Salvation of the wicked !!!

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God in His Word and Christ in His teachings emphasized both the reward of the faithful, in order to encourage us, and the reward of the wicked, in order to warn us.

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Suppose we were to take God out of the picture, would we need salvation?

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Originally posted by Rosangela:
And if there is no punishment for sin, why to abstain from the pleasures of sin?

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R: If there is no heaven, why am I going to serve a Being I will never see, hear or touch?

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R: And if there is no punishment for sin, why to abstain from the pleasures of sin?

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"If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied" (1 Cor. 15:19) "What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, 'Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.'" (v. 32)

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Do we only need salvation from the punishment for sin?

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Is sin so favorable or benign?

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Is the punishment the problem?

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Suppose you were to live forever - in sin, would you see the need for salvation?

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If there is no heaven, why am I going to serve a Being I will never see, hear or touch?

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R: Suppose God exists (so we don’t take God out of the picture) but there is no heaven and no hell; death is the end of everything.

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Tom: The "most important" part of sin is that it separates one from God, which causes pain, misery, suffering, and eventually death.

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I don’t get it Tom, according to Rosangela it is God who measures out and causes pain, misery, suffering, and eventually death.

Seems like God = sin.

This clear message is getting more confusing.

Rosangela says that it is no fun to live without God's presence, yet it is he who causes pain, misery, suffering, and eventually death. So what is the better deal?

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Taking God out of the picture? Without the Holy Spirit to act in the heart? Probably not.

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according to Rosangela it is God who measures out and causes pain, misery, suffering, and eventually death.

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Is the glory of God, which we are short of, the ability to destroy so wonderfully?

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and so far, according to Rosangela, it looks like I need to be saved from God's glory.

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Should God's means be used to perpetuate sin forever?

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The text is clear that it could be used to perpetuate sin forever. Otherwise it wouldn't have been necessary to prevent man from partaking of it.

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R: You need to be saved from sind and destruction. When God's glory destroys sin, if you are identified with sin God's glory will destroy you.

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But that is just the point.

According to you, if I am saved from God's glory, then I am saved from destruction, and as such sin is not destroyed, so I remain in sin - saved from God.

By the way, how do I get saved from sin and destruction?

The destruction seems to be God's glory, and sin ... well ... what is that? Seems like sin is the avoidance of that destruction (glory)!?

What kind of salvation are you offering and from what?

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What kind of salvation are you offering and from what?

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Your idea seems to be, if I am understanding it correctly, that God will kill the wicked because of their sin.

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However, if the wicked had eaten from the tree of life, they would have lived forever?

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Lift up your head and look away from yourself, away from your sin, to the uplifted Saviour; away from the poisonous, venomous bite of the serpent to the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world. (LHU 256)

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Tom: Neither Rom. 5:9 nor 1 Thes. 1:10 speaks of the "wrath of God" (it just says "wrath").

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A Propitiation. A propitiation is a sacrifice. The statement then is simply that Christ is set forth to be a sacrifice for the remission of our sins. "Once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Heb. 9:26. Of course the idea of a propitiation or sacrifice is that there is wrath to be appeased. But take particular notice that it is we who require the sacrifice, and not God. He provides the sacrifice. The idea that God's wrath has to be propitiated in order that we may have forgiveness finds no warrant in the Bible.

It is the height of absurdity to say that God is so angry with men that he will not forgive them unless something is provided to appease his wrath, and that therefore he himself offers the gift to himself, by which he is appeased. "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death." Col. 1:21, 22.

Heathen and Christian Propitiation. The Christian idea of propitiation is that set forth above. The heathen idea, which is too often held by professed Christians, is that men must provide a sacrifice to appease the wrath of their god. All heathen worship is simply a bribe to their gods to be favourable to them. If they thought that their gods were very angry with them, they would provide a greater sacrifice, and so human sacrifices were offered in extreme cases. They thought, as the worshipers of Siva in India do to-day, that their god was gratified by the sight of blood.

