What's wrong with "sinning not"
Posted By: Restin
What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/01/04 05:28 PM
Well, I think I've figured out what's wrong in the marathon controversy around here about Mike Lowe's insistence that you can not sin if you are a born again, true follower of Christ.
It's all centered on the "if only's".
EGW said that "if only" Adam had fully trusted God, the world would never have fallen into Satan's hands...If only Eve had stayed by Adam's side, she never would have fallen prey to the serpent....If only the Jews would have accepted Christ, he never would have had to suffer the horrendous crucifixion but would have been slain in the Jewish sacrificial way. Also in the volumnous "Testimonies for The Church" EGW takes on one individual after another, to say: "if only" you had done this,or not done that, the evil ruin in your life never would have happened. Well, that is absulutely true..irrefutable and perfect formal logic...and is why you can never win an argument with Mike on this board.
The "what if" premise can never be won because it is pure math , looks back on the unalterable past (unless you can time-travel),and is unarguable. But it is purely academic, which makes it perfect for a place like this where people write out their logic back and forth on forums that leave out every day real-life human experiences.
What makes people mad, I think, is that Mike can argue this academic logic until every last person has given up and left this forum in discouragement and despair...because they (and me) can never show Mike that real life on sinful Earth is just not academic. It is absolutely true that "if only" you never break your connection with Jesus, you will not, cannot sin. But, fact is, everybody does break that connection, if only for a few moments, even after conversion. But God knew that, and it's why there had to be a cross, and is why there is GRACE. In Mike's world there is no need for Grace, or for forgiveness, because at his own admission he is perfect because always connected. But God, if not Mike, realizes that even converted, born again Christian's ARE going to lose their connection from time to time, and ARE going to sin, and God has mercifully provided for that.
What I object to, and others as well, from the sound of other posts, is how Mike insists on this academic viewpoint that really has little to do with real life and is only a discouragement to real people in real situations.. So, now that I've gotten this figured out, I do at least know why I'm resentful of his posts most of the time,yet can't quite figure out what's wrong. It's because he's always right...but only if you live full time inside an SDA textbook and not out here in the real world where the rest of us live.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/01/04 08:14 PM
Restin, thank you for expressing your frustration regarding the view of rebirth I've been sharing on MSDAOL. I think you have identified the problem nicely. Everything affiliated with salvation is conditional and, therefore, somewhat academic. However, the Bible cites only one "if" relating to born again believers not sinning. Here it is:
1 John
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
This is the only place in the entire Bible where God implies post-conversion sin and repentance. Check it out for yourself. I'm not making it up. All the other places where God promises victory and perfection, the equation is stated in the affirmative. That is, the promise simply says whoever is abiding in Jesus does not sin. Here's one of them:
1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
The condition is clear - if we are connected to Christ we will not commit a known sin. Don't blame me, or give me the credit, for this beautiful promise. God said it, not me. Since it is so plainly worded, we need to focus our energy on figuring out how it can be true, rather than trying to make it agree with reality, the real world experience of falling and failing and backsliding and coming short of the glory of God.
You implied that I never disconnect myself from Jesus or commit a known sin. Please, give me a break. I have never said such a thing. I don't mind you being upset, but please don't invent lies about me. All I'm saying is this - if we are connected to Jesus we do not and cannot commit a known sin. Yes, reality confirms that we do not always stay connected to Christ each anad every time we ar tempted to be unChristlike. But none of this negates the promises.
Sinning and repenting is not merely an academic problem - it's an epidemic problem. That's why Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death. He came to give us victory over our tendency to sin and come short of the glory of God. Our eternal life depends on us getting it right. If we fail to overcome, as Jesus overcame, then we will die in the lake of fire with Satan and his followers. That's the simple truth.
The idea that not sinning is merely academic, that it does not reflect reality, and is, therefore, bogus and bothersome information, borders on treason. If we go around telling people that the Bible promises perfection (here and now) but that it is nothing more than academic information, because the reality is we always fall short in one way or another - if we share the gospel in this manner we are representing Satan and his lies.
“Christ came to the world to counteract Satan’s falsehood that God had made a law which men could not keep. Taking humanity upon Himself, He came to this earth, and by a life of obedience showed that God has not made a law that man cannot keep. He showed that it is possible for man perfectly to obey the law. Those who accept Christ as their Saviour, becoming partakers of His divine nature, are enabled to follow His example, living in obedience to every precept of the law. Through the merits of Christ, man is to show by his obedience that he could be trusted in heaven, that he would not rebel.” (TMK 292)
“In the opening of the great controversy, Satan had declared that the law of God could not be obeyed, that justice was inconsistent with mercy, and that, should the law be broken, it would be impossible for the sinner to be pardoned. Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice. When men broke the law of God, and defied His will, Satan exulted. It was proved, he declared, that the law could not be obeyed; man could not be forgiven. Because he, after his rebellion, had been banished from heaven, Satan claimed that the human race must be forever shut out from God’s favor. God could not be just, he urged, and yet show mercy to the sinner.
“But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God’s glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God’s love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan’s sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God’s love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God.” (DA 761, 762)
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/03/04 05:40 PM
Mike,
You said to Restin:
"You implied that I never disconnect myself from Jesus or commit a known sin. Please, give me a break. I have never said such a thing. I don't mind you being upset, but please don't invent lies about me. All I'm saying is this - if we are connected to Jesus we do not and cannot commit a known sin."
Mike, you said this in a previous post:
"If Sister White's theology is representative of the SDA Church then, Yes, it is the official position. However, there are members within the SDA Church, even here on MSDAOL, who do not agree with it. They believe we are born again morally defective, and that we gradually outgrow our imperfections after years of sinning and repenting until we eventually cease sinning. This is a fatal lie, and may very well be the reason why mankind is still wandering in the wilderness of sin, instead of fellowshipping with angels and loved ones in heaven."
You didnt merely say "if we are connected to Jesus we do not and cannot commit a known sin."
I think it can be quite discouraging to some if they end up believing that if they sin they are not really converted. And I think that would be just as Satan would want it.
Also, after all this time of seeing your posts on this subject and (forgive me for saying this) your seeming obsession with this, I still cant figure out just what you are trying to get at. I dont understand why you are constantly on this subject and what it is you are trying to get people to believe.
From what I know of the Spirit of Prophecy there are two lines of thought (both errors) of those who claim we do not sin...
First there are those who claim once we are "saved" we are automatically put into a place where we no longer sin, in the eyes of God and so it really doesnt matter what you do... you are going to be saved anyway. The results of that idea is to think yourself "ok" when in reality you are in bad shape spiritually. For more info:
http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/gc/gc27.html Secondly, there are those who claim once we are saved we must be perfectly sinless and in fact they claim they themselves are sinless... in which case they would be wrong and have not a clue about the perfection of Christ and how far from perfect they really are in comparison.. The results of that thinking is they will finally believe themselves to be "ok" spiritually when in reality they are like the Pharisees who think themselves "holier than thou" instead of the Publican who says "God have mercy upon me, a sinner". For more info:
http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/col/col13.html Either way is a great error and I just cannot figure out which one of these you are, and if you claim you are not trying to push one of these two ideas then why is it you are continually trying to promote this "no sin" theology?
It concerns me, as I do not want anyone thinking they are allright when they are still far from God, either way.
The Pharisee and the liberal "sin and live" are both in sorry shape and under a deception.
I realize this could probably be considered an "attack" by me on you but I just think it needs to be said. And it wouldnt be the first time I've been thrown off a forum anyway
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
Claudia
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/03/04 11:24 PM
quote:
I think it can be quite discouraging to some if they end up believing that if they sin they are not really converted.
I agree. It would be very discouraging, and very confusing, because it is not the truth, and only the truth can set us free. Post-conversion sin and repentance is, unfortunately, a reality that is all too common. A lot of people do not enyoy slipping in and out of sin.
