Who or What caused the Flood?

quote:

---

Genesis 6:17 NKJV And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die.

---

quote:

---

1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4"Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'

5"But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

---

quote:

---

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

---

quote:

---

13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the LORD, because he did not keep the word of the LORD, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance.

14 But he did not inquire of the LORD; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

---

quote:

---

20 And the LORD said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The LORD said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the LORD said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you.” (1 Kings 22:20-23)

---

quote:

---

My question is that there are times in the Bible which state that God did something. How do we know if it is speaking of something He permitted, or did Himself?

---

quote:

---

I suggest that whenever the bibleauthor is quoting God, the words should be understood as having the obvious meaning unless interpreted by the same or another bible author.

---

quote:

---

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC 35.3}

---

quote:

---

When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out.

---

quote:

---

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.

---

quote:

---

The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

---

quote:

---

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

---

quote:

---

About the The plagues in Egypt, the flood, Soddom and Gomorrah, the slaying of people by angels, Herod's death, Ananias and Saphira, as you said, they are all ascribed only to God, both in the Bible and in the writings of EGW. So what reason would we have to think that they were not caused by God?

---

quote:

---

Can you substantiate the points made by the Spirit of Prophesy from the Bible?

---

quote:

---

This seems to me to be describing the same event.

---

quote:

---

So the short version of the long answer to your question is that God does not do bad things because it is contrary to His character. We have enough evidence regarding His character to know that when He is presented as doing something bad it means He is permitting the bad thing to happen.

---

quote:

---

I wonder, is it just me wondering what would happen with the trustworthiness of the bible if we suddenly decided that much what it says about God is no longer God but satan? This is both in the prophets, Jesus teaching and the revelations from patmos. If God is said to have ordered the killings of the firstborn of egypt, the deportation of Israel to assyria and babylon, Jesus telling parables where the King orders the executions of His enemies and then Jesus after going to heavin sending John visions where God is warning the world of destruction to come by the outpoaring of cups of wrath by holy angles. If all this from all parts of the bible would suddenly be ascribed to the devil, then whats next for the editing room? What else have we always missunderstood for the past 3000 years or more that need correcting? Is the bible trustworthy? Can it be trusted to tell the truth?

---

quote:

---

Tom: It is possible that God would want Ahab to be deceived? Would His character allow this? Is the only reason we know the Ahab story is a parable because of Micaiah?

---

quote:

---

Tom: If it's every true that God does bad things to prevent something worse, then Marx was correct: the ends justify the means.

---

quote:

---

God could have used the Romans to destroy the Jews.

---

quote:

---

Tom: Hmmm. My question was, is the only reason we know the Ahab stroy is a parable because of Micaiah, and you answer no, and the proof is Micaiah. Interesting answer.

---

quote:

---

Old Tom: If it's every true that God does bad things to prevent something worse, then Marx was correct

---

quote:

---

Tom: God had to let Satan live because the alternative would have been worse.

---

quote:

---

R: After you have convinced me that the fact that God let Satan live was not a bad thing, we will continue this discussion.

Tom: God had to let Satan live because the alternative would have been worse. An evil seed of doubt would have remained, questioning whether God was as Satan said He was. The only way God could answer the question as to whether Satan's accusations regarding His character and the principles of His government were correct or not, and if Satan was correct in suggesting that he had a better way, was to allow Satan to live and give him a chance to develop his way of doing things.

When all creation has seen the truth, then the Great Controversy will come to an end.

---

quote:

---

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.

But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. (DA 764)

---

quote:

---

What “bad thing” did God do by “letting Satan live”?

---

quote:

---

John: What “bad thing” did God do by “letting Satan live”?

R: Just look at this earth and you will have the answer. Billions of creatures suffer and billions will go to the lake of fire because God let Satan live.

---

quote:

---

If my horse breaks his leg irreparably, then I should let the animal continue living in agony because I don't love him if I kill him; on the contrary, I'm heartless, mercyless and cruel.

---

quote:

---

However, every time something is expressed, something is left out. That particular quote, while dealing with possible consequences, has missed telling us that God’s actions were the outworking of “his goodness”; and not just an effort of using the occasion to make a display of “his goodness”. In which case it would not have been his goodness at work, but it would have been “pride”.

---

quote:

---

Tom,

Why did you repeat your post of yesterday?

---

quote:

---

With God, there is no break that is not "repairable”

---

quote:

---

R: Of course not, John. It is possible to commit the sin against the Holy Spirit, as the antediluvians. It is possible to resist God until you can no longer be reached by Him, as the Israelites who didn´t repent of worshiping the golden calf, as the inhabitants of Sodom, as the canaanites, as Korah and his associates, as Ananias and Saphira, etc.

---

quote:

---

There is not a commandment of the law that is not for the good and happiness of man, both in this life and in the life to come. In obedience to God's law, man is surrounded as with a hedge and kept from the evil. He who breaks down this divinely erected barrier at one point has destroyed its power to protect him; for he has opened a way by which the enemy can enter to waste and ruin. {MB 52.1}

---

quote:

---

Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. (GC 36)

---

quote:

---

Tom, have you considered the fact that EGW stated time and again that God caused the Flood, in modern language so plain that none need miss it?

---

quote:

---

Why would the fact that it is stated in modern language change anything? Isn't the fact the Bible says something sufficient?

---

quote:

---

I'd say No, sometimes the Bible isn't sufficient, when people have strayed so far off the path of truth that they no longer can discern what the Bible itself says.

---

quote:

---

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan.(GC 36)

---

quote:

---

It is not by inherent power that year by year the earth yields its bounties and continues its march around the sun. The hand of the Infinite One is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power continually exercised that keeps the earth in position in its rotation. It is God who causes the sun to rise in the heavens. He opens the windows of heaven and gives rain. (MH 416)

---

quote:

---

The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood; it presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every nerve and muscle in the living organism, is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God. {MH 417.1}

---

quote:

---

OK, back to the other possibility. That would be that the earth was in no danger at all, until God cam on the scene, and out of anger or whatever opened the earth's crust. In this view, God is the destructive force, and to be feared, rather than sin. In this view, God is not a protector or Savior, but rather a destroyer, one to be feared, who will wreak vengence upon those who would dare to act in defiance to His will.

