Did the Sabbath exist before creation?

From the SS discussion yesterday, the question came up regarding the Sabbath's pre-existence. Some think that it has always been kept, even before the creation of the world, others think it started at creation.

I would appreciate any light you are able to shed on this.

Since the Law of God is a transcript of the character of God then it would have been there

A. What do you mean by saying that the law is a transcript of God's character? In what sense and what way? Also, please provide a Scripture reference to support that statement.

B. If the law is a transcript of God's character, and therefore always existed, even before creation, why would God make laws that don't apply to anyone. What I mean by that is why would angels need the commandments that say "Honor your father and mother" and "Do not commit adultery" since they do not marry/reproduce, and have no parents?

Psalms 19:7
(7) The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Matthew 5:48
(48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Psalms 119:86
(86) All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me.
Deuteronomy 7:9
(9) Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Proverbs 6:23
(23) For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
1 John 1:5
(5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Since the Law is a transcript of the character of God then we need to ask the question, what does this teach me about the character of God?

Keeping the Law is about being like Christ.

JAK's question regarding the laws of adultery and of honoring parents seems to have been left unanswered.

God does not change. We know that. But that does not mean that the law never changes. Yes, the law is a transcript of God's character. But it is never God's FULL character.

To compare to something that is always occurring in our own bodies, let's look at DNA. Our DNA is, genetically, who we are. The nucleus of the cell is the largest organelle or part of the cell, and it contains the DNA. The nucleus is setup as a sort of copy room in which portions of the DNA are copied by messenger RNA and transported outside of the nucleus to the ribosomes or endoplasmic reticulum to make such proteins and enzymes as the cell requires.

If we were to liken the DNA to God's character, the mRNA would represent His laws. However, the RNA never contains the full transcript of the DNA. It only contains a portion of it. Furthermore, not all portions of the DNA are ever copied by the cell. The only portions copied are the only portions which are needed. Unneeded genes on the DNA are left in the archives, untouched.

That is how I think we might look at God's law with respect to His character. His character has far more depth to it than all of the laws we could collect would indicate. And those laws, just as with the DNA, will not be exposed unless they are needed.

On other planets, God has beings that love and serve Him. It is my understanding that they do not have the ability to procreate which God has given humans. Therefore, it would be my belief that the law prohibiting adultery would have only become known in our world, after our creation. The law would not have been needed before that, and would have been bound up in the "archives," so-to-speak, where none of God's creatures had exposure to it.

Does that mean the law did not exist? Perhaps. But it depends on how one looks at it. There's no need for a law to exist which has no application. Beings that cannot procreate as we do would have had no need to be told not to commit adultery. It would be like God giving us a law of speed limits for our wings. What wings? It would have been useless. And God is not in the habit of creating useless things--or laws.

As for the Sabbath, Mrs. White speaks to that.



So it appears the Sabbath was a law that came at our Creation, just as the law of marriage did. It did not previously "exist," just as a gene which was not previously expressed but can be later "turned on."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

As the scripture says Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath, so it was not there and then man created so he could rest and worship. It was made after and given to man....

That the law of God existed before the creation of man is clear, since angels sinned, and "where there is no law there is no transgression" (Rom. 4:15). The law of God existed in the two great principles of supreme love to God and love to one's neighbor.
After the inception of sin the law had to be adapted to fallen intellects, and "supreme love to God" and "love to one's neighbor" had to be unfolded into more specific commandments.
As to the Bible/EGW quotes which imply that the Sabbath comes from creation, the reference seems to be to our planet, so they cannot be taken to mean conclusively that the Sabbath didn't exist before that.

Deuteronomy 7:7-9. The faithful God
Isaiah 42:1-5, 8 Behold my servant, my glory will I not give to another
Isaiah 49:6-7 The Lord is faithful
Ephesians 5:25-33 Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church
Romans 5:8. While we were sinners, Christ died for us.

And God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it.
The Sabbath was made for man, amd not man for the Sabbath.
Two scriptures that should clear that up.

GREEN COCHOA said, "On other planets, God has beings that love and serve Him. It is my understanding that they do not have the ability to procreate which God has given humans. Therefore, it would be my belief that the law prohibiting adultery would have only become known in our world, after our creation."

Then you quoted Ellen White referring to the creation of earth as writing, "Then marriage and the Sabbath had their origin, twin institutions for the glory of God in the benefit of humanity. ..." {AH 340.4}

So logically, your conclusion makes sense. We know Jesus stated the angels do not marry nor are they given in marriage according to Matt 22:30 and Mark 12:25 and that such no longer will apply to resurrected humans according to these same verses.

