Hidden Character Defects! What?

Ikan, here is the context of Sister White's counsel to Brother G., who is someone God called to the ministry and a leadership position at the head of the work:

4T 83-94
Dear Brother G: I feel very anxious that you should accept light and come out of darkness. You have been greatly tempted of Satan; he has used you as his instrument to hinder the work of God. He has thus far succeeded with you; but it does not follow that you should continue in the path of error. I look upon your case with great trembling. I know that God has given you great light. In your sickness last fall the providence of God was dealing with you that you might bear fruit to His glory. {4T 83.2}

Unbelief was taking possession of your soul, and the Lord afflicted you that you might gain a needed experience. He blessed us in praying for you, and He blessed you in answer to our prayers. The Lord designed to unite our hearts in love and confidence. The Holy Spirit witnessed with your spirit. The power of God in answer to prayer came upon you; but Satan came with temptations, and you did not close the door upon him. He entered and has been very busy. It is the plan of the evil one to work first upon the mind of one, and then, through him, upon others. He has thus sought to hedge up our way and hinder our labors in the very place where our influence should be most felt for the prosperity of the cause. {4T 83.3}

The Lord brought you into connection with His work at ----- for a wise purpose; He designed that you should discover the defects in your character and overcome them. You know how quickly your spirit chafes when things do not move according to your mind. Would that you could understand that all this impatience and irritability must be overcome, or your life will prove an utter failure, you will lose heaven, and it would have been better had you never been born. {4T 84.1}

…

Our heavenly Father sees the hearts of men, and He knows their characters better than they themselves know them. He sees that some have susceptibilities and powers, which, directed in the right channel, might be used to His glory to aid in the advancement of His work. He puts these persons on trial and in His wise providence brings them into different positions and under a variety of circumstances, testing them that they may reveal what is in their hearts and the weak points in their characters which have been concealed from their own knowledge. He gives them opportunities to correct these weaknesses, to polish off the rough corners of their natures, and to fit themselves for His service, that when He calls them to action they will be ready, and that angels of heaven may unite their labor with human effort in the work that must be done upon the earth. To men whom God designs shall fill responsible positions, He in mercy reveals their hidden defects, that they may look within and examine critically the complicated emotions and exercises of their own hearts, and detect that which is wrong; thus they may modify their dispositions and refine their manners. The Lord in His providence brings men where He can test their moral powers and reveal their motives of action, that they may improve what is right in themselves and put away that which is wrong. God would have His servants become acquainted with the moral machinery of their own hearts. In order to bring this about, He often permits the fire of affliction to assail them that they may become purified… {4T 84.4}

…

God's work of refining and purifying must go on until His servants are so humbled, so dead to self, that, when called into active service, their eye will be single to His glory. He will then accept their efforts; they will not move rashly, from impulse; they will not rush on and imperil the Lord's cause, being slaves to temptations and passions and followers of their own carnal minds set on fire by Satan. Oh, how fearfully is the cause of God marred by man's perverse will and unsubdued temper! How much suffering he brings upon himself by following his own headstrong passions! God brings men over the ground again and again, increasing the pressure until perfect humility and a transformation of character bring them into harmony with Christ and the spirit of heaven, and they are victors over themselves. {4T 86.2}

God has called men from different states, and has been testing and proving them to see what characters they would develop, to see if they could be trusted to keep the fort at -----, and to see whether or not they would supply the deficiencies of the men already there, and, seeing the failures that these men have made, would shun the example of those who are not fit to engage in the most sacred work of God. He has followed men at ----- with continual warnings, reproof, and counsel. He has poured great light about those who officiate in His cause there, that the way may be plain before them. But if they prefer to follow after their own wisdom, scorning the light, as did Saul, they will surely go astray and involve the cause in perplexity. Light and darkness have been set before them, but they have too often chosen the darkness. {4T 86.3}

The Laodicean message applies to the people of God who profess to believe present truth. The greater part are lukewarm professors, having a name but no zeal. God signified that He wanted men at the great heart of the work to correct the state of things existing there and to stand like faithful sentinels at their post of duty. He has given them light at every point, to instruct, encourage, and confirm them, as the case required. But notwithstanding all this, those who should be faithful and true, fervent in Christian zeal, of gracious temper, knowing and loving Jesus earnestly, are found aiding the enemy to weaken and discourage those whom God is using to build up the work. The term "lukewarm" is applicable to this class. They profess to love the truth, yet are deficient in Christian fervor and devotion. They dare not give up wholly and run the risk of the unbeliever, yet they are unwilling to die to self and follow out closely the principles of their faith. {4T 87.1}

…

I was pointed to the providence of God among His people and was shown that every trial made by the refining, purifying process upon professed Christians proves some to be dross. The fine gold does not always appear. In every religious crisis some fall under temptation. The shaking of God blows away multitudes like dry leaves. Prosperity multiplies a mass of professors. Adversity purges them out of the church. As a class, their spirits are not steadfast with God. They go out from us because they are not of us; for when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, many are offended. {4T 89.2}

Let these look back a few months to the time when they were sitting on the cases of others who were in a condition similar to that which they now occupy. Let them carefully call to mind the exercise of their minds in regard to those tempted ones. Had anyone told them then that notwithstanding their zeal and labor to set others right, they would at length be found in a similar position of darkness, they would have said, as did Hazael to the prophet: "Is thy servant a dog, that he should do this great thing?" {4T 89.3}

Self-deception is upon them. During the calm, what firmness they manifest! what courageous sailors they make! But when the furious tempests of trial and temptation come, lo! their souls are shipwrecked. Men may have excellent gifts, good ability, splendid qualifications; but one defect, one secret sin indulged, will prove to the character what the worm-eaten plank does to the ship--utter disaster and ruin! {4T 90.1}

Dear brother, God in His providence brought you from your farm to ----- to bear the tests and trials which you could not have where you were. He has given you some testimonies of reproof, which you professedly accepted; but your spirit was continually chafed under rebuke. You are like those who walked no more with Jesus after He brought close, practical truths to bear upon them. You have not taken hold in faith to correct the defects marked out in your character. You have not humbled your proud spirit before God. You have stood at warfare against the Spirit of God as revealed in reproof. Your carnal, unsubdued heart is not subject to control. You have not disciplined yourself. Time and again your uncontrolled temper, your spirit of insubordination, has gained complete mastery over you. How can such an impulsive, unsubdued soul live among the pure angels? It cannot be admitted into heaven, as you yourself know. If so, you cannot begin too soon to correct the evil in your nature. Be converted, and become as a little child. {4T 90.2}

…

God calls upon you, Brother G, to repent and be converted, and become as a little child. Unless the truth has a sanctifying influence upon your life to mold your character, you will fail of an inheritance in the kingdom of God. The Lord in His providence selected you to be more directly connected with His cause and work. He took you, like an undisciplined soldier, new to the army, and brought you under rules, regulations, and responsibilities, and through the drilling process. At first you did nobly and tried to be faithful at your post. You bore trial better than ever before in your life. But Satan came with his specious temptations, and you fell a prey to them. The Lord pitied you and laid His hand upon you to save you. He gave you a rich experience, which you have not profited by as you should have done. Like the children of Israel, you soon forgot the dealings of God and His great mercies. Brother G, you were raised up in answer to prayer, and God gave you a new lease of life; but you have let jealousy and envy into your soul, and have greatly displeased Him. He designed to bring you where you would develop character, where you would see and correct your defects. {4T 91.2}

…

Brother G, you are willing to stand at the head and dictate to others, but you will not be dictated to yourself. Your pride fires in a moment at the attempt. Self-love and a haughty spirit are unruly elements in your character, hindering spiritual advancement. Those who have this temperament must take hold of the work zealously and die to self, or they will lose heaven. God makes no compromise with this element, as do fond, mistaken parents. {4T 92.3}

In my last vision I was shown that if you refuse reproof and correction, choose your own way, and will not be disciplined, God has no further use for you in connection with His holy work. If you had commenced the work of setting your own soul right with the Lord you would have seen so great a work to be done for yourself that you would not have spent so much time over the supposed wrongs of Brother H, dwelling upon them behind his back. The work of the last thirty years should inspire confidence in the integrity of Brother H. "Honor to whom honor is due." {4T 93.1}

Men in responsible positions should improve continually. They must not anchor upon an old experience and feel that it is not necessary to become scientific workers. Man, although the most helpless of God's creatures when he comes into the world, and the most perverse in his nature, is nevertheless capable of constant advancement. He may be enlightened by science, ennobled by virtue, and may progress in mental and moral dignity, until he reaches a perfection of intelligence and a purity of character but little lower than the perfection and purity of angels. With the light of truth shining upon the minds of men, and the love of God shed abroad in their hearts, we cannot conceive what they may become nor what great work they may do. {4T 93.2}

I know that the human heart is blind to its own true condition, but I cannot leave you without making an effort to help you. We love you, and we want to see you pressing on to victory. Jesus loves you. He died for you, and He wants you to be saved. We have no disposition to hold you in -----; but we do want you to make thorough work with your own soul, to right every wrong there, and make every effort to master self, lest you miss heaven. This you cannot afford to do. For Christ's sake, resist the devil, and he will flee from you. {4T 93.3}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/05/06 05:37 PM

Okay, but the quote you posted teaches us that "when" we are born again, when self is crucified our defective traits of character are "dropped out of the life" - not after years of gradually discovering them. It is during the process of conversion, which leads up to rebirth and conversion, that we confess the defects and imperfections brought to our attention for the first time in light of the cross by the Holy Spirit. When we complete this process then we are born again.