---

quote:

---

Satan's power over the human agents is great to destroy. The Lord in his great mercy is a restorer, the very opposite of Satan.(1888 Mat. 1145)

---

quote:

---

The only difference between our positions, as far as I can tell, is that I believe God was acting the whole time to prevent the earth from destruction.

---

quote:

---

Is there any problem with what you think if you discovered that God removed His protecting hand, and this is what caused the waters of the deep to burst forth and cause the flood?

---

quote:

---

Is there any problem with what you think if you discovered that God removed His protecting hand, and this is what caused the waters of the deep to burst forth and cause the flood?

---

quote:

---

Letting someone die may be more cruel than killing.

---

quote:

---

This couldn’t explain all the situations. Let’s examine the case of the Egyptians, who were also drowned.

“Then the LORD said to Moses, 'Stretch out your hand over the sea, that the water may come back upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen.' So Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to its wonted flow when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled into it, and the LORD routed the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. The waters returned and covered the chariots and the horsemen and all the host of Pharaoh that had followed them into the sea; not so much as one of them remained” (Ex. 14:26-28).

God commanded Moses to close the sea. This couldn’t be described as God permitting the Egyptians to be drowned.

---

quote:

---

I think the point you're wanting to make in the comment is that God would be no less cruel under the hypothesis that He permitted those who oppose Him to die by withdrawing His protecting and sustaining hand rather than by actually killing them. Is that correct?

---

quote:

---

I take it from your response that you do not reject the idea that what I suggested is possible, but you don't see what difference it would make. If I understanding that correctly?

---

quote:

---

Nothing God does is arbitrary.

---

quote:

---

I would like to know if I'm understanding you correctly on this point (which is, the flood could have been caused by God's removing His protecting hand from the earth's crust, which allowed the waters that were there the whole time to erupt)

---

quote:

---

You are making some pressupositions here with which I do not agree:

1)That God never destroys and this is a principle of His government
2)That killing is always bad and cruel
3)That killing is always an act of force

---

quote:

---

"God destroys no one." Testimonies for the Church, 5:120.

---

quote:

---

"Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. Testimonies for the Church, 6:388, 389.

---

quote:

---

"This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it." Testimonies for the Church, 7:141.

---

quote:

---

"Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer." The Ministry of Healing, 113.

---

quote:

---

God is constantly employed in upholding and using as His servants the things that He has made. He works through the laws of nature, using them as His instruments. They are not self-acting. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will....It is not by inherent power that year by year the earth yields its bounties and continues its march around the sun. The hand of the Infinite One is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power continually exercised that keeps the earth in position in its rotation. It is God who causes the sun to rise in the heavens. He opens the windows of heaven and gives rain.

---

quote:

---

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one.(GC 266)

---

quote:

---

Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer.(GC 589)

---

quote:

---

I see no evidence that, if it wasn’t for God’s protecting hand, the water beneath earth’s crust would have destroyed the planet just after sin, and God had been restraining these waters for 2000 years before finally removing His restriction.

---

quote:

---

God loves His creatures with a love that is both tender and strong. He has established the laws of nature, but His laws are not arbitrary exactions. Every "thou shalt not," whether in physical or moral law, contains or implies a promise. If it is obeyed, blessings will attend our steps; if it is disobeyed, the result is danger and unhappiness. The laws of God are designed to bring His people closer to Himself. He will save them from the evil and lead them to the good if they will be led, but force them He never will. (AG 266)

From the beginning it has been Satan's studied plan to cause men to forget God, that he might secure them to himself. Therefore he has sought to misrepresent the character of God, to lead men to cherish a false conception of Him. The Creator has been presented to their minds as clothed with the attributes of the prince of evil himself--as arbitrary, severe, and unforgiving--that He might be feared, shunned, and even hated by men. (In Heavenly Places, page 8)

But strange fire has been offered in the use of harsh words, in self-importance, in self-exaltation, in
self-righteousness, in arbitrary authority, in domineering, in oppression, in restricting the liberty of God's people, binding them about by your plans and rules, which God has not framed, neither have they come into His mind. All these things are strange fire, unacknowledged by God, and are a continual misrepresentation of His character. (TM 357)

Many conceive of the Christian's God as a being whose attribute is stern justice,--one who is a severe judge, a harsh, exacting creditor. The Creator has been pictured as a being who is watching with jealous eye to discern the errors and mistakes of men, that He may visit judgment upon them. In the minds of thousands, love and sympathy and tenderness are associated with the character of Christ, while God is regarded as the law-giver, inflexible, arbitrary, devoid of sympathy for the beings He has made. (Bible Training School, November 1, 1908)

When the earth was repeopled, men again lost the fear of God out of their hearts. Satan worked to array them against God. Thus he was seeking to gain full possession of the earth. He misinterpreted the character of God, and charged him with the very attributes that he himself possessed, while he concealed his own character from them. He professed to be their best friend, one who was working so that God's arbitrary power should not bring them into abject slavery. Through fallen man he renewed his hostilities to God, and triumphed in the very face of Heaven. (RH 8/14/00)

---

quote:

---

To me this entire thing seems silly, being that God uses and will use His DESTROYING ANGELS to destroy sinners...

---

quote:

---

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

---

quote:

---

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself.

---

quote:

---

18 Therefore the LORD will wait, that He may be gracious to you;And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you.
For the LORD is a God of justice;
Blessed are all those who wait for Him.(Isa. 30:18)

---

quote:

---

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another.(Zech. 7:9)

---

quote:

---

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire.(DA 764)

---

quote:

---

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shall love thy neighbor, and hate your enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.(Matthew 5:43-48)

---

quote:

---

I am curious, however, as to how you would see killing occuring not as an act of force. The only thing that pops to my mind would be in the sense of permitting some destructive act to occur. Is this what you had in mind? Or something else?

---

quote:

---

"God destroys no one." Testimonies for the Church, 5:120.

---

quote:

---

Satan is the destroyer.

---

quote:

---

To be specific, is it possible that there were forces which would have opened the earth's crust, setting into motion events which would cause the flood?

---

quote:

---

Tom:Because God is not arbitrary.

