Study Notes On Evolution

How Old Is The Earth?

Lately, I have had some people put forth to me the idea that the earth is older than 6000 years. The first text they use to “prove” their point, is Gen.1:2

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

People are saying that since creation is usually dated from about six thousand years ago, then many of us have been wrong for all these years, in saying that the earth is only six thousand years old. The text says; “In the beginning,” the earth was without form and void…meaning, they say, the earth had actually been in existence, before creation day one, but, “without form and void.”

Does this line of thought give strength to the theory of evolution, or, does it strengthen the case for Biblical creation of the earth, about six thousand years ago, taking seven literal days?

COL.415.001
“ When "the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep," "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”

What happened on the earth during this time of being “without form and void?” Can we say the earth was “created" in this instance, at the point of being “without form and void?” Why would God have an earth “without form and void?” Does the Bible, or SOP, lend any credence to the assertion, that this means the earth is more than 6000 years old?

Let us look at one, brief example, to make my next point:

CT.467.002
“Never has the world's need for teaching and healing been greater than it is today. The world is full of those who need to be ministered unto--the weak, the helpless, the ignorant, the degraded. The continual transgression of man for nearly six thousand years has brought sickness, pain, and death as its fruit. Multitudes are perishing for lack of knowledge.”

There are 47 similar references in SOP to “six thousand years," and while I have not yet examined all of them; so far, they all seem to suggest in some way, that, yes, the human race has been in existence for about six thousand years; but I do not yet see any real evidence to definitely say the earth is more than six thousand years old.

Where does Ellen White get her evidence for the figure of six thousand? Does it really matter for some reason, what we believe, on this point?

I have also heard some strange new twistings regarding black holes, and the possibility of moving backwards in time, or forward in time...might be interesting to see how this affects the age of the earth, but that is likely a separate topic.

(maybe, it would be connected somehow to accretion disc proximity variants, to the surface of black holes?)

Okay...Let's just talk about the Earth without form and void thing....

[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

I too believe that our planet existed, created long ago by God, in a state of raw material consisting of stone and water until 6,000 years ago when God spoke them into new forms of existence. Actually I go along with the first edition of the SDA Bible Commentary where they give a creation date of 3957 BC.

The age of the earth cannot be accurately determined with scientific dating methods. Why? Because we do not have any eye witness, or recorded data of the actual changes that occurred to the earth's surface, or to the chemical components and cycles of matter, in the long distant past. Without adequate data, all "testing" is tentative and subject to error.

Evolutionists have had to change their figures time and time again as new data emerged. Their biggest problem is thinking "all things continued as they naturally do today" when in reality, what is now may have been very different at various stages of earth's history.

Creationists understand the limitations of these dating methods better because they believe the Biblical record that at least one major world wide catastrophe took place that altered much of the earth's surface and could easily do in a short time processes which take a long time under more normal conditions.

Creationists ultimately date the earth using the chronology of the Bible. After all, there were eye witnesses of creation -- In the beginning God -- and His angel's shouted for joy as they saw the works of His hands! (Gen 1:1; Job 38:7)
Creationists believe the Bible is not just the ramblings of what historic people thought, but that the Bible is the inspired word fo God. Thus they believe that this is an accurate eyewitness account of world history.

And there are scientists who can show the Biblical account can be matched with much of the available data.

Interesting question!

But first -- in answering we are moving into the realm of uncertainty, even though texts and quotes will be used, it is not definite "proof" -- just a "maybe this is the way it was".

So MAYBE this is what happened, and I'm not the only one who has thought it might possibly be true.

What was going on in the courts of heaven as plans were being laid to create this earth?

"Christ was to work in union with God the Father in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon it.... Satan was jealous and envious of Jesus Christ. ...his heart was filled with envy and hatred. Christ had been taken into counsel with the Father in regard to his plans, while Satan was unacquainted with them." {ST, January 9, 1879 par. 2}

So part of Satan's jealousy and hatred was directly related to Christ and the Father laying plans to create this world.

"The loyal angels hasten speedily to the Son of God, and acquaint him with what is taking place among the angels. They find the Father in conference with his beloved Son, to determine the means by which, for the best good of the loyal angels, the assumed authority of Satan could be forever put down. The great God could at once have hurled this arch deceiver from heaven; but this was not his purpose. He would give the rebellious an equal chance to measure strength and might with his Son and his loyal angels. In this battle every angel would choose his own side, and his character and purposes would be manifested to all."

So a time of matching strength with strength was given.
One of the major issues was the creation of this earth.

Genesis 1:1 states "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
It doesn't give us any time frame there ---

In Isaiah 45:18 we read:
God himself that formed the earth and made it; he has established it, he created it not "tohuw".

"tohuw" means "without form" a "wasteland".
It's the very same word used in Genesis 1:2

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was "tohuw" and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

That is interesting. God did NOT created the earth without form, yet in Genesis 1:2 we find the earth "without form".

Did something happen between Genesis verse 1 and Genesis verse 2 that isn't mentioned in this chapter?

God makes everything perfect as soon as He creates anything (James 1:17). So it seems reasonable that the earth was created perfect, but then became "tohuw" or formless and void.

The word translated "was" in Genesis 1:2:
"And the earth was without form and void" is the Hebrew word "hayah", which can also be translated as "became".
We can see it translated as "became" in Genesis 2:7,"man became (hayah) a living soul" (Gen. 2:7)


Summary thus far:
Part of Satan's jealousy and hatred was directly related to Christ and the Father laying plans to create this world.

