"All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139.

Posted By: Mountain Man

"All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/21/05 01:34 AM

FLB 139
All need to understand the process of conversion. The fruit is seen in the changed life. {FLB 139.4}

HP 20
In order to be saved, we must know by experience the meaning of true conversion. It is a fearful mistake for men and women to go on day by day professing to be Christians yet having no right to the name. In God's sight profession is nothing, position is nothing. He asks, Is the life in harmony with My precepts? There are many who suppose that they are converted but who are not able to bear the test of character presented in the Word of God. {HP 20.2}

MAR 237
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. {Mar 237.1}

6BC 1075
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/21/05 01:36 AM

DA 172
A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

CC 292
He might never be able to explain the process of conversion, but he would be able to discern its effect. . . . No human reasoning of the most learned man can define the operations of the Holy Spirit upon human minds and characters; yet they can see the effects upon the life and actions. {CC 292.2}

EV 288
Though we cannot see the Spirit of God, we know that men who have been dead in trespasses and sins, become convicted and converted under its operations. The thoughtless and wayward become serious. The hardened repent of their sins, and the faithless believe. The gambler, the drunkard, the licentious, become steady, sober, and pure. The rebellious and obstinate become meek and Christlike. When we see these changes in the character, we may be assured that the converting power of God has transformed the entire man. {Ev 288.2}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/21/05 01:38 AM

COL 330
God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

DA 676
The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

FLB140
No one can be omnipotent, but all can cleanse themselves from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. God requires every soul to be pure and holy. We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. {FLB 140.4}

TDG 32
God requires moral perfection in all. Those who have been given light and opportunities should, as God's stewards, aim for perfection, and never, never lower the standard of righteousness to accommodate inherited and cultivated tendencies to wrong. Christ took upon Him our human nature, and lived our life, to show us that we may be like Him by partaking of the divine nature. We may be holy, as Christ was holy in human nature. Why then are there so many disagreeable characters in the world? It is because they do not suspect that their disagreeable ways and rough, impolite speech is the result of an unholy heart. {TDG 32.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/21/05 01:41 AM

4BC 1159
The influence of the Spirit upon the human mind will regulate it after the divine order. But the Spirit does not work in a manner and power beyond the human agent's power of resistance. A man may refuse to hear the counsels and admonitions of God… He refuses to correct his defective traits of character, although the Lord has plainly pointed out his work, his privileges, his opportunities, and the advancement to be made. {4BC 1159.5}

6BC 1101
God makes no compromise with sin. A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. {6BC 1101.3}

COL 60
The word of God often comes in collision with man's hereditary and cultivated traits of character and his habits of life. But the good-ground hearer, in receiving the word, accepts all its conditions and requirements. His habits, customs, and practices are brought into submission to God's word. {COL 60.3}

CS 219
Judas had valuable qualities, but there were some traits in his character that would have to be cut away before he could be saved. He must be born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible. His great hereditary and cultivated tendency to evil was covetousness. {CS 219.3}

FE 265
The religious life of a large number who profess to be Christians is such as to show that they are not Christians. They are constantly misrepresenting Christ, falsifying His character. They do not feel the importance of this transformation of character, and that they must be conformed to His divine likeness; and at times they will exhibit a false phase of Christianity to the world, which will work ruin to the souls of those who are brought into association with them, for the very reason that they are, while professing to be Christians, not under the control of Jesus Christ. Their own hereditary and cultivated traits of character are indulged as precious qualifications when they are death-dealing in their influence over other minds. In plain, simple words, they walk in the sparks of their own kindling. {FE 265.1}

4BC 1138
Men may possess capabilities given them in trust of God, but if they are not humble men, daily converted men, as vessels of honor, they will do the greater harm because of their capabilities. If they are not learners of Christ Jesus, if they do not pray and keep their natural hereditary and cultivated tendencies under control, traits of character that God abhors will pervert the judgment of those who associate with them (Letter 31a, 1894). {4BC 1138.5}

4BC 1197
The people of God must cleave to God, else they will lose their bearings. If they cherish hereditary and cultivated traits of character that misrepresent Christ, while professedly His disciples, they are represented by the man coming to the gospel feast without having on the wedding garment, and by the foolish virgins which had no oil in their vessels with their lamps. We must cleave to that which God pronounces to be truth, though the whole world may be arrayed against it (MS 140, 1901). {4BC 1179.7}

AG 235
We must realize that through belief in Him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. {AG 235.5}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/21/05 01:43 AM

DA 311
The tempter's agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God. {DA 311.3}

TDG 1008
Regeneration is the only path by which we can reach the holy city. It is narrow and the gate by which we enter is strait, but along it we are to lead men and women and children, teaching them that in order to be saved, they must have a new heart and a new spirit. The old hereditary traits of character are to be overcome. The natural desires of the soul must be changed. All deception, all falsifying, all evil-speaking must be put away. The new life, which makes men and women Christlike, is to be lived. We are, as it were, to swim against the current of evil. {TDG 108.4}

EV 285
If you will seek the Lord, putting away all evil speaking and all selfishness, and continuing instant in prayer, the Lord will draw nigh to you. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that gives efficacy to your efforts and your appeals. Humble yourselves before God, that in His strength you may rise to a higher standard.-- Manuscript 20, 1905. {Ev 285.2}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/21/05 01:44 AM

SC 57, 58
The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2}

5T 310
If the thoughts are wrong the feelings will be wrong, and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character. {5T 310.1}

4T 17
True conversion is a radical change. The very drift of the mind and bent of the heart should be turned and life become new again in Christ. {4T 17}

RH 7-22-1890
That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. {RH 7-22-1890}

CG 477
The Lord requires perfection from His redeemed family. He expects from us the perfection which Christ revealed in His humanity. {CG 477}

RH 7-30-1901
Many who profess to follow Christ have not genuine religion. They do not reveal in their lives the fruit of true conversion. They are controlled by the same habits, the same spirit of faultfinding and selfishness, which controlled them before they accepted Christ. No one can enter the city of God who has not a knowledge of genuine conversion. In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within. {RH 7-30-1901}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/21/05 01:46 AM

MAR 221
When He comes He is not to cleanse us of our sins, to remove from us the defects in our characters, or to cure us of the infirmities of our tempers and dispositions. If wrought for us at all, this work will all be accomplished before that time. When the Lord comes, those who are holy will be holy still. Those who have preserved their bodies and spirits in holiness, in sanctification and honor, will then receive the finishing touch of immortality. But those who are unjust, unsanctified, and filthy will remain so forever. No work will then be done for them to remove their defects and give them holy characters. The Refiner does not then sit to pursue His refining process and remove their sins and their corruption. This is all to be done in these hours of probation. It is now that this work is to be accomplished for us. {Mar 221.1}

6BC 1072
If we were defective in character, we could not pass the gates that mercy has opened to the obedient; for justice stands at the entrance, and demands holiness, purity, in all who would see God... The change from earth to heaven will not change men's characters; the happiness of the redeemed in heaven results from the characters formed in this life, after the image of Christ. The saints in heaven will first have been saints on earth. {6BC 1072.2}

4T 429
The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. {4T 429.2}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/22/05 05:03 AM

Most likely few people bothered to read all the quotes posted above. It seems like most people do not believe true conversion is a radical change, a radical transformation. Most people seem to believe that genuine conversion occurs gradually, that rebirth is a measured process whereby we eventually outgrow and overcome our defective traits of character, usually little by little.

I am doing my doctoral dissertation on "true and genuine conversion", which is also why I am so interested in this topic. The more I research it the more convinced I become that rebirth and moral perfection are assumed biblical facts. That is, it is assumed that people reading the Bible believe we are born again morally complete (i.e., morally perfect).

From Genesis to Revelation moral perfection is an innate, inherent, intrinsic, fundamental fact. It is simply assumed that born again believers, who abide in Jesus, do not and cannot commit a known sin. Any other view was considered shocking. "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Nowhere in the Bible, or the SOP, is it taught that we are born again morally imperfect, morally defective. Why, then, is it the most popular view of conversion?

Genesis
17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Leviticus
19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God [am] holy.

Matthew
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Romans
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

1 Corinthians
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Colossians
4:12 Epaphras, who is [one] of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

James
1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

1 Peter
1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Revelation
14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

COL 99
Often the question arises, Why, then, are there so many, claiming to believe God's word, in whom there is not seen a reformation in words, in spirit, and in character? Why are there so many who cannot bear opposition to their purposes and plans, who manifest an unholy temper, and whose words are harsh, overbearing, and passionate? There is seen in their lives the same love of self, the same selfish indulgence, the same temper and hasty speech, that is seen in the life of the worldling. There is the same sensitive pride, the same yielding to natural inclination, the same perversity of character, as if the truth were wholly unknown to them. The reason is that they are not converted. They have not hidden the leaven of truth in the heart. It has not had opportunity to do its work. Their natural and cultivated tendencies to evil have not been submitted to its transforming power. Their lives reveal the absence of the grace of Christ, an unbelief in His power to transform the character. {COL 99.1}

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/22/05 09:18 PM

The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes....

The redemption of man is a wonderful theme, and the love manifested to the fallen race through the plan of salvation, can be estimated only by the cross of Calvary. The depth of this love even angels cannot sound. That God could consent to become flesh, and dwell among fallen beings, to lift them up from their helplessness and despair, is an unfathomed mystery....

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)

The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 22)

[M]an was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (GC 762)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/23/05 12:30 AM

Yes, Tom, that is where my dissertation begins - with the great controversy and the plan of salvation. Actually, it starts with God's original plan and purpose for Adam and Eve.

I would appreciate your advice and insight regarding a certain point. The SOP makes it clear that Satan rebelled before Jesus created mankind. In fact, one of the reasons he became jealous of Jesus was because he wasn't invited to participate in the planning phase of mankind.

