What is the Wrath of God?

Posted By: APL

What is the Wrath of God? - 06/19/13 02:49 AM

The Bible leaves us in no doubt that God hates sin, and He abhors evil. It also leaves us in no doubt that God is not the source or cause of evil. There is no evil in God. In fact God so hates sin that He cannot even look at it. “Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.” Hebrews 1:9

“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.” James 1:13-17

“The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” Psalms 145:17

“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:” 1 John 1:5-6

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil… In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” 1 John 3:8; 1 John 3:10.

Why does God hate sin? God hates sin because sin separates His creatures from Him and thereby destroys them.

“But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.” Isaiah 59:2

“Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.” Psalms 34:21

“For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.” Psalms 1:6

Sin is telling God to depart. And God knows, and we need to know too, that when He departs the end-result is destruction.“Hast thou marked the old way which wicked men have trodden?

Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood: Which said unto God, Depart from us: and what can the Almighty do for them?” Job 22:15-17

“O Lord, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living waters.” Jeremiah 17:13

“And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.” Isaiah 1:28

Going back now to Isaiah 59:2 we see clearly that sin separates between creature and Creator and hides His face from His creatures.

“Behold, the Lord’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.” Isaiah 59:1-2

Furthermore Isaiah 54:7-8 defines the mechanism of wrath as the hiding of God’s face.

“In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.” Isaiah 54:8

“How long, Lord? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?” Psalms 89:46

“Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.” Psalms 27:9

“Lord, by thy favour thou hast made my mountain to stand strong: thou didst hide thy face, and I was troubled.” Psalms 30:7

“Hear me speedily, O Lord: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit.” Psalms 143:7

Now how does God exercise His wrath?

Perhaps the clearest New Testament answer (other than the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ) was given by Paul in Romans Chapter One.

In Romans 1:18 Paul states clearly that the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all sin.

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;” Romans 1:18

In Romans 1:19-23 Paul shows that there is no excuse for sin or godlessnesss. Then in Romans 1:24 he also explains how God exercises wrath. Paul states in Romans 1:24.

“WHEREFORE GOD ALSO GAVE THEM UP .…”

Paul repeats this explanation in Romans 1:26

“FOR THIS CAUSE GOD GAVE THEM UP.…”

And in Romans 1:28

“… GOD GAVE THEM OVER….”

Paul is clear in Romans 1:18-28 that God excercises His wrath by “giving up” the sinner to reap the consequences of sin.

But where did Paul get this explanation from? The only scriptures available in his day were the scriptures of the Old Testament.

Can we find this explanation in the Old Testament?

Yes!

Wrath, in all its various linguistic descriptions, was inflicted upon Israel and Judah with frequent regularity in the Old Testament Era.

In Deuteronomy chapter 28, God, through Moses, had given to the Israelites a list of the blessings of obedience (Deuteronomy 28:1-15), and a very much longer list of the curses of disobedience (Deuteronomy 28:15-68).

Let us now examine the language used to describe the curses, as we examine some of the verses in Deuteronomy 28:15-68.

Consider these verses.

“The Lord shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.The Lord shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it. The Lord shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.

The Lord will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed. The Lord shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:

Then the Lord will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance. Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they

shall cleave unto thee. Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the Lord bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.” Deuteronomy 28:20-22; Deuteronomy 28:27-28; Deuteronomy 28:59-61.

Each of these texts describes Israel’s punishment as striking them by a direct decree or a direct act of God.

But wait a minute!

Let us turn in our Bibles to Deuteronomy 31:16-18.

“And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.” Deuteronomy 31:16-18.

Deuteronomy 31:17 explains very clearly the meaning and mechanism of wrath. When the Israelites forsook God by rejecting His loving invitations and warnings, He forsook them, His face was hid from them and all the evils which befell them happened because God was not among them.

It is very clear then that the mechanism of God’s wrath is the separation caused by sin. It is this separation between God and sinners that produces the “punishment.”

For futher confirmation refer to the following texts:

“Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.” Psalms 34:21

“But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.” Isaiah 59:2

“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted,

when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.” James 1:13-15

“Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?” Deuteronomy 31:17

The punishments do not come by the direct decreee or direct infliction by God. NO! The punishments come from sin itself as it separates from God. The problem with us is that we try to understand God’s wrath in terms of human wrath, but this is one thing we should never do. The reason is written down in James 1:20.

“For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.” James 1:20

Human wrath transgresses God’s law and therefore is sin. God’s wrath is righteous it does not act contrary to God’s law of love. God exercises His wrath by giving up those who reject Him. This “giving up” may be partial or complete as we shall learn from later studies.

To further clarify this point, consider Hosea 11:7-9.

“And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him. How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? mine heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together. I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.” Hosea 11:7-9.

God asked His ancient people a question in Hosea 11:8. “HOW SHALL I GIVE THEE UP, EPHRAIM? How shall I deliver thee Israel?”

And notice (in Hosea 11:8) that in giving them up He would be making them as Admah and Zeboim, cities of the plain, which were destroyed with Sodom and Gomorrah (See Genesis 14:2; Genesis 19:24-25). This principle in these verses will be important in our understanding of the flood and who/what brought about the flood.

But understand from Hosea 11:9 that His giving them up was equivalent to:

(i) executing the fierceness of His anger and

(ii) destroying them.


Hosea 11:7-9 then, establishes the following identity of meanings:

GOD’S WRATH = HIS GIVING THEM UP = THE EXECUTION OF HIS FIERCE ANGER = HIS DESTROYING THEM

And remember Isaiah 59:2; Isaiah 54:8 which explain that God’s wrath is the hiding of His face caused by sin. It is the terrible separation, caused by sin, which produces destruction according to the principles of Jeremiah 17:13 and James 1:13-15.

Another term employed in scripture to describe wrath is the term HE SPARED NOT. Consider 2 Peter 2:4-6.

“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;” 2 Peter 2:4-6.

We now come to a crucial point. Jesus suffered the wrath of God for us. “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”2 Cor. 5:21

“What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?” Romans 8:31-32

God spared not the angels who sinned.

God spared not the pre-flood world.

God spared not the cities of the plain: Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim.

God spared not His Son!


“Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” Isaiah 53:4-6.

Now the critical question.

Will He spare us? Yes, but only in Christ!

“Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;” Hebrews 2:1-3.

Courtesy of Elliot Douglin
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/19/13 05:07 AM

I will just repeat what I said in the other thread:

Quote:
God’s wrath is directed towards sin, not towards people. When the limit of God’s forbearance is reached, He may give individuals over to the results of their choice, but this is not at all the definition of God’s wrath. God’s wrath is the manifestation of His displeasure against sin.


Can this manifestation of God's displeasure against sin happen by His permitting the sinner to reap the consequences of his sin? Sure, many times this is what happens. But sometimes God actively makes the sinner reap the consequences of his sin. This was seen, for instance, when God commanded His people to kill offenders, like in the episode related in Numbers 25:

Their iniquitous practices did that for Israel which all the enchantments of Balaam could not do--they separated them from God. By swift-coming judgments the people were awakened to the enormity of their sin. A terrible pestilence broke out in the camp, to which tens of thousands speedily fell a prey. God commanded that the leaders in this apostasy be put to death by the magistrates. This order was promptly obeyed. The offenders were slain, then their bodies were hung up in sight of all Israel that the congregation, seeing the leaders so severely dealt with, might have a deep sense of God's abhorrence of their sin and the terror of His wrath against them.{PP 455.1}

This is also seen in the death penalty and in the holy wars of Israel.

What happened in the case of Christ and will happen in the case of the wicked is the judgment and condemnation of sin, which causes in the sinner such a weight of guilt and such a sense of the separation from God that it crushes him.
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/19/13 09:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela

What happened in the case of Christ and will happen in the case of the wicked is the judgment and condemnation of sin, which causes in the sinner such a weight of guilt and such a sense of the separation from God that it crushes him.


Mark 15:34
And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/20/13 04:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
when God commanded His people
Did they always follow what God commanded?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/20/13 07:55 PM

?
When they didn't, they were rebelling against God's will.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/21/13 06:17 PM

So they rebel against God's will in some things and not others then.

So why is it they did not rebel when God told them to kill people, but yet they did rebel when God told them He would do the fighting for them?

Sounds to me to be a good argument that they liked to kill. And God said, if you are going to kill, this is the way to do it or worse things will happen to you. So they accepted that part of God's advice, but not previous advice.

Where did they get the weapons to kill them with?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/22/13 04:45 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
So they rebel against God's will in some things and not others then.

So why is it they did not rebel when God told them to kill people, but yet they did rebel when God told them He would do the fighting for them?

Sounds to me to be a good argument that they liked to kill. And God said, if you are going to kill, this is the way to do it or worse things will happen to you. So they accepted that part of God's advice, but not previous advice.

Where did they get the weapons to kill them with?

Perhaps you have forgotten Ai, King Saul and Agag, or other cases in which the people rebelled by NOT killing those they were supposed to kill.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/22/13 07:41 PM

Quote:
Sounds to me to be a good argument that they liked to kill. And God said, if you are going to kill, this is the way to do it or worse things will happen to you. So they accepted that part of God's advice, but not previous advice.

So, because they liked to kill, God complied with their wishes, instituting the death penalty and blessing them with victories in the wars?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/22/13 08:30 PM

The people wanted a king - God made provision for a king. Did God stop working with them at that point?

The people wanted divorce - God made provision for divorce. Did God stop working with them at that point?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/22/13 11:49 PM

God didn't command them to divorce nor to set a king over them, while He commanded people to be killed and wars to be fought.

Examples:

1) The episode of the golden calf.

"'Thus says the LORD God of Israel: Each man put his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and kill each one his brother, and each one his neighbor, and each one his kindred.' And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses. And there fell of the people that day about three thousand men" (Ex. 32:27,28).

"Though God had granted the prayer of Moses in sparing Israel from destruction, their apostasy was to be signally punished. The lawlessness and insubordination into which Aaron had permitted them to fall, if not speedily crushed, would run riot in wickedness, and would involve the nation in irretrievable ruin. By terrible severity the evil must be put away. ... Moses now commanded those upon his right hand, who had kept themselves clear of idolatry, to gird on their swords and slay all who persisted in rebellion. 'And there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.' Without regard to position, kindred, or friendship, the ringleaders in wickedness were cut off; but all who repented and humbled themselves were spared. Those who performed this terrible work of judgment were acting by divine authority, executing the sentence of the King of heaven. Men are to beware how they, in their human blindness, judge and condemn their fellow men; but when God commands them to execute His sentence upon iniquity, He is to be obeyed. Those who performed this painful act, thus manifested their abhorrence of rebellion and idolatry, and consecrated themselves more fully to the service of the true God. The Lord honored their faithfulness by bestowing special distinction upon the tribe of Levi." {PP 324}

2)The destruction of the inhabitants of Canaan.

"When the LORD your God shall bring you into the land where you go to possess it, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you, and the LORD your God shall deliver them before you, b]you shall crush them, completely destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them[/b]" (Deut. 7:1,2).

It is one of the greatest deceptions that can come upon the mind to imagine ourselves more merciful or just than God. ... Had the Lord spared the inhabitants of Canaan, the Israelites would have been in constant danger of contamination. ...Hence the repeated command addressed to them, to dispossess the Canaanites, by every means in their power, and as fast as they were able to subdue them. The Israelites were not to yield to cowardice, sloth, or self-indulgence, nor to set up their ideas of clemency in opposition to the command of God. ... God knew the dangers to which his people would be exposed. Satan would work through those corrupt idolaters to destroy Israel. ... The apparent severity of God's dealings with the Canaanites did not, as many suppose, proceed from harshness or cruelty. The love of God is beyond our comprehension; it is high as the heavens, and broad as the universe. Every soul whom he has created is precious in his sight,-- so precious that he gave his only begotten Son to die for that lost, perishing sinner. When men shall manifest toward their fellow-creatures a love superior to this, then they may talk of compassion where God has exercised severity.” {ST, January 13, 1881}
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/23/13 06:18 AM

Notice some key words of EGW. "The apparent severity of God's dealings" Apparent?

Question - The case of the Golden Calf was an act of rebellion, right? So color all that you have quoted with this from EGW:
Originally Posted By: EGW
Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}
Question - do you hear something different in this quote than your quotes Rosangela? Do you see a disconnect here or not? There is a solution...
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/23/13 07:07 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Notice some key words of EGW. "The apparent severity of God's dealings" Apparent?

Question - The case of the Golden Calf was an act of rebellion, right? So color all that you have quoted with this from EGW:
Originally Posted By: EGW
Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}
Question - do you hear something different in this quote than your quotes Rosangela? Do you see a disconnect here or not? There is a solution...

I would say part of your solution lies in the definition of words like "force" and "compelling power." These words speak to forcing an individual to act against his or her will. These words do not speak of what one might do to punish those who offend.

Remember, God punishes rebels. "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry" (1 Samuel 15:23). What was to be done with a witch? "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" (Exodus 22:18).

In other words, punishing the witch with death is not the same as forcing the witch to become a Christian. God does not force the will. But God punishes. There is a definite line in between.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/23/13 08:19 AM

So rebellion is only overcome by killing the rebel and that is not force? Very interesting....
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/23/13 08:29 AM

APL,

  1. The law of God is a representation of His character. I'm sure you're well aware of this.
  2. The law says transgressors must die. I think you know this, too.
  3. Anyone who dies, then, has received punishment according to the law.

If receiving one's punishment equals "force," then you have defined God as a God of force, in direct contradiction to what we are told through the pen of inspiration.

Punishment is not forced, however, as anyone had probationary time to choose God's salvation. Their choice was not forced, which is why many will have chosen the way of death, and have been allowed their freedom to choose such.

Having made their choice, it is granted them, according to the love of God who allowed them their choice.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/23/13 08:41 AM

Originally Posted By: EJW
To do what God tells us not to do, or not to do what He tells us to do, is to go in the way of death. This is not because God punishes with death those who do not obey Him, but because sin itself brings forth death. Sin is the evil seed of which death is the bitter fruit. {June 12, 1902 EJW, PTUK 378.6}


Let the aged men who were pioneers in our work speak plainly. (Manuscript 62, 1905)

Repeat the words of the pioneers in our work, who knew what it cost to search for the truth as for hidden treasure, and who labored to lay the foundation of our work. (Review and Herald, March 25, 1905)
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/23/13 08:53 AM

I BELIEVE THE BIBLE

Originally Posted By: The Holy Scriptures

And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones [that are] on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all [them which are] circumcised with the uncircumcised; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all [that are] in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all [these] nations [are] uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel [are] uncircumcised in the heart.

Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, I will punish them: ...
But I will punish you according to the fruit of your doings, saith the LORD: ...
...I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity...

Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite, and his seed: he shall not have a man to dwell among this people; neither shall he behold the good that I will do for my people, saith the LORD; because he hath taught rebellion against the LORD.

And this [shall be] a sign unto you, saith the LORD, that I will punish you in this place, that ye may know that my words shall surely stand against you for evil:

The LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saith; Behold, I will punish the multitude of No, and Pharaoh, and Egypt, with their gods, and their kings; even Pharaoh, and [all] them that trust in him:

Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will punish the king of Babylon and his land, as I have punished the king of Assyria.

The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him.

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:


Don't you believe the Bible, APL?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/23/13 10:37 AM

You did not answer the question. By your reply, am I to understand that you do not agree with the quotation? It is hard to argue such plain statements that our pioneers believed. They understood the scriptures.

Deuteronomy 32:22-30
22 My anger will flame up like fire and burn everything on earth. It will reach to the world below and consume the roots of the mountains.
23 " 'I will bring on them endless disasters and use all my arrows against them.
24 They will die from hunger and fever; they will die from terrible diseases. I will send wild animals to attack them, and poisonous snakes to bite them.
25 War will bring death in the streets; terrors will strike in the homes. Young men and young women will die; neither babies nor old people will be spared.
26 I would have destroyed them completely, so that no one would remember them.
27 But I could not let their enemies boast that they had defeated my people, when it was I myself who had crushed them.'
28 "Israel is a nation without sense; they have no wisdom at all.
29 They fail to see why they were defeated; they cannot understand what happened.
30 Why were a thousand defeated by one, and ten thousand by only two? The LORD, their God, had abandoned them; their mighty God had given them up.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/23/13 10:40 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
You did not answer the question. By your reply, am I to understand that you do not agree with the quotation? It is hard to argue such plain statements that our pioneers believed. They understood the scriptures.

APL,

You used this same quotation in another thread where I already answered it. Were you wanting to hear me say it twice?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/23/13 11:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
You did not answer the question. By your reply, am I to understand that you do not agree with the quotation? It is hard to argue such plain statements that our pioneers believed. They understood the scriptures.

APL,

You used this same quotation in another thread where I already answered it. Were you wanting to hear me say it twice?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Hm - threads often are not answered or read at the same time. I know you do not believe this statement as being truth. I know you also do not believe EGW's similar quotes, such as GC36. But then, I quoted that on another thread.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/23/13 08:10 PM

Quote:
Notice some key words of EGW. "The apparent severity of God's dealings" Apparent?

Yes, apparent. APL, if my horse breaks his leg irreparably, do you think I should let the animal continue living in agony, because if kill him I don't love him; on the contrary, I'm heartless, mercyless and cruel?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/23/13 09:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Notice some key words of EGW. "The apparent severity of God's dealings" Apparent?

Yes, apparent. APL, if my horse breaks his leg irreparably, do you think I should let the animal continue living in agony, because if kill him I don't love him; on the contrary, I'm heartless, mercyless and cruel?
Did you miss the key point of the post about rebellion?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/23/13 09:41 PM

Flesh it out, please.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/23/13 10:35 PM

It was comment #153518.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/24/13 08:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
If receiving one's punishment equals "force," then you have defined God as a God of force, in direct contradiction to what we are told through the pen of inspiration.
I believe you are saying the same thing as APL was saying:
Originally Posted By: APL
So color all that you have quoted with this from EGW:
Originally Posted By: EGW
Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}
Question - do you hear something different in this quote than your quotes Rosangela? Do you see a disconnect here or not? There is a solution...



Quote:
Punishment is not forced, however, as anyone had probationary time to choose God's salvation. Their choice was not forced, which is why many will have chosen the way of death, and have been allowed their freedom to choose such.

And Hitler told the men, "See it my way or else".
Then a few minutes later, "They had their time, but they still refuse. Take 'em out back." A few "pops" are heard.

Sure glad no force was used there. shocked
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/24/13 09:05 PM

Quote:
It was comment #153518.

What I didn't understand was what "rebellion" had to do with my comment.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/24/13 09:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
It was comment #153518.

What I didn't understand was what "rebellion" had to do with my comment.
? The golden calf episode was not rebellion???
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/24/13 09:58 PM

?
So?

This is what we were talking about:

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Notice some key words of EGW. "The apparent severity of God's dealings" Apparent?

Yes, apparent. APL, if my horse breaks his leg irreparably, do you think I should let the animal continue living in agony, because if kill him I don't love him; on the contrary, I'm heartless, mercyless and cruel?

Did you miss the key point of the post about rebellion?


So, what does "rebellion" have to do with my comment: "if my horse breaks his leg irreparably, do you think I should let the animal continue living in agony, because if kill him I don't love him; on the contrary, I'm heartless, mercyless and cruel?"

It only would have to do with my comment in the fact that rebellion is many times incurable, just like an irreparable fracture in the leg of a horse.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 01:24 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
It was comment #153518.

What I didn't understand was what "rebellion" had to do with my comment.
? The golden calf episode was not rebellion???
Ah, follow the flow of comments? #153518 followed immediately #153509.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 04:16 AM

You are pitting Ellen White against herself. Rebellion wouldn't be overcome by force, that is, sin wouldn't be summarily exterminated by God without giving any explanation, thus compelling His subjects to serve Him for fear. But this doesn’t mean that God will permit sin to go unchecked because He can’t do anything that goes against the sinner’s wishes.

The passage says:

"Though God had granted the prayer of Moses in sparing Israel from destruction, their apostasy was to be signally punished. The lawlessness and insubordination into which Aaron had permitted them to fall, if not speedily crushed, would run riot in wickedness, and would involve the nation in irretrievable ruin. By terrible severity the evil must be put away. ... Those who performed this terrible work of judgment were acting by divine authority, executing the sentence of the King of heaven. {PP 324}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 05:40 AM

Indeed. "Signally punished." This means all those watching would sit up and take note. It would be a clear case of punishment. None would be left in doubt as to what had happened. The "terrible severity" was needed. It would help prevent many others from following the evil example of those who were punished.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 06:18 AM

Originally Posted By: rosangela
You are pitting Ellen White against herself.
this is why you need to take ALL the writings as a whole, EGW and the Bible, and Miller's rules point this out.

As Rosangela and Green so clearly point out, it is God that we need to be afraid of!!! Look, if you mess up, God will PUNISH you! It is God that kills, not sin.

Of course, if you REALLY want to see what God is like, then look at Jesus. Jesus is the exact representation of the Father, John 14:9. The Father sent the Son to save us, but if we reject the Son, they both will KILL us. Really? No. God is the restorer. All the writings must be put together, such as "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression". THAT is a plain statement, for which all other statements on the topic MUST be considered.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 06:36 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: rosangela
You are pitting Ellen White against herself.
this is why you need to take ALL the writings as a whole, EGW and the Bible, and Miller's rules point this out.

As Rosangela and Green so clearly point out, it is God that we need to be afraid of!!! Look, if you mess up, God will PUNISH you! It is God that kills, not sin.

Of course, if you REALLY want to see what God is like, then look at Jesus. Jesus is the exact representation of the Father, John 14:9. The Father sent the Son to save us, but if we reject the Son, they both will KILL us. Really? No. God is the restorer. All the writings must be put together, such as "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression". THAT is a plain statement, for which all other statements on the topic MUST be considered.


APL,

You are not speaking truthfully. Rosangela and myself have but given you statements from none other than Mrs. White and the Bible. How can you set yourself up against them? How can you deem your own reasoning to be superior to their clear instruction?

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
To man, as being endowed with reasoning powers and conscience, God's moral law is given to control his actions. Man is not compelled to obey. He may defy God's law, as did Adam, and take the fearful consequences; or by living in harmony with that law he may reap the rewards of obedience. {ST, January 23, 1879 par. 15}


You can choose death, in which case God will grant your wish, or you may choose life. You are not compelled against your will. You have a choice in how you live. But you will not afterward also choose your reward for your actions. The reward is plainly set out from the beginning. God has not deceived you. You may know the truth, and the truth will set you free from sin and its penalty. But should you choose to remain in sin, you will be consumed with it by God's glory.

What does "stand toward" mean, APL? Does it not mean "take the attitude of" or "represent [Himself] as"? God is not desiring the execution of any sinner. But that He will execute is nonetheless plain.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 06:55 AM

Ellen White tells us the following:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Will God abolish his law because Adam sinned? Had he done this, he would have immortalized sin, which is the transgression of his law. No, this would have been impossible. Wherever there is a kingdom there must be statutes and laws, and the law of God is the transcript of his character. But provisions had been made in the counsels of the Father and the Son to meet this emergency. It had been provided that, should Adam fall a prey to the tempter's power, a ransom should be found in the Son of God, who should become man's Redeemer. An opportunity should be given to man to repent of his sin, and, through faith in Christ as his personal Saviour, to be restored to the divine image and favor. After the fall, the Lord said unto the serpent, "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." {ST, October 8, 1894 par. 7}


This clarifies that even though man broke the law, the law which required the law-breaker to die, God would not abolish this law. It was still in force. The only thing God could do was to fulfill the law via the ransom of Christ.

It is clear that the law which requires one's death is the law of God, not the law of "sin." The origin of the death penalty is God's own character. Sin cannot exist in His presence. His presence is designed to be manifest everywhere throughout His realm--the Universe. It is only His mercy that has hidden His face from us to prevent us from an instant death. But He will not hide His face forever.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 07:52 AM

Originally Posted By: green
You are not speaking truthfully. Rosangela and myself have but given you statements from none other than Mrs. White and the Bible. How can you set yourself up against them? How can you deem your own reasoning to be superior to their clear instruction?
And I have not given you statements from the Bible and EGW? I have. Miller's rules of Bible interpretation are good one to follow. The 4th one states the following:
4. To understand doctrine, bring all the Scriptures together on the subject you wish to know; then let every word have its proper influence, and if you can form your theory without a contradiction, you cannot be in an error.Isaiah 28:7-29; Isaiah 35:8; Proverbs 19:27; Luke 24:27; Luke 24:44-45; Romans 16:26; James 5:19; 2 Peter 1:19-20

Did you notice that Rosangela accused me of using EGW against herself? That is because she saw the obvious supposed contradiction. But there is no contradiction.

Originally Posted By: green
What does "stand toward" mean, APL? Does it not mean "take the attitude of" or "represent [Himself] as"? God is not desiring the execution of any sinner. But that He will execute is nonetheless plain.
God is NOT the executioner. Sin, which it is full grown brings forth death, James 1:15

Originally Posted By: green
It is clear that the law which requires one's death is the law of God, not the law of "sin." The origin of the death penalty is God's own character. Sin cannot exist in His presence. His presence is designed to be manifest everywhere throughout His realm--the Universe. It is only His mercy that has hidden His face from us to prevent us from an instant death. But He will not hide His face forever.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. In your reading of the 10 commandments, where is death talked about exactly?

No question, if God manifests Himself to us now, we would die. Is that execution or natural consequences of sin? "To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29." {DA 107.4} Now why is this so? There is good science behind this.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 08:09 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Did you notice that Rosangela accused me of using EGW against herself? That is because she saw the obvious supposed contradiction.

APL,

Did you notice I also accused you of using EGW against herself? That is because there was an actual contradiction. It is not a "supposed" one.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 08:18 AM

EJW: "This probationary life is given us for the purpose of giving us a chance to acknowledge Him as Father and to become sons indeed. But, unless we come back to Him, we shall die as slaves of sin."

Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {MH 113.1}

To say that God will and must be the one to end sin and sinners along with it, is to say that a governance under the principles of self-interest and self-exaltation is a valid alternative to existence and that if He did not employ force to end it "sin would never cease to exist."  The nature of sin has in it the inherent seed of death and it does not require the Creator's hand wielding a weapon of destruction to end it. Sin is entropic, de-evolutionary. Even without God laying a finger on anyone, this world is doomed to destruction all on its own. Look around you and do you see anything getting better? Are new species coming back into existence again? Is the water getting purer? The air? Are there less storms and earthquakes every year? Are we eradicating diseases? Are we learning to share and cooperate and stop warring with each other? You get the point. This is a dying planet. Left to its own, there would be no life left on the earth. {K. Straub}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 12:08 PM

APL,

It is interesting that in doing a search on the EGW CD, one discovers the following:

Search term: "God destroy*" (The two words must be together, but the latter will include destroy, destroys, and destroyed.)

