"How to attain Christian perfection"

This is how to attain perfection, pay close attention please,

The Lord is coming. The end of all things is at hand. There remains but little time in which to develop character. Our experience, our testimony, our daily conduct, are having an influence either for good or for evil. What shall it be, henceforth? Shall we choose to humble our hearts before God? Those who constantly advance in Christian perfection, from grace to grace, are a mighty, moving force for good in this world.

Often in the silent watches of the night I think of the sufferings of Christ in our behalf. Behold the Redeemer in the Garden of Gethsemane. The thought of being separated from his Father was the burden pressing so heavily upon his soul. He felt as if he might be unable to pass through such an experience. “If it be possible,” he prayed, “let this cup pass from me.” So great was his agony that “his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.” It was for the sake of ransoming a lost world that he passed through this agony. {NPUGleaner March 23, 1910, par. 7}

If you want to learn this exercise more clearly please read my blog about Jesus dying the second death in Gethsemane.

http://redheifersbloodysweat.blogspot.com/2011/12/red-heifer.html

Though this writing is for all believers in Christ, I will be using both scripture and the inspired words from our last day prophet Mrs. Ellen G White to illustrate what our Father showed me in a vision. Please be courteous in how you respond. Thank you and enjoy.

“Have you followed him in the garden of Gethsemane? Have you seen the bloody sweat bedew the ground?” {RH July 12, 1892, par. 6}

My name is James, a member of the Seventh Day Adventist Church, a brother in Christ.

The evening of August 12th, 2009, was a perfectly beautiful night here in Elk River MN..
There's this special place next to the lake I live near that I love to go to pray and think on the closing hours of Christ’s life. Over the years I’ve had wonderfully insightful and peaceful experiences there prompting me to go more and more until it was habit, but this was a special night. I felt a peace like no other surround me and the tokens of forgiveness were so strong I couldn’t resist, so I took a deep breath and bowed to pray.

In my meditation that evening I was imagining Jesus coming into the Garden of Eden saying “Adam, where are you”, after Adam had betrayed Him and was hiding. Then I imagined Holy angels leading Adam out of the gate east of Eden because of this sin and show him what he had done to His creator.

The words of scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy help me to envision these things, and I remembered Ellen White wrote; “To Adam were revealed future important events, from his expulsion from Eden, to the Flood, and onward to the first advent of Christ upon the earth.” {SR 48.2} The angels had revealed to him the plan of salvation and encouraged him to participate so he wouldn’t have to die that day, as commanded; “in the day you eat of it you shall surely die”.

“As Adam was slaying the innocent victim" on the first altar erected outside of Eden’s Eastern Gate, "it seemed to him that he was shedding the blood of the Son of God by his own hand…pointing to the great and perfect offering of God's dear Son. There appeared a star of hope to illuminate the dark and terrible future, and relieve it of its utter hopelessness and ruin.” {SR 50.2}

I was next impressed to imagine Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane east of Jerusalem's eastern gate, as He "realized His separation from His Father in consequence of bearing man's sin”, {2T 206.1} another theme my mind had recently been drawn to prior to that night .

The Holy Spirit attested to, and I fully realized at that moment, that the angels that day had led Adam to have a 'Garden of Gethsemane experience' at the first altar outside the Eastern Gate of Eden. It also dawned on my heart that longing sympathy for Adam and his family is why Jesus loved to go, as His custom was, to the Garden of Gethsemane. I had no idea what else there was to learn from these images from scripture, but I could sense the still small voice urging me on in this line of thought, to go further in this mental picture.

In support of the divine inspiration leading to this upcoming vision and subsequent study, recently I found this;

“The garden of Eden with its foul blot of disobedience is to be carefully studied and compared with the garden of Gethsemane where the world’s Redeemer suffered superhuman agony when the sins of the whole world were rolled upon Him.” {Ms 1, 1892}

I had never read that quote before, but felt drawn to these two subjects that night in 2009, as if lured in righteousness to find a deeper comprehension. A year later I found that perfect command by our prophet to prove that it is Gods will that we compare these two events. I can tell you, finding this quote made me so excited.

While envisioning these two premises; Adam outside of Eden’s Eastern Gate and Jesus outside Jerusalem’s Eastern Gate, I was impressed that God wanted me to go further in this image. So I responded by praying, “Please Father, show me more”. Then immediately I had a vision…

I was shown Jesus on His hands and knees in the Garden of Gethsemane, covered in bloody sweat, and simultaneously saw an all Red Heifer super imposed over Him. I was privileged to be shown by our Father that Jesus fulfilled the mysterious Red Heifer sacrifice in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Every one of the commanded sacrificial offerings such as the Passover lamb, and the Atonement’s ‘goat for the Lord’, has major significance to help us peer into the life and ministry of Christ. What a wonderful experience to be shown a forgotten sacrifice illuminating an added dimension to the complete knowledge of the plan of salvation.

In the vision; Jesus was in a deep ravine, looking up and west towards Jerusalem’s Eastern Gate, in the same proximity of the first altar erected by Adam outside of Eden’s eastern gate. “Large blood drops were forced from his pores moistening the sods of Gethsemane,” {ST, 12/2/1897} and there was no immediate reply from the Father in answer to His prayers. The gates of heaven were closed to Him. He had left the heavenly city’s eastern gate, to cross into the darkness of Hades, the place of the spiritually dead, to save me from my sinful nature. He was taking my part in the second death, with evil angels pressing the guilt of all my sins upon Him, as if resurrected after the thousand years with no help from the Father, Holy Spirit or heavenly angels.

This vision was so perfectly clear. I ran home to go on-line to see everything I could about the Red Heifer in Scriptures and the Spirit of Prophecy. I knew nothing on this subject except the name, which I had read in passing with no comprehension of its fulfilled meaning.

When I got home, while my computer was warming up, I turned on my TV to what I thought was the Seventh Day Adventist TV channel ‘3 ABN’, but turned out to be another Christian cable station. To my total astonishment, they where talking about the Red Heifer! I had never even heard a sermon about it before and had never put any thought into the significance of this guilt offering/ cleansing ceremony, but all of the sudden I was surrounded by the Red Heifer image. It was so imposing, and so significant.

The program that day was from a Judeo-Christian organization, and although they helped in my knowledge historically, immediately in my heart God showed me they are wrong about their interpretation of the future. The temple does not need to be rebuilt and they do not need to find another Red Heifer, because it’s already been sacrificed in the Garden of Gethsemane.

All I had been groomed for in my walk of faith was coming to a climax, warning and guiding my thoughts, leading me to perfect truth in answer to my prayer of faith.

The scriptures at first glance have very little to say about the Red Heifer; but the Spirit of Prophecy shows where this message is hidden throughout scripture, expounding upon it, having a lot to say about her. This also fits with the ‘present truth’ element of this, most mysterious of all the sacrificial offerings. Combined, there is less than half a page in scattered Scriptures about her, but several chapters dedicated in the Spirit of Prophecy.

“Some may look upon this slaying of the (Red) heifer as a meaningless ceremony, but it was done by the command of God and bears a deep significance that has not lost its application to the present time.” {4T 122.1}

Continued on this blog....
http://redheifersbloodysweat.blogspot.com/2011/12/red-heifer.html

Excellent James. This turning to contemplate the sufferings of Christ is essential and is prophetic.

The thief on the cross attained Christian perfection in the same way Peter, Paul, and John did, namely, by confessing his sins, repenting of his sins, crucifying his old man, and embracing Jesus as his personal Savior. And then began the lifelong journey of "perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord." Unlike the others, though, the thief didn't have much time to further develop the sinless traits of character Jesus implanted in him the moment he experienced rebirth.

Brother Mark that was perfect.

Brother M&M That is correct. The thief saw Jesus right after Gethsemane still carrying the weight of sin 'till when He died on the cross still 'cut off' from the Father.

So he saw Him in our second death and empathized with Jesus, and it caused Him pain for Jesus because he knew it was because of His sins that Jesus was suffering. This is the perfect character building exercise in verity. We must 'watch' Jesus suffering for our sins.

This is how to drink the cup that He drank, the new and everlasting covenant that was offered in the upper room, confirmed in Gethsemane and executed on the cross.

In fulfillment of prophecy the disciples slept through Gethsemane and fled from the persecution, Mark ran away from Gethsemane naked (without the robe of righteousness) and Peter denied Jesus three times that night. But this is what Mrs White said about the missed opportunity in Gethsemane for all the disciples.

Please pay close attention to this quote;

"The attitude of watching is to designate the church as God's people indeed. By this sign the waiting ones are distinguished from the world and show that they are pilgrims and strangers upon the earth… This important night-watch (in Gethsemane) should have been signalized by noble mental struggles and prayers which would have brought them strength to witness the terrible agony of the Son of God. It would have prepared them, as they should behold his sufferings upon the cross, to understand something of the nature of the overpowering anguish which he endured in the garden of Gethsemane…. He was bearing the griefs of others, for on him was laid the iniquities of us all. Through divine sympathy he connects himself to man, and submits as the representative of the race to be treated as a transgressor. He looks into the abyss of woe opened for us by our sins, and proposes to bridge the gulf with his own person. Those who cannot see the force of the sacred claims of God's law cannot have a clear and definite understanding of the atonement.”
{ST, August 14, 1879 par. 10}

No where else in scripture did Jesus ever ask for the disciples to watch and pray for Him. There is something powerful that happened in Gethsemane that we do not even begin to understand.

Please meditate on this subject, I promise you will not be disappointed. In Jesus' name, Amen.

By beholding Christ, especially the closing scenes, we become Christlike.

Look and live; we are assailed by demons like vipers at our feet, and the only way to live is to keep our eyes on the serpent on the pole. They were told to watch even though a million snakes were crawling at their feet and falling from the sky by the truck load. Can you imagine? Woa!

By beholding we become changed. Jesus became 'sin for us' by taking our sins upon His head.

In the prophecy of Daniel 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. This is the moment Jesus became the serpent on the pole...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease", by being cut off.

Numbers 21:9 'So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.'

"It would be well for us to spend a thoughtful hour each day in contemplation of the life of Christ. We should take it point by point, and let the imagination grasp each scene, especially the closing ones. As we thus dwell upon His great sacrifice for us, our confidence in Him will be more constant, our love will be quickened, and we shall be more deeply imbued with His spirit. If we would be saved at last, we must learn the lesson of penitence and humiliation at the foot of the cross. {DA 83.4}

That's actually one of my favorite's M&M, Peace...

I listen to the Bible and the SOP on my iPod every day for an hour or more while walking Fiona, our sweet and precious dog. It is such a blessing.

As you know, not every Christian believes people are born again "dead to sin" and "awake to righteous". Most people I meet believe rebirth happens first and then begins a lifelong process of slowly discovering the truth and gradually overcoming sinful traits of character. Others feel everything believers think, say, and do (while abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature) is stained with sin and selfishness. The truth is, however, the moment people experience the miracle of rebirth something miraculous happens, namely, Jesus implants within them a new nature, which comes complete with a new heart, new mind, new will, new desires, new tastes, new motives, new tendencies, new appetites, new affections. Ellen wrote:


The idea that people are born again sinful and selfish is not supported in the Bible or the SOP. "All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin." {SC 59.4} The very opposite is true of people who experience real rebirth. "In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within." {RH, July 30, 1901 par. 11} "Now self is dethroned, and God reigns supreme. His life reveals the fruit of righteousness. The sins he once loved he now hates. Firmly and resolutely he follows in the path of holiness. This is genuine conversion." {HP 20.3}

There are two Baptisms, one by water and one by fire.

Some people are blessed to be prepared for both simultaneously, others it takes years. It all depends on whether we let go of the sin that besets us. Do we stay under His wings, or come and go as we please?

The Centurion that Peter was called to baptize as his first experience with gentile believers had already received the Holy Spirit before being baptized by water and this was a sign to Peter that the Gentiles were next to receive the truth.

The thief on the cross received both that day and was assured salvation.

Brother M&M;

God our wonderful Father lovingly tries to take the harmful things out of our hands, but we like children protest and say He's being mean to us and we cry and make a noise. But When we grow up, we find He was right all along. Some people grow into Christ faster than others.

James, how do you define and describe "genuine conversion"? Ellen defines and describes it this way: "Genuine conversion is transformation of character. New purposes, new moral tastes are created. Defects of character are overcome. Truth, with its sanctifying power, brings the entire man into obedience to Christ." {TSA 30.2} She also wrote:


Ellen clearly says "genuine conversion" results in people abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature and maturing in the fruits of Spirit. They are dead to sin and awake to "righteousness and true holiness." They begin at conversion where Jesus began at conception, that is, growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, "perfecting holiness" "more and more unto the perfect day."

This isn't to say they are incapable of sinning. But to do so, they must neglect or refuse to abide in Jesus, at which point they resurrect the old man and resume where they left off sinning. Repentance restores the relationship their sin severed and they resume where they left off abiding in Jesus, partaking of the divine nature, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. The idea that Jesus abides in souls half converted waiting for them to crucify self is unbiblical (not saying you believe this).

You have this point very well comprehended.

But please remember to be truly and genuinely converted, first you must receive the Spirit of Truth. No false doctrines can be held on to. Purging the guile leads to greater faith which leads to genuine conversion by witnessing Christ.

So many liberal Christians would say "as long as they know Christ they are converted" but Satan comes claiming to be Christ.

The Seventh Day Adventist Message must be received in order to receive the extra measure of oil to be fully converted for the end times. Then you can know the knowledge of the glory of the Lord.

The test is not just the Sabbath issue, but it is the sign. Other issues include the state of the dead, immortality of the soul, the sanctuary to know where to find Jesus, and how the Lord will appear in the clouds and not in the secret chambers.These understandings are a filter from lies, if they speak not according to this word there is no light in them. That is what Jesus says to us to know the wheat from the tares.

And never forget the promise of more present truth in the end, we have the right to know more about the glory of the Lord than any prophet in history while still on earth. These are they who are translated without seeing death, the 144,000. They sing the song not only of Moses, but of the Lamb who stood before the wrath of the Father without an intercessor just like they who are alive after probation. The filter is; they will not contradict the foundation messages of the end time church. Embracing our SDA history is the sign that we are prepared to advance in the truth.

John 16:13
English Standard Version (ESV)
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

The Spirit of Prophecy is the Spirit of Truth.

Short saying,if we die before a sinless perfect character is achieved, we still go to heaven, because the imputed righteousness of Christ is sufficient. Right?

The thief on the cross is a great example of what grace is.

Nothing good of his own except faith in Christ, expressed at the last moment.

And if this qualify him for heaven, then all what God wants from us is to have faith in Christ, no matter the record of our life, how evil it was, how deep we are entangled in the web of sin and the lust of the flesh, we are pardoned, forgiven and justified for heaven cause of our faith in Christ as the Son of God, our sin Redeemer and the Creator of heaven and earth.

Too many people have no faith in Christ and reject Him, it is not easy to make them believe. Thus, to have faith in Christ and believe for what he is, what he has done for us, what he prepared for us, is what God wants from us the most (John 6:28,29; John 3:36). And for that, justification unto eternal life is the free gift (Ephesians 2:8, 9).

If we must labor "the best" with all our heart and mind and time to reach sinless perfect character, where is "He justified the ungodly?"

If eternal life is a reward for a successful achievement of the sinless perfect character through a life time labor in self scarifying through power of the joint operation between the Spirit and our will, then it is no longer a free gift, but a reward indeed.

But eternal life is the free gift for every one believer, justified sinners, which is the grace of God.

James, excellent points. Thanx for sharing. Good to see you. It's been awhile. No matter how mature we become in Christ, no matter how many temptations we resist - the truth is, We are saved by grace. We cannot work our way to heaven, but we can and must allow heaven to work its way in us. Thank you, Jesus.

MM.

Please advice whether this sinless perfect character that we must achieve, is a prerequisite to enter heaven and have eternal life?

If reading sister White books and quotes you gave, it seems yes.

Meanwhile, justification and eternal life is God free gift to humanity based on what Christ had done for us that we accept and made effective through faith.

Thus, a Free gift with Christ as the focus of faith, versus a joint operation of labors between the Spirit and our will (grace + works) to attain sinless perfect character as the target, which is prerequisite to enter heaven and have eternal life.

Am I wrong?

A free gift versus hard discipline work of self sacrifyng.

Jesus as the focus of faith to make God's grace effective versus sinless perfect character as a target, which is prerequisite to enter heaven.

Free gift vs works

Jesus vs self

Am i wrong?

Yes, a sinless, perfect character is a prerequisite to enter eternal life. Otherwise Adam wouldn't have been expelled from Eden.
And yes, if we still don't have a perfect character, we inherit eternal life through the perfect character of Christ, which covers ours. But if we have been saved, we will strive each day to live more and more in harmony with God's will, to have a character more and more like Christ's character. Otherwise we haven't been saved. This is what both the Bible and Ellen White say.

1Ts 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification

Heb 12:14 Strive ... for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Take these words in deeply and you will have your answers fulfilled, peace in the name of Jesus.

"Those who at Pentecost were endued with power from on high, were not thereby freed from further temptation and trial. As they witnessed for truth and righteousness they were repeatedly assailed by the enemy of all truth, who sought to rob them of their Christian experience. They were compelled to strive with all their God-given powers to reach the measure of the stature of men and women in Christ Jesus. Daily they prayed for fresh supplies of grace, that they might reach higher and still higher toward perfection. Under the Holy Spirit’s working even the weakest, by exercising faith in God, learned to improve their entrusted powers and to become sanctified, refined, and ennobled. As in humility they submitted to the molding influence of the Holy Spirit, they received of the fullness of the Godhead and were fashioned in the likeness of the divine. {AA 49.3}
The lapse of time has wrought no change in Christ’s parting promise to send the Holy Spirit as His representative. It is not because of any restriction on the part of God that the riches of His grace do not flow earthward to men. If the fulfillment of the promise is not seen as it might be, it is because the promise is not appreciated as it should be. If all were willing, all would be filled with the Spirit. Wherever the need of the Holy Spirit is a matter little thought of, there is seen spiritual drought, spiritual darkness, spiritual declension and death. Whenever minor matters occupy the attention, the divine power which is necessary for the growth and prosperity of the church, and which would bring all other blessings in its train, is lacking, though offered in infinite plenitude. {AA 50.1}
Since this is the means by which we are to receive power, why do we not hunger and thirst for the gift of the Spirit? Why do we not talk of it, pray for it, and preach concerning it? (JSOT; Especially since He is lacking in so many) The Lord is more willing to give the Holy Spirit to those who serve Him than parents are to give good gifts to their children. For the daily baptism of the Spirit every worker should offer his petition to God. Companies of Christian workers should gather to ask for special help, for heavenly wisdom, that they may know how to plan and execute wisely. Especially should they pray that God will baptize His chosen ambassadors in mission fields with a rich measure of His Spirit. The presence of the Spirit with God’s workers will give the proclamation of truth a power that not all the honor or glory of the world could give. {AA 50.2}
With the consecrated worker for God, in whatever place he may be, the Holy Spirit abides. The words spoken to the disciples are spoken also to us. The Comforter is ours as well as theirs. The Spirit furnishes the strength that sustains striving, wrestling souls in every emergency, amidst the hatred of the world, and the realization of their own failures and mistakes. In sorrow and affliction, when the outlook seems dark and the future perplexing, and we feel helpless and alone,—these are the times when, in answer to the prayer of faith, the Holy Spirit brings comfort to the heart. {AA 51.1}
It is not a conclusive evidence that a man is a Christian because he manifests spiritual ecstasy under extraordinary circumstances. Holiness is not rapture: it is an entire surrender of the will to God; it is living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God; it is doing the will of our heavenly Father; it is trusting God in trial, in darkness as well as in the light; it is walking by faith and not by sight; it is relying on God with unquestioning confidence, and resting in His love. {AA 51.2}
It is not essential for us to be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is. Christ tells us that the Spirit is the Comforter, “the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father.” It is plainly declared regarding the Holy Spirit that, in His work of guiding men into all truth, “He shall not speak of Himself.” John 15:26; 16:13. {AA 51.3}
The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden. {AA 52.1}
The office of the Holy Spirit is distinctly specified in the words of Christ: “When He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.” John 16:8. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin. If the sinner responds to the quickening influence of the Spirit, he will be brought to repentance and aroused to the importance of obeying the divine requirements. {AA 52.2}

We are saved by faith. We are saved based on what Jesus accomplishes for us. We cannot work our way to heaven or do anything to earn eternal life. We can, however, forfeit eternal life by refusing, neglecting, or failing to cooperate with the agencies of heaven to mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit. We are born again dead to sin, awake to righteousness, "complete in" (Col 2:10) Christ. "Perfect and complete in all the will of God" (Col 4:12).