Satan was banished to earth before Jesus created mankind on the earth. So, I've pondered about why Jesus chose to create mankind on the same planet where Satan was banished. It seems like a rather bold move, doesn't it? I've come up with reasons that make sense to me, but I'd like hear what you think about it before I share them. If someone else reading this post would like to share something about it, that would be appreciated, too.

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/24/05 10:18 AM

quote:
I would appreciate your advice and insight regarding a certain point. The SOP makes it clear that Satan rebelled before Jesus created mankind. In fact, one of the reasons he became jealous of Jesus was because he wasn't invited to participate in the planning phase of mankind.

Satan was banished to earth before Jesus created mankind on the earth. So, I've pondered about why Jesus chose to create mankind on the same planet where Satan was banished. It seems like a rather bold move, doesn't it? I've come up with reasons that make sense to me, but I'd like hear what you think about it before I share them. If someone else reading this post would like to share something about it, that would be appreciated, too.

You're making a couple of assumptions I'm not aware can be substantiated. First of all, I've heard the theory that Satan was upset because he wasn't included in the planning process of the creation of man, but I've never seen a reference to this. I think this is one of the apocraphal EGW things.

Secondly, I believe all the unfallen worlds had trees with forbidden fruit on them, and Satan had access to all of these trees, just like he did on earth. Satan wasn't tied to earth so that he couldn't physically leave it. In Job he is presented as appearing with the other angels at a counsel with God. So Satan was able to go pretty much anywhere he wanted. How God wins the Great Controversy is not by force, but by the revelation of truth; by making clear to all what He is really like and what the principles of His government are in contrast to what Satan is really like and what the priciples of his government are. God wins by eliminating Satan's influence.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/25/05 05:53 AM

Here are some quotes that deal with these insights:

3SG 36
Before the fall of Satan, the Father consulted his Son in regard to the formation of man. They purposed to make this world, and create beasts and living things upon it, and to make man in the image of God, to reign as a ruling monarch over every living thing which God should create. When Satan learned the purpose of God, he was envious at Christ, and jealous because the Father had not consulted him in regard to the creation of man.

SR 27
God knew that such determined rebellion would not remain inactive. Satan would invent means to annoy the heavenly angels and show contempt for His authority. As he could not gain admission within the gates of heaven, he would wait just at the entrance, to taunt the angels and seek contention with them as they went in and out.

CET 98
Then I saw two trees. One looked much like the tree of life in the city. The fruit of both looked beautiful, but of one they could not eat. They had power to eat of both, but were forbidden to eat of one. Then my attending angel said to me, "None in this place have tasted of the forbidden tree; but if they should eat, they would fall." {CET 98.1}

RH 3-9-1886
God's government included not only the inhabitants of heaven but of all the created worlds; and Satan thought that if he could carry the intelligences of heaven with him in rebellion, he could also carry with him the other worlds… The controversy was not to be taken into the other worlds of the universe; but it was to be carried on in the very world, on the very same field, that Satan claimed as his.

PP 78
The holy inhabitants of other worlds were watching with the deepest interest the events taking place on the earth. In the condition of the world that existed before the Flood they saw illustrated the results of the administration which Lucifer had endeavored to establish in heaven, in rejecting the authority of Christ and casting aside the law of God.

ST 2-22-1910
The angels and the holy inhabitants of other worlds watch with intense interest the events taking place on this earth. Now as the close of the great controversy between Christ and Satan draws near …

EW 290
I heard shouts of triumph from the angels and from the redeemed saints, which sounded like ten thousand musical instruments, because they were to be no more annoyed and tempted by Satan and because the inhabitants of other worlds were delivered from his presence and his temptations.

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/25/05 07:35 AM

Thanks for the quotes. I had often heard that Christ was envious of the plan to create man, but hadn't seen the quote.

It sounds like Satan had pretty much free reign to go whereever he wants. It's not until the Millenium that he is bound to earth, right?

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/25/05 03:48 PM

quote:
Satan was banished to earth before Jesus created mankind on the earth.

Mike,

Which quotes could substantiate this?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/25/05 07:04 PM

Rosangela, the following paragraphs are taken from the Story of Redemption. They establish that God created mankind after Satan was banished from heaven and cast down to the earth.

Was Satan allowed to roam the universe and tempt, whenever and however, the unfallen inhabitants of other worlds? Well, the fact God restricted Satan's access to tempt Adam and Eve to the forbidden tree, the fact none of the other FMAs have disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit on their planet, and the fact they are earnestly watching Satan's every move on Earth - these facts imply Satan is focusing his time and attention here and not abroad.

SR 13-31
Then there was war in heaven. The Son of God, the Prince of heaven, and His loyal angels engaged in conflict with the archrebel and those who united with him. The Son of God and true, loyal angels prevailed; and Satan and his sympathizers were expelled from heaven. All the heavenly host acknowledged and adored the God of justice. Not a taint of rebellion was left in heaven. All was again peaceful and harmonious as before. Angels in heaven mourned the fate of those who had been their companions in happiness and bliss. Their loss was felt in heaven. {SR 19.1}

The Father consulted His Son in regard to at once carrying out their purpose to make man to inhabit the earth. He would place man upon probation to test his loyalty before he could be rendered eternally secure. If he endured the test wherewith God saw fit to prove him, he should eventually be equal with the angels. He was to have the favor of God, and he was to converse with angels, and they with him. He did not see fit to place them beyond the power of disobedience. {SR 19.2}

After the earth was created, and the beasts upon it, the Father and Son carried out their purpose, which was designed before the fall of Satan, to make man in their own image. They had wrought together in the creation of the earth and every living thing upon it. And now God said to His Son, "Let us make man in our image." As Adam came forth from the hand of his Creator he was of noble height and of beautiful symmetry. He was more than twice as tall as men now living upon the earth, and was well proportioned. His features were perfect and beautiful. His complexion was neither white nor sallow, but ruddy, glowing with the rich tint of health. Eve was not quite as tall as Adam. Her head reached a little above his shoulders. She, too, was noble, perfect in symmetry, and very beautiful. {SR 20.2}

Satan trembled as he viewed his work. He was alone in meditation upon the past, the present, and his future plans. His mighty frame shook as with a tempest. An angel from heaven was passing. He called him and entreated an interview with Christ. This was granted him. He then related to the Son of God that he repented of his rebellion and wished again the favor of God. He was willing to take the place God had previously assigned him, and be under His wise command. Christ wept at Satan's woe but told him, as the mind of God, that he could never be received into heaven. Heaven must not be placed in jeopardy. All heaven would be marred should he be received back, for sin and rebellion originated with him. The seeds of rebellion were still within him. He had, in his rebellion, no occasion for his course, and he had hopelessly ruined not only himself but the host of angels also, who would then have been happy in heaven had he remained steadfast. The law of God could condemn but could not pardon. {SR 26.1}

His followers were seeking him, and he aroused himself and, assuming a look of defiance, informed them of his plans to wrest from God the noble Adam and his companion Eve. If he could in any way beguile them to disobedience, God would make some provision whereby they might be pardoned, and then himself and all the fallen angels would be in a fair way to share with them of God's mercy. If this should fail, they could unite with Adam and Eve, for when once they should transgress the law of God they would be subjects of God's wrath, like themselves. Their transgression would place them, also, in a state of rebellion, and they could unite with Adam and Eve, take possession of Eden, and hold it as their home. And if they could gain access to the tree of life in the midst of the garden, their strength would, they thought, be equal to that of the holy angels, and even God Himself could not expel them. {SR 27.3}

God assembled the angelic host to take measures to avert the threatened evil. It was decided in heaven's council for angels to visit Eden and warn Adam that he was in danger from the foe. Two angels sped on their way to visit our first parents. The holy pair received them with joyful innocence, expressing their grateful thanks to their Creator for thus surrounding them with such a profusion of His bounty. Everything lovely and attractive was theirs to enjoy, and everything seemed wisely adapted to their wants; and that which they prized above all other blessings, was the society of the Son of God and the heavenly angels, for they had much to relate to them at every visit, of their new discoveries of the beauties of nature in their lovely Eden home, and they had many questions to ask relative to many things which they could but indistinctly comprehend. {SR 29.2}

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/26/05 07:37 AM

One of the quotes presents poignant view of God's character. Christ wept when he explained to Satan that he could not return to heaven, because of the seeds of rebellion that remained in Him. God will also weep for His children at the judgment at the end. He will cry out, "How can I let you go?" He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Regarding Satan and the earth, there's no question that he is concentrating on earth now, but this is after man has fallen. You made the claim that Satan was banished to earth, but it appears that he came to earth of his own free will, as he went to other places in an attempt to tempt other worlds to distrust God. He was successful here, so has continued his efforts here. It would be a waste of time to go to the other worlds. Noone would listen to him.

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/26/05 12:32 PM

Yes, I agree with what Tom said. I don't believe Satan was banished specifically to earth.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/26/05 07:07 PM

It would be interesting to learn the timing of things related to when Satan rebelled and when God created beings on other worlds and tested them with a forbidden tree. I suspect they were created before Satan rebelled as it seems mankind was considered a "new and distinct order" after he was banished from heaven. This suggests that other FMAs were tested with the forbidden tree before Satan rebelled.

1BC 1081
All heaven took a deep and joyful interest in the creation of the world and of man. Human beings were a new and distinct order. They were made "in the image of God," and it was the Creator's design that they should populate the earth (RH Feb. 11, 1902). {1BC 1081.3}

ML 126
Man was the crowning act of the creation of God, made in the image of God, and designed to be a counterpart of God. . . . Man is very dear to God, because he was formed in His own image. {ML 126.2}

FLB 82
Man was created a free moral agent. Like the inhabitants of all other worlds, he must be subjected to the test of obedience ... {FLB 82.2}

Regarding Satan and Earth, it is clear that God "cast him out into the earth", rather than Satan choosing himself to live here because he was unsuccessful in causing FMAs to fall on other planets. I haven't found any convincing evidence that Satan visited other planets. But it seems reasonable to assume. There is one quote where she says, referring to the death of Satan, "... and the inhabitants of other worlds were delivered from his presence and his temptations." (1SG 212)

Revelation
12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Sister White makes a curious comment about the "continent of heaven" and earth. What do you make of it?