God will destroy or has destroyed: 76 counts
God will not destroy: 7 counts
N/A (e.g. ...undermining your confidence in God, destroying ...): 3 counts

The actual total was 88 hits for this search term. Yes, my count came up short by two. I'm fairly certain they were not in the "God will not destroy" category, but even if they were, there are still nearly ten times as many quotes from the pen of Mrs. White saying that God WILL destroy as opposed to saying that He will NOT.

Just the facts.

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 03:58 PM

Did God destroy Jerusalem? Yes. HOW? Can you answer this simple question? The answer is CLEAR, in Great Controversy pages 35 and 36. I'll quote the last 2 sentences AGAIN for you:"The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty." {GC 36.1}

Now HOW did God destroy Jerusalem?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 04:08 PM

APL,

If a horse has blinders put on it, does it then see error, or does it still see truth, just less of it?

I would say you have blinders on. What you present is sometimes true. But it is not the full picture.

Jerusalem was destroyed by God using foreign powers who were able to do their work because God no longer protected her. This is one of the myriad ways in which God is able to accomplish His purposes.

Let's pick another city: Sodom. How did God destroy Sodom?

That answer is also clear, but you won't dare answer this one.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 04:24 PM

Originally Posted By: green
Let's pick another city: Sodom. How did God destroy Sodom?

That answer is also clear, but you won't dare answer this one.
It is written:
Hosea 11:5-9
5 He shall not return into the land of Egypt, and the Assyrian shall be his king, because they refused to return.
6 And the sword shall abide on his cities, and shall consume his branches, and devour them, because of their own counsels.
7 And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him.
8 How shall I give you up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver you, Israel? how shall I make you as Admah? how shall I set you as Zeboim? my heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.
9 I will not execute the fierceness of my anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the middle of you: and I will not enter into the city.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 04:36 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
Let's pick another city: Sodom. How did God destroy Sodom?

That answer is also clear, but you won't dare answer this one.
It is written:
Hosea 11:5-9
5 He shall not return into the land of Egypt, and the Assyrian shall be his king, because they refused to return.
6 And the sword shall abide on his cities, and shall consume his branches, and devour them, because of their own counsels.
7 And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him.
8 How shall I give you up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver you, Israel? how shall I make you as Admah? how shall I set you as Zeboim? my heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.
9 I will not execute the fierceness of my anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the middle of you: and I will not enter into the city.


Interesting. You have found another text to show how God destroyed Sodom, without even mentioning Sodom. Good job! Ephraim, however, was not to be destroyed in the same manner. Mrs. White writes the following about this:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." Here is language that expresses His mind toward a corrupt and idolatrous people: "How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? Mine heart is turned within Me, My repentings are kindled together." Must He give up the people for whom such a provision has been made, even His only-begotten Son, the express image of Himself? God permits His Son to be delivered up for our offenses. He Himself assumes toward the Sin Bearer the character of a judge, divesting Himself of the endearing qualities of a father. {TM 245.2}


In that quote we see that God assumes toward the Sin Bearer (shall we say "stands toward the Sin Bearer as") the character of a judge, instead of that of a kindly father.

Sodom was destroyed by God. Jesus was judged to take our punishment. God does not want to punish, but sometimes must.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 04:43 PM

Quote:
To say that God will and must be the one to end sin and sinners along with it, is to say that a governance under the principles of self-interest and self-exaltation is a valid alternative to existence and that if He did not employ force to end it "sin would never cease to exist." The nature of sin has in it the inherent seed of death and it does not require the Creator's hand wielding a weapon of destruction to end it. Sin is entropic, de-evolutionary. Even without God laying a finger on anyone, this world is doomed to destruction all on its own. Look around you and do you see anything getting better? Are new species coming back into existence again? Is the water getting purer? The air? Are there less storms and earthquakes every year? Are we eradicating diseases? Are we learning to share and cooperate and stop warring with each other? You get the point. This is a dying planet. Left to its own, there would be no life left on the earth. {K. Straub}

I do believe that if God didn't intervene, this world would be doomed to destruction. But this wouldn't happen if God had let the tree of life remain here. And this wouldn't happen with Satan and his angels. If God didn't cease to sustain their lives, they would be immortal sinners. It indeed would be a miserable existence, but an eternal one. If God ceased to sustain their lives, they would of course die, as I said, but so would the unfallen creatures. So sin per se doesn't kill.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 04:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
It is a fearful thing for the unrepenting sinner to fall into the hands of the living God. This is proved by the history of the destruction of the old world by a flood, by the record of the fire which fell from heaven and destroyed the inhabitants of Sodom. But never was this proved to so great an extent as in the agony of Christ, the Son of the infinite God, when he bore the wrath of God for a sinful world. It was in consequence of sin, the transgression of God's law, that the Garden of Gethsemane has become pre-eminently the place of suffering to a sinful world. No sorrow, no agony, can measure with that which was endured by the Son of God. {AG 168.3}

In every age, transgression of God's law has been followed by the same result. In the days of Noah, when every principle of rightdoing was violated, and iniquity became so deep and widespread that God could no longer bear with it, the decree went forth, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth." Genesis 6:7. In Abraham's day the people of Sodom openly defied God and His law; and there followed the same wickedness, the same corruption, the same unbridled indulgence, that had marked the antediluvian world. The inhabitants of Sodom passed the limits of divine forbearance, and there was kindled against them the fire of God's vengeance. {PK 297.2}


God destroyed Sodom on account of its great wickedness. God will also destroy the whole earth by fire in the end, both sin and sinners will be consumed. Mrs. White says Sodom was consumed by "the fire of God's vengeance." Jude tells us Sodom was an example of how all the wicked will one day be consumed.

Jesus suffered the wrath of God, under great "agony." Why should the wicked get let off the hook? The watching universe would be dissatisfied if they should not receive what they have earned. God will be just. Vengeance is His. This is why the wicked are raised to life at the end of the millennium to receive their reward.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 04:54 PM

It is God who holds in His hands the destiny of souls. He will not always be mocked; He will not always be trifled with. Already His judgments are in the land. Fierce and awful tempests leave destruction and death in their wake. The devouring fire lays low the desolate forest and the crowded city. Storm and shipwreck await those who journey upon the deep. Accident and calamity threaten all who travel upon the land. Hurricanes, earthquakes, sword and famine, follow in quick succession. Yet the hearts of men are hardened. They recognize not the warning voice of God. They will not flee to the only refuge from the gathering storm. --Ellen White.

God bless,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 06:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
It is God who holds in His hands the destiny of souls. He will not always be mocked; He will not always be trifled with. Already His judgments are in the land. Fierce and awful tempests leave destruction and death in their wake. The devouring fire lays low the desolate forest and the crowded city. Storm and shipwreck await those who journey upon the deep. Accident and calamity threaten all who travel upon the land. Hurricanes, earthquakes, sword and famine, follow in quick succession. Yet the hearts of men are hardened. They recognize not the warning voice of God. They will not flee to the only refuge from the gathering storm. --Ellen White.

God bless,

Green Cochoa.
GREEN - is it God that is causing storm and shipwreck? Famine and calamity? Are you saying God is causing all of these? REALLY????

Originally Posted By: EGW
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 06:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

You are not speaking truthfully.
How can you say that when you say things such as
"Punishment is not forced,"?

Quote:
Rosangela and myself have but given you statements from none other than Mrs. White and the Bible. How can you set yourself up against them?

But yet:
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Did you notice I also accused you of using EGW against herself? That is because there was an actual contradiction.

Why did you mention that you and Rosangela gave "statements from none other than Mrs. White and the Bible" when you admit APL used statements from White? That sounds like you are attempting to make APL look bad by implying something which isn't true.

Actual contradiction? Because APL used Mrs. White?
Hmmm....

Kind of reminds me of,
God is not the destroyer because He is the destroyer.

Who's accusing who of not being "truthful"?
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 06:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
So sin per se doesn't kill.
Seems we have been through this before regarding the tree of life and sin. Sin doesn't kill, but the lack of the tree of life kills?


So it's do as I say and I'll give you food, otherwise you can starve!
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 07:32 PM

Quote:
Seems we have been through this before regarding the tree of life and sin. Sin doesn't kill, but the lack of the tree of life kills?

The lack of the tree of life would kill, sin or no sin; but the access to the tree of life would prolong life for ever, sin or no sin. Immortality for human beings was conditional, and man lost it when he sinned. But immortality for angels wasn't conditional. So, if God doesn't cease to sustain the life of Satan and his angels, they will live, in sin, for ever. So how can you say that sin, per se, kills?

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 07:35 PM

Quote:
So it's do as I say and I'll give you food, otherwise you can starve!

Well, the condition of eternal life has always been, and will always be, perfect obedience. It's He who gives eternal life, and it's He who establishes the conditions.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/25/13 08:33 PM

Originally Posted By: EGW
The discord which his own course had caused in heaven, Satan charged upon the government of God. All evil he declared to be the result of the divine administration. He claimed that it was his own object to improve upon the statutes of Jehovah. Therefore God permitted him to demonstrate the nature of his claims, to show the working out of his proposed changes in the divine law. His own work must condemn him. Satan had claimed from the first that he was not in rebellion. The whole universe must see the deceiver unmasked. {PP 42.2}

Even when he was cast out of heaven, Infinite Wisdom did not destroy Satan. Since only the service of love can be acceptable to God, the allegiance of His creatures must rest upon a conviction of His justice and benevolence. The inhabitants of heaven and of the worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice of God in the destruction of Satan. Had he been immediately blotted out of existence, some would have served God from fear rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages, he must more fully develop his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, and that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of His law might be forever placed beyond all question. {PP 42.3}

Satan's rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages--a perpetual testimony to the nature of sin and its terrible results. The working out of Satan's rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God's government is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy beings, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin, and suffering its penalty. {PP 42.4}

He that ruleth in the heavens is the one who sees the end from the beginning--the one before whom the mysteries of the past and the future are alike outspread, and who, beyond the woe and darkness and ruin that sin has wrought, beholds the accomplishment of His own purposes of love and blessing. Though "clouds and darkness are round about Him: righteousness and judgment are the foundation of His throne." Psa_97:2, R.V. And this the inhabitants of the universe, both loyal and disloyal, will one day understand. "His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He." Deu_32:4. {PP 43.1}


Only a service of love can be accepted by God. If you don't love Him, will He then kill you?

The nature and consequences of sin. Sin causes all strife, sickness and death. Unfallen beings can live in God's unquencable fire. Sinful beings can't

Serve God from fear... Is this not what Green is saying? God will destroy sinners, so learn and don't sin!

A testimony to the NATURE of sin and ITS terrible results. Is it sin or is it God that causes the destruction?

This terrible experiment will be a perpetural safeguard, because we will know the nature of transgression and what the results are. So be afraid of God because He will kill you if you do not comply. Or is it sin will destroy the sinner? Which is it?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/26/13 12:07 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Is it sin or is it God that causes the destruction?


You ask the wrong question. There should be no either/or here. It is a both/and situation instead.

For example, if you murder your neighbor's twin daughters in cold blood, and you live in Texas where they have the death penalty, the judge and jury may send you to capital punishment. Let's say it is by electric chair, and you refuse the governor's pardon, so you go to your death.

What killed you?

  • Your murder of the twins, OR
  • The Texas law, OR
  • Your refusal of the governor's pardon, OR
  • The judge, OR
  • The jury, OR
  • The executioner, OR
  • The chair, OR
  • The electricity, OR
  • ?????


Which ONE SINGLE THING among those caused your death, APL, given this scenario? Your "sin?"

Now, did the judge force you to murder the twins? Obviously not. Did your refusal of the governor's pardon cause your death? In a way, yes. But did the chair have something to do with it? Of course. The executioner? Naturally.

Was the law "arbitrary" (e.g. unfair, designed only to catch you and not anyone else, or some other such capriciousness)? No. The law was there before you broke it, as was its penalty. You broke it, you get what you knew would happen.

Adam and Eve had both been duly told what would happen to them. It did. The law was just, not arbitrary. And the punishment, therefore, is also just, and not arbitrary.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/26/13 06:23 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

You are not speaking truthfully.
How can you say that when you say things such as
"Punishment is not forced,"?

Quote:
Rosangela and myself have but given you statements from none other than Mrs. White and the Bible. How can you set yourself up against them?

But yet:
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Did you notice I also accused you of using EGW against herself? That is because there was an actual contradiction.

Why did you mention that you and Rosangela gave "statements from none other than Mrs. White and the Bible" when you admit APL used statements from White? That sounds like you are attempting to make APL look bad by implying something which isn't true.

Actual contradiction? Because APL used Mrs. White?
Hmmm....

Kind of reminds me of,
God is not the destroyer because He is the destroyer.

Who's accusing who of not being "truthful"?

I just noticed this post of yours, kland. When I used the phrase "none other than" it had nothing to do with what quotes APL may have brought to the discussion. It would be like saying, "I got my information from none other than the president himself!" It is a way of emphasizing the value of the source. It would not mean that someone else had gotten bad information--it has little to do with anyone else at all, it would simply serve to build the credibility of one's own source. For example, click here to see a definition by Cambridge Dictionary for this idiom.

I apologize for not using a more easily-understood level of English. I certainly did not intend to criticize APL's quotes of Ellen White.

The trouble was that APL was using Mrs. White to support an idea of his that was handily contradicted by other statements from Mrs. White. This is why both Rosangela and I commented to APL about the contradiction between Ellen White and Ellen White that he appeared to be trying to set up.

No, I do not believe she contradicts herself. APL, however, will likely not soon accept some of her statements. He will need to be selective about which ones he reads if he wishes to maintain his present view.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/26/13 06:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
When I used the phrase "none other than" it had nothing to do with what quotes APL may have brought to the discussion. It would be like saying, "I got my information from none other than the president himself!" It is a way of emphasizing the value of the source. It would not mean that someone else had gotten bad information--it has little to do with anyone else at all, it would simply serve to build the credibility of one's own source.
But didn't APL get his information from "none other than" Ellen White? You haven't helped your situation any.

Quote:
The trouble was that APL was using Mrs. White to support an idea of his that was handily contradicted by other statements from Mrs. White.
But the trouble was that you were using Mrs. White to support an idea of yours that was handily contradicted by other statements from Mrs. White.

How come you however, will likely not soon accept some of her statements. Most likely you will need to be selective about which ones you read if you wish to maintain your present view.

Blessings,
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/26/13 06:44 PM

Perhaps you can pick one of the alleged statements he is using, just one, the best one, that you think is so contradictory, or that you think he is making so contradictory and let's discuss it.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/27/13 06:27 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
But didn't APL get his information from "none other than" Ellen White? You haven't helped your situation any.

This is not fully correct. Some of APL's statements have come from Mrs. White. He has chosen to quote some others in almost the same manner as Ellen White quotes to blend them into this discussion almost as if they had the same authority. For example, Ellen White quotes frequently have the curly braces around the reference. APL put those curly braces around "K. Straub" when quoting him. He has also quoted E. J. Waggoner using the three letters "EJW" which might seem almost the same as "EGW." You have to look carefully to catch the difference.

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
The trouble was that APL was using Mrs. White to support an idea of his that was handily contradicted by other statements from Mrs. White.
But the trouble was that you were using Mrs. White to support an idea of yours that was handily contradicted by other statements from Mrs. White.


This is also not correct. I see no contradiction in Mrs. White's writings. I accept both A and B. APL only accepts A. He does not accept the balance of the statements, so to his point of view there is a contradiction. From my vantage point, no contradiction in her writings exists on this point.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/27/13 06:39 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Perhaps you can pick one of the alleged statements he is using, just one, the best one, that you think is so contradictory, or that you think he is making so contradictory and let's discuss it.

I did this already. APL did not respond. Perhaps you will? APL is actually the one who presented the two opposing quotes in his post. I will copy it here from the other thread where it originally was posted.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: EGW
Of all the sins that God will punish, none are more grievous in His sight than those that encourage others to do evil. ... {PP 323.3}
By beholding, we become changed. If we think that God will actively torture sinners, then we will do the same.
Originally Posted By: EGW
It is a law both of the intellectual and the spiritual nature, that by beholding, we become changed. The mind gradually adapts itself to the subjects upon which it is allowed to dwell. It becomes assimilated to that which it is accustomed to love and reverence. Man will never rise higher than his standard of purity or goodness or truth. {GC88 555.2}

Ellen White spoke of God punishing in that first quote. You appear to use another quote of hers to counter her first quote. Using Ellen White against Ellen White?

A house divided against itself cannot stand.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/27/13 12:57 PM

Ellen White gives a good description of how you interpret her writings, Green:

Quote:
Where, in the pages of God’s word, is such teaching to be found? Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage? No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God. Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator. “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?” Ezekiel 33:11. {GC 535.2}


She speaks of a peculiar way of misconstruing "strong expressions of Scripture." Ellen White indicates such interpretation might well exposes the "bitterness and malignity which pertains to" oneself.

Is Ellen White stating a truth?
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/28/13 04:05 PM

I think you said it, Johann. And evidence so pertains not just to this topic.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/28/13 04:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
But didn't APL get his information from "none other than" Ellen White? You haven't helped your situation any.

This is not fully correct. Some of APL's statements have come from Mrs. White.
So the issue is not that he got his information from "none other than" Ellen White, but also from some other sources?

Ummmm.... You haven't helped your situation any.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
The trouble was that APL was using Mrs. White to support an idea of his that was handily contradicted by other statements from Mrs. White.
But the trouble was that you were using Mrs. White to support an idea of yours that was handily contradicted by other statements from Mrs. White.


This is also not correct. I see no contradiction in Mrs. White's writings.
This is strange. You just said it did contradict. Now you say it doesn't. "that was handily contradicted"

But maybe you are saying when APL uses Ellen White, it contradicts, but when you use similar statements, it doesn't contradict because....you say so.


Blessings,
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/28/13 04:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: EGW
Of all the sins that God will punish, none are more grievous in His sight than those that encourage others to do evil. ... {PP 323.3}
By beholding, we become changed. If we think that God will actively torture sinners, then we will do the same.
Originally Posted By: EGW
It is a law both of the intellectual and the spiritual nature, that by beholding, we become changed. The mind gradually adapts itself to the subjects upon which it is allowed to dwell. It becomes assimilated to that which it is accustomed to love and reverence. Man will never rise higher than his standard of purity or goodness or truth. {GC88 555.2}

Ellen White spoke of God punishing in that first quote. You appear to use another quote of hers to counter her first quote. Using Ellen White against Ellen White?

A house divided against itself cannot stand.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I think the question is, how does God "punish", what is "punish" in terms of God? You make it contradictory by using your terms of punish.

And frankly, I expected a statement that sounded contradictory. It puzzles me of why you picked this one as being contradictory. It doesn't fit in with what you've been complaining about.

God considers it a great sin to encourage others to do evil.

The mind adapts itself to that on which it dwells.

How is that contradictory? Why would you consider it so? If the mind dwells on evil, it becomes evil, it encourages others to do evil. If we think God does evil, we will to. If we cause others to think God does evil, they by beholding will become changed and do evil.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/28/13 04:37 PM

Given a third party who doesn't know about God nor Hitler, how could you describe what God does and what Hitler does and they would be able to recognize him if they came across Him?

This is leading to: In the last days satan will personate God. He will cause those who disagree with him to be killed. Why will so many be deceived?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/28/13 06:00 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Given a third party who doesn't know about God nor Hitler, how could you describe what God does and what Hitler does and they would be able to recognize him if they came across Him?

This is leading to: In the last days satan will personate God. He will cause those who disagree with him to be killed. Why will so many be deceived?

They will never be deceived if they know their Bibles. They will be deceived because they do not.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
As the crowning act in the great drama of deception, Satan himself will personate Christ. The church has long professed to look to the Saviour's advent as the consummation of her hopes. Now the great deceiver will make it appear that Christ has come. In different parts of the earth, Satan will manifest himself among men as a majestic being of dazzling brightness, resembling the description of the Son of God given by John in the Revelation. Revelation 1:13-15. The glory that surrounds him is unsurpassed by anything that mortal eyes have yet beheld. The shout of triumph rings out upon the air: "Christ has come! Christ has come!" The people prostrate themselves in adoration before him, while he lifts up his hands and pronounces a blessing upon them, as Christ blessed His disciples when He was upon the earth. His voice is soft and subdued, yet full of melody. In gentle, compassionate tones he presents some of the same gracious, heavenly truths which the Saviour uttered; he heals the diseases of the people, and then, in his assumed character of Christ, he claims to have changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and commands all to hallow the day which he has blessed. He declares that those who persist in keeping holy the seventh day are blaspheming his name by refusing to listen to his angels sent to them with light and truth. This is the strong, almost overmastering delusion. Like the Samaritans who to the greatest, give heed to these sorceries, saying: This is "the great power of God." Acts 8:10. {GC 624.2}
But the people of God will not be misled. The teachings of this false christ are not in accordance with the Scriptures. His blessing is pronounced upon the worshipers of the beast and his image, the very class upon whom the Bible declares that God's unmingled wrath shall be poured out. {GC 625.1}


No Sunday-keeping Jesus will confuse me.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/28/13 06:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Johann
Ellen White gives a good description of how you interpret her writings, Green:

Quote:
Where, in the pages of God’s word, is such teaching to be found? Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage? No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God. Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator. “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?” Ezekiel 33:11. {GC 535.2}


She speaks of a peculiar way of misconstruing "strong expressions of Scripture." Ellen White indicates such interpretation might well exposes the "bitterness and malignity which pertains to" oneself.

Is Ellen White stating a truth?

Johann,

You are deliberately misusing Mrs. White's writings. You should be ashamed of yourself, and no pastor should think such was a proper argument. You show yourself ready to use the art of deception, if only to further your cause. Well, I will unmask it.

The paragraph just before the one Johann has quoted says this:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live. Yet this doctrine has been widely taught and is still embodied in many of the creeds of Christendom. Said a learned doctor of divinity: "The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. When they see others who are of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, it will make them sensible of how happy they are." Another used these words: "While the decree of reprobation is eternally executing on the vessels of wrath, the smoke of their torment will be eternally ascending in view of the vessels of mercy, who, instead of taking the part of these miserable objects, will say, Amen, Alleluia! praise ye the Lord!" {GC 535.1}


Mrs. White is speaking in scathing terms of those who would picture God as cruelly torturing people forever.

No one here, not Rosangela, not Daryl, not Arnold, and least of all myself, is advocating such a tyrannical view of God.

And you know it, Johann!

I think an apology would be in order.

Ellen White is stating truth. There are those who misconstrue the Scriptures to support their own careless opinions and views. But the view that God will bring every work into judgment, and will reward each one according to his or her works, is not a misconstruction. It is a truth. It is a significant part of the Third Angel's Message.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/28/13 06:18 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
How is that contradictory? Why would you consider it so? If the mind dwells on evil, it becomes evil, it encourages others to do evil. If we think God does evil, we will to. If we cause others to think God does evil, they by beholding will become changed and do evil.


If we think "judgment" or "punishment" is evil, then we cannot accept that God would do it. It all comes back to definitions.

You think that dwelling on this is evil, but the Bible says: "The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment."

The Bible does not teach that justice, judgment and punishment are evil. The Bible does not even teach that anger is evil. "Be ye angry and sin not." We can have a form of anger that is righteous. Jesus can be angry. God can be angry.

But if you say that "anger is evil," you then form a contradiction with the Bible or with the very character or nature of God. This is what many are now doing in relationship to this thread's topic.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/29/13 05:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Johann
Ellen White gives a good description of how you interpret her writings, Green:

Quote:
Where, in the pages of God’s word, is such teaching to be found? Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage? No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God. Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator. “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?” Ezekiel 33:11. {GC 535.2}


She speaks of a peculiar way of misconstruing "strong expressions of Scripture." Ellen White indicates such interpretation might well exposes the "bitterness and malignity which pertains to" oneself.

Is Ellen White stating a truth?

Johann,

You are deliberately misusing Mrs. White's writings.
Absolutely not. This passage points out the sin of a wrong presentation of Scripture, and that is what you are doing.
Quote:
You should be ashamed of yourself, and no pastor should think such was a proper argument. You show yourself ready to use the art of deception, if only to further your cause. Well, I will unmask it.
There is no reason to be ashamed, for 2 Timothy 2:15
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Quote:


The paragraph just before the one Johann has quoted says this:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live. Yet this doctrine has been widely taught and is still embodied in many of the creeds of Christendom. Said a learned doctor of divinity: "The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. When they see others who are of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, it will make them sensible of how happy they are." Another used these words: "While the decree of reprobation is eternally executing on the vessels of wrath, the smoke of their torment will be eternally ascending in view of the vessels of mercy, who, instead of taking the part of these miserable objects, will say, Amen, Alleluia! praise ye the Lord!" {GC 535.1}


Mrs. White is speaking in scathing terms of those who would picture God as cruelly torturing people forever.
You are quoting the passage before. You should study the pages after this passage which we read for our devotional that morning. They show that this also deals with the way you look at God. Therefore it also applies to those who picture God as "cruelly torturing people" also for shorter periods.
Quote:


No one here, not Rosangela, not Daryl, not Arnold, and least of all myself, is advocating such a tyrannical view of God.
To me that seems to be just what you are doing, even if you wrongfully deny your sins. It has earlier been pointed out to you by someone else that yours is a "pagan" interpretation. Since you totally ignored that warning it had to be repeated.
Quote:


And you know it, Johann!

I think an apology would be in order.
Where have you been taught to apologize because you let Scripture point out the sins of people? Is that what you are doing to the people you get paid for preaching repentance?

Quote:
Ellen White is stating truth. There are those who misconstrue the Scriptures to support their own careless opinions and views. But the view that God will bring every work into judgment, and will reward each one according to his or her works, is not a misconstruction. It is a truth. It is a significant part of the Third Angel's Message.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Many Seventh-day Adventists regard this interpretation of Scripture as a misconstruction which brings a false picture of God to the world. You owe it to yourself to get well acquainted with this before you judge others, because this was the teaching of our pioneers. New theories were brought to us by modern scholars that have confused the views of many, unfortunately.

Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/29/13 06:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Johann
Therefore it also applies to those who picture God as "cruelly torturing people" also for shorter periods.


Can you please show your diligence to scripture and back up this statement with inspired quotes?

Originally Posted By: Johann
Many Seventh-day Adventists regard this interpretation of Scripture as a misconstruction which brings a false picture of God to the world. You owe it to yourself to get well acquainted with this before you judge others, because this was the teaching of our pioneers. New theories were brought to us by modern scholars that have confused the views of many, unfortunately.


