've written correctly, you would say that non-SDA's can be saved, but not converted, because to be converted one needs to follow all things that Jesus commanded, which are incorporated in the 28 fundamental beliefs, but to be saved, living up to the light one has is sufficient.

TE: The sins which God reveals are a means to an end, a way to bring a person into harmony with God. Our sins prevent us from accepting Christ, so the Holy Spirit reveals them to us, so that we can accept Christ and be reconciled. God doesn't reveal every sin, because that's neither necessary nor practical. The sins of which we have no sense of guilt do not prevent us from giving our hearts to Christ.

MM: We have zero “sense of guilt” for our sinful habits before we embark upon the process of conversion, before God begins exposing them to our sight in light of the cross.

There is not time in or lives where we have "zero sense of guilt." So if you define our embarking upon the process of conversion as being born, then I agree with your statement.

We may realize they are morally wrong, but not in the sense it drives us to Jesus for salvation.
The SOP says we become aware of “every” sinful habit before we are converted.

You're misreading her intent. The "every" applies to things we are aware of as being wrong, of course. It doesn't incorporate things we don't know are wrong. For example, a non-SDA would not be aware of breaking the Sabbath, but SC 29 is speaking to their conversion just as much as to the conversion of an SDA. There's absolutely nothing in SC which applies only to SDA's. She gives no indication that conversion means anything different than being saved.

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

TE: I see conversion as having to do with Jesus Christ, and you see it as having to do with sins. I guess we'll just have to leave it at that.

MM: You grossly misrepresent what I believe. Brother Den has labored to point this out. Please reconsider his counsel. Thank you.

Here's what you wrote:



How does what I wrote "grossly misrepresent" what you believe. If I say, "Conversion is not about sin? It's about a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is established by faith." and you respond "I disagree," how am I misrepresenting your view????

TE: When one is justified by faith (saved), the process of sanctification has begun. We are sanctified by faith. This is a process which continues throughout the believer's lifetime. We are saved by faith, and sanctified by faith. Or, to put it another way, "the just shall live by faith." Our salvation is from "faith to faith." …

MM: I totally agree.

Do you see "justified by faith" as meaning the same things as "saved," but not the same thing as "converted" or "born again"?

TE: … There's no "waiting" until some process is completed, other than the process of giving one's heart to Christ. This is all that's necessary. This is repeated throughout Scripture. For example, the publican was justified when he prayed, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner." Jesus tells us he stands at the door and knocks. If we hear His voice and respond, He enters and fellowships with us.

MM: I agree. But we disagree as to the condition of our heart when we surrender all to Jesus.

I don't think we disagree on this point.

Jesus first impresses us to confess and then empowers us to crucify our sinful habits, in light of the cross, before He starts dwelling within us. He will not occupy a divided throne.

We disagree here. I see that what Waggoner wrote about this is correct.



I agree with the SOP statements. What I disagree with is your idea that every sinful habit cultivated from birth is revealed. As Waggoner points out, to do this "He would have to lengthen my probation longer than I believe He possibly can, for me to repeat the smallest part of them."

Instead, God "shows us the representative sins of our lives." God's purpose is to lead us to repentance, not to overwhelm us.

Here's an example from real life. Let's says you and I are good friends, and something happens where you become offended at me, and start treating me poorly, but I do not reciprocate. I treat you well, and you know I am treating you well. Let's say your anger against me is due to some misunderstanding you've had, some idea about me which is not true. Later on you discover the thing you thought was true isn't, and you realize you've done wrong by me. So you seek for me to forgive you. I see that you're distraught, and start to forgive you, but you say, "Wait, I haven't confessed all my sins." I say, "There's no need to do that. I can see your sorry. That's good enough."

Now do you think I would insist that you confess every single bad things you've done before peace could be established between us? How petty would that make me to do such a thing?

As Waggoner points out, the story of the prodigal son demonstrates that God is not this way. The father stopped the son as the son was trying to get out his rehearsed speech. What do you think this story is trying to convey? It's teaching us that God is quick to forgive, and He doesn't have a list of sins we have to confess before we can be made right with him. As 1 Cor. 13 tells us, "Love does not keep track of wrongs".

God is quick to forgive. The sacrifices of a contrite heart, He will not despise.

MM: You didn't answer my question. It doesn’t concern conversion.

1. Do you agree God raised up the SDA church to teach everyone everywhere how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded?


TE: The above describes the process of being born again, doesn't it?

MM: Yes, I believe it does. Here is what it says:

1. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself.

MM: At this point in the process people are not converted or born again yet. Do you agree?

2. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour.

MM: They repent of, in light of the cross, their sins (we do not agree on which sinful habits God waits to reveal until after they are born again), but they’re still not yet converted or born again. Do you agree?

3. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.

MM: The word “then” indicates a before and after sequence. I believe it pinpoints the precise moment they experience the miracle of conversion and rebirth. Do you agree?

4. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.

MM: The phrase "are brought into obedience” is present tense. It is saying the "thoughts and desires" are brought into obedience to the will of God the moment they are born again. It does not mean they are gradually brought into obedience over a long period of time. I’m fairly sure you do not agree with this insight. Am I right?

5. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself.

MM: While abiding in Jesus they are empowered to subdue, that is, kept from resurfacing, “all” (not some) of their former sinful habits the moment they are converted and reborn. Again, I doubt you agree. Am I right?

6. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God."

MM: The word “then” in this sentence reiterates the before and after sequence pinpointed in the above mentioned sentence. It describes them delighting in doing the will of God (present tense) as outlined in the law. It does not portray them looking forward to the day (future tense) when they will be able to do it. I’m sure you disagree. Am I right?

TE: You have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted?

MM: Tom, Jesus raised up the Remnant Church to restore and repair the truths that were all but lost during the Dark Ages. “Thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.” (Isa 58:12) Which church do you believe is the Remnant Church of prophecy? I believe it is the SDA church.

TE: You are the only person I'm aware of that holds to this idea of conversion.

MM: You didn't answer my question. It doesn’t concern conversion.

You didn't answer my question. It does concern conversion.

A lot of your questions look to me to be rhetorical. Like which church do I believe is the Remnant Church. Isn't that in our 28 fundamental beliefs? You know I believe these (if you've paid attention), so your question is rhetorical, isn't it?

At any rate, please answer my question.


1. Do you agree God raised up the SDA church to teach everyone everywhere how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded?

This isn't how I would phrase it. Here's how I would phrase it:



Quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.(DA 175, 176)

TE: The above describes the process of being born again, doesn't it?

MM: Yes, I believe it does.

Then how can you distinguish between being saved and being born again, since the description starts out with the question, "How, then, are we to be saved?"

Here is what it says:

1. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself.

MM: At this point in the process people are not converted or born again yet. Do you agree?

2. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour.

MM: They repent of, in light of the cross, their sins (we do not agree on which sinful habits God waits to reveal until after they are born again), but they’re still not yet converted or born again. Do you agree?

3. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.

MM: The word “then” indicates a before and after sequence. I believe it pinpoints the precise moment they experience the miracle of conversion and rebirth. Do you agree?

4. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.

MM: The phrase "are brought into obedience” is present tense. It is saying the "thoughts and desires" are brought into obedience to the will of God the moment they are born again. It does not mean they are gradually brought into obedience over a long period of time. I’m fairly sure you do not agree with this insight. Am I right?

5. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself.

MM: While abiding in Jesus they are empowered to subdue, that is, kept from resurfacing, “all” (not some) of their former sinful habits the moment they are converted and reborn. Again, I doubt you agree. Am I right?

6. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God."

MM: The word “then” in this sentence reiterates the before and after sequence pinpointed in the above mentioned sentence. It describes them delighting in doing the will of God (present tense) as outlined in the law. It does not portray them looking forward to the day (future tense) when they will be able to do it. I’m sure you disagree. Am I right?

I understand that the sinner responds to the love of God revealed at the cross by repenting (ceasing to fight against God; which is repentance of sins is about. That is, repentance is necessary because it implies a change of direction. If we are fighting against God, we can't be at peace with Him.) and is reconciled to God. This reconciliation is more than the mere forgiveness of sins, but involves a new creation. The heart and mind is brought into harmony with God. What brings about this change is faith in God; faith in His promises, faith in His character, faith in Christ.

I'm not comfortable trying to nit-pick too finely each step along the way(I assume you're aware that we have counsel not to do this.), which is why I'm not responding to the points individually.

TE: If I'm understanding what you've written correctly, you would say that non-SDA's can be saved, but not converted, because to be converted one needs to follow all things that Jesus commanded, which are incorporated in the 28 fundamental beliefs, but to be saved, living up to the light one has is sufficient.

MM: People who are in the process of converting from darkness to light complete the process when they are no longer in darkness. Even if they have completed 99% of the process they still haven’t completed the process. Do you see how this applies?

TE: There is not time in or lives where we have "zero sense of guilt."

MM: I believe people who have completed the process of conversion, people who are abiding in Jesus, people who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, people who are partaking of the divine nature, people who are obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded – I believe these people are blessed with zero guilt.


TE: You're misreading her intent. The "every" applies to things we are aware of as being wrong, of course. It doesn't incorporate things we don't know are wrong.

MM: I disagree. I believe she is referring to people who are being led step by step to Christ in God’s appointed way, that is, learning how to observe everything Jesus commanded. The SC 29 quote is very clear. There is no indication it implies certain sinful habits are overlooked.

TE: For example, a non-SDA would not be aware of breaking the Sabbath, but SC 29 is speaking to their conversion just as much as to the conversion of an SDA. There's absolutely nothing in SC which applies only to SDA's. She gives no indication that conversion means anything different than being saved.

MM: I disagree.

………………………………….

TE: How does what I wrote "grossly misrepresent" what you believe. If I say, "Conversion is not about sin? It's about a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is established by faith." and you respond "I disagree," how am I misrepresenting your view????

MM: Because you know I believe the process of conversion is all about leading us from a life of crucifying Jesus to a life of exalting Him, to a life of fellowshipping with Him.

TE: Do you see "justified by faith" as meaning the same things as "saved," but not the same thing as "converted" or "born again"?

MM: It is God who must justify (to the on-looking universe) rewarding sinners with eternal life. He does this by demonstrating they are safe to save. Whether or not they complete the process of converting from darkness to light before they die does not necessarily mean they are not safe to save. No one will be in heaven who should not be there. God is doing everything He can to motivate everyone to demonstrate they are safe to save.

TE: Instead, God "shows us the representative sins of our lives." God's purpose is to lead us to repentance, not to overwhelm us.

MM: I agree. But it doesn’t stop us from feeling “stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God.” (SC 29)

TE: Now do you think I would insist that you confess every single bad things you've done before peace could be established between us? How petty would that make me to do such a thing?

MM: Expressing a “representative” apology would be ideal.

TE: It's teaching us that God is quick to forgive, and He doesn't have a list of sins we have to confess before we can be made right with him. As 1 Cor. 13 tells us, "Love does not keep track of wrongs".

MM: I disagree. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9. Here is how the SOP puts it:



TE: God is quick to forgive. The sacrifices of a contrite heart, He will not despise.

MM: Amen!

TE: A lot of your questions look to me to be rhetorical. Like which church do I believe is the Remnant Church. Isn't that in our 28 fundamental beliefs? You know I believe these (if you've paid attention), so your question is rhetorical, isn't it?

MM: Thank you for making it clear you believe the SDA church is the Remnant Church of prophecy.

TE: At any rate, please answer my question – “You have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted?”

MM: . . . in order to complete the process of converting from darkness to light as prescribed by Jesus, namely, to obey everything He commanded, which is the mission and message of the Remnant Church.

TE: “Do you agree God raised up the SDA church to teach everyone everywhere how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded?” This isn't how I would phrase it. Here's how I would phrase it (COL 415, 416):

MM: Does your quote and my question contradict each other? In other words, does your quote disagree with the idea that Jesus commissioned the Remnant Church to teach everyone everywhere how to obey and observe everything he commanded?

TE: Then how can you distinguish between being saved and being born again, since the description starts out with the question, "How, then, are we to be saved?"

MM: Because we are “saved” during the process of converting from darkness to light (if we do not refuse to confess certain sinful habits).

TE: I understand that the sinner responds to the love of God revealed at the cross by repenting . . . and is reconciled to God. This reconciliation is more than the mere forgiveness of sins, but involves a new creation. The heart and mind is brought into harmony with God. What brings about this change is faith in God; faith in His promises, faith in His character, faith in Christ.

MM: I agree. But you also believe it involves God waiting to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is right. The quote you posted disallows this view. I carefully pointed this out in the section you skipped over.

TE: I'm not comfortable trying to nit-pick too finely each step along the way(I assume you're aware that we have counsel not to do this.), which is why I'm not responding to the points individually.

MM: The quote you are referring to does not include understanding what God has revealed to us in the Bible or the SOP about the plan of salvation.

TE: If I'm understanding what you've written correctly, you would say that non-SDA's can be saved, but not converted, because to be converted one needs to follow all things that Jesus commanded, which are incorporated in the 28 fundamental beliefs, but to be saved, living up to the light one has is sufficient.

