Behold the Lamb
What does it mean - Behold the Lamb!? The expression, Behold, is often used in the context of Jesus and our relationship to Him. What does it mean? What is the fruit of beholding Him?
John
1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
19:5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And [Pilate] saith unto them, Behold the man!
19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
2 Corinthians
3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.
5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)
1 John
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Revelation
3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Are you sure this is not just semantics and archaic words vs words used today? Doing a webbible search on "behold" reveals that the quotes you made are just a few examples and that far from all these examples deal with Jesus in the way your quotes does.
Matthew 7:4
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
/Thomas
Posted By: Will
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/13/05 03:46 AM
I'm confused by your statement Mike especially the part of how the word Behold is related to our relationship with Him? Could you explain.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/13/05 07:13 AM
Here's how Sister White explains it:
AG 96
"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (2 Cor. 3:18). Beholding Christ means studying His life as given in His Word. We are to dig for truth as for hidden treasure. We are to fix our eyes upon Christ. When we take Him as our personal Saviour, this gives us boldness to approach the throne of grace. By beholding we become changed, morally assimilated to the One who is perfect in character. By receiving His imputed righteousness, through the transforming power of the Holy Spirit, we become like Him. The image of Christ is cherished, and it captivates the whole being. {AG 96.4}
COL 355
Looking unto Jesus we obtain brighter and more distinct views of God, and by beholding we become changed. Goodness, love for our fellow men, becomes our natural instinct. We develop a character which is the counterpart of the divine character. Growing into His likeness, we enlarge our capacity for knowing God. More and more we enter into fellowship with the heavenly world, and we have continually increasing power to receive the riches of the knowledge and wisdom of eternity. {COL 355.1}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/13/05 08:09 AM
quote:
The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes....
Those who would behold this glory would be drawn to love Jesus and to love the Father whom he represented. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (RH 1/20/90)
To behold the Lamb is to perceive the character of the Father in Christ. From Christ we learn that God is not cruel, arbitrary or harsh; He is good, kind, gracious, and a supreme regarder of freedom.
By beholding Christ we may perceive the character of God, and be set right with Him. To reveal God's character was the whole purpose of Christ's mission.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/13/05 07:37 PM
I didn't find your quote in RH, but I did find it in ST Jan 20, 1890. I read the entire article, and what a powerful piece of light and truth. Thanx for sharing it. However, I didn't get the same conclusion from it that you did. Yes, Jesus refuted Satan's accusations about the Father, by living and dying the perfect life and death, but she also wrote those who are renewed in righteousness and true holiness are the evidence that vindicates the kingdom and character of God.
The life and death of Jesus, alone, is not enough to cause every knee to bow, and every tongue to confess, that Jesus is right and Satan is wrong. Jesus' sacrifice, if it fails to yield the fruit of faithful souls, will fail to settle the great controversy to the honor and glory of God. The evidence that Jesus' sacrifice is worthy and efficacious is souls saved from sin, souls set free, souls who imitate the sinless example of Jesus. Without these trophies of triumph it's just Jesus' word against Satan's word.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/13/05 10:29 PM
quote:
The life and death of Jesus, alone, is not enough to cause every knee to bow, and every tongue to confess, that Jesus is right and Satan is wrong. Jesus' sacrifice, if it fails to yield the fruit of faithful souls, will fail to settle the great controversy to the honor and glory of God. The evidence that Jesus' sacrifice is worthy and efficacious is souls saved from sin, souls set free, souls who imitate the sinless example of Jesus. Without these trophies of triumph it's just Jesus' word against Satan's word.
Thank you for pointing out my error in the citation of the argument. I've been quoting it wrong. It is a wonderful argument.
I did not come to the same conclusion you did. Please quote the relevant section of the article you had in mind. To me the whole article seemed to be talking about Christ, and indeed the title of the article "God Manifested in Christ" I think it was, bears out the theme of the article.
The chapter "It Is Finished" in "The Desire of Ages" makes very clear that the unfallen worlds have made up their minds, and as far as they are concerned, the Great Controversy has been decided. Do you disagree with this? Here's a quote from that chapter:
quote:
Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken...Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion.
This points out that the death of Christ clarified the issues for the unfallen worlds. The only ones still in the dark are humans, so it would seem to me that this is primarily to whom the work of the 144,000 would be directed, since all others have already made up their mind.
If you have some SOP quotes in mind which address this issue, please share them. I'm particularly interested in how and to whom (i.e. for whose benefit) the 144,000 vindicate God's character.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/14/05 04:47 AM
The following was omitted in the ellipsis you quoted above:
DA 761
Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/14/05 07:20 AM
What you quoted brings out two points:
1) Not all questions were answered for the angels.
2) For man's sake, Satan's existence was continued.
2) would agree with what I was suggesting was the reason for the 144,000, which is that there the vindication of God's character was necessary for man, because man is not aware of this reality. Angels, however, are aware, and are convinced that God is right. Satan completely lost his influence with the unfallen beings.
However, you bring out that not all of their questions were answered, which is a good point. How would what the 144,000 will do answer any questions the angels might have about God? This isn't clear to me.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/14/05 04:43 PM
quote:
Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve.
When born again believers choose to serve Jesus, instead of Satan, angels will see the contrast between the two - and vice versa. That is, when professing believers choose Satan, instead of Jesus, angels will see the constrast between the two. This constrast will be most obvious during the MOB crisis, especially during the 7 last plagues. It is this constrast that is lacking today, and 2,000 years ago on the cross.
Posted By: Will
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/14/05 09:57 PM
Is the gist of this topic along the lines of you become what you behold? And by beholding Christ we are made more and more like Him from glory to glory?
quote:
2 Corinthians 3:18
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/15/05 07:54 PM
Yes, from glory to glory, from faith to faith, from grace to grace. Please notice that the growth we experience as born again believers is from glory to glory - not from greater sins to lesser sins. "Walking in the Spirit" and in "the mind of the "new man" means maturing in the fruits of the Spirit - not gradually outgrowing our defective traits of character. "By beholding we become changed, morally assimilated to the One who is perfect in character... we become like Him." AG 96.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/16/05 02:16 AM
quote:
When born again believers choose to serve Jesus, instead of Satan, angels will see the contrast between the two - and vice versa. That is, when professing believers choose Satan, instead of Jesus, angels will see the constrast between the two. This constrast will be most obvious during the MOB crisis, especially during the 7 last plagues. It is this constrast that is lacking today, and 2,000 years ago on the cross.
The angels already see the clear distinction between Christ and Satan because of the cross, which unmasked Satan.
quote:
Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken.
Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. (DA 761)
The "last link" of sympathy was broken between Satan and the heavenly world. The angels have more to learn, however.
Q. What is it the angels need to learn regarding what's involved in the Great Controversy?
Q. What does the 144,000 have to do with teaching the angels what they need to learn?
The suggestion that the 144,000 makes clear the difference between Christ and Satan (if I understood you correctly) doesn't make sense to me, because they know Christ and Satan already.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/16/05 07:51 PM
Q. What is it the angels need to learn regarding what's involved in the Great Controversy?
“… angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness.”
Q. What does the 144,000 have to do with teaching the angels what they need to learn?
“The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed.” It’s one thing for the Son of God to obey the law of God, He's got everything to lose, but it’s an altogether different thing for sinful human beings to do it. Satan wasn’t ready to admit defeat when Jesus died on the cross, but when the 144,000 duplicate Jesus’ obedience, during the “time of trouble”, he will be so awe struck that he will not be able to constrain himself – he will concede defeat. But more importantly, he will admit that Jesus is Lord and Saviour, and worthy of worship and adoration.
7:17 What [is] man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him? Job
2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands. Heb.
Man was made a little lower than the angels. Yet when he shall be purified and translated to the heavenly courts, he will be even more privileged than the angels. {TDG 255.5}
The final phase of the atonement has to be completed and through this man shall be exalted above angels. This will teach the good and the evil angels that the Holy Sprit working through depraved human nature can produce not one [Jesus] ;but an army that can stand without a mediator and this will be accomplished during the worst of times.
The last shall be first, and the first last.
3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev. No angel has experience this. The angels will gladly submit because of their witness of the 144,000. The good angels there exalted state and the bad will have to submit that God is just.
Only one has stood upon this earth without a mediator [Jesus], speaking of the 144,000 –
Upon the crystal sea before the throne, that sea of glass as it were mingled with fire,--so resplendent is it with the glory of God,--are gathered the company that have "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name." [REV. 15:2.] With the Lamb upon Mount Zion, "having the harps of God," they stand, the hundred and forty and four thousand that were redeemed from among men; and there is heard, as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of a great thunder, "the voice of harpers harping with their harps." [REV. 14:1-5; 15:3; 7:14-17] And they sing "a new song" before the throne, a song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand. It is the song of Moses and the Lamb,--a song of deliverance. None but the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn that song; for it is the song of their experience,--an experience such as no other company have ever had. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." These, having been translated from the earth, from among the living, are counted as "the first-fruits unto God and to the Lamb." "These are they which came out of great tribulation;" [REV. 14:1-5; 15:3; 7:14-17.] they have passed through the time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation; they have endured the anguish of the time of Jacob's trouble; they have stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God's judgments. But they have been delivered, for they have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." "In their mouth was found no guile; for they are without fault" before God. "Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them." [REV. 14:1-5; 15:3; 7:14-17.] They have seen the earth wasted with famine and pestilence, the sun having power to scorch men with great heat, and they themselves have endured suffering, hunger, and thirst. But "they shall hunger no more; neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat; for the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters; and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." [REV. 14:1-5; 15:3; 7:14-17.] {GC88 648.3}
The 144,000 behold the lamb until they are in no need of a mediator.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/17/05 11:19 AM
quote:
“The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed.” It’s one thing for the Son of God to obey the law of God, He's got everything to lose, but it’s an altogether different thing for sinful human beings to do it. Satan wasn’t ready to admit defeat when Jesus died on the cross, but when the 144,000 duplicate Jesus’ obedience, during the “time of trouble”, he will be so awe struck that he will not be able to constrain himself – he will concede defeat. But more importantly, he will admit that Jesus is Lord and Saviour, and worthy of worship and adoration.
DA 758 says, "Satan was defeated, and knew that his kingdom was lost" so Satan has conceded defeat. He knows he's lost. He's just trying to delay the inevitable as long as possible.
Why do you think the 144,000 will cause Satan to admint Jesus is Lord? Don't you think it's more likely that Jesus Himself is the source of that admission?
My questions remain regarding the 144,000. I agree that they have a special work to do, that they will live without a mediator, and that they will vindicate God's character. What I would like to know is how what they do more fully reveal the principles of the Great Controversy. I don't think it's for Satan's benefit.
The thing that makes the most sense to me is that it's for human beings. God is not willing that any should perish, so He gives a message which will save as many as possible. That makes sense to me. It also makes sense to me that they will reveal things to the unfallen angels which more fully reveal the principles of the Great Controversy. But what are these things? This isn't clear to me.
That sinful man can obey the law is not an issue for unfallen angels. They already know that's true -- they saw Christ do it in our fallen human nature, so that's been settled.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/17/05 07:35 PM
Satan isn't bowing his knee and confessing that Jesus is Lord and Saviour, therefore, something else has to happen that hasn't happen yet, something that will cause Satan to bow with the rest of the unsaved. God will not destroy Satan, or any other unsaved free moral agent, until they have acknowledged the fairness of their destruction and the rightness of God.
Jesus did not accomplish or demonstrate that "something else" on the cross. But He will do it in the hearts and minds of the 144,000 during the time of trouble, and especially during the time of Jacob's trouble. Their faithfulness and obedience, during untold test, trial and temptation, will convince the onlooking universe that the principles of God's kingdom and character are the only way to attain to perfect peace and happiness.
In contrast to this demonstration of unparalleled peace and happiness, is the host of unsaved professed followers of Jesus, who received the mark of the beast, who are clamoring to kill their leaders out of hate and rage and selfish loss. It is the contrast between the saved and unsaved that will finally convince Satan, and all others, that Jesus is right and Satan is wrong.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/20/05 08:11 AM
Satan has known all along that God is right and he is wrong. I cannot believe the Great Controversy is continuing to convince Satan that he is wrong. Do you have any support for your view?
In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I will hold to my view that it is for the benefit of the man that time continues and that 144,000 will manifest the character of God. This makes sense, and is in harmony with a number of inspired texts that quickly come to mind, which I'm sure you are familiar with, so I would cite them because I'm tired (but I can, if asked)
You brought out an interesting item from The Desire of Ages which states that the angels still had more to learn, but have not produced any statements that I'm aware of which bring out how the 144,000 teach the angels principles of the Great Controversy. If you are aware of any statements which shed light on this subject, I would be extremely interested in seeing them. I've very interested in the subject of what the 144,000 accomplish.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/20/05 05:54 PM
quote:
Satan has known all along that God is right and he is wrong. I cannot believe the Great Controversy is continuing to convince Satan that he is wrong. Do you have any support for your view?
1. Why didn't God simply destroy Satan the moment he rebelled?
2. If the holy angels, and the onlooking unfallen universe, are already convinced that the GC has been won, then what is God waiting for?
3. Why did Sister White say that the "angels" needed to see a fuller "contrast" between Christ and Satan before the principles of the GC could be correctly understood? How does the experience of the saved and unsaved, during the TOT, help the angels see this contrast more fully? What affect will it have on Satan?
4. If Satan is, and has been, convinced he deserves to die, if he has already bowed his knee and confessed that Jesus is Lord, if he is convinced that Jesus' way is the only right way, if he is convinced his way is wrong - why doesn't God destroy Satan right now? Why didn't He destroy him at the cross?
5. If the GC, at this point, has nothing to do with Satan, then why doesn't God destroy him now? Does God need Satan in order to teach us, to save us? What purpose does Satan serve now?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/21/05 06:35 AM
Not until the last moment does Satan admit defeat. Not until the last moment is the great controversy clearly understood by the angels. The contrast is clear and obvious.