---

quote:

---

So the general principles are:

1.Sin is a destructive force which requires positive action on God's part for us to be protected.
2.God must sustain us, our planet, the laws of nature, in order for things to function correctly.

So if God withdraws His protective or sustaining hand, then bad things happen. As to why it is different for ruin to occur as a result of God withdrawing His sustaining and protecting hand vs. His actually causing the ruin, in the one case, none of the principles of His government are violated, but in the other they are.

---

quote:

---

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued, until he looked upon his devastated land, upon the cold, dead form of his first-born, and the first-born of all in his house and of all the families in his kingdom, until the waters of the sea closed over his horses and his chariots and his men of war. (COL 84, 85)

---

quote:

---

The fact that you argue so strenuously for the other interpretation suggests that you DO feel it makes a difference.

---

quote:

---

Addressing this very point, according to EGW it was not God:

---

quote:

---

I can accept a God who tells me, "I will take your life because you proved unworthy of it."

---

quote:

---

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued, until he looked upon his devastated land, upon the cold, dead form of his first-born, and the first-born of all in his house and of all the families in his kingdom, until the waters of the sea closed over his horses and his chariots and his men of war. (COL 84, 85)

---

quote:

---

The same exact principles were at work which are always at work. God just made them obvious, so all can see.

It is always by God's power that nature functions. It is not self-acting. There is no "normal" course of nature which doesn't involve God's sustaining and protective power. The Egyptians were killed when God withdrew His protection from the destructive forces from which He was protecting those who had not rejected Him. There's no difference in principle between this and any other episode in which those who have rejected God's grace are destroyed, including at the end of time.

It makes sense that this should be the case, because God is the same yesterday, today and forever. There is no difference between God's actions on the Red Sea, at the end of time, and on the cross. It's one God, who acts the same way, all the time. He goes about doing good. When He is rejected, He departs. This results in the ruin of those who reject Him.

---

quote:

---

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest.(GC 37)

---

quote:

---

Tom:On what basis do you make this assertion? There's nothing in the text that suggests that she is dealing merely with responsibility.

---

quote:

---

Tom:How could God have waited for the Egyptians? They had rejected God's gracious offer to save them over and over and over again. They insisted they wanted nothing to do with God, so God left them to their choice. If God had waited, He would not have been respecting their freedom.

---

quote:

---

I've been thinking about your claim that God is not responsible for the death of the Egyptians, even though you feel He was the cause. Yet the normal definition for "responsible" involves being the agent or cause of an event. So if God was the agent or cause of their death, then He would have had to have been responsible.

---

quote:

---

You think the wicked are in no danger until God does something to put them there.

---

quote:

---

No, God couldn't have waited, because that would have been violating their freedom of choice. They made it clear they wanted nothing to do with God, and God honored their choice.

---

quote:

---

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued, until he looked upon his devastated land, upon the cold, dead form of his first-born, and the first-born of all in his house and of all the families in his kingdom, until the waters of the sea closed over his horses and his chariots and his men of war. (COL 84, 85)

---

quote:

---

Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will.(GC 36)

---

quote:

---

...they did not receive him...And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.(Luke 9:52-56)

---

quote:

---

There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas.(DA 487)

---

quote:

---

All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son.(8T 286)

---

quote:

---

Tom: So where in Christ's life do we see the destructive character ascribed to God?

---

quote:

---

The cursing of the fig tree was an acted parable. That barren tree, flaunting its pretentious foliage in the very face of Christ, was a symbol of the Jewish nation. The Saviour desired to make plain to His disciples the cause and the certainty of Israel's doom. For this purpose He invested the tree with moral qualities, and made it the expositor of divine truth (DA 582)

---

quote:

---

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC 35.3}

---

quote:

---

They brought ruin upon themselves by refusing to minister to others. The treasures of truth which God had committed to them, they did not give to the world. In the barren tree they might read both their sin and its punishment. Withered beneath the Saviour's curse, standing forth sere and blasted, dried up by the roots, the fig tree showed what the Jewish people would be when the grace of God was removed from them. Refusing to impart blessing, they would no longer receive it. "O Israel," the Lord says, "thou hast destroyed thyself." Hosea 13:9. {DA 583.2}

---

quote:

---

The warning is for all time. Christ's act in cursing the tree which His own power had created stands as a warning to all churches and to all Christians. No one can live the law of God without ministering to others. But there are many who do not live out Christ's merciful, unselfish life.

---

quote:

---

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 Therefore if your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (Rom. 14:21)

---

quote:

---

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect (Matt. 5:38-48)

---

quote:

---

The whole earthly life of Jesus was a manifestation of this principle. It was to bring the bread of life to His enemies that our Saviour left His home in heaven. Though calumny and persecution were heaped upon Him from the cradle to the grave, they called forth from Him only the expression of forgiving love. Through the prophet Isaiah He says, "I gave My back to the smiters, and My cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not My face from shame and spitting." "He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth." Isaiah 50:6; 53:7. And from the cross of Calvary there come down through the ages His prayer for His murderers and the message of hope to the dying thief. {MB 71.1}

---

quote:

---

Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. Like Israel of old, the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. (GC 37)

---

quote:

---

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

---

quote:

---

"Learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow". (Isaiah 1:17)

---

quote:

---

"This is what the LORD says: "`Administer justice every morning; rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed" (Jeremiah 21:12)

---

quote:

---

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: `Administer true justice: show mercy and compassion to one another. (Zechariah 7:9)

---

quote:

---

"Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion. For the LORD is a God of justice".( Isaiah 30:18)

---

What we see from the above Scriptures is that justice in Scripture involves setting things right. The way that God sets things right is by mercy and compassion. There's no confusion here!

Mark:They both exist in the character of God. God is love. Love is the harmonious blending of justice and mercy. In order to manifest what mercy is, there must be justice. Justice defines what a person is fairly entitled to. In the cases of the redeemed, the glory of God is revealed in His mercy by contrasting what the person is entitled to with what they actually receive.

Tom:So in the case of the redeemed, God can be unjust? Is that the idea? That seems to be what you are saying, because you write that in the case of the redeemed by contrasing what they actually receive to what they are entitled to.

Mark:In contrast, the wicked reject the mercy of God. And so they receive His justice.