MM: People who are in the process of converting from darkness to light complete the process when they are no longer in darkness. Even if they have completed 99% of the process they still haven’t completed the process. Do you see how this applies?

I understand what you are saying, but completely disagree, because I see the fundamental issue completely differently than you do. I see the issue as involving our hearts, which are at enmity to God. Our cold, hard, bitter heart needs to be reconciled to God, who is love. This is accomplished by a revelation of His character, through Jesus Christ. Especially the cross provides the healing remedy that we need.

TE: There is not time in or lives where we have "zero sense of guilt."

MM: I believe people who have completed the process of conversion, people who are abiding in Jesus, people who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, people who are partaking of the divine nature, people who are obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded – I believe these people are blessed with zero guilt.

This sounds like opening one up to a dangerous self-deception, like the Holy Flesh movement. Once you think you've arrived, it's difficult to be convinced differently. The mind is exceptionally able at twisting things around to one's own perspective.

Quote:
SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

TE: You're misreading her intent. The "every" applies to things we are aware of as being wrong, of course. It doesn't incorporate things we don't know are wrong.

MM: I disagree. I believe she is referring to people who are being led step by step to Christ in God’s appointed way, that is, learning how to observe everything Jesus commanded. The SC 29 quote is very clear. There is no indication it implies certain sinful habits are overlooked.

Not only does SC 29 not discuss what you are suggesting, but none of it does. The idea that one needs to confess every sinful habit in order to be converted simply doesn't exist anywhere in inspiration. There's absolutely no reference to "every sinful habit cultivated since birth" either here or anywhere else.

TE: For example, a non-SDA would not be aware of breaking the Sabbath, but SC 29 is speaking to their conversion just as much as to the conversion of an SDA. There's absolutely nothing in SC which applies only to SDA's. She gives no indication that conversion means anything different than being saved.

MM: I disagree.

With what? With the statement the SC is dealing specifically with SDA's? Is this what you think? Or are you disagreeing with something else?

………………………………….

TE: How does what I wrote "grossly misrepresent" what you believe. If I say, "Conversion is not about sin? It's about a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is established by faith." and you respond "I disagree," how am I misrepresenting your view????

MM: Because you know I believe the process of conversion is all about leading us from a life of crucifying Jesus to a life of exalting Him, to a life of fellowshipping with Him.

MM, I made the statement that conversion was not about sins, but about faith in Christ. You disagreed with that statement. Here it is again:



You can't fairly accuse me of grossly misrepresenting your view when I'm just repeating back what you said. If you wish to retract, or modify this, please go ahead. But otherwise, if I continue to say that you believe that conversion is not about a relationship with Jesus Christ, but about sin, there's no way you can suggest I'm misrepresenting your view, OK? I mean, just look above!

TE: Do you see "justified by faith" as meaning the same things as "saved," but not the same thing as "converted" or "born again"?

MM: It is God who must justify (to the on-looking universe) rewarding sinners with eternal life. He does this by demonstrating they are safe to save. Whether or not they complete the process of converting from darkness to light before they die does not necessarily mean they are not safe to save. No one will be in heaven who should not be there. God is doing everything He can to motivate everyone to demonstrate they are safe to save.

What's the answer please. To your way of thinking, does "justification by faith" mean the same thing as "saved" or the same thing as "born again"? (or something else).

TE: Instead, God "shows us the representative sins of our lives." God's purpose is to lead us to repentance, not to overwhelm us.

MM: I agree. But it doesn’t stop us from feeling “stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God.” (SC 29)

No one has suggested otherwise.

TE: Now do you think I would insist that you confess every single bad things you've done before peace could be established between us? How petty would that make me to do such a thing?

MM: Expressing a “representative” apology would be ideal.

You mean like, "I'm sorry I misunderstood you in think that you were (or had done) blah, blah, blah. Please forgive me"?

TE: It's teaching us that God is quick to forgive, and He doesn't have a list of sins we have to confess before we can be made right with him. As 1 Cor. 13 tells us, "Love does not keep track of wrongs".

MM: I disagree.

Here it is:



"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9. Here is how the SOP puts it:

Quote:
True confession is always of a specific character, and acknowledges particular sins. They may be of such a nature as to be brought before God only; they may be wrongs that should be confessed to individuals who have suffered injury through them; or they may be of a public character, and should then be as publicly confessed. But all confession should be definite and to the point, acknowledging the very sins of which you are guilty. {SC 38.1}


TE: God is quick to forgive. The sacrifices of a contrite heart, He will not despise.

MM: Amen!

TE: A lot of your questions look to me to be rhetorical. Like which church do I believe is the Remnant Church. Isn't that in our 28 fundamental beliefs? You know I believe these (if you've paid attention), so your question is rhetorical, isn't it?

MM: Thank you for making it clear you believe the SDA church is the Remnant Church of prophecy.

It surprises me that you would be confused about such a thing.

TE: At any rate, please answer my question – “You have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted?”

MM: . . . in order to complete the process of converting from darkness to light as prescribed by Jesus, namely, to obey everything He commanded, which is the mission and message of the Remnant Church.

So this is "yes," right?

TE: “Do you agree God raised up the SDA church to teach everyone everywhere how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded?” This isn't how I would phrase it. Here's how I would phrase it (COL 415, 416):

MM: Does your quote and my question contradict each other? In other words, does your quote disagree with the idea that Jesus commissioned the Remnant Church to teach everyone everywhere how to obey and observe everything he commanded?

Your whole way of looking at things is different than mine. I'm answering you in terms of how I look at things. It's not that there's a contradiction, but that you're not emphasizing, IMO, the right thing, which the quote I provided does. The big question relates to God's character. That's the message to be given to the world. The "all things" Christ commanded relate specifically to this truth. Apart from this truth, the questions you are asking are, to my mind, incomplete and misleading.

TE: Then how can you distinguish between being saved and being born again, since the description starts out with the question, "How, then, are we to be saved?"

MM: Because we are “saved” during the process of converting from darkness to light (if we do not refuse to confess certain sinful habits).

The quote simply asks the question, "How are we to be saved." It's clearly her intent to answer that question by the rest of her answer. Given that she describes being born again, it's as clear as sunlight that being saved is synonomous with being born again.

TE: I understand that the sinner responds to the love of God revealed at the cross by repenting . . . and is reconciled to God. This reconciliation is more than the mere forgiveness of sins, but involves a new creation. The heart and mind is brought into harmony with God. What brings about this change is faith in God; faith in His promises, faith in His character, faith in Christ.

MM: I agree. But you also believe it involves God waiting to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is right.

I've never said this. You keep wanting to put my way of thinking of things according to how you think of things. But I don't think of things that way! I've never said that conversion involves God's waiting to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is right. Conversion involves God's revealing Christ to us, and our need for Him. That's what I've said. It doesn't involve God's not doing something.

The quote you posted disallows this view. I carefully pointed this out in the section you skipped over.

I don't know what you're talking about here.

TE: I'm not comfortable trying to nit-pick too finely each step along the way(I assume you're aware that we have counsel not to do this.), which is why I'm not responding to the points individually.

MM: The quote you are referring to does not include understanding what God has revealed to us in the Bible or the SOP about the plan of salvation.

I think it does, if by "understanding" you mean "pick apart with a fine-toothed comb." The process of our perceving our need for Christ and reaching out to Him, or, perhaps more accurately, responding to His love is interwoven. You can't say with such great distinction, I don't believe, at this point the person still isn't converted. Now, poof!, he is.

If you can find the quote, please post it.

TE: I understand what you are saying, but completely disagree, because I see the fundamental issue completely differently than you do. I see the issue as involving our hearts, which are at enmity to God. Our cold, hard, bitter heart needs to be reconciled to God, who is love. This is accomplished by a revelation of His character, through Jesus Christ. Especially the cross provides the healing remedy that we need.

MM: I also see it as a matter of the heart. But do you see it as a matter of the mind, too, like I do? “For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.” God wants us to be intelligent Christians, too, right? He cannot restore us if we are ignorant of the truth. The work of conversion is not complete until we are ready for translation.

1. Do you agree no one will be translated alive if they are ignorant of the truth? Will anyone slip past probation ignorant of the 3AMs and be caught up to meet Jesus in the air?


TE: This [living with zero guilt] sounds like opening one up to a dangerous self-deception, like the Holy Flesh movement. Once you think you've arrived, it's difficult to be convinced differently. The mind is exceptionally able at twisting things around to one's own perspective.

MM: I agree people must be careful not to excuse sinning with a false sense of security and freedom, but I disagree they must nurture a sense of guilt to avoid being guilty. The truth sets us free. We are free indeed if we are abiding in Jesus. “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” “Ye may know that ye have eternal life.”

TE: Not only does SC 29 not discuss what you are suggesting, but none of it does. The idea that one needs to confess every sinful habit in order to be converted simply doesn't exist anywhere in inspiration. There's absolutely no reference to "every sinful habit cultivated since birth" either here or anywhere else.

MM: I disagree. I believe the word “every” in SC 29 means “every”, not some. She is very clear about it. “The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man.” (SD 300) Not gradually crucified after we are born again, as you seem to believe. God does not keep people in the dark, as you seem to believe, regarding their sinful habits.

TE: “I disagree” With what? With the statement the SC is dealing specifically with SDA's? Is this what you think? Or are you disagreeing with something else?

MM: Again, I believe SC 29 refers to people who are experiencing the initial steps of conversion in God’s appointed way. See Matthew 28:19, 20.

TE: MM, I made the statement that conversion was not about sins, but about faith in Christ. You disagreed with that statement. . . . You can't fairly accuse me of grossly misrepresenting your view when I'm just repeating back what you said.

MM: The part I disagreed with was “Conversion is not about sins.” I agree it takes saving faith to complete the process of converting from darkness to light. You know very well that I believe this way, and yet your words make it seem as if all I care about is being set free from sin, that having a relationship with Jesus is secondary or unimportant. In this way you grossly misrepresent what I believe.

TE: To your way of thinking, does "justification by faith" mean the same thing as "saved" or the same thing as "born again"? (or something else).

MM: It means God covers us with Jesus’ robe of righteousness and then looks upon us as if we have never sinned. He will not impute the righteousness of Jesus to cover people who are practicing known sins. It applies only to those people who are living up the light they believe is right and true. It does not matter if they complete the process of converting from darkness to light before they die. Thus, the answer to your questions is “something else”.

TE: “Expressing a “representative” apology would be ideal.” You mean like, "I'm sorry I misunderstood you in think that you were (or had done) blah, blah, blah. Please forgive me"?

MM: Something like that.


TE: Here it is: “It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.” (1 Cor. 13:5)

MM: It is also written, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9. Sister White agrees:

SC 38
True confession is always of a specific character, and acknowledges particular sins. They may be of such a nature as to be brought before God only; they may be wrongs that should be confessed to individuals who have suffered injury through them; or they may be of a public character, and should then be as publicly confessed. But all confession should be definite and to the point, acknowledging the very sins of which you are guilty. {SC 38.1}

So, yes, God does have a record or knowledge of our sinful habits He wants to save us from, so that He can empower us to live in harmony with His will and way, so we can be like Jesus. How can God make “us right with Him” without setting us free from the sinful habits that make us unlike Jesus?

TE: So this is "yes," right?

MM: Not “yes” to your statement, but to the second one. To “be converted” a person must complete the process of converting from darkness to light. 99% is 1% short of being “converted”.


TE: Your whole way of looking at things is different than mine. I'm answering you in terms of how I look at things. It's not that there's a contradiction, but that you're not emphasizing, IMO, the right thing, which the quote I provided does. The big question relates to God's character. That's the message to be given to the world. The "all things" Christ commanded relate specifically to this truth. Apart from this truth, the questions you are asking are, to my mind, incomplete and misleading.

MM: Are you assuming teaching people how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded, in accordance with Jesus’ commission, means divorcing having a faith-based relationship with God, an appreciation of His character and kingdom?


TE: The quote simply asks the question, "How are we to be saved." It's clearly her intent to answer that question by the rest of her answer. Given that she describes being born again, it's as clear as sunlight that being saved is synonomous with being born again.

MM: I agree. But people can be “saved” during the process of converting, before they are born again.


TE: I've never said this. You keep wanting to put my way of thinking of things according to how you think of things. But I don't think of things that way! I've never said that conversion involves God's waiting to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is right. Conversion involves God's revealing Christ to us, and our need for Him. That's what I've said. It doesn't involve God's not doing something.

MM: Do you agree with me, then, that God reveals to people, in light of the cross, all of their sinful habits during the process of conversion, before they are born again? Or, do you believe God waits to reveal to them certain sinful habits until the time is right?


TE: I don't know what you're talking about here.

MM: Here is the part you skipped over without comment:


TE: I'm not comfortable trying to nit-pick too finely each step along the way(I assume you're aware that we have counsel not to do this.), which is why I'm not responding to the points individually.

MM: The quote you are referring to does not include understanding what God has revealed to us in the Bible or the SOP about the plan of salvation.