The reason I am obessed with this topic, righteousness by faith, is because it has set me (and others) free. Taking God at His word is liberating. But when we twist His word to serve a lie we remain in bondage. I believe it is our duty, as remnant believers, to expose error and to share the truth. I am convinced that the Bible is right, and that in order to experience the joy of Jesus we must embrace the truth as it is in Jesus.
We all agree that moral perfection, sinlessness, is available and possible. It's just that we don't all agree as to when it is possible. Most people (not on MSDAOL) seem to believe it isn't possible until after Jesus returns. That's a lie. Some believe it is achieved after years of sinning and repenting less and less. Which is also a lie.
The Bible clearly says we are born again dead to sin and awake to righteousness. There's no way around the truth. It's just so plainly worded in the Bible. To doubt it is to love death. Instead of inventing ways to undermine the meaning of God's promises, we need to figure out how they can be true of us, here and now. That's what I've been attempting to do on MSDAOL.
Sinning is so close to home that for some of us it makes them nervous and upset whenever the truth is brought up. People who normally defend righteousness by faith turn around and defend a life of sinning and repenting, as if it's a normal part of overcoming. But that's not how the Bible describes it. When we are connected to Christ we do not and cannot commit a known sin. For some weird reason, this truth aggravates people, when it should thrill their soul.
Sinning and repenting, over and over again for same thing, after awhile makes people question the promises of God. The Bible says born again believers, abiding in Jesus, do not commit known sins, so when they sin it bothers them, it makes them wonder if they are truly born again. Which is healthy. But what we decide about it is what determines our ultimate fate. If we force the promises to condone our frequent forays into sin, then we believe a lie. But if we do believe the promises, the way they are worded, then God can help us to experience them, the way He intended.
Just because we take our eyes off Jesus and fall back into some known sin it doesn't mean we were never converted or born again (though that may very well be the case). The promises of God only apply to us when we are connected to Jesus, when we're walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Plain and simple. If we want to experience the promises of God, exactly as they are worded, then all we have to do is stay in tune with Jesus, and there's nothing wrong with hanging out with Jesus.
People who flatly disagree with the insights I've been sharing should also explain why the promises of God describe born again believers as those who do not and cannot a known sin. I have attempted to explain it by insisting that it is true, here and now, providing we are currently connected to Jesus. But when we are disconnected from Him it is obviously no longer true, at that precise point in time. But there is another promise that kicks in, a promise that describes our predictament and the way out of it. That promise is 1 John 2:1, 2.
Once we are reconnected to Jesus the promises are true of us again, and we can resume maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, because sanctification (i.e., gradually growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit) is the work of a lifetime, including eternal life. It begins here and now and, so long as we are connected to Jesus, continues throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. Eternity isn't long enough to exhaust our potential to become more and more like sweet Jesus.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/04/04 01:59 AM
quote:
When we are connected to Christ we do not and cannot commit a known sin. For some weird reason, this truth aggravates people, when it should thrill their soul.
I think this may aggravate people because they know it's not true. Inspiration does not teach us that we CANNOT commit a known sin if we are "connected" to Christ, a teaching we know by experience to be false (it teaches us we NEED NOT commit a known sin, a very different thing). The example of someone saying a bad word because they hurt themselves was given on another thread. You call this an unintentional sin, but such as sin is certainly known. That is, a person certainly knows that saying a bad word is a sin, hence it's a known sin. Perhaps by "known sin" you mean "intentional sin."
I think your whole way of looking at things is off. Instead of focusing on sin, and not commiting sins, it would be much better to focus on Christ as the revelation of God's character. It is God's character of love that transforms us and enables us to overcome sin. Apart from an understanding of His transforming love, overcoming sin is impossible.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/05/04 04:23 AM
Tom, inspiration clearly tells us that we cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Christ. Of course, sins committed unwittingly are not counted against us. And unintentional sins are also known sins. I agree with you that there is a difference between "does not sin" and does not need to sin or does not continue in sin, but the truth is the same - in Christ we do not want to sin, we do not have to sin, and we do not sin. Without Him all we can do is sin.
Therefore, as you continue to affirm, we must keep our eyes on Jesus so that the Holy Spirit can continue to empower us to imitate the example of Christ. The result is two fold - we don't commit known sins and we mature in the fruits of the Spirit. We cannot avoid the sin problem, hoping it will go away naturally, all on its own, without any effort on our part. We must labor, agonize, wrestle and strive to enter in at the strait gate.
1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.
MH 180
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}
FW 48
We are to do all that we can do on our part to fight the good fight of faith. We are to wrestle, to labor, to strive, to agonize to enter in at the strait gate. We are to set the Lord ever before us. With clean hands, with pure hearts, we are to seek to honor God in all our ways. Help has been provided for us in Him who is mighty to save. The spirit of truth and light will quicken and renew us by its mysterious workings; for all our spiritual improvement comes from God, not from ourselves. The true worker will have divine power to aid him, but the idler will not be sustained by the Spirit of God. {FW 48.1}
In one way we are thrown upon our own energies; we are to strive earnestly to be zealous and to repent, to cleanse our hands and purify our hearts from every defilement; we are to reach the highest standard, believing that God will help us in our efforts. We must seek if we would find, and seek in faith; we must knock, that the door may be opened unto us. The Bible teaches that everything regarding our salvation depends upon our own course of action. If we perish, the responsibility will rest wholly upon ourselves. If provision has been made, and if we accept God's terms, we may lay hold on eternal life. We must come to Christ in faith, we must be diligent to make our calling and election sure. {FW 48.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/05/04 07:28 AM
quote:
Tom, inspiration clearly tells us that we cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Christ. Of course, sins committed unwittingly are not counted against us. And unintentional sins are also known sins.
You say that unintentional sins are known sins. So by saying that we cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Christ you are saying we cannot commit an unintentional sin while abiding in Christ. Is this really what you believe?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/05/04 08:05 AM
If unintentional sinning is inevitable, insurmountable, impossible to overcome, to resist, to escape - then why would God promise us victory? Since there is no excuse for committing known sins it stands to reason that, in Christ, victory includes unintentional sins and situations. If not now, when? Does victory depend on failure, on failing less and less often, less and less intensely, until we eventually, gradually stop sinning unintentionally altogether?
Luke
11:4 And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
1 Corinthians
10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
2 Peter
1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/05/04 06:13 PM
A lot of unintentional sin is unknown. That is, we commit sins by unintentionally misrepresenting God's character because we don't know any better. For example, if we view God as a harsh dictator who is waiting to punish us if we do anything wrong, we sin. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us we can construct idols out of our false philosophies just as much as from wood or stone.
The 144,000 will obtain victory over all sin. The last message to be given is a message of love, a message of God's character. "Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love." (COL 415)
Truth is progressive and God gives truth corporately. We can see this in our church. First of all around 1844 God gave the truth regarding the Sabbath, the State of the Dead, the Sanctuary and so forth. Before the truth of the Sabbath was known for example, the prophesies regarding the 144,000 could not be fulfilled. God's character cannot be correctly represented when His followers are unwittingly sinning (to use your expression).
A proper representation of God's character is dependent on truth. As long as we have misunderstanding of God's character it is IMPOSSIBLE to not unwittingly sin (sorry for the double negative). Since truth is progressive, there is no way this can happen in the blink of an eye, when one is converted.
The very word "unintentional" conveys that something is being done apart from ones volition. When one is converted, one does not become a robot. How would it be possible for one not to do something that doesn't involve volition? (there's the double negative again).
