Are the seven thunders of Rev 10 unsealed?

Adventists believe that the book of Daniel is no longer sealed based on Revelation 5 and 10 where John refers to the 'book' or 'scroll' as being unsealed and open. Adventists interpret this book as the prophecies Daniel. We have made the assumption that since the little book is unsealed, the thunders in the same chapter are unsealed as well. But let’s look briefly at that assumption and ask ourselves the question, are the seven thunders the same as the little book, or, are they a separate part of the little book?

Ellen White makes the following comment on the thunders:



According to the search I did this is the only quote where Ellen White comments directly on the seven thunders. This quote clearly places the thunders in the future and says they are undisclosed or sealed. The 'problem' with reading it that way is that it would appear to contradict her statement in the very same paragraph where she makes a direct connection between the little book and the thunders.

The apparent contradiction though is explained by reading the full paragraph. In the quote below I've underlined the past tense and italicized the future tense:



So here is how I interpret her statements above: In 1843 and 1844 the first and second angel's messages were given and were time dependant. That was the unsealing of the little book, "the message in relation to time." However, all three messages are to be repeated in power, particularly during the latter rain. The thunders are therefore not the same part of Daniel and have not been unsealed. "These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order. Daniel shall stand in his lot at the end of the days. John sees the little book unsealed. Then Daniel's prophecies have their proper place in the first, second, and third angels' messages to be given to the world." {7BC 971.4}

Mark, how does the following insight fit into it?

7BC 971
The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work. This is represented by the angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer. {7BC 971.6}

Mark , I just love Leslie Hardinge's book The Lamb, God's Greatest Gift because he keeps it so focused on reveling Jesus. I would just like to share Hardinge's thoughts on the verse.

.

MM, I've poured over that part of the quote to many times and my conclusion is always the same - the part I quoted can't be placed in the past inspite of the part you quoted. They both are true and should be given their weight.

Crater, I like Harding too. My dad has loaned me two of his series - a couple dozen tapes - and I've listened to some of them more than once. I think though that seven thunders indicates more than a single date. If you look at the only commentary on it by the SOP above, she seems to be of the view that they relate to 'events' that will be disclosed in their order. But Harding and her are both agreed IMO that they remain sealed.

The seven thunders --
EGW gives us the clue
First and second angel's messages....

Just like in Daniel the Bible gives us the names of he first symbols. (Head of gold = Babylon, ram and goat represent Persia and grecia) Knowing this we have been able to figure out the following symbols as well.

Back to the seven thunders.

Thunder One -- First angel's message

Thunder Two -- Second angel's message

Thunder Three -- Third angel's message

(Now Rev. 14 has more angels)

Thunder Four -- a fourth angel AND THE EARTH WAS REAPED
It's not a message of Jesus coming to the temple, no door to the temple is being opened as in Rev. 11:19 -- It says Christ "came out of the temple" yes the heavenly temple-- to REAP THE EARTH.
In Rev. 14:14 they have come OUT of the temple-- probation IS CLOSED, there is no more cleansing for anyone.

THUNDER Five -- a fifth angel

So let's look at the LAST angels in Rev. 14 more closely in these next verses and see what they have to say:


Two angels come forth and this is not reaping in any positive sense, this is reaping DESTRUCTION.

Now the angel in Rev. 14:17 the fifth angel or thunder, may well be the one who gives the message that the living wicked are destroyed at the second coming -- but that is not the final death, thus he is joined by the next angel, a sixth thunder, with power over fire... .


We need to let the BIBLE explain --
Why would the scriptures specifically mention that the angel came "from the altar" and had power over fire?

Revelation mentions the altar in relation to the fifth seal when a cry comes from the altar asking God to avenge the blood of the martyrs. These persecutors throughout history are all dead in their graves when Christ comes to reap the earth in the preceeding message, but now they too, along with all who rejected God's grace and salvation and filled their cups with wickedness receive their final reward.

The winepress filled with the "grapes" is trodden outside the city. WHAT CITY?
This city is a reference to the New Jerusalem which comes down from heaven, the holy city outside of which are the wicked who have been raised and now stand before the great white throne of God. Rev. 22:17
The angel has power over fire, and Rev. 20 will give you more details as to this final judgment of fire which puts an end to all sin for all eternity.

So, all three judgements are described in Rev. 14
-- the two executive judgments along with the Investigative or pre-advent judgment in Rev. 14:6-7 are:

1. Rev. 14:10 "The hour of His judgement has come" announcing the investigative judgment
2. Rev.14:14-17 The second coming
3. Rev. 14:17-19 The white throne judgment in Rev. 20

It brings together Paul's words, that "all must stand before the judgement seat of Christ". All -- all who have ever lived.
We want OUR names to come up in the investigative judgment, for it is promised:
Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The investigative judgment deals with all who have professed salvation.
The second coming reaps ALL who genuinely partook of God's salvation throughout earth's history.
The living "lost" die (but this is not yet the second death), the dead wicked are not raised till 1000 years later.
The cases of the lost are "investigated during the 1000 years)
The great white throne judgment, which is the greatest of all the judgments, comes after the 1000 years. It is then that all the wicked receive their judgment and "reward" -- not at the second coming when most of them are already dead any way.

The last, or seventh thunder?
would then mark the end of sin and the rebirth of eternal perfection.

Dedication, are you suggesting a dual application? Ellen seems to say the seven thunders were fulfilled during the Millerite Movement leading up to the Great Disappointment. "The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages."

Why would it be a dual application?

There are SEVEN THUNDERS, not just two.
EGW points us to the starting time (the thunders began when the timelines ceased as pointed out in Rev. 10)

Rev. 11:9 hears thunders when the temple is opened and the ark is seen.
Rev. 16:18 hears thunders after the seventh plague.
Rev. 14:2 hears thunder when the redeemed are on the sea of glas.

Those seven thunders started to rumble when the first angel sounded his message that the hour of judgment has come, and they will continue to rumble until judgement is fully executed and finished.


"The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work." {1MR 99.3}
So they reveal "further light" than the first and second angels message.

I'm not ready to blab but, one should be aware of the fact that the "little book" in Revelation has its origin in Ezekiel chapter 3 as a scroll that is eaten. (The New International version translates the little book in Revelation as a little scroll, unlike KJV, AMP, and NASB.)

Dedication, do you think the following passage should be taken to include the Millerite Movement and our day?

The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work. This is represented by the angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer. {7BC 971.6}

No, I'm not suggesting ANY DUAL application.
It's not a repeat but a progression.
Just like all the sevens in Revelation.

They all start at one point and then progress to the close of time. That's how the historicist way of interpreting prophecy works.

First church in John's day --> seventh church at end of time
First seal in John's day --> seventh seal at end of time
First trumpet --> first physical judgement upon a nation claiming but in practise denying their link with God --> last trumpet at the end of time when the time for judgment of whole world has come.
First plague at the beginning of time of trouble --> seventh plague which is at the very end.
All have a specific starting point and as each of the seven unfold we move down the scenes of time till we come to the seventh which lands us in the scenes of the end.