TE: I think it does, if by "understanding" you mean "pick apart with a fine-toothed comb." The process of our perceving our need for Christ and reaching out to Him, or, perhaps more accurately, responding to His love is interwoven. You can't say with such great distinction, I don't believe, at this point the person still isn't converted. Now, poof!, he is. If you can find the quote, please post it.

MM: “By their fruits ye shall know them.” We do not have to “judge” people to “discern” they are not obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded. It is true, though, that just because people appear to be in harmony with the law of God does not necessarily mean they are. It is not for us to judge motive.

However, the Bible and the SOP clearly define and describe the steps to Christ. We can know and experience these steps perfectly, unto the honor and glory of God our Father. Ignorance is not bliss; it cannot set us free from our sinful habits, it cannot make us like Jesus.

Doesnt this question lose some of its 'adventist' edge if instead of 3AM, you where to write:
1,fear the Judge, worship the Creator, GOD
2,counterfit religion is fallen
3,anyone who worships the beast will burn

TE: I understand what you are saying, but completely disagree, because I see the fundamental issue completely differently than you do. I see the issue as involving our hearts, which are at enmity to God. Our cold, hard, bitter heart needs to be reconciled to God, who is love. This is accomplished by a revelation of His character, through Jesus Christ. Especially the cross provides the healing remedy that we need.

MM: I also see it as a matter of the heart. But do you see it as a matter of the mind, too, like I do? “For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.” God wants us to be intelligent Christians, too, right? He cannot restore us if we are ignorant of the truth. The work of conversion is not complete until we are ready for translation.

1. Do you agree no one will be translated alive if they are ignorant of the truth? Will anyone slip past probation ignorant of the 3AMs and be caught up to meet Jesus in the air?

I understand the 3AMs as having to do with the Gospel, and in particular, God's character, as the COL quote I provided points out. But, with this caveat of a likely difference in emphasis, I agree your view (i.e. answer to your questions is "no" to both.)

Quote:
There is to be a people fitted up for translation to heaven, whom Enoch represents. They are looking and waiting for the coming of the Lord. The work will go on with all those who will cooperate with Jesus in the work of redemption. He gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. God has made every provision that they should be intelligent Christians, filled with a knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding. {TSB 86.3}

A theoretical knowledge of the truth is essential, but the knowledge of the greatest truth will not save us; our knowledge must be practical. God's people must not only know His will, but they must practice it. Many will be purged out from the numbers of those who know the truth, because they are not sanctified by it. The truth must be brought into their hearts, sanctifying and cleansing them from all earthliness and sensuality in the most private life. The soul temple must be cleansed. Every secret act is as if we were in the presence of God and holy angels, as all things are open before God, and from Him nothing can be hid. {TSB 86.4}

TE: This [living with zero guilt] sounds like opening one up to a dangerous self-deception, like the Holy Flesh movement. Once you think you've arrived, it's difficult to be convinced differently. The mind is exceptionally able at twisting things around to one's own perspective.

MM: I agree people must be careful not to excuse sinning with a false sense of security and freedom, but I disagree they must nurture a sense of guilt to avoid being guilty.

I'm constantly amazed at your ability to come to conclusions like this. I don't understand how you read things. It's really odd. "must nurture a sense of guilt to avoid being guilty"? What an idea! I doubt anyone in all history has suggested such a thing. I certainly haven't.

The truth sets us free. We are free indeed if we are abiding in Jesus. “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” “Ye may know that ye have eternal life.”

TE: Not only does SC 29 not discuss what you are suggesting, but none of it does. The idea that one needs to confess every sinful habit in order to be converted simply doesn't exist anywhere in inspiration. There's absolutely no reference to "every sinful habit cultivated since birth" either here or anywhere else.

MM: I disagree. I believe the word “every” in SC 29 means “every”, not some.

This sounds like the argument with Calvinists involving the meaning of the word "all." That is, it says "all the world would be taxed," but it's only a small portion of the world that was taxed. The word "every," like any word, needs to be taken in context. You must have some totally different idea about what she's talking about. I'm sure 99 out of a hundred people, more likely closer to 100 out of 100 on the average, would understand she's talking about the experience of a person being saved, not the experience of preparing for translation, which seems to be what you are talking about. It's true every sin must be brought to mind in order to be translated, but not to be born again. To enter heaven, whether by death or translation, one must be born again. She's not talking about an experience, in SC 29, that a non-SDA cannot have.

She is very clear about it. “The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man.” (SD 300) Not gradually crucified after we are born again, as you seem to believe. God does not keep people in the dark, as you seem to believe, regarding their sinful habits.

God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God!

TE: “I disagree” With what? With the statement the SC is dealing specifically with SDA's? Is this what you think? Or are you disagreeing with something else?

MM: Again, I believe SC 29 refers to people who are experiencing the initial steps of conversion in God’s appointed way. See Matthew 28:19, 20.

This isn't what I said. You previously disagreed with something I said. I asked for clarification about what it was that I said that you disagreed with. I asked you specific questions above regarding that. What specifically about I wrote did you disagree with? Is it with the statement that SC is dealing specifically with SDA's? Or something else?

TE: MM, I made the statement that conversion was not about sins, but about faith in Christ. You disagreed with that statement. . . . You can't fairly accuse me of grossly misrepresenting your view when I'm just repeating back what you said.

MM: The part I disagreed with was “Conversion is not about sins.” I agree it takes saving faith to complete the process of converting from darkness to light. You know very well that I believe this way, and yet your words make it seem as if all I care about is being set free from sin, that having a relationship with Jesus is secondary or unimportant. In this way you grossly misrepresent what I believe.

If I write a statment, and you respond "I disagree," I'm going to assume you're disagreeing with my statement. If what you really mean is that you disagree with a portion of it, don't start your response with "I disagree" and we can avoid these misunderstanding.

TE: To your way of thinking, does "justification by faith" mean the same thing as "saved" or the same thing as "born again"? (or something else).

MM: It means God covers us with Jesus’ robe of righteousness and then looks upon us as if we have never sinned. He will not impute the righteousness of Jesus to cover people who are practicing known sins. It applies only to those people who are living up the light they believe is right and true. It does not matter if they complete the process of converting from darkness to light before they die. Thus, the answer to your questions is “something else”.

Thank you. So "justification by faith," "saved," and "converted" are three different things. "Converted" is the same as "born again." I have this right, don't I? (you don't need to redescribe each of the terms, unless I'm wrong)

TE: “Expressing a “representative” apology would be ideal.” You mean like, "I'm sorry I misunderstood you in think that you were (or had done) blah, blah, blah. Please forgive me"?

MM: Something like that.

So you agree it would be petty of me to make you confess every wrong thing you've thought about me, or said in private conversations, etc. during the period you were mad at me? Isn't my seeing that you are truly contrite enough? Isn't this the message of the Prodigal Son? Before the son could rehearse his speech, the father had already forgiven him. In fact, before he evenn saw his son, he had already forgiven him.

Quote:
TE: It's teaching us that God is quick to forgive, and He doesn't have a list of sins we have to confess before we can be made right with him. As 1 Cor. 13 tells us, "Love does not keep track of wrongs".

MM: I disagree.

TE: Here it is: “It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.” (1 Cor. 13:5)

MM: It is also written, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9. Sister White agrees:

SC 38
True confession is always of a specific character, and acknowledges particular sins. They may be of such a nature as to be brought before God only; they may be wrongs that should be confessed to individuals who have suffered injury through them; or they may be of a public character, and should then be as publicly confessed. But all confession should be definite and to the point, acknowledging the very sins of which you are guilty. {SC 38.1}

So, yes, God does have a record or knowledge of our sinful habits He wants to save us from, so that He can empower us to live in harmony with His will and way, so we can be like Jesus. How can God make “us right with Him” without setting us free from the sinful habits that make us unlike Jesus?

I'm not sure what you're saying. 1 Cor. 13:5 clearly says that love (agape, and recall from John that God is agape) keeps no record of wrongs. You can't dispute that, because that's what it says. When you write, "it is also written ..." are you trying to make the point that 1 Cor. 13:5 is incorrect? I can't see where what you wrote addressed 1 Cor. 13:5 in any way. It must mean something.

TE: At any rate, please answer my question – “You have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted?”

MM: . . . in order to complete the process of converting from darkness to light as prescribed by Jesus, namely, to obey everything He commanded, which is the mission and message of the Remnant Church.

TE: So this is "yes," right?

MM: Not “yes” to your statement, but to the second one. To “be converted” a person must complete the process of converting from darkness to light. 99% is 1% short of being “converted”.

I still don't know the answer to my question. You believe you have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted, correct?

Quote:
TE: “Do you agree God raised up the SDA church to teach everyone everywhere how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded?” This isn't how I would phrase it. Here's how I would phrase it (COL 415, 416):

MM: Does your quote and my question contradict each other? In other words, does your quote disagree with the idea that Jesus commissioned the Remnant Church to teach everyone everywhere how to obey and observe everything he commanded?

TE: Your whole way of looking at things is different than mine. I'm answering you in terms of how I look at things. It's not that there's a contradiction, but that you're not emphasizing, IMO, the right thing, which the quote I provided does. The big question relates to God's character. That's the message to be given to the world. The "all things" Christ commanded relate specifically to this truth. Apart from this truth, the questions you are asking are, to my mind, incomplete and misleading.

MM: Are you assuming teaching people how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded, in accordance with Jesus’ commission, means divorcing having a faith-based relationship with God, an appreciation of His character and kingdom?

It could. It depends upon how it's done. If it's done with an emphasis on the revealing and confessing of sinful habits, as opposed to faith in Christ, and an understanding of the real issues of the Great Controversy, then I can see a problem. Of course, this wouldn't be "in accordance with Jesus' commission," so it would be more accurate for me to say that a person *thinking* they were teaching people how to obey and observer everything Jesus commanded could in actuality being acting in a way which would serve to break down a faith-based relationship with God, rather than build it up, if that person's emphasis was wrong.

Quote:
TE: Then how can you distinguish between being saved and being born again, since the description starts out with the question, "How, then, are we to be saved?"

MM: Because we are “saved” during the process of converting from darkness to light (if we do not refuse to confess certain sinful habits).

TE: The quote simply asks the question, "How are we to be saved." It's clearly her intent to answer that question by the rest of her answer. Given that she describes being born again, it's as clear as sunlight that being saved is synonomous with being born again.

MM: I agree. But people can be “saved” during the process of converting, before they are born again.

The question starts out, "How, then, is one saved?" She then explains how one is saved. To interpret what she writes as answering the question "How, then, is one born again" instead, where only a portion of her answer is addressing that question of being saved would be to do violence to her intent, which is clearly to answer the question of what one must do to be saved. Therefore being saved and being born again, to EGW's mind (at least in the context of this quote) are the same thing.

Quote:
TE: I understand that the sinner responds to the love of God revealed at the cross by repenting . . . and is reconciled to God. This reconciliation is more than the mere forgiveness of sins, but involves a new creation. The heart and mind is brought into harmony with God. What brings about this change is faith in God; faith in His promises, faith in His character, faith in Christ.

MM: I agree. But you also believe it involves God waiting to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is right.

TE: I've never said this. You keep wanting to put my way of thinking of things according to how you think of things. But I don't think of things that way! I've never said that conversion involves God's waiting to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is right. Conversion involves God's revealing Christ to us, and our need for Him. That's what I've said. It doesn't involve God's not doing something.

MM: Do you agree with me, then, that God reveals to people, in light of the cross, all of their sinful habits during the process of conversion, before they are born again? Or, do you believe God waits to reveal to them certain sinful habits until the time is right?

You don't even believe God reveals "all of their sinful habits" because you except, at times anyway, smoking and polygamy, and I assume also drinking (if Luther was saved).

Quote:
MM: The quote you posted disallows this view. I carefully pointed this out in the section you skipped over.

TE: I don't know what you're talking about here.

MM: Here is the part you skipped over without comment:

Quote:
DA 175, 176
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.(DA 175, 176)

TE: The above describes the process of being born again, doesn't it?

MM: Yes, I believe it does.

TE: Then how can you distinguish between being saved and being born again, since the description starts out with the question, "How, then, are we to be saved?"

Here is what it says:

1. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself.

MM: At this point in the process people are not converted or born again yet. Do you agree?

2. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour.

MM: They repent of, in light of the cross, their sins (we do not agree on which sinful habits God waits to reveal until after they are born again), but they’re still not yet converted or born again. Do you agree?

3. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.

MM: The word “then” indicates a before and after sequence. I believe it pinpoints the precise moment they experience the miracle of conversion and rebirth. Do you agree?

4. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.

MM: The phrase "are brought into obedience” is present tense. It is saying the "thoughts and desires" are brought into obedience to the will of God the moment they are born again. It does not mean they are gradually brought into obedience over a long period of time. I’m fairly sure you do not agree with this insight. Am I right?

5. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself.

MM: While abiding in Jesus they are empowered to subdue, that is, kept from resurfacing, “all” (not some) of their former sinful habits the moment they are converted and reborn. Again, I doubt you agree. Am I right?

6. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God."

MM: The word “then” in this sentence reiterates the before and after sequence pinpointed in the above mentioned sentence. It describes them delighting in doing the will of God (present tense) as outlined in the law. It does not portray them looking forward to the day (future tense) when they will be able to do it. I’m sure you disagree. Am I right?

