Posted By: Tom
Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/06/04 08:35 AM
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Was it God's intention that sin exist?
Posted By: Boblee
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/10/04 06:57 AM
Interesting question, Tom. There doesn't seem to be a clear answer to it in the Bible so our discussion of whether God intended for sin to exist can only be speculation. I notice you didn't present your answer, so maybe I can offer mine.
The Bible clearly states that God not only gave man free will, but gave him dominion over all the fauna and charged him to subdue the Earth (Gen 1:28). In the first few chapters of Genesis God asked Adam to make decisions such as what to name the animals (Gen 2:19, 20). Adam was put in charge of taking care of the Garden and later he named his own wife (Gen 3:20). Throughout Scripture, people are ask to make decisions. Obviously if man has freedom of choice, he could choose to sin (whatever that means) so God made provision for that possibility. But nowhere in Scripture is there any indication that that choice is inevitable. In fact, if it were "inevitable," then humans didn't have freedom of choice after all, did they.
RL
The Bible clearly states that God not only gave man free will, but gave him dominion over all the fauna and charged him to subdue the Earth (Gen 1:28). In the first few chapters of Genesis God asked Adam to make decisions such as what to name the animals (Gen 2:19, 20). Adam was put in charge of taking care of the Garden and later he named his own wife (Gen 3:20). Throughout Scripture, people are ask to make decisions. Obviously if man has freedom of choice, he could choose to sin (whatever that means) so God made provision for that possibility. But nowhere in Scripture is there any indication that that choice is inevitable. In fact, if it were "inevitable," then humans didn't have freedom of choice after all, did they.
RL
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/11/04 10:20 AM
My answer is that in no way did God intend for sin to occur. It would be impossible for Him to intend it. Sin is evil. It is contrary to His will. How could God will that something exist which is contrary to His will?
God is love, and knows that sin causes suffering and destoys. God would rather die Himself than to allow His creatures to die. He loved us so much, He risked losing His Son for all eternity.
It would be a terrible blight on God's character to say that He inteneded for sin to occur. That's what I think.
God is love, and knows that sin causes suffering and destoys. God would rather die Himself than to allow His creatures to die. He loved us so much, He risked losing His Son for all eternity.
It would be a terrible blight on God's character to say that He inteneded for sin to occur. That's what I think.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/12/04 07:27 AM
Was sinning inevtiable? Of course it was. If you disagree, then you are saying God is not in control. If God is incapable of foreseeing sinning, then He is incapable of making provision for it in advance. God knew we would choose to sin, and yet He chose to create us anyhow. Did He intend for sin to exist? He certainly wasn't hoping we would sin, but He did choose to create us, in spite of the fact He knew we would sin.
It wasn't His will or desire that sinning should happen, but neither was He willing not to create us. He was willing to make provision for sin, and for us, in advance, knowing that Jesus would have to die to redeem us from sin and death. That tells me many things, one thing it tells me for sure, and that is that God is in control, and I can trust Him to handle things wisely, knowing He has my best interest in mind, and that of the entire universe, including His own.
AG 23
The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal" (Rom. 16:5, R.V.). It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. . . . God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." {AG 23.4}
As soon as there was sin, there was a Saviour. Christ knew that He would have to suffer, yet He became man's substitute. As soon as Adam sinned, the Son of God presented Himself as surety for the human race, with just as much power to avert the doom pronounced upon the guilty as when He died upon the cross of Calvary. {AG 23.5}
AG 129
The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. . . . Therefore redemption was not an afterthought . . . but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {AG 129.2}
It wasn't His will or desire that sinning should happen, but neither was He willing not to create us. He was willing to make provision for sin, and for us, in advance, knowing that Jesus would have to die to redeem us from sin and death. That tells me many things, one thing it tells me for sure, and that is that God is in control, and I can trust Him to handle things wisely, knowing He has my best interest in mind, and that of the entire universe, including His own.
AG 23
The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal" (Rom. 16:5, R.V.). It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. . . . God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." {AG 23.4}
As soon as there was sin, there was a Saviour. Christ knew that He would have to suffer, yet He became man's substitute. As soon as Adam sinned, the Son of God presented Himself as surety for the human race, with just as much power to avert the doom pronounced upon the guilty as when He died upon the cross of Calvary. {AG 23.5}
AG 129
The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. . . . Therefore redemption was not an afterthought . . . but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {AG 129.2}
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/12/04 07:48 AM
Topic: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
My answer is that in no way did God intend for sin to occur. It would be impossible for Him to intend it. Sin is evil. It is contrary to His will. How could God will that something exist which is contrary to His will?
God is love, and knows that sin causes suffering and destoys. God would rather die Himself than to allow His creatures to die. He loved us so much, He risked losing His Son for all eternity.
It would be a terrible blight on God's character to say that He inteneded for sin to occur. That's what I think.
- - - - Quoted from Tom Ewall post - - - - -
First we must ask: What is God intention in creating angels in his image and his likeness, knowing that Lucifer would rebel and be the source and author of sin that at the end would cost Christ’ life?
It is God intention to create intelligent living beings in his image and likeness with free will choice, knowing the risk before hand that sin will emerge and exist due to Lucifer rebellion.
That’s why God must be responsible for the outcome, for the existence of sin.
This make me think that God, knowing by creating the angels would caused sin emerge but still continue with his creating, then he indeed wants for sin to exist, but he has the answer and remedy for it, thus, by that, showing his almighty, his holiness, his love and his justice. Showing the universe that there is no other God as he is, proving the love of his Son, Creator of heaven and earth against himself and his creation.
In His love
James S
My answer is that in no way did God intend for sin to occur. It would be impossible for Him to intend it. Sin is evil. It is contrary to His will. How could God will that something exist which is contrary to His will?
God is love, and knows that sin causes suffering and destoys. God would rather die Himself than to allow His creatures to die. He loved us so much, He risked losing His Son for all eternity.
It would be a terrible blight on God's character to say that He inteneded for sin to occur. That's what I think.
- - - - Quoted from Tom Ewall post - - - - -
First we must ask: What is God intention in creating angels in his image and his likeness, knowing that Lucifer would rebel and be the source and author of sin that at the end would cost Christ’ life?
It is God intention to create intelligent living beings in his image and likeness with free will choice, knowing the risk before hand that sin will emerge and exist due to Lucifer rebellion.
That’s why God must be responsible for the outcome, for the existence of sin.
This make me think that God, knowing by creating the angels would caused sin emerge but still continue with his creating, then he indeed wants for sin to exist, but he has the answer and remedy for it, thus, by that, showing his almighty, his holiness, his love and his justice. Showing the universe that there is no other God as he is, proving the love of his Son, Creator of heaven and earth against himself and his creation.
In His love
James S
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/12/04 08:44 AM
James, I'll respond to your thoughts tomorrow. Thanks for sharing them.
Mike, what you wrote is self-contradictory. I'll try to make that clear.
Mike: Was sinning inevtiable? Of course it was.
Tom: OK, sin is inevitable. Let's hold this thought.
Mike: If you disagree, then you are saying God is not in control. If God is incapable of foreseeing sinning, then He is incapable of making provision for it in advance.
Tom: I agree if God could not forsee sinning, He could not make provision for it. But note that God need only forsee the possibility of sin in order to make provision for it.
The actual example the Spirit of Prophesy uses for this very concept, a brilliant one I think, is the following. Our bodies have the capacity to heal themselves before we are injured. When the injury happens, then the healing processes start. The healing processes were always in place, but they are not activated until needed. Similarly, grace and mercy were always a part of God's character, but they were not manifested until necessary.
Mike: God knew we would choose to sin, and yet He chose to create us anyhow. Did He intend for sin to exist? He certainly wasn't hoping we would sin,
Tom: What sense does it make to speak of God "hoping," given your view of things? This seems to me a totally non-sensical word to use. God doesn't "hope." He's in control. He simply brings to pass that which He has forseen.
Mike: but He did choose to create us, in spite of the fact He knew we would sin.
It wasn't His will or desire that sinning should happen,
Tom: This is contradictory to what you wrote above. If sin was inevitable, then it was His will/desire that sinning should happen. This should be clear.
God started a process which could have only one end. The process had that end. The thing which happened could only have happened because God willed it. Again, this should be obvious.
Mike, what you wrote is self-contradictory. I'll try to make that clear.
Mike: Was sinning inevtiable? Of course it was.
Tom: OK, sin is inevitable. Let's hold this thought.
Mike: If you disagree, then you are saying God is not in control. If God is incapable of foreseeing sinning, then He is incapable of making provision for it in advance.
Tom: I agree if God could not forsee sinning, He could not make provision for it. But note that God need only forsee the possibility of sin in order to make provision for it.
The actual example the Spirit of Prophesy uses for this very concept, a brilliant one I think, is the following. Our bodies have the capacity to heal themselves before we are injured. When the injury happens, then the healing processes start. The healing processes were always in place, but they are not activated until needed. Similarly, grace and mercy were always a part of God's character, but they were not manifested until necessary.
Mike: God knew we would choose to sin, and yet He chose to create us anyhow. Did He intend for sin to exist? He certainly wasn't hoping we would sin,
Tom: What sense does it make to speak of God "hoping," given your view of things? This seems to me a totally non-sensical word to use. God doesn't "hope." He's in control. He simply brings to pass that which He has forseen.
Mike: but He did choose to create us, in spite of the fact He knew we would sin.
It wasn't His will or desire that sinning should happen,
Tom: This is contradictory to what you wrote above. If sin was inevitable, then it was His will/desire that sinning should happen. This should be clear.
God started a process which could have only one end. The process had that end. The thing which happened could only have happened because God willed it. Again, this should be obvious.
Posted By: Boblee
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/15/04 06:59 AM
As I was growing up, the attitude Mike is presenting was ingrown in all of us Adventists. God's capabilities included omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, and of course He knew all details of the past, present, and future.
It's interesting that this weeks Sabbath School lesson presents the enigma which knocked a chink in my understanding. Let me explain.
In Daniel 9, we find Daniel remembering that Jeremiah predicted the Jewish captivity would last for seventy years ((Jer. 25:11, 29:10 ff). Babylon had been punished for her guilt (vss 12-14) and was gone. So Daniel started praying as God suggested in v 29:12. As Daniel was praying, Gabriel showed up to give him understanding. But instead of talking about going home, Gabriel started talking about seventy weeks being decreed upon Daniel's people. That must have been a shock to Daniel. He remembered that a few years previous, Gabriel had told him about a goat and a ram and made it clear that those beasts represented nations that would come in the future, even "the distant future" (Dan 8:26). Within that prophecy was a time prophecy of 2300 days which by the context must have represented 2300 years. So Daniel surmised that the 70 weeks must also represent years. Remembering God's warning in Leviticus 26:18 ff that if the people remained hostile toward God, He would "punish you for your sins seven times over" (v18, 21, 24, 28), Daniel feared that God was now making good on that commitment by adding seven times 70 years to the original 70 years they had been in captivity. It made him sick.
It's not clear how long it was from the first year of Darius (Dan. 9:1) to the third year of Cyrus (Dan 10:1), but it probably wasn't very long. However long it was, Daniel went into mourning. Three whole weeks he couldn't understand what was going on. But then comes the interesting part. Suddenly he was confronted by a majestic being. A being who said, "Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you." The being went on to say that he had been sent three weeks previously to get Daniel's prayer answered, apparently to get the go-ahead for the trip back to Jerusalem. But the Persian king resisted him those 21 days! So he called for help and Michael came to help him (Dan 10:12, 13). Later he tells Daniel that as soon as he explains what Daniel wants to know, he is going back to fight some more with the prince of Persia (v20).
While I'm reading this, I'm thinking: If God really knows the future, when the seventy years were up, why didn't it just happen? What's this twenty-one day delay all about? And why did this angel need help to get a prophecy fulfilled? Michael yet. Then after a few days with Daniel he expected to go back and fight some more? What happened to God's foreknowledge? That question started me on a search of God's capabilities. It was fascinating. Without further prejudicing anyone's thinking, let me challenge others to make the same search and see how it compares with what I've learned.
RL
It's interesting that this weeks Sabbath School lesson presents the enigma which knocked a chink in my understanding. Let me explain.
In Daniel 9, we find Daniel remembering that Jeremiah predicted the Jewish captivity would last for seventy years ((Jer. 25:11, 29:10 ff). Babylon had been punished for her guilt (vss 12-14) and was gone. So Daniel started praying as God suggested in v 29:12. As Daniel was praying, Gabriel showed up to give him understanding. But instead of talking about going home, Gabriel started talking about seventy weeks being decreed upon Daniel's people. That must have been a shock to Daniel. He remembered that a few years previous, Gabriel had told him about a goat and a ram and made it clear that those beasts represented nations that would come in the future, even "the distant future" (Dan 8:26). Within that prophecy was a time prophecy of 2300 days which by the context must have represented 2300 years. So Daniel surmised that the 70 weeks must also represent years. Remembering God's warning in Leviticus 26:18 ff that if the people remained hostile toward God, He would "punish you for your sins seven times over" (v18, 21, 24, 28), Daniel feared that God was now making good on that commitment by adding seven times 70 years to the original 70 years they had been in captivity. It made him sick.
It's not clear how long it was from the first year of Darius (Dan. 9:1) to the third year of Cyrus (Dan 10:1), but it probably wasn't very long. However long it was, Daniel went into mourning. Three whole weeks he couldn't understand what was going on. But then comes the interesting part. Suddenly he was confronted by a majestic being. A being who said, "Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you." The being went on to say that he had been sent three weeks previously to get Daniel's prayer answered, apparently to get the go-ahead for the trip back to Jerusalem. But the Persian king resisted him those 21 days! So he called for help and Michael came to help him (Dan 10:12, 13). Later he tells Daniel that as soon as he explains what Daniel wants to know, he is going back to fight some more with the prince of Persia (v20).
While I'm reading this, I'm thinking: If God really knows the future, when the seventy years were up, why didn't it just happen? What's this twenty-one day delay all about? And why did this angel need help to get a prophecy fulfilled? Michael yet. Then after a few days with Daniel he expected to go back and fight some more? What happened to God's foreknowledge? That question started me on a search of God's capabilities. It was fascinating. Without further prejudicing anyone's thinking, let me challenge others to make the same search and see how it compares with what I've learned.
RL
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/15/04 08:13 AM
This was a long tomorrow. Sorry about that James.
James: First we must ask: What is God intention in creating angels in his image and his likeness, knowing that Lucifer would rebel and be the source and author of sin that at the end would cost Christ’ life?
Tom: that Lucifer "would" rebel, or "could" rebel? Your kind of assuming the conclusion, but let's see where it goes.
James: It is God intention to create intelligent living beings in his image and likeness with free will choice, knowing the risk before hand that sin will emerge and exist due to Lucifer rebellion.
Tom: Again, "will" or "might"?
James: That’s why God must be responsible for the outcome, for the existence of sin.
Tom: OK, this is where this ends. And that's the problem, because inspiration tells us plainly that God is not responsible for the entrance of sin.
Tom: This would be the logical conclusion, but it is contrary to inspiration, and contrary to God's character. Given God's hatred of sin (because of the misery and suffing it causes, and being contrary to His very being), it is inconceivable that He could will its existence.
James: but he has the answer and remedy for it, thus, by that, showing his almighty, his holiness, his love and his justice. Showing the universe that there is no other God as he is, proving the love of his Son, Creator of heaven and earth against himself and his creation.
Tom: If it is God who caused sin to exist, it hardly shows His holiness, love or justice. On the contrary, it proves that Satan is right, and God is how he has accused Him of being.
But God is not like that! He really is holy, loving and just. He is, as He tells us through His prophet, entirely innocent -- not in the least responsible for sin.
James: First we must ask: What is God intention in creating angels in his image and his likeness, knowing that Lucifer would rebel and be the source and author of sin that at the end would cost Christ’ life?
Tom: that Lucifer "would" rebel, or "could" rebel? Your kind of assuming the conclusion, but let's see where it goes.
James: It is God intention to create intelligent living beings in his image and likeness with free will choice, knowing the risk before hand that sin will emerge and exist due to Lucifer rebellion.
Tom: Again, "will" or "might"?
James: That’s why God must be responsible for the outcome, for the existence of sin.
Tom: OK, this is where this ends. And that's the problem, because inspiration tells us plainly that God is not responsible for the entrance of sin.
quote:James: This make me think that God, knowing by creating the angels would caused sin emerge but still continue with his creating, then he indeed wants for sin to exist,
Nothing is more plainly taught in
Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin (GC 493)
Tom: This would be the logical conclusion, but it is contrary to inspiration, and contrary to God's character. Given God's hatred of sin (because of the misery and suffing it causes, and being contrary to His very being), it is inconceivable that He could will its existence.
James: but he has the answer and remedy for it, thus, by that, showing his almighty, his holiness, his love and his justice. Showing the universe that there is no other God as he is, proving the love of his Son, Creator of heaven and earth against himself and his creation.
Tom: If it is God who caused sin to exist, it hardly shows His holiness, love or justice. On the contrary, it proves that Satan is right, and God is how he has accused Him of being.
But God is not like that! He really is holy, loving and just. He is, as He tells us through His prophet, entirely innocent -- not in the least responsible for sin.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/20/04 02:22 PM
Tom: If it is God who caused sin to exist, it hardly shows His holiness, love or justice. On the contrary, it proves that Satan is right, and God is how he has accused Him of being.
But God is not like that! He really is holy, loving and just. He is, as He tells us through His prophet, entirely innocent -- not in the least responsible for sin.
- - - - - Quoted from Tom Ewall post - - - - -
God did not cause sin to exist, God created intelligent living beings with the free will to choose, knowing they might choose to serve their own will which is against his will and caused sin exist.
God created Lucifer, Lucifer sinned;
God created men, men sinned;
What is the source of their sin? Their power of thinking and analyzing! What made them sin? Their free will choice.
Where they got these abilities? From God who created them.
Would you say that God is not responsible for all of these? If not, no one could judge him and justify him as a loving God!!!
God is not the creator of sin, but through his creations, sin does exist, and along with it; death and suffering.
Therefore, he shows his responsibility by sending Christ to safe us.
If he let us to our selves, kicking the world to the end of the universe and forget about us, what would happen to us? Would we still say that God is love?
I think God really would not be responsible for the existing of sin and death IF he created Lucifer, the angels and us with NO freedom of choice. All what we can do is just doing the good and holy things.
In His love
James S
But God is not like that! He really is holy, loving and just. He is, as He tells us through His prophet, entirely innocent -- not in the least responsible for sin.
- - - - - Quoted from Tom Ewall post - - - - -
God did not cause sin to exist, God created intelligent living beings with the free will to choose, knowing they might choose to serve their own will which is against his will and caused sin exist.
God created Lucifer, Lucifer sinned;
God created men, men sinned;
What is the source of their sin? Their power of thinking and analyzing! What made them sin? Their free will choice.
Where they got these abilities? From God who created them.
Would you say that God is not responsible for all of these? If not, no one could judge him and justify him as a loving God!!!
God is not the creator of sin, but through his creations, sin does exist, and along with it; death and suffering.
Therefore, he shows his responsibility by sending Christ to safe us.
If he let us to our selves, kicking the world to the end of the universe and forget about us, what would happen to us? Would we still say that God is love?
I think God really would not be responsible for the existing of sin and death IF he created Lucifer, the angels and us with NO freedom of choice. All what we can do is just doing the good and holy things.
In His love
James S
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/21/04 07:16 AM
Please go on, Boblee...I'm very interested in your researches.
Sorry, James I still cannot understand your posts after all these years. It seems like you are saying God is good because He rescues us from the evil that is His fault. He creates and kills; sends evil angels and good ones to do His work....It's very similar to what is taught at our local ugama school.(The mandatory Muslim indoctrination school for young children/young adults)
{edited to expalin foriegn language term}
[ December 22, 2004, 03:23 AM: Message edited by: Ikan ]
Sorry, James I still cannot understand your posts after all these years. It seems like you are saying God is good because He rescues us from the evil that is His fault. He creates and kills; sends evil angels and good ones to do His work....It's very similar to what is taught at our local ugama school.(The mandatory Muslim indoctrination school for young children/young adults)
{edited to expalin foriegn language term}
[ December 22, 2004, 03:23 AM: Message edited by: Ikan ]
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/21/04 08:14 PM
quote:This is in harmony with what I have been saying. God knew of the possibility of sin, but sin was not inevitable. It arose because free moral agents chose to rebel against God, but it was not God's intention that it should exist.
God did not cause sin to exist, God created intelligent living beings with the free will to choose, knowing they might choose to serve their own will which is against his will and caused sin exist.
Posted By: Boblee
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/22/04 08:10 AM
Thanks, Ikan, for the invitation to continue discussing my findings based on Daniel 10.
What I did was to start with Genesis 1:1 and read through to Revelation 22:21 writing down every statement I found regarding the characteristics of God. While I was doing that, I also wrote down similar statements pertaining to the form of Earth, sea, and heaven; pertaining to transportation, appearance, and mode of communication of God or angels; promises regarding Canaan's land; and promises regarding David's kingdom. It was quite a list.
In doing so, I noticed an interesting discrepancy that helped me understand why many apparently false doctrines are so universal today, even among us. There were things God said about Himself and things God was observed doing. But there were also characteristics people attributed to God like the concepts of omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence that often contradicted the things God said about Himself and what people observed Him doing. What people said about God was interpreted as if God had said these things. Rev 19:6 KJV ("the lord God omnipotent reigneth") is an obvious example. Also, I found there are better ways to interpret many texts used today to support various concepts. For instance regarding foreknowledge, the text which says God knows the end from the beginning (Isa 46:10) is often interpreted to say God knows everything in between. But God doesn't say that. In verse 11, God says "What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do." Isn't it obvious that if God is capable of planning something, He must not know beforehand what He is going to plan!? And if God doesn't know what He is going to do until He plans it, how can He know what I am going to do until I actually do it or at least decide to do it?
In the context of the current discussion, I might suggest that if God really did know Adam would eat the "apple," then He would not have put the "tree of life" in that garden! Or more succinctly, if He knew Adam would rebel, He wouldn't even have made Adam. He would have created some other human instead. But He did make Adam and Eve and obviously expected them to live forever which to me rules out any possibility that God can see into the future beyond His own plans.
RL
What I did was to start with Genesis 1:1 and read through to Revelation 22:21 writing down every statement I found regarding the characteristics of God. While I was doing that, I also wrote down similar statements pertaining to the form of Earth, sea, and heaven; pertaining to transportation, appearance, and mode of communication of God or angels; promises regarding Canaan's land; and promises regarding David's kingdom. It was quite a list.
In doing so, I noticed an interesting discrepancy that helped me understand why many apparently false doctrines are so universal today, even among us. There were things God said about Himself and things God was observed doing. But there were also characteristics people attributed to God like the concepts of omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence that often contradicted the things God said about Himself and what people observed Him doing. What people said about God was interpreted as if God had said these things. Rev 19:6 KJV ("the lord God omnipotent reigneth") is an obvious example. Also, I found there are better ways to interpret many texts used today to support various concepts. For instance regarding foreknowledge, the text which says God knows the end from the beginning (Isa 46:10) is often interpreted to say God knows everything in between. But God doesn't say that. In verse 11, God says "What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do." Isn't it obvious that if God is capable of planning something, He must not know beforehand what He is going to plan!? And if God doesn't know what He is going to do until He plans it, how can He know what I am going to do until I actually do it or at least decide to do it?
In the context of the current discussion, I might suggest that if God really did know Adam would eat the "apple," then He would not have put the "tree of life" in that garden! Or more succinctly, if He knew Adam would rebel, He wouldn't even have made Adam. He would have created some other human instead. But He did make Adam and Eve and obviously expected them to live forever which to me rules out any possibility that God can see into the future beyond His own plans.
RL
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/22/04 09:34 PM
quote:Regarding God seeing the end from the beginning, I understand that to mean that God know the end of whichever path you take.
In the context of the current discussion, I might suggest that if God really did know Adam would eat the "apple," then He would not have put the "tree of life" in that garden! Or more succinctly, if He knew Adam would rebel, He wouldn't even have made Adam. He would have created some other human instead. But He did make Adam and Eve and obviously expected them to live forever which to me rules out any possibility that God can see into the future beyond His own plans.
I agree with your statement that God would not have created Adam if He had known as a certainty that Adam would sin -- He would have created some other human being insted. And the same thing applies to Lucifer. If God chose to create Lucifer knowing that he would sin, not could but would, then clearly He is responsible for the entrance of sin, which is both contrary to His character and inspiration.
I disagree a bit I think regarding the statement that God cannot see beyond His own plans, at least in terms of how to put things. I would say that God sees the future completely, but that what He sees is the future as it is. That is to say, the future is not fixed, like a T.V. rerun, but it is partially settled and partially open. The open part of the future God sees as open. So He sees everything that can happen. What actually will happen is determined by free moral agents.
Posted By: Doug Meister
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/23/04 10:27 AM
[ January 01, 2005, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/24/04 07:28 AM
I agree, Doug. But this insight doesn't mean God wanted us to sin, or that it was His great desire to see us sin and suffer. No way. But He clearly foresaw its existence, and then He made provision to deal with it and us - before we were created. Prophecy proves God knows the end from the beginning, like watching a rerun on TV.
But the knowing the outcome of our choices, even before we are born, no more robs us of our freedom to choose than watching a rerun means we manipulated the ending. Foreknowledge is merely reporting the facts before they happen. Which is good news. It means God is in control, and we don't have to worry if prophecy is right or wrong, especially the one where God promises sin will never happen again - throughout eternity.
DA 22
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. {DA 22.2}
AG 129
But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. {AG 129.2}
PP 43
He that ruleth in the heavens is the one who sees the end from the beginning--the one before whom the mysteries of the past and the future are alike outspread, and who, beyond the woe and darkness and ruin that sin has wrought, beholds the accomplishment of His own purposes of love and blessing. {PP 43.1}
But the knowing the outcome of our choices, even before we are born, no more robs us of our freedom to choose than watching a rerun means we manipulated the ending. Foreknowledge is merely reporting the facts before they happen. Which is good news. It means God is in control, and we don't have to worry if prophecy is right or wrong, especially the one where God promises sin will never happen again - throughout eternity.
DA 22
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. {DA 22.2}
AG 129
But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. {AG 129.2}
PP 43
He that ruleth in the heavens is the one who sees the end from the beginning--the one before whom the mysteries of the past and the future are alike outspread, and who, beyond the woe and darkness and ruin that sin has wrought, beholds the accomplishment of His own purposes of love and blessing. {PP 43.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/23/04 08:31 PM
God is not a good guesser. He knows the end from beginning. The following passages make this truth abundantly, and wonderfully, plain. Please note that it is the enemies of God who doubt and ridicule His divine foreknowledge of events.
Jeremiah
1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Acts
2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Romans
8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
1 Peter
1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3SP 45
The Sadducees… argued that an overruling Providence sustaining the machinery of the universe, and a foreknowledge of events would deprive man of free moral agency, and lower him to the position of a slave. {3SP 44.3}
DA 604
The Sadducees… believed in God as the only being superior to man; but they argued that an overruling providence and a divine foresight would deprive man of free moral agency, and degrade him to the position of a slave. {DA 604.2}
3SP 178
When Judas had reported to the priests the words of Jesus in regard to his approaching death, they had ridiculed the idea of his foreknowledge of events. {3SP 178.1}
RH 11-13-1900
Christ quoted a prophecy which more than a thousand years before had predicted what God's foreknowledge had seen would be. The prophecies do not shape the characters of the men who fulfill them. Men act out their own free will... {RH 11-13-1900}
MB 100
He whose servant you are, knows the end from the beginning. The events of tomorrow, which are hidden from your view, are open to the eyes of Him who is omnipotent. {MB 100.1}
3SG 113
God knows the end from the beginning. He knew before the birth of Jacob and Esau, just what characters they would both develop. He knew that Esau would not have a heart to obey him. {3SG 113.1}
SR 367
The waiting ones rejoiced that He who knows the end from the beginning had looked down through the ages, and, foreseeing their disappointment, had given them words of courage and hope. {SR 367.1}
DA 224, 225
God never leads His children otherwise than they would choose to be led, if they could see the end from the beginning, and discern the glory of the purpose which they are fulfilling as co-workers with Him. {DA 224.5}
DA 330
Worry is blind, and cannot discern the future; but Jesus sees the end from the beginning. In every difficulty He has His way prepared to bring relief. {DA 330.1}
DA 606
God counts the things that are not as though they were. He sees the end from the beginning, and beholds the result of His work as though it were now accomplished. {DA 606.1}
5T 698, 699
"Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?" "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." "I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done." It is impossible for the finite minds of men to fully comprehend the character or the works of the Infinite One. To the keenest intellect, to the most powerful and highly educated mind, that holy Being must ever remain clothed in mystery. {5T 698.2}
Jeremiah
1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Acts
2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Romans
8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
1 Peter
1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3SP 45
The Sadducees… argued that an overruling Providence sustaining the machinery of the universe, and a foreknowledge of events would deprive man of free moral agency, and lower him to the position of a slave. {3SP 44.3}
DA 604
The Sadducees… believed in God as the only being superior to man; but they argued that an overruling providence and a divine foresight would deprive man of free moral agency, and degrade him to the position of a slave. {DA 604.2}
3SP 178
When Judas had reported to the priests the words of Jesus in regard to his approaching death, they had ridiculed the idea of his foreknowledge of events. {3SP 178.1}
RH 11-13-1900
Christ quoted a prophecy which more than a thousand years before had predicted what God's foreknowledge had seen would be. The prophecies do not shape the characters of the men who fulfill them. Men act out their own free will... {RH 11-13-1900}
MB 100
He whose servant you are, knows the end from the beginning. The events of tomorrow, which are hidden from your view, are open to the eyes of Him who is omnipotent. {MB 100.1}
3SG 113
God knows the end from the beginning. He knew before the birth of Jacob and Esau, just what characters they would both develop. He knew that Esau would not have a heart to obey him. {3SG 113.1}
SR 367
The waiting ones rejoiced that He who knows the end from the beginning had looked down through the ages, and, foreseeing their disappointment, had given them words of courage and hope. {SR 367.1}
DA 224, 225
God never leads His children otherwise than they would choose to be led, if they could see the end from the beginning, and discern the glory of the purpose which they are fulfilling as co-workers with Him. {DA 224.5}
DA 330
Worry is blind, and cannot discern the future; but Jesus sees the end from the beginning. In every difficulty He has His way prepared to bring relief. {DA 330.1}
DA 606
God counts the things that are not as though they were. He sees the end from the beginning, and beholds the result of His work as though it were now accomplished. {DA 606.1}
5T 698, 699
"Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?" "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." "I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done." It is impossible for the finite minds of men to fully comprehend the character or the works of the Infinite One. To the keenest intellect, to the most powerful and highly educated mind, that holy Being must ever remain clothed in mystery. {5T 698.2}
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/23/04 10:23 PM
Ikan.
Isaiah 46:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.
Deuteronomy 33:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Lamentations 3:38
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
I think these passages already give us a picture about God.
In His love
James S
Isaiah 46:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.
Deuteronomy 33:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Lamentations 3:38
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
I think these passages already give us a picture about God.
In His love
James S
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/23/04 10:26 PM
Maybe we must come to know WHY did God create intelligent living beings with a freewill to choose in his image and likeness? What is his intention? What is his purpose?
I think I have the answer for why did God create Adam and Eve, but why did he created angles is just a guessing.
Creating Adam and Eve was a way out for God to eliminate sin that already existed in the universe. If God destroy the sinners (Lucifer and his angles) without creating A&E, he would be
worship in fear and the remaining angles would see him as a cruel and savage God that ruled with iron hand.
But, by creating A&E, KNOWING they too would fall in sin, he has set a way to eliminate sin forever, which is through the tree of the knowledge of good and evil where death resides in its fruits. There is the fruit of life, eating it prolonged A&E life, so, there too is the fruit of death, eating it kills them. I think, God created death in the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.
So, A&E died because they ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, it was their 1st death, but Adam’s descendant dies because they inherit his death body. A&E off springs are destined to die the 1st death, even though A&E self were created to live forever and so would be their off springs, but God knew that they would fall in sin and must die.