A time of matching strength (of Christ) with strength (of Lucifer) was given prior to Lucifer's expulsion.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Gen. 1:1
It doesn't give us any time frame there ---

God himself that formed the earth and made it; he has established it, he created it not "tohuw" . Isaiah 45:18
He did not create earth without form and void.

And the earth became "tohuw" and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. Genesis 1:2




To be continued

So what happened between verse 1 and 2 of Genesis.

Verse one speaks of the very beginning of creation.
God creates the heavens and the earth.

This would include far more than what we see in the six days of creation, which concern themselves with the creation of this earth and the surrounding objects of it's solar system.

It would include the creation of the angels and their heavenly home. The angel's were already in existence when the six day creation took place. Satan was already fallen and appears as such in chapter three of Genesis.

So it seems plausible that the creation of the angels in their heavenly realm took place between verse 1 and 2.
The rebellion of the angels and the big "show down" or "war" took place between verse 1 and 2.

Could it be that the apparent "chaos" and "tohuw" (without form and void) conditions in space as well as the condition of this earth prior to the six days -- were the result of the first ever WAR?

Could Satan have deliberately tried to destroy Christ's creative works in defiance and a "show of strength"?

Like -- why are there tens of thousands tiny planets called asteroids orbiting in the main asteroid belt, a vast doughnut-shaped ring between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter? An exploded planet?
And if those are now "mini planets" without form and void, maybe our earth was at one point much larger, and this is only a fragment of that explosion.

Of course we are entirely in speculating now -- but then some have wondered how the New Jerusalem (which would cover much of the USA in size and is as high as it is wide) could ever fit on this planet without totally knocking it out of its orbit. But maybe -- the "new earth" will have all it's pieces put back together and be much larger than it is now?

Just food for thought.
There are a lot of things about our earth we do not know.

This does magnify the Great Controversy to proportions far beyond the narrow view often placed upon it.


It also makes one wonder if Satan, who was so jealous when creation of this earth was being planned, may now have invented evolution theories, using the evidences of his war against the Creator, to claim that he actually did create this earth?

Very likely chaos set in from the war because of sin between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

And from EGW's quote, Christ was the Son of God before creation week.

Dedication, careful.

Some use your same reasoning to say God created the earth, satan ruined it, so He created it again. Guess trying to get it right. They conclude this is why the Sabbath starts at sunrise instead of sunset. And if you allow those multiple creations, then starting in Genesis 2:4, following the same reasoning, you'd have to allow yet another creation.

Question: Was the moon created without form? What about Mars and the rest of the planets?

Why could not verse 1 be considered a summary of the chapter?

Good questions.
As I said -- this topic does explore rather unknown waters.
But, just accepting verse one as a summary of the chapter, leaves a lot of unanswered questions.

1st-- the earth was already there BEFORE the creative acts of day one.
2nd -- there was already a lot of life in the universe before the creative acts of "day 1" -- there were angels, there was the angels' abode in heaven, the whole rebellion of Satan and his angelic followers took place BEFORE day one of creation.
These things are revealed in scripture and especially in EGW's writings.

Another question -- why is there what appears to be an exploded planet orbiting between Mars and Jupiter?

Yes, why are there planets orbiting the sun that are totally uninhabitable?

Why are Earth, Mars, and Earth's moon composed of similar substances, while planets like Venus are totally different?


Also why would you automatically think God fully created the earth prior to the Genesis account? And why would you say, if Satan ruined things, that the first creation wasn't "right"?


Remember the quotes I gave --
God the Father and Christ the Son were making plans to create the world. Satan was extremely jealous he wasn't included and started a propaganda campaign for himself amongst the angels.

God and Christ decided they would allow show of "strength against strength" in which all the angels could take sides.

So what if (and yes it is IF) God created the solar system containing earth. In it the earth was much larger than it is now -- and it was rotating around a bright sun. I do not believe that mankind was yet created -- but everything was ready.

Then came the "war" between Christ and His angels and Satan and his angels. That war wasn't just some angels with primitive swords pushing each other around, it was a COSMIC war, with energy weapons earthlings haven't even yet discovered, and earthlings have discovered some pretty high energy stuff.

The war caused heavy destruction in the universe, and this earth received its measure of Satan's wrath. The sun went out, planets crashed into each other. Earth was shattered and blown apart -- pieces flying everywhere -- one of those pieces is now the moon.

When the war was over -- the earth was without form and void

Ever wonder how earth could have existed without the gravitational pull of the sun to keep it in orbit? The sun was already there -- but dark.
It had gone out during the war.

So, after the war, Father and Son go back to their plan of creating the world. First turning it into a livable planet/ Then fixing the sun on the fourth day.
Then finally, creating the life forms upon the earth.

It doesn't change the creation story.
It doesn't change God's counting "evening" and then "morning" comprising a day.

Nor does it in the least bit change the Sabbath.







There are a lot more questions as well -- like why is their considerable chaos in the universe? For example: two terrestrial planets orbiting a mature sun-like star some 300 light-years from Earth recently suffered a violent collision, according to astronomers at UCLA, Tennessee State University and the California Institute of Technology.

Very interesting date. Has the SDA Commentary stopped publishing a date?

People have long been trying to find the dates.
The Bible gives genealogies, yet there is enough vagueness there to keep people from arriving at an absolute date.
I don't believe the SDA church stands behind any precise date for creation.