Ah, Adam was perfect and sinless for he was God direct creation. Eternal life is not a prerequisite for him unless he sinned.

Our case is different, we are sinner redeemed by Jesus atonement. Eternal life is not a prerequisite for us, because eternal life is a fee gift based on God's grace we accept and made effective through faith in Christ. This what the bible said!

Strive for holiness, yes, but not as a prerequisite for heaven, otherwise grace is no more grace. A free gift is not a prerequisite, even English is not my language and never take an English course, but at least I understand the difference.

Holiness and sinless perfect character we might obtain through a walk after the Spirit with Christ as our focus, for the target is Christ to remain in Him by faith, not the result of it, more over as a prerequisite for heaven? Isn't He the end of the law? The goal, the target? And if we sinned, He forgave all our sins.

Faith has no use if we have no love, love is greater than faith, and love is fruit of the Spirit. If love is greater than faith, it must be also greater than holiness, sinlessness. Romans 2:14-16 tell us about that.

We must strive for holiness indeed, and if we sinned, God forgave our sins, and we do not loose our salvation because of it. Romans 10:10 - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Look at the great example of grace, where a sinner was justified for heaven and eternal life, the thief on the cross never strive for holiness or sinless perfect character, but Christ justify him for heaven and eternal life, just because he had shown faith at the last moment of his life.

By grace we are saved through faith, justification for heaven and life eternal is a free gift, and if a free gift, it is not a reward for something as a prerequisite.

As long there is not a word about sinless perfect character as a prerequisite for justification to enter heaven and live eternally, I have no objection.

What the bible tell me about loosing heaven and eternal life is only when I draw back from faith (Hebrew 10:38).

When we sinned, we confess our sin and God forgave us.

Romans 10:10 - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

What you said is an example of those who has no faith in Christ, and live for self.

But a faithful believer is also a sinner justified because of his faith, when he sinned, confess, and he will be forgiven without loosing his salvation.

James, it's not a prerequisite for heaven. Ellen White never said that. It's the evidence that heaven is in your heart. And yes, the moment the thief on the cross was justified and born again, his life, which consisted of just a few hours, was different.

Speaking about Wesley after his conversion, Ellen White says:

Sorry Brother Septenno and sister Rosangelina but there is something wrong with your statements.

"Their Christian character must be without a blemish, or they will be pronounced unfit to be taken to a holy heaven, to dwell with pure, sinless beings in God’s everlasting kingdom." {ApM 29.2}

Here is the power of forgiveness... pay close attention please.

"Then Jesus “lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.” The accusers saw that Jesus not only knew the secrets of their past sins, but was acquainted with their purpose in bringing this case before him, and had in his matchless wisdom defeated their deeply laid scheme. They now became fearful lest Jesus would expose their guilt to all present, and they therefore “being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last; and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.” {2SP 350.2}
There was not one of her accusers but was more guilty than the conscience-stricken woman who stood trembling with shame before him. After the Pharisees had hastily left the presence of Christ, in their guilty consternation, he arose and looked upon the woman, saying, “Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee. Go, and sin no more.” {2SP 351.1}
Jesus did not palliate sin nor lessen the sense of crime; but he came not to condemn; he came to lead the sinner to eternal life. The world looked upon this erring woman as one to be slighted and scorned; but the pure and holy Jesus stooped to address her with words of comfort, encouraging her to reform her life. Instead of to condemn the guilty, his work was to reach into the very depths of human woe and degradation, lift up the debased and sinful, and bid the trembling penitent to “sin no more.” When the woman stood before Jesus, cowering under the accusation of the Pharisees and a sense of the enormity of her crime, she knew that her life was trembling in the balance, and that a word from Jesus would add fuel to the indignation of the crowd, so that they would immediately stone her to death. {2SP 351.2}
Her eyes droop before the calm and searching glance of Christ. Stricken with shame, she is unable to look upon that holy countenance. As she thus stands waiting for sentence to be passed upon her, the words fall upon her astonished ears that not only deliver her from her accusers, but send them away convicted of greater crimes than hers. After they are gone, she hears the mournfully solemn words: “Neither do I condemn thee. Go, and sin no more.” Her heart melts with penitential grief; and, with gratitude to her Deliverer, she bows at the feet of Jesus, sobbing out in broken accents the emotions of her heart, and confessing her sins with bitter tears. {2SP 352.1}

This is how to attain the perfection of character that permits us to enter the kingdom of heaven. To recognize our unworthiness and repent before the MERCY of Jesus. Then He enters our hearts and makes us His own, implanting His righteousness and faith. Thus we are seen as Christ before the Father and permitted into heaven in His name.

More biblical support of Jesus admonishing us to live sinless lives, before entrance to heaven.

John 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.”

On this point most people look at this in the wrong way. Jesus was not saying for Mary or the blind man to go out and in their own strength try to not sin. He was in every sense of the matter speaking the power to overcome sin in their lives into existence.

The words of Jesus have creative power, they have the power to create, to recreate, and to sustain things in their paths without His direct attention.

So when Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48) He was in no wise saying we should do this in our own strength, but was speaking the power to do so into existence for each of us. Our duty is not to fight against His reproof and admonishment but to submit to His counsel and authority.

They were compelled to strive with all their God-given powers to reach the measure of the stature of men and women in Christ Jesus. Daily they prayed for fresh supplies of grace, that they might reach higher and still higher toward perfection. Under the Holy Spirit’s working even the weakest, by exercising faith in God, learned to improve their entrusted powers and to become sanctified, refined, and ennobled. As in humility they submitted to the molding influence of the Holy Spirit, they received of the fullness of the Godhead and were fashioned in the likeness of the divine. {AA 49.3}

JSOT,

When James Saptenno refers to a "prerequisite for heaven," I understand he is referring to what EGW calls "our title to heaven." Of course the Bible is clear that "without sanctification no one will see the Lord."

Yes, a sinless, perfect character is a prerequisite to enter eternal life vs holiness is not a prerequisite for heaven.

Are they not the same? Holiness (without which no one can see the Father)- sinless perfect character, without which no one qualified for heaven (to see the Father).

But according to Angela, one is a prerequisite and the other one is not.

How about this?
Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

When eternal life from a gift becoming a reward and freely given based on faith is added with a prerequisite status a believer must achieve in his life which is a perfect sinless character?

Whatever labor needed to achieve a life status as you said (sinless perfect character or holiness) which is a prerequisite to enter heaven, to see the Father because it is a reward for your hard work of self denying, it is no longer a GIFT, but indeed a reward of works even though it is a joint operation works of the Spirit and your own will. And that view is not of the Bible.

That's why so many people accusing us teaching grace + work.

And on what base is there a discrimination between the thief on the cross and all other believers, as you have mentioned?

Yes, sure! Sin no more! Jesus has a solid ground to say that, otherwise he is not Jesus. But he never said that to sin no more is a prerequisite to enter heaven and live eternally.

What he said is more as an advice to any believer, for he knew that sinner under 6,000 years dominion of sin has a very strong tendency toward sin, as the sin is in them and dominated them, and for this He has paid our sins, not for us to strive for not to sin as a prerequisite to enter heaven and live eternally, but to justify sinner who believe Him. The thief on the cross is the great example.

Who gave the right to built a discrimination on what happen with the thief will not happen with us?

So, Sister EGW taught that! What can I say, as an SDA I will not object her although I disagree with that, for the Bible say different. And since she said that her writings is a lesser light to bring us to the greater light of understanding the bible, I will choose the greater light to led my way. Except I have been proven wrong.

Can a believer achieve a perfect sinless character without blemish?

According to my study, here what Paul said:

Romans 7:9 (NLT) At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, 10 and I died.

He said later, Philippians 3:6
New Living Translation (NLT)
6 I was so zealous that I harshly persecuted the church. And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault.

As a Pharisee he was perfect in keeping the law.

That one time he mentioned in Romans 7:9, he clarified later in Philippians 3:6. He thought he was perfect and blameless in his righteousness according to the law. But, seems not like that. Now, after knowing Christ he knew the sin in him and his imperfect righteousness.

Later on he said again:
1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief (in present tense).

When he wrote this, he was nearly at the end of his life, and still he said "he is the chief of sinners."

So, logically, after knowing Jesus and reborn again as His believer, according to your ideas here, he will have no problem in reaching a sinless perfect character state, for now led by the Spirit, what his righteousness ever was, is now perfect, and fulfill the righteous demand of the law completely.

Where is the claim that with the joint operation of the Spirit and his will, he might reached a perfect sinless state without blemish? Instead he said "he is still a sinner" despite all of his own teaching regarding perfection.

Therefore I conclude, as Paul said:
Philippians 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

And this righteousness is a free gift:
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

We all come short of the glory of God, which means we never can attain a character that is his glory,i.e.: holiness, love, righteousness.

But because of that, justification is unconditional except by faith.

Justification is unconditional except by faith, and the only thing a man can stumbled upon and lost his gift of justification unto eternal life, is when he draw back from faith.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Even the wage of sin is death, and we can't stop sinning, but in Christ God forgave all our sins when we confess, and as long we remain in Christ by faith, we remain saved, and will not loose our life.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1 John 5:11
King James Version (KJV)
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Thus, a perfect sinless character without blemish is a prerequisite for justification to enter heaven and live eternally, seems in contradiction with what I thought.

You wrote, "What you said is an example of those who has no faith in Christ, and live for self." I'm sorry my post led you to conclude I believe such a terrible thing. My apologies. Actually, I believe the fruit of rebirth is salvation, pardon, and "righteousness and true holiness".

Ephesians
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This is where you are wrong and prove you are not sanctified. This can be corrected and do not think I am being aggressive towards you, which is not my intention, only to serve our perfect Christ Jesus.

It is possible to stop sinning as proven by Enoch and Elijah who would have never been allowed to enter heaven while still alive if what you say is correct.

"A few in every generation from Adam resisted his (Satan's) every artifice and stood forth as noble representatives of what it was in the power of man to do and to be, while Christ should co-operate with human efforts, to help man in overcoming the power of Satan. Enoch and Elijah are the correct representatives of what the race might be through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Satan was greatly disturbed because these noble, holy men were untainted amid the moral pollution surrounding them, perfecting righteous characters, and accounted worthy for translation to heaven. As they had stood forth in moral power, in noble uprightness, overcoming Satan’s temptations, he could not bring them under the dominion of death. He triumphed that he had power to overcome Moses with his temptations, and that he could mar his illustrious character and lead him to the sin of taking to himself glory before the people which belonged to God." {Con 26.1}

"In order to let Jesus into our hearts, we must stop sinning. {ST March 3, 1890, par. 3}

"Many bemoan the disobedience of Adam, which resulted in bringing sin, suffering, and death, into the world. Surely, such should cease to transgress. But instead of doing better themselves than Adam did, they follow a course of transgression, thereby increasing the tide of woe. But let the children of Adam, who have the example of their father before them with all its terrible results, stop sinning, instead of complaining of their father, while they themselves are doing worse than he did. {HR December 1, 1872, par. 8}

It IS possible to stop sinning. I love everyone in Christ and I do not wish to argue for arguments sake but for righteousness sake. Peace.

Brother James, please pay close attention to this because you are loved, only misled.

"By the translation of Enoch the Lord designed to teach an important lesson. There was danger that men would yield to discouragement because of the fearful results of Adam’s sin. Many were ready to exclaim, “What profit is it that we have feared the Lord and have kept His ordinances, since a heavy curse is resting upon the race, and death is the portion of us all?” Satan was urging upon men the belief that there was no reward for the righteous or punishment of the wicked, and that it was impossible for men to obey the divine statutes. But in the case of Enoch, God shows what He will do for those who keep His commandments. Men were taught that it is possible to obey the law of God, that they were able by grace to resist temptation and become pure and holy. His translation was an evidence of the truth of his prophecy concerning the hereafter, with its award of immortal life to the obedient and of condemnation and death to the transgressor. {EP 49.3}

Did you catch it? Did you see? "Satan was urging upon men the belief... that it was impossible for men to obey the divine statutes".

This is why God told me to tell you, the words you said prove you are not with Him, or un-sanctified because Satan says it is impossible to stop sinning.

By faith Enoch “was translated that he should not see death, ... for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” Hebrews 11:5. The godly character of this prophet represents the state of holiness which must be attained by those who shall be “redeemed from the earth” (Revelation 14:3) at Christ’s second advent. Then, as before the Flood, iniquity will prevail. Men will rebel against the authority of Heaven. But like Enoch, God’s people will seek for purity of heart and conformity to His will, until they shall reflect the likeness of Christ. Like Enoch they will warn the world of the Lord’s second coming and by their holy example will condemn the sins of the ungodly. As Enoch was translated to heaven, so the living righteous will be translated from the earth before its destruction by fire. See 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. {EP 49.4}

Since Jesus is at the door, and we are the generation who will see Him coming in the clouds, we better be without sin when He comes.

I will clarify my view point, it is not that I disagree with any bible quotes regarding sanctification, holiness, do not sin, etc, but i think this is not a status which is a prerequisite for a justification to enter heaven and eternal life. If any one can achieve a status where he/she doesn't sin any longer and perfect in their character without blemish, without stain whatsoever, praise God, but if not, it doesn't unqualified him/her for heaven.

Tell me, how do you stop sinning and attain a perfect sinless character. What is the formula? Does your will involve or not? Do you deny self (the lust of the flesh) or not? Although your victory over the flesh is the work of the Spirit, but it is also because you align your will with what the Spirit desire, and you disciplined your flesh to a standard as according to the Scripture.

So, if justification to enter heaven and live eternally is a reward for you 'cause you passed the judgment based on a life status that you had reach (sinless perfect character) which is a prerequisite, then I think, you might boast for your works, for you have a share in this work in saving yourself.

But the Scripture said, eternal life is a gift, justification is a gift. What else do we need? Faith alone.

Christ imputed righteousness is what Christ did for you, a gift. But Christ imparted righteousness, is what you did through the power of the Spirit, and if this become a prerequisite for justification to enter heaven and live eternally, then it is a cooperation work of your will and the Spirit, it is no longer a gift but a reward indeed, a reward for your works, even how small your share is, but you did work.

You must have a good source of Scripture quotes to prove it, because it denies the first. If using sister EGW quotes, who can accept that except SDA's?

Enoch and Elijah was an example of end time condition:
Rev. 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Why should we worry about that?
All believers who lived by faith, will be justified by faith, just then they will continue living righteously without sinning, because God had closed the door of probation, how can they sin? Satan has no power to temp and the flesh lost it power also, but does they have a perfect body, do they still need a transformation at Christ 2nd coming? The Scripture said yes.

James, this is simple, and I don't know why you are complicating it. Justification is our title to heaven, and justification is by faith. If, however, faith is not followed by good works, it is false, and not true. So, without good works nobody will enter heaven - not because of the good works in themselves, but because the lack of good works shows that you did not have a genuine faith in the first place.
The thief on the cross sure had the good works as proof of his faith. He certainly had the fruit of the Spirit - love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

1 John 3

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Please take a good look at this verse Brother. You need to get intimate with this verse. You WILL be tested on this later.

Does it say we will keep sinning in this life if we are in Christ? The moment Adam sinned he lost everything. What little value we place on the life of Christ when we say sin is insignificant.

When we are IN CHRIST we do not sin, but the moment we take our eyes off Christ we are already preparing the way to sin. When we sin, we lose the covering of Christs righteousness and need to repent, then we are led to see the result to strengthen our hatred of sin. But is it guaranteed for us to get back to that perfect state of forgiveness? God will never forsake us, but when we justify sin we forsake Him. How many never desire to come back from falls but become content with living in the Grey area between grace and hell?

Remember your first love, your first moments with Jesus.

God uses our falls to teach us about His love, but He does not condone justifying sin, it makes us vulnerable to being assailed by Satan. But more significantly, God is connected to our hearts when we confess the name of His Son, we are then written in the book of Life. Every time we sin it hurts Jesus because in real time, He is in heaven and in your heart simultaneously and we push Him out to get our way, and this angers the Father. We are His people and are supposed to be reflecting His image to the world, but if we stay in the wounded condition we subject ourselves to, we never reach our full potential. The power is right there waiting for us to get us above all of that. Remember your FIRST MOMENTS IN CHRIST and trust in Him from now on and you will not sin.

Think about this the next time you sin, "I just cut myself off from the Creators Spirit and hurt His heart". He is still there for you, but you just did something more damaging than Adam eating the forbidden fruit. Before the fall Adam had not seen Jesus suffer and die. In our hearts, we have.

So what excuse do we have to present to the Father that we chose to continue doing things that would put His Son to death again?

And to answer questions that always arise in this conversation.

When I am at peace in the Spirit of God He is perfect in me. When I am not at peace, I place myself on Satan's ground, outside the camp.

But our Lord has shown us the path of redemption. First we MUST repent, then accept the power of forgiveness and receive our first love back. When we are there Satan cannot touch us. This is perfection in the faith Of Christ.

When the Lord led me to Him through His word, teaching me about the Sabbath before I had even heard about the SDA church, THAT DAY, I was perfectly forgiven by God and I received the gift of grace with pure joy and His Holiness.

I literally was fighting with the Holy Spirit in my heart to commit sin the couple of days later when the first temptation showed up naked at my front door. Do you know what I mean? This is when we lose it. But we must get back to that sweet savor of forgiveness. Walk in that power and He will NEVER leave you. Say it doesn't matter and you prove you are not there.

I think, you are justifying yourself.

Do you believe the thief on the cross has the fruit of the Spirit?

This idea has no basic and is not logic. He has nothing except faith in Christ. He knew nothing about Christ, just believe at the last moment. But because of his faith he is justified for heaven.

Good works is fruit of the Spirit, but is doesn't add anything to Christ finished work, and if sinless perfect character is fruit of the Spirit, it doesn't become also a prerequisite for heaven.

Justification to eternal life is a gift, that is what the Bible said, and a gift is not a reward, otherwise gift is not a gift. A reward may have some requirements as a prerequisite to receive it. But a gift needs acceptance, which is by faith, which is also a gift.

Al men is justified for heaven, for there is no other righteousness that qualify a sinner for heaven except Christ righteousness, therefore it is a gift, made effective through faith.

When we take our eyes off Christ and sinned, does we also the same time expel him out from our heart?

He said He will come into our heart and sit and eat with us, only when we expel Him out of our hearts He has no choice but to leave us, although He said he will never leave us, this mean His Spirit is still in us and work in us to bring us back to repentance.

So, sinning doesn't make you lost the GIFT from God, only when you lost your faith completely and ignore the GIFT, you will lost your eternal life.

And if we sin, there is always forgiveness abundantly, if you confess your sin and repent.

Therefore, Christ imputed righteousness fit exactly in our situation and condition, a sinner that can just do sin. And there is nothing we could offer to God, except our sins and our faith in Christ.

Not for nothing is said "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" and "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God".

So, forget about a perfect sinless character as a prerequisite to enter heaven for eternal life, it is not supported by the bible.

1. Yes. Saving "faith" is a fruit of the Spirit.
2. He nearly believed in Jesus early on but Barabbas misled him. See DA.
3. Yes, the fruit of the Spirit does not add to Jesus' salvation work. But to say it isn't a "prerequisite for heaven" is like saying being a mango isn't a prerequisite for fruit.