SD 244
Though earth was struck off from the continent of Heaven and alienated from its communion, Jesus has connected it again with the sphere of glory. {SD 244.5}

TKM 82
The transgression of man had separated earth from heaven, and finite man from the infinite God. As an island is separated from a continent, so earth was cut off from heaven, and a wide channel intervened between man and God. Jesus bridged this gulf, and made a way for man to come to God{TMK 82.2}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/27/05 07:04 PM

Getting back to "the process of conversion." According to the SOP, what happens during the process of conversion. And, what happens the moment we experience the miracle of rebirth?

DA 172
The wind is heard among the branches of the trees, rustling the leaves and flowers; yet it is invisible, and no man knows whence it comes or whither it goes. So with the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart. It can no more be explained than can the movements of the wind. A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

SC 28, 29
We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness. {SC 28.3}

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

SC 34
Even one wrong trait of character, one sinful desire, persistently cherished, will eventually neutralize all the power of the gospel. Every sinful indulgence strengthens the soul's aversion to God. The man who manifests an infidel hardihood, or a stolid indifference to divine truth, is but reaping the harvest of that which he has himself sown. In all the Bible there is not a more fearful warning against trifling with evil than the words of the wise man that the sinner "shall be holden with the cords of his sins." Proverbs 5:22. {SC 34.1}

Christ is ready to set us free from sin, but He does not force the will; and if by persistent transgression the will itself is wholly bent on evil, and we do not desire to be set free, if we will not accept His grace, what more can He do? We have destroyed ourselves by our determined rejection of His love. "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." "Today if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts." 2 Corinthians 6:2; Hebrews 3:7, 8. {SC 34.2}

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/28/05 06:45 AM

quote:
He[God] was pictured as one who could take pleasure in the sufferings of his creatures. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. (ST 1/20/90)

Given that God has been incorrectly misrepresented as one who is cruel and aribtrary, who causes the suffering and death of His creatures, and Jesus came to reveal the truth about God, in order to set men right with God, I would think one of the first traits of a converted person would be to believe the truth which Christ came to teach.

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/28/05 01:51 PM

Sorry to go back to the subject of Satan visiting other worlds. From the following quote, it seems their test was similar to that of earth's inhabitants, but in these worlds no one has ever approached the tree of knowledge or eaten of its fruit:

The Lord has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green, and the birds there warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. They bore the express image of Jesus, and their countenances beamed with holy joy, expressive of the freedom and happiness of the place. I asked one of them why they were so much more lovely than those on the earth. The reply was, "We have lived in strict obedience to the commandments of God, and have not fallen by disobedience, like those on the earth." Then I saw two trees, one looked much like the tree of life in the city. The fruit of both looked beautiful, but of one they could not eat. They had power to eat of both, but were forbidden to eat of one. Then my attending angel said to me, "None in this place have tasted of the forbidden tree; but if they should eat, they would fall." (EW 39,40)

These two other quotes suggest that until the millennium he will continue to have access to other worlds to tempt them (he must have one of his angels in charge of each unfallen planet):

Here is to be the home of Satan with his evil angels for a thousand years. Limited to the earth, he will not have access to other worlds to tempt and annoy those who have never fallen. It is in this sense that he is bound.--GC 659. {TA 281.2}

I heard shouts of triumph from the angels and from the redeemed saints, which sounded like ten thousand musical instruments, because they were to be no more annoyed and tempted by Satan, and because the inhabitants of other worlds were delivered from his presence and his temptations.--EW 290. {TA 281.3}

[ April 28, 2005, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Rosangela ]

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/28/05 05:30 PM

I recall that the trees of the knowledge of good and evil were taken away after the cross (but I could be making this up).

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/28/05 07:00 PM

It's hard to imagine God giving Satan free reign of the universe, to tempt and annoy unfallen beings without restraint. But the SOP implies it.

ED 301, 302
Between the school established in Eden at the beginning and the school of the hereafter there lies the whole compass of this world's history--the history of human transgression and suffering, of divine sacrifice, and of victory over death and sin. Not all the conditions of that first school of Eden will be found in the school of the future life. No tree of knowledge of good and evil will afford opportunity for temptation. No tempter is there, no possibility of wrong. Every character has withstood the testing of evil, and none are longer susceptible to its power. {Ed 301.6}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/28/05 07:35 PM

Tom, I have never doubted the love and goodness of God. I have always looked to Him as a tender and compassionate Father. Because of this it rarely occurs to me that God is anything but a loving heavenly Father. Throughout my many years of ministry, since 1982, I cannot recall meeting anyone who feared God as someone who is greedy to inflict pain, who is anxious to kill us.

Instead, I frequently run in to people who take God's love for granted, who prey on His great desire to pardon and save us. They view God as someone who is too kind to hold our sins against us, who readily forgives and forgets. Thus, they tend to lightly regard their defects and imperfections, rarely do they repent. I find these people almost impossible to lead to repentance and salvation.

Exodus
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
20:6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

3BC 1166
Very few realize the sinfulness of sin; they flatter themselves that God is too good to punish the offender. But the cases of Miriam, Aaron, David, and many others show that it is not a safe thing to sin against God in deed, in word, or even in thought. God is a being of infinite love and compassion, but He also declares Himself to be a "consuming fire, even a jealous God" (RH Aug. 14, 1900). {3BC 1166.2}

SC 31, 32
But let none deceive themselves with the thought that God, in His great love and mercy, will yet save even the rejecters of His grace. The exceeding sinfulness of sin can be estimated only in the light of the cross. When men urge that God is too good to cast off the sinner, let them look to Calvary. It was because there was no other way in which man could be saved, because without this sacrifice it was impossible for the human race to escape from the defiling power of sin, and be restored to communion with holy beings,--impossible for them again to become partakers of spiritual life,--it was because of this that Christ took upon Himself the guilt of the disobedient and suffered in the sinner's stead. The love and suffering and death of the Son of God all testify to the terrible enormity of sin and declare that there is no escape from its power, no hope of the higher life, but through the submission of the soul to Christ. {SC 31.2}

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/29/05 08:42 AM

quote:
Tom, I have never doubted the love and goodness of God. I have always looked to Him as a tender and compassionate Father.

You wrote the following:

quote:
God is the author of death.

quote:
I think it is obvious that God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable.

quote:
But the fact is, He has killed (i.e. destroyed) hundreds and thousands and millions of people since the Flood, and He will kill millions and billions more in the lake of fire.

You speak of God "satisfying His thirst for vengeance." (this is a direct quote!) I'm having difficulty reconciling your claim that you have "always looked upon God as a tender and compassionate Father" with the other things you write.

The Spirit of Prophesy tells us:

quote:
God was represented as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. He was pictured as one who could take pleasure in the sufferings of his creatures. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. (ST 1/20/90)

If you really want to lead people to repentance, then present to them the picture of God's character is it is in truth, as it was revealed in Christ. It is the goodness of God which leads to repentance.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/30/05 06:50 AM

Tom, if the holy angels rejoice when God punishes and destroys unsaved sinners, who are we to question it? People who deny, or downplay, the wrath of God, the day of vengeance, are either unaware of the truth, or they are willfully ignorant of the truth. "For this they willingly are ignorant." Yes, God is slow to anger, and is not willing that any should perish. He doesn't want to lose one single soul. However, God is not ashamed to punish and destroy sinners who reject or neglect "so great salvation". Here's what the Bible says about the wrath and vengeance of God:

Romans
3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

Romans
11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Romans
12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

2 Thessalonians
1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Hebrews
2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;
2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];

2 Peter
3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Jude
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Deuteronomy
32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; [and that] with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people.

Psalm
58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
58:11 So that a man shall say, Verily [there is] a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

Psalm
94:1 O LORD God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, show thyself.

Psalm
149:6 [Let] the high [praises] of God [be] in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, [and] punishments upon the people;
149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Isaiah
35:4 Say to them [that are] of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come [with] vengeance, [even] God [with] a recompense; he will come and save you.

Isaiah
63:4 For the day of vengeance [is] in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
63:5 And I looked, and [there was] none to help; and I wondered that [there was] none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
63:6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

Jeremiah
11:20 But, O LORD of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I revealed my cause.

Jeremiah
46:10 For this [is] the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Ezekiel
25:12 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because that Edom hath dealt against the house of Judah by taking vengeance, and hath greatly offended, and revenged himself upon them;
25:13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also stretch out mine hand upon Edom, and will cut off man and beast from it; and I will make it desolate from Teman; and they of Dedan shall fall by the sword.
25:14 And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD.
25:15 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the Philistines have dealt by revenge, and have taken vengeance with a despiteful heart, to destroy [it] for the old hatred;
25:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will stretch out mine hand upon the Philistines, and I will cut off the Cherethims, and destroy the remnant of the sea coast.
25:17 And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.

Nahum
1:2 God [is] jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and [is] furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth [wrath] for his enemies.
1:3 The LORD [is] slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit [the wicked]: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds [are] the dust of his feet.
1:4 He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth.
1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
1:6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
1:7 The LORD [is] good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.
1:8 But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.
1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/30/05 06:55 AM

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/30/05 09:05 AM

Mike: Tom, if the holy angels rejoice when God punishes and destroys unsaved sinners, who are we to question it? People who deny, or downplay, the wrath of God, the day of vengeance, are either unaware of the truth, or they are willfully ignorant of the truth. "For this they willingly are ignorant." Yes, God is slow to anger, and is not willing that any should perish. He doesn't want to lose one single soul. However, God is not ashamed to punish and destroy sinners who reject or neglect "so great salvation".