What is fairly plain by adding together all the genealogies, is that time from creation to Jesus birth was about 4000 years.

But the actual starting date varies:
Here's just a list that have been considered:

Chronologist -- Calculated -- Date of Earth's Beginnings
H. Spondanus..... 1600......... 4051
Martin Anstey... 1913........... 4042
W. Lange......................... 4041
E. Reinholt...................... 4021
J. Cappellus......1600.......... 4005
E. Greswell..... 1830.......... 4004
E. Faulstich.... 1986.......... 4001
D. Petavius.......1627.......... 3983
Frank Klassen... 1975.......... 3975
Becke............................... 3974
Krentzeim..........................3971
W. Dolen........ 2003........... 3971
E. Reusnerus.......................3970
J. Claverius .......................3968
C. Longomontanus...1600......... 3966
P. Melanchthon.... 1550......... 3964
J. Haynlinus .......................3963
A. Salmeron ........1585.......... 3958
J. Scaliger.........1609........... 3949
M. Beroaldus........1575.......... 3927
A. Helwigius .......1630.......... 3836

If you follow the Septuagint text instead of the Masoretic text the date will be different. The Septuagint added a hundred years to all the pre-flood patriarchs -- Adam 230 years of age at birth of Seth, rather than 130 years -- etc.
Then you end up with over 5000 years before Christ.


I think the date Mountain Man (and the BCommentary) used is based on the Jewish Calendar --

Christ Jesus was born in what we, today, call 4 BC --- In the Jewish year 3758

No problem there. Do you think there's a problem with that and the first verse being a summary?

Interesting questions, but not sure why they're relevant. There's a lot more planets than around our sun uninhabitable. In fact, other than our earth, we know of none that are other than what inspiration has told us.

Tom had raised some questions which it sounds like you are hinting at: Why destructive things in the universe.

Consider a cell. Things are continually being torn down and built up. Recycled. And yet we consider that miraculous life happening. Why cannot the universe works that way on a larger scale?

Um... because the Genesis account was the last created? And because scripture tells us. Before God did anything in the Genesis account,
the earth was.
It was already in existence.

Maybe I wasn't clear on that. Considering that our life currently was "right" as God didn't wipe it out and reset it, then what you suggest, wasn't "right", and He wiped it out to attempt it again.

Yes, create the world. Or "earth". Depends upon what is meant. The definition given in Genesis? Terra firma? (covered under water). Or a definition of what our world means to life? Mars is nothing. Just a hunk of rock. But if God created life on it, would that not be creation of Mars? I wouldn't base your religion on an ambiguous definition of what creating our world means.

Not sure why it had to be "much larger". But other than that, I believe He did create the solar system containing earth prior to the Genesis creation.

Sounds like a great movie! But you're personifying spiritual warfare. Creating science fiction attributes onto angels.

Before you create something, it is without form and void.

Why assume the earth was there without the sun? Unnecessary speculation.

So a reset. A redo. Because He didn't get it right the first time? This time He did it "right" by being able to protect it unlike the first time?

I agree with that. But they're using the same reasoning you are. And they say since there was no sun, then the first thing created was light. It removed satan's darkness, satan's "without form and void". So therefore, the Sabbath begins at sunrise.

I prefer to go with, "And the evening and the morning were the first day." And many other places indicating the day begins and ends at sunset.


And your cellular mechanisms just engulfed another component....

Earlier you asked "Why could not verse 1 be considered a summary of the chapter?"
To me it goes back a lot further than what is presented in the rest of the first chapter.

In the beginning God created....
those words parallel John 1
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God...All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The verses take us back into infinity to confirm all things had their origin in God.





Why ?
Because it makes the universe a scary, unreliable place. It's acting just like things here on earth, and I'm wondering why?
We take the cycles of life and death for granted.
The old decays, the new is born, it grows old, dies or is destroyed, new things replace it and so on and on.
We live in such a "throw away" society we can't even comprehend an existence where nothing dies.

EGW mentions that for Adam "every dying leaf...was a fresh reminder of his sin." AH 540. And in Early Writings page 18 she mentions that flowers picked in heaven will never fade.

So the example of life-death-life-death cycles in a world of sin really doesn't explain what God's perfect creation is like.

Yet, the universe is showing signs of acting according to the cycles of sin, not the standard of perfection.







Exactly my point.
And scripture says:

In Isaiah 45:18 we read:
God himself that formed the earth and made it; he has established it, he created it not "tohuw" (a wasteland).

"tohuw" means "without form" a "wasteland".
It's the very same word used in Genesis 1:2

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was "tohuw" and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

So God did NOT created the earth "tohuw" without form, yet in Genesis 1:2 we find the earth "tohuw" without form.



Still find your response here confusing.
God creates the planet, making it ready for further creation.
There is no "attempting" here, God knows what He is doing.
In the meantime, in heaven there is a big rebellion led by a very jealous high ranking angel, who thinks it is unfair that he isn't part of the creating team.

God allows satan to fully measure and demonstrate His power against God. A cosmic war breaks out!
Using high energy weapons they dislodge planets from their orbits. The planet Thaia was sent on a headlong collision with planet earth. The result was a tremendous crash, with pieces flying everywhere.

In recent years, researchers analyzed seven rocks brought to the Earth from the moon by the Apollo 12, 15 and 17 missions. The fact that oxygen in rocks on the Earth and our moon share chemical signatures was very telling -- the moon seems to be a piece broken off from planet earth.