What God does is to make us aware of unintentional sins. Victory over such sins is not instantaneous nor could it be. First we have to become aware of a sin before we can repent of it. That's just common sense.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/05/04 06:50 PM
It looks like we're dancing around semantics (and to think, Adventists aren't supposed to dance). What you term sinning unintentionally I call sinning ignorantly. So long as we're willing to overlook our semantic differences, then I think it safe to say we're talking about the same thing, namely, God can and does empower us to resist sinning in situations where we normally sin automatically, spontaneously. And I thank God for His enabling influence and power. And, I might add, my wife is thankful too. She definitely appreciates it when I am calm, cool and collected - instead of blowing it like an idiot. Thank you, Jesus.
Also, I want to tell you how much I appreciate the way you focus on the love and character of God. It is sad, way too sad, the way people tend to be ego-centric as they seek to fight the good fight of faith. It's so easy to lose sight of the bigger picture. Our planet, our minds and hearts, are the battle field where Jesus and Satan are fighting over the issues concerning the great controversy, and all too often we forget that we're just a small part of what's going on here. So, thanx for keeping us on track. I love you, brother. Happy Sabbath.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/06/04 12:41 AM
quote:
Our planet, our minds and hearts, are the battle field where Jesus and Satan are fighting over the issues concerning the great controversy, and all too often we forget that we're just a small part of what's going on here.
Amen to this! I don't think can be overemphsized. The most important thing is not the salvation of our little souls, but the vindication of Christ. This is why victory over sin (not just known sin, but all sin) is important. Sin misrepresents God's character.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/07/04 09:19 AM
Mike.
You wrote:
When we are connected to Christ we do not and cannot commit a known sin. in Christ we do not want to sin, we do not have to sin, and we do not sin. Without Him all we can do is sin.
Unquote.
How to be “in Christ?”
I can understand that Christ is “in us” by his Spirit, controlling our will and do when we let him. But even so, I can sin, if I want, for I have the liberty to do that. But it is hard for me to understand, how I can be “in Christ?” And what benefits for me when I am in him? If I am in Him, doesn’t his righteousness cover my unrighteousness? Making a sinless perfect life has no meaning.
In His love
James S
Posted By: Restin
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/07/04 06:36 PM
But how can you have victory over sin if you go along with Mike's view? There is no victory... because there's no battle. According to him, if you're converted, you can not sin anymore. So, the fight is gone. You are a perfect, finished product at once and are beyond struggling and becoming. You are already there: Perfect.
Victory is a hollow word when you have simply been lifted by the collar and swooshed over the battleground. There is a place in EGW writings where she says that the life of the Christian is a "battle and a march". That's after becoming a converted, dedicated SDA. But the trouble with Mike's theory is that you should see thousands of Christians out there who absolutely NEVER do one thing wrong in life...unless he thinks he is the only one.
Let's say someone commits his life to God at age 16, which many SDA have. From that day on, Those people never have said a bad word, never had a selfish thought, never made a wrong choice, never forgot a birthday, never spent one foolish dime, and never neglected to always do the perfect way with their wife, or husband.
But have any of us actually known such a perfect human being? I think that's why some of us have issues with Brother Mike. None of us have ever known a faultless, sinless person. For even if you admired someone as a great, upstanding SDA minister, or deacon, or what, you begin to see they are quite human after knowing them a few years. Consider even the august leaders of the SDA church, now or in history. Read their biographys...you will find faults and errors aplenty, to their dieing day, even tho converted earnest servants of God, that God loved and approved of in general.
What about moses? What about Jacob? What about EGW herself? Their biographies all point to things they did wrong after they were converted. They lost Mike's technical "connection" quite a few times after siding with God.
Yes, it's back to the technical, semantic "what if's" again. What if Moses had not smote the rock for water instead of speaking to it? What if Jacob had never tried to cheat Esau out of the birthright? What if EGW had never gotten the momentary pride that caused the death of her baby? Well, Mike may be correct in his view of "keeping connected". Only trouble is, there is no one who has in the past, nor probably will in the future, which is why we need GRACE. In Mikes theology, righteousness-by-faith means that "if only" you are 100% faithful to always stay connected, you can not sin. In our world, the real world, righteousness-by-faith means that when we are faithful to confess our sins, Christ is faithful to forgive us our sins... and help.
If Mike were living near me and going to my church, I would assume he would get to know each church member. And while he is sitting in his pew he will be saying to himself things like this with each and every one..."Hummm, I see that Mrs.so-and-so has some eyebrow pencil on today. I just know she isn't converted and God is not in her life! Or, "I see Mr.so-and-so is snappy with his wife today..I know for sure the Holy Spirit isn't in him! Well, maybe Mike wouldn't do that because he is "sinless". But I might, and so would other people who are human who believe the way Mike does about conversion. How could you think otherwise when you are sure that true Christians never do anything wrong! If we believed like Mike does, it wouldn't be hard at all to pick out who isn't a true christian in the church we go to...just look around and see who has never done, never does, anything wrong in life. Pity...we wouldn't find a single converted person in the church...not even Mike!
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/07/04 09:48 PM
James, the biblical motiff "in Christ" is not an easy concept to grasp, is it? I usually think in concrete terms, and metaphors like "abide in me" are more abstract and, therefore, not as easy for me to wrap my mind around. Abiding in Jesus, like a branch abiding on the vine, or being connected to Jesus, like an electric trolley car being connected to the power line, are word pictures that are designed to help us understand how we are supposed to abide in Christ, just like He used to abide in the Father, when He was walking this world as our substitute and example.
But sometimes these symbolic representations are lost upon us. And I suspect that's why certain aspects of salvation are just too mysterious for us to totally comprehend right now. Some things are easier to experience than they are to explain in words. Do you know what I mean? Whatever it means to "abide" in Christ, whether we can articulate it or not, one thing is true - the results are awesome, if not miraculous. Even the tangible fruits of salvation (i.e., faith, works, holiness, obedience, righteousness), even these things are easier to experience than they are to put down in words.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/07/04 10:30 PM
Restin, that was quite a commentary. I wish we knew each other personally, though I suspect you don't feel the same way right now, because I'm pretty sure we would be good friends. I'm not at all like the mean spirited person you described. You can ask my wife, my kids, and any one of my friends. I do not look around me and try to second guess who is right with God and who isn't. That would bore me to tears. I normally see life through rose colored glasses. I live a charmed life, with a charming wife, charming children, and a charming outdoor ministry.
Also, I agree with you that most born again believers slip in and out of sin with amazing regularity - my self included. Did you hear me? I said, my self included. I have never said anything that would give the impression life is anything but a battle and a march. I know that from experience, just like you and everyone else knows it. So, please, please, please stop demonizing me.
You said it yourself, so long as we are abiding in Jesus we cannot commit a known sin. Which is true. That's exactly what it says in the Bible. Does that mean we cannot stop abiding in Jesus and revert back to our sinful ways? Of course not. We are always free to sin, if we want to, but no one who is truly born again really wants to sin. So, we shouldn't go around doubting the meaning of the promises of God, or twisting them to mean something they don't say. Instead we should direct all of our energy toward learning how to stay connected to Jesus, so that whenever we're tempted to be unChristlike we choose rather to abide in the love of Jesus.
There are many positive and uplifting things we can do to strengthen our ability and willingness to keep our eyes on Jesus, so that when temptation comes our way, instead of falling headlong into sin, we automatically turn to Jesus for help in our time of need. But looking around at other faulty brothers and sisters, who cannot seem to get it right, and fail even more often than we do, is no way to fortify our minds against the snares of Satan.
Can you think of anything else we can do to improve our chances of keeping our eyes of Jesus whenever we're tempted to be unChristlike, so that we can come away more than conquerors, unto the honor and glory of God?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/07/04 10:47 PM
I'll put in my two cents.
I think the Bible uses many metaphors, and we make mistakes if we build complex theological systems on them. The metaphors are ways God uses to communicate spiritual truths. Our task it is to figure out what these spiritual truths are.