Tom: Those who reject God will die a terrible death. What this death looks like is plainly shown in the death of Christ. It is a death of feeling utterly abandoned by God, of feeling condemnation, of utter darkness, of "gnasing of teeth" as Jesus described it, a death compared to being cast in a lake of fire -- that's how awful it is. To recognize this fact is not to downplay God's wrath, but to recognize the hideoousness of sin. Sin is an awful thing, and God longs to rescue us from it, but if we refuse to allow Him to rescue us, we will die a hideous death. This is God's wrath.

Mike: Here's what the Bible says about the wrath and vengeance of God:

Romans
3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

Tom: The previous verses set the context for these. God is on trial, and though every man prove to be a liar, God will prove to be true. The context of the passage, and Romans as a whole, is the righteousness of God, which was revealed in Jesus Christ. God judges the world, and takes vengence, by revealing truth.

In Romans 1, the wrath of God is shown to be His giving up the wicked to the result of their choice. Three times is speaks of God "giving them up." Paul is speaking here of God's wrath, just a short time after Romans 1, the same way he was a little bit previously.

Mike:

Romans
11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Tom: This is the same priciple I have been enunciating. Those who reject God's grace will suffer the consequences of that choice, which is to be given up. This is the severity of God. The first chapter of "The Great Controversy" goes into this theme in great detail.

Jesus said that those who believe not are condemned. They are condemned because they have not believed, and as a consequence do not like to go to the light, lest their deeds be exposed. The principle here is that the unrepentent are uncomfortable around God. We know this by personal experience, and there are many examples in Scripture. Adam and Eve ran and hid from God. The children of Israel couldn't even bare to look at Moses' face. The wicked when Christ comes call for the mountaints to fall on them rather than to look at the face of He who died to redeem them.

The light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked. This is the wrath of God.

To sin, whereever it is found, God is a consuming fire. For those who repent of sin, that fire works in a way which leads to healing. For those who refuse to respond to God's love, that fire works to destruction. It's the same fire, but the response of the individual causes a different result.

As the Spirit of Prophesy puts it, those who refuse God's mercy form characters which are so out of harmony with God's character that His presence is to them a consuming fire.

This is God's wrath.

Mike:

Romans
12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Tom: This text also brings out the point I've been making. Here's the next two verses:

0Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

These verses bring out how God repays -- by overcoming evil with good.

Mike:

2 Thessalonians
1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Tom: Right, the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, destroys the wicked.

Mike:

Hebrews
2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;
2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];

Tom: How shall we escape indeed. God has gone to great lenghts to demonstrate the truth about Himself, which is that He is gracious, kind, generous, and a respector of freedom. He is not cruel, arbitrary or harsh, as the enemy has portrayed Him to be. He does not torture or kill His children in the end because they reject His overtures of love, but if they refuse to be reconciled to Him, they will die a terrible death, as Christ's death on the cross demonstrated.

I'm going to stop here. I've gone through quite a fer Scriptures here. I'm sure the principles of the others would be the same as those I've discovered. If you want me to consider one or two of the texts I've skipped here, I'm happy to do this.

You have not dealt with any of the Scripture texts or Spirit of Prophesy texts I cited. These texts demonstrate that God's wrath is His giving those who reject Him over to the result of their choice. I went over one of them, the one from Deuteronomy, in detail.

Here's the formula presented in the Scriptures I presented:

1) Because sin is chosen
2) God withdraws
3) Which equals His wrath
4) and results in trouble.

Throwing Satan into the mix, we see that when God's protection is rejected, Satan is given free reign over those who have rejected God, and that he favors some and destroys others. When he destroys, he leads men to view his destructive work as something which God has done, and indeed many ignorantly view things that way. (see e.g. GC 35, 36)

I'd be interested in your comments regarding the Scripture texts and the Spirit of Prophesy texts I presented.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/30/05 09:23 AM

Tom, as I have posted before, you have clearly stated one aspect of the wrath of God. Yes, God gives people over, if they refuse to accept Jesus as their personal Saviour, to reap the consequences of their sinful choices. I agree with you. But, exactly how those consequences have played out has varied throughout the history of God's wrath. How it will play out in the end is something, I suspect, we will never agree on. In time we will both know the truth.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/30/05 11:27 PM

DA 324
When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan. But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one. We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world.

It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. We have only to neglect to ally ourselves with the kingdom of light. If we do not co-operate with the heavenly agencies, Satan will take possession of the heart, and will make it his abiding place. The only defense against evil is the indwelling of Christ in the heart through faith in His righteousness. Unless we become vitally connected with God, we can never resist the unhallowed effects of self-love, self-indulgence, and temptation to sin. We may leave off many bad habits, for the time we may part company with Satan; but without a vital connection with God, through the surrender of ourselves to Him moment by moment, we shall be overcome. Without a personal acquaintance with Christ, and a continual communion, we are at the mercy of the enemy, and shall do his bidding in the end. {DA 324.1}

DA 827
All who consecrate soul, body, and spirit to God will be constantly receiving a new endowment of physical and mental power. The inexhaustible supplies of heaven are at their command. Christ gives them the breath of His own spirit, the life of His own life. The Holy Spirit puts forth its highest energies to work in heart and mind. The grace of God enlarges and multiplies their faculties, and every perfection of the divine nature comes to their assistance in the work of saving souls. Through co-operation with Christ they are complete in Him, and in their human weakness they are enabled to do the deeds of Omnipotence. {DA 827.3}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/30/05 11:34 PM

OHC 48
Christ's overcoming and obedience is that of a true human being. In our conclusions, we make many mistakes because of our erroneous views of the human nature of our Lord. When we give to His human nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the completeness of His humanity. His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. {OHC 48.2}

The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with his instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ; He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God's power to help in every emergency. Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. {OHC 48.3}

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 04/30/05 11:55 PM

quote:
Tom, as I have posted before, you have clearly stated one aspect of the wrath of God.

That "aspect" I have presented is that God's wrath is His giving people over to the result of their choice. This is the only aspect I'm aware of. I presented many texts which the principle. Here's one:

quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 36)

This explains what God's wrath is. It is His withdrawal from the sinner. This is equated with the destruction of the wicked, which is stated here, and many other places to be due to this principle.

What's the other aspect of God's wrath?

Let's follow up on this a bit. Let's say that God had not revealed to us what was going on behind the curtain, so to speak, in Job. We would have thought, as Job's friend's did, that it was God who was doing these things to him. This was Satan's argument:

quote:
11But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. (Job 1:11)

See what Satan is doing here? It was he, not God, who "touched" Job, yet Satan presents it as God doing it. This is what he has always done. He leads people to reject God, and His protection, and then brings destruction, and then blames what he has done as God doing it. This principle is presented also in the GC section quoted above:

quote:
Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the
destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

This is not an aspect of God's wrath, but *the* aspect of God's wrath. Once we understand this principle, everything else falls into place.

It goes like this:

1)Satan wants to separate us from God.
2)He does this by misreprenting God's character, which he does by:
a)Getting man to view God in a false light.
b)By way of this false view of God, lead man to distrust God, and separate himself from God.
c)Once God has been rejected, he undertakes his destructive work.
d)He blames what he has done upon God, to obtain new victims, repeating the whole cycle.

Satan's plan depends on our believing his lies about God's character.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/01/05 03:20 AM

quote:
I agree with you. But, exactly how those consequences have played out has varied throughout the history of God's wrath. How it will play out in the end is something, I suspect, we will never agree on. In time we will both know the truth.

As I have already said, when sinners pass the limits of God's forbearance - there is hell to pay. Just exactly what happens when God withdraws His protection is a matter that varies greatly.

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

You mentioned Job, but you failed to emphasize the fact that God was in control, not Satan. The devil was merely following God's orders, which makes Him more culpable. What happened was according to God’s plan for Job. Otherwise, God would have told Satan to take a hike. He wouldn’t have given Satan permission to test Job’s allegiance and faithfulness. The same thing applies to life and death of Jesus. That is, it was according to God’s plan and desire - all the pain, agony and suffering.

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/01/05 03:41 AM

Mike: As I have already said, when sinners pass the limits of God's forbearance - there is hell to pay. Just exactly what happens when God withdraws His protection is a matter that varies greatly.

Tom: This is true. As pointed out in the list of SOP quotes, when people reject God and He gives them over to Satan, sometimes Satan will make them prosper while other times he makes them suffer. No matter what he does, he will do things in a way to try to make God look bad. How he will try to make God look bad will vary.

Mike: You mentioned Job, but you failed to emphasize the fact that God was in control, not Satan.

Tom: God gave the control over to Satan. That's why Job suffered. It was not God's will that Job suffer, that his children die and so forth, but Satan's. If you misuderstand this, you've missed the whole point of the book.

Mike: The devil was merely following God's orders, which makes Him more culpable.

Tom: If it were true that Satan were following God's orders, that would indeed make God more culpable. It's hard for me to imagine why anyone would have such negative thoughts about God, and even more confusing as to why anyone would want to server such a God.

Mike: What happened was according to God’s plan for Job. Otherwise, God would have told Satan to take a hike. He wouldn’t have given Satan permission to test Job’s allegiance and faithfulness. The same thing applies to life and death of Jesus. That is, it was according to God’s plan and desire - all the pain, agony and suffering.

Tom: What is it that has caused you to have such a negative view of God? God has never desired that any of His children know anything of the sin, misery and pain that sin has brought. He wants nothing but good for His creatures.

quote:
Not a sigh is breathed, not a pain felt, not a grief pierces the soul, but the throb vibrates to the Father's heart.The Bible shows us God in His high and holy place, not in a state of inactivity, not in silence and solitude, but surrounded by ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands of holy intelligences, all waiting to do His will. Through channels which we cannot discern He is in active communication with every part of His dominion. But it is in this speck of a world, in the souls that He gave His only-begotten Son to save, that His interest and the interest of all heaven is centered. God is bending from His throne to hear the cry of the oppressed. To every sincere prayer He answers, "Here am I." He uplifts the distressed and downtrodden. In all our afflictions He is afflicted. (DA 356)

quote:
In the Garden of Eden was the "tree of knowledge of good and evil. . . . And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat." Genesis 2:9-17. [u]It was the will of God that Adam and Eve should not know evil.[/u] The knowledge of good had been freely given them; but the knowledge of evil,--of sin and its results, of wearing toil, of anxious care, of disappointment and grief, of pain and death,--this was in love withheld. (Ed 23)

It was Satan's will that Adam and Eve should know sin, misery, pain and death -- not God's!