You pay much attention to extra-biblical sources. Our pioneers are one of those. They did not have everything right. Neither did Martin Luther. They had much truth, yes. But we are not counseled to follow them implicitly. In other words, just because our pioneers believed something doesn't make it so.

In my case, I'm supporting my views from the Bible. You choose the pioneers. Up to you.

Let me show you what the Bible says, and then you can tell me why you don't believe it.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil. (Ecclesiastes 12:14)

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12)

Revelation
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Furthermore, Jesus Himself spoke of God burning people in hell. (See Matthew 18.)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/29/13 07:59 AM

Originally Posted By: green
You pay much attention to extra-biblical sources. Our pioneers are one of those. They did not have everything right. Neither did Martin Luther. They had much truth, yes. But we are not counseled to follow them implicitly. In other words, just because our pioneers believed something doesn't make it so.

In my case, I'm supporting my views from the Bible. You choose the pioneers. Up to you.
Do you include EGW in your list of pioneers?

God has given me light regarding our periodicals. What is it?--He has said that the dead are to speak. How?--Their works shall follow them. We are to repeat the words of the pioneers in our work, who knew what it cost to search for the truth as for hidden treasure, and who labored to lay the foundation of our work. They moved forward step by step under the influence of the Spirit of God. One by one these pioneers are passing away. The word given me is, Let that which these men have written in the past be reproduced. {RH, May 25, 1905 par. 21}

The record of the experience through which the people of God passed in the early history of our work must be republished. Many of those who have since come into the truth are ignorant of the way in which the Lord wrought. The experience of William Miller and his associates, of Captain Joseph Bates, and of other pioneers in the Advent message, should be kept before our people. Elder Loughborough's book should receive attention. Our leading men should see what can be done for the circulation of this book. {17MR 344.4}

It was the spirit of Satan expressed in looks and words to make of none effect the Testimonies of the Spirit of God. "This," said the guide with me, "is the way any message of Heaven will be treated." God and angels are at work to open before the people their wrongs which have brought the frown of God upon the people. Men professing to be teachers, step in between them and the light God has given, that it shall have no weight or effect upon the hearts of the people. God calls them to repentance, while unconsecrated, unconverted men, as bodies of darkness, call their attention from the necessity of repentance to self-justification. These cunning speeches serve the purpose of Satan. Self-inflated, self-deceived souls are deceiving others. {PH155 9.2}

When men come in who would move one pin or pillar from the foundation which God has established by His Holy Spirit, let the aged men who were pioneers in our work speak plainly, and let those who are dead speak also by the reprinting of their articles in our periodicals. {MR760 10.5}

We are to repeat the words of the pioneers in our work, who knew what it cost to search for the truth as for hidden treasure, and who labored to lay the foundation of our work. {RH, May 25, 1905 par. 21}

The very same Satan is at work to undermine the faith of the people of God at this time. There are persons ready to catch up every new idea. The prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation are misinterpreted. These persons do not consider that the truth has been set forth at the appointed time by the very men whom God was leading to do this special work. These men followed on step by step in the very fulfillment of prophecy, and those who have not had a personal experience in this work, are to take the Word of God and believe on "their word" who have been led by the Lord in the proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages. ... {2SM 111.2}

It is true that there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled. But very erroneous work has been done again and again, and will continue to be done by those who seek to find new light in the prophecies, and who begin by turning away from the light that God has already given. {2SM 111.3}


When the power of God testifies to what is truth, the truth is to stand forever as the truth. No after suppositions, contrary to the light God has given are to be entertained. Men will arise with interpretations of Scripture which are to them truth, but which are not truth. The truth for this time, God has given us as a foundation for our faith. He Himself has taught us what is truth. One will arise and still another with new light which contradicts the light that God has given under the demonstration of His Holy Spirit. A few are still alive who passed through the experience gained in the establishment of this truth. God has graciously spared their lives to repeat and repeat till the close of their lives, the experience through which they passed even as did John the apostle till the very close of his life. And the standard bearers who have fallen in death, are to speak through the reprinting of their writings. I am instructed that thus [their] voices are to be heard. They are to bear their testimony as to what constitutes the truth for this time. We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's Word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar of the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God. {PH020 14.2}

In the future, deception of every kind is to arise, and we want solid ground for our feet. We want solid pillars for the building. Not one pin is to be removed from that which the Lord has established. The enemy will bring in false theories, such as the doctrine that there is no sanctuary. This is one of the points on which there will be a departing from the faith. Where shall we find safety unless it be in the truths that the Lord has been giving for the last fifty years? {RH, May 25, 1905 par. 28}

The past fifty years have not dimmed one jot or principle of our faith as we received the great and wonderful evidences that were made certain to us in 1844, after the passing of the time. The languishing souls are to be confirmed and quickened according to his word. And many of the ministers of the gospel and the Lord's physicians will have their languishing souls quickened according to the word. Not a word is changed or denied. That which the Holy Spirit testified to as truth after the passing of the time, in our great disappointment, is the solid foundation of truth. Pillars of truth were revealed, and we accepted the foundation principles that have made us what we are--Seventh-day Adventists, keeping the commandments of God and having the faith of Jesus. {NYI, February 7, 1906 par. 4}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/29/13 08:51 AM

APL,

Of course Mrs. White was one of our pioneers, but when I refer to the pioneers, I do not speak to her specifically, for she was much more than a pioneer, being a prophetess. I would call her writings the Word of God, and they are inspired by the same Spirit which inspired the Bible.

If you wish to follow the writings of the pioneers, I hope you recognize the truth spoken by John Nevins Andrews.

Originally Posted By: J.N. Andrews
The third text states, in the most explicit manner, "that the saints shall judge the world." As it occurs in the same epistle which forbids this judgment "before the time until the Lord come," it is manifest that this is a work which the saints enter upon immediately after they have been exalted to reign with Christ. The nature of the judgment which the saints are to decide is clearly determined by two facts: 1. It is rendered by the saints after the Lord has brought to light the hidden works of darkness, and made manifest the counsels of the hearts. 2. It is said in this same passage, and in the same manner, that the saints "shall judge angels," meaning of course those angels that have sinned whose cases are thus stated:- {1890 JNA, JEO 121.1}
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment. 2Peter2:4. {1890 JNA, JEO 121.2}
"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Jude 6. {1890 JNA, JEO 121.3}
These two facts are decisive as to the nature of the judgment which the saints are to engage in when exalted at Christ's right hand. They are not to be judges over men in a state of probation, something as the ancient judges of Israel were raised up to rule over God's ancient people, but their judgment is to be rendered in the case of wicked men, when the Lord brings "to light the hidden things of darkness," and it is to be exercised alike in the case of sinful men and fallen angels. It is not a judgment to determine the guilt or innocence of the parties to be
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judged; for the guilt of the angels was virtually pronounced to be unpardonable when they were cast out of heaven, and delivered to chains of darkness, i.e. to utter despair, and to the hopeless bondage of their own sins. And the last condition of wicked men has, before their judgment by the saints, already been determined by the resurrection and translation of the just, leaving all others as unworthy of eternal life. This judgment of the saints is, therefore, simply designed to determine the measure of the guilt of wicked men and fallen angels. As their rejection from the kingdom of God is determined by God the Father before they are thus judged by the saints, this judgment by them for the determination of the measure of each man's guilt, is a most convincing proof that God designs, in rendering to every man according to his deeds, to inflict tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that doeth evil. Rom.2:5-9. {1890 JNA, JEO 121.4}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/29/13 09:03 AM

So Green, why do you then reject what EGW has said about God how executes the sentence against transgression?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/29/13 09:06 AM

Originally Posted By: JNA
This fearful execution of God's judgment is witnessed before the deliverance of the saints; for not less than six of the plagues are poured out prior to the advent of Christ. Rev.16:12-15. {1890 JNA, JEO 90.1}
Does God directly cause the last plagues?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/29/13 09:08 AM

Andrews knew the truth.
Quote:
When God sends men strong delusion to believe a lie that they all might be damned, it must be after the righteous have accomplished their work of overcoming, and after the Saviour has ceased to plead. The only way that God sends this strong delusion is by withdrawing his spirit when men have sinned away the day of grace, thus leaving them a prey to the unrestrained power of the devil. {1890 JNA, JEO 92.1}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/29/13 01:32 PM

Here's an article by Andrews that answers Johann's claim about the teachings of those who promote the concept of an eternally-burning hell.

Originally Posted By: J. N. Andrews

The Rich Man and Lazarus

i Information about this Pamphlet


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By J. N. Andrews




ARE the wicked dead now being punished? This is a question of awful solemnity, and should not be treated as a matter of speculation and idle curiosity. For the greater part of mankind live in neglect of the great duties of religion, if not in open contempt of its most solemn commands. Such has ever been the fact with our fallen race. This vast throng of sinful men for long ages have been pouring through the gates of death, and its dark portals hide them from our further view. What is the condition of this innumerable multitude of impenitent dead? Where are they? and what now is their real state? {ND JNA, RMLA 1.1}

To this question two answers are returned: 1. They are now suffering the torments of the damned. This is the answer of the so-called orthodox creeds. 2. They are now sleeping in the dust of the earth, awaiting the resurrection to damnation. This answer is believed by many candid Bible students to be the harmonious teaching of the Scriptures on this subject. Which of these two answers is the true and proper one? {ND JNA, RMLA 1.2}

1. There is no statement in the Bible relating to the wicked dead in general, where they are in any way represented as in a state or place of torment. Nor is there any instance in the Bible where men are threatened that they shall, if wicked, enter an abode of misery at death. Even the warning of Jesus, in Matt. 10:28, which is thought to contain the strongest proof of the soul's immortality that can be found in all the Bible, says not one word concerning the suffering of the soul in hades, the place of the dead, but relates wholly to what shall be inflicted upon "both soul and body in gehenna" (the Greek word here rendered hell), the place of punishment for the resurrected wicked. {ND JNA, RMLA 1.3}

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2. There being no general statement in the Bible representing the wicked dead as now in torment, and no instance in which the living wicked are threatened with consignment to the furnace of fire till after the Judgment, we now search out the particular cases which may be thought to teach such a fact. There are just two of these cases which may be cited to prove that some of the wicked dead are now in torment; and from these, if at all, the torment of the wicked dead in general must be deduced. These cases are the Sodomites; "set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire;" Jude 7; and the rich man lifting up his eyes in torment; Luke 16:19-31. These are the only cases that can be cited from the Scriptures in proof that the wicked dead are now undergoing the punishment of their sins. {ND JNA, RMLA 2.1}

3. The case of the Sodomites first claims our attention. The text reads thus: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7. The present tense is used throughout the verse. It occurs twice in speaking of the sin of Sodom, and twice with reference to its punishment. This text does not teach that the men of Sodom are now engaged in the sinful acts referred to; why should it be understood to teach that they are now receiving their retribution? Does the apostle mean to say that the Sodomites are now in the flames of eternal fire? The clause, "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire," is modified by the words, "set forth for an example," which immediately precede it. In fact, the real meaning of the apostle in what he says of the sufferings of the Sodomites can only be determined by giving this phrase, "set forth for an example," its proper bearing. To be "set for an example," to wicked men, "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire," one of two things must be true: 1. They must now be in a state of suffering in plain view of the inhabitants of the earth; or,

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2. They must be somewhere in the Scriptures set forth in the very act of suffering the vengeance of fire from heaven. If the first of these views be correct, then the Sodomites are indeed now in torment. But that view is not correct; for the very place where Sodom was burned is now covered by the Dead Sea. {ND JNA, RMLA 2.2}

That the second view is correct, is manifest from Gen. 19:24-28: "Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; and he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. But his [Lot's] wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. And Abraham got up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord. And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace." {ND JNA, RMLA 3.1}

Here the Sodomites are set forth for an example in the very act of suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Are they to this day in that fire? Peter bears testimony, and it is the more valuable in this case because the chapter containing it is almost an exact parallel to the epistle of Jude. Thus he says: "Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah INTO ASHES condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Pet. 2:6. Peter thus shows that the fire did its proper office upon the men of Sodom, and that they were not in his day alive in its flames. Their case is an example of what God will do to all the wicked after the resurrection to damnation, when fire shall descend out of heaven upon them, and the whole earth become a lake of fire. Rev. 20; 2 Pet. 3; Mal. 4. {ND JNA, RMLA 3.2}

The testimony of Jeremiah, which represents the punishment of Sodom as comparatively brief, must complete this evidence: "For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown

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as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her." Lam. 4:6. {ND JNA, RMLA 3.3}

4. The language of Jude concerning the Sodomites has, therefore, no relation to their condition in death, and cannot be made to furnish evidence that the wicked dead are now in a state of torment. There remains, therefore, the case of a single individual - the rich man - out of which to deduce the doctrine that the wicked dead are now in the lake of fire. This is certainly a fact worthy of note. {ND JNA, RMLA 4.1}

5. The account of the rich man stands at the conclusion of a discourse made up of parables. Thus Luke 15 presents us with the parable of the lost sheep, the ten pieces of silver, and the prodigal son. The sixteenth chapter is made up of two parables; the unjust steward and the rich man and Lazarus. It is true that the account of the rich man and Lazarus is not called a parable by the sacred penman; but the fact is the same with respect to the two cases which precede this; and the three are introduced in the same manner: "A certain man had two sons;" "There was a certain rich man which had a steward;" "There was a certain rich man which was clothed in purple and fine linen." {ND JNA, RMLA 4.2}

6. It is generally admitted that a parable cannot be made the foundation of any doctrine, or be used to disprove doctrines established by plain and literal testimony. But the doctrine of the present punishment of the wicked dead rests upon a single parable, and that parable the case of a single individual. {ND JNA, RMLA 4.3}

7. The proper interpretation of any portion of the Sacred Record will show that it is in divine harmony with the general tenor and plain facts of the whole book. {ND JNA, RMLA 4.4}

8. Three of the dead are here introduced - Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man - and all are represented as in hades. "In hell [Greek, hades] he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." Luke 16:23. Hades is the place of all the dead, the righteous as well as the wicked.

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Thus, at the resurrection of the just, they shout victory over death and hades, from whose power they are then delivered. "O Death, where is thy sting? O Grave [Greek, hades], where is thy victory?" 1 Cor. 15:55. The wicked dead are in hades; for at the resurrection to damnation, hades delivers them up. Rev. 20:13. The resurrection of Christ did not leave his soul in hades; i.e., he then came forth from the place of the dead. Hades, therefore, is the common receptacle of the dead. Those who are in hades are not alive, but dead. "DEATH and HADES delivered up the DEAD which were in them." Rev. 20:13. Even the language of Abraham implies that all the party were then dead. To Dives, he says, "Thou in thy lifetime [now passed] receivedst thy good things; but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented." Classing himself with dead Lazarus, he adds: "Between US and you there is a great gulf fixed." The rich man then begs that Lazarus may be sent to his brethren, declaring that if one went unto them from the dead , they would repent. And Abraham, denying his request, said that they would not be persuaded, though one rose from the dead ." This scene transpires in hades, the place of the dead; and those who act in it are three dead persons. {ND JNA, RMLA 4.5}

9. A clue to the proper interpretation of this parable is found in verses 29 and 31: "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. . . . If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." This language directs the living to Moses and the prophets for instruction concerning man's condition in hades. In their testimony will be found adequate warning to the living wicked, and facts of great importance bearing upon the proper interpretation of this peculiar passage. {ND JNA, RMLA 5.1}

10. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, and the New Testament in Greek. Here an important fact is to be noticed: The Old Testament uses the word sheol to designate the place which in the New Testament

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is called hades. Thus the sixteenth Psalm, written in Hebrew, says, "Thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol." Verse 10. The New Testament, quoting this text, and expressing the words in Greek, says, "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hades." Acts 2:27. The Hebrew term sheol, as used in the Old Testament, is, therefore, the same in meaning with the Greek word hades as used in the New. In other words, the hades of Christ and the apostles is the sheol of Moses and the prophets. {ND JNA, RMLA 5.2}

11. It is well here to observe that the Hebrew word sheol is used in the Old Testament sixty-five times. It is rendered grave thirty-one times. Gen. 37:35; 42:38; 44:29, 31; 1 Sam. 2:6; 1 Kings 2:6, 9; Job 7:9; 14:13; 17:13; 21:13; 24:19; Ps. 6:5; 30:3; 31:17; 49:14, 15; 88:3; 89:48; 141:7; Prov. 1:12; 30:16; Eccl.9:10; Cant. 8:6; Isa. 14:11; 38:10, 18; Eze. 31:15; Hosea 13:14. It is rendered pit three times, as follows: Num. 16:30, 33; Job 17:16. It is also rendered hell in thirty-one instances, as follows: Deut. 32:22; 2 Sam. 22:6; Job 11:8; 26:6; Ps. 9:17; 16:10; 18:5; 55:15; 86:13; 116:3; 139:8; Prov. 5:5; 7:27; 9:18; 15:11, 24; 23:14; 27:20; Isa. 5:14; 14:9, 15; 28:15, 18; 57:9; Eze. 31:16, 17; 32:21, 27; Amos 9:2; Jonah 2:2; Hab. 2:5. {ND JNA, RMLA 6.1}

Hades, the New-Testament term for the sheol of the Old Testament, is used eleven times, and in ten of these it is rendered hell: Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14. It is once rendered grave: 1 Cor. 15:55. {ND JNA, RMLA 6.2}

12. Moses and the prophets were indeed divinely inspired on every point concerning which they wrote; but on the point respecting which we seek light, they have the special endorsement of our Lord. We may therefore confide in their teachings concerning hades, or sheol, assured that the great facts revealed through them by the Spirit of God, will be found in divine harmony with the teachings of Christ and the apostles. {ND JNA, RMLA 6.3}

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13. The texts quoted above, relating to hades, or sheol, reveal to us many important facts. We learn that sheol is the common receptacle of the dead, whether they are righteous or wicked. Thus Jacob expressed his faith in what should be his state in death when he said, "I will go down into sheol unto my son mourning." Gen. 37:35; 42:38; 44:29, 31. Korah and his company went down into sheol. ii* Num. 16:30, 33. Joab went down into sheol. 1 Kings 2:6, 9. Job was to be hid in sheol, and wait there till the resurrection. Job 14:13; 17:13. All the wicked go into sheol. Ps. 9:17; 31:17; 49:14. All mankind go there. Ps. 89:48; Eccl. 9:10. {ND JNA, RMLA 7.1}

14. Sheol, or hades, receives the whole man at death. Jacob expected to go down with his gray hairs to sheol. Gen. 42:38. Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, went into sheol bodily. Num. 16:30, 33. The soul of the Saviour left sheol at his resurrection. Ps. 16:10; Acts 2:27, 31. The psalmist, being restored from dangerous sickness, testified that his soul was saved from going into sheol. Thus he says, "O Lord, my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave [Hebrew, sheol]: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down into the pit." Ps. 30:2, 3; see also 86:13; Prov. 23:14. He also shows that all men must die, and that no man can deliver his soul from sheol. Ps. 89:48. {ND JNA, RMLA 7.2}

15. The sorrows of hell, three times mentioned by the psalmist, are, as shown by the connection, the pangs which precede or lead to death. 2 Sam. 22:5-7; Ps. 18:4-6; 116:1-9. They are, in each case, experienced by the righteous. The cruelty of sheol is there morseless

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power with which it swallows up all mankind. Cant. 8:6; Ps. 89:48. {ND JNA, RMLA 7.3}

16. Those who go down to sheol must remain there till their resurrection. At the coming of Christ all the righteous are delivered from sheol. All the living wicked men are then "turned into sheol," and for one thousand years sheol holds all wicked men in its dread embrace. Then death and sheol, or hades, deliver up the wicked dead, and the judgment is executed upon them in the lake of fire. Compare Job 7:9, 10; 14:12-14; 17:13; 19:25-27; Rev. 20:4-6; 1 Cor. 15:51-55; Ps. 9:17; Rev. 20:11-15. {ND JNA, RMLA 8.1}

17. Sheol, the invisible place or state of the dead, is IN THE EARTH BENEATH. Though it is rendered grave thirty-one times, it is not the word usually so rendered in the Old Testament; for it embraces the interior of the earth as the region of the dead and the place of every grave. Eze. 32:18-32. All the passages which speak of the location of sheol, or hades, represent it as beneath . It is always in the interior of the earth; sometimes it is in the nether parts of the earth. Num. 16:30, 33; Ps. 141:7; Isa. 5:14; 14:9-20; Eze. 31:15-18; 32:18-32. Referring to the fire now burning, in the heart of the earth, which shall at the last day swallow up the earth in its fiery gulf, Moses represents the Almighty as saying, "For the fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest sheol, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." Deut. 32:22. Jonah went down into sheol when, in the belly of the whale, he descended into the depths of the mighty waters, where none but dead men had ever been. Jonah 2:2. Korah and his company went into sheol alive; that is, the earth swallowed them up while yet alive. Num. 16. {ND JNA, RMLA 8.2}

18. The righteous do not praise God in sheol. Thus David testifies: "In death there is no remembrance of thee; in sheol who shall give thee thanks?" Ps. 6:5. And Hezekiah, when delivered from death in answer to

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prayer, expresses the same great truth: "I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of sheol; I am deprived of the residue of my years. * * * * Behold, for peace I had great bitterness; but thou hast in love to my SOUL delivered it from the pit of corruption ; for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. For sheol cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee; they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day; the father to the children shall make known thy truth." Isa. 38:10-19; Ps. 115:17; 146:1-4. {ND JNA, RMLA 8.3}

19. The wicked in sheol are silent in death. Thus David prays: "Let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in sheol." Ps. 31:17. See also 1 Sam. 2:9; Ps. 115:17, last clause. {ND JNA, RMLA 9.1}

20. Sheol is a place of silence, secrecy, sleep, rest, darkness, corruption, and worms. "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, not be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in sheol, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee; thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands." Job 14:12-15. "If I wait, sheol is mine house; I have made my bed in the darkness. I have said to corruption, Thou art my father; to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister. And where is now my hope? As for my hope, who shall see it? They shall go down to the bars of sheol, when our rest together is in the dust." Job 17:13-16; 4:11-19; Ps. 88:10-12. {ND JNA, RMLA 9.2}

21. There is no knowledge in sheol. Thus writes the wise man, the Spirit of inspiration bearing testimony through him: "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, no device,

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nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol, whither thou goest." Eccl. 9:4-6, 10. {ND JNA, RMLA 9.3}

22. Such are the great facts concerning sheol, or hades, as revealed to us in the books of "Moses and the prophets." Yet we have the following cases in these same writings in which the dead in sheol, in the nether parts of the earth, converse together, and are comforted or taunted by each other, or in which they weep bitterly, refusing comfort. {ND JNA, RMLA 10.1}

The case of the king of Babylon is a noted instance of this. When he is overthrown, and goes down to sheol, the DEAD (for sheol has no others in its dark abode) are stirred up to meet him. The kings that had been conquered and destroyed by the king of Babylon in the days of his prosperity now rise up from their thrones in that dark abode, and mock him with feigned obeisance as in life they had rendered real homage. Now they taunt him, saying, "Art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like unto us?" Those that see him shall narrowly look upon him, saying, "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms?" Isa. 14:9-20. {ND JNA, RMLA 10.2}

23. Pharaoh and his army, slaughtered in battle with the king of Babylon, are set forth in the same manner. The slain upon the field of battle being buried indiscriminately, and friend and foe cast down together into pits, into the "nether parts of the earth," into sheol, "the strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of sheol." And this sheol, in the nether parts of the earth, full of the dead, is contrasted with "the land of the living." These slaughtered soldiers went down to sheol with their weapons of war, and their swords they "laid under their heads." Pharaoh, lying among them, and seeing the multitude of his enemies that were slain, is "comforted" at the sight. See this remarkable prophecy, Eze. 32:17-32; 31:15-18. {ND JNA, RMLA 10.3}

24. Perhaps the case of Rachel is even more remarkable than these. Long ages after her decease and entrance into sheol, a dreadful slaughter of her posterity

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takes place. Upon this, Rachel breaks forth into lamentation and bitter weeping, and refuses to be comforted, because her children are not. Then the Lord says to her, "Refrain thy voice from weeping , and thine eyes from tears ; for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord." Jer. 31:15-17; Matt. 2:17, 18; Gen. 35:18-20. {ND JNA, RMLA 10.4}

25. That Rachel did literally weep and shed bitter tears at the murder of her children nearly two thousand years after her entrance into sheol, no one will assert. Nor will it be maintained that the slaughtered Egyptians and Chaldeans lying in sheol with their swords under their heads were able to converse together in the nether parts of the earth; and that one was literally "comforted," or the other literally "ashamed." Equally difficult is it to believe that the kings who had been overthrown by the king of Babylon were literally seated on thrones in sheol, deep in the earth, and that when he was cast down to sheol they arose from their thrones and mocked him, declaring that he was now become weak as they. Please compare the following texts on the king of Babylon: Jer. 51:39, 57; Dan. 5:1-4, 30; Isa. 14:4-30. {ND JNA, RMLA 11.1}

26. Taking our leave of "Moses and the prophets," whose testimony on this subject has the direct endorsement of our Lord, let us return to the case of Dives and Lazarus. Luke 16:19-31. Lazarus lived in the deepest poverty; too helpless to walk, or even to stand, he was laid at the rich man's gate; he had no other food than the crumbs, perhaps grudgingly bestowed, from the table of the rich man; and no other nurses than the dog which licked his sores. In process of time, death comes to his relief; but his burial is not mentioned, though that of the rich man, who died soon after, is distinctly named. It is likely that the dead beggar, covered with sores, was disposed of with as little trouble as possible; in the sight of man, he had the burial of a dog; but this poor man, forsaken of all earthly friends, and apparently unnoticed of Heaven, had, unseen to

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mortal eye, such a burial as the wealth of the whole world could not command. The angels of God took part as his bearers to that quiet resting place from which, by-and-by, when hades gives up the righteous dead, at the sound of the last trumpet, they shall take him up through the air, to meet his triumphant Redeemer. Till that time, we leave him asleep in Jesus, resting in hope, with Abraham the father of the faithful, and all the ancient worthies who have not yet received their promises. Heb. 11:8-16, 39, 40. {ND JNA, RMLA 11.2}