God wants His followers to follow Him because they love Him and admire His character. To the end of publishing His true character, He has given a revelation of Himself in Jesus Christ. In Christ we see a picture of a God who is wonderful beyond comprehension. Paul alludes to this when he prays, "That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us (Eph. 3:16-20).
In a legal sense the whole human race is "in Christ." It is because we are in Christ that we live physically even though we are sinners. The way the Spirit of Prophesy puts it is "to the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life" and "Christ, by His wonderful life in giving His life, restored the whole race of men to favor with God."
In an experiential sense we become "in Christ" when we believe in Him; when we appreciate the cost of our salvation; when we appreciate the picture of God Jesus Christ has painted; when we are moved to unite our allegiance to Him, to learn of Him, to behold Him, we are "in Christ."
Posted By: Restin
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/08/04 08:45 AM
I suppose we would be friends if we were neighbors, Mike, for I can tell you are a good man and trying your best in life.I do really believe that from being around here a long time. I try to be decent too and a good neighbor. But i wish so much that you were my neighbor so I could take advantage of your being such a nice guy...a lot better than my partially connected, semi-converted neighbors who pretend to be oh so busy when my car needs new brakes, or my house needs painted, and I don't have any money.
But I have these issues with you because of your emphasis on the formal, deductive logic of Biblical text rather than upon the souls of human beings. It may be, as you say, a formal truth that people will not sin as long as they sustain continuous connection with Christ. But who does, and who can...and maybe some of us aren't even ready to do the Jesus thing 100% of every minute of every day.
The problem is that you remind me of certain teachers I had in the SDA school I attended from first grade thru 12th, graduating from Forest Lake Academy in Florida. Some teachers put so much emphasis on "sinning not" that many of us young people, with our energy, surging hormones, and a whole new world to explore, just couldn't keep our "connectedness" without unraveling from time to time. I thought I was converted ..only to give in (more times than I want to admit) and let myself do or think something bad. So, my conversion must have meant nothing. I didn't realize then that the text "Be ye perfect" is a goal God desires for us, not a threat. To me, "Be ye perfect" meant I had better durned well have attained it by the time God came to my name on His check list that day, or else I was DEADSVILLE, with my feet already slipping into the Lake of Fire, as of that moment.
So what did I do when I was a young SDA fresh out of school? I did just what about 80% of the youth in SDA schools do. I left the church as well as the school. I knew my conversion was a useless phoney, when perfection is the criteria. So I, like most the kids in my class, became your typical prodigal daughters and sons who give up on SDA perfectionism. I went to a worldly university, got steeped in the New Age stuff and free love, and the whole works.I did it as bad as the others, and ended up making all the terrible mistakes people do who run away from God, live the worldly lifestyle, and end up on the bottom rung of the pit.
So, maybe you can see, Bro Mike, how it bothers me when people who are SDA go around telling people what perfect angels they must show everybody they are if they are genuine SDA. I know people need to be trying, and trying hard. We must be commandment keepers as well as talkers, and we should all be in the active stages of spiritual maturing
Gladly, I see by your last post, Mike, that you do have a more normal balance about sinners when someone really pins you down. You have admittd that SDA do actually fall a little bit from time to time, even tho converted. So, it seems that perhaps it's more a matter of emphasis...the difference between my view and yours. Your thing is to emphasize the "always connected" aspect with it's resultant perfect life; while someone else's emphasis might be to tell of the mercy of Jesus when human beings lose their connection a bit. I guess I can live with that. But I just wish there would be more people who tell of the mercy side of Christianity for erring humans... so less people will be subjected to the despair i felt and end up doing what I did. (sigh) I guess I'm still not going to be saved...I lost my "connection" today and gossiped about my neighbor 3 houses down who doesn't cut his grass often enough.
![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/09/04 07:33 AM
Ahhhh, that now that felt good, Restin. Thanx for being so honest, so open. Now I know we would make great neighbors. Hey, I've got a great idea, when we get to heaven, we can hook up with a duplex on the lake, with awesome views of the mountains, and swap stories. I'd like that. Of course, my favorite story to tell is how my wife and I met each other, and how we fell in love.
Yeah, I know what you mean about mercy. I grew up in the 70's (yeah, yeah, I know, I'm just a kid), and people were all about love and mercy, so the teachers at the academy I attended in Nebraska (Platte Valley) never really even mentioned the law or obedience. More boys and girls were sent home for drugs and pregnancy than I'd like to remember. Fortunately, nothing like that happened to me. My problems were more systemic - pride and conceit.
One of the main reasons I'm so excited about the truth regarding rebirth and perfection, you know, staying connected to Jesus and all that good stuff, is because I went through a period in my life where I was sick and tired of being impatient all of the time. Every little stupid thing would trigger a barrage of fits that made everyone around me absolutely miserable. One day my daughter, my sweet, precious little lady, my darling princess, asked me, Daddy, why do you hate me?
As you can imagine, I was devastated, I mean totally and thoroughly devastated. It turned my whole world upside down. Truthfully, I have never been the same since, and that was 15 years ago. I purposed in my heart that I was going to do whatever it took to overcome my wicked, wicked, wicked impatience problem. That’s when I began to realize that my theology was to blame, and not my God. When I started taking God at His word, a brand new world opened before my very eyes. It was like I was reading the Bible for the first time in my life.
When it finally dawned on me that God means exactly what it says in the Bible, I chose to claim His promises, and I fully expected Him to answer my prayers. And, miracle of all miracles, He did. Restin, I cannot tell you how happy it made me, and how happy it made everyone else in my family. At first they were suspicious. They kept wondering what happened to me. But eventually they accepted the change, and were glad for it.
One day I overheard a conversation between my daughter and her best friend. It went something like this. “Angel, won’t your father get upset if you don’t ask him first?” Her answer still brings tears to my eyes. “No,” she said, “My father doesn’t get upset like that anymore. He loves me too much. I’m his precious princess.” Restin, can you imagine what that did for me? Yeah, I’m very excited about what I discovered concerning rebirth and victory in Jesus.
Okay, here’s more on mercy. I realize I cannot tell that story without also going on to say that there are still times when I blow it. But I never blow it big time. Not any more. The thought of disappointing my family or friends, especially Jesus, super motivates me to spend a lot of time in prayer, a lot of time meditating on the love of God, a lot of time fellowshipping with Jesus. There are many reasons why I do this, some better than others, but the main reason is so I can love my loved ones the way Jesus loves them. And being patient is a very good way to demonstrate my love for them.
When I do blow it, dear Jesus, you know I hate it with a perfect hatred. That look in my wife’s eyes, that look, oh man, it hurts me terribly. I immediately apologize, an apology that comes from somewhere deep down in my heart, a place where the love of Jesus is richer than fine gold. Of course, my wife is quick to forgive me, we hug, and then I resolve within myself to never, never, never hurt her again. And Jesus honors my prayer.
The difference now, since learning the truth about victory, about abiding in Jesus, is that I no longer make up excuses for my failures. I used to say things like, “Well, so what. I’m only human, nobody is perfect. What did you expect? I’m a diamond in the ruff, Jesus isn’t finished with me yet. Besides, only the 144,000 will completely overcome sin, and I’m certainly not one of them, and neither are you.” Yuk!!! Can you imagine such a pig?
Now I know there’s no excuse for sinning, for being impatient, or whatever. I totally believe and expect God to fulfill His promises in and through me. And, so long as I do not resist His will or frustrate His grace, I am more than a conqueror – in Christ. And that suits me just fine. My wife too. Yes, it’s a battle and a march. Keeping my eyes on Jesus sometimes stretches every nerve and fiber in my being, but staying connected to Jesus is more than worth it. No amount of suffering can convince me that letting go would be better.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/08/04 11:12 PM
Mike
These personal testimonies did a better job of explaining your point than all the previous theology used. Thanks.