Tom:But God is just to the wicked. So if we disregard God's law, we will be treated justly. But if we don't, we won't be.

I believe God is just and merciful to everybody, whether or not they reject His mercy. What people really do when they reject God's mercy is to substitue their own justice for His. John has written quite a bit about this theme. Maybe he'll jump in here.

quote:

---

Actually I'm a bit confused as to the point you were wishing to make, since neither the body nor the soul can be destroyed without destroying the other.

---

quote:

---

Tom:The MH 416 quote I cited earlier brings this out. So do the Psalms and Job. For example, God set the limit to how far the waters may advance. New Orleans is but a small measure of how powerful the forces of nature are from which God constantly protects us. Consider what a comet or large asteroid would do if it collided with this planet. Or if the sun veered off course. Many examples could be given.

---

quote:

---

It's not a matter of a one time request, but of a consistent, persistent resistance of the wooing of God's Spirit.

---

quote:

---

So the short version of the long answer to your question is that God does not do bad things because it is contrary to His character. We have enough evidence regarding His character to know that when He is presented as doing something bad it means He is permitting the bad thing to happen.

---

quote:

---

Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. The Ministry of Healing, 113.

---

quote:

---

"Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree corning upon the earth, and why? The Lord's restraining power is not exercised. The world has disregarded the word of God. They live as though there were no God. Like the inhabitants of the Noachic world, they refuse to have any thought of God. Wickedness prevails to an alarming extent, and the earth is ripe for the harvest." Testimonies for the Church, 6:388, 389.

---

quote:

---

What He taught, He lived. "I have given you an example," He said to His disciples; "that ye should do as I have done." "I have kept My Father's commandments." John 13:15; 15:10. Thus in His life, Christ's words had perfect illustration and support. And more than this; what He taught, He was. His words were the expression, not only of His own life experience, but of His own character. Not only did He teach the truth, but He was the truth. It was this that gave His teaching, power. (Ed 78)

---

quote:

---

There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas. (DA 487)

---

quote:

---

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of. {14MR 3.1}

---

quote:

---

Tom:Didn't he die in the Red Sea?

---

quote:

---

This is talking about physical calamities which cause physical death. Satan is the destroyer. He destroys when God permits him to do his destroying work.

---

quote:

---

"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods." (Deut 31:17, 18)

---

quote:

---

Tom:Why would you assume it's not always the case? Why would you need additional evidence from the general principle? There are so many Scriptures which say something like this:

---

quote:

---

"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods." (Deut 31:17, 18)

---

quote:

---

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.(Matt. 5:38-45)

---

quote:

---

The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.(DA 764)

---

quote:

---

God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.

---

quote:

---

All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him." John 1:18. {8T 286.2}

Taking humanity upon Him, Christ came to be one with humanity and at the same time to reveal our heavenly Father to sinful human beings. He was in all things made like unto His brethren. He became flesh, even as we are. He was hungry and thirsty and weary. He was sustained by food and refreshed by sleep. He shared the lot of men, and yet He was the blameless Son of God. He was a stranger and sojourner on the earth--in the world, but not of the world; tempted and tried as men and women today are tempted and tried, yet living a life free from sin. {8T 286.3}

Tender, compassionate, sympathetic, ever considerate of others, He represented the character of God, and was constantly engaged in service for God and man. {8T 286.4}

"The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, . . . full of grace and truth." Verse 14. {8T 286.5}

"Unto the men whom Thou gavest Me out of the world,'' He said, "I manifested Thy name," "that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them." John 17:6, A. R. V., 26. {8T 286.6}

"Love your enemies," He bade them; "bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven;" "for He is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." "He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." "Be ye therefore merciful, as
287
your Father also is merciful." Matthew 5:44, 45; Luke 6: 35, 36. {8T 286.7}

---

quote:

---

This text shows that God's angers is manifest in His forsaking the one against whom He is angry.

---

quote:

---

Tom:You keep flip-flopping on this. You started out saying there was no difference, and I asked you if you didn't think there was a difference, why did you argue so strongly against the idea. And you said, "Can I be honest?" You said you could respect a God who said, "If you are not worthy, I will take your life away." Now you are back to saying it doesn't make any difference.

---

quote:

---

Tom:Wrong acts are not sanatized by right motivations.

---

quote:

---

The basic premise is that God gives favor to individuals or nations on the basis of obedience to His law. When an entity is disobedient, then ruin follows

---

quote:

---

Tom:According to the Scriptures, God killed Saul, and God destroyed Jerusalem. So He did appoint them to destruction.

---

quote:

---

Tom:God doesn't do any dirty work. God is good. He is just like Jesus.

---

quote:

---

Tom:Or Satan. Shouldn't he be included in the list?

---

quote:

---

Tom:According to this way of thinking, God kills everybody.

---

quote:

---

The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. {DA 22.1}

---

quote:

---

"They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city.
." (Jer. 33:5)

---

quote:

---

"God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." The Desire of Ages, 759.

"The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority." ibid., 22.

"Earthly kingdoms rule by the ascendency of physical power; but from Christ's kingdom every carnal weapon, every instrument of coercion, is banished." The Acts of the Apostles, 12.

"In the work of redemption there is no compulsion. No external force is employed. Under the influence of the Spirit of God, man is left free to choose whom he will serve. In the change that takes place when the soul surrenders to Christ, there is the highest sense of freedom." The Desire of Ages, 466.