Thus with the seven thunders.
They appear in Revelation chapter 10 which deals with the 1844 movement. That is their beginning point.

The first thunder is the first angel's message as the judgment hour is announced "the hour of His judgment is come". It began to sound with Miller's preaching. (Though he didn't fully understand the full message)

If they would have understood the seven thunders they would never have thought Christ would come in 1844 as the thunders had only started then, there were still more to come.

The second thunder is the second angel's message as people had to chose between mainline churches or following the message.

The third angel's message started just after 1844 as the first message was grasped with fuller understanding, the breach in the commandments was being repaired.

Those messages are STILL sounding with increasing clarity for all true believers.
The point in the quote you give -- it tells us where to look for the meaning of the seven thunders.

The Millerites never understood the seven thunders. They thought the first angel's message was the coming of Christ, but those who passed the test of faith discovered that the first angel was announcing the investigative judgment prior to the second coming, not the second coming itself for there were more angels to follow. (More thunders)

Revelation 14 doesn't stop with three angel's --
If you read my post you'll find it's not just "Miller's day" or "our day"
The seven thunders take us from the 1844 movement clear down to the end of the 1000 years.

Their chief emphases is on God's JUDGMENT
Starting with the investigative judgment and the 1844 movement and ending with the last great judgment after the 1000 years -- the Great White Throne judgement of Rev. 20

Sorry for the confusion. That's what I meant to ask. Thank you for clarifying your point.


How did you arrive at this conclusion? Nothing is written about them in the Bible. John was told not to record them. "And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not."

Ellen White believed the seven thunders described events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. She said nothing about subsequent events. "The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages." Here she is referring specifically to the Millerite Movement.

I don't see EGW's statement limiting them to Miller's time. Of course if you just take ONE sentence it may seem to, but then she goes on to say after the "test" more light would be revealed.

To say they were the first and second angel's message already would deny that John didn't write ANYTHING concerning them.
He did write concerning them but not directly.

He didn't write:
And the first thunder sounded and I saw an angel flying in the heavens with the everlasting gospel to preach to every kindred and nation, saying, fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of his judgment is come.

And the second thunder sounded and I saw another angel crying with a loud voice, Babylon is fallen.....

And the third thunder sounded and ......

Unlike his depictions of the seals, trumpets, etc. he didn't write about them directly. It is left to the student of scripture to see the connections, and EGW tells us where to look --

The thunders began with the Millerite movement and depict the first and second angel's messages and until the "adventists" passed the test of 1844 no further light would be revealed, BUT when the test was passed MORE light would be given. They began to understand the rest of the angels.

And as I tried to share -- MORE ANGELS sounded the last warnings there in Reve. 14. There are six angels in Rev. 14 and a seventh joins in, in Rev. 18.

You seem to be saying John eventually wrote out the seven thunders in Rev 14 and 18.

"In the revelation given to John there was unfolded scene after scene of thrilling interest in the experience of the people of God, and the history of the church foretold to the very close of time."

Revelation was not to be a sealed book.

Revelation 10 has an interesting juxtopostion of sealed and unsealed messages. We generally attribute the unsealing to the unsealing of the prophetic messages (especially Daniel) yet obviously everything isn't unsealed at once. The thunders are still sealed when "the little book is eaten" and then found to be "bitter".

Personally I think this is what caused the "book" to be "bitter". They didn't understanding the "thunders" which are about the whole judgment steps that would begin with the investigative judgment in 1844, which the 1844 movement was to alert the world to. Of course the full scope of judgment also includes the second coming executive judgment, as well as the endtime judgment after the 1000 years when every person ever to live upon this earth stands before God's judgment throne.

That was all sealed for them as they only saw an immediate executive 2nd coming judgment to take place in 1844.

But does that mean it would be sealed forever?
I guess that's the question we need to think about.

Didn't EGW also mention that they had to pass the "test" before further light would be revealed? The writings of the pioneers after 1844 state many times that Christ couldn't have come at the giving of the first angel's message because more angels were to follow.

In the days of the voice of the seventh trumpet angel, which began with the experience of Rev. 10, John saw the most holy place of God's temple opened. "And the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament; and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." Rev.11:19.

As James wrote in his "Bible Adventism" concerning the part that was "not understood" by the Millerites:


In fact Revelation 11 (the first verses of which actually belong to Revelation 10) urges the disappointed one to go and measure the temple.


"A reed like a rod was given me, and the angel said, Rise, and measure the temple of the God, and the altar, and them that worship therein." But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not" (11:1-2)
They were commanded to "measure the temple".
They thought the sanctuary was this earth--
They thought the earth would be cleansed at the end of the time periods.
But no-- they were NOT to measure the "courtyard" of the temple.
The "courtyard" where the altar of sacrifice stood represents the earth.

However, the inner holy places of the earthly sanctuary represented the great heavenly sanctuary.

What was to be measured?

The same three things that were to be cleansed in the day of atonement!

The altar,(Lev. 16:18)
the sanctuary (Lev. 16:16)
and the worshipers! (16:17)

After the "test" the truths of God's system of judgment was opened for the believers.

Yet, even Revelation 14 was not really understood -- so in a sense was sealed until after the disappointed. The angel of Rev. 18 still isn't fully understood. Though as I've been looking more in this "spiritual formation" that is sweeping through the churches I think the "full of demons and every foul spirit" is becoming clearer. Can we rise to give the true message which will also fill the earth with HIS glory?

Are you saying the seven angels of Rev 14 & 18 proclaim the seven thunders of Rev 10?

Which of the seven angels of Rev 14 and 18 is the following angel? Or, is it a separate one?

10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

What are the seven thunders?

10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

What does "time no longer" mean?

10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Which of the seven angels of Rev 14 and 18 is the following angel?

10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is the little book?

10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

What does "prophesy again" mean?

10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

What is the "mystery of God"?

10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What does the following prophecy mean?

11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

CT 414
The kingdoms of this world have not yet become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ. Do not deceive yourselves; be wide awake and move rapidly, for the night cometh in which no man can work. {CT 414.2}

GC 301
About His coming cluster the glories of that "restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began." Acts 3:21. Then the long-continued rule of evil shall be broken; "the kingdoms of this world" will become "the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever." Revelation 11:15. "The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together." "The Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations." He shall be "for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of His people." Isaiah 40:5; 61:11; 28:5. {GC 301.3}

GC 433
Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement. Those who by faith followed their great High Priest as He entered upon His ministry in the most holy place, beheld the ark of His testament. As they had studied the subject of the sanctuary they had come to understand the Saviour's change of ministration, and they saw that He was now officiating before the ark of God, pleading His blood in behalf of sinners. {GC 433.1}

If the tenth day of the seventh month symbolized time after 1844, would that mean that this blessing from Heaven would occur 190 years later? (day = year, month = 30 days, 6 months = 180 days, 180 days + 10 days = 190 days meaning 190 years)

The tenth day of the seventh month is the day of atonement according to the Jewish feast days. The Millerites thought Christ would come on that day. October 22, 1844. It was not a time line.