Because it was through what God had created that A&E died even it was their own choice, and their off springs inherit the death as their destiny; born to die. God must do something to show his love and mercy. And that was already in his plan before even he creates anything. He would send Jesus Christ to save men and gives their life back, giving men a second chance to live forever again.
Meanwhile, through Christ’ redemption, Satan’s mask is uncovered and God received justification for what he did through creation. His judgment is good and righteous based on love. He has every legal reason now to eliminate sin forever by destroying sinners with 2nd death in hell.
1st death was in the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, 2nd death is in the lake of fire.
1st death was God creation and so is the 2nd death, but the 1st death is the fruit of Adam’s choice, the 2nd is the wage of sin.
So, God is love and God is good; life and death, good and evil were his creation but his creation did find it out, exercise it and was the cause of the existence of sin, woe, misery and death. God is not responsible for it’s existence but he love to take the responsibility, to show his love, mercy and justice and unmasking Satan’s real character.
In His love
James S
I think I have the answer for why did God create Adam and Eve, but why did he created angles is just a guessing.
Creating Adam and Eve was a way out for God to eliminate sin that already existed in the universe. If God destroy the sinners (Lucifer and his angles) without creating A&E, he would be
worship in fear and the remaining angles would see him as a cruel and savage God that ruled with iron hand.
But, by creating A&E, KNOWING they too would fall in sin, he has set a way to eliminate sin forever, which is through the tree of the knowledge of good and evil where death resides in its fruits. There is the fruit of life, eating it prolonged A&E life, so, there too is the fruit of death, eating it kills them. I think, God created death in the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.
So, A&E died because they ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, it was their 1st death, but Adam’s descendant dies because they inherit his death body. A&E off springs are destined to die the 1st death, even though A&E self were created to live forever and so would be their off springs, but God knew that they would fall in sin and must die.
Because it was through what God had created that A&E died even it was their own choice, and their off springs inherit the death as their destiny; born to die. God must do something to show his love and mercy. And that was already in his plan before even he creates anything. He would send Jesus Christ to save men and gives their life back, giving men a second chance to live forever again.
Meanwhile, through Christ’ redemption, Satan’s mask is uncovered and God received justification for what he did through creation. His judgment is good and righteous based on love. He has every legal reason now to eliminate sin forever by destroying sinners with 2nd death in hell.
1st death was in the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, 2nd death is in the lake of fire.
1st death was God creation and so is the 2nd death, but the 1st death is the fruit of Adam’s choice, the 2nd is the wage of sin.
So, God is love and God is good; life and death, good and evil were his creation but his creation did find it out, exercise it and was the cause of the existence of sin, woe, misery and death. God is not responsible for it’s existence but he love to take the responsibility, to show his love, mercy and justice and unmasking Satan’s real character.
In His love
James S
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/24/04 10:09 PM
quote:This seems to imply that sin was inevitable. Why should this be the case? God is perfect, and his creation perfect. Why should perfect being, created to love others and with no regard for self, choose to rebel against their perfect, loving Father?
I think that when God created Lucifer that He knew that whom ever He could have created instead of Lucifer - that being would also have sinned. IOW, it seems as if sin had to arise - no matter what. Same with Adam - the first humans God created had to sin. Sin is a given.
According to the Spirit of Prophesy there are "millions of worlds." In spite of this, there is only one world on which sin exists. That means, even with sin already existing, there is a less than 0.00001% chance of sin coming about, on the average. If sin did not exist, that chance should be far less.
Sin is an intruder for which no reason can be given. Following your logic, it appears to me, sin would have been inevitable, hence a reason is easy to ascertain.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/24/04 10:27 PM
quote:I agree with all of this, except the "like watching a rerun on TV. This clearly disagrees with inspiriation. I'll cite 3 examples as to why.
I agree, Doug. But this insight doesn't mean God wanted us to sin, or that it was His great desire to see us sin and suffer. No way. But He clearly foresaw its existence, and then He made provision to deal with it and us - before we were created. Prophecy proves God knows the end from the beginning, like watching a rerun on TV.
quote:God sent His Son at a "more fearful risk." "Risk" involves the possibility of loss. Obviously if God foresaw Christ would be succesful as a T.V. rerun, the possibility of loss would be zero, and the above statement would be false.
Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.
The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril. He longs to shield his dear one from Satan's power, to hold him back from temptation and conflict. To meet a bitterer conflict and a more fearful risk, God gave His only-begotten Son, that the path of life might be made sure for our little ones. "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth! (DA 49)
quote:If God foresaw the inevitably of sin existing due to His creation of Lucifer, then a reason for sin's existence could be easily given. It existed because God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable. Since no such explanation is possible, according to the above, such a view must be false.
It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. (GC 492)
quote:There are dozens of statements similar to this. Both the Bible and Spirit of Prophesy make it clear that it is possible for us to hasten or delay Christ's coming. In one statment, written in 1903 I think, the Spirit of Prophesy records Christ as being "disappointed" that He could not return. Such a statement is non-sensical in a T.V. rerun type future.
Had Adventists, after the great disappointment in 1844, held fast their faith, and followed on unitedly in the opening providence of God, receiving the message of the third angel and in the power of the Holy Spirit proclaiming it to the world, they would have seen the salvation of God, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts, the work would have been completed, and Christ would have come ere this to receive His people to their reward. (1SM 68)
It's also the case that if the future is like a T.V. rerun that we do not actually have free will, only apparently do. That is, we cannot actually make choices different from what the future holds -- we only think we can.
Posted By: Doug Meister
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/25/04 09:41 AM
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[ January 01, 2005, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
[ January 01, 2005, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
Posted By: Doug Meister
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/25/04 09:46 AM
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[ January 01, 2005, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
[ January 01, 2005, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/25/04 11:17 AM
quote:What's your view of Ellen G. White?
The idea of EGW that Christ would have come many years ago if. . . . . . . . is false. If true then none of us would have been born. Since God knows the end from the beginning - He didnt know that the world would have ended back then.
quote:Is this a joke? Inspiration gets trumped by Murphy's Law?
What we are forgetting is Murphy's Law = if anything can go wrong - it will. Therefore - sin had to arise and it had to arise with the highest created being.
I like you Christmas decorations. Merry Christmas.
Posted By: Doug Meister
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/26/04 09:53 AM
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[ January 01, 2005, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
[ January 01, 2005, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/26/04 11:12 AM
quote:If the Bible doesn't say something, and Ellen White does, but doesn't use the words, "I was shown," then this proves your view is correct? That's an odd claim. How would one disprove this?
No where does the Bible say that Jesus could have returned sooner. And EGW didnt say "I was shown." Therefore I am correct in my views.
The Bible agrees with Ellen White. Peter says we can hasten the Lord's coming.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/26/04 08:23 PM
Tom, the fact Jesus could have come "ere this" doesn't mean God doesn't know the exact day and hour of the second advent. Prophecy proves God is in control, that He knows the end from the beginning. If we doubt this truth then we cannot trust the promises of God. Please reread the quotes I posted above in my last post. They leave no room to doubt the foreknowledge of God.
Matthew
24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mark
13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Matthew
24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mark
13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/26/04 08:49 PM
Knowing the end from the beginning does not rob us of the freedom to choose. "God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency." How can we read this insight and conclude that God did not foresee the fall of Lucifer and mankind? I don't see how she could have worded the truth any clearer!
DA 22
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. {DA 22.2}
AG 129
But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. {AG 129.2}
PP 43
He that ruleth in the heavens is the one who sees the end from the beginning--the one before whom the mysteries of the past and the future are alike outspread, and who, beyond the woe and darkness and ruin that sin has wrought, beholds the accomplishment of His own purposes of love and blessing. {PP 43.1}
Was it God's intention that sin exist? Not in the sense that He wanted it to happen, or that it had to happen in order to safeguard the future. It is not necessary to sin in order to know sin is evil and wrong. Otherwise, we would have to commit every form of sin imaginable to know beyond doubt that sin is evil and wrong.
DA 58
In the judgment of the universe, God will stand clear of blame for the existence or continuance of evil. It will be demonstrated that the divine decrees are not accessory to sin. There was no defect in God's government, no cause for disaffection. {DA 58.1}
GC 492, 493
Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. {GC 492.2}
But. It is still obvious, and too simple to see, that had God not created Lucifer, the great controversy never would have started. Why didn't God create only those angels He knew would choose to remain loyal? Not creating Lucifer would have violated no ones freedom to choose.
Why didn't God deny Satan access to Adam and Eve? Why didn't He stand beside Eve, at the forbidden tree, and merely ask her a few simple questions, before she ate? Why didn't He stand beside Adam, before he too ate, and promise him another wife? Why did God stand back and watch?
There are a number of things God could have done to prevent sin, without violating our freedom to choose. Why didn't He? I believe Sister White got it right when she wrote:
GC 493
Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. {GC 492.2}
DA 22
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. {DA 22.2}
AG 129
But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. {AG 129.2}
PP 43
He that ruleth in the heavens is the one who sees the end from the beginning--the one before whom the mysteries of the past and the future are alike outspread, and who, beyond the woe and darkness and ruin that sin has wrought, beholds the accomplishment of His own purposes of love and blessing. {PP 43.1}
Was it God's intention that sin exist? Not in the sense that He wanted it to happen, or that it had to happen in order to safeguard the future. It is not necessary to sin in order to know sin is evil and wrong. Otherwise, we would have to commit every form of sin imaginable to know beyond doubt that sin is evil and wrong.
DA 58
In the judgment of the universe, God will stand clear of blame for the existence or continuance of evil. It will be demonstrated that the divine decrees are not accessory to sin. There was no defect in God's government, no cause for disaffection. {DA 58.1}
GC 492, 493
Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. {GC 492.2}
But. It is still obvious, and too simple to see, that had God not created Lucifer, the great controversy never would have started. Why didn't God create only those angels He knew would choose to remain loyal? Not creating Lucifer would have violated no ones freedom to choose.
Why didn't God deny Satan access to Adam and Eve? Why didn't He stand beside Eve, at the forbidden tree, and merely ask her a few simple questions, before she ate? Why didn't He stand beside Adam, before he too ate, and promise him another wife? Why did God stand back and watch?
There are a number of things God could have done to prevent sin, without violating our freedom to choose. Why didn't He? I believe Sister White got it right when she wrote:
GC 493
Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. {GC 492.2}
Posted By: Doug Meister
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/27/04 05:47 AM
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[ January 01, 2005, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
[ January 01, 2005, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
Posted By: Boblee
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/27/04 09:25 PM
Mike,
That's an interesting series of quotations you posted. And I appreciate the fact that in your last post, you offered a few quotes which opposed your stated views. But you didn't go nearly far enough in that direction to examine the whole subject instead of only that which agrees with your opinion. How about presenting the many passages of scripture in which God changed His mind? Or laid plans or was influenced by humans. He said there are things that never entered His mind and He said He would forget. Why aren't these passages in your postings? There are a number of prophecies recorded which never came to pass. Jonah's prophecy about the destruction of Nineveh in forty days and Ezekiel's prophecy about the layout of Palestine on the return of the Jews to Jerusalem are two obvious examples. Why didn't you post those examples?
You might get a clue about some of this from 2 Samuel 24 which tells about the Lord becoming angry at the children of Israel, telling David to go number Israel and Judah. After he had done it, the Lord punished David and the people for doing it! Hmmm. Does that sound like our God? But wait, there's more. If you go to 1 Chronicles 21, you find the same story, but it is Satan who provokes David to number Israel.
Adventists have long tried to follow a word-by-word literal translation of the Bible followed by a proof-text exegesis to make our points. But we keep getting in trouble with other Bible scholars who study beyond the surface. Beyond that, we keep leaving out the texts which don't say what we want them to say (like you did when you left out those texts which present God as a real finite Being living in real time). Current Adventist scholarship is remedying these problems. I invite you to become part of that scholarship.
RL
That's an interesting series of quotations you posted. And I appreciate the fact that in your last post, you offered a few quotes which opposed your stated views. But you didn't go nearly far enough in that direction to examine the whole subject instead of only that which agrees with your opinion. How about presenting the many passages of scripture in which God changed His mind? Or laid plans or was influenced by humans. He said there are things that never entered His mind and He said He would forget. Why aren't these passages in your postings? There are a number of prophecies recorded which never came to pass. Jonah's prophecy about the destruction of Nineveh in forty days and Ezekiel's prophecy about the layout of Palestine on the return of the Jews to Jerusalem are two obvious examples. Why didn't you post those examples?
You might get a clue about some of this from 2 Samuel 24 which tells about the Lord becoming angry at the children of Israel, telling David to go number Israel and Judah. After he had done it, the Lord punished David and the people for doing it! Hmmm. Does that sound like our God? But wait, there's more. If you go to 1 Chronicles 21, you find the same story, but it is Satan who provokes David to number Israel.
Adventists have long tried to follow a word-by-word literal translation of the Bible followed by a proof-text exegesis to make our points. But we keep getting in trouble with other Bible scholars who study beyond the surface. Beyond that, we keep leaving out the texts which don't say what we want them to say (like you did when you left out those texts which present God as a real finite Being living in real time). Current Adventist scholarship is remedying these problems. I invite you to become part of that scholarship.
RL
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/27/04 11:42 PM
Boblee, you are so right. Thank you for drawing attention to those troubling passages. My answer? 1) God is in control, whether He causes it or permits it. 2) Prophecy is conditional.
None of the troubling texts you cited contradicts the fact that God knows the end from the beginning, that human history, for God, is like watching a rerun on TV.
EV 695
Our Saviour did not appear as soon as we hoped. But has the Word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and the threatenings of God are alike conditional. {Ev 695.1}
GC 48
God permits the wicked to prosper and to reveal their enmity against Him, that when they shall have filled up the measure of their iniquity all may see His justice and mercy in their utter destruction. {GC 48.2}
GC 614
The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
None of the troubling texts you cited contradicts the fact that God knows the end from the beginning, that human history, for God, is like watching a rerun on TV.
EV 695
Our Saviour did not appear as soon as we hoped. But has the Word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and the threatenings of God are alike conditional. {Ev 695.1}
GC 48
God permits the wicked to prosper and to reveal their enmity against Him, that when they shall have filled up the measure of their iniquity all may see His justice and mercy in their utter destruction. {GC 48.2}
GC 614
The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
Posted By: Boblee
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/31/04 07:42 AM
There is an interesting observation which I believe is relevant to this discussion in the November 2004 issue of Discover magazine in which Lord Robert May, who was the United Kingdom's former chief scientific adviser and the highest authority on science during the mad cow years, was interviewed by Jocelyn Selim, who is an associate editor of Discover magazine. Lord May was asked "Which countries are better at science?" As part of his answer he observed, "The best science performers are countries which make sure young people are set free to pursue their own agenda and express their creativity."
As I read this, I thought how much this sounds like God, who made humans capable of pursuing our own agenda and who encourages us to express our creativity. It was a gamble, of course. Just as some young people will use their creativity to the destruction of themselves and society, God realized that sooner or later, some element of His creation may try to create something that is similarly destructive. But because He made provisions to counter such a development in no way means He intended for it to happen or foreknew it would any more than a university that encourages a free agenda and creativity among its students is promoting destruction or chaos.
"God has foreknowledge" and "prophecy is conditional" are mutually exclusive concepts. If one is correct, the other is impossible just like having an irresistible force and an immovable object in the same environment is impossible. I agree that the Bible does present such dilemmas. The question is not which one to believe, after all, they may both be true. The real question is "how do we handle such perplexities?"
RL
As I read this, I thought how much this sounds like God, who made humans capable of pursuing our own agenda and who encourages us to express our creativity. It was a gamble, of course. Just as some young people will use their creativity to the destruction of themselves and society, God realized that sooner or later, some element of His creation may try to create something that is similarly destructive. But because He made provisions to counter such a development in no way means He intended for it to happen or foreknew it would any more than a university that encourages a free agenda and creativity among its students is promoting destruction or chaos.
"God has foreknowledge" and "prophecy is conditional" are mutually exclusive concepts. If one is correct, the other is impossible just like having an irresistible force and an immovable object in the same environment is impossible. I agree that the Bible does present such dilemmas. The question is not which one to believe, after all, they may both be true. The real question is "how do we handle such perplexities?"
RL
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/31/04 08:50 AM
quote:By faith!!! We must learn to take God at His word.
The real question is "how do we handle such perplexities?"
Hebrews
11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
5T 698, 699
"Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?" "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." "I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done." It is impossible for the finite minds of men to fully comprehend the character or the works of the Infinite One. To the keenest intellect, to the most powerful and highly educated mind, that holy Being must ever remain clothed in mystery. {5T 698.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 12/31/04 09:25 PM
Mike, I believe God has perfect foreknoledge. I have not posted anything contrary to this. I disagree with your view of the future, that it is like a "T.V. rerun." That's what I find to be contrary to inspiration.
EGW did not say simply that Christ "could have come" before [many different times suggested] but that Christ *would* have come. That's what proves your idea to be incorrect. If the future were indeed like a "T. V. rerun," then it cannot be true that Christ "would have come." This should be clear.
The passages that Boblee pointed out are also contrary to this view of a fixed future.
Regarding free will, the point is that if the future is fixed, then it is not possible to choose something other than what the future holds. Thus our "free will," is not real, but only apparent. At any given point in time, we only have one choice available -- we just think we do.
EGW did not say simply that Christ "could have come" before [many different times suggested] but that Christ *would* have come. That's what proves your idea to be incorrect. If the future were indeed like a "T. V. rerun," then it cannot be true that Christ "would have come." This should be clear.
The passages that Boblee pointed out are also contrary to this view of a fixed future.
quote:It makes no sense to suggest that God "changes His mind," if the future is "like a T.V. rerun."
At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it. (Jer. 18:7-10)
So the Lord sent a pestilence on Israel; and seventy thousand persons fell in Israel. And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it; but when he was about to destroy it, the Lord took note and relented concerning the calamity; he said to the destroying angel, "Enough! Stay your hand." The angel of the Lord was then standing by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite. (1 Chron. 21:14, 15)
In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, "Thus says the Lord: Set your house in order, for you shall die; you shall not recover." Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord: "Remember now, O Lord, I implore you, how I have walked before you in faithfulness with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight." Hezekiah wept bitterly. Before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, the word of the Lord came to him: "Turn back, and say to Hezekiah prince of my people, Thus says the Lord, the God of your ancestor David: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; indeed, I will heal you; on the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord. I will add fifteen years to your life. I will deliver you and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; I will defend this city for my own sake and for my servant David's sake." (2 Kings 20:1-6)
Did King Hezekiah of Judah and all Judah actually put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and did not the Lord change his mind about the disaster that he had pronounced against them? But we are about to bring great disaster on ourselves!". (Jer. 26:19)
And the Lord changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people. (Ex. 32:14)
Therefore the Lord the God of Israel declares: "I promised that your family and the family of your ancestor should go in and out before me forever'; but now the Lord declares: "Far be it from me; for those who honor me I will honor, and those who despise me shall be treated with contempt. See, a time is coming when I will cut off your strength and the strength of your ancestor's family, so that no one in your family will live to old age. (1 Sam. 2:30, 31)
Then the prophet Shemaiah came to Rehoboam and to the officers of Judah, who had gathered at Jerusalem because of Shishak, and said to them, "Thus says the Lord: You abandoned me, so I have abandoned you to the hand of Shishak." Then the officers of Israel and the king humbled themselves and said, "The Lord is in the right." When the Lord saw that they humbled themselves, the word of the Lord came to Shemaiah, saying: "They have humbled themselves; I will not destroy them, but I will grant them some deliverance, and my wrath shall not be poured out on Jerusalem by the hand of Shishak. (2 Chron. 12:5-7)
When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it. (Jonah 3:10)
Regarding free will, the point is that if the future is fixed, then it is not possible to choose something other than what the future holds. Thus our "free will," is not real, but only apparent. At any given point in time, we only have one choice available -- we just think we do.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/01/05 06:15 AM
God went looking for Adam and Eve in the Garden, crying out loud, as if He didn't know where they were. God often sought answers to questions He already knew. Why? Why does God ask rhetorical questions? Is it because He really doesn't know the answer? If God doesn't know the future how is is He able to reveal it in prophecies?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/01/05 08:04 AM
The issue isn't God's knowledge of the future, it's the nature of the future itself. If the future is fixed, then what God reveals of Himself is feigned.
The fact that God asked a rhetorical question, does not imply the future is fixed. Assuming the future, like a TV re-run, is fixed leads to many problems.
For example:
1) How is God not responsible for the entrance of sin, if the future is fixed?
2) How does God assume risks in a fixed future?
3) How do we have free will in a fixed future?
4) How can God reveal that things occured differently than He hoped?
5) How can God reveal that Christ would have come earlier if certain conditions have been met?
6) How can we delay or hasten Christ's coming?
7) How can God spontaneously experience anything?
8) How can God change His mind?
The fact that God asked a rhetorical question, does not imply the future is fixed. Assuming the future, like a TV re-run, is fixed leads to many problems.
For example:
1) How is God not responsible for the entrance of sin, if the future is fixed?
2) How does God assume risks in a fixed future?
3) How do we have free will in a fixed future?
4) How can God reveal that things occured differently than He hoped?
5) How can God reveal that Christ would have come earlier if certain conditions have been met?
6) How can we delay or hasten Christ's coming?
7) How can God spontaneously experience anything?
8) How can God change His mind?
Posted By: Doug Meister
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/01/05 09:40 AM
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[ January 01, 2005, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
[ January 01, 2005, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/01/05 09:47 AM
Tom, you totally missed my point. We have to interpret what God says in the Bible in light of the fact He knows the end from the beginning. This applies to His rhetorical questions as well as to the passages where it appears God isn't in control or wishes to change His mind.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/04/05 07:53 AM
Mike, you're assuming your conclustion. You're assuming the future is as Plato surmised, rather than as God has revealed things in Scripture, and when things don't agree with your view, you take them as rhetorical. It's hard to prove anything from Scripture if you can just call something you disagree with as rhetorical whenever it disagrees with your point of view.
You didn't deal with any of the points I raised regarding why your view of a fixed future causes problems. There is much in inspiration which indicates the future is not fixed, some of which I pointed out in the above mentioned points.
You didn't deal with any of the points I raised regarding why your view of a fixed future causes problems. There is much in inspiration which indicates the future is not fixed, some of which I pointed out in the above mentioned points.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/03/05 08:41 PM
Okay. Apparently you believe God has never used hyperboles or rhetorical questions to make His point. So, what about God and a fixed future? Here's what makes sense to me. There are only two possible outcomes of any given situation - the perfect way and ways that are not perfect. I believe God causes everything to turn out the perfect way.
That is not to say that everything is perfect, but rather He makes everything, no matter how good or bad it is, turn out perfect. It's all relative. For example, a drunk driver kills a pastor and his two sons, but he lives. A jury acquits him and he goes home free. His guilt and shame causes him to accept Jesus as his personal Saviour. By the way, I know of this person.
God could have prevented the accident. He could have prevented the pastor and his two sons from dying. God could have caused him to be convicted and imprisoned. He might have died in prison an unsaved man. But since God knows the end from beginning He made everything turn out perfectly. He always makes everything turn out perfect.
Since God is holy, just and good, He cannot sit back and allow things to turn out any old way, to turn out less than perfect. He didn't wind up the earth and then go on vacation. He is very involved ensuring that things turn out perfect and end up perfect. Indeed, He is obligated to make everything turn out perfect, because otherwise He would be guilty of indifference.
Whether fixed or not, God makes the future turn out perfect. It cannot be any other way. Since it cannot be any other way, God can just as easily foretell it, because He knows the end from beginning.
That is not to say that everything is perfect, but rather He makes everything, no matter how good or bad it is, turn out perfect. It's all relative. For example, a drunk driver kills a pastor and his two sons, but he lives. A jury acquits him and he goes home free. His guilt and shame causes him to accept Jesus as his personal Saviour. By the way, I know of this person.
God could have prevented the accident. He could have prevented the pastor and his two sons from dying. God could have caused him to be convicted and imprisoned. He might have died in prison an unsaved man. But since God knows the end from beginning He made everything turn out perfectly. He always makes everything turn out perfect.
Since God is holy, just and good, He cannot sit back and allow things to turn out any old way, to turn out less than perfect. He didn't wind up the earth and then go on vacation. He is very involved ensuring that things turn out perfect and end up perfect. Indeed, He is obligated to make everything turn out perfect, because otherwise He would be guilty of indifference.
Whether fixed or not, God makes the future turn out perfect. It cannot be any other way. Since it cannot be any other way, God can just as easily foretell it, because He knows the end from beginning.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/03/05 08:50 PM
Mike, I made 8 specific points. I don't see how your post addresses any of these posts.
Clearly things are not "perfect." If they were, we wouldn't need to pray, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." We see injustice, suffering and the results of sin wherever we look.
These things exist because God created us as free moral agents, with the capacity of rebelling against Him. The question I started this topic with is if this rebellion was according to God's plan. Was it God's intention that the human race should rebel against Him?
Clearly things are not "perfect." If they were, we wouldn't need to pray, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." We see injustice, suffering and the results of sin wherever we look.
These things exist because God created us as free moral agents, with the capacity of rebelling against Him. The question I started this topic with is if this rebellion was according to God's plan. Was it God's intention that the human race should rebel against Him?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/03/05 09:24 PM
quote:
That is not to say that everything is perfect, but rather He makes everything, no matter how good or bad it is, turn out perfect. It's all relative.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/04/05 01:12 AM
I don't know what your point is Mike. I also don't see how the points I made were addressed.
There are obviously things in this world which are not perfect. God does not make them perfect. They can't be made perfect. That's the nature of sin.
God causes all things to work together for His purposes for those who love Him, if that's what you mean.
There are obviously things in this world which are not perfect. God does not make them perfect. They can't be made perfect. That's the nature of sin.
God causes all things to work together for His purposes for those who love Him, if that's what you mean.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/04/05 03:07 AM
1) How is God not responsible for the entrance of sin, if the future is fixed?
God created free moral agents even though He knew they would choose to sin. He did not make or force them to sin.
2) How does God assume risks in a fixed future?
I don’t think God takes risks in the same way humans take risks. It can't possibly mean the same thing.
3) How do we have free will in a fixed future?
Knowing the end from the beginning doesn’t rob us of free will. For example, the messianic prophecies foretold many things, but they didn’t rob Jesus of His free will.
4) How can God reveal that things occurred differently than He hoped?
We don’t know what goes on behind the scenes, so we don’t know if what God stated was His will or if what actually happened was His unstated will. The word of God produces the desired effect, whether explicit or implied.
5) How can God reveal that Christ would have come earlier if certain conditions have been met?
Because that's what would have happened. The fact it didn’t happen was no surprise to God. He knows the end from the beginning. Saying it would have happened doesn't change the fact that God knows when it will happen. The day and hour has been fixed from eternity.
6) How can we delay or hasten Christ's coming?
By complying with the conditions. Encouraging us to believe that what we do is an important part of it is simply stating the truth. That's how God set things up. God knows how we will react to this promise, which is why He knows the day and hour of Jesus' return.
7) How can God spontaneously experience anything?
We don’t know that He has to experience things spontaneously in order to be happy or whatever.
8) How can God change His mind?
Whenever it says God changed His mind or repented of something, it obviously doesn’t have the same connotation as it does when referring to human beings.
God created free moral agents even though He knew they would choose to sin. He did not make or force them to sin.
2) How does God assume risks in a fixed future?
I don’t think God takes risks in the same way humans take risks. It can't possibly mean the same thing.
3) How do we have free will in a fixed future?
Knowing the end from the beginning doesn’t rob us of free will. For example, the messianic prophecies foretold many things, but they didn’t rob Jesus of His free will.
4) How can God reveal that things occurred differently than He hoped?
We don’t know what goes on behind the scenes, so we don’t know if what God stated was His will or if what actually happened was His unstated will. The word of God produces the desired effect, whether explicit or implied.
5) How can God reveal that Christ would have come earlier if certain conditions have been met?
Because that's what would have happened. The fact it didn’t happen was no surprise to God. He knows the end from the beginning. Saying it would have happened doesn't change the fact that God knows when it will happen. The day and hour has been fixed from eternity.
6) How can we delay or hasten Christ's coming?
By complying with the conditions. Encouraging us to believe that what we do is an important part of it is simply stating the truth. That's how God set things up. God knows how we will react to this promise, which is why He knows the day and hour of Jesus' return.
7) How can God spontaneously experience anything?
We don’t know that He has to experience things spontaneously in order to be happy or whatever.
8) How can God change His mind?
Whenever it says God changed His mind or repented of something, it obviously doesn’t have the same connotation as it does when referring to human beings.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/04/05 05:51 AM
1) How is God not responsible for the entrance of sin, if the future is fixed?
God created free moral agents even though He knew they would choose to sin. He did not make or force them to sin.
Tom: You wrote that "that God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable." This certainly sounds like you're saying God was responsible for the entrance of sin.
2) How does God assume risks in a fixed future?
I don’t think God takes risks in the same way humans take risks. It can't possibly mean the same thing.
Tom: Why not?
1) Christ risked all.
2) Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption.
3) How do we have free will in a fixed future?
Knowing the end from the beginning doesn’t rob us of free will. For example, the messianic prophecies foretold many things, but they didn’t rob Jesus of His free will.
Tom: My question has nothing whatsoever to do with knowing the end from the beginning. This is scratching where it doesn't itch. My question is how can I have free will if the future is fixed? If the future is fixed, there is only one possible future. Free will means being able to do more than one thing, to have options. But if the future is fixed, I don't have more than one option. I don't really have free will -- I just think I do. Isn't that clear? If not, I'll try to explain it some more.
4) How can God reveal that things occurred differently than He hoped?
We don’t know what goes on behind the scenes, so we don’t know if what God stated was His will or if what actually happened was His unstated will. The word of God produces the desired effect, whether explicit or implied.
Tom: This sounds like Calvinism and "secret" wills. If the future is fixed, it makes no sense for God to have said that things went differently than He had hoped, since in this scenario God would have known from all eternity what would have happened.
5) How can God reveal that Christ would have come earlier if certain conditions have been met?
Because that's what would have happened. The fact it didn’t happen was no surprise to God. He knows the end from the beginning. Saying it would have happened doesn't change the fact that God knows when it will happen. The day and hour has been fixed from eternity.
Tom: But the point is, under your way if thinking, it COUNDN'T have happened. It would have been duplicitous for God to say something "would have" happened if it were impossible for said thing to have happened.
6) How can we delay or hasten Christ's coming?
By complying with the conditions. Encouraging us to believe that what we do is an important part of it is simply stating the truth. That's how God set things up. God knows how we will react to this promise, which is why He knows the day and hour of Jesus' return.
Tom: The question is how it can be said that we can "delay" or "hasten" Christ's coming if the future is fixed. It should be obvious that we can't affect the timing of Christ's coming if the future is fixed, yet inspiration tells us we can. Something's not right here.
7) How can God spontaneously experience anything?
We don’t know that He has to experience things spontaneously in order to be happy or whatever.
Tom: He presents Himself in Scripture as experiencing sorrow, joy and so forth contemporaneously with events that transpire. If these events were known by Him from all eternity, these accounts of Him experiencing joy and sorrow make no sense.
8) How can God change His mind?
Whenever it says God changed His mind or repented of something, it obviously doesn’t have the same connotation as it does when referring to human beings.
Tom: Why is it "obvious"? Only because it disagrees with your preconceived notions. Whenever this happens you respond that it "obviously" doesn't mean what it says. I think it's "obvious" that God meant what He said.
God created free moral agents even though He knew they would choose to sin. He did not make or force them to sin.
Tom: You wrote that "that God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable." This certainly sounds like you're saying God was responsible for the entrance of sin.
2) How does God assume risks in a fixed future?
I don’t think God takes risks in the same way humans take risks. It can't possibly mean the same thing.
Tom: Why not?
quote:Why should we not understand this to mean just what it says? It's clear enough:
The value of a soul, who can estimate? Would you know its worth, go to Gethsemane, and there watch with Christ through those hours of anguish, when He sweat as it were great drops of blood. Look upon the Saviour uplifted on the cross. Hear that despairing cry, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Mark 15:34. Look upon the wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet. Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. (COL 196)
1) Christ risked all.
2) Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption.
3) How do we have free will in a fixed future?
Knowing the end from the beginning doesn’t rob us of free will. For example, the messianic prophecies foretold many things, but they didn’t rob Jesus of His free will.
Tom: My question has nothing whatsoever to do with knowing the end from the beginning. This is scratching where it doesn't itch. My question is how can I have free will if the future is fixed? If the future is fixed, there is only one possible future. Free will means being able to do more than one thing, to have options. But if the future is fixed, I don't have more than one option. I don't really have free will -- I just think I do. Isn't that clear? If not, I'll try to explain it some more.
4) How can God reveal that things occurred differently than He hoped?
We don’t know what goes on behind the scenes, so we don’t know if what God stated was His will or if what actually happened was His unstated will. The word of God produces the desired effect, whether explicit or implied.
Tom: This sounds like Calvinism and "secret" wills. If the future is fixed, it makes no sense for God to have said that things went differently than He had hoped, since in this scenario God would have known from all eternity what would have happened.
5) How can God reveal that Christ would have come earlier if certain conditions have been met?
Because that's what would have happened. The fact it didn’t happen was no surprise to God. He knows the end from the beginning. Saying it would have happened doesn't change the fact that God knows when it will happen. The day and hour has been fixed from eternity.
Tom: But the point is, under your way if thinking, it COUNDN'T have happened. It would have been duplicitous for God to say something "would have" happened if it were impossible for said thing to have happened.
6) How can we delay or hasten Christ's coming?
By complying with the conditions. Encouraging us to believe that what we do is an important part of it is simply stating the truth. That's how God set things up. God knows how we will react to this promise, which is why He knows the day and hour of Jesus' return.
Tom: The question is how it can be said that we can "delay" or "hasten" Christ's coming if the future is fixed. It should be obvious that we can't affect the timing of Christ's coming if the future is fixed, yet inspiration tells us we can. Something's not right here.
7) How can God spontaneously experience anything?
We don’t know that He has to experience things spontaneously in order to be happy or whatever.
Tom: He presents Himself in Scripture as experiencing sorrow, joy and so forth contemporaneously with events that transpire. If these events were known by Him from all eternity, these accounts of Him experiencing joy and sorrow make no sense.
8) How can God change His mind?
Whenever it says God changed His mind or repented of something, it obviously doesn’t have the same connotation as it does when referring to human beings.
Tom: Why is it "obvious"? Only because it disagrees with your preconceived notions. Whenever this happens you respond that it "obviously" doesn't mean what it says. I think it's "obvious" that God meant what He said.
Posted By: Boblee
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/04/05 08:42 AM
Mike,
You said, "We have to interpret what God says in the Bible in light of the fact He knows the end from the beginning." You take this one text which can be interpreted in a number of different ways and twist all the other things God says in the light of your peculiar interpretation of Isaiah 46:10. Why can't you turn that around and interpret Is. 46:10 in the light of all the other things about how God relates to the future including the very next verse which says, "yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." Obviously God is NOT saying He knows my choices in advance, or yours. God is saying in v 11 that He knows what He Himself has proposed doing. And as Tom has pointed out, God has proposed (prophesied) many things which we humans have not allowed Him to do.
By your preconceived prejudice you are not allowing yourself to listen to what God actually says. If God can forget (which He says He can and will do in Jer 31:34), who are we to say, "You can't do that Lord. That doesn't fit our concept of You." I believe we need to listen to what God says about Himself and pay attention to the way He acts and adjust our thinking accordingly rather than try to force Him into our preconceived notions of what He should say and how He should act like you did in a previous post where you said:
"God went looking for Adam and Eve in the Garden, crying out loud, as if He didn't know where they were. God often sought answers to questions He already knew. Why? Why does God ask rhetorical questions? Is it because He really doesn't know the answer?"
Why do you think God knew the answer? He didn't act like He did. Let's accept God for what He says He is, not for what we imagine He is.
RL
You said, "We have to interpret what God says in the Bible in light of the fact He knows the end from the beginning." You take this one text which can be interpreted in a number of different ways and twist all the other things God says in the light of your peculiar interpretation of Isaiah 46:10. Why can't you turn that around and interpret Is. 46:10 in the light of all the other things about how God relates to the future including the very next verse which says, "yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." Obviously God is NOT saying He knows my choices in advance, or yours. God is saying in v 11 that He knows what He Himself has proposed doing. And as Tom has pointed out, God has proposed (prophesied) many things which we humans have not allowed Him to do.
By your preconceived prejudice you are not allowing yourself to listen to what God actually says. If God can forget (which He says He can and will do in Jer 31:34), who are we to say, "You can't do that Lord. That doesn't fit our concept of You." I believe we need to listen to what God says about Himself and pay attention to the way He acts and adjust our thinking accordingly rather than try to force Him into our preconceived notions of what He should say and how He should act like you did in a previous post where you said:
"God went looking for Adam and Eve in the Garden, crying out loud, as if He didn't know where they were. God often sought answers to questions He already knew. Why? Why does God ask rhetorical questions? Is it because He really doesn't know the answer?"
Why do you think God knew the answer? He didn't act like He did. Let's accept God for what He says He is, not for what we imagine He is.
RL
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/04/05 09:23 AM
1 and 2. No further comment. We’ve hashed and rehashed it enough.
3. God’s knowing the future does not mean we do not have choices, it simply means He knows the choices we will make, and the way He will handle the consequences, and the ripple effect it has upon everyone and everything touched by it. Jesus had plenty of choices, but God knew exactly which ones He would make and the outcome.
4. The things God chooses to reveal to us may have a deeper meaning and purpose than the words themselves imply, and yet those very words serve His purpose in a way that may not make sense to us now. God has backdoor and side door ways of getting things done and making things turn out according to His perfect plan.
5. What God says after the fact doesn’t change the facts, nor does it mean He has no idea when Jesus will return. What could have been, would have been, or should have been doesn’t change what is and will be, or the fact God knows exactly how and when Jesus will return.
6. God’s telling us we can hasten or hinder the return of Christ does not imply He has no idea when Jesus will return. It serves God’s righteous plan to cut things short, otherwise things could go longer than God’s perfect plan. Telling us our part is important motivates us to do things that ensure God's perfect plan will turn out according to His will. If need be, He will cause the rocks to make up the difference.
7. As I see it, it means He experiences things twice – before it happens and when it happens. Knowing something ahead of time doesn't spoil the affect, rather anticipation heightens things when it does happen.
8. If God repents or changes His mind in the same way or for the same reasons we do, it would imply that God doesn’t know what is best beforehand, which would also imply God is not all wise or in control. The great controversy is too complex for God to wing it, to make things up along the way. There is one perfect plan, and God is making sure things go according to His one and perfect plan.
3. God’s knowing the future does not mean we do not have choices, it simply means He knows the choices we will make, and the way He will handle the consequences, and the ripple effect it has upon everyone and everything touched by it. Jesus had plenty of choices, but God knew exactly which ones He would make and the outcome.
4. The things God chooses to reveal to us may have a deeper meaning and purpose than the words themselves imply, and yet those very words serve His purpose in a way that may not make sense to us now. God has backdoor and side door ways of getting things done and making things turn out according to His perfect plan.
5. What God says after the fact doesn’t change the facts, nor does it mean He has no idea when Jesus will return. What could have been, would have been, or should have been doesn’t change what is and will be, or the fact God knows exactly how and when Jesus will return.
6. God’s telling us we can hasten or hinder the return of Christ does not imply He has no idea when Jesus will return. It serves God’s righteous plan to cut things short, otherwise things could go longer than God’s perfect plan. Telling us our part is important motivates us to do things that ensure God's perfect plan will turn out according to His will. If need be, He will cause the rocks to make up the difference.
7. As I see it, it means He experiences things twice – before it happens and when it happens. Knowing something ahead of time doesn't spoil the affect, rather anticipation heightens things when it does happen.
8. If God repents or changes His mind in the same way or for the same reasons we do, it would imply that God doesn’t know what is best beforehand, which would also imply God is not all wise or in control. The great controversy is too complex for God to wing it, to make things up along the way. There is one perfect plan, and God is making sure things go according to His one and perfect plan.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/04/05 09:37 AM
Boblee, God knew King Cyrus would allow the Jews to return to Jerusalem, and God also knew it would take Jesus and Gabriel working on his mind for three weeks. Yes, it is true, not all prophecies are so unconditional. In fact, many, if not most, were conditional. But not so with the prophecies recorded in the Revelation. Everyone of them will turn exactly the way God said. No doubt about it. This, of course, means God knows, in advance, our choices and the outcome.
Tom, do you agree with Boblee, that God didn't know the answers to the questions He asked in the Garden of Eden? that He really didn't know where Adam was, or if he had eaten the forbidden fruit?
Tom, do you agree with Boblee, that God didn't know the answers to the questions He asked in the Garden of Eden? that He really didn't know where Adam was, or if he had eaten the forbidden fruit?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/04/05 06:29 PM
1 and 2. No further comment. We’ve hashed and rehashed it enough.
Tom: OK, but I still don't get it. "Risk" means the possibility of loss, even for God. Especially when the phrase goes, "God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss." That means Christ really could have failed, which means the future cannot be fixed.
3. God’s knowing the future does not mean we do not have choices, it simply means He knows the choices we will make, and the way He will handle the consequences, and the ripple effect it has upon everyone and everything touched by it. Jesus had plenty of choices, but God knew exactly which ones He would make and the outcome.
Tom: You seem hung up on God's knowing of the future, which is, as I'm repeatedly pointed out, not the issue I'm discussing. My point is that it is not possible for the future to be fixed and for us to have free will. Free will means having options. We cannot have actual options if the future is fixed, only apparent options. I don't know how else to say this. It appears to me you're not understanding what I'm saying because you keep responding with stuff about God's knowing the future not affecting our choices, which is not at all what I'm talking about.
4. The things God chooses to reveal to us may have a deeper meaning and purpose than the words themselves imply, and yet those very words serve His purpose in a way that may not make sense to us now. God has backdoor and side door ways of getting things done and making things turn out according to His perfect plan.
Tom: I agree with this, but this doesn't deal in any way with the point I made, which was that if the future is fixed, it makes no sense for God to reveal that things could have been different than how they turned out. If the future is fixed, there is not other way.
5. What God says after the fact doesn’t change the facts, nor does it mean He has no idea when Jesus will return. What could have been, would have been, or should have been doesn’t change what is and will be, or the fact God knows exactly how and when Jesus will return.
Tom: This again is not addressing the point. The point is that if the future is fixed, then it cannot be said that Christ "would have" come at some other time. That's simply not possible.
6. God’s telling us we can hasten or hinder the return of Christ does not imply He has no idea when Jesus will return. It serves God’s righteous plan to cut things short, otherwise things could go longer than God’s perfect plan. Telling us our part is important motivates us to do things that ensure God's perfect plan will turn out according to His will. If need be, He will cause the rocks to make up the difference.
Tom: How does it motivate us if it's not true? That is, if the time for Jesus' coming is fixed, at say 2046, then there's no way we can change that. For God to say we can make a difference, that we could hasten His coming, would just be a lie. God cannot lie, though, so when He reveals that we can hasten or delay His coming, that means we really can, which means the date is not fixed. The events around 1888 actually did delay Christ's coming. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that in several places.
7. As I see it, it means He experiences things twice – before it happens and when it happens. Knowing something ahead of time doesn't spoil the affect, rather anticipation heightens things when it does happen.
Tom: Twice doesn't come close to being right in your scenario. If God knows everything that will happen from all eternity, then He has experienced everything an infinite amount of times, not twice. The fact that He experiences it in infinite amount of times is what makes it impossible for Him to experience anything spontaneously, under your scenario.
8. If God repents or changes His mind in the same way or for the same reasons we do, it would imply that God doesn’t know what is best beforehand, which would also imply God is not all wise or in control. The great controversy is too complex for God to wing it, to make things up along the way. There is one perfect plan, and God is making sure things go according to His one and perfect plan.
Tom: I'm not sure what "for the same reasons we do" means. God is omniscient. He doesn't change His mind for lack of wisdom or insight, but because circumstances change. His plan is always perfect, depending on the circumstances at the time.
I've got no idea what you mean by saying there is one perfect plan. That's what Calvinists say. Do you mean the same thing they do when they say it? Or do you mean something different?
Was sin a part of God's "perfect plan"? Did God intend for sin to exist? (the original question of this topic). It seems to me the answer, according to your way of thinking, would have to be "yes."
Tom: OK, but I still don't get it. "Risk" means the possibility of loss, even for God. Especially when the phrase goes, "God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss." That means Christ really could have failed, which means the future cannot be fixed.
3. God’s knowing the future does not mean we do not have choices, it simply means He knows the choices we will make, and the way He will handle the consequences, and the ripple effect it has upon everyone and everything touched by it. Jesus had plenty of choices, but God knew exactly which ones He would make and the outcome.
Tom: You seem hung up on God's knowing of the future, which is, as I'm repeatedly pointed out, not the issue I'm discussing. My point is that it is not possible for the future to be fixed and for us to have free will. Free will means having options. We cannot have actual options if the future is fixed, only apparent options. I don't know how else to say this. It appears to me you're not understanding what I'm saying because you keep responding with stuff about God's knowing the future not affecting our choices, which is not at all what I'm talking about.
4. The things God chooses to reveal to us may have a deeper meaning and purpose than the words themselves imply, and yet those very words serve His purpose in a way that may not make sense to us now. God has backdoor and side door ways of getting things done and making things turn out according to His perfect plan.
Tom: I agree with this, but this doesn't deal in any way with the point I made, which was that if the future is fixed, it makes no sense for God to reveal that things could have been different than how they turned out. If the future is fixed, there is not other way.
5. What God says after the fact doesn’t change the facts, nor does it mean He has no idea when Jesus will return. What could have been, would have been, or should have been doesn’t change what is and will be, or the fact God knows exactly how and when Jesus will return.
Tom: This again is not addressing the point. The point is that if the future is fixed, then it cannot be said that Christ "would have" come at some other time. That's simply not possible.
6. God’s telling us we can hasten or hinder the return of Christ does not imply He has no idea when Jesus will return. It serves God’s righteous plan to cut things short, otherwise things could go longer than God’s perfect plan. Telling us our part is important motivates us to do things that ensure God's perfect plan will turn out according to His will. If need be, He will cause the rocks to make up the difference.
Tom: How does it motivate us if it's not true? That is, if the time for Jesus' coming is fixed, at say 2046, then there's no way we can change that. For God to say we can make a difference, that we could hasten His coming, would just be a lie. God cannot lie, though, so when He reveals that we can hasten or delay His coming, that means we really can, which means the date is not fixed. The events around 1888 actually did delay Christ's coming. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that in several places.
7. As I see it, it means He experiences things twice – before it happens and when it happens. Knowing something ahead of time doesn't spoil the affect, rather anticipation heightens things when it does happen.
Tom: Twice doesn't come close to being right in your scenario. If God knows everything that will happen from all eternity, then He has experienced everything an infinite amount of times, not twice. The fact that He experiences it in infinite amount of times is what makes it impossible for Him to experience anything spontaneously, under your scenario.
8. If God repents or changes His mind in the same way or for the same reasons we do, it would imply that God doesn’t know what is best beforehand, which would also imply God is not all wise or in control. The great controversy is too complex for God to wing it, to make things up along the way. There is one perfect plan, and God is making sure things go according to His one and perfect plan.
Tom: I'm not sure what "for the same reasons we do" means. God is omniscient. He doesn't change His mind for lack of wisdom or insight, but because circumstances change. His plan is always perfect, depending on the circumstances at the time.
I've got no idea what you mean by saying there is one perfect plan. That's what Calvinists say. Do you mean the same thing they do when they say it? Or do you mean something different?
Was sin a part of God's "perfect plan"? Did God intend for sin to exist? (the original question of this topic). It seems to me the answer, according to your way of thinking, would have to be "yes."
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/05/05 01:14 AM
3. God will not allow things to turn out less than best, different than His perfect plan. Father knows best, therefore that’s exactly how it has and will play out. God cannot sit back and allow things to run amuck, and still be a God of love, a God who is in control, a God who can make promises. He will not violate our freedom to choose, but neither will He allow the consequences of our choices derail His perfect plan. He has and will exert an all powerful influence here and there and however to ensure everything works out according to His perfect plan.
4. What is an example of something that didn’t work out according to God’s perfect plan, within the context of the great controversy? I am suggesting that however things turn out is how God planned it.
5. By telling us what might have been God motivates us to do our part now. This doesn’t imply that things didn’t work out according to God’s perfect plan, which also takes into account our mistakes and shortcomings, our faults and imperfections. It’s not lying to tell what have might have been, neither does it mean God has no idea when Jesus will return, which your ideas seem to imply. Are you saying God doesn’t know, from eternity, right now, the exact day and hour when Jesus will return?
6. The exact day and hour of Christ’s return is fixed because God is orchestrating a perfect plan. We don’t know when Jesus will return, but not knowing shouldn’t prevent us from doing everything God has commanded us to do, because the day and hour of Christ’s return is based on everything we are doing and will do, and everything God does. God knows all these things in advance, which is how and why He knows exactly when Jesus will return. The idea that we can hinder or hasten the return of Christ must be understood in the context of God’s perfect plan.
7. No further comment.
8. God is not so shortsighted that He must continually modify and update His perfect plan to accommodate unforeseen circumstances. God will not, indeed, He cannot allow things to turn out less than perfect. I am sharing what makes sense to me, not what Calvin thinks about it. God implemented His perfect plan the moment Adam sinned. Everything that has happened since then is according to God’s perfect plan. God is in absolute, total control of the outcome of the great controversy. Everything is on time and going according to His perfect plan.
Was it God’s intention that sin exist? The fact He created beings He knew would choose to sin says that He was willing to deal with the sin problem. He didn’t make them sin. Dealing with sin has been a part of God's perfect plan from eternity.
PS – I realize you do not agree with me, and that you think I’m missing the point. If I am missing the point, then so be it. But the truth is – we just don’t agree regarding the future and the foreknowledge of God. It might be best if we stop studying this topic for now, and turn our attention to something more fruitful.
4. What is an example of something that didn’t work out according to God’s perfect plan, within the context of the great controversy? I am suggesting that however things turn out is how God planned it.
5. By telling us what might have been God motivates us to do our part now. This doesn’t imply that things didn’t work out according to God’s perfect plan, which also takes into account our mistakes and shortcomings, our faults and imperfections. It’s not lying to tell what have might have been, neither does it mean God has no idea when Jesus will return, which your ideas seem to imply. Are you saying God doesn’t know, from eternity, right now, the exact day and hour when Jesus will return?
6. The exact day and hour of Christ’s return is fixed because God is orchestrating a perfect plan. We don’t know when Jesus will return, but not knowing shouldn’t prevent us from doing everything God has commanded us to do, because the day and hour of Christ’s return is based on everything we are doing and will do, and everything God does. God knows all these things in advance, which is how and why He knows exactly when Jesus will return. The idea that we can hinder or hasten the return of Christ must be understood in the context of God’s perfect plan.
7. No further comment.
8. God is not so shortsighted that He must continually modify and update His perfect plan to accommodate unforeseen circumstances. God will not, indeed, He cannot allow things to turn out less than perfect. I am sharing what makes sense to me, not what Calvin thinks about it. God implemented His perfect plan the moment Adam sinned. Everything that has happened since then is according to God’s perfect plan. God is in absolute, total control of the outcome of the great controversy. Everything is on time and going according to His perfect plan.
Was it God’s intention that sin exist? The fact He created beings He knew would choose to sin says that He was willing to deal with the sin problem. He didn’t make them sin. Dealing with sin has been a part of God's perfect plan from eternity.
PS – I realize you do not agree with me, and that you think I’m missing the point. If I am missing the point, then so be it. But the truth is – we just don’t agree regarding the future and the foreknowledge of God. It might be best if we stop studying this topic for now, and turn our attention to something more fruitful.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/05/05 02:26 AM
3. God will not allow things to turn out less than best, different than His perfect plan. Father knows best, therefore that’s exactly how it has and will play out. God cannot sit back and allow things to run amuck, and still be a God of love, a God who is in control, a God who can make promises. He will not violate our freedom to choose, but neither will He allow the consequences of our choices derail His perfect plan. He has and will exert an all powerful influence here and there and however to ensure everything works out according to His perfect plan.
Tom: You're going off on a different point again. My point was that if the future is fixed, we cannot have free will. Free will involves being able to make choices. You can't make choices if there's only choice. I don't think your comments have anything to do with the point I made. If they did, I don't see how.
4. What is an example of something that didn’t work out according to God’s perfect plan, within the context of the great controversy? I am suggesting that however things turn out is how God planned it.
Tom: What's an example? What's not an example! All of sin is an example of things going differently than God planned. God never planned for sin to occur. The Spirit of Prophesy makes that point many times.
5. By telling us what might have been God motivates us to do our part now. This doesn’t imply that things didn’t work out according to God’s perfect plan, which also takes into account our mistakes and shortcomings, our faults and imperfections. It’s not lying to tell what have might have been, neither does it mean God has no idea when Jesus will return, which your ideas seem to imply. Are you saying God doesn’t know, from eternity, right now, the exact day and hour when Jesus will return?
Tom: It's lying for God to say that Jesus would have come at some other time if it's impossible that that could happen. Isn't that clear? I'm saying that the future is not fixed. All of my arguments are centering on that point, but you have not addressed that point once.
6. The exact day and hour of Christ’s return is fixed because God is orchestrating a perfect plan. We don’t know when Jesus will return, but not knowing shouldn’t prevent us from doing everything God has commanded us to do, because the day and hour of Christ’s return is based on everything we are doing and will do, and everything God does. God knows all these things in advance, which is how and why He knows exactly when Jesus will return. The idea that we can hinder or hasten the return of Christ must be understood in the context of God’s perfect plan.
Tom: If the future is fixed, how can we delay or hinder Christ's coming? It should be clear that we can't. That's my point.
You keep going off on tangents about God's perfect plan and what God does and doesn't know. This does not address my argument.
My argument is that if the future is fixed, we cannot either hasten nor delay Christ's coming. That's very simple logic.
7. No further comment.
8. God is not so shortsighted that He must continually modify and update His perfect plan to accommodate unforeseen circumstances. God will not, indeed, He cannot allow things to turn out less than perfect. I am sharing what makes sense to me, not what Calvin thinks about it. God implemented His perfect plan the moment Adam sinned. Everything that has happened since then is according to God’s perfect plan. God is in absolute, total control of the outcome of the great controversy. Everything is on time and going according to His perfect plan.
Was it God’s intention that sin exist? The fact He created beings He knew would choose to sin says that He was willing to deal with the sin problem. He didn’t make them sin. Dealing with sin has been a part of God's perfect plan from eternity.
PS – I realize you do not agree with me, and that you think I’m missing the point. If I am missing the point, then so be it. But the truth is – we just don’t agree regarding the future and the foreknowledge of God. It might be best if we stop studying this topic for now, and turn our attention to something more fruitful.
Tom: You're right that I think you're missing the point. I made 8 arguments that the future cannot be fixed, and you didn't address that point once although you responded several times to my posts. It's OK to skip to something else, but it would be nice if you would address my arguments, given that you've chosen to respond.
I'm curious as how your vision of things is different than Calvinism. I know you say that your stating things as you see it, but it's so similar to Calvinism that I can't help but think that your thinking has been shaped by Calvinism.
I still haven't gotten a clear answer, that I'm aware of (I apologize if you have answered this somewhere in this topic and I missed it) to the original question, which is if you think that God intended for sin to occur. It seems to me you must think so, based on what you've said, but I'd prefer not to put words in your mouth.
Do you believe that sin entering into the world was a part of "God's perfect plan"?
Tom: You're going off on a different point again. My point was that if the future is fixed, we cannot have free will. Free will involves being able to make choices. You can't make choices if there's only choice. I don't think your comments have anything to do with the point I made. If they did, I don't see how.
4. What is an example of something that didn’t work out according to God’s perfect plan, within the context of the great controversy? I am suggesting that however things turn out is how God planned it.
Tom: What's an example? What's not an example! All of sin is an example of things going differently than God planned. God never planned for sin to occur. The Spirit of Prophesy makes that point many times.
5. By telling us what might have been God motivates us to do our part now. This doesn’t imply that things didn’t work out according to God’s perfect plan, which also takes into account our mistakes and shortcomings, our faults and imperfections. It’s not lying to tell what have might have been, neither does it mean God has no idea when Jesus will return, which your ideas seem to imply. Are you saying God doesn’t know, from eternity, right now, the exact day and hour when Jesus will return?
Tom: It's lying for God to say that Jesus would have come at some other time if it's impossible that that could happen. Isn't that clear? I'm saying that the future is not fixed. All of my arguments are centering on that point, but you have not addressed that point once.
6. The exact day and hour of Christ’s return is fixed because God is orchestrating a perfect plan. We don’t know when Jesus will return, but not knowing shouldn’t prevent us from doing everything God has commanded us to do, because the day and hour of Christ’s return is based on everything we are doing and will do, and everything God does. God knows all these things in advance, which is how and why He knows exactly when Jesus will return. The idea that we can hinder or hasten the return of Christ must be understood in the context of God’s perfect plan.
Tom: If the future is fixed, how can we delay or hinder Christ's coming? It should be clear that we can't. That's my point.
You keep going off on tangents about God's perfect plan and what God does and doesn't know. This does not address my argument.
My argument is that if the future is fixed, we cannot either hasten nor delay Christ's coming. That's very simple logic.
7. No further comment.
8. God is not so shortsighted that He must continually modify and update His perfect plan to accommodate unforeseen circumstances. God will not, indeed, He cannot allow things to turn out less than perfect. I am sharing what makes sense to me, not what Calvin thinks about it. God implemented His perfect plan the moment Adam sinned. Everything that has happened since then is according to God’s perfect plan. God is in absolute, total control of the outcome of the great controversy. Everything is on time and going according to His perfect plan.
Was it God’s intention that sin exist? The fact He created beings He knew would choose to sin says that He was willing to deal with the sin problem. He didn’t make them sin. Dealing with sin has been a part of God's perfect plan from eternity.
PS – I realize you do not agree with me, and that you think I’m missing the point. If I am missing the point, then so be it. But the truth is – we just don’t agree regarding the future and the foreknowledge of God. It might be best if we stop studying this topic for now, and turn our attention to something more fruitful.
Tom: You're right that I think you're missing the point. I made 8 arguments that the future cannot be fixed, and you didn't address that point once although you responded several times to my posts. It's OK to skip to something else, but it would be nice if you would address my arguments, given that you've chosen to respond.
I'm curious as how your vision of things is different than Calvinism. I know you say that your stating things as you see it, but it's so similar to Calvinism that I can't help but think that your thinking has been shaped by Calvinism.
I still haven't gotten a clear answer, that I'm aware of (I apologize if you have answered this somewhere in this topic and I missed it) to the original question, which is if you think that God intended for sin to occur. It seems to me you must think so, based on what you've said, but I'd prefer not to put words in your mouth.
Do you believe that sin entering into the world was a part of "God's perfect plan"?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/05/05 04:23 AM
I don't know the answers to your questions. All I know is what I believe, which I have expressed here. Sorry it was so far off topic. Perhaps someone else can help?
PS - Would you be willing to reread my Jan 4 posts and answer the questions you haven't addressed? Mainly, do you believe God knows the precise day and hour of Jesus return? If so, how long has He known? And, the one concerning Boblee.
PS - Would you be willing to reread my Jan 4 posts and answer the questions you haven't addressed? Mainly, do you believe God knows the precise day and hour of Jesus return? If so, how long has He known? And, the one concerning Boblee.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/05/05 08:46 PM
quote:Does this mean "yes" in answer to the question "Was it God's intention that sin should exist?" It sounds like yes to me, because you wrote, "Dealing with sin has been a part of God's perfect plan from eternity" but I don't want to put words in your mouth.
Was it God’s intention that sin exist? The fact He created beings He knew would choose to sin says that He was willing to deal with the sin problem. He didn’t make them sin. Dealing with sin has been a part of God's perfect plan from eternity.
Regarding God's question in the Garden of Eden, I think God was asking where they were for their own benefit. That is, God knew where they were. I believe God knows all things.
Regarding the question of Christ's coming, I did answer that. I don't believe the future is fixed. I believe inspiration that it is in our power to hasten or delay Christ's coming, and I believe "we" have indeed acted to delay Christ's coming.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/05/05 10:31 PM
I don't like the word "intention" in this context. Sin was inevitable because God created beings He knew would choose to sin. I'm glad we agree regarding the questions God asked in Eden. And, I find it hard to believe God hasn't known the exact day and hour of Jesus' return from eternity. How do you explain what Jesus said about it? See Mark 13:32.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/05/05 11:02 PM
My question involves God's intent. That's the main part of the question. You say that God put events into motions of which the inevitable results were sin. You also say that God's perfect plan involved dealing with sin. This statements imply that it was God's intent that sin should occur. I could ask the question this was (acutally I did)
"Was it a part of God's 'perfect plan' that sin should occur?"
Regarding God's knowing when Christ would come, I think this is a question of autority, not intelligence. Christ knows as much as God does, since He is omniscient as well as God the Father, but the Father has the authority for setting the time. The phrase would be similar to saying, if I had a daughter, I only will know the time that she is mature enough to start dating.
God cannot know the future as fixed, because it isn't fixed. There is no fixed date for Christ's coming. He could have come in the 1850's; not only could have, but would have, had those who were alive then acted differently. He was supposed to come shortly after 1888, and was "disappointed" that He was not able to come. We are able to hasten and delay Christ's coming, and have in fact delayed it. A lot. All of these facts point out that the future is not fixed.
In addition, if the future were fixed, God would be responsible for the entrance of sin, since He could have chosen to create things in such a way that the inevitable results would not have been sin entering into the world.
"Was it a part of God's 'perfect plan' that sin should occur?"
Regarding God's knowing when Christ would come, I think this is a question of autority, not intelligence. Christ knows as much as God does, since He is omniscient as well as God the Father, but the Father has the authority for setting the time. The phrase would be similar to saying, if I had a daughter, I only will know the time that she is mature enough to start dating.
God cannot know the future as fixed, because it isn't fixed. There is no fixed date for Christ's coming. He could have come in the 1850's; not only could have, but would have, had those who were alive then acted differently. He was supposed to come shortly after 1888, and was "disappointed" that He was not able to come. We are able to hasten and delay Christ's coming, and have in fact delayed it. A lot. All of these facts point out that the future is not fixed.
In addition, if the future were fixed, God would be responsible for the entrance of sin, since He could have chosen to create things in such a way that the inevitable results would not have been sin entering into the world.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/06/05 02:58 AM
Perhaps we should end our discussion with the following words of wisdom. And it might be best if we let them speak for themselves, without adding our own comments.
DA 22
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. {DA 22.2}
AG 129
But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. {AG 129.2}
GC 493
Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. {GC 492.2}
DA 22
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. {DA 22.2}
AG 129
But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. {AG 129.2}
GC 493
Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. {GC 492.2}
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/06/05 09:13 AM
Well, Mike...you may wish to bow out, but I think it is up to others whether they wish to close a discussion, don't you, especially since Tom opened the topic??
Tom: The flexibility of the future, in view of God's supreme love of free-will to all His creatures (angels also have free-will), puts much upon the shoulders of the saints, wouldn't you say? If we dodge our responsibilty we hinder His coming, His finishing His work in the Sanctuary, then, as horrific as it may sound, the blood of untold millions upon our hands as a movement. This would needed to be seen, repented of and sent to Him in the Sanctuary, for Him to cleanse us from.
If we as a people had obeyed EGW and eagerly supported missions in Europe, perhaps there would have been no WW1 and WW2...
If we as a people had been faithful to health reform, we would still have real sanitariums, hygenic restaurants and millions would have lived.
If we as a people had been faithful to Bible-based, private education, there wouldn't be the dearth of spirituality in our families and churches..
Etc., etc....The onus is on His followers, not His "timetable", else He would not have held the 4 angels back the destruction that Satan is so eagerly wanting to unleash upon the world.
