It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
Posted By: Mountain Man
It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/05/05 11:20 PM
There seems to be a lot of people who believe it is not possible to completely overcome sin before Jesus returns. So, what about it? Are they right? Is it possible to overcome all of our defects before the close of probation, or before we are changed in the twinkling of an eye? If not, why not? But if so, when can we expect to experience freedom from sin?
Posted By: Ronnie Whalon
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/06/05 02:07 AM
When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received "the latter rain," "the refreshing from the presence of the Lord," and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11. Every case has been decided for life or death. Christ has made the atonement for His people and blotted out their sins. The number of His subjects is made up; "the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven," is about to be given to the heirs of salvation, and Jesus is to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords. {GC 613.2}
No sins are blotted out after the judgment and the people of God have also received the latter rain before the judgment closes.
Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life. So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance. {GC 620.1}
Again this proves sins were blotted out before the judgment, and at this point the people of God are still upon the earth. This must be the condition of every living soul. There sins must be blotted out before the judgment closes. This truth is taught in scripture by Acts 3:19,20. One who has received the blotting out of sin has surely overcome his defects and sin; and this must take place before the judgment close.
To answer the question;they are in error.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/06/05 05:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Is it possible to overcome all of our defects before the close of probation, or before we are changed in the twinkling of an eye?
May I ask, is anyone there yet?
Jeff
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/06/05 12:06 PM
Would the person know him/herself?
/Thomas
Posted By: Cheri Fritz
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/06/05 03:39 PM
Greetings,
It is possible to overcome all sins when we learn to rely on Christ for our strength and not our own nature that is naturally sinful. On our walk with Christ when being taught by the Holy Spirit we will learn to give up our rags for His Divine nature.
This is a process of learning to have faith that God's ways are true. The closer we come to Christ Jesus, the more we learn to trust. But all the while we are to come before Him like the little child, with complete faith that whatever He teaches and says is good (you know without sin) and do His will. This is the faith of Abraham.
Thomas, at some time during when probation has ended, the children of God, which are the saints will understand what God has done, sealed them. Perhaps you might like to read the story of the 10 virgins to understand better. If you recall 5 of them had oil and the other 5 were without oil. The 5 with oil expressed that they should go and seek to buy the oil, but they could not. This relates that the 5 new they were filled with the Holy Spirit.
Brother Jeff, I will answer your question later on, right now it is morning and it is time for morning devotion.
Sister Cheri
Posted By: Restin
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/06/05 04:27 PM
Observe that the post said "when all sins are blotted out" then the remnant are prepared for the final events and Christ's coming. If there were no faults or short-comings in the remnant, what is the use of a "blotting out of sins"?..there would be none to blot out and no point at all in saying it like that.
Do you know anybody that's perfect yet? Are you perfect? Truth is, according to SDA doctrine, we're only perfect because God sees Christ's perfection in our stead, all the way to the end of our strivings to be good, to the end of our life.
This thing about perfection in the final movements is very much a stumblingstone for many. Just look around you, and at yourself. If the church has to be perfect in the literal sense, before Jesus can come, then forget about His ever coming back here at all. Forget about trying. Forget about waiting and watching for the end time. It isn't going to happen if ANY of God's people have to attain perfection first. Personally, I think this about perfection is a cunning ploy of Satan to infiltrate this remnant people and plant seeds of despair.
Anybody remember the SDA doctrine of righteousness-by-faith? Huh? Huh? Just because the president doesn't happen to be standing in his office doesn't mean his policies vaporize the instant he walks out the door! Even so those who are saved by faith and covered by Christ's righteousness lean on that new covenant promise, whether Jesus is standing in His most holy place, or not. I wish certain people, of dubious allegiance, would quit rolling this stone around for others to trip over.
![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif)
Posted By: Ronnie Whalon
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/07/05 07:32 AM
6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
6:9 These [are] the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man [and] perfect in his generations, [and] Noah walked with God. Gen.
1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.Job
17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. Gen.
18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.Due.
8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day. 1 Kings
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt.
19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me. Matt.
1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife [was] of the daughters of Aaron, and her name [was] Elisabeth.
1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Luke
And before you ask me the ? - here is my answer-
3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phil.
I believe, well know that these individuals were on earth when God said, notice God said, they were perfect and He will do likewise before the close of human probation.
22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Rev.
At this point someone is perfect and it is impossible to be found in this condition if one does not beleive. What the blood of bulls and goats could not do; the blood of Christ could --Heb.10.
What is the mark - perfection as pertaining to the conscience [mind] comes before the close of human probation. Perfection of the flesh [body] for the living comes when Christ returns. That is the change then taking place by the twinkling of an eye.
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/07/05 04:53 AM
The "great controversy" is over the lies of satan against the truth of God. Satan says it is impossible to keep all the commandments of God....God is too strict"....God says "If you love me you will keep my commandments." and with the faith in His power of Grace He enables you to overcome as He overcame. It is only possible to overcome sin because Jesus showed us how, His example was Total dependance on His Father. When we live our life completely dedicated to our Creator His mind will become our mind. "Christ in you the hope of Glory. Anything short of this means, satan wins. If Christ is coming for an imperfect people why has he waited so long? He could have come hundreds of years ago. What is he waiting for? Those that will reflect his Character. It matters not that we can or cannot point our fingers at this perfect person or that....Only God knows His people, our part is to become what He has sacrificed His very own life for.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
This doesnot happen because we have leagally kept the letter of the law but because we Love God so much that the works of the law are written on lur hearts and obedience is the product of this love. One quote comes to mind.
S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 6---- Ephesians-----PG- 1118
(John 14:15). Reaching the Condition of Sinlessness. – Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts (MS 122, 1901).
COL Pg 330
We need to understand that "imperfection is sin".
Messages to Young People---- Perfecting Character------PG- 99
"Let no one say, I cannot remedy my defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you cannot overcome. The real difficulty arises from the corruption of an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God."
Believing contrary to this would be fatal. If it couldn't happen.....Christ wasted His time here on earth...there would be no plan of salvation.
Posted By: myarsman
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/07/05 06:59 AM
Mike,
Didn't we discuss this in an earlier thread?
Posted By: Restin
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/07/05 08:55 AM
I agree, Bob, we did. So, here's my parting shot. The Bible doesn't say specifically that the time of Jacob's trouble means that we must live without a mediator in the time of trouble. That is an SDA interpretation of the Jacob story.
From the momentous day of Christ's death on the cross "Righteousness-by- Faith" has been the awesome, magnificent covenant by which we are reconciled with God and regarded as "perfect". It is the only way any human can be saved, who is saved, and retroactive from the very beginning of sin in the Garden of Eden. But, somehow, by an SDA switcheroo, that main Christian doctrine is dropped just at the final weeks/months of last days of Earth. It is stripped away and instantly replaced with a different doctrine...actually the old testament doctrine of righteousness by works. The remnant then must stand on their own attainment, their own virtues, their own perfection. We get into such an uproar of indignation at how the Catholics and the pope have had the arrogance to change God's doctrine about the Sabbath. But maybe we ought to look at our own church for the egoism it has assumed to tear off the cloak of Jesus and replace it with the former rags of self exaltation, with this interpretation of Jacobs Trouble.
And all the texts presented in the above posts about perfect people in the Bible is about how they had a perfect attitude, a perfect relationship with God, and a perfect reliance on the saving Grace of Jesus. It's not that they were literally perfect in deed and thought, or ever could be. What they attained was a perfect relatiohship between themselves as sinner to savior, and even that via a lot of help from the Holy Spirit. And "Be ye perfect' is God's wish in our regard, not His threat, even as we say to our children, "Make all A's in school". It expresses your will, not your threat. The people who have the easist time in the time of trouble will be those who STILL trust most, and lean most of the perfection of Jesus, not their own, regardless of the SDA attempt to yank that away at the last traumatic moments.
Methinks most of this doctrine that we can and must be absolutely perfect is from needing to control others and try scare tactics to make them shape up. Never worked, and never will.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/07/05 09:04 AM
The root of all sin is unbelief. Unbelief has to do with seeing God in a wrong way, as cruel, harsh and arbitrary. When we see God as He is, comapassionate, kind and gracious, we are healed by that truth.
Jesus said knowing the truth would set us free. When we see Christ, we have seen the Father.
1 John tells us that when Christ comes, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is. EGW tells us when Christ's character is reproduced in His people, then He will come and claim them as His own. It is by beholding that we become transformed. This again shows the same principle that it is by knowing the truth about God that we will be healed. Knowing God as He truly is will prepare us for Christ's coming.
Agape, God's love, casts out all fear.
Posted By: Cheri Fritz
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/07/05 04:38 PM
Greetings Restin,
The entire message of salvation is to be free from sin, hence perfection. Our work begins here on planet earth so that we will be prepared to meet the Almighty in the clouds of glory.
Christ is our Exemplar, in His steps we are to follow. He is the image we are to example ourselves after which is perfection.
So many times people think that our God is harsh wanting us to give up so many things in sin. Because we all know that giving up sin is difficult.
But Christ came and taught us that we will overcome even as He overcame. It is the promise of love.
Christ sent us the Holy Spirit to teach us all truth and not until we are taught by the Holy Spirit do we receive the changing power to leave sin.
The understanding of becoming perfect is the same message of grace, it is the good news of salvation.
Restin, we are in the time of probation, we must learn to respect that bit of information and heed its warning. It is today that we must make a choice, indeed every day we must make a choice whether to be doing the will of the Father in heaven above or doing the will of the father of evil doings.
It is not by our works, but by His works in us. This is the clear difference, for our works are like filthy rags (read Isa. 64:6), and His are glorious and perfect.
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri Fritz
Posted By: Ronnie Whalon
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/07/05 04:46 PM
Not one in one hundred.
Is the forgiveness of sin the same as the blotting out of sin? Both are mentioned in scripture.
We are not safe if we neglect to search the Scriptures daily for light and knowledge. Earthly blessings cannot be obtained without toil, and can we expect that spiritual
and heavenly blessings will come without earnest effort on our part? The mines of truth are to be worked. Says the psalmist, "The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple" (Ps. 119:130). The Word of God must not be kept apart from our life. It must be entertained in the mind, welcomed in the heart, and be cherished, loved, and obeyed. We need also much more knowledge; we need to be enlightened in regard to the plan of salvation. There is not one in one hundred who understands for himself the Bible truth on this subject that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare. When light begins to shine forth to make clear the plan of redemption to the people, the enemy works with all diligence that the light may be shut away from the hearts of men. If we come to the Word of God with a teachable, humble spirit, the rubbish of error will be swept away, and gems of truth, long hidden from our eyes, will be discovered. {1SM 359.2}
Posted By: Jan
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/07/05 06:45 PM
After Noah was referred to as perfect in Genesis 6:9, we read in Genesis 9 of his problem with alcohol. I have known of people who felt that they had achieved perfection and were no longer sinning, or that they were almost there with just one or two things left to overcome. Since sin is deliberate disobedience, we always have a lot of room to grow, because we are ever learning. Generations of people have died in the faith not living up to the light that we have now. I think what God means by perfection is not easily understood, and our misunderstanding can be a stumbling block. This is one of those things God will take care of if we are holding nothing back from Him.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 07:24 AM
To be perfect is to be like Christ. If we misunderstand what Christ is like, we will not be perfect, because by beholding we become changed. The quest for perfection begins with perfectly seeing Christ as He is.
Posted By: Larry Kirkpatrick
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/07/05 08:04 PM
Living without a Mediator is more than just "an SDA interpretation of the Jacob story." Several Scriptures sustain this, such as the yom kippur as described in Leviticus 16, the cleansing of the sanctuary as described in Daniel 8:13, 14, and the quite explicit text found in Revelation 22:11, 12. There was a time in Leviticus 16 when the camp was cleansed and all sin removed, there is a time at the end when the same happens with regard to the whole human population. Rev 22 is of course supremely straightforward. This is besides many other pictures of a close of probation in Scripture, such as Noah and the ark, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. Besides of course we have the explicit EGW statements. Between all the evidences, we are left with little doubt.
There is no Old Testament doctrine of righteousness by works in the Bible. From Adam's disobedience to this day, no man could be saved by his works. Nor will any be able to after the close of probation. To suggest this is to misrepresent what we teach. Righteousness has always been by faith. Notice that true Jewishness a changed heart. Deuteronomy 10:16 shows this to be the case from Moses onward. Paul understands this in Romans 2:9.
We never stand on our own attainment or perfection. Yet it is correct to understand that in the investigative judgment an evaluation is made to see whether we truly let God operate in us by faith to change us, whether we really accepted His justification by faith, a process that not only counts one right but makes one right.
Far, far from tearing off the cloak of Jesus to replace it with the rags of self exaltation, Adventists are seeking to follow the very teachings of Jesus. Look at this. The common view of salvation in the evangelical world is built on a misconstrued interpretation of select writings from Paul. Certain passages are taken from Romans, Ephesians, and Galatians, while the gospels are mostly ignored. Bible studies on salvation tend to dip into Romans and sometimes gospel of John, but they don't stay in the gospels very long. Usually, they just quote someone calling for repentance. Actually, we want to be true to everything Paul has written about salvation (which includes Titus 2:11-14, 3:1-5; Colossians 1:27-29; Philippians 2:5-13; Romans 2:13; 12:1, 2; etc.) along with everything the other Bible writers have said concerning it. Yes, that includes the much neglected gospels Matthew, Mark, and Luke, which have many neglected points we could list. The point is, SDAs are seeking to be true to all of Scripture and rightly divide the word, while others in many cases are only teaching a viewpoint on salvation that is built up from a very limited selection of passages and a very distorted viewpoint on salvation that neither Hebrew language background people nor Greek language background people would recognize.
The tirade against perfection a few posts above is as equally misinformed and misrepresenting as the other points made by the same party. Perfection is our privilege. It is a biblical word, presented via lips from Jesus to Paul. In Revelation 14:1-5 a people are presented who stand before god's throne faultless and blameless. They are not an inactive passive sort either, for in Revelation 14:4 they follow the lamb wherever He goes.
That is, their final condition, in which they live without sinning after the close of probation and before the Second Coming, is one which they have come to only by following the Lamb whithersoever He went--and as He lived His whole life beyond the close of probation (He could never choose to sin without loosing the great controversy war), it is our precious privilege to follow Him into a closeness with God that is so great that we will have cooperated with His efforts to harmonize us with His kingdom. We will let Him will and do in us according to His good pleasure and His good pleasure is to redeem us from all iniquity, to make us unselfish in our sphere as He is in His sphere.
So Seventh-day Adventists are simply letting God take them to all things for life and godliness He has provided for us, to take us to unselfishness. I find no cause for insinuation or invective to be mounted against the present truth and our Adventist people for their desire to follow the Lamb. Much more might be said, but perfection is a privilege. Those who experience it will be the last to vocalize it or even think it of themselves.
Why insinuate evil? How do you know if the doctrine is presented from a need to control others, or from a honest heart motivation to help prevent others from being lost? I suggest that the criticisms made a few posts up are ill-founded superficial. I encourage those who may have developed a negativity toward present truth to consider the possibility that they try to reinvestigate these things without any chip on their shoulder and be fair to the inspired evidences, imagining only the best motives in others. I don't want to seem hard, but as I study my Bible I cannot help but feel that many who today are grumping and griping against the Third Angel's Message would those of whom our God asks, "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" (Job 38:2).
The Seventh-day Adventist faith is a wonderful way to live life because it is the current, cutting-edge Jesus and believer relationship appropriate for this hour. As all this world passes swirling away down the toilethole, God's arm is still outstretched to save, to redeem, to pluck every brand from the burning that will take hold on His strength and make peace with Him. I call this the gospel, and you will have to pry it from my cold, dead fingers. But I don't intend to die. I intend to walk out of this world with Jesus. I intend to be translated without seeing death. If you want to condemn me for this, be my guest. It won't change the truth of God. It won't change His purpose to make us "meet [hicanosanti, enabled, sufficient, competent] to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light" (Colossians 1:12).
Its the gospel. Its the Bible. Its the truth. Its the way of Jesus. This is why I am a Christian.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 12:26 AM
There are some things in Restin’s post that I agree with at least on some level. Although I don’t agree with the “switcharoo”, or that it is borne from the need to control others (LK explained it well), I do agree with the part about our attitude towards, relationship with and reliance upon Jesus as the basis for Christian perfection. I also think that the doctrine that Restin refers to (or more an aberration of this doctrine) tends to appeal to those who DO like to control others and is sometimes a dominate representation in some congregations. But that doesn’t make the core doctrine wrong; it just makes it misrepresented in practice.
Jeff
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 01:17 AM
Living without a Mediator is more than just "an SDA interpretation of the Jacob story." Several Scriptures sustain this ... There is no Old Testament doctrine of righteousness by works in the Bible. From Adam's disobedience to this day, no man could be saved by his works. Nor will any be able to after the close of probation. ... We never stand on our own attainment or perfection. ... Far, far from tearing off the cloak of Jesus to replace it with the rags of self exaltation, Adventists are seeking to follow the very teachings of Jesus. ... That is, their final condition, in which they live without sinning after the close of probation and before the Second Coming, is one which they have come to only by following the Lamb whithersoever He went ..., it is our precious privilege to follow Him into a closeness with God that is so great that we will have cooperated with His efforts to harmonize us with His kingdom. We will let Him will and do in us according to His good pleasure ... to redeem us from all iniquity |
| quote: Larry Kirkpatrick |
Thank you, Larry. I think you articulated it very well.
Many people in many message boards, communities, etc I have come across fight this idea of living without sinning. My comments below are not directed at anyone in particular, but I would like to comment on a couple of points concerning those who balk at the idea of living without sinning anymore:- They have the legalistic mindset that ceasing from sin earns salvation and removes our need for Christ
- Their focus is more on others than it is on Christ
The Legalistic Mindset
Living without sinning is not perfection by self effort, but rather righteousness by faith. Salvation is not God just outwardly covering us with Christ's robe, but also completely changing us from the inside out, thus making us new creatures in Christ. It is not God's will to merely cover us with Christ's robe of righteousness, but to also change our hearts and character. Becoming a Christian is more than simply repenting and asking for forgiveness when we sin, but involves a complete change in heart and lifestyle; a change from living sinfully to living Godly. It takes more faith than many can comprehend to allow God to rule one's life so completely.
Living without committing further sin in no wise negates the need of a Saviour. Putting off all sin, living righteously, and walking with God does not atone for past sin. Only by the shedding of blood is there remission of sin. See Heb 9:21-23 & Lev 16:15-18; 17:11 And thoughout the entire Bible, both Old and New Testimates, we are called to live righteously, to walk with God, to put off all sin, and to be Godly sons and daughters of God.