It wasn't an angel in the regular sense of the word. It was Christ Himself.

" The mighty angel who instructed John was no less a personage than Jesus Christ. Setting His right foot on the sea, and His left upon the dry land, shows the part which He is acting in the closing scenes of the great controversy with Satan." 1 MR 99




The seven thunders represent the steps in God's judgment commensing in 1844 with the Investigative Judgment.

"After these seven thunders uttered their voices, the injunction comes to John as to Daniel in regard to the little book: "Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered" (Revelation 10:4). These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order." 1 MR 99

They begin with the first and second angels' message "the hour of His judgment is come", "Come out" but the full meaning of these messages was "sealed" and they progressed no further until after "the test". The meaning of 1st and 2nd angels' messages, as well as the following angels in Rev. 14 and 18 would be more fully understood as they were "disclosed in their order".



The prophetic time lines had reached their endpoint.

" This time which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844." 1 MR 100

"The message of salvation has been preached in all ages; but this message [the opening of the Judgment]is a part of the gospel which could be proclaimed only in the last days, for only then would it be true that the hour of Judgment had come. The prophecies present a succession of events leading down to the opening of the Judgment. This is especially true of the book of Daniel. But that part of his prophecy which related to the last days, Daniel was bidden to close up and seal "to the time of the end." Not till we reach this time could a message concerning the Judgment be proclaimed, based on a fulfillment of these prophecies. GC 355

The timelines point to the beginning of the judgment when Christ was brought before the Ancient of Days (See Daniel 7) to receive His kingdom and present before the Father and the heavenly angels the citizens that would inherit that kingdom through Him. (See Rev. 3:5-6)

The "time" between His going before the Father, and later coming in the clouds of glory to receive the faithful is not given -- we are not to make any time predictions as to when probation closes or Christ will come.





The angel of Rev. 10:7 is the last of the trumpet angels, he is not one of the angels of Rev. 14 or 18.
The seven trumpets is a sequence that spans a lot larger time period.

The seventh trumpet begins in 1844 when Christ goes before the "Ancient of Days" and takes us right to the completion of "the mystery of God" in saving mankind.
(By the way -- Bible writers often write the conclusion first, as in the "the kingdoms have become the kingdoms of Christ", and then go back and fill in the details, as in " the time of the dead, that they should be judged...The temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament" etc. )

Quoting from the seventh trumpet angel:
"The temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament." [REV. 11:19.] The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," this apartment was opened only upon the great day of atonement, for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and the ark of his testament was seen, points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, in 1844, as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement.{GC 433.1}

It is this work of judgment, immediately preceding the second advent, that is announced in the first angel's message of Rev. 14:7: "Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his Judgment is come." {GC88 352.2}





The little book was the prophetic book [especially Daniel]

They "ate" the message and fully believed Christ would come on Oct. 22, 1844 -- the sweetest message! But oh, how bitter when Christ did not come.



After 1844 more truth was revealed and they (we) have to proclaim it. The judgment messages of the angels in Rev. 14 and 18.

Why do you wonder if it is time after 1844? Why not the day Jesus entered the MHP?

The thought simply came to mind. Is there a different date for when Jesus first entered MHP?

Amen!


I want to believe what you’re saying, but I’m having a hard reconciling it with the following insights:


1. The “future events” were future relative to John’s time.

2. The “unsealing of the little book was the message in relation to time. . . This is represented by the angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer. . . After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. . . The comprehension of truth, the glad reception of the message, is represented in the eating of the little book. The truth in regard to the time of the advent of our Lord was a precious message to our souls.” Unsealing and eating the message of time between 1842 and 1844 is included in the “events”.

3. The “special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work.” God purposely withheld light because they needed to be tested. The seven thunders described “events” that transpired between 1842 and 1844.


I agree “time no longer” means prophetic time ended in 1844. Jesus will not give us another message based on time.


I agree the seventh trumpet began to be sounded in 1844 and will continue until probation closes. However, the context of the “seventh angel” in Rev 10:7 suggests the seventh thunder ended in 1844.


Ellen White wrote, “John sees the little book unsealed. Then Daniel's prophecies have their proper place in the first, second, and third angels' messages to be given to the world. The unsealing of the little book was the message in relation to time.” Seems to me the “little book” was the message and experience of the Millerites. Daniel didn’t prophesy their mistake and great disappointment.


I thought it meant “this time proclaim the message correctly” (without the mistake).

Oops! I meant to write HP (not MHP).

I take it you believe the "mystery of God" in Rev 10:7 involves the salvation of sinners. Why do you believe this?

Of course they were future to John's time.
But remember the position of the thunders in the trumpet sequence as well.
Revelation 10 follows the sixth trumpet, it is at this point that Christ takes His position in the closing scenes of earth's history -- mainly entering the judgment phase which began in 1844.

Chapter 10 is a prelude to the seventh trumpet --
it shows Christ moving into the final phase in the closing scenes of earth's history.

Chapter 11 is also a prelude to the seventh trumpet, showing the "wounding" of the papal beast in the French Revolution and the emerging of the "beast from the bottomless pit" (11:7) which is masonic spiritualism (the power that fueled the Revolution) which the devil brings on for the final battles.

The seventh trumpet angel isn't mentioned again till vs 11:15

I don't believe the seventh trumpet is only from 1844 to the close of propation. Yes, it STARTS in 1844 but is NOT completed till "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

All seven thunders either announce or take place during the seventh trumpet.



What future events? --
Notice what is UNSEALED at this point -- the prophecies of Daniel! True only the time element was understood prior to 1844, they didn't understand the full message, but after the disappointment it led them
into understanding the first, second and third angels messages.

Again this is all pointing to the beginning of the judgment hour, which began in 1844 and will move into different phases till sin is fully eradicated and all things are reconciled.

What does it mean "Daniel will stand in his lot".
Yes, it means Daniel's message will be understood and proclaimed, but it means more than that.

"Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days." {Ev 221.3}

Again it's pointing to the judgment hour.
The time when first, second and third angels messages are to go forth to the whole world to prepare them for the time when the next three angels of Rev. 14 thunder.












So how does that "conflict"?

The little book wasn't JUST about "time" (though that was first thing they discovered)
It was the whole truth that the "time" pointed to -- mainly the coming of the judgment and the nearness of Christ's coming! "2300 days then shall the sanctuary be cleansed".

The only way it would conflict with what I wrote is if you limit it all to one year (to the pre1844 understanding) -- yet go back and read all those quotes and you will see it "shows the part which He [Christ] is acting in the closing scenes of the great controversy"

She most definitely does NOT limit it a mere two years, but shows that those two years are the crucial BEGINNING POINT of the last days -- the point where Christ ceases His Holy Place work and moves into the final work of judgment which progresses until justice and righteousness is fully achieved in the universe.