The persecution that was carried on in so-called Christian countries in times past and is to some extent even now, is but the outcropping of this heathen idea of propitiation. Ecclesiastical leaders imagine that salvation is by works and that men by works can atone for sin, and so they offer the one whom they think rebellious as a sacrifice to their god not to the true God, because he is not pleased with such sacrifices. " target="_blank">http://www.nisbett.com/righteousness/aor/rom03.htm[/quote]

This is well put, I think. It was Jones and Waggoner's teaching on justification by faith which EGW so heartily endorsed.

The first underlined statement makes the point that the idea of propitiation is that there is wrath to be appeased. It also makes the point that there is we who need the sacrifice, and not God. So the inescapable conclusion would seem to me to be that it is that it is our wrath which needs to be propitiated.

To put it in another way, it is we who are not right with God ("estamos de mal com Deus" -- I like the Portuguese expression; there's no really good one in English I can think of. The closest that comes to mind is to be at odds with someone.) He is "right with us" (estar de bem conosco).

The gift of Christ is reconcile us to God. God needs no reconciling. He so loved us, He gave us His Son.

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The same power that upholds nature, is working also in man. The same great laws that guide alike the star and the atom control human life. The laws that govern the heart's action, regulating the flow of the current of life to the body, are the laws of the mighty Intelligence that has the jurisdiction of the soul. From Him all life proceeds. Only in harmony with Him can be found its true sphere of action. For all the objects of His creation the condition is the same--a life sustained by receiving the life of God, a life exercised in harmony with the Creator's will. To transgress His law, physical, mental, or moral, is to place one's self out of harmony with the universe, to introduce discord, anarchy, ruin. (Ed 99)

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Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

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By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

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Originally posted by Rosangela:
Of course I agree that sin brings mental misery, pain and suffering. But suppose the physical effects of sin are eliminated. Is sin still lethal in itself?

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Satan has transgressed God's law, and should be dead. The only reason that Satan is not dead is that God is actively intervening to keep Him alive.

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A number of your posts seem to have a Deistic quality to them, as if God wound things up and things go on without God having to do anything.

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But as to your proclaiming angels were created immortal: Can you sustain that with some back-up, please? The Word says that only God has immortality, unconditionally. All other creations are dependent.

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Suppose the physical effects of AIDS is removed, is it still lethal? Suppose the physical effects of shooting oneself in the head with a shotgun is removed, is it still lethal? etc etc

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Of course the idea of a propitiation or sacrifice is that there is wrath to be appeased. But take particular notice that it is we who require the sacrifice, and not God. He provides the sacrifice. The idea that God's wrath has to be propitiated in order that we may have forgiveness finds no warrant in the Bible.

It is the height of absurdity to say that God is so angry with men that he will not forgive them unless something is provided to appease his wrath, and that therefore he himself offers the gift to himself, by which he is appeased.

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To transgress His law, physical, mental, or moral, is to place one's self out of harmony with the universe, to introduce discord, anarchy, ruin. (Ed 99)

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Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished. (DA 764)

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"The work of Christ in cleansing the leper from his terrible disease is an illustration of His work in cleansing the soul from sin. The man who came to Jesus was "full of leprosy." Its deadly poison permeated his whole body. The disciples sought to prevent their Master from touching him; for he who touched a leper became himself unclean. But in laying His hand upon the leper, Jesus received no defilement. His touch imparted life-giving power. The leprosy was cleansed. Thus it is with the leprosy of sin,--deep-rooted, deadly, and impossible to be cleansed by human power. {DA 266.1}

Now to me this sounds much more lethal than you will agree with. She makes no distinction between the soul and the body. Perhaps you see the side effects of a leper’s horrific life, the missing fingers, the mottled skin and the disfigured face, as the disease. It is not. It is the reactions to the disease. The disease is in the blood stream, the immune system, deep within the sufferer. Sin is as literal as that. It’s a rotting debility, biblically called “corruption”. It is the prime reason why we will need new bodies at the resurrection. You can get the new spirit now.

A thief must let Christ take away his thief’s heart, not merely his "rap sheet".