The normal view I have observed among "fixed futurists" is that God has a "signs" agenda, will force fit people's and nature's events to match the stated signs, and then cruelty & with malice destroy them for not doing what they could not do without Him anyway. Seems like a stacked deck, just like Satan claims.
Tom: The flexibility of the future, in view of God's supreme love of free-will to all His creatures (angels also have free-will), puts much upon the shoulders of the saints, wouldn't you say? If we dodge our responsibilty we hinder His coming, His finishing His work in the Sanctuary, then, as horrific as it may sound, the blood of untold millions upon our hands as a movement. This would needed to be seen, repented of and sent to Him in the Sanctuary, for Him to cleanse us from.
If we as a people had obeyed EGW and eagerly supported missions in Europe, perhaps there would have been no WW1 and WW2...
If we as a people had been faithful to health reform, we would still have real sanitariums, hygenic restaurants and millions would have lived.
If we as a people had been faithful to Bible-based, private education, there wouldn't be the dearth of spirituality in our families and churches..
Etc., etc....The onus is on His followers, not His "timetable", else He would not have held the 4 angels back the destruction that Satan is so eagerly wanting to unleash upon the world.
The normal view I have observed among "fixed futurists" is that God has a "signs" agenda, will force fit people's and nature's events to match the stated signs, and then cruelty & with malice destroy them for not doing what they could not do without Him anyway. Seems like a stacked deck, just like Satan claims.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/06/05 08:18 PM
Yes, of course, Ikan. Please notice that I said end "our" discussion. I didn't mean to imply you cannot continue discussing it. Please, say on. And, I might ask - Since God is not willing that any should perish, which is one of the reasons why Jesus hasn't returned yet, was WWI and WWII God's will? Or, was He willing to deal with them because He wasn't willing that any should be lost by sending Jesus too soon?
2 Peter
3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter
3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Posted By: Boblee
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/08/05 09:39 AM
Mike,
Permit me to look at the subject of this thread from a different perspective. Let me take you back to your high school physics where the nature of light was being studied. Until about the end of the nineteenth century, it was obvious that light consisted of some kind of wave motion in a medium called ether. There were several ways to prove it including the fact that two rotated polarizing filters could completely block a beam of light. Being curious in those days, the scientists wondered about the nature of the medium in which the light traveled. Among other things, since the ether presumably permeated all space, knowledge of its nature would tell them a lot about the nature of the universe. Two men in particular, Michelson and Morley, conducted numerous experiments designed to determine the nature of ether and more specifically, determine the speed and direction Earth was moving within it. But they couldn't find any evidence of an ether at all! That stirred up quite a predicament. They couldn't imagine something wiggling (waves) without something to wiggle in.
Meanwhile, with the advent of radio, people were experimenting with vacuum tubes. One of them noticed that some vacuum tubes acted different when they were in a lighted area than when they were in the dark. With a little experimentation, they found that light was knocking extra electrons out of the metals in the tubes. With more experiments, Compton found that the electrons quit being ejected at a particular wavelength of the light that hit the metal. No matter how strong the light, no electrons would be ejected if the wavelength of the light was longer than that cut-off value (different for different metals). But waves don't have cutoff values like that. Light was acting as if it were little balls rather than waves. Soon many other experiments supported that concept.
So the dilemma deepened. In one lab, it was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that light was a wave motion, it couldn't be little particles. But in the next lab, it was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that light consisted of little particles, it couldn't be wave motion! Did you ever hear of a dilemma like that? Hmmm. One set of scriptures seems to prove beyond any doubt that God can see the future. Another set of scriptures seems to prove beyond any doubt that the future is unknown and unknowable even to God (those scriptures claim man has free will and ability to choose, therefore the future is NOT fixed). Where do we go from here?
In the case of light, someone (I believe it was Einstein) suggested the possibility that light consists of "bundles of waves." In other words, little particles constructed from waves. This concept was developed and today is the standard explanation for the nature of light. In other words, BOTH concepts were correct. But it didn't stop there. Someone wondered, if light can act like particles, could particles (electrons, protons, muons, etc.) act like waves? More experiments. Sure enough, every form of energy we know of can act like either waves or particles (or sometimes both). And from those electrons, we have developed the electron microscope which is much more powerful than a light microscope and developed other instruments using the wave properties of matter. So when an irreconcilable dilemma is encountered, further study often opens up brand new areas of knowledge.
Do you suppose it's possible in the discussion that is transpiring in this thread that BOTH sides are correct? I don't see how it's possible, but neither am I going to discount the possibility that somehow the future in an absolute sense can be known without negating free will among humans and other beings. To me it's something to discuss, something to study, but like many other subjects, nothing to get dogmatic about. Perhaps with further study, new areas of knowledge can be opened up.
RL
Permit me to look at the subject of this thread from a different perspective. Let me take you back to your high school physics where the nature of light was being studied. Until about the end of the nineteenth century, it was obvious that light consisted of some kind of wave motion in a medium called ether. There were several ways to prove it including the fact that two rotated polarizing filters could completely block a beam of light. Being curious in those days, the scientists wondered about the nature of the medium in which the light traveled. Among other things, since the ether presumably permeated all space, knowledge of its nature would tell them a lot about the nature of the universe. Two men in particular, Michelson and Morley, conducted numerous experiments designed to determine the nature of ether and more specifically, determine the speed and direction Earth was moving within it. But they couldn't find any evidence of an ether at all! That stirred up quite a predicament. They couldn't imagine something wiggling (waves) without something to wiggle in.
Meanwhile, with the advent of radio, people were experimenting with vacuum tubes. One of them noticed that some vacuum tubes acted different when they were in a lighted area than when they were in the dark. With a little experimentation, they found that light was knocking extra electrons out of the metals in the tubes. With more experiments, Compton found that the electrons quit being ejected at a particular wavelength of the light that hit the metal. No matter how strong the light, no electrons would be ejected if the wavelength of the light was longer than that cut-off value (different for different metals). But waves don't have cutoff values like that. Light was acting as if it were little balls rather than waves. Soon many other experiments supported that concept.
So the dilemma deepened. In one lab, it was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that light was a wave motion, it couldn't be little particles. But in the next lab, it was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that light consisted of little particles, it couldn't be wave motion! Did you ever hear of a dilemma like that? Hmmm. One set of scriptures seems to prove beyond any doubt that God can see the future. Another set of scriptures seems to prove beyond any doubt that the future is unknown and unknowable even to God (those scriptures claim man has free will and ability to choose, therefore the future is NOT fixed). Where do we go from here?
In the case of light, someone (I believe it was Einstein) suggested the possibility that light consists of "bundles of waves." In other words, little particles constructed from waves. This concept was developed and today is the standard explanation for the nature of light. In other words, BOTH concepts were correct. But it didn't stop there. Someone wondered, if light can act like particles, could particles (electrons, protons, muons, etc.) act like waves? More experiments. Sure enough, every form of energy we know of can act like either waves or particles (or sometimes both). And from those electrons, we have developed the electron microscope which is much more powerful than a light microscope and developed other instruments using the wave properties of matter. So when an irreconcilable dilemma is encountered, further study often opens up brand new areas of knowledge.
Do you suppose it's possible in the discussion that is transpiring in this thread that BOTH sides are correct? I don't see how it's possible, but neither am I going to discount the possibility that somehow the future in an absolute sense can be known without negating free will among humans and other beings. To me it's something to discuss, something to study, but like many other subjects, nothing to get dogmatic about. Perhaps with further study, new areas of knowledge can be opened up.
RL
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/08/05 09:49 AM
You're right Ikan. You're touching on a profound subject.
The Spirit of Prophesy tells us the books in heaven record the sins we would have committed had we had the opportunity. Who of us can claim to have done better than Adam in his shoes? He didn't want to see his wife die alone, so he chose to die with her. And from this choice came all the sin there is in the world.
The Spirit of Prophesy tells us the books in heaven record the sins we would have committed had we had the opportunity. Who of us can claim to have done better than Adam in his shoes? He didn't want to see his wife die alone, so he chose to die with her. And from this choice came all the sin there is in the world.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/08/05 09:59 AM
Boblee:
I think both principles are true. God knows the future perfectly and completely, just as it is. But it is not completely determined. It is determined by free moral agents when they make free choices. Therefore God does not know a determined future, because He cannot know something which doesn't exist. But He does know the future, just as it is.
I think both principles are true. God knows the future perfectly and completely, just as it is. But it is not completely determined. It is determined by free moral agents when they make free choices. Therefore God does not know a determined future, because He cannot know something which doesn't exist. But He does know the future, just as it is.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/08/05 05:13 PM
I don't mean to be a party-pooper, Boblee, but I am not convinced light is matter. But regarding the future I am convinced God knows it like watching a rerun, and that it doesn't rob us of our freedom to choose. There are many reasons I believe this, the main one being prophecy. God can foretell the future because He knows the future, intimnately and perfectly. Like you, though, I do not insist that others agree with this view of God's foreknowledge.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/09/05 01:27 AM
quote:I think Mike's SOP quotes deserves some kind of a response as they seem to be cut and dry quotes to me that should clearly answer the question of this topic.
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Perhaps we should end our discussion with the following words of wisdom. And it might be best if we let them speak for themselves, without adding our own comments.
DA 22
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. {DA 22.2}
AG 129
But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. {AG 129.2}
GC 493
Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. {GC 492.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/09/05 03:59 AM
quote:He asked me not to comment, so I didn't. But since you are a moderator, and thus outrank him, I'll respond as requested.
DA 22
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. {DA 22.2}
AG 129
But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. {AG 129.2}
GC 493
Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. {GC 492.2}
It is Mike's contention that the future is fixed, or determined, and it is mine that it is not. The first two statements appear to support his position, and the last one mine. Other statements which support my position are:
quote:
Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. (COL 196)
quote:
He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss. The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril.
(DA 49)
quote:
It is the privilege of every Christian not only to look for but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (2 Peter 3:12, margin). (COL 69)
quote:There are 7 statements to consider here. If the future is fixed, then the last 5 make no sense. If God set into motion events of which the inevitable result was sin, as Mike contends, then clearly God is responsible for sin. That contradicts statement #3.
Had the purpose of God been carried out by His people in giving to the world the message of mercy, Christ would, ere this, have come to the earth, and the saints would have received their welcome into the city of God. (6T 450)
The concept of risk is contrary to the concept of a fixed future. Clearly if the future is fixed, then there was no risk involved in sending Christ. The chance of Christ's success would have been 100%. That's risk-free. So a fixed future would contradict statements #4 and #5.
The idea that we can hasten Christ's coming is contrary to the idea of a fixed future. If the future is fixed, Christ's coming cannot be altered. That should be evident. Similarly, if Christ's coming cannot be altered, it makes no sense that He would have come earlier under certain conditions, since it's impossible that He could have come earlier. So this contradicts statements #6 and #7.
I believe there is no contradiction to statements #1 and #2 if the future is not fixed. God foresaw the possibility of sin from the beginning and made provision for it. But sin was in no sense inevitable, as statement #3 makes clear.
This statement brings out the principle I have in mind:
quote:God provided the remedy in the sense that should the need arise, the remedy was ready.
God's healing power runs all through nature. If a tree is cut, if a human being is wounded or breaks a bone, nature begins at once to repair the injury. Even before the need exists, the healing agencies are in readiness; and as soon as a part is wounded, every energy is bent to the work of restoration. So it is in the spiritual realm. Before sin created the need, God had provided the remedy. (Ed. 113)
Here's another statement which brings out that the fixed future idea doesn't make sense;
quote:This whole scene is completely unintelligible if it did not happen in real time. That is, if God knew from all eternity that man was destined to sin when he did, then the whole scene is simply play acting.
Sorrow filled heaven as it was realized that man was lost and that the world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and that there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I then saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, "He is in close converse with His Father." The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe...
Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them. (EW 127)
Plus there's a very important factor which may be a bit subtle. This is, why was God the Father hesitant? At fist glace we get the picture that Jesus loves us more than God, which is absurd. Yet we see Jesus saying, "send Me, send Me, send Me" and *finally* after much cajoling God finally relents and allows man to be saved. The angel relates it was a "struggle" to allow Christ to come.
Why? The reason is that it was a risk for Christ to come. If we understand that point, then the whole thing makes sense.
God knew sin could happen, and the plans were made for Christ to become incarnate and meet the risk of eternal loss should that be necessary. When it did become necessary, those plans we discussed. God decided to go ahead with the plan, although it was a struggle.
Again, if the future is fixed, the whole scene is a sham, and God is less willing for us to be saved then Jesus.
Just in case you're interested, following is a list of Scriptures which support the view that the future is not fixed:
Gen. 2:19 | Gen. 6:5–6 | Gen. 22:12 | Exod. 3:18–4:9 | Exod. 4:10–16 | Exod. 13:17 | Exod. 16:4 | Exod. 32:14 | Exod. 32:33 | Exod. 33:1–3, 14 | Num. 11:1–2 | Num. 14:11 | Num. 14:12–20 | Num. 16:20–35 | Num. 16:41–48 | Deut. 8:2 | Deut. 9:13–14, 18–20, 25 | Deut. 13:1–3 | Deut. 30:19 | Judg. 2:20–3:5 | Judg. 10:13–15 | 1 Sam. 2:27–31 | 1 Sam. 13:13–14 | 1 Sam. 15:10 | 1 Sam. 15:35 | 1 Sam. 23:9–13 | 2 Sam. 24:12–16 | 2 Sam. 24:17–25 | 1 Kings 21:27–29 | 2 Kings 13:3–5 | 2 Kings 20:1–7 | 1 Chron. 21:7–13 | 1 Chron. 21:15 | 2 Chron. 7:12–14 | 2 Chron. 12:5–8 | 2 Chron. 32:31 | Psalm 106:23 | Isa. 5:3–7 | Isa. 38:1–5 | Jer. 3:6–7 | Jer. 3:19–20 | Jer. 7:5–7 | Jer. 18:7–11 | Jer. 19:5 | Jer. 26:2–3 | Jer. 26:19 | Jer. 32:35 | Jer. 38:17–18, 20–21, 23 | Ezek. 12:1–3 | Ezek. 20:5–22 | Ezek. 22:29–31 | Ezek. 33:13–15 | Hosea 8:5 | Hosea 11:8–9 | Joel 2:13–14 | Amos 7:1–6 | Jonah 1:2; 3:2, 4–10; 4:2 | Matt. 25:41 | Matt. 26:39 | Acts 15:7 | Acts 21:10–12 | 2 Pet. 3:9–12 | Rev. 3:5 | Rev. 22:18
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/09/05 06:05 AM
Amen Tom,
God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence.
In the light of the topic question here which of the following two would be the proper understanding of the above statement?
" God did not intend that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence."
or
" God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He intended its existence."
Which is in keeping with the original thought?
How do we understand the foreseeing as expressed above?
That which is cut and dry needs the oil of the spirit.
Shalom
God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence.
In the light of the topic question here which of the following two would be the proper understanding of the above statement?
" God did not intend that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence."
or
" God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He intended its existence."
Which is in keeping with the original thought?
How do we understand the foreseeing as expressed above?
That which is cut and dry needs the oil of the spirit.
Shalom
Posted By: Boblee
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/09/05 08:01 AM
So, Tom,
Are you trying to say that in spite of the conventional understanding of the Adventist church and all those quotes by Daryl and Mike that God is not just a pre-programmed computer after all?
RL
Are you trying to say that in spite of the conventional understanding of the Adventist church and all those quotes by Daryl and Mike that God is not just a pre-programmed computer after all?
RL
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/09/05 09:24 AM
Daryl just reposted Mike's quotes, and they are certainly legitimate quotes to consider.
A problem I have with the traditional view that the future is fixed or determined is I that the logical theological development from that is the Calvinistic perspective. Mike's logical derivations from this premise (that the future is fixed) are sound, I believe, just not in harmony with inspiration (although very similar to Calvinistic theology).
For example, Mike writes that God is the "author of death" and something similar relating to sin. I believe these deductions are valid, but they don't agree with the statements that God is not the author of sin, suffering and death; rather that is how Satan attempts to portray Him.
Similarly Mike's deductions that Christ's coming must be fixed, and thus we cannot hasten or delay His coming are also valid. These also do not agree with the statements from inspiration that we *can* hasten and delay His coming, and indeed have.
All the problems stem from a faulty premise. Inspiration does not present the view that the future is fixed; only the view that God knows the future. But God's knowledge of the future must be in harmony with what He has revealed.
A problem I have with the traditional view that the future is fixed or determined is I that the logical theological development from that is the Calvinistic perspective. Mike's logical derivations from this premise (that the future is fixed) are sound, I believe, just not in harmony with inspiration (although very similar to Calvinistic theology).
For example, Mike writes that God is the "author of death" and something similar relating to sin. I believe these deductions are valid, but they don't agree with the statements that God is not the author of sin, suffering and death; rather that is how Satan attempts to portray Him.
Similarly Mike's deductions that Christ's coming must be fixed, and thus we cannot hasten or delay His coming are also valid. These also do not agree with the statements from inspiration that we *can* hasten and delay His coming, and indeed have.
All the problems stem from a faulty premise. Inspiration does not present the view that the future is fixed; only the view that God knows the future. But God's knowledge of the future must be in harmony with what He has revealed.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/09/05 04:42 PM
What do you mean by valid?
How does valid relate to truth?
Shalom
How does valid relate to truth?
Shalom
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/09/05 05:28 PM
Tom, please do not hesitate to quote the truths I have shared regarding these things in their full context.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/10/05 12:51 AM
Mike, I was trying to be careful to correctly represent your views. My point was that if one holds that the future is fixed (like a T.V. rerun, as you put it), then if one reasons logically, that will lead to the positions you hold:
1) God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable.
2) God is the author of death.
3) "Was sinning inevitable? Of course it was."
I believe I stated these view accurately, as well as your views related to Christ's second coming. If you think I have misrepresent a view you hold, or have created a false impression by not providing context, please don't hesitate to clarify.
1) God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable.
2) God is the author of death.
3) "Was sinning inevitable? Of course it was."
I believe I stated these view accurately, as well as your views related to Christ's second coming. If you think I have misrepresent a view you hold, or have created a false impression by not providing context, please don't hesitate to clarify.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/10/05 04:21 AM
So Tom, what I understand you saying by 'valid' is that Mike's deductions and reasoning follow through on his fundamental concept, which is not necessarily to be truth.
I think you have outlined his basic concept well. Do you agree Mike.
Shalom
I think you have outlined his basic concept well. Do you agree Mike.
Shalom
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/10/05 07:22 AM
God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death were inevitable. You have yet to disprove this premise.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/11/05 06:55 AM
Mike said,
Prove to me Mike that a "Kratchon" does not exist. I say it does.
I think Mike, you are wise enough to know that what you are asking is an unreasonable request. The task is to discover the truth, and not to start with an allegation and then require others to prove it wrong.
One is 'innocent until proven guilty' and not 'considered guilty until proven innocent'.
Mike Your position is dangerous and sad. You have alleged God with certain attributes, and you want it proven to you that it is not so.
Christ said,
* That Satan is the Father of Lies and Murderer from the begining. – You have charged God with those attributes
* That his death on the cross was the work of darkness – You have charged God with that work.
I will not delineate further. The testimony of Christ renders a very different picture than your premise.
I guess Mike you should realize that your premise is an allegation and not founded on Christ.
With brotherly love and concern
quote:This is an arbitrary and imperical statement. Why should we disprove that which you cannot prove, but can only allege.
God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death were inevitable. You have yet to disprove this premise.
Prove to me Mike that a "Kratchon" does not exist. I say it does.
I think Mike, you are wise enough to know that what you are asking is an unreasonable request. The task is to discover the truth, and not to start with an allegation and then require others to prove it wrong.
One is 'innocent until proven guilty' and not 'considered guilty until proven innocent'.
Mike Your position is dangerous and sad. You have alleged God with certain attributes, and you want it proven to you that it is not so.
Christ said,
* That Satan is the Father of Lies and Murderer from the begining. – You have charged God with those attributes
* That his death on the cross was the work of darkness – You have charged God with that work.
I will not delineate further. The testimony of Christ renders a very different picture than your premise.
I guess Mike you should realize that your premise is an allegation and not founded on Christ.
With brotherly love and concern
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/11/05 08:37 AM
quote:This has been disproved many times.
God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death were inevitable. You have yet to disprove this premise.
quote:
The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, [Satan] charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. Jesus was to unveil this deception. (DA 24)
quote:The following statement also disproves it:
Nothing is more plainly taught in
Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin. (GC 492)
quote:
God is love. (1 John 4:8)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/11/05 05:15 PM
A quick review of this thread, and others like it, provide the proof over and over again. It has come down to what each of us believe about foreknowledge of God. I believe the Godhead knew ahead of time, before they created free moral agents, that Lucifer and one third of the angels would rebel and that Adam and Eve would fall.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/12/05 12:17 AM
Mike, you believe God put into motion events of which the inevitable result was sin. This would make God responsible for the entrance of sin. You also have beliefs about God's foreknowledge which make statements regarding risk -- for example, God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal lost -- and hastening Christ's return non-sensical. And here's something which really doesn't make sense from an Augustinian perspective:
quote:Assuming the Augstinian idea that God had know from all eternity what He was going to do, how could it have been a "struggle"? What sense would it make to say Jesus was "pleading" with God assuming they both knew this moment was coming from all eternity? And why would Jesus have to "plead" with God anyway? Doesn't God love us as much as Jesus does? The pleading only makes sense when we realize that God sent His Son at the risk of failuer and eternal loss.
Sorrow filled heaven as it was realized that man was lost and that the world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and that there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I then saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, "He is in close converse with His Father." The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe. He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that [u]He had been pleading with His Father[/u], and had obtained permission to give His own life as a ransom for the race, to bear their sins, and take the sentence of death upon Himself, thus opening a way whereby they might, through the merits of His blood, find pardon for past transgressions, and by obedience be brought back to the garden from which they were driven.
Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." [u]It was even a struggle with the God of heaven[/u], whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them. (EW 126)
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/12/05 07:28 AM
Mike said,
With loving concern
quote:Mike, the biggest warning and proof that your basis is eroneous is the character attributes which you are forced to impose upon God as a result of your presupposition.
I believe the Godhead knew ahead of time, before they created free moral agents, that Lucifer and one third of the angels would rebel and that Adam and Eve would fall.
With loving concern
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/12/05 06:54 PM
John, I am not alone in what I believe. Sister White taught exactly the same thing. Do you agree with her?
AG 23
The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal" (Rom. 16:5, R.V.). It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. . . . God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." {AG 23.4}
As soon as there was sin, there was a Saviour. Christ knew that He would have to suffer, yet He became man's substitute. As soon as Adam sinned, the Son of God presented Himself as surety for the human race, with just as much power to avert the doom pronounced upon the guilty as when He died upon the cross of Calvary. {AG 23.5}
AG 129
The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. . . . Therefore redemption was not an afterthought . . . but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {AG 129.2}
AG 23
The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal" (Rom. 16:5, R.V.). It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. . . . God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." {AG 23.4}
As soon as there was sin, there was a Saviour. Christ knew that He would have to suffer, yet He became man's substitute. As soon as Adam sinned, the Son of God presented Himself as surety for the human race, with just as much power to avert the doom pronounced upon the guilty as when He died upon the cross of Calvary. {AG 23.5}
AG 129
The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. . . . Therefore redemption was not an afterthought . . . but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {AG 129.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/12/05 06:59 PM
Tom, answer this question, please. Was sin or sinning possible before the Godhead created free moral agents? Yes or no would be sufficient.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/13/05 03:21 AM
"John, I am not alone in what I believe. Sister White taught exactly the same thing."
She didn't believe anything like what you believe. You believe, "God created a situation, by creating free moral agents, who were capable of sinning and dying, and who, according to His foreknowledge, were destined to sin and die."
You believe, "Giving Satan the credit for creating sin and death robs God of His power and authority and His sovereignty."
You believe, "God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable."
She said, on the other hand, that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin.
You believe, "God is the author of death."
She said, on the other hand, "The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, [Satan] charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. Jesus was to unveil this deception."
Regarding your question of whether sin was possible before the creation of creatures who could sin, this is tantamount to asking if God could sin, right? Since He was the only being alive before He created other beings. I don't believe it's possible for God to sin, so no, I don't believe it was possible for sin to exist before God created beings who could sin. However, once He did create beings who could sin, then sin was possible, even in an environment in which there was no sin at all, hence destroying sinners is not sufficient to destroy sin, since it could arise again. In fact, this was a very real danger, which the Spirit of Prophesy warns against in DA 764, pointing out that if God had allowed Satan and his sympathizers to reap what they had sown, it would have left an "evil seed" of doubt.
The cross was necesssary in order that sin could be seen in its true light, and it is the cross which guarantees that sin will never arise again.
She didn't believe anything like what you believe. You believe, "God created a situation, by creating free moral agents, who were capable of sinning and dying, and who, according to His foreknowledge, were destined to sin and die."
You believe, "Giving Satan the credit for creating sin and death robs God of His power and authority and His sovereignty."
You believe, "God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable."
She said, on the other hand, that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin.
You believe, "God is the author of death."
She said, on the other hand, "The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, [Satan] charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. Jesus was to unveil this deception."
Regarding your question of whether sin was possible before the creation of creatures who could sin, this is tantamount to asking if God could sin, right? Since He was the only being alive before He created other beings. I don't believe it's possible for God to sin, so no, I don't believe it was possible for sin to exist before God created beings who could sin. However, once He did create beings who could sin, then sin was possible, even in an environment in which there was no sin at all, hence destroying sinners is not sufficient to destroy sin, since it could arise again. In fact, this was a very real danger, which the Spirit of Prophesy warns against in DA 764, pointing out that if God had allowed Satan and his sympathizers to reap what they had sown, it would have left an "evil seed" of doubt.
The cross was necesssary in order that sin could be seen in its true light, and it is the cross which guarantees that sin will never arise again.
Posted By: Boblee
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/13/05 08:42 AM
John,
A few posts back, you posted that
"The task is to discover the truth, and not to start with an allegation and then require others to prove it wrong."
Actually, that procedure is very close to inductive logic on which most scientific knowledge is based. After data is recorded, a guess is made as to how the data should be interpreted. Then that interpretation is expanded to areas not yet known. Next new data is taken in the field of the expansion to see if the interpretation is correct. If not you start over. If so, you have the beginnings of new knowledge.
That procedure, called the scientific method, can be applied to learning scripture as well as to knowledge of the physical world. So Mike's statement is not as unreasonable as it sounds.
In scriptural studies, an attempt should be made to find all the data and a relation among them. Unfortunately there are many contradictions in scripture, usually in its interpretation. That's why people have so many different ideas about what the scriptures say. The task then becomes either trying to understand what's wrong with one or the other concept, or trying to find a connection between concepts.
But there's another issue involved. Each of us come to God and His scriptures with different backgrounds and different needs. One may need the security of "knowing" that God has all those attributes He has been endowed with by various theologians while another may need the "knowledge" that God has given him/her free will. I believe God presents Himself to each person in the manner that person needs. So except for suggesting alternate interpretations of theological questions, it is probably unnecessary to attempt changing each other's perceptions.
RL
A few posts back, you posted that
"The task is to discover the truth, and not to start with an allegation and then require others to prove it wrong."
Actually, that procedure is very close to inductive logic on which most scientific knowledge is based. After data is recorded, a guess is made as to how the data should be interpreted. Then that interpretation is expanded to areas not yet known. Next new data is taken in the field of the expansion to see if the interpretation is correct. If not you start over. If so, you have the beginnings of new knowledge.
That procedure, called the scientific method, can be applied to learning scripture as well as to knowledge of the physical world. So Mike's statement is not as unreasonable as it sounds.
In scriptural studies, an attempt should be made to find all the data and a relation among them. Unfortunately there are many contradictions in scripture, usually in its interpretation. That's why people have so many different ideas about what the scriptures say. The task then becomes either trying to understand what's wrong with one or the other concept, or trying to find a connection between concepts.
But there's another issue involved. Each of us come to God and His scriptures with different backgrounds and different needs. One may need the security of "knowing" that God has all those attributes He has been endowed with by various theologians while another may need the "knowledge" that God has given him/her free will. I believe God presents Himself to each person in the manner that person needs. So except for suggesting alternate interpretations of theological questions, it is probably unnecessary to attempt changing each other's perceptions.
RL
Posted By: Charity
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/13/05 02:37 PM
I don't think I've posted on this before. I also believe God never intended sin to exist. I scanned your summary Tom on Jan 12 of Mike's position. If those are direct quotes I also see some trouble with them.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/13/05 05:12 PM
quote:At least we agree on this point. I did notice though that you used the word “He” instead of “They” when referring to the Godhead before They created free moral agents, which makes me wonder what you believe about the Trinity. But that’s another topic.
I don't believe it was possible for sin to exist before God created beings who could sin.
quote:I disagree. Destroying sinners is more than sufficient to eliminate sin and sinning.
… hence destroying sinners is not sufficient to destroy sin, since it could arise again.
quote:Yes and no. The cross is what motivates the redeemed to not sin, but it is the foreknowledge and promise of God that guarantees affliction will not arise the second time. See Nahum 1:9.
… it is the cross which guarantees that sin will never arise again.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/13/05 05:21 PM
Mark, in the course of studying with Tom I have made strong statements to make a point. If you haven't read through this thread, from the beginning, then maybe you can answer this question:
Since sinning was not possible before the Godhead created free moral agents, and since They knew in advance that one third of the angels would choose to sin, and that Adam and Eve would also choose to sin, and since They chose to create these free moral agents in spite of these facts - Did the Godhead introduce a situation where sin and death were inevitable?
Since sinning was not possible before the Godhead created free moral agents, and since They knew in advance that one third of the angels would choose to sin, and that Adam and Eve would also choose to sin, and since They chose to create these free moral agents in spite of these facts - Did the Godhead introduce a situation where sin and death were inevitable?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/13/05 08:52 PM
God, or They, created other beings, angels, etc. in spite of the eventual entrance of sin, not to bring about sin, but to bring about other free-willed beings with whom to fellowship with.
It's kind of hard to fellowship with a robot.
It's kind of hard to fellowship with a robot.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/13/05 11:23 PM
Mark: Yes, they are all direct quotes.
Daryl: Right. God created beings with free will, which includes the risk that they would use that free will to rebel against Him, which is unfortunately what happened.
Mike: The common way of referring to God is "He." In Portuguese, Catholics use the plural voice to address God, but Adventists do not. I would suspect that practice is common to other languages as well. In English the common way to refer to the Godhead is "He." Does Ellen White ever refer to God as "they"? I don't believe so. I'd certainly be interested in seeing an example of this. (I'd be shocked if there were such an example; she talks about the three persons of the Godhead - Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but to my knowledge never uses a plural pronoun to refer to God).
Admin people: Every other forum I attend has the "Preview" buton on the left, and the "Post" button on the right, which from time to time, when I don't make a conscious effort, leads me to make posts when I'm trying to review them. This is just an observation.
Daryl: Right. God created beings with free will, which includes the risk that they would use that free will to rebel against Him, which is unfortunately what happened.
Mike: The common way of referring to God is "He." In Portuguese, Catholics use the plural voice to address God, but Adventists do not. I would suspect that practice is common to other languages as well. In English the common way to refer to the Godhead is "He." Does Ellen White ever refer to God as "they"? I don't believe so. I'd certainly be interested in seeing an example of this. (I'd be shocked if there were such an example; she talks about the three persons of the Godhead - Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but to my knowledge never uses a plural pronoun to refer to God).
Admin people: Every other forum I attend has the "Preview" buton on the left, and the "Post" button on the right, which from time to time, when I don't make a conscious effort, leads me to make posts when I'm trying to review them. This is just an observation.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/15/05 06:04 PM
"The task is to discover the truth, and not to start with an allegation and then require others to prove it wrong."
Boblee said,
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
But we are not orphans. Chist said Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Christ already came and disproved that allegation, with his life and death, and now he invites us to learn of him. He is the way, the truth, and the life. And from him we can learn it.
Boblee said,
quote:That is very true in respect to orphaned Science. They have no one to learn from, you see. And if that is the case we are all doomed, for it is written.