Again and again she stresses that we need to listen to those who experienced those testing years in order that we have a firm foundation as to our understanding of prophecy (especially the 3rd angels message) and coming events. (See 2SM 103)

What makes 1844 important?
What is the CORRECT message of the first angel in relation to the "hour of His judgment is come"?

The question naturally arises what was the mistake? Did the mistake consist in erroneous computation of the time, or in
the event to take place at the end of the days? The text says, " Onto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." No mistake is found in the time. What then is the sanctuary ? and what is meant by its cleansing?



What is the message? Is it that several hundred people were greatly disappointed?
Or is it that something VERY IMPORTANT began as Christ took His position in His final work in dealing with the sin problem?


The Bible tells us what is to be prophecied:




"Those who " ate " the book, and gave the " time " proclamation, deemed their work for the world was done; hence
the declaration that they must again teach nations, and tongues, and kings. Another part of the work, hitherto unseen, must now be accomplished,— that of presenting to the people the real character of the temple of God in heaven and its altar service. The command to measure the temple is needful in order to gain a knowledge of the nature of the event to transpire at the close of the prophetic time, and thus an explanation be given of the words, " Then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." (J. N. Loughborough p. 194)

It is quite clear that the message was to be the three angels messages (joined by the angel of Rev. 18)

the "mystery of God" in Rev 10:7

Since the text says "the mystery of God should be finished," it can't refer to the greatness of God that is beyond finite understanding, for that is eternal.

So yes, it is God's work of salvation for mankind.

J.N. Andrews (April 18,1855, p.3 RH) writes:

"The opening of the holiest of all in the temple of heaven by which the ark is seen, is an event that takes place under the sounding of the seventh angel...at the termination of the 2300 days....
It is the days of the voice of the seventh angel in which the mystery of God is being finished; that is, the period when human probation is being wound up.
The present time is therefore, the proper period for the last message of mercy to perishing men; and it is marked
by the actual presentation of that voice of warning and
of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

In the chronology of the third angel the seven last
plagues are poured out upon those who reject his
warning.. The seven last plagues are the wine of the wrath of God poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation. We have already seen that they are not inflicted until the work of mercy for man is accomplished. The third angel warns us respecting this outpouring of the exterminating wrath of God, and consequently gives the latest message of mercy. The
mystery of God, or work of salvation for sinful men,
(Eph. iii,) is finished in the days of the voice of the
seventh {trumpet} angel, when he begins to sound; (Rev. x;)
and as the third angel has the last warning of mercy before the vials of God's wrath are poured out,
it follows that it must be given in the days when
the seventh {trumpet} angel begins to sound. It is likewise
evident that the conclusion of the work of our great
High Priest in the heavenly Sanctuary must also
take place in the days when the seventh {trumpet} angel begins to sound; for it is then that the mystery of
God is finished. The reason why the third woe, or
seven last plagues, does not commence at once when
the seventh angel begins to sound, is the fact that a
period of days is occupied in finishing the mystery
of God. In this period the warning of the third
angel is given that every one who has an ear to hear
may escape the vials of the wrath of God; and in
this period also the Saviour completes his work in
the Sanctuary in heaven. This being accomplished,
the vials of the wrath of God are poured out upon
the defenceless heads of the wicked. We think
therefore, that the evidence is conclusive that the
present is the time for the warning of the third angel."

Nice work. Thank you. Parts of the NT makes it seem like the mystery of God pertains to the conversion and salvation of Gentiles.

Seems to me eating the "little book" symbolized the Millerite Movement and the resulting Great Disappointment. It sounds like you're saying the "little book" is specifically the prophecies of Daniel. Did I misunderstand you?

Aren't they connected?

Wasn't it the prophecies in the book of Daniel with its timelines that the Millerites "ate" and which were so sweet but then turned bitter?
Didn't the Millerites also build their case on the first two angels in Revelation 14?
They were "eating" the prophetic messages and it was "sweet"?

But now we must ask, "Why did something sweet turn bitter"?

Are the prophecies pointing to something "bitter"?

No, it was their misunderstanding of the prophecies to which all these time lines pointed that caused the bitterness. The timelines are all pointing to the final work of Christ in judgment and the finishing of the mystery of God.
They needed further light, fuller understanding, on the prophecies they had "eaten".

They needed the truths connected with the sanctuary.

I don't see how the "little book" can symbolize the prophecies of Daniel. There is nothing in the book of Daniel about the Millerite Movement and the Great Disappointment. Which is why I'm leaning toward believing the seven thunders describe the events that transpired between 1842-44. I don't foresee the Remnant Church making mistakes in the future. I anticipate them proclaiming the 3AMs in accordance with the prophecies.

The little book isn't the Millerite movement. The little book CAUSED the Millerate movement.

They took the little book and ate it.
What does that mean?
It means they studied it, contemplated it, were convicted by it.
That little book said "Unto 2300 days then shall the sanctuary be cleansed". They studied Daniel and figured it out that those 2300 days would end in 1844.

They were overjoyed with the thought that Jesus would come at that time. That was the sweetness.

Their mistake was misunderstanding the SANCTUARY JUdGEMENT Message within those porphecies, which lead to their disappointment.

To eat a book
signifies, in the figurative language of the Scriptures, to receive its teachings into the mind and heart. Jer. 15 :16; Eze. 3:3.

From "Bible Readings 1889" p.99-100



And from the RH, Feb. 18,1858
Doesn't mention the author though probably either James White or JN Andrews.



And from the RH, August 13, 1861
by U. Smith



Ellen White wrote:

Dedication, thank you for posting all the quotes. It's very helpful to know what our pioneers believed. I should have mentioned that I believe eating the "little book" involved a misunderstanding of the prophecies of Daniel. Do you think "thou must prophesy again" is a continuation of eating the "little book" which began in 1842? And, if the seven thunders describes events which transpired between 1842 and 1844, why do you think they have continued to play out?

To eat a book signifies, in the figurative language of the Scriptures, to receive its teachings into the mind and heart.

Yes, they continued to "eat" the prophetic messages revealed in Daniel and Revelation, else how could they prophecy again? How could they have "measured the temple" and found the sanctuary doctrine. They compared the prophetic books to the rest of scripture and came to a fuller understanding.


Do you believe Revelation 10 is only a history lesson on the people who experienced the disappointment?

Do you believe the thunders just spoke of their disappointment?

It seems you are hung up on one phrase from EGW and don't look at the broader scope of what she was saying.
EGW also mentions that they had to pass the "test" before further light would be revealed. She makes it clear that Christ stood and --"He cries with a loud voice. He is to show the power and authority of His voice to those who have united with Satan to oppose the truth."

What does that mean?


If the thunders are merely telling the events of 1842-1844 they don't mean anything to anyone. The Millerites didn't understand them so they were no good them, and for us they just mean there was a disappointment back then -- (but that is already told by the "sweet to bitter" part) so we might as well just throw the thunders out and not discuss them anymore -- they are simply superficial words in scripture .