TE: I'm not comfortable trying to nit-pick too finely each step along the way(I assume you're aware that we have counsel not to do this.), which is why I'm not responding to the points individually.

MM: The quote you are referring to does not include understanding what God has revealed to us in the Bible or the SOP about the plan of salvation.

TE: I think it does, if by "understanding" you mean "pick apart with a fine-toothed comb." The process of our perceving our need for Christ and reaching out to Him, or, perhaps more accurately, responding to His love is interwoven. You can't say with such great distinction, I don't believe, at this point the person still isn't converted. Now, poof!, he is. If you can find the quote, please post it.

MM: “By their fruits ye shall know them.” We do not have to “judge” people to “discern” they are not obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded. It is true, though, that just because people appear to be in harmony with the law of God does not necessarily mean they are. It is not for us to judge motive.

However, the Bible and the SOP clearly define and describe the steps to Christ. We can know and experience these steps perfectly, unto the honor and glory of God our Father. Ignorance is not bliss; it cannot set us free from our sinful habits, it cannot make us like Jesus.

I don't know if you're asking something in this last part, or looking for a comment, or what. I can say briefly that I see things according to how Waggoner described things, which I see as the same as Ellen White described things. Victory over sin comes as a result of living by faith. "The just shall live by faith." We overcome sin in the same way we are justified -- by faith.

1. Do you agree no one will be translated alive if they are ignorant of the truth? Will anyone slip past probation ignorant of the 3AMs and be caught up to meet Jesus in the air?

TV: Doesnt this question lose some of its 'adventist' edge if instead of 3AM, you where to write:
1,fear the Judge, worship the Creator, GOD
2,counterfit religion is fallen
3,anyone who worships the beast will burn

MM: Thomas, doesn't your question assume churches, other than the SDA church, is teaching the truth about Revelation 14:6-12? Do you know of any such churches?

Well percieved for you Mike. I wouldnt be suprised to find out, if this particular truth was preached about the same frequency in non-SDA churches as it is in SDA churches.

1. Do you agree no one will be translated alive if they are ignorant of the truth? Will anyone slip past probation ignorant of the 3AMs and be caught up to meet Jesus in the air?

TE: I understand the 3AMs as having to do with the Gospel, and in particular, God's character, as the COL quote I provided points out. But, with this caveat of a likely difference in emphasis, I agree your view (i.e. answer to your questions is "no" to both.)

MM: I also believe the 3AMs have to do with the gospel and the character of God. It is difficult, though, to overlook the emphasis prophecy places on the Sabbath-Sunday crisis. It is also difficult to overlook the condemnation of non-SDA churches and the desperate call to come out of them.


TE: I'm constantly amazed at your ability to come to conclusions like this. I don't understand how you read things. It's really odd. "must nurture a sense of guilt to avoid being guilty"? What an idea! I doubt anyone in all history has suggested such a thing. I certainly haven't.

MM: Okay, what, then, did you mean when you wrote – “There is not time in or lives where we have ‘zero sense of guilt.’” I assumed you meant, There is no time in our lives where we have a zero sense of guilt. How are you using the phrse “zero sense of guilt”?



TE: This sounds like the argument with Calvinists involving the meaning of the word "all." That is, it says "all the world would be taxed," but it's only a small portion of the world that was taxed. The word "every," like any word, needs to be taken in context. You must have some totally different idea about what she's talking about. I'm sure 99 out of a hundred people, more likely closer to 100 out of 100 on the average, would understand she's talking about the experience of a person being saved, not the experience of preparing for translation, which seems to be what you are talking about. It's true every sin must be brought to mind in order to be translated, but not to be born again. To enter heaven, whether by death or translation, one must be born again. She's not talking about an experience, in SC 29, that a non-SDA cannot have.

MM: You seem to think 99 out of 100 people believe they are saved with certain of their sinful habits in tact, that is, unrevealed, unconfessed, and uncrucified. But you also seem to believe they cannot be translated alive in such a state. Do you have inspired quotes to substantiate your views?

TE: God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God!

MM: This doesn’t make sense to me. Are you saying the reason people retain certain of their sinful habits after they are supposedly born again is because they refuse to receive the truth, and that in spite of their rejection of the truth they are living in a saved state?

DA 489
Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have been in error, but from the fact that we have neglected heaven-sent opportunities for learning what is truth. {DA 489.5}


TE: This isn't what I said. You previously disagreed with something I said. I asked for clarification about what it was that I said that you disagreed with. I asked you specific questions above regarding that. What specifically about I wrote did you disagree with? Is it with the statement that SC is dealing specifically with SDA's? Or something else?

MM: You seem to believe the SC 29 quote excludes people knowing about the commandment to keep the seventh-day Sabbath holy, and that it teaches such people are born again and saved. I disagree. I believe the quote is referring to people who have learned everything Jesus commanded us to obey and observe.

Again, here is it what she said about the law and character of God: “The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.” (SC 29)

Here is what she wrote about making void the law of God. “The world is in copartnership with the professed Christian churches in making void the law of Jehovah. God's law is set aside, it is trampled underfoot; and from all the loyal people of God, the prayer will ascend to heaven, "It is time, for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law" (3SM 424) It concerns the Sabbath.

“Because the law of the Lord is perfect, and therefore changeless, it is impossible for sinful men, in themselves, to meet the standard of its requirement. This was why Jesus came as our Redeemer. It was His mission, by making men partakers of the divine nature, to bring them into harmony with the principles of the law of heaven. When we forsake our sins and receive Christ as our Saviour, the law is exalted. The apostle Paul asks, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31. (MB 50)

You would have us believe that such inspired insights prove people complete the process of conversion before they know anything breaking the law of God. “When we forsake our sins and receive Christ as our Saviour, the law is exalted.” How can you expect me to believe that breaking the Sabbath commandment is overlooked by God in the SC 29 quote?

TE: Thank you. So "justification by faith," "saved," and "converted" are three different things. "Converted" is the same as "born again." I have this right, don't I? (you don't need to redescribe each of the terms, unless I'm wrong)

MM: Yes, people experience the miracle of rebirth the instant they complete the process of converting from darkness to light.

TE: So you agree it would be petty of me to make you confess every wrong thing you've thought about me, or said in private conversations, etc. during the period you were mad at me? Isn't my seeing that you are truly contrite enough? Isn't this the message of the Prodigal Son? Before the son could rehearse his speech, the father had already forgiven him. In fact, before he evenn saw his son, he had already forgiven him.

MM: You seem to be implying that God doesn’t care if we repent of all the times we have misrepresented Him, that He forgives us even before we repent. Who, then, can be lost? If everyone is forgiven, doesn’t that mean everyone is saved?


TE: I'm not sure what you're saying. 1 Cor. 13:5 clearly says that love (agape, and recall from John that God is agape) keeps no record of wrongs. You can't dispute that, because that's what it says. When you write, "it is also written ..." are you trying to make the point that 1 Cor. 13:5 is incorrect? I can't see where what you wrote addressed 1 Cor. 13:5 in any way. It must mean something.

MM: I believe you are misapplying verse 5. Here is how it reads, “Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil.” It says nothing about whether or not God keeps a record of the sins people have committed. That He does is clear. That’s partly what the investigative judgment is all about.

GC 481, 482
There is a record also of the sins of men. "For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Says the Saviour: "By thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Ecclesiastes 12:14; Matthew 12:36, 37. The secret purposes and motives appear in the unerring register; for God "will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts." I Corinthians 4:5. "Behold, it is written before Me, . . . your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord." Isaiah 65:6, 7. {GC 481.2}

Every man's work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel. {GC 482.1}

MM: So, yes, God does have a record or knowledge of our sinful habits He wants to save us from, so that He can empower us to live in harmony with His will and way, so we can be like Jesus.

How can God make “us right with Him” without setting us free from the sinful habits that make us unlike Jesus?

TV: Well percieved for you Mike. \:\) I wouldnt be suprised to find out, if this particular truth was preached about the same frequency in non-SDA churches as it is in SDA churches.

MM: Thomas, is this idea taught by the SDA church? Is it found anywhere in the SOP? Is it supported in the book The Great Controversy?

TE: You believe you have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted, correct?

MM: As you know, the way the Remnant Church enumerates her mission and message is not important. At any rate, yes, people complete the process of converting from darkness to light when they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded.

TE: I've never said that conversion involves God's waiting to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is right. Conversion involves God's revealing Christ to us, and our need for Him. That's what I've said. It doesn't involve God's not doing something.

MM: Do you agree with me, then, that God reveals to people, in light of the cross, all of their sinful habits during the process of conversion, before they are born again? Or, do you believe God waits to reveal to them certain sinful habits until the time is right?

TE: You don't even believe God reveals "all of their sinful habits" because you except, at times anyway, smoking and polygamy, and I assume also drinking (if Luther was saved).

MM: Please answer the question. I’ll rephrase it - Do you believe God waits until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits until the time is right? If so, why?

TE: I don't know if you're asking something in this last part, or looking for a comment, or what.

MM: I asked you the following questions regarding the quote you posted to prove Sister White taught people are born again with certain of their sinful habits unrevealed, unconfessed, and uncrucified. You have not yet answered them.

TE: You believe you have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted, correct?

MM: As you know, the way the Remnant Church enumerates her mission and message is not important. At any rate, yes, people complete the process of converting from darkness to light when they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded.

The basic point is that no one who is not an SDA is converted (which isn't to say being an SDA is sufficient; but it is necessary).

TE: I've never said that conversion involves God's waiting to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is right. Conversion involves God's revealing Christ to us, and our need for Him. That's what I've said. It doesn't involve God's not doing something.

MM: Do you agree with me, then, that God reveals to people, in light of the cross, all of their sinful habits during the process of conversion, before they are born again? Or, do you believe God waits to reveal to them certain sinful habits until the time is right?

I believe the way Waggoner expressed it is accurate, and that this agrees with what Sister White wrote. I don't agree with your way of phrasing the question, which implies God is somehow at fault. God reveals truth to us as fast as we are able and willing to receive it. We do not need all truth to be converted. We need to know the truth the publican knew, that God is merciful to sinners.

TE: You don't even believe God reveals "all of their sinful habits" because you except, at times anyway, smoking and polygamy, and I assume also drinking (if Luther was saved).

MM: Please answer the question. I’ll rephrase it - Do you believe God waits until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits until the time is right? If so, why?

Unless you don't believe Luther was converted, you don't believe it yourself. Why?

TE: I don't know if you're asking something in this last part, or looking for a comment, or what.

MM: I asked you the following questions regarding the quote you posted to prove Sister White taught people are born again with certain of their sinful habits unrevealed, unconfessed, and uncrucified. You have not yet answered them.

I addressed these. The basic difference in our position is that you have a different understanding of what "conversion" means. You see it as having to do with being in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs, or, to put it in other terms, to be in harmony with the teachings of the remnant church. I see it as being in harmony with Christ. I do not believe a person needs to be an SDA to be converted.

Quote:
Here is what DA 175, 176 says:

1. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself.

MM: At this point in the process people are not converted or born again yet. Do you agree?

2. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour.

MM: They repent of, in light of the cross, their sins (we do not agree on which sinful habits God waits to reveal until after they are born again), but they’re still not yet converted or born again. Do you agree?

3. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.

MM: The word “then” indicates a before and after sequence. I believe it pinpoints the precise moment they experience the miracle of conversion and rebirth. Do you agree?

4. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.

MM: The phrase "are brought into obedience” is present tense. It is saying the "thoughts and desires" are brought into obedience to the will of God the moment they are born again. It does not mean they are gradually brought into obedience over a long period of time. I’m fairly sure you do not agree with this insight. Am I right?

5. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself.

MM: While abiding in Jesus they are empowered to subdue, that is, kept from resurfacing, “all” (not some) of their former sinful habits the moment they are converted and reborn. Again, I doubt you agree. Am I right?

6. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God."

MM: The word “then” in this sentence reiterates the before and after sequence pinpointed in the above mentioned sentence. It describes them delighting in doing the will of God (present tense) as outlined in the law. It does not portray them looking forward to the day (future tense) when they will be able to do it. I’m sure you disagree. Am I right?

“By their fruits ye shall know them.” We do not have to “judge” people to “discern” they are not obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded. It is true, though, that just because people appear to be in harmony with the law of God it does not necessarily mean they are. It is not for us to judge motive.

However, the Bible and the SOP clearly define and describe the steps to Christ. We can know and experience these steps perfectly, unto the honor and glory of God our Father. Ignorance is not bliss; it cannot set us free from our sinful habits, it cannot make us like Jesus.

By beholding we become changed. We become like Jesus Christ by knowing Him, and seeing Him as He is. "When He comes, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

I have yet to see a solid case made from the bible that this is indeed a crisis centering around Sabbath-Sunday... And that the condemnation of false worship is a condemnation of non-SDA churches...
...