Sadly, in an effort to condone sin in their lives and to make themselves feel better about their casual acquaintance with Christ (instead of a heart-felt commitment and close intimate walk with Him), many use the false claim that if you live without committing further sin, then you have no need of Christ and have earned salvation. They say that because they don't believe anyone can earn salvation, then it is therefore impossible for anyone to live without sinning. Some even claim that with every breath we take we sin constantly, that we are always found in an act of sin. It is legalism that claims that living without sinning anymore means we have earned salvation; for whether you believe living without sinning is possible or not, to believe that it would earn salvation is legalism.
Even after that twinkling of an eye, when not only our characters are perfect, but our bodies also, we still do not deserve salvation, neither have we earned it. Though for eternity we will be perfect in every way, that eternity of perfection in no way entitles us to eternal life. We for eternity will owe Christ a debt of gratitude for what He did for us and for what He gave to us, and we will sing His praises forever!
Likewise, any perfection attained in this nano-second of time this side of heaven also does not earn for us salvation nor negate our need for Christ's sacrifice to atone for our past sins.
The Misplaced Focus
Those who always asks, when presented with the idea of living without sinning, "Show me just one person who has achieved this", or "Is anyone there yet?" should ask instead, "How can I become more like Christ?", or "How can I walk more closely with God?"
Instead of looking for excuses or ways of condoning sin in our lives, we should be seeking to put off all sin, pleading with God to remove every last trace of sin from our character. I'm just waiting for someone to actually quip, "A sin a day keeps legalism away" or "I'm thankful for sin in my life, because it proves my need for Christ and that I'm under grace and that I am not trying to earn my salvation" (a little tongue-in-cheek, but many people sound like this is exactly what they believe)
To those who, in response to this topic, asks if anyone else has attained perfection, I ask you: So what if they have? So what if they have not? Why do you look to what others have or have not done to determine what is possible or not possible? Your salvation from sin rests not in man, but in God. With God, all things are possible, including living a life of complete obedience to God. (Matthew 19:26; Mark 10:27; Luke 18:27)
What would it profit you if someone else has, or if no one has? Why do you act as if it is a sin to seek, desire, and expect God to completely save us from sin by the grace of God through faith in Christ Jesus? Are we not His workmanship, created for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them? (Eph 2:10) Remember, we are not saved in sin; we are saved from sin.
Our Perfect Example
Instead of looking to others as your example (or your excuse) and asking "Who has done this?", look to Christ! He lived on this same planet as you, as your example, under the same sinful conditions as you, yet without sin. He has proven beyond all doubt that it is possible to live without sinning. He lived His life with a Power that is granted to us also. God's power to live righteously is not withheld from us.
Do not believe or perpetuate Satan's lie that it is impossible to live a life of obedience to God and His Holy Law.
Where in the Bible does it say that continuing to sin is good? Where does it say that we must continue to live in sin in order to have grace? No where!!!
But we are commanded to put off all sin, to go and sin no more (John 8:11), and to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect (Matt 5:48)
And if you must seek earthly men to be your example in place of Christ, then look to Enoch who was translated to heaven without tasting death. Do you believe he was translated because he made certain he kept sinning just to prove his need for a Saviour? Or was it because He walked with God? (Gen 5:23,24) How do you think Enoch pleased God and was translated? Was it by his own self-righteousness? Or was it by faith? (Heb 11:5)
Or look to Elija, who also was translated to heaven without tasting death.
Never think that some sin in your life is OK. And instead of looking to fellow man to see how Godly you can or cannot be, instead of seeking to condone or excuse sin, seek to become more and more like Christ everyday in every way. Don't be afraid of or avoid perfection; seek it! Seek, and ye shall find.
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 01:48 AM
- What sin(s) is God powerless to deliver us from?
- What sin(s) are we unable to overcome with the help and power of God?
- What sin is more powerful than God?
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 03:31 AM
DenBorg, I agree with your assessment on the legalistic mindset—well said. I even agree in general with what you said about misplaced focus. Except:
quote:
Those who always asks, when presented with the idea of living without sinning, "Show me just one person who has achieved this", or "Is anyone there yet?" should ask instead, "How can I become more like Christ?", or "How can I walk more closely with God?"
You should probably not assume that all who ask questions like “is anyone there yet?” that the question seeks to imply that it is not possible. For example, I have not yet expressed my view on the matter, yet I asked a question that appears on your misplaced focus list. That being the case, I think I should probably get to it.
My understanding is that to believe that “perfection” is unobtainable, is to believe that Jesus Christ was a liar when He said, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Mat 19:26 NASB) Certainly Christian perfection is impossible with people, but not impossible through God.
I asked the question more as an implied abstraction that a sanctified heart would probably not claim, especially publicly, that he or she had “arrived” at perfection. I guess Thomas was a bit more direct by asking his question. Ronnie, I think, answered the question well with the scripture reference Phil 3:13, 14. It seems that one cannot say much else in regards to his or her own pressing on towards the goal until the end. Paul, near his end, simply said, “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith” (2Ti 4:7 NASB)
I cringe sometimes when I see the question of perfection raised in forums like this, as it has the potential to evolve into a spitting contest between the most conservative and most liberal posters. Thankfully, that has not yet happened on this thread. Still it is a question that we should discuss, but with due diligence to sensitivities on the issue.
Jeff
Edited for better due diligence to sensitivities ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
Posted By: myarsman
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 03:59 AM
A little boy, covered in mud, enters into his home where his mother is waiting for him. She notes his muddied appearance and quickly sets about to clean him up.
She removes his muddy clothes and gives him a thorough bath which washes away all traces of the mud. She then gives him clean clothes to wear.
All traces of his former muddy appearance have be eradicated.
As the little boy heads outside his mother reminds him of his cleanliness and encourages him to not get muddy again.
Shortly after the boy goes outside he sees his favorite mud-puddle. He is instantly reminded of the fun that he had when he was playing in the mud-puddle. He remembers jumping up and down in the water and sitting down in the middle of the puddle and splashing the water all over himself.
At the same time he remembers what his mother said before he left the house and his conscious tells him that he should obey his mother. He truly loves his mother and he wants to please her, but he also remembers how much fun he had when he played in the puddle.
So rages the war within the mind of the little boy.
As long as he stays away from the mud-puddle he remains "cleansed" and "mud-free".
(His previous experience in the mud-puddle has been "cleansed/blotted-out" and no longer exists. It has all been washed down the drain.)
This is how MY God deals with my past sins and how He encourages me to "maintain" the "cleansing/righteousness" that He has given to me when I was forgiven/atoned for my past sins.
As long as I maintain my relationship with God and allow His Holy Spirit to be the primary influence in my life and I continue to choose to resist the temptation to sin again.......I am righteous/cleansed/perfect.
Posted By: Restin
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 04:30 AM
One problem with the idea of being perfect is defining what is sin and what is not. While most SDA keep the sabbath, don't wear jewelry, don't commit adultery, or kill, or steal, they may not be including many evils such as stinginess, backbiting, gloom and depression, or anxiety, or greed, or ever eating any non-food such as potato chips or a cookie. You must be someone who never gets irritated, or gets in an argument with your spouse, or ever loses your patience, and is never defensive or showing symptoms of insecurity at any time. All neuroses, bad habits, and psychiatric problems would be on this list. You must always be punctual, always cheerful, forgiving, and obey all health rules. Then what about the sins of omission, such as failing to pass out literature in the neighborhood instead of resting on the Sabbath, or failing to give the church more than the required 10%, or failing to pay a bill because you didn't have enough money to go around, or letting yourself have any financial problem in the first place. All these "little" sins are just as bad as the big ten, according to the Bible. So, I just can't buy it, you people who insist that you yourself have arrived at that perfection. I can't buy it either that anyone else out there in the world is perfect, or ever will be, when you are perfectly honest about what perfection really means. I've been out in the world of work and business many years now and have yet to see even one perfect person, after i've known them a year or two. And you that proclaim the strongest how it's possible to be perfect...are you perfect? Maybe you think that just because you don't lust, smoke, or steal, or watch TV, you are perfect. But you may not even be aware of some ways and habits you have that annoy people to no end.
Posted By: rianna
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 05:12 AM
Whew! I am tempted to turn and run from this forum!
After studying many years the righteousness by faith 1888 message and the wonderful Bible texts it included I had to come to only one conclusion!
Perfection is NOT my forte nor am I any kind of expert on the subject! In fact, I probably wouldn't recognize it if it hit me in the head and even then would fear it!
However if God says I can be perfect I can accept that. Because it is only God who could do any perfection creating He will have to work it out in His own way! My priviledge as His child is to keep talkin' to Him, Keep Listening to Him and Keep staying close to His awesome love. I am pretty sure I can't "Work" my way to perfection but It might be possible to assimilate it by association! Now that I can live with!....God will take care of any perfecting that may be needed! In the meantime I intend to live with JOY!!!
Posted By: Daryl
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 05:22 AM
![[Thank You]](graemlins/thanks.gif)
Welcome,
rianna, to Maritime SDA OnLine!
I agree
rianna that our focus isn't to be on being perfect, but on having an actual relationship with Jesus Christ which will in itself result in obedience which will also in itself also result in good works.
If I get all wrapped up in whether or not I am being a good Christian, then, instead of being a joyful Christian, I will be a most miserable Christian.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 06:06 AM
This is my favorite perfection quote (it's taken from the commentary on Matt. 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly father is perfect)
quote:
God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.
With untold love our God has loved us, and our love awakens toward Him as we comprehend something of the length and breadth and depth and height of this love that passeth knowledge. By the revelation of the attractive loveliness of Christ, by the knowledge of His love expressed to us while we were yet sinners, the stubborn heart is melted and subdued, and the sinner is transformed and becomes a child of heaven. God does not employ compulsory measures; love is the agent which He uses to expel sin from the heart. By it He changes pride into humility, and enmity and unbelief into love and faith. (MB 76, 77)
Posted By: Restin
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 06:14 AM
Denborg, in regard to people who ask "have you ever seen anyone who is perfect"?: We don't ask this to excuse ourselves but to be real and honest in serious life. We are trying to make religion effective, not just pie-in-the-sky with words. We are asking, is it true that someone can become perfect? Or will we always need the cloak of Christ?
If someone says, "You can jump up on that cloud up there and ride it, if you just jump with all your might", the natural thing is to ask if anyone has ever done it. It is the mark of an insane person who insists he can do anything if he just pays attention to his own doing, such as fly like superman if he jumps off a high building. So, "Show me" is a realistic question to ask. You say we can become perfect in our lifespan, so show me, that I can believe I can save myself and won't need the Grace of Christ if only I live long enough,try hard enough, and become equal to Him.
All I have to say is not in any way to get out of trying hard to do right. It isn't because I have no self discipline or love for God and His Kingdom. It comes from honesty with human nature and my own nature. The grace of Jesus is there to cover us while we strive to make our characters right, as long as it takes.
Some of you don't seem to have so far to go, so much to do. If you had a rosary it would be full of beads to represent all the good deeds and attainments you've done. You don't need Jesus anymore to help you do right. You won't need Jesus to represent you in the last days, because you never do anything wrong anymore.
But I do feel that no matter how hard i try, I'm far from perfect, and I don't see any place in the Bible that says I will outgrow my need for Grace if I just keep on trucking as hard as I can go. When Paul says "I have finished the race, and have kept the faith" I think he meant that he did his best and kept his relationship with God even if he wasn't absolutely perfect even to his death.
It isn't that we CAN'T be perfect with perfect connection with Christ at every moment of life...It's that we DON'T maintain the perfect connection, with our weak, debased human nature. I think that's where the rub really is in this debate. Paul is the one who said "The good that I would, I do not:but the evil that I would not, that I do. Romans 7:19. This part of Romans explains so clearly the relation between sinning and need of Christ to cover and help the sinner all the way. Maybe we should all just go read Romans, instead of arguing endlessly here. In fact, I'm going to do just that!
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 06:37 AM
It's God's job to perfect us. It's not something we accomplish by our effort, but something God does -- if we do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.
Posted By: Larry Kirkpatrick
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 07:18 AM
When the Bible says that the heart is deceitful above all things, who can know it, it is dishonest or at least not thought through to ask someone if they are perfect or if they know anyone who is perfect. God alone can read the heart. If one says yes, I am perfect, they deny the biblical statement warning of the frailty of human perception, thus denying God's Word, thus denying Christ. If they answer they know of no one who is perfect they are comparing themselves with others, and we are only to compare self with Christ. Again, God alone knows the hearts. An affirmative answer is a denial of God's word and of Him.
It is again asserted that some of us think we are close to perfection or perfect or that we don't need or won't need Christ. If these kinds of things are going to be said, I ask that they be backed up. Surely you must be able to name at least one person who has said these things or you woul not have mentioned it. Would you please describe a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church who has done this and give their exact words? Or maybe it is someone here on the forum, who has said that they will eventually not need Christ or that have made the claim that they are perfect. Please identify this person. The posts I reviewed showed no such thing.
It would be a sad thing to give up on an idea because one doesn't like the word. Like the word "perfection." There is a biblical teaching on this and each of us will be kept accountable for how we deal with it. We may or may not like the word itself, but we will be accountable for it. For some, their rejection of the idea of perfection is just a form of idea idolatry. The New Testament charge is, "Keep yourself from idols." Limiting God is a form of self-idolatry. Let's not do that. Again, demanding evidence is faithlessness. The New tetsament urges us to walk by faith and not by sight. When you insist on evidence, you ask us to walk by sight and not by faith. These are bad recipes. To accuse the church of switcheroos and this kind of nonsense is also to evily surmise. There is sad fruit on the tree of unbelief. What are you reading or listening to that has led you to this belief system?
Posted By: myarsman
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 07:24 AM
1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/09/05 07:21 AM
DenBorg, I agree with your assessment on the legalistic mindset—well said. I even agree in general with what you said about misplaced focus. Except: ... You should probably not assume that all who ask questions like “is anyone there yet?” that the question seeks to imply that it is not possible. |
| quote: Jeff |
Thank-you Jeff. Your comments are right on target.
I am sorry I was not more clear, but I was not applying my comments to everyone who asks those questions, but rather to those who always asks those questions in response to the idea of living without sinning anymore.
And remember I said I was not directing my comments at anyone in particular, but was making these comments because of discussions I've witnessed and discussions I've participated in, both online and offline, over the past decade, mostly on other message boards but also a little here, where certain people always responds negatively to the idea of victorious living in Christ.
Some people asks if it is possible because they never thought about it before, and they are sincere in their question.
Other people, such as yourself Jeff, ask to make a different point such as would someone claim or boast about it. (though your implied abstration was not initially apparent, not to me anyway)
Then there are others who always asks, "Show me one person who is perfect" or "Are you perfect" only as an attempt to disprove the possibility, or should I say God's promise. And in every such case, they remove God from the equasion: Have you achieved it yet?!; How hard are you working to be perfect?! Instead of rejoicing in Christ, they remove Him from the picture and try to prove how sinful everyone else is and how therefore it is impossible to go and sin no more. This is further evidence of their misplaced focus.
It was this last group to whom I was applying my comments.
I cringe sometimes when I see the question of perfection raised in forums like this, as it has the potential to evolve into a spitting contest between the most conservative and most liberal posters. Thankfully, that has not yet happened on this thread. Still it is a question that we should discuss, but with due diligence to sensitivities on the issue. |
| quote: Jeff |
I share your sentiments, Jeff. And I think most, if not all, of us need to reminded from time to time to be diligent to sensitivities.
Thank you for your comments.
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/09/05 07:33 AM
Bob D, your little boy and mud puddle story is a good illustration. Thank you for sharing it with us.
I also appreciate the verses of 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 5:18 that you posted for us.
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 08:02 PM
Perfection is NOT my forte nor am I any kind of expert on the subject! ...
However if God says I can be perfect I can accept that. Because it is only God who could do any perfection creating He will have to work it out in His own way! My priviledge as His child is to keep talkin' to Him, Keep Listening to Him and Keep staying close to His awesome love. ... God will take care of any perfecting that may be needed! In the meantime I intend to live with JOY!!! |
| quote: rianna |
rianna, Welcome! I am glad that you have joined us.
I think you said it very beautifully. Perfection is not the forte of any of us; but it is God's forte! I am glad that you recognize that it is only by Him and through Him (not ourselves), by which we become like Him! We should focus on Him, not on ourselves or others. We should not look to what we ourselves can attain, but what He can achieve in us through His Son and His Holy Spirit. Praise God!
Thank you, rianna!
Posted By: rianna
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 08:57 PM
Thank you for the welcome!
I do have a problem with the "we will always need forgiveness" theology because it appears when you dig deeper that we are all stuck with cylical sinning!
Sin
Ask forgiveness
Sin again
Ask forgiveness
Sin again and again
Ask forgiveness again and again and again!
etc....
If God has any power at all He should have a better plan then pete and repeat! And I praise Him that He does! The trick is not trying to MAKE it happen. Till God declares me perfect I imagine I will need the humilty stablizer of forgiveness!
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 09:35 PM
I do have a problem with the "we will always need forgiveness" theology because it appears when you dig deeper that we are all stuck with cylical sinning!
Sin
Ask forgiveness
Sin again
Ask forgiveness
Sin again and again
Ask forgiveness again and again and again!
etc....
If God has any power at all He should have a better plan then pete and repeat! |
| quote: rianna |
Hi rianna!
I am not certain that I understand what you are saying. I think you are saying that we are not condemned to continuing to sin, but that God has a way and a plan and is willing to help us overcome sin. Perhaps you can confirm or clarify.
Rianna, I am not suggesting that you say God has any deficiency nor that we should not ask for forgiveness when we sin; the following comment is not directed at you, nor at anyone else for that matter. Any "pete and repeat" is not due to any deficiency on God's part, but on our part. While God could coerce us and hard-wire us to not sin, then we would be but mere robots incapable of love. And if/when we do sin again, we should still ask for forgiveness again.
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 09:54 PM
One problem with the idea of being perfect is defining what is sin and what is not. |
| quote: Restin |
The issue of what is sin and what is not sin has not been a problem in all the discussions I've both witnessed and participated in, this discussion included.
they may not be including many evils such as stinginess, backbiting, gloom and depression, or anxiety, or greed, or ever eating any non-food such as potato chips or a cookie. You must be someone who never gets irritated, or gets in an argument with your spouse, or ever loses your patience, and is never defensive or showing symptoms of insecurity at any time. All neuroses, bad habits, and psychiatric problems would be on this list. You must always be punctual, always cheerful, forgiving, and obey all health rules. Then what about the sins of omission, such as failing to pass out literature in the neighborhood instead of resting on the Sabbath, or failing to give the church more than the required 10%, or failing to pay a bill because you didn't have enough money to go around, or letting yourself have any financial problem in the first place. All these "little" sins are just as bad as the big ten, according to the Bible. |
| quote: Restin |
Sin is sin. No one has suggested sin does not include "little sins", Restin.