Now -- I don't believe the last sentence that I wrote.

I believe the thunders announce Christ's judgment and show the sequence of judgment.

The judgment was announced by the first angel of Rev. 14 whose message was first preached just prior to 1844.
The Millerites, though they accuratedly predicted the time, did not understand the full scope of God's judgment sequence. "The hour of His judgment is come" started with investigative judgment, and deals with the "finishing of the mystery of God" -

Had the Millerites understood the thunders they would never have taught that earth's clocks would stop on Oct. 22, 1844. They would have realized that a rather lengthy time lay between the commencement of judgment in the heavenly courts and the execution judgment.

The whole movement of 1844 was appointed by God to alert the world to the beginning of the endtime judgment.

The first four thunders are part of "the finishing of the mystery of God" -- a great appeal to people to be prepared for the end of probation.

1st thunder -- began prior to 1844 -- announcing the time for judgment had come (1st angel Rev. 14)

2nd thunder -- began prior to 1844 urging separation from falsehood (2nd angel of Rev. 14)

3rd thunder -- very strong warning on the judgments to fall on those who do not keep the commandments of God nor have the faith of Jesus, but follow the beast instead.

4th thunder -- Another angel joins the first three with urgent cries to separate from mainstream religion because it has given itself over completely to spiritualism. (Rev. 18:2-4)

The last three deal with the executive judgment.

5th thunder --
(fourth angel of Rev. 14)
14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This very likely includes the announcement of the day and hour Christ is to "reap" the earth!

Thunders

Just some quotes to a sense of meaning on "thunders".

[quote]Said he, "All the thunders and lightnings of Mount Sinai would not move those who will not be moved by the plain truths of the word of God, neither would an angel's message awake them." {EW 50.3}

"the remnant followed Jesus into the most holy place and beheld the ark....The commandment reads as when spoken by the voice of God in solemn and awful grandeur upon the mount, while the lightnings flashed and the thunders rolled. {EW 255.1}

"The papal thunders were soon hurled against him.{GC 85}

"The thunders rolled and the lightnings flashed from the opening heavens, and a voice came therefrom in terrible majesty, saying, "This is my beloved Son,"


" The thunders of God's word startle him from his lethargy, and he calls for mercy in the name of Jesus. RC 64

"His righteous thunders gather. His vivid lightnings flash; it is the wrath of the Lamb.. {BEcho May 30,1898}

In this particular case I suspect John's eating the "little book" as he was receiving the Revelation symbolized the bitter-sweet experience of the Millerites between 1842 and 1844.


True, Jesus permitted them to discover the truth after He tested them. However, I suspect "thou must prophesy again" means, "Now, go and share the truth about Jesus entering the MHP in 1844."


I'm hoping studying with you will help me arrive at an answer to this question.


Same answer as above.


I suspect Jesus' position on sea and land and John's eating the "little book" symbolize different realities.


John was told not to write them so that the Millerites could be tested. There are several fulfilled prophecies in the Bible. Just because they are fulfilled it doesn't mean they are useless. We can learn much from how God has led the church in the past.


Since the Millerites were not teaching the truth, how can we say they were fulfilling the first angel's message?


Did the Millerites preach the truth in accordance with the second angel's message? Did they say the RCC is fallen?


Do you know of any pioneers who believed as you do? If so, how did they establish it?

That was already answered --
The book itself did not prophecy the bitter/sweet experience, the book prophecied about timelines leading to the "cleansing of the sanctuary". It prophecied about "times, time and a dividing of times". It prophecied about 1260, 1290 days and 1335 days.

The Angel showed that these time-prophecies were open, and at an end.







Of course -- that's what I've been pointing out. What was to be cleansed at the end of the 2300 days? The work of judgement commenses in the Most Holy Place.

Daniel 7's thrones are set up, the Ancient of days takes His seat, the vaste numbers of angels surronding Him, the books are opened the court is seated, Christ is brought before the court...

Revelation 10 and the first verse of 11 tells us what they were to prophecy --

"I took the little book out of the angel's hand,
and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet
as honey; and as soon as I had eaten it, my
belly was bitter. And he said unto me, Thou
must prophesy again before many peoples,
and nations, and tongues, and kings. And there was given
me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise,
and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that
worship therein."

The TIMELINES pointed to the beginning of judgment.
The message was "the hour of His judgment is come".
They had the right time.
They had the right message.
They just didn't understand it correctly.

They were to study the heavenly sanctuary --
MEASURE (which implies judgment)
the temple
the altar
the worshippers

That is what Lev. 16 (the day of atonement)
cleanses.
The temple. the altar, the congregation.

This is what is meant by "in 2300 days then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" Dan. 8:14



Why would this be the introduction of the scene if it's speaking of something else. I don't think it's speaking of something else. When one follows the theme of the judgment through the prophecies it becomes clear that at the end of time, Christ moves into "finishing the mystery of God" by entering the judgment room of the heavenly sanctuary where the ark, with the commandments of God are seen.

This was the message of the Millerites "The hour of His judgment is come" (Rev. 14)(though they didn't understand it any more than the disciples understood the message they were given to preach "the kingdom of heaven is at hand")



But if it's just that the people would be disappointed and had to prophecy again, the thunders weren't sealed at all, because in the very next verses the disappointment is predicted.
Thus sealed thunders become irrelevant.
The thunders told the truth about what was to begin at the end of the timelines -- the beginning of the judgment and the sequence of God's judgment as the mystery of God was finishing.

I don't believe the thunders were about the disappointment at all -- they were about the real meaning of the timelines pointed to, the beginning and sequence of judgment which began with first and second angel's messages.

The reason they were "sealed" is because the full impact of "judgment" would have been lost (as it is in Adventism in general today) if they merely taught that Christ moved from the "holy" to the "most holy".

The high impact of "Christ is coming" moved them to understand the importance of "being right with God NOW".

A hundred years is like nothing to an infinite God -- CHRIST IS COMING, He is "finishing the mystery of God" the final moments of earths probation.



What do you mean they weren't teaching the truth?
They didn't understand the WHOLE truth, but they were still preaching truth.

1. They were preaching the truth about time.
2. They were preaching the truth about HOW Christ would come.
3. They were preaching the truth that the "hour of judgment is come".

The only thing they misunderstood was that the sanctuary to cleansed at the end of the timelines was not this earth by fire. The timelines pointed to the beginning of the judgment in the heavenly courts.




Babylon is far more than RCC as you can read in GC chapter 21.
And yes, the Millerites preached the message -- you'll find statements in the Advent Herald (millerite paper) like this one from Aug. 1844.
"BABYLON in the Revelation is Rome, not only
upon account of Rome's being guilty of usurpation
tyranny, and idolatry, and of persecuting the
Church of God in the same manner as the old literal
Babylon was,...."

