Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
Posted By: Tom
Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/20/04 01:33 AM
The statement was made on another thread that sin is destroyed by destroying sinners. This shows a misunderstanding of the fundamental issues, which is what this new topic will discuss.
Sin originated in heaven in a sinless being. This shows that it is possible for sin to arise where there are no sinners. Hence removing sinners is not guaranteed to remove sin. In fact, inspiration tells us that taking this approach would have made the problem worse:
quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
Sin could only be eliminated by demonstrating its true character. If God had acted prematurely to allow the full result of sin to be reaped, it would not have been understood that it was sin that was causing destruction. God would have been suspected as the cause, which would have led to God being “served” out of fear rather than love. “Served” is in quotes because it is impossible to serve God out of fear.
quote:
The man who attempts to keep the commandments of God from a sense of obligation merely – because he is required to do so – will never enter into the joy of obedience. He does not obey.(COL 97)
quote:
A sullen submission to the will of the Father will develop the character of a rebel. (ST 7/22/97)
This principle was shown in the Pharisees, who served God out of a sense of legal obligation. Their character was shown in they way they treated Christ.
More recently this attitude has been shown in our own church at the 1888 General Conference session. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that had Christ been present physically those who rejected the message brought by Jones and Waggoner (which was just about everybody) would have treated Him in a similar manner as the Jews did. That is, they would have mocked, scourged, and crucified Him had they had had the opportunity.
When the true character of God is misunderstood, the one deceived develops the character of a rebel. When God sends light, that light is confused with darkness, because of false conceptions of God’s character.
quote:
From the beginning it has been Satan's studied plan to cause men to forget God, that he might secure them to himself. Hence he has sought to misrepresent the character of God, to lead men to cherish a false conception of Him. The Creator has been presented to their minds as clothed with the attributes of the prince of evil himself,--as arbitrary, severe, and unforgiving,--that He might be feared, shunned, and even hated by men. Satan hoped to so confuse the minds of those whom he had deceived that they would put God out of their knowledge. Then he would obliterate the divine image in man and impress his own likeness upon the soul; he would imbue men with his own spirit and make them captives according to his will.” (5T 738)
If Satan can confuse men to view God in a false light, the result is the character of a rebel will be formed in those who believe his lies. Hence God can not eliminate God by eliminating sinners, because those left behind will have a false view of God’s character, and sin will remain ready to spring into action.
quote:
It was God's purpose to place things on an eternal basis of security, and in the councils of heaven it was decided that time must be given for Satan to develop the principles which were the foundation of his system of government. He had claimed that these were superior to God's principles. Time was given for the working of Satan's principles, that they might be seen by the heavenly universe. (DA 759)
But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. (DA 764)
Notice it’s the extermination of sin that brings things to an end.
quote:
In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)
It is not that God destroys sin by destroying sinners, but sinners are destroyed when God destroys sin. This distinction must be understood, otherwise one is liable to view God as the author of sin, suffering and death, rather than Satan, and the “evil seed” of doubt will remain.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/20/04 05:18 PM
Sin originated in heaven in a sinless being. This shows that it is possible for sin to arise where there are no sinners. Hence removing sinners is not guaranteed to remove sin. In fact, inspiration tells us that taking this approach would have made the problem worse:
Sinners would be removed when God thinks the time is okay, where no living beings could judge him as a cruel and savage God that ruled with iron hands. And when this happened “the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law.”
Now, there is a guarantee that sin would no more arise because every one now knew what sin is and what the consequences are.
You have seen it from a different angle.
Quote.
Notice it’s the extermination of sin that brings things to an end.
quote:
In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)
It is not that God destroys sin by destroying sinners, but sinners are destroyed when God destroys sin. This distinction must be understood, otherwise one is liable to view God as the author of sin, suffering and death, rather than Satan, and the “evil seed” of doubt will remain.
Unquote.
I understand this phrase as:
By eliminating sin, sinners are eliminated, destroyed, die the 2nd death.
I have said that God must kill sinners in order to eliminate sin forever from his universe.
Is dying the 2nd death a natural result of sinning? No, it is the wage of sin; it is an act of God to eliminate sin. Dying the 1st death is a natural result on account of Adam’s transgression, but dying the 2nd death is not a natural result of sinning, it is an act of God to eliminate sin.
Therefore, I rather accept the view that by killing sinners in the lake of fire, sin is eliminated, rather than by eliminating sin, sinners are eliminated.
Does this view give a wrong picture of God as Satan’s intention? I think no, because before this God had shown his love by sending Jesus Christ to die on earth in order we might live and through his Spirit we might be changed back in the image ad likeness of God, be freed from the power and dominion of sin.
Those who would not accept Christ and walk after the Spirit would remain in a life in sin, where the wage is the 2nd death, an act of God that destroys sinners in the lake of fire.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/20/04 10:32 PM
This might be a good place to start at the very beginning. The great controversy theme is some of the oldest writings we have. From cities destroyed around the time of Abraham we find a well-developed ancient tradition, and if I recall correctly, we find aspects of it in the earliest writings about 3,000 BC.
The earliest is the story of how all the stars were gods, and one star, the brightest, wanted to over throw El as the most high god, and set him self in the northernness part of the sky and be on the very dome of heaven, but fell down to the horizon. The words of this story was copied and can be found in Isaiah 14: 12-15.
We also have the Canaanite Baal myth, in which Baal was the Son of El, who fought against the 7-headed dragon, a sea monster, who was the chief god of the sea, chaos, and evil. The serpent garbed Baal in the heal, killing him, Anat, Baal's sister and wife, went to El and asked to rise Baal from the dead, and after Baal was dead for 3 days, Anat put together his remains, and said "Baal, son of El, come forth, your father calls you" and Baal rose from the dead, gave the sea monster a deadly would to the head, and good won over evil.
But the gods who surround El's thrown did not know about Baal's raising, and they were still crying, with their heads hanging down in sorrow. As Baal ascended from earth to heaven, upon approaching heaven the words came out: Lift up your heads all ye gods, and be lifted up ye everlasting ones and the king of glory shall come in." The gods thinking Baa is still dead ask in wonder "Who is this king of glory?" to which the answer comes back "Baal strong and mighty, Baal mighty in battle...Baal of hosts, he is the King of Glory"
Before this time people would worship El in a tent, but now that Baal got the victory over evil, the tent was changed for a temple to worship Baal.
By the time writing started in about 3,000 BC the El worship was ancient, and the Baal worship had already become an established and mature religion and ancient religion.
The Bible made many references to these myths, but cleaned up details, such as El, (God) not being the sum total of the forces of nature, but in the Bible El is outside of nature, eternal, and the creator of everything. The sea monster was not a god, but merely a creation of El, and in it's own way a servant of El to fulfill God's purposes. And it was not Baal who was the victor over evil, but the God of Israel. And unlike Baal, Yahweh gains the victory not by killing Leviathan by force, but by merely having a pressence that scares Leviathan to death when Leviathan sees him. (This view of the distruction of the wicked is repeatedly presented in the Psalms)
This thought was such a part of the ancient world, that Bible writers took it for granted that we would know these things. So now we know that there are so many Bible passages referring to this that we had no idea about prior to the archaeological discoveries this past century.
As we look at this from the perspective Mrs. White and Adventism, we find Mrs. White pointing us to these very issues and this philosophy becomes the crowning of Mrs. White's work:
She starts out with a God of love, being completely infinite, outside of time and space, and the creator of time and space and everything.
Now finite minds cannot comprehend this infinite God, so for Mrs. White, God is not only outside of time and space, but also inside of time and space.
This personal finite aspect of God, even before she used more Trinitarian terms, still had 3 simultaneous manifestations. First as the almighty ruler and creator of the universe, second as a personal friend, one of us, to the angels was an angel, to people was a person, (and we can assume from this that to the beings on the other planets, he was one of them) until he one day took on the last form that he will keep through out the rest of eternity, that of the human, Jesus. Both of these manifestations objective, and finally as the personality that guides our subjective thoughts and mind, and experience. All three were needed to help us to understand and have a relationship with this infinite God.
God rules the universe through the law of Self Sacrificing love. This is God's law, no more, no less.
But we can ask, "What does self sacrificing love mean" so it is divided into 2 great principles, to love God supremely, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Well, how do we do this? This gets broken down into 10 commandments. In the most popular version in Exodus 20 we find the first third telling us how to love God supremely (the work of God the Father), the last third telling us how to love our neighbor as our self (The work of the Holy Spirit) and the middle third tying the two ideas together through resting in a relationship and friendship with God (The ministry of Jesus).
Then there are everyday applications to life, and while the law of God is absolute, these applications are not absolute.
God is the only source of life, and if we choose to be separate from this being, we cannot exist. Life is borrowed and and comes only from maintaining a righteousness by faith relationship with God through his law of self sacrificing love. If we do not choose to accept this we cannot exist.
God, being a God of love could not force us to love. We have to be free to love, and if we are free to love, we are also free not to love. Of all the beings that God created the odds of one choosing not to love were great indeed. It turned out to be Lucifer, but if not Lucifer, it probably would have been another.
For who knows how long, probably billions of years the universe was being created, and the beings had a wonderful life. But as Lucifer was up front in worship services and saw people bowing to the thrown, he began asking some questions, and these were excellent questions, questions that needed to be answered. He wondered why God was worshiped, but not him.
But sadly Lucifer did not look for answers. God even sat down and explained it to him. Had Lucifer looked for the answers, he would have come to an understanding of the horror of sin, and that would have deepened his love for God, and he could have become professor of evil at New Jerusalem Union college, helping others see the answer to these questions. But sadly he refused to listen, and instead began to spread 3 lies about God.
The first lie was that God really was not God, but a cruel unjust, unfair, arbitrary tyrant with a natural start, just like the rest of us. God was not the source of life and therefore God has no right to place a law over us.
This lie implied that life had a natural start and one being worked his way to perfection, then the second worked his way to perfection, and when the third reached perfection, they got together and claimed to be the creator God and the source of life, and to keep us from reaching perfection they imposed the law of self sacrificing love and righteousness by faith, where we are too busy trusting God and loving each other, that we do not have time to work our way to perfection, thus God stays God. This first lie is against the being on the thrown, God the Father, in modern Christian terms.
As Lucifer began spreading this lie, the angels and beings on the other planets wanted to find answers to their questions. So Lucifer accused their questioning of God to be a sin, and that God was going to get them for their sin. This second lie says that if the first lie was false, and that God is God, that God still has a problem. God claims to be both just and merciful, and that it is impossible for God to be both, he has to choose one or another, and since he is a tyrant, he will choose justice. Thus if anyone sins they have to die, God cannot forgive them, and in fact God has to kill them by imposing a death sentence upon them. Unless you can afflict your body, or straighten out your own life or some other way of appeasing him to change his mind. This lie attacks God as our personal friend, God the Son.
The third lie is that if God does forgive us, that he is being unjust because he cannot heal us from sin, thus mercy destroys justice, so everyone will be saved, or at least those who say the magic words. The death of Jesus is merely a balancing of the books; God can do no more for us. This attacks God as leading our lives, the Holy Spirit.
As Lucifer was questioning God, God tried to work with him. As Lucifer crossed the line of sin, had he faced the natural consequences, it would have looked like God was a tyrant who did not allow questioning, and was going to kill you if you did not toe the line. Beings would shape up, but out of fear, and fear is not love, thus they would die too, and the universe would have been destroyed. Thus God kept Lucifer and the 1/3 of the angels that joined him, artificially alive to show the development of evil, in contrast to his love.
We see this in the book of Job. We understand what is going on in the book because of the begining and looking at the Satan. But to the ancient world, they understood the consept of the Devil by the Leviathan. In the last few chapters of Job The Lord comes and shows that he has all power, and after making it clear that he has all power, he turns his attention to the Leviathan and points out that you can not use mere force and power in fighting the devil, that you need a different method and that is what God is using, and Job realized that what he was going through was part of the method God was using to defeat sin. The book of Job is the story of St. Jesus and the Dragon.
At first God was still working to try to win back Lucifer. God created a special world to show Lucifer that he was truly the creator, and not just knowledgeable as to when nature would create a new planet, and merely to pretend to create.
We find some key places where Lucifer had some key moments of decisions which could have lead to repentance or an even more hardening of his heart. In one Mrs. White pictures Lucifer as coming back saying that he was wrong, and wanted to come back, but God said that it was too late and cried with him, and Lucifer left threatening to destroy the earth.... Now getting beyond a superficial reading, let's think some here. We find sometimes God did say something to see what the person would do... He would tell Moses that he would make a greater nation out of the Moshites, he told the Canaanites woman that the children's food should not be cast to the dogs. These statements were to bring about an action from the person to respond to God's mercy, and to show that they depended on his mercy.
Getting back to this story in Mrs. White's writings, we basically see God agreeing with Satan, that justice had destroyed mercy, and that Satan cannot come back. Satan should have said "No Lord, that is not true, you know that is only the lie that I was spreading and I was wrong about that, and I know that you can redeem me" in which case God would have thrown his arms around Satan and reinstated him as Lucifer. But Satan refused to say that he was wrong. In stead he basically got up saying "I knew I was right all along" and gave himself more fully to the rebellion.
Another key moment is, when Satan was experimenting with Sin, God could let Satan play some with it, and hurt himself and want to leave it alone. But when he deceived Adam and Eve, he was involving innocent children, and this act would make Satan a hardened criminal.
As for humans, in the Garden of Eden, Eve fell to Satan's first lie, where Satan was saying that if she ate the fruit that she too could be God, and Adam fell to the second lie. Adam forgot that God loved Eve even more than he did, and that Jesus would have come and die just for her. That God was working out the issues of the Satan's lies for the universe to understand, and that in that working out, Eve would have been included.
Ellen White pictures the Bible and history being how God deals with these 3 lies. Old Testament focusing on the first two, which were fully answered by the death of Christ. And while Christ's death also answered the 3rd lie too, Satan twisted the third lie to make Christ's death look like it supported the third lie. This the issues continue for humans, but the other angels and unfallen worlds at the death of Jesus clearly understand it, and fully sided with God, Christ's death saved them too.
Some critics of Mrs. White point to a story where she says that she saw Jesus going to God 3 times asking to die for us before God gave the OK. Well, again let's go for more than a superficial reading. First of all, the Bible has much of the ancient poetry of parallel events, and the poetic structure we now know would expect the 3 times that Jesus asked for the cup to pass from him, to be the parallel to 3 askings to drink it, yet it is a missing line. But let's forget this, and say that this parallel line is not need. Jesus being the personal aspect of God would be the spokesperson for all three members of the trinity, and would speak once for each of them to show that the entire trinity wanted the plan of salvation. Second it would have to be asked 3 times as it is asking to save us from each of Satan's 3 lies individually.
Many of the 3's in the Bible deal with the issues of the 3 aspects of God: Creator who we awe, Friend who we feel comfortable with, Guide who impresses our minds, and Satan's 3 lies about them. The 3 temptations of Christ are here, the 3 beasts of Revelation, and the 3 angel's messages, and as mentioned earlier, the 3 parts of the 10 commandments as presented in Exodus 20.
We find in Revelation 12 - 13, the dragon from the sea, spiritualism, which Mrs. White sees as the idea of "There is no right or wrong except for what we thing is right or wrong," " live as you please, for heaven is your home" "Do your own thing" Freedom at the expense of order. We are the gods of our own life. But we end up following our feelings, and our will power is destroyed.
The beast is any organized group in place of God, the opposite extreme of the dragon, it is law by force. Don't think, just obey. (that is why it can be applied to the Papacy of the dark ages) Again the will is destroyed by letting others think for us.
The third beast is we as individuals surrendering up will power to one of the other two options that Satan gives us (Thus it can be applied to a nation that encourages the individual, or a religious movement that starts out encouraging the individual to follow the dictates of conscious and to follow the Bible to the best of there understanding, but who ends up supporting the other 2 beasts)
The investigative atonement is just letting the universe see if Christ's death is able to change our lives, and with the explosion of Bible knowledge, and the Bible becoming alive, does it change us? Yes, there is a "Last Generation" but a false tradition had developed in Adventism that has been unjustly been pushed on Mrs. White. That the last generation perfection she predicted is qualitatively different from before. No, it is not qualitatively, but quantitatively. In history you find a couple of people, such as John Wesley, who gave their whole lives to Christ. Maybe people know more about the following suggestions than I do: Mother Teresa is a possibility, as well as Anwar Saddat, People whose lives wanted to learn about and share the Love of God to the world no matter what they faced for their faith. Mrs. White's perfection is that one day in the future, there will be more Enochs, Pauls and John Wesley's than ever before in history. People who want to stand for the right because it is right.
It is through knowledge of what Lucifer's three questions are and their full understanding and a full answer. Too often we want solutions that still hold open implications to Satan's deceptions, which leaves the door opening for sin to arise again. But all that God does right up to how the sinners are finally distroyed will give clear and full understanding answers to the three deceptions of Satan, the nature of God, the nature of our relationship to God and the purpose and perpetatuity of God's law. Views of the distruction of the wicked that support one or more of Satan's lies, or which simply is a repeat of Baals methods of the distruction of sin (especially since we have the Biblical texts that contrasts Baal's methods to Yahweh's) are unacceptable.
For further study please read Patararchs and Prophets: "The Orgin of Evil"; Great Controversy "Why was Sin Permitted"; Desire of Ages: "It is Finished"; some of the earlier writings that developed into these chapters, and numerous articles that Mrs. White wrote while developing those chapters, and also Sanctuary and the Atonement by the Biblical Research Committee, 1981, the last four chapters (the theological studies section)
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/21/04 03:11 AM
Pretty robust stuff, Kevin, thanks.
I concur with alot of it (the third to the last paragraph not included) and I see that you have focused on God's princples of operation quite well, to my eyes.
It disquiets me how so many thinking Adventists could promote the human concept that God uses the fruitless notion that killing stops killers, lying stops liars, or arguing stops arguers,lawsuits stop law-breakers.
It's as though more of the evil methods will cancel out the least powerful or skilled using the same cruel methods.
The cowboy in the white hat is good; the cowboy in the black hat is bad, even though both use the same weapons of force.
It is the theory of the Cross plus the sword of steel.
"Christian nationhood demands force." it is cried, when the Word says that we are not the ambassadors of any earthly nation, therefore our weapons are NOT carnal.
Neither are Jesus' weapons carnal.
It's an old cycle among the churched.
See failed experiments of Puritan New England, the "christianizing" of the Old West, of Asia, of Africa by using the Bible plus western concepts of society.
Posted By: Doug Meister
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/21/04 07:28 AM
Kevin, you sure have a vivid imagination. Where did you get that from?
--Ðøug 
2004.12.20.20.27.01 PT 
=====
Post was edited back in again. - Daryl
[ February 19, 2005, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/21/04 08:21 AM
John, sin cannot abide with God. God does not need to do anything to exterminate it. He stops extending the artificial life which He has been extending, and lets sinners reap the results of their sin. Please note:
quote:
To sin, wherever found, 'our God is a consuming fire.' Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. DA 107
Do you see what's happening here, John? God is a consuming fire. He consumes sin. Sin is destroyed in His presence. Therefore God must do something to allow sinners to exist. When He quits doing that thing, which is His strange act, they are destroyed. Doesn't that make sense?
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.
Note this is saying that if God had allowed Satan and his host to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished. It doesn't make any sense to read this as, "If God had killed Satan, it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin." Of cource it wouldn't have been apparent, because it wouldn't have been true.
The whole reason for the delay is so it can be seen that it is SIN that leads to death and NOT God that is killing them. If Satan is destroyed by God killing Him, there is nothing to misunderstand. There's only room for misunderstanding if the event of Satan's destruction can be taken in two ways.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/21/04 08:59 AM
quote:
It is not that God destroys sin by destroying sinners, but sinners are destroyed when God destroys sin.
Which is more, six or half a dozen? According to this equation, God destroys sinners. In other words, sinners do not destroy themselves, and neither does sin destroy sinners.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/21/04 09:14 AM
It's not 6 of one half dozen the other. God is a consuming fire. Wherever sin is found, God consumes it. God artificially gives an existence to sinners that the principles of Satan's government might be seen, so that when He allows sin to suffer it natural result, being destroyed by God's glory, that event will not be seen as God killing the sinner, which would be arbitrary.
God is not arbitrary. Sin really is bad. This truth was seen clearly last century by George. E. Fifield, a contompary Adventist of Ellen G. White. I'll see if I can quote some of his writings tomorrow.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/21/04 09:21 AM
Tom, if the glory of God kills sinners, then God kills sinners. I don't have a problem with God killing sinners. According to your theory, it is the glory of God that kills sinners. There's nothing arbitrary about God killing sinners.
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/21/04 05:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Doug Meister:
Kevin, you sure have a vivid imagination. Where did you get that from?
--Ðøug 2004.12.20.20.27.01 PT
Hi Doug!
Unfortunetely I don't have much of an imagination, so I have to depend on sources. if he wanted to, Walter Rea could really make my posts colorful. Sadly so much of my reading has been in the past where I do not have the exact resources handy and can only give you general places to look, but if you look at the bottom of the post you can see a list of my resources/references for this particular post. OOPS, I forgot to include the books "The Story of Redemption" and "Confrontation" please add them to the list of resources for my "vivid imagination".
[ December 21, 2004, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Kevin H ]
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/21/04 05:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Tom, if the glory of God kills sinners, then God kills sinners. I don't have a problem with God killing sinners. According to your theory, it is the glory of God that kills sinners. There's nothing arbitrary about God killing sinners.
Exactly Mike, you are right on. This point is what we agree upon. Where you and I appear to disagree is that I believe that it is the SAME act which God does that is heaven and eternal life to the saved which is hell and eternal death to the sinners, but you have been arguing for two sepperat activities by God, something nice to the saved and a litteral lake of the type of fire that we have when we light a match for the lost.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/21/04 08:05 PM
quote:
Where you and I appear to disagree is that I believe that it is the SAME act which God does that is heaven and eternal life to the saved which is hell and eternal death to the sinners, but you have been arguing for two sepperat activities by God
This is a good point. Another, which is related, is that God is not arbitrary.
It would be arbitrary if God took some special action to destroy sin, but God does nothing special. He is just Himself, a consuming fire which destroys sin. God does something special to NOT destroy sin. That's an important point to understand.
Here's something from Fifield:
quote:
Any pardon and any forgiveness that would not take away the effect of sin, but that would lead us more and more into sin, and into the misery that comes from sin, would be worth nothing. If the law of God was an arbitrary thing, that did not have any penalty attached to it, the Lord could say, I will pardon you. But when you transgress the law, it is death; and when you keep the law, it is life and joy and peace....
If God had not been wise, He might have pardoned our sins in an imprudent way. Now, brethren, every father in this world knows what it is to want to let his children do things which they would enjoy doing, and he has to restrain that which would bring present pleasure, restrain that love, because of the evil effects it would have.
Was sin ever less repentant than at the foot of the cross? There you have the thing. There was God revealing Himself in Christ on the cross, and there was sin unrepentant, hatred and mocking at the foot of the cross. How did God feel toward those unrepentant sinners? -- "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." That is how Christ felt, and that is how God felt. He did not have any grudge against them. He would like to forgive everybody. But why could He not do it? -- It would annul His law, if it was an arbitrary law; but if it were not, it would lead men to go into sin, and sin and death would result. It would be God simply taking the place of the imprudent father and spoiling his child. And therefore, because He could not do that, He set forth Christ to be, not the propitiation of God's wrath, but the propitiation of our sin, that God might be just, and still the justifier of them who believe in Jesus; because He would take the sins away from them if they believed in Him, and then He could set them free, and be just in doing it, for He would not lead anybody else into sin in doing it.
O, I am so glad that we have a God whose very nature and disposition is to pardon sin; that we have a Father who is not holding any grudge against us, but instead of that is giving His own life, in His Son, that He my so manifest His love as to bring us back to Him, and so give us the life power as to live His life. It was needed that His life should be revealed, and His divine life imparted, that we might live that life on earth; and that is what He did in Christ. O, I am so glad we have such a God as that, who gives His own life to win us back to Him! The love of God is the one changing thing in a universe of change.
I hope the part about the law not being arbitrary was clear.
It is very important that we understand that God is not arbitrary, and that we be able to explain why.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/21/04 08:54 PM
What God does that is different is He resurrects the righteous at the beginning of the millennium and the unrighteousness at the end of it. God doesn't have to do anything special to protect the righteous while the unrighteous are punishing and perishing in the lake of fire. So, it's not the same “strange act” that saves saints and kills sinners.
According to this theory, it is the glory of God that kills sinners, not sin itself. Sin doesn’t kill, it is God’s glory that kills sinners in the lake of fire. This idea contains less error than what has been postulated elsewhere on MSDAOL (i.e., sin kills sinners). Nevertheless, it still ignores the obvious meaning and interpretation of the lake of fire as described in the Bible and the SOP.
The idea that it is arbitrary for God to punish and destroy sinners in a literal lake of fire is absurd and unbiblical. The unshielded glory of God killing sinners is no less “arbitrary” than God raining down fire upon them. The decision to remove the protective shield that prevents sinners from consuming with their sins is no different than casting them into a lake of fire.
No one, that I know of, questions the idea that the glory of God is a consuming fire. No, that’s not the question here. But no one, using sound biblical hermeneutics, can take the following and use it to prove that the lake of fire symbolically describes the glory of God, rather than literal fire and flames:
EW 294
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}
Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. {EW 295.1}
Does God eliminate the existence of sin by eliminating sinners in the lake of fire? The answer is so obvious it hardly deserves mentioning; but here it is - Yes, of course. We can try and explain away the obvious meaning of EW 294-296, we can try and convince ourselves that Sister White matured in her thinking, but the fact remains, she penned the same thing as late as 1911 in the GC.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/21/04 09:48 PM
quote:
"The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon."
This seems to me to be obviously symbolic. I don't know how it could be more obvious.
It is the justaposition of sin and God that destroys. One can look at it as sin killing, which is accurate and Biblical. Sin pays its wages -- death (GNB). The sting of death is sin. The soul that sins shall die.
OTOH it can also be looked at as God destroying. This is also accurate and Biblical, as long as it is understood that this is not an arbitrary act of God. "Arbitrary" means an act of individual discretion, as opposed to a law. There is a law involved, a law of cause and effect. Sin brings forth death. Not because God will kill you if you sin -- that would be arbitrary -- but because sin separates the sinner from God who is the source of life:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. (DA 764)
Note the principles involved:
1) The destruction of the wicked is not an arbitrary act of power on the part of God. That is, it not an act of individual discration, as opposed to law.
2) The wicked reap that which they have sown. That's the law.
3) They separate themselves from God, which causes their death.
4) God "gives them existence" for a time. If God did not do this, that is, if they were left to suffer immediately the consequences of their sin, they would die.
5) It would not have been apparent that the death of Satan and his sympathizers was the "inevitable result of sin."
The full force of this point has not been understood. What is the "inevitable result of sin."? Is it that God will kill you? If that were the case, it would make not sense to write that it would not have been apparent that death was the inevitable result of sin. If the only reason you die when you sin is because God kills you, then it's not inevitable at all. It's arbitrary. It only happens because God makes it happen.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/21/04 10:08 PM
Yes, yes, yes. You seem to think I don't believe the glory of God is a consuming fire, that His glory would have killed Lucifer, that the holy angels would not have understood it. Yes, yes, yes. I understand all that, and I agree with it. That's not what I'm disputing. And yet you keep bringing it up.
The point is, God will also use literal fire and brimstone to not only kill sinners, but also to punish them for refusing to abide in Jesus, for despising His death. Yes, the expression "worm of life" is symbolical, but that doesn't mean everything else is symbolic. We both agree that God will kill sinners, we simply disagree as to how and why. Perhaps we should leave it at that.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/21/04 10:52 PM
If the glory of God destroys sinners, why would something extra be necessary to destroy them?
Did you agree with the Fifeld statements?
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/22/04 01:36 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
According to this theory, it is the glory of God that kills sinners, not sin itself. Sin doesn’t kill, it is God’s glory that kills sinners in the lake of fire. This idea contains less error than what has been postulated elsewhere on MSDAOL (i.e., sin kills sinners).