Sin is a disease, as real as any leper's, that no amount of sewing fingers back on, or promising to not to lose anymore can halt. It is the sin-master within, controlled by Satan that must be given to Christ to crucify, so that He can put a new heart into a man. Not a patch up or a re-education or a adjusting to one's mental viewpoint, or even agreement with the Three Angel's messages can equate with a new heart, a new spirit, a death of the sin nature within.

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Originally posted by Rosangela:
How would you lead someone to understand that they need God if they feel comfortable in sin?

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R: My conversion took place 30 years ago, when I was 16. I remember how I felt empty and considered life meaningless, and Christ reached out to me when suicide was a serious consideration in my mind.

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R: How would you lead someone to understand that they need God if they feel comfortable in sin?

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The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 22)

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If you don’t make people realize that the law of God condemns them to death because of their sins, and that therefore they need a Savior, they will not seek Christ.

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The Bible says that it is the goodness of God which leads to repentance.

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"This promise [of the power of the Holy Spirit] belongs as much to us as it did to them [Jesus’ disciples], and yet how rarely it is presented before the people, and its reception spoken of in the church. In consequence of this silence upon this most important theme, what promise do we know less about by its practical fulfillment than this rich promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit, whereby efficiency is to be given to all our spiritual labor?. . . Prophecies have been dwelt upon, doctrines have been expounded; but that which is essential to the church in order that they may grow in spiritual strength and efficiency, in order that the preaching may carry conviction with it, and souls be converted to God, has been largely left out of ministerial effort" (Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, p. 174)

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Ezekiel 18

19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

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If those who today are teaching the word of God, would uplift the cross of Christ higher and still higher, their ministry would be far more successful. If sinners can be led to give one earnest look at the cross, if they can obtain a full view of the crucified Saviour, they will realize the depth of God's compassion and the sinfulness of sin. (AA 209)

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The Lord has made every provision that the uplifted Saviour may be revealed to sinners. Although they are dead in trespasses and sins, their attention must be aroused by the preaching of Christ and Him crucified. (LHU 126)

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The apostles in their preaching went back to Adam's day and brought their hearers down through prophetic history and ended with Christ and Him crucified, calling upon sinners to repent and turn from their sins to God. The representatives of Christ in our day should follow their example and in every discourse magnify Christ as the Exalted One, as all and in all. (4T 401)

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If sinners can be led to give one earnest look at the cross, to obtain a full view of the crucified Saviour, all is gained. But very few ministers point sinners as they should to the Lamb of God. Few have a just estimate of the worth of souls or of the power of Christ to save. (RH 4/29/02)

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14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me F4 freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (Acts 2)

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Matthew 3
1In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea 2and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."
...
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

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Acts 2
14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.'[c]

22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25David said about him:
" 'I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will live in hope,
27because you will not abandon me to the grave,
nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
28You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.'[e]

29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[f] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
35until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '[g]

36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

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Acts 3
11While the beggar held on to Peter and John, all the people were astonished and came running to them in the place called Solomon's Colonnade. 12When Peter saw this, he said to them: "Men of Israel, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. 16By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see.

17"Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ[a] would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.'[b]

24"Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have foretold these days. 25And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.'[c] 26When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

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Acts 8
30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.

31"How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:
"He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth."[e]

34The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?" 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

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Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. 36You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

39"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, 40but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

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Originally posted by John:
If you don't think God will punish sinners, you're preaching "another gospel." It's just that simple.

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R: If there is no fear of death, you will seek no one to deliver you from death.

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R: What becomes evident here is the unbalance of emphasizing God only as a Father, but forgetting He is a Judge and a Lawgiver, as well as a moral Governor.

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R: He doesn’t just hate sin because it hurts His children, but He hates sin because sin is a crime in His eyes, deserving of death as punishment.

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R: The law and the gospel go hand in hand. If you don’t make people realize that the law of God condemns them to death because of their sins, and that therefore they need a Savior, they will not seek Christ.

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R: Those who do not understand they are lost will never feel the need to be saved.