Actually, that procedure is very close to inductive logic on which most scientific knowledge is based. After data is recorded, a guess is made as to how the data should be interpreted. Then that interpretation is expanded to areas not yet known. Next new data is taken in the field of the expansion to see if the interpretation is correct. If not you start over. If so, you have the beginnings of new knowledge.
That procedure, called the scientific method, can be applied to learning scripture as well as to knowledge of the physical world. So Mike's statement is not as unreasonable as it sounds.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
But we are not orphans. Chist said Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Christ already came and disproved that allegation, with his life and death, and now he invites us to learn of him. He is the way, the truth, and the life. And from him we can learn it.
Posted By: Boblee
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/19/05 04:03 AM
John,
Why did you say "orphaned Science?" Are you biased concerning the way God expects us to learn about what He created? When God said "come let us reason together" (Is 1:18), what do you think He meant? God started out our civilization by asking Adam to name the animals (Gen 2:19). By your thinking, God should have informed Adam what the names of the animals were. Throughout scripture, God seems to want us to learn from experience, not by decree.
Actually, you changed the subject. God did indeed pass on information about various subjects. He still does through His Spirit (John 16:13-15). But He doesn't pass on information about every subject, even spiritual subjects. Also through various redactors and translators, what God meant by what He said is often obscure to us. It is through logic and reasoning (basically the same method scientists use to make sense of the universe) that we come to an understanding of what God was trying to tell us. We know, of course, that God gave Mrs. White illumination on many subjects which have guided the Adventist church through many difficulties. But are you aware that God never gave visions to her on any subject until she and others had studied the Bible (using methods like I was pointing out) until they felt they understood it thoroughly or could go no further?
So please don't denigrate the method God gave us for learning.
RL
Why did you say "orphaned Science?" Are you biased concerning the way God expects us to learn about what He created? When God said "come let us reason together" (Is 1:18), what do you think He meant? God started out our civilization by asking Adam to name the animals (Gen 2:19). By your thinking, God should have informed Adam what the names of the animals were. Throughout scripture, God seems to want us to learn from experience, not by decree.
Actually, you changed the subject. God did indeed pass on information about various subjects. He still does through His Spirit (John 16:13-15). But He doesn't pass on information about every subject, even spiritual subjects. Also through various redactors and translators, what God meant by what He said is often obscure to us. It is through logic and reasoning (basically the same method scientists use to make sense of the universe) that we come to an understanding of what God was trying to tell us. We know, of course, that God gave Mrs. White illumination on many subjects which have guided the Adventist church through many difficulties. But are you aware that God never gave visions to her on any subject until she and others had studied the Bible (using methods like I was pointing out) until they felt they understood it thoroughly or could go no further?
So please don't denigrate the method God gave us for learning.
RL
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/22/05 03:23 AM
I do not wish to derail this topic Boblee,
Psa 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
Psa 32:9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
As far as Science, I think it is fairly commonly known that they have taken the basis that God does not exist (with a few exceptions).
But putting this topic back on track,
Mike's question. "Was sin or sinning possible before the Godhead created free moral agents?"
I would like to ask a counter-question
Did God create free moral agents with the possibility and ability to live without sin or sinning? Was it possible for created free moral agents to live without sinning?
quote:He meant that we should not be reasoning apart from him. It is this apart from him reasoning that makes our sins as scarlet, but reasoning with him makes us white as snow.
Are you biased concerning the way God expects us to learn about what He created? When God said "come let us reason together" (Is 1:18), what do you think He meant?
Psa 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
Psa 32:9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
As far as Science, I think it is fairly commonly known that they have taken the basis that God does not exist (with a few exceptions).
But putting this topic back on track,
Mike's question. "Was sin or sinning possible before the Godhead created free moral agents?"
I would like to ask a counter-question
Did God create free moral agents with the possibility and ability to live without sin or sinning? Was it possible for created free moral agents to live without sinning?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/22/05 05:17 AM
I think this is a pertinent thought in this topic.
When God created man, Satan was not banished to this planet. He had full roam of heaven, only he had lost his position of covering cherub. On this planet he was not allowed anywhere but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The rest of the planet was under the dominion and authority of Man. After man fell then it was that Satan took the dominion and authority from man.
It was not until the cross that Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven and there was no more room found for him in heaven, but he had plenty of recipients here on earth.
When God created man, Satan was not banished to this planet. He had full roam of heaven, only he had lost his position of covering cherub. On this planet he was not allowed anywhere but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The rest of the planet was under the dominion and authority of Man. After man fell then it was that Satan took the dominion and authority from man.
It was not until the cross that Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven and there was no more room found for him in heaven, but he had plenty of recipients here on earth.
Posted By: Boblee
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/22/05 06:10 AM
John,
Thank you for your reasoned response. You had me worried for a moment. Back to the main subject, though, let me voice an opinion with some prelude:
You asked, "Was it possible for created free moral agents to live without sinning?" It seems that there are several opinions of what "sin" or "sinning" really is. Some have promoted the thought that "missing the mark" is sin. But isn't that the essence of all engineering work? You try something and see if it works. If not, try something else. Keep trying until you find what does work. Ideally, you learn from each experiment that not only leads to answers to the problem you are trying to solve, but leads to answers to related questions as well. When Edison, for instance, was accused of learning nothing from trying 500 materials with which to make light bulb filaments, he replied that he had learned a lot: he now knew of 500 materials which don't work!
Others have suggested that intangibles such as worry, procrastination, fear, anger, distrust, etc. constitute sin. But what does the Bible say about sin? There are two concepts to consider. First is the concept outlined in I John 5:13 ff which basically says there are two kinds of sin. One is unto death and the other one IS NOT unto death. In all the sermons, books, papers, and discussions I have encountered, I have never heard this concept discussed. It is interesting, and a lot more could be said about the two kinds of sin and the two kinds of law that I believe they represent.
However, the second concept seems to answer your question more succinctly. It is found in I John 3:4 which says "sin is lawlessness." Woops, did I hear you say, "that's not what the Bible says?" Herein, I believe is the big problem in our paradigm of salvation. If you go back to the original Greek of that text, you will find it should be translated as I quoted it. All modern translations use some version of "lawlessness" instead of "transgression of the law." Notice, transgression is something you do. An action, an activity, movement. Thus from King James mistranslation of this text, we commonly think of sin as wrongdoing. Or perhaps of thinking the wrong way or of the way we feel. But what of lawlessness? There are, perhaps, some elements of action, but the basis of lawlessness is our attitude. As Jesus said, hating is the real sin, not the murder and lusting is the basis of adultery. Notice that murder and adultery can be forgiven, but how do you pardon hatred or lust? Much can be said about this concept also including its relation to the first concept I mentioned, but let's see how your question fits into these concepts.
If we can agree that the sin which separates us from God is an attitude of rebellion or resistance or disobedience, we've greatly narrowed the question. Throughout scriptures I find God urging us to control our attitude, so I feel it must be possible. But that covers the rest of your question. Therefore it must be possible for created free moral agents to live without sinning? Furthermore, I believe it is also possible for us today to live out our lives without sinning.
RL
Thank you for your reasoned response. You had me worried for a moment. Back to the main subject, though, let me voice an opinion with some prelude:
You asked, "Was it possible for created free moral agents to live without sinning?" It seems that there are several opinions of what "sin" or "sinning" really is. Some have promoted the thought that "missing the mark" is sin. But isn't that the essence of all engineering work? You try something and see if it works. If not, try something else. Keep trying until you find what does work. Ideally, you learn from each experiment that not only leads to answers to the problem you are trying to solve, but leads to answers to related questions as well. When Edison, for instance, was accused of learning nothing from trying 500 materials with which to make light bulb filaments, he replied that he had learned a lot: he now knew of 500 materials which don't work!
Others have suggested that intangibles such as worry, procrastination, fear, anger, distrust, etc. constitute sin. But what does the Bible say about sin? There are two concepts to consider. First is the concept outlined in I John 5:13 ff which basically says there are two kinds of sin. One is unto death and the other one IS NOT unto death. In all the sermons, books, papers, and discussions I have encountered, I have never heard this concept discussed. It is interesting, and a lot more could be said about the two kinds of sin and the two kinds of law that I believe they represent.
However, the second concept seems to answer your question more succinctly. It is found in I John 3:4 which says "sin is lawlessness." Woops, did I hear you say, "that's not what the Bible says?" Herein, I believe is the big problem in our paradigm of salvation. If you go back to the original Greek of that text, you will find it should be translated as I quoted it. All modern translations use some version of "lawlessness" instead of "transgression of the law." Notice, transgression is something you do. An action, an activity, movement. Thus from King James mistranslation of this text, we commonly think of sin as wrongdoing. Or perhaps of thinking the wrong way or of the way we feel. But what of lawlessness? There are, perhaps, some elements of action, but the basis of lawlessness is our attitude. As Jesus said, hating is the real sin, not the murder and lusting is the basis of adultery. Notice that murder and adultery can be forgiven, but how do you pardon hatred or lust? Much can be said about this concept also including its relation to the first concept I mentioned, but let's see how your question fits into these concepts.
If we can agree that the sin which separates us from God is an attitude of rebellion or resistance or disobedience, we've greatly narrowed the question. Throughout scriptures I find God urging us to control our attitude, so I feel it must be possible. But that covers the rest of your question. Therefore it must be possible for created free moral agents to live without sinning? Furthermore, I believe it is also possible for us today to live out our lives without sinning.
RL
Posted By: John H.
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/22/05 03:09 PM
John B. wrote,
quote:John, that's not true. Satan was cast out of heaven before the creation of the earth. Early Writings pages 145-146 makes this plain:
When God created man, Satan was not banished to this planet. He had full roam of heaven, only he had lost his position of covering cherub....
It was not until the cross that Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven and there was no more room found for him in heaven,...
"Until this time all heaven had been in order, harmony, and perfect subjection to the government of God. It was the highest sin to rebel against His order and will. All heaven seemed in commotion. The angels were marshaled in companies, each division with a higher commanding angel at its head. Satan, ambitious to exalt himself, and unwilling to submit to the authority of Jesus, was insinuating against the government of God. Some of the angels sympathized with Satan in his rebellion, and others strongly contended for the honor and wisdom of God in giving authority to His Son. There was contention among the angels. Satan and his sympathizers were striving to reform the government of God. They wished to look into His unsearchable wisdom, and ascertain His purpose in exalting Jesus and endowing Him with such unlimited power and command. They rebelled against the authority of the Son. All the heavenly host were summoned to appear before the Father to have each case decided. It was there determined that Satan should be expelled from heaven, with all the angels who had joined him in the rebellion. Then there was war in heaven. Angels were engaged in the battle; Satan wished to conquer the Son of God and those who were submissive to His will. But the good and true angels prevailed, and Satan, with his followers, was driven from heaven.Also Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1, pages 22-24:
{EW 145.2}
"After Satan and those who fell with him were shut out of heaven, and he realized that he had forever lost all its purity and glory, he repented, and wished to be reinstated in heaven. He was willing to take his proper place, or any position that might be assigned him. But no; heaven must not be placed in jeopardy. All heaven might be marred should he be taken back; for sin originated with him, and the seeds of rebellion were within him. Both he and his followers wept, and implored to be taken back into the favor of God. But their sin -- their hatred, their envy and jealousy -- had been so great that God could not blot it out. It must remain to receive its final punishment.
{EW 146.1}
"When Satan became fully conscious that there was no possibility of his being brought again into favor with God, his malice and hatred began to be manifest. He consulted with his angels, and a plan was laid to still work against God's government. When Adam and Eve were placed in the beautiful garden, Satan was laying plans to destroy them. In no way could this happy couple be deprived of their happiness if they obeyed God. Satan could not exercise his power upon them unless they should first disobey God and forfeit His favor. Some plan must therefore be devised to lead them to disobedience that they might incur God's frown and be brought under the more direct influence of Satan and his angels. It was decided that Satan should assume another form and manifest an interest for man. He must insinuate against God's truthfulness and create doubt whether God did mean just what He said; next, he must excite their curiosity, and lead them to pry into the unsearchable plans of God -- the very sin of which Satan had been guilty -- and reason as to the cause of His restrictions in regard to the tree of knowledge."
{EW 146.2}
"Then there was war in Heaven. The Son of God, the Prince of Heaven, and His loyal angels, engaged in conflict with the arch rebel and those who united with him. The Son of God and true, loyal angels prevailed; and Satan and his sympathizers were expelled from Heaven. All the heavenly host acknowledged and adored the God of justice. Not a taint of rebellion was left in Heaven. All was again peaceful and harmonious as before.
{1SP 22.3}
"Angels in Heaven mourned the fate of those who had been their companions in happiness and bliss. Their loss was felt in Heaven. The Father consulted Jesus in regard to at once carrying out their purpose to make man to inhabit the earth. He would place man upon probation to test his loyalty, before he could be rendered eternally secure. If he endured the test wherewith God saw fit to prove him, he should eventually be equal with the angels. He was to have the favor of God, and he was to converse with angels, and they with him. He did not see fit to place them beyond the power of disobedience.
{1SP 23.1}
"The Father and the Son engaged in the mighty, wondrous work they had contemplated, of creating the world. The earth came forth from the hand of the Creator exceedingly beautiful. There were mountains, and hills, and plains; and interspersed among them were rivers and bodies of water."
{1SP 24.1}
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/22/05 06:17 PM
John,
That Satan was expelled from heaven, needs to be understood in the context of his request for reinstatement. He was expelled from his position of authority and covering cherub. He could not be taken back in favour with God. Why? Because he only wanted his position and God's favour back, not because he favoured God. That he had roam of heaven outside of that capacity is evident in the book of Job, even to the point of presenting himself before God. Christ delineated the time when Satan was cast out and had no more access to heaven.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Please note that the war in revelation was fought after the child was born. That the accuser was cast down which accused them before God day and night. They overcame him by the blood of the lamb.
All these place the time at the cross. It also testifies that he was able to accuse before God on an ongoing basis, which also means that the whole heavens were involved. This also includes the angels that fell.
That Satan was expelled from heaven, needs to be understood in the context of his request for reinstatement. He was expelled from his position of authority and covering cherub. He could not be taken back in favour with God. Why? Because he only wanted his position and God's favour back, not because he favoured God. That he had roam of heaven outside of that capacity is evident in the book of Job, even to the point of presenting himself before God. Christ delineated the time when Satan was cast out and had no more access to heaven.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Please note that the war in revelation was fought after the child was born. That the accuser was cast down which accused them before God day and night. They overcame him by the blood of the lamb.
All these place the time at the cross. It also testifies that he was able to accuse before God on an ongoing basis, which also means that the whole heavens were involved. This also includes the angels that fell.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/22/05 08:25 PM
John B., you're right in that Satan was restricted to tempting Adam and Eve at the forbidden tree. After awhile, if they avoided the tree as instructed, Satan would have been punished and destroyed, and the human race would have lived happily ever after.
quote:The answer to your question is an obvious - YES!!! Not only then, but much more so now. It's your turn to answer my question.
Mike's question. "Was sin or sinning possible before the Godhead created free moral agents?"
I would like to ask a counter-question
Did God create free moral agents with the possibility and ability to live without sin or sinning? Was it possible for created free moral agents to live without sinning?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/22/05 11:07 PM
Thank you Mike, I am glad that you agree that there was the ability and possibility to live without sin. If you don't mind going along with me for awhile, I would like to clarify this side of the question first.
Since God did create free moral agents (FMA) with the ability and possibility of living without sin. Was this possibility and ability only in the minds of the FMA or was it also in the mind of God? In other words, was it only in the minds of the FMA that this possibility existed or did God himself in his own mind think that it was possible for the FMA to live without sin?
Since God did create free moral agents (FMA) with the ability and possibility of living without sin. Was this possibility and ability only in the minds of the FMA or was it also in the mind of God? In other words, was it only in the minds of the FMA that this possibility existed or did God himself in his own mind think that it was possible for the FMA to live without sin?
Posted By: John H.
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/22/05 11:32 PM
John, again: Satan was expelled from heaven before the earth was created. Not at the time of Jesus' death on the cross. Inspiration is crystal clear on that point.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/22/05 11:58 PM
John, if that is how you choose to understand it, how do you place the words of the Saviour?
Since at creation Satan's and his angels' access to this planet was limited to and only allowed at the tree of knowledge of good and evil, were they all there since they had nowhere else?
How did Satan present himself before God re Job?
How did Satan stand before God accusing the brethren day and night on an ongoing basis?
What did Christ mean by "NOW"? What was Satan cast out of in John 12:31.
What was Jesus beholding falling from Heaven and when in Luke 10:18?
Do you not believe that the death of Christ overthrew Satan?
Where and what did it overthrow him from?
Since at creation Satan's and his angels' access to this planet was limited to and only allowed at the tree of knowledge of good and evil, were they all there since they had nowhere else?
How did Satan present himself before God re Job?
How did Satan stand before God accusing the brethren day and night on an ongoing basis?
What did Christ mean by "NOW"? What was Satan cast out of in John 12:31.
What was Jesus beholding falling from Heaven and when in Luke 10:18?
Do you not believe that the death of Christ overthrew Satan?
Where and what did it overthrow him from?
Posted By: Cheri Fritz
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/23/05 12:13 AM
I hope you all enjoy this as much as I did when I received it.
-Cheri-
A University professor challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"
A certain student bravely replied, "Yes, He did!"
"God created everything?" the professor asked again, "Yes, sir!" the student replied. The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists. And, according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil." The student became quiet before such an answer.
The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that faith in God is a myth.
Another student raised his hand and said, "Professor, May I ask you a question?" "Of course," replied the professor. The studend stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"
"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists, Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.
The young man replied, "In fact, sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is, in reality, the absence of heat.
Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy. Absolute zero ( -460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat. All matter becomes inert. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."
The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?" The professor responded, "Of course it does!"
The student replied, "Once again you are wrong, sir, Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is, in reality, the absence of light. We can study light, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wave lengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is?
You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."
Finally, the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?" Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said, we see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold - a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down. The young student's name?
- Albert Einstein
-Cheri-
A University professor challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"
A certain student bravely replied, "Yes, He did!"
"God created everything?" the professor asked again, "Yes, sir!" the student replied. The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists. And, according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil." The student became quiet before such an answer.
The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that faith in God is a myth.
Another student raised his hand and said, "Professor, May I ask you a question?" "Of course," replied the professor. The studend stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"
"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists, Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.
The young man replied, "In fact, sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is, in reality, the absence of heat.
Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy. Absolute zero ( -460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat. All matter becomes inert. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."
The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?" The professor responded, "Of course it does!"
The student replied, "Once again you are wrong, sir, Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is, in reality, the absence of light. We can study light, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wave lengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is?
You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."
Finally, the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?" Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said, we see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold - a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down. The young student's name?
- Albert Einstein
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/23/05 10:45 AM
quote:This is a great question!
Was this possibility and ability only in the minds of the FMA or was it also in the mind of God? In other words, was it only in the minds of the FMA that this possibility existed or did God himself in his own mind think that it was possible for the FMA to live without sin?
Regarding the definition of sin, the definition in the KJV is fine, that "sin is transgression of the law." It is not a mistranslation. There are several other translations (I think I have counted at least 8) that have the same translation (or something very similar, like "violation" instead of "transgression"). The Spirit of Prophesy uses this definition many times (19 times, if memory serves, she states that "sin is the transgression of the law" is the only Bible definition for sin)
Now the translation that "sin is lawlessness" is fine too. The Greek word is "anomonia" or something like that, with that "a" part meaning "against" and the rest meaning law. It's similar to the English word "antinomian". Sin is against the law, or that which the law condemns. Since love is the fulfilling of the law, we could say that anything that sin is anything that is anti-love, or against the principles of love. I think the definition that sin is rebellion is also a very good one.
It's a mistake to think that "transgression of the law" refers only to actions, as in breaking a rule. God looks at the inward man. Jesus showed that the law could be broken by a glance, a thought, by impure motives. So "transgression of the law" has a very broad meaning.
Regarding a sin unto death and sin not unto death, I think that's not a difficult thing to understand. Sins unto death are sins which involve light. When we knowingly act against that which we know is truth, that has a profound impact on our souls. When we ignorantly do that which is wrong, the impact is far, far less.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/23/05 10:09 PM
John B., okay, I'll go along with your line of questioning and reasoning. I believe sinless living was, and still is, a reality in both God's mind and man's mind. Not only in theory, but in reality too. What do yo think?
On a different note, while it is true the fallen angels were restricted to tempting our first parents at the forbidden tree, it is also true they were free to wander throughout the planet and heaven (not sure about other planets). So, they weren't crowded under the tree. Since the cross though they no longer have access to heaven.
On a different note, while it is true the fallen angels were restricted to tempting our first parents at the forbidden tree, it is also true they were free to wander throughout the planet and heaven (not sure about other planets). So, they weren't crowded under the tree. Since the cross though they no longer have access to heaven.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/24/05 04:25 PM
Thank you Mike, I agree with all your comments in the last post.
Since to live without sin was and is a definite possibility and reality both in the mind of God and the FMA, were the conditions at creation in favour (predisposed) of a sinless life or in favour of sin, or neutral?
What was the governing/deciding factor of sinlessness or sin, in the mind of the FMA, in the mind of God?
On the side of your question:
Does God know what sin is?
Does God have a free will, that is, Is God a free moral agent?
Since to live without sin was and is a definite possibility and reality both in the mind of God and the FMA, were the conditions at creation in favour (predisposed) of a sinless life or in favour of sin, or neutral?
What was the governing/deciding factor of sinlessness or sin, in the mind of the FMA, in the mind of God?
On the side of your question:
Does God know what sin is?
Does God have a free will, that is, Is God a free moral agent?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/25/05 07:44 AM
Yes, things in Eden were favourable for living a sinless life. Not neutral. The law was, and still is, the thing that determines sin and sinlessness both in God's mind and man's mind, and in reality.
God knows what sin is and, in theory, He can sin, but in reality He will never sin. He is not a free moral agent in the same sense we are. There is no comparison.
What do you think?
God knows what sin is and, in theory, He can sin, but in reality He will never sin. He is not a free moral agent in the same sense we are. There is no comparison.
What do you think?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/24/05 11:30 PM
A passing question, when we say that the fallen angels no longer have access to heaven (since the cross), does that mean that God does not all them to go there, or is there more to it than that?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/25/05 02:37 AM
Hi Mike, so far so good, but now we come to some hitch points of definition.
Mike: The law was, and still is, the thing that determines sin and sinlessness both in God's mind and man's mind, and in reality.
John: We need a definition of "Law" that stands before creation of any FMA in heaven or earth, and is governing in God's own mind.
Mike: God knows what sin is and, in theory, He can sin, but in reality He will never sin
John: Agreed. Why will he never sin? (This is not a light minded question, but very pertinent to us)
Mike: He is not a free moral agent in the same sense we are. There is no comparison.
John: What is he?
Does God have a will? Is it free (sovereign)?
What is the definition of "FMA"?
What is the contrast?
Mike: The law was, and still is, the thing that determines sin and sinlessness both in God's mind and man's mind, and in reality.
John: We need a definition of "Law" that stands before creation of any FMA in heaven or earth, and is governing in God's own mind.
Mike: God knows what sin is and, in theory, He can sin, but in reality He will never sin
John: Agreed. Why will he never sin? (This is not a light minded question, but very pertinent to us)
Mike: He is not a free moral agent in the same sense we are. There is no comparison.
John: What is he?
Does God have a will? Is it free (sovereign)?
What is the definition of "FMA"?
What is the contrast?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/26/05 07:34 AM
As I see it, the definition of the law of God is the same through all eternity. “All unrighteousness is sin.” 1 John 5:17. All unrighteous thoughts, words, or deeds are sin. Yes, God is the standard of righteousness, but this does not preclude Him from abiding by it. He will not do anything against righteousness. Not because He cannot, but because He will not. Why not? Because God will never choose to sin. How do we know? Because He said so.
“Does God have a will? Is it free (sovereign)?” Yes, of course. But He is not FMA in the same sense we are. “What is the definition of FMA?” A created being endowed with the ability to love or hate God, to sin or not sin, to be righteous or unrighteous. “What is the contrast?” God is divine and FMA are not. Personally, I do not believe we can grasp God by comparing Him to FMA. There is just no comparison. The difference between brute beasts and FMA is the best we can do to understand free moral agency.
“Does God have a will? Is it free (sovereign)?” Yes, of course. But He is not FMA in the same sense we are. “What is the definition of FMA?” A created being endowed with the ability to love or hate God, to sin or not sin, to be righteous or unrighteous. “What is the contrast?” God is divine and FMA are not. Personally, I do not believe we can grasp God by comparing Him to FMA. There is just no comparison. The difference between brute beasts and FMA is the best we can do to understand free moral agency.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/26/05 07:58 AM
Tom, yes, all evil angels are confined to this planet. They cannot travel throughout God's far flung universe. They do not have the golden card. They were banished from heaven long ago and have never entered since then.
EW 39
There is perfect order and harmony in the Holy City. All the angels that are commissioned to visit the earth hold a golden card, which they present to the angels at the gates of the city as they pass in and out. {EW 39.2}
DA 761
Because he, after his rebellion, had been banished from heaven, Satan claimed that the human race must be forever shut out from God's favor. {DA 761.4}
GC 500
Thus stubborn and defiant in their disloyalty, seeking vainly to overthrow the government of God, yet blasphemously claiming to be themselves the innocent victims of oppressive power, the archrebel and all his sympathizers were at last banished from heaven. {GC 499.3}
DA 490
Like the apostles, the seventy had received supernatural endowments as a seal of their mission. When their work was completed, they returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through Thy name." Jesus answered, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." {DA 490.1}
The scenes of the past and the future were presented to the mind of Jesus. He beheld Lucifer as he was first cast out from the heavenly places. He looked forward to the scenes of His own agony, when before all the worlds the character of the deceiver should be unveiled. He heard the cry, "It is finished" (John 19:30), announcing that the redemption of the lost race was forever made certain, that heaven was made eternally secure against the accusations, the deceptions, the pretensions, that Satan would instigate. {DA 490.2}
Beyond the cross of Calvary, with its agony and shame, Jesus looked forward to the great final day, when the prince of the power of the air will meet his destruction in the earth so long marred by his rebellion. Jesus beheld the work of evil forever ended, and the peace of God filling heaven and earth. {DA 490.3}
EW 39
There is perfect order and harmony in the Holy City. All the angels that are commissioned to visit the earth hold a golden card, which they present to the angels at the gates of the city as they pass in and out. {EW 39.2}
DA 761
Because he, after his rebellion, had been banished from heaven, Satan claimed that the human race must be forever shut out from God's favor. {DA 761.4}
GC 500
Thus stubborn and defiant in their disloyalty, seeking vainly to overthrow the government of God, yet blasphemously claiming to be themselves the innocent victims of oppressive power, the archrebel and all his sympathizers were at last banished from heaven. {GC 499.3}
DA 490
Like the apostles, the seventy had received supernatural endowments as a seal of their mission. When their work was completed, they returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through Thy name." Jesus answered, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." {DA 490.1}
The scenes of the past and the future were presented to the mind of Jesus. He beheld Lucifer as he was first cast out from the heavenly places. He looked forward to the scenes of His own agony, when before all the worlds the character of the deceiver should be unveiled. He heard the cry, "It is finished" (John 19:30), announcing that the redemption of the lost race was forever made certain, that heaven was made eternally secure against the accusations, the deceptions, the pretensions, that Satan would instigate. {DA 490.2}
Beyond the cross of Calvary, with its agony and shame, Jesus looked forward to the great final day, when the prince of the power of the air will meet his destruction in the earth so long marred by his rebellion. Jesus beheld the work of evil forever ended, and the peace of God filling heaven and earth. {DA 490.3}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/26/05 09:34 AM
(to Mike)
My question was, and is, if the evil's angels being banished from heaven means only that they do not have physical access to it.
Regarding God not being a free moral agaent, I don't understand your thinking.
1) God is free.
2) God is moral.
3) God is a being (or agent).
Therefore God is a free moral agent. Perhaps it's the word "agent" you find offensive. Would "free moral being" be better?
My question was, and is, if the evil's angels being banished from heaven means only that they do not have physical access to it.
Regarding God not being a free moral agaent, I don't understand your thinking.
1) God is free.
2) God is moral.
3) God is a being (or agent).
Therefore God is a free moral agent. Perhaps it's the word "agent" you find offensive. Would "free moral being" be better?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/27/05 07:15 AM
Tom, at first I assumed evil angels were allowed in and out of heaven until the cross, but after rereading the SOP quotes posted above it seems clear that they haven’t had physical access since they were initially banished.
Regarding God and FMAs, I think it is dangerous to build a belief concerning whether or not sin was possible before God created FMAs by comparing God to FMAs. God is divine and FMAs are not. Yes, we were originally created in His image and likeness, but things have changed radically since then. It is difficult to compare ourselves to Adam and Eve before they fell, how much more so to God? "God is a Spirit."
Not even Jesus, while here on earth, compared Himself to God. Yes, in some ways He did, but in other ways He did not. But Jesus was both divine and human, therefore, we cannot even compare ourselves to Him. Yes, in some ways we can, but in other ways we cannot. That’s why it isn’t easy to simply say – God is a FMA. Born again believers (more so than unconverted people), who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, who are partaking of the divine nature, are in many ways like God, but there are far more ways they are unlike Him.
John
4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Somehow these insights and thoughts are tending toward answering the question - Was sin possible before God created FMAs? The answer to this question should help us answer the title of this thread - Was it God's intention that sin exist?
Regarding God and FMAs, I think it is dangerous to build a belief concerning whether or not sin was possible before God created FMAs by comparing God to FMAs. God is divine and FMAs are not. Yes, we were originally created in His image and likeness, but things have changed radically since then. It is difficult to compare ourselves to Adam and Eve before they fell, how much more so to God? "God is a Spirit."
Not even Jesus, while here on earth, compared Himself to God. Yes, in some ways He did, but in other ways He did not. But Jesus was both divine and human, therefore, we cannot even compare ourselves to Him. Yes, in some ways we can, but in other ways we cannot. That’s why it isn’t easy to simply say – God is a FMA. Born again believers (more so than unconverted people), who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, who are partaking of the divine nature, are in many ways like God, but there are far more ways they are unlike Him.
John
4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Somehow these insights and thoughts are tending toward answering the question - Was sin possible before God created FMAs? The answer to this question should help us answer the title of this thread - Was it God's intention that sin exist?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/27/05 08:02 AM
I don't know what John B. is wanting to get at. I hope he is back soon to continue his thought. However, he asked a very simple question, which is if God is a free moral agent. The answer to this question can only be yes. This has nothing to do with comparing ourselves to Him. It would be just like asking if God is just. The answer is yes. The fact that we are (perhaps) also just does not mean we cannot say God is just because that would be comparing ourselves to him. Your logic just doesn't follow. Your scratching where it doesn't itch.
God is a free moral agent. He can do whatever He wants or chooses to do.
Regarding the angels being banished from heaven, the Spirit of Prophesy applies, I think it's Rev. 12:10, now is the accuser of our brethren cast down, to the cross of Christ. How do you understand this?
God is a free moral agent. He can do whatever He wants or chooses to do.
Regarding the angels being banished from heaven, the Spirit of Prophesy applies, I think it's Rev. 12:10, now is the accuser of our brethren cast down, to the cross of Christ. How do you understand this?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/27/05 06:53 PM
Tom, yes, God is free and God is moral. But not in the same sense as created beings. Why? Because God was never a slave or immoral. Before God created FMAs, freedom and morality, sin and righteousness, were non-issues. Why? Because sin, slavery and immorality were not possible before God created FMAs. It had nothing to do with God's freedom or morality.
Regarding Christ, the cross and the casting down of Satan, Sister White wrote this:
DA 761
Could one sin have been found in Christ, had He in one particular yielded to Satan to escape the terrible torture, the enemy of God and man would have triumphed. Christ bowed His head and died, but He held fast His faith and His submission to God. "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10. {DA 761.1}
Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. {DA 761.2}
The sentence, "he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts", makes it clear Satan wasn't inside heaven, but rather he was outside, beyond the gates where the golden card was necessary to pass in and out of heaven. When the evil angels were cast out of heaven, banished to earth, they were never allowed in heaven again. When Jesus died on the cross, Satan was cast down in the sense that all sympathy was severed in heaven. He was exposed, never more to hope for heaven.