"Force is the last resort of every false religion." (ST 5/7/97)

---

quote:

---

All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son...Taking humanity upon Him, Christ came to be one with humanity and at the same time to reveal our heavenly Father to sinful human beings. {8T 286.1}

---

quote:

---

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. (DA 764)

---

quote:

---

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. (COL 84)

---

quote:

---

Pharaoh sowed obstinacy, and he reaped a harvest of the same in his character. The Lord could do nothing more to convince him, for he was barricaded in obstinacy and prejudice, where the Holy Spirit could not find access to his heart. Pharaoh was given up to his own unbelief and hardness of heart. (RH 2/17/92)

---

quote:

---

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. (GC 36,37)

---

quote:

---

The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, he charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. Jesus was to unveil this deception.(DA 25)

---

quote:

---

To the last, he refused to acknowledge his own course to be deserving of censure. When the consequence of his disaffection became apparent, and it was decreed that with all his sympathizers he must be forever banished from the abode of bliss, the arch-deceiver threw the blame wholly upon Christ. With one accord, Satan and his hosts declared that had they not been reproved, the rebellion would never have occurred, thus making Christ responsible for their course. Thus stubborn and defiant in their disloyalty, seeking vainly to overthrow the government of God, yet blasphemously claiming to be themselves the innocent victims of oppressive power, the arch-rebel and all his sympathizers were at last banished from Heaven. (The Spirit of Prophecy Volume Four, page 318)

---

quote:

---

It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. His sophistry lessens the obligation of the divine law and gives men license to sin. At the same time he causes them to cherish false conceptions of God so that they regard Him with fear and hate rather than with love. The cruelty inherent in his own character is attributed to the Creator. {GC 569.1}

---

quote:

---

Tom:I don't know what this is referring to. I've been offering explanations for hundreds of posts.

---

quote:

---

Tom:Jesus didn't have to do everything while on earth.

---

quote:

---

Tom:So you see what happened in Numbers 25 to be fundamentally different than Deut. 31? I don't understand the difference.

---

quote:

---

Tom:These passages explain God's motivations. We agree that God's motives are pure, and that action must be taken to counteract Satan's plans. The question is if God uses the methods of Satan in order to accomplish His plans.

---

quote:

---

Tom:The Spirit of Prophesy says time and time again that the wicked reap what THEY have sown

---

quote:

---

God did not pick up the Red Sea and hurl it at them in order to kill them.

---

quote:

---

Tom:Which means if I don't then wrong acts are sanatized by right motivations?

---

quote:

---

If God removes His blessings, then ruin comes that very moment.

---

quote:

---

Tom:Satan is happy when any humans die because that causes pain to God, whom he hates.

---

quote:

---

Sin has caused tremendous changes to nature, which has made it dangerous. If it weren't for God's active sustaining and protective care, all life would perish.

---

quote:

---

Tom:Does this means that God did not appoint Jerusalem to destruction? Were the Scriptures are wrong about this? And what about Saul? The Scriptures say God killed Saul. Wouldn't that be appointed to destruction?

---

quote:

---

Tom:If I'm understanding your thought, it is that it would be dishonest of God to not destroy Himself.

---

quote:

---

Our heart doesn't beat by itself; God makes it beat.

---

quote:

---

All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. Testimonies for the Church, 8:286.

---

quote:

---

In this parable Christ was meeting the people on their own ground. The doctrine of a conscious state of existence between death and the resurrection was held by many of those who were listening to Christ's words. The Saviour knew of their ideas, and He framed His parable so as to inculcate important truths through these preconceived opinions. He held up before His hearers a mirror wherein they might see themselves in their true relation to God. He used the prevailing opinion to convey the idea He wished to make prominent to all--that no man is valued for his possessions; for all he has belongs to him only as lent by the Lord. A misuse of these gifts will place him below the poorest and most afflicted man who loves God and trusts in Him. {COL 263.2}

---

quote:

---

In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light which streams from the cross of Calvary, and in connection with the wondrous, central truth of the Saviour's atonement. Those who study the Redeemer's wonderful sacrifice grow in grace and knowledge. The SDA Bible Commentary, 5:1137.

---

quote:

---

The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. {DA 22.1}

---

quote:

---

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father.... When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men.(ST 1/20/90)

---

quote:

---

Tom:Jesus didn't have to do everything while on earth. Just what was necessary to reveal God's character completely, which He did, since all that we can know about God's character was revealed in His life.

---

quote:

---

"All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." Testimonies for the Church, 8:286.

---

quote:

---

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire.(DA 764)

---

quote:

---

The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. (DA 20)

---

quote:

---

Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government, The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power.(DA 758)

---

quote:

---

Tom:Wrong acts are not sanatized by right motivations.

R:Then you have to prove that killing is always wrong.

Tom:Which means if I don't then wrong acts are sanatized by right motivations?

---

quote:

---

The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, he charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. Jesus was to unveil this deception.(DA 24)

---

quote:

---

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Claudia: Who do you think is going to be doing this destruction?

Rv:20:9: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rv:20:10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Tom: Thank you for your input Claudia.

It's a bit ironic that Rev. 20:10 is THE proof text used by those who believe that hell is eternal. They argue that this is after all, what the text says. We argue that Scripture must be interpreted as a whole, and taking all of Scripture into consideration, that hell is not eternal, even though here it is.

The ironic thing is that the same arguments they use are being used here, and the answer to the argument is the same.

From The Desire of Ages we read:

quote:

---

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

---

This brings out:
1)The destruction of the wicked is not an arbitrary act of power from God, but rather something the wicked cause themselves.
2)The reap what they have sown.
3)They cut themselves off from life.
4)The glory of God, who is love, destroys them.

In DA 108 she writes that "the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked."

In COL 84 she writes,

quote:

---

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself.

---

Taking into account the above, it seems clear the answer to your question is that it is the wicked themselves who cause their destruction.

I'll respond to the GC Modern Revivals quote in the response to Mark's post.

---

quote:

---

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

---

quote:

---

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown.....

---

quote:

---

Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion.(DA 758)

---

quote:

---

Mike suggests you are missing something. I would suggest to you one aspect you're not paying enough attention to is the sovereignty of God. It is God who is the King. He enforces His laws. Everyone will give account to Him. We will all stand before His judgement seat.

---

quote:

---

Satan wants us to either believe God is a dictator or that He is only merciful. But He is not only merciful. As King, he is also just.

---

quote:

---

"Learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow". (Isaiah 1:17)

"This is what the LORD says: "`Administer justice every morning; rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed" (Jeremiah 21:12)

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: `Administer true justice: show mercy and compassion to one another. (Zechariah 7:9)

"Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion. For the LORD is a God of justice".( Isaiah 30:18)

---

quote:

---

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)

---

quote:

---

Tom:The principle that we have is that all that we need to know or can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son:

---

quote:

---

then the only way the idolaters could die would be for God to cease His protecting and sustaining work.