Please note the when-then relationship described in the following quotes, the amazing grace contrast before and after rebirth:

“Show that true conversion is a change of heart, of thoughts and purposes. Evil habits are to be given up. The sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away. A warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character.” (6T 95)

“There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ.” (1 S&T 246)

“When in conversion the sinner finds peace with God through the blood of the atonement, the Christian life has but just begun.” (FLB 117)

“When He gives you the mind of Christ, your will becomes as His will, and your character is transformed to be like Christ’s character.” (5T 515)

“When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new.” (TMK 247)

“When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.” (COL 311)

“When true conversion takes place in the heart, it is made manifest in a transformation of character, for those who are converted become Christlike.” (TMK 62)

“You have confessed your sins, and in heart put them away. You have resolved to give yourself to God. Now go to Him, and ask that He will wash away your sins and give you a new heart. Then believe that He does this because He has promised.” (SC 49)

“We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ.” (5T 47)

“But Jesus was ever presenting before them that these [defective traits of character] must be given up, emptied from the soul, that he might implant a new nature therein.” (RH 10-5-1897)

“Your self-esteem will be hurt, your high opinion of yourself will be cut away by the ax and the hammer, and the roughness of your character will be smoothed off; and when self and carnal propensities are worked away, then the stone will assume proper proportions for the heavenly building, and then the polishing, refining, subduing, burnishing processes will begin, and you will be molded after the model of Christ’s character.” (YI 1-3-1895)

“The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian’s life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit.” (DA 172)

“By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God; a patient, protracted process.” (DA 172)

“When the Spirit of God takes possession of the heart, it transforms the life. Sinful thoughts are put away, evil deeds are renounced; love, humility, and peace take the place of anger, envy, and strife. Joy takes the place of sadness, and the countenance reflects the light of heaven. No one sees the hand that lifts the burden, or beholds the light descend from the courts above. The blessing comes when by faith the soul surrenders itself to God. Then that power which no human eye can see creates a new being in the image of God.” (DA 173)

“The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, ‘I delight to do Thy will, O my God.’” (DA 176)

“All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes.” (COL 330)

“When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing.” (DA 676)

“New faculties are not supplied, but a thorough change is made in the employment of those faculties. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives are implanted. But while every faculty is regenerated, man does not lose his identity.” (TDG 186)

“The appetites and passions must be held in subjection to the higher powers of the mind.” (CC 271) “Those who overcome will follow the example of Christ by bringing bodily appetites and passions under the control of enlightened conscience and reason.” (CON 74)

“The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual.” (4T 429)

“When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.” (6 BC 1101)

“Communion with God imparts to the soul an intimate knowledge of His will. But many who profess the faith know not what true conversion is. They have no experience in communion with the Father through Jesus Christ, and have never felt the power of divine grace to sanctify the heart. Praying and sinning, sinning and praying, their lives are full of malice, deceit, envy, jealousy, and self-love. The prayers of this class are an abomination to God.” (4T 534)

Posted By: John H.

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/09/06 04:06 AM

Mike, I haven't read all the many pages that constitute this thread, and don't plan on doing so. But I am well acquainted with your views on instant character perfection upon conversion.

Let me ask you this -- have you never run an SOP search using phrases such as "character defects," "defects of character," and the like? EGW wrote many times about and to people who had character flaws that were unknown to them, and these were people who had been converted SDAs for many years. So according to God's prophet, your views on this subject cannot be correct.

Furthermore, I've seen you talk about how you've attained to moral perfection, in keeping with your views; but Sis. White again wrote repeatedly about people who make such claims. She said that those who lay claim to religious perfection of any kind are really the ones who are the farthest from it. Those who draw the closest to God are those who most deeply feel their unworthiness. Such truly holy people would never claim to be perfect, morally or in any other way.

I could post many quotations here in support of what I'm saying, but I think it might be more fruitful if you'd run the searches and discover these things for yourself.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/09/06 04:16 AM

Yes, I know a person who used to say that he hadn't sinned in 20 years.

I don't know if he is still saying this today though.

Posted By: gordonb1

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/09/06 05:32 AM

Hello John,

Your recent statement - "EGW wrote many times about and to people who had character flaws that were unknown to them, and these were people who had been converted SDAs for many years." - prompts some questions.

It is true that EGW wrote often to others urging their reform and complete consecration, sometimes in very strong terms. It appears she had a burden for their souls, which at times she declared were imperiled.

But were these flaws unknown to themselves, or rather were these flaws denied, glossed over and covered up? Can a truly converted Christian have soul-damning flaws/sins and be unaware of them? This would seem to lay the charge at Christ's feet for not informing his members of deadly danger.

And can you be sure these were truly converted SDAs "for years". Perhaps they had experienced conversion long before, but had backslidden to lukewarmness (which does not enter the gates, but is spued out), or open sin, as with J.H. Waggoner. Perhaps they were long in the church, but never truly converted, as Peter was admonished "when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Luke 22:32.

Perhaps you have ample SOP evidence to support your assertions. If so, could you provide it?

It does not seem possible that EGW would need to write to truly converted Christians to warn them of soul destroying sins.

Please elaborate and clarify your statement,

Thank you,

Gordon

Posted By: Tom

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/09/06 07:53 AM

A couple of minor corrections, Gordon.

1.If you are thinking of Rev. 3 in regards to the lukewarmness, Christ does not spue the lukewarm out of His mouth. Rather He feels sick to His stomach. It's like lukewarm water makes you want to vomit. But the Greek says Christ is "about" to spue them out of His mouth. When this expression is used elsewhere in the NT, it describes an action which is about to take place, but doesn't. For example, John was "about" to write down something before he was told not to.

2.Peter had been truly converted before his fall. Both Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy bear this out. He was converted, and then fell, and then re-converted. Judas was the only one of the disciples who was never converted.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/09/06 05:28 PM

JH: Mike, I haven't read all the many pages that constitute this thread, and don't plan on doing so. But I am well acquainted with your views on instant character perfection upon conversion.

MM: From what you’ve posted here it is clear to me you are not as familiar with the view of conversion, rebirth, and moral perfection I have embraced as you say you are. The Bible and the SOP quotes posted throughout this thread, especially the ones posted above, make it clear that truly born again believers are reborn morally complete in Christ.

JH: Let me ask you this -- have you never run an SOP search using phrases such as "character defects," "defects of character," and the like? EGW wrote many times about and to people who had character flaws that were unknown to them, and these were people who had been converted SDAs for many years. So according to God's prophet, your views on this subject cannot be correct.

MM: Yes, I have done an extensive search. In fact, this thread deals with those findings. You might want to reconsider your unwillingness to read it.

JH: Furthermore, I've seen you talk about how you've attained to moral perfection, in keeping with your views; but Sis. White again wrote repeatedly about people who make such claims. She said that those who lay claim to religious perfection of any kind are really the ones who are the farthest from it. Those who draw the closest to God are those who most deeply feel their unworthiness. Such truly holy people would never claim to be perfect, morally or in any other way.

MM: Moral perfection is a gift we receive the moment we experience the miracle of rebirth. Jesus implants within us the sinless seed or mind of the new man. It comes complete with all the righteous fruit and attributes of God’s character. See quotes above. Although we are born again with all of the righteous traits and tendencies of God’s character we are not, however, born again morally mature. Sanctification is the lifelong process, including eternal life, of maturing in the fruits of Spirits, of developing the traits and tendencies we received the moment we were born again.