EW 39
All the angels that are commissioned to visit the earth hold a golden card, which they present to the angels at the gates of the city as they pass in and out. Heaven is a good place. {EW 39.2}
So, was it God's intention that sin exist? The most obvious answer to this ill-worded question is, NO! But to assume He did not foresee its existence is to assume God does not know the future choices of FMAs. But Sister White plainly wrote, "God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency." AG 23. Not that it might happen, or that is was possible. No. Her statement is too plain to be misconstrued. God knew Satan and Adam would sin, and He made provision for it in advance. Thank you Jesus.
Thus, sin was inevitable. Not necessary, just inevitable. Why? We cannot adequately answer this answer. That's just the way it is. But in Christ we are dead to sin and awake to righteousness. We are once again truly free moral agents, free to serve Christ and Him crucified.
Regarding Christ, the cross and the casting down of Satan, Sister White wrote this:
DA 761
Could one sin have been found in Christ, had He in one particular yielded to Satan to escape the terrible torture, the enemy of God and man would have triumphed. Christ bowed His head and died, but He held fast His faith and His submission to God. "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10. {DA 761.1}
Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. {DA 761.2}
The sentence, "he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts", makes it clear Satan wasn't inside heaven, but rather he was outside, beyond the gates where the golden card was necessary to pass in and out of heaven. When the evil angels were cast out of heaven, banished to earth, they were never allowed in heaven again. When Jesus died on the cross, Satan was cast down in the sense that all sympathy was severed in heaven. He was exposed, never more to hope for heaven.
EW 39
All the angels that are commissioned to visit the earth hold a golden card, which they present to the angels at the gates of the city as they pass in and out. Heaven is a good place. {EW 39.2}
So, was it God's intention that sin exist? The most obvious answer to this ill-worded question is, NO! But to assume He did not foresee its existence is to assume God does not know the future choices of FMAs. But Sister White plainly wrote, "God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency." AG 23. Not that it might happen, or that is was possible. No. Her statement is too plain to be misconstrued. God knew Satan and Adam would sin, and He made provision for it in advance. Thank you Jesus.
Thus, sin was inevitable. Not necessary, just inevitable. Why? We cannot adequately answer this answer. That's just the way it is. But in Christ we are dead to sin and awake to righteousness. We are once again truly free moral agents, free to serve Christ and Him crucified.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/28/05 06:39 AM
Sorry for the time lapse, but thank you for working over some of the points. To deal with the question of this topic we must keep in mind the state before sin. The way God created and what he intended.
Okay, the determining factor in sinlessness or sin is "righteousness".
Let us hold that thought. It is good. But it only expresses itself in interpersonal relations. "Righteousness" stands for "fairness" and that has to do with others. But there is something higher governing the issue of whether one will be righteous, and Mike, you alluded to it by saying "because God said so". (Why doesn't everyone just 'say so', and no more sin)
It is "Faithfulness"; which is the 'personal' governing factor; how one governs himself within himself his (feelings/desires/ambitions/thoughts/etc). In other words, where righteousness meets with personal interests.
So the next question then: Did God purpose that the FMB should govern themselves "faithfully"? I like FMB (free moral being) better than FMA:)
Okay, the determining factor in sinlessness or sin is "righteousness".
Let us hold that thought. It is good. But it only expresses itself in interpersonal relations. "Righteousness" stands for "fairness" and that has to do with others. But there is something higher governing the issue of whether one will be righteous, and Mike, you alluded to it by saying "because God said so". (Why doesn't everyone just 'say so', and no more sin)
It is "Faithfulness"; which is the 'personal' governing factor; how one governs himself within himself his (feelings/desires/ambitions/thoughts/etc). In other words, where righteousness meets with personal interests.
So the next question then: Did God purpose that the FMB should govern themselves "faithfully"? I like FMB (free moral being) better than FMA:)
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/28/05 06:48 AM
Does God have a will? Is it free (sovereign)?
What is the definition of "FMB"?
There appears to be an association between FMB and Sin. That should not be. Please note that there are many FMB's in the Universe that did not sin.
Free = Sovereign
Moral = Judge of right and wrong
So an FMB = Sovereign Judge of right and wrong. Such is God, but Christ also said: Joh 10:34 ... Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
To be created in the image of god means to be an FMB. That is why we use the expression FMB to differentiate from creatures that are not Judges.
Now if we combine these points together, we get:
Sovereign Judge of right and wrong who is faithful in righteousness.
To this purpose and this end is what God created all FMB's to be. Sin was not necessary for this to happen, but it was certainly possible, considering the powers vested.
What is the definition of "FMB"?
There appears to be an association between FMB and Sin. That should not be. Please note that there are many FMB's in the Universe that did not sin.
Free = Sovereign
Moral = Judge of right and wrong
So an FMB = Sovereign Judge of right and wrong. Such is God, but Christ also said: Joh 10:34 ... Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
To be created in the image of god means to be an FMB. That is why we use the expression FMB to differentiate from creatures that are not Judges.
Now if we combine these points together, we get:
Sovereign Judge of right and wrong who is faithful in righteousness.
To this purpose and this end is what God created all FMB's to be. Sin was not necessary for this to happen, but it was certainly possible, considering the powers vested.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/28/05 06:58 AM
A question Mike,
In the light of your idea of "God's foreknowledge"
How does God have a free will?
In the light of your idea of "God's foreknowledge"
How does God have a free will?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/28/05 07:14 AM
In the light of your conclusion, how do you place the words of the savior, Mike?
How did Satan present himself before God re Job?
How did Satan stand before God accusing the brethren day and night on an ongoing basis?
What did Christ mean by "NOW"? What was Satan cast out of in John 12:31.
What was Jesus beholding falling from Heaven and when in Luke 10:18?
When was the NOW of
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night?
When was the power of Christ established?
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
How did Satan present himself before God re Job?
How did Satan stand before God accusing the brethren day and night on an ongoing basis?
What did Christ mean by "NOW"? What was Satan cast out of in John 12:31.
What was Jesus beholding falling from Heaven and when in Luke 10:18?
When was the NOW of
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night?
When was the power of Christ established?
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/28/05 07:24 AM
John B., yes, Adam and Eve were able, in and of themselves, to reproduce the character of God. "It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous." SC 62. This state will be restored when Jesus returns.
Does God's foreknowledge rob Him of His freedom to choose? Not at all. Rather, it accounts for His ability to rule infallibly. When endowed with foresight, who needs hindsight? Certainly not God. That's why we can trust His promises concerning the future.
Regarding God, Satan, the sons of God, and Job - it doesn't say they met in heaven. Concerning Rev 12:10, I agree with Sister White (quoted above in one of the posts).
Does God's foreknowledge rob Him of His freedom to choose? Not at all. Rather, it accounts for His ability to rule infallibly. When endowed with foresight, who needs hindsight? Certainly not God. That's why we can trust His promises concerning the future.
Regarding God, Satan, the sons of God, and Job - it doesn't say they met in heaven. Concerning Rev 12:10, I agree with Sister White (quoted above in one of the posts).
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/28/05 07:47 AM
God Understands Exactly the Working of the Human Mind.--The Lord God is exact and infallible in His comprehension. He understands the working of the human mind, the active principles of the human agents He has formed, just how they will be moved upon by the objects that come before them, and in what manner they will act under every temptation that can try them, and in every circumstance in which they are placed. {2MCP 781.3}
"For the ways of man are before the eyes of the Lord, and He pondereth all his goings" (Proverbs 5:21). "The eyes of the Lord are in every place" (Proverbs 15:3). "He looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven" (Job 28:24). "The Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts" (1 Chronicles 28:9). He knows the things that come into our minds, every one of them. "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do" (Hebrews 4:13).--Lt 18, 1895. {2MCP 782.1}
God Knows All the Mysterious Workings of the Human Mind.--Will men and women consider how God regards the creatures He has made? He formed man's mind. We do not think one noble thought that does not come from Him. He knows all the mysterious workings of the human mind, for did He not make it? God sees that sin has debased and degraded man, but He looks upon him with pity and compassion; for He sees that Satan has him in his power.--MS 56, 1899. (6BC 1105.) {2MCP 782.2}
5 (Col. 3:10). Every Faculty to Reflect the Divine Mind.--It was a wonderful thing for God to create man, to make mind. The glory of God is to be revealed in the creation of man in God's image and in his redemption. One soul is of more value than a world. God created man that every faculty might be the faculty of the divine mind. The Lord Jesus Christ is the author of our being, and He is also the author of our redemption, and everyone who will enter the kingdom of God will develop a character that is the counterpart of the character of God. None can dwell with God in the holy heaven but those who bear His likeness. Those who are to be redeemed are to be overcomers; they are to be elevated, pure, one with Christ (Letter 55, 1895). {6BC 1105.5}
The Power of Intellect.--Intellect ennobled, purified, heaven directed, is the universal power to build up the kingdom of God. Intellect perverted, has exactly the opposite influence; it is a corrupting of the human power given in trust to be multiplied in earnest labor for good. It deceives and destroys. God has given sufficient endowments to make men capable and wise to carry forward, and strongly and graciously to represent, the Lord's wonderful works to all those who love Him and obey His commandments (MS 63, 1900). {6BC 1105.7}
"For the ways of man are before the eyes of the Lord, and He pondereth all his goings" (Proverbs 5:21). "The eyes of the Lord are in every place" (Proverbs 15:3). "He looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven" (Job 28:24). "The Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts" (1 Chronicles 28:9). He knows the things that come into our minds, every one of them. "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do" (Hebrews 4:13).--Lt 18, 1895. {2MCP 782.1}
God Knows All the Mysterious Workings of the Human Mind.--Will men and women consider how God regards the creatures He has made? He formed man's mind. We do not think one noble thought that does not come from Him. He knows all the mysterious workings of the human mind, for did He not make it? God sees that sin has debased and degraded man, but He looks upon him with pity and compassion; for He sees that Satan has him in his power.--MS 56, 1899. (6BC 1105.) {2MCP 782.2}
5 (Col. 3:10). Every Faculty to Reflect the Divine Mind.--It was a wonderful thing for God to create man, to make mind. The glory of God is to be revealed in the creation of man in God's image and in his redemption. One soul is of more value than a world. God created man that every faculty might be the faculty of the divine mind. The Lord Jesus Christ is the author of our being, and He is also the author of our redemption, and everyone who will enter the kingdom of God will develop a character that is the counterpart of the character of God. None can dwell with God in the holy heaven but those who bear His likeness. Those who are to be redeemed are to be overcomers; they are to be elevated, pure, one with Christ (Letter 55, 1895). {6BC 1105.5}
The Power of Intellect.--Intellect ennobled, purified, heaven directed, is the universal power to build up the kingdom of God. Intellect perverted, has exactly the opposite influence; it is a corrupting of the human power given in trust to be multiplied in earnest labor for good. It deceives and destroys. God has given sufficient endowments to make men capable and wise to carry forward, and strongly and graciously to represent, the Lord's wonderful works to all those who love Him and obey His commandments (MS 63, 1900). {6BC 1105.7}
Posted By: Boblee
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/28/05 08:36 AM
Another point which has not been brought out lately is the fact there are two distinct types of law. So when Mike states "The law was, and still is, the thing that determines sin and sinlessness both in God's mind and man's mind, and in reality," it is necessary to also determine which type of law is being specified.
When we think of laws we usually think of rules that are intended to control our conduct, our activities. Which side of the road we drive on, how much taxes we pay, the difference between murder and manslaughter, etc., etc. These laws are determined by some type of authority such as legislators, governors, judges, parents, teachers, coaches, etc. They are arbitrary, sometimes capricious, subject to change, and usually temporary. What is wrong today may be ideal behavior tomorrow or vica versa. Typically these laws carry punishments which are also arbitrary, sometimes capricious, subject to change, and usually temporary.
But that's not the only type of law. There are also natural or scientific laws. Laws like the laws of gravity, momentum, electro-magnetism, and thermodynamics. These laws are not legislated, they are discovered. And they are universal and unchangeable. Unlike legislated laws, there is no punishment involved with these laws since they cannot be broken or disobeyed. One either cooperates with them or suffers the consequences of disregarding them.
At different times, God has given us both kinds of laws. And the word "sin" is used in scripture to represent disregard for both kinds of law. When the slaves were brought out of Egypt, for instance, God helped Moses organize the civil government and provided a rudimentary foundation for many other aspects of their lives. God also established the sanctuary rituals and helped Solomon design the temple. But all these were temporary, legislated laws. For the most part, God seems to have expected humans to govern themselves and provide their own laws. I would submit that disobedience to any of these legislated laws are the "sin that does not lead to death" (I John 5:16,17). But the laws that have wages which bring death (Rom 6:23, I John 5:16) are sins against natural laws, not legislated ones.
RL
When we think of laws we usually think of rules that are intended to control our conduct, our activities. Which side of the road we drive on, how much taxes we pay, the difference between murder and manslaughter, etc., etc. These laws are determined by some type of authority such as legislators, governors, judges, parents, teachers, coaches, etc. They are arbitrary, sometimes capricious, subject to change, and usually temporary. What is wrong today may be ideal behavior tomorrow or vica versa. Typically these laws carry punishments which are also arbitrary, sometimes capricious, subject to change, and usually temporary.
But that's not the only type of law. There are also natural or scientific laws. Laws like the laws of gravity, momentum, electro-magnetism, and thermodynamics. These laws are not legislated, they are discovered. And they are universal and unchangeable. Unlike legislated laws, there is no punishment involved with these laws since they cannot be broken or disobeyed. One either cooperates with them or suffers the consequences of disregarding them.
At different times, God has given us both kinds of laws. And the word "sin" is used in scripture to represent disregard for both kinds of law. When the slaves were brought out of Egypt, for instance, God helped Moses organize the civil government and provided a rudimentary foundation for many other aspects of their lives. God also established the sanctuary rituals and helped Solomon design the temple. But all these were temporary, legislated laws. For the most part, God seems to have expected humans to govern themselves and provide their own laws. I would submit that disobedience to any of these legislated laws are the "sin that does not lead to death" (I John 5:16,17). But the laws that have wages which bring death (Rom 6:23, I John 5:16) are sins against natural laws, not legislated ones.
RL
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/28/05 08:56 AM
Mike, you quoted the passage that answers the question from DA, but didn't answer it! Allow me to pose the question again: How did Christ's death on the cross cause Satan to be cast down? Is this referring to a physical limitation only? (Hint: the answer is in the passage you quoted!)
You called my question, "Was it God's intention that sin exist?" an ill-worded question. Why? I thought it was quite well worded. I could have worded it like this: "Did God plan for sin to exists?" or this "Did God want sin to exist?" or this "Was it God's will that sin exist?" Are any of these worded better?
What the question is asking is if when God started creation it was His desire that sin should come into being. Given your viewpoint, I don't see how you could answer any other way by yes, if you are at all logical.
You called my question, "Was it God's intention that sin exist?" an ill-worded question. Why? I thought it was quite well worded. I could have worded it like this: "Did God plan for sin to exists?" or this "Did God want sin to exist?" or this "Was it God's will that sin exist?" Are any of these worded better?
What the question is asking is if when God started creation it was His desire that sin should come into being. Given your viewpoint, I don't see how you could answer any other way by yes, if you are at all logical.
quote:IMO, the fact that you so often are compelled to write things like this shows the weakness of your point of view. What you wrote shows you to view God as arbitrary. Statements such as "that's just the way it is" are arbitrary. That you have to write such a thing should make loud bells go off saying "Maybe there's something here I'm not getting!"
Thus, sin was inevitable. Not necessary, just inevitable. Why? We cannot adequately answer this answer. That's just the way it is.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/28/05 09:02 AM
quote:That's an interesting thought Boblee! (Is Bob OK?)
I would submit that disobedience to any of these legislated laws are the "sin that does not lead to death" (I John 5:16,17). But the laws that have wages which bring death (Rom 6:23, I John 5:16) are sins against natural laws, not legislated ones.
The way that I have thought of it is that sins which do not involve light are sins which do not lead to death (i.e., sins of ignorance). Sins which involve light lead to death, not for arbitrary reasons, but for reasons along the lines you have been addressing.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/28/05 09:13 AM
quote:The way I've thought of things is that God, being love, created being to love and by whom to be loved. In loving God we find our highest joy, and it pleases God to see our joy. (His desire to be loved is not selfish)
Sovereign Judge of right and wrong who is faithful in righteousness.
To this purpose and this end is what God created all FMB's to be. Sin was not necessary for this to happen, but it was certainly possible, considering the powers vested.
In order to create FMB's, it was necessary that they might choose to reject God's love. Love is by its nature risky.
Unfortunately, one of God's creatures did reject God's love, and that's how rebellion started. God in no way intended that sin should exist, and it was by no means inevitable.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/28/05 06:42 PM
Boblee, I like the way you differentiated between natural and legislated laws. Thank you. But I would add that all holy, just and loving laws are based on God’s eternal law and are, therefore, just as binding – whether of human or divine origin. Note Paul’s counsel to the Romans below. Also, violation of the physical laws is a violation of God’s moral law, and is considered, if one refuses to repent, a sin unto death. Thus, I believe the sin that is not unto death is any sin we commit ignorantly, unwittingly. The punishment for unconfessed, unforsaken sin is not death, but rather the soul anguish one suffers prior to expiring in the lake of fire. Death is the end of punishment, not necessarily the punishment itself.
Romans
13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
4bSG 43 (1T 202.1)
I saw that the Lord yet has something to do with the laws of the land. While Jesus is in the sanctuary, God's restraining spirit is felt by rulers and people. But Satan controls to a great extent the great mass in the world, and were it not for the laws of the land, we should experience great suffering. {4bSG 43.1}
CD 43
The transgression of physical law is the transgression of God's law... And the human being who is careless and reckless of the habits and practices that concern his physical life and health, sins against God. {CD 43.3}
TSB 131
What did God command Moses to do with those who were guilty of adultery? They should be stoned to death. Does the punishment end there? No, they are to die the second death. The stoning system has been done away, but the penalty for transgressing God's law is not done away. If the transgressor does not heartily repent, he will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. {TSB 131.3}
GC 544
But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}
Romans
13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
4bSG 43 (1T 202.1)
I saw that the Lord yet has something to do with the laws of the land. While Jesus is in the sanctuary, God's restraining spirit is felt by rulers and people. But Satan controls to a great extent the great mass in the world, and were it not for the laws of the land, we should experience great suffering. {4bSG 43.1}
CD 43
The transgression of physical law is the transgression of God's law... And the human being who is careless and reckless of the habits and practices that concern his physical life and health, sins against God. {CD 43.3}
TSB 131
What did God command Moses to do with those who were guilty of adultery? They should be stoned to death. Does the punishment end there? No, they are to die the second death. The stoning system has been done away, but the penalty for transgressing God's law is not done away. If the transgressor does not heartily repent, he will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. {TSB 131.3}
GC 544
But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/29/05 07:21 AM
Tom, the reason I didn’t add to Sister White’s insight regarding Rev 12:10 is because she explained it perfectly. Satan was cast down in that he no longer elicits the sympathies of unfallen angels. He wasn’t cast down from heaven again. He was cast out once and forever the first time. He has never been admitted again since.
None of the samples you listed, in my opinion, improve upon the basic weakness of the title of this thread. Why? Because they assume too much. I realize you are uncomfortable with admitting that there are certain things about the great controversy and the plan of salvation that we cannot explain totally and completely but, and I hate to repeat it, that’s just the way it is. A good way to word this question would be – Why did God, knowing that they would sin and rebel, create Satan and Adam?
Just exactly why God chose to create FMAs, when He knew ahead of time which ones would rebel and fall into sin, is one of those unexplainable mysteries. Regarding this particular mystery Sister White wrote, “But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness.” AG 129.
According to this insight, one of the reasons why God chose to create them, in spite of the fact He foresaw their fall and rebellion, was because “the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness.” I realize this answer isn’t as satisfactory as you would like, but it is the only one God has seen fit to provide, at least for the time being. I assume God will give us deeper insights once we get to heaven, but for now we must trust that He is doing everything right, even though we cannot explain everything perfectly. That’s what faith is for.
Your suggestion that sin was by no means inevitable implies God is clueless, haphazard, and shortsighted. It also flies in the face of Sister White’s inspired insights, which have been posted repeatedly on this and other threads. “The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent.” TMK 18. “From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency.” DA 22.
None of the samples you listed, in my opinion, improve upon the basic weakness of the title of this thread. Why? Because they assume too much. I realize you are uncomfortable with admitting that there are certain things about the great controversy and the plan of salvation that we cannot explain totally and completely but, and I hate to repeat it, that’s just the way it is. A good way to word this question would be – Why did God, knowing that they would sin and rebel, create Satan and Adam?
Just exactly why God chose to create FMAs, when He knew ahead of time which ones would rebel and fall into sin, is one of those unexplainable mysteries. Regarding this particular mystery Sister White wrote, “But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness.” AG 129.
According to this insight, one of the reasons why God chose to create them, in spite of the fact He foresaw their fall and rebellion, was because “the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness.” I realize this answer isn’t as satisfactory as you would like, but it is the only one God has seen fit to provide, at least for the time being. I assume God will give us deeper insights once we get to heaven, but for now we must trust that He is doing everything right, even though we cannot explain everything perfectly. That’s what faith is for.
Your suggestion that sin was by no means inevitable implies God is clueless, haphazard, and shortsighted. It also flies in the face of Sister White’s inspired insights, which have been posted repeatedly on this and other threads. “The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent.” TMK 18. “From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency.” DA 22.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/28/05 11:09 PM
Mike: Tom, the reason I didn’t add to Sister White’s insight regarding Rev 12:10 is because she explained it perfectly. Satan was cast down in that he no longer elicits the sympathies of unfallen angels. He wasn’t cast down from heaven again. He was cast out once and forever the first time. He has never been admitted again since.
Tom: The point is that Satan's banishment from heaven was not because of an arbitrary decree based on force, but was a revelation of truth. This is example of the principles God uses to win the Great Controversy. It's not that Satan wanted to go to heaven, but God is stronger, so He does not permit that, but it is that Satan has no voice. No one wants to listen to him. He has been unmasked. Everyone knows who he is, and they want nothing to do with him. That's why Satan is not permited into heaven.
God uses the same principles illustrated in the banishment of Satan to win the Great Controversy. Not by force, but by a revelation of love and truth.
Mike: None of the samples you listed, in my opinion, improve upon the basic weakness of the title of this thread. Why? Because they assume too much.
Tom: I have no idea what you're referencing here.
Mike: I realize you are uncomfortable with admitting that there are certain things about the great controversy and the plan of salvation that we cannot explain totally and completely but, and I hate to repeat it, that’s just the way it is.
Tom: This is really mistating my position. Hopefully not intentionally. I never said anything like what you wrote. You should quote something directly I wrote.
Here's my position. There are things about the Great Controversy, such as why Jesus had to die, why the wicked will die, how the Great Controversy will be won, what the Great Controversy is all about, of which God has communicated to us a tremendous amount of information. IMO we are really not understanding what He would have us to do if we say of these things of which God has revealed a tremendous amount of information that we can't understand these things and that's just the way they are. It is the argument of the enemy that God is arbitrary, and that's the direction these types of remarks tend towards -- a God who demands obedience on the basis of authority under threat of force, rather than a God who appeals to reason and proves His case on the basis of evidence.
I hope this makes my position clear.
Mike: A good way to word this question would be – Why did God, knowing that they would sin and rebel, create Satan and Adam?
Just exactly why God chose to create FMAs, when He knew ahead of time which ones would rebel and fall into sin, is one of those unexplainable mysteries.
Tom: You're mischaracterizing reality here. The mystery is why sin should arise at all. If sin arose because it was inevitable, as you assert, there's no mystery at all. Sin came about because God created beings which were destined to sin. Where's the mystery?
Mike: Regarding this particular mystery Sister White wrote, “But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness.” AG 129.
Tom: One of the principles in studying inspiration to cosider all that was written regarding a particular topic. Regarding the nature of the future, for example, we have the following quotes:
Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.
The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril. He longs to shield his dear one from Satan's power, to hold him back from temptation and conflict. To meet a bitterer conflict and a more fearful risk, God gave His only-begotten Son, that the path of life might be made sure for our little ones. "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth! (DA 49)
Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss. Then we shall cast our crowns at His feet, and raise the song, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Rev. 5:12. (DA 131)
Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. (COL 197)
These statements show the future is not fixed. God reveals to us that He did not have know with certainty that Christ would succeed, nor did Christ know. Both the Father and Son took a risk for our redemption. This thought should thrill our souls as it did Ellen G. White's (note carefully what she wrote after expressing the thought that God/Christ took a risk)
In addition, there is the description of Christ coming before the Father 3 times, struggling to reach the decision to allow Christ to come for our redemption in EW 127, which is unitelligible given your point of view (How could God "struggle" if the future is like a T. V. rerun?)
Mike: According to this insight, one of the reasons why God chose to create them, in spite of the fact He foresaw their fall and rebellion, was because “the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness.” I realize this answer isn’t as satisfactory as you would like, but it is the only one God has seen fit to provide, at least for the time being.
Tom: On what basis to you assert this? Is there some inspired statement where God says, "This is why I chose to create man, and this is the only reason I see fit to provide?" Also your premise is false, as has been shown above.
Mike: I assume God will give us deeper insights once we get to heaven, but for now we must trust that He is doing everything right, even though we cannot explain everything perfectly. That’s what faith is for.
Tom: Faith is for apprehending the truth about God. God would have us follow Him on the basis of evidence.
Tom: Your statement here is not very charitable.
My position is based on inspiration and logic. Here's the statement from inspiration:
That I can provide such a simple explanation for sin's existance proves your position is false.
Mike: It also flies in the face of Sister White’s inspired insights, which have been posted repeatedly on this and other threads. “The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent.” TMK 18. “From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency.” DA 22.
Tom: It's an error to take consider only certain snippets and not consider all that an inspired author has written on a theme. I have shown above that the Spirit of Prophesy did not view the future as fixed. Neither does Scripture.
The following statements, for example, show that God at different times changed His mind, something which would be impossible if your view were correct:
Tom: The point is that Satan's banishment from heaven was not because of an arbitrary decree based on force, but was a revelation of truth. This is example of the principles God uses to win the Great Controversy. It's not that Satan wanted to go to heaven, but God is stronger, so He does not permit that, but it is that Satan has no voice. No one wants to listen to him. He has been unmasked. Everyone knows who he is, and they want nothing to do with him. That's why Satan is not permited into heaven.
God uses the same principles illustrated in the banishment of Satan to win the Great Controversy. Not by force, but by a revelation of love and truth.
Mike: None of the samples you listed, in my opinion, improve upon the basic weakness of the title of this thread. Why? Because they assume too much.
Tom: I have no idea what you're referencing here.
Mike: I realize you are uncomfortable with admitting that there are certain things about the great controversy and the plan of salvation that we cannot explain totally and completely but, and I hate to repeat it, that’s just the way it is.
Tom: This is really mistating my position. Hopefully not intentionally. I never said anything like what you wrote. You should quote something directly I wrote.
Here's my position. There are things about the Great Controversy, such as why Jesus had to die, why the wicked will die, how the Great Controversy will be won, what the Great Controversy is all about, of which God has communicated to us a tremendous amount of information. IMO we are really not understanding what He would have us to do if we say of these things of which God has revealed a tremendous amount of information that we can't understand these things and that's just the way they are. It is the argument of the enemy that God is arbitrary, and that's the direction these types of remarks tend towards -- a God who demands obedience on the basis of authority under threat of force, rather than a God who appeals to reason and proves His case on the basis of evidence.
I hope this makes my position clear.
Mike: A good way to word this question would be – Why did God, knowing that they would sin and rebel, create Satan and Adam?
Just exactly why God chose to create FMAs, when He knew ahead of time which ones would rebel and fall into sin, is one of those unexplainable mysteries.
Tom: You're mischaracterizing reality here. The mystery is why sin should arise at all. If sin arose because it was inevitable, as you assert, there's no mystery at all. Sin came about because God created beings which were destined to sin. Where's the mystery?
Mike: Regarding this particular mystery Sister White wrote, “But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness.” AG 129.
Tom: One of the principles in studying inspiration to cosider all that was written regarding a particular topic. Regarding the nature of the future, for example, we have the following quotes:
Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.
The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril. He longs to shield his dear one from Satan's power, to hold him back from temptation and conflict. To meet a bitterer conflict and a more fearful risk, God gave His only-begotten Son, that the path of life might be made sure for our little ones. "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth! (DA 49)
Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss. Then we shall cast our crowns at His feet, and raise the song, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Rev. 5:12. (DA 131)
Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. (COL 197)
These statements show the future is not fixed. God reveals to us that He did not have know with certainty that Christ would succeed, nor did Christ know. Both the Father and Son took a risk for our redemption. This thought should thrill our souls as it did Ellen G. White's (note carefully what she wrote after expressing the thought that God/Christ took a risk)
In addition, there is the description of Christ coming before the Father 3 times, struggling to reach the decision to allow Christ to come for our redemption in EW 127, which is unitelligible given your point of view (How could God "struggle" if the future is like a T. V. rerun?)
Mike: According to this insight, one of the reasons why God chose to create them, in spite of the fact He foresaw their fall and rebellion, was because “the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness.” I realize this answer isn’t as satisfactory as you would like, but it is the only one God has seen fit to provide, at least for the time being.
Tom: On what basis to you assert this? Is there some inspired statement where God says, "This is why I chose to create man, and this is the only reason I see fit to provide?" Also your premise is false, as has been shown above.
Mike: I assume God will give us deeper insights once we get to heaven, but for now we must trust that He is doing everything right, even though we cannot explain everything perfectly. That’s what faith is for.
Tom: Faith is for apprehending the truth about God. God would have us follow Him on the basis of evidence.
quote:Mike: Your suggestion that sin was by no means inevitable implies God is clueless, haphazard, and shortsighted.
God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes. (GC 541)
Tom: Your statement here is not very charitable.
My position is based on inspiration and logic. Here's the statement from inspiration:
quote:Is sin was inevitable, then it is not impossible to give a reason for its existence. Sin exists because God created beings He knew would sin. Where's the mystery?
It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence.
That I can provide such a simple explanation for sin's existance proves your position is false.
Mike: It also flies in the face of Sister White’s inspired insights, which have been posted repeatedly on this and other threads. “The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent.” TMK 18. “From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency.” DA 22.
Tom: It's an error to take consider only certain snippets and not consider all that an inspired author has written on a theme. I have shown above that the Spirit of Prophesy did not view the future as fixed. Neither does Scripture.
The following statements, for example, show that God at different times changed His mind, something which would be impossible if your view were correct:
quote:Here's another statement showing God planning for the future with contingency plans:
At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it. (Jer. 18:7-10)
So the Lord sent a pestilence on Israel; and seventy thousand persons fell in Israel. And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it; but when he was about to destroy it, the Lord took note and relented concerning the calamity; he said to the destroying angel, "Enough! Stay your hand." The angel of the Lord was then standing by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite. (1 Chron. 21:14, 15)
In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, "Thus says the Lord: Set your house in order, for you shall die; you shall not recover." Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord: "Remember now, O Lord, I implore you, how I have walked before you in faithfulness with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight." Hezekiah wept bitterly. Before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, the word of the Lord came to him: "Turn back, and say to Hezekiah prince of my people, Thus says the Lord, the God of your ancestor David: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; indeed, I will heal you; on the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord. I will add fifteen years to your life. I will deliver you and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; I will defend this city for my own sake and for my servant David's sake." (2 Kings 20:1-6)
Did King Hezekiah of Judah and all Judah actually put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and did not the Lord change his mind about the disaster that he had pronounced against them? But we are about to bring great disaster on ourselves!". (Jer. 26:19)
And the Lord changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people. (Ex. 32:14)
quote:
1 Then Moses answered, "But suppose they do not believe me or listen to me, but say, "The Lord did not appear to you.' " 2 The Lord said to him, "What is that in your hand?" He said, "A staff." 3 And he said, "Throw it on the ground." So he threw the staff on the ground, and it became a snake; and Moses drew back from it. 4 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Reach out your hand, and seize it by the tail"—so he reached out his hand and grasped it, and it became a staff in his hand— 5 "so that they may believe that the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you." 6 Again, the Lord said to him, "Put your hand inside your cloak." He put his hand into his cloak; and when he took it out, his hand was leprous, F8 as white as snow. 7 Then God said, "Put your hand back into your cloak"—so he put his hand back into his cloak, and when he took it out, it was restored like the rest of his body— 8 "If they will not believe you or heed the first sign, they may believe the second sign. 9 If they will not believe even these two signs or heed you, you shall take some water from the Nile and pour it on the dry ground; and the water that you shall take from the Nile will become blood on the dry ground."