GC 662-672
Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" It is not love to Jesus that inspires this utterance. The force of truth urges the words from unwilling lips… {GC 662.2}
Now Satan prepares for a last mighty struggle for the supremacy. While deprived of his power and cut off from his work of deception, the prince of evil was miserable and dejected; but as the wicked dead are raised and he sees the vast multitudes upon his side, his hopes revive, and he determines not to yield the great controversy… {GC 663.1}
At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on--an army such as was never summoned by earthly conquerors, such as the combined forces of all ages since war began on earth could never equal… {GC 664.3}
In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the final coronation of the Son of God takes place. And now, invested with supreme majesty and power, the King of kings pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people…{GC 666.1}
As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed… {GC 666.2}
The awful spectacle appears just as it was. Satan, his angels, and his subjects have no power to turn from the picture of their own work… {GC 667.2}
It is now evident to all that the wages of sin is not noble independence and eternal life, but slavery, ruin, and death… {GC 668.3}
Satan seems paralyzed as he beholds the glory and majesty of Christ. He who was once a covering cherub remembers whence he has fallen… {GC 669.1}
… He sees that his hellish plots have been powerless to destroy those who have put their trust in Jesus. As Satan looks upon his kingdom, the fruit of his toil, he sees only failure and ruin… {GC 669.2}
The aim of the great rebel has ever been to justify himself and to prove the divine government responsible for the rebellion. To this end he has bent all the power of his giant intellect. He has worked deliberately and systematically, and with marvelous success, leading vast multitudes to accept his version of the great controversy which has been so long in progress. For thousands of years this chief of conspiracy has palmed off falsehood for truth. But the time has now come when the rebellion is to be finally defeated and the history and character of Satan disclosed. In his last great effort to dethrone Christ, destroy His people, and take possession of the City of God, the archdeceiver has been fully unmasked. Those who have united with him see the total failure of his cause. Christ's followers and the loyal angels behold the full extent of his machinations against the government of God. He is the object of universal abhorrence. {GC 670.1}
Satan sees that his voluntary rebellion has unfitted him for heaven. He has trained his powers to war against God; the purity, peace, and harmony of heaven would be to him supreme torture. His accusations against the mercy and justice of God are now silenced. The reproach which he has endeavored to cast upon Jehovah rests wholly upon himself. And now Satan bows down and confesses the justice of his sentence. {GC 670.2}
… Every question of truth and error in the long-standing controversy has now been made plain. The results of rebellion, the fruits of setting aside the divine statutes, have been laid open to the view of all created intelligences. The working out of Satan's rule in contrast with the government of God has been presented to the whole universe. Satan's own works have condemned him… {GC 670.3}
Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth… {GC 671.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/22/05 09:02 PM
quote:
Satan has known all along that God is right and he is wrong. I cannot believe the Great Controversy is continuing to convince Satan that he is wrong. Do you have any support for your view?
1. Why didn't God simply destroy Satan the moment he rebelled?
2. If the holy angels, and the onlooking unfallen universe, are already convinced that the GC has been won, then what is God waiting for?
3. Why did Sister White say that the "angels" needed to see a fuller "contrast" between Christ and Satan before the principles of the GC could be correctly understood? How does the experience of the saved and unsaved, during the TOT, help the angels see this contrast more fully? What affect will it have on Satan?
4. If Satan is, and has been, convinced he deserves to die, if he has already bowed his knee and confessed that Jesus is Lord, if he is convinced that Jesus' way is the only right way, if he is convinced his way is wrong - why doesn't God destroy Satan right now? Why didn't He destroy him at the cross?
5. If the GC, at this point, has nothing to do with Satan, then why doesn't God destroy him now? Does God need Satan in order to teach us, to save us? What purpose does Satan serve now?
1. God didn't destroy Satan the moment he sinned because it would have been misunderstood as God destroying him rather than sin causing his death. In order that death could be seen as what it really is, something which sin causes, as opposed to something it is not, God killing the offender, Satan's existence was allowed to continue.
Had Satan been allowed to suffer the consequences of sin, his death would have been misunderstood, and beings would have followed God out of fear, which would have created an evil seed of doubt. "By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe." (DA 764)
There are other reasons God did not destroy Satan, but I'll just go with this one for now.
2. I have answered the question that those who do not know are human beings. God is waiting for us, which inspiration makes clear in a number of places (e.g. 2 Pet. 3)
3. This was my question to you.
4. Satan will die when he comes face to face with his sin. This won't happen until the judgment. The judgment happens after everything is over. There are still decisions being made by human beings, so God allows the Great Controversy to continue for their sake.
5. This has been addressed above.
These are good questions, Mike, very good. I don't see how they can be answered in a way which explains the Great Controversy as being continued for Satan's benefit, or, perhaps better stated, to convince him that he is wrong. He already knows he is wrong. He has always known he was wrong, since the beginning. Back when he left heaven, God made it clear to him that he was wrong, and he understood that. It was when he sinned in the light of truth that he commited the unpardonable sin.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/23/05 12:09 AM
1. God didn’t destroy Satan the moment he sinned because the holy angels and unfallen beings of other worlds would not have been able to make the connection between his sin and God’s “strange act” (i.e., punishing and killing a created being). God has not been miraculously protecting Satan and preventing him from reaping the results of his sin and rebellion. Satan will not die, and probably cannot die, until the day God rains down fire upon him.
2. Unfallen, celestial beings are not convinced that the GC has already been won. It is still clearly going on. Human beings are not the only FMAs that are watching and learning from the GC. “Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy… [A]ngels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness.”
3. Satan, during the TOT, will be allowed to tempt mankind without restraints or limitations. When the 144,000 resist his temptations, and remain loyal to God, he will admit and confess that it is possible to obey the law, that true peace of mind depends on it. The witness of the 144,000 will also convince, beyond all shadow of doubt, the rest of the onlooking universe.
4. Satan is not convinced of anything. He is the ultimate insane person, a mad freak, who knows he is lost, but who thinks he will eventually win. God will not, cannot, punish and destroy Satan in the lake of fire until he confesses the lordship of Jesus, until he testifies that he deserves to die, which he hasn’t done yet, and will not until after the Millennium. Notice the words "now" and "fully" in my last post.
5. No, God doesn’t need Satan to teach us or to save us. If Satan were dead and gone right now we would still have to labor to resist temptation. Temptations originate within our sinful nature, as well as without. But Satan is fulfilling a purpose, which is why God hasn’t destroyed him yet. The contrast between Jesus and Satan must be fully developed before God can punish and destroy Satan in the lake of fire. And we are the laboratory, the battlefield, where the principles of Jesus and Satan will eventually be fully developed.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/24/05 10:11 AM
"1. God didn’t destroy Satan the moment he sinned because the holy angels and unfallen beings of other worlds would not have been able to make the connection between his sin and God’s “strange act” (i.e., punishing and killing a created being). God has not been miraculously protecting Satan and preventing him from reaping the results of his sin and rebellion. Satan will not die, and probably cannot die, until the day God rains down fire upon him." quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them........ The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 107, 108)
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly. (Isa. 33:14, 15)
It is God who is the consuming fire, not some arbitrary thing or process. The righteous can abide in God's presence, and to them the light of His glory is life. To the wicked, the light of God's glory is a fire which destroys.
That which is God's strange act is to finally give the wicked up to the result of their choice. Although He cries out, "How can I give you up?" and "Why will you die?", eventually, if His grace is persistently rejected, this is what will happen.
This view of the judgment is entirely in harmony with God's character as it has been revealed in Jesus Christ.
"2. Unfallen, celestial beings are not convinced that the GC has already been won."
Even Satan knows he has lost, let alone the unfallen celestial beings. quote:
Satan was defeated, and knew that his kingdom was lost. (DA 758)
"It is still clearly going on. Human beings are not the only FMAs that are watching and learning from the GC. “Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy… [A]ngels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness.”
I think this is the third time I'm asking you this: What are the unfallen angels learning?
"3. Satan, during the TOT, will be allowed to tempt mankind without restraints or limitations. When the 144,000 resist his temptations, and remain loyal to God, he will admit and confess that it is possible to obey the law, that true peace of mind depends on it. The witness of the 144,000 will also convince, beyond all shadow of doubt, the rest of the onlooking universe.
Convince them of what? That man can obey the law? They already know that; Christ has shown this is possible. They already are convinced that peace of mind depends on obedience to God's law. They are fully convinced of this and fully reconciled to God.
"4. Satan is not convinced of anything. He is the ultimate insane person, a mad freak, who knows he is lost, but who thinks he will eventually win. God will not, cannot, punish and destroy Satan in the lake of fire until he confesses the lordship of Jesus, until he testifies that he deserves to die, which he hasn’t done yet, and will not until after the Millennium. Notice the words "now" and "fully" in my last post.
If Satan knows he's lost, surely the unfallen, celestial beings know that too.
quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
Note:
1) By a life of rebellion, Satan place himself so our of harmony with God that God becomes a consuming fire to him.
2) God's glory destroys him. (remember from above that God is a consuming fire to sin wherever it is found, and the light of His glory will destroy the wicked. Sinners will be destroyed when sin is destroyed if they cling to it)
3) If Satan had been allowed to suffer the results of his sin immediately (i.e. if God had allowed His glory to destroy him), those looking on would have misunderstood it, not realising that Satan's death was the result of sin. That is, they would have mistakently misunderstood what was happening, thinking that it was God who was doing this to him, rather than sin. In order to prevent this misunderstanding (along with other reasons) God permitted Satan's existence to continue. At the end of the Great Controversy, all will understand that it is sin which caused Satan's death, and not an arbitrary act of power of God. (see previous paragraph from DA 764)
"5. No, God doesn’t need Satan to teach us or to save us. If Satan were dead and gone right now we would still have to labor to resist temptation. Temptations originate within our sinful nature, as well as without. But Satan is fulfilling a purpose, which is why God hasn’t destroyed him yet. The contrast between Jesus and Satan must be fully developed before God can punish and destroy Satan in the lake of fire. And we are the laboratory, the battlefield, where the principles of Jesus and Satan will eventually be fully developed."
I agree with this, as long as it is understood that Satan's death will occur as "the inevitable result of sin" rather than as "an arbitrary act of power on the part of God." God's glory will result in Satan's death, because he has placed himself so out of harmony with God that to him God's presence will be a consuming fire.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/24/05 07:43 PM
Tom, can you cite any scriptural stories where God did not take an active role in punishing and destroying unrepentant sinners, where He simply allowed sin to run its course? Actions speak louder than words, and they help explain things that seem to be contradictory. For example, God sent water to destroy the Antediluvians, and He sent fire to destroy the Sodomites. Then, He inspired His prophets and apostles to explain that His behaviour in these circumstances illustrate how He plans to punish and destroy the unsaved at the end of time, in the lake of fire.
Based on how God has dealt with rebellion in the past, and there are many other examples in the Bible, we are left with little doubt as to how He will punish and destroy the unsaved in the lake of fire. There was nothing arbitrary or vindictive about the way God destroyed people in the past, therefore, we have no reason to believe that the way He plans to punish and destroy all the unsaved in the lake of fire, at the end of time, is anything but holy, just and righteous.
During the outpouring of the 7 last plagues, while those who refused to receive the seal of God are writhing in pain and agony, the pure and holy angels, who are witnessing this terrible time of trouble and intense suffering, turn to behold the Lamb of God, clad in the vestments of vengeance and sitting upon His white horse, they are compelled to exclaim:
“Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy… Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.” (Revelation 16:5-7 and 18:6-8)
We must behold the Lamb of God at all times, whether He is forgiving the hideous acts of sinners, or whether He is punishing and destroying sinners who refused to repent of their hideous acts of sin.
“Satan was defeated, and knew that his kingdom was lost.” (DA 758) Yes, but Satan is also insane, that’s why he still believes he will win in the end. “… as the wicked dead are raised and he sees the vast multitudes upon his side, his hopes revive, and he determines not to yield the great controversy… With fiendish exultation he points to the unnumbered millions who have been raised from the dead and declares that as their leader he is well able to overthrow the city and regain his throne and his kingdom.” (GC 663) There are no contradictions between these two insights.
quote:
I think this is the third time I'm asking you this: What are the unfallen angels learning?
The “contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness”, as revealed in the saved and unsaved during the TOT.
quote:
Convince them of what? That man can obey the law? They already know that; Christ has shown this is possible. They already are convinced that peace of mind depends on obedience to God's law. They are fully convinced of this and fully reconciled to God.
Apparently not. How do you explain the “now” and “fully” words used in the GC quote I posted and highlighted above? “It is now evident to all that the wages of sin is not noble independence and eternal life, but slavery, ruin, and death.” (GC 668)
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/24/05 09:10 PM
The following Scriptures bring out the principles that God's wrath is His giving up those who reject Him to the results of their choice. I'll follow this post with another one which expresses the same principle from Spirit of Prophesy quotes.
quote:
"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods." (Deut 31:17, 18)
"They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city.
." (Jer. 33:5)
"For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs.
Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.
Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes." (2 Chron 29: 6, 8)
"And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.
And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight." (2 Kings 17:17-20)
"Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation." (Ps. 27:9)
"How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?" (Ps. 89:46)
"Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit." (Ps. 143:7)
"Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them!" (Hosea 9:12)
"The LORD was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.
And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation (wrath JB) of his anger the king and the priest.