/Thomas
Posted By: Restin
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/09/04 04:30 PM
That was a mighty fine post, Mike. It does help to know where someone is coming from. And I do think we will meet in the new earth... many of us who attend this SDA forum. I want my own rambling indoor-outdoor million dollar log house in my own Rock Springs park (a place here in Florida) And I will no longer have arthritis so bad i can't ride a horse anymore or do gymnastics like I used to. I'm 65 now and beginning to see my body as a prison instead of a facilitator.
I also had issues with impatience as I was a high energy person, a high achiever, and have several strong talents. I looked down on others and could see no excuse for them to be careless and slackers. I always was a writer, even in highschool where I was an editor of the newsletter. But when I read how I wrote then as compared to now, my premises are so different than then. God dealt with me by letting me go through the fires of affliction big time. It took a horrible dragging thru the belly of the beast to make even a dent in my arrogance. I came out of it with much more understanding and patience for people who aren't always hoeing a straight line as good as mine...in the academic, secular realm anyway. In the moral realm I used all my energy and boldness to get all the pleasure I could, since I had given up on God and his rules.
I think it's good for people like you to hold up a high standard, as long as you attend to the mercy side for weak human nature as well as the righteousness side. Someone needs to because some of us are a bit TOO forgiving, and I do have to remind myself to not get like Aaron who evoked God's wrath for letting the children of Israel get away with idolatry.
I gather from your real life explanations that you DO a bit better than you talk. To hear your reasonings one would think you have lived in the church house itself all your life and had never been let off your leash long enough to go anywhere or do anything in the real world. But i see it isn't quite that bad. You have had moral issues to struggle with similar to the rest of us, and have had to fall upon the mercy of God even as we do from time to time. (actually every day for most of us, and for me)
We come to people with different emphasis on issues. Which is okay. I think it was Apostle Paul who discussed that variety of spiritual emphasis in one of his letters (can't recall exactly which chapter) But I just think we all need to try to stay in a balance between opposites, myself included.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/09/04 08:46 PM
Restin, I’m so sorry about your achy joints. Horse riding and gymnastics are such fun things to do, I can only begin to guess how much you miss them, and how much you long for the day you can do them again, with easy and grace and without the pain. In academy I was on the tumbling team. One year I was even the captain of the team. I enjoyed the road trips, and performing for small churches in Nebraska and Iowa and Kansas. Mostly though it was an excuse to get out of class and to hang with my friends, especially my girl friend.
Your dream home sounds wonderful. A sprawling log house in Florida, yeah, that’s what I’m talking about. Sweet! My wife and I have been busy, off and on, drawing up plans for our log home here in Flagstaff. Her dream is to have the perfect kitchen, and my dream is to build an indoor climbing wall in the living room. We both want a swimming pool with a lazy river that starts inside the house and ends up outside, with cascading waterfalls, just like the fancy resorts in Hawaii. But I’m not sure we can justify the expense as the gospel still isn’t finished being proclaimed.
My upbringing was far from idyllic. We were abandoned at 4, 5 and 6. First by my dad, and then by my mom. We ended up at Boystown, a catholic orphanage in Nebraska. We were just 3 little boys out of 1,000 homeless and unwanted urchins. I can remember being jealous, and so very sad, on birthdays and Christmas. Most of the boys received at least token toys, but I never once opened a present the entire time I was there. Naturally, it made me a bitter little boy, a mean and nasty scrapper. I was either fighting or getting ready for my next fight.
Then one day something rather beautiful happened. It was Christmas Eve, and I was standing behind the door, a place of punishment, while the boys were happily opening presents and raving about them, so joyful, so lucky. It made me so mad, simply furious. I started screaming like an insane person in a strait jacket. The counselors yelled at me to shut up, but I kept screaming. A boy came over and kicked the door in on me, which caught my bare foot and peeled back the toenail on my big toe. The rubber door stopper held fast, and I was pinned in place, the door pinching my toe. I was bleeding badly, but all I could do was stand there and cry, and cry.
That night, when the counselor released me, I ran away. I had no idea where I was or where I was going. It was freezing cold and dark, the snow was deep, but I kept pushing forward through the pitch black. Somehow I ended up at the farm where I worked as a cowhand. A light was burning in one of the stalls, so I headed that way to see what was happening. Don, my boss, was delivering a calf, but was having trouble. He was glad to see me, and together we gave birth to the cutest little girl cow I had ever seen.
Afterwards, Don asked me how I came to be there. “It’s Christmas, son, why aren’t you home playing with presents?” When I told him what had happened, we both sat there and had a good cry together. And then he did something really strange, but it felt good, it felt right. He reached over and hugged me, tight, really tight. It was the first time I remember anybody hugging me, embracing me like I was loved and appreciated. Then he held me at arms length, looking me in the eyes, with tears falling down his cheeks, and he said, “Son, I believe I have just the perfect Christmas gift for you. How would you like to raise this girl cow all by yourself? You could train her real good, and win gold medals and blue ribbons at the county and state fairs? I can’t think of anyone I’d rather have raise this fine animal than you, Mike.”
That was one of the happiest times of my life. I felt like a real person, like a real boy. No one had ever made me feel wanted before, and the feeling was like eating my very own birthday cake and unwrapping my very own presents. I used to steal wrapping paper out of the trash, after someone had a birthday, and wrap my own presents, usually an odd shaped rock or a twisted branch or some other worthless treasure. But none of that mattered anymore, not now that I was raising my very own girl cow. Her name had to start with the letter “J”, because of her birth mother, so I named her Julie. But her nickname, her real name, a name that reminded me of the best thing that had ever happened to me, her name was – Hugs. I can't see to type anymore, so it's time to stop.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/09/04 09:55 PM
I used to play squash, but I can't anymore because of my knee. Anything I do bothers it, so exercising is a challenge. I've been swimming, which also bothers it, but I think/hope it will be manageable. We can be thankful that while the outer man deteriorates, the inner man can keep improving.
I've appreciated the things you've been sharing, Michael. Haver you ever read Ty Gibson? What you wrote reminded me of a story he told. In one of his meetings there was a drunk (I'll call him Joe) who was causing a disturbance. After the meeting Ty invited him to attend the next evening. Joe said the other people didn't want him there, but Ty said it matter because he wanted him there, and he would resever a spot in the front row for him. Joe showed up sober the next evening, and Ty preached on God's character, emphasizing that God's love is irrespective or our sinfulness. Joe said the description reminded him of a time when he had done something wrong as a young child and his mother had hugged him, letting him know he was loved in spite of whatever wrong thing he had done. He expressed the thought that he wasn't sure he believed in God, but oh how he wished God could be like Ty had described Him.
Your story reminded me of this.
Posted By: Dru
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/10/04 07:23 AM
Mike,
That is the saddest story I have ever heard . I kept thinking all the way thru "this can't be true... but no it is a pastor telling this story... so it must be"
How could those grown up people not see your suffering????? I wish I could have been there.
I'm so glad that Jesus is coming and things like this will never, ever, happen again. Little children should never hurt like that.
What happened to your brothers? Are they allright now?javascript:void(0)
Heart
I hope your wife and family loves you to pieces and makes up for those awful years. Take care my friend. See you n heaven.
Dru
![[Heart]](graemlins/heart.gif)
Posted By: Will
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/10/04 09:19 AM
Incredible testimony Mike! I am glad that Jesus held your hand as He led you to where you are today from where you came from. Praise The Lord for His mercy. He has had His eye on you and knows all that you have been through.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Restin
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/10/04 11:59 PM
And your story sounds like mine, too, Mike. My mother was killed when I was one, and I was passed around from one family to the next, with some abuse in there as well. I remember the Holidays in families where it was made very clear i was not part of the inner circle.I know all the feelings you felt. I was a scrapper too, and it saved me more than once.