JH: I could post many quotations here in support of what I'm saying, but I think it might be more fruitful if you'd run the searches and discover these things for yourself.

MM: Again, John, it has already been done and posted on this thread. Please take a minute to read it. Thank you.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/09/06 08:24 PM

DF: Yes, I know a person who used to say that he hadn't sinned in 20 years. I don't know if he is still saying this today though.

MM: Daryl, do you know of anyone on MSDAOL who is claiming not to have sinned for such and such a period of time? If so, please repost it here. Thank you. Also, what prompted you to post such a thing on this thread?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/09/06 09:37 PM

MS: MM is saying that after conversion we are enlightened and no longer sin ignorantly.

MM: Mark, I have gone to great lengths to explain the difference between moral and mental sins. No one, especially a born again believer, can commit a moral sin without realizing it. Not even heathens. Everyone knows before and after they are converted whether they are guilty of committing a moral sin or not. See Romans 2:13-15.

However, a sincerely converted believer can, in theory, be guilty of committing certain sins ignorantly, that is, without realizing it. I'm not talking about unintentional sins. An unintentional sin is one that we know is wrong but it slipped out of his spontaneously. We repent of it immediately. Neither am I talking about breaking anyone of the last six commandments. Again, everyone, whether born again or not, knows when they are guilty of breaking one of the last six commandments. We are naturally born with such knowledge.

A sin of ignorance is a mental or intellectual issue. It has to do with Biblical insights which require Bible study and conviction before we can be aware of such wrongdoing. We are not born with this knowledge. We must first read about it in the Bible and then experience conviction regarding it before we can be aware of it.

There is no such thing as a sin of ignorance as it pertains to the last six commandments. It only applies to those things that must first be learned through Bible study and conviction. Do you see the same difference?

Posted By: gordonb1

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/10/06 03:39 AM

Hello Tom,

Thank you for your reply. Primarily I am asking John if there is evidence to support his statement that ‘EGW wrote to converted Christians to warn them of unknown character flaws.’ I do not recall reading such statements or sentiments from her pen.

This morning I reviewed the corrections you posted.

1. Yes, I refer to ‘lukewarm’ as spoken in Rev. 3:16, and applied to the church of the Laodiceans. The word you have keyed upon is 'will', as highlighted below:

Rev. 3:16 - So then because thou art likewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

You assert this action will not happen, based upon the Greek. I find otherwise, that based upon the NT Greek, this action will come to pass. This word ‘mello’ (Strong’s 3195 - to intend ) occurs over one hundred times in the NT and the following verses give context to actions which came to pass, as evidenced by Scriptural record.

Matt. 2:13 - Herod will seek the young child (Christ) - Herod did seek
Matt. 17:12 - Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them - He did.
Matt. 17:22 - The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men - He was
John 7:39 - the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive - they did
John 11:51 - he prophesied that Jesus should die - Jesus died
John 14:22 - how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us - Jesus did
Acts 3:3 - seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple - they did
Acts 11:28 - that there should be great dearth in the world: which came to pass
Acts 20:7 - Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow - he did depart
Rev. 12:4 - woman which was ready to be delivered - she did deliver

Other references relate to intended actions which were interrupted by Providence (as in your example of John in Rev. 10:4 - "I was about to write...and I heard a voice...write them not"), or to prophecies yet unfulfilled:

Matt. 16:27 - the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father - He will
Matt. 24:6 - And ye shall hear of wars - we do
Acts 17:31 - a day, in the which he will judge the world - He will
Acts 24:15 - that there shall be a resurrection of the dead - there will be
Heb. 1:14 - who shall be heirs of salvation? - they shall
Rev. 3:10 - hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world - it will
Rev. 3: 16 - I will spue thee out - He will
Rev. 8:13 - three angels, which are yet to sound! - they will

I believe these examples, when read in context, will confirm that mello can define a finished action. Only zealous repentance can elicit a pardon from the sentence “I will spue thee out”.

(Tepid or lukewarm water is my regular beverage, without ill effect - I recommend it)

The following post will quote from EGW sources using ‘lukewarm’ in the Rev. 3:16 context.

Gordon

Posted By: gordonb1

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/10/06 04:20 AM

Hello Tom,

Here are some Ellen White observations on the church, or assembly of those found in the Laodicean condition, labelled by Christ as “lukewarm”. Included are some of the warnings EGW sent to professing Christians, but she makes it very clear they are not converted.

The great mass of professing Christians will meet with bitter disappointment in the day of God. They have not upon their foreheads the seal of the living God. Lukewarm and halfhearted, they dishonor God far more than the avowed unbeliever. - 7BC 970

There are a large number of professing Christians who do not really follow Jesus. They do not bear the cross by proper self-denial and self-sacrifice. Although making a great profession of being earnest Christians, they weave into the fabric of their character so many of the threads of their own imperfections that the beautiful pattern is spoiled. Of them Christ says: "You boast of being rich and increased with supposed spiritual attainments. In reality you are neither cold nor hot, but are filled with vain conceit. Unless converted, you cannot be saved; for you would mar heaven with your unsanctified wisdom. I cannot endorse your spirit and your work. You do not act according to the divine Example. You are following a pattern merely of your own invention. Because you are lukewarm, I must spew you out of My mouth." - 7BC 962

There are those who, though professedly serving God, are witnessing against Him. To them the message to the Laodicean church is given. Christ says to them, "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot." When the avenging angel shall pass through the land, Christ cannot say of them, "Touch them not. I have graven them upon the palms of my hands." No; of these halfhearted ones He says, "I will spew them out of my mouth. They are offensive to me" - 7BC 963

Christ can not present before the Father those who are lukewarm ...”I will spue thee out” (Rev. 3:16, 17 quoted) - General Conference Bulletin, April 6, 1903.

I saw that many measure themselves among themselves, and compare their lives with the lives of others. This should not be. No one but Christ is given us as an example. He is our true Pattern, and each should strive to excel in imitating Him. We are co-workers with Christ, or co-workers with the enemy. We either gather with Christ or scatter abroad. We are decided, wholehearted Christians, or none at all. Says Christ: "I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of My mouth." - 1T 126.

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of My mouth." Were you cold, there would be some hope that you would be converted; but where self-righteousness girds one about, instead of the righteousness of Christ, the deception is so difficult to be seen, and the self-righteousness so hard to be put away, that the case is the most difficult to reach. An unconverted, godless sinner stands in a more favorable condition than such.

You are a stumbling block to sinners. Your lack of consecration is marked. You are scattering from Christ instead of gathering with Him...you are--just that which God cannot accept, just that which, if you remain the same, will be stubble for the fire to consume in the day of God. - 2T 176

Sins exist in the church that God hates, but they are scarcely touched for fear of making enemies. Opposition has risen in the church to the plain testimony. Some will not bear it.

When the church depart from God they despise the plain testimony, and complain of severity and harshness. It is a sad evidence of the lukewarm state of the church.

Just as long as God has a church, he will have those who will cry aloud and spare not, who will be his instruments to reprove selfishness and sins, and will not shun to declare the whole counsel of God, whether men will hear or forbear. I saw that individuals would rise up against the plain testimonies. It does not suit their natural feelings. They would choose to have smooth things spoken unto them, and have peace cried in their ears. I view the church in a more dangerous condition than they ever have been. Experimental religion is known but by a few. The shaking must soon take place to purify the church. 2 Spiritual Gifts, 283, 284. (c.1858)

Many of our people are lukewarm. They occupy the position of Meroz, neither for nor against, neither cold nor hot. They hear the words of Christ, but do them not. If they remain in this state, He will reject them with abhorrence. - 5T 76-77

This is a long post , but it speaks with one voice. There is no hint or even slight suggestion from Ellen White that those in the Laodicean/lukewarm state will be saved. To search ‘Lukewarm’ on the EGW Estate yields 168 hits, many multiple entries. The only hope for Laodicea is zealous repentance. Those unrepentant, unconverted, will be shaken out and rejected.

Upon what basis do you make your assertions, Tom? They are diametrically oppossed to the plain testimony. We are in dangerous error to explain away such prophecies uttered in warning and love from our Saviour. I see no basis for your claims, but please bring forth your evidence.

Thank you for prompting this revealing study, which has blessed my understanding.

In a later post I'll respond to your statement on Peter's conversion.

Bro. Gordon

Posted By: Tom

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/10/06 06:27 AM

I agree with the point that if one does not repent, then one will be rejected. There are those who take the Rev. 3 statement and argue that God has rejected, or will reject, the SDA church, because of its lukewarmness, and point to this verse to make their case.