The LORD hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast." (Lam. 2:5-7)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23: And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. (Rom. 1:18-26)
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/24/05 11:47 PM
There are so many SOP statements on this theme (that God's wrath is His giving people over to the results of their choice) that I can only post a very small pct. of these statements.
quote:
Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." (RH 9/17/01)
The character revealed by Pharaoh is similar to that of all the impenitent. God destroys no man; but after a time the wicked are given up to the destruction they have wrought for themselves. (YI 11/30/93)
Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. (GC 589)
The long-suffering of God toward Jerusalem only confirmed the Jews in their stubborn impenitence. In their hatred and cruelty toward the disciples of Jesus they rejected the last offer of mercy. Then God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen. (GC 28)
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. (GC 35)
Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire.(GC 37)
When God’s restraining hand is removed, the destroyer begins his work. (3MR 314)
God could not for a moment stay his hand, or man would faint and die. (DA 207)
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/24/05 11:53 PM
Old Tom: Convince them of what? That man can obey the law? They already know that; Christ has shown this is possible. They already are convinced that peace of mind depends on obedience to God's law. They are fully convinced of this and fully reconciled to God.
Mike: Apparently not. How do you explain the “now” and “fully” words used in the GC quote I posted and highlighted above? “It is now evident to all that the wages of sin is not noble independence and eternal life, but slavery, ruin, and death.” (GC 668)
New and Improved Tom: "It is now evident to all that the wages of sin is not noble independence and eternal life, but slavery, ruin, and death. The wicked see what they have forfeited by their life of rebellion." GC quote, 668.
This is obviously talking about the wicked. My question was directed towards the unfallen angels. What are the principles of the Great Controversy that *they* have left to learn? How does what the 144,000 do help them learn these things?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/25/05 06:37 AM
Tom, I cited the Flood and Sodom as examples of how God will deal with the unsaved in the lake of fire. Am I to assume, from the quotes you posted, that you believe God caused these two events by allowing sin to run its course? I do not dispute that God has employed various means and agencies to punish and destroy unrepentant sinners. But, does this mean God has never taken matters into His own hands?
2 Peter
2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds;)
2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Jude
1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/25/05 07:39 AM
I think the quotes I presented address you question, Mike, especially GC 589 and DA 207.
There's many, many more statements along the lines of the ones I gave. The general principle is that there is no life apart from God, and when one rejects God, one dies.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/25/05 03:40 PM
quote:
If you have some SOP quotes in mind which address this issue, please share them. I'm particularly interested in how and to whom (i.e. for whose benefit) the 144,000 vindicate God's character.
I've found no direct quotes, but I think from these quotes we could infer that the vindication of God's character in His church is not for the benefit of the world only, but of the whole universe:
"As Christ glorified the Father by the demonstration of his love, so the Spirit was to glorify Christ by revealing to the world the riches of his grace. The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of his people." {RH, May 19, 1904 par. 4}
"The purpose which God seeks to accomplish through His people today is the same that He desired to accomplish through Israel when He brought them forth out of Egypt. By beholding the goodness, the mercy, the justice, and the love of God revealed in the Church, the world is to have a representation of His character. And when the law of God is thus exemplified in the life, even the world will recognize the superiority of those who love and serve God above every other people on the face of the earth. The Lord has His eye upon every one of His people, He has His plans concerning each. It is His purpose that those who practice His holy precepts shall be a distinguished people. To the people of God today, as well as to ancient Israel, belong the words written by Moses through the Spirit of inspiration in Deut. 7:6, and 4:5-8. Even these words fail of reaching the greatness and the glory of God's purpose to be accomplished through His people. Not to this world only, but to the universe are we to make manifest the principles of His kingdom." {AUCR, June 1, 1900 par. 45}
"In the lives of God's people the truths of His word are to reveal their glory and excellence. Through His people Christ is to manifest His character and the principles of His kingdom. Satan seeks to counterwork the work of God, and he is constantly urging men to accept his principles. He represents the chosen people of God as a deluded people. He is an accuser of the brethren, and his accusing power is employed against those who work righteousness. The Lord desires through His people to answer Satan's charges by showing the results of obedience to right principles." {COL 296.4}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/26/05 06:29 AM
Tom, I appreciate the fact you emphasize the goodness of God. But the wrath of God is love, too. I'm surprised to learn, though, that you believe Satan caused water to punish and destroy the Antediluvians, and that Satan caused fire to punish and destroy the Sodomites. I guess we will know for sure when we get to heaven and watch the rerun.
I agree with Rosangela, the insights and information contained in the Bible and the SOP infer and imply that the holy angels and the rest of the inhabitants of God's unfallen universe have more to learn regarding the issues related to the great controversy before the "contrast" between Christ and Satan is clear. How it will affect them, or change them, once they see the "contrtast" is not as obvious, but it sure seems to have something to do with the way the saved and the unsaved react and respond to the plagues during the TOT. But it doesn't seem to be completely settled until after the Millennium (according to the "now" and "fully" quotes posted above).
DA 761
Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/27/05 10:03 PM
"Tom, I appreciate the fact you emphasize the goodness of God. But the wrath of God is love, too. I'm surprised to learn, though, that you believe Satan caused water to punish and destroy the Antediluvians, and that Satan caused fire to punish and destroy the Sodomites. I guess we will know for sure when we get to heaven and watch the rerun."
You seem to have gotten off the track. We weren't talking about the flood or Sodom and Gemorrah (at least I wasn't.) You asked for statements regarding God's giving sinners over to the result of their sins, so I provided over a half dozen from Scripture, and about that many from the Spirit of Prophesy (many more could be provided). As far as I am aware, you have not dealt with a single one of these statements (although you asked for them), but instead are trying to change the subject. I'm not interested in discussing the change of subject. You asked for quotes, and I provided them.
"I agree with Rosangela, the insights and information contained in the Bible and the SOP infer and imply that the holy angels and the rest of the inhabitants of God's unfallen universe have more to learn regarding the issues related to the great controversy before the "contrast" between Christ and Satan is clear. How it will affect them, or change them, once they see the "contrtast" is not as obvious, but it sure seems to have something to do with the way the saved and the unsaved react and respond to the plagues during the TOT. But it doesn't seem to be completely settled until after the Millennium (according to the "now" and "fully" quotes posted above)."
I agree that there is something to learn, and have not disputed that. I have asked what it is that they have to learn, and disagreed with some of the answers you were providing for reasons I gave. If you say you don't know, then I can't very well disagree with that.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/27/05 10:41 PM
quote:
Here's what I posted:
I do not dispute that God has employed various means and agencies to punish and destroy unrepentant sinners. But, does this mean God has never taken matters into His own hands?
Yes, God has given Satan permission to wreak havoc, and Satan has dutifully obeyed God. I acknowledge this fact. But you seem to be unwilling to admit that God has also taken matters into His own hands (i.e., the Flood and Sodom), and that inspired authors have cited these “strange acts” as examples of how God will punish and destroy the unsaved in the lake of fire.
Holy angels rejoice and praise God for punishing and destroying the unsaved during the outpouring of the 7 last plagues, and for raining fire down upon the resurrected unsaved and evil angels after the Millennium. Who am I to hold my peace? to hold my tongue from rejoicing with them? to praise God for His “his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.”
DA 761
Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}
This choice is what will help holy angels see the “contrast” that is necessary for them to see in order to “understand all that is involved in the great controversy.” The choice she is referring to is, I assume, the choice to “choose whom he will serve” during the MOB crisis. I realize you disagree with this insight, but it’s what makes sense to me.
Why do you think Satan hasn’t bowed his knee and confessed his guilt? Why do you think he hasn’t admitted that Jesus is Lord, and that he deserves to die in the lake of fire? What do you think it will take to motivate and inspire him to voluntarily make these confessions?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/28/05 06:35 AM
quote:
Yes, God has given Satan permission to wreak havoc, and Satan has dutifully obeyed God.
"Satan has dutifully obeyed God." What does this mean? Do you think it is God's will that children are abused, people are tortured and killed?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/28/05 06:39 AM
Regarding God's wrath, I presented many Scriptures which show that God's wrath is His giving people over to the result of their choices. Do you agree that the Scriptures I presented give this view? If so, then it would not be correct to see God's wrath as something which God does to people, would it? (other than in the sense that He departs from them and leaves them to the results of their choices). For your convenience, I'll repost the texts.
quote:
"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods." (Deut 31:17, 18)
"They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city.
." (Jer. 33:5)
"For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs.
Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.
Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes." (2 Chron 29: 6, 8)
"And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.
And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight." (2 Kings 17:17-20)
"Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation." (Ps. 27:9)
"How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?" (Ps. 89:46)
"Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit." (Ps. 143:7)
"Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them!" (Hosea 9:12)
"The LORD was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.
And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation (wrath JB) of his anger the king and the priest.
The LORD hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast." (Lam. 2:5-7)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23: And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. (Rom. 1:18-26)
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/28/05 03:34 PM
quote:
I'm surprised to learn, though, that you believe Satan caused water to punish and destroy the Antediluvians...
How could this be possible?
As the violence of the storm increased, trees, buildings, rocks, and earth were hurled in every direction. The terror of man and beast was beyond description. Above the roar of the tempest was heard the wailing of a people that had despised the authority of God. Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence. He had delighted to control so powerful a race, and desired them to live to practice their abominations and continue their rebellion against the Ruler of heaven. He now uttered imprecations against God, charging Him with injustice and cruelty. Many of the people, like Satan, blasphemed God, and had they been able, they would have torn Him from the throne of power (PP 99, 100).
Thus, Satan
1) Did not desire the antidiluvians to die, but to live, to practice their abominations and continue their rebellion against the Ruler of heaven.
2) Was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, and feared for his own existence.
3) Uttered imprecations against God, charging Him with injustice and cruelty
So it's clear he didn't cause the flood.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/28/05 05:28 PM
How did the flood get into this discussion? Here is what I wrote:
quote:
You seem to have gotten off the track. We weren't talking about the flood or Sodom and Gemorrah (at least I wasn't.)
If you guys want to talk about the flood, please start a new thread.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/29/05 12:41 AM
quote:
"Satan has dutifully obeyed God." What does this mean? Do you think it is God's will that children are abused, people are tortured and killed?
Job comes to mind. God stipulated the parameters, and Satan complied perfectly. And, how do you explain this famous quote:
GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/29/05 12:48 AM
Yes, I agree that God has used many and various means and methods to punish and destroy unsaved sinners. In some cases He simply withholds His divine protection and terrible things happen. In some cases He commands holy angels to cause death and destruction. In some cases He permits evil angels to spread desolation everywhere. In the end, however, God will take matters into His own hands. He will rain down fire and brimstone upon the unsaved. As we behold the wrath of God, the wrath of the Lamb, we are, along with the holy angels, compelled to praise His holy name.
Isaiah
13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/29/05 01:09 AM
Tom, on page one I posted the following:
quote:
Tom, can you cite any scriptural stories where God did not take an active role in punishing and destroying unrepentant sinners, where He simply allowed sin to run its course? Actions speak louder than words, and they help explain things that seem to be contradictory. For example, God sent water to destroy the Antediluvians, and He sent fire to destroy the Sodomites. Then, He inspired His prophets and apostles to explain that His behaviour in these circumstances illustrate how He plans to punish and destroy the unsaved at the end of time, in the lake of fire.
Based on how God has dealt with rebellion in the past, and there are many other examples in the Bible, we are left with little doubt as to how He will punish and destroy the unsaved in the lake of fire. There was nothing arbitrary or vindictive about the way God destroyed people in the past, therefore, we have no reason to believe that the way He plans to punish and destroy all the unsaved in the lake of fire, at the end of time, is anything but holy, just and righteous.
Then, you posted a bunch of quotes to prove that God doesn't punish or destroy unsaved sinners by killing them. You maintain that God simply allows people to reap what they have sown. In response to those posts I posted the following:
quote:
Tom, I cited the Flood and Sodom as examples of how God will deal with the unsaved in the lake of fire. Am I to assume, from the quotes you posted, that you believe God caused these two events by allowing sin to run its course? I do not dispute that God has employed various means and agencies to punish and destroy unrepentant sinners. But, does this mean God has never taken matters into His own hands?
You reaffirmed your position that God doesn't kill unsaved people, but that rather He simply gives them over to reap the results of their sins. Then, Rosangela provided evidence to the contrary, so you pleaded with us to start a new thread. You've already taken the time to prove that God didn't cause the Flood, or the fires of Sodom, so please post the quotes that refute what Sister White said about it.
This isn't off track. Beholding the wrath of God is as much a part of it as anything else. The wrath of God is love. Angels beheld the wrath of God and praised Him. Can we do less?
Is it the 'wrath of God' that you see when you "Behold the lamb of God"?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/29/05 08:06 AM
quote:
Job comes to mind. God stipulated the parameters, and Satan complied perfectly.
Are you suggesting that Satan was carrying out God's will?
You said, "Yes, God has given Satan permission to wreak havoc, and Satan has dutifully obeyed God." Do you mean by this simply that Satan did not do more than God permitted, or do you mean something more than this (like Satan was actually carrying out God's will -- i.e. it was God's will that Job be tormented, and his children killed, etc.)
Regarding your question on how I would interpret the quote you posted, I would quote it according to the principles of the other quotes I gave, since inspiration does not contradict itself.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/29/05 08:16 AM
quote:
Yes, I agree that God has used many and various means and methods to punish and destroy unsaved sinners. In some cases He simply withholds His divine protection and terrible things happen. In some cases He commands holy angels to cause death and destruction. In some cases He permits evil angels to spread desolation everywhere. In the end, however, God will take matters into His own hands. He will rain down fire and brimstone upon the unsaved. As we behold the wrath of God, the wrath of the Lamb, we are, along with the holy angels, compelled to praise His holy name.
Since God has given us the following principle:
quote:
Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. (GC 35, 36)
how do you decide when God is being schitzophrenic? That is, God has told us that force is contrary to the principles of His government, and He gave His Son for us, who died a terrible death in order to prove this is the case. Yet you still don't believe it, and insist that force *is* a principle of God's government, in fact it appears you believe it is *the* principle of His government. God has told us that He gives people over the deceiver when they refuse His protection, and gives examples (such as from Job) to show what happens when one does this (gives themselves over to Satan's power) and tells us the following:
Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.