I really was touched by your story, Mike. Somtimes we think that the people who have the best lives are ones who have been through the very worst. Thanks to Jesus, we can be found and loved, and find the way to peace and power in life. And everything can be turned around. I do sincerely hope you have a most excellent Christmas this year, with many gifts. I've been to Flagstaff and I loved it there..not too big a town, but most everything you need...and looks like the real cowboy west thereabouts. And I also hope that some day you will have that climbing wall in the living room. If not here, in the new earth. As for me, I'm going to have a horse again if I can get my south fence rebuilt.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/11/04 12:29 AM
Tom, Dru, Will and Restin, thanx guys for hoping the best for me and my family. It means alot to know you guys care so much.
Tom, I know Ty Gibson fairly well. We were baptized together in Spokane. His wife, Sue, used to baby sit my first born. We were in ministry together for a short time. Those were exciting days.
Restin, maybe one of these days my wife and I can stop by and help rebuild that south fence? We are planning a southern states tour with our fifth wheel this winter. Who knows?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/11/04 05:29 AM
Have you read Ty's books? If so, what do you think of them?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/11/04 08:30 AM
I read all the books he wrote and published through Light Bearers, but haven't read anything he has written and published through the Pacific Press. In the early days Ty and James emphasized victory over sin, but a several years ago they made an open apology and started emphasizing mercy and forgiveness.
Posted By: Will
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/11/04 10:56 AM
Hi Mike,
Am I correct in assuming that you feel that what Ty and James have been preaching on Mercy and Forgiveness is in error? What I mean is that they are telling people that their is no such thing as victory over sin or something like that?
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/12/04 07:08 AM
Oh no, not at all. I like what everybody has to say about mercy and forgiveness - Billy Graham, Adrian Rogers, Max Lucado, Ty Gibson, Mark Finley, etc. The reason I haven't read any of Ty's newer books is because I prefer his older material, they were mostly compilations of Bible and SOP quotes. My problem isn't believing that God loves me, or that He is merciful, forgiving and longsuffering, my problem is staying connected to Jesus so I don't have to keep repenting for the same mistake over and over again.
Knowing that God will pardon me if and when I do fall into sin is definitely comforting, and it takes a great deal of the stress out of blowing it, but it makes me want to do whatever it takes to avoid blowing it again the next time I am tempted. It's not that I am freakishly focused on not sinning, I mean, I don't go around with bug eyes, trembling like someone waiting for the coffee-maker to go beep. It's not that I don't want to sin as much as I don't want to take my eyes off Jesus. I don't want to abandon Him or disappoint Him. Life without Jesus, to put it bluntly, simply sucks.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/12/04 05:10 AM
If you haven't read his newer books, how do you know you don't like them? My wife says that's like a child who hasn't tried a certain new food, but is certain he doesn't like it.
I think your problem, and not just you, but everyone, is ignorance as to God's true character. When God is seen as He really is, we will be tranformed into that same character, and that's where the victory of the 144,000 comes. When we have erroneous views regarding God's character, we are transformed by those wrong views, and cannot help to misrepresent Him.
I notice from your posts that your focus is on remaining connected to Jesus. Do you not believe that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/12/04 08:31 AM
Tom, I don't think my character development is stalled or retarded because I am failing to grasp the true nature and character of God. But, just in case I'm wrong, what do you think I'm missing or misunderstanding? I'm being sincere. I really would like to know what you think.
Do I believe salvation is by faith alone in Jesus? Yes, I do. However, my definition of saving faith may not be the same as yours, though I suspect it is. I believe saving faith is never alone. I believe it always comes coupled with the fruit of faith, that is, obedience. We are not saved by works without faith, neither are we saved by faith without works, rather our faith works because we are saved. Faith, works and salvation cannot be separated.
James
2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
FW 94
Man cannot be saved without obedience, but his works should not be of himself; Christ should work in him to will and to do of His good pleasure. {FW 94.1}
PP 279
By obedience the people were to give evidence of their faith. So all who hope to be saved by the merits of the blood of Christ should realize that they themselves have something to do in securing their salvation. While it is Christ only that can redeem us from the penalty of transgression, we are to turn from sin to obedience. Man is to be saved by faith, not by works; yet his faith must be shown by his works. {PP 279.1}
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/12/04 09:06 AM
I agree with your characterization of faith. The way I would put it is that justification is by faith which works.
If salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ, then all we need is faith. Period. We do not need to worry about being "connected". And indeed, since faith is all that is necessary, it must be by faith alone that we stay "connected." Otherwise salvation would not be by faith alone.
So given that it is by faith alone that we stay connected, and given that whatsoever is not of faith is sin, your assertion that we cannot sin while we are "connected" is a tautology. It is tantamount to saying that we cannot sin while we are not sinning. This is talking about known sin. So let me rephrase it this way. You're teaching is tantamount to saying that we cannot knowingly sin while we are not knowingly sinning.
The questions you are asking me about what you are lacking are much better directed to God. I can only make guesses based on what you have posted. But I cannot take God's place, nor would I want to.
There seems to be something you find offensive about God's mercy and forgiveness based on some things you've written, but I can't be specific about that. It could be that I'm misreading what you've written. Actually I think that's quite likely. I'm convinced in my own mind that your Calvanistic views of God's character are incorrect (I'm thinking in particular of the views relating to Christ's second coming).
I'll end by saying that if you have incorrect views of God's character, that cannot but hinder your ability to reproduce Christ's character. If you are sincere in your desire to know in what ways you are lacking in your knowledge of truth, ask God to show you. He will.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/12/04 06:50 PM
quote:
You're teaching is tantamount to saying that we cannot knowingly sin while we are not knowingly sinning.
That sounds right, but is the focus right? Since by faith we stay connected to Christ, abide in Jesus, the result being we do not and canot commit a known sin, then it makes more sense to me to emphasize being connected to Jesus. True, we don't have to "worry" about staying connected, we should just strive to do it, that's all, not worry about it. Worry is wrong, because it's based on doubt and not faith. We should do whatever it takes to keep our eyes on Jesus, whatever it takes, even if it means sweating blood resisting the temptation to take our eyes off Him. Refusing to take our eyes off Jesus is not a works trip. Not at all. It's simply what we do when we're truly in a loving relationship with Him.
I'm sorry my request was inappropriate. I didn't mean to put you in God's place when I asked you to give me your feedback. It's just that I have found that God sometimes uses a fellow Christian to point things out in my life that needs divine attention. I am already quite sure that what I believe about God's foreknowledge, and what He knows regarding the day and hour of Jesus' return, is in no way arresting my character development as a born again believer. I thought maybe you had something else in mind.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/13/04 07:13 AM
The Bible has nothing to say about being "connected" but lots to say about faith. I think the language you use is confusing, and I think most people feel that way. We've been having a conversation which has been going on a long time, and I still am not sure what you mean.
If you agree that all we need is faith (the right kind), then striving to be connected is the same thing as striving to have faith, if you want to put it that way. The Spirit of Prophesy talks about "cultivating faith." I would be comfortable with that expression.
Jones and Waggoner wrote a number of articles on this subject which are in the book "Lessons on Faith." It's on line here:
http://www.maranathamedia.com.au/Download/Books/Online_Library_Author.htm. (I'm mentioning this because I'm fond of Jones and Waggoner, and it looks to me like you are to).
I think you're absolutely wrong about God's foreknowledge not affecting your character development. Not just because I think your view is incorrect, but because *any* incorrect view of God's character will impact your character development. It has to. It is by beholding that we become changed.