27. The rich man lived in luxury, faring sumptuously every day. To the eye of all beholders, his lot was envied, and that of the beggar to be despised. But he dies, also and of him it is recorded that he was buried. All that wealth could purchase, all that pride could exhibit of earthly pomp and grandeur, were, no doubt, displayed at his funeral. But there were no angels of God to participate in it. He had lived for himself, neglecting the great preparation for the future. He goes down to hades a lost man, there to wait until the resurrection to damnation. As the Douay Bible reads, "He was buried in hell," i.e. , in hades, or sheol. There he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then, as though calling to mind the littleness of the favors he had bestowed on Lazarus, he asks a favor at the hands of the despised beggar - the smallest indeed that he could ask - that Lazarus should dip the tip of this finger in water to cool his tongue. This being denied, he asks that Lazarus may be sent to warn his brethren. And this also was refused, because they had Moses and the prophets, whose testimony was sufficient. {ND JNA, RMLA 12.1}

28. This scene transpires in hades, or sheol, which, as we have seen, is in the nether parts of the earth. The place is one of darkness and silence, where there is neither wisdom nor knowledge. It is the place of the dead, and those who are therein are called "the congregation the dead." Prov. 21:16. In the utter darkness of hades, how can men see each other? "In the land of

13

forgetfulness," how can they remember the events of their past lives? In a place where there is no knowledge, how could Dives know Abraham, whom he had never seen? Where there is no work, nor device, how could he devise a plan to warn his wicked brethren? And in hades, where there is no wisdom, how could Abraham give such wise answers? In hades, where the wicked are silent in death, how could Dives converse? As the righteous cannot praise God in hades, and do not even remember his name, how does it happen that they can so well understand and converse on everything else? {ND JNA, RMLA 12.2}

29. We answer these questions precisely as we do those which arise from the testimony of "Moses and the prophets," to which we are in this parable referred. When Rachel, long dead, is represented as shedding tears and lamenting the murder of her children; when the mighty dead converse with Pharaoh in hades, and he is "comforted" with what he sees in the nether parts of the earth; and when the king of Babylon is mocked by dead kings who rise up from their thrones in hades and taunt him with his overthrow; when we read all this of that place where all is darkness, silence, secrecy, and death -a place within the earth itself, and when we consider that this parable relates to this very place, and cites us to these very testimonies for information on the subject, it becomes evident that one common answer pertains to all these questions. {ND JNA, RMLA 13.1}

30. The dead are personified, iii* and made to speak and

14

act in reference to the facts of their respective cases as though they were alive. Why should not the Spirit of God do this when it has seen fit to personify every kind of inanimate thing? Thus the blood of Abel cries to God. Gen. 4. And thus in Job, the depth and the sea are made to speak, and even destruction and death are represented as saying that they have heard the fame of wisdom with their ears . Job 28:14-22. The stone by the sanctuary heard all the words of Israel. Josh. 24. The trees, held an election and made speeches. Judges 9. The thistle proposes a matrimonial alliance, with the cedar. 2 Kings 14; 2 Chron. 25. All the trees sing out at the presence of God. 1 Chron. 16. The stone cries out of the wall, and the beam answers it. Hab. 2. The hire of the laborers, kept back by fraud, cries to God. James 5. Dead Abel yet speaketh. Heb. 11. The souls under the altar, slain for their testimony, and who do not live till the first resurrection, cry to God for vengeance. Rev. 6:9, 10. And, finally, death and hades are both personified -the one riding a pale horse, the other following, and both cutting down mankind. And this personification is still further carried out, when both, as though living enemies, are at last cast into the fire of gehenna. Rev. 6:8; 20:14; 1 Cor. 15; Hosea 13:14. {ND JNA, RMLA 13.2}

31. The apostle Paul has given us the key to all this, when he says of God that he "quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were." Rom. 4:17. And our Lord, in that remarkable discussion with the Sadducees, in which he proved the resurrection of the dead by the fact that God spoke of dead Abraham as though he were alive, gives us this same key, thus: "For all live unto him." Luke 20:38. Abraham, though dead, is spoken of as alive, because in the purpose of God he is to live again. {ND JNA, RMLA 14.1}

32. this parable our Lord illustrates several great truths. 1. The folly and vanity of riches. 2. The worth of true piety, though attended by the deepest poverty. 3. The importance of that great lesson inculcated in the previous parable, to make friends of the mammon of unrighteousness. Luke 16:9; 1 Tim. 6:17-19. The rich man had neglected this, wasting all on himself, though wretched, suffering Lazarus lay at his gate. The folly of this criminal neglect is shown in that part of this parable in which the rich man in his distress, as if remembering the past, is represented as asking of Lazarus the water that could be brought on the tip of his finger, and even this is denied. 4. The certainty of future recompense, and the great contrast that it will make with the present state of things. 5. kind. 6. But to make this text teach that the righteous dead are now recompensed, would be to array a parable against our Lord's plain statement that the recompense of the righteous

15

is at the resurrection of the just. Luke 14:14. 7. Or, to make the passage teach that the wicked dead are now in the lake of fire, is to make one of the Saviour's parables conflict in its teaching with his own grand description of the final Judgement, in which the wicked enter the everlasting fire at the dreadful mandate, "Depart from me, ye cursed." Matt. 25:41; Rev. 20:11-15. {ND JNA, RMLA 14.2}

33. Lazarus died a beggar. But he rests in hope, an heir to the inheritance promised Abraham. Eternal life and endless felicity are his, and by personification it is said that he is "comforted." Dives lives in the greatest splendor, and dies an impenitent man. The lake of fire is to be his portion. personification, he is represented as in it already. This is in accordance with the teaching of Paul, when he says of God that he calleth things that be not as though they were. That is, God speaks of things that exist only in his purpose just as though they had a present existence; because they shall surely exist; even as he called Abraham the father of many nations, when as yet he had no son. Gen. 17; Rom. 4:16, 17. {ND JNA, RMLA 15.1}

This is the more clearly seen when we consider that to Lazarus, in the silence of hades, there will not be a moment between his death, at the gate of the rich man, and his resurrection to eternal life, and not a moment to the rich man between the closing of his eyes in death, and his opening them in the resurrection to damnation. {ND JNA, RMLA 15.2}

34. That we have done right in hearing the testimony of "Moses and the prophets" on this subject, we have the authority of the parable itself to show. And we have this further evidence of the truth of this exposition that, without doing violence to a single text, we have a divine harmony on the subject of the dead in hades, in all that is said by Moses and the prophets and by Christ and the apostles. {ND JNA, RMLA 15.3}

That those who conversed together are not disembodied spirits, but personified dead men, is further proved by the following facts: 1. Not one word is said of the spirit of any person named. 2. This conversation takes place in hades, which the sacred writers affirm to be in the depths of the earth. 3. The persons named are men that had lived, the one clothed in purple, the other covered with sores, and both were then dead. But these dead men have bodily organs, as eyes, fingers, tongues, etc. But the truth on this point is sealed by the fact that Lazarus could only return to warn the rich man's brethren by being raised from the dead . "Neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead" -Gr., -ean tis ek nekron anaste . It was not whether the spirit of Lazarus should descend from the third Heaven, but whether Lazarus himself should be raised from among the dead ones. This shows that the conversation did

16

not relate to the coming back of disembodied spirits; and in fact that they were not disembodied spirits that here conversed. {ND JNA, RMLA 15.4}

The parable of Dives and Lazarus does not therefore teach the present punishment of the wicked dead. And as there is nothing else on which to rest the doctrine, it must be given up as having no foundation in the Bible. The testimony shows that the wicked dead are asleep in sheol, where they await the resurrection to damnation. The following texts show that the resurrection and judgement of the wicked take place before they are punished; a doctrine in the highest degree reasonable, and sustained by many plain testimonies. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.1}

1. "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to RESERVE the unjust unto the day of Judgement to be punished." 2 Pet. 2:9. The day of Judgment must arrive before the retribution of the ungodly. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.2}

2. "The heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Pet. 3:7. The perdition of ungodly men comes at the Judgment. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.3}

3. "The wicked is RESERVED to the day of destruction; they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath." Job 21:30. The next scripture will explain this. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.4}

4. "Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in their graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.5}

5. The wicked are first raised and judged, then afterward cast into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:11-15. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.6}

6. Vengeance is taken upon all the ungodly together when the Lord comes with his saints. Jude 14, 15. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.7}

7. The wicked are cast into the furnace of fire at the end, and not before. Matt. 13:30, 39-43, 49, 50. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.8}

8. The burning day is the time when the wicked meet their fate. Mal. 4; Ps. 21:9. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.9}

9. The wrath of God waits till the day of wrath. Rom. 2:5-9. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.10}

10. Tribulation to the ungodly comes in connection with the advent of the Saviour. 2 Thess. 1. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.11}

11. The wicked dead are not punished till after the seventh trumpet. Rev. 11:15, 18. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.12}

12. The Judge says, "Depart from me, ye cursed," and then, for the first time, the ungodly enter the furnace of fire. Matt. 25:41. {ND JNA, RMLA 16.13}

i Name: The Rich Man and Lazarus

Book Code: RMLA

Author: Andrews, John Nevins

Author Code: JNA

Date of Publication: ND

Publisher: Review and Herald, Battle Creek, Mich.

Publication Type: Pamphlet

Number of Pages: 16


ii NOTE. The reader will observe that texts are quoted in this tract with words sheol or hades, instead of grave, or pit, or hell; which our English version uses. This is because sheol, or hades, is the word used in the original Hebrew or Greek Scriptures. See the lists above.

iii Webster defines personification thus: "The giving to an inanimate being the figure or the sentiments and language of a rational being; prosopopoeia, as 'Confusion heard his voice.'"
He defines personify thus: "To give animation to inanimate objects; to ascribe to an inanimate being the sentiments, actions, or language, of a rational being, or person, or to represent an inanimate being with the affections and actions of a person. Thus we say, the plants thirst for rain. 'The trees said to the fig-tree, Come thou and reign over us.'" Judges 9.
He defines prosopopoeia , or intense personification, thus: "A figure in rhetoric by which things are represented as persons, or by which things inanimate beings, or by which an absent person is introduced as speaking, or a deceased person is represented as alive and present. It includes personification , but is more extensive in its signification."



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/29/13 09:19 PM

How does one misinterpret this?
Quote:

Genesis 6:5 MKJV And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And Jehovah repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was angry to His heart.
7 And Jehovah said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air. For I repent that I have made them.

Genesis 6:5 KJV And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Who said. "I will destroy man"?
God said in Genesis 6:7, "I will destroy man...."

How then can anybody say that God will NOT destroy man???
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 03:32 AM

Daryl,

I've pointed out that text, and others, multiple times. The answer is either not forthcoming, or the answer that they always give is the same--that God destroys by withdrawing His protection and leaving sinners to their fate via either "natural causes" or by Satan. I expect you'll hear something similar from them regarding the Flood. However, that it cannot have been Satan in this case is clear from the writings of Mrs. White.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
As the violence of the storm increased, trees, buildings, rocks, and earth were hurled in every direction. The terror of man and beast was beyond description. Above the roar of the tempest was heard the wailing of a people that had despised the authority of God. Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence. He had delighted to control so powerful a race, and desired them to live to practice their abominations and continue their rebellion against the Ruler of heaven. He now uttered imprecations against God, charging Him with injustice and cruelty. Many of the people, like Satan, blasphemed God, and had they been able, they would have torn Him from the throne of power. Others were frantic with fear, stretching their hands toward the ark and pleading for admittance. But their entreaties were in vain. Conscience was at last aroused to know that there is a God who ruleth in the heavens. They called upon Him earnestly, but His ear was not open to their cry. In that terrible hour they saw that the transgression of God's law had caused their ruin. Yet while, through fear of punishment, they acknowledged their sin, they felt no true contrition, no abhorrence of evil. They would have returned to their defiance of Heaven, had the judgment been removed. So when God's judgments shall fall upon the earth before its deluge by fire, the impenitent will know just where and what their sin is--the despising of His holy law. Yet they will have no more true repentance than did the old-world sinners. {PP 99.3}


Multiple points can be made about that one paragraph above. Among them are these: 1) Satan was afraid for his own life during the flood--which shows Satan was not the one in charge; 2) Mrs. White speaks of it as clearly being a judgment of God; 3) the antediluvians are said to have realized that there is a God "who ruleth in the heavens"; 4) God is said to have closed His ear to their cries; and 5) the time of "deluge by fire" will be much like the time of the deluge by water.

It is clear that God was in control of the elements. Even if one were to argue that God brought in the Flood by merely withdrawing His protection, then one is basically saying that God uses the elements to destroy people. Remember, the wind and the waves "obey His will." God is actively in charge of His universe. There's nothing "passive" about it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 04:01 AM

Originally Posted By: daryl
Who said. "I will destroy man"?
God said in Genesis 6:7, "I will destroy man...."

How then can anybody say that God will NOT destroy man???



Deuteronomy 32:18-30
18 They forgot their God, their mighty savior, the one who had given them life.
19 "When the LORD saw this, he was angry and rejected his sons and daughters.
20 'I will no longer help them,' he said; 'then I will see what happens to them, those stubborn, unfaithful people.
21 With their idols they have made me angry, jealous with their so-called gods, gods that are really not gods. So I will use a so-called nation to make them angry; I will make them jealous with a nation of fools.
22 My anger will flame up like fire and burn everything on earth. It will reach to the world below and consume the roots of the mountains.
23 " 'I will bring on them endless disasters and use all my arrows against them.
24 They will die from hunger and fever; they will die from terrible diseases. I will send wild animals to attack them, and poisonous snakes to bite them.
25 War will bring death in the streets; terrors will strike in the homes. Young men and young women will die; neither babies nor old people will be spared.
26 I would have destroyed them completely, so that no one would remember them.
27 But I could not let their enemies boast that they had defeated my people, when it was I myself who had crushed them.'
28 "Israel is a nation without sense; they have no wisdom at all.
29 They fail to see why they were defeated; they cannot understand what happened.
30 Why were a thousand defeated by one, and ten thousand by only two? The LORD, their God, had abandoned them; their mighty God had given them up.

Who brought on all the disasters? Who brought on the fires, the arrows, the pestilence? WHO? Who sent in the poisonous snakes to bite them? WHO? My Bible says God did this. But then it gives the real answer. God could no longer protect them, and when He had withdrawn, all hell broke loose.

EGW: God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 04:02 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: JNA
This fearful execution of God's judgment is witnessed before the deliverance of the saints; for not less than six of the plagues are poured out prior to the advent of Christ. Rev.16:12-15. {1890 JNA, JEO 90.1}
Does God directly cause the last plagues?
Daryl, Green - do you have an answer?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 04:09 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
God could no longer protect them, and when He had withdrawn, all hell broke loose.

Who was in charge of this "hell?" Let's see, God is in charge of the entire Universe, right? Will you admit this point? Then, if God is not in charge of this "hell," one of two things must be true:

1) God created a hostile environment that will mistreat His creatures if it is not kept in check; OR
2) An enemy of God (Satan or his host) is permitted to be in charge.

In the case of the flood, #2 is not an option. So, in the case of the Flood, it's either #1 or else God Himself was directly in charge of it.

Will you gainsay this?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 04:15 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: JNA
This fearful execution of God's judgment is witnessed before the deliverance of the saints; for not less than six of the plagues are poured out prior to the advent of Christ. Rev.16:12-15. {1890 JNA, JEO 90.1}
Does God directly cause the last plagues?
Daryl, Green - do you have an answer?


It is written...

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
At the general conference of believers in the present truth, held at Sutton, Vermont, September, 1850, I was shown that the seven last plagues will be poured out after Jesus leaves the sanctuary. Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the one thousand years." {EW 52.1}


APL, I would urge you not to turn your face from truth. Accept it. Truth will be healing to your soul.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 04:17 AM

Green, I would urge you not to turn your face from truth. Accept it. Truth will be healing to your soul.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 04:19 AM

Yes, APL, I have long accepted this truth already that God destroys the wicked.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 04:21 AM

Originally Posted By: green
1) God created a hostile environment that will mistreat His creatures if it is not kept in check; OR
2) An enemy of God (Satan or his host) is permitted to be in charge.

In the case of the flood, #2 is not an option. So, in the case of the Flood, it's either #1 or else God Himself was directly in charge of it.


Do you completely miss the idea that what Satan unleashed, even he could not control? Satan is the destroyer, God is the restorer. From your point of view, I must fear God more than Satan. But what does the OT repeatedly say? "DO NOT BE AFRAID". This is Gospel. This is Good News. This is everlasting Good News.

It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth. {COL 415.3}

This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him." Isa_40:9-10. {COL 415.4}

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. The children of God are to manifest His glory. In their own life and character they are to reveal what the grace of God has done for them. {COL 415.5}
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 04:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Yes, APL, I have long accepted this truth already that God destroys the wicked.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
******* STAFF EDIT ******* A god that needs to be appeased, even a sadistic god who would torture his victim. It is not the truth.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 04:26 AM

APL,

Satan won't be in charge of his own death either. He has far passed the limit of Divine forbearance, and will meet his punishment. He has chosen his own course, and so has no one to blame but himself. Nonetheless, God will administer his punishment.

Satan himself will recognize God's justice in doing so. Why don't you?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 04:29 AM

I don't think you have read the opening post of this thread Green. You have certainly not provided any coherent rebuttal.


Psalms 34:21-22 Evil will kill the wicked; those who hate the righteous will be punished. 22 The LORD will save his people; those who go to him for protection will be spared.

What kills the wicked? Is God evil????
Originally Posted By: sdabc on Psalms 34:21
Evil shall slay. Sin consumes itself. Death is the natural and inescapable consequence of sin.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 04:33 AM

APL,

I have no need to rebut truth. Truth is truth. Evil does slay the wicked. But sin does not punish the wicked in the end, nor is it always responsible for the death of the wicked. Your problem is that you like to "universalize" facts to make them applicable to every situation if they can apply to even one. Unfortunately, this is neither sound logic nor good theology.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 04:37 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
I don't think you have read the opening post of this thread Green. You have certainly not provided any coherent rebuttal.


Psalms 34:21-22 Evil will kill the wicked; those who hate the righteous will be punished. 22 The LORD will save his people; those who go to him for protection will be spared.

What kills the wicked? Is God evil????
Originally Posted By: sdabc on Psalms 34:21
Evil shall slay. Sin consumes itself. Death is the natural and inescapable consequence of sin.



APL,

You are trying to twist the words of scripture. You are trying to make the phrase "evil shall slay the wicked" into "the wicked are always and only slain by evil." This is a misrepresentation. One cannot with impunity add or subtract his or her own words from God's Word.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 04:46 AM

The verse says, "Evil will kill the wicked". It is you that is adding words.

It is also hard to rebut EGW's saying, " God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression". What is the sentence against transgression? The second death.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 04:53 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
The verse says, "Evil will kill the wicked". It is you that is adding words.

It is also hard to rebut EGW's saying, " God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression". What is the sentence against transgression? The second death.


APL,

I added no words. I simply quoted the KJV, from which I have memorized the entire chapter. In the KJV it says "Evil shall slay the wicked." But what it does NOT say is more telling. It does not say that this "slaying" occurs every time that the wicked die, or that it is the way the wicked are punished in their second death. It does NOT say that God never would slay anyone. And it does NOT say this is the ONLY way for anyone to die.

Now, suppose you are righteous. Will evil "slay" you too? Even the righteous die, right? We are all mortals this side of Heaven. Who "slays" you if you die of "natural causes," or even some accident?

In any case, this is all going off-topic. The Wrath of God is something the world has yet to witness, and there is but a twinge of it that was seen when Jesus cleansed the temple--not nearly enough to actually cause anyone's death, but only enough to make them realize who Jesus was and how dark their own deeds were.

May we stay close to Him, that we be not partakers with the wicked of His wrath.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 05:03 AM

Quote:
What kills the wicked? Is God evil????
Originally Posted By: sdabc on Psalms 34:21

Evil shall slay. Sin consumes itself. Death is the natural and inescapable consequence of sin.

Sin is ALWAYS the cause of death, but it's not the agent of death. It's interesting that the fall of Jerusalem is often presented as a shadow of the final destruction of the wicked. But what happened then? Was sin the agent that produced the death of the inhabitants of Jerusalem? It sure was the cause, but what produced the death? Weren't it the weapons of the romans?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 05:40 AM

Sin is the cause of all death, all, animals, humans, plants. you said "The Wrath of God is something the world has yet to witness". Well, then Romans 1:18 is wrong then as it says that the wrath of God IS revealed, present tense. JN Andrews, whom you chose to quote says, "We have shown that the plagues, and the wrath of God without mixture are the same" as does EGW see {EW 64.2} You claim it is God that causes all the mayhem of the plagues. However, is this true?

Originally Posted By: EGW
The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens, and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future. The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior . . . with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood" (Isaiah 9:5),--what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule. {GC 36.2}


The destruction of Jerusalem was by the judgment of God. HOW did God destroy Jerusalem? He withdrew His protection. The last plagues occur when the restraining Spirit of God is wholly withdrawn. The world will see the result of Satan's rule, satanic wrath. The "Wrath of God" happens when God withdraws His protection. Satanic rule is unleashed. God is not the acting subject in the plagues. It is Satan, not God.

Originally Posted By: EGW
While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when He stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed and Satan had entire control of the finally impenitent. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. {EW 280.2}


K. Straub: This statement verifies the truth that it is the removal of God’s restraining power that releases the powers of individuals and nature into Satan’s hands. They then burst with destructive fury upon the shelterless heads of the wicked.

Let the expression, “there is nothing to stay the wrath of God,” be guarded from misunderstanding. Before the principles in regard to God’s character are understood, this would be taken to mean that God was personally angered and, therefore, anxious to smite the offenders but is restrained by the intercession of His Son until Jesus finishes His work in the sanctuary.

If this interpretation is correct, then Christ and His Father are working against each other. God is longing to destroy humanity while Christ is restraining Him. However, it is impossible to believe this and at the same time hold to the great and precious truth that Christ and the Father are one and that, far from working against each other, they are fully united in the task of saving their creation—“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself” (2 Corinthians 5:19).

There could be nothing closer than the unity of the Father and the Son in the work of salvation. God is not seeking to destroy sinners while the Son works to delay the unleashing of the Father’s fury. They are working together to the limit of their resources to bring people back to eternal life, and only when people utterly reject those saving measures, do the Father and Son jointly leave the rebellious to their chosen fate.

Also, as we see that the wrath of God functions through the work of Satan, we are given a clear understanding of what His wrath is and what it is not, for God does not work with Satan to achieve a destructive purpose. Rather, as people reach a point of total rejection of God, in the granting of freedom to choose their path, He has no choice but to give them over to Satan, who is then released to do his own work, to God’s sorrow.

Originally Posted By: EGW
Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 8}

This time is right upon us. The Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth. When the angel of mercy folds her wings and departs, Satan will do the evil deeds he has long wished to do. Storm and tempest, war and bloodshed,--in these things he delights, and thus he gathers in his harvest. {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 9}

Originally Posted By: EGW
God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. {GC 36.1}

The wicked have sown the seed. The harvest is inevitable. But it is not the work of God. It is the work of people against themselves. They sowed the seed. They reap the harvest.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 05:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
What kills the wicked? Is God evil????
Originally Posted By: sdabc on Psalms 34:21

Evil shall slay. Sin consumes itself. Death is the natural and inescapable consequence of sin.

Sin is ALWAYS the cause of death, but it's not the agent of death. It's interesting that the fall of Jerusalem is often presented as a shadow of the final destruction of the wicked. But what happened then? Was sin the agent that produced the death of the inhabitants of Jerusalem? It sure was the cause, but what produced the death? Weren't it the weapons of the romans?
Note - I was quoting the SDABC. So I am not alone in my understanding. Sin pays its wage, death. Sin IS the agent of death. Sin, when it is full grown, bring death. Romans 6:23; James 1:15. Sin causes all death, human, plant and animal alike.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 05:56 AM

APL,

If you do a search on the EGW CD looking for [ "sin consum*" /3 ], you will discover that instead of finding an inspired statement that says sin will consume itself, you will find that God consumes the wicked.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
If you cling to self, refusing to yield your will to God, you are choosing death. To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you. {MB 62.1}


That is, in fact, the only result of that search.

Do you agree, APL, that God will "consume" the wicked?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 06:27 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Sin is the cause of all death, all, animals, humans, plants. you said "The Wrath of God is something the world has yet to witness". Well, then Romans 1:18 is wrong then as it says that the wrath of God IS revealed, present tense. JN Andrews, whom you chose to quote says, "We have shown that the plagues, and the wrath of God without mixture are the same" as does EGW see {EW 64.2} You claim it is God that causes all the mayhem of the plagues. However, is this true?

Originally Posted By: EGW
The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens, and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future. The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior . . . with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood" (Isaiah 9:5),--what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule. {GC 36.2}


The destruction of Jerusalem was by the judgment of God. HOW did God destroy Jerusalem? He withdrew His protection. The last plagues occur when the restraining Spirit of God is wholly withdrawn. The world will see the result of Satan's rule, satanic wrath. The "Wrath of God" happens when God withdraws His protection. Satanic rule is unleashed. God is not the acting subject in the plagues. It is Satan, not God.

Originally Posted By: EGW
While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when He stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed and Satan had entire control of the finally impenitent. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. {EW 280.2}


K. Straub: This statement verifies the truth that it is the removal of God’s restraining power that releases the powers of individuals and nature into Satan’s hands. They then burst with destructive fury upon the shelterless heads of the wicked.

Let the expression, “there is nothing to stay the wrath of God,” be guarded from misunderstanding. Before the principles in regard to God’s character are understood, this would be taken to mean that God was personally angered and, therefore, anxious to smite the offenders but is restrained by the intercession of His Son until Jesus finishes His work in the sanctuary.

If this interpretation is correct, then Christ and His Father are working against each other. God is longing to destroy humanity while Christ is restraining Him. However, it is impossible to believe this and at the same time hold to the great and precious truth that Christ and the Father are one and that, far from working against each other, they are fully united in the task of saving their creation—“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself” (2 Corinthians 5:19).

There could be nothing closer than the unity of the Father and the Son in the work of salvation. God is not seeking to destroy sinners while the Son works to delay the unleashing of the Father’s fury. They are working together to the limit of their resources to bring people back to eternal life, and only when people utterly reject those saving measures, do the Father and Son jointly leave the rebellious to their chosen fate.

Also, as we see that the wrath of God functions through the work of Satan, we are given a clear understanding of what His wrath is and what it is not, for God does not work with Satan to achieve a destructive purpose. Rather, as people reach a point of total rejection of God, in the granting of freedom to choose their path, He has no choice but to give them over to Satan, who is then released to do his own work, to God’s sorrow.