I would suggest, however, that some of your "little sins", Restin, are not sin. Your comments above imply that we are in total control of our environment and circumstances. Your comment, for instance, about it being a sin to ever be in financial trouble in the first place regardless of why suggests that if a tornado or huricane wipes everything out, including your home and your bank, it is a sin on your part. That if your place of employment suddenly and unexpectantly closes and/or lays you off, placing you in a financial hardship, you have sinned.
Restin, I respectfully suggest that you read the book of Job.
And your "little sins", Restin, are you saying that God is powerless over these? Are you saying that even with God's almighty life-changing power and His Holy Spirit in our lives, we cannot overcome these "little sins"?
So, I just can't buy it, you people who insist that you yourself have arrived at that perfection. I can't buy it either that anyone else out there in the world is perfect, or ever will be ... Maybe you think that just because you don't lust, smoke, or steal, or watch TV, you are perfect. |
| quote: Restin |
Restin, you talk about honesty. Will you apply it here? Please direct us to a specific post of a specific individual here in this discussion who ever made such a claim.
I can't buy it either that anyone else out there in the world is perfect, or ever will be.... I've been out in the world of work and business many years now and have yet to see even one perfect person, after i've known them a year or two. |
| quote: Restin |
Restin, your object of focus is way off base. You look to other sinners and human failings to determine what is and what is not possible. I respectfully suggest that you lift your eyes higher, and as the hymn says, turn them upon Jesus and look full into His wonderful face.
Restin, the Bible tells us that with God all things are possible (Matthew 19:26; Mark 10:27; Luke 18:27) Please meditate on these passages of scripture, and also on the hymn "Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus"
Restin, there is Someone who attained perfection! There is Someone who lived without sinning! And He did it in the very same sinful environment in which you yourself live in, Restin!
I don't know, perhaps you do not believe Jesus lived without sinning. Or perhaps you believe that He lived by a power not made available to us. Perhaps you believe God mocks us by telling us to go and sin no more while withholding His enabling power to do as He directs. If so, then you have a very cynical view of God.
Restin, Look to Christ, not to man!
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 11:04 PM
I guess in many cases it is the difference between the promises in the bible and experienced life that makes the question so loaded (maybe so with desperation). On one hand Jesus says, "go and sin no more", John writes "I write this to you so that you will not sin.", Paul writes "1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?". On the other hand asking God to point out sin is a prayer that doesnt go unanswered for very long.
Then there is the aspect of how this is used. What if in a context where people would use obvious non-perfectness to make judgement on ones eternal destiny? What if in a context where perfectness or at least apparent perfectness is a membership requirement? It may be easy to forget that "Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy." and " For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." in this topic.
I think Larry, Den and others have written good explanations on much of this here. However, if someone would explain why a last day for forgiveness of sins would lead to a last day of access to Jesus? Or have I missunderstood something here. Surely Jacob was never closer to God than when they wrestled, assuming that this is what is refered to as Jacobs trouble. Also, was Israel ever closer to God than when they gathered before Him for the day of cleansing?
Maybe the whole problem again rests with a human tendency to be nosy and express oppinions about which neighbours will be continuing in error and which ones will continue doing righteousness...
/Thomas
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/08/05 11:28 PM
Denborg, in regard to people who ask "have you ever seen anyone who is perfect"?: We don't ask this to excuse ourselves but to be real and honest in serious life. We are trying to make religion effective, not just pie-in-the-sky with words. |
| quote: Restin |
Restin, God the Father, His Son Christ Jesus, and the Holy Spirit and the promises God gave us in His Holy Word are real, honest, and effective. They are not mere pie-in-the-sky concepts.
Restin, I sincerely hope and pray you can give up your legalistic beliefs.
We are asking, is it true that someone can become perfect? Or will we always need the cloak of Christ? |
| quote: Restin |
I believe the answer to both questions is YES.
Restin, God does not give us empty promises, nor does He mock us by expecting us to live Godly lives while making sure we are unable to do as He asks. He does not expect us to live righteously by our own power and merits, as you have portrayed, Restin.
- If someone says, "You can jump up on that cloud up there and ride it, if you just jump with all your might", ...
- It is the mark of an insane person who insists he can do anything if he just pays attention to his own doing ...
- so show me, that I can believe I can save myself and won't need the Grace of Christ if only I live long enough,try hard enough, and become equal to Him.
- All I have to say is not in any way to get out of trying hard to do right.
- But I do feel that no matter how hard i try, I'm far from perfect, ...
- I don't see any place in the Bible that says I will outgrow my need for Grace if I just keep on trucking as hard as I can go.
|
| quote: Restin |
Restin, pause and reflect for a moment on your statements above. This legalism is a recurring theme in most, if not all, of your comments.
You talk about honesty. Will you apply it here? Where has anyone (besides yourself) suggested that a true change of character is accomplished by one's own self-efforts?
Furthermore, your legalistic beliefs are made quite evident with your many comments that clearly state that if you do not sin, then you do not need Christ nor His grace.
Restin, if someone was not committing a sin at this very minute, does that mean that this person no longer need Christ or grace, at not least until the next minute when he does sin? That we need Christ and God's grace only while we in the middle of committing a sin?
Perhaps you believe that every breath we take is a sin, that we are constantly sinning in everything that we do. Then you must also believe that God is powerless to change our hearts, and that we cannot live Godly lives pleasing to Him. That God saves us in our sins, not from our sins.
Restin, after Christ's Second Coming, after the dead in Christ are raised uncorruptible and we are all changed in a twinkling of an eye, how many sinful traits will we have in our character? How much sin will we commit from then throughout eternity?
If you answer, "None", then surely you believe that we then never really needed Christ's sacrifice nor God's amazing grace. Since we are then perfect, why did we need a Savoiur?!
If you answer that we will still sin, then you need to read the Bible more thoroughly.
Just as an eternity of absolute perfection in God's kingdom does not nullify our need of what Christ did for us and what He gave us, neither would any perfection in this nano-second prior to His return nullify the same.
You say we can become perfect in our lifespan, so show me, that I can believe I can save myself and won't need the Grace of Christ if only I live long enough,try hard enough, and become equal to Him. |
| quote: Restin |
Restin, if you truly want to be real and honest in this serious life, then please give a specific quote of me or anyone else here who ever stated that we can become equal to God? Where has anyone said we can make it without His grace? Where has anyone said that you can save yourself?
Where is your honesty?
All who inherit eternal life will always be indebted to all facets of God's plan of redemption, including Christ and grace. No one in God's kingdom would have saved himself or herself.
But the same power by which Christ lived sinlessly is made readily available to us. God does not mock us by asking us to turn from sin and live Godly lives while not providing the means to do so.
Nor does God expect us to change by our own power. Our bodies are the temple of God, in which He desires to dwell. By the indwelling and infilling of the Holy Spirit, we can leave our lives of sin and live lives pleasing to God.
Restin, you ask to be shown how. I give you Christ, who was in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin. (Heb 4:15)
The same Father in heaven with whom Christ walked with and talked with every day of His life on earth, is the same Father we call Abba. And He loves us as He loves His Son. After Christ left earth, He sent His Spirit to us. God's ministering angels are also there for us.
Restin, all the power in heaven is at our disposal for defeating the enemy and for defeating sin in our lives. God does not leave it to our own futile efforts. If God be for us, who can be against us? (Romans 8:31)
Restin, Look to Christ, not to man!
It isn't that we CAN'T be perfect with perfect connection with Christ at every moment of life...It's that we DON'T maintain the perfect connection, ... |
| quote: Restin |
Why don't we? Is it because we think we cannot have that connection with Christ? Do we believe it is not possible to keep a connection with Christ? [ March 08, 2005, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: DenBorg ]
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/09/05 05:09 PM
However, if someone would explain why a last day for forgiveness of sins would lead to a last day of access to Jesus? Or have I missunderstood something here. |
| quote: västergötland |
Could you quote the statement that you are referring to?
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/09/05 06:28 PM
quote:
On the other hand asking God to point out sin is a prayer that doesnt go unanswered for very long.
This is true. Ellen White used to pray, "Lord, show me the worst of my case." That's a prayer that takes guts.
I think we're better off if we think of perfection in terms of thinking rather than doing. Jesus said, "as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." His mission was to make known the character of God, our Father, and the nature of His government ("the kingdom of God").
By beholding we become changed. The last message of mercy is a message of God's character. When we get that right, the rest will follow.
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/09/05 08:05 PM
DenBorg,
Admittedly, I am reading between the lines here. But I sense that some of this is more about the perception of people’s judgment of other people. You have to admit that in the back corner pews of many churches, it seems there sits those who look down their noses at everyone who isn’t exactly like them. I’m not speaking of genuine Christianity, but more about people who imply by their accusations of others, that they themselves have indeed arrived.
If someone knows someone who has lost faith because of judgmental people, when someone asks if “perfection” is possible, those personal experiences can resonate in one’s response to the question. It speaks of Matthew 7:3.
I don’t think it is accurate to assume that Restin has a heart full of legalism. Perhaps I am reading it wrong, but I understood Restin’s comments possibly in response to perceived legalism based on previous experience with “perfect” people.
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
I think we're better off if we think of perfection in terms of thinking rather than doing. Jesus said, "as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." His mission was to make known the character of God, our Father, and the nature of His government ("the kingdom of God").
Tom, AMEN! If we did that, perhaps…
quote:
…human tendency to be nosy and express oppinions about which neighbours will be continuing in error and which ones will continue doing righteousness...
…wouldn’t happen!
Jeff
Posted By: Cheri Fritz
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/09/05 08:26 PM
Dear Friends,
I have been reading and giving further thought to all that have posted.
quote:
Matthew
7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Now I will share my question of the heart which I had many years ago:
"Where are the fruits of God's remnant? Where are those that stand for Christ Jesus? Why cannot I see them in the church that proclaims they are the remnant?"
In order for people to know God they must taste truth living in us. They must see God working in us order to have faith.
Regardless of our opinion, we will be known by our fruits (which is God's power perfecting us). While it is true that we are not to look to man, it is man that is to be the example of the believer!
I personally like the questions, and their observations. They make my heart smile for God is working in their hearts!
May everyone here enjoy the blessed Savior and may we learn to be of one accord for Christ Jesus is coming very soon.
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri Fritz
Posted By: Daryl
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/09/05 10:51 PM
I also don’t think it is accurate to assume that Restin has a heart full of legalism.
That is a judgement that only God can truly make as He alone knows the heart.
Let us, therefore, be slow to make such judgemental remarks.
Posted By: Will
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/09/05 11:42 PM
I agree with what Daryl said. Instead of beating people over the head with the Bible and doing the devil's work, why not dig a little deeper, study abit more about it. Understand that not everyone see's things your way.
My understanding of perfection is that through Jesus Christ I can do all things, and one that really puts things in perspective:
quote:
1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
We can overcome sin, but we are not sinless..No one can say "Hey I'm sinless" cause then you have been deceived, but if by faith we trust that God will hand us the victory over our sins, whether you like saying bad words, watching porn, steal or whatever the case may be.. Giving it to God is the first step you can make and the only step you need to take.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/10/05 02:48 AM
Jeff, Daryl, and Will:
I am not making any assumptions about anyone. Neither am I judging anyone as a person, nor am I judging anyone's heart. Restin included.
Rather, I am judging a doctrine in light of the testimony of scripture. My objective is for someone, like Restin, to grow to a proper understanding of what the Bible teaches. Judging doctrinal errors is our responsibility. It is wrong to hide the truth from someone and simply allow them to believe a lie.
The doctrine in question is this:
If a person stops sinning, that person no longer needs Jesus Christ, nor grace and forgiveness or salvation at all. Such a person has earned and deserves eternal life.
Do you support such a belief? Is it Biblical? Is it important?
The above belief is legalism, and has been stated by Restin many times. It is not my desire for anyone to believe a lie.
If someone believed in communicating with the dead, would you consider it "beating them up" if someone showed them the dangers of that untrue belief?
I'm not beating her up. And if I came off as abrasive, I apologize for it. It would've been because of her statements saying I and others said that people can save themselves and not need Christ; which is an outright fabrication. Nobody ever said any such thing, except for Restin.
If we are to have a meaningful discussion, it is important for people not to fabricate statements and attribute them to your "opponent". This type of back-handed tactic has also been called, "building up a straw man, and knocking it down."
Posted By: Larry Kirkpatrick
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/10/05 03:43 AM
I appreciate this DenBorg. Everything thing you state in the above post is quite legitimate. LK
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/10/05 04:22 AM
Thank you, Larry. I appreciate your comment.
Restin, I apologize for being abrasive; I truly was not trying to be. But I was trying to clearly articulate my point so as not to be misunderstood, and I use a lot of formatting for that objective. I have seen many many online conversations go absolutely nowhere because either or both parties kept arguing against things that the other person never said. So I try to make it exceedingly clear as to what I am saying and what I am not saying, to try to prevent such a thing.
The online medium of communication is very different than that of verbal communication, and consequently is sometimes misunderstood. Sometimes emotions are perceived or projected into a post that were not present in the author, regardless of how careful the author tries to be. This is precisely why I prefixed my "pet and repeat" comments with a disclaimer in an earlier post of mine, to try to keep my comments from being perceived as an "attack".
Unfortunately, misunderstandings happen, regardless of how hard one tries to prevent them.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/10/05 05:04 AM
DenBorg,
I also appreciate what you are posting in response to what others are posting in this topic.
If, what somebody states comes across as legalistic, then that statement should be challenged, and again I appreciate your doing just that, however, we should be careful in stating that the person who posted it is also legalistic.
If we can keep this in mind, then there shouldn't be any problem discussing whatever it is that is being discussed.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/10/05 06:56 AM
We are all legalistic. Calling someone else legalistic probably isn't very helpful, however.
It's useful to be tactful when speaking to others. For example, instead of saying, "You're heart is full of legalism" one can say, "What you are saying appears to me to be legalistic." That communicates the same thought, but isn't so sharp.
Posted By: Restin
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/10/05 05:02 PM
Denborg, I appreciate your apology as a very Christian, considerate quality. Never easy to do, I know. I'm sorry too, if I've been too harsh to you or any others as well. However, I do have so-called "strong shoulders", and often test myself by coming back to the forum when I know I've said something "triggering". I even feel it's a test of my own spiritual maturing to be able to take some argument without getting all insecure and mortally threatened, as I used to do in the past. I give the Holy Spirit/God all the credit for the inner strength I have now that was so pitifully lacking in my early years. But I still have a long way to go, to be ready for the last day on earth. I've been concerned for some time about our SDA assumptions about the real meaning of Jacob's Trouble.
I'm glad that we all can "debate" in these issues without it falling into a shouting match.
But I was sounding legalistic only because I was trying to mirror the legalistic comments here about perfection. And that perfection is about the time of the end when (the SDA believe) we have to attain perfection to be ready for the time of trouble. It's about the belief that when Jesus leaves the Most Holy place, He supposedly leaves us to our own resources then. I was attempting to show how deep and broad is the concept of perfection, and that we fail to see how much it includes when we claim that we can/must attain it in our lifetime. I'm saying the struggle of Jacob is over his perfect relation to Christ, not his own literal, absolute perfection. I say it because, even tho God admonishes us to be perfect (as His wish) He knows we won't do it. We just don't know how very much is included when we must be perfect, to be ready for the end time. I think we always need Christ's righteousness up to the end of the last day on earth, to cover our shortcoming.
Mainly, I'm suggesting that Christ's mere bodily absence from the Most Holy place doesn't mean His coverage goes out the door with him. I just don't think that's what EGW means about Jacob's Trouble. I don't think she means we have to stand on our own merits alone without Christ. That's what I've tried to convey.
I've learned from all the comments on it here. I believe we need to shake up these issues and think about topics so important. Maybe the best result of this discussion is that it really would be best to read anew the book of Romans. As I said, that's what I'm doing this week.I think that would be more acceptable to Jesus, in the pursuit of perfection, than anything else I could present here.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/10/05 06:01 PM
For my and maybe even others benefit, could someone draw the outlines of what Jacobs Trouble is all about? What does it mean, what is it based upon, where does it lead?
In the verses posted so far by Larry, as far as I can tell none of them point to a distant God, except possibly for the rev 22 verse towards the ones who will continue in error. In the others, as trouble increases the troubled and God draw closer to eachother.
In reading Isaiah there is the picture of God desperately asking, "how many times must I shake your comfort for you to remember Me? how much trouble can you take before realiseing that you must trust only in Me?"
But maybe I have missunderstood what this is about. Maybe it doesnt say that in the end Gods people would have to fend for themselves alone.
/Thomas
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/11/05 07:05 AM
We are all legalistic. |
| quote: Tom Ewall |
That is not true. (please note that I am referring to Tom's statement, not to Tom personally)
Calling someone else legalistic probably isn't very helpful, however.
It's useful to be tactful when speaking to others. For example, instead of saying, "You're heart is full of legalism" one can say, "What you are saying appears to me to be legalistic." That communicates the same thought, but isn't so sharp. |
| quote: Tom Ewall |
Point on tactfullness is well taken.
But I would like to point out yet again that I never called anyone, including Restin, legalistic. Neither have I said anything about anyone's heart being full of legalism.
I did, however, call certain beliefs legalistic.
You know? And I hope everyone pays close attention to what I'm about to say. I am surprised and confused (shocked probably fits best) about the following 3 things:- That I am being accused by several people of things I never did.
- I never judged Restin as a person
- I never judged her heart
- I never assumed anything about her nor her heart
- I never called her herself legalistic, nor have I said anything about her heart; I only called a certain belief legalistic, a belief which she communicated several times.
- In a completely objective review of my comments, while I did not judge Restin, nor her heart, nor make any assumptions about her, I did, however, directly and blatantly call her honesty into question, and none of you said anything about that.
- With the exception of one other person here, no one has expressed any concern about Restin fabricating statements and ascribing them to Larry and myself. In other words, she made multiple claims that Larry and I said things we never ever said and then she attacked those statements.
If I am going to be publicly flogged, so to speak, let it be for things of which I am guilty, namely the harsh tone of two of my posts (as unintentional as that was) and the fact that I called her honesty into question (which I have to admit was intentional).
And if you are going to criticize and judge one person for bad behaviour, do not excuse another's bad behaviour at the same time.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/11/05 07:48 AM
If we think we are not in any way legalistic, we are suffering under a delusion. Legalism is very pronounced and subtle in all of us. It is what makes unbelief so natural for us.
Legalism has at its heart the notion that we can gain God's favor by things we do or refrain from doing (including faith). It was represented in the Pharisee's comment, "I thank you that I am not like other men, especially like that publican."
Here's a gut-check question. When you look at the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican, who do you identify with? Is it not the Publican? Do you not think, "That you Lord that I am not like other men, especially not like that Pharisee?"