This ties into our conversation on another thread. Since any view of God's character impedes our character development, it is only by beholding His true character that our characters can be fully developed. This is where the final message God has for the world, the message of the truth of God's character, comes to play. This is our work as SDA's: to find out the truth about God, and to proclaim that truth.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/13/04 08:06 AM
I use the expressions "connected to Christ" and "abide in Him" interchangeably. So does Sister White. Both mean the same thing. for example:
OHC 216
You may have a fervent spirit, your heart all aglow with the love of Jesus. Abide in Christ as the branch abides in the vine; drawing sustenance from the vine, you will be a flourishing branch, and will bear much fruit to the glory of God. Oh, you much need to gaze fixedly upon Jesus! Keep beholding His charms. As you behold they will keep brightening and enlarging until you are filled with all the fullness of God and bear much fruit to His glory. The branch is too firmly connected with the parent stock to be swayed by every breeze. Strength and vigorous growth tell to the world that your root is in Jesus, that your foundation is sure. {OHC 216.6}
Again, I cannot believe that thinking God knows the day and hour Christ's return is a truth that is hindering my character development. Believing that God foresees and predicts the future choices and consequences of mankind, which ultimately lead up to the day and hour Christ's appearing, is biblical. The evidence of this truth is the fact God gave us prophecy, which outlines details that depends on knowing, in advance, the choices and consequences of mankind.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/13/04 08:38 AM
Whether our free will is real or illustionary is an issue involved. Whether God took a risk (He tell us He did) tells us something about Him.
We don't need to rehash the open-view discussion (although I'm happy to if you want, on another thread), as it's not the main point I was making. The main I point I was making was that if our views of God's character our incorrect, those views cannot be hinder our own character development because by beholding we become changed.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/14/04 07:22 AM
Good point, Tom. What we think and feel about the way God thinks and feels will most definitely affect our character development, because, as you have already mentioned, by beholding we become changed. With this in mind, do you know of any specific false doctrines that have been identified in the Bible or the SOP as things that specifically hinder character development, doctrines that cause us to develop sinful traits of character, things that will prevent us from entering the kingdom of God?
What about people of the past, people like Luther who misunderstood the truth regarding several key doctrines, such as sabbath keeping, alcohol, eternal torment? Will these things bar the gates of heaven against him? If not, then why not? Would such false doctrines keep us from being one of the 144,000? If so, then why? Does God have two different standards, one for the resurrected saints and one for the translated saints? What will happen to the character defects of the dead when they're resurrected, if they have any?
4T 429
The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. (4T 429)
MYP 144
A well-balanced character is formed by single acts well performed. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. He who enters heaven must have a character that is without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. Naught that defileth can ever enter there. In all the redeemed host not one defect will be seen. {MYP 144.2}
If, as Sister White plainly says, our character determines our future destiny, and if Jesus will not change our character when He comes, then what about all those people who died in ignorance, who died believing false doctrines?
EDIT: added quotes.
[ November 13, 2004, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/14/04 07:41 AM
Good questions Mike.
God doesn't have different standards as far as getting into heaven is concerned. Justification is by faith in Christ. That's the standard for all.
As far as the 144,000 and being alive to see Christ come, I think inspiration is clear that there is a different standard for that. EGW talks about those who will be laid to sleep, for example, intimating that they will be in heaven, but not a part of the 144,000.
Regarding Luther, he could not have been a part of the 144,000 believing as he did. Clearly no one will be a part of the 144,000 who believe Sunday is the Sabbath, as that is the point on which all will be tested. However, if he were alive at the time of the 144,000, if such a thing makes sense to talk about, I believe he would have opened his heart to the "present truth" at that time. Similarly, he would have gotten on Noah's ark, and would not have bowed to the statues in Daniel's time, etc.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/14/04 12:45 PM
I heard that faith is a verb in hebrew rather than an adjective.
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/15/04 07:46 AM
Yes, we agree that justification by faith is the only standard upon which our eternal destiny is determined in judgment. But according to both the Bible and the SOP only those who are living up to the light God has revealed to them yield the rich rewards of justification of salvation. In this case, as Thomas pointed out, faith is a verb, an action word. Sister White concurs:
1SM 396
No one can believe with the heart unto righteousness, and obtain justification by faith, while continuing the practice of those things which the Word of God forbids, or while neglecting any known duty. (1 SM 396)
7BC 908
Justification means that the conscience, purged from dead works, is placed where it can receive the blessings of sanctification. (7 BC 908)
FW 100
God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. (FW 100)
It is clear, then, that no one will be in heaven who failed to crucify their defective traits of character, who failed to attain to the completeness of Christian character. In this specific sense, the resurrected saints and the translated saints are no different. Again, Sister White concurs. The following quotes apply to both the resurrected and the translated saints:
4T 429
The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. (4T 429)
MYP 144
A well-balanced character is formed by single acts well performed. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. He who enters heaven must have a character that is without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. Naught that defileth can ever enter there. In all the redeemed host not one defect will be seen. {MYP 144.2}
Thus, the difference between Martin Luther, Mother Tereasa and the 144,000 is certain intellectual truths, biblical knowledge, but so far as attaining to perfection of character, the only standard of salvation in judgment, there is no difference. I am NOT implying that the biblical truths that distinquish them are unimportant, no, not at all. But in judgment, what matters for salvation, is whether or not we have overcome as Jesus overcame, that is, whether or not we successfully and consistently stay connected to God and resist the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by our sinful nature - that's what it means to overcome as Jesus overcame. See Rev 3:21.
Tom, our differences on this topic are astounding and significant, the implications are worlds apart. Hopefully others will join in on this study and help make headway.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/14/04 10:55 PM
quote:
There is not a point that needs to be dwelt upon more earnestly, repeated more frequently, or established more firmly in the minds of all than the impossibility of fallen man meriting anything by his own best good works. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone. (FW 18)
quote:
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:28, 29)
I believe that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Synonymns for faith would include "appreciation" and "gratitude". Hence true faith always is manifest in good works as one cannot appreciate the love of God nor be grateful to Him for the salvation freely given in Christ without that appreciation/gratitude being made manifest in ones works.
What is your definition of faith? Does it make faith into a work? Do we merit our salvation? Or is it a free gift?
Regarding the quotes involving character, it is clear that character is the key question. Are our characters in harmony with God? If we were to come into contact with God face to face, what would our response be? Would we love Him? Would we want to be in His presence? Or would His presence make us uncomfortable? That's the bottom line, isn't it?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/14/04 11:10 PM
No, the bottom line is - "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." 1 Cor 2:2. Freedom from sin, freedom to serve Him - that's the bottom line, in my opinion.
My definition of faith is - Faith that works by love and purifies the soul. We are saved "unto" good works, not because "of" our good works. Our good works honor and glorify God, like a light in a dark place. Yes, we are saved by faith alone, but genuine faith is never alone, good works is always the fruit of faith. To believe on Jesus is to behave like Jesus. We cannot divorce faith and works and salvation. They are inseparable.
Galatians
5:6 Faith which worketh by love.
Ephesians
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Matthew
5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
John
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
FW 100
God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. (FW 100)
[ November 14, 2004, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/14/04 11:35 PM
quote:
FW 100
God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. (FW 100)
This quote along with the bible passages which it is based on is the ideal, and may also be something which many of us dont understand. In my case it is so much easier to look for wisdom like the greeks (1 Corinthians 1:22 (18-31)) by personality, the way of the culture of the west and may I add also the culture of the SDA church. Others may be likewise inclined for miracles like the jews by personality and church culture but how many knows what it truly is to live from the heart?
/Thomas
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/14/04 11:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
I believe that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Synonymns for faith would include "appreciation" and "gratitude". Hence true faith always is manifest in good works as one cannot appreciate the love of God nor be grateful to Him for the salvation freely given in Christ without that appreciation/gratitude being made manifest in ones works.
What is your definition of faith? Does it make faith into a work? Do we merit our salvation? Or is it a free gift?