The reason for rejection is brought out by Jesus Christ:

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (John 3)

Here is a portion of a sermon by A. T. Jones:

"I COUNSEL thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in unto him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev.3:10-20.

GCBD93 page 0200 paragraph 8 This is the counsel that we want to study to-night. I counsel thee. Who is this? [Congregation: Christ.] What is he called in the 14th verse? [Congregation: Faithful and True Witness.] He will make quite a good counselor, will he? The faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God, comes and counsels you and me. Isn't that a good deal of condescension, considering the place from whence the counselor comes? That which we have been studying during the several lessons that are past, that which has come before us so constantly and so fully a few days past now, that word sent to the Laodicean church as to what we are, and how we do not know it - that has come to us from every point of the compass, hasn't it, the last few days? It has come from every side, and from every mouth that has spoken, and the Lord with all the rest has spoken direct to us in the word that was read yesterday upon that very thing. Well, I suppose that all now are ready to confess that what he says is so. So I will not repeat any of that to-night.

He has told us that, and now if we confess that that is so, we shall be ready to take his counsel and appreciate it, and will profit by his counsel, because it is only those persons whom he counsels. Those who receive his testimony; those who are spoken of just before this; he counsels those who are poor, wretched, miserable, blind and naked and do not know it; those that are lukewarm - that is the people to whom this counsel is given. Well, having been brought to that place by the word and testimony, and in every way the Lord has dealt with us these days that are past, in all the lessons that have been given us, then he stoops down and counsels us. Isn't that so? Then, brethren, let us not be so slow to take this counsel as we were the other. Let us not be so slow to come to a place where we can adopt this, as we were to get into a place where we could adopt the other.

This is from another:

Now the question as to whether there is any need of it. Suppose we say we do not see anything to confess at all. That does not touch the matter in any way. When God sends us word that we are sinful, it is for us to say we are so, whether we can see it or not. That should be our experience. We feel rich and increased in goods, and know not that we are wretched and miserable and blind and naked. This is just our condition exactly, whether we can see it or not. When God sends us a message and tells us to believe it, it is time for us to be about it. When he sends out these instructions, it is time that we should confess our sins, and set about to remove them, and to see how long a time it will take, just notice this example in 2Sam.12, where the Lord sent the prophet Nathaniel to David, who said "Thou art the man."

These are from the 1893 General Conference session. The first comment is from A. T. Jones, the second by W. W. Prescott.

This is from Ellen White:

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe" [1 Thess. 2:13]. The word of God cannot work effectually in the heart when it is barred out by unbelief. The message which the messengers have been proclaiming is the message to the Laodicean church. [Rev. 3:14-20, quoted.] (1888 Materials, 1051)

I had in mind A. T. Jones' message, which EGW recognizes as being from God. A. T. Jones makes constant reference to the Laodicean message as referring to ourselves. We all are poor, wretched, miserable, blind and naked, and have need to repent.

Perhaps I should not have commented because this is really not the same context as the discussion MM was bringing up. But we can continue the discussion if you wish.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/10/06 05:42 PM

Tom, I fervently disagree with your view of morality as it relates to law and light, guilt and condemnation. According to Webster: “Morality is conduct that conforms to an accepted standard of right and wrong.” Jesus will judge Gentiles based on whether or not they lived in harmony with the accepted standard of conduct. That’s what Paul meant in Romans 2:13-15.

Furthermore, a cursory study of cultural ethics and morality around the world, among first, second, and third world communities, reveals clearly everyone everywhere upholds the standards as outlined in the last six commandments. The only variations that exist around the world from the beginning of time have to do with the first four commandments and the laws of Moses.

Again, Jesus does not hold anyone morally guilty of violating one of His moral codes of conduct if they are truly ignorant of them. It is not viewed as a moral sin if they have no idea what they are doing breaks one of Jesus’ laws.

Morality involves a conscious choice to obey or disobey. Thus, no one can ignorantly violate one of the last six commandments. Why? Because no one is ignorant of them. However, there are literally millions of people who innocently and ignorantly violated dozens of Jesus' moral laws. And not one of them is counted guilty or immoral for it.

Labeling the differences between moral and mental sins the way I have may not suit your theology, Tom, but it does make perfect sense to me, and plenty of others. Again, no one is guilty of immorality if they are truly ignorant of their wrongdoing.

5BC 1145
Men will not be judged for light they have never had. But those who have kept Sunday, whose attention has been called to this error, but who would not open their eyes to behold wondrous things out of the law, will be judged according to the light that has come to them (RH Sept. 13, 1898). {5BC 1145.5}

5T 436
The mistakes that are the natural result of blindness of mind are, when pointed out, no longer sins of ignorance or errors of judgment; but unless there are decided reforms in accordance with the light given, they then become presumptuous sins. The moral darkness that surrounds you will become more dense; your heart will become harder and harder, and you will be more offensive in the sight of God. {5T 435.3}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/10/06 05:45 PM

Brother Gordon, thank you for sharing your views on this thread. The inspired quotes and insights you share are a breath of fresh air. I also greatly appreciate the kind and patient manner in which you state the truth. Thank you.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/10/06 06:07 PM

Mike, the Ten Commandments are the moral law.

His {God's} laws were not alone for the Jewish nation. The moral law was given before the people called Jews were in existence. The law of ten commandments was of universal obligation. (Sons and Daughters of God 44)

Here we see that the law of ten commandments, not six, is of universal obligation. This law of ten commandments is the "moral law." To break one of these commandments, any one of them, is not a mental sin, but a moral sin. If broken in ignorance, it is a moral sin of ignorance. If broken intentionally, it is a moral sin not done in ignorance.

There is nothing in Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy which suggests that one can commit a sin which does not violate the moral law. I noticed you presented no evidence from inspiration to support your ideas. (The texts you did present support the position I've been presenting, dealing with sins of ignorance.)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/10/06 06:47 PM

TE: Mike, the Ten Commandments are the moral law.

MM: I agree. We can also include the laws of Moses. To knowingly violate any one of them is a moral sin, too.

TE: To break one of these commandments, any one of them, is not a mental sin, but a moral sin. If broken in ignorance, it is a moral sin of ignorance.

MM: I disagree. Please refer to my previous post as to why. Thank you.

TE: There is nothing in Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy which suggests that one can commit a sin which does not violate the moral law.

MM: I agree.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/10/06 07:23 PM

His {God's} laws were not alone for the Jewish nation. The moral law was given before the people called Jews were in existence. The law of ten commandments was of universal obligation. (Sons and Daughters of God 44)

MM, you didn't comment on the main point. All Ten Commandments are universal! Not just six.

Inspiration knows nothing of your idea that the last six commandments are universal and violating them is moral sin whereas the first four are just mental sins. Inspiration presents all ten commandments as being moral and universal. Breaking any one of them is, of course, a moral sin.

Inspiration is quite clear in treating sins of ignorance. Why add a new category, "mental sins," of which inspiration knows nothing?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/10/06 07:41 PM

Yes, Tom, the law is universal. It is the standard by which everyone will be sentenced in judgment. Everyone is born with an instinctive knowledge of the last six commandments. Since everyone is aware of what is morally right and wrong, as defined by the last six commandments, no one can break them ignorantly.

But no one is born with an instinctive knowledge of the first four commandments, or most of the laws of Moses. It requires Bible study and conviction before Jesus will hold anyone morally accountable for breaking them.

Knowingly violating one of Jesus’ commandments is a moral sin. Breaking one of them ignorantly is not a moral sin. Morality involves conscious choice. No one is guilty of immorality if they sin innocently and ignorantly.

Again, the blood of Jesus is applied to sins of ignorance if they reach judgment unknown and unrepented.

Posted By: Will

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/10/06 10:35 PM

MM,
[QUOTE]
Again, the blood of Jesus is applied to sins of ignorance if they reach judgment unknown and unrepented.
[/QUOTE]

Does this not apply to when a person knowingly sins, and then feels guilt and confesses his or her sins and repents? COuld you elaborate on your above statement.
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/10/06 11:04 PM

Yes, Will, Jesus will apply the benefits of His blood to make atonement for confessed and forsaken known sins. He will not, however, justify unconfessed, unforsaken known sins.

It is different in the case of sins of igorance in that Jesus will apply the benefits of His blood to atone for them in judgment - even if they make it there unknown and unconfessed.