---

quote:

---

Regarding actions, God has options available to us that we do not have, since we are not the Sustainer of the universe, and do not protect from the forces of nature and of the forces of evil.

---

quote:

---

It appears to me that you believe that it is exactly by force and authority that God administers His government.

---

quote:

---

Had He removed His protecting power from the Red Sea, the Israelites would have drowned. God was under no obligation to continue His protection once the Israelites had reached the other side for a people who had made it clear that they did not desire His protection.

---

quote:

---

This is elementary logic.

---

quote:

---

Tom:It took longer than that. It took thousands of years.

---

quote:

---

The earth would be destroyed apart from the loving care which God provides.

---

quote:

---

Tom:You are asserting that the destruction of the Canaanites was not due to their choice?

---

quote:

---

Your view seems to hold that sin is powerless. It is not a destructive force.

---

quote:

---

Death is of the devil.

---

quote:

---

Wrong acts are not sanitized by right motivations. This is ALWAYS true.
Killing is wrong. This is NOT ALWAYS true.

You can't compare what is true with what is not always true; that's what I'm trying to say. If you want to compare the two then prove that killing is always wrong.

---

quote:

---

Wrong acts are not sanatized by right motivations. The end does not justify the means. God does not act contrary to the principles of His government.

"The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government."(DA 22)"Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work." (6T 388)"Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer." (MH 113) ""There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." (DA 487)

God always acts in harmony with these principles. Not only are His motives pure, but His actions are as well; God always acts in accordance with the principles of His government, which are simply that outworking of the attributes of His character. God always acts like Jesus Christ.

---

quote:

---

The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. {DA 22.1}

---

quote:

---

All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. (8T 286)

---

quote:

---

To know Jesus is to know the Father, and to see Jesus is to see the Father. It's that simple....

Jesus is the visible representation of the Father. Everything we need to know about God is disclosed in Him. In knowing Jesus there is nowhere else and no one else we need to look to in order to learn what God is like. (from Is God to Blame? by Greg Boyd)

---

quote:

---

18No one has ever seen God. But God, the one and only Son, is at the Father's side. He has shown us what God is like.

---

quote:

---

Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. (MH 113)

---

quote:

---

I didn't make this comparison. You were the one who jumped from my statement that wrong acts cannot be sanatized by right motivations. This is what I wrote:

---

quote:

---

Tom:What do you mean "their own breathren?"

---

quote:

---

Tom:Yes, this would be fine.

---

quote:

---

"Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?" In earthly governments there was nothing that could serve for a similitude. No civil society could afford Him a symbol. (COL 76)

---

quote:

---

19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.(Rom. 12:19-21)

---

quote:

---

God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power.(DA 759)

---

quote:

---

Tom:Earthly rulers act as you say. However...

---

quote:

---

“God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power.” (DA 759)

God will win the Great Controversy using His principles alone, truth and love, and NOT the principles of His enemy, which is compelling force.

---

quote:

---

A ruler establishes the rules for his kingdom and gives all his subjects time to accept or reject those rules, telling them plainly that all those who reject the rules will not be permitted to remain in the kingdom. Rebels are not only a threat to the loyal subjects but also make the kingdom an unhappy place. After the time expires, is he using force if he expels the rebels from his kingdom?

---

quote:

---

A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542, 543)

---

quote:

---

This (the destruction of Satan and those who unite with him) is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God....By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

---

quote:

---

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

---

quote:

---

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

---

quote:

---

A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God." (GC 543)

---

quote:

---

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy.(GC 36)

---

quote:

---

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart (Gen. 6:5,6)

---

quote:

---

You say that the justice of God is his mercy and grace.

---

quote:

---

Tom: I'm certainly in favor of justice. However, there is a difference between God's justice and man's justice. Man's idea of justice is eye for eye and tooth for tooth. It's based on retribution. However, God's idea of justice is based on love, mercy and compassion.

"18 Therefore the LORD will wait, that He may be gracious to you;And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you.
For the LORD is a God of justice;
Blessed are all those who wait for Him.(Isa. 30:18)"

God is a God of justice. Therefore He longs to be gracious to us.

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another."(Zech. 7:9)

This is God's idea of justice -- showing mercy and compassion.

---

quote:

---

What we see from the above Scriptures is that justice in Scripture involves setting things right. The way that God sets things right is by mercy and compassion.

---

quote:

---

My question is whether you balancing it with the rest of scripture and Ellen White’s writings. I don’t think you are because for example you insist that God’s justice is the same as His mercy ...

---

quote:

---

Tom, I agree that we Adventists tend to overlook some of the scripture and EGW passages that you are focused on. So what you are saying is needed. My question is whether you balancing it with the rest of scripture and Ellen White’s writings. I don’t think you are because for example you insist that God’s justice is the same as His mercy, and you do not concede valid points regarding the destruction of the idolatrous Hebrews at the golden calf, the Egyptians at the Red Sea, the antediluvians at the flood. When you are up against some of these points, you resort to the plea that Christ is the full picture – other scripture that appears to show another side to the character of God can be overruled by the life of Christ which is a complete revelation.

---

quote:

---

The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken.... To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. {DA 22.1}

---

quote:

---

...the whole purpose of His own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.(ST 1/20/90)

---

quote:

---

All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. (8T 236)

---

quote:

---

The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary. (GW 315)

---

quote:

---

When Babylon is finally judged, the saints are commanded to rejoice because God has avenged their blood. With your theology, I do not see how you will be able to obey that command. I picture you saying to yourself, no, God didn’t do that. How can I rejoice? That was Satan’s work! Those sentiments would be as out of harmony with the spirit of the occasion as it would be for you to stand weeping by the Red Sea for Pharoah and his men while Merriam lead the hosts of Israel in rejoicing before God, and which the Jews today still thank God for – rightly. If God commands us to rejoice in His deliverance, will you weep?