Actually this is not an either/or question, but a "Both" question, such as "is God one or trinity" or "Is Jesus fully Divine or fully Human"
"Nevertheless, God's infinite righteousness requires that He visit His wrath on sin. Since sin is itself essentially self-destructive, God's "wrath" is the active moral quality against sin. Its own inherent quality is the passive aspect of its destruction. Neither active nor passive destruction of sin could have been understood by the inexperienced creatures. "They would have served God from fear rather than love." (1888 Great Controversy pg 498-499). The consequences are obvious: "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is 'alienated from the life of God.' Christ says, 'All they that hate me love death.' Eph 4:18; Pr 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of him who is love will destroy them."-- John W. Wood, The Mighty Opposites: The Atonement in the Writings of Ellen G. White Part one, "Sanctuary and the Atonement" copyright 1981, Biblical Research Committee of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists page 699.
Likewise we can say that by a life of repentance, Jesus will plase all who unite with him so in harmony with God that His verp presence is to them heaven. The glory of him who is love will be their source of joy and everlasting life.
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/22/04 01:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
We both agree that God will kill sinners, we simply disagree as to how and why. Perhaps we should leave it at that.
Exactly.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/22/04 02:51 AM
Tom, I agree that sin and sinners naturally burn up in the presence of God's glory, but I also believe the Bible and the SOP make it clear that God will use literal fire and brimstone to first punish and then to destroy sinners. Apparently we are never going to agree on this issue until after it is fulfilled.
BTW, did you ever say if the flood was literal, or if the fire and brimstone that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah were literal? And, did God uses these mediums to punish and kill sinners? Or, were they just natural disasters that were going to happen anyhow, and God was trying to warn them, to offer them a way out?
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/22/04 03:02 AM
[BTW, did you ever say if the flood was literal, or if the fire and brimstone that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah were literal? And, did God uses these mediums to punish and kill sinners? Or, were they just natural disasters that were going to happen anyhow, and God was trying to warn them, to offer them a way out? [/QB][/QUOTE]
The people who died in the flood and Sodom and Gamorrah died the first death. The people who die the second death are those who consciously have been shown in detail the great controversy and choose to be sepperated from the only source of life since their character has placed them so out of harmony of God that his pressence becomes a consuming fire to them. This was not the death that we saw at the flood and Sodom and Gamorrrah.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/22/04 06:44 AM
Mike: Tom, I agree that sin and sinners naturally burn up in the presence of God's glory, but I also believe the Bible and the SOP make it clear that God will use literal fire and brimstone to first punish and then to destroy sinners. Apparently we are never going to agree on this issue until after it is fulfilled.
Tom: If sinners have naturally burned up in the presence of God's glory, aren't they all gone? How can God first punish and destroy them if they've been destroyed? Or maybe you mean God withholds His presence from them until after they've been punished and destroyed, and then destroys them? Or maybe the literal fire only punished, but doesn't destroy?
Did you follow the point I made (I've made it a couple of time) that it makes no sense to say that God allowed Satan and his sympathizers' exisitence to continue because if He allowed their existence to end it would not be seen that this was the inevitable result of sin?
What did you think of Fifield's comments?
On your other question, I never did say.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/22/04 08:30 AM
EW 218
The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death-- a death from which there will be no hope of resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 218.1}
1SG 193
But he does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been; while the master has to suffer the seven last plagues, and then come up in the second resurrection, and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the wrath of God will be appeased. {1SG 193.1}
GC 542-544
A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them…. {GC 542.2}
Like the waters of the Flood the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable…. {GC 543.1}
In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom…. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3}
…. They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}
NOTE: death and punishment are clearly two different aspects.
GC 672, 673
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}
The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/22/04 08:42 AM
Kevin, I agree they died the first death. But that wasn’t the essence of my question.
Tom, I didn’t mean to imply that sin and sinners burn up in the presence of God’s glory before they are cast into the lake of fire. I meant that it can happen, but he chooses rather to punish and destroy them using literal fire from above and from beneath. God did not punish and destroy the fallen angels, in the fires reserved for them, the moment they rebelled, because it would not have made sense to the loyal angels at that time. Fifield’s comments were vague. Are you planning to answer the other questions?
Posted By: Doug Meister
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/22/04 09:52 AM
[ January 01, 2005, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/22/04 02:40 PM
These come from writings in for example Ugaric and other ancient sites that date to about the time and earlier than Abraham. You should be able to find different translations in a good sized libarary.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/22/04 09:20 PM
"I meant that it can happen, but he chooses rather to punish and destroy them using literal fire from above and from beneath."
So is this saying that God doesn't destroy sinners by His glory?
quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
This quote is talking about specifically about the destruction of Satan and his followers. It says here that the glory of God will destroy them. This isn't saying that is "can" happen, but that it will.
Regarding the other questions, I think we have enough to consider for the time being.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/22/04 09:24 PM
Then how do we reconcile the following inspired insights? Shouldn't we interpret obscure or difficult passages in the context and weight of overwhelming evidence? I am beginning to believe that the glory of God is symbolic of fire and brimstone.
EW 218
The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death-- a death from which there will be no hope of resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 218.1}
1SG 193
But he does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been; while the master has to suffer the seven last plagues, and then come up in the second resurrection, and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the wrath of God will be appeased. {1SG 193.1}
GC 542-544
A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them…. {GC 542.2}
NOTE: they would welcome destruction, which seems to imply it isn't caused by simply being in the presence of God's glory.
Like the waters of the Flood the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable…. {GC 543.1}
In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom…. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3}
…. They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}
NOTE: death and punishment are not one and same thing. On the contrary, death is the means by which the punishment is ended.
GC 672, 673
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}
The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}
EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/22/04 09:25 PM
"Kevin, what I meant was that stuff on Baal etc developed well before the Jews and Christianity. That seems a bit far fetched."
It's not far-fetched. I studied the same things when I studied theology and at the seminary. Much of what was written in Scriptures just sails right over our heads. It would be as if God wrote things using cars and computers as analogies, and some culture came along aftwards where these things didn't exist.
God did such a wonderful job with the Bible that we can understand much of it, even with our cultural obtuseness, but so much of what is in Scriptures would have been just obvious to whoever heard it at the time it was written, the meaning of which escapes us. The whole concept of the universe was much different for the Hebrews (and contemporary cultures) than it is for us.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/22/04 09:41 PM
If the glory of God consumes sinners, like fire consumes flesh, then why didn't the COI or Moses burn up when God revealed His glory? Instead of becoming charcoal, Moses glowed in glory.
Exodus
16:10 And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.
Exodus
24:16 And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.
24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD [was] like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
24:18 And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.
Exodus
33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, show me thy glory.
33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, [there is] a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Exodus
34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].
34:8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.
34:29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/22/04 09:51 PM
quote:
Then how do we reconcile the following inspired insights? Shouldn't we interpret obscure or difficult passages in the context and weight of overwhelming evidence? I am beginning to believe that the glory of God is symbolic of fire and brimstone.
The glory of God is His character. You would equate God's character with fire and brimstone?
Regarding why Moses wasn't destroyed, it was because God veiled His glory. As He explained, Moses could only see His back parts, because no one could see His face and live.
I'm not sure why you wrote, "if" the glory of God consumes sinners, as if there's any question of this. Are you doubting that this is true?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/22/04 11:31 PM
If the glory of God is His character, how can character consume flesh like fire? Are you suggesting God's hand and backside do not consume like a fire? Does that mean His glory is only 180 degrees? (please excuse the pun)
BTW, if sin is consumed in the presence of God's glory, then doesn't that mean sin is a substance? No, of course not. But if sin can consumed, then sin can be contained, that is, quarantined within the blood of Jesus.
Also, the other questions you are unwilling to address right now, play a big part in this discussion. If you do not believe God killed all those people with fire and with water, then that says alot about your view of punishment and destruction.
PS - did you overlook my second to last post?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/22/04 11:45 PM
Mike: If the glory of God is His character, how can character consume flesh like fire? Are you suggesting God's backside does not consume like a fire? Does that mean His glory is only 180 degrees? (please excuse the pun)
PS - did you overlook my second to last post?
Tom: To sin, wherever it is found, God is a consuming fire (DA 107, and others). In order not to destroy Moses, God veiled His glory. Yes God's character, which is love, would consume sin and destroy the sinner. God's love, agape, is a consuming fire.
Here's the DA quote:
quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.
I read your posts. What did I miss?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/22/04 11:54 PM
quote:
In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin.
This quote tells us plainly that the glory of God consumes the sin within us. It doesn't destroy us in the process. Apparently, the glory of God doesn't burn in the same way fire and brimstone burns.
1. Why is it that only God's face is a consuming fire, and not His hand or back parts?
2. How does flesh differ before and after sin?
3. Why does flesh burn in the face of God's presence now, but not afterwards, in heaven?
4. Are there any examples of the glory of God's face burning up a sinner?
5. Are there any examples of God using fire and brimstone to punish and destroy sinners?
I edited my last post while you were working on yours. I added a few things. Several posts ago I quoted a bunch of passages that describe appeasing the wrath of God and the lake of fire. Is there any reason why we shouldn't take these plain insights literally?
[ December 22, 2004, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/23/04 01:03 AM
Exd 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Deu 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
/Thomas
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/23/04 02:26 AM
These direct quotes must not be ignored, Mike. The character of God is His glory therefore His glory is His character:
"Through trial and persecution the glory--the character-- of God is revealed in His chosen ones."{AA 576.4}
"By implanting in their hearts the principles of His word, the Holy Spirit develops in men the attributes of God. The light of His glory--His character--is to shine forth in His followers. Thus they are to glorify God, to lighten the path to the Bridegroom's home, to the city of God, to the marriage supper of the Lamb." {COL 414.2}
"And that character which expresses the glory--character--of Christ will be received into the Paradise of God. A renovated race shall walk with Him in white, for they are worthy." {DA 331.2}
"He has called us "to the obtaining of the glory"--character--"of our Lord Jesus Christ;" has called us to be "conformed to the image of His Son." 2 Thess. 2:14; Rom. 8:29. {DA 341.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/23/04 04:24 AM
Ikan, when I posted "if the glory of God is His character" I did not mean to imply I doubt it. I have believed it for years. The question now is, How should we understand this fact in light of the questions and quotes I posted?
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/23/04 05:26 AM
Looks like a busy day, and I don't have much time, but I would like to put in a few quick comments:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
.
EW 218
The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death-- a death from which there will be no hope of resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 218.1}
Here again as we look at the fact that God's wrath is towards sin and it's horrible effects, and how the safty of the universe is in understanding the insues of the three deceptions of Satan. Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess, and some will choose to live forever in the fire of God's love, others will no longer want to live, so they go into the everlasting death. It will be a sad moment but sin will never more arise to give anymore pain, and all that happens is just and mercyful.
quote:
1SG 193
But he does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been; while the master has to suffer the seven last plagues, and then come up in the second resurrection, and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the wrath of God will be appeased. {1SG 193.1}[/QB]
The seven last plagues are again a oneness of being in God's control, but yet the result of people's choice of sin. We have plagues... AIDS, Mad Cow Disease, the pollution of our water system, a major one is global heating. The seven last plagues are the 7 last steps of earth becoming unable to support life and all life would did if the second coming did not interviene at the last moment.
But the 7 last plagues again are showing the contrast between living a life of self seeking as opposed to the law of Self Sacrificing love.
And as for the person in question (appears to be the slave holder, and what could have happened had the work been finished and Jesus come err this) once again they will face the horrable moment at the end as they realize how cruely they treated another human being, and they see it not through our eyes, but through God's eyes. It is a horrible revelation. Instead of casting their crown at Jesus feet saying "Holy, Holy, Holy" and become overwhelmed with the power of Grace. They have become so selfish that they only like Judas look at the horror of their sin and just want to die.
quote:
GC 542-544
A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them…. {GC 542.2}
NOTE: they would welcome destruction, which seems to imply it isn't caused by simply being in the presence of God's glory.[/QB]
Or this quote could be interepeted as how uncomfortable they would feel if they were to spend forever with Jesus. May I encourage you to read John 3, the verses just after 3:16, where Jesus tells that those who are lost are lost because they refuse to come to the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed, in other words, they feel that God is going to get them for their sins. They want to hide from their life record, they are afraid of what God is showing them as their lingering questions are answered, they want to self justify themselves in a light where there is no excuse. But those who come to the light, instead of finding a condeming God, find that their lives change. They are transformed into his likeness and it is heaven to be with him.
quote:
Like the waters of the Flood the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable…. {GC 543.1}
In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom…. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3} [/QB]
Jesus has done all he could. How many of those who rejected Jesus when he was on earth would feel that they had an excuse because he appeared simply as a human being? Had they seen him as Daniel did in such glory that he fainted, surely they would have then known that he was indeed the Messiah and accepted him. God was unfair to them by only lettng them see Jesus as another human.
We ourselves have not always been the best reflection of Christ. How unfair of God to send us to witness to them instead of letting them see Jesus in person and having the perfect witness.
In this event this is all cleared up. Those who have somehow responded to Jesus love hear his voice in the first resurection. Here the others can see Jesus for who he truely is, in all his power, glory and LOVE. Yet they continue to refuse.
quote:
…. They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}
NOTE: death and punishment are not one and same thing. On the contrary, death is the means by which the punishment is ended.[/QB]
Or it could be the process that leads to death. Does cancer cause suffering or death? What the lost are going through is the trifold process of having a sinful nature that controls their life, seeing their deepest desire, Jesus, in person and the attraction to him, yet their self imposed fear of him, and Jesus showing them exactly what their role in the Great Controversy was. This process will take a while, depending on how hard the heart is.
quote:
GC 672, 673
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}[/QB]
What other human language can discribe the intencity of that day? We need to take all the texts together as the prophets use the fire texts to illustrate to our minds the intensity of what is going to happen, but also look as they give the additional information to try to ballance and fill out that picture, remember Isaiah 34:8 is not too far away from Isaiah 33 which says that while the sinners will die in this fire, the righteous will live forever in it.
quote:
The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}
EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2} [/QB]
Please look at earlier dealings with this passage, and also the reading from the Morning Devotional Book "Mysteries Unvailed" by Lynn Wood that I posted here. Remember, Satan was the one who stood right in God's pressence for who knows how long. Satan has the hardest heart in the universe. Satan will do the most self justification before declareing the righteousness of Jehovah. What else can you expect to have happen? All we need to do is look to see how the Bible and Mrs. White define what (or shall we say "who") the fire is.
It would be one thing if we were to ONLY have the fire texts alone. It is something else when we have both a multitude of fire texts that illustrate something, in which fire is the best similie, AND the other texts and quotes that define just what (or who) this fire actually is.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/23/04 08:27 AM
Kevin, or the facts can mean exactly the opposite of what you posted, that is, they can mean exactly what they say - God will punish, and then destroy, sinners using literal fire and brimstone. There is no evidence that the glory of God has ever consumed or killed sinners, in the meantime, there is plenty of evidence that God has used fire and brimstone to punish and destroy sinners. He has also used water, war and disease.
The 7 last plagues are no more natural occurrences than the 10 plagues that brought Pharaoh to his knees. Yes, God used the forces of nature to accomplish His purposes, except when He dispatch holy angels to kill the first born.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/24/04 07:29 AM
Well, Mike, apparently Jacob was surprised that he was not destroyed by God's glory: (note carefully WHY he was preserved)
"In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30.Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed.
At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}
"..wherever men came.." covers alot of turf.
First death and second death, second Advent or third Advent, it is still when men were exposed, for what they are, and exposed in various degrees in the past(dictated by Him) by what He is.
Look...You can believe in a modified semi-cruel arbitrary Father quite different from Jesus' example while on earth if you like.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/24/04 08:11 AM
Ikan, everything you posted about God is true. Even though there are no examples of sinners burning up in the presence of God, it may very well be possible. But I'm still not convinced it isn't a metaphor, perhaps referring to literal fire and brimstone.
"In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin." It is obvious that the fire referred to here is figurative, which makes me wonder about the whole concept of God's glory being a consuming fire. What kind of fire is it talking about? You seem to think it literally burns up unshielded sinners. I don't know. "God destroys no man...." That is, before their time. The blood of Pharaoh's first born testifies to the facts.
This much I do believe, God has used literal fire and brimstone to punish and to consume (i.e., kill) sinners in the past. He has also used other means to accomplish the same purpose. Does this mean God is semi-cruel and arbitrary? I don't think so. The holy angels rejoice everytime God punishes and consumes sinners. Sound strange? Not if we knew what they know!
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/24/04 08:56 AM
There are different types of fire. Here are a few:
Con 81 and PP 359
Aaron's sons took the common fire, which God did not accept, and they offered insult to the infinite God by presenting this strange fire before Him. God consumed them by fire for their positive disregard of His express directions. {Con 81.1} For this sin a fire went out from the Lord and devoured them in the sight of the people. {PP 359.2} NOTE: they were in the very presence of God, and yet He used fire to consume them, instead of His "glory".
SR 59
[Enoch] saw the righteous crowned with glory and honor while the wicked were separated from the presence of the Lord and consumed with fire. {SR 58.3} NOTE: they are first separated from the presence of God, and then they are consumed with fire.
CD 60
The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was on account of their great wickedness…. their cup of iniquity was full, and they were consumed with fire from heaven. {CD 60.2}
TMK 271
As in ancient times, when prayer was offered, fire descended from heaven and consumed the sacrifice upon the altar, so in answer to our prayers, the heavenly fire will come into our souls. {TMK 271.4}
GC 621
[During Jacob’s time of trouble] Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but the Refiner will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire… it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected. {GC 621.1}
4aSG 92, 93
[Because David numbered the people] God accepted the offering by answering David in sending fire from Heaven to consume the sacrifice. The angel of God was commanded to put his sword into his sheath, and cease his work of destruction. {4aSG 92.3}
2T 269
He did not leave you in the furnace for the fire of affliction to consume... The furnace was to purify and refine, but not to consume and destroy. {2T 269.1}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/24/04 10:02 PM
How we interpret the Scriptures and the Spirit of Prophesy will be to a large extend dependent on how we view God's character and the nature of sin. Is sin something which God finds unpleasant, and therefore punishes because He doesn't like it? Or is sin deadly in and of itself? Does sin bring about its own punishment, or is the punishment of sin due to an arbitrary act of God?
How does God eliminate sin? Is it by force? Or is it through love and truth?
What is God like? Does He use force to get His way? Will He win the Great Controversy because He is stronger than anyone else?
How does God save us? Is it by appeasing His wrath by arbitrarily punishing Christ so He doesn't have to arbitrarily punish us?
I am using the word "arbitrary" in a careful way. "Arbitrary" means according to individual discretion as opposed to law. The Bible speaks of the law of sin and death. If the law of sin and death is that sin causes death, then we can understand both the atonement and the destruction of the wicked in a non-arbitrary way. If there is no causative link, then both the atonement and the destruction of the wicked are events determined sole at the individual discretion of God, and are hence arbitrary by definition.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 12/29/04 08:04 PM
The wrath of God is love. No question about it. I do not doubt God's love. Yes, He will be forced to punish and destroy sinners in the lake of fire. But this strange act does not mean He is arbitrary. The idea that God does not punish sinners before He destroys them with literal fire and brimstone is false.
The idea that sin itself destroys sinners is false. Sin is not a combustible agent. Rather, sin is the transgression of the law. And, had God not barred access to the tree of life sinners would live forever. "Lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever." Gen 3:22.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/01/05 04:05 AM
Mike: The wrath of God is love. No question about it. I do not doubt God's love.
Tom: We agree here. God's love is His wrath.
Mike: Yes, He will be forced to punish and destroy sinners in the lake of fire.
Tom: What forces God? What can force God?
Mike: But this strange act does not mean He is arbitrary.
Tom: As I explained, it is arbitrary if it does not follow from some law but is only applied as an act of individual discretion.
Mike: The idea that God does not punish sinners before He destroys them with literal fire and brimstone is false.
Tom: He punishes them and then destroys them with literal fire and brimstone? What are you referring to here? Where does the glory of God which destroys them fit in? Is that part of the pre-destruction punishment which doesn't destroy them, or does He destroy them by His glory after He destroys them with fire and brimstone? How does He punish them?
Mike: The idea that sin itself destroys sinners is false. Sin is not a combustible agent. Rather, sin is the transgression of the law.
Tom: You seem to be inconsistent with your treatment of sin. I'm the one who's been saying it is transgression of the law, and as such is makes no sense to say it is "quarantined" in blood.
Mike: And, had God not barred access to the tree of life sinners would live forever. "Lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever." Gen 3:22.
Tom: You bring this up a lot, although I'm not sure why. Do you think if Adam and Eve had eaten even once of the tree of life, they would have lived forever? Do you think they didn't eat of it before they ate of the forbidden tree?
Posted By: Dan Wilson
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/01/05 05:34 AM
I must confess I haven't read all the posts so I may be missing some info. I do have two questions. Was the flood literal and did they drown in real water? Were Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed by real fire?
1 Peter 3:10
"In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from Heaven in his wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it." {3SG 82.3}
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/01/05 10:48 AM
Hi Dan, and welcome to the discussion. I hope that you will read more of the posts. I especially recommend the page from the Morning Watch Book "Mysteries Unveiled" by Lynn Wood, copyright 1944. I find this to be a very important topic from which I get my understanding of the purpose and perpetatuty of God's law, the Investigative Judgment, and how God works with us.
As to your question, Yes they were literal, and both, as well as the destruction of Pharaoh' Army in the Red Sea, and the destruction by the Assyrians and Babylonians, and the fall of these powers and re-establishment of God's people have all become illustrations of what will happen at the end of time. Yet, we don't argue that hell will be waters covering the wicked, or some army destroying them, we like to gravitate to the fire texts. Now there is nothing wrong with this in and of itself, and if we were to read through the Bible and Mrs. White and find the FIRE TEXTS ONLY, then that would be one thing. But since on this topic both the Bible and Mrs. White give definition that they mean when they talk about the final fire. I feel that it is not right to try to explain away their explanation so that we can make the illustration used become the final word.
When God says "I will destroy the wicked like a consuming fire" and even goes on to clarify by saying "I am a consuming fire" we say, "No, my proof texts talks about fire, therefore what God meant to say is "I will use fire to destroy them" so lets change his words to fit our proof texts and not modify the proof texts by the texts that give an explanation. And when Ellen White says "The glory of Him that is love will consume the wicked." well, she also uses the texts talking about fire and builds on it, so let's go with those quotes and say that "Yes, God will show his glory, but that does not consume them, God has to make a literal fire outside of him self to do the job."
When Isaiah says that the righteous will live forever in the eternal fire, while the wicked are killed by it, we cannot believe him, because we have our hell fire texts, only the lost will be in hell fire, so don't believe Isaiah when he says that the righteous will also be in the fire and live in it forever.
Now just because I understand the fire texts to be a way to reach the human mind to indicate the power and the act of consuming the wicked, does not mean that I think that the destruction of the wicked should be taken as not literal (I've gotten the impression in some of the questions here that if the destruction of the wicked is not caused by a literal fire external from God Himself, that somehow I must not believe in a literal destruction of the wicked)
Yes, the wicked will indeed be destroyed, yes the wicked will indeed be consumed. Yes, fire is used to illustrate the intensity of what will happen. Yes the intensity of this event will destroy old planet earth and the righteous will witness creation week as the new earth is created where this earth currently is (and the new earth is not the old earth with a paint job). But when it comes to the details of how this is done, God says that HE IS THE FIRE, Mrs. White said that God's character of love is what consumes the wicked, and Isaiah tells us that the righteous experience the same event as the wicked do, but while the wicked are killed by the eternal fire, the righteous live forever in the eternal fire.
The issue is not over whether or not there will be some literal event at the end where God kills the sinners. The issue is whether God is doing two different thing, something nice to the saved, and a very separate, outside of himself event which is not so nice to the lost, by burning them in the same type of fire that the Catholics used to burn John Hus, or does God do one act, treat us all the same, and for some that act is heaven and eternal life, while for others that act is hell and eternal death. Even your quote closes with the summery sentence "GOD will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it." (Emphases mine) God does it, and as you keep comparing the texts and quotes, you see that how he does it is the same way he purifies his precious ones. It is his love that causes two responses; it's his love that does the cleaning from sin.
If we were to look at the 7th plague, and look up the words in Strongs Concordance, you will find out that these things symbolize the personal presence of God. Thus the 7th plague, the perfect plague, is the second coming of Jesus. To the lost it is the worst plague possible, but to the redeemed it is the blessed hope. Our blessed hope is their perfect, complete and most feared plague. Now because I believe that the 7th plague is the second coming of Jesus does not mean that I don't take that event literally.
I hope this helps to clarify.
And again, let me repeat another illustration I've said before, but is worth repeating: When Jesus was born, the Magi found the one they have been searching for all their lives, and it completed their lives. But to Herod that exact same event was horrible and drove him even deeper into his insanity to try to prevent. Now did Mary give birth to twins, one who was a sweet harmless baby whose birth was a blessing to the Magi and a second who was a torturer to Herod? Or was it two different reactions to the exact same baby and the exact same act of God? The reaction of Herod and the Magi is also a foretaste of what will happen in the end.
Mrs. White also illustrates this by having Jesus give both Peter and Judas the same look that night, and the same expression drove one to repentance and the other to suicide.
Now this can be somewhat of a difficult concept to understand. Few, if any, of us would consider ourselves peers to the great scholar Edward Heppenstall. Yet even he went through his life undecided between these two views of hell, and therefore would teach both, and went to his grave undecided. It took me three years to come to embrace this view. One book that I just recently read gives what I find to be wonderful illustrations that you might find helpful is "The Magician's Nephew" by C. S. Lewis.
[ January 01, 2005, 04:46 AM: Message edited by: Kevin H ]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/02/05 07:30 AM
Pastor Dan, I do not believe all the stories of God killing sinners illustrate the elimination of sin and sinners in the lake of fire. The Bible says Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of the final demise of sin and sinners. Therefore, it make more sense, to me, to interpret the statements regarding the glory of God as symbolizing literal fire and brimstone, rather than the other way around. There are no examples of God’s glory consuming anyone or anything. This absence should lead us to conclude it is a metaphor. Also, the idea that God punishes the wicked before He destroys them is true too.
2 Peter
2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly…
2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Jude
1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/02/05 02:45 AM
Mike You seem to assert that the presence of Christ in His Divinity, His true glory or character, never affected, harmed, struck, killed or even bothered the saint or sinner.
You seem to claim that those coming into His "range of power", whether saint or sinner, are not affected.
You never answered the EGW quote about Jacob's wrestling with the Lord.
Please explain your take on these:
"The beasts and birds were all hurried beyond the sacred portals. A panic of fear swept over the multitude who felt the over-shadowing of Christ's divinity. Cries of terror escaped from hundreds of blanched lips as the crowd rushed headlong from the place. Jesus smote them not with the whip of cords, but, to their guilty eyes, that simple instrument seemed like gleaming, angry swords, circling in every direction, and threatening to cut them down. Even the disciples quaked with fear, and were awe-struck by the words and manner of Jesus, so unlike the usual demeanor of the meek and lowly man of Galilee. But they remembered that it was written of him, "The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up." Soon the multitude, with their cattle, their sheep, doves, and sparrows, were far removed from the temple of the Lord. The courts were free from unholy commerce, and a deep silence and solemnity settled upon the late scene of confusion. If the presence of the Lord sanctified the mount, his presence made equally sacred the temple reared to his honor."{2SP 118.2}
"In the early days of our experience in the message, the Spirit of God often came upon a few of us as we were assembled, and I was taken away in vision. The Lord gave such light and evidence, such comfort and hope and joy, that His praises were upon our lips." {1SM 50.1}
"November 20, 1855, while in prayer, the Spirit of the Lord came suddenly and powerfully upon me, and I was taken off in vision. I saw that the Spirit of the Lord has been dying away from the church."--Testimonies, vol. 1, p. 113.