Yet in spite of this you insist that it is not Satan, but God, who "kills thousands of children." What exactly could God do or say to convince you that it really is Satan and not He who is responsible for evil in the world?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/29/05 05:38 PM
quote:
Is it the 'wrath of God' that you see when you "Behold the lamb of God"?
Yes, that's part of who God is. And, in the context of the great controversy, especially during the final phase, the wrath of God plays a huge part. Of course, there is more to God than the wrath of God. He is also kind, loving, forgiving, and compassionate. But the wrath of God is no less an act of love. Safe in the arms of God, I do not fear the wrath of God - rather, I respect Him for it. As a parent, I know how hard it is to punish those you love.
Revelation
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.
19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 06:13 AM
Tom, was it God’s will when He promised Adam and Eve, “In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”? Was it God’s will when He gave Satan specific limitations regarding Job and his family? Was it God’s will when He sent water to punish and destroy the Antediluvians? Was it God’s will when He sent fire to punish and destroy the Sodomites? Or, did God just simply give them over to reap the results of their sowing? And, if so, was it God’s will to standby and watch them suffer and die, knowing that He had the power to intervene?
Since you believe all the stories in the OT, where it says God punished and destroyed people, happened as a result of God merely withdrawing His protection, allowing the forces of nature to run its normal course, there is no way you can read those stories literally. There is no doubt in my mind that the Bible means what it says, that I am not required to apply some principle to interpret those stories in a mystic manner. Both the Bible, and the SOP, describe those stories in literal terms. Yes, there are places where symbolic language is used, in the context of God’s wrath, but these insights must be interpreted in light of the literal, not the other way around.
The quote you posted concerning the Jews, and the destruction of Jerusalem, is clearly representative of those cases where God did, indeed, allow a group of people to suffer the consequences of their evil choices. Satan acted, on behalf of God, to punish and destroy those stubborn Jews who refused to “Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.” Luke 16:9. Satan influenced the Romans to afflict the Jews. But this is not the only manner and method God has chosen to mete out punishment. Nor can you cite this case and force all other cases into its mold. Each case is different, but they all share a common thread – God is in control, not Satan.
Therefore, Behold the Lamb of God!
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 06:28 AM
quote:
Of course, there is more to God than the wrath of God. He is also kind, loving, forgiving, and compassionate.
This quote displays a lack of comprehension it appears to me regarding the true nature of God's wrath. God's wrath is not something different that being "kind, loving, forgiving and compassionate." That is, you wrote, "He is also" which implies that God's wrath is not "kind, loving, or forgiving" but of some other character (which would be unkind, unloving and unforgiving).
The true character of God's wrath is that He simply gives those over to the result of their choices. That is to say, He is a respector of freedom. What a person sows, He will reap.
GC 541 and following points out that God would make those who reject Him happy if He could, but they have unfitted themselves to be in His presence. As Isa. 33 puts it, "who can stand with the everlasting burnings?" He gives the answer -- the righteous.
The light of the glory of God is life to the righteous, but death to the wicked (DA 108). God is who He is, which is kind, loving and forgiving, but this character (i.e. glory) is death to the wicked. He doesn't turn around and expose some other dark, hidden, nasty side of His character, but it is the same character -- kind, loving, and forgiving -- which results in the destruction of the wicked.
God's character was fully revealed in Jesus Christ -- fully. There is nothing remaining to be revealed about God that Christ did not reveal. As the SOP puts it, all that man needs to be known about God, and all that *can* be known about God, was revealed in Christ. (I can't find this quote. If someone else can, I'd like to know). So whatever we need to know about God's wrath was revealed in Christ.
What is it that Christ did to those who rejected Him? Did He reign fire from heaven? No, because that is what the enemy would do. He prayed for those who rejected Him, did good to them, and departed from them. This is God's wrath.
Here is the principle explained in Romans:
quote:
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 10:20, 21)
This is God's wrath, or vengeance. He overcomes evil with good. He heaps coals of fire on His enemies head by being kind and good to them. This is just what Christ did, and this is just what God is like.
Now this in no way encourages or excuses sin, because the reality is that sin is deadly. The results of sin can be seen in Jesus Christ. He died a terrible death, not because God was cruel, arbitrary or harsh to Him, as God did nothing to Him other than "deliever Him up". Nevertheless Christ died a terrible death, the same death the wicked will experience, which the Spirit of Prophesy points out many times (one such example is in "Calvary" from the Desire of Ages). Even apart from her, this principle is clear in Scripture, which points out the Christ was made a curse for us (Gal. 3:13) and that He tasted death for every man (Heb. 2:9 -- this death can only be referring to the second death, since men taste the first death for themselves.)
The following Scriptures bring out the truth that God's wrath is His giving people up to the result of their choices: (Jer. 33:5; Deut. 31: 17, 18; 2 Chron. 29:6, 8; 2 Kings 17:17-20; Ps. 27:9; Ps. 89:46; Ps. 143:7; Hos. 9:12; Lam. 2:5-7; Rom. 1:18-26). I won't repost all of these, because I just did that a little earlier in the thread. But here's one of them:
"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods." (Deut 31:17, 18)
Note:
1) My anger.
2) I will forsake them.
3) They shall be devoured.
4) Many evils and troubles shall befall them.
5) The evils come because God is not among them.
6) God hides His face.
All the Scriptures bring out the same point. God does not contradict Himself. His wrath does not mean one thing in one part of Scripture, and something else, something sinister, in other parts. Once again I'll reiterate that everything we need to know, or *can* know, about God was revealed in Christ. He has revealed what God's wrath is by His own actions. Finally, there are much material from the Spirit of Prophesy, of which I quoted just a very small amount, which brings out the principle that God's wrath is His giving people over to the results of their choice. The first chapter in the Great Controversy discusses this principle in great detail, and it would be a good thing to do to read this entire chapter carefully.
To summarize:
1) The wrath of God is not one thing in one part of Scripture, and something else in another.
2) All that can be known of God was revealed in Christ. Therefore the nature of God's wrath can be observed in Christ. The careful student of His life will note that He did not torture and then kill those who disagreed with Him. In fact, to those who would have fire from heaven come down to devore those who did not agree with Him, He explained that such were acting according to a different spirit.
Finally I would suggest sticking with the subject of the judgment of the wicked at the end of time. This is an easier subject to understand than things like the flood and Sodom and Gemorrah and other such. There are principles which are similar, but things which are different. It is because the principles of the judgment are easier to understand that I have refrained, and will continue to refrain, from discussing the flood, Sodom and Gemorrah and such like. If the principles of the judgment are not understood, which are so straighforward and to which there is so much material, in my opinion there's no point in discussing these other issues, and there's no chance they will be understood.
For example, here are statements from the Desire of Ages:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them...The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 107, 108)
This brings out the principle as clearly as can possible be done, it seems to me, that the glory of God destroys those who cling to sin. This same principle is seen over and over again in Scripture. Once this principle is grasped, it can open the understanding to other things.
Mike, When you "Behold the Lamb of God", what is it in beholding Christ that makes you think or see wrath, even the wrath of God?
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 03:18 AM
quote:
The careful student of His life will note that He did not torture and then kill those who disagreed with Him.
Tom, in your conception removing life can never be an act of mercy?
quote:
In fact, to those who would have fire from heaven come down to devore those who did not agree with Him, He explained that such were acting according to a different spirit.
People in Sodom were incorrigible sinners, while the people to whom the disciples were referring still could be saved. This makes all the difference in the world.
Tom, are you a beliver in the teaching that God does not kill or it has been stated another way that God does not destroy?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 07:39 AM
Tom and John, the view you two hold regarding the wrath of God emphasizes the fact God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Which, of course, is true. But your attempts to downplay the "severity" of God undermines justice and judgment. We are adominshed to "behold" the goodness and the severity of God.
Romans
11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Also, the idea that God did not send water and fire to punish and destroy the Antediluvians and the Sodomites ignores the plain and simply stories recorded in the Bible. The idea that God simply allowed the water and the fire to run its natural course undermines the word of God.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 08:22 AM
Old Tom: The careful student of His life will note that He did not torture and then kill those who disagreed with Him.
Rosangela: Tom, in your conception removing life can never be an act of mercy?
Tom: If by "removing life" you mean "allowing one's life to end," certainly this can be an act of mercy.
Old Tom:
In fact, to those who would have fire from heaven come down to devore those who did not agree with Him, He explained that such were acting according to a different spirit.
Rosangela:
People in Sodom were incorrigible sinners, while the people to whom the disciples were referring still could be saved. This makes all the difference in the world.
Tom: What makes the difference is thinking that force is a principle of God's government and a way of solving the problems of sin. It isn't.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 08:31 AM
It appears that I have not made clear that my posts are dealing with the wrath of God in the context of the judgment of the wicked. Please do not ask me any more questions about Sodom and Gemorrah or the flood.
I haven't seen any discussion whatsoever on the posts I quoted from Scriptures or the Spirit of Prophesy regarding the wrath of God. The purpose of these posts was to demonstrate the principle that God's wrath is His giving those who reject Him over to the result of their choices. Which of the Scriptures I presented, or texts from the Spirit of Prophesy do not make that point? Did I establish the point I was trying to establish or not? If I didn't, why not?
I also wrote a long post explaining the concepts in my own words. I think that was one of my better posts. That is, it is always a challenge to convey one's thoughts on topics like this, and I felt in that post that I did a better job than I often feel I did. So I would be happy to answer any questions regarding that post or discuss any of the points made.
Please bear in mind that I am addressing God's wrath in the context of the judgment.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 09:10 AM
Tom, yes, you have clearly articulated one aspect of the wrath of God. The problem is you believe that is the only aspect. But it isn't. You want to avoid discussing the Flood and Sodom, in the context of judgment, but that is precisely the events the Bible uses to describe it. How can we ignore them? When God gave people over to reap the results of their sowing He stipulated the results. Sometimes holy angels carried out His will, sometimes it was evil angels, and other times it was other human beings. But always, in all cases, everything happened according to God's will and plan. When God swallowed Korah and his rebels it was no accident that they happened to be standing where the ground opened and closed.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 09:38 AM
quote:
Tom, yes, you have clearly articulated one aspect of the wrath of God. The problem is you believe that is the only aspect.
This seems to me to be saying that God is schitzoprhenic. Christ taught us to overcome evil with good.
Some of the time God gives people up to the result of their choice, which leads to destruction, but other times He does what? He takes matters into His own hands, destroying them? Why? If leaving them to the result of their choice leads to destruction, why would God do anything other than that?
God is agape, which is self-sacrificing love. It is not possible for anything other than goodness to eminate from God. The light of the glory of God (which is His goodness) is life for the righteous, but death for the wicked. There's no need for God to become devilish and use the principles of the enemy's kingdom, which is force, when His goodness leads to destruction. And it's not possible for God to be other than He is is, which is infinite kindness, goodness and generosity, as revealed in Jesus Christ.
The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that all that needs to be known about God or can be known about God was revealed in Jesus Christ. This means that all we need to know, or can know, about God's wrath was revealed in Jesus Christ. Where did Jesus have wrath which would be along the lines of what you are suggesting? Where did He torture or kill anybody?
Mike:
But it isn't. You want to avoid discussing the Flood and Sodom, in the context of judgment, but that is precisely the events the Bible uses to describe it.
Tom: The best way to study the character of God is by studying Jesus Christ. The whole purpose of His mission was to set men right by reveaing God's character. When we've seen Him, we've seen the Father.
The cross reveals what the result of sin our, and the death that the wicked will die at the judgement. To sin, wherever it is found, God is a consuming fire. Christ said His heart "melts like wax." This was the effect of the glory of God upon sin. This glory, which gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.
Mike:
How can we ignore them? When God gave people over to reap the results of their sowing He stipulated the results.
Tom: The results are inherent in the act itself. As the Spirit of Prophesy puts it, sin separates one from God, who alone is the source of life -- this leads to death. (DA 764)
It's not that God arbitrarily decreed something which would not have been the case had He not spoken -- this is the picture of the enemy, that God is arbitray -- but sin well and truly leads to death (as we can see in the death of Christ) because it separates one from God, who alone is the source of life.
Mike:
Sometimes holy angels carried out His will, sometimes it was evil angels, and other times it was other human beings. But always, in all cases, everything happened according to God's will and plan. When God swallowed Korah and his rebels it was no accident that they happened to be standing where the ground opened and closed.
Tom: Again I would reiterate that if you want to understand the character of God, and His judgment, the place to go is to Jesus Christ. All that needs to be known about God, or can be known about God, is found in Him.
Where did He torture or kill those who disagreed with Him? How did He react to those who rejected Him? By answering these questions, we can determine how God will respond, because when we've seen Jesus, we've seen the Father.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 09:52 AM
Tom, your view of the wrath of God reminds of a grenade. Sinners are like grenades in the hand of God with the pin pulled. As soon as He releases His grip they explode. But this view doesn't explain the flood, the fires of Sodom, the plagues of Egypt, the death of David's son, etc. None of these situations can be explained as natural causes or consequences. They occured because God either caused them Himself or allowed someone else to cause them. Rebelling against the authority of Moses doesn't cause an earthquake to suddenly swallow you up, or cause the Red Sea to suddenly drown you - as if things like this would happen naturally if God wasn't holding back such results.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 01:02 PM
1- Tom, I mean depriving someone of life. Can this never be an act of mercy?
2- You said
quote:
The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that all that needs to be known about God or can be known about God was revealed in Jesus Christ.
This is both in His life and in His death. What killed Christ? Our sins in and of themselves? Or God's wrath against sin?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 08:34 PM
If I may interject here; Jesus endured and suffered the wrath of God, and He tasted the second death before He died the first death, but nothing actually "killed" Him, rather He laid down His life voluntarily and took it up again three days later.
John
10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.