The reason for making this point is because Tom disagrees. He believes the blood of Jesus is not required to atone for sins of ignorance if they make it to judgment unknown and unconfessed. He maintains sins of ignorance require blood atonement only if the sinner becomes aware of them and confesses them before he dies.

What do you think?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/10/06 11:15 PM

Tom,

Do you, as MM posted, believe the blood of Jesus is not required to atone for sins of ignorance if they make it to judgment unknown and unconfessed?

Do you, as MM also posted, maintain sins of ignorance require blood atonement only if the sinner becomes aware of them and confesses them before he dies?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/10/06 11:23 PM

MM, let me make clear my position. If you look at Leviticus and Numbers where it speaks of the atonement for sins of ignorance, you will see that that offering is made *after* the person becomes aware that they had sinned ignorantly. That is, the sinner commits a sin in ignorance, becomes aware, and then confesses the sin and makes the offering.

If you think about what the atonement, or "at-one-ment," is all about, it makes perfect sense. If we are doing something harmful to a relationship, but don't know it, there nothing that can be done to heal the wounds caused by the harmful action, until that harmful action becomes known. After it becomes known, then the wound can be healed.

It's not a matter of applying rules to satisfy legal requirements. The plan of salvation is not about legal loopholes. It's about restoring relationships. Sin destroys our relationship with God. The atonement is the means by which God restores the relationship which sin has harmed.

The atonement is effect by God's making known His true character to us in Jesus Christ. This is what brings about our healing.

The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 22)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/10/06 11:49 PM

Tom, I agree with the SOP that Jesus made manifest the loving kingdom and character of the Godhead. No doubt about it. Jesus never has used, nor ever will use, force to compel people to obey or disobey. But this insight in no way means Jesus never has, nor ever will, punish and destroy sinners with fire.

Regarding atoning for sins of ignorance that make it to judgment unknown and unconfessed: it is clear to me that the reason Jesus applies the benefits of His blood to atone for them is because the law requires death for sin.

According to the law, sin is sin whether known or unknown, and the law demands that God 1) punish sinners according to their sinfulness, and then 2) destroy them. I realize you disagree with this insight.

Also, regarding defective traits of character: no one can violate one of the last six commandments without at least initially feeling guilty of wrongdoing. This is true of believers and unbelievers alike.

Everyone is born with an instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong as outlined in the last six commandments. Thus, no one can cultivate a defective trait of characer which violates one of the last six commandments without realizing it is morally wrong.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/11/06 01:11 AM

Daryl, more specifically the question is - Will Jesus forgive sins of ignorance without applying the benefits of His blood that make it to judgment unknown and unconfessed?

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/11/06 01:29 AM

The quote I was posting when the forum was hacked:

"The nearer the Christian lives to God, the more he advances in divine illumination of mind. He has more distinct sense of his own littleness, discerns his defects of character, and sees his duty in the light in which God presents it. The more closely he draws to Jesus, the more he has a near and clear sense of his own defects which had before escaped his notice, and he sees the necessity of humbling himself under the mighty hand of God. If lifted up it will not be because he lifts and exalts himself, but because the Lord exalts him. Having his eye fixed upon the purity and perfection of Jesus Christ, and acknowledging and obeying God in all his ways, he is not blinded to his own failures and imperfections. When his deportment in the eyes of men is unblamable and irreprovable, God reads the intents and purposes of the heart." {TDG 16.2}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/11/06 02:33 AM

The question as to whether God will forgive sins performed in ignorance is wonderfully revealed by Jesus Christ: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

If we think of the atonement in terms of "at-one-ment," as dealing with loving relationships between individuals, rather than as trying to solve legal problems, the whole think is as easy as pie to understand.

If you are doing something in ignorance which is harming our relaitonship, I need to be made aware of what I'm doing in order for our relationship to be healed. It's just that simple. Until I'm aware of what I'm doing, you have the option of forgiving me of the harmful thing I'm doing, or to hold it against me in spite of my ignorance. We have ample evidence that God will never hold any sin against anyone where the sin is committed in ingnorance, providing the person didn't deliberately avoid evidence that would make known the harmful act.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/11/06 02:37 AM

MM, you seem to have the idea that Christ can apply the benfits of His blood in a way which doesn't in any way impact the sinner. Please present some evidence for this idea.

Every example I found in the Spirit of Prophecy which speaks of benefits of the atonement involve the sinner repenting and exercising faith in Christ.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/11/06 03:57 AM

Rosangela, the context of the quote you posted makes it clear that Sister White is addressing health retreat leaders who were guilty of wilfully twisting the testimonies to serve their distorted notions. They were not ignorant of their wrongdoing. Their defects were clearly revealed to them and they chose to disregard the counsel of God.

20MR 120-122 St. Helena Rural Health Retreat Not To Be Closed; Divine Counsel To Be

I say in regard to the Health Retreat that it has had a hard time. The curse of God is not on the Crystal Springs institution, but the Lord is displeased with those who have followed their own course of action and not the ways of the Lord, and then have uttered their denouncement of the institution. If Crystal Springs is to be the furnace to try the character to detect the dross and worthless metal, as it has done, and to reveal the gold, let it live, for this is an essential work, to test the metal of men to see how self has been mingled with their plans and course of action.

Yet you flattered yourself, and talked to others of your great desire to help the cause of God and to do a great and good work. You will help the cause of God if you can do it and follow out your own plans and after your own order, to please yourself, but you see no light in following any other plan than that which you desire. You have the matter plainly stated in what I have written to you from time to time. Please read these testimonies. You cannot be clear before God until you make these things right by going over the ground at the Health Retreat and making a different showing and manifesting a different spirit than when you were there before.

But this decided statement is passed over, and you gather up my words and interpret them to favor the closing of the Health Retreat. Now, my words were all opposed to this. I had the statement of your plans, and I say these plans will not carry. You presented to yourself formidable objections to the Retreat's being where it is now located. You talked of the heavy indebtedness upon the institution, and I could but call to mind the report brought by the unfaithful spies. You need the mold of Christ, then good material will be brought into your character building.

The Lord bears long with men, and when they manifest a determination to follow their own judgments, the Lord allows them to do so. I have been made to see the weakness and ignorance of fallen man, even in his best estate. As man goes deeper and deeper in his studies, improving in learning the will and ways of the Lord, he sees more of his own ignorance, thus revealing that he has made decided progress from the beginning.

The nearer the Christian lives to God, the more he advances in divine illumination of mind. He has more distinct sense of his own littleness, discerns his defects of character, and sees his duty in the light in which God presents it. The more closely he draws to Jesus, the more he has a near and clear sense of his own defects which had before escaped his notice, and he sees the necessity of humbling himself under the mighty hand of God. If lifted up it will not be because he lifts and exalts himself, but because the Lord exalts him. Having his eyes fixed upon the purity and perfection of Christ Jesus, and acknowledging and obeying God in all his ways, he is not blinded to his own failures and imperfections. When his deportment in the eyes of men is unblamable and irreprovable, God reads the intents and purposes of the heart.

Christian humility is a wonderful grace--the very antidote to the apostasy of Satan, which has unholy ambition and every delusion that he can frame. The grace of humility through Christ Jesus will make an imperfect man discern his imperfections and make him meet for the inheritance of the saints, where God is all and in all.

I know from the light given me of God that there should be no closing up of the Health Retreat. Should the perplexities in which the Retreat is now involved result in its closing up, Satan would triumph. If those who have hurt the institution by their unwise movements, by their blindness of perception, by their own spirit and narrow action, would come to the right position and all work to remove the stigma they have brought upon it by their own plans, the institution would live and prosper. But when Satan makes a determined effort to assault this instrumentality of God, there are those who ought to know better who unite with the powers of darkness to weaken and discourage and uproot it. But God has said, "Let it live," and it will live if the people of the Lord will do their duty.

Has not the Lord reproved your course, Dr. M.? Why do you maintain your own way nevertheless? Never, never be guilty of yielding to a deceitful, false tongue. Both of you have entrusted capabilities that may be improved greatly and be made efficacious under the discipline of God. Then His righteousness will go before you, and the glory of the Lord will be your rereward. "Without Me," says Christ, "ye can do nothing." [bIf you set at naught His counsel, then you are in danger. You may both be a blessing to the Health Retreat if you bring to it a right spirit and take hold of it as God's work, and not to receive the adulation of man and turn the attention of the people to yourselves to bind them to you, but fasten them to Jesus.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/11/06 04:04 AM

TE: MM, you seem to have the idea that Christ can apply the benfits of His blood in a way which doesn't in any way impact the sinner. Please present some evidence for this idea.