By all means!


The fruit "faithfulness" is the same as "faith," so as Mike said above, he had the fruit of the Spirit. The moment I was justified all the fruit of the Spirit sprang in my heart. Love - Don't you think He loved Christ? Joy - Don't you think he had joy? Peace - Don't you think he felt in peace? The fruit are evidences that you've been saved. If you don't possess them, you haven't been saved.

Mike, good points. Thank you.

Brother James,

Think about this would you, and I repeat seriously, think about this...

When Jesus addressed the words Peter spoke as SATAN, was Jesus still in His heart?

Is there room for both Jesus and the Devil in our hearts?

There is a reason that the word calls it POSSESSION!

It was in denying the words of God that allowed Satan to come between him and his master. Faith is accepting and depending on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. So when we lose our faith through denying god's word we become citizens of Hell whether you want to believe it or not.

"When Christ revealed to Peter the time of trial and suffering that was just before Him, and Peter replied, “Be it far from Thee, Lord: this shall not be unto Thee” (Matthew 16:22), the Saviour commanded, “Get thee behind me, Satan” (Matthew 16:23). Satan was speaking through Peter, making him act the part of the tempter. Satan’s presence was unsuspected by Peter, but Christ could detect the presence of the deceiver, and in His rebuke to Peter He addressed the real foe. {2SM 353.1}
On one occasion, speaking to the twelve, and referring to Judas, Christ declared, “One of you is a devil” (John 6:70). Often in the days of His earthly ministry the Saviour met His adversary in human form, when Satan as an unclean spirit took possession of men. Satan takes possession of the minds of men today. In my labors in the cause of God, I have again and again met those who have been thus possessed, and in the name of the Lord I have rebuked the evil spirit. {2SM 353.2}
It is not by force that Satan takes possession of the human mind. While men sleep, the enemy sows tares in the church. While men are spiritually sleeping, the enemy accomplishes his work of iniquity. It is when his subject “understandeth it not” (Matthew 13:19) that he catcheth away the good seed sown in the heart. When men and women are in this condition, when their spiritual life is not being constantly fed by the Spirit of God, Satan can imbue them with his spirit, and lead them to work his works {2SM 353.3}
I entreat that there may be a putting away from the life every action which does not bear the approval of God. We are drawing near to the close of earth’s history; the battle is growing daily more fierce.—Letter 244, 1907. {2SM 353.4}

There is always a battle within us, between the Spirit and the flesh (I), which is from Satan.

Do you believe sinners, the bad one has been forgotten by God? Do you believe there is no Spirit whatsoever working in a sinner, a murderer, the bad one? You are dead wrong!

Christ came to save sinners! He will never leave our hearts who believe in Him no matter how deep we fell in the web of sin.

I'm sorry, I don't see what you say is in the thief heart.

When he asked Christ for not to forget him, Jesus answer was a promise. Did he believe Christ is the Son of God? His Redeemer? While Christ can't save himself.

If he was drawn to Christ by the Spirit, all what he has is HOPE.

How can he have joy? Love? Kindness? Forbearance? Etc.

All what he has is HOPE and a little faith, but enough to save him.

Yes, faith he has, but to say he has ALL fruit of the Spirit, I don't believe that, because there is no basic for thinking this.

So, for you is: Faith + Works to be saved?

So you are saying that after Jesus enters into our hearts, and we stand justified in the name of the Father, there is more perfection that comes? You are completely wrong about this.

When the Roman Centurion sent for Peter to baptize him and his household they already had the fruits of the Spirit. It was this point that caused Peter to later realize that he was wrong to believe that the Jews had more to offer than the gentiles in Christ. (see next entry, below)

Sanctification is learning how to WALK in forgiveness, not to continually go back to sinning.

The Justified ex-thief was tested after that moment before he died, but he remained in faith. It is all about remaining in the faith of Jesus and not being lured into sin or disbelief.

We have no good thing within ourselves, when Jesus enters, at that moment we are perfect in the eyes of God. We need to be continually cleansed every time we sin, this is sanctification. It is better that we do not sin.

In other words learning to not sin is sanctification which happens simultaneously with Justification but we must remain in faith and not sin, if we continue to sin we must be cleansed again and this process is sanctification or being set apart from sin. The spirit of prophecy says we do not have to go through a continual process of sanctification if we remain and do not sin. BUT if we do sin we have an advocate.

So were in all of this would the fruits come? Do not confuse the fruits with the gifts. Fruits are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. This is the heart of Jesus that leads us to repent. The thief had ALL OF THESE at that moment, just like every person who has EVER been converted.

The gifts are; healing, prophecies etc... God can see our hearts, and He knows how well we will remain, if we do not have the full conviction then He will not entrust great gifts to us until we are fully sanctified. This process is confused by many like you brother James to believe that men like the converted thief would not have the fruits, but Jesus said he did, or he would not have exclaimed that he would be with Him in paradise.

From the Jerusalem council, held because some Jews were insisting the gentiles be circumcised and keep the mosaic law...

Acts 15
5 ... some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.

What did the bible said:
2 Peter 1:
4 Thereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises, that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And besides this, using all diligence, add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge,
6 and to knowledge temperance, and to temperance patience, and to patience godliness,
7 and to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Perfection is still to come.

so, the thief on the cross has nothing else except his sins, deadly sins and a little faith.

For that he was justified, and if he is permitted to live longer, he will learn to live by faith, and there are a lot to be add to his new character, many things.

To live with faith is to live without covetous desires, and if without this, what desires is in you? Only one, the desire of the Spirit, and what is that? Life and peace (Romans 8:6).

Thus, where is that holiness as a prerequisite to enter heaven and live eternally? Where is that sinless perfect character as a prerequisite to enter heaven and live eternally?

You reach this state because of faith alone, and faith is a gift, so everything is a gift, including justification to enter heaven and live eternally.

But shifting the focus from Christ (faith) to self (perfect sinless state as a target), is adding works to faith, even the works of the Spirit, and this is against bible teaching, for it changes what is a gift to become a reward.

It's funny brother. I've been to Indonesia several times. My wife is from Bandung, and Since you live in Jakarta if you have been to any of the SDA churches there in the past couple of years I have probably stood in the same room as you and may have even met you. But the strange this is, what you teach and what I've heard from those wonderful pastors and men of faith over there is completely different.

Are you a true Seventh Day Adventist, or are you here to be a distraction?

Oh really, just a little faith and his sins still on him eh?

I guess you haven't read about how his prayer was the only comfort given to Jesus while He was on the cross and that prayer swept away the Pain for a brief moment for the Son of God.

A little faith? You do not know the truth.

"To Jesus in His agony on the cross there came one gleam of comfort. It was the prayer of the penitent thief. Both the men who were crucified with Jesus had at first railed upon Him; and one under his suffering only became more desperate and defiant. But not so with his companion. This man was not a hardened criminal; he had been led astray by evil associations, but he was less guilty than many of those who stood beside the cross reviling the Saviour. He had seen and heard Jesus, and had been convicted by His teaching, but he had been turned away from Him by the priests and rulers. Seeking to stifle conviction, he had plunged deeper and deeper into sin, until he was arrested, tried as a criminal, and condemned to die on the cross. In the judgment hall and on the way to Calvary he had been in company with Jesus. He had heard Pilate declare, “I find no fault in Him.” John 19:4. He had marked His godlike bearing, and His pitying forgiveness of His tormentors. On the cross he sees the many great religionists shoot out the tongue with scorn, and ridicule the Lord Jesus. He sees the wagging heads. He hears the upbraiding speeches taken up by his companion in guilt: “If Thou be Christ, save Thyself and us.” Among the passers-by he hears many defending Jesus. He hears them repeat His words, and tell of His works. The conviction comes back to him that this is the Christ. Turning to his fellow criminal he says, “Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?” The dying thieves have no longer anything to fear from man. But upon one of them presses the conviction that there is a God to fear, a future to cause him to tremble. And now, all sin-polluted as it is, his life history is about to close. “And we indeed justly,” he moans; “for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this Man hath done nothing amiss.” {DA 749.3}
There is no question now. There are no doubts, no reproaches. When condemned for his crime, the thief had become hopeless and despairing; but strange, tender thoughts now spring up. He calls to mind all he has heard of Jesus, how He has healed the sick and pardoned sin. He has heard the words of those who believed in Jesus and followed Him weeping. He has seen and read the title above the Saviour’s head. He has heard the passers-by repeat it, some with grieved, quivering lips, others with jesting and mockery. The Holy Spirit illuminates his mind, and little by little the chain of evidence is joined together. In Jesus, bruised, mocked, and hanging upon the cross, he sees the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. Hope is mingled with anguish in his voice as the helpless, dying soul casts himself upon a dying Saviour. “Lord, remember me,” he cries, “when Thou comest into Thy kingdom.” {DA 750.1}
Quickly the answer came. Soft and melodious the tone, full of love, compassion, and power the words: Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with Me in paradise. {DA 750.2}
For long hours of agony, reviling and mockery have fallen upon the ears of Jesus. As He hangs upon the cross, there floats up to Him still the sound of jeers and curses. With longing heart He has listened for some expression of faith from His disciples. He has heard only the mournful words, “We trusted that it had been He which should have redeemed Israel.” How grateful then to the Saviour was the utterance of faith and love from the dying thief! While the leading Jews deny Him, and even the disciples doubt His divinity, the poor thief, upon the brink of eternity, calls Jesus Lord. Many were ready to call Him Lord when He wrought miracles, and after He had risen from the grave; but none acknowledged Him as He hung dying upon the cross save the penitent thief who was saved at the eleventh hour. {DA 750.3}
The bystanders caught the words as the thief called Jesus Lord. The tone of the repentant man arrested their attention. Those who at the foot of the cross had been quarreling over Christ’s garments, and casting lots upon His vesture, stopped to listen. Their angry tones were hushed. With bated breath they looked upon Christ, and waited for the response from those dying lips. {DA 751.1}
As He spoke the words of promise, the dark cloud that seemed to enshroud the cross was pierced by a bright and living light. To the penitent thief came the perfect peace of acceptance with God. Christ in His humiliation was glorified. He who in all other eyes appeared to be conquered was a Conqueror. He was acknowledged as the Sin Bearer. Men may exercise power over His human body. They may pierce the holy temples with the crown of thorns. They may strip from Him His raiment, and quarrel over its division. But they cannot rob Him of His power to forgive sins. In dying He bears testimony to His own divinity and to the glory of the Father. His ear is not heavy that it cannot hear, neither His arm shortened that it cannot save. It is His royal right to save unto the uttermost all who come unto God by Him. {DA 751.2}

Perfect peace with God, do you have that? Are you there Brother? He acquired more faith in one day than most people will in a lifetime. You do not know the truth.

The moment he was at peace with the Father He no longer had ANY sins on him. None.

He would have been tested if let off the cross, but this does not mean he had to go back to sinning either, and for you to assume he would proves how little faith you have in the sustaining power of the word of God.

The fact that men call him the "thief on the cross", and not the "penitent thief" speaks volumes.

A good story, thank you!

But we should hold to the greater light than the lesser light, right?

Matthew 27:44 - The thieves also, who were crucified with Him, cast the same in His teeth.

Matthew 27:44
Amplified Bible (AMP)
44 And the robbers who were crucified with Him also abused and reproached and made sport of Him in the same way.

There are too many LEGALIST in our church.

Faith + works as a prerequisite to enter heaven, they taught everywhere which is subtle legalism.

James Saptenno, since the fruit of the Spirit is the fruit of faith doesn't it stand to reason good works are inevitable?

I don't hear you quoting anything from scripture that would contradict what Mrs White saw in the Spirit, yet you are immediately discounting what she said that God showed her? So are you saying you have the greater understanding? You have totally exposed yourself. I will contact people from Indonesia and ask who you are. My wife doesn't know you and she was treasurer for the Ebenhazer church for years and worked with the president of the University.

The men I met over there brought tears to my eyes for their love of God and you call them legalistic? Generalizing everyone else like you are the only person to get it right? You are NOT a true Seventh Day Adventist.

Ellen White was inspired by God, she saw things inspired directly from God's heart, to her mind through the Holy Spirit, if you do not believe this, WHY ARE YOU HERE?

She did say this in that writing,

"Both the men who were crucified with Jesus had at first railed upon Him; and one under his suffering only became more desperate and defiant. But not so with his companion."

So why do you assume this contradicts what you just quoted?

We are saved individually, right? Not as a congregation. So, no matter what they teach, I have my own study.

Why I am here? Of course to study the Scripture with all of you here, your views, opinions, etc. And it is not all in agreements, right?

And why if i disagree with sister EGW, does that make me have a better view than her? Does that make me have a greater insight than her?

I am not afraid of disagreeing with some one, even God.

That is my free will choice.

MM.

The only thing I disagree if a sinless perfect state is a stage a believer must achieve as a PREREQUISITE to enter heaven and have eternal life. I don't believe this, even I must disagree with EGW.

Fruit of the Spirit is the fruit of faith, it is an acknowledgment, agreement and the act of faith in Christ.

It is not our work, but God (Phil. 2:13).

Thus, everything is a gift from God; faith, the Spirit, the works, justification, eternal life, heaven, which is all "in Christ" as a nutshell.

So, whatever result to us (sinless perfect state, holiness), is a GIFT not a REWARD, is FREE not a PREREQUISITE.

Therefore, all what is need from us human being to make these gifts which is already ours but kept "in Christ", is to believe the Scripture and accept Christ by faith, then you accept all these gifts at then end, if you maintain your faith in Him, for only if you withdrew from faith you will lost all these gifts (Hebrew 10:38).

So, according to me, Christ is the focus of my faith, and not a state as a target for having a reward.

I don't mind my "works", for it is polluted with "self", but i know I have Christ that is always ready and willing to forgive my sins, and he has done that before hand at the cross, what is asked from me is confessions and believe (Romans 10:9; 1 John 1:9).

Will I reach that stage of sinless perfect state? I'm not worrying about that, for I'm saved by His grace through faith which is a free gift.

She spoke with the perfect will of God who motivated her to 'work' by warning us through the Spirit of Prophecy.

******* STAFF EDIT *******

Works are doing the will of the Father while under the influence of the Holy Spirit, so if you don't have works it is a sign that you don't have the Holy Spirit.

******* STAFF EDIT *******

The whole purpose of the receiving of the Holy Spirit IS to WORK! To save hearts from the second death.

Good points. Thank you. I like the way you emphasize the fact nothing Jesus accomplishes in and through us (fruits of the Spirit) adds to what He accomplishes for us (pardon, salvation, eternal life).

You wrote "everything is a gift from God . . . the works". Amen! It is God who empowers believers to manifest the fruits of the Spirit (good works). "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Such faith and works are sinless, perfect.

You asked, "Will I reach that stage of sinless perfect state?" You already have. "Christ in you, the hope of glory." Sinless perfection isn't something you earn or achieve. Like everything else, it is a gift. So long as you are abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature you are perfectly sinless. "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not."

You wrote, "The only thing I disagree if a sinless perfect state is a stage a believer must achieve as a PREREQUISITE to enter heaven and have eternal life." The point is moot. Sinless perfection is inevitable. You can't have one without the other. Faith and works are inseparable. It's part of the package.

You understand my viewpoint, thank you.

Even the point is moot, but I held to the point view in Titus 2:11-14, which is God's will and works in me as according to Phil 2:13, not "my works."

My "works" is as according to Isaiah 64:6; Romans 7:14-24; Romans 3:23.

So, I believe, there is no faith + works to be justified, as according to Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 3:21-28.

If what is "works" is fruit of the Spirit, it is a consequence of putting faith in Christ and His Gospel, it is "inevitable."

Finally, there is no such a PREREQUISITE state to be justified.

"In Christ" is the complete salvation done at the cross, if we remain "in Christ" by faith, the GIFT of justification, sanctification, glorification and eternal life remains ours.

Thus, the only difference between me and you all who held to the principle of a sinless perfect stage as a prerequisite to be justified for entering heaven and eat the fruit of life is,

You:
Perfect sinless character is a must, not one single weakness, stain or spot might remain in a believer for his fitness for heaven. This stage is a Prerequisite for the FINAL justification based on works as according to the law. Therefore, believers must work hard, disciplined their bodies and minds to fulfill the righteous demands of the law, with the power of the Spirit, hence, a joint operation work. They stand at the judgment in their "own righteousness."

Me:
When the individual door of Probation closed, faithful believers got their sinless perfect character, and at Glorification, they got their sinless perfect body at transformation. It is all gifts from God. Whatever stain of character remain and less perfect, is perfected by God. At the judgment they stand in "Christ Righteousness" which is their fitness for heaven. The grace of God till the end, for those who remain "in Christ" by faith. For truly, eternal life is just a gift already ours believers and non believers, just made effective through faith in Christ, for justification. Thus, a sinless perfect state is not a prerequisite for justification to enter heaven.

Do you believe God will made perfect those believers who are imperfect? Or do you believe we must perfect? Is the same saying, do you believe God's grace through Christ is sufficient for eternal life, or do you believe it is not sufficient?

From your reply above, where is your view that sinless perfect character is a prerequisite for justification to enter heaven? I don't see it. Can you clarify, why it becomes a prerequisite?

I didn't mean to say or imply sinlessness is a "prerequisite for justification to enter heaven". The fact it is a reality doesn't add to what Jesus accomplishes for us. Although faith and works are inseparable, neither one add to what Jesus accomplishes for us.

"Through faith we receive the grace of God; but faith is not our Saviour. It earns nothing. It is the hand by which we lay hold upon Christ, and appropriate His merits, the remedy for sin. {DA 175.4}

"There is nothing in faith that makes it our saviour. Faith cannot remove our guilt. Christ is the power of God unto salvation to all them that believe. The justification comes through the merits of Jesus Christ. He has paid the price for the sinner's redemption. Yet it is only through faith in His blood that Jesus can justify the believer. {RC 78.4}

******* POST CONTENT REMOVED AS IT REPLIED DIRECTLY TO AN EDITED POST *******

The only difference between me and you all who held to the principle of a sinless perfect stage as a prerequisite to be justified for entering heaven and eat the fruit of life is,

You:
Perfect sinless character is a must, not one single weakness, stain or spot might remain in a believer for his fitness for heaven. This stage is a Prerequisite for the FINAL justification based on works as according to the law. Therefore, believers must work hard, disciplined their bodies and minds to fulfill the righteous demands of the law, with the power of the Spirit, hence, a joint operation work. They stand at the judgment in their "own righteousness."

Me:
When the individual door of Probation closed, faithful believers got their sinless perfect character, and at Glorification, they got their sinless perfect body at transformation. It is all gifts from God. Whatever stain of character remain and less perfect, is perfected by God. At the judgment they stand in "Christ Righteousness" which is their fitness for heaven. The grace of God till the end, for those who remain "in Christ" by faith. For truly, eternal life is just a gift already ours believers and non believers, just made effective through faith in Christ, for justification. Thus, a sinless perfect state is not a prerequisite for justification to enter heaven.

Do you believe God will made perfect those believers who are imperfect? Or do you believe we must perfect? Is the same saying, do you believe God's grace through Christ is sufficient for eternal life, or do you believe it is not sufficient?

I'm waiting comments.

He also said to the crowds, “When you see a cloud rising in the west, you say at once, ‘A shower is coming.’ And so it happens. 55 And when you see the south wind blowing, you say, ‘There will be scorching heat,’ and it happens. 56 You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to interpret the present time?
57 “And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? 58 As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. 59 I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny.”

Good quotes, GC, thanks for the spirit and advice, some people needs it.

I will reword what you wrote so it reflects what I believe:

A perfect, sinless character is inevitable. Not one single sinful habit remains. The fruit of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature is the fruit of the Spirit. We must work hard, discipline our bodies and minds to fulfill the righteous demands of the law, with the power of the Spirit, hence, a joint operation work. It does not, however, add to what Jesus accomplishes for us. Our justification is based solely on His blood and righteousness. On judgment day, therefore, we will be treated as if we never sinned.