The first and second Angels' Messages STARTED prior to 1844, but they are not completed ---

Concerning the 2nd Angel:

Dedication, thank you for answering my questions. I hear you saying the seven thunders are spelled out in the Revelation. We agree the Millerites were right about the date but wrong about the event. We also agree the first angel's message points to the "hour" of judgment, the second angel's message says Babylon is fallen, and the third angel's message warns people not to receive the mark of beast.

I suspect preaching the three angels' messages and actually fulfilling the prophecy are two different realities. The prophecy literally describes the 144,000 numbered and sealed saints preaching the three messages during the mark of the beast crisis. That experience is still future.

By "fulfilling the prophecy" do you mean coming to its end point?

The three angel's messages will continue to be preached till probation closes, (indeed swelling into a loud cry). However, they started around 1844 and we are to be preaching them NOW. That is all part of "fulfilling the prophecy" even though the completion is still future.

When the saints are "sealed" probation will be closed -- it will be rather late to start preaching don't you think?



In looking at Revelation 14 we need to be aware of a style of writing.
Much confusion comes from believing each seqment is written in sequential order of the next seqment.

Yet, look closely --
John keeps giving us pictures of heaven, and then returns to the scenes on earth that take place prior to the second coming.
If we don't recognize this we will have the saints in heaven many times before the second coming.

Rev. 7 -- the saints are pictured in heaven prior to the seventh seal.

Rev. 14 -- begins with a picture of the 144,000
on Mt. Zion (in heaven singing a new song and playing harps before the throne and before the 24 elders) this depiction is given prior to the account of the judgment calls of the three angels messages (and the next three angels which are also in that chapter)

Rev. 15:2 -- we see a picture of the saints on the sea of glass prior to the account of the pouring out of the seven plagues.

John keeps giving us a glimpse of the END
before commenting on the terrible things that would happen on earth just before the end.

Thus it appears the depiction of the 144,000 prior to the account of six angels and their messages of judgment in chapter 14 give the picture of victory for the faithful before giving the warnings of destruction for the worshipers of the beast.

It says nothing about the 144,000 now going forth to preach -- it says they are redeemed from the earth before the throne.

It appears all preaching is already finished at that point.

Dedication, I haven't read all the thread, but did MM or anyone point out that the statement by Ellen White on the thunders in 7 SDABC, 971 says the thunders 'relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order'.

She places all seven in the future. True, she puts them in the past as well, but if she meant us in the above phrase where she puts them in the future to understand that they were in the future in relation to John the way of expressing that thought is to use the word 'would' rather than 'will' - 'these relate to future events which would be disclosed . . .' Further on in the same quote we see that she uses that tense in applying the prophecy to the Millerites, which suggests she is carefullly selecting her tenses here and throughout the passage. Her use of tenses therefore should be carefully noted.

And she also gives the specific period when the thunders have sounded and are to sound in the future; she says they sound during the first and second angel's messages.



Also, notice that she says the thunders are 'events', suggesting that they can't be messages.

We all have our own views of course and I don't mean to urge mine on you of the forum, but for now, I'd say I'm content with the view that the thunders are still sealed and still future. There was a partial fulfilment in the past with the early Adventists, but for us, they are still sealed. I know I'm in the minority on this view.

Dedication, thank you for sharing those interesting observations. I am learning lots studying with you. I was under the impression, though, that the 144,000 will be numbered and sealed gradually throughout the MOB crisis, which would be how and why the 3AMs swell to a Loud Cry. What do you think?

Mark, it makes sense to me that the seven thunders John saw in prophecy were fulfilled between 1842 and 1844. But it also makes sense to me that, as you said, they will be fulfilled again. But I suspect we will be ignorant of them as were the Millerites. Did Ellen White describe in detail how each of the seven thunders played out during the Millerite Movement?

Before going on I think I need to know what you believe the MOB crises is?

Yes, the quotes were posted several time.
Personally I do NOT see a dual application but a sequential application.
To "thunder" usually implies judgment.
Thus I believe the thunders describe the sequence of judgments that wrap up the end times.

As you noted, EGW seems to place thunders both in her day as well as the future.
Like the "seals" the thunders cover a larger time period than happening "all at once".
She definitely links thunders as beginning in the 1844 movement with the 1st and 2nd angel's proclamations.
That's when God's judgment began (as in investigative judgment) and of course executive judgment is yet future.





Yes, the proclamation of the 1st angel's message announced an EVENT -- "the hour of His judgement has come".
That is the first thunder --
The messages all deal with events
The thunders are the events

Go back and read the paragraph introducing the seven thunders:
"The mighty angel who instructed John was no less a personage than Jesus Christ. Setting His right foot on the sea, and His left upon the dry land, shows the part which He is acting in the closing scenes of the great controversy with Satan."

So what part is Christ acting in the closing scenes of the great Controversy?

The TIME OF THE END began in 1844
The Judgement began in 1844.
That's when Christ took His place in the Most Holy Place to judge.

Personally I think Adventists have lost the meaning of the investigative judgment which entails the "FINISHING of the mystery of God".

The call to "come out" into true worship while the rest of the world descends into spiritualistic worship also started back around 1844.

The standard of judgment was brought into full light around 1844 -- the ark of the covenant was seen containing the same ten commandments God spoke with thunder thousands of years earlier.

So I believe the thunders deliniate the sequence of God's judgments.

It covers not just the first angels message (which announces the beginning of the judgment, the IJ, which must take place before Christ comes) but also the other judgments along the way.

The third angel's message also announces an event --
the falling of the plagues. It's message is a strong warning which, if not heeded will find the world suffering in a very real EVENT, which is the falling of the plagues.

The three angel's messages are all about judgment but they are also warnings for they are given before "the mystery of God is finished" and probation is still open.

Rev.14 continues with other angels
Thunders that roll after probation closes --
--announcing Christ's coming with a sickle in hand to harvest the earth. (2nd coming)
--next announcing the final battle when all that ever lived receive their judgment and blood reaches up to the horses bridles
This is the last judgment -- the last judgment event --

I suspect the crisis will begin when Sunday laws are enforced. When Sabbath-keepers must choose between the laws of man and the laws of God the crisis will be well under way.

But won't it be too late to start sounding the three angels message then?

Personally I don't think the Sunday laws will come in till well after the crises has begun.

The following is already being done today:

".. the claim that the fast-spreading corruption is largely attributable to the desecration of the so-called "Christian sabbath" and that the enforcement of Sunday observance would greatly improve the morals of society. This claim is especially urged in America, where the doctrine of the true Sabbath has been most widely preached."--GC 587 (1911).

Moral majority, papists and others are saying this.

However, they can't do much about it.
They need a crises.

And we know that it will be some major catastrophies that bring it in:

" From the pulpits of the popular churches will be heard the statement that the world is being punished because Sunday is not honored as it should be. And it will require no great stretch of imagination for men to believe this. They are guided by the enemy, and therefore they reach conclusions which are entirely false. {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 9}

I am really quite concerned that Adventists have been sort of lulled to sleep, waiting for the alarm of a Sunday law. And too often reworking the prophecies to put them in the future, when prophecy shows the "time of the end" is already here.