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/01/05 04:47 AM

Mike, Why do you not open up a topic on "the destruction of the wicked" or "God's wrath"

I do not understand what it has here to do with "what needs to be understood in the process of conversion". Except it is that the concept that you are bringing forth, is that of the unconverted mind that sees God as an enemy; while the converted mind sees his Love.

Is that what you are contending?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/01/05 04:53 AM

Yes, of course, Tom. But what God preferred is not what happened. Mankind sinned. Now, the rules are different. God uses our experiential knowledge of evil to grow us as Christians. Are you suggesting that Satan isn't working within the constraints of God? Are you saying that Satan has full control? that he is free to do as he pleases? that God has no say so? The fact God regulated how Satan troubled Job is good news, not a sad commentary.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/01/05 04:55 AM

Good idea, John. What do you make of the parts of this thread that speak to the process of conversion?

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/01/05 06:21 AM

Well, in view of things so far here, for starters "conversion" certainly means a change. It means a change in the one being converted.

Since we are dealing with spiritual change, we realize that there has to be a change in the mind which is at enmity with God, to a mind which is in harmony with God.

Therefore:
doubt needs to replaced with faith;
error with truth;
malice with goodwill;
selfishness with love;
wrath with mercy;
accusation with forgiveness;
lust with joy;
revenge with longsuffering;
pride with meekness;
fear with peace;
...

I think these things should ring a bell.

Now if these are just ideas or ideals for an ideal world, I do not know how much practice we can have here. But if it is God's way of dealing with and the overthrow of sin, then we have something from God that enables us to live above sin in this sinful world, and we are at the same time reconciled with God in our hearts and minds, having seen that his spirit in us, has such a righteousness as we never dreamt before.

Now I do not know that God wants us to be one thing while he is another thing. But that the purpose of conversion, salvation or reconcilliation is that we would be reconciled to that which he is.

This is what I have found in him.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/02/05 06:38 AM

I like your list, John. Sister White made a similar list in the following quotes:

DA 173
While the wind is itself invisible, it produces effects that are seen and felt. So the work of the Spirit upon the soul will reveal itself in every act of him who has felt its saving power. When the Spirit of God takes possession of the heart, it transforms the life. Sinful thoughts are put away, evil deeds are renounced; love, humility, and peace take the place of anger, envy, and strife. Joy takes the place of sadness, and the countenance reflects the light of heaven. No one sees the hand that lifts the burden, or beholds the light descend from the courts above. The blessing comes when by faith the soul surrenders itself to God. Then that power which no human eye can see creates a new being in the image of God. {DA 173.1}

6BC 1101
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again (RH April 12, 1892). {6BC 1101.1}

And, of course, the apostle Paul made a list, too, in the following passage:

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

DA 676
When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/01/05 07:16 PM

Mike: The devil was merely following God's orders, which makes Him more culpable.

Tom: If what you mean by this remark is that Satan can only do what God permits him to do, your communication skills need a great deal of improvement. To "follow God's orders" implies that Satan was carrying out God's will. It is this idea I was taking exception to. So, by way of clarification, by "following God's orders" to you mean:
A) Doing what God has commanded (i.e. carrying out God's will; i.e. it was God's will that Job be tormented and his children killed)
B) Satan could only do what God permitted him to do.

If what you mean is B), there was no point in your bringing this up, as no one disputes this and it was not germain to the discussion.

Regarding the questions you asked me, there was nothing unclear in anything I wrote, and you already know the answers to the questions you asked me, which were rhetorical. If you have a legimate question about something I wrote of which you are truly unsure as to my meaning, please re-ask the question, and I will be happy to answer it.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/01/05 08:35 PM

Tom, it was God who first brought up Job when Satan showed up at the meeting of the sons of God. It was God who outlined, both times, what Satan could not do to Job. Yes, God aaparently left it up to Satan to decide exactly what to do, but, nevertheless, God owned responsibility for what happened to Job. And, Job charged God with it, and it wasn't considred a foolish or sinful charge. So, according to both God and Job, what happened to Job was God's will.

Job
1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand; but save his life.
2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

So, was it God's will that Satan kill Job's family and flocks? Yes, apparently so. Instead of doubting the obvious, I am more interested in learning WHY it was God's will. Which takes me to the life and death of Jesus. Was it God's will that Jesus live and die for us? Absolutely! No question about it. From this I learn that God uses death to teach us lessons about life. There are plenty of examples, in the Bible, of people facing death unto the honor of glory of God. Is death God's will? Yes, sometimes it is. He doesn't always use death, though. Sometimes He uses blindness.

John
9:1 And as [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man which was blind from [his] birth.
9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/02/05 01:28 AM

Thank you Mike for some nice thoughts, but you quickly go back to

quote:

So, was it God's will that Satan kill Job's family and flocks? Yes, apparently so. Instead of doubting the obvious, I am more interested in learning WHY it was God's will.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Mike, you talk out of two sides of your mouth like the two sides of your coin; wrath & love.

My point about your two quotes above is: that on the one side you are telling that it is God’s wrath and righteousness that kills, destroys, and murders etc.; on the other hand you are quoting scripture that they who do such things cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Now either God is unlike his kingdom, or the God you are talking about is not the one that is to come. So we must be saved from the God that was to the God that will be, and in the meantime he wants us to be it before he is it.

Mike: Instead of doubting the obvious, I am more interested in learning WHY it was God's will.

John: What is it that is not being doubted here? Could it be that you are taking Satan’s perspective as obviously God's, and then wanting to know why it is God’s will?

Are you really interested in learning what is God’s will?

There is inherent a lack of reality to the meaning of your comments, and it tends to reflect back to your picture of God’s ‘preprogram’ for everything (another way of saying “rerun”; you cannot rerun what has not previously been programmed), and therefore everything is as planned, hence his will; hence no love, no faith, no sin, no reality, etc.

If you were willing to consider the possibility of God not being like that, and that maybe he is what he wants us to be, we might get somewhere.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/02/05 02:20 AM

Okay, John, for the sake of discussing the "process of conversion", I'll assume your view of the wrath of God is correct, and that mine is wrong. I'll assume the same regarding the foreknowledge of God. Where does that leave us? What do you think? Are we born again with or without our defective traits of character?

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

SC 33
Every act of transgression, every neglect or rejection of the grace of Christ, is reacting upon yourself; it is hardening the heart, depraving the will, benumbing the understanding, and not only making you less inclined to yield, but less capable of yielding, to the tender pleading of God's Holy Spirit. {SC 33.2}

SC 34
Christ is ready to set us free from sin, but He does not force the will; and if by persistent transgression the will itself is wholly bent on evil, and we do not desire to be set free, if we will not accept His grace, what more can He do? We have destroyed ourselves by our determined rejection of His love. "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." "Today if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts." 2 Corinthians 6:2; Hebrews 3:7, 8. {SC 34.2}

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/02/05 03:53 AM

Is perceiving God to be entirely different that He actually is a "defective trait of character?"

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/02/05 04:32 AM

According to the Bible or the SOP - What is a defective trait of character? How do we end up with one?

PS - Do Job foolishly charge God with being responsible for what happened to him and his family?

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/02/05 05:45 AM

Thank you Mountain Man for your willingness to consider a different view; I see it has already yielded quotes that are meaningful. I hope you will be willing to pursue that thought for a while.

Where does that leave us?

It leaves us in a very clear and simple place. We are by fallen nature, all those things that we need to be saved from. He is all that we need to be saved to.

Therefore:
doubt is replaced with faith;
error with truth;
malice with goodwill;
selfishness with love;
wrath with mercy;
accusation with forgiveness;
lust with joy;
revenge with longsuffering;
pride with meekness;
fear with peace;
Covetousness with grace

There is nothing in God that we need to be saved from, and there is nothing in us that we need to save.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/02/05 05:50 AM

Mike: What do you think? Are we born again with or without our defective traits of character?

John: This question is contrary to the spirit of grace of being born again.

It is akin to the question or suggestion of the serpent to Eve that God did not make them complete.

How would you ever find out? Let us see, what are defective traits of character? Doubt, malice, selfishness, pride, lust, covetousness, fearfulness, etc. How will you find out whether you do not have these? You see you are at that point brought to think like Satan thought about Job.

God does not look like that and neither must we. We must not reject or neglect the grace of God in order to look to see if there are defects. Any self-assessment is bound to be of doubt, produce accusation and banish the grace of God. Satan is a master of deception and he will use the law of God for that very purpose; the purpose of self-assessment. In that way the law is not of grace. Satan would like to hold us in accusation, and condemnation. But God’s work is to justify.

Who is he that condemns, it is God that justifies. He is the one that saves us, except we accept his grace, accept his spirit in our soul, and move, think, and have our being in him; we will be painfully aware of our gracelessness. So our life is hid with Christ in God, and we in him. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

What are the traits of character of the born again? We see faithfulness, truth, goodwill, love, mercy forgiveness, joy, peace, meekness, longsuffering, patience… . Now where these abound that is grace.

You see faith does not look at self; it looks at God. Since its eyes are on God, God is what faith sees. Once we have learned to rest our faith in God then we look through his eyes. Faith sees what God is doing and when he has accomplished it and thus it moves from Glory to Glory.

So what am I trying to convey.