Thomas

As a good salesman, the SDA church does not tell that the "competition" may also be selling an acceptable merchandise. So while I havent heard this taught by the SDA church, (I cant say about the entire volume of Ellens writings as I havent read it) and havent read it in the great controversy, I non the less believe that God would confirm this.

The issue isn't SDA vs. non-SDA but true God vs. false God. Many SDA's will be deceived, and many non-SDA's will join God's side during the loud cry. His sheep will hear His voice.

1. Do you agree no one will be translated alive if they are ignorant of the truth? Will anyone slip past probation ignorant of the 3AMs and be caught up to meet Jesus in the air?

TE: I understand the 3AMs as having to do with the Gospel, and in particular, God's character, as the COL quote I provided points out. But, with this caveat of a likely difference in emphasis, I agree your view (i.e. answer to your questions is "no" to both.)

MM: I also believe the 3AMs have to do with the gospel and the character of God. It is difficult, though, to overlook the emphasis prophecy places on the Sabbath-Sunday crisis. It is also difficult to overlook the condemnation of non-SDA churches and the desperate call to come out of them.


TE: I'm constantly amazed at your ability to come to conclusions like this. I don't understand how you read things. It's really odd. "must nurture a sense of guilt to avoid being guilty"? What an idea! I doubt anyone in all history has suggested such a thing. I certainly haven't.

MM: Okay, what, then, did you mean when you wrote – “There is not time in or lives where we have ‘zero sense of guilt.’” I assumed you meant, There is no time in our lives where we have a zero sense of guilt. How are you using the phrse “zero sense of guilt”?



TE: This sounds like the argument with Calvinists involving the meaning of the word "all." That is, it says "all the world would be taxed," but it's only a small portion of the world that was taxed. The word "every," like any word, needs to be taken in context. You must have some totally different idea about what she's talking about. I'm sure 99 out of a hundred people, more likely closer to 100 out of 100 on the average, would understand she's talking about the experience of a person being saved, not the experience of preparing for translation, which seems to be what you are talking about. It's true every sin must be brought to mind in order to be translated, but not to be born again. To enter heaven, whether by death or translation, one must be born again. She's not talking about an experience, in SC 29, that a non-SDA cannot have.

MM: You seem to think 99 out of 100 people believe they are saved with certain of their sinful habits in tact, that is, unrevealed, unconfessed, and uncrucified. But you also seem to believe they cannot be translated alive in such a state. Do you have inspired quotes to substantiate your views?

TE: God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God!

MM: This doesn’t make sense to me. Are you saying the reason people retain certain of their sinful habits after they are supposedly born again is because they refuse to receive the truth, and that in spite of their rejection of the truth they are living in a saved state?

DA 489
Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have been in error, but from the fact that we have neglected heaven-sent opportunities for learning what is truth. {DA 489.5}


TE: This isn't what I said. You previously disagreed with something I said. I asked for clarification about what it was that I said that you disagreed with. I asked you specific questions above regarding that. What specifically about I wrote did you disagree with? Is it with the statement that SC is dealing specifically with SDA's? Or something else?

MM: You seem to believe the SC 29 quote excludes people knowing about the commandment to keep the seventh-day Sabbath holy, and that it teaches such people are born again and saved. I disagree. I believe the quote is referring to people who have learned everything Jesus commanded us to obey and observe.

Again, here is it what she said about the law and character of God: “The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.” (SC 29)

Here is what she wrote about making void the law of God. “The world is in copartnership with the professed Christian churches in making void the law of Jehovah. God's law is set aside, it is trampled underfoot; and from all the loyal people of God, the prayer will ascend to heaven, "It is time, for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law" (3SM 424) It concerns the Sabbath.

“Because the law of the Lord is perfect, and therefore changeless, it is impossible for sinful men, in themselves, to meet the standard of its requirement. This was why Jesus came as our Redeemer. It was His mission, by making men partakers of the divine nature, to bring them into harmony with the principles of the law of heaven. When we forsake our sins and receive Christ as our Saviour, the law is exalted. The apostle Paul asks, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31. (MB 50)

You would have us believe that such inspired insights prove people complete the process of conversion before they know anything breaking the law of God. “When we forsake our sins and receive Christ as our Saviour, the law is exalted.” How can you expect me to believe that breaking the Sabbath commandment is overlooked by God in the SC 29 quote?

TE: Thank you. So "justification by faith," "saved," and "converted" are three different things. "Converted" is the same as "born again." I have this right, don't I? (you don't need to redescribe each of the terms, unless I'm wrong)

MM: Yes, people experience the miracle of rebirth the instant they complete the process of converting from darkness to light.

TE: So you agree it would be petty of me to make you confess every wrong thing you've thought about me, or said in private conversations, etc. during the period you were mad at me? Isn't my seeing that you are truly contrite enough? Isn't this the message of the Prodigal Son? Before the son could rehearse his speech, the father had already forgiven him. In fact, before he evenn saw his son, he had already forgiven him.

MM: You seem to be implying that God doesn’t care if we repent of all the times we have misrepresented Him, that He forgives us even before we repent. Who, then, can be lost? If everyone is forgiven, doesn’t that mean everyone is saved?


TE: I'm not sure what you're saying. 1 Cor. 13:5 clearly says that love (agape, and recall from John that God is agape) keeps no record of wrongs. You can't dispute that, because that's what it says. When you write, "it is also written ..." are you trying to make the point that 1 Cor. 13:5 is incorrect? I can't see where what you wrote addressed 1 Cor. 13:5 in any way. It must mean something.

MM: I believe you are misapplying verse 5. Here is how it reads, “Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil.” It says nothing about whether or not God keeps a record of the sins people have committed. That He does is clear. That’s partly what the investigative judgment is all about.

GC 481, 482
There is a record also of the sins of men. "For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Says the Saviour: "By thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Ecclesiastes 12:14; Matthew 12:36, 37. The secret purposes and motives appear in the unerring register; for God "will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts." I Corinthians 4:5. "Behold, it is written before Me, . . . your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord." Isaiah 65:6, 7. {GC 481.2}

Every man's work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel. {GC 482.1}

MM: So, yes, God does have a record or knowledge of our sinful habits He wants to save us from, so that He can empower us to live in harmony with His will and way, so we can be like Jesus.

How can God make “us right with Him” without setting us free from the sinful habits that make us unlike Jesus?

Thomas, I understand you believe non-SDA churches are also teaching the truth regarding Revelation 14:6-12, what is sometimes referred to as the 3AMs. Please do me a favor and summarize them. Thank you. I have always believed the SDA church interpretation is correct. So, I would like to know what you believe is the truth about them.

TE: The basic point is that no one who is not an SDA is converted (which isn't to say being an SDA is sufficient; but it is necessary).

MM: They may be in the process of converting from darkness to light, but they cannot complete it until they learn how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded, which, yes, means they must be living in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant Church.

TE: I believe the way Waggoner expressed it is accurate, and that this agrees with what Sister White wrote. I don't agree with your way of phrasing the question, which implies God is somehow at fault. God reveals truth to us as fast as we are able and willing to receive it. We do not need all truth to be converted. We need to know the truth the publican knew, that God is merciful to sinners.

MM: “We do not need all truth to be converted.” I realize this is what you believe, but you have yet to support it with Bible and SOP passages. The poor publican you mentioned did not complete the process of conversion; instead, he embarked upon it on that day. “His heart was open for the Spirit of God to do its gracious work and set him free from the power of sin.” Again, only the truth can set us free; not half of it.

“The poor publican who prayed, ‘God be merciful to me a sinner’ (Luke 18:13), regarded himself as a very wicked man, and others looked upon him in the same light; but he felt his need, and with his burden of guilt and shame he came before God, asking for His mercy. His heart was open for the Spirit of God to do its gracious work and set him free from the power of sin.” (SC 30, 31)

TE: “Do you believe God waits until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits until the time is right? If so, why?” Unless you don't believe Luther was converted, you don't believe it yourself. Why?

MM: Luther was in the process of converting from darkness to light, but he did not complete it before he died. Being “converted” means you have learned how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Again, Do you believe God waits until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits?

TE: I addressed these. The basic difference in our position is that you have a different understanding of what "conversion" means. You see it as having to do with being in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs, or, to put it in other terms, to be in harmony with the teachings of the remnant church. I see it as being in harmony with Christ. I do not believe a person needs to be an SDA to be converted.

MM: “I addressed these.” You posted DA 175, 176 to prove Sister White teaches people are converted before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. But I believe it teaches what I have been advocating. You say you have addressed it already but in reality you said you saw no reason to because you believe it was being too picky. Why, then, did you post it? It clearly does not prove your point.

“I see [converted] as being in harmony with Christ.” So do I. The difference between you and I is that you believe people complete the process of converting from darkness to light before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Jesus demonstrated what it means to be in harmony with Him. “As Christians, we are to manifest to the world the character of Christ in all the affairs of life. To be a Christian means to act in Christ's stead, to represent Christ.” (SW 38)

“I do not believe a person needs to be an SDA to be converted.” And I do not believe people have to be an SDA to be saved. But to complete the process of converting from darkness to light they must live in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant Church.

TE: By beholding we become changed. We become like Jesus Christ by knowing Him, and seeing Him as He is. "When He comes, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

MM: I agree. But you seem to believe that by beholding Christ converted people gradually become less and less sinful. Whereas I believe it means they become more and more mature in the fruits of the Spirit. People are born again like Jesus, they have learned how to live in harmony with Him, they obey and observe everything He commanded.

And whats wrong with this summary? http://www.maritime-sda-online.org/forum...rt=12#Post86233

TE: The basic point is that no one who is not an SDA is converted (which isn't to say being an SDA is sufficient; but it is necessary).

MM: They may be in the process of converting from darkness to light, but they cannot complete it until they learn how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded, which, yes, means they must be living in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant Church.

The Light is a person, not a bunch of doctrines. Anyone who knows Christ has passed from darkness to light, as soon as they make the decision to respond to that knocking on the heart. The protracted process which Ellen White speaks of is the process that leads up to the person making the decision to respond to that knocking. It may appear to be an all-of-the-sudden decision, but in reality the Spirit has been at work for that person's whole life.

How would you use your ideas to interpret conversion before 1844? Was no one converted? (or should some other date besides 1844 be used?)

TE: I believe the way Waggoner expressed it is accurate, and that this agrees with what Sister White wrote. I don't agree with your way of phrasing the question, which implies God is somehow at fault. God reveals truth to us as fast as we are able and willing to receive it. We do not need all truth to be converted. We need to know the truth the publican knew, that God is merciful to sinners.

MM: “We do not need all truth to be converted.” I realize this is what you believe, but you have yet to support it with Bible and SOP passages.

No one has all truth but God. Does this need to be substantiated by the Bible and SOP passages?

The poor publican you mentioned did not complete the process of conversion; instead, he embarked upon it on that day. “His heart was open for the Spirit of God to do its gracious work and set him free from the power of sin.” Again, only the truth can set us free; not half of it.

“The poor publican who prayed, ‘God be merciful to me a sinner’ (Luke 18:13), regarded himself as a very wicked man, and others looked upon him in the same light; but he felt his need, and with his burden of guilt and shame he came before God, asking for His mercy. His heart was open for the Spirit of God to do its gracious work and set him free from the power of sin.” (SC 30, 31)

The poor publican was not converted? Was he justified? By the way, on Pentecost 3,000 were converted in a single day. How do you explain that? This makes sense according to the normal way of understanding conversion as accepting Christ as one's Savior, but how does it make sense with your idea? How could everything that Jesus taught have been taught in a single day?

Zaccheus is another example. He was converted in a single day.

If you spend just a little time looking at EGW's writings, you can see that she uses the terms "converted" and "saved" interchangeably. Here's an example:







Here's an example which shows that "born again" is used equivalently to "saved". Interestingly, it also involves Nicodemus (like the example from a previous post)



Notice it points out that "rigid precision in obeying the law" is not the way, but each must "experience a new birth through Jesus Christ" as what? "the only condition upon which he could be saved." To be saved, one must be born again. Yet you say one can be saved without being born again.

TE: “Do you believe God waits until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits until the time is right? If so, why?” Unless you don't believe Luther was converted, you don't believe it yourself. Why?

MM: Luther was in the process of converting from darkness to light, but he did not complete it before he died. Being “converted” means you have learned how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Again, Do you believe God waits until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits?

So Luther was not converted?! Really? Regarding your question, I've addressed that many times now. My answer's not going to change.

TE: I addressed these. The basic difference in our position is that you have a different understanding of what "conversion" means. You see it as having to do with being in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs, or, to put it in other terms, to be in harmony with the teachings of the remnant church. I see it as being in harmony with Christ. I do not believe a person needs to be an SDA to be converted.

MM: “I addressed these.” You posted DA 175, 176 to prove Sister White teaches people are converted before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. But I believe it teaches what I have been advocating. You say you have addressed it already but in reality you said you saw no reason to because you believe it was being too picky.

As I stated, I don't believe you can analyze things as minutely as you were trying to do. As I stated, we have counsel against doing this very thing, and for good reason. That's not the way conversion works.

Why, then, did you post it? It clearly does not prove your point.