Jesus' grace is sufficient "to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Again, saying we must be perfectly sinless to be saved is like saying a mango tree must bear mangoes to be a mango tree. A mango tree bears mangoes because it is a mango tree - not in order to be a mango tree. Likewise, believers bear fruits of the Spirit because they are saved - not in order to be a believer or to be saved.

Thank you.

We are almost in common.

The only thing is even a perfect, sinless character is inevitable, as the fruit of putting our faith in Christ, genuine faith, but sinning is also inevitable, for we still are in this sinful bodies and still fall short of God's glory.

Remember 1 Corinthians 13:2, love is greater than faith, and perfect faith, genuine faith is useless if we have no love (agape).

We might have great faith in Christ, but at the same time are a man of anger, a selfish man as according to 1 Corinthians 13:2.

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part", we fall short of the glory of God, our love is stained with self.

Therefore, if sinless perfect character is inevitable, so does sinning, there is no guarantee, and thus, it is the grace of God that saved us through faith. We are justified for eternal life no matter our condition, no matter our achievement, because we all fall short of the glory of God and this faith, this Spirit resides in our sinful nature.

I believe that justification for eternal life has been done at the cross, what God's need from us is JUST our faith in Christ, not our achievement, for God's knew what we are and what we will be despite of our faith in Christ, genuine faith.

Thanks for sharing your comments

Are people born again selfish and sinning? What do the following passages teach about it:


Is Peter describing newborn believers as people who are selfish and sinning?


If Jesus secured our justification on the cross why, then, does Paul say the following: Jesus "was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification (Rom 4:25)." "For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished (1 Cor 15:16-18)."

James 4:17 - Therefore to him that knoweth how to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

This sin is inevitable, because we all fall short of the glory of God.



Objectively, Christ has secured justification at the cross, there is many bible Scriptures to proof it. But I like the best - Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

I think His redemption means his dead and rise of the death, if he did not rise, there is no redemption. So, even all had been done and paid at the cross, but to complete his redemption, he must be raised.

Subjectively, we need to accept this justification through faith in Christ. So, He needs to be raised in order he might justify those who believe Him.

"The people who are at war with the law of the great Jehovah, who consider it a special virtue to talk, and write, and act the most bitter and hateful things to show their contempt for that law, may make a high and exalted profession of love to God, and apparently have much religious zeal, as did the Jewish chief priests and elders; yet in the day of God, “Found wanting” will be said by the Majesty of heaven. By the law is the knowledge of sin. The mirror which would discover to them the defects in their character, infuriates them, because it points out their sins. But the people who profess to keep the law of God, he corrects, he reproves. He points out their sins, and lays open their iniquities, because he wishes to separate all sin and wickedness from them, that they may perfect holiness in his fear, and be prepared either to die in the Lord, or to be translated to heaven. God will rebuke, reprove, and correct them, that they may be refined, sanctified, elevated, and finally exalted to his own throne. {RH September 7, 1886, par. 8}
Ample provisions have been made for all who sincerely, earnestly, and thoughtfully set about perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Power and strength, grace and glory, have been provided through Christ, to be brought by ministering angels to the heirs of salvation. None are so low, and corrupt, and vile, but that they can find in Jesus, who died for them, strength, purity, and righteousness, if they will put away their sins, stop their course of iniquity, and turn with full purpose of heart to the living God. He is waiting to strip them of their garments, stained and polluted by sin, and to put upon them the white, bright robes of righteousness; and he bids them live and not die. In him they may flourish. Their branches will not wither nor be fruitless. If they abide in him, they can draw sap and nourishment from him, be imbued with his Spirit, and walk even as he has walked, overcome as he has overcome, and be exalted to his own right hand. {RH September 7, 1886, par. 9}

Does this sound like it happens after death? The garments of Christs Righteousness is available to everyone right now. He took the sin stained garments and put on His robe, why? So we continue to sin?

You continually prove who you listen to.

The devil is the one who says God cannot cleans us from sin in this life.

If sinning is inevitable, unavoidable what good is salvation? We need help now. If Jesus cannot empower us to be kind and loving and patient at all times, under all circumstances what good is belief? "The devils also believe and tremble." I refuse to believe Jesus is powerless to "save to the uttermost". He promises, "Go and sin no more." I thrive on what John wrote. "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not."

I agree with you that "Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do" {DA 758}. He tasted, consumed, conquered our sin and second death. Then He laid down His life and took it up. In so doing, He didn't add to the work He accomplished on the cross. Jesus died and rose to prove, demonstrate His victory and ownership of sin and the keys of hell and of death. Had He remained in the grave, His life and death would not have saved a single soul.

Well said, Mike. I'm with you. If I believed even for a second that God was unable, that He was powerless, to remove sin from my life and heart before the day of transfiguration, I would give up and die. I simply cannot understand why Christian sinners would desire to cling to their sins so much as to accept a belief that it is impossible for them to depart from them. Jesus has shown us by example that it is indeed possible to live without sin. He has commanded us to cease from sinning. If He had given us a command that were impossible to follow, what kind of God would we be serving?

The God I serve has power against sin that waits for nothing or no one. It is ready to be exercised the instant we come to Him.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

ADMIN HAT ON!!!

After discussing this with a Forum Moderator, we decided to temporarily close this thread for Admin Team Review.

ADMIN HAT OFF!!!

ADMIN HAT ON!!!

Thread cleaned and re-opened for on-topic discussion.

ADMIN HAT OFF!!!

As for the "how" to attain Christian perfection, I think much depends on focusing on Christ, not on perfection. By beholding we become changed. The only way to perfect freedom from sin is through Christ. He is the Way.

Focusing on perfection would imply that there's something that we can do ourselves to get there. I don't believe that is quite possible. We must lean heavily on Christ. His is the victory, and by grace we may be partakers in it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

1 Corinthians 13 gave a clear teaching that faith is not all what is asked for from a believer. Since we all fall short of the glory of God, I think we could not live out the life of Christ as what you think you could do. Hence, sinless perfect character is not the point, is not the target as what you think, moreover as a prerequisite for justification to enter heaven, I think God din't ask this from us.

The target is to remain in Christ by faith and having fruit of the Spirit - love agape, this will retain forever your justification and eternal life. If you sin, confess and you will be justified and live.

Whether you can reach that sinless perfect character or not is not the point, is not the target, is not a reward, is not a prerequisite for justification.

We are saved by grace through faith, that is all a Christian needs, having faith in Christ and remain in Him.

We loose our gift only when we withdrew from faith, not because we are not perfect sinless.

This is better.

As i say, focus on Christ is what we believers must do, not on our achievement. And as I had said to MM, justification and eternal life is a GIFT, just confirm your acceptance by faith in Christ, and all will be yours. Retain this by abiding in Him by faith, and you will retain your gift till the new world, no matter your achievement.

When Jesus said, "Go and sin no more," He didn't mean, "Go and gradually outgrow your sinful habits and practices." We are either all of His and free of sin or none of His and full of sin. "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." "No man can serve two masters." "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not."

We are either walking in the Spirit and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit or we are walking in the flesh and maturing in the fruits of the flesh. We cannot mature in the fruits of the Spirit and mature in the fruits of the flesh simultaneously. While we are abiding in Jesus we do not and cannot sin. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

"Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14. {GC 425.1}

Please keep in mind I agree with you regarding salvation and justification - both are free gifts. Nothing Jesus accomplishes in and through us adds to what He accomplishes for us and without us. However, it seems you don't believe character perfection is also a gift. We are born again "dead to sin" and "awake to righteousness." We receive character perfection as a gift. We do not achieve it.


We are born again with all the fruits of the Spirit, with all the righteous attributes of God's character - not one is missing. "Ye are complete in Him . . . ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God." No, we are not born again fully mature. We mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit from "glory to glory", from "grace to grace", and from "faith to faith" - not from greater sins to lesser sins.

Again, the growth and maturation we experience while walking in the Spirit and in the mind of the new man is a free gift. None of it adds to what Jesus accomplishes for us and without us. The idea that what Jesus accomplishes in and through us comes short of the glory of God misrepresents the power and purpose of grace. "Let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear." "We have received grace . . . for obedience to the faith."

since the day we are "reborn" through baptism, how long ago was that? Any one dare to claim walking in the Spirit perfectly without sinning?

So, what is the point of our discussion if you believe that believers are able to achieve a sinless perfect character, daily life without sinning, but it doesn't add anything to what Jesus had done for us; justification and eternal life which is a gift? What is this connection of a sinless perfect character with our salvation if it doesn't add anything, which means it doesn't take away anything also.

If sinless perfect character is achieve through the joint operation work of the Spirit and your will, and is a prerequisite for justification to enter heaven and have eternal life, then the Spirit is your Savior with the help of your will, NOT Christ is your Savior, for you believe what He has done on the cross is not enough to save you (mankind), therefore it is just called "our qualification for heaven. " What the Spirit do in you with the help of your will, is your FITNESS for heaven, this justify you for heaven and eternal life.

What a mixed of GRACE and WORK.

It is putting a yoke on our Christian brethren shoulder.

1. Does the Bible say post-conversion sinning and repenting is natural, automatic, inevitable, unavoidable? Does it say unbroken, continuous, uninterrupted obedience is impossible? Paul wrote, "If any man sin". He didn't write, "When people sin," or "People will sin."

2. That is the point. Maturing daily in the fruits of the Spirit is a reality for people who abide in Jesus and partake of the divine nature.

3. Again, the fruits of the Spirit do not add to or subtract from what Jesus accomplishes for us. Our salvation is based solely on what Jesus does for us - not on what He does in and through us.

Mike,

I don't think you are right to suppose that we can be instantly sin free simply by abiding in Jesus. That is an overly simplistic view that breaks down in light of other balancing passages and context.



Note that in the above passage, I have underlined the "in progress" or "continuing" verb participles. They indicate that it is a process, not an instantaneous sanctification. God may justify us to see us as if we had never sinned the moment we accept Him, but this does not in that same instant sanctify us completely, removing all of our sins. Mrs. White tells us the work of sanctification is the work of a lifetime.

Let us look at an example. Suppose we recognize that Martin Luther had an abiding faith in Christ. Did he no longer sin? What about the Sabbath? Was he a Sabbath-breaker still? Yes, he was. He was ignorant, but breaking the Sabbath is still a sin, is it not? This is at least one sense in which one can be "abiding in Jesus" and yet sinning. There may be other senses. But it is certainly true that we may be sinning unawares.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Nowhere in the Bible does it describe people experiencing true, genuine, thorough conversion while ignorantly retaining certain sinful habits and practices. The idea that the Bible assumes people experience partial birth conversions and then go on to discover and crucify sinful habits and practices thereafter is unbiblical.

True, it happens in the real world. Martin Luther is a good example. Light was lost during the Dark Ages, and people like Martin Luther are only able to live up to the light that exists or that they are aware of. People still experience rebirth nowadays before discovering the truth about Sabbath-keeping. They don't however, experience true, genuine, thorough conversion in the biblical sense. And the Bible doesn't describe these kinds of situations.

Also, I think you might be misunderstanding my point. While I do believe people who experience true, genuine, thorough conversion (in God's appointed way) "stand perfect and complete in all the will of God," I do not, however, believe they are mature and have no room to grow. Such people are born again and converted with all the fruits of the Spirit and all the righteous attributes of God's character. "Not one is missing."

Sanctified and sanctification are two different aspects of salvation. People who experience rebirth and true, genuine, thorough conversion simultaneously (as opposed to people like Martin Luther who are only partially converted when they experience rebirth) are born again totally justified and sanctified. Nevertheless, the process of sanctification is a lifelong process of maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. This process has nothing to do with outgrowing sinful habits and practices or discovering and crucifying hitherto unknown sinful habits and practices.

The following passages support the insights shared above:

God Works, and Man Works

God has given men faculties and capabilities. God works and cooperates with the gifts He has imparted to man, and man, by being a partaker of the divine nature and doing the work of Christ, may be an overcomer and win eternal life. The Lord does not propose to do the work He has given man powers to do. Man’s part must be done. He must be a laborer together with God, yoking up with Christ, learning His meekness, His lowliness. God is the all-controlling power. He bestows the gifts; man receives them and acts with the power of the grace of Christ as a living agent. {FW 26.1}
“Ye are God’s husbandry” (1 Corinthians 3:9). The heart is to be worked, subdued, plowed, harrowed, seeded, to bring forth its harvest to God in good works. “Ye are God’s building.” You cannot build yourself. There is a Power outside of yourself that must do the building of the church, putting brick upon brick, always cooperating with the faculties and powers given of God to man. The Redeemer must find a home in His building. God works and man works. There needs to be a continual taking in of the gifts of God, in order that there may be as free a giving out of these gifts. It is a continual receiving and then restoring. The Lord has provided that the soul shall receive nourishment from Him, to be given out again in the working out of His purposes. In order that there be an outflowing, there must be an income of divinity to humanity. “I will dwell in them, and walk in them” (2 Corinthians 6:16). {FW 26.2}
The soul temple is to be sacred, holy, pure, and undefiled. There must be a copartnership in which all the power is of God and all the glory belongs to God. The responsibility rests with us. We must receive in thoughts and in feelings, to give in expression. The law of the human and the divine action makes the receiver a laborer together with God. It brings man where he can, united with divinity, work the works of God. Humanity touches humanity. Divine power and the human agency combined will be a complete success, for Christ’s righteousness accomplishes everything. {FW 26.3}

Supernatural Power for Supernatural Works

The reason so many fail to be successful laborers is that they act as though God depended on them, and they are to suggest to God what He chooses to do with them, in the place of their depending on God. They lay aside the supernatural power and fail to do the supernatural work. They are all the time depending on their own and their brethren’s human powers. They are narrow in themselves and are always judging after their finite human comprehension. They need uplifting, for they have no power from on high. God gives us bodies, strength of brain, time and opportunity in which to work. It is required that all be put to the tax. With humanity and divinity combined you can accomplish a work as enduring as eternity. When men think the Lord has made a mistake in their individual cases, and they appoint their own work, they will meet with disappointment. {FW 27.1}
“By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8). Here is truth that will unfold the subject to your mind if you do not close it to the rays of light. Eternal life is an infinite gift. This places it outside the possibility of our earning it, because it is infinite. It must necessarily be a gift. As a gift it must be received by faith, and gratitude and praise be offered to God. Solid faith will not lead anyone away into fanaticism or into acting the slothful servant. It is the bewitching power of Satan that leads men to look to themselves in the place of looking to Jesus. The righteousness of Christ must go before us if the glory of the Lord becomes our rereward. If we do God’s will, we may accept large blessings as God’s free gift, but not because of any merit in us; this is of no value. Do the work of Christ, and you will honor God and come off more than conquerors through Him that has loved us and given His life for us, that we should have life and salvation in Jesus Christ. {FW 27.2}

We are in agreeing of point 2 & 3.

Point 1:
I said
1. Since the day we are "reborn" through baptism, how long ago was that? Any one dare to claim walking in the Spirit perfectly without sinning?

You said
1. Does the Bible say post-conversion sinning and repenting is natural, automatic, inevitable, unavoidable? Does it say unbroken, continuous, uninterrupted obedience is impossible? Paul wrote, "If any man sin". He didn't write, "When people sin," or "People will sin."

No one can claim they live perfectly sinless ever since the day they were reborn.

1 John 1:
7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.

What does these verses indicate?

Post-conversion sinning/repenting does, unfortunately, happen. However, it does not disprove what the Bible says about believers abiding in Jesus, namely, "whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." 1 John 1 speaks against people saying they have no need to repent because they have never sinned. If John had meant not sinning is not possible he would not have said, "If any man sin" in 1 John 2. Instead, he would have said, "When men sin" or "Since men sin" or "Because men sin". "If any man sin" clearly implies sinning is not automatic, inevitable, inescapable, unavoidable.

The ability to "go and sin no more" depends entirely on believers abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature. While they do this they do not and cannot commit a known sin. Moreover, Jesus will not allow them to be tempted above His ability to empower them to recognize and resist it. See 1 Cor 10:13. Sinning is optional while abiding in Jesus.

Going back to Luther, by your words here, Luther never in his life abode in Jesus. This is because he was always a Sabbath breaker. But Ellen White practically states that Luther did indeed abide in Christ, or Christ in him.



How do you, then, rectify your position with these things?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green Cochoa, do you know what ignorance is?

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Martin Luther did not know he was committing sin when he did not keep the Sabbath, but if the conviction came over him, you better bet he would have repented.

This is pretty elemental in our faith to know this, since it is a question that comes up in every single seminar by people wanting to know if their loved ones are going to be in hell who died in ignorance not knowing the Sabbath.

Brother Luther was the first in the reformation with Jesus as His guide, I think God will forgive his ignorance don't you?

But there is difference between ignorance and a hardened heart that will not hear what God is trying to show them.

Ephesians 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.

Hebrews 9:7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.

"It is through faith in Jesus Christ that the truth is accepted in the heart, and the human agent is purified and cleansed.... He has an abiding principle in the soul, that enables him to overcome temptation. “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” God has power to keep the soul that is in Christ who is under temptation.... {7BC 951.1}
A mere profession of godliness is worthless. It is he that abideth in Christ that is a Christian.... Unless the mind of God becomes the mind of men, every effort to purify himself will be useless; for it is impossible to elevate man except through a knowledge of God. The outward gloss may be put on, and men may be as were the Pharisees whom Jesus describes as “whited sepulchres” full of corruption and dead men’s bones. But all the deformity of the soul is open to Him who judgeth righteously, and unless the truth is planted in the heart, it cannot control the life. Cleansing the outside of the cup will never make the vessel pure within. A nominal acceptance of truth is good as far as it goes, and the ability to give a reason for our faith is a good accomplishment, but if the truth does not go deeper than this, the soul will never be saved. The heart must be purified from all moral defilement (Letter 13, 1893). {7BC 951.2}

Brother Mountain Man is correct in his understanding on this issue.

M&M, I told you Mr Saptenno is not here to support our faith but to win converts to his faith. Please be careful how you let him lure you into controversy. He is looking to find where you both agree so he can win your support by making you question our faith. I am not lying that God tells me things.

Excellent observation and question. Thank you. I addressed this point above (#144948) in response to an earlier post. Like Luther, there are many people today who are ignorantly breaking the Sabbath. And, like Luther, they are saved. However, the Bible does not describe their situation. Instead, it describes fully converted believers, that is, people who are living in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus "commanded". Jesus definitely abides in people, like Luther, who experience rebirth before they experience complete, thorough conversion (before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded).

But don't forget that if Brother Luther was alive he would be as responsible as we are to find the truth and to not be ignorant.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Martin Luther was so close on many points, but since he was truly led by the spirit of truth, now that more clearer present truth has been announced, then he would be as responsible as we to understand the Sabbath and state of the dead.

He was correct that death is a sleep but he also believed the soul was separate from the body.

Isn't God still winking his eye today at the ignorance of the 1st day over the 7th day; Sunday over the 7th day Sabbath?

The harlot church, just like Satan, has fallen by degrees. To the true church more light has been given. How many people accepted the Sabbath/righteousness by faith message between 1844 and 1888? Now we are millions strong, and worldwide the likelihood of being completely innocent of the knowledge has diminished.

Rome became the dragon when they tried to kill the baby Jesus. The same effect came upon the roman church by killing so called 'heretics' who kept the words of the bible over the traditions of men.

The "Fallen, Fallen" of Rev 18 shows when the end of probation is for the willingly ignorant. This is when the daughters of the Harlot join in their mother's rebellion of God by hate killing Sabbath keepers.

Every man is judged according to the light given to them in their lifetime. If the message has been given to them, and they offhandedly reject it without testing the Spirit of the message, then they lose early in the battle. If they do test the Spirit, not fully accepting but not openly rejected the light, or have never heard the message, the door of mercy is still open to them. The danger is greater for the unconvinced or willingly ignorant, than the truly ignorant, and un-convicted, see the difference.