After such a collision -- earth indeed would have been "tohuw". And that "tohuw" was not God's doing.


After causing damage in other parts of God's universe, fully revealing their intents and character, satan and his angels were restrained.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.







I thought I made it quite plain that this was NOT a subject of dogmatic certainty.

My religion is based upon Jesus Christ, and I know He created everything perfectly, and will again make a "new heaven" and a "new earth", totally remaking not only this planet, but also "remaking" the "heavens".

Just what happened back there is speculation -- but I do believe something happened.
The great controversy is far bigger than we like to think in our narrow finite minds.

So back to "what might have been"

Mars is not just a hunk of rock. It has some baffling things about it that suggests it was part of the "war".
Like Earth, Mars has a North and South Pole. But while Earth's polar ice caps consist solely of water ice, Mars' polar caps are a combination of water ice and carbon dioxide ice.

At present, conditions on Mars do not allow for liquid water, however, geologic evidence indicate their was water in the past --water includes enormous outflow channels carved by floods, ancient river valley networks, deltas, and lakebeds; and the detection of rocks and minerals on the surface that could only have formed in liquid water.

Mars is a riddle --
Was it part of the creation that was destroyed during the war?



But you agreed the planet was created BEFORE the creation week.
Isaiah 45:18 tells us God did NOT create without form and void.
Yet, there it was in Gen. 1:2 -- a shapeless mass, covered by water.


Those who don't believe any creation took place prior to the six days, assume the sun did not exist prior to the fourth day. So no, it's not "unnecessary speculation" for many believe such.
In fact -- my question challenges that assumption.



HMMMMM???? -- NO! God did it right the first time.

The Father in conference with his beloved Son, to determine the means by which, for the best good of the loyal angels, the assumed authority of Satan could be forever put down. The great God could at once have hurled this arch deceiver from heaven; but this was not his purpose. He would give the rebellious an equal chance to measure strength and might with his Son and his loyal angels. In this battle every angel would choose his own side, and his character and purposes would be manifested to all."{SR 17.1}

Before putting satan and his angels on a "leash" or in "bounds", greatly limiting their range of activity, God first allowed them to demonstrate and manifest their character and purposes to all.

They demonstrated it by destroying much of God's creation!

Your reasoning would say God still didn't get it right, because He still allows sin to demonstrate and manifest the ravishes of sin. His creation is still being destroyed by sin.

And yes -- a great "reset", if that's what you want to call it, is soon to come! And how we look forward to it!!!!
God will make a "new heaven" and a "new earth", and sin will be no more.

No, I doubt they are using the "same reasoning" as I am. I see no connection what-so-ever.

God creating "light" is not "sunrise".
The sun didn't "rise" and shine until the fourth day.
They are spiritualizing away "without form and void" when it is an actual condition of planet earth at the time. The light didn't change that.
The form took shape on the second day, not the first.

Also, anyone who wants to ignore a plain "thus says the Lord" as to when the Sabbath begins, can come up with anything.

From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. Lev. 23:32

That's plain enough!

Creation account makes it very plain that EVENING and then MORNING = a day, the seventh day would be no different.


Are we to ignore the beginnings of the Great Controversy, and close down our minds, because some little group has some false assumptions?

They say that earth was created in verse 1, satan messed it up, and then God created it again.

Do you agree or disagree with them on that reasoning?


(By the way, by you using Lev 23:32 plays right into their trap. It is not about the weekly Sabbath. We must not give reason for detractors to criticize us. Say, like the festival sabbath ending at sunset, our weekly Sabbath does also.)

Not just the earth was created in verse one -- but heaven and angels and a lot of things! I believe God created a perfect universe ages before the six day creation of this earth.

You even agreed with me -- that earth was already there before the six day creation.

You even seemed to imply the sun was already shining before the six day creation, but then why would God create the sun on day four?

The sun had gone out.

It all adds up to realizing there was a great cosmic war (not just a spiritual war) but a real, and violent war, that God allowed Satan to wage, in which he showed his true ambitions and character, and every angel had to choose to be on one side or the other.

Earth's creation was not finished in verse one --
but Earth was not void and formless either prior to the war -- as we read in Isaiah -- God did not create it without form and void.

It's creation was begun, but not completed prior to the war -- there weren't any people created yet.

Yes, I believe Satan messed up a lot of things that God has created --
INCLUDING THE SABBATH.

No, I don't agree with your opponents view. And I really don't care what they believe -- as their Sabbath hours are not biblical, and they've made something out of that war that isn't substantiated in scripture or prophecy.

But your contributions to this subject are frustrating --
It's like saying --
Don't talk about Jesus resurrection because so many people base their Sunday keeping believing Christ rose Sunday morning.

It's kind of like saying -- change the resurrection to Saturday night (yes, there are some people that do that) -- but that doesn't make it correct. We don't go ignoring things just because some group built a false doctrine from a limited part of it?

One thing that I find interesting in this --

Satan is the author of war and chaos
God is the perfect Creator of beauty and goodness

The Great Controversy begins with a great war. At that point Lucifer (Satan) still had access to whole universe. The angels were not "bound" or "restrained" by anything as all was harmony and the goodness of God filled every mind and heart in God's universe prior to sin.

When the evil seeds of sin started sprouting in Lucifers mind no one knew what sin was or what it was like.
Satan's strategy was telling the angels he would make things even better for them. The growing hatred that jealousy was breeding wasn't readily discerned by the angels.