10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 08:49 PM
No, Tom, there is more to God than what Jesus revealed during His sojourn as a human being. The way God, that is, Jesus Christ, dealt with sinners in the OT is what God is like. He is slow to anger but will in no wise clear the guilty.
John
16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show [it] unto you.
16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show [it] unto you.
1 Corinthians
10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 09:21 PM
quote:
If I may interject here; Jesus endured and suffered the wrath of God, and He tasted the second death before He died the first death, but nothing actually "killed" Him, rather He laid down His life voluntarily and took it up again three days later.
I beg to differ, Mike. This is what is called, in theological jargon, one of the "divine paradoxes", that is, statements that are apparently conflicting, but which are just two sides of the same coin.
Christ said nobody took His life from Him (John 10:18), but at the same time He said men would kill Him (Matt. 17:23, Mark 9:31). The fact is that Christ was killed because He let Himself be killed. The Bible says Christ was the Lamb that was slain.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 09:49 PM
quote:
Tom, your view of the wrath of God reminds of a grenade. Sinners are like grenades in the hand of God with the pin pulled. As soon as He releases His grip they explode.
An interesting metaphor.
Regarding the plagues, flood, and so on, once again I would reiterate that you are looking in the wrong place. If you want to understand God's character, the place to look is in Jesus Christ, who was given to us for the very purpose of making God known to us. Where in Christ is seen the picture of God's wrath that you have? Or, more generally, where in Christ is seen the picture of God's character that you have?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 10:08 PM
quote:
Where in Christ is seen the picture of God's wrath that you have? Or, more generally, where in Christ is seen the picture of God's character that you have?
The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, to name a few OT examples, which, by the way, are reiterated in the NT. Jesus is the God of the OT. It was Jesus who punished and destroyed millions of men, women and children with water and fire and war and disease and natural disasters. Sometimes He used holy angels, sometimes He used evil angels. His means and methods are various and many.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 11:23 PM
quote:
1- Tom, I mean depriving someone of life. Can this never be an act of mercy?
"God could not for a moment stay His hand, or man would faint and die." (DA 207). God, in mercy, may remove His staying hand, leading to a person's death.
quote:
2- You said
The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that all that needs to be known about God or can be known about God was revealed in Jesus Christ.
This is both in His life and in His death. What killed Christ? Our sins in and of themselves? Or God's wrath against sin?
I had Christ's life, death and resurrection in mind.
To sin, whereever it is found, God is a consuming fire.
Sin resides in the mind. It is in the mind that's it's destructive power is felt, and it was in Christ's mind that He felt it's destructive power.
The principle of sin is the principle of selfishness. The principle of God's character is the reverse of this -- self-sacrificing love. Our sins were laid upon Christ, meaning that the affected His mind. That impact is related in the Psalms, such as Ps. 22, 40, 69, and 88. In Ps. 40, Christ said, "My sins are more numerous than the hairs of my head." He felt as if our sins were His own, and He felt the anguish the wicked will feel at the end of time when mercy no longer pleads for the guilty race. It was this mental anguish that obscured from Him the hope of the resurrection. He felt as if He would be lost forever.
Pardon a diversion here, but this point is so wonderful it must be made. Christ viewed His personal salvation is less important than yours or mine. His thinking was, "I may be lost, but Rosangela will be saved." He chose, regardless of the cost, to go through with the Plan of Salvation.
Now when we've seen Christ, we've seen the Father, so the cross teaches us that God values our eternal destiny as more important than His own. That's pretty awesome stuff.
Back to your question. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that Christ's death was like the death of the wicked.
"It was the sense of His Father's displeasure which made His cup so bitter. It was not bodily suffering which so quickly ended the life of Christ upon the cross. It was the crushing weight of the sins of the world, and a sense of His Father's wrath." (2T 209)
"Christ felt much as sinners will feel when the vials of God's wrath shall be poured out upon them." (2T 210)
We note a couple of things. First of all, God's wrath is equated with "the sense of His Father's displeasure." Secondly the "vials of God's wrath" is not literal fire.
"Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race." (DA 753)
"The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked." (DA 108)
"To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." (DA 107)
The glory of God is His goodness, His character. The priciple of sin is one of selfishness. So here we have to opposing principles. The result of this opposition is mental anguish and death.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 11:24 PM
Rosangela, the Bible and the SOP mention many things that “killed” Jesus on the cross: our sins, His grief, His broken heart, etc. And, in essence, it is true. Jesus laid down His own life and took it up again to pay our sin debt. But Jesus did not yield up His life, which was being supernaturally sustained in order to endure the horrors of the cross, until He had accomplished the work He came to do.
Was He lucky? Did He resist the throes of death and die in the nick of time? Did men kill Him the moment He finished His work? Or, was Jesus in control on the cross? Is it not a fact that He would have died a natural death in Gethsemane if an angel, Gabriel, hadn’t strengthened Him? Since His life was being supernaturally sustained, no earthly power could take it from Him, no earthly power could kill Him. In this supernatural state only Jesus had the power and authority to lay it down and to take it up again.
In Gethsemane, before He was nailed to the cross, Jesus started tasting the second death. “He had borne that which no human being could ever bear; for He had tasted the sufferings of death for every man.” (DA 694) He finished drinking (i.e., tasting) the cup of God’s wrath on the cross. He consumed and conquered the second death before He laid down His life and died the first death.
DA 758
Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and with His parting breath He exclaimed, "It is finished." John 19:30. The battle had been won. His right hand and His holy arm had gotten Him the victory. {DA 758.1}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 04/30/05 11:28 PM
Mike, the whole purpose of Christ's mission was to set men right by revealing God's character. Where is the picture of God you are seeing present in Christ's mission? I don't see it. If it's not there, it seems to me that Christ failed His mission. Yet He says He succeeded, as does inspiration:
quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." [u]When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men.[/u] (ST 1 /29/90)
Please note that Sodom and Gemorrah, nor the Flood, nor any other OT disasters were referred to here, but the life that Christ lived in the flesh. Once again, you're looking in the wrong place. Look to Christ! That is, Behold the Lamb! (Hey, this might make a good topic)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/01/05 03:06 AM
Yes, Jesus came to reveal God's character and to undo some of the perverted ideas people got from reading the OT. Who hasn't read the OT and thought, Good grief, what kind of god is God? Then, the NT comes along and seems to contradict the OT, until you read the Revelation. And there it is again - God punishing and destroying the unsaved.
So, yeah, we need to understand the wrath of God. We need figure out why He has killed so many people, and why He plans to resurrect them, only to kill them again. Someone needs to explain all of this killing. For a God of love, He sure does a lot of it. And, to top it off, His holy angels applaud it, throwing Him a regular standing ovation.
Your way of explaining it denies the obvious facts recorded in the Bible. Besides you, I don't know of anyone who believes the Flood was nothing more than God withdrawing His hand from holding back the natural consequences of sin, as if the world was poised to implode, and nothing but God was preventing the inevitable. This idea, I hate to say, mocks the word of God.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/01/05 04:02 AM
I'm curious if there's anyone here who agrees with this last post of Mike's. In particular, Rosangela, do you see things this way?
quote:
Yes, Jesus came to reveal God's character and to undo some of the perverted ideas people got from reading the OT. Who hasn't read the OT and thought, Good grief, what kind of god is God? Then, the NT comes along and seems to contradict the OT, until you read the Revelation. And there it is again - God punishing and destroying the unsaved.
Apparently Jesus was lying when He said, "when you've seen Me, you've see the Fahter," because as I understand what you wrote it is basically:
1) God is an ugly God in the OT.
2) The NT comes along, and presents a positive picture of God.
3) Then Revelation comes along to correct our picture of God. He's not the good God of the NT, but the ugly God of the Old.
If this is really how you see God, Mike, I doubt there's anything I can say that would change your perspective. I'm curious, however, as to what it was that you perceive God did to you that caused you to view Him in such a negative way.
The truth is to be found in Christ, not in the OT or Revelation. So as not be misunderstood, what I mean by this is that Jesus Christ is the fullest revelation of God and the rest of Scripture should be reconciled with that picture, not the other way around. He is thw Word of God, God's thought made audible. His mission was to make God's character known, and through that revelation to set us right with Him.
There is no darkness in that picture, only light. There is no dark side of God. There is only love, goodness and forgivenss. All the horrible things that happen to those who reject Him, all without exception, whether in this life or in the life to come, come as a result of separating oneself from He who is the source of love and live and peace. He doesn't lose His patience and vent His pique, but in pity and mercy does all He can to save, and in the end respects the choice of His children who reject Him.
quote:
Your way of explaining it denies the obvious facts recorded in the Bible. Besides you, I don't know of anyone who believes the Flood was nothing more than God withdrawing His hand from holding back the natural consequences of sin, as if the world was poised to implode, and nothing but God was preventing the inevitable. This idea, I hate to say, mocks the word of God.
Regarding this, I can repeat what I've said before which is that I was not addressing the flood or Sodom and Gemorrah. So please quit misrepresenting what I've written. As far as I'm aware, I have not expressed my view on the flood. If I have, without realizing it, you could make my quote known, and I'll retract/correct it, but I'm pretty sure I've never said anything here along the lines of what you're writing (unless I misspoke and wrote something I'm not aware of).
Please respect my wishes on this point. I think I've requested this over a dozen times.
On the topic of Beholding the Lamb.
Mike, When you "Behold the Lamb of God", what is it in beholding Christ that makes you think or see wrath, even the wrath of God?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/01/05 05:14 AM
Tom, it is obvious that you do not believe God sent water and fire to punish and destroy unsaved people. Why you are unwilling to explain it more clearly is a mystery, to me. Since you believe the dreadful things that happened in the OT happened because God withdrew His protection, and allowed Satan to wreak havoc, it does not take a rocket scientist to put two and two together.
John, my view of the wrath of God is a positive view. It portrays God as One who is in control. God is too good, too kind and loving, to spare the rod and spoil the child. He will do whatever it takes to motivates us to turn from our evil ways to Christ and Him crucified. God is not willing that any should perish, but neither will He permit anyone to enter heaven who refuses to crucify the "flesh with the affections and lusts". Jesus' first coming was designed to pay our sin debt. His second coming has an altogether different purpose.
Hebrews
9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
2 Thessalonians
1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Mike, You said a number of things, but you did not say what it is in beholding Christ that makes you think or see wrath.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/01/05 07:07 PM
quote:
Tom, it is obvious that you do not believe God sent water and fire to punish and destroy unsaved people.
I wish things were as obvious to me as they are to you!
quote:
Why you are unwilling to explain it more clearly is a mystery, to me. Since you believe the dreadful things that happened in the OT happened because God withdrew His protection, and allowed Satan to wreak havoc, it does not take a rocket scientist to put two and two together.
Why you think you can read my mind is a mystery to me. Since you seem to understand how I think better than I do, perhaps you can explain it to me, because you are talking about things I'm still trying to figure out.
What's going to happen at the judgment is pretty easy to understand, as we have been given a tremendous amount of very clear information about this point, and are told that Christ's death is similar to what will happen, another event we also have a tremendous amount of information about.
Regarding the other more speculative items which you seem to be intent on discussing, since you insist upon this even though for months I have been declining, things do not seem to me to be so clear. I am convinced that God will operate in accordance to the principles of His government and in harmony with His character, but as to how exactly this happens, things are not so clear to me, which is in large part why I have declined to take part in these discussions.
However, since it's so clear to you how I think, please enlighten me. What happened at the flood? (according to me) What happen in Sodom and Gemorrah (according to me). Me would like to know, since up to now me doesn't, but I look forward to Mike enlightening me.
Thank you.
By the way, after completing the exercise of thinking for me, you may wish to address the questions which were addressed to you.
Thanks again.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/01/05 07:16 PM
Oops! Sorry about that, John. Well, one of the most obvious things in the Bible, especially in the OT, is death and destruction. God, that is, Jesus, is often angry and pouring out His wrath or threatening to pour out His wrath. For example, the list of cursings is way longer than the list of blessings in Deuteronomy chapter 28 (12 verses to 54 verses). Yikes!
Since this sort of thing is a major part of the Bible, the predominate picture of God, it makes sense to reconcile it with the fact - God is love. In the heart of His law, the only part of the Bible He wrote with His own finger (with fire on stone), God said, "I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments." Ex 20:5,6.
There it is, love and hate, smack dab in the middle of God's law. It's unavoidable. Good and evil is a part of the world we live in and the life we live. The wrath of God used to bug me. I can remember sitting in Bible class at academy and thinking, Man, God sucks! All that killing and stuff seemed so out of character. And, nearly every page mentions something about it. Instead of trying to understand it, I turned my back on God.
Eventually, though, I came back to Him - and it. I was determined to make sense out of all the non-sense. Finally, I read Maxwell's book, Can God be Tusted, and that changed everything for me. I also listened to his series on tape, Through the Bible in a Year. Now I see God as someone who is willing to do whatever it takes, shout, scream, shake, spank, etc., to get our attention long enough so that He can speak to us in that still small voice, so full of hope and melody.
By beholding the wrath of the Lamb, I came to know God better than I ever would have known Him without it. I do not fault or blame God for the terrible and dreadful things He was forced to do in order to motivate us to listen to Him, to obey Him, to love Him. As a parent myself, I can relate, albeit in a very limited way, to how He must have felt having to do all those things to the children He loves so much that He gave His only begotten Son to live and die for us.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/01/05 07:28 PM
Mike, this last post of yours was excellent. (I'm not thinking primarily in terms of the content, as my point is not that it is excellent because it is presenting views with which I agree. I would have made the same comment even if I completely disagreed with what you wrote.) Please post more like this! You laid out in very clear terms what you are thinking and why. A lot of times I feel it's like trying to pull teeth to figure out where you are coming from, as you will post (what appears to me) to be a cryptic remark followed by tons of SOP and Biblical references which I can't see how they address the point you are wanting to make.