Proportionately very few people who call themselves Christians will not have heard the message at the time of the loud cry, or not be fully cut off through disbelief.

Those who are totally ignorant, or on the fence, who yet desire for the knowledge of the Glory of the Lord, the 144,000 will speak to their hearts when the later rain comes. They will be brought through the valley of decision very quickly. This will occur when Satan appears as an angel of light and we stand against him, warning the world that these apparitions are not from God.

Yes, the door of mercy is still open for the ignorant. But it is going to be impossible to claim ignorance very very soon.

Do you not think people are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded when they do so to the absolute best of their knowledge? I mean, if you think about it for a moment, if you do not allow for circumstances or for ignorance to create an exception whereby the person is not guilty of sin, then Jesus Himself was necessarily a sinner on earth. After all, He ate foods that were unhealthful, as compared to the pure and unpolluted/non-toxic foods promoting eternal life of Heaven. Had He stayed in Heaven, He would have experienced no loss of health. Coming here, He took on a weakened form and ate of foods that were not the best for His eternal life. Yet, as we know, He committed no sin. His was a mission with a purpose. He even accepted flesh foods with His friends. Was food the most important part of His mission? or was it the people with whom He associated? Was it wrong of Him to fast 40 days? Should He never have stayed up all night in prayer? These things are injurious to health, are they not? Does spiritual health truly trump the requirements for physical health? Should we not demand both?

I guess, Mike, I see you as being overly particular in your views--to the point of losing sight of the more important aspects of the bigger whole. I would invite you to readjust your focus a little. Step back and ponder the big picture. Understand where God is coming from. He is particular, that is certain. But He is not nit-picking to find every conceivable flaw in us. He is not an accuser of the brethren. Nor does He hold us accountable for that which we do not know nor had opportunity to learn.

To spank an infant child for soiling his diaper would be insane. The child is not capable, at his stage of development, of doing anything else. The parent does not hold his infant accountable for all such "misdeeds," nor does he keep a record of them. The child is innocent.

As the child grows, develops, and learns, he becomes increasingly accountable. This is how I view God's perspective of us. We are not all equally accountable. Some have more knowledge or maturity in spiritual things than have others. We are "innocent" and "guiltless" insofar as we are living up to the light we presently have. All of it. But nothing beyond. We are not counted as sinners for that which we do in total ignorance. The Lord winks at our ignorance. To Him, as long as we follow all the light we have, I believe we are "perfect."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Christ as a baby probably also soiled his diapers, or whatever they were called back then.

Brother Daryl, that would be disposable swaddling blankets in their time...

At Mountain Man... where did you come up with this?

"Like Luther, there are many people today who are ignorantly breaking the Sabbath. And, like Luther, they are saved. However, the Bible does not describe their situation. Instead, it describes fully converted believers, that is, people who are living in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus "commanded"."

If the bible doesn't tell of their situation then where did you come up with this?

My point is, no one is "saved" until being fully converted. Not even Seventh Day Adventists.

"We may believe that the name of Jesus is the only name under heaven whereby man may be saved, and yet we may not through faith make Him our personal Saviour. It is not enough to believe the theory of truth. It is not enough to make a profession of faith in Christ and have our names registered on the church roll. “He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.” “Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments.” 1 John 3:24; 1 John 2:3. This is the genuine evidence of conversion. Whatever our profession, it amounts to nothing unless Christ is revealed in works of righteousness." {COL 312.3}

So where did you get this idea? It is not of our faith.

Those who do not know of the Sabbath and the commandments will have every opportunity to be converted until the end of probation, but to say that they are "saved" is not from the Holy Spirit. True salvation is not assured until full conversion.

If a man falls into a deep pit and a lifeline is thrown to him, would it be appropriate to say they are saved yet? Not until they are pulled out of the pit are they saved.

The key to the situation is the open and shut door.

There is a progression in present truth from the beginning and no man who rejects any part of the end time message will be saved.

In the days of Luther there was a universal ignorance because God had not fully revealed His plan to all so there a different level of accountability.

Since the time of Luther the door to the Holy Place is closed and the door to the most Holy is open, what did Mrs White say about those who refuse to follow Jesus into the Most Holy Place?

They worship at the throne of Satan. So be careful how you dole God's grace out.

"God’s work is to be carried forward with power. We need the baptism of the Holy Spirit... God has many thousands who have not bowed the knee to Baal. There are God-fearing men and women in the fallen churches. If this were not so, we would not be given the message to bear: “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen.” “Come out of her, My people.” Many of the honest in heart are gasping for a breath of life from heaven. They will recognize the gospel when it is brought to them in the beauty and simplicity with which it is presented in God’s Word."—Testimonies For The Church 9:109-111 (1909). {Ev 66.3}

Here are they who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus, for the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy. Here are they who have wisdom.

The only true church in the last days are those who trust in the unadulterated Seventh day Adventist message, embracing the sacred writings given by God through our prophets from Moses to Ellen White.

If we do not have the Spirit of Prophecy, our church is a lie.

But my heart is thrilled by the same voice, and He leads me. He never contradicts what He has said before, making what was once known even clearer.

I believe that since 9/11 2001 people who do not have the commandments of God will have to come to Christ through the Sabbath to be finally saved.

The world is just at that point of straining the forbearance of God from the years of rejecting the powerful evidence given through the testimony. This testimony is spoken specifically of in all 3 of the prophecies through Mrs White about September 11.

We are in the time just before the golden censer is thrown down and it is finished, how much more time do you think we have?

There will be one more great attempt by God through men to save, one more big push. When Satan reveals himself as the man of sin, with the power of an angel of light sent from God, that is when the people of God who have listened to the testimony through our faith will proclaim with a loud voice "BABYLON HAS FALLEN THE SECOND TIME and become inhabited by demons, come out of her my people". These words are spoken in the first person narrative as if God Himself is speaking it through these 144,000 messengers. It will touch the truly devoted and they will come out, but they are NOT SAVED until they do!

During the later rain, the vast multitude which no man could number are led by the 144,000 which come from the Adventist denomination. The 144,000 have been prepared for the end by the unique interpretation given through our pioneers, The message that The peculiar people have been proclaiming for almost 170 years will prove itself to the world in the last days, after what happens in perfect fulfillment, just as prophesied by Mrs White's biblical prophetic interpretation. This will garner many from off the fence.

The Spirit of Prophecy PROVES who has the true Spirit of Christ. There are many things hidden in her writings that will powerfully be revealed in perfectly symmetrical amplification of the word of God, to those desiring to be pure of heart through Christs suffering, in the last days.

Here in this last quote is also joined two of the testimonies our Lord gave me in His name through visions and dreams.

The baptism of blood/fire that is spoken of here is the baptism of blood Jesus went through in the Garden of Gethsemane which began the three days and nights, "sign of Jonah", which is the sign to the wicked and adulterous generation at the end of history. The sign was the dove that overshadowed Him after His hour of darkness in the Garden. He had a dove overshadow Him at His baptism in the Jordan with water, then He had the dove overshadow Him again the Garden of Gethsemane. This was revealed to me. This is the second baptism that everyone needs.

Witnessing your sins placed upon the head of Christ, the coolest man who ever lived. The one who loved you the most. When you witness that, you are meeting Him at the altar of self sacrifice where He said "Not my will but your's Father" and was baptized in His own blood, for you, fulfilling the Red Heifer sacrifice in the exact spot it had been symbolically sacrificed for over a thousand years. So many prophecies come together in the Garden. It is where Jesus felt the wrath of God for us by being cut off from the Father Spiritually, dying the second death for us.

A completely new dimension of the Mission of Christ attested to by the Spirit of Prophecy and scripture and I get the big yawn from the church.

Why not, if my view inspired you and brought you to a better knowledge of the Words of God? So vice versa.

But one thing i'm pondering to, is what you believe that sinless perfect character is a prerequisite to enter heaven and eat the fruit of life. And from the answers and comments here after I discussed about this, I saw that this view has weakened, as you can't deny the truth I said, and thus can't sustain your view.

Therefore, hold fast to what you believe, and if it is not supported by the bible, throw it away before it brought you to eternal damnation.

I agree with GC.
That's the same with what I'm telling here.

If sin is only the breaking of God's commandments, then I might agree with MM view, but sin is also not doing the good thing we knew we must do. Since there is nothing good in me, How can I do the good things I must do? After the Spirit led me, there are still so many good things I didn't do for whatsoever reason, this makes me sins every day, but I can accept this because I will always fall short of the glory of God, I could never be perfected in the same way as Jesus is perfect. And I believe that Christ is not seeking the perfect one to be saved but sinners. He is not making a standard of life such as a perfect sinless state as a prerequisite for heaven, but he is willing to save sinners who believe in Him, whose righteousness is a righteousness in Christ by faith, he is not asking us to stand in our own righteousness as what is so called "the imparted", as an order to be saved. He knew and understood our weakness and the strength of sin.

Therefore, every one of us is saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ as a GIFT and not mixed with works even a joint cooperation works of the Spirit and your will.

Mr Saptenno, are you a devoted Seventh Day Adventist? Or are you here to see what kind of controversy you can stir up?

Was Jesus perfect? Was He a man? case closed.

According to everything you have said since the beginning of this thread I am not convinced that you are a true Seventh Day Adventist.

Here is what our Prophet said about this subject and if you reject it, I pray God awakens you before you are lost.

"The work of gaining salvation is one of copartnership, a joint operation. There is to be co-operation between God and the repentant sinner. This is necessary for the formation of right principles in the character. Man is to make earnest efforts to overcome that which hinders him from attaining to perfection. But he is wholly dependent upon God for success. Human effort of itself is not sufficient. Without the aid of divine power it avails nothing. God works and man works. Resistance of temptation must come from man, who must draw his power from God. On the one side there is infinite wisdom, compassion, and power; on the other, weakness, sinfulness, absolute helplessness. {AA 482.2}
God wishes us to have the mastery over ourselves. But He cannot help us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the powers and faculties given to man. Of ourselves, we are not able to bring the purposes and desires and inclinations into harmony with the will of God; but if we are “willing to be made willing,” the Saviour will accomplish this for us, “Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.” 2 Corinthians 10:5. {AA 482.3}

"None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection and places before us the example of Christ’s character. In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God’s assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete victory. {AA 531.2}
Before the believer is held out the wonderful possibility of being like Christ, obedient to all the principles of the law. But of himself man is utterly unable to reach this condition. The holiness that God’s word declares he must have before he can be saved is the result of the working of divine grace as he bows in submission to the discipline and restraining influences of the Spirit of truth. Man’s obedience can be made perfect only by the incense of Christ’s righteousness, which fills with divine fragrance every act of obedience. The part of the Christian is to persevere in overcoming every fault. Constantly he is to pray to the Saviour to heal the disorders of his sin-sick soul. He has not the wisdom or the strength to overcome; these belong to the Lord, and He bestows them on those who in humiliation and contrition seek Him for help. {AA 532.1}

If you cannot grasp this one subject and instead argue against it, you are not a true Christian let alone an Seventh Day Adventist.

Thank you for bringing up so many interesting and important points. Balance is key. Thank you.

You wrote, "Do you not think people are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded when they do so to the absolute best of their knowledge?" No, of course not. Luther, for example, was not living in harmony with "all things whatsoever I have commanded you".

You wrote, "We are not counted as sinners for that which we do in total ignorance." Sin is the transgression of the law. Some sins are "sins of ignorance," nevertheless, they are sins. Jesus gave His life and blood to atone for sins of ignorance. God does not hold people accountable for truth they know not.

Why do people within the greatest church that has ever existed act as if God does not speak to us?

Would a God who loves us so much allow us to be ignorant of ANY sin in these last days? Are you seriously going to claim ignorance when our Father has been trying to get our attentions for EVERY sin we have ever committed, either willingly or ignorantly?

If you have the Spirit of Prophecy God will not leave you ignorant...PERIOD! There is not a day that goes by that the Holy Spirit does not warn me to keep me from sin, do you not have this Spirit prompting you not to sin even in thought? If you don't then I would question your sincerity in Christ because He does all He can to save me from my ignorance...because He is God and He loves me and wants me to know peace with Him. Sin cuts us off from God. Adam was CUT OFF for eating a piece of fruit. Do you think God works differently for us? He says it's OK now?

"We are now living in the great day of atonement. In the typical service, while the high priest was making the atonement for Israel, all were required to afflict their souls by repentance of sin and humiliation before the Lord, lest they be cut off from among the people. In like manner, all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. There must be deep, faithful searching of heart. The light, frivolous spirit indulged by so many professed Christians must be put away. There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. The work of preparation is an individual work. We are not saved in groups. The purity and devotion of one will not offset the want of these qualities in another. Though all nations are to pass in judgment before God, yet He will examine the case of each individual with as close and searching scrutiny as if there were not another being upon the earth. Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. Solemn are the scenes connected with the closing work of the atonement. Momentous are the interests involved therein. The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon—none know how soon—it will pass to the cases of the living [since 9/11]. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour’s admonition: “Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.” Mark 13:33. {CCh 348.5}

Jesus promises He will not allow us to be tempted above His ability to empower us to recognize and resist it unto the honor and glory of God our Father. Thank you, Jesus. More importantly He also promises to empower us to grow in grace, to mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit. Not sinning is not the main goal. "Righteousness and true holiness," "perfecting holiness" is the primary goal. Let God be magnified.

Amen Brother M&M,

This quote sums it all up.

John 16:13(ESV)
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth, for He will not speak on his own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

The reason God gave us the Spirit of Prophecy is to guide us into all truth. Not some truth, or a majority of truth, or even 99% truth, but to ALL truth.

Almost everyone who logs into this website believes the end is very near. How much more time is there to get us into ALL truth?

Nearly everyone I know, the majority of people I meet believe sinning and repenting is normal growth in grace. They believe people experience rebirth first and then they spend the rest of their life gradually outgrowing sinful habits and practices but never really completely ridding themselves of sin. "I'm only human; nobody is perfect," they say, thus justifying, rationalizing sinning and repenting as if it is normal. God forbid!!!

We are to grow daily in spiritual loveliness. We shall fail often in our efforts to copy the divine Pattern. We shall often have to bow down to weep at the feet of Jesus, because of our shortcomings and mistakes; but we are not to be discouraged; we are to pray more fervently, believe more fully, and try again with more steadfastness to grow into the likeness of our Lord.--Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 336, 337. {YRP 64.5}

I believe in total victory over sin - not, however, as an instantaneous result of the new birth.

Rosangela,

Brother Mountain Man I believe was saying the same thing as your quote from Mrs White, but not, I believe, the same thing as your input there.

He said at the end "they say, thus justifying, rationalizing sinning and repenting as if it is normal. God forbid!!!"

Of course he would think repenting is normal if you sinned, so I would speculate he meant that "Justifying and rationalizing sinning" is not normal in the Spirit of Christ. Which is actually correct. He just worded it wrong.

"Come to Jesus, and receive rest and peace. You may have the blessing even now. Satan suggests that you are helpless and cannot bless yourself. It is true; you are helpless. But lift up Jesus before him: “I have a risen Saviour. In Him I trust, and He will never suffer me to be confounded. In His name I triumph. He is my righteousness and my crown of rejoicing.” Let no one here feel that his case is hopeless, for it is not. You may see that you are sinful and undone, but it is just on this account that you need a Saviour. If you have sins to confess, lose no time. These moments are golden. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9. Those who hunger and thirst after righteousness will be filled, for Jesus has promised it. Precious Saviour! His arms are open to receive us, and His great heart of love is waiting to bless us. {CCh 48.4}
Some seem to feel that they must be on probation and must prove to the Lord that they are reformed, before they can claim His blessing. But these dear souls may claim the blessing even now. They must have His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help their infirmities, or they cannot form a Christian character. Jesus loves to have us come to Him, just as we are—sinful, helpless, dependent. {CCh 48.5}
Repentance, as well as forgiveness, is the gift of God through Christ. It is through the influence of the Holy Spirit that we are convicted of sin and feel our need of pardon. None but the contrite are forgiven; but it is the grace of God that makes the heart penitent. He is acquainted with all our weaknesses and infirmities, and He will help us. {CCh 49.1}

{Here is where the majority are, including those instigating the argument against instant forgiveness as we have here. Please pay attention, this is the most blessed thing our Lord has taught me in His grace. Brother James}

"Some who come to God by repentance and confession, and even believe that their sins are forgiven, still fail of claiming, as they should, the promises of God. They do not see that Jesus is an ever-present Saviour; and they are not ready to commit the keeping of their souls to Him, relying upon Him to perfect the work of grace begun in their hearts. While they think they are committing themselves to God, there is a great deal of self-dependence. There are conscientious souls that trust partly to God and partly to themselves. They do not look to God, to be kept by His power, but depend upon watchfulness against temptation and the performance of certain duties for acceptance with Him. There are no victories in this kind of faith. Such persons toil to no purpose; their souls are in continual bondage, and they find no rest until their burdens are laid at the feet of Jesus. {CCh 49.2}

The reason that the majority of believers do not have victory over sin is because they do not walk in Christ, they get baptized and think they have to do everything themselves to resist temptation, and OF COURSE they are going to fail.

When we come to Christ in full submission, in complete reliance upon Him to forgive and save us, we are at that point already being led by the Holy Spirit, for NOTHING good comes from us. If we come to Christ we will be completely forgiven for any sin our past, not in our future. So if you leave the baptismal font and go out and sleep with someone who is not your wife, how repentant were you to begin with? This lack of conviction in the Spirit of Christ limits our faith in His power to forgive.

If you had EVER had an experience where you were led by the Spirit on your face for forgiveness, you would not be arguing this case.

Brother JSOT,

I've been discussing with MM for 8 years, so I'm sure my comment addresses his arguments. His interpretation of 1 John 3:6, 9 differs from mine.

So you have nothing else to say according to the quotes I used? Do you not respect the Spirit of Prophecy quotes that prove you are wrong?

Your response says volumes about who you are!

"To the penitent thief came the perfect peace of acceptance with God." {DA 751.2}

This next quote fits perfectly with what God showed me in the vision He gave me of meeting Jesus in the Garden... (http://redheifersbloodysweat.blogspot.com/2011/12/red-heifer.html)

"The religion of Christ means more than the forgiveness of sin; it means taking away our sins, and filling the vacuum with the graces of the Holy Spirit. It means divine illumination, rejoicing in God. It means a heart emptied of self, and blessed with the abiding presence of Christ. When Christ reigns in the soul, there is purity, freedom from sin. The glory, the fullness, the completeness of the gospel plan is fulfilled in the life. The acceptance of the Saviour brings a glow of perfect peace, perfect love, perfect assurance. The beauty and fragrance of the character of Christ revealed in the life testifies that God has indeed sent His Son into the world to be its Saviour. {COL 419.6}
Christ does not bid His followers strive to shine. He says, Let your light shine. If you have received the grace of God, the light is in you. Remove the obstructions, and the Lord’s glory will be revealed. The light will shine forth to penetrate and dispel the darkness. You cannot help shining within the range of your influence. {COL 420.1}

When you receive this level of assurance and peace in Christ you would have no argument.

You literally have to shut the connection with Christ off to accomplish anything in the realm sin. This is the old man warring against the Spirit. If you just relax and let your light shine you don't have to step out of the protection of the Father ever again.

"What is the “rest” promised? It is the consciousness that God is true, that He never disappoints the one who comes to Him. His pardon is full and free, and His acceptance means rest to the soul, rest in His love.—The Review and Herald, April 25, 1899. (HC 97.) {2MCP 803.1}

"Rest is found when all self-justification, all reasoning from a selfish standpoint, is put away. Entire self-surrender, an acceptance of His ways, is the secret of perfect rest in His love.... Do just what He has told you to do and be assured that God will do all that He has said He would do.... Have you come to Him, renouncing all your makeshifts, all your unbelief, all your self-righteousness? Come just as you are, weak, helpless, and ready to die.—The Review and Herald, April 25, 1899. (HC 97.) {2MCP 803.2

From the Bible Commentary about 1 John chapter 3...