Note God said, "They MAY believe the second sign." This statement makes no sense given your view.
In addition to changing His mind, and making contingency plans for the future, and undertaking risk (all of which is impossible if the future is as a T.V. rerun), inspiration also reveals:
* Things happen which God does not expect.
* God regrets how things turn out.
* God gets frustrated.
* God tests to know personal/corporate character.
* Christ's coming can be hastened and delayed.
None of these things makes sense given your view, at all are expressed many times in Scripture.
Finally your view speaks very ill of God's character. Why would God create condemned angels or people? You have no answer for this question, as you have admitted, saying that's just the way it is and we can't understand it.
But God has answered this question, and the explanation is so simple even a child can understand it.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/29/05 03:21 AM
Tom, I am fully agreed with all your posts above.
I fully agree with love being the factor. God is love. But I addressed a different angle here because of Mike's view of God, and his view of FMB creation being somewhat animalistic. If love is considered on a carnal basis and/or legislated basis as Mike proposes, ie "obedience to law" we wind up with something fake.
We are trying to get to the bottom of this by uncovering the nature of the spirit of the perspective that sin was inevitable.
I fully agree with love being the factor. God is love. But I addressed a different angle here because of Mike's view of God, and his view of FMB creation being somewhat animalistic. If love is considered on a carnal basis and/or legislated basis as Mike proposes, ie "obedience to law" we wind up with something fake.
We are trying to get to the bottom of this by uncovering the nature of the spirit of the perspective that sin was inevitable.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/29/05 03:43 AM
Mikesaid:
"Moral" has to do with judging right or wrong. FMB is a Sovereign judge of right and wrong. Mike you have not commented on this.
Satan is a Sovereign judge of right or wrong, or else he could never have come up with his form of righteousness (sin) which brings forth death.
God is Sovereign Judge of right and wrong, and his form of righteousness gives life.
It is necessary to be sovereign in order to be able to Love (not as an animal but as a person). In order to be able to love as a sovereign person there is the necessity of judgment. In the end, it is a judgment (spirit) of hate or love what it is about.
quote:Has God been reduced to having to choose between alternatives, or is he the living creator of the living? Who has presented him with the alternatives? If God knowingly created one who will behave or do such and such, then that person was not sovereign and thus not in God's image. He was created an animal. Animals are created with programmed functions. They are not moral.
Does God's foreknowledge rob Him of His freedom to choose? Not at all. Rather, it accounts for His ability to rule infallibly. When endowed with foresight, who needs hindsight? Certainly not God. That's why we can trust His promises concerning the future.
"Moral" has to do with judging right or wrong. FMB is a Sovereign judge of right and wrong. Mike you have not commented on this.
Satan is a Sovereign judge of right or wrong, or else he could never have come up with his form of righteousness (sin) which brings forth death.
God is Sovereign Judge of right and wrong, and his form of righteousness gives life.
It is necessary to be sovereign in order to be able to Love (not as an animal but as a person). In order to be able to love as a sovereign person there is the necessity of judgment. In the end, it is a judgment (spirit) of hate or love what it is about.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/29/05 05:02 AM
Tom, the Bible says there was “war in heaven” and Satan and his followers were forcibly cast out of heaven. “Neither was their place found any more in heaven.” When Adam and Eve sinned, they were forcibly “driven out” of the Garden, and a sword wielding angel was stationed at the gate to prevent them from ever entering again. Neither angels or man left voluntarily. They didn’t leave because they felt uncomfortable around God. The Bible is clear about what happened and why.
You suggested other titles for this thread, and I suggested one. I feel your suggestions assume too much, namely, that God did not know ahead of time that Satan and Adam would sin. Our different views of God’s foreknowledge is going to prevent us from seeing eye to eye on this subject. I believe God foresaw the existence of sin, but you don’t believe He did. We’re gridlocked.
You seem to believe the Bible and the SOP explains everything there is to know about why Jesus had to die. I disagree. “The plan of redemption is so far-reaching that philosophy cannot explain it. It will ever remain a mystery that the most profound reasoning cannot fathom. The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.” DA 494. Again, we’re gridlocked.
Again, just because God foresaw the existence of sin, the fall of Satan and Adam, and made provisions for it in advance, it does not explain why they choose to sin. It isn’t a mystery to God, but He hasn’t chosen to reveal everything He knows about it. “There are those who, in their inquiries concerning the existence of sin, endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed…” GC 492. Again, we’re gridlocked.
You suggested other titles for this thread, and I suggested one. I feel your suggestions assume too much, namely, that God did not know ahead of time that Satan and Adam would sin. Our different views of God’s foreknowledge is going to prevent us from seeing eye to eye on this subject. I believe God foresaw the existence of sin, but you don’t believe He did. We’re gridlocked.
You seem to believe the Bible and the SOP explains everything there is to know about why Jesus had to die. I disagree. “The plan of redemption is so far-reaching that philosophy cannot explain it. It will ever remain a mystery that the most profound reasoning cannot fathom. The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.” DA 494. Again, we’re gridlocked.
Again, just because God foresaw the existence of sin, the fall of Satan and Adam, and made provisions for it in advance, it does not explain why they choose to sin. It isn’t a mystery to God, but He hasn’t chosen to reveal everything He knows about it. “There are those who, in their inquiries concerning the existence of sin, endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed…” GC 492. Again, we’re gridlocked.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/29/05 05:12 AM
John B., yes, Adam and Eve were able, in and of themselves, to reproduce the character of God. "It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous." SC 62.
So, yes, originally man was, in one sense, sovereign judge of right and wrong. But the law of God was his guide and standard. He embraced the will and way of God as his own and chose to live accordingly. But sin and fallen nature makes all of this impossible. We must be born again and partake of the divine nature in order to obey the law of God. Not like brute beasts, but like Jesus.
So, yes, originally man was, in one sense, sovereign judge of right and wrong. But the law of God was his guide and standard. He embraced the will and way of God as his own and chose to live accordingly. But sin and fallen nature makes all of this impossible. We must be born again and partake of the divine nature in order to obey the law of God. Not like brute beasts, but like Jesus.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/29/05 05:47 AM
Mike, God was not looking for servants to carry out his Law or Command when he created man. Or else - chop.
God was creating those with whom he could fellowship in spirit and who could embody his glory.
God was creating those with whom he could fellowship in spirit and who could embody his glory.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/29/05 05:53 AM
Try it from this angle.
Angels are ministering spirits. Spirits that influence spirit. Satan as an archangel had great influence (authority) over other angels – spirits. When his error was brought out he was dethroned or expelled from his position of influence (authority).
His word was no longer a command. Yet his challenges, accusations, were still an unanswered question. These remained a question in minds of angels. To that degree he and/or his angels had access even to being able to present himself before God.
It was not until the cross that his allegations were answered and the questions settled in the minds of the angelic host. Satan was now cast out, banished out of their spirit mind. And there was great joy in heaven.
Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. (DA 49)
Angels are ministering spirits. Spirits that influence spirit. Satan as an archangel had great influence (authority) over other angels – spirits. When his error was brought out he was dethroned or expelled from his position of influence (authority).
His word was no longer a command. Yet his challenges, accusations, were still an unanswered question. These remained a question in minds of angels. To that degree he and/or his angels had access even to being able to present himself before God.
It was not until the cross that his allegations were answered and the questions settled in the minds of the angelic host. Satan was now cast out, banished out of their spirit mind. And there was great joy in heaven.
Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. (DA 49)
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/29/05 05:58 AM
This topic is not dealing with what the condition of man is after sin.
This topic is dealing with the question of what was God creating and why.
This topic is dealing with the question of what was God creating and why.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/29/05 07:43 AM
Okay. Are we ready now to answer the question - Was sin possible before God created free moral agents?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/30/05 10:56 AM
Mike: Tom, the Bible says there was “war in heaven” and Satan and his followers were forcibly cast out of heaven. “Neither was their place found any more in heaven.”
Tom: Early Writings and The Story of Redemption deal with this in great detail. Satan and his angels were not permitted to return to heaven because of the characters they had formed. Jesus wept for them.
Jude says that the evil angels "left their habitation." Why did they leave? For the same reason Adam and Eve left God after they sinned.
Keep in mind that force is not a principle of God's government:
Tom: That's not what Jude says:
"And the angels which kept not their first estate, F1 but left their own habitation" (Jude 6)
Mike: They didn’t leave because they felt uncomfortable around God. The Bible is clear about what happened and why.
Tom: To sin whereever it is found, God's presence is a consuming fire. Of course they felt uncomfortable around God. There are so many statements to this effect, it is surprising you would contend this point. To name just one, consider the GC 541 statement mentioned in my previous post.
Mike: You suggested other titles for this thread, and I suggested one. I feel your suggestions assume too much, namely, that God did not know ahead of time that Satan and Adam would sin.
Tom: In what way does the question, "Did God intend that sin should exist?" assume that God did not know ahead of time that Satan and Adam would sin? IMO your assertion hear is absurd. Anyone could ask this question, regardless of their views regarding the nature of the future.
Mike: Our different views of God’s foreknowledge is going to prevent us from seeing eye to eye on this subject. I believe God foresaw the existence of sin, but you don’t believe He did. We’re gridlocked.
Tom: The issue, once again, is not God's foreknowledge but the nature of the future. I believe that God knows all things actual and potential. I'm sure you agree with me on this point. Thus we both believe God has perfect foreknowledge and that God is omniscient. I hope you understand this point. Once again, please understand that we do not disagree regarding God's foreknowledge, but regarding the nature of the future.
You believe the future is like a T.V. rerun. I believe the future is not 100% settled, and I provided several statements from the Spirit of Prophesy and many more from Scripture to demonstrate that my view of the future is in harmony with inspiration.
Mike: You seem to believe the Bible and the SOP explains everything there is to know about why Jesus had to die.
Tom: How could you possibly assert such a thing based on what I wrote? Especially after I went to careful pains to explain my position? Aargh! Please quite doing that! If you want to assert something I "seem to believe" please do what I requested, and quote something I actually wrote. You are doing a really poor job of characterizing my positions, which is disappointing given the amount of effort I put into explaining what it was.
Please reread what I wrote on this. I think I was very clear as to my position.
Mike: I disagree. “The plan of redemption is so far-reaching that philosophy cannot explain it. It will ever remain a mystery that the most profound reasoning cannot fathom. The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.” DA 494. Again, we’re gridlocked.
Tom: Again, please re-read what I wrote in my previous post. We may indeed be grid-locked, but let's be grid-locked about something I actually believe.
Mike: Again, just because God foresaw the existence of sin, the fall of Satan and Adam, and made provisions for it in advance, it does not explain why they choose to sin. It isn’t a mystery to God, but He hasn’t chosen to reveal everything He knows about it. “There are those who, in their inquiries concerning the existence of sin, endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed…” GC 492. Again, we’re gridlocked.
Tom: I presented arguments based on several SOP statements and many more texts from Scripture, as well as an itemized list of reasons as to why the future is not fixed according to how the Scriptures presents God's dealings in history. You have responded to these statements with a quote regarding "those who endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed." Given that I quoted many texts of Scriptures, it is clear that I am dealing with things God HAS revealed.
You didn't deal with any of my arguments or any of the texts from Scripture or from the Spirit of Prophesy I cited. I invite you to do so.
Tom: Early Writings and The Story of Redemption deal with this in great detail. Satan and his angels were not permitted to return to heaven because of the characters they had formed. Jesus wept for them.
Jude says that the evil angels "left their habitation." Why did they leave? For the same reason Adam and Eve left God after they sinned.
Keep in mind that force is not a principle of God's government:
quote:Mike: When Adam and Eve sinned, they were forcibly “driven out” of the Garden, and a sword wielding angel was stationed at the gate to prevent them from ever entering again. Neither angels or man left voluntarily.
The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority.(DA 22)
Tom: That's not what Jude says:
"And the angels which kept not their first estate, F1 but left their own habitation" (Jude 6)
Mike: They didn’t leave because they felt uncomfortable around God. The Bible is clear about what happened and why.
Tom: To sin whereever it is found, God's presence is a consuming fire. Of course they felt uncomfortable around God. There are so many statements to this effect, it is surprising you would contend this point. To name just one, consider the GC 541 statement mentioned in my previous post.
Mike: You suggested other titles for this thread, and I suggested one. I feel your suggestions assume too much, namely, that God did not know ahead of time that Satan and Adam would sin.
Tom: In what way does the question, "Did God intend that sin should exist?" assume that God did not know ahead of time that Satan and Adam would sin? IMO your assertion hear is absurd. Anyone could ask this question, regardless of their views regarding the nature of the future.
Mike: Our different views of God’s foreknowledge is going to prevent us from seeing eye to eye on this subject. I believe God foresaw the existence of sin, but you don’t believe He did. We’re gridlocked.
Tom: The issue, once again, is not God's foreknowledge but the nature of the future. I believe that God knows all things actual and potential. I'm sure you agree with me on this point. Thus we both believe God has perfect foreknowledge and that God is omniscient. I hope you understand this point. Once again, please understand that we do not disagree regarding God's foreknowledge, but regarding the nature of the future.
You believe the future is like a T.V. rerun. I believe the future is not 100% settled, and I provided several statements from the Spirit of Prophesy and many more from Scripture to demonstrate that my view of the future is in harmony with inspiration.
Mike: You seem to believe the Bible and the SOP explains everything there is to know about why Jesus had to die.
Tom: How could you possibly assert such a thing based on what I wrote? Especially after I went to careful pains to explain my position? Aargh! Please quite doing that! If you want to assert something I "seem to believe" please do what I requested, and quote something I actually wrote. You are doing a really poor job of characterizing my positions, which is disappointing given the amount of effort I put into explaining what it was.
Please reread what I wrote on this. I think I was very clear as to my position.
Mike: I disagree. “The plan of redemption is so far-reaching that philosophy cannot explain it. It will ever remain a mystery that the most profound reasoning cannot fathom. The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.” DA 494. Again, we’re gridlocked.
Tom: Again, please re-read what I wrote in my previous post. We may indeed be grid-locked, but let's be grid-locked about something I actually believe.
Mike: Again, just because God foresaw the existence of sin, the fall of Satan and Adam, and made provisions for it in advance, it does not explain why they choose to sin. It isn’t a mystery to God, but He hasn’t chosen to reveal everything He knows about it. “There are those who, in their inquiries concerning the existence of sin, endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed…” GC 492. Again, we’re gridlocked.
Tom: I presented arguments based on several SOP statements and many more texts from Scripture, as well as an itemized list of reasons as to why the future is not fixed according to how the Scriptures presents God's dealings in history. You have responded to these statements with a quote regarding "those who endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed." Given that I quoted many texts of Scriptures, it is clear that I am dealing with things God HAS revealed.
You didn't deal with any of my arguments or any of the texts from Scripture or from the Spirit of Prophesy I cited. I invite you to do so.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 01/30/05 06:04 PM
quote:Mike, that question has already been answered, in your own words:
Okay. Are we ready now to answer the question - Was sin possible before God created free moral agents?
quote:and if you check back you will see that I agreed. What you have not commented on is my response to you as to why he will not sin, namely "faithfulness".
God knows what sin is and, in theory, He can sin, but in reality He will never sin.
He will not do anything against righteousness. Not because He cannot, but because He will not. Why not? Because God will never choose to sin.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/01/05 06:16 PM
Tom, whatever else we may disagree on, and everything else that I don't understand, here's the bottom line: Sin was inevitable. Why? Because God foresaw it. No, His foreknowledge does not rob us of our freedom to choose. Knowing our choices, and managing the consequences, does not mean we have no choice. It looks like we better give this topic a rest.
John, thank you for answering my question. I'm glad we agree sin was not possible before God created FMAs, and that it was because of God's faithfulness.
John, thank you for answering my question. I'm glad we agree sin was not possible before God created FMAs, and that it was because of God's faithfulness.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/02/05 07:27 AM
quote:This logic is backwards. Inspiration tells us that God was is no way responsible for sin. If sin was inevitable, then God was responsible for sin. Therefore any presuppositions which lead to this conclusion (assuming the logic is valid) must be false.
Tom, whatever else we may disagree on, and everything else that I don't understand, here's the bottom line: Sin was inevitable. Why? Because God foresaw it. No, His foreknowledge does not rob us of our freedom to choose. Knowing our choices, and managing the consequences, does not mean we have no choice. It looks like we better give this topic a rest.
If you wish to give the topic a rest, you need not respond.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/02/05 03:49 AM
Let us try and see where we are really at with this topic.
The question: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
The answer: No.
Does anybody disagree with this answer?
The question: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
The answer: No.
Does anybody disagree with this answer?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/02/05 08:39 AM
Good thinking Daryl! I second the no answer.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/02/05 05:37 PM
Answer: the question is misleading.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/03/05 01:19 AM
Mike, since sin was not possible before creation because of "faithfulness". Can we now state why sin would be inevitable at creation?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/03/05 01:25 AM
First of all, Tom Ewall was the one who created this topic by asking this question.
Secondly, how is this question misleading that we have been discussing for six pages now?
Secondly, how is this question misleading that we have been discussing for six pages now?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/03/05 06:32 PM
The question is misleading because the obvious answer (i.e., no) implies sin was not inevitable. Just because it wasn't God's desire for sin to exist doesn't mean it wasn't inevitable. The reason it was inevitable is because God foresaw its existence. He created FMAs in spite of the fact He knew in advance they would choose to sin and rebel. He could have chosen NOT to create those particular FMAs without violating free will. Just exactly why God chose to create the ones He knew would sin and rebel is a mystery.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/03/05 08:14 PM
Mike: The question is misleading because the obvious answer (i.e., no) implies sin was not inevitable.
Tom: Why is the answer obviously "no."? The way you are putting things, I would think the answer would be obviously "yes." If sin was inevitable, and God chose to create things the way He did when He could have done otherwise, then how could it *not* have been God's intention that sin exist?
Mike: Just because it wasn't God's desire for sin to exist doesn't mean it wasn't inevitable.
Tom: Sure it does. If it was inevitable, and God could have done things differently but chose not to, then God *chose* to do things that led to sin being inevitable. What you are asserting would logically require that God chose to do something He did not intend, which is logically absurd.
Mike: The reason it was inevitable is because God foresaw its existence. He created FMAs in spite of the fact He knew in advance they would choose to sin and rebel. He could have chosen NOT to create those particular FMAs without violating free will. Just exactly why God chose to create the ones He knew would sin and rebel is a mystery.
Tom: That you presuppositions lead to absurd conclusions show they can't be true. If God chose to create things in a way that made sin inevitable when He could have chosen to create things another way where sin would not have been inevitable makes God responsible for the entrance of sin. There's simply no getting around that. In fact, you admit as much by calling God, "the author of death." and this:
Tom: Why is the answer obviously "no."? The way you are putting things, I would think the answer would be obviously "yes." If sin was inevitable, and God chose to create things the way He did when He could have done otherwise, then how could it *not* have been God's intention that sin exist?
Mike: Just because it wasn't God's desire for sin to exist doesn't mean it wasn't inevitable.
Tom: Sure it does. If it was inevitable, and God could have done things differently but chose not to, then God *chose* to do things that led to sin being inevitable. What you are asserting would logically require that God chose to do something He did not intend, which is logically absurd.
Mike: The reason it was inevitable is because God foresaw its existence. He created FMAs in spite of the fact He knew in advance they would choose to sin and rebel. He could have chosen NOT to create those particular FMAs without violating free will. Just exactly why God chose to create the ones He knew would sin and rebel is a mystery.
Tom: That you presuppositions lead to absurd conclusions show they can't be true. If God chose to create things in a way that made sin inevitable when He could have chosen to create things another way where sin would not have been inevitable makes God responsible for the entrance of sin. There's simply no getting around that. In fact, you admit as much by calling God, "the author of death." and this:
quote:By saying this you are saying that God created sin. Now if God created sin, He is responsible for it and He intended for it to happen.
Giving Satan the credit for creating sin and death robs God of His power and authority and His sovereignty.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/03/05 09:34 PM
Mike Lowe said in his post:
Conversely, sin being inevitable doesn't imply that God intended that sin exist.
Sin happened. God in His foreknowledge knew it would happen and prepared for it. That's where the Plan of Salvation entered into the picture that interestingly enough, if I remember correctly, sent Lucifer onto his path of rebellion, as he wasn't privy to the formation of this plan amongst the Godhead.
quote:I don't see how "Was it God's intention that sin exist?" would imply that sin was not inevitable.
The question is misleading because the obvious answer (i.e., no) implies sin was not inevitable.
Conversely, sin being inevitable doesn't imply that God intended that sin exist.
Sin happened. God in His foreknowledge knew it would happen and prepared for it. That's where the Plan of Salvation entered into the picture that interestingly enough, if I remember correctly, sent Lucifer onto his path of rebellion, as he wasn't privy to the formation of this plan amongst the Godhead.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/03/05 10:01 PM
The idea that sin was inevitable does not fit into revelation for many reasons, but I'll provide just one. Here's is the description of what happened in heaven after man fell:
For example, if God knew sin was going to happen (no maybe, but certainly, and at the exact time that it did, and in the exact way) then what sense does it make for the angel to say it was a "struggle" for God. How could something God knew from eternity was going to happen, and knew from eternity what He was going to do about it, be a "struggle"?
There was risk involved when God created man, and there was risk involved when Christ came to save man. There was no inevitability involved in either case.
quote:Can anyone honestly consider this description and see that sin was something foreknown and inevitable? It just doesn't make any sense to look at it that way.
Sorrow filled heaven as it was realized that man was lost and that the world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and that there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I then saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, "He is in close converse with His Father." The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe. He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that He had been pleading with His Father, and had obtained permission to give His own life as a ransom for the race, to bear their sins, and take the sentence of death upon Himself, thus opening a way whereby they might, through the merits of His blood, find pardon for past transgressions, and by obedience be brought back to the garden from which they were driven. Then they could again have access to the glorious, immortal fruit of the tree of life to which they had now forfeited all right.
Then joy, inexpressible joy, filled heaven, and the heavenly choir sang a song of praise and adoration. They touched their harps and sang a note higher than they had done before, because of the great mercy and condescension of God in yielding up His dearly Beloved to die for a race of rebels. Then praise and adoration was poured forth for the self-denial and sacrifice of Jesus, in consenting to leave the bosom of His Father, and choosing a life of suffering and anguish, and an ignominious death, that He might give life to others.
Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them. Angels were so interested for man's salvation that there could be found among them those who would yield their glory and give their life for perishing man. "But," said my accompanying angel, "that would avail nothing." The transgression was so great that an angel's life would not pay the debt. Nothing but the death and intercession of God's Son would pay the debt and save lost man from hopeless sorrow and misery. (EW 126, 127)
For example, if God knew sin was going to happen (no maybe, but certainly, and at the exact time that it did, and in the exact way) then what sense does it make for the angel to say it was a "struggle" for God. How could something God knew from eternity was going to happen, and knew from eternity what He was going to do about it, be a "struggle"?
There was risk involved when God created man, and there was risk involved when Christ came to save man. There was no inevitability involved in either case.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/05/05 05:26 AM
Thank you Tom,
It is this risk that makes God great; because it is a question of faithfulness in love. This is greater than any knowledge ever could make anyone. The kind of knowledge that Mike has proposed takes away the glory of God and in its place puts a mechanical aspect.
He is faithful in love, and that is glorious.
Shalom
It is this risk that makes God great; because it is a question of faithfulness in love. This is greater than any knowledge ever could make anyone. The kind of knowledge that Mike has proposed takes away the glory of God and in its place puts a mechanical aspect.
He is faithful in love, and that is glorious.
Shalom
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/06/05 07:12 AM
Daryl, you and I agree.
Tom and John, I do not agree with you.
Tom and John, I do not agree with you.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/06/05 09:00 AM
Mike, I don't think Daryl agrees with you. I think there are some things he agrees with and others he does not. For example, I doubt he agree with this:
I do agree with John.
quote:It's somewhat risky to speak for someone else. I
Giving Satan the credit for creating sin and death robs God of His power and authority and His sovereignty.
I do agree with John.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/06/05 08:35 PM
Daryl, the title of this thread was created by Tom who firmly believes sin was not inevitable. He does not believe God foresaw the existence of sin. According to the view he favors, God knew sin was possible, but certainly not inevitable. You and I both agree sin was inevitable because God foresaw the fall of Lucifer and Adam.
Tom, again, just because God foresaw the fall of Lucifer and Adam, it does not mean they had no choice. It wasn't God's desire or intention that sin happen, but neither was it His desire not to create Lucifer or Adam, even though He knew they would sin. We cannot explain why God choose to create them in spite of the fact He foresaw their fall.
Tom, again, just because God foresaw the fall of Lucifer and Adam, it does not mean they had no choice. It wasn't God's desire or intention that sin happen, but neither was it His desire not to create Lucifer or Adam, even though He knew they would sin. We cannot explain why God choose to create them in spite of the fact He foresaw their fall.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/06/05 10:08 PM
Mike: Daryl, the title of this thread was created by Tom who firmly believes sin was not inevitable. He does not believe God foresaw the existence of sin.
Tom: Whoa! I never said God did not foresee the existence of sin. Inspiration is clear that He did.
Mike: According to the view he favors, God knew sin was possible, but certainly not inevitable. You and I both agree sin was inevitable because God foresaw the fall of Lucifer and Adam.
Tom: He foresaw the possibility of it, not the certainty of it. If it were certain, Adam and Lucifer could do nothing about it. That's simple logic. There's nothing a person can do to prevent something which is certain to happen from happening. Not even God can do that.
Mike: Tom, again, just because God foresaw the fall of Lucifer and Adam, it does not mean they had no choice.
Tom: Yes it does, if it was certain that the event which God foresaw must occur.
Mike: It wasn't God's desire or intention that sin happen, but neither was it His desire not to create Lucifer or Adam, even though He knew they would sin. We cannot explain why God choose to create them in spite of the fact He foresaw their fall.
Tom: You cannot explain something that is illogical. That's my point.
You also made no attempt at addressing my argument relating to Early Writings. What Ellen White wrote clearly portrays sin as a present problem at that time, not something that was foreordained or foreknew from all eternity.
Tom: Whoa! I never said God did not foresee the existence of sin. Inspiration is clear that He did.
Mike: According to the view he favors, God knew sin was possible, but certainly not inevitable. You and I both agree sin was inevitable because God foresaw the fall of Lucifer and Adam.
Tom: He foresaw the possibility of it, not the certainty of it. If it were certain, Adam and Lucifer could do nothing about it. That's simple logic. There's nothing a person can do to prevent something which is certain to happen from happening. Not even God can do that.
Mike: Tom, again, just because God foresaw the fall of Lucifer and Adam, it does not mean they had no choice.
Tom: Yes it does, if it was certain that the event which God foresaw must occur.
Mike: It wasn't God's desire or intention that sin happen, but neither was it His desire not to create Lucifer or Adam, even though He knew they would sin. We cannot explain why God choose to create them in spite of the fact He foresaw their fall.
Tom: You cannot explain something that is illogical. That's my point.
You also made no attempt at addressing my argument relating to Early Writings. What Ellen White wrote clearly portrays sin as a present problem at that time, not something that was foreordained or foreknew from all eternity.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/06/05 10:18 PM
God created Lucifier through whom sin eventually was formed by choice of Lucifier, not by God's choice.
God gave all His created intelligent beings the freedom of choice, or freewill.
Lucifer made his choice, and so did 1/3 of the other angels. Adam and Eve also made their own choice.
Don't forget though, that the other 2/3 of the angels also made a choice, a choice not to go the way of Lucifer and the other 1/3 of the angels.
The other worlds also chose not to go the way of Adam and Eve.
God did not intend that sin exist and I agree with that, however, sin does exist, and continues to exist today.
God didn't intend for sin to exist, but in order for sin not to exist, He didn't not create Lucifer.
Sin happened outside the will of God, but God also allowed it to happen, but by allowing it to happen, He didn't plan for it to happen.
By the fact that God wouldn't base His creation on what a created being would do or wouldn't do, sin eventually resulted. God, knowing, that it would happen, planned to meet it in such a way that sin would never happen again. That is why He didn't destroy Lucifer when sin became rooted in him. That is why He didn't destroy those 1/3 of the angels that chose to sin along with Lucifer. That is why God didn't destroy Adam and Eve when they also chose to sin.
With sin entering into God's creation, He had to expose it to all creation for what sin really was. To have destroyed the devil, before he even had a chance to deceive any other angel would have opened up questions in the minds of all the other created beings that would have contained the elements of sin. By destroying the devil, sin would have done its work of contamination in a different way. Sin would have arisen again, and again, and again. By letting sin run its course so that sin could be seen for what it is, God has ensured that sin will never raise its ugly head ever again.
Of course, God's justice, mercy, and grace revealed the sacrificial love of God when the Plan of Salvation was revealed in response to the choice made by Adam and Eve.
Sin was allowed to blossom and flourish so that the Great Controversy and the Plan of Salvation would clearly reveal to all created beings the ugliness of sin and the goodness of the law of God; the ugliness of sin in what the devil did to the innocent Lamb of God, and in the goodness of God in paying the penalty Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.
Was sin intended? No. It was never the plan of God that sin would happen.
Was sin inevitable? If God foresaw it, and I believe He did, then yes. God, then in His foreknowledge, in His wisdom, allowed it happen in such a way so that it will never happen again in a freewill environment.
I did this all off the top of my head, therefore, I hope I stated it as I intended to. What I said I said based on my own feeble knowledge and understanding of what I read and studied over the years in relation to this whole sin thing.
God gave all His created intelligent beings the freedom of choice, or freewill.
Lucifer made his choice, and so did 1/3 of the other angels. Adam and Eve also made their own choice.
Don't forget though, that the other 2/3 of the angels also made a choice, a choice not to go the way of Lucifer and the other 1/3 of the angels.
The other worlds also chose not to go the way of Adam and Eve.
God did not intend that sin exist and I agree with that, however, sin does exist, and continues to exist today.
God didn't intend for sin to exist, but in order for sin not to exist, He didn't not create Lucifer.
Sin happened outside the will of God, but God also allowed it to happen, but by allowing it to happen, He didn't plan for it to happen.
By the fact that God wouldn't base His creation on what a created being would do or wouldn't do, sin eventually resulted. God, knowing, that it would happen, planned to meet it in such a way that sin would never happen again. That is why He didn't destroy Lucifer when sin became rooted in him. That is why He didn't destroy those 1/3 of the angels that chose to sin along with Lucifer. That is why God didn't destroy Adam and Eve when they also chose to sin.
With sin entering into God's creation, He had to expose it to all creation for what sin really was. To have destroyed the devil, before he even had a chance to deceive any other angel would have opened up questions in the minds of all the other created beings that would have contained the elements of sin. By destroying the devil, sin would have done its work of contamination in a different way. Sin would have arisen again, and again, and again. By letting sin run its course so that sin could be seen for what it is, God has ensured that sin will never raise its ugly head ever again.
Of course, God's justice, mercy, and grace revealed the sacrificial love of God when the Plan of Salvation was revealed in response to the choice made by Adam and Eve.
Sin was allowed to blossom and flourish so that the Great Controversy and the Plan of Salvation would clearly reveal to all created beings the ugliness of sin and the goodness of the law of God; the ugliness of sin in what the devil did to the innocent Lamb of God, and in the goodness of God in paying the penalty Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.
Was sin intended? No. It was never the plan of God that sin would happen.