It did prove my point. She asked "How, then, are we to be saved" and followed that by explaining the process of being born again, which exactly proves my point. I've posted several other quotes this post which also prove it. She uses "saved" interchangeably with "justified," "born again," "converted," just like most people do.

“I see [converted] as being in harmony with Christ.” So do I. The difference between you and I is that you believe people complete the process of converting from darkness to light before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded.

People like Luther. You're right. That's a difference.

Jesus demonstrated what it means to be in harmony with Him. “As Christians, we are to manifest to the world the character of Christ in all the affairs of life. To be a Christian means to act in Christ's stead, to represent Christ.” (SW 38)

“I do not believe a person needs to be an SDA to be converted.” And I do not believe people have to be an SDA to be saved.

But they do in order to be converted, right? So there were no converted persons before 1844, (or 1863?) after the Apostles' day. In order to be converted, you have to be born at the right time. Accepting Christ isn't enough. Living up to all the light you have is not enough.

If you have to live up to "all truth," how can you ever know you've arrived? That's tantamount to saying, "I have all truth." If you believe that, how could you possible learn anything from anyone?


But to complete the process of converting from darkness to light they must live in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant Church.

Regardless of when they were born, or of what they know.

TE: By beholding we become changed. We become like Jesus Christ by knowing Him, and seeing Him as He is. "When He comes, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

MM: I agree. But you seem to believe that by beholding Christ converted people gradually become less and less sinful.

This is your idea (of what I seem to believe). I've never said this.

Whereas I believe it means they become more and more mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

This is my idea. I have said this.

People are born again like Jesus, they have learned how to live in harmony with Him,

true

they obey and observe everything He commanded.

not if this means "must be a member of the SDA church." This is not Scriptural, and Ellen White never claimed this (that one must be an SDA to be converted, or born again)

MM: Thomas, I understand you believe non-SDA churches are also teaching the truth regarding Revelation 14:6-12, what is sometimes referred to as the 3AMs. Please do me a favor and summarize them. Thank you. I have always believed the SDA church interpretation is correct. So, I would like to know what you believe is the truth about them.

TV: And whats wrong with this summary?


MM: Thank you. Besides the first one, though, I still don't know what you believe the other two mean, except that you do not agree with the SDA interpretation.

1. Why do you believe Babylon symbolizes counterfeit religion?

2. Was there ever a time when counterfeit religion was not fallen?

3. What is counterfeit religion?

4. Do you have any examples in mind?

5. What is the beast?

6. What constitutes worshiping the beast?

7. What does it mean to burn in the presence of the Lamb for ever and ever?

8. Who are the 144,000?

9. What is the seal of God?

10. Does God wait until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits?

Tom, I am reposting the following questions and comments from post number 86360 (my first post on the previous page). Please address them when you have time. They are important to me. Thank you.

TE: The Light is a person, not a bunch of doctrines. Anyone who knows Christ has passed from darkness to light, as soon as they make the decision to respond to that knocking on the heart.

MM: Are you saying the “light” in the Bible has nothing to do with the truths that set us free? That people are no longer in darkness irrespective of their ignorance of everything Jesus commanded?

TE: The protracted process which Ellen White speaks of is the process that leads up to the person making the decision to respond to that knocking. It may appear to be an all-of-the-sudden decision, but in reality the Spirit has been at work for that person's whole life.

MM: Are you saying the Holy Spirit will enter the heart before people begin partaking of the divine nature? That the Holy Spirit will occupy a divided throne?

TE: How would you use your ideas to interpret conversion before 1844? Was no one converted? (or should some other date besides 1844 be used?)

MM: No one can complete the process of converting from not knowing everything Jesus commanded to obeying everything He commanded before they learn how to obey everything He commanded. Do you agree?

TE: “‘We do not need all truth to be converted.’ I realize this is what you believe, but you have yet to support it with Bible and SOP passages.” No one has all truth but God. Does this need to be substantiated by the Bible and SOP passages?

MM: Tom, surely you must understand that I am referring to the truths necessary to obey everything Jesus commanded, the truths necessary to be translated alive. Are you saying we do not need these truths to convert to obeying everything Jesus commanded?

TE: The poor publican was not converted? Was he justified?

MM: The poor publican embarked upon the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded, but he did not complete it on the day he prayed at the temple. He was not justified in the sense of justification by faith. The word “justified” in this context means in comparison to the Pharisee his prayer experience was acceptable to God.

TE: By the way, on Pentecost 3,000 were converted in a single day. How do you explain that? This makes sense according to the normal way of understanding conversion as accepting Christ as one's Savior, but how does it make sense with your idea? How could everything that Jesus taught have been taught in a single day? Zaccheus is another example. He was converted in a single day.

MM: As I have explained elsewhere, the people who were converted as a result of Jesus’ ministry were well aware of everything He commanded.

TE: If you spend just a little time looking at EGW's writings, you can see that she uses the terms "converted" and "saved" interchangeably. Here's an example:

MM: I thought we agreed on this point?

TE: Here's an example which shows that "born again" is used equivalently to "saved". Interestingly, it also involves Nicodemus (like the example from a previous post) … Notice it points out that "rigid precision in obeying the law" is not the way, but each must "experience a new birth through Jesus Christ" as what? "the only condition upon which he could be saved." To be saved, one must be born again. Yet you say one can be saved without being born again.

MM: Again, we agree on this point.

TE: So Luther was not converted?! Really?

MM: Luther did not complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?

TE: Regarding your question, I've addressed that many times now. My answer's not going to change. (“God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God!” [86300])

MM: Okay. Thank you. Your answer to the title of this thread is – Yes, God does wait until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits. And the reason He waits is because they are unwilling to receive the truths that would require them to confess and forsake certain of their sinful habits.

TE: “‘I do not believe a person needs to be an SDA to be converted.’ And I do not believe people have to be an SDA to be saved.” But they do in order to be converted, right? So there were no converted persons before 1844, (or 1863?) after the Apostles' day. In order to be converted, you have to be born at the right time. Accepting Christ isn't enough. Living up to all the light you have is not enough.

MM: Again, being “saved” and completing the process of “converting” to obeying everything Jesus commanded do not always occur simultaneously. Living up to all the light people believe is right and true is not always the same thing as learning how to obey everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?

TE: “But to complete the process of converting from darkness to light they must live in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant Church.” Regardless of when they were born, or of what they know.

MM: What? Are you saying people we were living in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant church during the Dark Ages, before Jesus raised up the SDA church to restore and repair the truths that were all but lost during the Dark Ages?

TE: “But you seem to believe that by beholding Christ converted people gradually become less and less sinful.” This is your idea (of what I seem to believe). I've never said this.

MM: Again, here is what you said about it: “God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God!”

TE: “Whereas I believe it means they become more and more mature in the fruits of the Spirit.” This is my idea. I have said this.

MM: Really? Are you saying we totally agree on what it means to mature in the fruits of the Spirit after people are born again?

TE: “People are born again like Jesus, they have learned how to live in harmony with Him,” true

MM: Really? Are you saying people are born again like Jesus? That they are living in harmony with His will, with everything he commanded?

TE: “they obey and observe everything He commanded.” not if this means "must be a member of the SDA church." This is not Scriptural, and Ellen White never claimed this (that one must be an SDA to be converted, or born again)

MM: Really? Are you saying non-SDAs are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded? That they have converted to obeying everything He commanded?

TE: The Light is a person, not a bunch of doctrines. Anyone who knows Christ has passed from darkness to light, as soon as they make the decision to respond to that knocking on the heart.

MM: Are you saying the “light” in the Bible has nothing to do with the truths that set us free?

No.

That people are no longer in darkness irrespective of their ignorance of everything Jesus commanded?

No. I'm saying what I said. Anyone who knows Christ has passed from darkness to light. This is Biblical.

TE: The protracted process which Ellen White speaks of is the process that leads up to the person making the decision to respond to that knocking. It may appear to be an all-of-the-sudden decision, but in reality the Spirit has been at work for that person's whole life.

MM: Are you saying the Holy Spirit will enter the heart before people begin partaking of the divine nature?

The Holy Spirit entering the heart is a metaphor. The heart is a muscle which pumps blood. This isn't literal. To say the Holy Spirit will enter the heart is to speak of the communion of the Spirit with the mind of the believer. Before a person is a believer, the communion of a believer with the Spirit is not possible.

That the Holy Spirit will occupy a divided throne?

The throne isn't divided; the person has invited Christ to sit upon it. (remember, he accepted Christ as His personal Savior.)

TE: How would you use your ideas to interpret conversion before 1844? Was no one converted? (or should some other date besides 1844 be used?)

MM: No one can complete the process of converting from not knowing everything Jesus commanded to obeying everything He commanded before they learn how to obey everything He commanded. Do you agree?

I believe a person is converted, as I've said very many times now, when (s)he accepts Christ.

TE: “‘We do not need all truth to be converted.’ I realize this is what you believe, but you have yet to support it with Bible and SOP passages.” No one has all truth but God. Does this need to be substantiated by the Bible and SOP passages?

MM: Tom, surely you must understand that I am referring to the truths necessary to obey everything Jesus commanded, the truths necessary to be translated alive.

Conversion does not have to do with being translated alive. You're the only one I've ever met that has this idea. Conversion has to do with being right with God, being justified, being saved.

Are you saying we do not need these truths to convert to obeying everything Jesus commanded?

I'm saying what I said. We are not dependent upon any more truth to be converted than the publican was.

TE: The poor publican was not converted? Was he justified?

MM: The poor publican embarked upon the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded, but he did not complete it on the day he prayed at the temple. He was not justified in the sense of justification by faith. The word “justified” in this context means in comparison to the Pharisee his prayer experience was acceptable to God.

The publican was not justified? nor converted? MM, justification by faith and pardon are one and the same. When the publican asked for pardon, he received it, as did David, which Paul points out in Romans 4. Do you believe he wasn't forgiven?

TE: By the way, on Pentecost 3,000 were converted in a single day. How do you explain that? This makes sense according to the normal way of understanding conversion as accepting Christ as one's Savior, but how does it make sense with your idea? How could everything that Jesus taught have been taught in a single day? Zaccheus is another example. He was converted in a single day.

MM: As I have explained elsewhere, the people who were converted as a result of Jesus’ ministry were well aware of everything He commanded.

The people at Pentecost weren't aware of everything Jesus taught. How could they have been? There were many Gentiles there. Acts demonstrates that the "many things" had yet to be determined. The were converted as a result of believing Peter's preaching, which is recorded in Acts. It was the Gospel of Christ crucified that led to their being converted.

TE: If you spend just a little time looking at EGW's writings, you can see that she uses the terms "converted" and "saved" interchangeably. Here's an example:

MM: I thought we agreed on this point?

TE: Here's an example which shows that "born again" is used equivalently to "saved". Interestingly, it also involves Nicodemus (like the example from a previous post) … Notice it points out that "rigid precision in obeying the law" is not the way, but each must "experience a new birth through Jesus Christ" as what? "the only condition upon which he could be saved." To be saved, one must be born again. Yet you say one can be saved without being born again.

MM: Again, we agree on this point.

No, you stated before that "saved" was not "born again." "Born again" you said was equivalent to "converted," and has to do with knowing the 28 fundamenal beliefs. "Saved" just has to do with living up to the light you have. So an non-SDA can be saved, but not converted. This is what you said. I can produce your statements if you wish.

TE: So Luther was not converted?! Really?

MM: Luther did not complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?

I believe Luther was converted, saved, born again, and justified by faith, all of which are describing the same thing.

TE: Regarding your question, I've addressed that many times now. My answer's not going to change. (“God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God!” [86300])

MM: Okay. Thank you. Your answer to the title of this thread is – Yes, God does wait until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits. And the reason He waits is because they are unwilling to receive the truths that would require them to confess and forsake certain of their sinful habits.

I wouldn't say that's not necessarily the reason. Why did Luther remain a beer drinker?

TE: “‘I do not believe a person needs to be an SDA to be converted.’ And I do not believe people have to be an SDA to be saved.” But they do in order to be converted, right? So there were no converted persons before 1844, (or 1863?) after the Apostles' day. In order to be converted, you have to be born at the right time. Accepting Christ isn't enough. Living up to all the light you have is not enough.

MM: Again, being “saved” and completing the process of “converting” to obeying everything Jesus commanded do not always occur simultaneously.

Being "saved" and being "converted" are the same thing, as the quotes by EGW demonstrate.

Living up to all the light people believe is right and true is not always the same thing as learning how to obey everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?

You are asking if not everyone has light on everything Christ taught? Yes, I agree with that. I also agree it's good to live up to the light you have.

TE: “But to complete the process of converting from darkness to light they must live in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant Church.” Regardless of when they were born, or of what they know.

MM: What? Are you saying people we were living in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant church during the Dark Ages, before Jesus raised up the SDA church to restore and repair the truths that were all but lost during the Dark Ages?

I'm quoting your position. You are saying that one needs to know the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted.

TE: “But you seem to believe that by beholding Christ converted people gradually become less and less sinful.” This is your idea (of what I seem to believe). I've never said this.

MM: Again, here is what you said about it: “God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God!”

Right! This is what I said.