"Power to Keep Us from Temptation—“And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as He (Jesus) is pure.” {7BC 950.9}
Does this text mean that the human agent can remove one stain of sin from his soul? No. Then what does it mean to purify himself? It means to look upon the Lord’s great moral standard of righteousness, the holy law of God, and see that he is a sinner in the light of that law. “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.” {7BC 950.10}
It is through faith in Jesus Christ that the truth is accepted in the heart, and the human agent is purified and cleansed.... He has an abiding principle in the soul, that enables him to overcome temptation. “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” God has power to keep the soul that is in Christ who is under temptation.... {7BC 951.1}
A mere profession of godliness is worthless. It is he that abideth in Christ that is a Christian.... Unless the mind of God becomes the mind of men, every effort to purify himself will be useless; for it is impossible to elevate man except through a knowledge of God. The outward gloss may be put on, and men may be as were the Pharisees whom Jesus describes as “whited sepulchres” full of corruption and dead men’s bones. But all the deformity of the soul is open to Him who judgeth righteously, and unless the truth is planted in the heart, it cannot control the life. Cleansing the outside of the cup will never make the vessel pure within. A nominal acceptance of truth is good as far as it goes, and the ability to give a reason for our faith is a good accomplishment, but if the truth does not go deeper than this, the soul will never be saved. The heart must be purified from all moral defilement (Letter 13, 1893). {7BC 951.2}

In other words sister, it is impossible to sin if we are abiding in Him, when we do sin we step out of His protection.

If the penitent thief could reach this level of acceptance with God on his first day of conversion what makes you say this is not a constant?

I would argue that very few people allow God to touch them as deeply as the truth touched the penitent thief and because of their halfheartedness they are not truly converted even if they accept baptism.

So in essence, we are only limited by our faith in Jesus.

If we receive the faith that He will keep us from sin, HE WILL.

If we don't have that level of faith, we are just spinning our wheels, and if we teach others that this is a condition that is acceptable by God and still considered service to Him, do you know what you get? Look at most of our churches and you will see the results.

Watch all the halfhearted fill out their "Spiritual Gifts survey's" convincing themselves that where they perceive their own strength is where God can use them.

But my God impresses me that "when I am WEAK I am strong in Him".

Halfhearted men are also governing our churches in most cases and they think it is good to fill the church full of other halfhearted men that try to convince themselves they are saved while shutting out those who truly are filled with the Faith OF Jesus. Too much to bear they say.

“Have you followed him in the garden of Gethsemane? Have you seen the bloody sweat bedew the ground?” {RH July 12, 1892, par. 6}

This is where our sins are taken away and the vacuum is filled with the Holy Spirit. If we sin, let the Spirit cause you to repent and lead you back to the Garden to place your sins on His head. Just like the ceremonial law where they would come through the eastern Gate and place their sins upon the head of the sacrifice for sin.

This is the propitiation and it leaves us clean. Our sins are taken away here, not covered over or put in escrow. TAKEN AWAY!!!

Have you understood what I wrote? Please read it again:



Total victory over sin IS NOT an instantaneous result of the new birth. If it were, nobody would ever have sinned after being born again. Have you never sinned after having been born again? That was not my experience - nor Paul's, nor Peter's, nor John's, nor Ellen White's. All of us have sinned after the new birth. The EGW quote I posted says that "We shall fail often in our efforts to copy the divine Pattern." Total victory over sin (which is what the 144,000 will have) is a fruit of growth and maturity in the Christian life.

In case you have a different opinion, we shall agree to disagree.

As to MM, what he calls not sinning, IS NOT not sinning. He says he does not sin (because everybody who was born again does not sin), yet he occasionally sins, as everybody else.

This is Robertson's commentary on 1 John 5:18:

But abiding in Him is something you learn, it's a progressive experience, and not something instantaneous you acquire at the new birth.

Let them give themselves, body, soul, and spirit, to God, to be used by Him in saving souls. They are not at liberty to do with themselves as they please; they belong to God, for He has bought them with the lifeblood of His only-begotten Son. And as they learn to abide in Christ, there will remain in the heart no room for selfishness. In His service they will find the fullest satisfaction. {CT 522.2}

And this is what the SDABC says about 1 John 3:6:

I'm speaking as a moderator here. Please abstain from such comments.

True, most newborn believers experience rebirth before they understand "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded. As such, they cannot possibly imitate Jesus' sinless example. I'm glad you believe total victory over sin is biblical. So many people do not. It's sad. They believe sinning and repenting, sinning and repenting over and over again is normal growth in grace.


The Bible does not describe newborn believers as people who are sinning and repenting, sinning and repenting over and over again as if it is normal growth in grace. Instead, the Bible describes not sinning as normal. "Perfecting holiness" is normal. True, believers often sin. But the Bible doesn't describe it as normal growth in grace.

You wrote, "I believe in total victory over sin - not, however, as an instantaneous result of the new birth." Is sinning, therefore, a normal result of rebirth? That is, do newborn believers sin while they are abiding in Jesus? If so, are you referring to sins of ignorance? Or, are you referring to known sins? Please cite Bible passages which describe the results of abiding in Jesus as including committing known sins (as opposed to citing examples of believers, like Peter, committing post-conversion sins). Or, do you think Peter was abiding in Jesus when he sinned?


Interesting. I didn't realize you think this way about what I believe. Good to know. Actually, though, I believe it is impossible for people who experience true, genuine, thorough rebirth and conversion (as opposed to people who experience rebirth first and then finish converting to living in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded later on) to commit a known sin. They do not and cannot commit a known sin while they are actively, aggressively abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature. To commit a known sin, therefore, they must neglect or refuse to abide in Jesus. In this state, all they can do is sin.


Newborn believers are born again "a perfect man". They have "tasted that the Lord is gracious". They have laid "aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings". They are "able also to bridle the whole body". They "stand perfect and complete in all the will of God". Of course, this is only true of them while they are actively, aggressively abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature. Otherwise, they resurrect the old man and then all they can do is sin.

True. The Bible promises victory over sin.


No, newborn believers don't sin while they are abiding in Jesus. The problem is, as I said, that abiding in Jesus is a learned experience, and something which grows with time - that is, each day you abide more and more in Jesus; the ideal state is when you never cease to abide in Jesus - then, of course, you no longer sin (this is what happened with Enoch and will happen with the 144,000). But, until that happens, Christians "shall fail often" in their efforts to copy the divine Pattern. Therefore, it cannot be said that they "do not sin." This translation is wrong. The correct translation should be that they "do not habitually sin."

You still don't comment on the quotes? Did YOU understand what I quoted? You obviously do not get it Mrs Moderator.

Can you abide in Christ and still sin is the issue.

If I sin I am not bold enough to say I am remaining in Christ by doing so, like you seem to be saying. Could Adam say He was remaining in Christ while he ate the fruit? He was first brought to his knees in repentance for the great disaster he caused (Like every sin causes) and after he repented he suffered the humiliation of his fallen condition for a thousand years, but He was saved through faith in the end of his life. When he fell was he still "in Christ"? You are mad if you think he was.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO SIN AND REMAIN IN CHRIST AT THAT MOMENT.

The wages of sin is death. The moment after you sin you better be on your knees praying for mercy or you could die in that sin.

The instant you sin, you are on Satan's ground.

"How many will make an offering to the Lord of the whole being, to be used as a temple for His indwelling? Seek the Lord while He may be found. As you give yourself to Him to be cleansed from all sin, He will accept you as His child. He has revealed His love for you by sending His Son to this world to die for you, and He will help you to serve Him. {7MR 8.4}

Would you agree Moses was in Christ?

Then why was the angel going to destroy him for not having son circumcised?

It is because he had neglected God's command to do so, and this is sin.

Doesn't it seem harsh that God would destroy Moses for not circumcising his son? It was because he was acting as God's representative and not listening to God, because his wife didn't want her son circumcised.

And you obviously didn't understand what I said. My contention has to do with the new birth. The fact that someone has been born again doesn't mean he does not sin. 1 John 3:9 says:

"Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

This translation is inaccurate. "Everyone who has been born of God does not sin habitually" would be the correct translation.

The same is true about 1Jo 5:18:

"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not."

Rosangela, I don't see that word "habitually" in the Scripture4all software. Could you indicate which greek word the "habitually" correspond to in that verse?

Also could you state specifically what inaccuracy you see in 1Jon 5:18

Was Moses a habitual sinner? Yet the angel was going to destroy him for one sin, which was actually his wife's sin enforced on his love relationship with her, and he was going to die? If he was "in Christ" at that moment why would the angel destroy him? But he had already spoken with God at the burning bush so he was already abiding in Christ or he would have been destroyed standing in the presence of God. So he had to have left the security of God to be threatened with death like that.

Here is a good question. Was David abiding in Christ when he took his best servants wife and had him killed? NO WAY! He had tasted the grace of God and had walked in the body of Christ from the day he was anointed by Samuel. He was literally part of the body of Christ as the great, great, great,....grandfather of Jesus, yet he was convicted of the most horrendous crime. Was he abiding in Christ then?

Was Solomon abiding in Christ when he took wives from other nations and started worshiping their gods? He left that protection when he sinned, and if God would have permitted him to die, Solomon would not be saved.

When David chose to sin he also was stepping out from under the shadow of the Almighty, and if he had not repented the savior would have come another way, but there is no way you are going to tell me that at that point, when in the throws of sin and betrayal, that David was in Christ.

The point is, if we stay in Christ we do not sin. If we sin and repent we are forgiven, but if we do not repent we lose the grace of God.

The reason this point is so important is, what you are advocating is paramount to believing "once saved always saved". If you looked beyond what you are saying, you would see the flaws in your doctrines.

From the moment we are led by the Spirit to repent for what we did to GOD by our sins, which is true repentance, unlike those who are just trying to avoid the wrath of God, we are absolutely free of sin in the Fathers eyes. It is the faith of Christ that develops this trust so we continue to abide in Christ. Some people receive this faith right away, some it takes a lifetime. If we fall we have an advocate to get us back on the path.

Why did Jesus call the apostles "slow of faith"? Yet Jesus testified that the Samarian woman and the Roman Centurion were great of faith, why? Those two witnesses to God's grace saw how they deserved death, they recognized their lack of any merits to meet with God and were willing to do what ever it takes to receive grace.

Another point is, we as a people who claim the testimony of Jesus which is the Spirit of Prophecy are effected by sin as a group although responsibility is individual.

Like the sin of Achan that brought the suffering and death on the collective children of Israel, our church, the Seventh Day Adventist Church is being effected by decisions made by a few leaders and the effects are felt by the whole body. We need to be of those who sigh and cry for the abominations done in the sanctuary of God by our church, Laodicea, the judged people.

You have to be born again to enter into the body of Christ, they are one in the same in meaning.

So everybody who has been born again does not/cannot sin, and the fact that Moses sinned, Paul sinned, Peter sinned, John sinned, Ellen White sinned means they hadn't been born again?

Elle, there is no word "habitually" in the text. The word is necessary for the translation to convey correctly the meaning of the Greek tense.

Robertson on 1 John 3:9:

Did you read me saying they were not born again? I said Moses had stood on the Holy Ground in the presence of God, and David Had been anointed by the Holy Spirit, what in this did you not understand?

They left the shelter of their covering after the event of discovery, after their baptism in the Spirit when they had seen God, making their sins more grievous. God still forgave them; showing to what extent God can and will forgive, and how perfectly dependent on God we are to receive salvation. In fact the Elders of all the tribes of which the gates to God's capital are named, were all at one time terrible sinners.

The more you know, the more accountable you become to do what is right before Him.

It's interesting that you included Ellen White in the sin category, when I cannot come up with any references to that fact in history except when she was holding back in giving the messages given to her by God, showing a lack of faith for the first few visions. She was shown that the blood of those who would perish from her withholding of the Spirit would be upon her head.

The others are recorded for their sins in the history of scripture for a lesson.

It's very interesting that the majority of the cases in scripture, of men of God leaving God's service, were over a woman.

Look at what Mrs White says about being unequally yoked.

"To connect with an unbeliever is to place yourself on Satan’s ground. You grieve the Spirit of God and forfeit His protection. Can you afford to have such terrible odds against you in fighting the battle for everlasting life?" 12 {AH 67.1}

But we can also grieve away the Holy Spirit by indulging carnal passions...

"You should present encouragements before your children that a merciful God will accept true heart repentance, and will bless their endeavors to cleanse themselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit. As Satan sees that he is losing control over the minds of your children, he will strongly tempt them, and seek to bind them to continue to practice this bewitching vice. But with a firm purpose they must resist Satan’s temptations to indulge the animal passions, because it is sin against God. They should not venture on forbidden ground, where Satan can claim control over them. If they in humility entreat God for purity of thought, and a refined and sanctified imagination, he will hear them, and grant their petitions. God has not left them to perish in their sins, but will help the weak and helpless, if they cast themselves in faith upon him." {ApM 22.2}

"We must keep close to the word of God. We need its warnings and encouragement, its threatenings and promises. We need the perfect example given only in the life and character of our Saviour. Angels of God will preserve his people while they walk in the path of duty; but there is no assurance of such protection for those who deliberately venture upon Satan’s ground. An agent of the great deceiver will say and do anything to gain his object... Pretending great interest in their welfare, he casts a spell over his unsuspecting victims, charming them as the serpent charms the trembling bird. Soon they are completely in his power, and sin, disgrace, and ruin are the terrible sequel." {CTBH 115.3}

Proverbs 24;16 for the righteous man falls seven times and rises again,
but the wicked stumble in times of calamity.

Amen. But where in the Bible does it say so? Please post five passages you believe say so. Thank you.


Amen. I agree with you that newborn believers do not sin while they are consciously, actively, aggressively choosing to abide in Jesus. Thank you, Jesus.

What is the difference between Christians "shall fail often" and they "do not habitually sin"?


Are we supposed to interpret these words to mean newborn believers sin often?

Born-again believers do not forfeit the ability or freedom to sin. It's just that they do not and cannot commit a known sin while they are consciously, actively, aggressively choosing to abide in Jesus and partake of the divine nature. To commit a known sin, therefore, they must first neglect or refuse to abide in Jesus. We are not free to sin until we are free from sin.

Does the growth, learning, and abiding more and more in Jesus that you speak of mean sinning and repenting, sinning and repenting over and over again? Or, does it mean "perfecting holiness"?

1Jo 3:9 Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

What in this did you not understand?


It grieves me that I have said or written anything to grieve you. Forgive me and I will be cautious not to start any subject to annoy and distress you. We are living in a most solemn time and we cannot afford to have in our old age [ELLEN WHITE WAS 48 YEARS OF AGE AND HER HUSBAND WAS 54 WHEN THIS LETTER WAS WRITTEN.] differences to separate our feelings. I may not view all things as you do, but I do not think it would be my place or duty to try to make you see as I see and feel as I feel. Wherein I have done this, I am sorry. {DG 272.4}
I want a humble heart, a meek and quiet spirit. Wherein my feelings have been permitted to arise in any instance, it was wrong. Jesus has said, "Learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest unto your souls." Matthew 11:29. {DG 272.5}
I wish that self should be hid in Jesus. I wish self to be crucified. I do not claim infallibility, or even perfection of Christian character. I am not free from mistakes and errors in my life. Had I followed my Saviour more closely, I should not have to mourn so much my unlikeness to His dear image. {DG 272.6}

Some of them would be Rom. 6:6, 14, 18, 22; 8:2; Jude 24


None. True Christians never sin habitually, or never keep on sinning, although they occasionally succumb to temptation.


Are we supposed to interpret these words to mean newborn believers never commit sin and cannot sin (it’s impossible for them to sin)?

This is not what the passage, as you quoted it, says. Please read it again.

It means perfecting holiness, which sometimes involves sinning and repenting. However, I think the growth process involves many more sins of omission than sins of comission. When you fail to love or to demonstrate love as you should, you are sinning.

So you DO believe in "once saved always saved" EH? ******* STAFF EDIT TO REMOVE INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT *******

Truly being saved does not occur until Jesus comes down to get us! PERIOD!

1 John 3:9 is not saying that everyone who has been born again CANNOT sin. It is saying that if we abide IN CHRIST we do not sin.

******* STAFF EDIT TO REMOVE INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT *******

"Peter’s fall was not instantaneous, but gradual. Self-confidence led him to the belief that he was saved, and step after step was taken in the downward path, until he could deny his Master. Never can we safely put confidence in self or feel, this side of heaven, that we are secure against temptation. Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved. [Note from the White Trustees: It is the privilege of the Christian to know that on his acceptance of Christ he is saved from his [past] sins and can rejoice in this salvation. But neither the Scriptures nor the Spirit of Prophecy writings supports the popular teaching: “Once saved, always saved.” A person may be saved today, but failing to keep his eyes on Jesus and to grow daily in Him, may become self-confident and be lost tomorrow. The apostle Paul declared, “I die daily.” In a sense, conversion is a daily experience."] {NL 41.1}

(A Wise person would see this as saying that since you think you are saved right now, you are FULL OF YOURSELF! The devil teaches what you are teaching here.)

"Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves. They lose sight of their own weakness and their constant need of divine strength. They are unprepared for Satan’s devices, and under temptation many, like Peter, fall into the very depths of sin. We are admonished, “Let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall” (1 Corinthians 10:12). Our only safety is in constant distrust of self, and dependence on Christ." [Christ’s Object Lessons, 154, 155.] {NL 41.2}

Being born again is the first step in newness of life. When we are forgiven, we walk in forgiveness until we sin again, then we must be forgiven again. But while we are forgiven and walk in forgiveness, we have all of the power of heaven on our side to keep us from sinning. If you have not experienced this then what makes you think you are fit to teach others about the most important aspect of walking with Christ?

******* STAFF EDIT TO REMOVE INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT *******

Moses and Peter and David and Solomon had all received forgiveness for their sins (saved from their past sins) and walked in this forgiveness, or newness in the life of Christ, until they fell. Then they again repented for their sins, and were again restored into the life of Christ.

EVERY TIME WE SIN WE FALL. THIS DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAD NOT BEEN BORN AGAIN!

WHEN WE REPENT WE ARE RESTORED.

GOD WANTS US TO RECOGNIZE OUR WEAKNESS AND LEARN TO COMPLETELY SUBMIT TO THE POWER HE HOLDS OUT TO US THROUGH THE MEEKNESS OF HIS SON AS AN EXAMPLE.

JESUS WAS TEMPTED AND COULD HAVE FALLEN, UNTIL HE PASSED HIS TEST AND STRUGGLE IN THE GARDEN OF GETHSEMANE WHEN HE WAS SEALED WITH THE SPIRIT AND THE SECOND SIGN OF THE DOVE OVERSHADOWED HIM. THIS WAS SYMBOLIC OF THOSE WHO WILL STAND IN CHRIST AFTER THE END OF PROBATION. WHEN JESUS SAID, "NOT MY WILL FATHER, BUT YOUR WILL BE DONE" HE WAS SHOWING US THE PATH THAT SUSTAINS US IN HIM!

JESUS DID NOT OVERCOME SIN BY ANY OTHER POWER THAN WHAT IS AVAILABLE TO US. HE WANTS US TO SEE THIS SO WE CAN ATTAIN HIS FAITH.

These are all quintessential elements to salvation, and you don't get it but still feel as if you are promoted by God to be a teacher?