God could have hurled Lucifer from heaven and bound him to an uninhabited planet somewhere. But that would not have answered the questions rising in the minds of countless angels.



War! And how the true character of Satan was manifested as he went like a cyclone destroying God's creative works! Of special hatred was this area of the universe, where God was planning to create "mankind".
In rage Satan tries to destroy it.

But Christ and His angels prevail. Satan and his angels are bound -- restrained and "put out into the deep" whatever that means.
But the demons, during Christ's time on earth, greatly feared the power of Christ, begging Him not to "torment them" before the time, and not to send them back out into the deep.

Also we read: "Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Notice those angels LEFT (they weren't kicked out) they left -- where did they go? They joined Lucifer in the great war to wreck havoc on God's creative works in the universe as well as on the earth. And now they are "chained".


It appears, looking at EGW's writings as well, that Satan and his angels were not allowed free reign to go anywhere, after the war, but on each inhabited planet they had access to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. As long as the inhabitants of that world refused it's fruit, satan could not have access to that planet.


Since Christ's death on the cross, the unfallen angels have no more doubts as to the character of satan. They saw him, and fought against him as he rampaged through God's creative works to destroy it. But when they saw satan killing Christ, the One Who gave him life, his character and intents were fully revealed.

There will be one more great show down!
After the millennium when the city of God with the saved descend to earth, Satan, along with the multitudes of resurrected unsaved will again arm up for war. They will have weapons which, without godly interference, would easily annihilate the city. And so, confidently they approach the city.
Once again it will be clearly manifested what their real intentions and characters are like.

The satanic hatred against God and His law, was fully manifested.

1. Prior to creation, in the cosmic war they demonstrated their hatred of God, before satan and his angels were bound and restrained. After the war there was still limited travel in the universe, as we see in the story of Job.

2. When Christ lived on earth -- satan and his followers, both human and fallen angels, literally killed Him.
After this, satan and his angels were quarantined to this earth, and even here their power is limited -- though it is being unleashed as mankind deny God Who alone can save them.


3. After the millennium, before all evil and evil doers are utterly destroyed, they are again allowed to manifest their true intent and character. And what do they do? WAR! They attempt to conquer the New Jerusalem and pull God off His throne!!!

We like to play down these events --
But there is nothing minor, or little about them.

Sins great purpose is to destroy God and all God stands for and does.


Back in creation

No wonder the angels rejoiced and shouted for joy when God created this earth!
The contrast was so great --
Satan rampaging in destructive fury through God's creation.
BUT God ---
He is far stronger and greater than Satan.
The beautiful finished work of creating this earth brought forth a shout of victory from the angels.

But what agony filled heaven -- when satan gained control of this world when Adam and Eve listened to him in that tree, and opened the flood gates of evil to fill this world.

The war between the angels continues as God sends His heavenly host of angels to restrain the full wrath of the fallen angels.


The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them. Psalm 34:7. {HP 98.1}




If the curtain could be rolled back, and each one could discern the constant activities of the heavenly family to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from Satan's seductive wiles, lest in their careless attitude they should be led astray through satanic strategy, they would lose a large degree of their self-confidence and self-assurance. They would see that the armies of heaven are in continual warfare with satanic agencies, to obtain victories in behalf of those who do not sense their danger, and who are passing on in unconscious indifference. {HP 98.2}




Angels are belting the world, refusing Satan his claims to supremacy, made because of the vast multitude of his adherents. We hear not the voices, we see not with the natural sight the work of these angels, but their hands are linked about the world, and with sleepless vigilance they are keeping the armies of Satan at bay till the sealing of God's people shall be accomplished. {HP 98.3}




The ministers of Jehovah, angels have skill and power and great strength, being commissioned to go forth from heaven to earth to minister to His people. They are given the work of keeping back the raging power of him who has come down like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. {HP 98.4}



When we surrender all we have and are to God, and are placed in trying and dangerous positions, coming in contact with Satan, we should remember that we shall have victory in meeting the enemy in the name and power of the Conqueror. Every angel would be commissioned to come to our rescue, when we thus depend upon Christ, rather than that we should be permitted to be overcome. But we need not expect to get the victory without suffering; for Jesus suffered in conquering for us. {HP 98.5}




The angels of God are communicating with and guarding His people, and are pressing back the powers of darkness that they shall not have any control over those who shall be heirs of salvation. Are we working in harmony with the angels? This is the line of communication the Lord has established with the children of men. {HP 98.6}

My Bible doesn't say he created the sun on day four. Read the verse, list the verse, tell me why I would say that.

Genesis 1:1 is a summary of all God's creative works prior to the six day creation. All God's creation is perfect!
Something happened between verse 1 and 2 that had brought "tohuw" (chaos-- destruction) for the earth was there but it was "tohuw" (without form and void).
During the six days of creation God made this earth the beautiful, perfect home of mankind.

To summarize --


You had written -- basically agreeing that the earth was already in existence before the six day creation, and implying the sun was there as well.






Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night:

God didn't have to create the sun since it was probably already there -- but He did have to give it LIGHT, He made it into a great light on day four, it didn't have any light on day one, it was dark. The first three days the only light was the presence of God's light -- but on the fourth day scripture tells us the sun once again became the great light to rule the day, and the lesser light (the moon) ruled the night.

I say it's a summary of what the chapter is. Otherwise, what do you do with 2:4, and chapter 5? Compare how the author wrote the other parts and then compare that with verse 1. No use inferring what is not there.