"But an angel of God met him on the way and controlled him. The Spirit of God held him in Its power, and he went forward uttering prayers to God, interspersed with predictions and sacred melodies. He prophesied of the coming Messiah as the world's Redeemer. When he came to the prophet's home in Ramah, he laid aside the outer garments that betokened his rank, and all day and all night he lay before Samuel and his pupils, under the influence of the divine Spirit. The people were drawn together to witness this strange scene, and the experience of the king was reported far and wide. Thus again, near the close of his reign, it became a proverb in Israel that Saul also was among the prophets." {PP 654.1}
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/02/05 05:09 PM
Mike, about your argument that God's glory never killed anyone, that is because it would be the second death. It is only Jesus, who knew the full glory of God and choose to allow my sins to sepperate him from it, who died the second death.
But remember Moses had to be hid in the cleft of the rock and see only God's back, and when he returned needed to wear a vale because he shined so bright that it hurt the eyes of the people to look upon him. When Daniel saw Michael, he fell as if dead, When the angel came to resurect Jesus the soldiers seeing the reflected glory fell as if dead.
A pagan king once said to a Jewish Rabbi, "If your God is so great, why can't I see him? I'm able to see my gods." The Rabbi told the king "Look at the sun." The king replied "I can't it's too bright." The Rabbi concluded "The sun is simply a creation and servant of my God. If you can't look upon my God's servant, how can you look at my God?"
We might argue that the sun has not really been a danger to us, or that the stars never killed anyone, but the reason for this is not in the potential, but in the distance we are from these stars and the elements that we have had (and are sadly loosing) in our atmosphere that has kept us safe from the potential danger.
So, God has limited our exposure to his glory as we either harden into stubble, or be purified by the Holy Spirit into gold that will spend eternity glitering in the glow of that glory.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/02/05 08:21 PM
Ikan, when people fear someone as powerful as Jesus, as when He cleansed the temple, that is understandable. I, too, would not like it if God decided He didn't like me. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But was it His burning brightness that caused them such pain and fear?
Kevin, the story of Moses, and others, meeting God "face to face" does not lead me to speculate that the glory of God consumes flesh. Neither did God's back parts or hand consume like fire. But if, as you say, sinful flesh cannot endure the glory of God, why have so many sinners survived in His presence? Is sinful flesh combustible?
Genesis
32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Exodus
33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
Deuteronomy
5:4 The LORD talked with [the COI] face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
Judges
6:22 And when Gideon perceived that he [was] an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face.
Ezekiel
20:35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
Exodus
33:18 And [Moses] said, I beseech thee, show me thy glory.
33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, [there is] a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/04/05 07:50 AM
quote:
Therefore, it make more sense, to me, to interpret the statements regarding the glory of God as symbolizing literal fire and brimstone, rather than the other way around.
This seems to me to be doing a great disservice to God. God's glory is His character. How can His character be viewed as a symbol of literal fire and brimstone? That seems as backwards to me as it's possible to get. The Creator is a symbol of the created.
Regarding your questions as to how people have survived God's presenece, it is because God veiled His glory. There are scores of Spirit of Prophesy texts on this. Surely you're familiar with at least some of them. For example, God shrouded His glory when He descended to Calvary when Christ was dying there, lest His glory consume those who were there (this is from "Calvary" in "The Desire of Ages").
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/03/05 08:19 PM
Tom, you have made it abundantly clear that the glory of God consumes sinful flesh like a fire. Is this insight a disservice to God? an insult to His character? Even if I agreed with you, I wouldn't consider it an insult or disservice - just the truth.
It is in the nature and character of God to deal fairly and faultlessly with rebels and the great controversy. The wages of sin is death, and God is the banker. The law of God, a transcript of His character, requires death for sin. Only God can create life, and only God can uncreate it. He is the source of life. God uses fire and brimstone to punish and to eliminate sin and sinners in the lake of fire. This is His glory.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/03/05 08:59 PM
Mike: Tom, you have made it abundantly clear that the glory of God consumes sinful flesh like a fire.
Tom: I don't think I've ever said this. I don't necessarily disagree with it, but I find it curious that you would state I have made something "abundatly clear" that I have never said.
Mike: Is this insight a disservice to God? an insult to His character? Even if I agreed with you, I wouldn't consider it an insult or disservice - just the truth.
Tom: I'm saying God's glory is His character. You are saying God's glory is a symbol of fire and brimstone. Do you not see the difference?
Mike: It is in the nature and character of God to deal fairly and faultlessly with rebels and the great controversy.
Tom: Of course.
Mike: The wages of sin is death, and God is the banker. The law of God, a transcript of His character, requires death for sin.
Tom: Why? Is this arbitrary? Or is it a law that sin causes death?
Mike: Only God can create life, and only God can uncreate it.
Tom: People are killed everyday in ways which have nothing to do with God's taking action against them.
Mike: He is the source of life.
Tom: Right, which is why separating oneself from Him, which is what sin does, causes death.
Mike: God uses fire and brimstone to punish and to eliminate sin and sinners in the lake of fire. This is His glory.
Tom: The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that to sin wherever it is found, God is a consuming fire. It tells us that sinners will be destroyed by God's glory if they insist on clinging to sin. Since there are texts in inspiration recording that sinners will be destroyed by fire and brimstone, we have two things happening:
1) Sinners are destroyed by God's glory.
2) Sinners are destroyed by fire and brimstone.
It appears to me you are reconciling these two items by equating God's glory with fire and brimstone. I find that to be bizarre.
God's glory is His character. Do you disagree with this? How could God's character be equated with fire and brimstone? Doesn't it make a lot more sense to understand that the fire and brimstone represent God's destructive work as a consuming fire than to make God a simble of fire and brimstone?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/03/05 09:52 PM
1. Okay, maybe I misunderstood your position. From reading your posts throughout MSDAOL somehow I got the impression you believe it is the glory of God that consumes sin and sinners in the lake of fire.
2. I, too, believe the glory of God is His character. But when Inspiration says the glory of God is a consuming fire, I interpret it to mean the glory of God is like a consuming fire, not that it is, or that it burns bodies like fire and brimstone. I don’t have a problem with the idea that fire and brimstone symbolizes the glory or character of God, not any more than I do with Inspiration saying our God is a consuming fire.
Exodus
24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
Deuteronomy
5:24 And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath showed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.
2 Chronicles
7:1 Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.
7:2 And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD'S house.
7:3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the LORD, [saying], For [he is] good; for his mercy [endureth] for ever.
Isaiah
10:16 Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
3. Yes, the law of sin and death requires eternal death for sin. Why? Because that’s the way God established things. There’s nothing arbitrary about it. If that’s what makes sense to God, then that’s what makes sense. Does sin naturally kill sinners? No, of course not. The Bible makes that clear. But you and I are most likely not going to agree on this aspect of the issue.
4. I disagree. God is always active whenever someone dies. He is either prevents it or allows it. Either way He is in control.
5. If being separated from God kills us, then why aren’t we dead? According to you, being in the presence of God is what kills us.
6. Wow! Did you change your mind? Or, have you been saying all along that God will use fire and brimstone to destroy sinners? By the way, I have changed my mind since we started studying this together. I now believe the expression, Our God is a consuming fire, is a referrence to the fact He will use fire and brimstone to punish and to destroy sin and sinners in the lake of fire.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/04/05 01:09 AM
1. Okay, maybe I misunderstood your position. From reading your posts throughout MSDAOL somehow I got the impression you believe it is the glory of God that consumes sin and sinners in the lake of fire.
Tom: I never wrote exactly what you attributed to me, although you'll notice I stated that I didn't necessarily disagree with what you wrote. Here's what I believe:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
(DA 764)
I do not believe that fire and brimstone are God's character.
2. I, too, believe the glory of God is His character. But when Inspiration says the glory of God is a consuming fire, I interpret it to mean the glory of God is like a consuming fire, not that it is, or that it burns bodies like fire and brimstone. I don’t have a problem with the idea that fire and brimstone symbolizes the glory or character of God, not any more than I do with Inspiration saying our God is a consuming fire.
Tom: Inspiration says (talking about the destruction of the wicked) "the glory of God will destroy them." What do you understand that to mean?
3. Yes, the law of sin and death requires eternal death for sin. Why? Because that’s the way God established things. There’s nothing arbitrary about it.
Tom: You seem to not understand what "arbitrary" means, although I've pointed it out several times. "Arbitrary" means "by individual discretion, as opposed to by a law." When you say that "that's the way God established things" that is EXACTLY WHAT ARBITRARY MEANS. (please pardon the shouting). You're saying, "there's nothing aribtrary about it" is also arbitrary. Again, please consider the meaning of the word.
Mike: If that’s what makes sense to God, then that’s what makes sense.
Tom: This is arbitrary too.
Mike: Does sin naturally kill sinners? No, of course not.
Tom: Sin does indeed cause death: "This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life."
i) The desctruction of the wicked is NOT an act arbitrary (that is, individual discretion rather than by law) power on the part of God.
ii) God is the fountain of life. When one separates from God, one cuts himself off from life (i.e. dies).
Mike: The Bible makes that clear. But you and I are most likely not going to agree on this aspect of the issue.
Tom: Maybe not. I'm not sure what you mean by "naturally." The way I would put it is that sin causes death because one who sins cuts himself off from God, who is the source of life.
4. I disagree. God is always active whenever someone dies. He is either prevents it or allows it. Either way He is in control.
Tom: You're contradicting yourself. If God "allows" it, then he is not "active." "Active" means actually performing, not "allowing." If you understand "active" to mean "allow," that could explain some of our disagreements. For example, you say that God is the author of death. If "author" means "one who allows," then that would certainly be true. Nothing happens in the universe which God doesn't allow, so if that's what "active" means, then God is certainly "active" in everything that happens.
I think this understanding of the word "active" would be unique to you, however.
5. If being separated from God kills us, then why aren’t we dead? According to you, being in the presence of God is what kills us.
Tom: This is why we aren't dead:
quote:
Man broke God's law, and through the Redeemer new and fresh promises were made on a different basis. All blessings must come through a Mediator. Now every member of the human family is given wholly into the hands of Christ, and whatever we possess--whether it is the gift of money, of houses, of lands, of reasoning powers, of physical strength, of intellectual talents--in this present life, and the blessings of the future life, are placed in our possession as God's treasures to be faithfully expended for the benefit of man. Every gift is stamped with the cross and bears the image and superscription of Jesus Christ. All things come of God. From the smallest benefits up to the largest blessing, all flow through the one Channel--a superhuman mediation sprinkled with the blood that is of value beyond estimate because it was the life of God in His Son.
(FW 22)
In the judgment, the grace which God extends us now will no longer be extended, and the wicked will die.
6. Wow! Did you change your mind? Or, have you been saying all along that God will use fire and brimstone to destroy sinners? By the way, I have changed my mind since we started studying this together. I now believe the expression, Our God is a consuming fire, is a referrence to the fact He will use fire and brimstone to punish and to destroy sin and sinners in the lake of fire.
Tom: I don't understand your questions about my changing. I believed what DA 764 and DA 107 say, and still do.
You changing in a wierd direction it seems to me. Why not change to believe the fire and brimstone represents God's glory? Why make the Creator into something He created? Doesn't the other way around make more sense?
Consider this quote:
quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)
In all who submit to His power, the Spirit of God will what? become fire and brimstone? Does that really make sense?
God is love. Love is a principle which is based on giving of oneself for others. Sin is a principle based on selfishness, isolation, which cuts self off from others.
The principle of love is eternal. The principle of selfishness is suicidal. It cannot exist forever, by its very nature.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/04/05 03:20 AM
You didn't say anything about glory-fire passages I quoted.
PS - if someone has the power to start or stop something he is an active part of the process.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/04/05 05:34 AM
What was the point of the passages you quoted? What should I be commenting on? And besides, I was first
![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif)
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/09/05 05:36 AM
Mike said,
quote:
PS - if someone has the power to start or stop something he is an active part of the process.
Hi Mike, I had hoped that you would benefit something by the very meaningful and skillful presentation of truth by Tom.
According to your statement, since God has the power to know and affect each and every thought of ours, to prevent man's consideration of sin, or Satan's for that matter, that he (God) is therefore an active part in sin, perhaps better said the only active part in sin. For if he has the power to start and stop our thought, than no one else has it, including ourselves. Then the bottom line is it is not our thought but His.
Or did God give us the power to think and judge and charged us with the responsibility of it. That his involvement with our thoughts is to convict of sin, righteousness, and judgment, by his spirit, while at the same time leaving us sovereign of our thoughts. That therefore there is an accountability of our thoughts to God, because we are sovereign. That therefore there is the possibility of sin, the wrongful use of the entrusted powers.
Shalom
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/09/05 05:21 PM
John, while it is true God can start or stop anything and everything, including our thoughts, words and deeds, He chooses when to and when not to get involved. God is sovereign of everything. That includes us. He could have just as easily prevented Eve, or Adam, from eating the fruit as He prevented Balaam from cursing Israel.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/09/05 10:01 PM
Even though God can start or stop anything, the one thing He won't do, and consequently has tied his own hands in that respect, is that He won't interfere with our free-will, therefore, we choose whether or not to serve Him. We also by that choice also choose to live eternally or to ultimately die the second death.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/09/05 10:06 PM
By the way, sin can't be destroyed simply by destroying sinners.
That was proven by the worldwide flood.
The only way sin can be destroyed is by revealing to everyone sin for what sin is.
Only then can sin also be destroyed with those sinners who reject His gift of salvation.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/09/05 11:15 PM
Where there is free will there is sovereignty. I do not know that you believe that Mike. God's overuling of Balaam has not to do with Balaam's free will or his thoughts, but his actions and then only his actions in the capacity and function as prophet (spokesman for God) he could utter only what God gave him. Outside of that we see what counsel he gave Balak.
However Mike, where your point is, is that whether God 'interferes or not' he is active part of whatever it is, and that means sin also. You cannot be choosy in shifting the blame. Taking the simply physical might of God to come to this conclusion is totally misunderstanding the parameters and social structure that God established at creation.
These parameters and social structure which God purposed and set were such that gave the beings created in his own image a free will and personal individual thought of which they were and are sovereign. Therefore there is acountability and possibility of sin. Sin of which God is not part of.
Shalom
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/09/05 11:20 PM
Daryl, fully agreed that sin cannot be destroyed simply by destroying sinners.
The only way sin can ever be overcome is by the revelation of God's love and character.
It is only then that anything can be seen about sin in its true light.
So the overcoming of sin has to deal with seeing God for what he really is, as opposed to our sinful view.
Shalom
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/10/05 12:37 AM
Amen, Daryl, to both posts, and very well put (put in a way that anyone can agree with, regardless of which side of the destruction question one is on)
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/10/05 12:41 AM
"The only way sin can ever be overcome is by the revelation of God's love and character.
It is only then that anything can be seen about sin in its true light."
Yes, because sin has to do with questioning God's character. Satan accused God of being arbitrary and selfish. If God were to respond in an arbitrary and selfish way, that could hardly defeat Satan's argument.
Instead God has responded in a way that anyone can review the evidence, and come to the conclusion that God does indeed run His government based on the principles of love and truth just as He claims, rather than based on force, as the enemy claims (and as the enemy runs his government).
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/10/05 04:26 AM
Yes Tom, well put. Moreover there are wonderful things about God's love that has not entered into the mind of man, that God reveals to those that love him.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/10/05 07:27 AM
Daryl, your insights are only partly true. They fail to explain the story of Balaam. And, did you overlook the 8 souls on the ark, and the millions of evil angels, that God did not destroy in the flood?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/10/05 06:52 PM
The story of Balaam was already explained by somebody else here, however, further discussion on that may be beneficial. I will do some research on that.
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
No, I didn't overlook the 8 souls on the ark, and neither did I overlook the millions of evil angels.
The Lake of Fire will ultimately destroy those millions of evil angels and all sinners who have either neglected or rejected the Plan of Salvation. Sin can only be destroyed by destroying those sinners plus
Then only the redeemed sinners/saints and all of the other angels and those of the unfallen worlds will remain and will know the ugliness of sin to the extent that sin will never rise a second time. This is also how sin will be destroyed never to rise again.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/11/05 08:51 AM
Sin cannot be destroyed by destroying sinners. That was the point of this thread.
Sin came into existance in the very presence of God when there were no sinners in existence. This proves that simply not having sinners does not imply that sin will not arise.
God has promised that sin will not arise again? How does He accomplish this?
quote:
It was God's purpose to place things on an eternal basis of security, and in the councils of heaven it was decided that time must be given for Satan to develop the principles which were the foundation of his system of government. He had claimed that these were superior to God's principles. Time was given for the working of Satan's principles, that they might be seen by the heavenly universe....
Could one sin have been found in Christ, had He in one particular yielded to Satan to escape the terrible torture, the enemy of God and man would have triumphed. Christ bowed His head and died, but He held fast His faith and His submission to God. "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10.
Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. (DA 760, 761)
It was by way of the cross that an eternal basis of security of the Universe was effected. The cross allows the destruction of sin in such a way that it will not arise again. This is because the cross makes clear all the principles involved in the Great Controversy.
Here's what would could have happened had God not used the cross to eliminate sin:
quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/11/05 05:21 PM
Okay, Daryl, that sounds more like it. I knew, or at least suspected we were in agreement. It is too obvious that when God eliminates sinners in the lake of fire that sin is also gone.
Yeah, check out the story of Balaam and you'll see what I mean about God exerting His influence to prevent him from cursing Israel. Trhough it all He never violated his freedom of choice, and yet God got His way. The same is true of Cyrus. And the same is true of all the evil angels, who cannot go beyond the limits God places upon them.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/23/05 05:16 PM
Quote:
Mike: He is the source of life.
Tom: Right, which is why separating oneself from Him, which is what sin does, causes death.
Unquote.
Interpreting Tom’s view, I might say as follow:
It is Adam’s and Eve’s own will to separate from God, it is their choice. They were created “sinless”, so, if sin does separate them from God, I may say, it is “self” that separate them from the Source of Life.
This separation causes death, which means, they choose to die rather than to live everlasting, their choice is based on their unbelief in God’s word: “…you will surely die.”
So, I can not accept your view Tom, because I believe it is not because of sin, or of self, or of a choice they died, but because of God had created the death as a means to abolish sin and sinners forever from his universe.
They only chose death instead of life, set before them by God (Deuteronomy 30: 15,19) but it is not their own work, their own will or their sin that causes them die. It is God creation that caused them die, death that takes their life.
How can they live if they are not created, and how could they die if there is no death? But death unites in their body after eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, same as the tree of life with it fruits that prolonged life, the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil is deadly, in it God put the death, cutting their life. God create life in his creation, but God created death ONLY in the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.
When Adam’s descendant was destined to die because they inherit Adam’s and Eve death body, there is no hindrance for God to kill them for they must surely die. He might kill men using his own hand, or using other means as flood, earth quake, fire, disease, or using the hand of the Devil by permitting him to kill us (Job 1:12).
So, I think, sin that causes death is not correct, sin is only a means where because of it we die (the wages of sin is death, which refer to the 2nd death). It is death it self as God creation hidden in the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil that killed Adam and Eve (the 1st death), while Adam’s descendant inherits his death body for they were all born in his likeness after his image after the fall where death already unites in his body (Genesis 5:3), meanwhile it is God act at the end of time that killed sinners (2nd death) in the lake of fire.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/23/05 05:18 PM
Tom wrote:
Tom: Sin does indeed cause death: "This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life."
Unquote.
Separates from God and thus cuts himself off from life, as EGW said, doesn’t mean that sin killed them or they killed them selves, but in real sense they were cut off from life, and thus, death is the result. But what killed them, what makes them die, is not sin or self, but an act of God, because they were rewarded with death as the wages of sin.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/23/05 05:22 PM
Tom wrote:
God is love. Love is a principle which is based on giving of oneself for others. Sin is a principle based on selfishness, isolation, which cuts self off from others.
Unquote.
I agree, God is love, and due to his love for the righteous and sinless that were redeemed by the blood of Christ, he must abolish sinners, killing them, in order sin and sinner would no longer exist in his new world.
Does the killing of God affect his love, his principle?
He would if he didn’t send Christ to save us back, for Adam’s descendants didn’t deserve to die since:
1. It is not their will to be born in sin and have a sinful nature that by default could only sinning, meanwhile Adam and Eve were created in perfection, sinless and righteous.
2. It is not their will to be born only for to die, meanwhile Adam and Eve were created to live everlasting.
Therefore, by sending Christ to the world to redeem men, God has shown his love, mercy and grace. After that, he has every legal right and could not be blamed for the death of sinners in the lake of fire.
Could God be blamed that might affect his character because he created death in the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil that caused Adam and Eve death by eating it? No, because it was their own choice.
Is this creating death by the Source of life affect his character?
No, because life and death is only a force that stays in balance until some one exercise it, the same as good and evil, which are also God creation.
Is life – good and is death – evil? Is good – good and is evil – evil?
There is no good things happen when no one is exercising it, and there would be no evil thing when no one is exercising evil. There is no life when God didn’t create it and there would be no death when God didn’t create it. He is the Creator of all things and without him nothing existed (John 1: 3).
Deuteronomy 33:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Isaiah 46:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.
But God is not the creator of sin, only he did create intelligent living being with free will choice, that might result in things that is against his will. Therefore, at the end, he must be responsible for what he had created, that is, by sending Christ to die for the world, proving his unselfish love.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/27/05 10:52 PM
Once again, Sister White teaches the truth about the wrath of God and the execution of unsaved sinners.
TM 230
The Lord is coming to execute judgment upon all who obey not the gospel. {TM 230.2}
PP 393
Thus it will be when the wrath of God shall be finally poured out. When "the Lord cometh with ten thousand of His saints, to execute judgment upon all," He will also "convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds." Jude 14, 15. Every sinner will be brought to see and acknowledge the justice of his condemnation. {PP 393.1}
GC 541
God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. {GC 541.4}
EW 52
Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the one thousand years." {EW 52.1}
GC 539-545
God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}
Let us consider what the Bible teaches further concerning the ungodly and unrepentant, whom the Universalist places in heaven as holy, happy angels. {GC 540.1}
"I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely." Revelation 21:6. This promise is only to those that thirst. None but those who feel their need of the water of life, and seek it at the loss of all things else, will be supplied. "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son." Verse 7. Here, also, conditions are specified. In order to inherit all things, we must resist and overcome sin. {GC 540.2}
The Lord declares by the prophet Isaiah: "Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him." "Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him." Isaiah 3:10, 11. "Though a sinner do evil an hundred times," says the wise man, "and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before Him: but it shall not be well with the wicked." Ecclesiastes 8:12, 13. And Paul testifies that the sinner is treasuring up unto himself "wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his deeds;" "tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that doeth evil." Romans 2:5, 6,9. {GC 540.3}
"No fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God." Ephesians 5:5, A.R.V. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." Hebrews 12:14. "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Revelation 22:14, 15. {GC 541.1}
God has given to men a declaration of His character and of His method of dealing with sin. "The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. "All the wicked will He destroy." "The transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalms 145:20; 37:38. The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion; yet all the manifestations of retributive justice will be perfectly consistent with the character of God as a merciful, long-suffering, benevolent being. {GC 541.2}
God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love… {GC 541.3}
… but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will? {GC 541.4}
… A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them… {GC 542.2}
In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom… It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3}
… But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}
Thus will be made an end of sin, with all the woe and ruin which have resulted from it. Says the psalmist: "Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Thou hast put out their name forever and ever. O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end." Psalm 9:5, 6. {GC 545.1}
GC 627
God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/27/05 11:00 PM
GC 544
They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}
Here she clearly makes a distinction between punishment and death. Clearly death is not the punishment, rather, death puts an end to the punishment phase of judgment. A dead man cannot be punished. And clearly sinners do not self-destruct in the presence of God.
In answer to the title of this thread, she wrote, "Thus will be made an end of sin, with all the woe and ruin which have resulted from it." GC 545.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/28/05 02:53 AM
Your post has too long a list of quotes to deal with all of them, but I'll discuss these four, as they are in perfect harmony with what I have been presenting.
{Quote from Mike}
TM 230
The Lord is coming to execute judgment upon all who obey not the gospel. {TM 230.2}
Those who obey not the gospel are choosing death over Christ. They separate themselves from God/Christ, who is the source of life, and hence they die. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner, but God leaves those who have rejected His mercy to reap that which they have sown.
"God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice." (DA 764)
"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown." (GC 36)
(lumping two quotes together, which both speak of the wrath of God)
{Quote from Mike}
PP 393
Thus it will be when the wrath of God shall be finally poured out. When "the Lord cometh with ten thousand of His saints, to execute judgment upon all," He will also "convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds." Jude 14, 15. Every sinner will be brought to see and acknowledge the justice of his condemnation. {PP 393.1}
EW 52
Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the one thousand years." {EW 52.1}
What is the wrath of God? I assert that it is God giving those who have rejected His mercy over to results of their choice. This is in perfect harmony with the quotes from GC 36 and DA 764 quoted above, as well as with Scripture:
"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods." (Deut 31:17, 18)
"They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city.
." (Jer. 33:5)
"For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs.
Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.
Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes." (2 Chron 29: 6, 8)
"And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.
And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight." (2 King 17:17-20)
"Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation." (Ps. 27:9)
"How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?" (Ps. 89:46)
"Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit." (Ps. 143:7)
"Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them!" (Hosea 9:12)
"The LORD was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.
And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation (wrath JB) of his anger the king and the priest.
The LORD hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast." (Lam. 2:5-7)
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them....
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions." (Rom. 1:18, 19, 24-26)
{Quote from Mike}
GC 541
God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. {GC 541.4}
Notice that God writes that the justice which God executes upon the wicked is "even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited." What does this mean? It means it is merciful. Even in God's wrath there is mercy. Even in the destruction of the wicked, we can see the beauty of God's character, which is identical to what Christ revealed.
Let's tell a deeper look at this GC quote:
God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes.
This paragraph is bringing out exactly the points I have been trying to make. It bears reading and re-reading, and careful consideration.
The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?
The part quoted by Mike is in italics. Notice how EGW highlights God's "mercy, kindness, and love" in the destruction of the wicked. Notice that God would allow them in heaven if he could.
The next couple of paragraphs I'm leaving in for context.
"Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?
Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late."
OK, now notice the conclusion:
"A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.
(GC 541-543)
Notice that God's presence makes the wicked uncomforatable. His presence to them is a consuming fire. They welcome destruction. They long to flee from God's presence.
Notice that the exclusion of the wicked is voluntary on the part of the wicked. This point is very important to understand!! God will take all those to heaven who would be happy there. God will not force the will of those who would not be happy there. He allows them to choose.
In all of this this the beauty of God's character shines. There is nothing harsh, severe or arbitrary in the destruction of the wicked; God is the same merciful, kind and loving God that He always has been!
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/28/05 02:55 AM
Tom wrote:
Tom: Sin does indeed cause death: "This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life."
Unquote.
Separates from God and thus cuts himself off from life, as EGW said, doesn’t mean that sin killed them or they killed them selves, but in real sense they were cut off from life, and thus, death is the result. But what killed them, what makes them die, is not sin or self, but an act of God, because they were rewarded with death as the wages of sin.
Tom: EGW says it is NOT an act of power on God's part; that what kills the wicked is being separated from God, who is the source of life. I'm not sure how she could have stated that it is not an act of God's power that kills them. You are stating the exact opposite of what she wrote.
Here's more of the quote:
Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16.
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe." (DA 764)
Note the following:
1) God does not destroy the wicked by an act of power.
2) The wicked reap that which they have sown.
3) They die because they cut themselves off from God, who is the source of life.
4) They receive the results of their choice.
5) God's presence is to them a consuming fire.
6) The glory of God destroys them.
7) If God had allowed the evil angels at the beginning to reap the consequences of sin, the other angels would not have understood what was happening. They would have thought the God was killing them. In order for that misunderstanding not take place, God allowed the principles of Satan's government to mature. At the end of time, when God does allow the wicked to receive the results of their choice, the universe understands that God is not killing them.
I underlined the part being spoken of in part 7. Those who are taking the view that the wicked die because God does something to kill them have not taken this underlined portion into account. The underlined text makes absolutely no sense given that way of looking at things.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/28/05 04:41 AM
Tom, the following insight must be interpreted in the context of overwhelming evidence, not the other way around, as you seem to favor: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown."