You see the real truth of the matter is to see and have “God’s righteousness apart from the law” by the faith of Jesus.

Do you understand what that is?

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/02/05 06:10 AM

quote:
Did Job foolishly charge God with being responsible for what happened to him and his family?

Given that Job did not know of Satan's existence, I don't think we should judge Job harshly. Given what Job knew, how else could he have thought?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/03/05 06:08 AM

John, well said. I take it from what you posted that we are born again with the fruits of the Spirit, that we are born again without the fruits of the flesh. Of course, I agree. But, what about self examination? What about post-conversion repentance?

2 Corinthians
13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 John
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

1SM 89
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2 Cor. 13:5). Closely criticize the temper, the disposition, the thoughts, words, inclinations, purposes, and deeds. How can we ask intelligently for the things we need unless we prove by the Scriptures the condition of our spiritual health? {1SM 89.1}

HP 131
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith" (2 Cor. 13:5). Some conscientious souls, on reading this, immediately begin to criticize their every feeling and emotion. But this is not correct self-examination. It is not the petty feelings and emotions that are to be examined. The life, the character, is to be measured by the only standard of character, God's holy law. The fruit testifies to the character of the tree. Our works, not our feelings, bear witness of us. {HP 131.2}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/03/05 06:27 AM

Tom, if, as you say, Job ignorantly held God accountable for what happened to him, then was he guilty of sin? a sin of ignorance? Was he guilty of a defective trait of character? Or, should we imitate his example?

ML 328
From the depths of discouragement and despondency Job rose to the heights of implicit trust in the mercy and the saving power of God. Triumphantly he declared: "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him." {ML 328.5}

1SM 117, 118
The Lord permits circumstances to come that call for the exercise of the passive graces, which increase in purity and efficiency as we endeavor to give back to the Lord His own in tithes and offerings... It is by suffering that our virtues are tested, and our faith tried. It is in the day of trouble that we feel the preciousness of Jesus. You will be given opportunity to say, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him" (Job 13:15). Oh, it is so precious to think that opportunities are afforded us to confess our faith in the face of danger, and amid sorrow, sickness, pain, and death. {1SM 117.4}

TDG 348
You feel that had it not been for this great loss you would be a comparatively happy man. But it may be that the very loss of your child here will be to you, and not to you only but to many in Switzerland, for the saving of souls. Light will come out of this darkness which to you at times seems incomprehensible. "The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord" (Job 1:21). Let this be the language of your heart. {TDG 348.2}

LS 252
When I stood by my first-born, and closed his eyes in death, I could say, "The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." And I felt then that I had a comforter in Jesus. And when my latest born was torn from my arms, and I could no longer see its little head upon the pillow by my side, then I could say, "The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." {LS 252.4}

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/02/05 09:34 PM

The statements you presented say only positive things about Job. They seem to agree with the point I was making, so I'm missing your point.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/02/05 11:13 PM

No, Tom, those quotes totally contradict what you said about Job. You said Job held God accountable for what happened to his children and flocks because he was ignorant of the existence and machinations of Satan. In contrast to this opinion, Sister White also praised God for the death of her children, and she encouraged another to do the same. God takes credit for what He causes Himself and for what He allows others to do for Him.

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/03/05 12:53 AM

I don't think that's what I said. I think what I said is that one should not be harsh in judging Job because he didn't know about Satan. I'm just about certain that's what I said, as that's what I think.

You seem to have an inordinately difficult time in expressing what I think. Why don't you do what I've suggested a number of times, and simply quote what I say? That would obviate the difficulty you have in paraphrasing my thoughts.

At any rate, if I said what you say I did, please show me where I said that. I don't think I've said anything along the lines of what you said I did.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/03/05 05:30 AM

Here's a short history leading up to my last post:

quote:
Tom - Given that Job did not know of Satan's existence, I don't think we should judge Job harshly. Given what Job knew, how else could he have thought?

Mike - Tom, if, as you say, Job ignorantly held God accountable for what happened to him, then was he guilty of sin? a sin of ignorance? Was he guilty of a defective trait of character? Or, should we imitate his example? [I quoted several SOP passages]

Tom - The statements you presented say only positive things about Job. They seem to agree with the point I was making, so I'm missing your point.

Tom, please help me translate this exchange of ideas. Thank you.

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/03/05 08:24 AM

Well I'm missing yours too, so I guess we're even.

I think your point is that Job held God responsible for what was happening, and that's a good thing. Is that it? We should hold God accountable for the evil that happens in the world? Or am I misunderstanding you?

You seem to think I said something negative against Job, at least that how it appeared to me. I'm not aware that I said anything against Job.

Job obviously was in error in thinking that God was harming him, but since he didn't know of Satan's existence, what else could he have thought? His attitude, "though He slay me, yet will I trust Him" was admirable, and the best he could have, given what he knew.

This seems to be getting quite of the subject of the thread, the process of salvation. If you want to open a thread regarding what our attitude should be when bad things happen to us, that might be an interesting thing to pursue.

Or if you want to open one regarding whether we should hold God responsible for the evil in the world, that would OK too.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/03/05 05:32 PM

Responsible? Accountable? Yes! God gets the credit for causing or permitting anything and everything that happens on earth to humans. He is in control, not sin, not self, not Satan. It is our duty and privilege to praise and thank God "in" and "for" everyhting that happens - the good, the bad, and the ugly. Ellen White, who knew all about Satan, repeated the words of Job when her children died untimely deaths. She gave God the credit, not Satan. Was she in error, too?

Ephesians
5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Thessalonians
5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/04/05 06:03 AM

Okay, getting back to the "process of conversion", again. According to the Steps to Christ quotes posted below Jesus reveals all of our defects of character with one ray of the glory of God, one ray of His purity. Of course, this happens during the process of conversion, before we experience the miracle of rebirth.

This insight, therefore, makes it clear that there are no hidden flaws, no secret sins, that escape God's notice, nothing that Jesus doesn't reveal to us. Everything is exposed. But, and more importantly, everything is exposed and revealed in the context of the cross. Any defect we refuse to confess and forsake, at this critical point in the process of conversion, stalls the process and we remain unconverted.

But if we did not resist the love of God, if we cooperate with the agencies of heaven, if we confess and forsake all of the defects revealed to us during the process of conversion, then, and only then, do we experience the initial miracle of rebirth. We are born again dead to sin and awake to Christ and His righteousness. We are new creatures in Christ. God implants within us the mind of the new man, which comes complete with all the fruits and righteous attributes of God's character. Not one is missing.

Now, as newborn babes in Christ, we must continue to cooperate with the Holy Spirit, moment by moment, and, as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, we grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit - from glory to glory, from faith to faith. Connected to Christ, abiding in Him, we do not and cannot commit a sin according to our former defects and imperfections. To sin, we must take our eyes off Jesus, disconnect from Him, stop abiding in Him, cease walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man - and then all we can do is sin. But repentance restores the relationship our sin severed.

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

SC 33
Every act of transgression, every neglect or rejection of the grace of Christ, is reacting upon yourself; it is hardening the heart, depraving the will, benumbing the understanding, and not only making you less inclined to yield, but less capable of yielding, to the tender pleading of God's Holy Spirit. {SC 33.2}

SC 34
Christ is ready to set us free from sin, but He does not force the will; and if by persistent transgression the will itself is wholly bent on evil, and we do not desire to be set free, if we will not accept His grace, what more can He do? We have destroyed ourselves by our determined rejection of His love. "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." "Today if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts." 2 Corinthians 6:2; Hebrews 3:7, 8. {SC 34.2}

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/03/05 09:30 PM

quote:
Responsible? Accountable? Yes! God gets the credit for causing or permitting anything and everything that happens on earth to humans. He is in control, not sin, not self, not Satan.

You seem to equate "in conrol" with what is God's ideal or primary will. No one doubt that God is in control, but He has created beings with free will who have the capacity, and have exercised that capacity, to act contrary to His will. For example, it is not God's will that people experience the pain, misery and death which sin causes, yet that happens. God did not intend that Adam and Eve should eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, yet they did.

It is Satan who is the author of sin and death, not God.

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/03/05 09:35 PM

Is it a sin to view God's character in a false light, and to speak of it in a false way?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/04/05 12:42 AM

Tom, of course it wasn't God's will for mankind to sin and suffer the consequences. By the way, the wages of sin is death, instant death, not a long life of pain and suffering. The plan of salvation postponed the real wages of sin. What we experience now when we sin isn't anything like the wages of sin. God overruled the wages of sin when Jesus became the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The long, lingering death we die, which basically begins the moment we are born of the flesh, is not the wages of sin.

Since instant and immediate death (i.e., the second and eternal death) is the wages of sin, and not disease, destruction, and temporal death, what, then, is the origin and source of the terrible things that happen to us when we sin, or as we live in a sinful world? Remember, God didn’t promise Adam and Eve a long, lingering, slow, painful, temporal death when He warned them not to eat the forbidden fruit. He promised them immediate death.

In other words, God introduced a situation where, instead of an immediate eternal death, mankind now lives a slow death, full of pain and sadness and suffering, with mixed moments of joy and happiness, but eventually ending in a temporal death - and the promise of a resurrection. So, who made it all possible? Is a life of suffering part of the plan?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/04/05 12:52 AM

1BC 1082, 1083
If the race had ceased to fall when Adam was driven from Eden, we should now be in a far more elevated condition physically, mentally, and morally. But while men deplore the fall of Adam, which has resulted in such unutterable woe, they disobey the express injunctions of God, as did Adam, although they have his example to warn them from doing as he did in violating the law of Jehovah. Would that man had stopped falling with Adam. But there has been a succession of falls. Men will not take warning from Adam's experience. They will indulge appetite and passion in direct violation of the law of God, and at the same time continue to mourn Adam's transgression, which brought sin into the world. {1BC 1082.7}

From Adam's day to ours there has been a succession of falls, each greater than the last, in every species of crime. God did not create a race of beings so devoid of health, beauty, and moral power as now exists in the world. Disease of every kind has been fearfully increasing upon the race. This has not been by God's especial providence, but directly contrary to His will. It has come by man's disregard of the very means which God has ordained to shield him from the terrible evils existing (Ibid., March 4, 1875). {1BC 1082.8}

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/04/05 01:25 AM

quote:
Tom, of course it wasn't God's will for mankind to sin and suffer the consequences. By the way, the wages of sin is death, instant death, not a long life of pain and suffering. The plan of salvation postponed the real wages of sin. What we experience now when we sin isn't anything like the wages of sin. God overruled the wages of sin when Jesus became the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The long, lingering death we die, which basically begins the moment we are born of the flesh, is not the wages of sin.