If you have access to the SDA commentary, read it what it says for verse 1 about the false ruin and restoration theory and the 2 statements the verse makes and questions we can answer; and verse 2, and the additional note at the end of the chapter. Anything else is wild speculation.

How does what they are cautioning against compare or not compare with what you're suggesting?

Sounds like the ruin and restoration theory. Speculation on what the Bible doesn't say.
Reading the rest of the chapter, you know it wasn't perfect. He kept on creating. You have to start somewhere.

I'm sending you a private link so it doesn't bring more attention to false people. Read it and see how it compares or not to your thoughts. See were it's leading. You need to be very discerning....




Consider:

And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night:

God made the greater light to rule the day.
He made the 8-ball go in the corner pocket.

Would you agree the sentence structure or form is the same.

You're saying God made the noun. The sentence says He made the verb. I agree He 'could' have made the noun at that point, but the sentence doesn't mean it. Leave it as it reads, without speculating about multiple creations. Otherwise, you are saying it wasn't perfect. (I know you disagree, but consider the link)

Don't read into the Bible what is not there.
I agree with the commentary. I don't know when God made the earth. The earth existed before creation. Keep in mind, there is an interchange of the wording of creating earth and creating life on earth. God created both. But don't speculate where we have no information of such. Take the Bible as it reads.

Maybe you are erasing things in the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy that ARE there?

Do you believe there was a literal war before the six day creation?

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

" Lucifer in heaven, before his rebellion, was a high and exalted angel...
Christ, God's dear Son, had the pre-eminence over all the angelic host. He was one with the Father before the angels were created. Lucifer was envious of Christ, and gradually assumed command which devolved on Christ alone.....

The Father then made known that it was ordained by Himself that Christ, His Son,... would work in union with God the Father, in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. {SR 13.2}
Lucifer was envious and jealous of Jesus Christ....
He left the immediate presence of the Father, dissatisfied and filled with envy against Jesus Christ. Concealing his real purposes, he assembled the angelic host....
There was contention among the angels....

The loyal angels hastened speedily to the Son of God and acquainted Him with what was taking place among the angels. They found the Father in conference with His beloved Son, to determine the means by which, for the best good of the loyal angels, the assumed authority of Satan could be forever put down. The great God could at once have hurled this archdeceiver from heaven; but this was not His purpose. He would give the rebellious an equal chance to measure strength and might with His own Son and His loyal angels. In this battle every angel would choose his own side and be manifested to all.....

All heaven seemed in commotion. The angels were marshaled in companies, each division with a higher commanding angel at its head. Satan was warring against the law of God, because ambitious to exalt himself and unwilling to submit to the authority of God's Son, heaven's great commander. {SR 17.2}

All the heavenly host were summoned to appear before the Father,...
God informed Satan that he (Satan) had proved himself unworthy of a place in heaven. Then Satan exultingly pointed to his sympathizers, comprising nearly one half of all the angels, and exclaimed, "These are with me! Will you expel these also, and make such a void in heaven?" He then declared that he was prepared to resist the authority of Christ and to defend his place in heaven by force of might, strength against strength. {SR 18.1}

Then there was war in heaven. The Son of God, the Prince of heaven, and His loyal angels engaged in conflict with the archrebel and those who united with him. The Son of God and true, loyal angels prevailed; and Satan and his sympathizers were expelled from heaven. All the heavenly host acknowledged and adored the God of justice. Not a taint of rebellion was left in heaven.

Genesis 2:4 and onward is going over the same history again, as chapter one, adding a few more details.

Genesis five recounts the creation, then gives the genealogy of Adam's descendants.





Many, many years ago, I turned to the SDA Bible Commentary in a study of Daniel and the Sanctuary Doctrine. I found the commentary utterly confusing. No wonder Ford was so successful in denouncing the sanctuary doctrine. Thankfully, others showed better understanding and greatly helped me see the truth.

But I've never felt much confidence in the commentary since.

But back to the subject at hand --

The SDA commentary's "ruin and restore" theory is very different from what I have been presenting.
And no, I do not believe in THEIR theory.

I do not believe that God created an imperfect world, doing a poor job and it all fell apart due to catastrophic forces of nature over which God had no control.

In fact what I believe is the very OPPOSITE.
I believe God created a perfect universe in which catastrophic destruction was NOT occurring. So why would I even suggest the earth suffered ruin by natural catastrophic forces prior to the six days of creation?????
That's definitely NOT what I'm presenting.

Rather it's those that deny that a war waged by a very rebellious, powerful host of fallen angels, led by Satan, caused the catastrophic events we now view in the universe, who are the ones thinking God created an imperfect universe filled with catastrophic happenings.

Nor do I deny that God "spoke and it was done"!
Everything that was, He spoke into existence, including this earth and the whole solar system. Just because the actual earth was spoken into existence prior to the six days, does not deny the truth that it was spoken into existence.

However -- I believe it was spoken into existence in a perfect state, it was not "without form and void", but ready for God to create life upon it.

The destructive forces that have caused ruin are the result of sin. The sin and rebellion of fallen angels have left their mark on the universe, and the sin and rebellion of fallen humans are even now destroying the earth.

As far as anything being beyond God's control. That's also VERY false. EGW plainly tells us God ALLOWED the demonstration of strength against strength so the character of the rebellious angels would be manifest for all to see.