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Of course it is Christ crucified that must be preached. However, the key point is that the sinner must understand why Christ died. He must understand that he is condemned to death by the law because of his sins, but Christ died to pay for these sins, to suffer the punishment he deserved, so that he should not perish but have eternal life. He must understand that Christ is his only hope of salvation.

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Originally posted by Rosangela:
Thomas,

I think you didn´t understand the question? Please read it again.

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Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
If the judge is righteous, he would recuse himself, which is, interestingly enough, just what God the Son did (John 12:47).

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The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. ... God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. (DA 764)

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Rosangela
I do think I understood the question. But you forgot to tell that the boy that was killed was the son of the judge, you forgot to tell that the girl that was raped was the daughter of the judge. You forgot to tell that they where the criminals brother and sister. You also forgot to tell that the criminal is you and me. Now what do you think about the question?

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1 The LORD sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, "There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.

4 "Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him."

5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, "As surely as the LORD lives, the man who did this deserves to die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity."

7 Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man!

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13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD."
Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, the son born to you will die."

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R: OK, the judge forgives or, better yet, does not even judge; the prisoner is just released! The dead brother and sister forgive. (By the way, how did the slain brother forgive if he was dead?)

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R: What about the lad? Will he have a correct notion of how harmful were his actions? Will he never kill and rape again just because the judge was so nice?

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R: And what about all the other young lads of the city? Will they have a correct notion of right and wrong? Will they think that the law should be obeyed? Will they learn that crime has bad consequences?

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R: What will become of the city which has such a nice judge?

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This is the correct procedure for a righteous judge to follow. But what if that judge loves his son so much that he submits himself to the penalty, and dies in the place of the lad, letting him go free?

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To equate civil jurisprudence as equal to the Ways of God is what has always created Inquisitions, Star-chambers and man-made theocracies; man loves to pretend to act like the Almighty.

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R: In the illustration, Christ is the judge who dies for his son, not the slain brother. The city is the universe and the other lads are the unfallen beings.

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R: Now let’s imagine this world with just the natural results of sin and no judicial punishments. Does adultery bring suffering? Yes! Homicides? Yes! Theft? Yes! But just imagine how this world would be like if there were no judicial punishments.

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Originally posted by Rosangela:
Ikan,

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To equate civil jurisprudence as equal to the Ways of God is what has always created Inquisitions, Star-chambers and man-made theocracies; man loves to pretend to act like the Almighty.

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Because men pretend to be gods, this does not mean that the Almighty cannot act like the Almighty; that the Supreme King cannot act like a king; that the supreme Judge cannot act like a judge.

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Civil courts (as what was conveyed in your parable) can only judge by sight and circumstances and cannot decide by what is in ANY man's heart. They are Ceasar, and not God.

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Rosangela,

If you where to read the two-three first chapters of the letter to the hebrews, you would recognise much of what has been written in this thread the last week.

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If you committed a crime, you committed a crime; this is a fact, no matter what is in your heart. Now the question is: if you commit a crime and your repentance is a sincere one, would it be just and correct for a judge to release you without a punishment?

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Originally posted by John:
Thomas, I just noticed this:

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Rosangela,

If you where to read the two-three first chapters of the letter to the hebrews, you would recognise much of what has been written in this thread the last week.

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Do you honestly think that Rosangela has never read the book of Hebrews? Isn't that sort of a flippant thing to say?

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Originally posted by John Boskovic:
[QB] Tom, that is one aspect, but what more the concept of arbitrary judicial punishment from God invokes should be sobering.QB]

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Tom: This brings out the crux of the matter, I think. Rosangela seems to think that sin has not natural results; that it would just go on its merry way forever if God did not intervene. Others of us believe that it is only because God *is* intervening right now and at every moment that sin can go on at all. It's when God *quits* intervening that sin comes to an end.

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It's when God *quits* intervening that sin comes to an end.

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Now where no accuser is there can be no prosecution, no indictment, no verdict, no condemnation, and no punishment. If there is no one to accuse, how do you get a court case?.