Romans 3:25
King James Version (KJV)

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

"Mark the humble life of the Son of God. He was a “man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief.” Behold his ignominy, his agony in Gethsemane, and learn what self-denial is... The warfare has been left in our hands by our great Leader for us to carry forward with vigor. We are not doing a twentieth part of what we might do if we were awake. The work is retarded by love of ease, and a lack of the self-denying spirit of which our Saviour has given us an example in his life," —Testimonies for the Church 3:406. {GW92 69.2}

"It is a fearful thing for the unrepenting sinner to fall into the hands of the living God. This is proved by the history of the destruction of the old world by a flood, by the record of the fire which fell from heaven and destroyed the inhabitants of Sodom. But never was this proved to so great an extent as in the agony of Christ, the Son of the infinite God, when He bore the wrath of God for a sinful world. It was in consequence of sin, the transgression of God’s law, that the Garden of Gethsemane has become pre-eminently the place of suffering to a sinful world. No sorrow, no agony, can measure with that which was endured by the Son of God." {5BC 1103.3}

"The Garden of Eden with its disobedience and the Garden of Gethsemane with its obedience are presented before us. What a costly work was that in Eden! How much was involved in the fatal eating of the forbidden tree! But many are following in the very same footprints, in disobedience, in breaking away from the law of God. When men selfishly enter a course of disobedience to God they go on imperceptibly. They do not calculate what the sure result will be when they enter the path of temptation, and make but feeble efforts to resist, and some make none at all. But when the scroll is unrolled, and God looks over it, He will find that He has been denied in that place, dishonored in another place; and as the roll is opened more and more, the results of un-Christlike actions are revealed. The Word of God was not fed upon, therefore their actions were not the result of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Son of God (Letter 69, 1897). {5BC 1103.5}
The Garden of Eden with its foul blot of disobedience, is to be carefully studied and compared with the Garden of Gethsemane, where the world’s Redeemer suffered superhuman agony when the sins of the whole world were rolled upon Him.... Adam did not stop to calculate the result of His disobedience (Manuscript 1, 1892). {5BC 1103.6}

John wrote, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not". I qualified what John wrote. Did I overstate or understate what he said?


In what sense does "perfecting holiness" include sinning?

Do these passages describe believers producing sin-stained fruits of the Spirit?


What is the difference between "shall fail often" and "occasionally succumb to temptation"?


We are supposed to interpret these words to mean newborn believers do not and cannot commit known sins while they are consciously choosing to abide in Jesus. It is impossible to commit known sins while thus connected to Christ. They must neglect or refuse to abide in Jesus to commit known sins.

I've never believed that. You didn't understand anything I said, which means it's useless to discuss with you.

When we repent and receive forgiveness, there is a peace that comes and strengthens our faith, the faith of Christ. When in faith, we are given power to walk in this strength to overcome sin, THIS is perfecting Holiness in Christ.

To say that sinning is part of the process is evil. Shame on you Rosangela.

Romans 6
English Standard Version (ESV)
Dead to Sin, Alive to God

6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Slaves to Righteousness

15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. (Not sin leading to sanctification)

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Mike, I'm not referring to 1 John 3:6, but to 1 John 3:9, which you also quoted:

Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The passage says nothing about abiding in Christ; it's speaking about being born again.


It does not include sinning. It involves the repentance of sins you inadvertently committed.

So you still are saying that it is essential to commit sin to be perfected?

******* STAFF EDIT TO REMOVE INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT *******

So you still are saying that it is essential to commit sin to be perfected?

******* STAFF EDIT TO REMOVE INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT *******

Being born again IS abiding in Christ!

If I wished to quote passages alluding to this, other passages would be quoted (and they were already quoted in other discussions).


The difference between sins of omission and sins of comission.


Again, the passage says nothing about that. The passage says that after you have been born again you cannot sin. Do you think that this translation is correct?

ADMIN HAT ON!!!

Thread is closed for Admin Team review.

ADMIN HAT OFF!!!

ADMIN HAT ON!!!

Posts have been edited where indicated and is, therefore, reopened for continued discussion.

ADMIN HAT OFF!!!

What a shame that people who claim to be God's messengers would use punitive actions against someone who they disagree with. Seems to be a flaw in our denomination actually.

Love those you disagree with:

http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2012-1528&page=7

Brother Johann, I truly do, and I am motivated to do so from our savior, but the bible says that even He despised the shame of it.

Hebrews 12:2 (ESV) "looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Perhaps I've always misunderstood the text, but my understanding of Jesus' "despising the shame" is that Jesus did not even consider it shameful and took no thought for the shame of it "for the joy that was set before him."

If you are in the right, there is no need to be ashamed. If, however, you are in the wrong, shame is natural and even appropriate. When sinners are "shameless," it shows they no longer have tender hearts, rather hardened ones with little or no feeling left.

Those who are nearing perfection will certainly feel ashamed for their own imperfections and weaknesses. How could they not?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Jesus despised the shame of having to deal with those who claim to be devoted to, and motivated by God, yet they persecuted Him. He mourned over Jerusalem, over those who killed the prophets sent to them.

They insisted they were correct, yet He was the one who was the perfect manifestation of the truth. He proved beyond a shadow of a doubt how much the Father loves us yet they killed Him for it.

At the beginning of His ministry and the end He cleansed the temple, He is doing this again now.

Mathematically there can only be ONE TRUTH. When someone who has not seen the truth pursues teaching, they cause contempt on the church. And they believe with all their soul they are correct, or they are doing a dark work against the church with contempt hidden in their hearts. But both the ignorant and the spies do a lot of damage when they insist they know the truth.

I present what my Lord has shown me through example, I have seen with my own eyes a good place. Everything in scripture supports the divine imagination of the Father. He made the system to look at, the perfect example to emulate through all the prophecies, ceremonies, allegories, every single teaching in scripture is for our example to guide us to the side of Jesus; our example. He showed me how it all fits together as a map to follow in getting to where God wants us to be. We imagine through God's prompting what He established and this brings us closer to Him through His divine instruction.

The motivation that brings me here, is for the love of God. He loves all of you and wants only the truth to be in your hearts so you are not encumbered by false theories and darkness. His teachings are being perfected again within the church, the remnant receiving the truth.

When God gives me an insight, He leads me to moments to bring these arguments to the world to begin the debate that always ensues, until acceptance. He GIVES me thoughts, He leads my mind in righteousness when I pray for His guidance.

Total pagans have testified how miraculously the prayers God has prompted me to pray were fulfilled. I have seen miracles through the Spirit of God. The way God answers our prayers shows where we are in context to God's will. If your prayers are not being answered, then you are either on the wrong track, praying for things not in His will, or the end of probation has come. But since He has not forsaken us, and the end of probation has been extended by holding of the four winds, we need to get right with His will so our prayers have effect.

This is done by listening to His word and after learning about His promises, through prayer test His word, and when He answers, this leads to receiving a greater measure of the faith of Jesus.

Hebrews 13:13(ESV)

"Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach (shame) he endured."

"We should continually keep before us the sacrifice that was made by our Saviour, lest we should think that we are making wonderful sacrifices in our Christian life. He made an infinite sacrifice that we might have eternal life. The Father made a sacrifice the greatness of which no man can comprehend. The angels of heaven were amazed when the Father consented to give his only Son for a fallen race. When we can approach to an appreciation of the sacrifice made by the Father and the Son, we shall have a better appreciation of the value of souls. We should not study our own ease, since Christ has died for us, but we should be willing to deny self, to go without the camp, bearing his reproach. {RH May 28, 1889, par. 2}

David, Moses, etc, were not even newborn believers but adult believers, and still they did sin, and doing known sin. But they repent. Were they not fall in the category Rosangela described?



Were David, Moses, etc, an exception? While they were adult believers.

What does abide in Christ mean?

According to me, it is our faith that abides in Him, not our selves (how can?)

So, when we sin, does we loose faith in Christ? Did Adam, David and Moses loose their faith in God/Christ when they did sin?

I never loose faith in Christ, but I still enjoy sinning at this time. So, am I not abiding in Christ?

Sinning willfully is a choice, abiding by faith in Christ is a knowledge. David did sin willfully, but I believe he didn't loose his faith in God/Christ. Adam did sin willfully, but he never loose his faith in God, how can, while he experience direct communication in front of the presence of God/Christ.

Maturing in the fruits of the Spirit according to me includes a sinning and repenting progress in this life. It is not a perfect sinless every day life for every one, including David, Moses, etc.

"There are those who profess holiness, who declare that they are wholly the Lord’s, who claim a right to the promises of God, while refusing to render obedience to His commandments. These transgressors of the law claim everything that is promised to the children of God; but this is presumption on their part, for John tells us that true love for God will be revealed in obedience to all His commandments. It is not enough to believe the theory of truth, to make a profession of faith in Christ, to believe that Jesus is no impostor, and that the religion of the Bible is no cunningly devised fable. “He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments,” John wrote, “is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.” “He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him.” 1 John 2:4, 5; 3:24. {AA 562.3}
John did not teach that salvation was to be earned by obedience; but that obedience was the fruit of faith and love. “Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins,” he said, “and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him.” 1 John 3:5, 6. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in the heart, our feelings, our thoughts, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God. The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God’s law. {AA 563.1}

Mr Saptenno, We should never use men who have fallen as our example.

There is one man who NEVER sinned, He is our example.

Jesus never used His divinity to keep from sinning. He used only what is available for men to keep them from sinning, faith in the word of the Father. The faith that Jesus had in His Father kept Him from sin. Even when He took the sin of the world upon His mind He did not sin.

Yes, they fall into the category Rosangela described. However, I totally disagree with her. People do sin after they experience rebirth in God's appointed way. It's just that they cannot do it while they are abiding in Jesus. That's what it says in the Bible in words too plain to distort or misunderstand.


No, they are not exceptions. They did not sin while they were abiding in Jesus. People sin when they neglect to abide in Jesus.


Yes, people abide in Jesus by faith through knowledge of the truth. People sin when they neglect to abide in Jesus by faith. Again, the Bible is too clear to misunderstand the truth.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Romans 7: (21st KJV)
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid! Nay, I would not have known sin, but through the law; for I would not have known lust, except that the law had said, “Thou shalt not covet.”
8 But sin, taking occasion through the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence; for without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died;
10 and the commandment, which was ordained to bring life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me and by it slew me.
12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid! But sin, that it might appear as sin, was working death in me by that which is good, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do, I know not. For what I would do, that do I not; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law, that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing; for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good, I find not.
19 For the good that I would do, I do not; but the evil which I would not do, that I do.
20 Now if I do that which I would not do, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Combining 1 Tim. 1:15 & Romans 7:7-25, I found out that even Paul did not live a sinless perfect life eversince his newborn day.

Verse 25: 21st KJV.
I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Thank God! Jesus Christ will rescue me.
So with my mind I serve the Law of God, although my selfish desires make me serve the law of sin. (CEV).

I like this version, giving a better view of what Paul meant.

Both thing happened in him, the war between sin that dwelt in him and the Spirit.

Although he went further saying:

Romans 8.
1. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

He admitted that the Spirit empowered him to overcome sin and be freed of it power, but that is when he follows the Spirit, meanwhile, he confessed earlier that he too sometimes did do what the flesh desires. He was freed from the power or desires of sin, which dwelt in his flesh, but this “sin” is still in the flesh, only at conversion of body at Jesus 2nd coming will he be totally get rid of it. So, sinless perfect life cannot be guaranteed, in other word, sinning is inevitable. He admitted this in verse 7:25, with his body his served the flesh desires, and in verses 8-24.

Looking to the fact that 1 Timothy 1:15 was written about the end of his ministry (62-62 AD – Wikipedia), meanwhile the letter to the Romans was written earlier (55AD-57AD – Wkipedia), I knew that Paul’s life is not of a sinless perfect life since the day of his newborn. Until the day he wrote his letter to Timothy, he admitted he IS still the chief of sinners (present tense).

My conclusion is that as according to Paul’s view, believers are saved by the grace of God as a gift, not as a reward for his efforts to live a sinless perfect life with the combine power of the Spirit, which when this is the target of believers, they will overruled Christ works on the cross and made it useless.

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, lest any man should boast.

Galatians 2:21.
I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

This eliminates whatsoever works, even the combine powers of the Spirit and our will to keep all God’s commandments in order not to sin or to remain righteous, moreover if the target is to reach a sinless perfect condition as a prerequisite to enter heaven and live eternally.

1. Paul said the "Spirit empowered him to overcome sin and be freed of it power . . . when he follows the Spirit . . . [nevertheless] sinning is inevitable." Not sinning is a reality while abiding in Jesus. "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."

2. "I knew that Paul’s life is not of a sinless perfect life since the day of his newborn." Only Jesus lived a perfect, sinless life from birth to death. People live without sinning only while they are abiding in Jesus.

3. ". . . believers are saved by the grace of God as a gift, not as a reward for his efforts to live a sinless perfect life with the combine power of the Spirit, which when this is the target of believers, they will overruled Christ works on the cross and made it useless." Amen. We are saved based solely on what Jesus did and does for us. "Righteousness and true holiness," the fruit of the Spirit, does not serve to save us. However, refusing or neglecting to abide in Jesus results in sinning and prevents Jesus from being able to save us.

Shouldn't our focus then be on abiding in Jesus, not on whether or not we are sinning?

You're thanking God that you believe that Paul was still sinning after conversion? What is this? Are you for real?

Paul was not speaking for himself, he was speaking hypothetically, saying in essence IF he was sinning.

In verse 24 of that same chapter (Roman 7) just before what you quoted he says "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?" Then he says in answer to this question in verse 25 was "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord".

It is hypothetical because he had already been delivered from the death by accepting Christ Jesus.

He was speaking sympathetically for men who have not been delivered from sin.

Paul is one of the most intellectual men who wrote in scripture and what he says is very hard to comprehend says Peter. What makes you thank God even if he was sinning? Does it make you feel better that someone else falls to sin? This is very disturbing.

If Paul was still considering himself losing to battle of the warring flesh why would he write this at the beginning of that Chapter?

Romans 1(ASV)
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated (sanctified/ Holy) unto the gospel of God,

2 which he promised afore through his prophets in the holy scriptures,

3 concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,

4 who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; even Jesus Christ our Lord,

5 through whom we received grace and apostleship, unto obedience of faith among all the nations, for his name's sake;

6 among whom are ye also called to be Jesus Christ's:

7 To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Oh, but Paul was still getting a little on the side right? God says it's OK to serve Him and go out and party after the Sabbath right? As long as he differentiates when he is in the mind of Christ and when he is being slave to sin it's ok?

HOW TO ATTAIN CHRISTIAN PERFECTION;

"Enoch walked with God three hundred years previous to his translation to heaven, and the state of the world was not then more favorable for the perfection of Christian character than it is today. And how did Enoch walk with God? He educated his mind and heart to ever feel that he was in the presence of God, and when in perplexity his prayers would ascend to God to keep him. {LDE 71.1}
He refused to take any course that would offend his God. He kept the Lord continually before him. He would pray, “Teach me Thy way, that I may not err. What is Thy pleasure concerning me? What shall I do to honor Thee, my God?” Thus he was constantly shaping his way and course in accordance with God’s commandments, and he had perfect confidence and trust in his heavenly Father, that He would help him. He had no thought or will of his own. It was all submerged in the will of his Father. {LDE 71.2}
Now Enoch was a representative of those who will be upon the earth when Christ shall come, who will be translated to heaven without seeing death.—Sermons and Talks 1, 32 (1886). {LDE 71.3}
Enoch had temptations as well as we. He was surrounded with society no more friendly to righteousness than is that which surrounds us. The atmosphere he breathed was tainted with sin and corruption the same as ours, yet he lived a life of holiness. He was unsullied with the prevailing sins of the age in which he lived. So may we remain pure and uncorrupted."—Testimonies for the Church 2:122 (1868). {LDE 71.4}

For Mr Saptenno who was so grateful for Paul to sin...

"The opposition grew so fierce that Paul was not allowed to continue his labors at Damascus. A messenger from heaven bade him leave for a time, and he “went into Arabia” (Galatians 1:17), where he found a safe retreat. {AA 125.2}

Here, in the solitude of the desert, Paul had ample opportunity for quiet study and meditation. He calmly reviewed his past experience and made sure work of repentance. He sought God with all his heart, resting not until he knew for a certainty that his repentance was accepted and his sin pardoned. He longed for the assurance that Jesus would be with him in his coming ministry. He emptied his soul of the prejudices and traditions that had hitherto shaped his life, and received instruction from the Source of truth. Jesus communed with him and established him in the faith, bestowing upon him a rich measure of wisdom and grace. {AA 125.3}
When the mind of man is brought into communion with the mind of God, the finite with the Infinite, the effect on body and mind and soul is beyond estimate. In such communion is found the highest education. It is God’s own method of development. “Acquaint now thyself with Him” (Job 22:21), is His message to mankind. {AA 126.1}

And this was BEFORE he wrote the book to the Romans.

Mr Saptanno, if you need prayer for something you are not able to let go of, ask and ye shall receive. I will pray for you, just ask.

Amen

Thanks MM.

With what you presented here all this time, I knew your thought about the theme of a sinless perfect life, and with your answers to my opinions, I think we are in common.

Thanks JamesthesonofGod.

You and I may have a little differences in our view about reaching a sinless perfect life in our Christian walk.

Even I believe too that sin can be overcome as long as we abide in Jesus by faith, but I still feel not comfortable by the idea that we can have this life ever since we are reborn.

It didn't work with me, I still sin and still enjoy sin till this time, but I knew and believe that if my target is to be with Jesus in the eternal world, I must bring my self to His desires and standards, not mine.

So, one day I will not enjoying sin any longer, even I may still sin, but later on I may have this sinless perfect life when I hate sinning and what the world could offer.

And between those days, I'm sure I will not loose faith in Christ and leaning fully on His grace and forgiveness, to be in His righteousness alone.

Thus, according to me, to reach a sinless perfect life stage is not impossible, but not a state continues ever since we were reborn, but a life time progress, and I see here, many have the same thought.

I'm afraid he was talking about himself.



Just stating a fact, that even Paul has not a sinless perfect life ever since he was reborn. 1 Timothy 1:15 approve that.



Besides what he wrote about his personal experience about the war in his flesh, and that he too may serve the flesh, his own will from time to time, he didn't taught us the way you said, but just explaining a fact that is very important for our Christian's walk.

Mr Saptenno,

This is a very important subject, and I want to be perfectly clear to you what you are doing...

You are accusing Paul of committing a sin, yet you have not produced what that sin is. This is contemptible in the heavenly court.

If you are correct, supply the evidence, if you are wrong, you are bearing false witness against an apostle.

Weigh your words carefully.

To my knowledge Paul was even the one to correct Peter for being two faced in front of other Jews and new converts of the Gentile origin. So Paul's clarity in truth was sharper, and when Peter realized his error, he supported what Paul said and repented for spearheading a revolt against the truth.

In the quote you use against Paul, when he said in 1 Timothy 1:15(ESV) "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost" he was talking about his past. He was thanking Jesus in praise for saving him from himself. Giving him a new life, a new beginning.

This is the gist of the message in Steps to Christ where she even makes the claim that when temptations attack us all we need is to say the important name "Jesus".

There is no magic in the word itself, but calling His name is a call, a prayer, that He will abide in us.

Brother Johann,

it is not clear your intention of the quote but,

I love that quote from Phil 3

12 "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."

This does not say Paul is sinning, it is not a confession of repentance, but says he does not consider himself perfected yet. In fact this quote points to the fact that Paul has not fallen in the race because he is still pressing on in the faith of Jesus. Coming from such a humbled man this is as much proof as any that he has not sinned since his conversion.

The Spirit of Prophecy says that a humble man would never say he is "saved" or "perfected " yet, not until the race is won when Jesus comes back to get us.

In fact at the end of his ministry Paul said in 2 Timothy 4:7 (ESV) "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith."

Here is another point, Paul had millions of people watching him. He had kings witnessing his every move.

His faith was so strong, not one person convicted him of sin after his awesome conversion. He always acknowledged God's providence in saving him from himself. This is not an easy thing to accomplish.

When he stood before kings he was not accused of anything that could stick, just like Jesus. But he was open in how his role in what the Jews were doing to Christ through His followers was the epitome of evil, openly calling the plots from hell.

He sang songs of praise to God while they tried to boil him in oil and he walked out of the scalding hot oil alive!

He was flogged over and over and not once did he sin in all of it, by submission to the will of the Father he was from sin.

Now do you think this would be possible with a man who was getting some on the side?