The following is from the chapter in Christ's Object Lessons discussing the Publican and the Pharisee:
quote:
No man can of himself understand his errors. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" Jer. 17:9. The lips may express a poverty of soul that the heart does not acknowledge. While speaking to God of poverty of spirit, the heart may be swelling with the conceit of its own superior humility and exalted righteousness. In one way only can a true knowledge of self be obtained. We must behold Christ. It is ignorance of Him that makes men so uplifted in their own righteousness. When we contemplate His purity and excellence, we shall see our own weakness and poverty and defects as they really are. (COL 159)
The very first step in beginning the process of being cured of legalism is to recognize we have the problem. If we say we see, then our blindness remains.
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/10/05 08:33 PM
If we think we are not in any way legalistic, we are suffering under a delusion. |
| quote: Tom Ewall |
I still disagree that everyone is legalistic.
- the Pharisee's comment, "I thank you that I am not like other men, especially like that publican."
- Do you not think, "That you Lord that I am not like other men, especially not like that Pharisee?"
- ... the heart may be swelling with the conceit of its own superior humility and exalted righteousness.
|
| quote: Tom Ewall |
What is being described here is PRIDE, not legalism. While the two may often go hand-in-hand, they are not synonymous.
I would agree that we all battle with pride, to one degree or another. But I still do not believe, as you have stated, that everyone believes we can obtain salvation by our own merits and self effort, or that we can earn or win God's love or favor by the same (i.e. legalism)
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/10/05 09:07 PM
quote:
But I still do not believe, as you have stated, that everyone believes we can obtain salvation by our own merits and self effort, or that we can earn or win God's love or favor by the same (i.e. legalism)
I suppose it depends on how narrowly one focuses a definition, but I would assert that in the same way that pride is subtle and the quote I cited applies to it, the same applies to legalism.
I gave the gut-check question for pharisees. How did you do? I think it's a universal reaction pretty much that people who are asked who they identify with say the Publican. Nobody wants to be like the Pharisee. But that's what we are by nature. We say in our hearts, "Thank God I'm like the Publican, and not the Pharisee" thereby proving that we are like the Pharisee!
In terms of not doing things to earn salvation, I agree with you on that point. That is, there are few people, at least few SDA's, who consciously believe that to be the case. However, when we deal with gaining God's favor, especially taking into account unconscious fears, it is at this point that I believe we are all legalists.
That is, there is, at the very least deep within our hearts, a fear that God does not really accept and love us just as we are, sinners and sinful, but something within us thinks that we obtain favor from God by the things we do, or by things we refrain from doing. It's extremely difficult to accept the fact that God just loves, period.
It's a wonderful idea, though, and God is a wonderful God! I believe that understanding and internalizing this principle (that are favor with God is not dependent on us) is at the heart of overcoming sin (not to say there aren't other important matters -- there are, such as sympathizing with God's pain).
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/10/05 09:48 PM
I suppose it depends on how narrowly one focuses a definition, but I would assert that in the same way that pride is subtle and the quote I cited applies to it, the same applies to legalism.
... ... ... ... ...
In terms of not doing things to earn salvation, I agree with you on that point. |
| quote: Tom Ewall |
Well, we may have to respectfully agree to disagree on this. At least we agree on some of the points.
You may have missed the fact I edited the very last part of my previous post to include winning the love or favor of God as part of the definition of 'legalism'. You were probably in the middle of composing your reply when I made that revision.
However, when we deal with gaining God's favor, especially taking into account unconscious fears, it is at this point that I believe we are all legalists.
That is, there is, at the very least deep within our hearts, a fear that God does not really accept and love us just as we are, sinners and sinful, but something within us thinks that we obtain favor from God by the things we do, or by things we refrain from doing. |
| quote: Tom Ewall |
The problem here is UNBELIEF, which then leads to legalism if the person desires to obtain God's love/favor. Believe it or not, there are some people who do not want God's love or favor, sad to say. Some people actually hate God, and could not care less about His love and favor. Sadly, some just want to finish their life here on earth, and then just die.
It's extremely difficult to accept the fact that God just loves, period. |
| quote: Tom Ewall |
Extremely difficult to accept? Yes. But impossible to accept? No.
I don't think it safe to assume that no one in all of humanity has accepted the fact that God just loves us period. Different people grapple with that concept to differing degrees. Some people have accepted it; others haven't.
But just because God loves us period, that does not therefore mean that He is not pleased when we obey or do what is right, and that He is displeased when we do evil. Some people may be frustrated with a problem sin in their life because they know it displeases and hurts God, not because they're afraid God does not love them anymore.
It's a wonderful idea, though, and God is a wonderful God! I believe that understanding and internalizing this principle (that are favor with God is not dependent on us) is at the heart of overcoming sin (not to say there aren't other important matters -- there are, such as sympathizing with God's pain). |
| quote: Tom Ewall |
Amen! While we were still enemies with God, He came to our aid as a Friend. How's that for just loving us, period?!
Posted By: Jeff
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/10/05 11:05 PM
DenBorg, you did not use the phrase “heart full of legalism”. I did. What you said was this:
quote:
Restin, pause and reflect for a moment on your statements above. This legalism is a recurring theme in most, if not all, of your comments.
As you pointed out, face-to-face communication is different from written. Face-to-face we use non-verbal communication (sometimes intentional and sometimes not) that augments our spoken words to form the overall message. With written words, we can’t see the same non-verbal cues to “read between the lines” as we use face-to-face. However, even with written words we still communicate non-verbal cues (either intentionally or not) that combine with our written words to form the overall message.
Though you didn’t use explicit language that you “judged Restin as a person”, “called her herself legalist”, etc, the message recieved conveyed something different. Non-verbal cues such as the tenor of the above quoted statement and others, questioning her "honesty", combined with the fact that nearly every dissenting paragraph began with Restin's name, gave the post a more personal tone, seemingly aimed more at Restin than simply debating the points.
I do think that you made some important points, and it would have been much better to have just made the points and left the personal stuff out.
As for: quote:
I did, however, directly and blatantly call her honesty into question, and none of you said anything about that.
Actually, I was getting to that, but several posts have gone by since I’ve had time. Your questioning of her honesty was surprising to me, especially since my understanding of what she said seemed different from how you were responding to it. As I understood it, it wasn’t as much a matter of honesty as it was perception.
I don’t mean (and I’m sure no one else does either) to publicly flog you any more than you meant to publicly flog Restin. In this post, my intention is only to explain why I perceived your posts the way I have. You’ve apologized and Restin has accepted. I also want to apologize to you for misunderstanding your intentions.
Now that we know more of where everyone is coming from, maybe we can get on with the discussion. Perhaps the question of legalism (ie, are we all legalist in some way?) belongs to a different thread.
Jeff
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/11/05 01:01 AM
To recap my point, as it seems to have been lost on the recent events above, and to set the records straight concerning the things I've said and the things I have not said:
Disclaimer: None of the following comments are about any person nor about anyone's heart. Despite the fact that there may be references to specific individuals or to things they have said, the following comments are not judgements of those individuals. Directing replies to an individual, and referring to individuals, do not automatically constitute judgement of these individuals. These following comments are only about certain beliefs, doctrines, thoughts, or ideas. Please keep that in mind as you read further.
I would like to point out, and feel free to reread my posts to verify, I have not ever once commented on the implications of the bodily absense of our Lord from the Most Holy Place immediately prior to His return; not in this thread nor in any other thread on any message board. While I may personally lean towards believing the SDA viewpoint concerning the perfection of character in God's people at that time, I have not completely made up my mind. Furthermore, I see it as a secondary issue, albeit an important one; one to be debated over vigorously and passionately with love and respect as fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, but not one to divide over.
That said, I would also like to point out that my main point in this thread concerns the implications of no longer sinning, regardless of whether anyone believes it to be possible this side of heaven. I personally believe it is possible to not sin anymore, and I have previously stated the reasons why. Not that I believe it possible by man's own efforts, though I've been accused of saying that despite my several explicit statements to the contrary. Others disagree as to the possibility of no longer sinning.
One person in this thread in particular (whom I shall not name at this point as to hopefully avoid being again accused of personal attacks) as well as many others in other threads in other message boards (whom shall also remain nameless because it's not germane to this and I also do not remember them), have outright stated that the implication of completely ceasing from sin is that we would no longer need the plan of salvation and would automatically be entitled to eternal life. It is this implication, this belief, which I am judging in the light and testimony of scripture, not any individual. To say something about a belief that someone has presented to the public is not the same thing as saying something about the individual him/herself, regardless of whether that reply is made directly or indirectly to that individual.
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Rm 3:23; 5:12) That is a given and unchangeable fact. For this very reason, we all owe a penalty, namely death; for the wages of sin is death (Rm 6:23). There is no getting around this fact. Even if all of us were to suddenly and immediately become perfect in both character and body and remained so from now throughout eternity, that would still not circumvent the fact that we are guilty and owe that penalty, regardless of how we became perfect, whether we did it ourselves or if God zapped each and every one of us with perfection. note -- this is not an endorsement of the idea that we can become perfect by self effort.
Everyone of us has a choice. We can either choose to pay the penalty ourselves with our very own life; or we can accept Christ's sacrifice as payment in full and accept God's gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, and in so doing turn away from a life of sin and as new creatures (2 Cor5:17; Gal 6:15) walk in newness of life (Rm 6:24) as His wormanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them (Eph 2:10). It is that simple; regardless of whether or not we become perfect (and as God's children we are promised perfection -- 1 Cor 15:52), nothing changes the above nor absolves our need of a Saviour and God's plan of redemption.
This is where some strongly disagree. Some say that if we became perfect in character before Christ's return, then we don't need Christ and are automatically entitled to eternal life. It is this belief that I label as legalism (not any specific individual or heart).
This is why I disagree with their belief:
Becoming perfect in character does not, nor cannot, absolve past guilt. If you are cited for breaking a traffic law, and if you never break a traffic law ever again, does that mean you don't have to pay the ticket? I think it safe to say that the answer would be a resounding and unanimous NO!
So then why do some of the same people believe that becoming perfect in character takes care of our spiritual tickets already issued to us?
One day, as sons and daughters of God, we will become perfect in both character and in body. The only difference between becoming perfect in character now and in becoming perfect at the second coming is TIMING (okay, and also the fact that the latter includes physical perfection).
But that perfection, whether now or later, has no ability whatsoever to pay the debt we owe for sinning in the first place.
And the belief that perfection absolves past sin is a legalistic belief. The belief as to the possibility of perfection is completely irrelevant; the belief itself that perfection atones for sin is legalism.
The only way for there to be remission of sin is by the shedding of blood. (Heb 9:21-23; Lev 16:15-18; 17:11) The wages of sin is death (Rm 6:23). Notice that God does not say, "The wages of sin is death, unless you can promise never sin again and keep that promise." Regardless of perfection now or later, we still either have to pay the penalty with our own lives or by accepting Christ as our Substitute.
Just as an eternity of complete perfection in God's kingdom to come in no wise means we never needed God's plan of redemption, neither would perfection of character now absolve our need of Christ or any facet of God's plan of redemption.
Now, if you are so inclined to disagree with any or with all of what I have just presented, so be it. I am not here to change your minds; that is not my responsibility. It is the duty of the Holy Spirit alone to convict souls in regard to the truth. It is your responsibility to study God's Word in search of truth and understanding.
But simply because you may disagree, please do not make up untrue things about things I've said, such as Dennis claims to be perfect or near perfect. Please don't say that I said we can grab eternal life by our own efforts apart from Christ. Please don't say that I said we can become perfect in character without God's help. Please don't say that I said we can become as God Himself. Please don't say this is only a personal attack. Please don't say I am judging the hearts and motives of others simply because I disagree with specific doctrines and beliefs that they have stated.
If you disagree, then please simply disagree and leave it at that.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/11/05 01:02 AM
This is, IMHO, turning out to be a quite confusing thread. What are we really discussing here? Perfectness? Restins posts? Dens and Jeffs replies to these said posts? The linguistic characteristics of message board communication?
This is turning sillier post by post...
/Thomas
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/11/05 01:03 AM
Denborg, I appreciate your apology as a very Christian, considerate quality. |
| quote: Restin |
Thank you. In addition to my abrasiveness, please include my calling your honesty into question as part of my apology.
I'm sorry too, if I've been too harsh to you or any others as well. |
| quote: Restin |
Your being harsh was not a problem with me; it didn't bother me a bit.
What did bother me, although it doesn't seem to bother anyone else except for one, was the fact that you made several claims that Larry and I said things we never ever said. As I believe everyone who has read the posts truly do know what statements I am referring to, I don't feel it necessary to list them here.
And I am not the only one who has asked that you back up your claims as to what we have said.
I guess I'll just have to keep in mind, that if I quote a comment and then make my comment about the idea or doctrine conveyed, there will always be those who will adjust the focus of my comments from the idea/doctrine to the person him/herself who expressed the idea/doctrine; especially if I reply directly to that person.
Let's just forget the whole sordid affair.
Posted By: Larry Kirkpatrick
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/11/05 01:29 AM
I see no evidence of interest by Restin in backing up her remarks. I know she cannot because the parties in question never said or suggested such things as she inferred. I am not holding my breath waiting for her to do anything at this point. I think some people find it much easier to cast about claims that certain ideas--concerning which they are often utterly oblivious--are legalism. When they either cannot or have no interest in accurately addressing ideas which they are already prejudiced against before they type their first word, I find such interaction useless.
Those who are interested in undestanding will show it, those who are bent to their own views, no matter how right or wrong, will manifest that.
We are wiser to use terms that have an inspired basis. Legalism does not. EGW used the term "a legal religion" and that does. But the common conception of legalism is just antinomianism hiding under the contemporary term. Hostility toward present truth is hostility toward Jesus, its Author and finisher.
Claims were made by Restin, they were not backed up, they won't be backed up, it appears the mind may be closed, hence in my mind the matter is closed. Shalom.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/11/05 02:06 AM
quote:
The problem here is UNBELIEF, which then leads to legalism if the person desires to obtain God's love/favor. Believe it or not, there are some people who do not want God's love or favor, sad to say. Some people actually hate God, and could not care less about His love and favor. Sadly, some just want to finish their life here on earth, and then just die.
Well this is an interesting point I hadn't thought of, that is, those who are unbelievers and hate God. I suspect, however, even these (and atheists as well) deep down have a warped view of God in mind, which leads them to think they must do something to earn His favor. Romans 1 says all are without excuse because God has made Himself known to all, so I think I'll stick with me original view that all are legalists (although few recognize this).
"It's extremely difficult to accept the fact that God just loves, period." (Tom)
quote:
Extremely difficult to accept? Yes. But impossible to accept? No.
I don't think it safe to assume that no one in all of humanity has accepted the fact that God just loves us period. Different people grapple with that concept to differing degrees. Some people have accepted it; others haven't.
Well I suppose in the same way one could say it's possible someone (other than Christ) has lived perfectly. That is, I would say it's about as likely that someone is not in any way legalistic. It's far easier to be legalistic than most people think!
I've known some people who have communicated the Gospel very beautifully, but if you were to ask them if they had any legalism, they would unqualfiedly respond "yes." Again I suppose it's a similar question to asking someone if they're perfect. No one can answer the question "yes" without disqualifying themselves.
However, I will say that the 144,000 will not be legalists. They will have learned to love, growing into the full statue of Christ. And we certainly have the privilege to be on this trek!
quote:
But just because God loves us period, that does not therefore mean that He is not pleased when we obey or do what is right, and that He is displeased when we do evil. Some people may be frustrated with a problem sin in their life because they know it displeases and hurts God, not because they're afraid God does not love them anymore.
Refraining from sin because it displeases and hurts God is certainly following much more with the Spirit of Christ than being afraid that God does not love them, which thought smacks of egocentrism. However, legalism is a very subtle thing.
It sounds like we can agree that:
1) Legalism is very subtle, and more rampant than many think.
2) The solution is to believe and appreciate God's love, and recognize that we cannot gain God's favor on the basis of what we do or refrain from doing.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/11/05 02:16 AM
Since everybody is interested in my opinion, I'll give it. When I was reading through the post's regarding Restin, my immediate response was that the comments were very sharp and personal in nature. I chose not to comment on it, but have joined in since others have commented on it.
I gave an approach which has worked pretty well for me. Mike and I have been around on this, and he has been kind enough to abide almost 100% to what I have suggested. He used to say things like, "This is wrong." "You are way out of line" and so on. (I hope he doesn't mind my picking on him.) I suggested that these comments are much less abrasive when prefaced by something mitigating them, such as "in my opinion" or "as I see thinigs", or "it appears to me." With these magic words, you can say just about anything -- e.g. "in my opinion, you are an idiot!"
I making the point in jest, but it's a serious point. Jeff is correct. We are reading things and don't have the benefit of tone of voice, so it behooves us to tone down our rhetoric at least 1 notch, and probably 3 or 4 would be better, as things which are written may come across much stronger than spoken.
I want to thank Mike for having been much more charitable in his remarks, which has made the dialogs I have had with him much more pleasant.
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/11/05 06:18 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Well I suppose in the same way one could say it's possible someone (other than Christ) has lived perfectly.
If one believes the Word of God, I don't think one could say that. It is written, "For all have sinned..."
Later on in your comment, you expressed a belief that the 144,000 won't be legalistic. Personally, I don't think God holds back His power from everyone to overcome sin except for Christ and for the 144,000; I believe He makes His power and abiding presense available to all who would have it. Therefore, I don't believe, as do some, that it is necessary or a given that we must continue to sin; especially in light of multiple scriptures that instruct us to turn away from sin.
It seems that you and I have a good deal of common ground in agreement.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/11/05 06:44 AM
I must be having a bad day as far as lack of clarity is concerned. Not just here, but everywhere it seems I'm saying things very clearly. Well, I've slept poorly and had a headache, so maybe that explains it.
When I said, "Well I suppose in the same way one could say it's possible someone (other than Christ) has lived perfectly." I didn't mean lived their whole perfectly put was using the subjective to refer to someone living perfectly now. That's probably not very clear either. Let me try it another way.
In the same way one could say that no one now is living perfectly without sin (as one could ask, show me such a person), one could also say no one now is total non-legalistic. It's theoretically possible that such a person exists, but it's doubtful anyone has seen such a one.
Regarding overcoming sin and the 144,000, the issue is not that God holds back power, but that victory is dependent on light. For example, before the light on the Sabbath was known, there were those who were following Christ to the best of their ability who were nonetheless sinning in an absolute sense (a sense which would require Christ's ministration in the MHP). In order for sin to be brought to an end, it is necessary that there be more light.
God began to give this light in 1888 -- light which would fill the earth with glory, light which was the beginning of the latter rain -- but that light was resisted. Until that light is given, not just the beginning of the latter rain, but it's fullness, it doesn't matter how much one tries, one will not be able to absolutely overcome sin (I'm not just talking about known sin here, but any sin, which would require the continued presenece of Christ as MHP).
It's not just a matter of individual disposition, but there is a corporate element as well. We are all one body, and the victory of the foot, for example, depends on the cooperation of the eye.
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/11/05 06:59 AM
As to what happened earlier, I for one truly don't care to hear anything more about it.