I think there's truth in what you presented. God will do whatever is necessary in order to get our attention and will often use "emergency measures."
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/01/05 07:31 PM
Tom, if you can read the Bible and the SOP description of the Flood and Sodom and Gomorrah and walk away wondering if God did it or if Satan did it, then I guess you are uncertain. Sorry for assuming you already have it figured out. What is it about the inspired account that leaves you questioning whether God did it or Satan did it? It is so obvious to me, my family, my kids, and everybody else I know personally.
Since the NT cites the water and fire that destroyed millions of OT people to explain what the final judgment will be like, it make sense to study it thoroughly, don't you agree? Setting it aside because you cannot discern who caused them doesn't help you understand the 7 last plagues or the lake of fire. Getting it straight in your mind, I would think, would be a priority, at least at some point in your studies.
Regarding the questions you referred to, would you please do me a favor and post them again? Thank you.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/01/05 07:37 PM
Tom, thank you for the encouragement. I will try and do a better job posting from now on.
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
According to scripture the revelation of God in Christ during the time of his sojourn here on earth is “the brightness of his glory and the express image of his person” and it should be considered as the perspective for all things rather than placing it in perspective of the lesser; for the prophets longed to see his day.
Mike, according to your post above you are not beholding the lamb but beholding all atrocities and then putting the lamb into them.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/02/05 06:12 AM
Mike, is it your contention that God did the things which happened to Job? (e.g. using Satan as an instrument)
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/02/05 03:58 PM
Tom and Mike,
I've tried to compile some passages, both of the Bible and of the SOP, which I consider pertinent to this study.
Although God's retribution for sin often happens at His permission, they many times happen by His direct action or at His command. It is impossible to evade this fact. We could try to attribute episodes like the flood and Sodoma and Gomorrah to the devil, but what is the use of this if we can’t ascribe to the devil God’s commands for His people to kill? The point is that it is incoherent to believe that God can’t take life but can command His people to do so.
Let’s analyze some examples:
1) The episode of the golden calf.
"'Thus says the LORD God of Israel: Each man put his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and kill each one his brother, and each one his neighbor, and each one his kindred.' And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses. And there fell of the people that day about three thousand men" (Ex. 32:27,28).
2) The episode of Baal-Peor:
"And Israel joined himself to Baal-peor. And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said to Moses, Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, so that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel. And Moses said to the judges of Israel, Every one of you kill his men who were joined to Baal-peor" (Numb. 25:3-5).
3)The destruction of the inhabitants of Canaan.
"When the LORD your God shall bring you into the land where you go to possess it, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you, and the LORD your God shall deliver them before you, you shall crush them, completely destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them" (Deut. 7:1,2).
4) The death penalty under the old covenant. Let’s take one example, Deut. 21:18-21.
"If a man has a son who is stubborn and rebels, who will not obey his fathers voice or his mothers voice, even when they have chastened him he will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall lay hold on him and bring him out to the elders of his city, and to the gate of his place. And they shall say to the elders of his city, this son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey our voice. He is a glutton and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones so that he dies. So shall you put evil away from you, and all Israel shall hear and fear."
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/02/05 04:05 PM
What is the explanation for the above passages?
1) The episode of the golden calf.
"Though God had granted the prayer of Moses in sparing Israel from destruction, their apostasy was to be signally punished. The lawlessness and insubordination into which Aaron had permitted them to fall, if not speedily crushed, would run riot in wickedness, and would involve the nation in irretrievable ruin. By terrible severity the evil must be put away. ... Moses now commanded those upon his right hand, who had kept themselves clear of idolatry, to gird on their swords and slay all who persisted in rebellion. 'And there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.' Without regard to position, kindred, or friendship, the ringleaders in wickedness were cut off; but all who repented and humbled themselves were spared. Those who performed this terrible work of judgment were acting by divine authority, executing the sentence of the King of heaven. Men are to beware how they, in their human blindness, judge and condemn their fellow men; but when God commands them to execute His sentence upon iniquity, He is to be obeyed. Those who performed this painful act, thus manifested their abhorrence of rebellion and idolatry, and consecrated themselves more fully to the service of the true God. The Lord honored their faithfulness by bestowing special distinction upon the tribe of Levi." {PP 324}
2) The episode of Baal-peor.
"'And Israel joined himself unto Baal-peor; and the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel. And the Lord said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel. And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baal-peor.' Moses commanded the judges of the people to execute the punishment of God against those who had transgressed, and hang the heads of the transgressors up before the Lord, to cause Israel to fear to follow their example. The Lord commanded Moses to vex the Midianites, and smite them, because they had vexed Israel with their wiles, wherewith they had beguiled them to transgress the commandments of God." {1SP 327}
3) The command to destroy the inhabitants of Canaan.
“It is one of the greatest deceptions that can come upon the mind to imagine ourselves more merciful or just than God. ... Had the Lord spared the inhabitants of Canaan, the Israelites would have been in constant danger of contamination. ...Hence the repeated command addressed to them, to dispossess the Canaanites, by every means in their power, and as fast as they were able to subdue them. The Israelites were not to yield to cowardice, sloth, or self-indulgence, nor to set up their ideas of clemency in opposition to the command of God. ...God knew the dangers to which his people would be exposed. Satan would work through those corrupt idolaters to destroy Israel. ... The apparent severity of God's dealings with the Canaanites did not, as many suppose, proceed from harshness or cruelty. The love of God is beyond our comprehension; it is high as the heavens, and broad as the universe. Every soul whom he has created is precious in his sight,-- so precious that he gave his only begotten Son to die for that lost, perishing sinner. When men shall manifest toward their fellow-creatures a love superior to this, then they may talk of compassion where God has exercised severity.” {ST, January 13, 1881}
4)The death penalty commanded by God in Israel’s theocracy.
"So offensive was this sin [gluttony] in the sight of God that He gave directions to Moses that a child who would not be restrained on the point of appetite, but would gorge himself with anything his taste might crave, should be brought by his parents before the rulers of Israel, and should be stoned to death. The condition of the glutton was considered hopeless. He would be of no use to others, and was a curse to himself. No dependence could be placed upon him in anything. His influence would be ever contaminating others, and the world would be better without such a character; for his terrible defects would be perpetuated.” {CD 133.2}
God is not invested with Satan's attributes. He simply uses of severity with incorrigible, incurable sinners, so that He may save those who can be saved. This happened in the case of the antediluvians, of the sodomites, of the canaanites, of the israelites, and it will happen at the final judgment.
“Like the waters of the flood, the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable. They have no disposition to submit to divine authority. ... In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy he destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan, the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain's and in Noah's day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of his grace. {GC88 543, 544}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/03/05 06:42 AM
Tom, yes, Satan was doing nothing more than God permitted. God was in control. Like the man born blind, it was God's will that Job be tested, not because God questioned Job's loyalty, but because He wanted to showcase his loyalty. Behold the Lamb! The Lamb restored in the heart of Job. Faithfulness during test, trial and temptation reveals the love of God, "shed abroad in our hearts", like nothing else can. That's the whole purpose behind God causing or allowing trouble and tragedy to befall us. "We are His witnesses" IF and WHEN we are faithful!
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/03/05 06:44 AM
Rosangela, excellent work. Thank you. As you know, I totally agree with your findings and conclusions. I'm just glad, and thankful, that Jesus is in control, and not Satan.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/02/05 07:34 PM
Regarding the Biblical quotes posted by Rosangela, do you really believe the things written were God's active will? Or could it be in the same sense as divorce, where Jesus said,
"They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so." (Matt. 19:7, 8)
The underlying question we need to consider is, "What is God like?" Is God really good, as He has presented Himself is Jesus? Or is that a farce, and He is actually cruel and arbitrary, as the enemy has presented Him?
Is it really true that force is not a principle of God's government, as the Spirit of Prophesy often affirmed? Or is force an integral part of God's government, which He falls back on when the gentler methods of love, mercy and compassion don't work?
Is it really true that God is like Jesus?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/02/05 09:18 PM
Regarding the Spirit of Prophesy, here is what she writes in "The Destruction of Jerusalem"
quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 36)
I would like to reiterate, in case this point is lost, although I have stated it many times, that I have been discussing the final judgment in my statements regarding God's wrath.
Notice that she writes "He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest." Now note the following:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
The principle is clear. God will not force the will. He allows those who have rejected Him to suffer the consequences of their choice. This is His wrath.
The consequences of their choice is that they form characters so out of harmony with God's character that His presence is to them a consuming fire, so much so that His glory, which gives life to the righteous, destroys them.
It appears here, as in so many cases, we have several models by which we can look at God, and at the final judgment. We can look at in a cruel, arbitrary light, or as God giving those who reject Him to the results of their choice.
It's similar to considering if God will torture those who reject Him all eternity or not. If one wants to see God that way, there are certainly many texts which will allow for that.
Another example would be the question of whether salvation is by faith alone in Christ or not. If one want to believe that it's not, one can certainly find evidence for that point of view as well.
The bottom line in all of these questions is, what does such and such a point of view tell us about God? Does it uplift Him? Does it present His character in a positive way, as one who is good and kind, merciful, compassionate, gracious and generous? One who is like Jesus? Or does it make Him come across as One who is arbitrary, cruel, harsh, and severe? We should remember that the enemies plan is to present God in a false light so that we will be afraid of Him.
quote:
Satan sought to intercept every ray of light from the throne of God. He sought to cast his shadow across the earth, that men might lose the true views of God's character, and that the knowledge of God might become extinct in the earth.
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/03/05 01:41 AM
"When the LORD your God shall bring you into the land where you go to possess it, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you, and the LORD your God shall deliver them before you, you shall crush them, completely destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them" (Deut. 7:1,2).
Does this look like a permission?
Please pay attention again to the explanation given by Ellen White:
“It is one of the greatest deceptions that can come upon the mind to imagine ourselves more merciful or just than God. ... Had the Lord spared the inhabitants of Canaan, the Israelites would have been in constant danger of contamination. ...Hence the repeated command addressed to them, to dispossess the Canaanites, by every means in their power, and as fast as they were able to subdue them. The Israelites were not to yield to cowardice, sloth, or self-indulgence, nor to set up their ideas of clemency in opposition to the command of God. ...God knew the dangers to which his people would be exposed. Satan would work through those corrupt idolaters to destroy Israel. ... The apparent severity of God's dealings with the Canaanites did not, as many suppose, proceed from harshness or cruelty. The love of God is beyond our comprehension; it is high as the heavens, and broad as the universe. Every soul whom he has created is precious in his sight,-- so precious that he gave his only begotten Son to die for that lost, perishing sinner. When men shall manifest toward their fellow-creatures a love superior to this, then they may talk of compassion where God has exercised severity.” {ST, January 13, 1881}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/03/05 03:10 AM
I would repeat the point of my two previous posts. We are presenting texts which are in apparent disagreement with one another.
From Scriptue we have:
1)God's wrath is His giving people up to the result of their choice.
2)God is like Jesus.
We also have:
1)God's wrath is His torturing and killing people.
2)God is nothing like Jesus.
From the Spirit of Prophesy we have:
1)God's wrath is His giving people up the result of their choice.
2)God is like Jesus.
3)Force is not a principle of God's government.
4)God is not severe, harsh, arbitrary or cruel, as the enemy has presented him to be.
1)God's wrath is torturing and killing people.
2)God is not at all like Jesus.
3)Force is a principle of God's government -- in fact, the defining principle of God's government.
4)God is severe, harsh, cruel and arbitrary, as the enemy has presented Him to be.
From what I've been reading from the responses, there's no disagreement with the points I've made. That is, there is agreement that God's wrath is I have expressed it. The disagreement is over the idea that this is a general principle. The idea is that *sometimes* God's wrath is His giving people over to the result of their sin, but this isn't a complete discription. Sometimes it is God's active choice to torture and kill.
Please keep in mind that the subject we are discussing (at least that I am discussing) is the judgment of the wicked. How are they destroyed? According to the Spirit of Prophesy, it is the "light of the glory of God" which destroys the wicked. (DA 108) Their death is like the death of Christ. (2T something, also DA 753 or so, and other places).
She explicitly relates the death of the wicked to the destruction of Jerusalem, making the specific point that it is due, not to an "act of power of God," but as "the inevitable result of sin".
She points out that God could have destroyed Satan as easily as one casts a pebble, but didn't do so for two reasons:
1)Force is contrary to the principle of God's government.
2)If He had done so, onlookers would have misunderstood Satan + friends death as something God did rather than as the inevitable result of sin.
I cannot see how simply waiting a couple of thousand years changes either 1) or 2). Either force is not a principle of God's government, or it is. Time doesn't change this.
Similarly, if the reason God didn't kill Satan was so it wouldn't be misunderstood as something He did rather than being the inevitable result of sin, killing Satan later rather than sooner wouldn't change this. In fact, it doesn't make any sense to say that God waited for the purpose of showing something not to be so, if in reality the thing is so!
So there appear to be two solutions. One is to tack together the apparently contradictory pictures of God and statements from inspiration, or to interpret the apparently contradictory ones in the light of the other ones. I don't see how one can put together the contradictory statements without winding up with contradictions, so I opt for the principle of explaining apparently contradictory statements in the light of other statements, which is something we do all the time.
For example, consider the following statement:
quote:
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev. 20:10)
How do we understand this? Are the wicked literally cast into a lake of fire where they are tormented for ever and ever? None of us thinks this. We compare Scripture with Scripture and say that "for ever and ever" doesn't mean what we normally think of as forever and ever, but rather some small amount of time (a matter of days, from SOP). So I see no reason why we can't do the same thing with the other statements we are considering.
I should have mentioned a principle early on, which is that God is often presented as doing that which He permits. For example, Isaiah says "I create evil." It says that God killed Saul, that He caused David to number Israel, when we know that Saul killed himself and Satan moved David to number Israel. God sent lying spirits to Ahab is another example. God "made" a covenant with Israel, when they were the ones the formed it based on unbelief. There are many examples of the principle in Scripture.