I agree with most of this. The statement that the wages of sin is death, (or "sin pays its wages: death" which may better communicate the thought) is the second death, not the first. That's correct. However, there's no reason to consider it an instant death. Every account of the second death in Scripture is different than what you are suggesting. The death of Christ is the best indication of what the second death is all about, which is one of the main reasons He died (that we might see what death looked like). Christ tasted death for every man.

quote:

Since instant and immediate death (i.e., the second and eternal death) is the wages of sin, and not disease, destruction, and temporal death, what, then, is the origin and source of the terrible things that happen to us when we sin, or as we live in a sinful world? Remember, God didn’t promise Adam and Eve a long, lingering, slow, painful, temporal death when He warned them not to eat the forbidden fruit. He promised them immediate death.

To say that sin results in the second death (i.e. "the wages of sin is death") does not mean that that's all that sin causes. That's faulty logic. I can say doing exercise makes me tired, which is true, but that doesn't mean doing exercise doesn't result in anything else.

The physical death we experience, as well as all the misery we experience on this earth, is all due to sin. It comes from sentient beings choosing their own will instead of God's will. When God's will is chosen instead of one's own will, the life of Christ demonstrates what happen in this case.

Once again, I don't know why you think the second death is immediate, when every instance where it is referred to in Scripture, as well as the Spirit of Prophesy, declares otherwise. And above all, the death of Christ shows this isn't true.

quote:

In other words, God introduced a situation where, instead of an immediate eternal death, mankind now lives a slow death, full of pain and sadness and suffering, with mixed moments of joy and happiness, but eventually ending in a temporal death - and the promise of a resurrection. So, who made it all possible? Is a life of suffering part of the plan?

God didn't introduce this situation, Satan did! Important distinction! Satan is the author of sin and death.

What made it possible was free will, which means it's possible to choose a different way than God's way. Choosing God's way would have never led to pain or suffering.

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/04/05 01:26 AM

Is it a sin to view God's character in a false light, and to speak of it in a false way?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/04/05 02:25 AM

Tom, the length of time a sinner remains in the lake of fire is proportionate to their accumulated sinfulness. Some will expire sooner than others. Satan will die last. If Adam and Eve had received the wages of their sin, the instant they sinned, they would have expired rapidly, almost instantly.

The reason they did not die immediately is because Jesus paid their sin debt in full. “Christ, in counsel with His Father, instituted the system of sacrificial offerings; that death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to a victim which should prefigure the great and perfect offering of the son of God.” (1BC 1104)

The reason Jesus suffered so long on the cross, instead of dying immediately, is because He was receiving the wages of sin for all the sins of the world. His situation was totally different than if Adam and Eve had died the instant they sinned. They would have died for one sin, not all the sins of the world. It doesn’t take as long to die for one sin.

Because God did not allow Adam and Eve to receive the wages of their sin, the second they sinned, He introduced a situation where sinners would live a long, lingering death, full of pain and suffering. It wasn’t the result of mankind’s choice. Man chose death. It was Jesus who initiated the plan of salvation. Mankind didn’t ask God for probation, for a second chance. God just did it.

The results of God’s choice to initiate the plan of salvation are many, all of them good. All the sorrow, sadness, and suffering that Adam and Eve experienced, as a result of their probation, was made possible when God chose not to end their existence, the moment they sinned, as originally promised. God is both directly and indirectly responsible for all the suffering that occurs on earth, including the death of His only begotten Son. But it is a choice God made, because God is love, and He is not willing that any should perish.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/04/05 02:27 AM

No!

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/04/05 02:30 AM

God has, and will, use evil angels to do His bidding. He has, and will, use the elements of nature to do His "strange work".

Psalm
78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels [among them].

Ezekiel
21:31 And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, [and] skilful to destroy.
21:32 Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no [more] remembered: for I the LORD have spoken [it].

Isaiah
30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall show the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of [his] anger, and [with] the flame of a devouring fire, [with] scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/04/05 07:07 AM

quote:
No!

You mean no, it's not a sin to see God's character in a false light and speak of it that way?

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/04/05 07:13 AM

quote:
The reason Jesus suffered so long on the cross, instead of dying immediately, is because He was receiving the wages of sin for all the sins of the world.

Jesus died so quickly, those watching were astonished. If if were a matter of comensurate suffering in terms of some sort of amount, Christ would still be on the cross, as their are billions of people for whom Christ died. Figure some amount of minutes for each one the lake of fire, and you have millions of years; hence by the line of reasoning you are suggesting, Christ would still be there. In fact, He should still be dead, accoding to your way of thinking, because the law requires eternal death -- that is, ceasing to exist. So Christ would have to cease to exist to "pay" the wages for everyone's sin, if it were a "tit for tat" matter.

It's not the quantity, or amount, of Christ's suffering that's important, but the quality. That's why He died in such a short amount of time, and why that death "satisfies the just requirements of the law."

Posted By: Ikan

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/04/05 11:26 AM

Yeppers, Tom: you're so right! Christ died so rapidly that the Romans and Jewish rabbis were stunned. They had seen many crucifictions, and it normally took 24 hours or more, even after ones' supporting legs were smashed.

But on a muscular, healthy carpenter/walker/outdoorsman like Jesus, they expected a long and cruel showy struggle....not mere hours.

They took "insurance" and unwittingly fulfilled prophecy :

"The consent of the governor (Pilate) having been obtained, the legs of the two that were crucified with Jesus were broken to hasten their death; but Jesus was already dead, and they broke not his legs...A soldier, at the suggestion of the priests who wished to make the death of Jesus sure, thrust his spear into the Saviour's side, inflicting a wound which would have caused instant death if he had not already been dead"{3SP 171.3}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/04/05 05:14 PM

quote:
You mean no, it's not a sin to see God's character in a false light and speak of it that way?

God winks at ignorance, but if a person knows the difference then they are guilty if they refuse the truth.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/05/05 06:08 AM

Yes, Jesus died soon, by Roman crucifixion standards, but He bore the sins of the world from birth. And, during His wilderness experience His suffering was not unlike Gethsemane. We cannot calculate Jesus' experience with our sin based on the moment they nailed Him to the cross. He started drinking the cup way before He finished it on the cross.

You forgot to comment on the other things I posted above, namely, immediate death is what God promised Adam And Eve, and the plan of salvation created a situation where we suffer a long slow death. What about it?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/04/05 10:02 PM

We all know that the theory, Once saved, always saved, is false. Well, so is, Once converted, always converted. Yes, there is a defining moment in time when we initially experience the miracle of rebirth. However, Sister White observed that it is rare among professing believers. Many, so many have not crucified self.

We are fit to enter the gates of heaven the moment we are born again. But no one will enter heaven with unconfessed, unforsaken, or so-called unknown, defective traits of character. Jesus will not change our character traits when He returns. People who retain all, or even one, defective trait of character are not fit for heaven. One cherished defect is enough to neutralize the entire gospel.

Even though we are born again without our former defective traits of character we must be converted anew every day. Paul said, I die daily, which does not mean, I sin daily. If we do not choose afresh to maintain our initial conversion, on a moment by moment basis, we are not fit for heaven. We must choose to stay converted, and we must make this choice every day, moment by moment.

Just because we were converted yesterday it doesn’t mean we are converted today. In order for yesterday’s conversion to count for today we must choose to be born again afresh, today. People who cannot seem to maintain the character of Christ, who seem to sin and repent, sin and repent, have not experienced true and genuine conversion. Self did not die.

UL 22
The uncertain experience of many professed Christians--sinning and repenting and continuing in the same dwarfed spiritual condition--is the result of worldliness and unholiness of life. The saving grace of Christ is designed for everyday life. Christ came not to save man in his sins, but from his sins. The principles of truth, abiding in the heart, will sanctify the life.--Manuscript 35, Jan. 8, 1893, "Publishing Work." {UL 22.6}

OHC 215
Genuine conversion is needed, not once in years, but daily. This conversion brings man into a new relation with God. Old things, his natural passions and hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong, pass away, and he is renewed and sanctified. But this work must be continual; for as long as Satan exists, he will make an effort to carry on his work. He who strives to serve God will encounter a strong undercurrent of wrong. His heart needs to be barricaded by constant watchfulness and prayer, or else the embankment will give way; and like a millstream, the undercurrent of wrong will sweep away the safeguard. No renewed heart can be kept in a condition of sweetness without the daily application of the salt of the Word. Divine grace must be received daily, or no man will stay converted. {OHC 215.2}

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/05/05 12:01 AM

Hi Ikan!

Mike: You mean no, it's not a sin to see God's character in a false light and speak of it that way?

God winks at ignorance, but if a person knows the difference then they are guilty if they refuse the truth.

Tom: But it's still using God's name in vain, and bearing false witness, as well as leading others astray. It hardly seems right to assert that one who is falsely representing God has no defects of character.

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/05/05 12:04 AM

Mike: Yes, Jesus died soon, by Roman crucifixion standards, but He bore the sins of the world from birth. And, during His wilderness experience His suffering was not unlike Gethsemane. We cannot calculate Jesus' experience with our sin based on the moment they nailed Him to the cross. He started drinking the cup way before He finished it on the cross.