You have also couched your statement that other worlds (not angels) also do not procreate with the caution that this is your own unsupported understanding. Procreation may have been unique to this planet, but apparently this will not be the case in the future; at least not perhaps until the New Earth, which will be restored to the state of Eden renewed (AH 539.1) and in which “Then they that have kept God’s commandments shall breathe in immortal vigor beneath the tree of life; and through unending ages the inhabitants of sinless worlds shall behold, in that garden of delight, a sample of the perfect work of God’s creation, untouched by the curse of sin—a sample of what the whole earth would have become, had man but fulfilled the Creator’s glorious plan” PP 62.3.

While this does not specifically state the restoration of procreation, it could be implied by a return to the original plan. What are your thoughts on that?

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PETER L you cited Deut 7:7-9; Isa 42:1-5, 8; 49:6-7; Eph 5:25-33; and Rom 5:8 but did not link these to a question or set of questions to which they were designed to respond. I do not see their connection to the topic at hand. Could you please elaborate?

Did the Sabbath also exist on other inhabited unfallen worlds before it was instituted on an inhabited and once unfallen Earth?

My thoughts are that the "original plan" referred to comprises a plan which excludes sin. A perfect world again.

I do not believe everything will be "original." For that to be the case, the wings we acquired would then be removed. A second transformation would have to take place to give us back our genders.

What if there were more women in heaven than men--or vice versa? Who gets to stay single for eternity, in contradiction to Isaiah 35? Or else, who gets to be a polygamist? Or, worse yet, who became trans-gendered?

No. There is one basic reason there will no longer be marriage in heaven, and procreation is it. God cannot risk again having free-moral agents who are newly created and who never experienced sin. All of the universe today has experienced sin and its woeful effects. All of the watching universe, and every saint who is saved will be amply inoculated against sin. None of us would even think of returning to this vomit. But a new baby, born in a perfect world and given the freedom of choice, not having been thus inoculated, would represent an opportunity for sin to happen again. Without experimenting with it firsthand, there would be no way for such a one to understand. Explanations, you may recall, did not bring Lucifer back from the brink.

Besides, the Bible is quite clear on the matter, and Mrs. White emphasizes this in saying:


We should count it a privilege to have been the one and only planet in which free moral agents were ever gifted with the ability to procreate. It won't happen again.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Not if Ellen White is to be believed.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I agree that there won't be births in the New Earth as a result of new marriages, but what do you say about women who will be saved and died pregnant? And what about the many babies that will be saved? Won't they know about redemption through explanations?

How did you come to this conclusion? The human race would procreate until the planet was filled with inhabitants, then procreation would cease. Why couldn't the same have happened in other planets?

There will be small children in Heaven. But not the New Earth. In Heaven, we will be going over the books of record, witnessing the entire history of earth, learning why certain friends, relatives, or loved ones are not there, and...there will be tears. The children will grow up in an environment in which everyone is talking about the history of sin on our planet. They will be well exposed to what sin is--and consequently, inoculated against it just as the adults are.

But, after the fires of hell have cleansed this earth at the end of the millennium, God will wipe away all tears. We will never again dwell on the painful experiences of sin. There will be no more opportunity to inoculate new free moral agents against sin.

And, of course, by this time, the small children have grown up. We have been as angels already in Heaven. There are no wee ones entering the New Earth.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Start a new thread.

All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two: love God, love man. (Matthew 22:37-40) Love fulfills the law. (Romans 13:8, 10, Galatians 5:14, James 2:8)

The law's requirements are pretty simple: love. If we are always loving, then we will fulfill the law.

But we are also told that God is love. (1 John 4:8) Note that it doesn't say that God "commits" love, or God "fulfills" love. God is not merely loving; God "is" love. God is the very definition of love.

Then He gave us a law that simply answers the question, "What would Jesus do?" The 10C is a sinner-centric explanation of what God is like, and what His children are like.


The principles of the law have existed as long as God existed. However, their application differs in each situation. The law as given at Sinai was designed for fallen man. Unfallen beings still abide by the same principles, but the application may be different.

Angels do not have spouses as we have them, but it is possible that they have relations that require a similar form of faithfulness to each other.

Getting back to the Sabbath, it is reasonable to believe that all creatures need periodic rest and a time set aside for worship.

We were just studying this....

Isaiah 65
New Heavens and a New Earth
17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 “Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the LORD.

Yes, and that they needed it before man was created.

There's another thread for this topic that you can find HERE.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I still have a problem trying to understand the answer to the question. "Did the sabbath exist before creation?" Biblically, no. Unless Mark 2:27, 28 is wrong.

The Bible speaks to us and about us, earth inhabitants; it doesn't speak about heavenly inhabitants being subject to God's law, like us.

According to both the Bible and Ellen White, the Sabbath was created during Creation Week. It belongs to our planet. There is no indication ever given that other planets have anything similar. It is possible, of course, but it seems unlikely that it would be the same time.

An analogy that perhaps falls short of the mark would be our independence or national days. Every country has a different one. It would make little sense for folk in England to celebrate September 21, just because it's Belize's day, or July 4, which is America's day. Likewise, we all have different birthdays. The Sabbath is essentially the "birthday" of our world. That is one reason it should never be changed to Sunday. Would you accept your birthday being changed because someone said it should be a different day?