---

quote:

---

"People of Ephraim, how can I give you up?
Israel, how can I hand you over to your enemies?
Can I destroy you as I did the town of Admah?
Can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is stirred inside me.
It is filled with pity for you. (Hosea 11:8)

---

quote:

---

Those who think of the result of hastening or hindering the gospel think of it in relation to themselves and to the world. Few think of its relation to God. Few give thought to the suffering that sin has caused our Creator. All heaven suffered in Christ's agony; but that suffering did not begin or end with His manifestation in humanity. The cross is a revelation to our dull senses of the pain that, from its very inception, sin has brought to the heart of God. Every departure from the right, every deed of cruelty, every failure of humanity to reach His ideal, brings grief to Him. When there came upon Israel the calamities that were the sure result of separation from God,--subjugation by their enemies, cruelty, and death, --it is said that "His soul was grieved for the misery of Israel." "In all their affliction He was afflicted: . . . and He bare them, and carried them all the days of old." Judges 10:16; Isaiah 63:9. (Ed 263)

---

quote:

---

"The government of the kingdom of Christ is like no earthly government. It is a representation of the characters of those who compose the kingdom. 'Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God?' Christ asked, 'or with what comparison shall we liken it?' He could find nothing on earth that would serve as a perfect comparison. His court is one where holy love presides, and whose offices and appointments are graced by the exercise of charity. He charges His servants to bring pity and loving-kindness, His own attributes, into all their office work, and to find their happiness and satisfaction in reflecting the love and tender compassion of the divine nature on all with whom they associate." The Review and Herald, March 19, 1908.

---

quote:

---

The Saviour bade His disciples not to hope that the world's enmity to the gospel would be overcome, and that after a time its opposition would cease. He said, "I came not to send peace, but a sword." This creating of strife is not the effect of the gospel, but the result of opposition to it.(DA 357)

---

quote:

---

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

---

quote:

---

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 35, 36)

---

quote:

---

The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy.

---

quote:

---

Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.

---

quote:

---

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.(Rev.20:10)

---

quote:

---

How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live. Yet this doctrine has been widely taught and is still embodied in many of the creeds of Christendom. Said a learned doctor of divinity: "The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. When they see others who are of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, it will make them sensible of how happy they are." Another used these words: "While the decree of reprobation is eternally executing on the vessels of wrath, the smoke of their torment will be eternally ascending in view of the vessels of mercy, who, instead of taking the part of these miserable objects, will say, Amen, Alleluia! praise ye the Lord!"

Where, in the pages of God's word, is such teaching to be found? Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage? No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God. Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11. (GC 535)

---

quote:

---

"There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." The Desire of Ages, 487.

---

quote:

---

"Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer." The Ministry of Healing, 113.

---

quote:

---

"Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. (DA 79)

---

quote:

---

The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." The Great Controversy, 36.

---

quote:

---

"In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light which streams from the cross of Calvary, and in connection with the wondrous, central truth of the Saviour's atonement. (5ABC 1137)

---

quote:

---

"All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." Testimonies for the Church, 8:286.

---

quote:

---

Your unrelated arguments against these plain testimonies are irrelevant.

---

quote:

---

"In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light which streams from the cross of Calvary, and in connection with the wondrous, central truth of the Saviour's atonement. (5ABC 1137)

---

quote:

---

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

---

quote:

---

As I pointed out, you will find not one example of your methodology in inspiration (i.e. the proof text method; a listing of texts devoid of reasoning or logical development).

---

quote:

---

The method seen in inspiration is exactly the one I quoted to you from the Spirit of Prophesy. A well reasoned argument based on principles which are revealed in Scripture.

---

quote:

---

I have come up with a theory based on what I have read in creation science literature and what has been revealed in inspiration, keeping in mind that Scripture does not contradict itself.

---

quote:

---

If you wish to assert that God caused the flood in some means which is contrary to what I have suggested (His removing His protective and sustaining hand, which allowed the waters of the earth to burst forth) then you should adduce some evidence to support you view.

---

quote:

---

The time of trouble is the crucible that is to bring out Christ-like characters. It is designed to lead the people of God to renounce Satan and his temptations. The last conflict will reveal Satan to them in his true character, that of a cruel tyrant, and it will do for them what nothing else could do, uproot him entirely from their affections. For to love and cherish sin, is to love and cherish its author, that deadly foe of Christ. When they excuse sin and cling to perversity of character, they give Satan a place in their affections, and pay him homage. The Review and Herald, August 12, 1884.

---

quote:

---

By placing a one-sided construction on the passages you quote, you have arrived at a position where you will not be in harmony with God. It should give you pause.

To which I asked:Doesn't this pronoucement seem a bit popish? "You have arrived at a position where you will not be in harmony with God." Do you disagree? Or do you see nothing wrong in statements such as this?

I am very interested in knowing your response to these questions.

---

quote:

---

"In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light which streams from the cross of Calvary, and in connection with the wondrous, central truth of the Saviour's atonement. Those who study the Redeemer's wonderful sacrifice grow in grace and knowledge." The SDA Bible Commentary, 5:1137

---

quote:

---

"All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." Testimonies for the Church, 8:286.

---

quote:

---

What do you make of the text Tom, that we will judge angels? If sin does all the punishing on its own and God has nothing to do with punishment, how can God along with those who sit with Him on His throne ‘bring every work into judgment’? How can God and the saints claim be the judge of anything in the universe if sin is the exclusive agent of punishment?

---

quote:

---

You claim to be rehabilitating the character of God, undoing the misguided work of many Christians and Adventists

---

quote:

---

The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. (DA 176)

---

quote:

---

God's law in not a list of arbitary rules concocted by a picky control freak who wants everything to go His way. It is simply the only way to live in harmony with love, and to live in love is the only way to perpetutate life into eternity. Sin is not merely an alternative way of doing things which happens to be contrary to God's opinion. Sin is violation of the life-sustaining principle of love spelled out in God's law. All sin, therefore, is selfishness at root level...

The right way is right because it is sustains life. The wrong way is wrong because it destroys life. There is absolutely no arbitrary element in God's character. Things are the way they are because they are, by very nature, that way, and must by that way in order for life to flourish. Do not hear God saying, "If you sin, I'll kill you; but if you do things My way, I'll let you live." Rather, hear Him speak the true reality of the matter: "If you pursue sin, it will destroy you; but if you turn to Me and embrace My lofe, that love will restore and sustain you for all eternity.

God's law=love=life.
Sin=selfishness=death.

(See With New Eyes pp. 89-90; emphasis mine)

---

quote:

---

"There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." The Desire of Ages, 487.

---

quote:

---

"Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer." The Ministry of Healing, 113.