While many have made very valid points concerning tone of voice, etc and they are well taken, it seems everyone is more concerned with their misunderstanding and misperception of my comments than they are of the blatant putting-of-words in another's mouth and the pursuant hostility towards those words that were never "spoken". Somehow I can't help but believe that if I were the one who put words in someone else's mouth, it would not have gone overlooked.
So if it is just the same to you all, I agree with Larry and consider the matter closed, and would prefer not to talk about it any further. Thank you.
Posted By: DenBorg
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/11/05 07:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
I must be having a bad day as far as lack of clarity is concerned. Not just here, but everywhere it seems I'm saying things very clearly. Well, I've slept poorly and had a headache, so maybe that explains it.
When I said, "Well I suppose in the same way one could say it's possible someone (other than Christ) has lived perfectly." I didn't mean lived their whole perfectly put was using the subjective to refer to someone living perfectly now. That's probably not very clear either. Let me try it another way.
This clarification was clear; I understand waht you mean here and agree with you.
You're not the only one going through a bad spell of being misunderstood. ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif)
Hopefully it will quickly pass for us.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/12/05 07:37 AM
quote:
Originally posted by DenBorg:
So if it is just the same to you all, I agree with Larry and consider the matter closed, and would prefer not to talk about it any further. Thank you.
I agree that more than enough has been said about this, therefore, let us focus on the topic.
Posted By: Will
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/11/05 09:48 PM
I believe that through Christ He will hand us the victory over our sins. I have issues with how the title of the topic is phrased since it will naturally lead to "known or unknown defective traits", then this leads to the "light of God revealing all" and some will say that "it is the work of a lifetime", others will say "its at once" etc etc.. been down this road way too many times. I know the script by memory.
Lok at all the people that Jesus chose.. Let see we have a racist as one of the 12, an adulterer,murderer,drunk,incesteous relations, traitors and even one who denied him, and all 12 left running, and fell asleep.. Yes very astute and troopers they were. All happening by God's chosen people.
My point here is that these men had been in the very presence of God, and have seen the Father in Jesus Christ the Son of God who dwelt among men, so their work was over a lifetime..
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/12/05 08:51 PM
Everybody believes perfection is possible. Even Restin. It's just that not everybody agrees as to when it happens. Some people believe it won't happen until after Jesus returns, some believe it happens gradually, and others believe it happens the moment we're born again.
The problem with believing it happens gradually is the example of Jesus. What do we do with His example? Jesus did not overcome sinful traits of character by outgrowing them one at a time over the course of a lifetime. In fact, Jesus started off without any defective traits of character. He successfully resisted the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by His sinful, fallen, human nature, therefore, He never developed a bad character trait that had to be confessed and crucified.
Jesus lived His life like a born again believer. He is not an example of someone who refuses to obey the word of God, or who cannot seem to kick a bad habit, or who gradually overcomes lesser character imperfections. Instead, the example of Jesus is a demonstration of what life is like when born again believers are connected to the Father, when they continue to partake of the divine nature.
In order for born again believers to imitate the example of Jesus they must first crucify their old man habits of sin, their defective traits of character. Once their old man is dead and buried, they can receive the sinless seed or mind of the new man, which in turn enables them to partake of the divine nature, which then empowers them to imitate the holy example of Jesus.
Born again believers cannot imitate the example of Jesus if they have unknown or unconquered defective traits of character to overcome. Remember, a trait of character, whether good or bad, is the result of yielding repeatedly to the influence of God or Satan. As such, there is no such thing as an unknown trait of character. Since there is no sinful trait or temptation too difficult, in Christ, to resist, the mere existence of an unconquered fallen trait, therefore, is actually nothing more than a cherished sin.
What becomes of a confessed, crucified and conquered fallen trait of character? Is it something that will never tempt us again? Once dead and buried are we impervious to future temptations related to it? Just because we are tempted by it again does that mean we haven't actually overcome it?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/12/05 11:17 PM
"Everybody believes perfection is possible."
But everybody has a different idea as to what perfection is, and how and when it is accomplished. So everybody judges the success or failure of it, according to the idea of perfection they have.
The most common concept of perfection is absence of flaw; inability to improve upon. Naturally where you have such perfection, there is no need for: mercy, grace, longsuffering, patience, etc.; all of which are virtues of God's character. What does that tell us about that kind of perfection?
Perfection in God's sight however is the fullness of: mercy, grace, longsuffering, forgiveness, goodness, patience...; all of the characteristics that are there to deal with imperfection. He wants us to be full of his spirit, of which the fruits are: mercy, grace, longsuffering, forgiveness, goodness, patience...! Is that our concept of perfection?
Let us see with God's judgement/love today, so that when we meet him, we may be as he is. In this manner we are overcomers over all sin and temptation.
Shalom
Posted By: Cheri Fritz
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/13/05 12:47 AM
Greetings Brother Mike,
We are told: quote:
"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Matthew 6:19-24.
quote:
There is nothing that Satan fears so much as that the people of God shall clear the way by removing every hindrance, so that the Lord can pour out His Spirit upon a languishing church and an impenitent congregation. If Satan had his way, there would never be another awakening, great or small, to the end of time. But we are not ignorant of his devices. It is possible to resist his power. When the way is prepared for the Spirit of God, the blessing will come. Satan can no more hinder a shower of blessing from descending upon God's people than he can close the windows of heaven that rain cannot come upon the earth. Wicked men and devils cannot hinder the work of God, or shut out His presence from the assemblies of His people, if they will, with subdued, contrite hearts, confess and put away their sins, and in faith claim His promises. Every temptation, every opposing influence, whether open or secret, may be successfully resisted, "not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts" (Zech. 4:6). {1SM 124.2}
We are preparing for the return of the Lord, but before this we must be prepare to receive the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. At this time, like those Brethren and Sisters in the upper room, the children of the Lord will be renounced of self. I truly believe this means that temptation will not have a hold, just as it did not have a hold on our Savior!
Your question:
quote:
Just because we are tempted by it again does that mean we haven't actually overcome it?
While we may yet hear temptation there comes a time it will not mean anything to us if we love the Lord. Our work today is to continue to learn to deny self in all aspects of our faithful walk with Christ.
If temptation holds something in our hearts causing us to ponder it, then the temptation has a hold on us and we must go before the Lord, with fasting and praying to ask God to show you have to remove the tare of our hearts.
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri Fritz
Posted By: Daryl
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/13/05 01:22 AM
quote:
Mike Lowe posted: "Instead, the example of Jesus is a demonstration of what life is like when born again believers are connected to the Father, when they continue to partake of the divine nature."
I am not questioning whether or not Jesus as a baby was connected to the Father, I am just asking how Jesus, as a baby, was connected to the Father?
Posted By: Will
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/13/05 06:10 AM
So which camp do you belong to Mike?
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Cheri Fritz
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/13/05 12:44 PM
Greetings Brother Daryl,
The first connection that any child has with the Heavenly Father is through the mother. The mother has a great role in life. She will be the very first avenue.
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Cheri Fritz
Posted By: Daryl
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/13/05 04:41 PM
Are you saying then that Jesus was connected to the Father through Mary, the mother?
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/13/05 06:23 PM
"Connected" is an odd term to use, but Jesus was "connected" to His Father by faith. Of course, as an infant, He had the faith of an infant.
We know that it is possible for the Holy Spirit to work with infants, even in the womb, from the experience of John the Baptist.
quote:
It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. (13MR 19)
It is probably prudent for us not to speculate too much regarding Christ's infancy/very young childhood, but we can assert the following:
1) Christ was tempted as all are tempted.
2) He did not sin.
3) He did not use any means to overcome which are not available to us.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/14/05 04:11 AM
Mike wrote.
There seems to be a lot of people who believe it is not possible to completely overcome sin before Jesus returns. So, what about it? Are they right? Is it possible to overcome all of our defects before the close of probation, or before we are changed in the twinkling of an eye? If not, why not? But if so, when can we expect to experience freedom from sin?
Unquote.
My view in regards of this question.
It is by grace we are saved through faith.
We are justified by our faith in Christ without the deeds of the law (Romans 3:20-22), because the law could not justify us due to the weakness of our flesh (Romans 8:3).
God justifying us for our faith in Christ without the deeds of the law taking into account, means it is by his grace we are justified thanks to our faith, and not our deeds, even though there is a law as a standard of judgment and righteousness.
This means, against the law, we are not perfect, therefore, the law could not justify us unto life. But the grace of God still justify us unto heaven for eternal life, which is against the righteousness of his law, that demands our life. But thanks to Christ, as our Mediator, his blood forgives our sins, and we stand before God as righteous as we never sinned, covered by the righteous blood of Christ, covered by his righteousness.
So, I my self think, that to stand before God at one time all alone in our self righteousness, is something impossible. We still need the grace of God, even until the door of probation close.
After the closing of probation, we remain in his grace, in Christ righteousness and not in our own, but we could no longer sin, for we are already destined to be lift up to heaven. How does it works, even we still have our own will and Satan is working fully hard to deceive us? Maybe by God protecting us against temptation, Satan is no longer allowed to temp us, and our own will is perfected by the Holy Spirit to do what the Spirit wants, or maybe because at that time we fully understood the love of God and our hearts willfully follows the Spirit.
In His love
James S
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/14/05 04:14 AM
Tom wrote:
It's God's job to perfect us. It's not something we accomplish by our effort, but something God does -- if we do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.
Unquote.
I agree! Does this means that perfection and sinless is a state that depends to our choice? If so, is a sinless and perfect life possible before the closing of probation?
In His love
James S
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/14/05 06:37 AM
Regarding the post to Mike, to justify means to "set right" as in justifying text so that it lines up. Because by nature we are not in harmony with God, it stands to reason that no amount of effort will result in our setting ourselves right. God must set us right, which He does by faith. But once we are set right, we have been set right, meaning we are in harmony with the law, because the law is the standard by which one judges what being set right means.
It's possible to say the same thing without reference to the law. Before one knows Christ, one is alienated in one's mind. But the blood of Christ reconciles us, because in seeing the character of God revealed we are brought into harmony with Him. The law is written in the heart, meaning it becomes our desire to do His will. We are justified, set right.
Regarding perfection, I think it is possible for us to be like Christ before the close of probation. The similarity is not on the basis of personal effort, but of faith, resulting in our seeing Christ as He really is as we grow in understanding how good the Good News is.
Posted By: John H.
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/14/05 08:31 AM
Certainly those saints who will be alive after the close of probation will have ceased sinning totally.
Revelation 22:11,12 --
11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
All cases are set for good or evil in verse 11, and this is shortly before Jesus returns. So in the time between, the saints don't sin at all, in thought, word, or deed.
That doesn't mean they don't need Jesus any more. It's true that they won't need forgiveness any more; indeed there won't be any forgiveness available at that time since Jesus will have finished His heavenly high priestly ministry.
BUT they will still need the sustaining power of the Holy Spirit to see them through, so there will still be need of a Savior.
Character isn't changed when Jesus returns:
"When He comes He is not to cleanse us of our sins, to remove from us the defects in our characters, or to cure us of the infirmities of our tempers and dispositions. If wrought for us at all, this work will all be accomplished before that time. When the Lord comes, those who are holy will be holy still. Those who have preserved their bodies and spirits in holiness, in sanctification and honor, will then receive the finishing touch of immortality. But those who are unjust, unsanctified, and filthy will remain so forever. No work will then be done for them to remove their defects and give them holy characters. The Refiner does not then sit to pursue His refining process and remove their sins and their corruption. This is all to be done in these hours of probation. It is now that this work is to be accomplished for us."
{2T 355.1}
As for
when people can or will become perfect: EGW wrote that some were mighty close in her day:
"Be ambitious, for the Master's glory, to cultivate every grace of character. In every phase of your character building you are to please God. This you may do; for Enoch pleased Him though living in a degenerate age. And there are Enochs in this our day."
{COL 332.1}
There's no reason to think that there aren't some people approaching that standard even now.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/14/05 06:24 PM
John B, yes, our definition of the word or concept "perfection" definitely affects our understanding of the doctrine of perfection. I believe, so far as salvation is concerned, perfection means living in harmony with our personal convictions and conscience according to the light God has revealed to us.
Will, which camp do I subscribe to? The one that teaches we can live up to the light God has revealed to us.
Cheri, amen! God is more than sufficient to save us, to empower us to walk in the light - just like Jesus did. Thank you.
Tom, by having the faith of Jesus we can stay connected to the Father, we can imitate the example of Jesus. From rebirth to the return of Christ it is possible to live perfectly in harmony with the truth as it is in Jesus.
John, the experience of the 144,000, so far as living without committing a known sin, is possible now. The latter rain does not help them to overcome sin, rather it helps them to proclaim the 3AMs with renewed strength and power.
We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. Jesus was born perfect and He became perfect as He grew in grace and knowledge and experience. The same thing applies to born again believers - while they are abiding in Christ as Christ abode in the Father.
Posted By: Will
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/14/05 06:30 PM
I agree John. The Bible tells us so, and thats good enough for me
Amen Mike! I know what you are saying, and I thank God for continually guiding us in His paths as we follow Christ.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Daryl
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/15/05 07:10 AM
Mike Lowe posted that "Jesus was born perfect."
What do you mean, Mike, that Jesus Christ was born perfect?
Wasn't He born as we are born, as a human baby with the same human nature that we were born with?
What is the difference between the baby Jesus at birth, and the baby Mike at birth, the baby Daryl at birth, so on and so forth?
Posted By: Cheri Fritz
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/15/05 02:50 PM
Greetings Brother Daryl,
Your question: quote:
I am not questioning whether or not Jesus as a baby was connected to the Father, I am just asking how Jesus, as a baby, was connected to the Father?
quote:
When the Majesty of heaven became a babe and was entrusted to Mary, she did not have much to offer for the precious gift. She brought to the altar only two turtledoves, the offering appointed for the poor; but they were an acceptable sacrifice to the Lord. She could not present rare treasures such as the wise men of the East came to Bethlehem to lay before the Son of God; yet the mother of Jesus was not rejected because of the smallness of her gift. It was the willingness of her heart that the Lord looked upon, and her love made the offering sweet. So God will accept our gift, however small, if it is the best we have, and is offered from love to Him.--RH, Dec. 9, 1890.{DG 50.1}
quote:
The child Jesus did not receive instruction in the synagogue schools. His mother was His first human teacher. From her lips and from the scrolls of the prophets, He learned of heavenly things. The very words which He Himself had spoken to Moses for Israel He was now taught at His mother's knee. As He advanced from childhood to youth, He did not seek the schools of the rabbis. He needed not the education to be obtained from such sources; for God was His instructor.--DA 70 (1898).{DG 50.4}
Mary was entrusted with Christ, and was His first teacher. Christ was the helpless babe growing and learning, being the Exemplar from the beginning of His humanity always showing His humility.
quote:
If the youth rightly appreciate this important matter of character building, they will see the necessity of doing their work so that it will stand the test of investigation before God. The humblest and weakest, by persevering effort in resisting temptation and seeking wisdom from above, may reach heights that now seem impossible. These attainments cannot come without a determined purpose to be faithful in the fulfillment of little duties. It requires constant watchfulness that crooked traits shall not be left to strengthen. The young may have moral power, for Jesus came into the world that He might be our example and give to all youth and those of every age divine help. {CG 167.3}
Christ learned of His connection of the Heavenly Father through His human parents. But by the age of 12 Christ was ready for the personal connection between Son and Father.
Remember Christ was our Exemplar in all areas of life, from infant to man. We are to learn to follow this example.
Your Sister in Christ Jesus
Cheri Fritz
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/15/05 06:14 PM
Cheri, nice quotes. Thank you. Mary sure had an awesome responsibility.
Will, yes, it is good to know all promises are possible, in Christ. But, of course, we would also have to define an unknown defective trait of character.
Daryl, we are born odedient to the controlling influence of Satan, the slaves of sin, self and Satan. We begin sinning automatically, from the moment of consciousness. Jesus, on the other hand, was born obedient to the controlling influence of the Holy Spirit. He resisted the sinful clamorings of His fallen nature, from the moment of consciousness.
Jesus was born perfect, that is, He did not start sinning from the moment of consciousness. And He never disconnected from the Holy Spirit, He never stopped partakng of the divine nature, thus He never committed a known sin. He began perfect and He became perfect, that is, He grew in grace, and in knowledge, as He matured from childhood to manhood.
Born again believers begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. And it is their privilege to live without disconnecting from the Holy Spirit, to always partake of the divine nature, and to never commit another known sin. That is what is available to them.
Posted By: Will
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/15/05 06:23 PM
Mike,
I am not pursuing this discussion any more.. The neurosis involved in attempting to define something that is not known is short of ridiculous. Let me know what your "unknown defective character trait" is.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/16/05 06:43 PM
One way of looking at it, in the context of born again believers, is to define an "unknown defective trait of character" as non-existent. That is, in the case of born again believers there is no such thing as an unknown defective trait of character. By the time they are born again there are no unrevealed, unknown, unconfessed defects of character.
The reason this makes sense is the fact the Holy Spirit reveals all of their defective traits of character BEFORE they experience the miracle of rebirth. Of course, even worldly people are aware of their character defects, but during the process of conversion, before the moment they are born again, the Holy Spirit reveals their defects of character in light of the Cross.
It is this experience, seeing their defective traits of character in light of the Cross, in light of the death of Jesus, is what enables them to confess each sinful trait as the Holy Spirit reveals them, which He does one at a time, no faster than they can bear it, until the old man is dead and buried. Rebirth happens the moment their old man is dead, the moment their last defect has been revealed and confessed.
Another important consideration at this point is to define the difference between a defective trait of "character" and sins of ignorance. Born again believers have crucified their defective traits of character, but they may still have sins of ignorance. So, what is a sin of ignorance? and how does it differ from defective traits of character? What is character?
And, of course, they still possess sinful flesh nature, which torments them day and night with unholy thoughts and feelings, which must be resisted as a temptation, by staying connected to Jesus, by continually partaking of the divine nature. They must not confuse these familiar temptations with their former defective traits of character. The pull of sin they feel constantly is not the result of unknown or unconquered traits of character, but rather it originates with their fallen nature. This distinction is significant.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/17/05 02:54 AM
quote:
One way of looking at it, in the context of born again believers, is to define an "unknown defective trait of character" as non-existent. That is, in the case of born again believers there is no such thing as an unknown defective trait of character. By the time they are born again there are no unrevealed, unknown, unconfessed defects of character.
This clearly isn't the case. Martin Luther, for example, did not keep the Sabbath. Being a Sabbath-breaker was for him an "unknown defective trait of character" unless you have an odd definition for one of these words.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/17/05 06:01 PM
quote:
Another important consideration at this point is to define the difference between a defective trait of "character" and sins of ignorance. Born again believers have crucified their defective traits of character, but they may still have sins of ignorance. So, what is a sin of ignorance? and how does it differ from defective traits of character? What is character?