TE: “Whereas I believe it means they become more and more mature in the fruits of the Spirit.” This is my idea. I have said this.

MM: Really? Are you saying we totally agree on what it means to mature in the fruits of the Spirit after people are born again?

Since we disagree as to what it means to be converted, and as to what the important issues are, I doubt we agree on what this means. But I agree that when one is born again, one begins to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

TE: “People are born again like Jesus, they have learned how to live in harmony with Him,” true

MM: Really? Are you saying people are born again like Jesus? That they are living in harmony with His will, with everything he commanded?

I'm saying what I wrote, but my words mean something different to me than they do to you. I won't repeat what you believe the words mean, because you already know, and I know what you mean by them. So I'll just clarify what they mean to me. They mean to be like Christ in character. They have begun a walk with Him. Like the new Christians in Acts, that people looked at, and mocked as "Christians," because they were followers of Christ.

TE: “they obey and observe everything He commanded.” not if this means "must be a member of the SDA church." This is not Scriptural, and Ellen White never claimed this (that one must be an SDA to be converted, or born again)

MM: Really? Are you saying non-SDAs are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded?

Moses was a non-SDA. Luther was a non-SDA. Peter was a non-SDA. William Miller was a non-SDA. Abraham was a non-SDA. To obey everything that God commands involves present truth. The light of one day is not the same as the light in another, and even in one day it's not always the case that everyone has equal access to that light.

That they have converted to obeying everything He commanded?

Tom

It seems your question concerning Luther was if he drunk beer or not. Why is that? Unless he was a drukard, and I believe we know he wasnt, why would this be a salvation issue in the first place?

These are some good questions. Made me realise how I still am building on second hand information. Babylon in revelation represents a power that stands against God while making merchants and rulers rich. From Rev 18:3 it seems reasonable to say that humans sell their soul to this entity, rulers for power and merchants for riches. And Gods people dwell in "it" until the call in 18:4. In this second look, I dont know why Babylon should be limited to counterfeit religion rather than to all things that achieve the above. Well spotted.

That which stands against God has been fallen since the day of the cross. However, it still to this day appears strong. There will be a day when it will be obvious to all that only God and those whom God keeps are in reality standing.

What is counterfeit religion? Uhm, a religion that has the apparence or the appeal of the true religion, without having Christ as its foundation. That could be anything from the Wicca coven to the Buddhist stupa to a Muslim mosque to probably include one or another SDA church where much form of godliness is to be found but none of its power.

The beast is someone who recieves worship, and as we know, only God is to recieve worship. Question, if (for the sake of this argument) you where to recieve and accept worship, would you then be an image of the beast?

Worshiping the beast is thus worship where God is not the object of the worship.

If the burning in the third angles message is literal, then it involves consumption in flames, if it is symbolical, then I dont know but I still dont doubt that it will be a most unpleasant experience for those who go into it.

The 144000 represent all of Gods people on earth during the times of struggle. As in before the time when final victory is declared and the war is officially over.

The "sealing of God" is another way of saying "baptism in Gods Spirit".

God reveals Himself, and sinfull habbits are taken care of by the fact that where light is, darkness is expelled.

I'm addressing MM's beliefs. I agree with what you wrote. It's just an example, because MM says no one is converted who doesn't follow the 28 fundamental beliefs. Luther drank beer, so he wasn't (according to MM's criteria) converted.

But the 28 mentions neither drinking nor beer...

Hey, Thomas, I tried to PM (send you a private message), but I couldn't. Maybe it doesn't like your umlat's, I don't know. Anyway, please PM me, so I can respond to you.


Thanks,

Tom

Really? Didn't know that.

On a closer look, it does mention "alcoholic beverages"...

Though for Luther, that is still a not clearcut as I believe beer in his day wouldnt be called an "alcoholic beverage" today...

You couldn't get drunk by drinking the beer of his day?

Here's something from Luther:



From correspondence between Luther and his wife, it is apparent that Luther had a wine cellar.

You could get drunk on it, if you keept on drinking a lot. As I heard it, 3 or 4 cans of todays sizes wouldnt get you intoxicated on that brew... But maybe 3 or four 4 gallons would...

Interesting. Well, there's the wine also. You could probably get drunk on that. Luther mentions the importance of self-control, so that implies you could get drunk.

When looking for the history of this at wikipedia, I saw a reference to Proverbs 31:6-7. If the SS-study ever gets that far before new topic in April, that will promise to be one interesting passage to debate.

-----
And another point I was trying to make earlier is also quoted here: here:

"In places and eras with poor public sanitation, such as Medieval Europe, consumption of alcoholic drinks (particularly weak or "small" beer) was one method of avoiding water-borne diseases such as cholera. "

For those who don't have Proverbs 31:6, 7 memorized:

TE: No. I'm saying what I said. Anyone who knows Christ has passed from darkness to light. This is Biblical.

MM: Even if they are ignorant of the truths that can set them free from their sinful habits?

TE: “That the Holy Spirit will occupy a divided throne?” The throne isn't divided; the person has invited Christ to sit upon it. (remember, he accepted Christ as His personal Savior.)

MM: Are you saying Jesus will occupy the throne of their heart before it is cleansed of sinful habits?

TE: “No one can complete the process of converting from not knowing everything Jesus commanded to obeying everything He commanded before they learn how to obey everything He commanded. Do you agree?” I believe a person is converted, as I've said very many times now, when (s)he accepts Christ.

MM: Okay, so you believe they accept Jesus irrespective of the truths that can set them free of their sinful habits.

TE: Conversion does not have to do with being translated alive. You're the only one I've ever met that has this idea. Conversion has to do with being right with God, being justified, being saved.

MM: But you believe “being right with God” has nothing to do with obeying everything Jesus commanded.

TE: The publican was not justified? nor converted? MM, justification by faith and pardon are one and the same. When the publican asked for pardon, he received it, as did David, which Paul points out in Romans 4. Do you believe he wasn't forgiven?

MM: Again, the publican embarked upon the process of conversion, he did not complete it on the day he prayed at the temple. He was saved in the sense he was living up to the light he believed is right and true. So was David.

TE: The people at Pentecost weren't aware of everything Jesus taught. How could they have been? There were many Gentiles there. Acts demonstrates that the "many things" had yet to be determined. The were converted as a result of believing Peter's preaching, which is recorded in Acts. It was the Gospel of Christ crucified that led to their being converted.

MM: Here is what Sister White wrote about it: “During His life on this earth He had sown the seed of truth and had watered it with His blood. The conversions that took place on the Day of Pentecost were the result of this sowing, the harvest of Christ's work, revealing the power of His teaching.” (AA 44)

TE: No, you stated before that "saved" was not "born again." "Born again" you said was equivalent to "converted," and has to do with knowing the 28 fundamenal beliefs. "Saved" just has to do with living up to the light you have. So an non-SDA can be saved, but not converted. This is what you said. I can produce your statements if you wish.

MM: Born again believers are “saved” so long as they are abiding in Jesus, so long as they are obeying everything Jesus commanded. People who have not completed the process of converting are “saved” so long as they are living up the light they believe is right and true.

TE: “Luther did not complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?” I believe Luther was converted, saved, born again, and justified by faith, all of which are describing the same thing.

MM: You didn’t answer the question.

TE: “Your answer to the title of this thread is – Yes, God does wait until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits. And the reason He waits is because they are unwilling to receive the truths that would require them to confess and forsake certain of their sinful habits.” I wouldn't say that's not necessarily the reason. Why did Luther remain a beer drinker?

MM: Tom, this is what you posted about it: “God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God!” [86300] What do you mean?

TE: “Living up to all the light people believe is right and true is not always the same thing as learning how to obey everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?” You are asking if not everyone has light on everything Christ taught? Yes, I agree with that. I also agree it's good to live up to the light you have.

TE: “Are you saying people we were living in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant church during the Dark Ages, before Jesus raised up the SDA church to restore and repair the truths that were all but lost during the Dark Ages?” I'm quoting your position. You are saying that one needs to know the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted.

MM: But what people who lived during the Dark Ages? Were they living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded?

TE: “Are you saying we totally agree on what it means to mature in the fruits of the Spirit after people are born again?” Since we disagree as to what it means to be converted, and as to what the important issues are, I doubt we agree on what this means. But I agree that when one is born again, one begins to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

MM: Here is what Paul wrote about people maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. “They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” But you are saying it doesn’t matter if they have crucified their sinful habits.

TE: I'm saying what I wrote, but my words mean something different to me than they do to you. I won't repeat what you believe the words mean, because you already know, and I know what you mean by them. So I'll just clarify what they mean to me. They mean to be like Christ in character. They have begun a walk with Him. Like the new Christians in Acts, that people looked at, and mocked as "Christians," because they were followers of Christ.

MM: But you believe people are like Jesus irrespective of their sinful habits, that it doesn’t matter if they are obeying everything He commanded.

TE: “Are you saying non-SDAs are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded?” Moses was a non-SDA. Luther was a non-SDA. Peter was a non-SDA. William Miller was a non-SDA. Abraham was a non-SDA. To obey everything that God commands involves present truth. The light of one day is not the same as the light in another, and even in one day it's not always the case that everyone has equal access to that light.

MM: So, are you saying non-SDAs do not live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded?

TV: What is counterfeit religion? Uhm, a religion that has the apparence or the appeal of the true religion, without having Christ as its foundation. That could be anything from the Wicca coven to the Buddhist stupa to a Muslim mosque to probably include one or another SDA church where much form of godliness is to be found but none of its power.

MM: I can see why you would lump certain SDA churches with Wicca. If what you believe is true, it makes perfect sense.

TE: No. I'm saying what I said. Anyone who knows Christ has passed from darkness to light. This is Biblical.

MM: Even if they are ignorant of the truths that can set them free from their sinful habits?

Jesus Christ is the truth who sets us free from our sinful habits. The Holy Spirit presents Christ to the prospective believer. When Christ is accepted, the power over sin is broken.

TE: “That the Holy Spirit will occupy a divided throne?” The throne isn't divided; the person has invited Christ to sit upon it. (remember, he accepted Christ as His personal Savior.)

MM: Are you saying Jesus will occupy the throne of their heart before it is cleansed of sinful habits?

"The throne isn't divided; the person has invited Christ to sit upon it." I believe this clearly answers your question. Any sin which would prevent Christ from sitting on the throne is revealed. These are what Waggoner refers to as the "representative sins" of our lives.

TE: “No one can complete the process of converting from not knowing everything Jesus commanded to obeying everything He commanded before they learn how to obey everything He commanded. Do you agree?” I believe a person is converted, as I've said very many times now, when (s)he accepts Christ.

MM: Okay, so you believe they accept Jesus irrespective of the truths that can set them free of their sinful habits.

Jesus Christ sets them free from their sinful habits. When the accept Him, they have the victory which overcomes the world.

TE: Conversion does not have to do with being translated alive. You're the only one I've ever met that has this idea. Conversion has to do with being right with God, being justified, being saved.

MM: But you believe “being right with God” has nothing to do with obeying everything Jesus commanded.

Try rephrasing this please. "Nothing do to with obeying everything" is a bit confusing.

TE: The publican was not justified? nor converted? MM, justification by faith and pardon are one and the same. When the publican asked for pardon, he received it, as did David, which Paul points out in Romans 4. Do you believe he wasn't forgiven?

MM: Again, the publican embarked upon the process of conversion, he did not complete it on the day he prayed at the temple. He was saved in the sense he was living up to the light he believed is right and true. So was David.

Saved but not converted?

TE: The people at Pentecost weren't aware of everything Jesus taught. How could they have been? There were many Gentiles there. Acts demonstrates that the "many things" had yet to be determined. The were converted as a result of believing Peter's preaching, which is recorded in Acts. It was the Gospel of Christ crucified that led to their being converted.

MM: Here is what Sister White wrote about it: “During His life on this earth He had sown the seed of truth and had watered it with His blood. The conversions that took place on the Day of Pentecost were the result of this sowing, the harvest of Christ's work, revealing the power of His teaching.” (AA 44)

Sure. The Apostles taught what they learned of Christ. They presented Christ crucified, and through the Holy Spirit many souls were convicted and converted. But remember that these were largely Gentiles, who had no acquaintance with the "all things" you are talking about. These would have been explained to them after they were converted, and as I explained previously, these "all things" weren't even agreed to for some time.

TE: No, you stated before that "saved" was not "born again." "Born again" you said was equivalent to "converted," and has to do with knowing the 28 fundamenal beliefs. "Saved" just has to do with living up to the light you have. So an non-SDA can be saved, but not converted. This is what you said. I can produce your statements if you wish.

MM: Born again believers are “saved” so long as they are abiding in Jesus, so long as they are obeying everything Jesus commanded. People who have not completed the process of converting are “saved” so long as they are living up the light they believe is right and true.

This is what you were saying before. But as I pointed out before, Ellen White says that being born again is a condition to being saved. So your distinction here is faulty. You can't be saved without being born again. In other words, all who are saved have been born again.

TE: “Luther did not complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?” I believe Luther was converted, saved, born again, and justified by faith, all of which are describing the same thing.