Even Paul would not say he had reached perfection though, as he was constantly having to struggle against the sin that seem to pull and tear at him.

Paul once believe he was perfect righteous and blameless against the law. ............"as to the righteousness before the law, blameless" (Phil. 3:6). This is said when he was a Pharisee named Saul.

After his conversion, he find out so many sins in him, which he came to know from the commandment "Do not covet". He thought he understood the law well as a Pharisee and thus stand perfect before the Law, but he admitted "I live apart from the law once".

After his conversion he JUST knew what sin is, and he found out that the law bring not life to him but death, because sin revive in him after his conversion and because of his sins he died. No wonder he admitted, as an apostle of God, "I am the chief of sinners." For sure he might feel so.

Romans 7.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid! Nay, I would not have known sin, but through the law; for I would not have known lust, except that the law had said, “Thou shalt not covet.”
8 But sin, taking occasion through the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence; for without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died;
10 and the commandment, which was ordained to bring life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me and by it slew me.

Pauline epistle is all what grace could say for sinners saved by grace, a progressive walk with the Spirit to overcome sin.

You're absolutely right Brother. I mentioned that same thing in post number 146124 a couple of posts ago.

Quote;

"This does not say Paul is sinning, it is not a confession of repentance, but says he does not consider himself perfected yet. In fact this quote points to the fact that Paul has not fallen in the race because he is still pressing on in the faith of Jesus. Coming from such a humbled man this is as much proof as any that he has not sinned since his conversion.

The Spirit of Prophecy says that a humble man would never say he is "saved" or "perfected " yet, not until the race is won when Jesus comes back to get us.

In fact at the end of his ministry Paul said in 2 Timothy 4:7 (ESV) "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith."

Peace.

You still have not given evidence that you claim that Paul was sinning after conversion.

The way you use Romans 7 is questionable beyond belief.

"Paul’s Marvelous Change —Paul says that “as touching the law”—as far as outward acts were concerned—he was “blameless”, but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, when he looked into the holy mirror, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by a human standard, he had abstained from sin, but when he looked into the depths of God’s law, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation, and confessed his guilt. He did not go away from the mirror and forget what manner of man he was, but he exercised genuine repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. He was washed, he was cleansed. He says, “I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.” {6BC 1076.5}
Sin then appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem was gone. He became humble. He no longer ascribed goodness and merit to himself. He ceased to think more highly of himself than he ought, and he ascribed all the glory to God. He was no longer ambitious for greatness. He ceased to want to avenge himself, and was no longer sensitive to reproach, neglect, or contempt. He no longer sought earthly alliance, station, or honor. He did not pull others down to uplift himself. He became gentle, condescending, meek and lowly of heart, because he had learned his lesson in the school of Christ. He talked of Jesus and His matchless love, and grew more and more into His image. He bent his whole energy to win souls to Christ. When trial came upon him because of his unselfish labor for souls, he bowed in prayer, and his love for them increased. His life was hid with Christ in God, and he loved Jesus with all the ardor of his nature. Every church was dear to him; every church member was a person of interest to him; for he looked upon every soul as the purchase of the blood of Christ (The Review and Herald, July 22, 1890). {6BC 1076.6}

Pauls was a true conversion. What he meant in Romans 7 is that he thought he was righteous until he met Jesus, then he could see where he was wrong and he repented. This is how sin was revived not that he started to sin, but the remembrance of his past sins caused him to repent in sincerity of heart.

The truth in this is very difficult for most people to comprehend, and yet it is a very important part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus made it clear who will be counted righteous:

Luke 7

Further in Luke 18:

If he was talking about his past, why did he say: "I am?" Why not "I was?" Saying "I am", when he wrote this letter, he was talking of his present condition, whatever sin or sins he had done and still doing it, make him could not say "I was."

Is there a miss-interpretation from the original Greek word?

This quotes from EGW is correct I can accept that, but the question with Paul, did he live a continuous sinless perfect life ever after his conversion or not? reading his epistle in Romans 7, I doubt about it, seeing that he still serving two masters, the law with his mind and sin with his body.

He shouted:"24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Again in present tense.

But thanks God, through Jesus Christ, he was always forgiven and stand righteous in Him because of his faith.

There is no problem with the Greek here.

Paul's greatest weakness was his earnest desire for salvation, and gaining many with him. He had this strange notion, which he had learned from Christ, that he might remain a sinner for the first five thousand years in heaven, or there would not be any place for him there. Paul is hoping that you and I understand this as well.

I fear that in case anyone gets the notion that after a while in Heaven he can manage himself for the rest of eternity so he does not need a savior any more, he would go the same way as Lucifer. But there is not much danger of that, because nobody gets to Heaven unless he commits himself so fully to the Savior Jesus Christ, that his commitment will last for ever. But it helps to read the Gospels and the writings of Paul to understand that message. And Ellen White is of the same opinion.

Our eternal life is only obtainable through an eternal connection with the only source of LIFE, through Jesus Christ. Without that we remain lost sinners, but with that we are saved sinners.

I have not given any texts here. I expect the honest Bereans will look that up themselves. We need to study the Word for ourselves, and not rely on anybody else.

Look at what Mrs White said about this exact quote "wretched man".

"Paul realized his weakness, and well he might distrust his own strength. Referring to the law, he says, “The commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.” He had trusted in the deeds of the law. He says, concerning his own outward life, that as “touching the law” he was “blameless”; and he put his trust in his own righteousness. But when the mirror of the law was held up before him, and he saw himself as God saw him, full of mistakes, stained with sin, he cried out, “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” {LHU 40.2}
Paul beheld the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. He heard the voice of Christ saying, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” He determined to avail himself of the benefits of saving grace, to become dead to trespasses and sins, to have his guilt washed away in the blood of Christ, to be clothed with Christ’s righteousness, to become a branch of the Living Vine. He walked with Christ, and Jesus became to him—not a part of salvation, while his own good deeds were another part, but—his all in all, the first and last and best in everything. He had the faith that draws life from Christ, that enabled him to conform his life to that of the divine example. This faith claims nothing for its possessor because of his righteousness, but claims everything because of the righteousness of Christ. {LHU 40.3} (The Signs of the Times, November 24, 1890).

Paul was talking about his past sins, and after he was humbled he dwelt in Christ

It would be prudent for those who were wrong to repent for their indiscretion. But I wont hold my breath.

Good, my friend, because if you hold your breath too long it would be a serious sin!

To Mr Septanno; I was praying about this conversation and your assertion that Paul was sinning after conversion, and then I saw a friend of mine online giving a sermon and he in essence gave me the answer to our dispute.

Go to Romans chapter 8, just after the quote you insist details Paul's inability to stay away from sin. It says...
Romans 8 (ASV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

And the chapter ends with

39 ...nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Johann, are you serious? Your a retired pastor and you make jokes on these subjects against someone defending the message of truth? You sure have posted a lot this month out of no where and start taking me on like you have a mission?

Jesus teaches us that we sin in our thoughts, even if there is no action.

We sin when we do not use our time right

We sin when we do not have order in our things.

Are we fully free from sin?

"My friend" you are also saying Paul was sinning?

Romans 8 (ASV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

From the moment Paul was knocked off his high-horse, he repented and dwelt IN CHRIST as a perfect representative for what may be accomplished IN CHRIST!

"Thus the Lord had given Paul his commission to enter the broad missionary field of the Gentile world. To prepare him for this extensive and difficult work, God had brought him into close connection with Himself and had opened before his enraptured vision views of the beauty and glory of heaven. To him had been given the ministry of making known “the mystery” which had been “kept secret since the world began” (Romans 16:25),—“the mystery of His will” (Ephesians 1:9), “which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel: whereof,” declares Paul, “I was made a minister.... Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; and to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: to the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Ephesians 3:5-11. {AA 159.2}

Do you think this is possible to be accomplished by someone who is not as convicted and as repentant as Enoch or Elijah? God would not permit Paul into His heavenly counsel unless he was fully convicted and made perfectly clean by the blood of the lamb.

Good point. Not sinning is not perfection. Just because Jesus empowers us to cease sinning it does not mean we have reached perfection. In fact, eternity is not long enough for us to exhaust our ability to "perfect holiness". Thank you, Jesus.

Paul did not consider himself perfected, because the person he was emulating was so much more perfect. Jesus continually grew in perfection through resistance to evil, and Paul considered himself insignificant comparably, but before the Father Paul was seen through the Character and record of the merits in Christ. Christs righteousness mixed with his prayers and people came back from the dead!

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth how to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

This verse covers a wide range of sinning area without we realize about it.

If Johan is a retired pastor, MM is an active pastor, why not comment on his writing?

2. "I knew that Paul’s life is not of a sinless perfect life since the day of his newborn." Only Jesus lived a perfect, sinless life from birth to death. People live without sinning only while they are abiding in Jesus.

He clearly agree with me that is against you.

Scripture makes it clear that our Lord Jesus Christ is the only person who has ever lived on this planet who never sinned. Therefore we are all sinners, with no exception, and Isa 59 makes it clear that our iniquities separate us from God. Through this separation we are not connected with the only source of immortality, and that is the reason why all sinners die.

God has made provision for a sinner to be re-connected to the source of immortality through Jesus Christ, and this connection makes the sinner a redeemed sinner. The moment this connection is broken the sinner is again a lost sinner. This is why a sinner has to make a full commitment to Jesus Christ which is so strong that it will last through all eternity.

When Paul moves from Romans 7 to 8 he is describing what happens to him as he accepts Jesus Christ, and how joyful he, a sinner, is what his sins are no longer counted against him. His connection with the source of immortality has been established through Jesus Christ.

Although he is still a sinner, he has received forgiveness and the grace which gives him the strength, also through the Holy Spirit, not to live in sin but to live in Jesus Christ.

Jesus makes it clear that He only came to save sinners. I hope you are one of them?

CHAPTER
9
The Man of Romans Seven


People who experience the miracle of rebirth or conversion are very excited about being like Jesus. Being kind and loving and patient is so awesome, so satisfying. Knowing that it pleases God, ah, there’s nothing like it – a piece of paradise. Thank you, Jesus! And then an unholy thought and feeling crashes the party. Yuk! Where did that come from? Bummer! I’m sure you know what I’m talking about. Living in a world and flesh full of sin stinks. Can’t wait for heaven, eh!

In the book of Romans Paul reveals, in his unique, original way, that he is very much like us. He records a graphic, first-person account of the battle that wages within all of us. As every faithful disciple of Jesus can attest, our fallen nature bombards us every day with unholy thoughts and feelings and, as brave soldiers of the cross, we must steadfastly resist them, we must keep them under control.

Man of Romans Seven
Here is how Paul explains the origin and essence of our internal warfare:

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is pre-sent with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:14–25)

Clear as mud, right? Leave it to Paul. Actually, though, his description makes perfect sense if you understand the difference between the mind of the new man and the mind of sinful flesh. Our fallen flesh has, as it were, a mind and voice of its own. “Human nature is ever struggling for expression, ready for contest ...” (MB 15) It continually tempts us with unholy thoughts and feelings. But it cannot commit a sin. “The words ‘flesh’ or ‘fleshly’ or ‘carnal lusts’ embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God.” (AH 127)

First of all, to understand this difficult passage, we need to remember that the origin of the thing that Paul, and the rest of us, hates is “the sin that dwelleth in me... that is, in my flesh.” The “sin that dwelleth” in us is a reference to the unholy thoughts and feelings produced by our fallen flesh. The one thing sinful flesh can “do” that we find so detestable is tempt us to be unlike Jesus. But the one thing it cannot “do”, as already mentioned, is commit a sin.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. (Galatians 5:17)

God implants within us, the moment we are born again, the mind of the new man. Between the mind of the new man and the mind of sinful flesh we have, as it were, two minds. The warfare between these two minds is the source of our inner turmoil. Or, as one man put it, “The nature of our warfare is the warfare of our nature.” In Romans Seven, however, Paul uses only one personal pronoun, “I”, to represent both minds, which makes things somewhat confusing.

In order to clear up the confusion we must determine which “I” refers to the mind of the new man and which “I” refers to the mind of fallen flesh. The context, as usual, makes it obvious. For example: “For that which I [sinful flesh] do, I [new man] allow not: for what I [new man] would, that do I [sinful flesh] not; but what I [new man] hate, that do I [sinful flesh].” (Romans 7:15) Let’s paraphrase this verse by replacing each “I” with the appropriate name:

Our sinful flesh wants us to do things our new man will not allow us to do. On the other hand, our new man wants us to do things our sinful flesh does not want us to do. In fact, the things our new man hates with a passion are the very things our sinful flesh wants us to do.

Did that help? I hope so! It is also very helpful to note that Paul twice repeats the phrase, “It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.” See verses 17 and 20. Some people accuse Paul of blame shifting, that is, blaming his sinful behavior on his fallen flesh. But this clearly is not the case. Paul is the original zealot. He would never excuse sinful behavior. On the contrary, this phrase pinpoints the origin and source of the unholy thoughts and feelings that come to mind.

In Romans chapter six Paul clearly says, “Our old man is crucified . . . he that is dead is freed from sin”. In chapter seven, therefore, he feels compelled to address the following obvious but unspoken questions: “If our old man is truly dead, and if we are truly free from sin why, then, are we being harassed with unholy thoughts and feelings? Are we still guilty of producing them? Or, is something else doing it?” The answer is, “It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.” In other words, we must not blame ourselves for their presence, we must not assume we are guilty of producing them. Sinful flesh is the one guilty of doing it, which is why Paul uses the word “do” to answer our unspoken questions.

Even though we have been born again, “evil is present” within us. We live, as it were, in “captivity”. And, sorry to say, we will not be delivered “from the body of this death” until Jesus returns and rewards us with a sinless body and nature. Ro-mans 7:21-24. So, in the meantime, we must not allow ourselves to cherish or act out the unholy thoughts and feelings that regularly torment us. Like Paul, we must keep our eyes on Jesus and rigorously resolve, “I allow not”, which is another way of saying “Get thee behind me, Satan”. Not that sinful flesh and Satan are one and the same, because clearly they are not; however, they have the same goal – to tempt us to sin, to be unlike Jesus.

Paul was in such constant dread, lest his evil propensities should get the better of him, that he was constantly battling, with firm resistance, unruly appetites and passions. If the great apostle felt like trembling in view of his weakness, who has a right to feel self-confident and boast-ful? The moment we begin to feel self-sufficient and confident then we are in danger of a disgraceful failure. (TDG 277)

The Man Jesus
Paul goes on to explain how even Jesus had to resist the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh nature. It should comfort us to know that Jesus can identify with our circumstances. Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh and condemned the sin in His flesh by resisting the temptations it generated and communicated.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1–4)

The example and experience of Jesus proves we are neither guilty of, nor respon-sible for, the unholy thoughts and feelings our sinful flesh produces. Nevertheless, like Jesus, we are responsible to resist them, to rein them in. “The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not over-come. Christ came to make us ‘partakers of the divine nature,’ and His life de-clares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin.” (MH 180)

The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan’s temptations without di-vine power to combine with his instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ; He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God’s Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God’s power to help in every emergency. Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome eve-ry temptation wherewith he is beset. (OHC 48)

PS - The post above is extracted from an online book. I cannot figure out how to cut and paste documents and preserve the original format. Here's the link to the book.

I cannot believe he didn't correct you on this statement and instead went off on some quote from a book no one has heard about, but to each his own I guess on this website. I wouldn't expect him to support me even if we are saying the same thing. And by the way, I give sermons at my church once a month, and to several other churches when asked, but I am not an ordained pastor and neither is he.

Mr Saptenno, if you look at the words brother Mountain Man said, he said people do not sin since the day of being a 'newborn', then he said "People live without sinning only while they are abiding in Jesus" or since RE-birth in Christ. Paul was born again and stayed in Christ from that day till his death.

So he was not siding with you on this statement unless you think we are born again from birth now?

Why did you not correct him on this M&M?

I don't know if Paul lived without sinning from day he experienced rebirth. It is certainly possible to do so. The Bible and the SOP are clear about it. Most people, however, fail to live without sinning from the day they experience rebirth. I, for one, have sinned since the day I experienced rebirth. Thank God for the promise in 1 John 2:1-2.

I have lived a sinless perfect life i guess ever since the day I was reborn in 1981, it stayed for about 2-3 years, and then I gradually fell back in to sin. I don't know why, may because of my surrounding where I work as a seaman. But one thing for sure, that it was my best and most happy life having peace with God and my self.

Since then I couldn't maintain this sinless perfect life, there was always a reason that brought me back to a life for the flesh. But I believe that a sinless perfect life is truly possible, for I had experienced it.

I think Matthew 20:1-16 tell us that it is never too late for believers to reach this stage.

The only question that still bothered me, if there is some sinful habits that lead not to death (1 John 5:16), what God would do with this habits? Erased it from the mind of the saved and made them perfect? Also what is sin that lead not to death?

"If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."

Sins of ignorance do not lead unto death. God "winks" at sins of ignorance. Jesus paid the penalty for sins committed in ignorance. Experienced Christians should help new believers discern sins of ignorance in light of the cross.

So you went 3 years without sinning but deny the Spirit of Prophecy? Are you sure you know what perfection is?

Perfection is living in the faith of Jesus, His merits covering you completely, which opens the storehouse of truth which would NEVER DENY THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY like you do on other websites.

Paul did not deny the Spirit of Prophecy, in fact he was a conduit for God. If you deny the Spirit of Prophecy and say that you do not sin, you are calling God a liar.

So is that what you are doing Mr Saptenno? Are you saying you were perfect for three years without the Spirit of Prophecy?

Thanks.

But a bit more clearer will you?

What kind of ignorance? Ignoring parents? ignoring the law? Ignoring God?

The word "ignore" does not mean ignorance. Sins of ignorance are sins people commit without realizing it. They have no idea it is a sin. For example, ignorantly breaking the Sabbath.

Brother Saptenno, since I am married to a woman from Indonesia I know how difficult it is to translate between the languages.

Ignorance means to be unaware. To ignore means to not pay attention to.

Ignorance translated to Indonesian is; ketidaktahuan, or kebodohan.

Ignore is; mengabaikan or abaikan.

OK, clear. Thanks.

Then those who were and are not a Sabbath keeper, for this special condition, will be granted pardon universally?

Very well pak, thanks.

Are you still using a dictionary, or in fact you speak and wrote indonesian language? Just curios.

So, sinning in 1 John 5:16, as you said is sinning of ignorance that lead not to death, is not the same sin as in James 4:17, which is doing not what we knew is good?

I think it is the same.

Are you really Indonesian?

During my lifetime I have dealt with salvation in at least six different languages besides quite a number where I had to work through interpreters. There is a babel of tongues in this world. And there different people and different traditions and different opinions.

It is interesting that many Americans give occasion to think they are of the opinion that it is impossible to be a true Christian - or a true Seventh-day Adventist - without having a reasonable knowledge of the English language.

One reason for this could be that because many have had the opinion that God Himself provided the wording of the King James Version of the Bible and that it is the only true Bible.

It has given occasion to developing a unique system of defining the words used in the process of salvation, such as repentance, justification, regeneration, sanctification. . .

Do we take such pride in our knowledge of definitions that it places Jesus in s Shadow?

Yes, people who commit sins of ignorance are not counted guilty.

Good question. We, my wife and I, pray every day for Jesus to protect us from losing sight of Him.

Oh yes.

Saya WNI asli

That is also something God has shown me, if I may...

When I was led to the Sabbath by the Holy Spirit, I had read the word 'sanctify' and it seemed to have a completely different meaning when I heard the general opinion of what it was by others in the faith who were less convicted on Spiritual effectiveness.

I was shown that, when men do not want to let go of different sins in their life, it sways their comprehension of truth because of the searing of the conscience, and they end up being a shell of a Christian, barely by name sometimes.

But I have also seen God bring a man through that state of lukewarmness to become a warrior of truth. God can use the fall of men to keep them from falling in the future but this is not how He wants it to be. This is God's last resort stuff. It's not safe to make your nest above the abyss.