Keeping this principle in mind, it is not a difficult thing to do to harmonize apparently contradictory statements in Scripture. Above all, as we study God's character, we should bear in mind that the whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal God's character. If we would understand what God is like, we should look to Jesus.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/03/05 03:26 PM
Removing Satan’s life would not be an arbitrary act on the part of God, but it would give the universe the impression that it was so, because the inhabitants of the universe at that time didn’t have a knowledge of all the facts. That’s why God refrained from doing that:
“Even the loyal angels did not fully discern his [Satan's] character. This was why God did not at once destroy Satan. Had He done so, the holy angels would not have perceived the justice and love of God. A doubt of God's goodness would have been as evil seed that would yield the bitter fruit of sin and woe. Therefore the author of evil was spared, fully to develop his character.”--COL 72
After the entrance of sin, the choice for God has always been between an evil and a lesser evil. Letting Satan live was an evil, but taking his life at that time could cause a greater evil. Therefore, God chose the first option. Now, that the universe is already in possession of all the facts, the options for God are either letting Satan and his followers continue living or putting an end to their lives. Removing life is a strange act for God; it goes against His nature. But it is a lesser evil than letting sinful beings live for ever in misery and suffering, besides the potential risk of someone else be led into sin.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/03/05 09:41 PM
quote:
Removing Satan’s life would not be an arbitrary act on the part of God, but it would give the universe the impression that it was so, because the inhabitants of the universe at that time didn’t have a knowledge of all the facts. That’s why God refrained from doing that:
No, this isn't the point she was making (in the quote I was referring to). The point she makes is that had God allowed Satan to experience the "inevitable results of sin" (which is to be destroyed by God's glory, which is reaping the results of what had been sown) then *that* event would have been misunderstood as God's destroying Satan, and *that* is what would have created an evil seed of doubt.
Here's the quote:
quote:
God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/04/05 01:29 AM
quote:
God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
quote:
then *that* event would have been misunderstood as God's destroying Satan
Misunderstood as God’s destroying Satan? What would be misunderstood was the reason for God’s destroying Satan _ that this was the inevitable result of sin.
But it’s a useless effort to try detaching God’s glory from God, as if God’s destroying and His glory’s destroying were two completely different things.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/04/05 01:53 AM
God cast Satan down to hell, when he rebelled in heaven, where he is reserved in chains and darkness until the day of judgment, until the cup of God's indication is poured out without mixture. Satan's judgment is going to be a whole lot worse than it would have been if God had destroyed him immediately, a long time ago, when he was first cast down to hell. Not only will the angels understand why, but they will also praise God and rejoice over the death of Satan.
Job
21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
Job
38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
38:23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
2 Peter
2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds;)
2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2 Peter
3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Jude
1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jeremiah
10:10 But the LORD [is] the true God, he [is] the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
Revelation
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/04/05 07:26 AM
quote:
God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
then *that* event would have been misunderstood as God's destroying Satan.
R: Misunderstood as God’s destroying Satan? What would be misunderstood was the reason for God’s destroying Satan _ that this was the inevitable result of sin.
But it’s a useless effort to try detaching God’s glory from God, as if God’s destroying and His glory’s destroying were two completely different things.
Tom: Of course it's useless to try to detach God's glory from God. God's glory is His goodness, His character. That's what destroys the wicked. "The light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked." (DA 108) The same thing that gives life to the righteous kills the wicked. This could hardly be a literal lake of fire, could it?
The logic in the paragraph in DA 764 is the following:
1)It was not an act of power that destroys the wicked.
2)They are destroyed because they separate themselves from God, who is alone the source of life.
3)Satan and all those who align themselves with him for characters so out of harmony with God that He his very presence (that is, His glory, His character) becomes to them a consuming fire.
4)The glory of God destroys them.
5)God could have allowed this to happen earlier, but it would have been misunderstood as God doing it (i.e. as an arbitrary act of power from God, rather than the "inevitable results of sin")
6)This would have caused an evil seed of doubt to arise, as God's creatures would have served Him out of fear, rather than out of love.
If the only reason a sinner dies is because God does something to kill him, like thought him into a literal lake of fire, this could hardly be characterized at the "inevitable result of sin." This would be "the inevitable result of God's throwing them into a lake of fire." There's a big difference between these two things.
The Spirit of Prophesy is not dealing with the reason for God's destroying Satan. She not talking about this at all in the paragraphs in DA 764, and denies that it is an act of power of God that destroys Satan, declaring instead that it is "the glory of God" (which is His goodness, His character) and "the inevitable results of sin."
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/04/05 03:36 PM
quote:
Of course it's useless to try to detach God's glory from God. God's glory is His goodness, His character. That's what destroys the wicked.
The fact that God’s glory destroys the wicked means God destroys the wicked. The fact that God’s glory kills the wicked means God kills the wicked. That’s what I’m trying to say. How can someone deny that God kills the wicked?
quote:
The same thing that gives life to the righteous kills the wicked. This could hardly be a literal lake of fire, could it?
God’s glory and a literal lake of fire are not incompatible. God’s glory sets the earth on fire and at the same time acts (as His wrath) on the interior of the sinner.
“We read of chains of darkness for the transgressor of God's law. We read of the worm that dieth not, and of the fire that is not quenched. Thus is represented the experience of every one who has permitted himself to be grafted into the stock of Satan, who has cherished sinful attributes. When it is too late, he will see that sin is the transgression of God's law. He will realize that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God's wrath abides on him. This is a fire unquenchable, and by it every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed. Satan strives constantly to lead men into sin, and he who is willing to be led, who refuses to forsake his sins, and despises forgiveness and grace, will suffer the result of his course.” {ST, April 14, 1898}
“When the flood of waters was at its height upon the earth, it had the appearance of a boundless lake of water. When God finally purifies the earth, it will appear like a boundless lake of fire. As God preserved the ark amid the commotions of the flood, because it contained eight righteous persons, he will preserve the New Jerusalem, containing the faithful of all ages, from righteous Abel down to the last saint which lived. Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up." {3SG 87}
“The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away.”{GC 674}
quote:
It was not an act of power that destroys the wicked.
“It is not an act of arbitrary power” is very different from “It is not an act of power”. Power will be exercised in the destruction of the wicked, but not arbitrary power:
“God has given to men a declaration of his character, and of his method of dealing with sin. 'The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty.' [EX. 34:6, 7.] 'All the wicked will he destroy.' 'The transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut off.' [PS. 145:20; 37:38.] The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion; yet all the manifestations of retributive justice will be perfectly consistent with the character of God as a merciful, long-suffering, benevolent being." {GC 541}
quote:
If the only reason a sinner dies is because God does something to kill him, like thought him into a literal lake of fire, this could hardly be characterized at the "inevitable result of sin." This would be "the inevitable result of God's throwing them into a lake of fire." There's a big difference between these two things.
Of course not. If a criminal is condemned to death, his death is the inevitable result of his crime, before being the inevitable result of the means used to execute the penalty.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/05/05 12:52 AM
Old T:Of course it's useless to try to detach God's glory from God. God's glory is His goodness, His character. That's what destroys the wicked.
R:The fact that God’s glory destroys the wicked means God destroys the wicked. The fact that God’s glory kills the wicked means God kills the wicked. That’s what I’m trying to say. How can someone deny that God kills the wicked?
T:If what you mean by "God kills the wicked" is "the glory of God (that is, His goodness, His character -- the same thing that gives life to the wicked) destroys the wicked," I'll buy that. That's not how I would choose to put it, but if that's what you mean, OK.
Old T:The same thing that gives life to the righteous kills the wicked. This could hardly be a literal lake of fire, could it?
R:God’s glory and a literal lake of fire are not incompatible. God’s glory sets the earth on fire and at the same time acts (as His wrath) on the interior of the sinner.
T:This seems plausible to me. I don't have a problem with this interpretation, given that the same thing (God's glory) which slays the wicked is giving life to the righteous.
T:It was not an act of power that destroys the wicked.
R:“It is not an act of arbitrary power” is very different from “It is not an act of power”.
Tom: I disagree. She makes the point over and over again that force is not of God's government, but rather of Satan's. If God destroyed Satan by an act of power rather than Satan's being destroyed as "the inevitable result of sin" because he so hardened himself against God's spirit that he made his own character such that God's presence would be a consuming fire, so that God's glory rather than giving him life, as it does for the righteous, destroys him, then such an act of power would be arbitrary. That's her point. It seems to me you are agreeing with me in principle, as I have agree with the scenario you lined out above.
R: Power will be exercised in the destruction of the wicked, but not arbitrary power:
“God has given to men a declaration of his character, and of his method of dealing with sin. 'The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty.' [EX. 34:6, 7.] 'All the wicked will he destroy.' 'The transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut off.' [PS. 145:20; 37:38.] The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion; yet all the manifestations of retributive justice will be perfectly consistent with the character of God as a merciful, long-suffering, benevolent being." {GC 541}
T: The power will be God's glory, given that it's the light of God's glory, which gives life to the righteous, which destroys the wicked. It's not some arbitrary power which isn't connected with His being Himself -- which is good, "merciful, long-suffering and benevolent."
Old T:If the only reason a sinner dies is because God does something to kill him, like throw him into a literal lake of fire, this could hardly be characterized at the "inevitable result of sin." This would be "the inevitable result of God's throwing them into a lake of fire." There's a big difference between these two things.
R: Of course not. If a criminal is condemned to death, his death is the inevitable result of his crime, before being the inevitable result of the means used to execute the penalty.
T: That's not her point. If you read through what she wrote, she's not talking about about the process of being judge, condemned and executed at all. She's talking about the *means* of the destruction. *That's* what's the "inevitable result of sin" -- not being condemned/judged (which, again, isn't being discussed).
Let's return to this:
quote:
God’s glory and a literal lake of fire are not incompatible. God’s glory sets the earth on fire and at the same time acts (as His wrath) on the interior of the sinner.
You seem to be saying here that it is God's glory which destroys the wicked. If you agree that this same glory, which destroys the wicked, gives life to the righteous, I think we're in agreement (which is more fun). Que que voce acha?
Tom,
I havent read through all of the posts on this thread but just in case nobody has mentioned the withered fig tree...
Christ uttered the words, "Let no fruit grow on thee henceforth forever," presently "the fig tree withered away."
It was JESUS Himself who commanded that no fruit would grow on that tree anymore and the fig tree withered away. Thats wasn't Satan doing that.
The Desire of Ages, page 582, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: A Doomed People
Christ uttered against it a withering curse. "No man eat fruit of thee hereafter forever," He said. The next morning, as the Saviour and His disciples were again on their way to the city, the blasted branches and drooping leaves attracted their attention. "Master," said Peter, "behold, the fig tree which Thou cursedst is withered away."
Christ's act in cursing the fig tree had astonished the disciples. It seemed to them unlike His ways and works. Often they had heard Him declare that He came not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. They remembered His words, "The Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Luke 9:56. His wonderful works had been done to restore, never to destroy. The disciples had known Him only as the Restorer, the Healer. This act stood alone. What was its purpose? they questioned.
God "delighteth in mercy." "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Micah 7:18; Ezek. 33:11. To Him the work of destruction and the denunciation of judgment is a "strange work." Isa. 28:21. But it is in mercy and love that He lifts the veil from the future, and reveals to men the results of a course of sin.
....Jesus had come to the fig tree hungry, to find food. So He had come to Israel, hungering to find in them the fruits of righteousness. He had lavished on them His gifts, that they might bear fruit for the blessing of the world. Every opportunity and privilege had been granted them, and in return He sought their sympathy and co-operation in His work of grace. He longed to see in them self-sacrifice and compassion, zeal for God, and a deep yearning of soul for the salvation of their fellow men. Had they kept the law of God, they would have done the same unselfish work that Christ did. But love to God and man was eclipsed by pride and self-sufficiency. They brought ruin upon themselves by refusing to minister to others. The treasures of truth which God had committed to them, they did not give to the world. In the barren tree they might read both their sin and its punishment. Withered beneath the Saviour's curse, standing forth sere and blasted, dried up by the roots, the fig tree showed what the Jewish people would be when the grace of God was removed from them. Refusing to impart blessing, they would no longer receive it. "O Israel," the Lord says, "thou hast destroyed thyself." Hosea 13:9.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/05/05 07:39 AM
Although the fig tree wasn't mentioned, I am well aware of it. Christ's life was so obviously non-violent and non-destructive, that there's only two possible events one who wishes to hold to a destructive, vengeful, violent view of God can cling to:
1) Christ's cursing the fig tree.
2) Christ's chansing out the money-changers.
However, both of these episodes, upon further investigation, do not support the idea of a vengeful, destructive, violent God.
The cursing of the fig tree was an object lesson for Israel. You quoted this:
quote:
He longed to see in them self-sacrifice and compassion, zeal for God, and a deep yearning of soul for the salvation of their fellow men. Had they kept the law of God, they would have done the same unselfish work that Christ did. But love to God and man was eclipsed by pride and self-sufficiency. [u]They brought ruin upon themselves by refusing to minister to others.[/u]
She talks about the descruction of Israel in great detail in the first chapter of The Great Controversy. In this chapter, she writes the following:
quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 35, 36)
Here the principles are clearly laid out of which the cursing of the fig tree was an object lesson:
1) When God is rejected, He leaves.
2) When God departs, His protection departs with Him.
3) When Satan takes over, chaos ensues.
4) Satan then blames the chaos which he caused upon God.