Originally Posted By: EGW
Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 8}

This time is right upon us. The Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth. When the angel of mercy folds her wings and departs, Satan will do the evil deeds he has long wished to do. Storm and tempest, war and bloodshed,--in these things he delights, and thus he gathers in his harvest. {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 9}

Originally Posted By: EGW
God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. {GC 36.1}

The wicked have sown the seed. The harvest is inevitable. But it is not the work of God. It is the work of people against themselves. They sowed the seed. They reap the harvest.

APL,

You have ignored some facts that I've already posted. When you say that the Bible uses present tense in saying that the wrath of God "is revealed," I again point out what I have said before that the Bible uses present tense in saying "is come" when speaking of the destruction of the world by flood yet 120 years future. In fact, let's look at another example to help us understand this point.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)


Jesus here stated, using present tense, that His followers "have everlasting life." He further stated that "the wrath of God abides" on those who do not believe God--present tense.

Tell me, APL, are you aware of any mortals here who presently "have everlasting life?" Or is this yet future?

In your quote of Mrs. White, you focused upon the second fulfillment of Jerusalem's destruction, but you apparently missed a key part of that sentence.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow.

Jerusalem was barely a scent of what will yet come. There's little comparison between a "faint shadow" and the full light of day. To use Jerusalem, therefore, to show the "only" way things could be judged or dealt with seems a little short-sighted.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 07:02 AM

Originally Posted By: green
Jerusalem was barely a scent of what will yet come. There's little comparison between a "faint shadow" and the full light of day. To use Jerusalem, therefore, to show the "only" way things could be judged or dealt with seems a little short-sighted.
But do not ignore how Jerusalem was destroyed. It was by God withdrawing his protection. For EGW wrote, Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1} The same paragraph I have repeatedly quote, and for which you deny, that God is not the executioner.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 07:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

If you do a search on the EGW CD looking for [ "sin consum*" /3 ], you will discover that instead of finding an inspired statement that says sin will consume itself, you will find that God consumes the wicked.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
If you cling to self, refusing to yield your will to God, you are choosing death. To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you. {MB 62.1}


That is, in fact, the only result of that search.

Do you agree, APL, that God will "consume" the wicked?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
I have no problem with this, at all. Sin is the problem. Would you care to explain how this happens? How does the destruction of sin cause the death of the sinner that clings to it? This is not an imposed penalty as you would like it to be. The righteous are not consumed in the same presence.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 07:48 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
Jerusalem was barely a scent of what will yet come. There's little comparison between a "faint shadow" and the full light of day. To use Jerusalem, therefore, to show the "only" way things could be judged or dealt with seems a little short-sighted.
But do not ignore how Jerusalem was destroyed. It was by God withdrawing his protection. For EGW wrote, Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1} The same paragraph I have repeatedly quote, and for which you deny, that God is not the executioner.

APL,

It is counterproductive for you to consistently maintain your misperceptions of my beliefs despite my having explained to you otherwise. I do not reject or deny the quote from Mrs. White that you have repeatedly brought forward. I accept it fully. We've been over this before. You do not accept what I've said. That is fine. But it is not fine for you to say I deny the quote. To say this is to lie, for I do not deny Mrs. White's quote.

Do you remember our discussion about the meaning of "stand toward?" Perhaps you still do not accept what those words mean. It is you who is "denying" truth here. God does not stand toward the sinner as executioner.

Here are some other uses of "stand toward."

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Many passed and looked pityingly upon it, and I waited anxiously for a friendly hand to raise it; but no help was offered. I inquired why no hand raised the vine. Presently I saw an angel come to the apparently deserted vine. He spread out his arms and placed them beneath the vine, and raised it so that it stood upright, saying: "Stand toward heaven, and let thy tendrils entwine about God. Thou art shaken from human support. Thou canst stand, in the strength of God, and flourish without it. Lean upon God alone, and thou shalt never lean in vain, or be shaken therefrom." {LS 176.2}

The religious feelings of many were more natural than spiritual, and although they tried to be satisfied they felt an unrest--cold, dark, and Christless. They remained in ignorance of how they stand toward God, ignorant as far as experimental knowledge was concerned of the office work of our Mediator and Intercessor. When they by faith laid hold of Christ, their hearts were contrite and broken. Christ was being formed within, the hope of glory. This was everything to them. It was the intelligence of what constituted the mystery of godliness. The miracle is wrought. The Lord and His Spirit break in upon the soul. Life and joy take possession of the heart. How quickly is the soul made sensible of its deficiency. Everything is laid open before Him with whom we have to do. {16MR 228.3}

Then the Lord, in answer to the question of the lawyer, "And who is my neighbor?" shows them what is true love, and the relation in which all mankind stand toward their fellow men, each interested for one another. The scene was presented in parable form, but had been a true transaction to the letter, and quite a number knew this to be fact. One of those Samaritans they so much despised was the only one who helped the wounded, bruised, and half-killed man and neighbor. {21MR 190.2}

God stands toward His people in the relation of a father, and He has a father's claim to our faithful service. Consider the life of Christ. Standing at the head of humanity, serving His Father, He is an example of what every son should and may be. The obedience that Christ rendered God requires from human beings today. He served His Father with love, in willingness and freedom. "I delight to do Thy will, O My God," He declared; "yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. Christ counted no sacrifice too great, no toil too hard, in order to accomplish the work which He came to do. At the age of twelve He said, "Wist ye not that I must be about My Father's business?" Luke 2:49. He had heard the call, and had taken up the work. "My meat," He said, "is to do the will of Him that sent Me, and to finish His work." John 4:34. {COL 282.3}


In other words, "stand toward" is used to mean "represent" or "symbolize."

The 1828 Webster's Dictionary which lists the meanings for "stand" that would have been prevalent in Mrs. White's day has the following:

Originally Posted By: Webster's 1828 Dictionary
STAND, v.i. pret. and pp. stood. [This verb, if from the root of G., is a derivative from the noun, which is formed from the participle of the original verb. In this case, the noun should properly precede the verb. It may be here remarked that if stan is the radical word, stand and L. Sto cannot be from the same stock. But stand in the pret. is stood, and sto forms steti. This induces a suspicion that stan is not the root of stand, but that n is casual. I am inclined however to believe these words to be from different roots. The Russ. Stoyu, to stand, is the L. sto, but it signifies also to be, to exist, being the substantive verb.]
1. To be upon the feet, as an animal; not to sit, kneel or lie.
The absolution to be pronounced by the priest alone, standing.
And the king turned his face about and blessed all the congregation of Israel, and all the congregation of Israel stood. 1 Kings 8:14.
2. To be erect, supported by the roots, as a tree or other plant. Notwithstanding the violence of the wind, the tree yet stands.
3. To be on its foundation; not to be overthrown or demolished; as, an old castle is yet standing.
4. To be placed or situated; to have a certain position or location. Paris stands on the Seine. London stands on the Thames.
5. To remain upright, in a moral sense; not to fall.
To stand or fall, free in thy own arbitrement it lies.
6. To become erect.
Mute and amazd, my hair with horror stood.
7. To stop; to halt; not to proceed.
I charge thee, stand, and tell thy name.
8. To stop; to be at a stationary point.
Say, at what part of nature will they stand?
9. To be in a state of fixedness; hence, to continue; to endure. Our constitution has stood nearly forty years. It is hoped it will stand for ages.
Commonwealth by virtue ever stood.
10. To be fixed or steady; not to vacillate. His mind stands unmoved.
11. To be in or to maintain a posture of resistance or defense. Approach with charged bayonets; the enemy will not stand.
The king granted the Jews to stand for their life. Esther 8:11.
12. To be placed with regard to order or rank. Note the letter that stands first in order. Gen. Washington stood highest in public estimation. Christian charity stands first in the rank of gracious affections.
13. To be in particular state; to be, emphatically expressed, that is, to be fixed or set; the primary sense of the substantive verb. How does the value of wheat stand? God stands in no need of our services, but we always stand in need of his aid and his mercy.
Accomplish what your signs foreshow; I stand resignd.
14. To continue unchanged or valid; not to fail or become void.
No condition of our peace can stand.
My mercy will I keep for him, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. Psalm 89:28.
15. To consist; to have its being and essence.
Sacrifices--which stood only in meats and drinks. Hebrews 9:10.
16. To have a place.
This excellent man, who stood not on the advantage-ground before, provoked men of all qualities.
17. To be in any state. Let us see how our matters stand.
As things now stand with us--
18. To be in particular respect or relation; as, to stand godfather to one. We ought to act according to the relation we stand in towards each other.
19. To be, with regard to state of mind.
Stand in awe, and sin not. Psalm 4:4.
20. To succeed; to maintain ones ground; not to fail; to be acquitted; to be safe.
Readers by whose judgment I would stand or fall--
21. To hold a course at sea; as, to stand from the shore; to stand for the harbor.
From the same parts of heavn his navy stands.
22. To have a direction.
The wand did not really stand to the metal, when placed under it.
23. To offer ones self as a candidate.
He stood to be elected one of the proctors of the university.
24. To place ones self; to be placed.
I stood between the Lord and you at that time-- Deuteronomy 5:5.
25. To stagnate; not to flow.
--Or the black water of Pomptina stands.
26. To be satisfied or convinced.
Though Page be a secure fool, and stand so firmly on his wifes frailty--
27. To make delay. I cannot stand to examine every particular.
28. To persist; to persevere.
Never stand in a lie when thou art accused.
29. To adhere; to abide.
Despair would stand to the sword.
30. To be permanent; to endure; not to vanish or fade; as, the color will stand.
To stand by,
1. To be near; to be a spectator; to be present. I stood by when the operation was performed. This phrase generally implies that the person is inactive, or takes no part in what is done. In seamens language, to stand by is to attend and be ready. Stand by the haliards.
2. To be aside; to be placed aside with disregard.
In the mean time, we let the commands stand by neglected.
3. To maintain; to defend; to support; not to desert. I will stand by my friend to the last. Let us stand by our country. To stand by the Arundelian marbles, in Pope, is to defend or support their genuineness.
4. To rest on for support; to be supported.
This reply standeth by conjecture.
To stand for,
1. To offer ones self as a candidate.
How many stand for consulships?--Three.
2. To side with; to support; to maintain, or to profess or attempt to maintain. We all stand for freedom, for our rights or claims.
3. To be in the place of; to be the substitute or representative of. A cipher at the left hand of a figure stands for nothing.
I will not trouble myself, whether these names stand for the same thing, or really include one another.
4. In seamens language, to direct the course towards.
To stand from, to direct the course from.
To stand one in, to cost. The coat stands him in twenty dollars.
To stand in, or stand in for, in seamens language, is to direct a course towards land or a harbor.
To stand off,
1. To keep at a distance.
2. Not to comply.
3. To keep at a distance in friendship or social intercourse; to forbear intimacy.
We stand off from an acquaintance with God.
4. To appear prominent; to have relief.
Picture is best when it standeth off, as if it were carved.
To stand off, or off from, in seamens language, is to direct the course from land.
To stand off and on, is to sail towards land and then from it.
To stand out,
1. To project; to be prominent.
Their eyes stand out with fatness. Psalm 73:7.
2. To persist in opposition or resistance; not to yield or comply; not to give way or recede.
His spirit is come in, that so stood out against the holy church.
3. With seamen, to direct the course from land or a harbor.
To stand to,
1. To ply; to urge efforts; to persevere.
Stand to your tackles, mates, and stretch your oars.
2. To remain fixed in a purpose or opinion.
I still stand to it, that this is his sense.
3. To abide by; to adhere; as to a contract, assertion, promise, etc.; as, to stand to an award; to stand to ones word.
4. Not to yield; not to fly; to maintain the ground.
Their lives and fortunes were put in safety, whether they stood to it or ran away.
To stand to sea, to direct the course from land.
To stand under, to undergo; to sustain.
To stand up,
1. To rise from sitting; to be on the feet.
2. To arise in order to gain notice.
Against whom when the accusers stood up, they brought no accusation of such things as I supposed. Acts 25:18.
3. To make a party.
When we stood up about the corn--
To stand up for, to defend; to justify; to support, or attempt to support; as, to stand up for the administration.
To stand upon,
1. To concern; to interest. Does it not stand upon them to examine the grounds of their opinion? This phrase is, I believe, obsolete; but we say, it stands us in hand, that is, it is our concern, it is for our interest.
2. To value; to pride.
We highly esteem and stand much upon our birth.
3. To insist; as, to stand upon security.
To stand with, to be consistent. The faithful servants of God will receive what they pray for, so far as stands with his purposes and glory.
It stands with reason that they should be rewarded liberally.
To stand together, is used, but the last two phrases are not in very general use, and are perhaps growing obsolete.
To stand against, to oppose; to resist.
To stand fast, to be fixed; to be unshaken or immovable.
To stand in hand, to be important to ones interest; to be necessary or advantageous. It stands us in hand to be on good terms with our neighbors.

STAND, v.t.
1. To endure; to sustain; to bear. I cannot stand the cold or the heat.
2. To endure; to resist without yielding or receding.
So had I stood the shock of angry fat.
He stood the furious foe.
3. To await; to suffer; to abide by.
Bid him disband the legions--and stand the judgment of a Roman senate.
To stand ones ground, to deep the ground or station one has taken; to maintain ones position; in a literal or figurative sense; as, an army stands its ground, when it is not compelled to retreat. A man stands his ground in an argument, when he is able to maintain it, or is not refuted.
To stand it, to bear; to be able to endure; or to maintain ones ground or state; a popular phrase.
To stand trial, is to sustain the trial or examination of a cause; not to give up without trial.


As can be seen there, no entry exists for the expression "stand toward." So the best way of understanding its meaning is from the context of Ellen White's own usage of it.

God does not wish to be symbolized to sinners as the executioner. That is not the manner in which to portray Him to the world. We are not to preach to others that God will destroy them for their sins, with no mention of His mercy, love, and forgiveness. (Maybe this is why Jonah erred so much in his understanding of things.) God is our Savior. But for those who have rejected God forever, He will work justice. This is clear in the Spirit of Prophecy.

When God acts the part of the executor of justice, it will be His "strange act." He is not accustomed to assuming that role. He will do so; however, we are not represent Him to the world as a vengeful God who demands justice over every small infraction. We must teach the world of God's love, patience and forgiveness. In this sense, APL, you have part of the truth. But justice and mercy are twins. They are both part of God's perfect character. We may not safely accept the one side while rejecting the other--and it matters not which side one were to accept or reject. Both are part of the balance.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 09:08 AM

Originally Posted By: green
God does not wish to be symbolized to sinners as the executioner.
You do not want to symbolize God as the executioner that you say He is. That is what you are saying. WRONG. God is NOT the executioner - FULL STOP.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God to salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

How you picture God, is how YOU will become, 2 Corinthians 3:18, 1 John 3:2-3, , 1 John 4:17, 1 Corinthians 13:12.

You picture God as an executioner, you will be an executioner. EGW: " It is a law both of the intellectual and the spiritual nature that by beholding we become changed. The mind gradually adapts itself to the subjects upon which it is allowed to dwell. It becomes assimilated to that which it is accustomed to love and reverence. Man will never rise higher than his standard of purity or goodness or truth. If self is his loftiest ideal, he will never attain to anything more exalted. Rather, he will constantly sink lower and lower. The grace of God alone has power to exalt man. Left to himself, his course must inevitably be downward." {GC 555.1}

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the LORD.

1 John 3:2-3 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 10:43 AM

APL,

It might surprise you, but I do not picture God as an executioner. I also do not picture myself as a mechanic, even though I have done mechanics more than once in my life and will likely have to do more. I don't enjoy it. I'm not a "mechanic" by trade, profession, nor choice. Instead, I am a teacher and church-planter by trade.

This is God's role of "executioner." He is not an executioner by desire, by occupation, nor by habit. This is not His ordinary role. This is why it is called His "strange act."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: dedication

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 01:29 PM

To take God's love to the extreme where He will not punish nor execute justice is simply promoting the modern misconception of love.

So many parents today no longer punish their children because they are told it is unloving. As a result we see a harvest of self-willed, uncooperative kids.

Due to some parents punishing in anger and abusive violence,(which is wrong) it is now to the point where a quick slap on the hands of a child who doesn't understand "don't" is considered wrong.

Thus -- we look at mankind's unjust, self willed vengeance and violence, and inhumanity against others, and attribute that to any idea of God punishing.
But God is perfectly righteous and just, as well as merciful and long suffering. When iniquity reaches a point of no return, God will deliver His people and put a full STOP to wickedness.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 01:54 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
To take God's love to the extreme where He will not punish nor execute justice is simply promoting the modern misconception of love.

So many parents today no longer punish their children because they are told it is unloving. As a result we see a harvest of self-willed, uncooperative kids.

Due to some parents punishing in anger and abusive violence,(which is wrong) it is now to the point where a quick slap on the hands of a child who doesn't understand "don't" is considered wrong.

Thus -- we look at mankind's unjust, self willed vengeance and violence, and inhumanity against others, and attribute that to any idea of God punishing.
But God is perfectly righteous and just, as well as merciful and long suffering. When iniquity reaches a point of no return, God will deliver His people and put a full STOP to wickedness.

Amen! Praise the Lord for someone willing to speak the truth on this issue! Well said.

God bless,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 05:14 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
To take God's love to the extreme where He will not punish nor execute justice is simply promoting the modern misconception of love.

So many parents today no longer punish their children because they are told it is unloving. As a result we see a harvest of self-willed, uncooperative kids.

Due to some parents punishing in anger and abusive violence,(which is wrong) it is now to the point where a quick slap on the hands of a child who doesn't understand "don't" is considered wrong.

Thus -- we look at mankind's unjust, self willed vengeance and violence, and inhumanity against others, and attribute that to any idea of God punishing.
But God is perfectly righteous and just, as well as merciful and long suffering. When iniquity reaches a point of no return, God will deliver His people and put a full STOP to wickedness.
There is a difference with disciplining a child and killing a child. There is no changing a child if you kill them. We are talking about the end. Ellen White is clear, God is not the executioner of the sentence against transgression. What is the sentence? The second death. Do sinner's die the second death? Oh yes! I do not accept's green's interpretation of EGW's statement, that we should not see God as the executioner, and then confirm that fact that he is!

Righteousness cannot be demonstrated through ANY violence, Isaiah 53:9; Hebrews 7:26; Matthew 5:39-48, and in the end all will understand this about God, 2 Corinthians 3:18; Isaiah 60:1-3. And at the end of time on this earth, with all it's violence and corruption, the righteous will give testimony to the truth about God in their own lives, Revelation 18:1; Isaiah 40:9.

God is the subject of investigation. In the end all minds will come to the understanding that the sources of life and death are utterly exclusive in their relative offerings. In other words, neither can give an iota of what the other has to offer. The outcome of this investigation reveals an absolute: “Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer” {MH 113} This verdict serves to secure the eternal allegiance of the righteous and the eternal destiny of all the created inhabitants of the universe.

---Scripture References--------------------------------------

Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Matthew 5:39-48 But I say to you, That you resist not evil: but whoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue you at the law, and take away your coat, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever shall compel you to go a mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him that asks you, and from him that would borrow of you turn not you away. 43 You have heard that it has been said, You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy. 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which spitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love them which love you, what reward have you? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if you salute your brothers only, what do you more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be you therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the LORD.

Isaiah 60:1-3 Arise, shine; for your light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen on you. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise on you, and his glory shall be seen on you. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising.

Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

Isaiah 40:9 O Zion, that bring good tidings, get you up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bring good tidings, lift up your voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say to the cities of Judah, Behold your God!
Posted By: dedication

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 07:04 PM

God is the restorer.
He has emptied heaven to enable our restoration.

However, in order to restore that which cannot be restored must be removed.

And when sin reaches the point of no return, God will put a FULL STOP --END to all sin and those who insist on clinging to sin.

Originally Posted By: EGW
Jesus is about to leave the mercy seat of the heavenly sanctuary, to put on garments of vengeance, and pour out His wrath in judgments upon those who have not responded to the light God has given them. "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil." Ecclesiastes 8:11. Instead of being softened by the patience and long forbearance that the Lord has exercised toward them, those who fear not God and love not the truth, strengthen their hearts in their evil course. But there are limits even to the forbearance of God, and many are exceeding these boundaries. They have overrun the limits of grace, and therefore God must interfere and vindicate His honor. {CET 185.3}

Destruction of the wicked is not an arbitrary decision of God.

Those who chose Christ and salvation have chosen LIFE.
Those who chose sin and reject salvation have chosen DEATH.

But when the wicked seek to reverse that by setting out to kill all God's faithful, God will step in and end their madness.
Both just prior to the second coming, the wicked seek to destroy all God's faithful;
And after the 1000 years the wicked march on God's city with the intent of tearing God Himself from the throne and destroying all His faithful -- conquer the city and re-establish satan's rule.

It is at these two points that God steps in and puts a full stop to their agenda. After the 1000 years the rebellion will have fully shown itself for what it is, and God will cleanse the earth of sin and those who cling to sin. Thus fully restoring not only every person who availed themselves of God's wonderful gift of life, but also restoring the earth to paradise -- beautiful, harmonious, and eternally safe.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 06/30/13 09:32 PM

So God must be a destroyer in order to be a restorer. God it. :-(
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/01/13 01:08 AM

Just returned from Camp Meeting.

So refreshing and a blessing to listen to a young preacher using Scripture to show especially the young people how your concept of God sorts out those bewildering evaluations of quotations and in faith you see your Creator and Redeemer in worship, adoration and praise.

The greatest of the commandments is this:

Mark 12:30
and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Breaking this, the first - the greatest - of all all the commandments results in the greatest "punishment" of all: it breaks the connection with the life giver and results is no life.

With this commandment in your life experience your life becomes a living prayer:

Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/01/13 05:15 PM

Quote:
So God must be a destroyer in order to be a restorer.

APL, what is God's "strange act"?
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/01/13 07:40 PM



Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL, I would urge you not to turn your face from truth. Accept it. Truth will be healing to your soul.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Yes, APL, I have long accepted this truth already that God destroys the wicked.
Green, As I understand, APL does not believe God kills and destroys. You are urging him to accept "truth". This so called "truth" you wish him to accept is that God does kill and destroy.

Do you imagine him saying, Green, you are so right. God is the killer and the destroyer. I realize my thinking and leading others to a loving God who is not the destroyer is a sin. I realize my sin would destroy me at the end, but right before it does, God steps in and destroys me. I feel much better now.

Tell us, how will APL accepting that bring healing to his soul?
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/01/13 07:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
, you will find that God consumes the wicked.
Who killed Saul?
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/01/13 07:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

It might surprise you, but I do not picture God as an executioner. I also do not picture myself as a mechanic, even though I have done mechanics more than once in my life and will likely have to do more. I don't enjoy it. I'm not a "mechanic" by trade, profession, nor choice. Instead, I am a teacher and church-planter by trade.

This is God's role of "executioner." He is not an executioner by desire, by occupation, nor by habit. This is not His ordinary role. This is why it is called His "strange act."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Ok, God is not an executioner because He doesn't desire to be, but He acts as one?

Ummm....?

So, likewise, would you say Hitler was not an executioner, because he didn't like killing people, but only wanted to eliminate certain ones who disagreed with him?
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/01/13 07:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
So God must be a destroyer in order to be a restorer.

APL, what is God's "strange act"?
Do you see God's strange act as His wrath? When is His wrath complete?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/01/13 08:08 PM

God's wrath is against sin.
God's strange act is something God is forced to do, it's something He wouldn't like to do.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/01/13 08:27 PM

Is His strange act His wrath? When is His wrath complete?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/01/13 10:15 PM

If I'm not mistaken, I was asking the question. smile
How do you see it?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/02/13 01:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
So God must be a destroyer in order to be a restorer.

APL, what is God's "strange act"?
As always, if we want to know the truth about God, we look to Jesus. Everything we need to know or indeed can know we learn from the life of Christ. (8T-286)

The answer is in the acted out parable of the fig tree, and so nicely decribed by Ellen White in the book, The Desire of Ages. Read Chapter 64. If you'd like for me to outline it for you, I'd be happy to do so. I'll quote only one paragraph:
Originally Posted By: EGW
Jesus had come to the fig tree hungry, to find food. So He had come to Israel, hungering to find in them the fruits of righteousness. He had lavished on them His gifts, that they might bear fruit for the blessing of the world. Every opportunity and privilege had been granted them, and in return He sought their sympathy and co-operation in His work of grace. He longed to see in them self-sacrifice and compassion, zeal for God, and a deep yearning of soul for the salvation of their fellow men. Had they kept the law of God, they would have done the same unselfish work that Christ did. But love to God and man was eclipsed by pride and self-sufficiency. They brought ruin upon themselves by refusing to minister to others. The treasures of truth which God had committed to them, they did not give to the world. In the barren tree they might read both their sin and its punishment. Withered beneath the Saviour's curse, standing forth sere and blasted, dried up by the roots, the fig tree showed what the Jewish people would be when the grace of God was removed from them. Refusing to impart blessing, they would no longer receive it. "O Israel," the Lord says, "thou hast destroyed thyself." Hosea 13:9. {DA 583.2}
God's strange act is when He removes His grace, leaves the sinner to themselves (GC36). The sinner will die in their sins, not as a direct action of God, but as the natural consequences of sin. (GC35,36).
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/02/13 06:01 AM

So, to you, the "strange act" of God is not something future, but something He has already done several times during earth's history?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/02/13 06:42 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
So God must be a destroyer in order to be a restorer.

APL, what is God's "strange act"?
As always, if we want to know the truth about God, we look to Jesus. Everything we need to know or indeed can know we learn from the life of Christ. (8T-286)

The answer is in the acted out parable of the fig tree, and so nicely decribed by Ellen White in the book, The Desire of Ages. Read Chapter 64. If you'd like for me to outline it for you, I'd be happy to do so. I'll quote only one paragraph:
Originally Posted By: EGW
Jesus had come to the fig tree hungry, to find food. So He had come to Israel, hungering to find in them the fruits of righteousness. He had lavished on them His gifts, that they might bear fruit for the blessing of the world. Every opportunity and privilege had been granted them, and in return He sought their sympathy and co-operation in His work of grace. He longed to see in them self-sacrifice and compassion, zeal for God, and a deep yearning of soul for the salvation of their fellow men. Had they kept the law of God, they would have done the same unselfish work that Christ did. But love to God and man was eclipsed by pride and self-sufficiency. They brought ruin upon themselves by refusing to minister to others. The treasures of truth which God had committed to them, they did not give to the world. In the barren tree they might read both their sin and its punishment. Withered beneath the Saviour's curse, standing forth sere and blasted, dried up by the roots, the fig tree showed what the Jewish people would be when the grace of God was removed from them. Refusing to impart blessing, they would no longer receive it. "O Israel," the Lord says, "thou hast destroyed thyself." Hosea 13:9. {DA 583.2}
God's strange act is when He removes His grace, leaves the sinner to themselves (GC36). The sinner will die in their sins, not as a direct action of God, but as the natural consequences of sin. (GC35,36).