The last climatic events will be rapid -- we need to be sealed before the full blast hits.

One writer (can't remember who) wrote that Satan is too smart to bring in the Sunday laws in the beginning of the time of the end. He knows that Adventists would wake up and do damage to his agenda. So he works to gradually set up all forces, deceptions, erode the constitution and bring in a government that can turn tyrannical in day, bring in spiritism and make it sound like revival, etc. Then when the Sunday laws come they will spring like a trap.

Don't wait till the Sunday laws -- by then it may be way too late.

That's why God gave us the message at the beginning of the "time of the end".

I've found that generally those who allow for future applications have greater urgency in their message and their appeal to be prepared than those who take a purely historical approach.

The SOP says that it is when we as a church understand the end time prophecises of Daniel and Revelation better that we'll see a great revival. If the truths presented by say Uriah Smith were enough to enlighten and revive the church, why urge us to study and search for greater light.

Ellen White herself knew much more about the prophecies that we give her credit for. There are many statements in her writings showing greater understanding and insight than her peers. Historicists and in fact all of us unfortunately tend to ignore them or interpret them to fit our views. So she repeated urges us to come to scripture with a prayerful attitude and opened mind.

Saying Sunday Laws will come is not as convincing as saying Sundays Laws are here. Ellen White wrote:

“Heretofore those who presented the truths of the third angel's message have often been regarded as mere alarmists. Their predictions that religious intolerance would gain control in the United States, that church and state would unite to persecute those who keep the commandments of God, have been pronounced groundless and absurd. It has been confidently declared that this land could never become other than what it has been--the defender of religious freedom. But as the question of enforcing Sunday observance is widely agitated, the event so long doubted and disbelieved is seen to be approaching, and the third message will produce an effect which it could not have had before. {GC 605.3}


The crisis I’m referring to is the Sunday Law Crisis. Ellen White wrote:

“Those who are making an effort to change the Constitution and secure a law enforcing Sunday observance little realize what will be the result. A crisis is just upon us.--5T 711, 753 (1889). {LDE 126.2}

“A great crisis awaits the people of God. A crisis awaits the world. The most momentous struggle of all the ages is just before us. . . . The question of enforcing Sunday observance has become one of national interest and importance. We well know what the result of this movement will be. But are we ready for the issue? Have we faithfully discharged the duty which God has committed to us of giving the people warning of the danger before them? . . . {Mar 131.1}

“In a Sunday law there is possibility for great suffering to those who observe the seventh day. The working out of Satan's plans will bring persecution to the people of God. But the faithful servants of God need not fear the outcome of the conflict. If they will follow the pattern set for them in the life of Christ, if they will be true to the requirements of God, their reward will be eternal life, a life that measures with the life of God. {2SM 375.1}


I had no idea pastors and politicians are citing natural and manmade disasters as evidence God is upset because people are desecrating the Sunday. Actually, I’ve heard of obscure sources saying as much, the Special Alerts Charles Wheeling referenced back in the ‘80s, but even Evangelicals dismissed it as absurd. Do you know of any Headline News type of reports?

Mark, do you think Ellen White knew we would still be here 100 years after her passing? And, do you think these 100 years are accounted for in prophecy? If so, why did she continue to believe Jesus' return was imminent? Seems to me the next prophetic event she was waiting for was Sunday Laws. Next would follow the shaking, sealing, latter rain, loud cry, etc.

I agree -- that a deeper study of Daniel and Revelation will bring a great rival. But did you know that this deeper study is to give us "glimpses of heaven"?

It's not about trying to create all kinds of things that we think will happen in the future prior to the second coming. We already know there will be a time of trouble such as never was when the papal power unites with other religions, combines with spiritualism and using state power will persecute those who obey God rather then man.

What we need is getting those glimpses of heaven!



Read it --

When the books of Daniel and Revelation are better understood, believers will have an entirely different religious experience. They will be given such glimpses of the open gates of heaven that heart and mind will be impressed with the character that all must develop in order to realize the blessedness which is to be the reward of the pure in heart.

That's what we have been finding in our studies of Daniel and Revelation -- more and more glimpses into what Christ is doing in the heavenly sanctuary.

The thunders -- They are all about Christ's work in "finishing the mystery of God" -- finishing the redemption of the faithful, and bringing in eternal justice!

EGW in refering to them says

"Jesus Christ. Setting His right foot on the sea, and His left upon the dry land, shows the part which He is acting in the closing scenes of the great controversy with Satan. This position denotes His supreme power and authority over the whole earth. {1MR 99.2}

The great plan of redemption, as revealed in the closing work for these last days, should receive close examination. The scenes connected with the sanctuary above should make such an impression upon the minds and hearts of all that they may be able to impress others. All need to become more intelligent in regard to the work of the atonement, which is going on in the sanctuary above. When this grand truth is seen and understood, those who hold it will work in harmony with Christ to prepare a people to stand in the great day of God, and their efforts will be successful. --Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 575.

Maybe we should start a new thread on Sunday laws.
They are coming in by stealth, while satan keeps the saints sound asleep thinking they will give the three angels message in some future time.

Though I am not Mark,
your question raises some good points.

EGW believed Christ would come in her lifetime.
She never expected to get old and die.

All the pioneers firmly believed all the timelines were fulfilled and the next events would be the closing ones.

But did she see those closing events in the order you placed them.
Remember in 1888?
What event did she say was beginning?

She was expecting the latter rain, and even said it was beginning in 1888.
The Sunday issue was also showing signs of coming in.
The church was being shaken
It can happen all at once.

BUT back then -- it all stopped.

"Christ could have come ere this".

We aren't on a "timeline" anymore, we are on the eve of eternity.

I believe we need to experience and proclaim the truth about righteousness by faith and then all other events will follow in their train.

In order for our faith to be tested we must go through the end time events without a complete timeline and description, otherwise we would just mark time like at a airport and get on board (and let go of sin) when the time says Christ is 'on his way' to the docking station, please show your boarding pass (no fatith is needed)...

Richard, good point. God waits to announce the day and hour of Jesus' arrival until toward the end of the time of trouble.

Richard, do you think the seven thunders are unsealed? What about you MM?

My posting on time prophecies has been tentative and I have to apologize for leaning too much towards the possiblity of timing prophecies for the latter rain, close of probation etc. More recently though, my view is that time prophecies in Daniel and Revelation regarding the abomination of desolation in connection with the third angel's message are indeed in a time framework. Chist Himself urges us to study the prophecies of Daniel in that regard. In Daniel the abomination of desolation is linked to the 1260, 1290 and 1335 days. Since the termination of the 1335 days is 1843 even on the corrected chart we have good reason to keep an open mind on the topic - especially when we consider that God consistently has fortold the duration of persecution of His people historically.

I don't think the seven thunders were recorded. I also think they were fulfilled during the Millerite Movement. I don't think the time prophecies will be fulfilled again. I believe the next prophetic step is the NSL followed by the shaking, etc.