In light of everything else she wrote about the wrath of God, the punishment of sinners, and their destruction in the lake of fire, it should be obvious that she agrees with the Bible: "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all." Jude 14, 15. See also the texts Sister White cites in the quotes I posted the last few times.
The idea that God simply ceases shielding sinners from the normal consequences of sin may sound less offensive than the truth, but it still holds God responsible for doing something that causes the death of sinners. For some strange reason you seem to think that this idea vindicates God, and that the truth implicates Him, makes Him out to be arbitrary and tyrannical. I do not understand it. How is your idea any better than the one you despise? Either way, sinners die due to something God Himself does to them.
Forcing the quotes I posted to serve the idea you are advocating seems unnatural to me. I suspect the word "executioner" in your favorite quote was used in the negative sense, in the case of men caryying out the unjust orders of evil rulers. For example, "When the executioner, about to kindle the pile, stepped behind him, the martyr exclaimed: "Come forward boldly; apply the fire before my face. Had I been afraid, I should not be here." GC 114.
In fact, everytime she uses the word "executioner" it is in the negative sense. This tells me that she uses the word to denote the cruelty and injustice of corrupt rulers. Thus, when she used this same word in the context of God punishing and destroying unrepentant sinners she is clearly saying that there is nothing cruel or unjust about His "strange act". They truly deserve it. God isn't killing them without just cause and due process of law. This interpretation agrees the overwhelming weight of evidence.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/28/05 09:48 AM
quote:
Tom, the following insight must be interpreted in the context of overwhelming evidence, not the other way around, as you seem to favor: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown."
What does this mean? God really does stand toward the sinner as an execuationer of the sentance against transgression? Was this a slip of the pen?
Mike: In light of everything else she wrote about the wrath of God, the punishment of sinners, and their destruction in the lake of fire, it should be obvious that she agrees with the Bible: "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all." Jude 14, 15. See also the texts Sister White cites in the quotes I posted the last few times.
Mike: The idea that God simply ceases shielding sinners from the normal consequences of sin may sound less offensive than the truth, but it still holds God responsible for doing something that causes the death of sinners. For some strange reason you seem to think that this idea vindicates God, and that the truth implicates Him, makes Him out to be arbitrary and tyrannical.
Tom: What?!?! I don't think the truth implicates God!!!!! The truth vindicates God!!! (I need more explanation points here) In no way do I believe the truth make God out to be arbitrary and tyranical! Yuck!
Mike: I do not understand it. How is your idea any better than the one you despise? Either way, sinners die due to something God Himself does to them.
Tom: Here is "my" idea:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
Here it is again:
quote:
In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.
(DA 764)
And again;
quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.
(GC 36)
And again:
quote:
A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.
(GC 542)
quote:
The people who rejected Christ were soon to see their city and their nation destroyed. Their glory would be broken, and scattered as the dust before the wind. And what was it that destroyed the Jews? It was the rock which, had they built upon it, would have been their security. It was the goodness of God despised, the righteousness spurned, the mercy slighted. Men set themselves in opposition to God, and all that would have been their salvation was turned to their destruction. All that God ordained unto life they found to be unto death. In the Jews' crucifixion of Christ was involved the destruction of Jerusalem. The blood shed upon Calvary was the weight that sank them to ruin for this world and for the world to come. So it will be in the great final day, when judgment shall fall upon the rejecters of God's grace. Christ, their rock of offense, will then appear to them as an avenging mountain. The glory of His countenance, which to the righteous is life, will be to the wicked a consuming fire. Because of love rejected, grace despised, the sinner will be destroyed.
(DA 600)
I could quote a lot more of these. You (Mike) wrote "Tom, the following insight must be interpreted in the context of overwhelming evidence, not the other way around."
I agree with this! Have I provided enough evidence to be "overwhelming"? Much more quotes like these can be found. Here's another:
"The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character."
Notice that what characterizes God is "love, kindness and mercy," even when executing justice on the wicked.
Mike: Forcing the quotes I posted to serve the idea you are advocating seems unnatural to me.
Tom: It's not my idea. I just quoted EGW! I didn't even provide any comment, just her words. It's her idea!
Mike: I suspect the word "executioner" in your favorite quote was used in the negative sense, in the case of men caryying out the unjust orders of evil rulers. For example, "When the executioner, about to kindle the pile, stepped behind him, the martyr exclaimed: "Come forward boldly; apply the fire before my face. Had I been afraid, I should not be here." GC 114.
Tom: If you want to know how it's used, just read the chapter. It's the first chapter of The Great Controversy. She expresses the same thought over and over again. It's not an isolated statement taken out of context. It's the whole point she's making in the entire chapter.
Mike: In fact, everytime she uses the word "executioner" it is in the negative sense.
Tom: No, every time she uses the word it's in a positive sense. Over and over again she writes that God executes justice. How or why should this be viewed as "negative"? She points out the God's executing justice is in harmony with His character of "love, kindness and mercy." This is most positive!
Mike: This tells me that she uses the word to denote the cruelty and injustice of corrupt rulers. Thus, when she used this same word in the context of God punishing and destroying unrepentant sinners she is clearly saying that there is nothing cruel or unjust about His "strange act". They truly deserve it. God isn't killing them without just cause and due process of law. This interpretation agrees the overwhelming weight of evidence.
Tom: Here's what she wrote:
quote:
God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 36)
Note the following:
1) God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner.
2) God leaves the wicked to reap that which they have sown.
3) Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty than the destruction of Jerusalem.
Point 3) leads us to consider just what she said about the destruction of Jerusalem. Here's what she says:
quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the
destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. (GC 35, 36)
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/28/05 09:58 AM
quote:
The idea that God simply ceases shielding sinners from the normal consequences of sin may sound less offensive than the truth, but it still holds God responsible for doing something that causes the death of sinners. For some strange reason you seem to think that this idea vindicates God, and that the truth implicates Him, makes Him out to be arbitrary and tyrannical. I do not understand it. How is your idea any better than the one you despise? Either way, sinners die due to something God Himself does to them.
This is a very important question, so I'll consider it separately.
Your view is that God satisfies His thirst for vengeance by causing the wicked to suffer and die. My view is the following:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
Note the following points:
1) God does not destroy the wicked by an act of power.
2) The wicked reap that which they have sown.
3) They die because they cut themselves off from God, who is the source of life.
4) They receive the results of their choice.
5) God's presence is to them a consuming fire.
6) The glory of God destroys them.
Now why is this idea better than the idea that God satisfies His thirst for vengeance by tormenting the wicked with liquid fire? I'll let someone else answer that.
Posted By: D R
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/28/05 01:58 PM
Tom: your statement of "...God satisfies His thirst for vengeance by tormenting the wicked with liquid fire?" Is very "whacked!" you delve into the word but are not seeing the peace that is in it! God states that vengance is His, not ours! This is because He is PERFECT and is able to cleanse this mess in a PERFECT way. There is no need for us to "humanize" God, and this is what I read from your posts.
-Anyone else agree or disagree with my above statements?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/28/05 10:20 PM
Tom, I notice you didn't bother posting the SOP quotes where she plainly says God punishes the unsaved and then destroys them with fire and brimstone in the lake of fire. Instead, the view you have adopted insists that her statements must be interpreted symbolically, not literally. You seem to be cool with the idea that sinners simply melt down in the presence of God's glory. But, again, how is this less offensive to you?
Richard, in all fairness to Tom, I am the one who posted God satisfies His thirst for vengeance and justice by punishing and destroying the sinners, who despised and rejected the blood of Jesus, in the lake of fire. Paul also makes this point very clear, as well as Sister White. Considering everything Jesus has done to save us, anyone who despises and rejects Him are worthy of the most awful punishment and death. Of course, God is not willing that any should perish, but when the limits of His mercy are exhausted ....
Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
1SM 193
He lets him [certain slaves] be as though he had not been; while the master has to suffer the seven last plagues, and then come up in the second resurrection, and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the wrath of God will be appeased. {1SM 193.1}
SR 388
The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death--a death from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {SR 388.1}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/30/05 11:08 AM
quote:
Tom, I notice you didn't bother posting the SOP quotes where she plainly says God punishes the unsaved and then destroys them with fire and brimstone in the lake of fire.
You already posted them. Why should I repost them? I was addressing what the things she wrote meant by quoting other statements of hers which go into these things in much greater deatil. For example, the entire first chapter of the Great Controversy deals with this theme, from which I quoted several paragraphs.
quote:
Instead, the view you have adopted insists that her statements must be interpreted symbolically, not literally.
The view "I" adopted from from her own words! Shouldn't she be allowed to explain what she meant? When she devotes entire chapters to a them, shouldn't they be considered?
quote:
You seem to be cool with the idea that sinners simply melt down in the presence of God's glory. But, again, how is this less offensive to you?
The question as to why my view is less offensive to me than yours is a very good one Mike, but I'm frankly surprised after the many, many posts we've had you don't know the answer to this question.
Here's my view:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
Note the following points:
1) God does not destroy the wicked by an act of power.
2) The wicked reap that which they have sown.
3) They die because they cut themselves off from God, who is the source of life.
4) They receive the results of their choice.
5) God's presence is to them a consuming fire.
6) The glory of God destroys them.
In my view, God exhibits love, mercy and kindness in judgment, just as in everything else He does. In your view, He doesn't.
In my view, God is not arbitrary (i.e., the wicked do not die because of God's acting on the sole basis of individual discretion, but they die because of what they themselves choose and do). In your view, He is arbitrary (there is no intrinsic reason that the wicked should die, other than God's being blood-thirsy)
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 01/31/05 06:00 PM
I have just arrived from my vacation, and haven't read this discussion, or any other about this subject, but would like to ask how the expressions "death sentence" and "death penalty", used by Ellen White, are interpreted according to the alternative view.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/01/05 12:32 AM
Penatly may be defined as: "the disadvantage or painful consequences of an action or condition."
God warned that the consequences of sin would be death. This may be thought of as a "death penalty" or "death sentence." The soul that sins shall die.
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
If God had allowed Satan and his host to have received the consequences of sin immediately, those watching would have been subjected to doubt as to whether those who had died had died because of sin or because God was angry at them for rebelling against Him. Through Christ God was able to show what the consequences of sin are. Christ suffered the "death sentence"; He suffered the "death penalty," but there was not positive action on God's part -- on the contrary, God suffered with His Son. God was "crucified with Christ." As Paul puts is, Christ was "delivered for our trespasses." (Rom. 4:25)
Posted By: Charity
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/01/05 04:24 AM
It's not easy to present the character of God in a balanced light regarding His wrath. I agree with a lot of what Tom is saying, but I'm also uncomfortable with some of the emphasis.
While sinners reap what they sow, we have to understand that they are not merely reaping in a vacuum. They are reaping the results of transgressing the law of the King. The harvest they reap therefore is because God, for the good of the universe, upholds and enforces His royal law personally. It’s important to not see the consequences of sin as a kind of evolutionary, inevitable process. Transgression is only transgression where the law of a person, God is violated. And the personal element means we all personally answer to God himself. This is a large part of the wrath of God I think – the terrible realization that dawns on the wicked that they stand naked and condemned personally before God whose law they have scorned.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/01/05 07:20 AM
Thank you for your input Mark.
Doesn't it come down to the question of whether or not sin is really lethal? Is sin able to kill of itself? Or is it not really so bad, and it needs help?
When God warned, "In the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die" did God really mean that, or did He mean, "You will be executed if you eat of that fruit"?
I have made a point from the DA 764 that hasn't been dealt with by anybody. Here's the quote, and then I'll make the point again:
quote:
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
OK, here's the point. When it says that the angels did not understand this, what is it that they did not understand? From the previous paragraph, we get the answer:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
Now what does this paragraph tell us? It tells us:
1) It is not an arbitrary act of power that destroys the wicked.
2) They reap that which they sow.
3) The place themselves so out of harmony with God that His presence is to them a consuming fire.
4) The glory of God destroys them.
Now when EGW points out that the watching angels did not understand this, what did they underand? Or rather, what would they have understood had God allowed the wicked to be destroyed immediately by His glory, if He had immediately allowed them to reap that which they had sown?
If the reason the wicked dies is because God kills them, then what EGW wrote makes absolutely no sense. If this is what God does, then the evil seeds of doubt would remain just as much after the destruction of the wicked when it actually happens as it would had God allowed it to happen earlier.
There has to be something *different* about God's allowing it to happen earlier, when it would have spawned new evil doubts, and God's allowing things to develop first. There is something very different, and EGW explains exactly what it is in the chapter.
The thing that is different if Christ's death. Christ had to die *before* the wicked are destroyed, in order for God to avoid the problem that would have come up had He not waited (creating new seeds of doubt).
Now how does Christ's death solve God's problem? Why is it that the wicked can be destroyed after Christ's death without evil seeds of doubt arising?
The reason is because Christ's death showed that sin *is* lethal. All the unfallen beings understand this "now". "Now" there is no more danger that when the wicked are destroyed that there destruction will be understood.
Satan's accusation was that God was lying when He said that sin results in death. God has proven that He was telling the truth. The death of Christ provided a way by which sin can be eliminated without risking that it would pop up again.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/01/05 03:02 PM
Tom,
Ellen White says:
“In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. ... The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor.” Last Day Events, 241.
Notice that she does not refer to natural laws, but to laws of a kingdom or government, and it makes no sense to speak in natural results as punishment for judicial laws. Would it make sense to say that a law whose transgression brings no natural results has no force?
The laws which constitute the foundation of any given government are not natural laws. The decalogue is the foundation of God's government, not a natural law. The transgression of the laws of your country brings an imposed punishment. You knew what the punishment was. Then, of course, when you go ahead, break these laws, and incur the punishment, you are just reaping what you sowed. But this doesn't change the fact that the punishment is imposed.
God’s wrath against sin kills sinners - the anguish, horror and suffering felt by the sinner are unbearable and inevitably lead to death. On the other hand, it is true that God's wrath can be restrained _ it has been restrained till now, and it could be restrained for ever. God has to choose to exercise His wrath in order that the sinner dies.
The mere manifestation of God's glory can kill all humans in a moment (like in the second coming), but in the second death some will take a longer time to die, others a shorter time, according to their sentence (which will be decided during the millennium). The fact that there will be a difference in the duration of the punishment, definitely characterizes it as an imposed punishment, and not as a natural consequence. Besides, I’m not sure the mere manifestation of God's physical glory kills fallen angels. Satan and his angels still remained some time in the presence of God's glory after their sin (before being cast out from heaven), and they won't die at the second coming. Satan will die only when God chooses to manifest His terrible wrath against sin, and Satan feels in his soul unbearable anguish, horror and mental suffering. It is this that will inevitably result in his death. And nothing of this seems just "natural" to me.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/01/05 08:20 PM
Rose: Notice that she does not refer to natural laws, but to laws of a kingdom or government, and it makes no sense to speak in natural results as punishment for judicial laws. Would it make sense to say that a law whose transgression brings no natural results has no force?
Tom: I think yours in an excellent question. In answer to your question, I think the answer is yes, it does make sense, and it makes sense for the reason I explained in the post above yours.
If God had destroyed the wicked too soon, what was happening would have been misunderstood. It would have appeared that God was killing the wicked arbitrarily as an act of power, rather than it being the result of His glory interacting with sin.
Here's another statement from the Spirit of Prophesy explaining what happens when sin comes in contact with God:
quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)
This also describes it:
quote:
It will be a dreadful death; for they will have to feel the agony that Christ felt upon the cross to purchase for them the redemption which they have refused. (1T 124)
Rose: The laws which constitute the foundation of any given government are not natural laws. The decalogue is the foundation of God's government, not a natural law. The transgression of the laws of your country brings an imposed punishment. You knew what the punishment was. Then, of course, when you go ahead, break these laws, and incur the punishment, you are just reaping what you sowed. But this doesn't change the fact that the punishment is imposed.
God’s wrath against sin kills sinners - the anguish, horror and suffering felt by the sinner are unbearable and inevitably lead to death. On the other hand, it is true that God's wrath can be restrained _ it has been restrained till now, and it could be restrained for ever. God has to choose to exercise His wrath in order that the sinner dies.
Tom: From the 1T quote above, it can be seen that the death the wicked die is the death that Christ died. Now what was God's part in Christ's death? Rom. 4:25 tells us that God "delivered up Christ for our offenses." It is not that God was killing Christ, but God gave Him up to suffer the consequences of sin.
quote:
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isa. 53:4-6
Note that we esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God *but* He was wounded for our transgressions. What was God's part in this? He "laid on Him the iniquity of us all." That was enough! We see the terrible consequences of sin in Christ's death.
It is true that God's wrath is executed upon the wicked, but what does that mean? In Scripture, we see that God's wrath is executed on the wicked when He gives them over to the consequences of their choices. The following are texts which bring this out: Deut 31:17, 18; Jer. 33:5; 2 Chron 29:6, 8; 2 Kings 17:17-20; Ps. 27:9; Ps. 89:46; Ps. 143:7; Hosea 9:12; Lam. 2:5-7; Rom. 1:18-26. I have quoted the texts earlier on this thread, so I won't requote them here to keep the length of this post down, but will point out that in the last reference (Rom. 1) it starts out saying that the wrath of God is revealed from heaven in giving up the wicked; 3 times it points out that God "gave them up." This "giving up" is the same Greek word used in Rom. 4:25 when it says that God "delivered" up Jesus. God will give up the wicked in the end, to suffer the consequences of their sin. This is God's wrath.
Please note in the DA 764 quote that EGW specifically points out the wicked are not destroyed by an abritary act of power. If the only reason the wicked are destroyed is because of something God does to them, then that is an arbitrary act of power, which goes exactly against the whole point EGW is making in the whole chapter.
Rose: The mere manifestation of God's glory can kill all humans in a moment (like in the second coming), but in the second death some will take a longer time to die, others a shorter time, according to their sentence (which will be decided during the millennium). The fact that there will be a difference in the duration of the punishment, definitely characterizes it as an imposed punishment, and not as a natural consequence.
Tom: Why should that be the case? Let's consider gravity as an example. The higher you jump from, the greater your penalty.
If sin causes suffering, then the more sin one has, the more pain. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us the "dreadful death" of the wicked will be that which Christ experienced. His agony was so great because all the sin of the world was laid on Him. The suffering of those who suffer for their own sins will be proportionate to the sin which they have.
Rose: Besides, I’m not sure the mere manifestation of God's physical glory kills fallen angels. Satan and his angels still remained some time in the presence of God's glory after their sin (before being cast out from heaven), and they won't die at the second coming. Satan will die only when God chooses to manifest His terrible wrath against sin, and Satan feels in his soul unbearable anguish, horror and mental suffering. It is this that will inevitably result in his death. And nothing of this seems just "natural" to me.
Tom: DA 764 points out exactly what will happen, and why. It points out that the glory of God destroys the wicked, and that had He allowed this to happen before Christ's death it would have been misunderstood.
You did not address the argument I made in the post previous to yours. Please note the questions I asked. Why would the destruction of the wicked have resulted in an evil seed of doubt had it occured to soon? Why does Christ's death make it so the wicked can be destroyed without risking that sin will arise again? These are very important questions to understand.
I would invite you to read carefully the post immediately above yours, and to consider the questions and explanations made there. I await your comments.
Posted By: Charity
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/02/05 04:24 AM
Tom, the quote Rose provided is a good counterbalance and shows the other side of the coin to what you’re saying. God allowed sin to develop so all could see its results and could see His mercy and forbearance in allowing the demonstration to take place. But it is God who enforces His law not sin itself. Death is the penalty that God has imposed for sin. The penalty for sin is not death merely because of the nature of sin or by definition. The penalty is death primarily because God knew from the beginning that this is the only appropriate penalty for unrepentant spirits, whether men, angels or other beings. Secondarily, it is death because that is the way the Creator made things work. In both cases, the reasons are directly attributed to God – first as King and second as Creator. So I would say there is no scriptural reason to suggest that sin is lethal of itself. God made provision for the possibility of sin from the beginning. From the beginning death has been the Divine penalty for sin. He made the universe to work this way for our good.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/02/05 08:35 AM
Mark: Tom, the quote Rose provided is a good counterbalance and shows the other side of the coin to what you’re saying.
Tom: I think there's only one side. Sin results in death. That's what God has been saying all along. He warned Adam and Eve, and Satan said He was lying.
Mark: God allowed sin to develop so all could see its results and could see His mercy and forbearance in allowing the demonstration to take place.
Tom: And what are its results? It is not death? Isn't that what God was allowing us and the unfallen beings to see? Isn't that what we see on the cross?
Mark: But it is God who enforces His law not sin itself.
Tom: Sin results in death. The sting of death is sin. You can't have sin without death. It's impossible. There's no need for it to be "enforced" any more than that God "enforces" the law that knowing God is life eternal.
Mark: Death is the penalty that God has imposed for sin.
Tom: It's not an "imposed" penalty. It's a law. It's the law of sin and death. The Spirit of Prophesy carefully explained it. The sinner cuts himself off from God who is the source of life and thus dies. That's just what she says. God gives the wicked over to the result of their choice, which is death. All they that hate Christ love death.
Mark: The penalty for sin is not death merely because of the nature of sin or by definition. The penalty is death primarily because God knew from the beginning that this is the only appropriate penalty for unrepentant spirits, whether men, angels or other beings. Secondarily, it is death because that is the way the Creator made things work. In both cases, the reasons are directly attributed to God – first as King and second as Creator.
Tom: What are you basing this argument from? How does it address the questions I raised about 3 posts ago? Please re-read that post and make an attempt to answer it. So far nobody has even made an attempt to deal with the issues raised in that post. (the one asking why God had to wait until after the death of Christ for the wicked to be destroyed because otherwise an evil seed of doubt would have remained). I just can't see how the paradigm Roseangela is suggesting fits into what EGW is saying there.
Mark: So I would say there is no scriptural reason to suggest that sin is lethal of itself. God made provision for the possibility of sin from the beginning. From the beginning death has been the Divine penalty for sin. He made the universe to work this way for our good.
Tom: "The sting of death is sin." "The wages of sin is death." "In the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die." "The soul that sins shall die." All of these statements state that sin is lethal. There's no reason *not* to think that sin is lethal. That is sin is lethal was demonstrated conclusively at the cross. The only ones in the whole universe that have any doubt about this reside on this planet.
It is because sin has been demonstrated to be lethal that God can safely act to bring about its end. That is what the paragraph in DA which discusses this is all about. I'll requote it here:
quote:
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. DA 764
If God imposes an arbitrary penalty, then it makes no sense for EGW to say that "it would not have been apparent that this was the inevitable result of sin." It wouldn't have been apparent because it wouldn't ahve been the case! It wouldn't have been "inevitable." It's not "inevitable" if the only reason it happens is because God does something. That's not "inevitable." That's avoidable. God could simply choose not to do that thing. But God *can't* choose not to do this thing because death is wrapped up in sin. Sin kills.
Posted By: Charity
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/02/05 12:51 PM
We agree that the penalty of sin is not arbitrary. The penalty is just.
Death from sin is 'inevitable' because this is the just penalty and the way God created the universe to work. Transgression brings death inevitably because 1) its the just penalty of God and 2) no created intellegence can survive without the sustaining lifeforce of God. It is true that transgression severs that connection, but again, that is the way God made us - creatures who only borrow life, but do not have it in themselves.
If Adam had eaten of the tree of life after sinning, he might still be alive today. The reason that the tree of life needed to be gaurded was that God did not want to immortalize sin. If sin was lethal in itself, it would not have been necessary to guard the tree of life.
Posted By: Charity
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/02/05 01:00 PM
This makes the forbearance of God glorious. God is the only self-existent being. All other existence is borrowed. We have to wonder at the patience of a God who would continue to sustain the life of the most malignant rebel, Lucifer, at such a cost to Himself, initially in order to save the lives of the unfallen beings, and now in order to save us.
This is not to say that Satan has any positive role in our salvation. But as we overcome his temptations by faith we are changed and restored to ever closer fellowship with God.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/02/05 03:53 PM
Tom,
Why is death the inevitable result of sin? Completing what Mark said, I would say that it is because God and sin can’t coexist. God must destroy sin, therefore it is inevitable that those who cling to it must die. What happened at the beginning of sin was that the inhabitants of the universe did not know if the transgression of God’s law was something bad, as God was saying, or something good, as Satan was saying. Therefore, before He could put an end to sin, God had to tolerate its existence for a time, until its evil nature was clearly revealed.
God has appointed a day when He will destroy sin. In order to accomplish that, He must destroy sinners, because sinners are identified with sin. Therefore, the death of sinners is not a natural consequence, but the direct result of God’s intervention.
Just one question: Why wouldn’t God be considered cruel for drowning the inhabitants of the world but would be considered cruel for burning the inhabitants of the world?
The text I quoted in my last post goes on to say:
"God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice."--12 MR 208,209.
"Like the waters of the Flood the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable." GC 543
[ February 02, 2005, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Rosangela ]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/02/05 06:23 PM
God promised life and death based on obedience or disobedience. He was talking about death by execution. Sin does not kill sinners. God does. Jesus did not die the second death. He tasted and consumed it. He conquered it on the cross. Satan dies the second death of the saved. If God had immediately executed Satan the loyal angels would not have understood the justice and severity. But after observing Satan at the cross, they are eager for him to pay for his sins. The day the Devil expires in the lake of fire there will be rejoicing among the angels. God will stand vindicated. What the SOP says about sin and death makes sense when taken in context. She does not contradict herself.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/03/05 12:42 AM
Tom: Rose, thank you for making an attempt to deal with the questions I asked! I can't see that Mike or Mark made an effort to do so. If either one did, please excuse my missing it, and please make it more clear how you are doing so.
Rose: Tom,
Why is death the inevitable result of sin? Completing what Mark said, I would say that it is because God and sin can’t coexist.
Tom: OK. I'm with you here. God and sin can't coexist. As the SOP puts is, "to sin, wherever it is found, God is consuming fire." This begs the question of how it is that Satan was able to continue to exist. It must be because God did something to prevent the natural occurence of He, as a consuming fire, to consume the sin which was in Satan, wouldn't you agree?
Rose: God must destroy sin, therefore it is inevitable that those who cling to it must die.
Tom: It's not that God *must* consume sin, but God *does* consume sin. Perhaps that's what you meant, I'm not sure. What I'm differenciating between is:
1) God's nature is such that He must make the decision to destroy sin (by some extraneous act foreign to Him simply being Himself).
2) God's nature is such that He consumes sin.
The second point is the correct one: "To sin wherever it is found, God *is* a consuming fire."
Rose: What happened at the beginning of sin was that the inhabitants of the universe did not know if the transgression of God’s law was something bad, as God was saying, or something good, as Satan was saying. Therefore, before He could put an end to sin, God had to tolerate its existence for a time, until its evil nature was clearly revealed.
Tom: That's not what was said! Here's what was said:
quote:
"This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
What is "this"? "This" is that the wicked have place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. This is the vital point! "This" has nothing to do with whether or not the law of God is good. It has to do with the fact that the wicked have so wrecked themselves by sin that God's glory consumes them. Had God allowed this to happen immediately, it would have appeared to the onlookers that God was executing them, and this would have resulted in an evil seed of doubt. By waiting until after the death of Jesus, which shows the result of sin is death, God can safely allow the wicked to be consumed without the evil seed of doubt arising.
Rose: God has appointed a day when He will destroy sin. In order to accomplish that, He must destroy sinners, because sinners are identified with sin. Therefore, the death of sinners is not a natural consequence, but the direct result of God’s intervention.
Tom: This is the whole point of this thread. What you're suggesting doesn't work. Sin originated in heaven, in the very presence of God, in a sinless being. This shows that simply having an environment with no sinners is not sufficient. *Sin* must be dealt with in a way that it will not arise again. God did this by sending Jesus Christ, who answers the accusations of Satan involved in the Great Controversy. He showed that Satan's accusations were false. After those accusations had been proven false, it would be safe to destroy Satan.
One of the accusations of Satan was that sin does not cause death. If God executed him and his host, that so far from disproving that claim, would have shown that Satan was right. It tood the death of Jesus to establish that fact.
Rose: Just one question: Why wouldn’t God be considered cruel for drowning the inhabitants of the world but would be considered cruel for burning the inhabitants of the world?