APL,

The passage you quoted from the Desire of Ages makes not mention of God's "strange act." The Bible and Ellen White both speak of it. To what is it applied? It is applied to the act of punishment of the wicked; to judgment. Read the following passage from The Great Controversy for more enlightenment on the matter.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}
When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out. The plagues upon Egypt when God was about to deliver Israel were similar in character to those
628
more terrible and extensive judgments which are to fall upon the world just before the final deliverance of God's people. Says the revelator, in describing those terrific scourges: "There fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image." The sea "became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." And "the rivers and fountains of waters . . . became blood." Terrible as these inflictions are, God's justice stands fully vindicated. The angel of God declares: "Thou art righteous, O Lord, . . . because Thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and Thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy." Revelation 16:2-6. By condemning the people of God to death, they have as truly incurred the guilt of their blood as if it had been shed by their hands. In like manner Christ declared the Jews of His time guilty of all the blood of holy men which had been shed since the days of Abel; for they possessed the same spirit and were seeking to do the same work with these murderers of the prophets. {GC 627.3}
In the plague that follows, power is given to the sun "to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat." Verses 8, 9. The prophets thus describe the condition of the earth at this fearful time: "The land mourneth; . . . because the harvest of the field is perished. . . . All the trees of the field are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men." "The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate. . . . How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture. . . . The rivers of water are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness." "The songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord God: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence." Joel 1:10-12, 17-20; Amos 8:3. {GC 628.1}
These plagues are not universal, or the inhabitants of the earth would be wholly cut off. Yet they will be the most
629
awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals. All the judgments upon men, prior to the close of probation, have been mingled with mercy. The pleading blood of Christ has shielded the sinner from receiving the full measure of his guilt; but in the final judgment, wrath is poured out unmixed with mercy. {GC 628.2}
In that day, multitudes will desire the shelter of God's mercy which they have so long despised. "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: and they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it." Amos 8:11, 12. {GC 629.1}


There are a number of noteworthy points Mrs. White makes. Here are some of them:

  • "To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act."
  • "Yet He will 'by no means clear the guilty.' 'The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked.'"
  • "By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law."
  • "The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice."
  • "When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out."

The above points tell us when, how, upon whom, by whom, and why God will execute His "strange act." They also tell us something about what the act entails. It is clear that this act does not occur before probation's close. It could not, therefore, have yet occurred in earth's past history. It is yet future--unless you believe probation has already closed and Christ has ceased interceding for us already.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/02/13 07:10 AM

Does God cause the last plagues? No. They are caused by Satan. But note how EGW talks about them from your quote:
Originally Posted By: EGW
"Yet they will be the most awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals. All the judgments upon men, prior to the close of probation, have been mingled with mercy. The pleading blood of Christ has shielded the sinner from receiving the full measure of his guilt; but in the final judgment, wrath is poured out unmixed with mercy. {GC 628.2}"
Note also that they are not mixed with mercy! This is God's withdrawl of his protection, (Revelation 7:1-3), this is His strange act. This is EXACTLY the same thing I quoted from Desire of Ages which you claim does not talk of God's strange act, "grace of God was removed from them". Same thing. God's wrath is as described in Romans 1. It is a consistent picture of God.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/02/13 07:12 AM

If you want to know what God is really like, LOOK AT JESUS. Everything we need to know and indeed can know about God we learn from Jesus. God is EXACTLY like Jesus. (see 8T286)
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/02/13 08:01 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Does God cause the last plagues? No. They are caused by Satan.

Where did you get this information?

Please provide the quotes.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/02/13 08:33 AM

Satan was trying his every art to hold them where they were, until the sealing was past, until the covering was drawn over God's people, and they left without a shelter from the burning wrath of God, in the seven last plagues. God has begun to draw this covering over His people, and it will soon be drawn over all who are to have a shelter in the day of slaughter. God will work in power for His people; and Satan will be permitted to work also. {EW 44.2}


Rev_7:1-3 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to damage earth and sea, 3 saying, "Do not damage the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have marked the servants of our God with a seal on their foreheads."

The restraining Spirit of God is even now being withdrawn from the world. Hurricanes, storms, tempests, fire and flood, disasters by sea and land, follow each other in quick succession. Science seeks to explain all these. The signs thickening around us, telling of the near approach of the Son of God, are attributed to any other than the true cause. Men cannot discern the sentinel angels restraining the four winds that they shall not blow until the servants of God are sealed; but when God shall bid His angels loose the winds, there will be such a scene of strife as no pen can picture. {6T 408.1}

God bears long with the rebellion and apostasy of His subjects. Even when His mercy is despised and His love scorned and derided, He bears with men until the last resource for leading them to repentance is exhausted. But there are limits to His forbearance. From those who to the end continue in obstinate rebellion, He removes His protecting care. Providence will no longer shield them from Satan's power. They will have sinned away their day of grace. {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 7}

God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 8}

As Jesus moved out of the most holy place, I heard the tinkling of the bells upon His garment; and as He left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man and an offended God. While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when He stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed and Satan had entire control of the finally impenitent. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. In that fearful time, after the close of Jesus' mediation, the saints were living in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. {EW 280.2}

The destruction of Jerusalem is a preview of the last plagues, which will be much worse. Is God the acting subject in the destruction of Jerusalem? Nope. It was His withdrawl of mercy which unleashed the sinful people to do what they did. The Spirit of God, persistently rejected and abused, had at last no choice but to leave the people
to themselves. With nothing to restrain the fierce passions of the Jews, they rebelled so treacherously and seditiously against the Romans that they stirred up the worst spirit of retaliation in their enemies.

"When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. Though under the control of Satan, and swayed by the most horrible and malignant passions, they still regarded themselves as the chosen of God. {GC 615.1}

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}

God's withdrawl of His protection, His pouring out of wrath, unleashes Satan, and it is Satan which will have the entire control of the wicked, and Satan brings on the final trouble.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/02/13 11:53 AM

None of your statements, APL, support the concept of Satan causing the seven last plagues, nor being in charge or in direction of them. Let's look at these statements one at a time.

Originally Posted By: APL
Satan was trying his every art to hold them where they were, until the sealing was past, until the covering was drawn over God's people, and they left without a shelter from the burning wrath of God, in the seven last plagues. God has begun to draw this covering over His people, and it will soon be drawn over all who are to have a shelter in the day of slaughter. God will work in power for His people; and Satan will be permitted to work also. {EW 44.2}

This statement says nothing about Satan causing the seven last plagues. It indicates, instead, that God is behind them. Satan is mentioned as trying to keep people on his side, until probation has closed. Then we are told that once this happens, a "covering" is placed over God's people (to protect them) while those who were still on Satan's side are "left without a shelter from the burning wrath of God, in the seven last plagues." This indicates that the plagues are from God's wrath.


Originally Posted By: APL
Rev_7:1-3 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to damage earth and sea, 3 saying, "Do not damage the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have marked the servants of our God with a seal on their foreheads."

This passage makes no mention at all of the seven last plagues. It speaks to the "four winds of the earth," which is a separate subject entirely. Those are the winds of strife not of plagues, and the symbolic language which follows is not a part of the message regarding the seven last plagues, but rather a message of that which takes place just before them. Remember, the seven last plagues fall AFTER probation has closed, and probation has not yet closed if the servants of God are not yet sealed, an action still taking place at the time period referred to in this text.

Originally Posted By: APL
The restraining Spirit of God is even now being withdrawn from the world. Hurricanes, storms, tempests, fire and flood, disasters by sea and land, follow each other in quick succession. Science seeks to explain all these. The signs thickening around us, telling of the near approach of the Son of God, are attributed to any other than the true cause. Men cannot discern the sentinel angels restraining the four winds that they shall not blow until the servants of God are sealed; but when God shall bid His angels loose the winds, there will be such a scene of strife as no pen can picture. {6T 408.1}

Again, "even now" refers to a time period before the close of probation. Those hurricanes, storms, etc. which occur before probation's close are not, by definition, part of the seven last plagues. Even such "strife" as is mentioned here, should it occur before the close of probation, would not be part of the "plagues" to come later.

Originally Posted By: APL
God bears long with the rebellion and apostasy of His subjects. Even when His mercy is despised and His love scorned and derided, He bears with men until the last resource for leading them to repentance is exhausted. But there are limits to His forbearance. From those who to the end continue in obstinate rebellion, He removes His protecting care. Providence will no longer shield them from Satan's power. They will have sinned away their day of grace. {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 7}

What is the context of this statement? There is no mention here whatsoever of the seven last plagues, nor of their source. If anything, this passage indicates that God is behind a withdrawal of His protection during our probationary time. It speaks of "repentance." It won't be possible to repent once probation has closed, and there will be no mercy from God at such a point either.

Originally Posted By: APL
God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 8}

There is no mention of the plagues here either. What is the context? What is the time period under discussion here? If it is the plagues, can you support this?

Originally Posted By: APL
As Jesus moved out of the most holy place, I heard the tinkling of the bells upon His garment; and as He left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man and an offended God. While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when He stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed and Satan had entire control of the finally impenitent. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. In that fearful time, after the close of Jesus' mediation, the saints were living in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. {EW 280.2}

This interesting statement speaks of both God's restraint upon Satan AND His "fury." There is nothing here that limits God's fury. There is nothing here to say that God only withdraws His protections. When plagues are "poured out," it doesn't sound like anything being "withdrawn." There is an action here--a Godly one. This statement speaks of "an offended God" and it speaks of "the wrath of God" breaking "with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner...."

Originally Posted By: APL
The destruction of Jerusalem is a preview of the last plagues, which will be much worse. Is God the acting subject in the destruction of Jerusalem? Nope. It was His withdrawl of mercy which unleashed the sinful people to do what they did. The Spirit of God, persistently rejected and abused, had at last no choice but to leave the people
to themselves. With nothing to restrain the fierce passions of the Jews, they rebelled so treacherously and seditiously against the Romans that they stirred up the worst spirit of retaliation in their enemies.

Why are not the plagues of Egypt the "preview of the last plagues"? What "plague" fell upon Jerusalem? Judgment, yes. Plague? No.

Originally Posted By: APL
"When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. Though under the control of Satan, and swayed by the most horrible and malignant passions, they still regarded themselves as the chosen of God. {GC 615.1}

Again, this statement does not mention plagues. An allusion is made to probation's close, but the focus is nowhere near that of the plagues.

Originally Posted By: APL
When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}

This speaks of Satan being given free reign over the passions of sinful men after probation's close. This does not, however, refer to the plagues which are God's part in the matter. Satan works and God works. Satan causes "trouble." But Mrs. White does not say he causes the plagues.


Originally Posted By: APL
God's withdrawl of His protection, His pouring out of wrath, unleashes Satan, and it is Satan which will have the entire control of the wicked, and Satan brings on the final trouble.

Yes, Satan will have control over the wicked. But he doesn't have control over the righteous, nor does he have control over the plagues.

I have yet to see a statement that supports Satan being the one causing the seven last plagues.

Surely, you must have at least one good statement to support your belief, right? Bring it out for all of us to see.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/02/13 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: green
I have yet to see a statement that supports Satan being the one causing the seven last plagues.

Surely, you must have at least one good statement to support your belief, right? Bring it out for all of us to see.
When do the plagues happen? When God's mercy ceases, when God withdraws his protection, when the angels are told to "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy". Is it God that is destroying? NO. Satan. JN Andrews, "Before the four winds are loosed, the servants of God are sealed. The seal is placed upon them, that the destroying angel may not cut them down.". Satan is the destroying angel, the active agent in the plagues.

The 7 last plagues are the wrath of God. The wrath of God is His withdrawl of his mercy, the letting go of sinners, the removing of His protection. This is His wrath. When this happens, destruction comes. Everything we can know about God is revealed by His Son, Jesus. If God is the active agent that tortures the inpenitant in the plagues, please show me this from His life? You can't, because this is not what God is like. It is a pagan idea that has God torturing His creation.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/02/13 08:44 PM

Quote:
In these closing events two distinct views are given to John. Before the Saviour leaves the temple, seven angels are seen standing before the altar. To them are given seven vials containing the unmingled wrath of God. The elements of the earth are under the control of mighty angels, and although Satan, "the prince of the power of the air," has had partial control of these mighty forces, yet the power of God has held them in check; else destruction would have come, and man would have been destroyed. As Christ rises to leave the temple, these seven commanding angels stand awaiting the command of Jehovah. {1905 SNH, SSP 268.1}
...
When man says by word and act that he will not obey, and those who do obey are gathered into little companies overshadowed by the glory of God, then the restraint is removed, and man feels the effect of a life without Christ. Having waited to the extreme limit of time given for mercy, God calls at last from the temple to the seven angels having the seven vials full of the wrath of Jehovah, and bids them go forth. The seven angels come to the earth one at a time; that is, God's overruling Spirit is withdrawn from one element after another, until utter destruction results. Her Plagues [shall] come in one day, the prophet says, or one year of literal time. Margin {1905 SNH, SSP 274.2}

If our views of what happens to the wicked do not jive with what we know about God from the life of His son on earth, then that view must be rejected. Haskell is just like the other founders of our faith, who understood the character of our God.

What is God's wrath? His giving up, letting go, handing over. (Romans 1)

When the seven angels with the seven vials full of the wrath of God are poured out, what really happens? God's overruling Spirit is withdrawn, and then utter destruction results.

Is God the acting subject? NO. God is removing His protection from the world. Only the saints will still have His protections. The universe will see what Satan's rule would really produce! And it is awful. Sin only produces violence and death. Satan is the destroyer. God is the restorer.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/02/13 09:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
If I'm not mistaken, I was asking the question. smile
How do you see it?
Isn't there somewhere in Revelation something about His wrath being complete in the plagues?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/02/13 10:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Does God cause the last plagues? No. They are caused by Satan.

Where did you get this information?

Please provide the quotes.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Do you believe that God is the acting subject in the plagues?
Do you believe that God is the one inflicting pain and hardship on sinners?
If so, for what purpose?
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/03/13 02:19 AM

I have been following these discussions and I see clearly that living by the crumbs that fall off the table in form of short quotations provides a life in spiritual poverty.

It is only when you study the Great Controversy in pictures from Creation to the fulfillment in Revelation you see the total picture and discern the meaning of the last three words in the book The Great Controversy.

With that background you enter the final stages of this great conflict in Revelation. You see how Satan has held even Christians in his grip with his pagan dualism and other tricks to get the blame for sin off his neck. By hanging your soul on spikes of quotations instead of on Jesus Christ he keeps your mind incarcerated in his darkness until after the Millennium.

Read the Word of God as a whole and not in minute bits, and let the Holy Spirit lead you to worship and honor your Creator and see His true love and dealing with mankind through final events of the history of this world.

It takes patience, and here is the patience of the saints, to go through all the prophetic pictures in Revelation to learn how God deals with sin, and how Satan extols with his mark of the beast. See the importance of worship, of Sabbath and Sunday and the plagues. It is an awesome picture. Thank God for giving it to us in Revelation, revealing hos Satan succumbs to his own pride together with his fallen kingdom.

Therefore we will live a life, eternal life, in gratitude to our Creator and Redeemer.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/03/13 03:27 AM

Quote:
Isn't there somewhere in Revelation something about His wrath being complete in the plagues?

Rev. 15:1. But the word there is thumos.
In Revelation there are other passages which speak of the wrath of God in connection with Christ's coming (after the plagues) - like Rev. 6:16, 17. Also in connection with the judgment/lake of fire - Rev. 14:10 (after the millennium). The word used in these passages is orge.
The wrath of God, for APL, is primarily related to sinners; to me, it's primarily related to sin.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/03/13 04:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Isn't there somewhere in Revelation something about His wrath being complete in the plagues?

Rev. 15:1. But the word there is thumos.
In Revelation there are other passages which speak of the wrath of God in connection with Christ's coming (after the plagues) - like Rev. 6:16, 17. Also in connection with the judgment/lake of fire - Rev. 14:10 (after the millennium). The word used in these passages is orge.
The wrath of God, for APL, is primarily related to sinners; to me, it's primarily related to sin.
Rosangela - - You do not understand... God's wrath is not like our wrath. His wrath is His withdrawal, the removal of Himself. Not to punish, but because He has been rejected. But once He is removed, then there is nothing to check the effects of sin, and those that have clung to their sin will feel the punishment of sin! I have repeatedly said that God is not against sinners, only to have Green pop in and say that Hitler needs to be punished much more than he has and that the resurrection of the wicked is primarily about punishment. I understand sin to be something real and physical. I'm not sure what you think sin is, or how it is that sin not only affects humans, but all life. I don't recall you ever answering the question of how sin causes all life to suffer together. Do you have an answer to that question? Yes, sin is transgression of the law. What law? And how is it transgressed?
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/03/13 06:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Isn't there somewhere in Revelation something about His wrath being complete in the plagues?

Rev. 15:1. But the word there is thumos.
In Revelation there are other passages which speak of the wrath of God in connection with Christ's coming (after the plagues) - like Rev. 6:16, 17. Also in connection with the judgment/lake of fire - Rev. 14:10 (after the millennium). The word used in these passages is orge.
The wrath of God, for APL, is primarily related to sinners; to me, it's primarily related to sin.
Would you be suggesting there is a wrath of completeness for sin and then another complete wrath of completeness for sinners?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/03/13 07:21 PM

Quote:
Rosangela - - You do not understand... God's wrath is not like our wrath. His wrath is His withdrawal, the removal of Himself.

APL,
This is your (or Maxwell's) definition. Anyway, it's related to the sinner - God's withdrawal from the sinner.
But the definition given by the Bible and by EGW is that God's wrath is the manifestation of His displeasure against sin.

Quote:
I'm not sure what you think sin is, or how it is that sin not only affects humans, but all life. I don't recall you ever answering the question of how sin causes all life to suffer together. Do you have an answer to that question?

I don't see any difficulty in that question. What made man and animals immortal before sin? Was it something in the DNA? If it was, man would need no tree of life for his life to be preserved. God's power preserved all creation, and added to this was the fact that there were no disease-causing agents or processes. When Satan assumed the control of earth, he began to alter nature.

He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows.… He will bring disease and disaster (GC 589).

Satan is working in the atmosphere; he is poisoning the atmosphere (2SM 51).

Did he employ genetic manipulation to degenerate nature? This isn't impossible, but more probably there occurred bad mutations and genetic selections, which may have occurred naturally and/or with human help. Take a look here.

But there is no "sin" in animals and plants, or in their DNA. There is sin only in man, and in his mind.

Quote:
Yes, sin is transgression of the law. What law? And how is it transgressed?

It's the transgression of the moral law, and it has to do with the mind, not with the body.

The law of God is as sacred as God Himself. It is a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, the expression of divine love and wisdom. The harmony of creation depends upon the perfect conformity of all beings, of everything, animate and inanimate, to the law of the Creator. God has ordained laws for the government, not only of living beings, but of all the operations of nature. Everything is under fixed laws, which cannot be disregarded. But while everything in nature is governed by natural laws, man alone, of all that inhabits the earth, is amenable to moral law. To man, the crowning work of creation, God has given power to understand His requirements, to comprehend the justice and beneficence of His law, and its sacred claims upon him; and of man unswerving obedience is required (PP 52).
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/03/13 10:05 PM

Rosangela, consider:

Gal_3:19 Why then serves the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

What law was added?

This is your (or Maxwell's) definition. Anyway, it's related to the sinner - God's withdrawal from the sinner.
But the definition given by the Bible and by EGW is that God's wrath is the manifestation of His displeasure against sin.


Yes, but what is sin? By your defintion, sin is inmaterial.

I don't see any difficulty in that question. What made man and animals immortal before sin? Was it something in the DNA? If it was, man would need no tree of life for his life to be preserved. God's power preserved all creation, and added to this was the fact that there were no disease-causing agents or processes. When Satan assumed the control of earth, he began to alter nature.

Alter nature and man?

He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows.… He will bring disease and disaster (GC 589).

Yes he will use the elements! Do you believe that it is Satan as the active agent in the last plagues, or it is God?

Are you saying that sin does not cause disease and disaster? EGW: "The earth also was cursed because of their sin." {CD 145.2} How did that happen?

Satan is working in the atmosphere; he is poisoning the atmosphere (2SM 51).

Even the air, upon which their life depended, bore the seeds of death. {Ed 26.3}

What causes death? SIN!!!

Man is God's property, and the ruin that has been made of the living habitation, the suffering caused by the seeds of death sown in the human system, are an offense to God.-- Letter 73, 1896. – Medical Ministry, page 229. {Te 87.5}


Did he employ genetic manipulation to degenerate nature? This isn't impossible, but more probably there occurred bad mutations and genetic selections, which may have occurred naturally and/or with human help. Take a look here

The article claims that this domestication is evolution at work. Do you believe that? The article you posted discussed briefly the Russian tame fox exeriment. Are you familiar with it? Was there a genetic change in the foxes? What kind of genetic change? Did the DNA code change? NO. What changed was an epigenetic change. What is interesting is that as the foxes became more domesticated, they also looked a lot more like dogs. But the DNA code did not change, it was all epigenetic. Darwin's finches also did not experience genetic code change, but epigenetic changes, which are reversible.

What is the major cause of mutations? Copy errors? Or added DNA in the form of mobile genetic elements. Viruses are an example that everyone should recognize. Did God create viruses? Can you name one good thing that viruses do? There are other mobile genetic elements. Did God create those? Do you know that mobile genetic elements are probably the underlying cause of all disease? ALL life has been infected by mobile genetic elements. And "infection" is a good term.

But there is no "sin" in animals and plants, or in their DNA. There is sin only in man, and in his mind.

There is no sin in animals or plants? Do plants and animals die? YES. WHY? SIN!

There is a divinely appointed connection between sin and disease. No physician can practice for a month without seeing this illustrated. He may ignore the fact; his mind may be so occupied with other matters that his attention will not be called to it; but if he will be observing and honest, he cannot help acknowledging that sin and disease bear to each other the relationship of cause and effect. Did you read that? Sin IS the cause, and disease IS the effect. Do animals and planets experience disease? YES. Is sin only in the mind of man? GC569 - Satan is constantly misrepresenting the nature of sin...

Q:Yes, sin is transgression of the law. What law? And how is it transgressed?

It's the transgression of the moral law, and it has to do with the mind, not with the body.

Rosangela, consider:

Gal_3:19 Why then serves the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

What law was added?

The law of God is as sacred as God Himself. It is a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, the expression of divine love and wisdom. The harmony of creation depends upon the perfect conformity of all beings, of everything, animate and inanimate, to the law of the Creator. God has ordained laws for the government, not only of living beings, but of all the operations of nature. Everything is under fixed laws, which cannot be disregarded. But while everything in nature is governed by natural laws, man alone, of all that inhabits the earth, is amenable to moral law. To man, the crowning work of creation, God has given power to understand His requirements, to comprehend the justice and beneficence of His law, and its sacred claims upon him; and of man unswerving obedience is required (PP 52)

God's law is written by His own finger upon every nerve, every muscle, every faculty which has been entrusted to man. {SpM 40.6}
How is God's law WRITTEN? Where is it stored?

Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. {COL 331.1} What gives us hereditary tendencies?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/04/13 02:00 AM

Originally Posted By: rosangela
But there is no "sin" in animals and plants, or in their DNA. There is sin only in man, and in his mind.

SEE THIS:
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/04/13 02:31 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Isn't there somewhere in Revelation something about His wrath being complete in the plagues?

Rev. 15:1. But the word there is thumos.
In Revelation there are other passages which speak of the wrath of God in connection with Christ's coming (after the plagues) - like Rev. 6:16, 17. Also in connection with the judgment/lake of fire - Rev. 14:10 (after the millennium). The word used in these passages is orge.
The wrath of God, for APL, is primarily related to sinners; to me, it's primarily related to sin.
Rosangela - - You do not understand... God's wrath is not like our wrath. His wrath is His withdrawal, the removal of Himself. Not to punish, but because He has been rejected. But once He is removed, then there is nothing to check the effects of sin, and those that have clung to their sin will feel the punishment of sin! I have repeatedly said that God is not against sinners, only to have Green pop in and say that Hitler needs to be punished much more than he has and that the resurrection of the wicked is primarily about punishment. I understand sin to be something real and physical. I'm not sure what you think sin is, or how it is that sin not only affects humans, but all life. I don't recall you ever answering the question of how sin causes all life to suffer together. Do you have an answer to that question? Yes, sin is transgression of the law. What law? And how is it transgressed?


Back in 1956-1958 I was a student of Dr. Roland Loasby who was teaching Biblical languages at the SDA seminary. While spending 25 years as a missionary in India he had learned not only Sanskrit but several other languages as a background for the development of Indo-European languages. In his own devotions he read the Bible in the original languages and he preached great sermons on the original meaning of Scripture, and the glorious picture of God as described by inspiration. In his estimation the KJV was a poor translation because many of the English words lacked the total picture of divinity including the feelings of God.

Loasby tried to teach his students how to preach about God through a greater knowledge of original languages. Other teachers have tried to do that too, but their efforts have in several instances been in vain, thwarted by people who refused to be inspired by the real Creator as pictured in Scripture.

I regret where I have have failed too, but these discussions help me regain my consciousness of the greatness of God as seen in Scripture.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/04/13 06:23 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: rosangela
But there is no "sin" in animals and plants, or in their DNA. There is sin only in man, and in his mind.
SEE THIS

APL,

Rosangela is right. We are not "born sin," we are "born sinners." There is a drastic difference between the two. The only human who was "made to be sin" was Jesus. He is the Lamb, upon which the sins of the world were placed, beginning in Gethsemane, and these sins separated Him from the presence of the Father, causing His death.

People who "sin" are "sinners." We are not sin itself.

I am not a teaching. I am a teacher. My doctor is not "health," he is a "healer."

If we were "sin" itself, the entire plan of redemption would need to change to accommodate this new condition. We would have to be physically recreated now in order to shed this "sin" from our beings. Obviously, this cannot and does not happen to us now.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/04/13 08:20 AM

So, animals, red in tooth and claw, they are not "sinful"?

Originally Posted By: green
The only human who was "made to be sin" was Jesus.
So Jesus was sin, but we are not?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/04/13 12:01 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
So, animals, red in tooth and claw, they are not "sinful"?

Originally Posted By: green
The only human who was "made to be sin" was Jesus.
So Jesus was sin, but we are not?