MM: The investigative judgment of the dead is all about Jesus doing things that do not affect the sinner while alive. Applying the benefits of His blood in cases of unknown and unconfessed sins of ignorance pertains only to those who are dead.

Hebrews
9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/11/06 06:50 AM

Are you thinking of this statement?

But before this can be accomplished, there must be an examination of the books of record to determine who, through repentance of sin and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of His atonement. (GC 421)

Please note that it is those who "through repentance of sin and faith in Christ" who are entitled to the benefits of the atonement.

Regarding Heb. 9:22, please consider the following:

YOU will find the text in the ninth chapter of Hebrews, and the twenty-second verse: "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. This text has in it the very soul and center and secret of all true Christian consecration. The idea has obtained that God was angry with men because of sin, that God's wrath must be satisfied; and so an arrangement must be made by which he could pour out his wrath upon his Son, and thus satisfy his justice. And while this wrath was waiting for full satisfaction when it should be poured out on his Son, a system of sacrifice was instituted which would appease his wrath temporarily, and hold it in abeyance. But this idea of atonement, or reconciliation, separates entirely between the Father and the Son, making the Father so stern and hard that he demands his full "pound of flesh," so to speak, and the Son so kind, so good, that he gives it out of his own heart that we may be set free. Thus, instead of Christ revealing the Father, the two are opposite - entirely separated. But no, "He that hath seen the Son hath seen the Father." And if you want to know how God feels toward sin, notice how Christ hated sin. If you want to know how God feels toward the sinner, notice how Christ loved the sinner. God's wrath burns eternally against sin, and never will be appeased; but it will consume the sinner in the end. His love is unending, unchanging, for the sinner. And just as we have learned that the moral law is not an arbitrary thing, but a statement of everlasting love and life, so, my brethren, may we learn that, although the ceremonies have passed away by limitation, yet the meaning of those ceremonies is just as true to-day as then. And it still is true that "without the shedding of blood there is no remission." (Fifield, Sermon #2, 1897 GCB)

It is true that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin (for human beings), but the question is why? Peter gives us the answer:

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Pet. 3:18)

The purpose of the blood is to bring us to God. Paul brings out the same point:

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. (Col. 1:19-21)

Jesus brings out the same point:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:14-16)

The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that the whole purpose of Christ's mission on earth was to reveal God to us that we might be set right with Him. She was right!

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/11/06 06:14 PM

TE: The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that the whole purpose of Christ's mission on earth was to reveal God to us that we might be set right with Him. She was right!

MM: By “set right” are you referring to the justification Jesus made possible and available to us through His blood atonement? Or, do mean Jesus will empower us to live in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the Bible? In other words, are you referring to sanctification? Or, both?

The following quotes provide insights as to the purpose of Jesus’ life and death:

Matthew
1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

1 John
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

TE: The purpose of the blood is to bring us to God.

MM: Tom, that is only one reason why Jesus had to die as our substitute. A very good reason, though. Thank you, Jesus! But there are other reasons, too.

Tom, do you agree that 1) the law requires God to punish sinners in proportion to their sinfulness the moment they sin, 2) that the law then requires God to destroy them, that 3) God is obligated to satisfy the demands of the law, that 4) Jesus’ substitutionary death satisfies the demands of the law and appeases the wrath of God, and that 5) Jesus’ death gives God the legal right to pardon us and to empower us to live without sinning and to cultivate the righteous traits of Jesus’ character?

Also, do you agree that no one can unknowingly cultivate an unholy trait of character that violates one of the last six commandments? Do you agree that it is impossible to possess a cultivated sinful trait of character, as condemned by the last six commandments, without realizing it is morally unacceptable?

Again, Jesus cannot ignore or dismiss unknown and unconfessed sins of ignorance during the investigative judgment of the dead. He is required by aw to apply the benefits of His blood to atone for them.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/11/06 06:33 PM

Rosangela, do you agree that the retreat leaders were not ignorant of their defects, that they were fully aware of their wrongdoing?

“Has not the Lord reproved your course, Dr. M.? Why do you maintain your own way nevertheless? Never, never be guilty of yielding to a deceitful, false tongue.”

Do you agree that the retreat leaders were resisting the potential for growth in grace as described in the following sentences?

“The nearer the Christian lives to God, the more he advances in divine illumination of mind. He has more distinct sense of his own littleness, discerns his defects of character, and sees his duty in the light in which God presents it.”

Do you agree that the defects and imperfections the retreat leaders were guilty of had not escaped their notice, that they were fully aware of them?

“The more closely he draws to Jesus, the more he has a near and clear sense of his own defects which had before escaped his notice, and he sees the necessity of humbling himself under the mighty hand of God.”

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/12/06 04:28 AM

TE: Sin will kill us, so to save us, God must separate us from our sins. This He does by drawing us to Himself. Every sin which is acknowledge with a contrite heart, God will remove.

MM: How does God prevent sin from killing us right now?

TE: 1. The more sin, the more suffering.

MM: Isn’t this the result of God making it possible for to live a long life of sinning without dying? How much suffering we would experience if God allowed the first sin to kill us?

TE: 2. The law is not a sentient being who rules God.

MM: Is God above the law? Is the law a god?

TE: 3.Same answer as 2.

MM: Can God disregard the just demands of the law? Or, is He obligated by law to execute the death penalty?

AG 139
Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2}

TE: 4.I agree with Waggoner's statement here:

MM: Do you also agree with the following insight:

AG 138
Does God turn from justice in showing mercy to the sinner? No; God cannot dishonor His law by suffering it to be transgressed with impunity. Under the new covenant, perfect obedience is the condition of life. If the sinner repents and confesses his sins, he will find pardon. By Christ's sacrifice in his behalf, forgiveness is secured for him. Christ has satisfied the demands of the law for every repentant, believing sinner. {AG 138.4}

TE: So no, I do not believe in your 6 commandment theory. I have repeatedly asked you to present some evidence for it, and so far you haven't. I don't expect you ever to do so, because I don't believe there is any.

MM: Tom, as you know, Jesus articulated the differences between the first four and last commandments. True, it is one law, not ten. To break one is to break them all, and vice versa. Sister White goes on to explain why certain heathens will not perish in spite of the fact they were wholly ignorant of God’s law. It is because their good works were in harmony with the last six commandments.

DA 607
The first four of the Ten Commandments are summed up in the one great precept, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart." The last six are included in the other, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." {DA 607.2}

DA 638
Even among the heathen are those who have cherished the spirit of kindness; before the words of life had fallen upon their ears, they have befriended the missionaries, even ministering to them at the peril of their own lives. Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God. {DA 638.2}

Posted By: Tom

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/12/06 04:55 AM

TE: Sin will kill us, so to save us, God must separate us from our sins. This He does by drawing us to Himself. Every sin which is acknowledge with a contrite heart, God will remove.

MM: How does God prevent sin from killing us right now?

He doesn't reveal the truth to us in doses that would result in our death.

We should not try to lessen our guilt by excusing sin. We must accept God's estimate of sin, and that is heavy indeed. Calvary alone can reveal the terrible enormity of sin. If we had to bear our own guilt, it would crush us. (MB 116)

TE: 1. The more sin, the more suffering.

MM: Isn’t this the result of God making it possible for to live a long life of sinning without dying? How much suffering we would experience if God allowed the first sin to kill us?

If we lived less, we would suffer less. Is that what you're asking? If we were to die before sinning at all, we wouldn't suffer at all.

TE: 2. The law is not a sentient being who rules God.

MM: Is God above the law?

Exactly my point. God always abides by His law. He doesn't kill, lie or steal. The law is a transcript of His character.

Is the law a god?

You're writing makes it appear you think so. You keep expressing yourself as if God were obligated to act in certain ways because of the law, rather than presenting the law as expressing His character.

TE: 3.Same answer as 2.

MM: Can God disregard the just demands of the law?

Do you mean can God act contrary to His character? If that's what you mean, the answer is no. If you mean something else, you'll have to explain what you mean.

Or, is He obligated by law to execute the death penalty?

No, God is not obligated by anybody or anything. He is God. He acts the way He does because of His character, which is defined by love. Love is the fulfilling of the law, and defines God's actions.