Tom, I agree with you. Martin Luther was born again and yet there were several areas of his life not in harmony with the truth. The sabbath, however, was a sin of ignorance, in his case. It wasn't a defective trait of character. What is the difference?
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/18/05 07:13 AM
You said there's no such thing as an unknown defect of character. When I presented you with an example of such, you said that since it was unknown, then it couldn't be a defect of character. Well if you're going to respond like that, why use the word "unknown" in the first place?
Just say there's no such thing as a defect of character and leave it at that, if that's what you think.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/19/05 07:03 AM
Because breaking the sabbath unwittingly isn't a defective trait of character. In order to develop a sinful trait of character it is necessary to repeatedly do something you know is wrong, you must violate your convictions and conscience. That's why it's impossible for a born again believer to possess an unknown defective trait of character.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/19/05 07:34 AM
Why use the word "unknown"? It seems to me you are using a tautological definition of your phrase, so that your assertion says nothing.
That is, you say something which you do unknowingly is not a defect of character, since it's unknown. So it's not only impossible for a Christian to have an unknown defect of character, it's impossible for a non-Christian, or a Martian, or anyone or anything else, to have an unknown defect of character, because such a thing is equivalent to a square circle.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/19/05 02:47 AM
Mike
Are you aware of all your sins and shortcommings?
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/19/05 05:25 AM
Tom, my point precisely. The difference before and after rebirth is that born again believers have been shown their defects in light of the cross.
Thomas, since you have specified "sins and shortcomings" I can honestly answer, Yes and No. Yes, the Holy Spirit has revealed to me my shortcomings, and by the grace of God I have victory (i.e., when I'm connected to Jesus). No, I cannot say for certain that God has revealed all my sins of ignorance.
Again, a sin of ignorance is not a defective trait of character. What is the difference?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/20/05 07:23 AM
Hi! Though I’m a rare contributor here I often follow through my husband. I felt I just had to say something here. We are saved by faith not by character. It is faith at the beginning, faith all the way through and faith which is the cord that grows larger and carries us over the chasm to the promised land. Faith focuses on the Lord not on ourselves. Faith knows that we can do nothing of ourselves. Faith is the walk of childlike trust that grows and learns. Faith is dynamic which means that in our walk with God we learn and grow and change (thank God) and it is as we maintain that humility and teachableness, the Lord counts us His children and guides and disciplines us. In the walk by faith there is joy and peace and victory. Faith is the victory!
Deborah Boskovic
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/19/05 09:11 PM
Deborah, thank you for sharing. And, I think I speak for everyone here when I say, Amen! We are saved based on faith in the shed blood of Jesus. Saving faith is like a tree planted by the rivers of water, bearing the fruit of the Spirit, unto the honor and glory of God.
But, would you agree there is a kind of "faith" that does not result in salvation? that does not yield the peaceable fruits of godliness? If so, then how might we identify it and avoid it? How can we tell if our faith is the genuine article? What is character? and what part does it play in judgment?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/19/05 11:29 PM
Yes, there is a belief which is not unto salvation, but it is not faith, it is belief. People often use the words interchangeably but they are very different. We can believe many ‘things’ or ‘truths’ about God and we may call that “faith”, including a belief in the shed blood of Jesus. Others may look at us and think we are “good Christians” but in our inmost heart we know if we walk by faith or belief. True faith is a relationship in which we have been saved from the power of sin and know it. We have been made a child of God and know it. We have God as our Father, Jesus as our indwelling helper and know it.
Character is only significant as it is revealed in this walk of faith. Only you and God and the people who live with you will know the victories you gain by faith. They cannot be hidden under a bushel. You and they will know whether you are humble and growing. Character is revealed through faith. We will only be judged by our lack of faith not by the degree of fruit. Remember the parable of the talents; whether we have 1 or 5 or 10 it is faithfulness that the Lord seeks.
Deborah Boskovic
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/20/05 12:24 AM
Again, amen! Does genuine faith enable us to live without committing known sins? If so, how does it work? If not, why not? Will an unconquered, uncrucified defective trait of character keep us out of heaven?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/20/05 02:16 PM
And suddenly this isnt about us anymore but the focal point has moved where it should have been all the time, on God and all He has done for our salvation.
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/21/05 07:44 AM
It's nice to think that God is the focus, but in reality, mankind has been the focus from the beginning. Jesus is the means of our salvation, but our salvation is the means to an end - that is, the end of the great controversy. We cannot ignore ourselves and focus only on God. We must work out our own "salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12. Of course, the only way we can do this is by staying connected to Jesus. But we cannot overlook our works and behaviour. Getting it right is everything.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/20/05 09:08 PM
quote:
It's nice to think that God is the focus, but in reality, mankind has been the focus from the beginning.
Isn't the Great Controversy about God?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/20/05 10:53 PM
"For God so loved the world ..." John 3:16.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/21/05 01:07 AM
Isn't the Great Controversy about God?
Yes, the great controversy is about God, because of what sin did and does to our hearts and minds, regarding our view of God. It is this deception of sin which holds man in bondage to sin. Thus to break this stronghold of sin; faith is the victory that overcomes the world. Genuine faith looks at God in the face of Christ. For God so loved the world that he gave us his son that we might see him as he is.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/21/05 01:15 AM
quote:
Does genuine faith enable us to live without committing known sins? If so, how does it work? If not, why not? Will an unconquered, uncrucified defective trait of character keep us out of heaven?
The above questions are contradictory to genuine faith's perspective.
Genuine faith does not think in terms of ‘not committing known sins’. In genuine faith, one has ceased “trying to overcome”; ceased “trying to improve one self”. Genuine faith does not think in terms of sins and defects. Genuine faith lays all of that down at the feet of the Saviour, and says not my will but thine.
Genuine faith does not keep a vigil on the sinful tree for unwanted fruit, and try to keep it plucked free of the fruit of sin. Genuine faith accepts the axe at the root of the tree.
It is a new tree which bears fruit of righteousness. It is a tree of not I but Christ. And if it is “not I” then we cannot look at "I" but we must look at "him" who is the author and finisher of our faith.
Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. So therefore where there is genuine faith there is no sin. Genuine faith is wholly taken up with him who is its object.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/21/05 01:47 AM
quote:
It's nice to think that God is the focus, but in reality, mankind has been the focus from the beginning. Jesus is the means of our salvation, but our salvation is the means to an end - that is, the end of the great controversy. We cannot ignore ourselves and focus only on God. We must work out our own "salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12. Of course, the only way we can do this is by staying connected to Jesus. But we cannot overlook our works and behaviour. Getting it right is everything.
Mike: Jesus is the means of our salvation, but our salvation is the means to an end - that is, the end of the great controversy.
John: Our salvation brings to an end the controversy of sin’s deception in our hearts and minds, regarding God and righteousness. So that God may dwell in us by his spirit.
Mike: We cannot ignore ourselves and focus only on God.
John: We must take our eyes off of ourselves and focus only on God.
Mike: We must work out our own "salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12.
John: Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. God works in us (gives us) the life, we live it. We do not make the life. Faith is dynamic and living.
Mike: Of course, the only way we can do this is by staying connected to Jesus.
John: How can you keep your eyes on him, if you cannot ignore yourself?
Mike: But we cannot overlook our works and behaviour.
John: How long do you have to look at that which is dead, your corpse?
Mike: Getting it right is everything.
John: So true!
Psa 121:3 He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber.
Psa 121:4 Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.
Psa 121:5 The LORD is thy keeper: the LORD is thy shade upon thy right hand.
Psa 121:6 The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night.
Psa 121:7 The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.
Psa 121:8 The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/21/05 03:08 AM
Amen! It is possible to reflect the glory of God in our lives. "Thou shalt not ..." becomes "Not I but Christ."
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/21/05 05:02 AM
quote:
Yes, the great controversy is about God, because of what sin did and does to our hearts and minds, regarding our view of God. It is this deception of sin which holds man in bondage to sin. Thus to break this stronghold of sin; faith is the victory that overcomes the world. Genuine faith looks at God in the face of Christ. For God so loved the world that he gave us his son that we might see him as he is.
I found this to be moving, John, especially the marked sentence. It reminded me of this verse (which may be where you got the idea from):
quote:
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Cor. 4:6)
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/21/05 05:23 PM
Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Romans 4
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about–but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
The bible agrees, nothing we do will earn us a doorpass to the heavenly Jerusalem. Jesus has done it all and He gives us all that we need when we seek/ask Him.
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/22/05 07:17 AM
Everyone seems to agree we cannot work our way into heaven, but do you also agree we can work our way out? That is, do bad works keep us out? Lucifer's rebellion got him booted out, and Adam's sin got him kicked out. So, how is it that works have nothing to do with whether or not we go to heaven?
I believe it is clear we can sin our way out of heaven, which means we must cease sinning in order to get in. If, by the grace of God, we crucify all of our defective traits of character, save one, if we REFUSE to crucify even one pet, darling sin, it is enough to keep us out of heaven.
If we deliberately REFUSE to crucify our favorite sin it is evidence that whatever defects we think we have crucified really aren't dead and buried. We cannot selfishly hold on to a cherished sin AND expect God to empower us to overcome the others. Whatever victories we experience, if we have cherished sins, are self generated, not God empowered. As such, we are unfit for heaven.
Which begs the question - Are goods works required in order to survive judgment? in order to enter heaven?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/21/05 08:50 PM
Could Lucifers sin have been a thought of "i can do this better than God"? Was Adams sin failiure to trust God? Was his thought "there is more to life than what God has thaught us"? If so, wouldnt these thouhts be the sins and the following actions responces to these? Faith in God leads to a responce of accepting and doing His will. Distrust in God leads to everything else we can see thats not of God.
/Thomas
Posted By: Will
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/21/05 09:24 PM
Hi Thomas,
I believe their is a miscommunication between you and Mike. You are both saying the same thing. You see it Jesus told the woman to 'sin no more' He meant that, and I believe that when Jesus speaks things happen, so it wasn't the womans strength, but His will.
Thats how the Bible tells us that we can oversome. He will save us to the uttermost, make us more than conquerors, and it is in Christ that we can do all things because He strengthens us.
My 2¢
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/21/05 09:37 PM
Is Will rigth in what he says Mike?
/Thomas
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/22/05 06:27 AM
If salvation is by faith, then, of course, condemnation is by unbelief. And that's exactly what Scripture teaches:
quote:
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)
How could it be otherwise?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/22/05 07:25 AM
Yes, I agree with Will's assessment.
quote:
Which begs the question - Are goods works required in order to survive judgment? in order to enter heaven?
Do we have to obey the law of God to get in heaven? Or, does our obedience have anything to do with it?
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/22/05 07:46 AM
Mike (penultimate post): Everyone seems to agree we cannot work our way into heaven.
Mike (next post): Do we have to obey the law of God to get in heaven?
These two ideas seem to me to be contradictory. If we agree we cannot work our way into heaven, then how could it be said we must obey the law of God to get in heaven? Wouldn't that be working our way in?
quote:
There is not a point that needs to be dwelt upon more earnestly, repeated more frequently, or established more firmly in the minds of all than the impossibility of fallen man meriting anything by his own best good works. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone. (FW 18)
Actually your question is sort of like this one: Did you recently stop beating your wife? No good answer.
If stated as you did, the answer has to be "no" because "to get into" implies merit. However if you asked, "Will all those who are in heaven be obedient to the law?" or "Will all those in heaven have characters in harmony with the law?" then the answer is "yes."
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/22/05 05:58 PM
Mike
You say that you agree with what Will wrote, yet I cannot help sencing some heistation, a "but" or an "if"..
Can you both keep your cake and eat it? Are we unable to merit anything for our salvation or are we judged on what we have done? Can we have it both ways?
What we do with the resources we get from the storehouses of Heaven isnt unimportant but here we are still talking about how to get into the city in the first place. Would I be wrong if I pointed out that all the "management parables" and teachings where directed towards those who where allready chosen and who had accpeted Jesus by faith. The people Paul, John and Peter wrote to encouraging to be perfect as the Father is perfect they in the next breath called saints or beloved. Surely they would not call people whos names they didnt think where written in the book of life "saints"?
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/23/05 07:21 AM
Tom, another way of wording the question is, Can we refuse to obey the law of God and make it into heaven? I suspect most of us here would answer, No. Which begs the question, Is obedience necessary to survive judgment, to get into heaven? The most obvious answer is, Yes.
Since God requires obedience, it is wrong to assume it has anything to do with working our way to heaven. It is because God requires obedience that Jesus gave His life on the cross. He lived and died to earn the right to pardon past sins confessed and forsaken, and to empower us to obey the law, to live in harmony with the will of God.
If we refuse to cooperate with the plan of salvation, and do our part to obey the law, then most assuredly we will be lost.
FW 95, 96
While we are to be in harmony with God's law, we are not saved by the works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience. The law is the standard by which character is measured. But we cannot possibly keep the commandments of God without the regenerating grace of Christ. Jesus alone can cleanse us from all sin. He does not save us by law, neither will He save us in disobedience to law. {FW 95.3}
PP 279
By obedience the people were to give evidence of their faith. So all who hope to be saved by the merits of the blood of Christ should realize that they themselves have something to do in securing their salvation. While it is Christ only that can redeem us from the penalty of transgression, we are to turn from sin to obedience. Man is to be saved by faith, not by works; yet his faith must be shown by his works. God has given His Son to die as a propitiation for sin, He has manifested the light of truth, the way of life, He has given facilities, ordinances, and privileges; and now man must co-operate with these saving agencies; he must appreciate and use the helps that God has provided--believe and obey all the divine requirements. {PP 279.1}
FW 94
He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. Man cannot be saved without obedience, but his works should not be of himself; Christ should work in him to will and to do of His good pleasure. If a man could save himself by his own works, he might have something in himself in which to rejoice. The effort that man makes in his own strength to obtain salvation is represented by the offering of Cain. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin; but that which is wrought through faith is acceptable to God. When we seek to gain heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress. "Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith," we may go on from strength to strength, from victory to victory; for through Christ the grace of God has worked out our complete salvation. {FW 94.1}
FW 48
In one way we are thrown upon our own energies; we are to strive earnestly to be zealous and to repent, to cleanse our hands and purify our hearts from every defilement; we are to reach the highest standard, believing that God will help us in our efforts. We must seek if we would find, and seek in faith; we must knock, that the door may be opened unto us. The Bible teaches that everything regarding our salvation depends upon our own course of action. If we perish, the responsibility will rest wholly upon ourselves. If provision has been made, and if we accept God's terms, we may lay hold on eternal life. We must come to Christ in faith, we must be diligent to make our calling and election sure. {FW 48.2}
TM 240
The Lord does not propose to perform for us either the willing or the doing. This is our proper work. As soon as we earnestly enter upon the work, God's grace is given to work in us to will and to do, but never as a substitute for our effort. Our souls are to be aroused to cooperate. The Holy Spirit works the human agent, to work out our own salvation. This is the practical lesson the Holy Spirit is striving to teach us. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." {TM 240.2}
Posted By: Will
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/23/05 07:37 AM
Aren't the wicked the ones who are judged?
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/22/05 09:56 PM
Yes, but the righteous are judged before the close of probation. It's called the investigative judgment, and it's been going on, for the dead, since 1844. It will progress to include the living during the MOB crisis.
Posted By: Will
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/22/05 10:04 PM
I do realize that an Investigative Judgment is occurring in heaven, and that based on that the righteous will be rewarded according to what they have done. I was trying to figure out if the judgment of the wicked cause they have already been deemed wicked was any different to that of the righteous.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/22/05 10:45 PM
The whole purpose of the Plan of Salvation is to restore us to harmony with God (which of course restores us to harmony with His law, being a transcript of His character). The only way possible for us to be restored is to behold the revelation of God in His Son Jesus Christ.
quote:
[M]an was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 762)
All that can or needs to be known about God is revealed in Christ. To know God is eternal life.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/23/05 03:26 AM
How soon are we turned out of the way!
Mike, That type of view of the investigative judgment will not get anyone into heaven but will keep everyone out of it. It should be noted that in the type of it on earth, there is not once recorded that anyone was ever condemned; and most of these were not even of faith, but stiff-necked and hard hearted.
The true understanding of the investigative judgment is expressed in:
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
The true investigative judgment that we need to know all about, has to do with us receiving God’s judgment over ours in genuine faith today. It is only for the living. It is happening right now; and if you are not participating you have no salvation. It is us, in genuine faith, letting God search our hearts and minds, allowing him to teach us in his way. A faith which believes in salvation without the exchange of my righteousness for his, does not save. We can only exchange our righteousness for his by receiving his judgment. Genuine faith surrenders our view of thing so that it can view all things through his eyes and spirit.
So the investigative judgment is nothing less than us receiving the mind of Christ in every word thought and action. It is also nothing more than that. Investigative judgment means nothing less and nothing more than “Not I but Christ” which is genuine faith. It is not God’s magnifier over our conduct. It is God’s salvation of our hearts and minds which bears the peaceable fruit of righteousness. It is a wonderful growing experience of genuine faith. Those who receive it in this way shall never fear any judgment. They have his mind.
Psa 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
Psa 32:9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
I invite all to have a blessed judgment experience with our heavenly Father.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/23/05 08:57 AM
Will, that's a good question. What do you think?
Tom, amen! I also like what the rest of the Bible teaches us about our heavenly Father.
John B., I prefer the explanation of the IJ that Sister White gives in the GC.
Did anybody happen to notice the EGW quotes, posted above, on the relationship between obedience and salvation? What do you think?
Posted By: Will
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/23/05 06:26 PM
Hi Mike,
Well I know that in Daniel when the Kingdom is given to Jesus and He approaches the Ancient of Days that the books were opened. I understand these books to include everyone since sin entered the world up to the close of probation.
However I am understanding that the difference between already judged and an investigative judgment to have different meanings.
an investigation is looking at evidence, records, and things like that which will assist in making a final judgment. Perhaps this is what is meant or referred to the judgment of the righteous and the wicked, that it is no longre an investigation, but a sentence has been pronounced, and the decision is final.
We who are alive can by the grace of God turn from our sins and be reconciled to Him in Jesus Christ, and that judgment is not final until the person either dies or Jesus comes.
So I do believe that being saved is a matter of Faith that God did send His Son to redeem us by His blood (we have been bought and paid for), and by being in Christ meaning abiding in His love, keeping your eyes on Him, that it will result in us doing what Jesus did, and being ambassadors for Christ which in a nutshell is good works, so the 2 are combined together.
I do believe that certain situations are unique for everyone such as the thief on the cross.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/23/05 08:05 PM
That makes sense. Before 1844 no one was investigated or judged. How does this apply to the investigative judgment of the living? When does God begin to investigate and judge the living? And, how does this relate to the topic of this thread?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/24/05 12:52 AM
quote:
Mike: I prefer the explanation of the IJ that Sister White gives in the GC.
I am not sure what you understand by that, but from what you said here, correct me if I am wrong, it appears that you mean that you prefer a court-case over grace.