Tom: It still leaves you millions of years short.

Mike: You forgot to comment on the other things I posted above, namely, immediate death is what God promised Adam And Eve, and the plan of salvation created a situation where we suffer a long slow death. What about it?

Tom: I did comment on this. You seem to have some specific point in mind, which I may not have commented on. What is it?

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/05/05 12:10 AM

quote:
We are fit to enter the gates of heaven the moment we are born again. But no one will enter heaven with unconfessed, unforsaken, or so-called unknown, defective traits of character.

What is a "so-called unkown, defective trait of character?"

You stated in a previous post that God winks at sins of ignorance. I think what causes the difficulty, at least a large portion of it, is the (what appears to me) to be an artificial definition of defect of character.

To you, I think that means the same thing as known sin. So by saying that a person who is born again has no defects of character, you mean he is not willfully contuing in sin. If so, this is a position which is much easier to support from inspiration than the one you assert, which means something different to everyone who reads it, it appears to me.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/05/05 07:57 AM

Do the following insights apply to the thief on the cross?

HP 160
Every soul that gains eternal life must be like Christ, "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners" (Heb. 7:26). {HP 160.5}

MAR 53
God will accept nothing but purity and holiness; one spot, one wrinkle, one defect in the character, will forever debar them from heaven, with all its glories and treasures. {Mar 53.2}

HP 201
So perfect is the character represented which men must have in order to be Christ's disciples that the infidel has said that it is not possible for any human being to attain unto it. But no less a standard must be presented by all who claim to be children of God. Infidels know not that celestial aid is provided for all who seek for it by faith. Every provision has been made in behalf of every soul who shall seek to be a partaker of the divine nature and be complete in Jesus Christ. Every defect is to be discerned and cut away from the character with an unsparing decision. {HP 201.2}

LHU 346
A well-balanced character is formed by single acts well performed. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. He who enters heaven must have a character that is without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. Naught that defileth can ever enter there. In all the redeemed host not one defect will be seen. {LHU 346.4}

Posted By: Ikan

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/05/05 04:38 PM

Let's be realistic:

That thief had the painful recognition of what he had been and Whom he was nailed next to.

The thief knew he was a gasp away from forever. Do you?
He had no fight for this world left in him. Do you?
He knew God was nailed right next to him. Do you?
The thief had no reputation to protect! Do you?
No self-centeredness, no excuses for his defects,cultural and natural weaknesses to gloss over or pretend to free of. Do you?

You and I have revival and reformation time left on our life cards; he did not. You are far more culpable for the light you have than he had.

His "death-bed salvation" is a rarity, an anomaly surely recorded in the Word for many other reasons other than the Church Fathers theory of instantly imparted perfection. He got the imputed gift: no time for the imparted. But we have more time to gain both, if we "hunger and thirst".

What other reasons was the thief remembered in Scripture for our benefit, then?

Simply look at the thief's request: it concerned when, what and where of the dying King's kingdom.

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/06/05 06:11 AM

Good point. How does the teaching about imputed and imparted righteousness fit into this subject of character defects?

Righteousness within is testified to by righteousness without. He who is righteous within is not hard-hearted and unsympathetic, but day by day he grows into the image of Christ, going on from strength to strength. He who is being sanctified by the truth will be self-controlled, and will follow in the footsteps of Christ until grace is lost in glory. The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven.--Review and Herald, June 4, 1895. {MYP 35.2}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/05/05 07:07 PM

Tom, here are points you didn’t comment on:

Psalm
78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels [among them].

1BC 1104
Christ, in counsel with His Father, instituted the system of sacrificial offerings; that death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to a victim which should prefigure the great and perfect offering of the son of God. (1BC 1104)

UL 22
The uncertain experience of many professed Christians--sinning and repenting and continuing in the same dwarfed spiritual condition--is the result of worldliness and unholiness of life. The saving grace of Christ is designed for everyday life. Christ came not to save man in his sins, but from his sins. The principles of truth, abiding in the heart, will sanctify the life.--Manuscript 35, Jan. 8, 1893, "Publishing Work." {UL 22.6}

OHC 215
Genuine conversion is needed, not once in years, but daily. This conversion brings man into a new relation with God. Old things, his natural passions and hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong, pass away, and he is renewed and sanctified. But this work must be continual; for as long as Satan exists, he will make an effort to carry on his work. He who strives to serve God will encounter a strong undercurrent of wrong. His heart needs to be barricaded by constant watchfulness and prayer, or else the embankment will give way; and like a millstream, the undercurrent of wrong will sweep away the safeguard. No renewed heart can be kept in a condition of sweetness without the daily application of the salt of the Word. Divine grace must be received daily, or no man will stay converted. {OHC 215.2}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/05/05 07:12 PM

quote:
So by saying that a person who is born again has no defects of character, you mean he is not willfully contuing in sin. If so, this is a position which is much easier to support from inspiration than the one you assert, which means something different to everyone who reads it, it appears to me.

Tom, what is your definition of a defective trait of character?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/05/05 07:27 PM

Ikan, I like how you described the miraculous nature of the thief's conversion. He embarked upon the process of conversion, of course, when he first encountered Jesus. His conscience was pricked, but he denied the testimony of the Spirit and stepped up his perilous path fighting against the hated Romans, and fighting against his pricking conscience. But all the while he was being drawn to Jesus.

DA 749, 750
To Jesus in His agony on the cross there came one gleam of comfort. It was the prayer of the penitent thief. Both the men who were crucified with Jesus had at first railed upon Him; and one under his suffering only became more desperate and defiant. But not so with his companion. This man was not a hardened criminal; he had been led astray by evil associations, but he was less guilty than many of those who stood beside the cross reviling the Saviour. He had seen and heard Jesus, and had been convicted by His teaching, but he had been turned away from Him by the priests and rulers. Seeking to stifle conviction, he had plunged deeper and deeper into sin, until he was arrested, tried as a criminal, and condemned to die on the cross. In the judgment hall and on the way to Calvary he had been in company with Jesus. He had heard Pilate declare, "I find no fault in Him." John 19:4. He had marked His godlike bearing, and His pitying forgiveness of His tormentors. On the cross he sees the many great religionists shoot out the tongue with scorn, and ridicule the Lord Jesus. He sees the wagging heads. He hears the upbraiding speeches taken up by his companion in guilt: "If Thou be Christ, save Thyself and us." Among the passers-by he hears many defending Jesus. He hears them repeat His words, and tell of His works. The conviction comes back to him that this is the Christ. Turning to his fellow criminal he says, "Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?" The dying thieves have no longer anything to fear from man. But upon one of them presses the conviction that there is a God to fear, a future to cause him to tremble. And now, all sin-polluted as it is, his life history is about to close. "And we indeed justly," he moans; "for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this Man hath done nothing amiss." {DA 749.3}

There is no question now. There are no doubts, no reproaches. When condemned for his crime, the thief had become hopeless and despairing; but strange, tender thoughts now spring up. He calls to mind all he has heard of Jesus, how He has healed the sick and pardoned sin. He has heard the words of those who believed in Jesus and followed Him weeping. He has seen and read the title above the Saviour's head. He has heard the passers-by repeat it, some with grieved, quivering lips, others with jesting and mockery. The Holy Spirit illuminates his mind, and little by little the chain of evidence is joined together. In Jesus, bruised, mocked, and hanging upon the cross, he sees the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. Hope is mingled with anguish in his voice as the helpless, dying soul casts himself upon a dying Saviour. "Lord, remember me," he cries, "when Thou comest into Thy kingdom." {DA 750.1}

Quickly the answer came. Soft and melodious the tone, full of love, compassion, and power the words: Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with Me in paradise. {DA 750.2}

The thief experienced the process of conversion just like Jesus described it to Nicodemus:

DA 172
The wind is heard among the branches of the trees, rustling the leaves and flowers; yet it is invisible, and no man knows whence it comes or whither it goes. So with the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart. It can no more be explained than can the movements of the wind. A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/05/05 07:44 PM

quote:
How does the teaching about imputed and imparted righteousness fit into this subject of character defects?

"The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven."

Here's how Sister White further defines the relationship between the two:

“No one can believe with the heart unto righteousness, and obtain justification by faith, while continuing the practice of those things which the Word of God forbids, or while neglecting any known duty.” (1 SM 396)

“Justification means that the conscience, purged from dead works, is placed where it can receive the blessings of sanctification.” (7 BC 908)

“God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul.” (FW 100)

We are not justified until we confess and forsake our defective traits of character, which are revealed, in the context of the cross, during the process of conversion. The thief on the cross, a case in point, completed the process of conversion on the cross, however, as Ikan pointed out, he didn't have time or opportunity to nurture the righteous traits of character God implanted within him. But, people are saved based on their "title" to heaven, not their "fitness" for heaven.

Newborn babes and fully developed, well seasoned soldiers of the cross, are saved based on the same thing, namely, their "title" to heaven. Other than maturation there is no difference between newborn babes and seasoned soldiers. Both start off the same way - without their former defective traits of charcter. Jesus will not change or remove even one defective trait of character when He returns, which is why we are born again without them (i.e., in case we die the moment we are born again, like the thief on the cross).

Posted By: Tom

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/06/05 08:12 AM

I think of a defective character as a character which has defects. For example, if one view God's character in a false light and presented it that way, that would be a defect of character. One can have defects in one character without being aware of it.

A defect is an imperfection or blemish. Character has to do with one's feelings, thoughts, words and actions. So if one habitually speaks, thinks and acts imperfectly, that's a defect of character.

Regarding the other point or points you wanted me to respond to, I don't know what they are.

Posted By: Ikan

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. - 05/06/05 12:06 PM

The ministers are not to carry into their sacred office their own defective spirits and faulty characters; for in all things they are to fulfill the word, and be found approving themselves "as the ministers of God." {RH, November 20, 1894 par. 2}