AG 139
Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2}

TE: 4.I agree with Waggoner's statement here:

MM: Do you also agree with the following insight:

AG 138
Does God turn from justice in showing mercy to the sinner? No; God cannot dishonor His law by suffering it to be transgressed with impunity. Under the new covenant, perfect obedience is the condition of life. If the sinner repents and confesses his sins, he will find pardon. By Christ's sacrifice in his behalf, forgiveness is secured for him. Christ has satisfied the demands of the law for every repentant, believing sinner. {AG 138.4}

Yes. I see it to be saying the same thing as Waggoner's statement, and the statement from COL from Ellen White herself which I quoted.

TE: So no, I do not believe in your 6 commandment theory. I have repeatedly asked you to present some evidence for it, and so far you haven't. I don't expect you ever to do so, because I don't believe there is any.

MM: Tom, as you know, Jesus articulated the differences between the first four and last commandments.

Never in terms of "mental" sins and "moral" sins. All sins not done in ignorance are moral sins.

True, it is one law, not ten. To break one is to break them all, and vice versa. Sister White goes on to explain why certain heathens will not perish in spite of the fact they were wholly ignorant of God’s law. It is because their good works were in harmony with the last six commandments.

No!!! It is because their good works were in harmony with ALL TEN commandments. As you mentioned, it's one law. The WHOLE law is summed up by the principle, "Thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself."

If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:8-10)

What is the royal law? The six commandments?

The apostle James, who wrote after the death of Christ, refers to the Decalogue as "the royal law" and "the perfect law of liberty." (GC 466)

DA 607
The first four of the Ten Commandments are summed up in the one great precept, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart." The last six are included in the other, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." {DA 607.2}

DA 638
Even among the heathen are those who have cherished the spirit of kindness; before the words of life had fallen upon their ears, they have befriended the missionaries, even ministering to them at the peril of their own lives. Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God. {DA 638.2}

These statements are in hamony with what I've been saying. They do not support the idea of:

1.First four commandments = mental sin.
2.Last six commandments = moral sin.

Your idea does not exist in either Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/12/06 06:03 AM

TE: He doesn't reveal the truth to us in doses that would result in our death.

MM: So darkness and ignorance is bliss?

TE: If we lived less, we would suffer less. Is that what you're asking?

MM: Sort of. More specifically, though, none of us would have to suffer for more than one sin if God allowed sin to run its natural course, right? Which means God is responsible for the suffering sinners will experience in the lake of fire above and beyond the first sin, right?

TE: No, God is not obligated by anybody or anything.

MM: Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. Do you agree?

TE: No!!! It is because their good works were in harmony with ALL TEN commandments. As you mentioned, it's one law. The WHOLE law is summed up by the principle, "Thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself."

MM: Tom, do you believe the heathens she wrote about kept the seventh-day sabbath holy?

TE: The WHOLE law is summed up by the principle, "Thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself."

MM: The first four of the Ten Commandments are summed up in the one great precept, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart." The last six are included in the other, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Do you agree?

TE: Your idea does not exist in either Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy.

MM: Tom, I strongly disagree. There are people who will be in heaven who never knew the law of God, or the son of God. There is no way they could have obeyed the first four commandments under such circumstances. But their works testify as to whether or not they lived in harmony with the last six commandments – the golden rule.

Jesus can safely take them to heaven because He knows that they would have lived in harmony with the first four commandments had they known about them. “Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.”

By the way, what do you think I mean by the labels mental and moral sins?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/12/06 06:57 AM

R: Mike, I'm not following you…. This is a universal truth; it does not reflect the behavior of the retreat leaders.

MM: Right, that’s my point, too. The truth she describes does not apply to certain types of moral defects and imperfections. So, what criteria do we use? What types of defects and imperfections can we apply it to? I suspect you and I would answer this question differently.

Since I do not believe it is possible to unknowingly or ignorantly cultivate traits of character that violate the last six commandments I do not believe it is possible to possess an unknown defective trait of character that is condemned by the last six commandments.

“It is not through one act that the character is formed, but by a repetition of acts that habits are established and character confirmed.” (ST 4-30-1894) Again, no one can repeat the same behaviour over and over again until it becomes a character trait that violates one of the six commandments without realizing it is morally wrong. Especially not a born again, Spirit-led, believer endowed with spiritual eye salve. Do you agree?

Of course, the same cannot be said of those commandments that require Bible study and conviction. For example, a truly born again believer can innocently and ignorantly break the seventh-day Sabbath or the Levitical laws of health without realizing it. Such things, however, do not constitute a defective trait of character. To qualify as a "defective" trait of character conscious disobedience is required. Otherwise, it is considered a sin of ignorance instead of a moral imperfection. Do you agree?

Posted By: Tom

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/12/06 07:51 AM

TE: He doesn't reveal the truth to us in doses that would result in our death.

MM: So darkness and ignorance is bliss?

This is how you understand the idea that God mercifully reveals truth to us only to the degree that we are willing and able to respond to it? You do realize that this idea is direct from the Spirit of Prophecy, don't you?

TE: If we lived less, we would suffer less. Is that what you're asking?

MM: Sort of. More specifically, though, none of us would have to suffer for more than one sin if God allowed sin to run its natural course, right? Which means God is responsible for the suffering sinners will experience in the lake of fire above and beyond the first sin, right?

To the same extent that God is responsible for sin at all, since He created invidividuals who sin. It seems twisted to me to blame this on God, however.

TE: No, God is not obligated by anybody or anything.

MM: Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed.

Justice is no more capable of acting on its own than the law. "Justice" or "the law" are simply concepts; they are not sentient beings! God is a Being who exercises His will. If "justice" demands that sin not merely be pardoned, but the death penalty executed, then this simply means that God demands that sin not merely be pardoned, but that the death pentalty be executed.

God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. Do you agree?

Not in the way you do. I don't believe that God is being driven by forces outside of Himself, as you seem to, by your means of expressing yourself.

I believe that God so loved the world that He gave His Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. God was motivated by love, not obligated by law.

The law is a transcript of God's character. It reveals His will; it does not create it.

TE: No!!! It is because their good works were in harmony with ALL TEN commandments. As you mentioned, it's one law. The WHOLE law is summed up by the principle, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

MM: Tom, do you believe the heathens she wrote about kept the seventh-day sabbath holy?

Do you believe the whole law is summed up by the principle, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"?

TE: The WHOLE law is summed up by the principle, "Thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself."

MM: The first four of the Ten Commandments are summed up in the one great precept, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart." The last six are included in the other, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Do you agree?

TE: Your idea does not exist in either Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy.

MM: Tom, I strongly disagree.

Then produce some evidence for your view. Where does either Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy suggest that the first four commandments are "mental" whereas the last six are "moral"?

There are people who will be in heaven who never knew the law of God, or the son of God. There is no way they could have obeyed the first four commandments under such circumstances.

No one will be saved who transgresses the law. The doers of the law will be justified.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Rev. 22:14, 15)

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9,10)

No idolater will enter heaven. That's in the first group of four.

MM, where, in either Scripture or the Spirit or Prophecy, does it teach that anyone who transgresses the first four commandments will be in heaven?

But their works testify as to whether or not they lived in harmony with the last six commandments – the golden rule.

One is not saved by living in harmony with only six commandments. That's not a Scriptural view. There is not evidence for this idea.

Jesus can safely take them to heaven because He knows that they would have lived in harmony with the first four commandments had they known about them.

There's no basis for this idea in inspiration either. NEVER does either Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy state that God decides the fate of someone based on something they *would* have done. This is a completely groundless assertion. You cannot produce one statement that says anything other than that a person will be judged based on their actual works, not on what they might have done.

“Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.”

By the way, what do you think I mean by the labels mental and moral sins?

By "mental" you mean sins of igonrance. By "moral" you mean sin which are not sins of ignorance. If you stuck to these meanings (and better yet, stuck to these phrases, which everyone knows and understands the meaning of), without introducing the idea about the last six commandments being something which people know instictively whereas the first four aren't, there wouldn't be any problem. The difficult comes when you introduce theories which have no basis in inspiration, and are contrary to reason as well.

Posted By: Tom

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/12/06 08:02 AM

Quote:

Since I do not believe it is possible to unknowingly or ignorantly cultivate traits of character that violate the last six commandments I do not believe it is possible to possess an unknown defective trait of character that is condemned by the last six commandments.

MM, you seem to take the position that your idea is the only important thing. Rather than letting your idea be shaped by evidence, it seems to me you shape the evidence according to your idea.

Here, for example, you write, "Since I do not believe it is possible to unknowingly or ignorantly cultivate traits of character that violate the last six commandments ..." and then reason from there. This shouldn't be your starting point! Your starting point should be on the basis of evidence, such as Scripture. From *there* you should reason to your conclusion, not from the basis of ideas you already hold.