But then satan and his angels were restricted. They are no match for the power God!!!






No, God didn't have to start with an imperfect world.
I fully believe He speaks and perfection emerges.

But yes -- the Bible does show God started with an imperfect earth that was "without form, void", and "dark".

Why?
No -- it was not due to some "natural" catastrophic event over which God had no control ---

God was fully in control -- allowing the manifestation of the destructive character of Satan and his fallen angels rebellion. It also showed the superior strength of Christ and His angels who utterly defeated and restricted them, casting them out of heaven.



---

As for your comments on the "sun" --
They are simply confusing -- I have no idea what you are talking about.

Every time scripture uses the word "made" in Genesis 1, it is an act of creation.

Are you denying that God created the sun, or that He ignited it on the fourth day?

The Bible is plain --
It was dark on day one of creation.
If it was DARK that means there was no sun bringing light to it.

The only light was the light of God's presence.
He did not ignite it on day one.

Day four
God spoke lights into existence.
" Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night;"
One great light (the sun) to rule the day
One lesser light (the moon) for at night.

And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Now when God created the heaven and earth (the universe) prior to the six days, the sun and earth were included -- for the earth was there prior to the six days of creation. But there was NOT light from the sun -- it was dark.

But when God spoke, on the fourth day, it blazed into the brilliant, fiery sun that is so important for life on earth.

Yes. Why do you ask this, why do you think this is relevant?
You keep emphasizing "natural" catastrophe. I made no classification of natural or not natural.


And what period of time was this in reference to?

But yet you just said it took 6 days. Please resolve this.

Because it is what I've been talking about all along, and you are arguing against it.



You were trying to link what I wrote to what the SDA Bible commentary wrote against, and inferring that I was presenting what they were against.

They were against a theory that the earth was destroyed by natural catastrophe that God had no control over.

But I never presented any such thing.






The war that I'm referring to --
which I have quoted huge portions of EGW passages to illustrate,
took place AFTER God and Christ made the plans to create earth. Satan became exceedingly jealous, and rebelled, denouncing Christ, and denying Him as being superior to himself.

The war took place BEFORE the six day creation.





Everything God did was perfect.
A perfect atmosphere
Perfect land covered with perfect vegetation
Perfect birds, fish, animals, people

The world was NOT perfect when He approached it. It was in a state of chaos. Even if God had not yet created life on earth prior to the six days, He still had NOT created it in a chaotic state.
In Genesis 1:2 we find the earth already present, and it was described in the same way as the world is described in the first verses of Revelation 20 -- The earth will again be "without form and void." So the term here means the chaotic earth after Satan has defaced the work of creation.

Soon the earth will be in that chaotic state again for a 1000 years, then God will again create a perfect earth and perfect heaven (universe).


Do you believe God created all the chaos we see in the universe now?
Do you think God existed within a universal abyss of chaos, that He Himself had created?
I don't.

I believe God created an orderly universe. A universe that was friendly to development and habitation. Not one where planets collide, explode, get demolished with meteorites hitting them, of suns burning out, or exploding. There is a lot of chaos in the universe.

Yes, I believe there was a cosmic war --
a large host of powerful angels, led by Lucifer, fighting against God Himself, and they were out to destroy God's creation,
and the chaos is a result.

But they were no match for God, they are now "bound in chains" according to Jude, kept in an "abyss" (some place of utter chaos, I know not where) with restricted access to this world alone -- but they are being unleashed in this world because people are denying the One Who can save and protect them, and are uniting their powers with the intents and power of the evil one. And soon this earth will again be "without form and void" an abyss, while God's people will be in heaven with God.

But that's not in Rev 12.
I have nowhere said I didn't believe in the war in heaven before creation.


Dedication, the sun may or may not have been created on day 4. I'm not dogmatic on that even though scripture does not show that and does seem to support it was existing before. It does not support the idea of the sun going out and being relit by God. But you are wrong about multiple creations, the ruin and restoration theory. You use the same verses and the same arguments for the day beginning at sunrise people.

I suggest you move these posts to the New Light forum. Under category ::A::

You yourself believe in multiple creations.
-- The earth was already there, the sun may have existed before creation --- those are all things that you have stated several times now.

Thus YOU believe in multiple creations.

So I don't understand why you are so against the thought that Satan and his huge host of mighty fallen angels destroyed things that God created during the pre-six day creation war they waged against God.

Instead of always veering off on some irrelevant concept that in some strange way that war changes the Sabbath, why not answer some questions --
Why is there chaos in the universe?
Do you believe God created that chaos --
-- if you do then you believe in violence and death as part of God's creation-- you think God's perfect creation operates on the dying and remaking cycles.

Which ends up being the very bases of theistic evolution!

You seem so against the thought that God could restore the damage Satan inflicted on this earth, (and, when the time is right, restore the damage they inflicted on the rest of the universe) yet you would rather have God create a universe that runs on a natural ruin and restore cycles??? That is the only answer you've given me to the actual question raised --And yes, you said as much when you compared it to the death and renewal of cells.

By comparing it to the death and renewal of cells, means a ruin and restore natural cycle.

Why have planets exploded, why have suns gone out, why are things crashing into each other in the universe? --
all that is scientific fact and the question which has been raised.

It's not some kind of "new light" and it certainly does not change the Sabbath. Those arguments are all irrelevant to the discussion.

