Posted By: Darius
Are we just waiting? - 09/12/03 05:08 PM
Before giving his final benediction John the Revelator ends his book with this poignant phrase in Rev. 22:20, "Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
How many churches do you know that are pointedly and specifically engaged in a mission that is unequivocally designed and guaranteed to bring this thought to fruition, and how is it being done?
From my perspective I can see no evidence that the Christian community, for all the good it is engaged in, is doing anything more than hoping that what they are doing is good enough to grant them entrance when that momentous occasion arrives. I hope someone can disabuse me of that nothing with more than a few quotes from the Bible and Christian leaders.
Posted By: Durk
Re: Are we just waiting? - 09/13/03 09:07 PM
Before we get into the "more than a few quotes from the Bible and Christian leaders" thing I'm just curious about what kind of evidance you would accept as showing that a church is "pointedly and specifically engaged in a mission that is unequivocally designed and guaranteed to bring this thought to fruition."
Besides, is there really anything we can actually DO to speed this "momentous occasion"?
Posted By: Durk
Re: Are we just waiting? - 09/16/03 07:25 AM
I think the question of whether or not we can actually do something to affect the timing should probably be answered first. If it is determined that we CAN do something, WHAT we should be doing would be next. Lastly, find a church that is doing that. (I put things in this order because, frankly, I don't know what to look for when mentally running through my scant knowledge of the various churches and their missions.)
If we find that we can in fact not affect the timing, this whole discussion is moot and we can proceed directly to "What value is the church?"
I am currently of the opinion that we can not change the timing of the Lord's return. In fact, those things which are precursers to His return, ie: the gospel to all the world, are getting more remote in their likelyhood. In other words, if it is up to us, Christ will NEVER come back. I think it is more likely that Christ will come back "in the fullness of time". (Whatever that means.)
Posted By: Darius
Re: Are we just waiting? - 09/16/03 03:30 PM
Durk, the order you have outlined is as it should be. You found that we cannot affect the coming of Christ because
quote:
those things which are precursers to His return, ie: the gospel to all the world, are getting more remote in their likelyhood.
If your conclusion are correct we also would have to conclude that Jesus did not quite know what he was talking about. He was not stating prophecy but only expressing expectation. I am not prepared to go in that direction.
Your argument is based on the assumption that the reign of sin must end at some time. This is widely accepted among Christians but it is based on complete ignorance of the law of large numbers. It also ignores the fact that the earth is only one infinitismally small segment of the entire univers which continues to operate under God's original plan. God's life did not come to an end when the earth fell.
Back to the law of large numbers. We all understand that if you have 1000 apples and you some give away what you have left is less than 1000 apples. If you give away all you have no apples left. We have subconsciously applied that form of arithmetic to salvation. God, we believe, dwells in eternity. If God is to ever have complete sovereignty over the earth then the reign of sin must come to an end. This is where we are fatally wrong. An infinite set is one that does not change its size when members of the set are taken away. So, if you take away 1000 from infinity you are still left with infinity. Here is the point that pastors and other Christians are unaware of or ignore. If you take away infinity from infinity you are still left with infinity. We cannot just throw up our hands and say "If we don't do it God will have no choice but to step in 'in the fulness of time.'" This mess could go on forever and still not affect God's timetable. Think about that.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Are we just waiting? - 09/16/03 03:58 PM
"This mess could go on forever and still not affect God's timetable."
Then are you saying that sin could go on forever and still not affect God's timetable?
Posted By: Durk
Re: Are we just waiting? - 09/17/03 02:48 AM
Darius, I did not base my arguement "on the assumption that the reign of sin must end at some time." At least not consciously. Rather it was based, in my mind, on Matt. 24 where it says "this gospel will be preached in the whole world and then the end will come."
To my understanding, in SDA theology two conditions must hold for Christ to return: 1) the gospel must be preached in all the world and 2) there must be a people who perfectly reflect Christ's character. IMNSHO, I can find no Scriptural support for either.
As far as this infinity thing, I must completely reject that line of thought on the basis that when you subtract infinity from infinity, you get zero. High school students do it all the time when converting a repeating decimal to a fraction. Therefore, to say that "This mess could go on forever and still not affect God's timetable." is completely absurd, and totally unsupported by Scripture.
If sin went on for ever, that would totally screw up God's time table, not to mention negating Scripture, which says that God will bring and end to sin.
However, since I like to base my arguements on Scripture, I have not found a text that says we can do any thing to affect God's time table. Therefore I conclude that there is nothing we can do.
(We can move to the question of the value of the church any time you are ready.)
Posted By: Durk
Re: Are we just waiting? - 09/17/03 06:38 AM
"That you are prepared to publicly demonstrate your complete ignorance of the law of large numbers astounds me."
I'm not sure when or where the insulting began, and if I was responsible I apologize. It was my understanding that we were Christian brothers discussing the merits of various ideas. I do attempt to keep my comments focused on the arguement at hand, and not the character or IQ of those who participate in the discussion.
When referencing Matt. 24 I was indicating where my assumptions originated from, not discussing the text itself. It seems to me that as Christians we are loosing ground in trying to get the gospel to the whole world; people are being born faster than we can tell them about Christ. (I have no statistics to prove this, it is just how things seem to me to be going.) The church itself is fractured, political, and corrupt. I do not know of a group of people who perfectly reflect the image of Christ.
So I think the question of whether or not we can affect the timing of Christ's return is still unanswered. I am still of the opinion that we can not.
I would also like it to be demonstrated that the "law of large numbers" legitimately applies to theology and/or salvation.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Are we just waiting? - 09/17/03 03:16 PM
As far as any natural law goes, the law of gravity, the law of numbers, the law of healing, the law of light, the law of space and time, etc., can be and will be overridden by God, for nothing is impossible for God except for those things that God has made impossible for Him to do, such as it is impossible for God to lie.
quote:
To my understanding, in SDA theology two conditions must hold for Christ to return: 1) the gospel must be preached in all the world and 2) there must be a people who perfectly reflect Christ's character. IMNSHO, I can find no Scriptural support for either.
As far as when the end will come, there is Scripture to back that up, however, Scripture also says that we do not know the time or the hour of His appearing, but the Father does, and the suspect that the Son also now knows.
As far as point #1 above goes, here is the quoted Scripture reference:
quote:
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
As far as point #2 goes, there must be a Scriptural reference somewhere that backs up this thought. I do think that there is somewhere in the writings of Ellen White. Does anybody know where either or both may be found?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Are we just waiting? - 09/17/03 04:04 PM
When Christ ascended into heaven, didn't He personally violate the natural law of gravity?
When Christ walked on the water, and Peter did likewise, wasn't a natural law violated? Can you walk on water and thus also violate this natural law? No, you can't, however, both He and Peter did.
When the fire sent by God from heaven burned up the water, didn't God violate one of His own natural laws?
and as far as Ellen White goes, as God's messenger, I accept what she says was told to her by God, as long as it doesn't go contrary to what the Scriptures say, and adding more detail doesn't go contrary to the Bible.