The problem with making one's ideas the basis by which one reasons is that there is no possible evidence that can be presented that could persuade one that he or she is in error.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/12/06 09:04 PM

MM: Tom, do you believe the heathens she wrote about kept the seventh-day sabbath holy?

TE: Do you believe the whole law is summed up by the principle, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"? … No one will be saved who transgresses the law. The doers of the law will be justified.

MM: Why did Jesus say, On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Also, do you believe the heathens Sister White wrote about in DA 638 kept holy the seventh-day sabbath? If not, do you believe they will be saved? If so, why?

Matthew
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

TE: If "justice" demands that sin not merely be pardoned, but the death penalty executed, then this simply means that God demands that sin not merely be pardoned, but that the death pentalty be executed.

MM: Okay, then, but do you believe God demanded in addition to pardon that the death penalty be executed upon Christ as our substitute, and that His death satisfies both requirements (i.e., pardon and death)?

MM: By the way, what do you think I mean by the labels mental and moral sins?

TE: By "mental" you mean sins of igonrance. By "moral" you mean sin which are not sins of ignorance.

MM: Right.

TE: Here, for example, you write, "Since I do not believe it is possible to unknowingly or ignorantly cultivate traits of character that violate the last six commandments ..." and then reason from there. This shouldn't be your starting point! Your starting point should be on the basis of evidence, such as Scripture.

MM: The starting point is based on the Bible and the SOP. It’s just that you disagree. What distinction, if any, do you make between sins of ignorance and sinful traits of character cultivated wilfully and knowingly?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/12/06 10:30 PM

It has been postulated that the Holy Spirit does not reveal to us all of our defects and imperfections during the process of conversion, before we are converted and born again, that He waits to reveal certain types of defects and imperfection until sometime later, after we are born again.

In light of the following quote, which defects and imperfections does the Holy Spirit wait to reveal to born again believers until they are ready to overcome them?

“One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.” SC 29)

“When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new.” (TMK 247)

“There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ.” (1 S&T 246)

“He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory.” (AA 476)

“Every day hereditary tendencies to wrong will strive for the mastery. Every day you are to war against your objectionable traits of character, until there are left in you none of those things which need to be separated from you. Then you will think candidly and wisely how to take yourself to the Lord. You will foresee the evils which will come unless you change by avoiding the cause which produces the effect.” (6MR 84)

“The work of redemption involves consequences of which it is difficult for man to have any conception. ‘Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.’ 1 Cor. 2:9. As the sinner, drawn by the power of Christ, approaches the uplifted cross, and prostrates himself before it, there is a new creation. A new heart is given him. He becomes a new creature in Christ Jesus. Holiness finds that it has nothing more to require. God Himself is ‘the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.’ Rom. 3:26. And ‘whom He justified, them He also glorified.’ Rom. 8:30. Great as is the shame and degradation through sin, even greater will be the honor and exaltation through redeeming love. To human beings striving for conformity to the divine image there is imparted an outlay of heaven’s treasure, an excellency of power, that will place them higher than even the angels who have never fallen.” (COL 162)

“The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.” (6 BC 1101)

“Communion with God imparts to the soul an intimate knowledge of His will. But many who profess the faith know not what true conversion is. They have no experience in communion with the Father through Jesus Christ, and have never felt the power of divine grace to sanctify the heart. Praying and sinning, sinning and praying, their lives are full of malice, deceit, envy, jealousy, and self-love. The prayers of this class are an abomination to God.” (4T 534)

“Often the question arises, Why, then, are there so many, claiming to believe God’s word, in whom there is not seen a reformation in words, in spirit, and in character? Why are there so many who cannot bear opposition to their purposes and plans, who manifest an unholy temper, and whose words are harsh, overbearing, and passionate? There is seen in their lives the same love of self, the same selfish indulgence, the same temper and hasty speech, that is seen in the life of the worldling. There is the same sensitive pride, the same yielding to natural inclination, the same perversity of character, as if the truth were wholly unknown to them. The reason is that they are not converted. They have not hidden the leaven of truth in the heart. It has not had opportunity to do its work. Their natural and cultivated tendencies to evil have not been submitted to its transforming power. Their lives reveal the absence of the grace of Christ, an unbelief in His power to transform the character.” (COL 99, 100)

“Many are sensible of their great deficiency, and they read, and pray, and resolve, and yet make no progress. They seem to be powerless to resist temptation. The reason is, they do not go deep enough. They do not seek for a thorough conversion of the soul, that the streams which issue from it may be pure, and the deportment may testify that Christ reigns within. All defects of character originate in the heart. Pride, vanity, evil temper, and covetousness proceed from the carnal heart unrenewed by the grace of Christ. If the heart is refined, softened, and ennobled, the words and actions will testify to the fact. When the soul has been entirely surrendered to God, there will be a firm reliance upon His promises, and earnest prayer and determined effort to control the words and actions.” (OHC 336)

“Many who profess to follow Christ have not genuine religion. They do not reveal in their lives the fruit of true conversion. They are controlled by the same habits, the same spirit of fault-finding and selfishness, which controlled them before they accepted Christ. No one can enter the city of God who has not a knowledge of genuine conversion. In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within.” (RH 7-30-1901)

"You are in the greatest danger of bringing reproach upon the cause of God. Satan knows your weakness. His angels communicate your weak points to those who are deceived by his lying wonders, and they are already counting you as one of their number. Satan exults to have you pursue an unwise course because you place yourself upon his ground and give him advantage over you. He well knows that the indiscretion of men who advocate the law of God will turn souls from the truth. You have not taken upon your soul the burden of the work and labored carefully and earnestly in private to favorably impress minds in regard to the truth. You too frequently become impatient, irritable, and childish, and make yourself enemies by your abrupt manners. Unless you are on your guard, you prejudice souls against the truth. Unless you are a transformed man, and will carry out in your life the principles of the sacred truths you present in the desk, your labors will amount to but little. {3T 241, 242)

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/13/06 06:08 PM

Quote:

In light of the following quote, which defects and imperfections does the Holy Spirit wait to reveal to born again believers until they are ready to overcome them?

Mike, if you were in a dark place and a ray of light broke in through an orifice, would you see everything perfectly? Or just the things that were in the course of that ray of light? As the orifice gets bigger and bigger, your vision gets better and better.
David and Solomon had the law of God. Why were they polygamous? Slavery is a transgression of the law of God. Why did the early Christians have slaves?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 09/13/06 07:20 PM

Rosangela, one ribbon of light seeping through a small opening would only illuminate a small area.

R: David and Solomon had the law of God. Why were they polygamous? Slavery is a transgression of the law of God. Why did the early Christians have slaves?

MM: Are you suggesting that 1) they were guilty of intentionally sinning? that they were guilty of cultivating defective traits of character?

2. Or, were they sinning ignorantly? And, if so, were they also guilty of cultivating defective traits of character.

3. Is it possible to ignorantly cultivate a defective trait of character? Or, is character the result of conscious and informed and repetitious choices?

4. Is there such a thing as innocent defective traits of character?

Also, regarding the affects of “one ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ” once it penetrates the soul: I have a few questions –

5. What types of defects and deformities escape unnoticed? Which ones does the Holy Spirit wait to reveal until sometime after rebirth? And why?

“One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.” SC 29)

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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/11/05 01:30 AM

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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/11/05 08:23 PM

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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/12/05 01:26 AM

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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/12/05 05:46 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/12/05 06:48 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/12/05 07:57 PM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/12/05 11:40 PM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/13/05 03:15 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/13/05 07:08 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/13/05 08:50 PM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/13/05 09:02 PM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/14/05 08:00 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/14/05 08:32 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/14/05 10:14 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/15/05 06:12 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/14/05 09:55 PM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/15/05 12:56 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/15/05 01:41 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/15/05 02:53 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/15/05 03:48 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/15/05 06:55 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/15/05 04:19 PM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/15/05 07:14 PM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/16/05 02:43 PM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/17/05 06:31 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/16/05 08:26 PM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/16/05 09:53 PM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/17/05 12:41 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/17/05 05:14 PM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/17/05 05:23 PM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/18/05 03:27 PM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/18/05 05:38 PM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/19/05 06:47 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/19/05 06:53 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/18/05 11:43 PM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/19/05 12:07 AM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/19/05 01:53 PM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/19/05 05:38 PM

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? - 08/27/05 12:21 AM