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/24/05 03:01 AM
well the original question here was "It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns".
The way I view that is that it has mostly to do with our intent and with our trying our best to find out the truth and then follow it.
Also I think it has to do with learning the most important lesson and also the most difficult thing for a human being to do, which is to love those who dont love us back. Its easy to love those who love us or who we view as a benefit to us, and so on. But real Christian love has to do with loving because it is right. Not because we will get something out of it.
Matthew 5:
43: Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46: For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47: And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
We arent going to be perfectly perfectly perfect, because only Jesus is that.
Testimonies for the Church Volume Two, page 549,
He (Jesus) is our pattern. Have you, Brother A, imitated the Pattern? I answer: No. He is a perfect and holy example, given for us to imitate. We cannot equal the pattern; but we shall not be approved of God if we do not copy it and, according to the ability which God has given, resemble it. Love for souls for whom Christ died will lead to a denial of self and a willingness to make any sacrifice in order to be co-workers with Christ in the salvation of souls.
I think that God is looking more at what is in the heart.
Faith and Works, page 50, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Faith and Works
When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion.
There is also a passage in the Spirit of Prophecy that says something like this: "When it is in the heart to be a blessing to all those around us then we will have reached perfection". But I cant find the quote right now. Im pretty sure I saw it in Welfare Ministry or Testimony Treasures.
It also says in the Spirit of Prophecy that we cannot be justified if we are doing any known sin.
Jms:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Also, A.T. Jones said that Jesus is going to bring to our awareness sin after sin and each time we ought to decide "I would rather have Jesus than that" and then when He brings up the last sin and we decide to have Jesus rather than the sin, then we will be sealed. There's also an entire chapter on the sealing of God's people, maybe in Testimonies volume 5, that says basically the same thing.
I think sometimes that a lot of Seventh Day Adventists get too caught up in the technicalities of "perfection". Like, how perfect is perfectly perfect perfection?
Its like when Jesus was going through the field with His disciples and ate the grain... and the Pharisees got up set about that and accused him of breaking the Sabbath. Jesus told them havent they read how David when he was hungry broke the "law" ... He declared that in their blindness they had mistaken the object of the Sabbath. He said, "If ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless." Matt. 12:7.
Then there are those who seem not to even care about perfection or who think it is necessary. I think they got that idea because they view God in the old testament as "the harsh, heartless legalistic one" and they see Jesus as the "nice forgiving" one. For that reason they shun the idea of perfection because they see God as standing over them with a hammer just waiting for them to mess up. They forget that Jesus said "when you see Me you have seen the Father".
I dont know, it just always seemed to me like people tend go to extremes one way or the other. and they forget God is looking to win the heart and mind.
Mk:12:33: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Claudia
Posted By: Charity
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/24/05 04:33 AM
Thanks Claudia!
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/24/05 01:28 PM
What I was trying to get at in my last message is that it has always seemed to me that lots of Seventh Day Adventists make perfection of character seem an impossibility and they focus on the technicalities until they can end up making people so discouraged that they give up on ever becoming perfect. But if you read some of the things Ellen White and even A.T. Jones say about this subject you will see that it is something we CAN do, and its a matter of deciding we'd rather have Jesus than sin, and that we want to please God in all we do.
"But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected.
Let no one say, I cannot remedy my defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome. The real difficulty arises from the corruption of an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God.
Many whom God has qualified to do excellent work accomplish very little, because they attempt little. Thousands pass through life as if they had no definite object for which to live, no standard to reach. Such will obtain a reward proportionate to their works.
Remember that you will never reach a higher standard than you yourself set. Then set your mark high, and step by step, even though it be by painful effort, by self-denial and sacrifice, ascend the whole length of the ladder of progress. Let nothing hinder you. Fate has not woven its meshes about any human being so firmly that he need remain helpless and in uncertainty. Opposing circumstances should create a firm determination to overcome them. The breaking down of one barrier will give greater ability and courage to go forward. Press with determination in the right direction, and circumstances will be your helpers, not your hindrances.
Be ambitious, for the Master's glory, to cultivate every grace of character. In every phase of your character building you are to please God. This you may do; for Enoch pleased Him though living in a degenerate age. And there are Enochs in this our day." Christ's Object Lessons,331,332
"The cleansing of the sanctuary involves a purging from sin. Sins will be brought up to the surface for the believers to realize, and then they must decide to give up that sin. This work is done by Jesus from the Most Holy Place, and we are to cooperate with Him in this work:
“He (Christ) gave Himself for our sins; but... He will not take our sins—although He bought them—without our permission. The choice is forever with me as to whether I would rather have my sins than to have Him, isn’t it? Then from this time henceforth can there be any hesitation about letting anything go that God shows us is sin? Will you let it go when it is pointed out? When sin is pointed out to you, say, ‘I would rather have Christ than that,’ and let it go. Just tell the Lord, ‘Lord, I make the choice now; I make the trade; I make thee my choice; it is gone, and I have something better.’... Where in the world is the opportunity for any of us to get discouraged over our sins?
“Now some of the brethren have done that very thing. They came here free; but the Spirit of God brought up something they never saw before; and then, instead of thanking the Lord that that was so, and letting the whole wicked business go, and thanking the Lord that they had ever so much of Him than they ever had before, they began to get discouraged. They said ‘Oh what am I going to do? My sins are so great.’...
“If the Lord has brought up sins to us that we never thought of before, that only shows that He is going down to the depths, and He will reach the bottom at last; and when He finds the last thing that is unclean or impure, and brings that up, and shows that to us, and we say, ‘I would rather have the Lord than that,’ then the work is complete, and the Seal of the living God can be fixed upon that character.” A.T Jones, 1893 General Conference Bulletin pages 404,405.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/25/05 07:24 AM
Thank you Claudia for your comments; to ensure true understanding of those comments, or rather, to prevent them from being misunderstood, we need to have it established in our minds and hearts that it is “not I but Christ”.
No amount of self-assessment, or goals, or ambitions, or effort will ever achieve God’s purpose for us or in us.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Salvation is genuine real life change of heart and mind in which we are as the willing apprentices with the master, while at the same time we are the project of his work.
In order for his work to be done in us, so that we may be his workmanship, we need to allow him into our hearts and minds by genuine faith. Therefore:
The true investigative judgment, that we need to know all about, has to do with us receiving God’s judgment over ours in genuine faith today. It is only for the living. It is happening right now; and if you are not participating you have no salvation. It is us, in genuine faith, letting God search our hearts and minds, allowing him to teach us in his way. A faith which believes in salvation without the exchange of my righteousness for his does not save. We can only exchange our righteousness for his by receiving his judgment. Genuine faith surrenders our view of things so that it can view all things through his eyes and spirit.
So the investigative judgment is nothing less than us receiving the mind of Christ in every word, thought, and action. It is also nothing more than that. Investigative judgment means nothing less and nothing more than “Not I but Christ” which is genuine faith. It is not God’s magnifier over our conduct. It is God’s salvation of our hearts and minds which bears the peaceable fruit of righteousness. It is a wonderful growing experience of genuine faith. Those who receive it in this way shall never fear any judgment. They have his mind.
Psa 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
Psa 32:9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
“This work is done by Jesus from the Most Holy Place, and we are to cooperate with Him in this work”
We are to be as those that can be instructed by him and learn from him, those that can view things through his eyes, and delight to do his will, and those that participate with God in his work.
We are not to be as those that have no understanding, who think that God has to tug at their flesh; change their feelings and emotions so that they will feel like doing what he says, while they continue to live by their flesh-carnal mind (feelings, emotions, desires, etc). These often think that they are hypocrites if they do not feel like doing what they ought. They have not learned what it means to live by the spirit and not by the carnal mind which is at enmity with God.
The pattern of feelings and desires that have been written and engraved by man’s hand in the carnal will change in time as we live by the spirit. But, whether there is time for them to change or not, is irrelevant (they will change at the resurrection), we are not judged by these or subject to these. Character does not consist of the harmony of the flesh with the spirit, but rather the staying power to do what you ought regardless of how you feel. So, as Paul says, we have no obligation to live by the flesh but by the spirit. Genuine faith does not listen to the flesh to obey it, but to the Lord.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
I invite all to have a blessed judgment experience with our heavenly Father.
Shalom
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/24/05 08:14 PM
quote:
We arent going to be perfectly perfectly perfect, because only Jesus is that.
How about just perfectly perfect?
Posted By: Charity
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/25/05 03:06 AM
And thank you John!! I was blessed by your comments. And I was happy to learn that our views on this important topic are so similar.
Posted By: Charity
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/25/05 03:08 AM
I received my copy of the Review today and there was an excellent article in it by Roland Hegstead on sanctification and the investigative judgement. He ends with a gripping, beautiful, true story of passion, love and court room drama.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/25/05 04:57 AM
I see the judgment as a fearful thing. The COI were not rejoicing while the high priest was officiating within the MHP. Yes, our salvation is assured in Jesus, but it doesn't totally do away with the fearfulness of judgment. If we do not crucify every sin we shall be cast out with weeping and gnashing of teeth. Overcoming sin is a life and death issue.
Leviticus
16:31 It [shall be] a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.
Matthew
25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
1T 242
Angels are watching the development of character and weighing moral worth. All our words and acts are passing in review before God. It is a fearful, solemn time. The hope of eternal life is not to be taken up upon slight grounds; it must be settled between God and your own soul. {1T 242.2}
GC 489
"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." Proverbs 28:13. If those who hide and excuse their faults could see how Satan exults over them, how he taunts Christ and holy angels with their course, they would make haste to confess their sins and to put them away. Through defects in the character, Satan works to gain control of the whole mind, and he knows that if these defects are cherished, he will succeed. Therefore he is constantly seeking to deceive the followers of Christ with his fatal sophistry that it is impossible for them to overcome. But Jesus pleads in their behalf His wounded hands, His bruised body; and He declares to all who would follow Him: "My grace is sufficient for thee." 2 Corinthians 12:9. "Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light." Matthew 11:29, 30. Let none, then, regard their defects as incurable. God will give faith and grace to overcome them. {GC 489.2}
GC 489, 490
We are now living in the great day of atonement. In the typical service, while the high priest was making the atonement for Israel, all were required to afflict their souls by repentance of sin and humiliation before the Lord, lest they be cut off from among the people. In like manner, all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. {GC 489.3}
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/25/05 05:09 AM
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. (1 John 4:18)
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/25/05 06:27 AM
Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Which of the two would you like?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/25/05 07:12 AM
quote:
I see the judgment as a fearful thing. The COI were not rejoicing while the high priest was officiating within the MHP. Yes, our salvation is assured in Jesus, but it doesn't totally do away with the fearfulness of judgment. If we do not crucify every sin we shall be cast out with weeping and gnashing of teeth. Overcoming sin is a life and death issue.
Mike: I see the judgment as a fearful thing.
John: When I first turned to seek the Lord I was afraid; afraid of what he might do to me or ask of me. Sinful nature is sinfully afraid of God. This is how Satan keeps us away from God; through fear of death. But, there was something that said: if he died for me, why would he want to harm me? I “risked” against my fear, and discovered a wonderful Savior. I rejoice daily in his judgments – they are life everlasting.
Mike: The COI were not rejoicing while the high priest was officiating within the MHP.
John: They had no faith.
Mike: Yes, our salvation is assured in Jesus,
John: That sounds abstract and theoretical.
Mike: but it doesn't totally do away with the fearfulness of judgment.
John: The fearfulness cannot be done away with, until you receive the judgment. The fearfulness increases the longer you delay. It is your privilege and salvation to receive it now. He is calling you now. Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mike: If we do not crucify every sin we shall be cast out with weeping and gnashing of teeth.
John: How will you do it? It is his judgment that does it. That is how sin is crucified and overcome. Sin knows it and that is why it is afraid of the judgment. Take hold by faith of him that died for you. Let him judge you. Do not let him go till he bless you. Sin will be crucified and you will live.
Mike: Overcoming sin is a life and death issue.
John: Indeed it is. If you receive his judgment now, sin will be crucified and overthrown, and you will live in the joy of the Lord. If you do not receive his judgment, sin will continue to live and you shall remain in torment, fear, and death.
2Co 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2Co 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/25/05 07:23 AM
quote:
If you receive his judgment now, sin will be crucified and overthrown, and you will live in the joy of the Lord.
John, do you mean to say we are judged now? that we are sinless now? Are you referring to the IJ? or a different judgment? to actual sinlessness? or legal sinlessness?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/26/05 07:18 AM
Mike
Is God out to get you? Does He labour to find reason to destroy you? Who is the accuser of brethren? Who is your defendor? Who would rejoice in your death?
Eze 33 specifically verses 11 and 13
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/26/05 07:21 AM
quote:
GC 489, 490
We are now living in the great day of atonement. In the typical service, while the high priest was making the atonement for Israel, all were required to afflict their souls by repentance of sin and humiliation before the Lord, lest they be cut off from among the people. In like manner, all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. {GC 489.3}
Thomas, how do you define afflicting your soul? And, how does it relate to the topic of this thread? Is it possible to overcome every single defective trait of character? If so, when? quote:
GC 489
Through defects in the character, Satan works to gain control of the whole mind, and he knows that if these defects are cherished, he will succeed. Therefore he is constantly seeking to deceive the followers of Christ with his fatal sophistry that it is impossible for them to overcome.... Let none, then, regard their defects as incurable. God will give faith and grace to overcome them. {GC 489.2}
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/26/05 07:33 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Thomas, how do you define afflicting your soul? And, how does it relate to the topic of this thread? Is it possible to overcome every single defective trait of character? If so, when?
Consulting a dictionary I got this definition.
afflict; to distress grievously: to harass:
afflicted; harassed by disease of body or mind: suffering
afflicting; distressing
affliction; state or cause of grievous distress
afflictive; causing distress
grievous => grieve
grieve; to cause gref or pain of mind to: to make sorrowful
Is this what God wishes for us? If this is Gods plan for mankind, what does that do to the great controversy theme? What could the devil add to destroy Gods character than the claim that God wishes for his people to be harassed by grief?
/Thomas
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/25/05 08:17 PM
quote:
John, do you mean to say we are judged now? that we are sinless now? Are you referring to the IJ? or a different judgment? to actual sinlessness? or legal sinlessness?
Mike: do you mean to say we are judged now?
John: Yes, now. Now is the day of Salvation.
Mike: that we are sinless now?
John: Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. This is precisely the point. You cannot say that you have faith in God, or that you live by faith, if you cannot trust him enough to receive his thoughts and judgment of you today. Which aspect of your life do you not wish to lay at his feet in faith; that he may resolve it for you? Which aspect of your life do you wish to resolve before you let him give you his judgment of you? Which aspect of his thought and judgment do you not want to be yours now? 1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace.
Mike: Are you referring to the IJ?
John: I am referring to his ministry of the MHP.
Mike: or a different judgment?
John: It is likely quite different than what you may understand it to be.
Mike: to actual sinlessness? or legal sinlessness?
John: To complete reconciliation of your heart, mind and spirit with God; to a living genuine faith, rejoicing in the glory of the Father; to the indwelling of his spirit in you. No, no make-believe sinless ness.
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
How will he do this without us receiving his thoughts and judgment?
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/25/05 10:19 PM
quote:
Thomas, how do you define afflicting your soul? And, how does it relate to the topic of this thread? Is it possible to overcome every single defective trait of character? If so, when?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/25/05 10:29 PM
John, I appreciate the idea that we are truly sinless in Christ, both legally and really, now, today. But I suspect, like you, that we are using the word “judgment” in a very different ways. Before I say any more let me ask this question, Do you agree with the traditional SDA doctrine regarding the IJ? The way it’s described in the GC?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/25/05 11:16 PM
Mike: Do you agree with the traditional SDA doctrine regarding the IJ? The way it’s described in the GC?
John: The question is, do you understand it the way it is? Has the Great Controversy been settled in your heart?
Shalom
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/26/05 01:02 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
quote:
Thomas, how do you define afflicting your soul? And, how does it relate to the topic of this thread? Is it possible to overcome every single defective trait of character? If so, when?
Mike, I dont have any personal relationship with the word "afflict", therefor the dictionary version will have to do.
At first I thought maybe the text you quoted was out of context or alike, but reading the entire chapter it shows that the theme is indeed fear. Be very affraid of dying at the wrong time... Worry about not doing enough, or doing the wrong things. Whatever happened to the light yoke?
Hmm, you saw fit to edit that part out of the quote. Wonder why...
Afflict ones soul like the people mourned over sin under the atonement sermon in israel for this entire period. Would that mean that everyone who has lived between 1844 until now and to the day that Jesus returns again have been expected to "be haunted with the fear of sin" and "mourn" over it for all their days? 4-5 generations of constant mourning and anguish over sins commited?
Yet the chapter also contains:
The book of life contains the names of all who have ever entered the service of God. Jesus bade His disciples: "Rejoice,
481
because your names are written in heaven." Luke 10:20. Paul speaks of his faithful fellow workers, "whose names are in the book of life." Philippians 4:3. Daniel, looking down to "a time of trouble, such as never was," declares that God's people shall be delivered, "everyone that shall be found written in the book." And the revelator says that those only shall enter the city of God whose names "are written in the Lamb's book of life." Daniel 12:1; Revelation 21:27.
482
The law of God is the standard by which the characters and the lives of men will be tested in the judgment. Says the wise man: "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment." Ecclesiastes 12:13, 14. The apostle James admonishes his brethren: "So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:12
Jesus will appear as their advocate, to plead in their behalf before God. "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." "Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them." Hebrews 9:24; 7:25.
498 2 (complete)
"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." Proverbs 28:13. If those who hide and excuse their faults could see how Satan exults over them, how he taunts Christ and holy angels with their course, they would make haste to confess their sins and to put them away. Through defects in the character, Satan works to gain control of the whole mind, and he knows that if these defects are cherished, he will succeed. Therefore he is constantly seeking to deceive the followers of Christ with his fatal sophistry that it is impossible for them to overcome. But Jesus pleads in their behalf His wounded hands, His bruised body; and He declares to all who would follow Him: "My grace is sufficient for thee." 2 Corinthians 12:9. "Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light." Matthew 11:29, 30. Let none, then, regard their defects as incurable. God will give faith and grace to overcome them.
I think I see more now where you are coming from here, for if this chapter is what one bases ones belief upon only, then one would believe that God is only able to save a person who has first done everything in his power to #1 not sin #2 remember and ask for forgiveness if he would yet sin #3 not a single time fail in steps 1 and 2 for such a single time would mean everything would be in vain.
How this blends with this following quote
16“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”
I would like to know.
Now to your two last questions. If you set out on a mission to never ever sin again for as long as you live, though you would live an endless number of days you would not succeed in your task. And though you would live without sin from this day forward, this would bring you not one step closer to heavens gates for you could not in this way earn points to repay yesterdays debt.
If you instead set out on a mission to get as close to Jesus as possible, let Him carry your burden of sin, worry and pain trough prayer. Then is your goal not already achived for aslong as your mission would continue.