Seven thunders not recorded but fulfilled? Eugene Prewitt thinks the same. Dedication sees the weakness of putting the thunders in the past but not being able to point to seven descrete events. So Dedication has assigned events which are messages. If they are still sealed though, it's not wise to explain them because that would be adding to the words of the book.

Apparently, Dedication thinks that they're unsealed. Ellen White makes only one comment on them, and she doesn't explain them. Eugene and others think she does, applying the thunders to the Great Disappointment. Ellen White however applies the bitter after-taste of the sweet little book to the disappointment.

Mark, the angel told John not to record the seven thunders, right? However, Ellen says the Millerites experienced them during their movement, right?

That's the issue. Should we take Ellen White's statements as meaning the thunders were fulfilled?

I think so. However, is it possible the final generation will experience something similar (minus the error)?

Here's another obscure statement indicating that the seven seals that lock the contents of the scroll of Rev 5 are not unsealed yet. If the scroll is not unrolled can the seven thunders be unsealed?:

While Ellen White spoke highly of Smith's Daniel and the Revelation to the day of her death, it's clear that his book did not fulfill the need of the church for greater light. The above statement that "our own people need to have the light placed before them in clearer lines" was made more than 10 years after Daniel and the Revelation was published. Her plea to place the prophecies in clearer lines was also repeated to the day of her death and never fulfilled.

Referring to Haskell's work on Daniel she indicated his work also did not meet the need. The all-caps portion below is an editorial comment inserted by the White Estate to explain what Ellen White is referring to.

The White Estate insertion calls Haskell’s book on Daniel a "brief comment", but according to the prophet, it was not the "brief comment" Ellen White had in mind. And if his first volume didn't satisfy the need how could his second which followed the same format?

Since her death others have attempted to fulfill this need but in my view, it's never been done. Why? Because the subsequent books published by the denomination have all followed the same Smith/Haskell/Maxwell format - they repeat the same orthodoxy and don't let the 'obscure" SOP statements and scripture have their true weight.

More recently, Marian Berry published a book called Daniel and Revelation Bound Together and several other books on prophecy. The title of this first book is a paraphrase of Ellen White’s plea to the church and while it makes some progress towards placing the prophecies in their true end-time context, it also doesn’t meet the need. Dr. Franklin Fowler and his associates at Prophecy Research Institute have also published several books on prophecy. But in my view these also don’t meet the need. Whereas earlier authors stick to the orthodox view, the more recent ones who do see many of the end-time, primary applications tend to make the message time-dependant and inject their own views to such an extent that the "brief comments" specified by Ellen White become commentaries and undermine the force and simplicity of the message. These end time truths are simple and direct. Daniel and Revelation can interpret themselves with very little commentary.

The need that Ellen White saw will be met eventually. Who will do it? Maybe it’s being done now. The book she envisioned may be rolling off the press. Any book that does fulfill this need will be part of the Two Witnesses' testimony. In fulfillment of Habakkuk's prophesy, many who are searching for truth will see it and run with it:

Another similar statement is found on 5BC 1103.

Can I make a suggestion here?

We know that many events repeat in the future. For example, the three angels' messages were proclaimed in the 1840s. However, they will be proclaimed again. This time around, they will be proclaimed worldwide in the context of the latter rain and loud cry. Such a proclamation will be orders of magnitude beyond anything the world has ever seen.

We also know that future persecution will also go beyond what has happened in the past, including a universal death decree and the complete scattering of God's people.

If all of this is so, then it seems fair to ask what the primary fulfillment of a prophecy is. Is it past, or future?

There are cases where EGW says that the past fulfillment is only a shadow of the future. For example, in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, she says this:





If the worldwide proclamation of the three angels' messages during the loud cry period is yet future, and the seven thunders relate to events that occur during this time (1MR 99), then why can't the seven thunders be as yet partially sealed?

By "partially sealed" I mean that the events represented by the seven thunders will be repeated, and the previous occurrence is "shadowy" or vague, just as the quotes above suggest in another context.

A related point here is whether the Bible prophecies were primarily aimed at past generations, or at the final generation presumably living today.

Note for example this quote:

My pertinent studies on the Seven Thunders (as the relate to the eschatological fullfillment of Ezekiel’s prophecies) and the “Unrolling of (relatedly) the Rev 10=Rev5=Dan 11=prophecies of Ezekiel Scroll) should be helpful in this discussion.

Good point Glen. The scroll is partially unsealed now and so are the trumpets. But if the trumpets 'relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order' as Ellen White says, then we have to wait and see what additional information we'll understand about them and the mark of the beast when the scroll is unrolled further in the future.

There have been people who have put forward lists of events corresponding to the seven thunders in the 1840s. But there's no consensus on what those events were.

The same is true in other areas. For example, among SDA commentators who hold to a standard view of the historical trumpets, there is no consensus on the first trumpet. Some would say that it refers to Alaric around 396 A.D., and others say that it depicts the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

I think we have to ask a very hard question about just what the primary fulfillment of a prophecy really is. This principle cuts across a lot of the prophecies that we consider.

For example, we know that Joel 2:28-32 was fulfilled in the past, and will have another, infinitely larger, fulfillment in the future.

If one fulfillment is a shadow of a larger fulfillment yet to come, then we might be mislead if we focus primarily on the shadow.

Correction on my last post - I meant thunders not trumpets.

Yes, the shaddow or initial fulfillment may be substantially different from the primary/end-time application. I used to think of the initial fulfillment as a kind of template for the final; but if the initial is symbolic and the final is literal, the two are necessarily going to be substantially different. But studying the initial fulfillment is still very helpful.

I've been looking into this more - whether the thunders are sealed. How about this: Some have suggested they were sealed during the Millerite movement. God placed his hand over part of the prophecies so that Adventists did not understand certain parts, but after the disappointment His hand has been removed. What do the rest of you think? Now that God's hand is removed can we understand the thunders.

I tend to think the seals and thunders work along similar lines and may cover the same issues. We won't understand the seals fully until they are unlocked and the same applies to the thunders but probably to a greater extent. With the seals we have quite a bit of description, with the thunders we have nothing at all. If we knew it all, we'd be deprived of a faith experience.

I think I may be wrong in the above bolded statement. The little book that's open in the hand of the angel may contain the thunders. Adventists generally agree the little book is composed of Daniel 7-12.

Mark, it seems fairly clear Ellen was shown the "little book" and the "seven thunders" are synonymous and was fulfilled during the first and second angels' messages between 1842 and 1844.

In the statement below, she equates the little book to the sealed portion of Daniel's prophecies:

Isn't she referring to the whole of the Revelation and not just the "little book"? Here's the larger context of your quote:


In this statement and the following one she makes her point pretty clear:


The seven thunders pertained particularly to events that transpired during the Millerite proclamation of the first and second angels' messages between 1842 and 1844. And, yes, obviously these messages were based primarily on the prophecies of Daniel, especially the time prophecies.