MM: You didn’t answer the question.

"Luther was converted." How does that not answer the question?

TE: “Your answer to the title of this thread is – Yes, God does wait until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits. And the reason He waits is because they are unwilling to receive the truths that would require them to confess and forsake certain of their sinful habits.” I wouldn't say that's not necessarily the reason. Why did Luther remain a beer drinker?

MM: Tom, this is what you posted about it: “God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God!” [86300] What do you mean?

TE: “Living up to all the light people believe is right and true is not always the same thing as learning how to obey everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?” You are asking if not everyone has light on everything Christ taught? Yes, I agree with that. I also agree it's good to live up to the light you have.

TE: “Are you saying people we were living in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant church during the Dark Ages, before Jesus raised up the SDA church to restore and repair the truths that were all but lost during the Dark Ages?” I'm quoting your position. You are saying that one needs to know the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted.

MM: But what people who lived during the Dark Ages? Were they living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded?

TE: “Are you saying we totally agree on what it means to mature in the fruits of the Spirit after people are born again?” Since we disagree as to what it means to be converted, and as to what the important issues are, I doubt we agree on what this means. But I agree that when one is born again, one begins to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

MM: Here is what Paul wrote about people maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. “They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” But you are saying it doesn’t matter if they have crucified their sinful habits.

TE: I'm saying what I wrote, but my words mean something different to me than they do to you. I won't repeat what you believe the words mean, because you already know, and I know what you mean by them. So I'll just clarify what they mean to me. They mean to be like Christ in character. They have begun a walk with Him. Like the new Christians in Acts, that people looked at, and mocked as "Christians," because they were followers of Christ.

MM: But you believe people are like Jesus irrespective of their sinful habits, that it doesn’t matter if they are obeying everything He commanded.

TE: “Are you saying non-SDAs are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded?” Moses was a non-SDA. Luther was a non-SDA. Peter was a non-SDA. William Miller was a non-SDA. Abraham was a non-SDA. To obey everything that God commands involves present truth. The light of one day is not the same as the light in another, and even in one day it's not always the case that everyone has equal access to that light.

MM: So, are you saying non-SDAs do not live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded?

This is really confusing. I don't know where your questions or comments for this current post are or which are from previous posts. Do you disagree with anything I wrote in the previous paragraph? (starting with "TE:" just above). People are not judged according to light that they do not have. You have a wonderful way of phrasing things in a "have you quit beating your wife" kind of way. I can't answer your question "yes" or "no," because doing so would be an acceptance of your premise,(your definition of what living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded means). I reject your premise. One does not have to be an SDA to be converted. One does not have to be born after 1844 to be converted.

I would say that anyone who responds to all the light they have been given (without purposely avoiding any opportunities to avoid light) is living in harmony with what Jesus commanded. Being in harmony with God encompasses this. How could it not? How can one be in harmony with God, and not be in harmony with His law, which is a transcript of His character?

Mike

Im sure there are certain SDA churches which would just as easily be lumped with 1st century pharisee religion. On the same grounds as mentioned in the passage you quoted.

Tom:(without purposely avoiding any opportunities to avoid light)

-, so... does that mean that opportunities to avoid light are to be used? Since if you do not avoid opportunities to avoid light, then you are in fact avoiding light at any opportunity to present itself? Maybe you want to rephrase that one...

This should be I would say that anyone who responds to all the light they have been given (without purposely avoiding any opportunities to obtain light) is living in harmony with what Jesus commanded.

TV: Mike, Im sure there are certain SDA churches which would just as easily be lumped with 1st century pharisee religion. On the same grounds as mentioned in the passage you quoted.

MM: You lost me. I'm not following your line of reasoning. You lumped certain SDA congregations with Wicca under the second angel's message. And now you're tossing in 1st Century Pharisees. What is the common denominator? In what way is dysfunctional SDA church families like fallen Babylon?

The common denominator, Mike, is not knowing the Saviour which is professed. If you do not know Jesus, being SDA wont be of any value whatsoever to you. As you may know, we do not subscribe to the purgatory concept. Either you know Jesus, or you do not. If you do, life awaits you, if you dont, no life in the beyond for you. I had to toss in 1st century phariseeism to make sure you didnt mistake my point as directed towards the liberal subgroup of SDA, and make sure you could see that in my view, some conservative SDA are just as likely to be in that mix.

I also keep wondering, you asked a whole bunch of questions but only commented on this particular reply...

TE: Jesus Christ is the truth who sets us free from our sinful habits. The Holy Spirit presents Christ to the prospective believer. When Christ is accepted, the power over sin is broken.

MM: So, are you saying when people accept Jesus as their personal Saviour they know how to obey everything Jesus commanded, that they are living in harmony with the fundamental beliefs of the Remnant Church?

TE: "The throne isn't divided; the person has invited Christ to sit upon it." I believe this clearly answers your question. Any sin which would prevent Christ from sitting on the throne is revealed. These are what Waggoner refers to as the "representative sins" of our lives.

MM: Then how do we differ on this aspect?

TE: Jesus Christ sets them free from their sinful habits. When the accept Him, they have the victory which overcomes the world.

MM: Again, how do we differ?

TE: “Again, the publican embarked upon the process of conversion, he did not complete it on the day he prayed at the temple. He was saved in the sense he was living up to the light he believed is right and true. So was David.” Saved but not converted?

MM: Correct.


TE: Sure. The Apostles taught what they learned of Christ. They presented Christ crucified, and through the Holy Spirit many souls were convicted and converted. But remember that these were largely Gentiles, who had no acquaintance with the "all things" you are talking about. These would have been explained to them after they were converted, and as I explained previously, these "all things" weren't even agreed to for some time.

MM: That’s not what Sister White said about it. She is very clear: “The conversions that took place on the Day of Pentecost were the result of this sowing, the harvest of Christ's work, revealing the power of His teaching.” Are you saying Jesus did not teach these particular people how to live in harmony with everything He commanded?

TE: This is what you were saying before. But as I pointed out before, Ellen White says that being born again is a condition to being saved. So your distinction here is faulty. You can't be saved without being born again. In other words, all who are saved have been born again.

MM: I disagree with your definition of rebirth.

TE: “Luther did not complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?” "Luther was converted." How does that not answer the question?

MM: Okay, so you are saying Luther was converted to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Do you really believe he was obeying everything Jesus commanded?

TE: I would say that anyone who responds to all the light they have been given (without purposely avoiding any opportunities to avoid [obtain] light) is living in harmony with what Jesus commanded. Being in harmony with God encompasses this. How could it not? How can one be in harmony with God, and not be in harmony with His law, which is a transcript of His character?

MM: “How can one be in harmony with God, and not be in harmony with His law, which is a transcript of His character?” Exactly. That’s what I’ve been asking along. You say you experienced conversion before you understood the law of God. You say Luther was converted before he observed the Sabbath. How can people complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded before they know what He commanded? Why would they consent to accept Jesus as their Saviour if they don’t know what He expects of them?

TE: Jesus Christ is the truth who sets us free from our sinful habits. The Holy Spirit presents Christ to the prospective believer. When Christ is accepted, the power over sin is broken.

MM: So, are you saying when people accept Jesus as their personal Saviour they know how to obey everything Jesus commanded, that they are living in harmony with the fundamental beliefs of the Remnant Church?

No. Living in harmony with the fundamental beliefs of the Remnant Church is not the test of conversion. The pharisees were able to do this, but they weren't converted. Knowing Christ as one's personal Savior is the necessary and sufficient condition for conversion. This is what being "born again" entails.

TE: "The throne isn't divided; the person has invited Christ to sit upon it." I believe this clearly answers your question. Any sin which would prevent Christ from sitting on the throne is revealed. These are what Waggoner refers to as the "representative sins" of our lives.

MM: Then how do we differ on this aspect?

I think it is your belief that to be converted, all sin must be revealed. I think only the sins that prevent one from giving one's heart to Christ need to be revealed.

TE: Jesus Christ sets them free from their sinful habits. When the accept Him, they have the victory which overcomes the world.

MM: Again, how do we differ?

I believe that someone like Luther was converted. You, apparently, don't.

TE: “Again, the publican embarked upon the process of conversion, he did not complete it on the day he prayed at the temple. He was saved in the sense he was living up to the light he believed is right and true. So was David.” Saved but not converted?

MM: Correct.

The problem with this idea is that to be saved, one must be born again, or converted, as per the previous SOP quote I cited.

Quote:
TE: The people at Pentecost weren't aware of everything Jesus taught. How could they have been? There were many Gentiles there. Acts demonstrates that the "many things" had yet to be determined. The were converted as a result of believing Peter's preaching, which is recorded in Acts. It was the Gospel of Christ crucified that led to their being converted.

MM: Here is what Sister White wrote about it: “During His life on this earth He had sown the seed of truth and had watered it with His blood. The conversions that took place on the Day of Pentecost were the result of this sowing, the harvest of Christ's work, revealing the power of His teaching.” (AA 44)

TE: Sure. The Apostles taught what they learned of Christ. They presented Christ crucified, and through the Holy Spirit many souls were convicted and converted. But remember that these were largely Gentiles, who had no acquaintance with the "all things" you are talking about. These would have been explained to them after they were converted, and as I explained previously, these "all things" weren't even agreed to for some time.

MM: That’s not what Sister White said about it. She is very clear: “The conversions that took place on the Day of Pentecost were the result of this sowing, the harvest of Christ's work, revealing the power of His teaching.”

Right! This doesn't mean every one at Pentecost heard Christ personally speak. There were a great deal of Gentiles that were converted at Pentecost, who came from far away, and would never have heard Christ speak. They heard Peter's preaching, which was the result of the sowing of Christ, the harvest of Christ's work, revealing the power of His teaching.

Are you saying Jesus did not teach these particular people how to live in harmony with everything He commanded?

Have you not read Acts? That says what the people heard.

TE: This is what you were saying before. But as I pointed out before, Ellen White says that being born again is a condition to being saved. So your distinction here is faulty. You can't be saved without being born again. In other words, all who are saved have been born again.

MM: I disagree with your definition of rebirth.

She said it, not I.

TE: “Luther did not complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?” "Luther was converted." How does that not answer the question?

MM: Okay, so you are saying Luther was converted to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Do you really believe he was obeying everything Jesus commanded?

"obeying everything Jesus commanded" is your phraseology, not mine. I believe Luther was converted, according to how the term is used by everyone excluding you. MM, just ask if there's anyone on this forum who thinks that Luther was not converted.

TE: I would say that anyone who responds to all the light they have been given (without purposely avoiding any opportunities to avoid [obtain] light) is living in harmony with what Jesus commanded. Being in harmony with God encompasses this. How could it not? How can one be in harmony with God, and not be in harmony with His law, which is a transcript of His character?

MM: “How can one be in harmony with God, and not be in harmony with His law, which is a transcript of His character?” Exactly. That’s what I’ve been asking along. You say you experienced conversion before you understood the law of God.

That's not what I said.

You say Luther was converted before he observed the Sabbath.

I did say this.

How can people complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded before they know what He commanded? Why would they consent to accept Jesus as their Saviour if they don’t know what He expects of them?

Because conversion has to do with knowing Christ, not with doing certain things. This is the same problem the Pharisees had when they asked Christ, "how can we do the works of God." His reply was, "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him who He has sent." Justification if by *faith*! Not by works, but by faith. We are not converted by doing "all the things that Jesus has commanded," but by faith in Christ. When one *believes*, the Holy Spirit creates a new life in the soul, and we are born again. After we are born again, we begin a process of learning more about God and His way of doing things, His principles (i.e. commandments). There are many Christians who are genuinely converted, who would rather die than commit a sin, yet they don't know some things that are in the 28 fundamental beliefs. They may not be ready for translation, but they are converted; they know Christ. They are born again, justified by faith, saved, and converted, all of which are synonyms.

MM, I showed you that Ellen White uses these terms synonymously. I gave several examples of this. I could give many more. But you can find this out for yourself. Just compare how she uses "saved" and any of the other of these terms, and you will see she uses them synonymously. I believe you have a correct understanding of what "saved" means, but all of the other terms, which are in reality synonymous to "saved," you have an incorrect idea regarding their meaning. This can be easily seen from Ellen White's writings, or Scripture.

For example, Jesus said the publican went away justified. You say not by faith, but it's obvious he was justified by faith. He asked for forgiveness, and was pardoned. This IS justification by faith. It's what it is. Pardon and justification by faith are one and the same. This can be seen from Romans 4, or the following:

Tom,

No need to reply, but please do the courtesy of reading it. It is post #85959 on Page 7:

http://www.maritime-sda-online.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=86517&page=0&fpart=7

Thanks for your understanding.

I did read it. I thought about answering it, but it was difficult because the flow of the conversation had changed, since several days and quite a few posts had passed.

I'll be happy to respond to anything you post now.

Tom Ewall wrote:

"Jesus Christ is the truth who sets us free from our sinful habits. The Holy Spirit presents Christ to the prospective believer. When Christ is accepted, the power over sin is broken."

I agree with this statement. It summarizes what I have been sharing on this thread. It answers the title of this thread.