Was sin inevitable? If God foresaw it, and I believe He did, then yes. God, then in His foreknowledge, in His wisdom, allowed it happen in such a way so that it will never happen again in a freewill environment.
I did this all off the top of my head, therefore, I hope I stated it as I intended to. What I said I said based on my own feeble knowledge and understanding of what I read and studied over the years in relation to this whole sin thing.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/07/05 06:13 AM
quote:If we can ascertain the means and the cause why the unfallen beings would have fallen if God had done something; Can we not also ascertain why those that fell did fall because God did or did not do something?
With sin entering into God's creation, He had to expose it to all creation for what sin really was. To have destroyed the devil, before he even had a chance to deceive any other angel would have opened up questions in the minds of all the other created beings that would have contained the elements of sin. By destroying the devil, sin would have done its work of contamination in a different way. Sin would have arisen again, and again, and again. By letting sin run its course so that sin could be seen for what it is, God has ensured that sin will never raise its ugly head ever again.
If God's "forseeing" could prevent those who did not fall, but would have fallen, from falling, why could it also not prevent those which did fall from falling?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/08/05 07:38 AM
Daryl, thank you for making your position clear. I agree with what you posted. Although, I doubt sin would have happened again and again if God fails to meet it perfectly this first go around. I believe He would have been forced to destroy all FMAs, throughout the universe, if Jesus hadn't successfully dealt with sin and death 2000 years ago.
Tom, I believe you are mistaken regarding the foreknowledge of God and the freedom of choice. Since God knows the future we can trust that things will turn out the way He says it will, namely, He will win the GC and sin shall not arise again. Amen!
John, why Lucifer choose to rebel is a mystery God hasn't revealed to us yet, therefore, we cannot know why he choose to rebel. Neither can we know why God choose to created him in spite of the fact He knew he would sin and rebel.
Tom, I believe you are mistaken regarding the foreknowledge of God and the freedom of choice. Since God knows the future we can trust that things will turn out the way He says it will, namely, He will win the GC and sin shall not arise again. Amen!
John, why Lucifer choose to rebel is a mystery God hasn't revealed to us yet, therefore, we cannot know why he choose to rebel. Neither can we know why God choose to created him in spite of the fact He knew he would sin and rebel.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/07/05 11:50 PM
Daryl, I thought your post was very clear. I agree with much of it, but have a big problem with the sin being inevitable part.
For several reasons. First of all, from a philosophical standpoint, why would God do such a thing? This is not at all in harmony with what the Scriptures present about God. That is, why would God create a universe in which sin is inevitable? This just doesn't compute. I would have created a universe with no sin. Wouldn't have you? Why not God? (He's infinitely better than we are, and even we, being evil, wouldn't do such a thing.)
Secondly, the Spirit of Prophesy says that sin is a mystery for which a reason cannot be given and that God is not responsible for it entrance. If God created a universe in which sin is inevitable, then He *is* responsible, and a reason for it can easily be given: God created the universe such that sin is inevitable. Easy!
Thirdly, God has revealed to us through the Spirit of Prophesy that God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss. This only makes sense if the result was uncertain. This means that God cannot have exhaustive definate foreknowledge, which is no way limits of God, but speaks to the fact that the future is not fixed.
Fourthly, the whole description in EW 126, 127 points to the fact that the fall of man created a crisis. It in no way suggests a situation where sin was a foregone conclusion or inevitable. Christ went before the Father 3 times, and only after the third time was the decision final. The angel says it was not without a struggle that God allowed His Son to come. If all these things are known in all their details from eternity, what sense does any of this make?
For several reasons. First of all, from a philosophical standpoint, why would God do such a thing? This is not at all in harmony with what the Scriptures present about God. That is, why would God create a universe in which sin is inevitable? This just doesn't compute. I would have created a universe with no sin. Wouldn't have you? Why not God? (He's infinitely better than we are, and even we, being evil, wouldn't do such a thing.)
Secondly, the Spirit of Prophesy says that sin is a mystery for which a reason cannot be given and that God is not responsible for it entrance. If God created a universe in which sin is inevitable, then He *is* responsible, and a reason for it can easily be given: God created the universe such that sin is inevitable. Easy!
Thirdly, God has revealed to us through the Spirit of Prophesy that God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss. This only makes sense if the result was uncertain. This means that God cannot have exhaustive definate foreknowledge, which is no way limits of God, but speaks to the fact that the future is not fixed.
Fourthly, the whole description in EW 126, 127 points to the fact that the fall of man created a crisis. It in no way suggests a situation where sin was a foregone conclusion or inevitable. Christ went before the Father 3 times, and only after the third time was the decision final. The angel says it was not without a struggle that God allowed His Son to come. If all these things are known in all their details from eternity, what sense does any of this make?
Posted By: John H.
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/09/05 10:55 PM
quote:That's a totally unacceptable conclusion. God knows everything, and everything means everything.
This means that God cannot have exhaustive definate foreknowledge...
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 02/10/05 12:43 AM
Of course God knows everything. That's not in dispute. The question is whether the future is fixed. Inspiration reveals that it is not. A small sampling:
* God regrets how things turn out: Gen. 6:6; 1 Sam. 13:13, 1Sam. 15:35
* God changes His mind: Jer. 1 -10; 1 Chron. 21:14, 15; 2Kings 20:1-6; Jer. 26:19; Ex. 32:14; 1 Sam. 2:30, 31; 2 Chron.12:5-7; Jonah 3:10
* God asks questions about the future: Num. 14:11; Hos. 8:5
* God speaks of the unexpected: Isa. 5:2-5; Jer. 3:6,7,19,20;Jer. 19:5
* God expresses frustration: Ex. 4:10-15; Ezek. 22:30,31
* God tests to determine faithfulness: Gen. 3; Gen. 22:12; 2
Chron. 32:31; Deut. 8:2, 13:1-3; Jud. 2:22; Ex. 16:4 (These texts do not speak of the purpose of the testing being that those tested being that the ones being tested would know their own heart, but to know what they would do)
* God speaks in terms of what may or may not be. Ex. 4:1-9; Ex. 13:17; Jer. 26:3
* Christ's coming may be hastened: 2 Pet. 3:9-12
Regarding the SOP, several times she indicates that Christ came at a terrible risk. Risk means uncertainty of outcome, which means the future is not fixed. Also there is the quote in EW 126, 127 which shows that sin was not inevitable. (unless God and Jesus were play acting -- the angel told EGW it was a "struggle" for God to allow Christ to come. This makes no sense in an EDF world.)
* God regrets how things turn out: Gen. 6:6; 1 Sam. 13:13, 1Sam. 15:35
* God changes His mind: Jer. 1 -10; 1 Chron. 21:14, 15; 2Kings 20:1-6; Jer. 26:19; Ex. 32:14; 1 Sam. 2:30, 31; 2 Chron.12:5-7; Jonah 3:10
* God asks questions about the future: Num. 14:11; Hos. 8:5
* God speaks of the unexpected: Isa. 5:2-5; Jer. 3:6,7,19,20;Jer. 19:5
* God expresses frustration: Ex. 4:10-15; Ezek. 22:30,31
* God tests to determine faithfulness: Gen. 3; Gen. 22:12; 2
Chron. 32:31; Deut. 8:2, 13:1-3; Jud. 2:22; Ex. 16:4 (These texts do not speak of the purpose of the testing being that those tested being that the ones being tested would know their own heart, but to know what they would do)
* God speaks in terms of what may or may not be. Ex. 4:1-9; Ex. 13:17; Jer. 26:3
* Christ's coming may be hastened: 2 Pet. 3:9-12
Regarding the SOP, several times she indicates that Christ came at a terrible risk. Risk means uncertainty of outcome, which means the future is not fixed. Also there is the quote in EW 126, 127 which shows that sin was not inevitable. (unless God and Jesus were play acting -- the angel told EGW it was a "struggle" for God to allow Christ to come. This makes no sense in an EDF world.)
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/02/05 05:58 PM
Tom wrote.
That is, why would God create a universe in which sin is inevitable?
Unquote.
I think, to show his love to his creation, and to prove that he is a loving God, that Christ is a loving God equal with him. By creating intelligent living beings with free will choice, sin is inevitable, for there is a possibility that his creation would choose something against God’s will that resulted in unrighteousness, self-love.
Were the angels created with the knowledge of good and evil? We knew that Adam and Eve were not created with this knowledge. What is then the effect of being created without the knowledge of good and evil? They must find out for themselves what is good and what is right, they must find out for themselves whether God is good or not and this would rise the possibility of choosing the wrong choice which is against God, which is loving themselves more than their love to God, satisfying their own desires that is against God’s character.
If sin is inevitable than God must be responsible for the existence of sin, but that is exactly what happened, I think. Because by planning and preparing the way of salvation he has shown his responsibility not only his unselfish love. Why? Because, we could blame God for being born in sin and must die, we didn’t ask to be born in this condition, while Adam and Eve were created in holiness for everlasting life. An UNFAIR and UNJUST situation is happening in the world ever since Adam and Eve fell in sin. And if God didn’t do anything to fix it and make it right, he has no responsibility for what had happened to his creation.
Car fabricant shown their responsibility by pulling the defect cars from their customers when a defect was found in their design, how more God would act, when a defect was found in his creation. He must do something to fix it and make it right.
This is my view.
In His love
James S.
That is, why would God create a universe in which sin is inevitable?
Unquote.
I think, to show his love to his creation, and to prove that he is a loving God, that Christ is a loving God equal with him. By creating intelligent living beings with free will choice, sin is inevitable, for there is a possibility that his creation would choose something against God’s will that resulted in unrighteousness, self-love.
Were the angels created with the knowledge of good and evil? We knew that Adam and Eve were not created with this knowledge. What is then the effect of being created without the knowledge of good and evil? They must find out for themselves what is good and what is right, they must find out for themselves whether God is good or not and this would rise the possibility of choosing the wrong choice which is against God, which is loving themselves more than their love to God, satisfying their own desires that is against God’s character.
If sin is inevitable than God must be responsible for the existence of sin, but that is exactly what happened, I think. Because by planning and preparing the way of salvation he has shown his responsibility not only his unselfish love. Why? Because, we could blame God for being born in sin and must die, we didn’t ask to be born in this condition, while Adam and Eve were created in holiness for everlasting life. An UNFAIR and UNJUST situation is happening in the world ever since Adam and Eve fell in sin. And if God didn’t do anything to fix it and make it right, he has no responsibility for what had happened to his creation.
Car fabricant shown their responsibility by pulling the defect cars from their customers when a defect was found in their design, how more God would act, when a defect was found in his creation. He must do something to fix it and make it right.
This is my view.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/04/05 04:41 AM
Tom wrote,
Above, you posted,
Yet Inspiration declares again and again that God is "omniscient" and "infinite." There is nothing, indeed there can be nothing, that He does not know. And that includes any possible variant future outcomes based on present choices of action.
If "God cannot have exhaustive definate foreknowledge," as you've previously said, then that makes Him *finite*.
But the God of the Bible is called "the Infinite One" by His latter-days prophet, again and again. A two-minute SOP search will show that. And the prophet David wrote,
That you would think to characterize Him as having any such finite limitations is troubling.
quote:Tom, you can't have it both ways. Either God knows everything, including complete foreknowledge regarding all possible future outcomes, or He does not. One or the other.
Of course God knows everything. That's not in dispute. The question is whether the future is fixed. Inspiration reveals that it is not.
Above, you posted,
quote:By any rational understanding of the English language, that would mean that God has limited knowledge of the future, and/or of all possible future outcomes.
God cannot have exhaustive definate foreknowledge...
Yet Inspiration declares again and again that God is "omniscient" and "infinite." There is nothing, indeed there can be nothing, that He does not know. And that includes any possible variant future outcomes based on present choices of action.
If "God cannot have exhaustive definate foreknowledge," as you've previously said, then that makes Him *finite*.
But the God of the Bible is called "the Infinite One" by His latter-days prophet, again and again. A two-minute SOP search will show that. And the prophet David wrote,
"Great is our Lord, and of great power: His understanding is infinite." Psalm 147:5God never has had, does not presently have, and never will have, any limitations whatsoever on His knowledge of the past, present, or future. An Infinite Being by very definition can't have any such limitations.
That you would think to characterize Him as having any such finite limitations is troubling.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/04/05 07:43 AM
Tom: The question is whether the future is fixed.
John: Either God knows everything, including complete foreknowledge regarding all possible future outcomes, or He does not.
JohnB: There is no conflict in your statements. Both are saying the same thing. To know the possible outcomes does not mean knowing or predetermining which outcome it is going to be. That is what it means whether the future is fixed.
There is a responsibility and authority given to the creation which has bearing on which outcome and when. While the possible outcomes are known, which outcome and when cannot be known in the individuals realm or else it is not in that individuals domain. The question is not whether sin was possible but whether it was was known that it will be.
In that case you may think as James Sapteno proposes. That God purposely created a known flaw, so that he can look good.? In which case there is no flaw at all but all things are working as they were designed to do, including the designed breakdown.
In such case there is no such thing as sin, nor the ability for it, hence no salvation either.
Shalom
John: Either God knows everything, including complete foreknowledge regarding all possible future outcomes, or He does not.
JohnB: There is no conflict in your statements. Both are saying the same thing. To know the possible outcomes does not mean knowing or predetermining which outcome it is going to be. That is what it means whether the future is fixed.
There is a responsibility and authority given to the creation which has bearing on which outcome and when. While the possible outcomes are known, which outcome and when cannot be known in the individuals realm or else it is not in that individuals domain. The question is not whether sin was possible but whether it was was known that it will be.
In that case you may think as James Sapteno proposes. That God purposely created a known flaw, so that he can look good.? In which case there is no flaw at all but all things are working as they were designed to do, including the designed breakdown.
In such case there is no such thing as sin, nor the ability for it, hence no salvation either.
Shalom
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/04/05 09:01 AM
quote:This is exactly the problem I see with the idea that sin was inevitable. If sin was inevitable, then there must be a reason for God to have created it. Any such reason makes God into a monster.
In that case you may think as James Sapteno proposes. That God purposely created a known flaw, so that he can look good.?
This is the opposite of what EGW states in GC. She writes that there was *no* reason for sin, and that God was in no wise responsible for its entrance. If God was not responsible for sin's existence, then He certainly didn't plan for it to happen. Similarly I see know way in which sin can be viewed as inevitable without making God responsible for its coming into being.
Regarding EDF (exhaustive definate foreknowledge), the issue is not God's foreknowledge (which is perfect), but the nature of the future. If the future is not fixed, then God cannot know it as fixed. It's not limiting God in any way, but simply a matter of recognizing reality.
Here's an analogy. Many physcists believe that subatomic particles act in a probabilistic fashion. They postulate that even if God were asked how a subatomic particle would act, He would respond probabilistically. It is not limiting God in any way to suggest that He would respond to a question regarding subatomic particles in a probabilistic manner -- it's simply recognizing the nature of subatomic particles, which He Himself created!
In DA 49, as well as a couple of other places, the Spirit of Prophesy tells us that God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss. Risk implies uncertainty. If God knew without question that Christ would be successful in His mission, it would have been disingenuous of Him to have revealed through His servant that He took a risk.
In another place (Christ Object Lessons, don't remember the page number), we are told that all heaven was imperiled for our redemption. That's quite a thought, isn't it?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/05/05 03:40 AM
Jer 2:21 Yet I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me?
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/05/05 08:16 AM
Tom wrote.
This is exactly the problem I see with the idea that sin was inevitable. If sin was inevitable, then there must be a reason for God to have created it. Any such reason makes God into a monster.
Unquote.
Why did you think, that God by creating intelligent living being with the free will to choose, knowing some of them would chose sin instead of righteousness, is making him a monster?
I think differently, God knew sin would arise and ad prepared the way out even before he began with creation of the 1st thing. But continuing with his plan of creation doesn’t make him a monster, if he did create angels and men without the power of free will choice, he become a monster.
Thus, I think, why did God continue with creating even though he knew sin would arise, making Christ must come as a man in fallen nature to safe men by his painful death on the cross? Because he is going to prove him self and Christ as an unselfish loving God who is willing to take the risk of creating. Maybe this is a test for him self and Christ, maybe because Christ was his first creation, a duplicate of his own, and are going to test him. Who knows!
In His love
James S
This is exactly the problem I see with the idea that sin was inevitable. If sin was inevitable, then there must be a reason for God to have created it. Any such reason makes God into a monster.
Unquote.
Why did you think, that God by creating intelligent living being with the free will to choose, knowing some of them would chose sin instead of righteousness, is making him a monster?
I think differently, God knew sin would arise and ad prepared the way out even before he began with creation of the 1st thing. But continuing with his plan of creation doesn’t make him a monster, if he did create angels and men without the power of free will choice, he become a monster.
Thus, I think, why did God continue with creating even though he knew sin would arise, making Christ must come as a man in fallen nature to safe men by his painful death on the cross? Because he is going to prove him self and Christ as an unselfish loving God who is willing to take the risk of creating. Maybe this is a test for him self and Christ, maybe because Christ was his first creation, a duplicate of his own, and are going to test him. Who knows!
In His love
James S
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/05/05 08:47 AM
James:
Tom wrote.
This is exactly the problem I see with the idea that sin was inevitable. If sin was inevitable, then there must be a reason for God to have created it. Any such reason makes God into a monster.
Unquote.
Why did you think, that God by creating intelligent living being with the free will to choose, knowing some of them would chose sin instead of righteousness, is making him a monster?
Tom: What you wrote isn't what I wrote at all, even if one holds to your presupositions.
James: I think differently, God knew sin would arise and ad prepared the way out even before he began with creation of the 1st thing.
Tom: If God knew sin would arise, why not simply create beings He knew wouldn't sin?
James: But continuing with his plan of creation doesn’t make him a monster, if he did create angels and men without the power of free will choice, he become a monster.
Tom: Freedom of choice in no way implies that sin should occur. EGW tells us that God created "millions of worlds". This means that of the free will creatures who have been created, only something like 0.00001% of all created beings have sinned, and this is even given that sin had already occured. Looking at things from the standpoint of sin not existing, it should be evident that sin is much *not* in the norm for beings with free will.
Just to be clear, what would make God into a "monster" would be His creating a universe in which sin was inevitable for the purpose of making Himself look good.
James: Thus, I think, why did God continue with creating even though he knew sin would arise, making Christ must come as a man in fallen nature to safe men by his painful death on the cross? Because he is going to prove him self and Christ as an unselfish loving God who is willing to take the risk of creating. Maybe this is a test for him self and Christ, maybe because Christ was his first creation, a duplicate of his own, and are going to test him. Who knows!
Tom: With all due respect, this doesn't make any sense. God could have proved Himself and Christ unselfish by simply not creating sin.
If you pounded your child to the point of death, and then sacrificed your bank account to save its life, would that prove you "unselfish"? God is only proven unselfish if sin was not something He planned.
Note the following from the Spirit of Prophesy:
Tom wrote.
This is exactly the problem I see with the idea that sin was inevitable. If sin was inevitable, then there must be a reason for God to have created it. Any such reason makes God into a monster.
Unquote.
Why did you think, that God by creating intelligent living being with the free will to choose, knowing some of them would chose sin instead of righteousness, is making him a monster?
Tom: What you wrote isn't what I wrote at all, even if one holds to your presupositions.
James: I think differently, God knew sin would arise and ad prepared the way out even before he began with creation of the 1st thing.
Tom: If God knew sin would arise, why not simply create beings He knew wouldn't sin?
James: But continuing with his plan of creation doesn’t make him a monster, if he did create angels and men without the power of free will choice, he become a monster.
Tom: Freedom of choice in no way implies that sin should occur. EGW tells us that God created "millions of worlds". This means that of the free will creatures who have been created, only something like 0.00001% of all created beings have sinned, and this is even given that sin had already occured. Looking at things from the standpoint of sin not existing, it should be evident that sin is much *not* in the norm for beings with free will.
Just to be clear, what would make God into a "monster" would be His creating a universe in which sin was inevitable for the purpose of making Himself look good.
James: Thus, I think, why did God continue with creating even though he knew sin would arise, making Christ must come as a man in fallen nature to safe men by his painful death on the cross? Because he is going to prove him self and Christ as an unselfish loving God who is willing to take the risk of creating. Maybe this is a test for him self and Christ, maybe because Christ was his first creation, a duplicate of his own, and are going to test him. Who knows!
Tom: With all due respect, this doesn't make any sense. God could have proved Himself and Christ unselfish by simply not creating sin.
If you pounded your child to the point of death, and then sacrificed your bank account to save its life, would that prove you "unselfish"? God is only proven unselfish if sin was not something He planned.
Note the following from the Spirit of Prophesy:
quote:
It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. (GC 492, 492)
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/05/05 09:24 AM
Tom wrote:
This is the opposite of what EGW states in GC. She writes that there was *no* reason for sin, and that God was in no wise responsible for its entrance. If God was not responsible for sin's existence, then He certainly didn't plan for it to happen. Similarly I see know way in which sin can be viewed as inevitable without making God responsible for its coming into being.
Unquote.
Does EGW knows the reason why did God create angles and then men? Are there any quotes of her teaching that gives us a picture of WHY did God create them?
Anyway I agree with her that there was no reason for sin to emerge in this universe, but it happened because those who sinned were created with a free will choice. It is true that God was not responsible for it entrance, but he is responsible for what he created, those who sinned. And he is willing to take the risk of this responsibility, even it cost Christ life. God was not responsible for sin’s existence, he certainly didn’t plan it to happen, but he knew it will happened. Therefore, it is inevitable without making God responsible for its coming into being.
In His love
James S
This is the opposite of what EGW states in GC. She writes that there was *no* reason for sin, and that God was in no wise responsible for its entrance. If God was not responsible for sin's existence, then He certainly didn't plan for it to happen. Similarly I see know way in which sin can be viewed as inevitable without making God responsible for its coming into being.
Unquote.
Does EGW knows the reason why did God create angles and then men? Are there any quotes of her teaching that gives us a picture of WHY did God create them?
Anyway I agree with her that there was no reason for sin to emerge in this universe, but it happened because those who sinned were created with a free will choice. It is true that God was not responsible for it entrance, but he is responsible for what he created, those who sinned. And he is willing to take the risk of this responsibility, even it cost Christ life. God was not responsible for sin’s existence, he certainly didn’t plan it to happen, but he knew it will happened. Therefore, it is inevitable without making God responsible for its coming into being.
In His love
James S
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/05/05 01:12 PM
Tom: With all due respect, this doesn't make any sense. God could have proved Himself and Christ unselfish by simply not creating sin.
If you pounded your child to the point of death, and then sacrificed your bank account to save its life, would that prove you "unselfish"? God is only proven unselfish if sin was not something He planned.
Unquote.
I didn’t say that God create sin or planned it.
What he did create is evil, and to become evil some one must find out it first then exercising it. That’s why Adam and Eve were created without this knowledge, but if they eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, they would come to know what is good and what is evil, only by this act, sin would emerge. Why did God create the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil and gives A & E a choice? Because they have a free will choice and Satan is roaming around in this world (Eden) with the idea in his mind to tempt them. This situation makes sin inevitable in this world.
Tom: If God knew sin would arise, why not simply create beings He knew wouldn't sin?
Is this a good thing for him? Why would he choose to create being that he knew wouldn’t sin? Is he afraid of taking the risk and responsibility of creating, when sin is inevitable?
Tom: Just to be clear, what would make God into a "monster" would be His creating a universe in which sin was inevitable for the purpose of making Himself look good.
When God created Adam and Eve sin is inevitable in this world because there is Satan.
When God created Lucifer and all of the angles, sin is also inevitable because they were created without the knowledge of good and evil. They must find out of and for themselves, what is good and what is evil. Only by this, they would come to a complete understanding of the unselfish love of God – his agape love. He did create them in perfection, love, holiness, intelligent with freedom of choice, but they didn’t know what is good and what is evil, they didn’t know what love is. They just do by default the deeds of love, because they were created with that. But the way to find out what is love and what is evil is open, to find out what is good and what is evil is open before them, God would not hinder them, it might happen to any one of his creation, unless he created them without the freedom of choice.
So, the 1st created being who exercised his mind to find out what is good and what is evil is Lucifer. The capability to do it is created in him and God allows that to happen, for only through this, they might know exactly what is love, which might say, who is God, their Creator.
Once Lucifer knew what love is and what evil is, he is being driven to evilness by his own desire that want more than what is given to him. He become selfish, choosing to fulfill his own desire. He shared this knowledge to other angels, and some of them follow his step, becoming selfish, but others remain in their choice to worship God alone.
I really believe that sin is inevitable because of those circumstances.
In His love
James S
If you pounded your child to the point of death, and then sacrificed your bank account to save its life, would that prove you "unselfish"? God is only proven unselfish if sin was not something He planned.
Unquote.
I didn’t say that God create sin or planned it.
What he did create is evil, and to become evil some one must find out it first then exercising it. That’s why Adam and Eve were created without this knowledge, but if they eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, they would come to know what is good and what is evil, only by this act, sin would emerge. Why did God create the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil and gives A & E a choice? Because they have a free will choice and Satan is roaming around in this world (Eden) with the idea in his mind to tempt them. This situation makes sin inevitable in this world.
Tom: If God knew sin would arise, why not simply create beings He knew wouldn't sin?
Is this a good thing for him? Why would he choose to create being that he knew wouldn’t sin? Is he afraid of taking the risk and responsibility of creating, when sin is inevitable?
Tom: Just to be clear, what would make God into a "monster" would be His creating a universe in which sin was inevitable for the purpose of making Himself look good.
When God created Adam and Eve sin is inevitable in this world because there is Satan.
When God created Lucifer and all of the angles, sin is also inevitable because they were created without the knowledge of good and evil. They must find out of and for themselves, what is good and what is evil. Only by this, they would come to a complete understanding of the unselfish love of God – his agape love. He did create them in perfection, love, holiness, intelligent with freedom of choice, but they didn’t know what is good and what is evil, they didn’t know what love is. They just do by default the deeds of love, because they were created with that. But the way to find out what is love and what is evil is open, to find out what is good and what is evil is open before them, God would not hinder them, it might happen to any one of his creation, unless he created them without the freedom of choice.
So, the 1st created being who exercised his mind to find out what is good and what is evil is Lucifer. The capability to do it is created in him and God allows that to happen, for only through this, they might know exactly what is love, which might say, who is God, their Creator.
Once Lucifer knew what love is and what evil is, he is being driven to evilness by his own desire that want more than what is given to him. He become selfish, choosing to fulfill his own desire. He shared this knowledge to other angels, and some of them follow his step, becoming selfish, but others remain in their choice to worship God alone.
I really believe that sin is inevitable because of those circumstances.
In His love
James S
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/05/05 05:24 PM
James: Why did you think, that God by creating intelligent living being with the free will to choose, knowing some of them would chose sin instead of righteousness, is making him a monster?
John: If he could know that some of them will sin, then they did not have a choice, and if they did not have a choice then they could not commit sin. For sin to be possible, it has to totally the domain of him who does it. The same goes for righteousness.
The way you are speaking James, is, in someway using possibility, as the odds of probability, as certainty. The fact that there is possibility does in no way mean that it has to be. The fact that one is ready for such an occasion does not mean that the occasion is determined.
John: If he could know that some of them will sin, then they did not have a choice, and if they did not have a choice then they could not commit sin. For sin to be possible, it has to totally the domain of him who does it. The same goes for righteousness.
The way you are speaking James, is, in someway using possibility, as the odds of probability, as certainty. The fact that there is possibility does in no way mean that it has to be. The fact that one is ready for such an occasion does not mean that the occasion is determined.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/05/05 05:28 PM
quote:It is totally unnecessary to sin in order to know what love is. To this Christ attests.
James: So, the 1st created being who exercised his mind to find out what is good and what is evil is Lucifer. The capability to do it is created in him and God allows that to happen, for only through this, they might know exactly what is love, which might say, who is God, their Creator.
Once Lucifer knew what love is and what evil is, he is being driven to evilness by his own desire that want more than what is given to him. He become selfish, choosing to fulfill his own desire. He shared this knowledge to other angels, and some of them follow his step, becoming selfish, but others remain in their choice to worship God alone.
It is also totally unnecessary to sin in order to know what good and evil is. To this heaven attests.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/06/05 06:45 AM
Evil is the absence of good. The concept of “good” was obviously never created (because God IS good), otherwise, God would have been at some point, not good. So, the concept of evil, being the opposite of good (or the absence thereof), must also have never been created as such, but just there. When Satan chose his own way—without God—he was without good (AKA evil). Sin is essentially the practice of evil, or better yet, choosing evil. God did not design that sin should exist, but giving man choice certainly made it possible, albeit not inevitable.
Jeff
Jeff
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/07/05 09:32 AM
James, if God created a universe where sin was inevitable, then He planned for it to happen. Otherwise language doesn't mean anything.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/14/05 03:23 AM
Jeff.
I rather think, that good is God creation, because what he had created is good things, as he is good. Evil is the absence of good, as darkness is the absence of light, so by creating good”, evil is created.
Isaiah 46:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.
This one is very clear.
In His love
James S
I rather think, that good is God creation, because what he had created is good things, as he is good. Evil is the absence of good, as darkness is the absence of light, so by creating good”, evil is created.
Isaiah 46:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.
This one is very clear.
In His love
James S
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/14/05 03:25 AM
Tom.
By creating intelligent living being in his image and likeness with a free will to choose but without the knowledge of good and evil, in fact God is creating a circumstances where sin is inevitable, predictable, expected, unavoidable, whatever you may say as according to the meaning of it word, but one thing I am sure, he didn’t want it to happen, only he knew it would happen.
Is inevitable = planned ??
Why does God create Adam and Eve in a world where Satan roams and ruled? Why does he create Adam and Eve to face Satan’s temptation, knowing they would surely fall to his deception? I think, because he planned it to happen, as a means to execute his judgment in annihilating sin and sinners forever, by executing the death upon sinners. So, the creating of Adam and Eve in this world where Satan ruled, is his way out to expel sin forever from his would be kingdom. They were created as a means to abolish sin forever by executing the death, which is his creation upon sinners (men).
In His love
James S
By creating intelligent living being in his image and likeness with a free will to choose but without the knowledge of good and evil, in fact God is creating a circumstances where sin is inevitable, predictable, expected, unavoidable, whatever you may say as according to the meaning of it word, but one thing I am sure, he didn’t want it to happen, only he knew it would happen.
Is inevitable = planned ??
Why does God create Adam and Eve in a world where Satan roams and ruled? Why does he create Adam and Eve to face Satan’s temptation, knowing they would surely fall to his deception? I think, because he planned it to happen, as a means to execute his judgment in annihilating sin and sinners forever, by executing the death upon sinners. So, the creating of Adam and Eve in this world where Satan ruled, is his way out to expel sin forever from his would be kingdom. They were created as a means to abolish sin forever by executing the death, which is his creation upon sinners (men).
In His love
James S
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/14/05 03:27 AM
John wrote:
It is totally unnecessary to sin in order to know what love is. To this Christ attests.
It is also totally unnecessary to sin in order to know what good and evil is. To this heaven attests.
Unquote.
I agree, but heaven attest when sin is chosen after knowing what is good and what is evil.
In His love
James S
It is totally unnecessary to sin in order to know what love is. To this Christ attests.
It is also totally unnecessary to sin in order to know what good and evil is. To this heaven attests.
Unquote.
I agree, but heaven attest when sin is chosen after knowing what is good and what is evil.
In His love
James S
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/14/05 03:46 AM
James: I agree, but heaven attest when sin is chosen after knowing what is good and what is evil.
John: The heaven I am speaking about never chose sin.
John: The heaven I am speaking about never chose sin.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist? - 03/14/05 06:42 AM
James, you write on the one hand that sin was inevitable and God planned for it to happen, but on the other that He didn't want it to happen. How could God plan for something to inevitably happen and not want it to happen? If He didn't want it to happen, why didn't He just plan for it to inevitably not happen? That's what I would have done. Wouldn't you?
In my opinion, it is very damaging to one's own soul to view God as planning that sin should happen.
In my opinion, it is very damaging to one's own soul to view God as planning that sin should happen.