Satan's whole strategy, from the very beginning, has to misrepresent God, and get people to think God is like he (Satan) is. It's truly distressing how successful he has been at it.
quote:
he very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. (ST 1/20/90)
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/05/05 04:02 PM
Tom,
We are in agreement about most things. The point we do not seem to be in agreement is God’s role in the destruction of sin. To me God will put an end to sin and sinners, while your position seems to be that sin and sinners will put an end to themselves.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/06/05 06:05 AM
Here's a powerful quote Claudia posted elsewhere:
PK 499, 500
In the annals of human history, the growth of nations, the rise and fall of empires, appear as if dependent on the will and prowess of man; the shaping of events seems, to a great degree, to be determined by his power, ambition, or caprice. But in the word of God the curtain is drawn aside, and we behold, above, behind, and through all the play and counterplay of human interest and power and passions, the agencies of the All-merciful One, silently, patiently working out the counsels of His own will. {PK 499.4}
In the end, the vengeance and justice of God will be satisfied:
EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/06/05 08:31 AM
quote:
Tom,
We are in agreement about most things. The point we do not seem to be in agreement is God’s role in the destruction of sin. To me God will put an end to sin and sinners, while your position seems to be that sin and sinners will put an end to themselves.
One could look at it either way. There are quotes in both the Scripture and the Spirit of Prophesy which present both perspectives.
The key point, it seems to me, is that the same thing which gives life to the righteous is that which slays the wicked. (DA 108) If we have that point fixed, I think we'll see the destruction of the wicked in the right light.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/06/05 01:10 PM
"Bob was told by his boss at the local Garden and Nursery shop to fetch a box of seeds from the old metal shed out in back of the store. Bob knew that no one had gone into that shed for years, and it looked a sore sight from the outside, all weathered and blistered. But when he got the jammed door open finally, he had to hold his nose: the inside was full of slime mold and wierd mushrooms that had festered in the dark dampness.
'Sorry boss; that old shed is overun with mold and fungus. It's covered everything and I'm afraid those flower seeds are ruined.'
After a little thought, the boss took Bob back to the shed and instructed him to tear off the roof, just the roof. Bob, puzzled, got to it, but thought his boss was insane.
After 3 weeks of warm spring sunshine and showers, Bob's boss took him back to the shed, and pried open the door. Lo and behold, the shed was packed to the roof with millions of bright and colorful flowers. The mushrooms and mold had all withered and vanished and the boxes had turned to mulch, a perfect starter bed for the store's new crop of potted flowers!"
That's how God's glory kills and yet gives life.
To the mushrooms, the open sky was a "lake of fire".
To the flower seeds, it was "the glory of His face."
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/06/05 02:39 PM
Tom,
This point seems to be just a small detail, but it affects one's whole perspective of things. That's why our views about the law, about the cross, and about justification are essentially different.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/07/05 08:13 AM
The way I see things is that everything stems from God's character. God is unselfish. That's the defining characteristice of Him and the underlying principle of His government. God is good, kind, and gracious, which stem from His being unselfish.
quote:
"Unselfishness, the principle of God's kingdom, is the principle that Satan hates; its very existence he denies. From the beginning of the great controversy he has endeavored to prove God's principles of action to be selfish, and he deals in the same way with all who serve God. To disprove Satan's claim is the work of Christ and of all who bear His name. It was to give in His own life an illustration of unselfishness that Jesus came in the form of humanity. And all who accept this principle are to be workers together with Him in demonstrating it in practical life. To choose the right because it is right; to stand for truth at the cost of suffering and sacrifice--"this is the heritage of the
servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of Me, saith the Lord." Isaiah 54:17 (Ed 154, 155)
Selfishness began in heaven with Satan. It has always been Satan's purpose to vest God with his own attributes, to make others think of God as cruel, harsh, arbitrary, severe and unforgiving. Satan wants us to view God as a being like himself.
When he tempted eve, he appealed to her along selfish lines, and presented God as selfish. When Eve bought into his lies, and Adam, they began to view God as Satan had portrayed Him. Thus they ran and hid. They no longer trusted God. How could He win back their trust?
There was only one way. God must become a man himself, visible and familiar to man's eyes, in order to set man right and keep him right. He must reveal the truth about His character so that man might be healed from the damage which came about from Satan's lies, the fall, and sin.
The whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal God's character, and thus set man right with God. When we see the truth about God, we are healed, set right with God.
Is there anything here you disagree with?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/07/05 08:04 PM
Phil N. D'blanc. Do you mean "fill in the blank" or "fill in the white"?
Sister White wrote about "appeasing" the wrath of God. To some this sounds harsh, but to God, and the unfallen angels, it makes sense. The retribution, the vengeance, and the punishment inflicted upon the unsaved, in the lake of fire, are justified in Christ. "In the retribution inflicted upon the ungrateful husbandmen was portrayed the doom of those who should put Christ to death." (DA 596)
EW 51
The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death--a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 51.2}
EW 218
The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death-- a death from which there will be no hope of resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 218.1}
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/08/05 03:49 AM
Now, Mountain Man; don't be such a literalist about Phil N. D'Blanc. It's a good French family, name, non?
Or your new "name" can be taken as "a man composed of the same material as mountains....rocks!"
It's a real affinity among some to take some things that they wish to be so as literal, and to cast away what requires a change in outlook from the normal human definition.
I noticed that you have ignored the "Bob's Shed" illustration....too simplistic for your tastes or not grisly enough?
quote:
Sister White wrote about "appeasing" the wrath of God. To some this sounds harsh, but to God, and the unfallen angels, it makes sense. The retribution, the vengeance, and the punishment inflicted upon the unsaved, in the lake of fire, are justified in Christ. "In the retribution inflicted upon the ungrateful husbandmen was portrayed the doom of those who should put Christ to death." (DA 596)
It is important to realize who it is that pronounced the judgment upon those husbandmen.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
This is what Jesus answered them,
Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
What does it mean to take the Kingdom of God away from someone?
Posted By: Ikan
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/08/05 11:04 AM
A very important reading John, which I had not noticed before! Thanks!
I will refrain from answering your question in order to allow room for others to come to their own conclusions or take the Word's answer.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/08/05 01:49 PM
quote:
Is there anything here you disagree with?
Tom,
No. But I also believe that removing life is not always an act of force; it can perfectly be an act of mercy.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/08/05 10:50 PM
R:Tom,
No. But I also believe that removing life is not always an act of force; it can perfectly be an act of mercy.
T: I agree with this.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/09/05 03:35 AM
Tom,
If you agree, what's the problem you have with attributing the flood, the destruction of Sodom and other OT episodes to God? Is the problem that you can't see these episodes as acts of mercy?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/09/05 07:52 AM
If I recall correctly, I have explained that I have no interest in discussing either the flood or Sodom and Gemorrah here some 12 or 15 times, and have pointed out repeatedly that all of my comments have been directed towards the judgment of the wicked. So I don't understand your question.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/09/05 01:53 PM
Tom,
I have discussed with Maxwell's followers who believe God kills now but won't kill after the millennium, and have discussed with Maxwell's followers who don't believe God kills either now or after the millennium. But all of them were frank about their positions.
You said you agree that removing life can be an act of mercy, but I don't see how you agree with this.
God's glory kills sinners instantly - this is demonstrated by what happens at Christ's second coming. However, at the final day God's glory won't kill sinners instantly - it will be partially veiled until the wicked face judgment, and then, when God does unveil His glory, the wicked won't be immediately destroyed - their punishment will vary, not only in intensity but also in duration. This shows that their destruction is a deliberate (although reluctant) act on the part of God. God will destroy the wicked in mercy to them - to put an end to their miserable existence - and in mercy to the universe.
[ May 09, 2005, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: Rosangela ]
I would like to say that all this talk about destruction is prevalent in many threads here under any other topic name, but "destruction of the wicked".
I propose that this discussion here has nothing to do with "beholding the Lamb"
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/10/05 07:09 AM
John: The light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked. The light of the glory of God is "beholding the Lamb," isn't it?
Roseangela: Of course the destruction of the wicked is a deliberate act of God. To deny this would be to say that it is accidental.
The wicked suffer in proportion to how well they knew the truth. The more truth they knew, the more painful beholding the lamb will be.
You can't expect to be able to completely extrapolate what will happen in the judgment of the wicked from what happens to the wicked here. The corporate forensic justification of Christ comes into play in this life.
The best way to understand the death and judgement of the wicked is by studying the death of Christ (beholding the Lamb!).
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/10/05 04:04 PM
quote:
The wicked suffer in proportion to how well they knew the truth. The more truth they knew, the more painful beholding the lamb will be.
Of course the punishment will be proportional to the light received, but the duration of their punishment will be decided at the judgment during the millennium, characterizing an imposed punishment.
quote:
The corporate forensic justification of Christ comes into play in this life.
What is this corporate forensic justification and what is its purpose?
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/11/05 02:03 AM
The title of this topic is Behold the Lamb.
In what way are you all actually beholding the Lamb in this topic?
In other words, what is your focus on beholding the Lamb in this topic?
As a Saviour, as a Judge, as a wrathful God, or all of these?
When I think of beholding the lamb, I think of him as Savior and Judge.
This in context of him who said it:
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
When I "Behold the Lamb", I also see that he came to dispel the image of a "wrathful God".
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/15/05 04:14 AM
Psalm 18 says:
25 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright; 26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
This illustrates the principle that our own character impacts how we perceive God. If we are merciful, we will perceive Him as merciful. If we are froward (crooked) we will perceive Him in as froward.
We see many examples of this in the threads here. We are all looking at the same evidence (Bible and Spirit of Prophesy), yet we see totally different things. What is the wrath of God? What is the atonement? Very different pictures of God emerge from the posts written on this subject.
When John was in heaven, he was told noone could open the scroll except for the Lion from the tribe of Judah. He looked and looked and couldn't find a lion. He finally saw a lamb. Aha! That's who they were talking about! It's not a lion, but a lamb.
This is one of my favorite depictions in Scripture. John's perception of Christ was a lamb slain whereas those speaking to him saw Him as a lion. This is an example of the principle that our character and experience shape our perception of God's character.
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/15/05 06:54 AM
Old Tom: The wicked suffer in proportion to how well they knew the truth. The more truth they knew, the more painful beholding the lamb will be.
R: Of course the punishment will be proportional to the light received, but the duration of their punishment will be decided at the judgment during the millennium, characterizing an imposed punishment.
Tom: No, it's decided now. It's determined by the light rejected. It's not an arbitrary determination on the part of God, as if the rejection of light had nothing to do with the suffering the wicked will endure in the end, but it's that very rejection which determines the suffering.
For example, when Adam and Eve sinned in Eden, they fled God's presence. They were uncomfortable around Him. The moneychangers ran from Christ.
quote:
Overpowered with terror, the priests and rulers had fled from the temple court, and from the searching glance that read their hearts. In their flight they met others on their way to the temple, and bade them turn back, telling them what they had seen and heard. Christ looked upon the fleeing men with yearning pity for their fear, and their ignorance of what constituted true worship. (DA 162)
The principle of selfishness cannot abide with self-sacrificing love. It's very uncomfortable to be in God's presence in a state of unbelief. To sin, wherever it is found, God is a consuming fire.
Here is the principle again:
quote:
Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb?
No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. [u]Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them.[/u] The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542)
Old Tom:The corporate forensic justification of Christ comes into play in this life.
R: What is this corporate forensic justification and what is its purpose?
Tom: The principle of corporate forensice justification is that God treats all people as if they had never sinned. By the gift of Christ, God's grace is communicated to all. All live physically by virture of God's grace manifest in Christ.
quote:
Our Lord has said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. . . . For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." John 6:53-55. This is true of our physical nature. To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life. The bread we eat is the purchase of His broken body. The water we drink is bought by His spilled blood. Never one, saint or sinner, eats his daily food, but he is nourished by the body and the blood of Christ. The cross of Calvary is stamped on every loaf. It is reflected in every water spring. (DA 660)
Because of God's grace, those who reject the Holy Spirit's invitations do not feel the result of God's agape against their sin. In the judgment, they will come face to face with God, and the light of His glory, which gives life to the righteous, will cause them pain, suffering, and ultimately death. It's not an arbitrary imposition on the part of God, but the inevitable consequence of sin coming face to face with God's glory apart from the healing which takes place in Christ.
quote:
Psalm 18:25 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright; 26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
This illustrates the principle that our own character impacts how we perceive God. If we are merciful, we will perceive Him as merciful. If we are froward (crooked) we will perceive Him in as froward.
Therefore, it is vital that we allow the revelation of God in the face of Jesus to do its work in us, so that we may behold him as he is, rather than see him as we are.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Joh 18:38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.
Do we see the truth as it is in Jesus?
Do we still expect his servants to fight at the end of time?
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/16/05 12:06 AM
Tom,
My reply is in the thread "Destruction of the Wicked".
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/16/05 07:56 AM
quote:
Therefore, it is vital that we allow the revelation of God in the face of Jesus to do its work in us, so that we may behold him as he is, rather than see him as we are.
Yes. Given the deceitfulness of our hearts, it's amazing God makes any progress at all. On the other hand, given how good God is, it's amazing so few have any conception of His character that is even remotely like that which was revealed in Jesus Christ.
... For God so loved ...
zzzzz ... hmhuh ... How?
The love of God is greater far
than tongue or pen can ever tell
It goes beyond the highest star
and reaches to the lowest hell
The guilty pair, bowed down with care
God gave his Son to win;
His erring child he reconciled,
and pardoned from his sin.
I thought the words of this song are very thoughtful.
Did God send a lamb into this world to appease himself? To reconcile himself?
Posted By: Tom
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/23/05 10:46 PM
quote:
Did God send a lamb into this world to appease himself? To reconcile himself?
He sent a lamb to reveal Himself and to reconcile us.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: Behold the Lamb - 05/25/05 05:39 PM
quote:
Did God send a lamb into this world to appease himself? To reconcile himself?
So that God could be reconciled to man and man to God.
Did God send a lamb into this world to appease himself? To reconcile himself?
quote:
R: So that God could be reconciled to man and man to God.
Did we meet halfway?
What did Christ reconcile to us?
What aspect of God became like us?