Tom: This is a whole another issue, which involves the first death rather than the second. You could raise it in a separate thread if you wish.
Rose: The text I quoted in my last post goes on to say:
"God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice."--12 MR 208,209.
"Like the waters of the Flood the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable." GC 543
Tom: EGW points out that the way God deals with the wicked using the principles of love, mercy and kindness. She says the exclusion of the wicked is voluntary with themselves and God accepts their choice. We must be careful to keep in mind that God's character in the judgment is consistent with what we see everywhere else in Scripture.
I appreciate your at least referencing what I quoted but respectfully suggest that you have not really considered the issues. Here are in particular two questions that need to be answered:
1) Why was it that the angels did not understand that meant that God could not allow Satan and his host to be destroyed earlier? (Please note the context in answering this -- it's dealing with the destruction of the wicked)
2) Why does God's waiting until after Christ has died allow the wicked to be destroyed without endangering the safety of the universe?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/03/05 12:46 AM
Mike, please address my post of Jan. 31 9:20PM. It has specific points and questions to be considered.
Thank you.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/03/05 12:57 AM
Mark: We agree that the penalty of sin is not arbitrary. The penalty is just.
Tom: The penalty of sin is arbitrary if it does not flow from a law but is rather an act of power from God. The Spirit of Prophesy specifically says it is *NOT* an arbitrary act of power.
Calling a rose by any other name doesn't make it not a rose. In other words, if you describe a process that is arbitrary, simply saying the words "this is not arbitrary" does not make it not arbitrary.
Mark: Death from sin is 'inevitable' because this is the just penalty and the way God created the universe to work. Transgression brings death inevitably because 1) its the just penalty of God and 2) no created intellegence can survive without the sustaining lifeforce of God. It is true that transgression severs that connection, but again, that is the way God made us - creatures who only borrow life, but do not have it in themselves.
Tom: Of course it's the way God made us. What does this have to do with the matter? Death is the inevitable result of sin because sin results in death. That's what "the sting of death is sin" means. We see this truth in Christ. He was made to be sin for us, and He suffered the death that the wicked must suffer.
quote:
It will be a dreadful death; for they will have to feel the agony that Christ felt upon the cross to purchase for them the redemption which they have refused. 1T 124
Mark: If Adam had eaten of the tree of life after sinning, he might still be alive today. The reason that the tree of life needed to be gaurded was that God did not want to immortalize sin. If sin was lethal in itself, it would not have been necessary to guard the tree of life.
Tom: The tree of life yields its fruit every month. It's not simply eaten of one time.
The tree of life has to do with reviving vital force. God did not wish for this to happen after Adam and Eve sinned. He wanted their vital force to wind down, and it was in mercy that He did this. This has nothing to do with sin being lethal. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that "to sin wherever it is found, God is a consuming fire." This alone proves the lethality of sin.
I agree completely with your other post.
I would invite you as well to consider and respond to my post of Jan. 1/31 9:20PM. The main question I would like responded to is this one: "At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin."
What does this mean?
Posted By: Charity
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/03/05 05:46 AM
Inevitable death means that it is sure to happen. The question is 'why'?
The text you've been quoting points us to the law doesn't it:
'The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.' I Cor. 15:56
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/03/05 06:20 AM
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
WHY?
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
It is SIN that uses the law unlawfully to kill.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/03/05 06:21 AM
The law is a transcript of God's character. Sin is the antithesis of the law, which is to say that which is contrary to God's character. It is to be unlike Him. Notice from the SOP quote:
"By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire."
This is saying the same thing, that "the sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law"?
The problem with the view that God kills the wicked by doing something apart from just being Himself is that the statement says that the death from sin is "inevitable." If it's only inevitable because God kills the wicked, that's just seconding Satan's argument. He has accused God of being arbitrary, and this would indeed be arbitrary.
The other problem is that it says that the angels did not understand that the wicked would reap that which they had sown, the glory of God consuming them? What would they have understood instead?
What's the angel's misunderstanding? What's the true understanding?
I have an answer to this. Here it is. The angel's would have understood:
1) God executed the wicked.
What they should understand is:
2) The wicked reap that which they have sown, and the glory of God destroys them.
They would have mistaken what God had allowed as something God was arbitrarily doing. This would have allowed an evil seed of doubt to arise. This is exactly what the paragraphs are saying! Look:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life...God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.
Notice it says, "a doubt of God's goodness would have remained." Why? What leads to this doubt? What were the angels in danger of misunderstanding?
Posted By: Charity
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/03/05 01:07 PM
The angels would not have seen the results of sin - that it causes death, pain and great woe. Not seeing that some would have been tempted to doubt the wisdom and love of God in slaying Satan.
Regarding the tree of life, your observation about the tree of life yielding twelve kinds of fruit, - possibly a different one each month; possibly twelve kinds each month, - and that it will be consumed repeatedly is reasonable. In Is 66 I think we’re told that the nations will go up to worship monthly. So the tree will likely be eaten repeatedly, possibly monthly.
However, the tree of life was guarded by angels to prevent the immortalization of sin. It likely IS necessary to eat the fruit of the tree repeatedly, but the tree is nevertheless capable of immortalizing sinners. Does that not teach us something about the nature of sin, the limits of it and the ultimate sovereignty of God?
That is the key issue in all of this. Sin looses its personal nature, and the fact that the transgressor is in rebellion against a personal God is eclipsed, when sin is viewed as having a fatalistic outcome. This view strips God of His personal moral authority.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/03/05 08:00 PM
Tom,
This is how I see the subject. If by approaching me you know that you will cause my death, you are killing me, no matter how you try to slice it. The use of euphemisms to describe the process won’t change the fact. By bringing sinners in contact with His glory, God is deliberately choosing to deprive them of life. As He has kept sinners alive for 6000 years in a restricted place of His universe without consuming them, He could continue to do so for ever. Although God
is a consuming fire to sin, He has control over His own attributes, and as He made the decision to not consume sin initially, He will make the decision to destroy it finally.
"Today men have almost filled the cup of their iniquity. The Lord does not execute the death penalty on the transgressors of His law until they have heard the warning and have been given opportunity to see the fallacy of the doctrines they believe. How wonderful is His forbearance and patience! He is putting a constraint on His own attributes. Omnipotence is exerted over Omnipotence." (18MR 187)
You said:
quote:
"This" has nothing to do with whether or not the law of God is good. It has to do with the fact that the wicked have so wrecked themselves by sin that God's glory consumes them. Had God allowed this to happen immediately, it would have appeared to the onlookers that God was executing them, and this would have resulted in an evil seed of doubt.
Other texts can give us an ampler view of the subject:
“From the first the great controversy had been upon the law of God. Satan had sought to prove that God was unjust, that His law was faulty, and the good of the universe required it to be changed. In attacking the law he aimed to overthrow the authority of its Author” (PP 69).
“Satan resolved to make an effort to overthrow the government of God, and set up a kingdom of his own. … He complained of the supposed defects in the management of heavenly things, and sought to fill the minds of the angels with his disaffection. ... If he could not defend himself, he must accuse, in order to appear just and righteous, and to make God appear arbitrary and exacting. ... God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by so doing he would have given a precedent for the exercise of force. All the compelling power is found only under Satan's government. ... In the councils of heaven it was decided that principles must be acted upon that would not at once destroy Satan's power; for it was God's purpose to place things upon an eternal basis of security. Time must be given for Satan to develop the principles which were the foundation of his government. The heavenly universe must see worked out the principles which Satan declared were superior to God's principles. God's order must be contrasted with Satan's order. The corrupting principles of Satan's rule must be revealed. The principles of righteousness expressed in God's law must be demonstrated as unchangeable, perfect, eternal. (RH, September 7, 1897)
If God had destroyed Satan at first, this would have made Him appear to be arbitrary and exacting. However, after the cross, after Satan murdered the Son of God, the principles of Satan's government were amply demonstrated, and now, when God does destroy sin and sinners, it will be seen that He will do that not because He is arbitrary, but “for the good of His subjects and for their safety” (12 MR 208). “It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of his grace” (GC 543).
“The unfathomable love of God for the human race in giving his Son to die for them, was made manifest. Christ was revealed in all his self-sacrificing love and purity. When the justice of God was expressed in judicial sentence, declaring the final disposition of Satan, that he should be utterly consumed with all those who ranked under his banner, all heaven rang with hallelujahs” (The Present Truth, February 18, 1886).
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/03/05 10:18 PM
Mark: The angels would not have seen the results of sin - that it causes death, pain and great woe. Not seeing that some would have been tempted to doubt the wisdom and love of God in slaying Satan.
Tom: What you're saying here to me appears to be entirely reasonable, and I'll restate it in my own words to confirm I'm understanding you correctly.
If God had not allowed sin to bear its fruit, and God had preemptively destroyed Satan, then it would not have been clear that sin was a bad thing, and God's destruction of Satan would have been misunderstood.
OK, that's a valid point. However, it's not addressing the context of what EGW is saying. She says:
1) The destruction of the wicked is:
a) Not an arbitrary act of power of God
b) Caused by the wicked separating themselves from God, the source of life
c) A result of what the wicked have sown
d) A result of the wicked so placing themselves out of harmony with God that His presence becomes to them a consuming fire
It is in regards to *these points* that EGW says, "the angels did not immediately understand this."
We need to understand what "this" is. This is what I laid out. That's what is in the paragraph immediately above where EGW says, "The angels did not understand this."
The evil seed of doubt would have arisen because the act of destroying the wicked would have been understand along different lines than what EGW laid out in the previous paragraph. That's the clear intent of what she wrote.
Mark: Regarding the tree of life, your observation about the tree of life yielding twelve kinds of fruit, - possibly a different one each month; possibly twelve kinds each month, - and that it will be consumed repeatedly is reasonable. In Is 66 I think we’re told that the nations will go up to worship monthly. So the tree will likely be eaten repeatedly, possibly monthly.
However, the tree of life was guarded by angels to prevent the immortalization of sin. It likely IS necessary to eat the fruit of the tree repeatedly, but the tree is nevertheless capable of immortalizing sinners. Does that not teach us something about the nature of sin, the limits of it and the ultimate sovereignty of God?
Tom: Man was created with a certain amount of vital force, 20 times what we have now I think EGW says somewhere. It was God's intent that this vital force be diminished so that man could die (the first death). God did this in mercy.
This is how I understand the issue of God's not allowing man to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It shows in principle that God did not want to immortalize sin, but it is IMO absurd to suggest that simply by the fact of eating that tree that Adam and Eve would have lived forever when every heart beat comes only by God's specific action. God is not just the Creator but Sustainer. If he didn't want them to continue living, He could just stop sustaining them. He is not bound by fruit they may have eaten.
Mark: That is the key issue in all of this. Sin looses its personal nature, and the fact that the transgressor is in rebellion against a personal God is eclipsed, when sin is viewed as having a fatalistic outcome. This view strips God of His personal moral authority.
Tom: I don't see this at all. Please expand this thought. It sounds interesting.
You wrote yourself that sin results in "death, pain and great woe." Does it result in pain only because God visits pain upon people? Does it result in "great woe" only because God does something to make people suffer? Or does sin in and of itself result in pain and great woe? Does the fact that sin results in pain lessen God's moral authority in any way? Does is make sin not personal? I'm not following your thought Mark.
If pain can result from sin as a result, why not death? Especially when it leads people to separate themselves from God, the source of life, and makes them out of harmony with God. Do people inherently have life in themselves? If not, wouldn't cutting oneself off from God necessarily result in death?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/03/05 11:23 PM
Tom: Before responding to Rosangela's post, I would like to thank each of you that have been dialoging with me. Even if we are not seeing eye to eye on this, discussing it is very helpful. Also I have appreciated the tone. Although there has been a spirited discussion, the sharpness has been directed towards the points being discussed, and not a personal level, which is great.
Rosangela: Tom,
This is how I see the subject. If by approaching me you know that you will cause my death, you are killing me, no matter how you try to slice it. The use of euphemisms to describe the process won’t change the fact.
Tom: Why is it important to look at the desctruction of the wicked as God killing them? Christ says, "All they that hate me, love death." (love here meaning "choose"). Why can't we look at it as the wicked choosing death, and God in mercy honoring their choice? After all, that's what EGW says in GC 541 (Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.)
Rosangela: By bringing sinners in contact with His glory, God is deliberately choosing to deprive them of life. As He has kept sinners alive for 6000 years in a restricted place of His universe without consuming them, He could continue to do so for ever. Although God is a consuming fire to sin, He has control over His own attributes, and as He made the decision to not consume sin initially, He will make the decision to destroy it finally.
Tom: I agree with this completely. The point is that God has been actively doing something to prevent sinners from not being consumed. God quits doing that, and they are consumed.
I liked the way you put this: "Although God is a consuming fire to sin, He has control over His own attributes, and as He made the decision to not consume sin initially, He will make the decision to destroy it finally." Very well put!
Rosangela: You said:
quote:"This" has nothing to do with whether or not the law of God is good. It has to do with the fact that the wicked have so wrecked themselves by sin that God's glory consumes them. Had God allowed this to happen immediately, it would have appeared to the onlookers that God was executing them, and this would have resulted in an evil seed of doubt.
Tom: Whoa! I'm talking about a specific "this". It's this "this" that I'm talking about:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
"This" has a specific reference here, which is to what she wrote in the preceeding paragraph.
Rosangela: Other texts can give us an ampler view of the subject:
“From the first the great controversy had been upon the law of God. Satan had sought to prove that God was unjust, that His law was faulty, and the good of the universe required it to be changed. In attacking the law he aimed to overthrow the authority of its Author” (PP 69).
“Satan resolved to make an effort to overthrow the government of God, and set up a kingdom of his own. … He complained of the supposed defects in the management of heavenly things, and sought to fill the minds of the angels with his disaffection. ... If he could not defend himself, he must accuse, in order to appear just and righteous, and to make God appear arbitrary and exacting. ... God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by so doing he would have given a precedent for the exercise of force. All the compelling power is found only under Satan's government. ... In the councils of heaven it was decided that principles must be acted upon that would not at once destroy Satan's power; for it was God's purpose to place things upon an eternal basis of security. Time must be given for Satan to develop the principles which were the foundation of his government. The heavenly universe must see worked out the principles which Satan declared were superior to God's principles. God's order must be contrasted with Satan's order. The corrupting principles of Satan's rule must be revealed. The principles of righteousness expressed in God's law must be demonstrated as unchangeable, perfect, eternal. (RH, September 7, 1897)
Tom: This is the same thing she's talking about in the chapter in question, "It Is Finished." In fact places are word for word the same. However, it is not dealing with the "this" which was quoted above, which is dealing with the destruction of the wicked.
It is certainly true that had God destroyed Satan at the beginning that it would not have been clear to the unfallen beings what the principles of Satan's government were. The fact that this is true does not mean that it is not *also* true that had God allowed Satan and his hosts to reap the full result of their sin that they would not have understood "this" (which is the first paragraph quoted above in DA 764).
Rosangela: If God had destroyed Satan at first, this would have made Him appear to be arbitrary and exacting. However, after the cross, after Satan murdered the Son of God, the principles of Satan's government were amply demonstrated, and now, when God does destroy sin and sinners, it will be seen that He will do that not because He is arbitrary, but “for the good of His subjects and for their safety” (12 MR 208). “It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of his grace” (GC 543).
Tom: I agree with this statement completely. It is well put, and a good and valid point. However, it doesn't address "this," which is that Satan and his hosts have places themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire so that His glory will destroy them.
Rosangela:
“The unfathomable love of God for the human race in giving his Son to die for them, was made manifest. Christ was revealed in all his self-sacrificing love and purity. When the justice of God was expressed in judicial sentence, declaring the final disposition of Satan, that he should be utterly consumed with all those who ranked under his banner, all heaven rang with hallelujahs” (The Present Truth, February 18, 1886).
Tom: This seems to be saying in essence what Rev. 6:9-11 says:
"9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
I see both this and the EGW quote being in harmony with what I have been presenting. All those who have sided with God will be glad when sin is no more. That is because they recognize the pain that sin causes to God, and what a terrible thing sin is:
quote:
Those who think of the result of hastening or hindering the gospel think of it in relation to themselves and to the world. Few think of its relation to God. Few give thought to the suffering that sin has caused our Creator. All heaven suffered in Christ's agony; but that suffering did not begin or end with His manifestation in humanity. The cross is a revelation to our dull senses of the pain that, from its very inception, sin has brought to the heart of God. Every departure from the right, every deed of cruelty, every failure of humanity to reach His ideal, brings grief to Him. When there came upon Israel the calamities that were the sure result of separation from God,--subjugation by their enemies, cruelty, and death, --it is said that "His soul was grieved for the misery of Israel." "In all their affliction He was afflicted: . . . and He bare them, and carried them all the days of old." Judges 10:16; Isaiah 63:9. (Ed 263)
Posted By: Charity
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/04/05 05:12 AM
I'll have to limit my comments. I agree with Rose. Regarding the tree of life, it is like the tree of knowledge - both serve a real and vital purpose. In heaven we will likely partake of both, and other special varieties of fruit such as grapes and other vegitation. Since flesh and blood do not inherit the kingdom, nutrition will be on a different plane - one that's even more vital and delectable and satisfying than today's nutrition.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/04/05 01:07 PM
quote:
Why is it important to look at the desctruction of the wicked as God killing them?
Tom, I think our whole apple of discord lies here. Is God active or passive in the destruction of sin? If God deliberately puts an end to sin, then the death of the wicked is not just a natural result. Sinners have proved to be unworthy of life, therefore they are deprived of it. Every time God deprived sinners of life (the flood, Sodom, etc.), it was in mercy to others. Sin is infectious and is constantly spreading. Therefore, God removes the incurable offenders so that He can save those who can still be saved. That’s what happened in the past and that’s what will happen in the end. At least this is how I see it.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/04/05 08:03 PM
Rosangela: Tom, I think our whole apple of discord lies here. Is God active or passive in the destruction of sin?
Tom: As you pointed out previously:
quote:
As He has kept sinners alive for 6000 years in a restricted place of His universe without consuming them, He could continue to do so for ever. Although God is a consuming fire to sin, He has control over His own attributes, and as He made the decision to not consume sin initially, He will make the decision to destroy it finally.
God has control over His own attributes, as you put it, so has been able to keep the wicked alive, even though He is a consuming fire to sin. God actively chooses to stop this control over His own attributes, and that results in the death of the wicked.
Rosangela: If God deliberately puts an end to sin, then the death of the wicked is not just a natural result.
Tom: Is pain a result of sin? When people sin, does God visit them with pain? Is misery a result of sin? Does God make people miserable because they sin? Or does sin make people miserable?
If the Spirit of Prophesy is correct, and God is the source of life, and the wicked choose to separate themselves from God, how could they possibly live? Do they have live inherent in themselves? Are they self-existent?
Rosangela: Sinners have proved to be unworthy of life, therefore they are deprived of it.
Tom: None of us are worthy of live. God gives us life by His grace. Some choose to receive God's grace, and others choose to reject it.
Rosangela: Every time God deprived sinners of life (the flood, Sodom, etc.), it was in mercy to others. Sin is infectious and is constantly spreading. Therefore, God removes the incurable offenders so that He can save those who can still be saved. That’s what happened in the past and that’s what will happen in the end. At least this is how I see it.
Tom: IMO this is missing the whole point of what the Great Controversy is about and what the chapter "It Is Finished" is discussing.
It's a challenge to put this briefly, but I'll try. Maybe it would make a good topic to expand on.
Basically war arose in heaven and a third of the angels were lost. We're not told what the issues were, but we can surmise based on Isa. 14, the Fall, and how God has dealt with the problem. Basically I see three issues that Satan raised:
1) God is not trustworthy.
2) Sin does not cause death.
3) Self-exaltation is the way to freedom.
God has sought to disprove these allegations on the basis of evidence, the best evidence being given through Jesus Christ.
The whole point of this thread is that God *cannot* get rid of sinners by eliminating sin. A sinner arose in the first place when sin did not exist. This shows in and of itself that simply getting rid of sinners does not ensure that sin will not arise again. God must deal with the allegations that were raised in a convincing manner, or else an evil seed would be planted. "Maybe Satan was right, and God is severe, cruel, harsh and arbitrary after all."
Notice the second allegation. Satan accused God of lying when He said that sin would result in death. As EGW points out, the wicked place themselves so our of harmony with God that His presence is to them a consuming fire. If God had not controlled His own attributes, as you put it (and I think is a good way of putting it), then Satan and his hosts would have been immediately destroyed. But the angels, before Christ's death, would not have understood that death was the inevitable result of sin, and an evil seed of doubt would have remained. The death of Christ shows that sin *does* result in death, which means that God can cease controling His attribtutes, and the wicked are destroyed in such a way that there is no evil seed of doubt. (I have no problem with seeing what God does here as active).
The problem with divorcing death from sin, saying that it is not a consequence of sin, is that death is the "inevitable" result of sin, and the angels would not have understood this had the wicked been consumed immediately. That is, they would have confused the consumption of the wicked with something else. With what? With God's executing them, that's what. By waiting until the death of Christ, the angels are able to understand that "the wicked have placed themselves so out of harmony with God that His presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of God destroys them."
They understand that the death of the wicked is a direct result of a choice the wicked have made in cutting themselves off from God.
This is precisely what the paragraphs in DA 764 say.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/05/05 02:46 AM
Tom,
I hope you are having a happy sabbath. I will have many activities at church tomorrow, therefore I will reply to your post today. I will not refer to the points in which we are basically in agreement, just to those with which I have problems.
quote:
Is pain a result of sin? When people sin, does God visit them with pain? Is misery a result of sin? Does God make people miserable because they sin? Or does sin make people miserable?
That’s not my point; of course sin produces bad results of itself. The point is: if God chooses to destroy sin, He is inevitably choosing to destroy sinners. And if the destruction of sinners is a result of God’s choice and intervention, it is not just a natural result. Of course everything is the natural result of something else, but there may be something more to it. As I said before, the punishment of a criminal is the natural result of his acts, but it is also a penalty imposed by the State.
quote:
None of us are worthy of live. God gives us life by His grace.
As I see it, we are made worthy of life by Christ’s blood. Anyway, I was just echoing Ellen White’s words:
“But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression,-- ‘the wages of sin.’ They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, ‘according to their works,’ but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with his justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited, and of which he has proved himself unworthy” (GC 544).
quote:
Every time God deprived sinners of life (the flood, Sodom, etc.), it was in mercy to others. Sin is infectious and is constantly spreading. Therefore, God removes the incurable offenders so that He can save those who can still be saved. That’s what happened in the past and that’s what will happen in the end. At least this is how I see it.
Tom: IMO this is missing the whole point of what the Great Controversy is about and what the chapter "It Is Finished" is discussing.
I was not trying to cover all the aspects involved in the Great Controversy, but was again just echoing some of EGW’s words:
“Like the waters of the flood, the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable. ... In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy he destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan, the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain's and in Noah's day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of his grace.” (GC 543).
quote:
The death of Christ shows that sin *does* result in death...
This is another facet of this view I have problems with. Its main point of emphasis is that Christ’s death was to *show* that sin results in death. Every time you spoke about the cross showing that sin results in death, you had in mind the sinless inhabitants of the universe (who wouldn’t understand Satan’s death). What exactly did the cross do for the sinful inhabitants of this world?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/05/05 05:42 AM
Rose: I think our whole apple of discord lies here. Is God active or passive in the destruction of sin?
Tom: This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God.
The question is not whether God is active or passive but whether it is arbitrary on the part of God, that is, unilateral justice of God. Or is it a justice of which the sinner himself is the author.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/05/05 08:44 AM
Rosangela: Tom,
I hope you are having a happy sabbath. I will have many activities at church tomorrow, therefore I will reply to your post today. I will not refer to the points in which we are basically in agreement, just to those with which I have problems.
Tom: Thank you for the good wishes. Happy Sabbath to you to. It's a good idea to pare down these dialogs from time to time, otherwise they get too long and hard to follow.
quote:
Is pain a result of sin? When people sin, does God visit them with pain? Is misery a result of sin? Does God make people miserable because they sin? Or does sin make people miserable?
Rosangela: That’s not my point; of course sin produces bad results of itself. The point is: if God chooses to destroy sin, He is inevitably choosing to destroy sinners. And if the destruction of sinners is a result of God’s choice and intervention, it is not just a natural result. Of course everything is the natural result of something else, but there may be something more to it. As I said before, the punishment of a criminal is the natural result of his acts, but it is also a penalty imposed by the State.
Tom: There's a huge difference between our government and God's government. In our government (I'm using "government" in an all-exclusive sense, encompassing our human existence) the law of consequences is not necessarily followed. People do wicked things without receiving punishment.
However, in God's government, it is not possible to avoid punishment because God's law (or God Himself) is omnipresent. As soon as one sins, there is the law present to condemn. The only reason people to not die here and now is because of the grace of God. As soon as God ceases extending grace, the wicked die.
As you yourself put it, God controls His attributes so the wicked will not be prematurely destroyed. As soon as God stops allowing the wicked to exist by circumventing the law of sin and death, they die.
The Spirit of Prophesy explains it like this:
1) The wicked place themselves so out of harmony with God that His presence is to them a consuming fire.
2) The glory of God destroys them.
In GC 541 she writes:
1) The wicked would long to flee from heaven if God were to take them there.
2) Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.
Remember that when Christ comes the wicked will cry out for the mountains to fall on their heads? The glory of God is very uncomfortable to them. They can't stand it. The prefer to die. God, in love, justice and mercy, gives them over to their choice. This is His wrath.
quote:
None of us are worthy of live. God gives us life by His grace.
Rosangela: As I see it, we are made worthy of life by Christ’s blood. Anyway, I was just echoing Ellen White’s words:
“But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression,-- ‘the wages of sin.’ They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, ‘according to their works,’ but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with his justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited, and of which he has proved himself unworthy” (GC 544).
Tom: How does God deprive them of their existentce? DA 764 tells us how. He gives them over to their choice. They reap that which they have sown. God's presence to them is a consuming fire. His glory destroys them. This is how they are punished. This is how they receive the penalty.
Old Rosangela: Every time God deprived sinners of life (the flood, Sodom, etc.), it was in mercy to others. Sin is infectious and is constantly spreading. Therefore, God removes the incurable offenders so that He can save those who can still be saved. That’s what happened in the past and that’s what will happen in the end. At least this is how I see it.
Old Tom: IMO this is missing the whole point of what the Great Controversy is about and what the chapter "It Is Finished" is discussing.
New Improved Rosangela: I was not trying to cover all the aspects involved in the Great Controversy, but was again just echoing some of EGW’s words:
“Like the waters of the flood, the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable. ... In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy he destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan, the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain's and in Noah's day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of his grace.” (GC 543).
New Improved Tom: It has always been God's purpose to bring sin to an end as quickly as possible. The judgment will show that He has been successful to this end (that is, sin could not have been destroyed any faster than it was).
An issue that must be faced is that sin must be destroyed in a way so that it will not pop up again. In order to do this, the issues which Satan brought against God must be demonstrated to be false.
I see 3 main falsehoods:
1) God is not trustworthy.
2) Sin does not lead to death.
3) The principle of self-exaltation.
Only after all intelligent free will creatures undestand that the falsehoods really are false can God safely bring sin to an end.
If all that were involved in getting rid of sin were destroying sinners, God could have gotten rid of sin a long time ago. And remember that sin arose in the first place *when there were no sinners or sin*. This shows that merely getting rid of sin and sinners is not sufficient to deal with the problem.
quote:
The death of Christ shows that sin *does* result in death...
Rosangela: This is another facet of this view I have problems with. Its main point of emphasis is that Christ’s death was to *show* that sin results in death. Every time you spoke about the cross showing that sin results in death, you had in mind the sinless inhabitants of the universe (who wouldn’t understand Satan’s death). What exactly did the cross do for the sinful inhabitants of this world?
Tom: I've addressed this at length in other topics. In fact, I initiated a topic entitiled "Why did Jesus have to die" where I treated this at length. I also discussed it in a topic I started entitled "Justification."