Again, if Ellen White and the Bible are to be believed, the Sabbath did not exist before our Creation Week.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, that's sure an interesting thought. But you don't believe God set the day in motion to coincide with the Sabbath of all the other worlds?

What is the purpose of our Sabbath to the other worlds?

All heaven is keeping the Sabbath, but not in a listless, do-nothing way. {6T 362.1}

The Sabbath commandment is placed in the midst of the Decalogue, and it was instituted in Eden at the same time that God instituted the marriage relation. God gave the Sabbath as a memorial of his creative power and works, "for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it." He made its observance obligatory upon man, in order that he might contemplate the works of God, dwell upon his goodness, his mercy, and love, and through nature look up to nature's God. {ST, February 13, 1896 par. 7}

"The importance of the Sabbath as the memorial of creation is that it keeps ever present the true reason why worship is due to God"--because He is the Creator, and we are His creatures. "The Sabbath therefore lies at the very foundation of divine worship, for it teaches this great truth in the most impressive manner, and no other institution does this. The true ground of divine worship, not of that on the seventh day merely, but of all worship, is found in the distinction between the Creator and His creatures. This great fact can never become obsolete, and must never be forgotten."--J. N. Andrews, History of the Sabbath, chapter 27. It was to keep this truth ever before the minds of men, that God instituted the Sabbath in Eden; and so long as the fact that He is our Creator continues to be a reason why we should worship Him, so long the Sabbath will continue as its sign and memorial. {GC 437.2}

We are told that all heaven is keeping the Sabbath. And if we look at the reasons why the Sabbath command exists in the first place, it is not a stretch to see that all of God's creatures would benefit from it. They might not have it the same way, but "a memorial of his creative power and works" would do them good.

While it seems a nice theory that the Sabbath exists on other worlds, or existed for aeons before creation, there is absolutely no evidence to support it. In fact, both Scripture and EGW explicitly state that it began at the creation of this world.

How then do you explain that we will be stopping to spend the Sabbath on one of those unfallen worlds on our way to the New Jerusalem in Heaven?

First of all, let's consider a few facts:

1) Planetary motions differ for every known planet--no two are alike that we know of

2) Orbit times also differ

3) Our Sabbath depends on a 24 hour rotation of the earth

4) On other planets, the rotation may be 12, 48, or any other number of hours for one rotation

Now, let's look at the above and make an observation. Suppose we say that every time we reach the 144th hour, we have a Sabbath for the next 24. That is the way it is on our planet. Now, let's go to another planet where the day is 36 hours long instead of 24. Do we make it still the same formula? Of course, if we did that, the "sabbath" would be only 2/3 of a day, and it would immediately follow 4 full days. So each week would then be 4.66666 days long. Not quite seven, eh?

On the other hand, we could say the "sabbath" on each and every planet is always their seventh day. Now we have some planets on a different schedule, like the one with a 36-hour day, which would start sabbath after 216 hours and have it for the next 36 hours. Nice long sabbaths, compared to ours, but very quickly their "sabbath" would be out of sync with ours.

In other words, for "THE SABBATH" to apply to each and every planet equally, you imply that every single inhabited planet enjoys a 24-hour day, just like we do. There's no other way, as I see it.

I don't see our Sabbath having a direct purpose for other worlds. I think, however, that when the earth is made new again, God may institute a universal commemoration of it--tied only to the times of our planet--a sabbath especially for humans, with other planets being invited guests to join in the glad occasion with us.

We know for sure that we will keep Sabbath for eternity. I'm not familiar with any inspired passage telling us that other worlds will be required to join us. I'm sure they would be invited to do so.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

How many planets do we know of? Do we know of any populated planets, the planets that are the "other worlds"?

God created our orbit. He created theirs.

God created our rotation. He created theirs.

Maybe, maybe not. What information do you have regarding that?

Consider Asygo's post.

Two more quotes to be considered:

I was shown that the law of God would stand fast forever, and exist in the new earth to all eternity. At the creation, when the foundations of the earth were laid, the sons of God looked with admiration upon the work of the Creator, and all the heavenly host shouted for joy. It was then that the foundation of the Sabbath was laid. At the close of the six days of creation, God rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made; and He blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because that in it He had rested from all His work. The Sabbath was instituted in Eden before the fall, and was observed by Adam and Eve, and all the heavenly host. God rested on the seventh day, and blessed and hallowed it. I saw that the Sabbath never will be done away; but that the redeemed saints, and all the angelic host, will observe it in honor of the great Creator to all eternity. {EW 217.2}

The Sabbath was not for Israel merely, but for the world. It had been made known to man in Eden, and, like the other precepts of the Decalogue, it is of imperishable obligation. {FLB 37.4}