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Ikan: How do you think this unusual concept of condemnation from a heavenly accuser came about?

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Ikan: Is it because we are used to earthly accusers among the religious?

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Sin is corrupting in its nature. One man infected with its deadly leprosy may communicate the taint to thousands (2BC 996).

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Man has severed his connection with God, and his soul has become palsied and strengthless by the deadly poison of sin (Upward Look 49)

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Transgression is a serpent with a deadly sting. Grant it no indulgence, for it will imperil the soul (RH 1/3/80)

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The work of Christ in cleansing the leper from his terrible disease is an illustration of His work in cleansing the soul from sin. The man who came to Jesus was "full of leprosy." Its deadly poison had permeated his whole body (ST 10/25/05).

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In fact, Christ taught the opposite. The parable of the 10,000 talents, the king freely forgave.

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There's no hint anywhere in Christ's ministry that any payment was necessary for forgiveness to take place.

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T: This seems to be a crucial distinction in how we see things. Is sin benign, or is it deadly?

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• The good shepherd who gives his life for the sheep, in the battle with the wolf.
• The king who sent his servants and then his Son whom the wicked husbandmen slew.

These parables show well why and how he died to save us

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Since you have discovered several times that English words mean something more than what you thought they meant ( and I say this with all respect as a trilingual myself), in the dictionary I suggest that we research "intervene".

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Then usage that Tom is using is "to come between as an influence, as in order to modify, settle, or hinder some action".

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Rosangela: You and me, the accusers?

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Well, in a sense you are doing it whenever you do not forgive someone who wrongs you – you are declaring you do not want forgiveness. Each time you insist on justice – your kind – you are denying God’s saving justice to yourself. So, you see, it is difficult for the Lord to retain the name in the book of life, since such a one does not want his life.

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Doesn't God bring an end to sin simply by revealing His glory? And His glory is simply His goodness, correct? So God brings about an end to sin simply by being Himself. This means that for sin to exist at all, God must hold back from revealing His glory, doesn't it? When God ceases to hold back from revealing His glory, then sin is destroyed.

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So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. (Matt. 18:35)

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21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. (Matt. 18:21, 22)

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Mike: The salvation of the wicked? Well, since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, the salvation of the wicked includes every human being ever born, right? There is none righteous, no, not one. But, by the time Jesus arrives to redeem us, it is the righteous that He takes with Him - not the wicked. So, somewhere along the way the wicked become righteous.

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Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. Mat 18:23-35

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I would think that the obvious understanding of this debt is a life of sin, and much of it. Now it seems that all that this sinner did was simply ask for patience, but the king did more; he frankly forgave him. So seems simple enough: looks like all one has to do, is go fall at the king’s mercy and ask forgiveness; How about that?

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Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. Mat 18:23-35

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The king was upset with the servant, whose debt he canceled, because he did not demonstrate the same kindness and generosity to a fellow servant.

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Now what I also question is, why the king would not be happy if the servant demonstrated the king’s “supposed righteousness/justice”? After all, does he not want us to be like him?

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I would think that the obvious understanding of this debt is a life of sin, and much of it. Now it seems that all that this sinner did was simply ask for patience, but the king did more; he frankly forgave him.

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Mike: The King would be happy. But if we refuse to be like Him then we shall be punished and destroyed in the lake of fire. Perfection is not a "request" - it's a command.

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Micah 7
18 Who is a God like you,
who pardons sin and forgives the transgression
of the remnant of his inheritance?
You do not stay angry forever
but delight to show mercy.

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Micah 6
6 With what shall I come before the LORD
and bow down before the exalted God?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?

7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousand rivers of oil?
Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8 He has showed you, O man, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.

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Hosea 6
6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

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Is the reason why the Lord said, not to avenge ourselves, so that we would be like him, or unlike him.

Is our idea of vengeance the same as his?