I'll provide some thoughts here and invite you to either read what I've written in the aforementioned topics, or ask me for more detail on any point you're interested in.
First of all, the death of Christ accomplishes something for every single person. It's not simply something which benefits one potentially, but actually. It is to the death of Christ that we owe our earthly life. Never one, saint or sinner, partakes of His daily food but He is nourished by the body and blood of Christ (DA 660). Everything we have, we owe to the cross. All blessings, from the smallest to the largest, are of infinite value because of the blood of Christ (FW 21, 21). Through Christ's death, the entire human race was restored to favor with God. (1SM 343)
For Scriptures which deal with this theme, please see 2 Cor. 5:14, 15, 19; Rom. 5:18; Isa. 44:22; 1 John 2:2; 1 Tim. 4:10
The previous paragraph dealt with what Christ did for the human race. He provided a legal or corporate justification for all. That justification becomes effective in the lives of all who believe. Thus Christ is the Savior of every man, especially of those who believe. (1 Tim. 4:10)
The cross of Christ demonstrates the truth about God. It shows us the character of God the Father, who risked losing His Son for all eternity for our redemption. (DA 49, 131; COL 196) The cross shows that God so loved the world that He gave His only Son.
The cross also shows God's character by showing us Jesus, because when we've seen Jesus, we've seen the Father. Christ gave Himself for us. (Gal. 1:4) This shows that God would give Himself for us. Thus through the cross we see the truth of God both by looking at God the Father and God the Son.
The cross brings about our reconciliation with God, in both legally and experientially. As 2 Cor. 5:14, 15 says, Christ died for all so that they who live would live for them who died for them. The idea is that as we perceive the truth about God, our hearts will turn to Him in thankfulness for what He has done for us. At infinite cost to Himself, He has provided us the opportunity to be forgiven and spend eternity with Him.
The cross shows us the truth about sin. It shows us that sin is lethal. This aspect of the cross has been highlighted in this topic. It is an important point, as it is on this point that Satan flatly accused God of lying. This is also the point that the angels did not understand which prevented God from allowing Satan to reap the consequences of his sin earlier (DA 764)
The cross shows us the truth about ourselves. By nature, we our murderes of God.
The cross shows us the truth about Satan. Through the cross, Satan was unmasked in front of the unfallen beings, thus vastly limiting his influence.
The cross secured the eternal security of the universe.
According the Spirit of Prophesy, it is from the cross that all influence emanates. What didn't the cross do!
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/06/05 07:25 AM
Tom, I agree with Roseangela.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/06/05 08:57 AM
Mike, I agree with John.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/06/05 05:00 PM
quote:
The previous paragraph dealt with what Christ did for the human race. He provided a legal or corporate justification for all.
Tom,
As I see it, legal justification only makes sense within the forensic view. If there is no penalty for sin, what is the point of Christ's righteousness being imputed to us? None whatsoever. Accepting some forensic aspects of the forensic view, but not others, does not make sense to me.
The forensic view, on the other hand, is consistent throughout: the law, the constitution of God’s government, demands perfect obedience. Everyone who does not comply with its standard is subject to its penalty. Thus, transgression put man under the death sentence; Christ came and suffered man’s penalty, reprieving him – thus, when he is justified, the heavenly tribunal pronounces him righteous and the penalty is remitted. Those, however, who don’t accept Christ’s sacrifice in their place will be condemned by the heavenly tribunal and will have to finally suffer the penalty.
Ellen White presents all these concepts:
“The broken law of God demanded the life of the sinner. In all the universe there was but one who could, in behalf of man, satisfy its claims. Since the divine law is as sacred as God Himself, only one equal with God could make atonement for its transgression.” (PP 63)
"The penalty for the least transgression of that law is death, and but for Christ, the sinner's Advocate, it would be summarily visited on every offender. Justice and mercy are blended. Christ and the law stand side by side. The law convicts the transgressor, and Christ pleads in the sinner's behalf." (ST, August 25, 1887)
"Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon." (6BC 1099)
“As man's substitute and surety, the iniquity of men was laid upon Christ; He was counted a transgressor that He might redeem them from the curse of the law....He, the sin-bearer, endures judicial punishment for iniquity and becomes sin itself for man.” (SR 225)
"When sinners seek God, and in repentance confess their sin, he pardons their transgressions, remits their punishment, and receives them into fellowship with himself, as if they had never transgressed. He imparts to them the righteousness of Christ" (YI, March 1, 1900).
"It is the Father's prerogative to forgive our transgressions and sins, because Christ has taken upon Himself our guilt and reprieved us, imputing to us His own righteousness. His sacrifice satisfies fully the demands of justice" (FW 103,104).
As to the final judgment, it is said:
"The judgment scene will take place in the presence of all the worlds; for in this judgment the government of God will be vindicated, and His law will stand forth as 'holy, and just, and good.' Then every case will be decided, and sentence will be passed upon all. Sin will not then appear attractive, but will be seen in all its hideous magnitude. (SD 361)
"The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them." (GC 668)
This is not God just looking to kill anyone who disagrees with Him, but God fulfilling the role He is duty-bound to carry out, the penalty phase of any trial and conviction. That anyone has to die at that time, however, is only the natural consequence of them refusing to accept the offer of forgiveness and healing.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/07/05 07:40 AM
Roseangela, thank you for all the SOP quotes. Clearly, and without a doubt, God will punish and kill unrepentant sinners in the lake of fire. Anyone who despises and rejects the blood of God's only begotten Son are worthy of the most horrible punishment and death. God's thirst for justice, retribution and vengenance must be appeased.
Tom, this doesn't mean God is a blood thirsty monster, who is eagerly wringing His fingers and licking His lips, anxiously waiting for the day He can torture and kill unrepentant sinners. No,, of course not. But although God hestitates to execute justice and vengeance, because He is not willing that any should be lost, but that all should come to repentance, He will, nevertheless, pour out His wrath upon those who deserve it. He will not clear the guilty.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/07/05 01:47 AM
Rosangela: As I see it, legal justification only makes sense within the forensic view.
Tom: "Legal" and "forensic" mean the same thing.
Rosangela: If there is no penalty for sin, what is the point of Christ's righteousness being imputed to us?
Tom: There is a penalty for sin. The penalty is death. Sin results in death. Righteousness results in life. The wages, or penalty, of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.
Rosangela: None whatsoever. Accepting some forensic aspects of the forensic view, but not others, does not make sense to me.
The forensic view, on the other hand, is consistent throughout: the law, the constitution of God’s government, demands perfect obedience. Everyone who does not comply with its standard is subject to its penalty. Thus, transgression put man under the death sentence; Christ came and suffered man’s penalty, reprieving him – thus, when he is justified, the heavenly tribunal pronounces him righteous and the penalty is remitted. Those, however, who don’t accept Christ’s sacrifice in their place will be condemned by the heavenly tribunal and will have to finally suffer the penalty.
Tom: It is unbelief that brings condemnation. If our hearts do not condemn us, we have full assurance before God. (1 John 5:21).
Why are those who don't accept Christ's sacrifice in their place condemned? Because they have not believed. (John 3:18)
The forensic justification was for the whole race. See FW 21, 22 for a full explanation. To the death of Christ we owe even our earthly life. Never one, saint or sinner, partakes of his daily food but he is nourished by the body and blood of Christ. (DA 660) Christ by His wonderful work restored
the entire race to favor with God. This is forensic justification, effective for the entire world. Christ signed the emancipation papers of the human race with His blood. (MH 89)
This is forensice, or legal, or corporate justification. When the sinner believes in his heart, he is justified by faith. Jesus explained this to Nicodemus:
quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.
If the sinner does not resist the grace of God, he will be saved.
Rosangela: Ellen White presents all these concepts:
“The broken law of God demanded the life of the sinner. In all the universe there was but one who could, in behalf of man, satisfy its claims. Since the divine law is as sacred as God Himself, only one equal with God could make atonement for its transgression.” (PP 63)
Tom: If you read what Ellen White says about atonement you will see that she explains it as the "at-one-ment," which is bringing man to God. This is just what Peter says in 1 Peter 2:24 -- that Jesus bore our sins in His body to bring us to God. There is no doubt that Christ had to die (which is paying the penalty for sin, since the penalty of sin is death). The question is, why? How does Christ's death "bring us to God"? How does it reconcile us? How does it bring about an at-one-ment.
The quote in DA above explains how. When the sinner perceives the love of God, he is brought to repentance, and brought into harmony with God.
Rosangela: "The penalty for the least transgression of that law is death, and but for Christ, the sinner's Advocate, it would be summarily visited on every offender. Justice and mercy are blended. Christ and the law stand side by side. The law convicts the transgressor, and Christ pleads in the sinner's behalf." (ST, August 25, 1887)
"Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon." (6BC 1099)
“As man's substitute and surety, the iniquity of men was laid upon Christ; He was counted a transgressor that He might redeem them from the curse of the law....He, the sin-bearer, endures judicial punishment for iniquity and becomes sin itself for man.” (SR 225)
"When sinners seek God, and in repentance confess their sin, he pardons their transgressions, remits their punishment, and receives them into fellowship with himself, as if they had never transgressed. He imparts to them the righteousness of Christ" (YI, March 1, 1900).
"It is the Father's prerogative to forgive our transgressions and sins, because Christ has taken upon Himself our guilt and reprieved us, imputing to us His own righteousness. His sacrifice satisfies fully the demands of justice" (FW 103,104).
OK, I'm going to stop here because this is getting to be too many quotes. I'll deal with the one on the judgment later. Regarding these on salvation, these are all saying the same thing.
From a legal standpoint, Christ restored the entire race to favor with God. This legal aspect involves every person. Please read Faith and Works 21, 22 which explains this in great detail.
The following Scriptures also talk of it: Rom. 5:18; 2 Cor. 5:14, 15, 19; 1 Tim. 4:10; Isa 44:22; 1 John 2:2.
Regarding justification by faith, the quote from DA on Nicodemus explains the concept very well. Man's heart is not right with God. He is restored when he believes the truth about God as revealed in Jesus Christ. As man believes, he is brought into harmony with God; the law of God is written in the heart.
Instead of just quoting a whole bunch of EGW quotes, I would find it more helpful if you quoted fewer and commented on them as to why you are quoting them. I cannot read your mind, so I don't know your point unless you tell me. Please quote a few statements and make your point. If you have more statements and some other point, I would appreciate it if you made another post.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/07/05 07:08 AM
quote:
He will, nevertheless, pour out His wrath upon those who deserve it. He will not clear the guilty.
Yes, it is true that God will give the wicked over to the results of their choice, as DA 764 points out, as this is exactly what God's wrath is, which all of the following Scriptures point out.
quote:
"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods." (Deut 31:17, 18)
"They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city.
." (Jer. 33:5)
"For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs.
Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.
Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes." (2 Chron 29: 6, 8)
"And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.
And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight." (2 Kings 17:17-20)
"Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation." (Ps. 27:9)
"How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?" (Ps. 89:46)
"Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit." (Ps. 143:7)
"Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them!" (Hosea 9:12)
"The LORD was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.
And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation (wrath JB) of his anger the king and the priest.
The LORD hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast." (Lam. 2:5-7)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. (Rom. 1:18-26)
A final comment is that God's wrath was also poured out upon Christ in the same manner, as Romans 4:25 tells us that Christ was "delivered" for our offences, which is the same word used above in Romans 1 translated "given up."
Noone who refuses to give up sin, not one guilty person, will escape the penatly of sin:
quote:
In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. DA 107, 108
Note it's the same thing which imparts life to the righteous that slays the wicked! God is just Himself. The wicked destroy themselves by putting themselves out of harmony with God.
quote:
God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. COL 84
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/07/05 07:53 AM
Tom: I didn't see your last comment when I suggested you comment on what you quote; sorry about that. I thank you for your thoughts, as it makes it easier to see what your thinking than just quotes.
I also thank you for the continued dialog. It's been very helpful for me.
"The judgment scene will take place in the presence of all the worlds; for in this judgment the government of God will be vindicated, and His law will stand forth as 'holy, and just, and good.' Then every case will be decided, and sentence will be passed upon all.
Sin will not then appear attractive, but will be seen in all its hideous magnitude. (SD 361)
I would like to comment on the part which I put in bold. This is a very important principle.
God has told us that sin will result in death. Sin is lethal. The cross of Christ shows this to be the case. And also the death of the wicked, which this quote points out.
When we underestimate the hideousness of sin, we are led in overstating God's role in the destruction of the wicked.When we see sin as a weak thing, then God must do the destruction, because sin is weak and can't do it by itself. But sin is not weak! The destruction of the wicked will show this to be the case.
Note the following:
quote:
God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. COL 84
This also shows the lethality of sin.
quote:
But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. GC 36
Shows the same thing. God is not to be looked at as an executioner. The wicked reap that which they have sown.
quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. DA 107
Same idea. It is the glory of God which destroys sin. Note continuing down on the same quote that the same thing that destroys the wicked gives life to the righteous!
quote:
The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. DA 108
This is reminiscent of Isa 33:14, 15
quote:
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walketh righteously
Again this principle is explained in DA 764
quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
Here is what we have seen:
1) God destroys no one.
2) The wicked destroy themselves.
3) Unbelief sows a sure harvest.
4) God is not to be looked upon as an executioner.
5) The same glory of God which gives life to the rightoues destroys the wicked.
6) God is a consuming fire to sin, so those who place themselves out of harmony with God, who insist on clinging to it, will be destroyed by God's glory.
"The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them." (GC 668)
Yes, this is exactly right! Sin results in death. That is exactly what will happen to the wicked. Although God does not stand before the wicked as an executioner, the wicked will have destroyed themselves by placing themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence to them is a consuming fire, and they are destroyed.
In fact, it is in mercy that God allows the wicked to be destroyed, as they have no desire to live with God:
quote:
A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. GC 543
Rosangela: This is not God just looking to kill anyone who disagrees with Him, but God fulfilling the role He is duty-bound to carry out, the penalty phase of any trial and conviction. That anyone has to die at that time, however, is only the natural consequence of them refusing to accept the offer of forgiveness and healing.
Tom: You yourself said that God controls His own attributes so the wicked are not destroyed before their time. You are exactly right! At the right time, at the judgment, God stops controling His attributes, and the wicked die; His glory destroys them, just as we have read many, many times. This is how God carries out the penalty phase.
Here's one more quote that explains the principle that it is the glory of God which destroys:
quote:
Had He appeared with the glory that was His with the Father before the world was, we could not have endured the light of His presence. That we might behold it and not be destroyed, the manifestation of His glory was shrouded. His divinity was veiled with humanity,--the invisible glory in the visible human form. DA 23
If God's glory had not been shrouded, it would have destroyed us. At the judgment of the wicked, it is not shrouded, and it will destroy.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/07/05 01:56 PM
Tom,
My point is crystal clear. The law demanding the life of the sinner is very different from a “natural result”. Justice demanding that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed doesn’t refer to just a “natural result”. Christ enduring JUDICIAL punishment for iniquity doesn’t refer to just a “natural result”. Death sentence passed upon the wicked is referring to the decision of a tribunal to punish for high treason, not just to a “natural result”. No one would describe the penalty phase of any trial as just a natural result; no one would describe the sentence of a tribunal as just a natural result. That has been my point the whole time.
Having said that, I would like to say that my position is that the penalty for the transgression of the law is having to face the wrath of God against SIN, which will inevitably result in the death of the sinner. The wrath of God, however, is primarily against SIN, and by destroying sin the wrath of God will be appeased. I believe what will happen to the wicked, however, is similar to what happened at the death of Christ:
"The Captain of our salvation was perfected through suffering. His soul was made an offering for sin. It was necessary for the awful darkness to gather about His soul because of the withdrawal of the Father's love and favor; for He was standing in the sinner's place, and this darkness every sinner must experience. The righteous One must suffer the condemnation and wrath of God, not in vindictiveness; for the heart of God yearned with greatest sorrow when His Son, the guiltless, was suffering the penalty of sin. (7BC 924).
[ February 07, 2005, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Rosangela ]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/07/05 08:10 PM
Roseangela, sin cannot sin. Only free moral agents (FMAs) can choose to sin. Therefore, the wrath of God will be poured out upon sinners who refused to embrance Jesus, who rejected His blood. In destroying unrepentant sinners God effectively eliminates sin.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/07/05 11:22 PM
Rosangela: Tom,
My point is crystal clear. The law demanding the life of the sinner is very different from a “natural result”.
Tom: I've posted perhaps over a hundred posts on this subject and have never used the phrase "natural result."
Rosangela: Justice demanding that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed doesn’t refer to just a “natural result”.
Tom: Again, I've never used this phrase. Please address what I actually wrote.
Rosangela: Christ enduring JUDICIAL punishment for iniquity doesn’t refer to just a “natural result”.
Tom: I repeat, please address the argument I actually made.
Rosangela: Death sentence passed upon the wicked is referring to the decision of a tribunal to punish for high treason, not just to a “natural result”.
Tom: Ditto.
Rosangel: No one would describe the penalty phase of any trial as just a natural result; no one would describe the sentence of a tribunal as just a natural result. That has been my point the whole time.
Tom: Ditto again.
Rosangela: Having said that, I would like to say that my position is that the penalty for the transgression of the law is having to face the wrath of God against SIN, which will inevitably result in the death of the sinner.
Tom: I agree with this. The glory of God destroys sin. Those who cling to it are identified with it, and will be destroyed along with the sin. I made this point in my post.
Rosangela: The wrath of God, however, is primarily against SIN, and by destroying sin the wrath of God will be appeased. I believe what will happen to the wicked, however, is similar to what happened at the death of Christ:
"The Captain of our salvation was perfected through suffering. His soul was made an offering for sin. It was necessary for the awful darkness to gather about His soul because of the withdrawal of the Father's love and favor; for He was standing in the sinner's place, and this darkness every sinner must experience. The righteous One must suffer the condemnation and wrath of God, not in vindictiveness; for the heart of God yearned with greatest sorrow when His Son, the guiltless, was suffering the penalty of sin. (7BC 924).
Tom: I showed through the Scripture texts what the wrath of God is. It is giving those who have rejected God's mercy over to the result of their choices. This is also what the Spirit of Prophesy says. I provided a lot of evidence for this view. You have not considered what I wrote, as far as I can tell. I am addressing your arguments, but you are not addressing mine. I feel left out. ;-< sad face with tear.
I agree that what Christ suffered is what will happen to the wicked. The 1T 124 text brings that out clearly. Also Heb. 2:9 which says that Christ tasted death for every man.
I would invite you to consider my posts above. I put a lot of thought and effort into them. I welcome your comments relating to them. I would like it if you addressed the points I made in them.
Thank you.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/07/05 11:25 PM
Mike, simply eliminating sin does not cure the problem. The issues of the Great Controversy must be made plain. Remember that sin originated in heaven at a time when there was neither sin nor sinners, hence simply getting to a sinless environment does not resolve the problem. If it could, God would have destroyed Satan long, long, long ago.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/08/05 01:43 AM
Tom,
I have been using the expression “natural result” from I think my first post and you never complained of it. Now you said that you never used the expression, but not using the expression doesn’t mean not using the concept.
You said, for instance, in your post of February 04, 2005 01:03 PM:
quote:
Rosangela: If God deliberately puts an end to sin, then the death of the wicked is not just a natural result.
Tom: Is pain a result of sin? When people sin, does God visit them with pain? Is misery a result of sin? Does God make people miserable because they sin? Or does sin make people miserable?
I thought your point was that pain and misery are natural results of sin (not an imposed punishment), and so is death. Or have I misunderstood you?
In your post of February 01, 2005 01:20 PM, you said:
quote:
Rosangela: The fact that there will be a difference in the duration of the punishment, definitely characterizes it as an imposed punishment, and not as a natural consequence.
Tom: Why should that be the case? Let's consider gravity as an example. The higher you jump from, the greater your penalty.
I thought your point was that what happens to you when you jump is a natural consequence of the law of gravity, not an imposed punishment. Or have I misunderstood you?
Ellen White uses legal terms to describe the subject we are discussing, and she makes clear that they are legal because there is a tribunal involved – the heavenly tribunal. This tribunal passes a sentence on the wicked and condemns them to death. There is no way to describe the sentence of a tribunal except as an imposed punishment. You have been repeating over and over again that it is God’s glory which will destroy sin. I’m in perfect agreement with this. However, saying that God’s glory will destroy sin would not protect Him from responsibility for the death of sinners. As I said, if I introduce you to my presence and know that by this act you will die, I’m killing you. Although David did not directly take the life of Uriah, he disposed things in such a way that Uriah would die; therefore, he is accused of having “struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword” (2 Sam. 12:9).
[ February 07, 2005, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Rosangela ]
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/08/05 01:49 AM
Mike,
Rom. 1:18 says: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men."
If men cherish sin, the wrath of God will come upon them (Ephe. 5:6, Col. 3:6), because in the day when God destroys sin, they will be destroyed with it. However, I believe the act of God will be primarily against sin; God has "no pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Ezeq. 33:11). The reason why the wicked will be destroyed is because they are completely identified with sin, and for God to exterminate sin from the universe, they must be exterminated too. This is why it is called His "alien" (RSV) work. My dictionary defines alien as "differing in character, opposed in nature". God is love, and He delights in creating and in saving, not in destroying anyone.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/08/05 02:01 AM
Rosangela, you yourself wrote that the reason the wicked exist is because God controls His own attributes. You agree with what you wrote, right? So can we agree that the wrath of God is His no longer controlling His attributes? And this is His strange work? At this time the glory of God destroys the wicked, because it destroys sin, and they have become so identified with sin that they must be destroyed too?
In the Rom. 1:18 text it says that God's wrath is revealed against ungodliness and unrighteousness. The following verses explain what that means. Three times it explains that God "gave them up." This is the same Greek word used in Romans 4:25 where it says that Jesus was "delivered" for our offenses.
God gives the wicked up to their choice. Those who hate Christ, love death.
quote:
Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." .. [T]hey receive the results of their own choice. (DA 764)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/08/05 07:56 AM
Roseangela, makes sense to me. Thank you. God is not willing that any should be lost, but that all come to repentance.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/08/05 03:09 PM
quote:
Rosangela, you yourself wrote that the reason the wicked exist is because God controls His own attributes. You agree with what you wrote, right? So can we agree that the wrath of God is His no longer controlling His attributes? And this is His strange work? At this time the glory of God destroys the wicked, because it destroys sin, and they have become so identified with sin that they must be destroyed too?
Yes, Tom, we can agree on these points.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/09/05 07:35 AM
Both the Bible and the SOP agree that God will punish sinners for rejecting the blood of Jesus. Each sinner will suffer according to their sinfulness. The glory of God that destroys them is symbolic of literal fire and brimstone. The elimination of sin is the result of eliminating sinners. No sinners, no sin. The record and memory of sins will be blotted out.
Yes, theoretically speaking the potential or possibility of sinning will exist throughout eternity (FMAs are free to sin), but in reality it will never happen again. Why? Because God knows the future, the end from the beginning, and He has reported that no one will ever choose to sin again. As it was in the beginning, FMAs can choose to sin if they want to, but they won't, because they love God and hate sin.
Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
EW 294
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/08/05 09:55 PM
quote:
The glory of God that destroys them is symbolic of literal fire and brimstone.
Where do you get this idea, Mike? The glory of God is His character. How can God's character be symbolic of literal fire and brimstone? Doesn't this make a lot more sense the other way around?
quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30.
108
Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 107, 108)
The glory of God destroys sin. This same glory imparts life to the wicked. This makes all the sense in the world if God's glory is understood to be His character (since to know God is life eternal), but none at all if it is understood to be fire and brimstone. How can fire and brimstone impart life to the righteous?
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/09/05 02:17 PM
As I see it, the holiness of God confers to His appearance an exceeding brightness. As we know, light produces heat, and an intense heat sets things on fire. Thus, sin will consume people not only mentally but also physically.
"When the divine Presence was manifested upon Sinai, the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire in the sight of all Israel. But when Christ shall come in glory with His holy angels the whole earth shall be ablaze with the terrible light of His presence. 'Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people.' Psalm 50:3, 4. A fiery stream shall issue and come forth from before Him, which shall cause the elements to melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 'The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel.' 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8." (PP 339, 340)
"Sin is from beneath; and when it is indulged, Satan is enshrined in the soul, there to kindle the very fires of hell." (4T 345)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/09/05 06:08 PM
If the light of God's presence is a consuming fire, how does it differentiate between the flesh of saint and sinner? Why does it consume sinners but not saints? Why does it consume earth but not heaven? Is sin combustible?
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/09/05 08:38 PM
Mike, you asked
quote:
Is sin combustible?
I will state my opinion. Before the glory of God it seems to be. Isa. 33:14, 15 says: "”Who among us can dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?’ He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly…” Those who let the Spirit of God consume sin in them can dwell in the presence of God’s glory. Now notice these sentences of the text quoted in Tom’s last post: “To sin, wherever found, our God is a consuming fire”, and: “If men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.” I think it would not make much sense to say “Then fire and brimstone, which destroy sin, must destroy them”.
It seems everything tainted by sin _ animate or inanimate _ is destroyed by God’s glory. Thus, this earth can be destroyed by God’s glory, but not the New Earth.
It also seems the glory of God can be partially veiled in order to prevent it from destroying (for instance, while the wicked are still facing judgment). Notice the following text:
“The great day of the execution of God's judgment seemed to have come. Ten thousand times ten thousand were assembled before a large throne, upon which was seated a person of majestic appearance. Several books were before Him. … As the Holy One upon the throne slowly turned the leaves of the ledger, and His eyes rested for a moment upon individuals, His glance seemed to burn into their very souls, and at the same moment every word and action of their lives passed before their minds as clearly as though traced before their vision in letters of fire. Trembling seized them, and their faces turned pale. … In anguish of soul each declares his own guilt and with terrible vividness sees that by sinning he has thrown away the precious boon of eternal life… Then were uttered these solemn words: ‘He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.’ The book then closed, and the mantle fell from the Person on the throne, revealing the terrible glory of the Son of God.” (4T 386, 387)
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/09/05 10:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
If the light of God's presence is a consuming fire, how does it differentiate between the flesh of saint and sinner? Why does it consume sinners but not saints? Why does it consume earth but not heaven? Is sin combustible?
Hi Mike:
I have to admit I find this question sad after all our discussions on it. But it does show that you don't understand what we are trying to say, and that we have not been clear in our attempts to explain.
In short, it does NOT differentiate between the flesh of saint and sinner. The love of Jesus does consume both, and does consume earth, heaven and the universe, this allowing the glory of God to consume the whole universe is what continues the events of eternity after the end of sin and sinners. Hell fire is indeed eternal, because it is God's love. This non-differentiation aspect is the very heart of our understanding.
The difference is that some of us will have a character where it will be heaven to spend eternity consumed by God's love, and others will choose to sepperate from the only source of life, and thus cease to exist. Once again Isaiah 33 where the saved are those who live forever burning in the eternal fire. God does not force us to burn forever, but He makes it possible for us to if we choose, the whole history of sin, the life, death and ministry of Jesus and is to make it possible for us to burn forever in this eternal fire, instead of it killing us. It is what Jesus was telling about those who falls on the rock and who the rock falls on. The rock does not differentiate, but how we relate to the rock makes all the difference.
I love that quote from 4T that Rosangla shared! It reminds me of that moment recorded in the Great Controversy, at the second coming where we see Jesus in all his glory. All his magesty. we see that his eyes know and can see our deepest secrets and motives. ALL of us ask "Who shall be able to stand?" and there is a moment of horrible silence. Now does Jesus do two different things to the people who stand there and ask this question? No, he simply says (sings?) "My grace is sufficient for you" and some of those standing there who hear him tell them these words, respond by running to the rocks and caves and say "Fall on us, and hide us from the one who sittith on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb." In this passage the Fire does not differeniate. The Fire said the same words in answer to all who asked that question. What is different is how those who heard his words respond to those words.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/09/05 11:02 PM
quote:
The love of Jesus does consume both, and does consume earth, heaven and the universe,...
Kevin, where do you get the idea that the rest of the universe outside our solar system needs to be consumed too? Our solar system is the only place where sin exists. There's not the first hint in the whole of Inspiration that the rest of the universe will be consumed too.
quote:
Hell fire is indeed eternal, because it is God's love.