I would like to illustrate with a simple example. Try not to think about yellow elephants for the next 5 minutes. Did you succeed? If so, how?
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/26/05 01:31 AM
John, I'll take that answer as a Yes. According to the GC (the book by EGW) the investigative judgment doesn't start until after someone dies or, in the case of the 144,000, after the sunday laws are enforced and before probation closes.
How do you relate this information to the topic of this thread?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/26/05 01:44 AM
Thomas, I'm not sure I understand what it means to afflict my soul during the day of atonement, but I suspect it includes many things, one of them being fear. I truly believe if my case were to come before God, right now, for investigation I would pass with flying colors. Why? Jesus is my Advocate and Judge. And, because I am doing everything in my power to cooperate with the Holy Spirit to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. Think of how all the patriarchs and prophets shook with fear in the presence of God. It seems unavoidable.
Philippians
2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
Hebrews
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Revelation
14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Ecclesiastes
12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/26/05 02:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Think of how all the patriarchs and prophets shook with fear in the presence of God. It seems unavoidable.
Abraham argued over the the end of Sodom, Jacob demanded a blessing, Moses tried to excuse his way out of Gods plan the first time and later several times argued with God in such way that God changed his mind, Eliah complained over bad working conditions and meager results. All these examples in discussion with God in OT. There isnt any lack of examples from the NT either.
Philippians
2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
Cont: 14Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe 16as you hold out the word of life–in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing. 17But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.
Hebrews 10
19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another–and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
Hebrews
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Revelation
14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Continues after a jump:
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
Ecclesiastes
12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.
![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
verse 12 says: "Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body." which is true but a wholy different question.
/Thomas
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/26/05 04:25 AM
quote:
John, I'll take that answer as a Yes. According to the GC (the book by EGW) the investigative judgment doesn't start until after someone dies or, in the case of the 144,000, after the sunday laws are enforced and before probation closes.
How do you relate this information to the topic of this thread?
I believe I have well stated how Christ’s ministry of the MHP, and as related to the IJ, has to do with this thread.
As far as the above version of the IJ (judgment of the dead or the 144,000), I see no relevance to this thread for a number of reasons.
The dead cannot sin so they needn't overcome any, so likewise they need not worry about having any known defects. The corpses would have a hard time of afflicting their souls, and I do not see why they should unless you believe in purgatory. I also do not know what Christ would be ministering in the MHP about the dead, unless it was some masses or some such. I hope I am not sounding sacrilegious here. In terms of the 144,000, well, they are a special breed which most of us do not qualify since the Sunday laws are not in effect, and that means by the way that none of the living are being judged yet so what is the point of afflicting our souls since God is not paying any attention to us while he is so busy about the dead. And perhaps some will take that to mean that it is alright if they still have some sin; for the time for sinless ness has not arrived. (please do not implicate anything I have said here with EW)
I am sorry Mike; the ministry of Christ in the MHP is for the Living and is the work of Salvation. It is going on right now and it is for you and me. Afflicting your soul will not help very much at all, but receiving his judgment in faith will do wonders.
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him;
[ March 25, 2005, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/26/05 05:43 AM
quote:
I also do not know what Christ would be ministering in the MHP about the dead, unless it was some masses or some such… Afflicting your soul will not help very much at all, but receiving his judgment in faith will do wonders.
John, your views on the IJ do not agree with the SDA view.
GC 483
Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. {GC 483.1}
GC 485
The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated. {GC 485.2}
GC 486
Both the living and the dead are to be judged "out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." {GC 486.1}
GC 488
The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill. {GC 488.2}
GC 489, 490
In like manner, all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. {GC 489.3}
GC 490
Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. {GC 490.1}
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/26/05 07:11 AM
I commented on what Mike said,
quote:
According to the GC (the book by EGW) the investigative judgment doesn't start until after someone dies or, in the case of the 144,000, after the sunday laws are enforced and before probation closes. How do you relate this information to the topic of this thread?
You asked for the relevance of the points you brought out as the IJ, to “this topic of overcoming sin”.
My answer: I see no relevance of it to this topic. It can only relate to the living now because the dead know not anything and cannot overcome sin. And in relation to the dead overcoming sin, Christ cannot do anything about that either.
If you want to talk about judgment not relevant to this topic, then I would think that another thread would be in order.
So in reference to IJ relevant to this topic and Christ's ministry in the MHP my comments stand undaunted.
No amount of self-assessment, or goals, or ambitions, or effort will ever achieve God’s purpose for us or in us.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Salvation is genuine real life change of heart and mind in which we are as the willing apprentices with the master, while at the same time we are the project of his work.
In order for his work to be done in us, so that we may be his workmanship, we need to allow him into our hearts and minds by genuine faith. Therefore:
The true investigative judgment, that we need to know all about, has to do with us receiving God’s judgment over ours in genuine faith today. It is only for the living. It is happening right now; and if you are not participating you have no salvation. It is us, in genuine faith, letting God search our hearts and minds, allowing him to teach us in his way. A faith which believes in salvation without the exchange of my righteousness for his does not save. We can only exchange our righteousness for his by receiving his judgment. Genuine faith surrenders our view of things so that it can view all things through his eyes and spirit.
So the investigative judgment is nothing less than us receiving the mind of Christ in every word, thought, and action. It is also nothing more than that. Investigative judgment means nothing less and nothing more than “Not I but Christ” which is genuine faith. It is not God’s magnifier over our conduct. It is God’s salvation of our hearts and minds which bears the peaceable fruit of righteousness. It is a wonderful growing experience of genuine faith. Those who receive it in this way shall never fear any judgment. They have his mind.
Psa 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
Psa 32:9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
“This work is done by Jesus from the Most Holy Place, and we are to cooperate with Him in this work”
I invite all to have a blessed judgment experience with our heavenly Father.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/26/05 08:13 AM
John, what you say about the work of God in our lives now is good and true, but it isn't what the IJ is all about. The work you are referring to is not the annual day of atonement, not according to SDA theology. Jesus' work in the MHP involves blotting out the record and memory of sin, or blotting out names from the Book of Life. This began for the righteous dead in 1844, and will include the living when the sunday laws are enforced. It hasn't started for the living yet.
The way the IJ of the dead and the living relates to this thread is we must first overcome all of our defective traits of character, otherwise, our names, instead of our sins, will be blotted out of the Book of Life. Whether our case comes before God for review and investigation after we die or while we are still alive the same thing applies - our defective traits of character must be overcome. In this regard there is no difference between the dead and the living. The 144,000 are no more or no less victorious over their defective traits of character than anyone else who makes it to heaven.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/26/05 04:01 PM
Mike: The way the IJ of the dead and the living relates to this thread is we must first overcome all of our defective traits of character, otherwise, our names, instead of our sins, will be blotted out of the Book of Life.
John: How will you do it?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/26/05 04:22 PM
It seems to me that for the purpose of everyday life what John says is more urgent for us.
Isnt what John has written the method by which overcoming sin is achieved?
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/26/05 06:31 PM
John and Thomas, neither one of you two seem to be willing to confess publicly that John's view of the IJ contradicts SDA doctrine. Why is that? Please, do the honorable thing and admit it here and now. Thank you.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/26/05 06:51 PM
Mike, that is an imperical statement.
quote:
Mike: The way the IJ of the dead and the living relates to this thread is we must first overcome all of our defective traits of character, otherwise, our names, instead of our sins, will be blotted out of the Book of Life.
John: How will you do it?
You answer that question and we will see if it contradicts or not.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/27/05 07:09 AM
John, regarding your position concerning perfection, sinlessness and victory over our defective traits of character, please understand that I agree with you wholeheartedly. We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. We are born again morally perfect, that is, morally complete. We are not, however, born again morally mature. Like Jesus, who grew in grace morally and mentally as He matured from childhood to manhood, so too we must, and will, grow in grace and mature morally as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man.
How do we make the transition from sinful and morally imperfect to sinless and morally perfect? By cooperating with the Spirit of God during the process of conversion, by confessing, in light of the cross, our defective traits of character as the Holy Spirit reveals them to us. If we keep pace with God, as He shows us our sinfulness in light of the cross, if we confess each defective trait of character as they are revealed, if we do not cling to a cherished, pet, darling sin when it is exposed, if we confess the last character defect when it is revealed - then, and only then, can we experience the miracle of rebirth. Then, and only then, will God implant in us the sinless seed, or mind, of the new man.
It is the divine implantation of the sinless seed of the mind of the new man that makes it possible for born again believers to partake of the divine nature and to imitate the sinless example of Jesus in obeying the law of God. We are reborn without our former defective traits of character. They are crucified the moment we confess our last imperfection of character during the process of conversion. We are born again dead to sin and awake to righteousness. And, so long as we abide in Christ, so long as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, we do not and cannot commit a known sin.
We are born again, however, with our sinful nature in tact. Our sinful nature will continue to generate and communicate to our conscious minds unholy thoughts and feelings in the form of temptations. We must not confuse these tempting thoughts and feelings with our old man, our crucified traits of character. The origin of post-conversion sinful, tempting thoughts and feelings is our fallen flesh nature. Our sinful nature has, as it were, a mind and voice of its own, which we must learn to resist and reject as the voice of Satan. Jesus Himself was born with a sinful nature, which He successfully resisted from the cradle to the cross.
None of these things mean we are incapable of committing a known sin. It’s just that we will not and cannot commit a known while we are connected to Christ, while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Since it is impossible to commit a known sin while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we must, therefore, stop fellowshipping in Christ in order to commit a known sin. When we disconnect ourselves from Jesus, our only source of success and victory, we in essence resurrect our old man. Once back in the mind of our old man all we can do is sin. But, repentance restores the relationship our sin severed, and we resume walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. The old man is once again crucified and buried.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/26/05 09:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
John and Thomas, neither one of you two seem to be willing to confess publicly that John's view of the IJ contradicts SDA doctrine. Why is that? Please, do the honorable thing and admit it here and now. Thank you.
Mike,
I am unable to confess anythin about how Johns view agrees or disagrees with the IJ SDA doctrine. I can however confess that I do not know and understand the SDA IJ doctrine. If you or others teach it first, then I may say wether what John has said agrees with it or not.
However it seems to me that what John has said makes sence from what the bible says. And you dont seem to disagree with this, only with what to call it and where in the doctrinal three it is grafted in.
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/26/05 10:31 PM
Thomas, please do a word search on the EGW website on the "investigative judgment" and you will see quickly that John's view contradicts SDA doctrine. He says the investigative judgment of the living is an ongoing experience of victory over sin, and that it does not involve the dead in Christ whereas, Sister White wrote, "Both the living and the dead are to be judged 'out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works....' Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living." GC 486, 490.
http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/published-writings.html GC 483
As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. {GC 483.1}
It is not a trivial matter of who is right or wrong. Sister White clearly teaches that our salvation depends on getting it right. "The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill." GC 488.
2T 401, 402
The Lord is proving and testing His people. Angels of God are watching the development of character and weighing moral worth. Probation is almost ended, and you are unready. Oh, that the word of warning might burn into your souls! Get ready! get ready! Work while the day lasts, for the night cometh when no man can work. The mandate will go forth: He that is holy, let him be holy still; and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still. The destiny of all will be decided. A few, yes, only a few, of the vast number who people the earth will be saved unto life eternal, while the masses who have not perfected their souls in obeying the truth will be appointed to the second death. O Saviour, save the purchase of Thy blood! is the cry of my anguished heart. {2T 401.1}
Posted By: Charity
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/27/05 01:19 AM
For the record, I also believe that the IJ is now for those who understand the gospel and the great salvation from sin that God freely offers every son and daughter of Adam. We need to confess our sinfulness and our need of the remedy that God offers. I am close to John's view in that regard although we may not see some things eye to eye, and I'm glad he's brought this view forward.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/27/05 04:05 AM
Mark, at least you have gone on public record as disagreeing with the SDA view of the IJ. I would expect that from an official of MSDAOL. The idea that the IJ did not begin with the dead in 1844 is anti-Adventism. The idea that the IJ of the living has begun already is also a non-Adventist view. Such contradictions, if adopted by the SDA Church, would totally undermine Adventism.
Posted By: Tom
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/27/05 08:35 AM
It seems to me the investigative judgment, and all judgment, is primarily about God. It is His character that was called into question. The whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal the Father, and in so doing set and keep men right with God. This must fit into the question somehow, mustn't it?
The books of heaven represent the characters of those who are being judged. Angels have in interest in seeing who their future neighbors throughout eternity will be. They have an opportunity to see how sound God's judgment is by the way He judges the case of the dead and the living.
Given that the books in heaven simply reflect the reality of our characters here on earth, if we have faith in Christ then we will pass the judgment:
quote:
The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Rom. 3:26. (DA 762)
There should be something for everybody to like in this quote!
Posted By: Charity
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/27/05 02:42 PM
Regarding the IJ beginning in 1844 with the dead, that is sound, although we have more to learn about it IMO. Regarding the judgment of the living being a present reality, this is genuine Adventism. It's based on the prinicple that everyone is accountable for the light he has today. Those who are aware of the open door to the Most Holy Place are invited today to set their faith on Christ within the veil as their Advocate and judge. The world is not arrayed yet IMO because for the most part it has not been presented with the testing truths of the three angels' messages.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/27/05 04:13 PM
Mike
Are you saying that adventism stands and falls with Investigative Judgement?
/Thomas
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/27/05 04:45 PM
Mike: John, regarding your position concerning perfection, sinlessness and victory over our defective traits of character, please understand that I agree with you wholeheartedly.
John: It appears you agree with the end result.
Mike: How do we make the transition from sinful and morally imperfect to sinless and morally perfect? By cooperating with the Spirit of God during the process of conversion, by confessing, in light of the cross, our defective traits of character as the Holy Spirit reveals them to us. If we keep pace with God, as He shows us our sinfulness in light of the cross, if we confess each defective trait of character as they are revealed, if we do not cling to a cherished, pet, darling sin when it is exposed, if we confess the last character defect when it is revealed - then, and only then, can we experience the miracle of rebirth. Then, and only then, will God implant in us the sinless seed, or mind, of the new man
John: It appears you disagree with the way of getting there. Not that I have problems with what you said here, but taken in context of the fact that you have declared it to be contradictory to what I have stated, I must accept it to mean something else than what I have said. I have a difficult time figuring your statement here and the rest of your comments (without re-quoting) in such contradiction.
My observations as follows: You have not once used the words: faith, trust, judgment, believe. I do not know if that has any meaning, but if it does, I have grave concerns as to the meaning of your words: connected, imitate, conversion, co-operate, light of the cross, fellowship.
Please explain the contradiction between your way of victory over sin and what I have expressed.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/27/05 05:02 PM
Mike Said:
quote:
Mark, at least you have gone on public record as disagreeing with the SDA view of the IJ. I would expect that from an official of MSDAOL.
Mike, I do not think that you should regard yourself to be the defining authority on SDA doctrine. I have opened up another thread for the light of this matter to be established. You are welcome to pursue it there at the same time we would like to continue the thread here in context of victory over sin.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/28/05 07:34 AM
Tom, you're right, that is an awesome quote from DA - one of my favorite.
Thomas, yes, Adventism was built on the sanctuary message. It is the heart and soul of the final warning. "The hour of his judgment is come." Without it we are no different than any other protestant church. Here's what Sister White said about it:
1SM 209
We are God's commandment-keeping people. For the past fifty years every phase of heresy has been brought to bear upon us, to becloud our minds regarding the teaching of the Word--especially concerning the ministration of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, and the message of Heaven for these last days, as given by the angels of the fourteenth chapter of Revelation. Messages of every order and kind have been urged upon Seventh-day Adventists, to take the place of the truth which, point by point, has been sought out by prayerful study, and testified to by the miracle-working power of the Lord. But the waymarks which have made us what we are, are to be preserved, and they will be preserved, as God has signified through His Word and the testimony of His Spirit. He calls upon us to hold firmly, with the grip of faith, to the fundamental principles that are based upon unquestionable authority. {1SM 208.2}
LDE 45, 46
In a special sense Seventh-day Adventists have been set in the world as watchmen and light bearers. To them has been entrusted the last warning for a perishing world. On them is shining wonderful light from the Word of God. They have been given a work of the most solemn import--the proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages. There is no other work of so great importance. They are to allow nothing else to absorb their attention. {LDE 45.3}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/27/05 08:04 PM
quote:
My observations as follows: You have not once used the words: faith, trust, judgment, believe. I do not know if that has any meaning, but if it does, I have grave concerns as to the meaning of your words: connected, imitate, conversion, co-operate, light of the cross, fellowship. Please explain the contradiction between your way of victory over sin and what I have expressed.
Actually, it appears that we agree regarding the results of righteousness by faith. I believe we begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. The way of victory over sin begins the moment we respond to the wooing influence of the Holy Spirit to confess our sinful traits of character in light of the cross. “The exceeding sinfulness of sin can be estimated only in the light of the cross.” SC 31. During what Sister White calls the “process of conversion” (DA 172) we confess our sinfulness, in light of the cross.
Victory over sin, however, doesn’t begin for us until the moment we experience the miracle of rebirth. This happens when we confess, in light of the cross, the last defective trait of character revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. Our “old man”, which is the sum total of our character imperfections, is crucified and we are born again. We become “new creatures” in Christ. God implants within us the sinless seed of the mind of the new man. We are born again “dead to sin” and “awake to righteousness”.
Once we are born again we begin a life of victory over sin, that is, we start living without committing known sins. Which isn’t possible before we are born again. By faith we trust the promises of God, and it is so, we live without sinning. But more than this, we experience the fruits of the Spirit. Victory over sin includes imitating the sinless example of Jesus by obeying the law of God. This wonderful reality is made possible through the divine implantation of the sinless mind of the new man, which enables us to partake of the divine nature, which empowers us to imitate the sinless example of Jesus.
By the way, the reason I refer to the cross in the context of the process of conversion is because even unconverted worldlings are aware of their defects and imperfections. But seeing them in light of the cross is what makes the difference. It's the cross that motivates us to confess our sins, and to crave rebirth and freedom from sin.
I’m not sure how this view differs from the one you have embraced.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/27/05 08:31 PM
quote:
Mike: I’m not sure how this view differs from the one you have embraced.
Well Mike, if you are not sure what it is, that I am saying, and yet you seem to think it is so contradictory to your thoughts; it strikes me that your conclusions have not been reasoned.
Please revisit again my comments and tell me what it is that concerns you. If it is related to victory over sin place your comments here. If you think the concern is the IJ doctrine then place your comments in the thread on IJ I opened.
I am confident that once the matter is reviewed my comments will stand undaunted.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns! - 03/27/05 08:59 PM
John, yeah, my contention with you concerns your non-Adventist view of the IJ. I'll see you on the new thread you started to discuss it. So, what about our views regarding rebirth and victory over sin? I don't recall you explaining your view in much detail.