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"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matt. 6:15. Nothing can justify an unforgiving spirit. He who is unmerciful toward others shows that he himself is not a partaker of God's pardoning grace. In God's forgiveness the heart of the erring one is drawn close to the great heart of Infinite Love. The tide of divine compassion flows into the sinner's soul, and from him to the souls of others. The tenderness and mercy that Christ has revealed in His own precious life will be seen in those who become sharers of His grace. But "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His." Rom. 8:9. He is alienated from God, fitted only for eternal separation from Him.

It is true that he may once have received forgiveness; but his unmerciful spirit shows that he now rejects God's pardoning love. He has separated himself from God, and is in the same condition as before he was forgiven. He has denied his repentance,and his sins are upon him as if he had not repented. (COL 251)

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How can we then accuse God of a justice outside of his spirit?

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If it is not received into the heart, then it is not received.

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But it's equally as sad when people believe they are forgiven when they have no right to it. It's amazing to me that they seem to be able to experience the joy of forgiveness as if they are truly forgiven. What's up with that?

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MM: What are the criteria that God uses to determine who is "counted worthy" (2 Thes. 1:5) of eternal life?

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We must continually choose to be saved moment by moment. By using the word "saved" I mean we would be taken to heaven if Jesus were to return now, which, of course, implies everything we've talked about concerning sin and salvation.

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All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. (Desire of Ages, p. 668)

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Originally posted by Phil N. D'blanc:
Would you kill someone if you think God told you to, MM?

Choose yes or no, then explain, please.

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Originally posted by Mountain Man:
I agree that it's way more enjoyable to talk about God saving people. However, all three of the final warning messages, described in Revelation 14, focus on . . .

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Originally posted by Mountain Man:
Yes, of course. Why? Because God said so. In reality, though, I very much doubt that God would ever ask me to kill someone, and I know He wouldn't ask me to murder anyone. I cannot fathom a situation where God would tell me to kill someone nowadays.

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the sin disease is the antithesis of grace

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You guys sure are having fun with the word "imitate", aren't you?

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Grace is the power of God that empowers us to be holy and righteous.

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4For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. (2 Cor. 5:14, 15)

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14For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. (2 Cor. 5:14, 15)

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Since it is the holy virtues of God that compel and empower us to be Christlike, why are we told to partake of the divine nature? What role does it play in our salvation?

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John, sin and sinful nature are separate things, right? As I understand it, sin is the transgression of the law, either in thought, word, or deed. And sinful nature is that part of our human makeup that tempts us to sin, that wants us to experience our innocent and legitimate needs (appetites and passions) in a sinful way. As such, sinning and possessing a sinful nature cannot be one and the same thing, right?

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John, sin and sinful nature are separate things, right? As I understand it, sin is the transgression of the law, either in thought, word, or deed. And sinful nature is that part of our human makeup that tempts us to sin, that wants us to experience our innocent and legitimate needs (appetites and passions) in a sinful way. As such, sinning and possessing a sinful nature cannot be one and the same thing, right?

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Sinful nature is that part of our human makeup that tempts us to sin, that wants us to experience our innocent and legitimate needs (appetites and passions) in a sinful way

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Can we use the words used in the Bible and the SOP?

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I see no difference between sinful flesh and sinful nature. Both expressions refer to that part of our human makeup that generates and communicates unholy thoughts and feelings, that part of us that tempts us to fulfill our legitimate needs in a sinful way. For example, we are tempted to over eat, to eat the wrong things, to puff up with pride, to covet the neighbor’s boat, etc.

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John, sin and sinful nature are separate things, right? As I understand it, sin is the transgression of the law, either in thought, word, or deed. And sinful nature is that part of our human makeup that tempts us to sin, that wants us to experience our innocent and legitimate needs (appetites and passions) in a sinful way. As such, sinning and possessing a sinful nature cannot be one and the same thing, right?

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If the Scriptures do not refer to "sinful nature" as you contend John, then you cannot contend what that term should mean according to Scripture. I'm not sure why this is such a crucial point to you, but you have suggested a way through the difficulty we've been having, so I'll follow along with the terminology you are suggesting: "heart-spirit".

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