That's another idea that finds no support in either the Bible or the SOP. Hell fire is (will be) the lake of fire, in the which molten lava will erupt from beneath the surface of the earth, to join the fire that comes down from God out of heaven. It will burn Satan, his angels, and sinful humans up, reducing them to ashes; then it will go out.
These ideas of yours are interesting I suppose, but they're clearly erroneous.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/10/05 12:32 AM
Regarding sin, or least the effects of sin, existing outside of our solar system, anyone with an elementary knoledge of astronomy can see that. All throughout the known universe are black holes, suns going out -- all sorts of things one would not expect in a universe without sin.
Rearding the hell fire being eternal, you're not paying attention to what Kevin wrote, it doen't appear to me. The hell fire Kevin is talking about are the everlasting bunings refered to by Isa (33:14 I think -- Rosanegela mentioned this too), which is God Himself. He's not talking about the lake of fire when the earth is purified.
The SOP says the same glory which gives life to the righteous slays the wicked. This is the same fire. It is the fire of God's love, or His character (which is His glory).
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/10/05 10:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by John:
quote:
The love of Jesus does consume both, and does consume earth, heaven and the universe,...
Kevin, where do you get the idea that the rest of the universe outside our solar system needs to be consumed too? Our solar system is the only place where sin exists. There's not the first hint in the whole of Inspiration that the rest of the universe will be consumed too.
This is simply no more than an application of Ellen White's great controversy philosophy, which sees the sin problem as a universal issue over the nature and character of God and the law of self sacrificing love, which is a reflection of God's character, and the beings in the entire universe need to have an understanding and make a choice as to how they are going to be related to God's law and God's love, and that God's glory, also known as the consuming fire, is God's love as revealed in his character, the law of Self Sacrficing love. I could have just as easilly have said that "God's character of Love and his law of Love will perminiate the entier universe." Tom's post hit the bullseye. It is very connected to the next part of this post.
quote:
quote:
Hell fire is indeed eternal, because it is God's love.
That's another idea that finds no support in either the Bible or the SOP. Hell fire is (will be) the lake of fire, in the which molten lava will erupt from beneath the surface of the earth, to join the fire that comes down from God out of heaven. It will burn Satan, his angels, and sinful humans up, reducing them to ashes; then it will go out.
These ideas of yours are interesting I suppose, but they're clearly erroneous. [/QB]
First, this is not my view, I am only a reflector of earlier lights. Infact, in the fall of 1977 when I first heard about this view, my initial reaction was that this view was "clearly erroneous" I did not see it as "interesting" so you are farther a head than I was when I first heard it. And I know where you are coming from.
This view has been taught in our colleges and the Seminary since at least the 1920s (and probably much earlier) As for this view being "clearly erroneous" sadly the official view of the the Seventh-day Adventist Church dissagrees, but has held this as a possible explination of Mrs. White's teaching. This view was held by a number of those who contributed to the SDA Bible Commentary. This view was promoted in different Morning Watch books, such as "Mysteries Unvailed" copyright 1944 by Lynn Harper Wood, and one from the 1950s by one of Lynn Wood's students, Paul Heubech. Lynn Wood was also a close friend of many from Ellen White's inner circle who (and sadly I have only found general comments, and nothing specifically on this view of hell) felt that Lynn Wood had the correct understanding of what Mrs. White taught.
Most Seventh-day Adventists greatly respect the scholarship of Edwin Heppenstall, yet he went to his grave undecided whether or not this view of hell is correct, and leaned towards this being Mrs. White's understanding. If this view is "clearly erroneous" it is too bad that he could not see and warn us about the errors in this view, but taught that this indeed may be the correct understanding of Mrs. White and the Bible.
John, how did people such as Lynn Wood Elder Heppenstall, and Mrs. White's inner circle of friends, or church leaders who worked on developing the different statements of our faith did not see this as "clearly erroneous." Some of these on the committees that would craft the church's statement of faith may not have agreed with this view, but saw it as a possible interpetation of Mrs. White, and would word our statement of faith to be inclusive of those who hold this view.
Granted in the early days of the Adventist Theological Society, their leadership did indeed see this view as clearly erroneous, and had it thrown out of the Seminary during the 1980s. However, today they are not so convinced that this is "clearly" in error and are saying that they may have been a bit too hasty in simply dismissing this understanding.
Therefore John, since this view has a very long history in our church, has been acepted by many of our greatest lights, and seen as "Possible" by leaders who did not accept it, and our great scholar Elder Heppenstall was undecided and would therefore teach both views, may I invite you to tell what is so "Clear" about this error that these people keep missing?
Since we have official acceptance of this "clearly erroneous" view of hell as a possibility in our 27 Fundamentals, and in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, do you advocate a re-writing of the 27 Fundamentals so to not allow for members to believe this "clearly erroneous" view? Do you advocate the burning of the SDA Bible Commentary, the burining of Lynn Wood's books, and the careful editing of Elder Heppenstall's books to purge these "clearly erroneous" views from them?
[ February 10, 2005, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Kevin H ]
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/11/05 02:50 AM
Based on George Fifield's view of the atonement, I would suspect his view on the destruction of the wicked would be similar (to what Kevin has been presenting). He was a contemporary of EGW, whose published writings I'm familiar with in the 1890's.
I'll see if I can verify his view on this, as now I'm interested in knowing.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/11/05 06:35 PM
Roseangela, from your last comments, it appears that you agree with Tom and Kevin, that is, the lake of fire is not literal fire and brimstone. Or, did I misunderstand you? In EW and GC, Sister White describes the lake of fire exactly the way John remarked above. Do you agree?
Posted By: Charity
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/12/05 02:06 AM
What Roseangela, Tom and Kevin are describing is actually a more gruesome, agonizing penalty for sin than just physical fire. The love of God requires that the sinner should have the opportunity to fully understand why the divine sentence is just. The only way to accomplish that is to place his full record in front of him. The intense sense of condemnation and eternal loss will cause the most acute mental distress. Words cannot fully capture the picture of mental agony and distress that await the wicked in the judgment – especially of those who once believed and taught the truth and then abandoned it, or through neglect let it slip away. Our knowledge of what awaits the unrepentant and careless should spur us on to share the gospel message with a passion and love for souls that we do not see enough of in modern times.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/12/05 11:12 AM
That's well put Mark. We should be moved with pity for the lost, as you state, just as God has been moved with pity for us.
There's a story in the Chronicals of Narnia I've been told where Aslan the lion, accompanied by children, come upon a bitter old man living by himself in the wilderness. A child asks Aslan why he doesn't comfort the old man. Aslan explains that he can't. No matter what he says, all the old man hears is a lion roaring.
I love this illustration! God, in the judgment, will be the same loving, merciful and just God that He always is and has been. He will patiently explain to the wicked what happened at every step of their life, and how He was working to win their hearts. As far as God is concerned, He would make them happy, if He could. But He can't. There's nothing more He can do. No matter what He says, all they hear is a lion roaring. In mercy He gives them up.
If you think about there being pain involved when the life record is opened, it makes perfect sense that this pain would be exactly equivalent to the sin they have committed, according to the light they had.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/14/05 02:30 PM
Mike,
Sorry for not having replied earlier, I didn't visit the forum for some days.
I don't know about Tom and Kevin, but I believe in a literal lake of fire. I was just trying to reconcile the EGW’s statements which say that fire from heaven rains upon the wicked with the statements which say that it is God’s glory which destroys the wicked. The conclusion I reached was that on the specific occasion of the last day God will not need to send fire upon the wicked. As I see it, it is His glory which will set on fire everything contaminated by sin. It is said that fire came down from heaven (i.e. sky) because the throne of God will be “far above the city” (GC 665) and it is from there that God's glory radiates. The fire is merely a consequence of God’s glory, which consumes everything that is contaminated by sin – whether animate or inanimate. Therefore, when He fully manifests His glory, the earth itself (with everything contained in it), is set on fire. Notice that this phenomenon will occur not just after the millennium, but also at the second coming:
"In the day of His coming, the last great trumpet is heard, and there is a terrible shaking of earth and heaven. The whole earth, from the loftiest mountains to the deepest mines, will hear. Everything will be penetrated by fire. The tainted atmosphere will be cleansed by fire. The fire having fulfilled its mission, the dead that have been laid away in the grave will come forth--some to the resurrection of life, to be caught up to meet their Lord in the air, and some to behold the coming of Him whom they have despised and whom they now recognize as the Judge of all the earth. All the righteous are untouched by the flames. They can walk through the fire, as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego walked in the midst of the furnace heated seven times hotter than it was wont to be heated. The Hebrew worthies could not be consumed, because the form of the fourth, the Son of God, was with them. So in the day of the coming of the Lord, smoke and flame will be powerless to harm the righteous. Those who are united with the Lord will escape unscathed. Earthquakes, hurricanes, flame, and flood cannot injure those who are prepared to meet their Saviour in peace. (The Upword Look, 261)
As James White puts it, there will be two lakes of fire - one at the beginning of the millennium and one at its end (see Rev. 19:20; 20:10). The difference is that at the second coming the wicked will be destroyed in a moment, while after the millennium they will stay alive until they have felt the full weight of their sins.
Ellen White has a pretty clear statement:
“Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, ‘The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.’ (EW 294)
This concept is presented not only in Early Writings, but also in The Great Controversy (p. 673). It seems that both in the Bible and in the SOP the suffering of the wicked is portrayed as occurring specifically in the lake of fire, that is, what happens is not that they die in anguish and then are quickly destroyed by the fire. It is in the fire that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt. 13:42, 50). This seems, however, to refer more to mental suffering than to physical suffering. When Ellen White says that while there is a portion of the wicked person unconsumed, all the sense of suffering is there, I understand that she is not necessarily referring specifically to physical suffering, but may be referring mainly to mental suffering. Anyway, she says that the wicked “will have to feel the agony that Christ felt upon the cross” (The Faith I Live By, 338), and since she also says that “bodily pain was but a small part of the agony of God's dear Son” (God’s Amazing Grace, 163), and that “so great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt (DA 753), I think it is safe to conclude that the same will occur with the wicked.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/15/05 01:40 AM
I pretty much agree with what you wrote, Rosangela. Ellen White brings out that the wicked experience the dreadful death which includes the same mental anguish that Christ endured, as you pointed out.
Regarding the flames not hurting the righteous, I see these flames as representing God Himself, as Isaiah points out:
quote:
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly. (Isa. 33:14, 15)
EGW says that the light of the glory of God which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked. I don't see a literal fire could give life to the righteous, but if this statement is understood to be relating to God Himself, it makes sense, because we do receive life from Him.
Similarly EGW says that the wicked place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence becomes to them a consuming fire. This looks to me to be the same principle. God's character is well received by those who are in harmony with it. To them it is life, but to those who are out of harmony with it, it is death.
If we tie the mental anguish to the knowledge of sin committed, then the fact that the punishment of the wicked will be proportional (that is, they don't all suffer the same amount) makes perfect sense. One could also look at it in terms of how much one's character is out of harmony with God is dependent upon how much known light was rejected, which also leads to the suffering being proportional.
Let's see if I can summarize your thought:
1) The destruction of the wicked is initiated by the glory of God.
2) That glory destroys all that is contaminated by sin.
3) The suffering of the wicked will be primarily mental as opposed to physical.
4) The wicked suffer in proportion to their wickedness.
I agree with all these points.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/15/05 03:08 PM
Tom,
Don't you think that God's glory (whose external appearance is like an incredibly intense light) could set things on fire?
Anyway, that there will be literal fire is clear from EGW's quotes such as this:
"As the waters of the flood cleansed the earth in the days of Noah, so will the fire of God purify it in the last great day. Then the water from the heavens united with the water in the bowels of the earth; and in the destruction that is coming, fire from heaven will unite with the fire that is stored up in the earth." (ST, April 17, 1901 par. 10)
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/15/05 09:12 PM
Yes, I think it's possible (that God's glory could set things on fire). I also believe the will earth will be cleansed by fire.
You know, the earth is full of fire, just below the earth's surface. I think this will be involved.
Points I think are important, brought out by the Spirit of Prophesy, are:
1) The wicked are responsible for their own death.
2) They destroy themselves by separating themselves from God.
3) They destroy themselves by placing themselves so out of harmony with God that His presence is to them a consuming fire.
4) The glory of God destroys them.
5) This same glory gives life to the wicked.
6) The angels did not oringinally understand this, so God did not allow the wicked to be destroyed prematurely because the angels would have misunderstood what was happening, thinking that their destruction was due to an act of power on God's part, rather than as the inevitable result of sin.
She makes all the above points very clearly and repeatedly. I am not denying that literal fire will be involved in all that is happening at the end, but whatever view we have of the destruction of the wicked must be in harmony with the above points. Points 5) and 6) are especially important to keep in mind.
God doesn't quit being the way He is. He is not schitzophrenic. God is kind and gracious, as well as merciful and just. At the end, God will continue being king and gracious, but unfortunately the wicked have placed themselves so out of harmony with God that His kindness and gracious, rather than being life to them, as it is to the righteous, is death.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/16/05 03:15 AM
Roseangela, the following quotes are the reason why I believe, at least in the context of the lake of fire, that the "glory of God" is used metaphorically. It symbolizes the literal fire and brimstone that God rains upon the unsaved. In both cases mentioned below fire and brimstone come from God out of heaven.
Genesis
19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Luke
17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.
17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Jude
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Revelation
14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
However, the following quote says that seeing the person of God would cause one to cease to exist. It doesn't mention fire or what causes it. Of course, after Jesus returns seeing God would not cause us to vanish.
EW 54
I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." {EW 54.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/16/05 03:51 AM
Mike, you haven't addressed the problems the idea that the glory of God is metaphorical presents. For your convenience, I'll repeat them:
1) The glory of God gives life to the righteous, as well as slaying the wicked. How does fire and brimstone give life to the wicked?
2) The glory of God is His character. How can God's character be a metaphor for fire and brimstone?
3) If God destroys by fire and brimstone, then when EGW says God could not have allowed Satan and his followers to reap what they had understood because the unlooking universe did not understand this was the inevitable result of sin, how does this make sense? What is there to not understand about fire and brimstone destroying? How is it better understood now than it would have been before Christ's death? In what way would this be the inevitable result of sin as opposed to an arbitrary act of power?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/16/05 05:22 AM
Tom, see my latest post on the “Condemnation” thread for my thoughts on the expression of the “glory of God”. Regarding your third question, if God had destroyed the evil angels immediately, using fire or any other method, they would not have understood why because, as you will remember, there was a link of sympathy between them and the holy angels until Jesus consumed the cup on Calvary. The misunderstanding would not have been caused by the method God choose to kill them.
Posted By: Charity
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/16/05 08:52 PM
I tend to agree with Tom that the suffering will be more mental than physical. Things will definitely be different from what we experience today where the mental processes stop long before the body is fully consumed.
But the fact that the suffering of the wicked lasts until the 'last particle is consumed' reinforces the idea of both the physical and the mental. The life of the wicked is prolonged in the lake of fire. This is a clue that when the righteous are given their new bodies that are not flesh and blood and receive an eternal inheritance, the wicked are also transformed so that they are enabled to receive the punishment they merit. It is an important piece of evidence in my view that God will personally reward the wicked so that they receive what they have earned, and sin is not simply taking its course.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/17/05 12:12 AM
Mark, the Bible says that, when we are transformed in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be like Jesus, who left and will return with a body composed of flesh and blood. This means we too will have flesh and blood bodies in the New Earth.
However, I like the idea you shared about God raising the unsaved with mortal bodies that will allow them to survive the punishment they deserve without expiring before they pay their sin debt in the lake of fire.
1 John
3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Acts
1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/17/05 12:34 AM
Mike,
In a text such as this one,
"So it will be in the great final day, when judgment shall fall upon the rejecters of God's grace. Christ, their rock of offense, will then appear to them as an avenging mountain. The glory of His countenance, which to the righteous is life, will be to the wicked a consuming fire. Because of love rejected, grace despised, the sinner will be destroyed." (DA 600)
The glory of God is here described as "the glory of His countenance". I find it hard to accept that this is a metaphore for fire and brimstone.
In a text like this one,
"If you cling to self, refusing to yield your will to God, you are choosing death. To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you." (MB 62)
Here it is the presence of God which is described as consuming sinners. Will they be consumed by fire and brimstone or by the presence of God? In my view a way to reconcile both things is to think of the presence of God as causing the fire in a sin-stained environment.
[ February 16, 2005, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Rosangela ]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/17/05 03:58 AM
Roseangela, fair enough. But please note that you haven't quoted the Bible to support your attempt to harmonize Sister White's insights. In such cases, where it appears she has contradicted the Bible, the best policy is to figure out a way to reconcile the two sources of divine inspiration. I have chosen one way to reconcile her insights with the Bible, and you have chosen an opposite way. I guess we'll learn the truth when it happens (hopefully we'll be watching from inside the New Jerusalem).
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/17/05 11:14 AM
quote:
But the fact that the suffering of the wicked lasts until the 'last particle is consumed' reinforces the idea of both the physical and the mental. The life of the wicked is prolonged in the lake of fire. This is a clue that when the righteous are given their new bodies that are not flesh and blood and receive an eternal inheritance, the wicked are also transformed so that they are enabled to receive the punishment they merit. It is an important piece of evidence in my view that God will personally reward the wicked so that they receive what they have earned, and sin is not simply taking its course.
The fact that the wicked are not consumed until the last particle is consumed simply means they exists as long as they have sin. It is sin that is consumed (remember, to sin wherever it is found, God is a consuming fire), so it stands to reason the wicked will continue to exist as long as there is sin to be consumed.
Of course their suffering will be physical as well as mental. We are Seventh-day Adventists. Seventh-day Adventists believe man is an indivisible unit, comprised of mind, body and soul. The whole being that is man will suffer.
The wicked are not given bodies that are not flesh and blood. The bodies they have carry the same diseases and maladies they had when they died. The Great Controversy makes that clear.
To say that God personally rewards the wicked so that they receive what they have earned is simply to say that God will be God. God will be kind, and gracious, and loving, just as He always is. (take a look at GC 541 which spells this out) The problem for the wicked is that they have fashioned characters so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The light of the glory of God, which is life for the righteous, is death for the wicked.
The principles are clearly laid out in DA 764 and DA 107.
quote:
The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them... But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/17/05 02:04 PM
Mike,
I was not trying to reconcile sister White with the Bible, but sister White with sister White. In some passages she says fire will come upon the wicked and consume them, and in some passages she says the presence of God, or His glory, will consume them. But I, too, do hope we will be on the right side of the walls of the New Jerusalem to see what will really happen.
Tom,
Well, the subject of the thread is: can sin be destroyed by destroying sinners? It seems to me that, after all the inhabitants of the universe have seen the true character of both God and Satan, yes, sin can be destroyed by destroying sinners, because the sinner is the only place where sin can exist.
[ February 17, 2005, 07:48 AM: Message edited by: Rosangela ]
Posted By: Charity
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/17/05 03:57 PM
Tom, it looks like you and I are in agreement with Roseangela's conclusion above: Since we are Adventists we view man as an indivisible unit as you point out. Therefore just as the righteous have incorporated righteousness into their characters and take their characters to heaven, in the same way sinner have incorporated evil into theirs. Therefore the destruction of sin cannot be separated from the destruction of sinners. When the final decree is issued 'Let him who is holy be holy still . . .' and the converse is said of the sinner, the identification and inculcation of sin in the character of the sinner is irreversible. In order to destroy sin, the sinner must be destroyed.
PS. I didn’t mean to imply that sinners will be given immortal bodies. I was pointing out that somehow things will change so that they retain their mental faculties because their modified bodies have the capacity to sustain them for so long as a particle exists.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/18/05 07:02 AM
I, too, agree with Mark and Roseangela - God will will destroy sin by destroying sinners. Yes, theoretically the potential for sin will exist throughout eternity, but in reality FMAs will never choose to sin, therefore, for all intents and purposes, sin will be eliminated in the lake of fire with the unsaved.
Whether or not the lake of fire is symbolic of the glory of God (Tom's idea), or the glory of God is the ignition source (Roseangela's idea), or simply literal fire and brimstone, we may never know until the day it happens. Whatever happens, and however it happens, this much we can be sure of - the wrath of God is love, and holy, just and good.
When the unsaved are dead and gone, we shall rejoice with the unfallen angels and other beings. Not only because they are worthy of death, but because they have been put out of their misery. Sin, sickness, suffering and death will be no more. Amen!
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/18/05 01:57 AM
As I see it, if sin exists in the mind (and it does), God can only destroy sin either
1) with the consent of the mind, or
2) by destroying that mind.
Posted By: Charity
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/18/05 04:13 AM
I think Adventists have more to learn about the judgement of evil and the wicked at the end. There are passages that we have never closely examined in the Bible in Ezekiel and in Zechariah for example that reveal quite a bit more, but that is another topic.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/18/05 06:43 AM
quote:
As I see it, if sin exists in the mind (and it does), God can only destroy sin either
1) with the consent of the mind, or
2) by destroying that mind.
The following verses should be very interesting in relation to that thought.
Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Phi 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/18/05 08:49 AM
(I am reposting this here from another thread):
The expression “the glory of …” is used repeatedly throughout the Bible, and it means a variety of things. Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP, however, does it refer to the “glory of God” as the fire and brimstone that will be rained down upon the unsaved at the end of the millennium. Notice the following passages and my personal comments:
Exodus
24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD [was] like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
NOTE: the glory of God was “like” a devouring fire.
2 Chronicles
7:1 Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.
7:2 And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD'S house.
7:3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the LORD, [saying], For [he is] good; for his mercy [endureth] for ever.
NOTE: here the fire from heaven and the glory of the LORD are two entirely separate things.
2 Thessalonians
1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
NOTE: the flaming fire mentioned here is not part of the glory of God.
Acts
2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
NOTE: the cloven tongues were “like” fire.
Hebrews
12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.
NOTE: the fire mentioned here says nothing about the glory of God.
SC 17
It is no arbitrary decree on the part of God that excludes the wicked from heaven; they are shut out by their own unfitness for its companionship. The glory of God would be to them a consuming fire. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them.
NOTE: “would be to them a consuming fire” is another way of saying “like” a consuming fire. The use of the article “a” instead of “the” implies likeness.
GC 543
Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them… Like the waters of the Flood the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable.
NOTE: here she compares the fires of the great day to the waters of the Flood, which implies a literal fire.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/18/05 01:20 PM
quote:
The following verses should be very interesting in relation to that thought.
Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Phi 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
John, the mind of Satan and his followers remains unchanged; this is just a constrained acknowledgment of God's justice.
"Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth" (GC 671).
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/18/05 06:23 PM
Roseangela, there seems to be more to sin than what resides in the mind and books in heaven. Jesus became the lawful owner of our sin and ssecond death when He cried, It is finished. To this day, He still bears about in His body and blood our sin and second death (in the MHP above). When Jesus returns to earth with the saints of God, the third coming of Christ, He will transfer their sin and second death upon the head of Satan, the scapegoat. The fact sin and death can be handled and transported in this fashion suggests there is more to it than what resides in our mind.
1 Peter
2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/20/05 10:37 PM
This and other related topics discussing the destruction of sinners and the end of sin draws our attention to Fundamental Belief of the SDA Church number 26 quoted below:
26. The Millennium and the End of Sin
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city;
but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.) Let us now review this fundamental belief of the SDA Church in relation to what has been said in this and the other related topics.
Has anything been posted by anybody in any of these topics that in effect attacks this fundamental belief?
Did anybody post that fire from God will NOT consume the sinners and cleanse the earth?
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/21/05 04:06 PM
Mike,
I see this perhaps a little differently from you, for I see no other aspect in sin except its residence in the mind and its registry in the books of heaven.
Sin originated in the mind of Satan and from there it spread to other minds:
“To a large degree Satan has succeeded in the execution of his plans. Through the medium of influence, taking advantage of the action of mind on mind, he prevailed on Adam to sin. Thus at its very source human nature was corrupted. And ever since then sin has continued its hateful work, reaching from mind to mind. Every sin committed awakens the echoes of the original sin.” {RH, April 16, 1901 par. 5}
As to The phrase "to bear sin/iniquity," it is a legal expression used to indicate that the person is legally guilty, responsible for the sin committed, and liable to punishment for it (see Ex. 28:43; Lev. 19:8; 20:17).
In Lev. 16 there are two goats, both of which bear the sins of the people, that is, are considered legally responsible for those sins; one of them dies vicariously for the sins of the people; the other does not - he dies with the sins of the people on him.
Now, two people may be legally responsible for the same act, and liable to punishment for it: the person who plans it and the person who executes it.
My point is that in our sins:
1) we are responsible and liable to punishment for having committed the act
2) Satan is responsible and liable to punishment for having planned and instigated the act
On the cross Christ assumed our responsibility for these sins and suffered our punishment (this is represented by the slaying of the goat for the Lord); however, before these sins are forever forgotten, Satan must face his responsibility in them and punishment for them in the final judgment (this is represented by the goat for Azazel).
But this would be a topic for another thread.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 02/22/05 07:52 AM
Roseangela, nicely put. Thank you. There is another aspect of sin that comes into play, that is, its deadly affect upon the soul during the investigative and executive phases of judgment. Were it not for the blood of Jesus, the guilt and shame associated with even the smallest sin is enough to kill us immediately, and yet we don't die the moment we sin, but we will die when God withdraws His protecting hand. What is it about sin and shame and guilt that it cannot kill us now but it will later on when God allows it?
Tom, please don't misunderstand me here. I'm not saying sin can kills us, but rather the shame and guilt associated with sin can rob us of life. But such a death would not account for the lake of fire, where the unsaved not only die the second death, but are also punished for rejecting and despising the life and death of Jesus. Sinning is one thing, but despising the blood of Jesus is another thing altogether. They will suffer on account of both.
Daryl, I believe any idea that suggests God will not use literal fire and brimstone to punish and eliminate the unsaved contradicts the fundamental belief you posted above. As you continue to read the description of hell fire, as further explained in the "SDAs Believe..." publication, it is made clear that God uses real fire and brimstone to punish and eliminate the unsaved.
In the Bible there is no intimation that it is the "glory of God" that consumes the unsaved. There is clear and consistent evidence that Sister White has never, ever contradicted the Bible. Therefore, it is safe to conclude that wherever she seems to imply it is the "glory of God" that kills the unsaved, instead of literal fire, we must necessarily interpret it in light of overwhelming testimony that plainly says otherwise.
Roseangela has attempted to reconcile Sister White's seemingly contradictory statements by suggesting it is the glory of God that ignites the literal fires that punish and eventually consume the unsaved. Who knows? Maybe she's right. But most likely Sister White never intended to add to or take away from the obvious meaning of hell fire as described in the Bible.
The expression "the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them" was coined by Sister White, and does not occur anywhere in the Bible. Not that this expression is wrong or contradicts the Bible. No, never. But we must interpret it in the context of the Bible. When we do this, we are forced to conclude that it symbolizes the literal fire and brimstone God rains down upon the mad throng of unsaved sinners.
Not that the expression the "glory of God" always symbolizes hell fire. No way. The Bible writers used the expression the "glory of ..." in many and various ways. Consequently, we cannot force it to mean one particular thing. The immediate context of the expression the "glory of God" must be taken into consideration when interpeting its meaning. But we also must bear in mind this one simple fact - the cannonized authors of the Bible never once used it in the context of the lake of fire.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/02/05 06:02 PM
I could not accept the view from some people here that it is sin that kill sinners for they could not accept that death is God creation.
Why did Adam and Eve die? Because of their sin? This is a wrong idea, their first death is because the ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Why do people die? They died because they inherit Adam’s dead body, the death, which is in Adam’s body was passed on to his descendants through multiplication of the flesh.
Why does eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil is the cause of Adam’s and Eve death? Because, I believe, they ate a “deadly fruit”, in it God has put (create) the death, same as in the fruit of life God has put the power of life to sustain and prolonged our life, for he had created life in Adam’s and Eve bodies. He didn’t create death in their bodies, otherwise they would not live, but he created the death in the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.