No, APL, animals are not "sinful." However, my statement had nothing to do with animals. I said "human" and you thought of "animal." Interesting reasoning. Since you desire to speak of animals, let's look at them for a moment. Here's some facts:

Ellen White mentions sinful people (e.g. "sinful humanity" or "sinful man") in well over 250 quotes per the EGW CD.

Ellen White mentions sinful animals (e.g. "sinful beasts" or "sinful animals") ZERO times.

To the contrary, Mrs. White declares the animals to be "innocent."

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God did not have as great delight in their shedding the blood of beasts as in obedience to his commandments. The offerings were divinely appointed to remind sinful man that sin brought death, and that the blood of the innocent beast could atone for the guilt of the transgressor, by virtue of the great sacrifice yet to be offered. God required of his people obedience rather than sacrifice. All the riches of the earth were his. The cattle upon a thousand hills belonged to him. He did not require the spoil of a corrupt people, upon whom his curse rested, even to their utter extinction, to be presented to him to prefigure the holy Saviour, as a lamb without blemish. {4aSG 75.5}


This makes it abundantly clear that the beasts were not "sinful." An atonement for sin can only be made by one who is innocent. Had Jesus been sinful, He could never have made an atonement for us. The beasts are also innocent, and therefore were used to typify Christ's then-future sacrifice, and the atonement made by the blood of the innocent animal was accepted in faith that one day the true Lamb of God would make the necessary atonement for our sins.

Again, we see this taught in the following quote.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The sins of the people were transferred in figure to the officiating priest, who was a mediator for the people. The priest could not himself become an offering for sin, and make an atonement with his life, for he was also a sinner. Therefore, instead of suffering death himself, he killed a lamb without blemish; the penalty of sin was transferred to the innocent beast, which thus became his immediate substitute, and typified the perfect offering of Jesus Christ. Through the blood of this victim, man looked forward by faith to the blood of Christ which would atone for the sins of the world. {1SM 230.2}


The beast is "innocent." Jesus was also innocent and a "perfect offering." The sins were "transferred in figure" to the priest, who acted as a mediator for the people, representing God's place in the plan of redemption. The priest "transferred" the penalty of sin to the animal, just as it would later be "transferred" to Christ.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The cross teaches the lesson of self-sacrifice. As by faith men behold the royal Sufferer, the conviction comes to them that the sure result of sin is death. Let the believing soul stand beside the cross of Calvary, and with a heart swelling with grateful love, cry, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world!" Behold Him! Say it with heart and soul and voice. Induce the sinner to look. When his gaze is arrested, amazed at such wonderful condescension, he steps nearer, and learns of the Saviour the lesson all must learn,--the lesson of meekness and lowliness. The believing soul sees Jesus as He is, and beholding, is changed into His image. The experience of those who are truly converted testifies that God is the author of eternal salvation, and that the grace of Christ is wisdom and power. {RH, January 7, 1902 par. 11}


Jesus suffered in our place, and died in our place. If we accept His pardon, we may be free of sin and its wage.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
..."He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Corinthians 5:21. Christ crucified for our sins; Christ risen from the dead; Christ ascended on high as our intercessor--this is the science of salvation that we need to learn and to teach. This is to be the burden of our work. {CT 22.2}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/04/13 05:20 PM

Originally Posted By: green
No, APL, animals are not "sinful." However, my statement had nothing to do with animals. I said "human" and you thought of "animal." Interesting reasoning. Since you desire to speak of animals, let's look at them for a moment. Here's some facts:

Ellen White mentions sinful people (e.g. "sinful humanity" or "sinful man") in well over 250 quotes per the EGW CD.

Ellen White mentions sinful animals (e.g. "sinful beasts" or "sinful animals") ZERO times.

To the contrary, Mrs. White declares the animals to be "innocent." 
ZERO times? Really?
Originally Posted By: EGW
This earth has been cursed because of sin, and in these last days vermin of every kind will multiply. These pests must be killed, or they will annoy and torment and even kill us, and destroy the work of our hands and the fruit of our land. In places there are ants which entirely destroy the woodwork of houses. Should not these be destroyed? Fruit trees must be sprayed, that the insects which would spoil the fruit may be killed. God has given us a part to act, and this part we must act with faithfulness. Then we can leave the rest with the Lord. {2MR 178.3}

God has given no man the message, Kill not ant or flea or moth. Troublesome and harmful insects and reptiles we must guard against and destroy, to preserve ourselves and our possessions from harm. And even if we do our best to exterminate these pests, they will still multiply.--Ms 70, 1901, pp. 9, 10. Released 1961. {2MR 178.4}

The sanctuary service was a type. The antitype is the real deal. The transfer of sin to Christ was not "in figure". It was real. He literally bore our sin in His body. 1Pe_2:24
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/04/13 06:31 PM

APL,

Your quote there never called the animals sinful. Still ZERO.

Regarding the "transfer of sin to Christ," your text is just as invalid there. What does it mean that He "bore our sins in his own body"? Look at the following statement.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
...What a price has been paid for us! Behold the cross, and the Victim uplifted upon it. Look at those hands, pierced with the cruel nails. Look at His feet, fastened with spikes to the tree. Christ bore our sins in His own body. That suffering, that agony, is the price of your redemption. The word of command was given: "Deliver them from going down to perish eternally. I have found a ransom." {6T 479.2}


In other words, He was pierced by our sins.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/04/13 09:06 PM

And your quotes answer the question of how Christ bore our sins in his body how?

Yes, His hands were pierced, but did Christ die of crucifixion? NO. And the piercing of His side proved that! Sin killed Christ. Christ was "made to be sin". 2 Corinthians 5:21.

How did the Adventist pioneers view the topic? NOTE TO GREEN - EJW is not Ellen White. It is EJ Waggoner. I don't want you to be confused.
Originally Posted By: EJW
"The Editor's Private Corner. Compassed with Infirmity" The Present Truth 19, 6.

E. J. Waggoner

"As a student of the Lord's word, and very desirous to ascertain the truth upon all essential points of Christian faith, I should be glad of your reasons for applying Hebrews 5:2 to our Saviour. I have always understood the text to teach that the Jewish priest, while called of God to offer an offering for sins on behalf of the worshippers, had likewise to offer for himself a similar offering; and the words in Hebrews 5:3, 'by reason hereof he ought' are based upon the fact stated in Hebrews 5:2, that like the ones he ministers for, he himself is compassed with infirmity (imperfection). Our High Priest did not in any way partake of the fallen human nature, like the Jewish priests. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh, but not in sinful flesh, or flesh full of sins. My real thought is, 'that the Word (Logos) was made flesh' before sin entered, or otherwise how could He have been a ransom price for Adam, and the race condemned in him?" {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 84.1}

Your question opens up the heart of the Gospel; but although many pages would not suffice to give an exhaustive statement, a very little consideration of the word will make it plain. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 84.2}

If we take up the last part of your question first, we shall get at it in the most logical manner. Your "real thought" that the Word was made flesh before sin entered, is correct; for even as it was by the Word of the Lord that the heavens were made, so it was by that same Word, that man was brought into being. The Word that was made flesh, is the word that was in the beginning with God, and was God, without which not one thing was made. The perfect man is the man who shares the fulness which is bestowed freely upon all without God man is incomplete; it takes God in man to make a whole man. Everybody will see this who recognises the identity of the words, wholeness, and holiness. A holy man is simply a whole man, a man who is made complete in Christ. Adam was a complete, perfect man; because, in him the Word of life that was from the beginning, was fully manifested. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 84.3}

But Adam fell, he deliberately cast off his allegiance to God; yet God did not forsake him, the Word still dwelt among men, although not in its fulness of grace and truth, because held down in unrighteousness. Thus it is that the word of truth is the Gospel of our salvation. You ask how the Word could have been a ransom price for Adam and the race condemned in him, if is were not made flesh before sin entered? I ask how it could have been a ransom for the race if it had not remained among men after sin entered? The love of God toward men is shown in that He has not forsaken us in our fallen condition. If it were not so, we should not be alive to tell the tale. He is our life. He who would raise fallen man, must come where he is. He is made what we are, in order that we may be made what He is. He comes into us, suffering the death which He did not deserve, in order that we may enjoy the life that we did not deserve. And this He does, not arbitrarily, but because from the very fact of our existence He is one with us. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 84.4}

Your statement that our High Priest did not in any way partake of the fallen human nature, like the Jewish priest, is an unsupported assertion, and contrary to the Scripture. Read the words of the Lord to Moses: "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and will put My words in His mouth; and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deuteronomy 18:18. So we read the words of the Lord in Psalms 89:19; "I have laid help upon One that is mighty; I have exalted One chosen out of the people." Now mark well, this does not say that Jesus was sinful. His everlasting glory is, that from the height of heaven He stooped and came down and took upon Himself man's sinfulness, and yet remained sinless. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 84.5}

Read the testimony in Isaiah 53:4; Isaiah 53:6 : "He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:" or, as quoted in Matthew 8:17, "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." "The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all," or, as given in the margin, "has made the iniquity of us all to meet on Him." This is not a mere figure of speech; it is a statement of an actual fact, a reality. He is the Lamb of God who bears the sin of the world. John 1:29 (margin). The sin of the world is the sin that is common in the world. He had it all on Him in fullest measure, yet never once did He yield to it in the slightest degree. This is our hope, our victory; it is our only hope, and the only basis on which we can have any hope. For if there were a gulf between Him and us, if He were at a distance from us, if He occupied the "I-am-holier-than-thou" position, standing off in faith that knows nothing of our weakness, and the conflicts; that we have to wage, there would be no hope for us. We should have laid upon us the impossible task of lifting ourselves up to His level, before we could be united in Him, but it is not so. He that ascended up far above all heavens, is the One who first descended into the lower parts of the earth. He went down to the depths to which man had fallen, in order that man may be raised to the height of His glorious righteousness. And because this marvel of righteousness was manifested in Jesus of Nazareth, a man born of woman, born of the seed of Abraham according to the flesh, every man born of woman may, if he believes, have that same perfect righteousness, perfect deliverance from sin. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 84.6}

I know the play that is commonly made upon the word "likeness," in the text which says that, "Christ was made in the likeness of sinful flesh." I do not mean to indicate by the word play, that there is any intentional trifling with the Scripture. But a reference to the same word in Romans 5:14 will help us to see that it does not mean something like, yet not like. Thus in the text just referred to we read that "death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the similitude [likeness] of Adam's transgression." This, it is evident, is not intended to convey the idea, that the sin of Adam is different from the sin of the rest of mankind, for we all are sharers in his sin. Still more evident is this in the sixth of Romans, where we read "If we have been planted together in the likeness of His death; we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection." Comparing this with the third verse, which says that "we are baptized into His death," with the sixth verse, which says that "our old man is crucified with Him," and with the eighth verse which says that "we are dead with Christ," we see that this expression "in the likeness of His death," means identity. We share His death, that we may share His life. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 84.7}

Still more plainly does this appear from the second chapter of Hebrews, verses eleven and fourteen. "Both He that sanctifieth and they that are sanctified are all of one, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren." "Forasmuch as the children are partakers of flesh and blood He also Himself likewise took part of the same." Nothing could be more emphatic than this: He partakes of the same flesh and blood that the children have, whom He came to save. He took upon Him the seed of Abraham. He is

the Seed of the woman, and in order to make this central truth of the Gospel emphatic, and to keep it ever before the minds of mankind, He always spoke of Himself as the Son of man. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 84.8}

If there were a difference between the nature of Christ, and that of man, that which we read in Hebrews 5:7, would be but a farce. "In the days of His flesh, He offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save Him from death." He did not do this for nothing: He did not do this merely as an example to show us what we ought to do. But He did it through the eternal Spirit, that by that same Spirit He might be the Author of eternal salvation to all that trust Him. And how about Him at the present time? He is our High Priest in the heavenly places at the right hand of God, yet He is on earth in our flesh, even in our sinful flesh. "For the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, say not in thine heart, who shall ascend into heaven? (that is to bring up Christ again from the dead). But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart; that is, the Word of faith which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:6-9. If He were not still on earth (by the Spirit of course) among us, dwelling in us, there would be no hope of salvation to any human being; but our hope, our only hops, our all sufficiency hope, is this, that every weakness which would cause us to stumble and fall is upon Him, and if we but see and confess this continually, allowing Him to do that for which He is in the flesh, He is abundantly able to keep us from falling. Although in the heavens, He is still compassed with infirmity, even with our infirmity. Our great High Priest that is passed into the heavens is still touched with the feeling of our infirmity. This is why we can come with boldness to the throne of grace, assured that we shall find mercy and grace to help in time of need. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 85.1}

There seems to be the idea that it is derogatory to Christ's character, to say that He has come in sinful flesh. I have heard a professed Christian express the same thing to me, saying that the idea that Christ was born of woman was repugnant to him; he felt that it was debasing to Christ. What a false conception! It is in the highest degree honourable to Him that He can be compassed with infirmity, yet not fall, that He can have all the sin of the world upon Him, yet not be defiled. It is this that makes Him the gloriously complete Saviour; this will be His glory to all eternity. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 85.2}

Aside from all this, my reason for applying Hebrews 5:2 to Christ, is that He is the subject of the discourse. That which is stated in that verse is said to apply to every high priest taken from among men, who is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, and this to emphatically true of Christ. All this, however, will receive fuller consideration, as we proceed in our study of Hebrews in the Bible class. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 85.3}
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/10/13 05:21 AM

Originally Posted By: green
No, APL, animals are not "sinful."

Is the plan of redemption for man only or for all of fallen creations? Chapter 24 of Steven Haskell's book, "The Cross and its Shadow" says that the redemption Christ brings, is for all of creation. See the follow excerpt:
Originally Posted By: SNH
As leprosy was a type of the worst sins, the ceremony for the cleansing of the leper embraced more than any other offering. The priest who had examined the leper and pronounced him unclean, was the only one that could pronounce him clean. The priest went outside the camp and examined the leper, and if the leprosy was healed, then the healed man was to bring "two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop," unto the priest. One of the birds was killed in an earthen vessel held over running water; then the living bird, the scarlet, and the cedar were all dipped in the blood. The priest sprinkled the blood seven times upon the one who was to be cleansed, and pronounced him clean. Lev_14:4-7 {CIS 163.3}
Leprosy is a very contageous disease; everything the leper touches is contaminated. Sin also is a dreadful disease, and the earth, air, and water are all cursed by the sins of humanity, and must be cleansed by the same blood which cleanses man. Therefore, after the leper was pronounced clean, the live bird, its feathers scarlet with the blood, was let loose to fly through the air. The blood was not only sprinkled on the person who had been unclean, but it was thus carried through the air that was laden with germs of disease and sin, Jer_9:21 in type of the blood of Christ which will give a new heaven-a new atmosphere-to this sin-cursed earth. {CIS 163.4}
Before man sinned, there was no decaying vegetation; the lovely trees were not destroyed by insect pests, but all was free from the curse. Nothing but the blood of Christ can restore vegetation to its Eden beauty. In type of this regenerating power, a piece of cedar, the giant of the forest, and of hyssop, the small plant "that springeth out of the wall," 1Ki_4:33 were dipped in the blood. These were chosen to represent the two extremes in vegetation, thus embracing all. {CIS 164.1}
The animal life also is cursed by sin, but through the redeeming power of the blood of Christ the time will come when "the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf, and the young lion, and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them." Isa_11:6 {CIS 164.2}
The scarlet wool dipped in the blood represented the animal kingdom. Heb_9:19 The blood of the bird was placed in an earthen dish held over running water. Thus we see that in the cleansing of the leper the blood came in direct contact not only with the leper, but with all else cursed by sin; viz., earth, air, water, vegetation, and the animal kingdom. {CIS 164.3}
These wonderful types were but compacted prophecies of the far more wonderful Antitype. When Christ knelt in agony upon the cold ground of the garden of Gethsemane, the great drops of blood fell down from His face to the ground. Luk_22:44 Four thousand years before, when Cain slew his brother, the earth had first felt the touch of human blood, which fell as a withering curse, blighting the fruitfulness of the land. Gen_4:11-12 Many times since has the bosom of the earth not only been spotted with the blood of man, but rivers of blood have deluged the ground as armed hosts of human beings, led on by Satan, have slaughtered one another. Every drop of this blood has added to the curse. Isa_24:5-6 But how different the effect of the blood of the blessed Saviour! In it was healing, cleansing power. Num_35:33 {CIS 164.4}
The curse of sin rests heavily upon the atmosphere, which is so laden with disease germs that "death is come up into our windows and is entered into our palaces, to cut off the children from without, and the young men from the streets." In the type the blood of the offering dripped from the bird as it flew through the air. From the great antitypical Offering, as He hung on Calvary, the precious, healing blood dripped from His wounded hands and feet through the air, and fell upon the rocks beneath. The types of the old Levitical service were not a meaningless ceremony, but a prophecy of the great Antitype. {CIS 165.1}
From the earliest times, the water has been affected by the curse of sin. Exo_15:23 The bird killed over the running water was a type of the death of Christ, which would remove the curse of sin forever from the waters of the earth. The blood of Christ came in direct contact with water; when the soldier thrust the cruel spear into the side of the Saviour, "forthwith came thereout blood and water;" Joh_19:34 not a mixture of blood and water, but blood and water, two copious streams. {CIS 165.2}
"The wonderful symbol of the living bird dipped in the blood of the slain bird, and then set free to its joyous life, is to us the symbol of the atonement. There were death and life blended, presenting to the searcher of truth the hidden treasure, the union of the pardoning blood with the resurrection and life of our Redeemer. {CIS 165.3}
The bird was slain over living water; that flowing stream was a symbol of the ever flowing, ever cleansing efficacy of the blood of Christ." {CIS 166.1}
The cross upon which the Saviour hung, and which was stained with His precious blood, was made of the trees of the forest; while a small reed of hyssop supported the sponge that was dipped in vinegar and given Ilim to quench His thirst. {CIS 166.2}
As the Saviour hung upon the cross, He listened for some word or token from humanity that would indicate that His sacrifice was appreciated; but only jeers, taunts, and curses were borne to His ears from the surging mass below. Even one of the thieves by His side joined in the railing; but the other thief reproached him, and turning to Jesus said, "Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom." The reply of Jesus, "Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise;" Luk_23:39-43 contained an assurance of pardon. Even while the cleansing blood of Christ was flowing from His veins, the thief rejoiced in its power to cleanse from sin. He who was thought by His enemies to be conquered, died a mighty Conqueror, and the thief experienced the fulfilment of the promise, "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow." Isa_1:18 {CIS 166.3}
There was a significance in the color of the wool dipped in the blood of the typical offering. It is almost impossible to remove scarlet stains, but "though your sins be as scarlet," the blood of Christ can make them "white as snow." You may be condemned and counted as an outcast by every one on earth: but if you look to the Saviour and claim His cleansing power, He will wash away your sins, and put joy and rejoicing in your heart. {CIS 166.4}
In the typical service, notwithstanding the fact that when the one to be cleansed from leprosy was sprinkled with the blood, he was pronounced clean, yet there was something more for him to do. On the eighth day after he was pronounced clean, he was to appear before the priest with two lambs, a meat-offering, and a log of oil. The priest presented the man to be cleansed at the door of the tabernacle, and waved one of the lambs and the log of oil before the Lord. He then slew the lamb, and took some of the blood and put it upon "the tip of the right car" of him that was to be cleansed, "and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot," Lev_14:10-14 thus consecrating his ears to hear only those things that would tend to keep him clean, his hands to the service of God, and his feet to travel only in the way of the Lord's commandments, {CIS 166.5}
Then the priest took the log of oil, and after sprinkling a portion of it before the Lord, he put some of it "upon the tip of the right ear" of him that was to be cleansed, also "upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot," and then anointed his head with the remainder of the oil. Lev_14:15-18 {CIS 167.1}
This service was not an empty form, but a type of a blessed antitype, which is fulfilled in every Christian who presents himself for service before the Lord, after the Lord forgives his sins and pronounces him clean. Of Mary, Jesus said, "Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little." Luk_7:47 The leper cleansed from that loathsome, living death, felt so thankful to God for freedom and cleansing that he consecrated his life to the Lord for service. Not only is the oil, an emblem of the Holy Spirit which prepares the Christian for service, touched to his car, hand, and foot, but it is poured upon his head, thus betokening a full surrender of the entire being to the service of His Master who has redeemed him. The books of heaven record the names of many who have fulfilled this beautiful antitype by surrendering their entire being to the service of their Redeemer. {CIS 167.2}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/10/13 10:23 AM

No, the plan of redemption is not for "all" of "fallen creation." One must be careful with wording. The plan of redemption is for all of creation--because it will end the sin problem for the entire universe. But it is not for all of "fallen creation," because it is not for Satan and his host. There is no plan in place to redeem them.

Animals are not free moral agents, and are no more sinners than are plants, rocks, or trees. I can see an ugly heap of trash beside the road and point to it as a result of sin, but I cannot correctly call the pieces of trash "sinners." They cannot sin. They have not been given the ability to make choices between right and wrong. The same is true of the animals. They have choices, but not moral choices. They are not "free moral agents." They do things sometimes that we might look at as the results of sin, but we cannot correctly call them sinners. Jesus did not die to save them. Jesus died to save US.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/10/13 07:58 PM

Originally Posted By: green
No, the plan of redemption is not for "all" of "fallen creation." One must be careful with wording. The plan of redemption is for all of creation--because it will end the sin problem for the entire universe. But it is not for all of "fallen creation," because it is not for Satan and his host. There is no plan in place to redeem them.
You say that the "plan of redemption is for all of creation", then say is it not for all of creation because it is not for ALL of fallen creation. You started out saying we must be careful with our words, then promptly fail just as you say I did. If you want to be nitpicky, you can. You say there is no plan to redeem them. As for Satan and his host, was there ever a plan to redeem them? Yes! (Read GC chapter 29) Satan could have been restored to his position. There is however a point of no return. Why is that and what causes that?


Originally Posted By: green
Animals are not free moral agents, and are no more sinners than are plants, rocks, or trees. I can see an ugly heap of trash beside the road and point to it as a result of sin, but I cannot correctly call the pieces of trash "sinners." They cannot sin. They have not been given the ability to make choices between right and wrong. The same is true of the animals. They have choices, but not moral choices. They are not "free moral agents." They do things sometimes that we might look at as the results of sin, but we cannot correctly call them sinners. Jesus did not die to save them. Jesus died to save US.


Famous atheist Richard Dawkins said: "Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." {Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker, 1996, p. 1} Further, he said: "We may say that a living body or organ is well designed if it has attributes that an intelligent and knowledgeable engineer might have built into it in order to achieve some sensible purpose… any engineer can recognize an object that has been designed, even poorly designed, for a purpose, and he can usually work out what that purpose is just by looking at the structure of the object." {Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker, 1996, p. 21}

Green says about animals: "...they do things sometimes that we might look at as the results of sin", but it is not sin!" I guess it only has the appearance of sin! The world looks like it was designed, but it is not!

Is Dawkins right? Is Green right?

Green - you posted a response to my posting quoting Steven Haskell, but then completely ignore what Haskell said. Why? In Haskell's chapter, he says using type and antitype, that all of creation is the target of redemption. Animals, plants, air, water and people. This has to do with your concept of sin. On the EGW CD-ROM, the following phrase is found 74 times, "sin and sinners". Are sin and sinners the same, is there a difference?
Originally Posted By: EGW
Although the earth was blighted with the curse, nature was still to be man's lesson book. It could not now represent goodness only; for evil was everywhere present, marring earth and sea and air with its defiling touch. Where once was written only the character of God, the knowledge of good, was now written also the character of Satan, the knowledge of evil. From nature, which now revealed the knowledge of good and evil, man was continually to receive warning as to the results of sin. {Ed 26.2}
Evil is everywhere present, it is in animals, plants, water, air, and people. Haskell explains the types in the plan of redemption to include the air, water, animals and plants. What is "evil" if not sin? Could Christ be make to be sin, yet not participate in sin? What is a "fallen nature" if not sinful, full of sin?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/11/13 06:21 AM

APL,

I take it you believe that animals are among those for whom Christ died. Please tell me what my pet chicken needs to do to be saved.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/11/13 08:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

I take it you believe that animals are among those for whom Christ died. Please tell me what my pet chicken needs to do to be saved.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Did you read the excerpt from the article? So far, I have not detected that you have, even though you have replied twice now.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/11/13 08:12 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

I take it you believe that animals are among those for whom Christ died. Please tell me what my pet chicken needs to do to be saved.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Did you read the excerpt from the article? So far, I have not detected that you have, even though you have replied twice now.

Yes, I've read it. Happy now?

But I was responding to your assessment of it.
Originally Posted By: APL
Why? In Haskell's chapter, he says using type and antitype, that all of creation is the target of redemption. Animals, plants, air, water and people.


Your answer was a non-answer. Please answer my question in light of what you said.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/11/13 06:28 PM

I agree with Haskell. I agree with EGW who states the even the air bore the seeds of death, and that all creation is marred by sin. See Education chapter 3. The work of Christ is to make ALL things new, Revelation 21:5.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/11/13 06:52 PM

APL,

Do you believe Christ came to "redeem" all of creation or all of "fallen creation?" If so, did He die for animals as well as for man?

I believe what Christ did is for the benefit of the entire Universe, but it does not mean that He came to redeem animals. First of all, animals cannot "fall." They are most certainly affected by sin, and "all creation groaneth and travaileth together" under sin's weight. But animals are not "sinners." Christ did not come to die to save them. His death will relieve their suffering, in the end, by banishing sin. It will not mean that animals confess their sins (they don't sin) and enter heaven.

I agree with Ellen White. She says things like...
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
In place of giving so much attention to pets, lavishing affection upon dumb animals, let them exercise their talent upon human beings who have a heaven to win and a hell to shun. ...

In households and in schools the education of children should not be like the training of dumb animals; for children have an intelligent will, which should be directed to control all their powers. The dumb animals need to be trained; for they have not reason and intellect. The human mind must be taught self-control. It must be educated to rule the human being, while the animal is controlled by the master. The beast is trained to be submissive to his master. The master is mind, judgment, and will for his beast. A child may be so trained as to have, like the beast, no will of his own. His individuality may even be submerged in the one who superintends his training, and the will is, to all intents and purposes, subject to the will of the teacher. {CE 6.1}

The spies upon our Saviour's words dared not, in the presence of the multitude answer this question for fear of involving themselves in difficulties. They knew that while they would leave men to suffer and die rather than to violate their traditions by relieving them upon the Lord's day, a brute which had fallen into danger would be at once relieved, because of the loss that would accrue to the owner if he was neglected. Thus the dumb animal was exalted above man, made in the image of God. {2SP 198.3}


So, "dumb animals" were not made in the image of God as man was. "Dumb animals" do not have reason nor intellect. And "dumb animals" do not have a heaven to win nor a hell to shun.