THEISTIC EVOLUTION

According to this view, God created the building blocks and imbued them with natural laws with the eventual emergence of all the things we see in the world in mind. This view is similar to atheistic evolution in that it presumes a naturalistic—though God-designed, aided and ordained—origin of life.

The huge difference between theistic evolution and special creation concerns --
1. Time element, special creation took six days, theistic evolution evolved over eons of years.

2. Special creation everything was created perfect, there was no death, dying, survival of the fittest etc. etc. those things are all the result of sin.
While theistic evolution has eons of life and death cycles, with survival of the fittest leading to better levels of creation, etc. basically in theistic creation God creates with cycles of life and death -- thus death is not the result of sin but the means to improved forms of life.

Now --
when we look at the state of the universe in which we find destruction and levels of chaos among an otherwise orderly arrangement, we have to ask, why?

Does it confirm theistic evolution,
or was some sinful "war" fought there that caused chaos to enter God's perfect work?

Does God use death to shape life in the universe? No. Sin brings death.

Clipped phrases and paste??? how does that answer the questions? Or did your computer give you problems?



I think it is because sinful, fallen, yet powerful angels, went to war against God. God did not create that chaos.
How do you explain it, Kland?



Sin ruins, and God does restore, how thankful we can be that He does restore!
His restoration is a blessing for sure!

However, I do not believe that was the design as to how His original creation was to operate. He did not design it to run on dying and restoring cycles. Something happened to bring the "ruin" and chaos into the universe -- a great rebellion and war by fallen angels.

Huh - - I wonder where the "information" of how cells operation is located and how it was ruined?

As we age we realize more and more that we are slowly dying, our cells don't regenerate that well anymore.
I agree that sin brings death, that was never in question. It is painfully obvious in this old world.

When Adam and Eve sinned -- the death process began --
Dying you shall die, and so it has been ever since.

It would not be so if we weren't born with sinful flesh.

But we can look forward to restoration!
When this corruptible shall put on incorruption.

1 Cor.15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

Regenerate.
Hmmmm....

Yes, in this sinful world, cells die, new ones replace most of them but aging takes it's toll till death wins.

In this sinful world, every day people are dying, and every day new people are being born.

In this sinful world, every fall, in lands distant from the equator, plants die, leaves fall, death takes over much of the vegetation, but in spring new plants and new leaves emerge.

If it weren't for God's power of restoration, sin and death would have won long ago.

Now the issue is this --
People look at those cycles of death and life and think that's the way it should be.

Evolutionists build their theories upon it -- those who include God in their evolutionary thought processes, think God used endless cycles of death and life to bring forth the creation we see today.

It is they that think the universe begins in chaos -- a "big bang" in which God flings out the energy and a chaos of matter start spinning around in the universe. There is a lot of explosions, stars are born and die, there is a lot of crashing into each other as the pieces evolve into some measure of gravitational order we see in the universe today.
It's called the chaos hypothesis.

OR

We can believe the Bible and "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God," Heb. 11:3
We can believe that the universe emerged from God as an orderly place, each planet in its orbit, each solar system in its place within its galaxy, etc. everything in perfect harmony.
This is God's creation is good, never chaos.

In the chaos theory, things are supposedly progressing, the dying and birthing cycles are no problem, for they see it as the creative vehicle to "get rid of the old defective forms" and come up with better forms.

Whereas, they that believe God's creation is good, never chaos, have a need to understand why there is chaos in the universe.

We know why there is chaos here on earth -- its because sin is far more active in this world, then righteousness.
But why is there chaos in the universe?

Yep. Genesis 3:15. And what happens with God allows sin to play out? Death. Execution? Nope. It is a solemn truth, sin causes death. And where is the information about how sin causes death in not just humans, but all life stored?

Now take a journey just in our solar system.

We see Mars -- a riddle, what happened there?

National Geographic reports March 2013


Floods and volcanoes
Neither speak of a "perfect" world hospitable to life, though the elements seem to have been there for Mars to have once been a planet hospitable for life. Scientists looking for first signs of evolutionary life, are looking in vain. Life did not appear in evolutionary stages, if there ever was life on Mars it would be found in what they call "advanced" forms.

However, I don't think God created life in this solar system prior to the six days. But He didn't create the chaos and ruin seen in the solar system now, either. He created perfect planets ready for life.

Interesting -- "Universe Today" Reports June 7, 2017



Also what happened to the planet next to Mars?
It is now known as the Asteroid Belt. Though at present if you put all the pieces together it would be a very small planet. But it obviously seems to be the remains of some catastrophic explosion.

Some asteroids contain am abundances of precious metals such as nickel, iron, and titanium (to name a few), and even water. Some scientists even dream of making asteroids a target for mining operations.

Yet some of the small asteroids escape the belt and go of crashing through space and can be quite a menace.

So what happened there? Why are all these pieces of rock floating around, yet they contain things people regard as essentials of life. Someday we will know. But for now we can ask questions == and wonder if it had something to do with the war when satan and a huge number of angels were sent out of heaven. Seems much more plausible than thinking God created the chaos.

Dedication, are you saying the cellular processes of a cell is a result of sin?

Our bodies are marvelously designed by God to withstand the ravages of sin in an awesome, yet, because of the sin factor, still a short lived way.

The power to generate new life in our cells comes from God.
All life power comes from God.
Yet, the dying is a result of sin.


But these bodies of flesh and blood, that are dying even as they live, will not inherit heaven, we will receive new bodies.

1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

And thus you are saying, at the twinkling of an eye, our cellular processes will end?

1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.