---

quote:

---

"Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. (DA 79)

---

quote:

---

The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." The Great Controversy, 36.

---

quote:

---

"In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light which streams from the cross of Calvary, and in connection with the wondrous, central truth of the Saviour's atonement. (5ABC 1137)

---

quote:

---

"All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." Testimonies for the Church, 8:286.

---

quote:

---

Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. The Ministry of Healing, 113.

---

quote:

---

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. (Gen. 7:11, 12)

---

quote:

---

Actually, in Genesis, chapter 7 it states that the waters rose higher in respect to the land for 150 days, and went down for the subsequent 150 days. The total time of the Great Flood was about 1 year in length from when Noah's family entered till they left the Ark. That's what it has always clearly stated. Period. But it also appears to have rained pretty darned hard for the first 40 days and nights of this pivotal time (and there were strong winds, Gen. 8:1). There is clearly no evidence that rain caused the Flood and modern creationists have never contended this.Forgive me here, but only evolutionists keep this false notion propped up in order to openly distain creation theory including the Flood.(emphasis mine)

---

quote:

---

There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." The Desire of Ages, 487.

---

quote:

---

"Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer." The Ministry of Healing, 113.

---

quote:

---

"Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. (DA 79)

---

quote:

---

The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." The Great Controversy, 36.

---

quote:

---

In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light which streams from the cross of Calvary, and in connection with the wondrous, central truth of the Saviour's atonement. (5ABC 1137)

---

quote:

---

"All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." Testimonies for the Church, 8:286.

---

quote:

---

In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light which streams from the cross of Calvary, and in connection with the wondrous, central truth of the Saviour's atonement.

---

quote:

---

This is just an idea. Inspiration doesn't tell us exactly how the flood occured. What we do know is that the principles of God are eternal; He doesn't change. Inspiration doesn't contradict itself.

---

quote:

---

I've asked you repeatedly to explain how your theory of things agrees with the above quotes, but you have heretofore refused to even make an attempt to do so.

---

quote:

---

Under great pressure? Ready to burst forth? Super naturally held back by God? Where are such ideas indicated in the Bible or the SOP?

---

quote:

---

Massive amounts of water burst out of the ground.

When the Flood began, something was "broken up."

"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep [tehom] broken up [baqa] and the windows of heaven were opened."

What had happened?

Inside the earth were multiplied thousands of interconnected channels and springs of waters. These provided a vast watering system for the entire earth. As the first rains of the Flood began falling,—this vast system was "broken up," or baqa. These channels and underground pools were torn open and ripped apart violently! Baqa means a "violent cleavage." We have not here a gurgling forth of an artesian spring, but rather the most violent bursting forth of hundreds of thousands of subterranean water sources! One example of this would be Eccl 10:9, in which a man cleaves a block of wood with an axe: a powerful, quick thrust followed by a bursting apart. The presence of baqa also helps to graphically explain two other historical events: As the Israelites approached the Red Sea, the waters burst aside to make room for their passage ("divides" Ex 14:16). As Korah and his associates stood defiantly, the ground beneath their feet exploded sideways, and they and their possessions fell into the chasm which had opened.

Proverbs 3:19 speaks of Creation; Proverbs 3:20 of the Flood, "when the depths are broken up."

Isaiah 35:6 and Psalm 78:15 mention the mighty miracle which occurred when Moses hit the face of a rock monolith with a stick—and a powerful cleavage ripped apart, out of which pure water poured.

The Hebrew word, baqa, is used to describe the breaking up of the immense fountains of the great deep (tehom). Pictured here is a gigantic cleavage of the crust of the earth, with oceans of water exploding outward from those fissures in continual commotion.
3 - FOUNTAINS OF THE GREAT DEEP

Water in violent commotion.

Psalm 78:15, mentioned above, includes both the words, baqa and tehom,—just as we find in Genesis: "In the sixth hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep [tehom] broken up [baqa] and the windows of heaven were opened" (Gen 7:11). One would expect to find, in Hebrew, "fountains of waters" (mayim), but instead we are presented with "fountains of the great deep" (tehom). "Tehom" specifically means "water in violent commotion, making a great noise."

An understanding of these Hebrew words is enabling us to obtain a better understanding of what the Flood was like!

In Psalm 23:2, we are told about the "still waters," the mayim. But in Genesis 7:11, we are told about the tehom, not the mayim. Those of you who have lived near the ocean, as the present writer has, can understand something of the violence of large, rapidly moving waters. An entire earlier section of this chapter describes the destruction that storm waves can produce. Psalm 42:7 uses tehom to describe the turbid violence of those waves. Exodus 15 speaks of the intense destructive capacity of turbulent waters restrained by the hand of God (15:8), and afterward when they covered the enemies of God's people (15:5).

So, in tehom, we have a description of massive quantities of water in violent, turbid commotion!

---

quote:

---

There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." The Desire of Ages, 487.

---

quote:

---

Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer." The Ministry of Healing, 113.

---

quote:

---

Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. (DA 79)

---

quote:

---

The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." The Great Controversy, 36.

---

quote:

---

In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light which streams from the cross of Calvary, and in connection with the wondrous, central truth of the Saviour's atonement. (5ABC 1137)

---

quote:

---

All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." Testimonies for the Church, 8:286.

---

quote:

---

[1] Some disbelieved in the existence of God, and in their own minds accounted for the Flood from natural causes. [2] Others believed that God existed and that He destroyed the antediluvian race by a flood; and their feelings, like Cain's, rose in rebellion against God because He destroyed the people from the earth and cursed the earth the third time by a flood…. Those who did not believe in God imagined if their tower could reach unto the clouds, they would be able to discover reasons for the Flood. {SR 72.1, 3}

---

quote:

---

You've asked me four times now Tom about whether your position should give you pause regarding the sorrow you suggested one should feel at the death of those who align themselves with Babylon.

---

quote:

---

Mark, you wrote:By placing a one-sided construction on the passages you quote, you have arrived at a position where you will not be in harmony with God. It should give you pause.

To which I asked:Doesn't this pronoucement seem a bit popish? "You have arrived at a position where you will not be in harmony with God." Do you disagree? Or do you see nothing wrong in statements such as this?

---