Why would the wicked die the 2nd death? Is it sin that killed them? I can’t accept this idea.
They died because they were resurrected in their old bodies where the death remain, unlike the living saints who would be changed to a glorious body where there is no longer death in it and the righteous death are resurrected in a glorious body without the death in it.
So, when the fire from God burn them, the wicked died because they have a dead body which could not stand this fire. But the righteous has no longer a dead body and could stand God glorious face, which to the wicked is burning fire that consumed them.
That what I think.
In His love
James S
Posted By: Jeff
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/03/05 09:22 AM
James,
quote:
Rom 5:12 NASB Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned...
Jeff
Posted By: John H.
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/04/05 03:02 AM
That's pretty plain!
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/05/05 08:14 AM
Jeff wrote:
James,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 5:12 NASB Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff
Unquote.
You must read the whole text in continuation of that, which will give us a clear picture.
Surely that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, because they inherit Adam’s fallen nature where sin is a part of them, by default all what man can do is sinning.
But the first death happened as the way I described:
“Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.” – Romans 5:14 – NIV.
Here is clearly stated that people who even don’t know what sin is and never break a command, died too (babies even those who were still in the womb of their mother). They did not die because of their sin, they have no sin from their own, even though was born in sin.
They died because they have a dead body.
“But the gift is not like a trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man (they inherit this death), how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man; Jesus Christy, overflow for the many.” Romans 5:15 – NIV.
What is the gift, which is the grace of God: Christ redemption that give our new life, a resurrection from the 1st death. But not all goes to heaven, there is a judgment must be held to scrutinize who is FIT for heaven and who is not. Therefore, there is a 2nd death as the wages of sin, to eliminates sin and sinners forever where only the righteous sinless would live everlasting.
But they died not because sin killed them, that is the point. Death is the wages of sin, but what killed them is their own dead body who could not stand the fire send from heaven to burnt them, or God’s glorious holy presence that consumed them like fire.
So, the text you quoted might say. That the author did include both death in it. Men died the first death because they inherit Adam’s death body and men died the second death (for God would saved men back to life through Christ redemption that does not happened at that time – until the cross) because of their sin. Without Christ redemption there is no hope for men, surely they all must die, and even so, Christ redemption that gives their life back would be useless, if God didn’t maintain this salvation for them through his Holy Spirit that releases them from the power and dominion of sin, making them righteous sinless people thanks to their faith in Christ, which is also a gift. Without the 1st there is no new life and without the 2nd they remain in their sin and must die the 2nd death.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/05/05 08:58 AM
R: Well, the subject of the thread is: can sin be destroyed by destroying sinners? It seems to me that, after all the inhabitants of the universe have seen the true character of both God and Satan, yes, sin can be destroyed by destroying sinners, because the sinner is the only place where sin can exist.
Tom: My point was that sin arose in heaven in an environment in which there was neither sin nor sinners. Thus merely destroying sinners would not be an effective way to deal with the sin problem. God would have been served out of fear, providing what the Spirit of Prophesy calls "an evil seed of doubt."
The only way God could destroy sin was by demonstrating the truth about Himself and His government. This He did through Jesus Christ.
After this has been made clear, God can destroy sin, which is what destroys sinners (not the other way around!)
Note:
quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.
Also note that it is the "light of the glory of God" which gives life to the righteous which destroys the wicked. What is the light of the glory of God? It is the truth about His character. That glorious truth is too much for the wicked to behold, because they have formed characters so out of harmony with God's character that His very presence becomes to them a consuming fire (DA 764)
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/05/05 09:07 AM
James, doesn't your idea contradict the statements from the Spirit of Prophesy that God is not the author of death? For example:
quote:
Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God,--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. (DA 471)
EGW has many, many such statements. In all these statements she defends God from the accusation that He was responsible for death. God is not the author of death! Satan is! He is the author of "sin and all its results."
God is innocent!
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/05/05 09:24 AM
quote:
Tom, please don't misunderstand me here. I'm not saying sin can kills us, but rather the shame and guilt associated with sin can rob us of life.
At least you're not blaming God for it! That's a start!
One wonders after 6,000 years and the death of Christ how much more evidence is necessary to believe that sin does indeed kill.
Here's something from Waggoner:
quote:
No one can read Gal.3:10 carefully and thoughtfully without seeing that the curse is transgression of the law. Disobedience to God's law is itself the curse; for "by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin." Rom.5:12. Sin has death wrapped up in it. Without sin death would be impossible, for "the sting of death is sin." 1Cor.15:56. (Glad Tidings, commenting on Gal. 3:13)
And from the Spirit of Prophesy:
quote:
It was generally believed by the Jews that sin is punished in this life. Every affliction was regarded as the penalty of some wrongdoing, either of the sufferer himself or of his parents. It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law, but this truth had become perverted. Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God,--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. Hence one upon whom some great affliction or calamity had fallen had the additional burden of being regarded as a great sinner.
Thus the way was prepared for the Jews to reject Jesus. He who "hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" was looked upon by the Jews as "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted;" and they hid their faces from Him. Isa. 53:4, 3.
God had given a lesson designed to prevent this. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. (DA 471)
Satan is the author of sin and death. He seeks to cause people (and angels and other beings) to blame God for what he has done. But God is innocent! Innocent, innocent, innocent!
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/05/05 10:53 AM
Deuteronomy 33:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Isaiah 46:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. NIV.
Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.
Tom.
Is it your view that contradict EGW, thus contradict the bible or is EGW contradict the bible?
Isn’t it clear from the verses above that life and death is God creation? To choose between life and death is not only spoken to Israel but to Adam and Eve as well in Eden. To live they must eat the fruit of life and to die is eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Thanks to Satan lie and deception they ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, and died.
Is life only that God created, and not death? Then why did Adam and Eve die?
1. Is it because of their sin?
2. Is it because of they were separated from God, the Source of life?
3. Is it because they have no longer access to the tree of life to eat it fruit?
4. Or is it because they have eaten the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, where in it, God has created the death, become a deadly fruit?
I choose the latest.
It could not be the first, because at that time sin is not imputed for there is no law, thus, die is not the result of sin. Death is the wages of sin, not the 1st death but the 2nd death.
It could not be the 2nd, because even the fallen angels was separated from God, they didn’t die till now.
It could not be the 3rd, because surely God will say that. Eating the fruit of life would prolong their life, does not eating them would make them die? If yes, then God had created in it not only life to sustain their life but also death. But God had said, the day you eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall surely die. This make clear that death is in the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, which is God creation.
God said that he created evil. Does this statement make you look at God as a cruel and savage God? Why then? I didn’t see that way. What is evil and what is good? Adam and Eve when they were created knows nothing about this. If they continue their life in Eden without breaking God command, even evil is created, but there would be no evilness, for no one is exercising it. It means nothing. Good means nothing too for them, they live in love as a natural way of life. how could they knew what is good without knowing what is evil. How could they say they live in light without knowing what dark is?
So, God created life and death, peace and evil but doesn’t make him cruel and savage or a monster. It means nothing if no one exercise it and since they have no knowledge of what is good and what is evil, even life and death makes no sense to them. They have only a choice; to choose life or death.
Quote.
Satan is the author of sin and death. He seeks to cause people (and angels and other beings) to blame God for what he has done. But God is innocent! Innocent, innocent, innocent!
Unquote.
Satan is the author of sin and death would be the result. Death is the wages of his sin, and God who would execute it. This doesn’t make God evil and cruel, he is still innocent, it is a matter of choice. To choose between life and death, things he had created.
Nothing that has been made is not God creation, except sin, whose origin comes from Satan, a being that God had created.
In His love
James S
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/05/05 11:03 AM
Can sin be destroyed by destroying sinner?
Surely yes! But doesn’t mean sin could not emerge in a sinless world. O sin is a choice, as long we still have a free will choice, we still might choose something against God, which is sin.
Therefore, creating man after the fall of Satan is a way out for God to annihilate sin forever. A means where he would have the legal right to abolish sin by destroying sinners without being blamed as cruel and savage. Something he could not do to Satan and his angels if he didn’t create Adam and Eve, knowing they would fall in sin and die, where their descendant must die too since they inherit his death body, and then saving them back to life for they didn’t ask to be born in sin and to die, showing his justice and righteousness, his love and mercy, otherwise, men could blame him for the unjust and unfair condition of men against Adam and Eve who were created in perfection, sinless and holy to live everlasting.
Therefore, life and death is his creation, through death he may secure a sinless world, by executing the death upon sinners.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/06/05 05:47 AM
James, I’m trying to understand what you are saying. Are you referring to the physical mechanism that causes death, or are you referring to what caused man to be subject to death—1st or 2nd death?
If the latter, I think the bible is clear that the reason death entered into our world—either death—is because of sin. Let me ask, if Adam and Eve would never have sinned, would death have come to them? If you answer yes, it seems we both have a very different understanding of scripture. If you answer no, then it seems obvious that their sin caused the whole mess.
You said sin is not imputed where there is no law, but The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” (Gen 2:16-17 NASB) THAT sounds like a pretty strong commandment to me, which the first couple eventually broke and thus, …just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (Rom 5:12 NASB)
As for the physical mechanism by which we die the first death, well, because of mortality, sometimes you’re the windshield and sometimes you’re the bug! As for the second death, "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:28 NASB)
Jeff
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/06/05 05:32 PM
quote:
After this has been made clear, God can destroy sin, which is what destroys sinners (not the other way around!)
Tom, sin destroys sinners in the sense that it leads to their destruction. However, when sinners are destroyed, automatically sin is eliminated from the universe, since sinners are the last stronghold of sin.
"The death of Christ upon the cross made sure the destruction of him who has the power of death, who was the originator of sin. When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated; and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven." {TA 205.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/07/05 09:21 AM
quote:
Tom, sin destroys sinners in the sense that it leads to their destruction. However, when sinners are destroyed, automatically sin is eliminated from the universe, since sinners are the last stronghold of sin.
Sin originated in heaven where there was no sin and no sinners. The fact that this is the case is evidence that simply destroying sinners is not necessarily an effective way to destroy sin. In fact, the Spirit of Prophesy tells us that if God had allowed Satan and his hosts to have suffered the results of sin (which is death), the watching universe would not have understood that death was the inevitable result of sin, but instead would have interpreted their death as something which God was doing (rather than sin). Given that EGW has specifically revealed that this was *the very reason* that their death (Satan and his hosts) was delayed, it is most ironic that we would continue to blame God, when this is the very thing the delay was designed to prevent.
Sin is most decidedly *not* "automatically" eliminated from the universe when sinners are destroyed. This is the very point EGW is making in the chapter "It is Finished." For example:
quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
Sin is defeated, not be power, but by love and truth. These are the principles of God's governemnt.
It is the death of Christ which defeats sin, and created the circumstance in which God may allow sin to result in that which it was always destined to result in -- death. Not because God arbitrarily executes, but because there is no life apart from God, and sin is by its very essence, separating the sinner from God:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. (DA 764)
What is is that causes the destruction of the wicked? It is the truth about God's character, the same thing which gives life to the rightesous:
quote:
The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/07/05 03:44 PM
Tom,
That sin couldn't be destroyed at its inception is not in dispute. But after the whole universe is convinced of God's love and justice, the only way to destroy sin is by destroying sinners. Sin and sinners are identified. Sin is an attribute of sinners. Therefore, sinners are destroyed through sin (sin causes their destruction), and sin is destroyed through sinners (their destruction puts an end to sin).
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/07/05 09:13 PM
quote:
That sin couldn't be destroyed at its inception is not in dispute. But after the whole universe is convinced of God's love and justice, the only way to destroy sin is by destroying sinners. Sin and sinners are identified. Sin is an attribute of sinners. Therefore, sinners are destroyed through sin (sin causes their destruction), and sin is destroyed through sinners (their destruction puts an end to sin).
Sin couldn't be destroyed at the beginning because its destruction would have been misunderstood. Instead of seeing death as the inevitable result of sin, the destruction of Satan and his sympathisizers would have been seen as the result of an act of God's power. In order that sin could be seen for what it is, God allowed Christ to become sin. In Christ's death the hideousness of sin is seen. Because of His death, God can allow sin to cause the destruction it was always destined to cause without this destruction being misunderstood as something He was doing.
quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)
The glory of God is His character. Sin cannot abide with God -- selfishness cannot stand in the presence of self-sacrificing love. This principle is explained here:
quote:
Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests? ...A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.
Sin is destroyed by light, the light of the of the glory of God, or, using other words, the truth of God's character.
quote:
God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest.
Sin is the enemy which destroys. God is seeking to warn us of its horrendous nature and power. It will surely cause our death. God would deliver us from it.
quote:
We should not try to lessen our guilt by excusing sin. We must accept God's estimate of sin, and that is heavy indeed. Calvary alone can reveal the terrible enormity of sin. If we had to bear our own guilt, it would crush us.
Sin brings condemnation and guilt with it. This is more than enough to kill us. It killed Christ.
If we do not understand the sinfulness of sin -- its horrendous power -- we are in danger of seeing things from the wrong perspective. Rather than seeing God as one who is warning us from it and who seeks to deliver us from it, we will be tempted to view Him in a false light, as one who says, "Do what I tell you, or I will destroy you." We do great damage to our own souls if we view God in this light.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/08/05 12:49 AM
Let me respond to the last post by asking the following question:
How does sin cast the unrepentant sinner into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed, consumed, etc. there?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/08/05 02:38 AM
quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them....The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 107, 108)
This is talking about the lake of fire, right?
quote:
This [the destruction of the wicked] is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
This is too, isn't it?
Also the quote from GC 541 was discussing the same thing. I'll include it here for completeness:
quote:
God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes.
The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God
Page 542
executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?
Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?
Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation
Page 543
were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.
I quoted this last one at length because it answers the question completely. The exclusion of the wicked is voluntary with themselves. The destruction of the wicked involves God's kindness, mercy and love, just as everything else God does reflects these qualities.
The light of the glory of God (that is, the truth about His character) is what destroys the wicked. This is because they have chosen to form characters out of harmony with God's character.
The inevitable result of sin is death. Christ's death shows this to be the case.
Remember that EGW points out several times that Christ's death was due to the same cause as the death of the wicked -- mental anguish caused by the separation which sin brings. If we would understand the destruction of the wicked, we have but to study the death of Christ. All the questions of the Great Controversy are answered by Jesus Christ.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/08/05 05:02 AM
Then doesn't God in a sense destroy the unrepentant sinner in the same way God in a sense hardened Pharoah's heart and in the same sense Pharoah hardened his own heart?
Posted By: rianna
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/08/05 05:18 AM
I guess I have little and big holes all burned into me by the consuming fire of God! Quite amazing it is that I am even able to talk to Him or listen to Him anymore!
I am glad that Heaven cares more for me then it does for my sin! When I feel the presence of the Spirit I KNOW the sin will be taken care of in its time!
That is all I need!
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/08/05 06:34 AM
quote:
Then doesn't God in a sense destroy the unrepentant sinner in the same way God in a sense hardened Pharoah's heart and in the same sense Pharoah hardened his own heart?
Yes, I think so. The same sun which bakes the clay melts the ice. God is who He is, which is self-sacrificing love. That love melts the hearts of those who choose to respond to it, but is a consuming fire to those who rebel against it.
Here's a couple of analogies. God's love can be compared to radiation treatments against the cancer of sin. Taken in small doses, it cures. Taken all at once, it's too much. Many times the Spirit of Prophesy tells us of how God shrouded His glory so as not to destroy human beings. At the final judgement, God's glory will not be shrouded. It will be too much.
Here's one example:
quote:
Had He appeared with the glory that was His with the Father before the world was, we could not have endured the light of His presence. That we might behold it and not be destroyed, the manifestation of His glory was shrouded. His divinity was veiled with humanity,--the invisible glory in the visible human form. (DA 23)
Another analogy is looking at the sun glaring off snow in the winter -- it's so bright it can blind you.
A third analogy is from the Chronicals or Narnia. Aslan, who is a lion (representing Christ) is asked by children accompanying him why he doesn't help a bitter old man who has secluded himself in a cabin. Aslan replies that there's nothing he can do -- not matter what he says, all the old man hears is a lion roaring.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/08/05 02:01 PM
Tom,
I think you are missing my point. Still using your analogy with cancer. Cancer is curable up to a certain stage. If it advances too much, it becomes incurable. At this point, the only way to stop its advance is the death of the person (no matter the way the person dies). Only the person's death can put an end to the cancer.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/09/05 01:01 AM
Sure, and it's the cancer that causes the death.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/10/05 05:43 PM
In a sense. What really causes the death is the overexposure to radiation. We should remember, however, that this overexposure is not accidental but intentional.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/10/05 08:05 PM
quote:
Cancer is curable up to a certain stage. If it advances too much, it becomes incurable. At this point, the only way to stop its advance is the death of the person (no matter the way the person dies). Only the person's death can put an end to the cancer.
What's this have to do with radiation?
You said the only way to end the cancer is for the person to be put to death. I said, that's true, and it's the cancer that causes the death, to which you replied, it's actually the radiation that causes death. ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif)
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/11/05 10:00 PM
Tom, I thought you would remember the analogy you had used.
quote:
Here's a couple of analogies. God's love can be compared to radiation treatments against the cancer of sin. Taken in small doses, it cures. Taken all at once, it's too much. Many times the Spirit of Prophesy tells us of how God shrouded His glory so as not to destroy human beings. At the final judgement, God's glory will not be shrouded. It will be too much.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/12/05 07:27 AM
I remembered that, but your comment wasn't in reference to that. You said the cancer could only be removed by the death of the patient, to which I said the cancer caused that death.
Anyway, we're getting away from the main idea a bit, which is that every person is destined to come face to face with God. To those who have submitted to the radiation treatments (God reveals His love to us a bit at a time so it heals us), this face to face encounter is life, but to those who have refused the treatment the encounter is death.
God certainly deserves no blame for this. It's not His fault that sin is destroyed by love. He's done all He could to prevent the tragedy.
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/29/05 12:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Then doesn't God in a sense destroy the unrepentant sinner in the same way God in a sense hardened Pharoah's heart and in the same sense Pharoah hardened his own heart?
Yes indeed Daryl. This is why the "God does not kill" people are wrong, and one reason why it is incorrect to try to equate views such as mine or Graham Maxwells with the "God does not kill" view.
The issue is NOT over whether or not God distroys the unrepentant sinner, but HOW God distroys the unrepentant sinner. Heaven and Hell are not geographical terms, but the pressence of God in all his love and beauty, or in other words God's glory. Being with HIM is heaven and eternal life to some and hell and eternal death to others, not because God treats them differently, but because they respond differently. God does no more and no less than deciding to no longer remains invisable to us, but personally comes out of hiding, in love,to be intamitely and personally with us, his beloved, no matter how we as individuals respond to this act.
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/29/05 08:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Let me respond to the last post by asking the following question:
How does sin cast the unrepentant sinner into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed, consumed, etc. there?
This is easy, although in some passages, such as Revelation, the lost entering the lake of fire is focused on from the expirence of the lost, other passages, especially Isaiah 33 points out that EVERYONE is going to be in the eternal fire, or the lake of fire. The difference is that for some it results in death, while others live forever burning in the eternal fire. Sinners die in the eternal fire, the saints live forever burning in this fire. Thus the unrepentant sinners are cast into the fire the same way as the repentant sinners and the unfallen beings are. We all enter the visable pressence of God.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 03/30/05 04:12 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Then doesn't God in a sense destroy the unrepentant sinner in the same way God in a sense hardened Pharoah's heart and in the same sense Pharoah hardened his own heart?
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin H:Yes indeed Daryl. This is why the "God does not kill" people are wrong, and one reason why it is incorrect to try to equate views such as mine or Graham Maxwells with the "God does not kill" view.
I'm not seeing the connection. Why does the fact that God's actions are often portrayed in Scripture as active when they are what we would describe as passive mean the God doesn't kill people are incorrect, especially given that this is the main point of their argument?
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 04/01/05 11:13 AM
As with the questions "is Jesus fully God or fully man?" "Is God one or three?" "Is God just or merciful?" "Is God outside of time and space (infinate) or inside of time and space?" "Is God my personal God, or is He impersonal dealing with the entire universe?"
The answer to all of these are "Yes" but to have just one part of the question without the other would be wrong.
So with the distruction of the wicked, we have a oneness of active and passive. God is active in making himself visible to all, allowing the lost to see him in person and answer their questions even though he knows the results of them seeing him in person and seeing the roles they played. What is passive is that he does nothing different to them than what he does to you and me.
The forensic view has God active at the expence of passive, and thus only half the truth. The universalists or the God does not kill people has God passive at the expence of his all-powerful actvity and complete control and completely clearifying the issues of the Great Controversy.
My understanding, and my understanding of Graham Maxwell has the answer to the question "In the distruction of the wicked, is God active or passive?" being "Yes!"
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 04/01/05 11:40 PM
quote:
The universalists or the God does not kill people has God passive at the expence of his all-powerful actvity and complete control and completely clearifying the issues of the Great Controversy.
You appear to be lumping universalists together with the God does not kill people. Is that right? Are their views the same on the question of God not clarifying the issues of the Great Controversy?
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 04/02/05 08:37 AM
Sorry Tom for the confusion, I do not put them together beyond them sometimes having the same issue of holding truth at the expence of the other part of the truth in siding with passive at the expence of active.
I think I named both of them because in the past I've studied the God does not kill view and compaired and contrasted that view with what I believe and compaired and contrasted that view with Graham Maxwell's teachings. This past month I found, bought and just finished reading a book, "The Hell Jesus Never Intended" which brings up a lot of excellent points (especially if you use the book to study Santification), but this book is actually teaching what some falsely accuse Graham Maxwell of teaching, and while the writer does not come right out and embrace universalism, he is open to being surprised to get to heaven and learn that universalism was indeed correct.
Since, except for being open to the possibility of universalism, this book is teaching what Graham Maxwell is falsely accused of teaching, I mentioned the two views in the same breath, and you are correct, I probably should have sepperated them. Once again please accept my appology.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 04/02/05 09:24 AM
Ok. I was just trying to understand what you were saying, because I wasn't following the logic. I think there is quite a lot of varitey among the God does not kill people, so it would be difficult to make sweeping statements.
I agree with what I think you said regarding universalists having some good ideas. I can especially understand their motivation if they do not understand that the soul is not immortal, so are thus forced to choose between universalism and God's torturing people in hell forever.
Regarding the fate of the wicked in the end, I've not heard an explanation that resinates with me better than Maxwell's.
quote:
Since, except for being open to the possibility of universalism, this book is teaching what Graham Maxwell is falsely accused of teaching,
I didn't understand this. Why the exception for the possibility of universalism? This makes it sound like Maxwell is open to the possibility of universalism. Did you write what you meant to, or am I misunderstanding something here?
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 04/02/05 02:54 PM
What I am saying is that Graham Maxwell DOES NOT teach much of what he is accused of teaching by those trying to criticizise him, however, this book I just read "The Hell Jesus Never Intended" does teach those ideas. The critics of Graham Maxwell's theology has most likely come accross the ideas this book teaches, and have unjustly imposed these ideas upon Graham Maxwell.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 04/02/05 11:54 PM
So you're saying the whole book is false, and is comprised of two parts, the first part of which no one accuses Maxwell of teaching, and the second part of which Maxwell is (falsely) accused of teaching.
That's a bit confusing, but I think I got it.
I think almost universally truth is accused of as being false, and the reason is because those who don't understand it rally against a straw man they have created in their own mind. Rarely are the ideas of truth understood and rejected.
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 04/03/05 03:13 AM
ok, I'll try to make this clearer, and thank you for continuing to ask for clearification!!! I appreciate it.
I first heard about Graham Maxwell when a friend of mine from high school began listening to his tapes. He was a new listener and did not do a good job explaining what he was learing, and it did not sound too good with me, and since I trusted my friend I figured that he would soon see problems with it and give it up.
Over the next few years I only had some quick contact here and there with my friend. A few years later I asked him about the Maxwell tapes and was surprised that he was still listening to them. So I wrote to my major professor at the Seminary to ask about Dr. Maxwell. The professor wrote back that he had not looked at Dr. Maxwell's works, but that there was another professor at the seminary who had looked into it, and the other professors would come to him for information, and that instead of getting second hand information from my professor, he recommended that I write to this other professor.
I have to admint I was dissapointed as I had read a book by the professor I was recommended to write to, and I was not impressed with his book, and after reading it I asked my professor if this other professor was a heratic.
Well, I wrote that other professor and received a letter that said "Actually I am not familiar with Graham Maxwell himself, but I've read part of Jack Provonsha's book 'You Can Come Home Again' but only read enough to realize that it is nothing more than Abalard's Moral Influence Theory, and I assume that he and Graham Maxwell both teach the same thing, and do not understand why the church leadership allows this heresy to continue without them doing anything about it. If you read the book "The Cross of Christ" by John Stott, you will know everything you need to know about what Graham Maxwell teaches and how to answer it."
I bought Stott's book and studied it. I cam to agree with his conserns about the Moral Influence Theory, but I was equally uncomfortable with the view of the atonement that Stott was teaching. I could not make either harmonize with what I knew about the Bible and Mrs. White.
Wondering if the Moral Influence Theory was as bad as Stott said it was, I went to a service by the New York Adventist Forum to listen to the pastor of a large Adventist church who believed in the Moral Influence Theory and was preaching on it. I did not like his sermon. I also looked at some books in the libarary that supported the Moral Influence Theory, and still did not like them.
I began including in my sermons and theological discussions complaints against Graham Maxwell, and when I next met up with my friend who was listening to the Maxwell tapes, I waxed ellegantly against Graham Maxwell. I was shocked when after listening to me, my friend said "But Graham Maxwell does not teach those things." Shortly after this I ended up getting a job in Loma Linda, moved out there, and decided that since I was in town I may as well listen to Graham Maxwell, and get what he says first hand.
Besides listening to Dr. Maxwell, I'd come up after class and ask him questions, and took his tapes out of the libarary to listen to while driving. Sometimes he would say something that sounded like the Moral Influence Theory, but then he would latter ballance out the statement. Sometimes while driving and listening to his tapes, he'd say something and I'd yell at the taperecorder in my car "What are you saying taht for? That's not what you believe!"
I would also read articles, such as those by Tim Crosby or the book "Adventist Hot Potatos" "Who's Got the Truth?" and "My Gripe with God" and others who's purpose was to oppose Dr. Maxwell's view. But I could not in his class nor tapes find evidence that he was teaching what these books and articles said he was teaching.
Dr. Maxwell would also deny teaching those things. He told me of a phone call he had with that Seminary Professor who I had written. Dr. Maxwell asked the professor what he had against Graham's teaching. The professor gave a list of things he felt was wrong with Graham's teacing, to which Graham replied "But I don't teach any of those things." The seminary professor replied "Oh yes you do." hung up the phone and refused all of Graham Maxwell's further attempts to call or visit him. Dr. Maxwell also talked about how two conference pressidents had made a list of points that they said Graham was teaching which was in error. These lists were being given to pastors and floating around. The lists basically said the same things, but one list had an additional point that was not on the other list. Dr. Maxwell would say that the shorter list was completely wrong, but that the one extra item of heresy on the second list Dr. Maxwell did admit to teaching, and would get a chuckle that the line did not originate with Dr. Maxwell, but was a quote from the Desire of Ages.
Anyway, while Dr. Maxwell dissagrees with teaching those things that his critics accuse him of teaching, this book I just read, "The Hell Jesus Never Intended" (sorry I can't think of the author's name) is indeed teaching what all these books and articles accused Graham Maxwell of teaching, but which Graham Maxwell denies teaching.
I hope this helps.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners? - 04/03/05 07:10 PM
Thanks Kevin.
I think Dr. Maxwell is one of the most misunderstood speakers there is. And not because what he says is unclear. Robert Wieland is another one who comes to mind.
I think the main reason these men are understood are they are presenting thoughts out of the ordinary, which challenge conventional thinking. Almost always their actual thoughts are not rejected, since they are not understood, but some fabrication is rejected.
Maxwell suggests asking two questions when trying to understand someone's thoughts:
1) What did the person actually say?
2) What did the person mean when he said what he said?