I heard an illustration for the "faith is a verb" idea. Its about a wooden chair. You have faith that it will hold you when you sit down on it. If you loudly declare your faith in its capability to hold you but do not (dare?) place your weight on it, do you then really have faith in it? Or in the words of James
quote:
Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[4] ? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[5] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
Is salvation then earned? No. Becourse the faith we have we have recieved from God.
quote:
Ephesians 2
7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
1 Corinthians 12
8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[1] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[2]
/Thomas
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/15/04 12:35 AM
I wrote:
quote:
Regarding the quotes involving character, it is clear that character is the key question. Are our characters in harmony with God? If we were to come into contact with God face to face, what would our response be? Would we love Him? Would we want to be in His presence? Or would His presence make us uncomfortable? That's the bottom line, isn't it?
To which you replied, no, the bottom line is beholding Christ. I'm confused. Do be behold the character of someone who we don't love? Or someone whose presence makes us uncomfortable? Exactly what is it that I wrote that you are disagreeing with?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/15/04 03:06 AM
Perhaps we were talking about two different issues? I believe the bottom line here on earth is overcoming sin and imitating the example of Jesus. It looks like you were talking about feeling loved and comfortable in heaven. I know God loves me, and it motivates me to overcome sin and to imitate the example of Jesus.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/15/04 03:42 AM
Let's go back to what I wrote:
quote:
Regarding the quotes involving character, it is clear that character is the key question. Are our characters in harmony with God? If we were to come into contact with God face to face, what would our response be? Would we love Him? Would we want to be in His presence? Or would His presence make us uncomfortable? That's the bottom line, isn't it?
Do you think God will take people into heaven who would not be comfortable in His presence? You'll notice the rest of the quotation talks about our having characters in harmony with God. Do you disagree with that? I'm still not clear what you're disagreeing with.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/15/04 05:57 AM
Having characters in harmony with God's law and will is what makes it possible to stand in the presence of God without fear, in total peace of mind. In this I'm sure we agree. What we don't seem to agree upon is whether or not everyone must attain to the completeness of Christian character in order to be in heaven. I believe all those quotes plainly say, Yes, if we hope to enjoy bliss with Jesus for eternity we must consent and cooperate with the Holy Spirit to crucify our old man habits of sin, and imitate the sinless example of Jesus.
I believe this experience is available to us the moment we are born again. You seem to believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that only the 144,000 will be able to attain to the completeness of character perfection, because the truth necessary to have this experience is not yet available, and will become available only during the time of the 144,000.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/15/04 07:18 AM
I mentioned in an earlier post the "perfection of character" can mean different things depending on the context. In terms of going to heaven, I believe that God will take all those to heaven who would be happy there. Those who would be happy there are those whose characters are in harmony with Him, which is the same set of people as those who are justified by faith.
If by "perfection of character" you mean not commiting known sins, then I believe this has been possible for all who have ever lived.
The 144,000 will stand before God without a mediator. This experience is a new experience, which includes victory over all sin, not just known sin. Christ's work in the Most Holy Place involves cleansing us from unknown sin. This was not possible before 1844. This experience is dependent on new light, which the Spirit of Prophesy tells us began in 1888. A. T. Jones' sermons from 1895 deal with this theme at length, and he quotes abudantly from the Spirit of Prophesy in his sermons. His book "The Consecrated Way to Perfection" also touches on this theme, although not in as much detail as the aforementioned sermons.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/15/04 07:45 AM
Amen! I agree with everything you just posted. Can you believe it? The completeness of Christian character has been available to everyone since beginning of time as it relates to known sin, and as it relates to unknown sin since 1844 (especially since 1888).
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/15/04 03:23 PM
Mike,
To be straightforward with you, this passage below reminds me of you. Regardless of what it is you believe, it just seems to me that you have revolved everything around that to the point of an obsession. Your particular "thing" is this idea about moral and intellectual perfection.
It doesnt matter WHY a person becomes obsessed with a particular idea... no matter how "sad" the thing is that made him that way. Morris Venden had a problem with a certain sin and he developed his entire theology around a particular thing till finally everything else didnt matter... (thats what his ghost writer told me) ... finally, it became the only thing he could ever seem to talk about. His entire theology revolved around having a "relationship" with Jesus, which sounds good on the surface.
Testimonies for the Church Volume Five
"That which Brother D calls light is apparently harmless; it does not look as though anyone could be injured by it. But, brethren, it is Satan's device, his entering wedge. This has been tried again and again. One accepts some new and original idea which does not seem to conflict with the truth. He talks of it and dwells upon it until it seems to him to be clothed with beauty and importance, for Satan has power to give this false appearance. At last it becomes the all-absorbing theme, the one great point around which everything centers; and the truth is uprooted from the heart."
I realize me saying this wont be the most popular thing in the world with the other people on this forum, but for some reason its what comes to mind when I think of you.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/16/04 07:09 AM
Claudia, thank you for the compliment, though I realize you meant it as a loving rebuke and warning. Accusing me of being obsessed with rightousness by faith is flattering. It's like the classic anecdote, If you were accused of being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to condemn you?
But the truth of matter is, I'm not as obsessed with it as I would like to be, as I should be. Take a look around the various threads on MSDAOL and you will see how diversified my interests are. I know you believe the completeness of Christian character is possible, but you don't believe it is possible now, and yet you cannot supply the necessary inspired passages to support your erroneous view. Perhaps this is why you are so disturbed with my take on this topic?
1 Corinthians
2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
6T 42
One subject of emulation must swallow up all others--who will most nearly resemble Christ in character? who will most entirely hide self in Jesus? {6T 42.2}
SD 259
One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other,--Christ our righteousness. {SD 259.3}
Instead of finding fault with those who long to know Christ and Him crucified, to experience righteousness by faith, our time and energy would be better spent encouraging each other to study it more thoroughly. May this one subject swallow up all others - and soon!
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/16/04 07:51 AM
quote:
Amen! I agree with everything you just posted. Can you believe it? The completeness of Christian character has been available to everyone since beginning of time as it relates to known sin, and as it relates to unknown sin since 1844 (especially since 1888).
Good! Since you're going to be on hiatus, I suppose this is a good place to pause. In agreement. Yay!
Posted By: Boblee
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/22/04 06:57 AM
A request was made for a definition of "faith." Permit me to suggest what I believe defines faith. The first is communication (Heb 10:17 NIV, "faith comes from hearing the message"). Second, we must believe the message (the usual definition of faith). Third, we must act on the message (James 2:14-26, "faith by itself, not accompanied by action, is dead" [v 17] and "faith without deeds is dead [v26]). It takes all three elements before we have faith.
We might note that if we believe something without some confirming communication or information we merely have hope and action without communication or knowledge is presumption. There is also doing something you don't believe in, that's like kissing up to the boss. None of these constitute faith. Faith must include all three elements: communication, belief, and action.
RL
Posted By: Tom
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/22/04 08:54 AM
A definition of faith I like is faith is a heart appreciation of the love of God, especially as revealed at the cross.
Posted By: D R
Re: What's wrong with "sinning not" - 11/22/04 04:32 PM
Praise God! These testimonies are what its all about! Thank God we are all Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus! Soon, very Soon we will be with Him, looking over the plans of our "dream homes". This world has so much pain and hurt BUT in Him we have the Blessed Hope!
My upbringing seems so ideal as I read part of your past Mike and Restin.
I grew up in a Maritime Middle Class single detatched home. No abuse at all (except a few spanks which I deserved) my parents were Christians (United Church of Canada) they have lived at the same place here in Moncton for almost 40 years. When I was 7 or 8, my brother who was 13 asked our MInister questions about the Saturday Sabbath issue, and it was not long after that we as a family began attending the SDA Church here in Moncton. (OUR NEIGHBOURS WERE SDA CHRISTIANS! AND THEY LET THEIR LIGHTS SHINE FOR HIM!)
Our family, my Mom, Dad, Brother (his wife and 2 kids) and I (my wife and our boy)are all still active in the church.
-Praise God for this lighthouse, His church!
Shalom