Jesus cannot have come to redeem "dumb animals."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/11/13 08:52 PM

Did I call animals sinners? no. You say, "They are most certainly affected by sin". PLEASE explain.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/12/13 06:55 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Did I call animals sinners? no. You say, "They are most certainly affected by sin". PLEASE explain.

You ask me to explain that which even a child could understand. Why are animals afraid of us?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/12/13 07:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Did I call animals sinners? no. You say, "They are most certainly affected by sin". PLEASE explain.

You ask me to explain that which even a child could understand. Why are animals afraid of us?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
So it should be easy for you to explain!
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/12/13 07:38 AM

APL,

It would be easier to explain it to a child. Children understand things simply, without complicating everything. Jesus said if we want to enter Heaven we need to become as little children. Ponder this.

Here's how I would explain it to a six-year-old.

Animals are hurt by our sins because we do not take care of them like we should. We do not take care of the earth, and it is hard for them to live. They are afraid of us because we hurt them. God has allowed them to become examples for us, to teach us how bad sin is. They suffer under the curse of sin, even though they have never sinned themselves.

God tells us the animals are innocent. They were used to teach the children of Israel to believe that innocent Jesus would one day come to die for us, so that we may receive pardon. The animals suffered because of our sins, just as Jesus suffered for us.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/12/13 07:58 AM

So that innocent lion that ate the neighbor was just mistreated by humans, that is why it kill humans, and oh, that is why it hunts and kills other animals. Is that what you would tell you 6 year old?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/12/13 08:26 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
So that innocent lion that ate the neighbor was just mistreated by humans, that is why it kill humans, and oh, that is why it hunts and kills other animals. Is that what you would tell you 6 year old?

The lion is just an animal, doing what sin-cursed animals do. In the Bible it represents the manner in which Satan will also hunt and kill us.

If that innocent rain (can water "sin"?) can fall so fast that there is a flash-flood, and someone drowns, it was also because of a sin-cursed earth in which conditions are not favorable toward eternal life. We all must die. That is part of sin's curse. Whether it is by lion, by flood, by stroke, by auto accident, by heart attack, by cancer, by murder, by suicide, or by any other means, our own sin is ultimately the cause. We have no one else to blame. If God allows us to die, when we are trusting our lives to His care, He is not sinning against us...it is our sin that has brought our mortal condition upon us.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/12/13 08:39 AM

HOW does sin curse and animal? WHAT makes a rattle snake grows fangs with venom? By our abuse of them? Really? Is that what you would tell your 6 year old? You took biology in college. You know why snakes have fangs and venom. And you will say it is because of our abuse of animals that this happened? PLEASE explain how that happened to the innocent snake.

It is our sin that has brought our moral condition on us, or was it Adam's sin? We are talking first death here.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/12/13 08:58 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
HOW does sin curse and animal? WHAT makes a rattle snake grows fangs with venom? By our abuse of them? Really? Is that what you would tell your 6 year old? You took biology in college. You know why snakes have fangs and venom. And you will say it is because of our abuse of animals that this happened? PLEASE explain how that happened to the innocent snake.

It is our sin that has brought our moral condition on us, or was it Adam's sin? We are talking first death here.

You are talking about God's curse, though you may not realize it. Read Genesis chapter 3 again, then find what Mrs. White says about it.

I don't have time to do your research. You are well-educated. Why should I continue this off-topic tangent with you? The Bible tells you to study it diligently for yourself. This is an individual responsibility. Please do not continue asking me things that any "master in Israel" should be well aware of.

Reminder: the topic of this thread is NOT the "biology of sin." It is defining the "wrath of God."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/12/13 09:32 AM

Originally Posted By: green
You are talking about God's curse
This is how one can misunderstand the wrath of God. Read Genesis 3. Where does it say "God cursed"? It does not. God does declare that because of sin, there will be a curse. Brought by God? No. Brought on by sin. Genesis 3:14 "And the LORD God said to the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; on your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life:" And lest you read in the KJV Genesis 3:16 and misunderstand, do read what the Hebrew really says.
Originally Posted By: EGW
It is written that God cursed the ground for man's sake. The thorn and the thistle, the difficulties and the trials that make his life one of toil and care, were appointed for his good, as a part of the training needful in God's plan for his uplifting from the ruin and degradation. The world, though fallen, is not all sorrow and misery. In nature itself are messages of hope and comfort. There are flowers upon the thistle, and the thorns are covered with roses. {BTS, November 1, 1908 par. 3}
Did the ground now produce thorns and thistles because of a curse of God? OR did God declare what would now happen because of sin? Where did the thorns and thistles come from?
Originally Posted By: EGW
After the transgression of Adam, God might have destroyed every opening bud and blooming flower, or He might have taken away their fragrance, so grateful to the senses. In the earth seared and marred by the curse, in the briers, the thistles, the thorns, the tares, we may read the law of condemnation; but in the delicate color and perfume of the flowers, we may learn that God still loves us, that His mercy is not wholly withdrawn from the earth (RH Nov. 8, 1898). {1BC 1085.10}
the curse marred the earth, but did this happen because God caused it?
Originally Posted By: EGW
Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge, which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? From whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this." [Matthew 13:27, 28.] All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. {16MR 247.2}
bingo - there you go! It was sin that produces thorns and thistles, and causes the snake to crawl on its belly and causes women to have great pain in childbirth. God did not cause these things. And is it not interesting that "the curse" is via genetic manipulation according to EGW. And is it not interesting that the reason snakes have venomous fangs is because it is coded in the DNA? You are right, little children CAN understand the truth.

Now if we misunderstand "the curse", might we also misunderstand the "Wrath of God"?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/12/13 10:05 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
This is how one can misunderstand the wrath of God. Read Genesis 3. Where does it say "God cursed"? It does not.

Again, even a child understands this better than you do. God was the One speaking the curse. Why should He say "God cursed?" You are too nit-picking to see the truth. Your very first EGW quote had the truth.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
It is written that God cursed the ground for man's sake.


How can you twist this to say what it doesn't say? Again, I'd rather explain this all to a child. A child would understand.

Let's look again at your full quote.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
It is written that God cursed the ground for man's sake. The thorn and the thistle, the difficulties and the trials that make his life one of toil and care, were appointed for his good, as a part of the training needful in God's plan for his uplifting from the ruin and degradation. The world, though fallen, is not all sorrow and misery. In nature itself are messages of hope and comfort. There are flowers upon the thistle, and the thorns are covered with roses. {BTS, November 1, 1908 par. 3}


God NEEDED ("needful") the thorn, thistle, etc. as "part of...God's plan." Furthermore, they "were appointed" for our "good." Does anything "good" come from Satan? Did God tell Satan to do this for us because God Himself needed it?

Ludicrous reasoning. Again, a child would understand this.

Mystified at how the devil can sell us such a bill of goods,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/12/13 10:23 AM

Originally Posted By: The Bible
3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


God says "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow...." God says "I will put enmity between...." God curses the serpent, a symbol of Satan. While Satan may have brought God's curse deservedly upon himself, he does not curse himself. He does not choose this for himself. He does not desire it. But he gets it. It comes about because of his sin.

God curses the ground for our sake. It is good. Yes, if you misunderstand God's curse, you will misunderstand His wrath. In that thou saidst truly.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God cursed the ground because of their sin in eating of the tree of knowledge, and declared, "In sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life." He had apportioned them the good, but withheld the evil. Now God declares that they shall eat of it, that is, they should be acquainted with evil all the days of their life. {1SP 43.1}


Now, let us not dissemble and say that Satan cursed that which God tells us He cursed. The significance of it being God's curse is great. It tells us Who is in charge in this rebellious planet.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/12/13 04:24 PM

Quote:
God says "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow...."
Who killed Saul?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/12/13 04:45 PM

Originally Posted By: green
Ludicrous reasoning.

Well, you better tell EGW! SHE is the one that says that God did not create the thorns and thistles. It was Satan!
Originally Posted By: green
Originally Posted By: EGW
God cursed the ground because of their sin in eating of the tree of knowledge, and declared, "In sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life." He had apportioned them the good, but withheld the evil. Now God declares that they shall eat of it, that is, they should be acquainted with evil all the days of their life. {1SP 43.1}
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: EGW
Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge, which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? From whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this." [Matthew 13:27, 28.] All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. {16MR 247.2}


Is EGW WRONG? WHO created the thorns and the thistles? God? Or Satan?

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

When man sinned, God did step in and say, I will allow this, but there are limits. I'm not going to let you have total free reign. There will be enmity between "your seed and her seed." What is seed? The same word used in Genesis 3:15 is the used in Genesis 1:29. The Hebrew word is "zera" - look it up. The septuagint uses the Greek word "sperma". It is genetic material.

Now that you KNOW that God did not cause the snake to crawl on its belly and eat dust, but "the curse" did, which is what Satan has done to all creation, It is easy to teach a child the TRUTH about God. And Genesis 3:15 can be understood as to what is going on. God is not a monster. He is not out to torment mankind by sending thorns and thistles. He is not out to kill His enemies. He is trying to win His enemies. Romans 2:4 Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long-suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

Again, misunderstand God's curse, you will probably misunderstand God's wrath.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/12/13 06:27 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
God says "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow...."
Who killed Saul?

Who killed Nadab and Abihu? smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/12/13 06:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
God says "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow...."
Who killed Saul?

Who killed Nadab and Abihu? smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Who caused the thorns and thistles?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/12/13 07:13 PM

Originally Posted By: green
Reminder: the topic of this thread is NOT the "biology of sin." It is defining the "wrath of God."
Reminder: I started this thread. And actually, the "biology of sin" as you call it, and the wrath of God are integrally tied together.
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/13/13 02:44 AM

Yesterday as I was reading the Danish Christian Daily newspaper I discovered an interesting item about education. Among the foreign graduate students in the Danish Universities three nationalities dominate:

1. American
2. German
3. Chinese

University authorities have noticed the recent increase in Chinese students and what remarkable progress they are making. It is increasingly easy for them to adapt to the Danish mentality, and that makes them among the top students.

The Chinese are quick to notice that the Danish way of thinking is not limited to a single pillar, like in their own traditions. A Danish research student in science does not limit his thinking and research to a single subject, like physics. In his research he will also make questions within chemistry and biology equal pillars to reach a sound scientific conclusion. When the Chinese students learn this they make top graduate students.

I notice that APL is doing something like that when he ties the biology of sin together with the wrath of God. This is all within the creative power of God. Will we do as well as the Chinese in these understandings?

Sigve Tonstad, a Scandinavian, is doing this in his Biblical research about God.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/15/13 04:38 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
God says "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow...."
Who killed Saul?

Who killed Nadab and Abihu? smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Who caused the thorns and thistles?
And the same answer to all the above questions is:

Not God!
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/15/13 05:48 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
Who killed Saul?

Who killed Nadab and Abihu? smile
Who caused the thorns and thistles?

Originally Posted By: kland
And the same answer to all the above questions is:

Not God!



Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Nadab and Abihu were slain by the fire of God's wrath...

Nadab and Abihu drank too freely of wine, and the result was, they used common fire instead of sacred, and were destroyed for thus dishonoring God.

Nadab and Abihu, by drinking wine, beclouded their reasoning faculties, and so lost their sense of sacred things, that they thought they could as well offer common fire as sacred. God did not excuse them because the brain was confused. Fire from his presence destroyed them in their sin.

How can such service be acceptable to a holy God, who required the priests of Israel to make such special preparations before coming into his presence, lest his sacred holiness should consume them for dishonoring him, as in the case of Nadab and Abihu?

Nadab and Abihu were priests of the sanctuary...they did not discern the character of their actions, or realize what would be the fearful consequences of their sin. A fire blazed out from the holy of holies and consumed them.


I guess God "withdrew His protection" for Nadab and Abihu FROM HIMSELF! But, no, "Not God!"

How can we be so slow to give up cherished opinions in the face of such a weight of evidence?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/15/13 08:37 PM

The death of Nadab and Abihu was the result of them going where they could not go, directly into the presence of God. "Fire from his presence destroyed them in their sin." This is not God saying "since you came into my presence, I'm going to kill you".

Who created the thorns and thistles Green? Are you still slow to give up your cherished opinion? "All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. {16MR 247.2}"
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/16/13 07:26 AM

APL,

I can see how hard you are straining to come up with explanations that will fit your preconceived ideas. You are straining so hard, that you have come up with lies to fill the void, since the truth will not allow you to continue in your own opinion.

For everyone who is willing to receive it, here is the truth.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
An example of the demoralizing effect of intoxicants is seen in the case of Nadab and Abihu. They ventured to partake of wine before they entered the tabernacle to perform the duties of their sacred office, and the result was, they could not distinguish between common fire and that which was consecrated to the holy service. For this breach of trust they were slain. Some will say, “If they were intoxicated, and could not discern the difference between these fires, why should they be punished?” When they placed the cup to their lips, they made themselves responsible for all their deeds committed while under its influence. {CTBH 18.2}

Nadab and Abihu were men in holy office; but by the use of wine their minds became so clouded that they could not distinguish between sacred and common things. By the offering of “strange fire” they disregarded God's command, and were slain by his judgments. {CTBH 28.4}


We are explicitly told that they were slain for using common fire in place of sacred fire.

APL, every priest, during the normal service of his office, entered the sanctuary. The presence of the Lord was there. It was not for this that they were slain, because if it had been a sin to enter God's presence to officiate in the priestly duties, then either no priest would ever have entered the sanctuary, or they would all have been slain upon entry.

It is so sad to see people try to rationalize this hard in order to maintain an erroneous opinion. Won't you please reconsider? Open your heart to the truth. God wants you to trust Him above all.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/16/13 05:07 PM

Green, what lies is APL giving?

Cheerio,

kland.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/16/13 05:29 PM

kland,

APL claimed that Nadab and Abihu were killed for entering God's presence. That is simply untrue.

Originally Posted By: APL
The death of Nadab and Abihu was the result of them going where they could not go, directly into the presence of God.


The priests could go into God's presence, and did so regularly. This was a part of their official duties. Nadab and Abihu were not slain for this. They were slain for bringing in common fire in place of the sacred. In other words, they were killed for their sin not for being in God's presence.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/16/13 07:48 PM

kland, When I say Nadab and Abihu went where they could not go, that is a true statement. Green wants my statement to say, Nadab and Abihu NEVER could go into the presence. He neglects to say the whole truth. It required very special preparation to go into the presence of God. This, Nadab and Abihu did not do, thus, they COULD NOT GO IN and survive; my statement is true.
Originally Posted By: EGW
Nadab and Abihu would never have committed that fatal sin had they not first become partially intoxicated by the free use of wine. They understood that the most careful and solemn preparation was necessary before presenting themselves in the sanctuary, where the divine Presence was manifested; but by intemperance they were disqualified for their holy office. Their minds became confused and their moral perceptions dulled so that they could not discern the difference between the sacred and the common. To Aaron and his surviving sons was given the warning: "Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: {PP 361.3}

Men who have been set apart by the laying on of hands, to minister in sacred things, often stand in the desk with their mouths polluted, their lips stained, and their breath tainted with the defilements of tobacco. They speak to the people in Christ's stead. How can such service be acceptable to a holy God, who required the priests of Israel to make such special preparations before coming into his presence, lest his sacred holiness should consume them for dishonoring him, as in the case of Nadab and Abihu? {4aSG 127.2}

So you see, Nadab and Abihu were disqualified from entering in, they could not go in. But I do not expect green to acknowledge he was wrong.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/16/13 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By: green
It is so sad to see people try to rationalize this hard in order to maintain an erroneous opinion. Won't you please reconsider? Open your heart to the truth. God wants you to trust Him above all.
What you are really saying green, is be very afraid of God. Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/16/13 08:25 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
kland, When I say Nadab and Abihu went where they could not go, that is a true statement. Green wants my statement to say, Nadab and Abihu NEVER could go into the presence. He neglects to say the whole truth. It required very special preparation to go into the presence of God. This, Nadab and Abihu did not do, thus, they COULD NOT GO IN and survive; my statement is true.
Originally Posted By: EGW
Nadab and Abihu would never have committed that fatal sin had they not first become partially intoxicated by the free use of wine. They understood that the most careful and solemn preparation was necessary before presenting themselves in the sanctuary, where the divine Presence was manifested; but by intemperance they were disqualified for their holy office. Their minds became confused and their moral perceptions dulled so that they could not discern the difference between the sacred and the common. To Aaron and his surviving sons was given the warning: "Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: {PP 361.3}

Men who have been set apart by the laying on of hands, to minister in sacred things, often stand in the desk with their mouths polluted, their lips stained, and their breath tainted with the defilements of tobacco. They speak to the people in Christ's stead. How can such service be acceptable to a holy God, who required the priests of Israel to make such special preparations before coming into his presence, lest his sacred holiness should consume them for dishonoring him, as in the case of Nadab and Abihu? {4aSG 127.2}

So you see, Nadab and Abihu were disqualified from entering in, they could not go in. But I do not expect green to acknowledge he was wrong.

APL,

You are correct that Nadab and Abihu disqualified themselves by drinking. But you were incorrect in saying that they were killed for entering God's presence. Every priest did that, and it was a part of their ordinary duties. Furthermore, neither of your statements above says it was the entering into God's presence that caused their deaths. The one that mentions them being consumed speaks of their deaths having been caused by "dishonoring him [God]." That "dishonoring" is made clear by Mrs. White's other statements to have been the fact of bringing common fire into the service of the sanctuary.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/16/13 09:11 PM

Green - every priest that entered were prepared to enter. No priest would survive without that preparation. It was the entering in unprepared. My statement is not false, and your characterization of it be false is itself false. The statement that they when where they could not go, is true, and in harmony with EGW statements.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/16/13 09:15 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Green - every priest that entered were prepared to enter. No priest would survive without that preparation. It was the entering in unprepared. My statement is not false, and your characterization of it be false is itself false. The statement that they when where they could not go, is true, and in harmony with EGW statements.

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." (Proverbs 21:2)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/16/13 09:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Green - every priest that entered were prepared to enter. No priest would survive without that preparation. It was the entering in unprepared. My statement is not false, and your characterization of it be false is itself false. The statement that they when where they could not go, is true, and in harmony with EGW statements.

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." (Proverbs 21:2)

Green Cochoa.
Yes! And:

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

Romans 1:16 I’m not ashamed of the gospel. Through it comes the power of God to save everyone who believes. It came to the Jews first, then to the Greeks.

Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/17/13 10:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
kland,

APL claimed that Nadab and Abihu were killed for entering God's presence. That is simply untrue.
But weren't they?

Quote:
In other words, they were killed for their sin not for being in God's presence.

Quote:
You are correct that Nadab and Abihu disqualified themselves by drinking. But you were incorrect in saying that they were killed for entering God's presence. Every priest did that, and it was a part of their ordinary duties.


Question: Would they have been killed if they had not gone in God's presence?

Question: Are priests qualified to go into God's presence at all times? Also, once a priest, always a priest?

If they disqualified themselves by drinking, and did not repent of that, would you consider them still a priest and could go into God's presence and offer "strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not."?


I find your blatant false accusation against APL appalling.



Speaking of appalling:
Quote:
It is beyond the power of the human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment. The religion of the Bible, full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion, is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels. {GC 536.2}
To which view does this seem more appropriately addressed?

(This is close to what I was looking for, but seemed like I had come across it a little differently. Lot's to search for about "the character of God", but I have not found one saying we need to hold a view of God that is stern, severe, hateful, fearful...)

Quote:
God has committed a work to His people. Both at home and in the regions beyond, there is work to be done. The truths of the Bible have again become obscured by custom, tradition, and false doctrine. The erroneous teachings of popular theology have made thousands upon thousands of skeptics and infidels. Multitudes have been led to cherish an erroneous conception of God, as the Jews, misled by the errors and traditions of their time, had a false conception of Christ. "Had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." If we have the Spirit of Christ, and are laborers together with Him, it is ours to carry forward the work that He came to do, ours to reveal to the world the character of God. And His hand is stretched out to save His people in this age from sinking into the formal, Christless state into which the Jewish nation sank. {ST, May 7, 1902 par. 13}
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/18/13 12:40 AM

kland - there are MANY references one could use of EGW that speak of picturing God as stern and severe. Read the whole article on ST January 20, 1890. And these from COL and SC. This is just a sample as you know!
Originally Posted By: EGW/COL
In his restless youth the prodigal looked upon his father as stern and severe. How different his conception of him now! So those who are deceived by Satan look upon God as hard and exacting. They regard Him as watching to denounce and condemn, as unwilling to receive the sinner so long as there is a legal excuse for not helping him. His law they regard as a restriction upon men's happiness, a burdensome yoke from which they are glad to escape. But he whose eyes have been opened by the love of Christ will behold God as full of compassion. He does not appear as a tyrannical, relentless being, but as a father longing to embrace his repenting son. The sinner will exclaim with the Psalmist, "Like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear Him." Psalms 103:13. {COL 204.2}

In the parable there is no taunting, no casting up to the prodigal of his evil course. The son feels that the past is forgiven and forgotten, blotted out forever. And so God says to the sinner, "I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins," Isaiah 44:22. "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:34. "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon." Isaiah 55:7. "In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found." Jeremiah 50:20. {COL 204.3}

Originally Posted By: EGW/SC
God has bound our hearts to Him by unnumbered tokens in heaven and in earth. Through the things of nature, and the deepest and tenderest earthly ties that human hearts can know, He has sought to reveal Himself to us. Yet these but imperfectly represent His love. Though all these evidences have been given, the enemy of good blinded the minds of men, so that they looked upon God with fear; they thought of Him as severe and unforgiving. Satan led men to conceive of God as a being whose chief attribute is stern justice,--one who is a severe judge, a harsh, exacting creditor. He pictured the Creator as a being who is watching with jealous eye to discern the errors and mistakes of men, that He may visit judgments upon them. It was to remove this dark shadow, by revealing to the world the infinite love of God, that Jesus came to live among men. {SC 10.3}

The Son of God came from heaven to make manifest the Father. "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him." John 1:18. "Neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him." Matthew 11:27. When one of the disciples made the request, "Show us the Father," Jesus answered, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" John 14:8-9. {SC 11.1}

Posted By: dedication

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/18/13 05:53 AM

Originally Posted By: APL

kland, When I say Nadab and Abihu went where they could not go, that is a true statement....
So you see, Nadab and Abihu were disqualified from entering in, they could not go in. But I do not expect green to acknowledge he was wrong.


You qualified your statement. I don't think anyone would argue that Nadab and Abihu had disqualified themselves from their sacred ministry in the Holy Place.

However, your first post did not make any qualifications, it merely indicated they went into the presence of God where they weren't suppose to go.

Yet it was their job to go into the holy place of the sanctuary and take care of things therein. Their problem was not that they went in, but that they had beclouded their reasoning powers with wine before going in and thus committed a grievous sin -- that SIN was bringing in common fire.


Quote:
Nadab and Abihu were men in holy office; but by the use of wine their minds became so clouded that they could not distinguish between sacred and common things. By the offering of “strange fire” they disregarded God's command, and were slain by his judgments. {CTBH 28.4}

They “offered strange fire before the Lord, which He commanded them not.” Taking common fire they placed it upon their censers. “And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord. CEv92

Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, who ministered in the holy office of priesthood, partook freely of wine and, as was their usual custom, went in to minister before the Lord. The priests who burned incense before the Lord were required to use the fire of God's kindling, which burned day and night and was never extinguished. God gave explicit directions.. And any deviation from the express directions of God in connection with His holy service was punishable with death. {Con 80.1}

The father of the men slain, and their brothers, were forbidden to manifest any signs of grief for the ones who had been justly punished of God. When Moses reminded Aaron of the words of the Lord, that he would be sanctified in them that came nigh to him, Aaron was silent. He knew that God was just; and he murmured not. His heart was grieved at the dreadful death of his sons while in their disobedience; yet, according to God's command, he made no expression of his sorrow, lest he should share the same fate of his sons, and the congregation also be infected with the spirit of unreconciliation, and God's wrath come upon them. {1SP 277.2}


Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/18/13 06:39 AM

dedication - - my statement is still true. It was their job to be prepared, this they did not do. You take my statement and extend it to include all situations. Is that fair? I suppose if you think it supports your position. When Nadab and Abihu went in, it was into a place they could not go, they had not prepared themselves. Yes, it was their custom to minister before the Lord. But only if they had done adequate preparation. If they were disqualified, then they could not go in, right? My statement is completely true under the circumstances of our discussion.

Green make the claim that Nadab and Abihu were not killed by going into the presence of the Lord. He said, "That is simply untrue." Whose statement is correct? His, or mine? They clearly died because their went in unprepared.

I'm glad that all the comments on are on this thread. They stand as an accurate testimony to the truth...
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/18/13 08:15 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
dedication - - my statement is still true. It was their job to be prepared, this they did not do. You take my statement and extend it to include all situations. Is that fair? I suppose if you think it supports your position. When Nadab and Abihu went in, it was into a place they could not go, they had not prepared themselves. Yes, it was their custom to minister before the Lord. But only if they had done adequate preparation. If they were disqualified, then they could not go in, right? My statement is completely true under the circumstances of our discussion.

Green make the claim that Nadab and Abihu were not killed by going into the presence of the Lord. He said, "That is simply untrue." Whose statement is correct? His, or mine? They clearly died because their went in unprepared.

I'm glad that all the comments on are on this thread. They stand as an accurate testimony to the truth...

When Uzzah touched the ark, did that "touch" enter him into God's presence? After all, he was already just beside it, wasn't he? If being beside the ark was NOT "entering God's presence," then you have a logical problem with your view.

One of the following must be true in Uzzah's case:

A) Uzzah "entered God's presence" by touching the ark; OR
B) Uzzah was already in God's presence before touching the ark.

Uzzah, as any of us, was a sinner. Sinners have been able to exist in God's presence, because God does not fully show Himself to them. If God so chooses, He can show Himself to them, and they will die. This has happened too. In 1 Samuel 16:9 we learn of 50,070 people who died for looking into the ark. God is too holy for us, in our sinful state, to look upon. We would be consumed. The Bible teaches this through its faithful record.

Now, if Uzzah was already in God's presence before touching the ark, why did the touch kill him?

You see, Nadab and Abihu had entered God's presence many times before. They were among the 70 elders of Israel to have gone near the summit of the mount with Moses when Moses went up to the Lord. They had been highly privileged in Israel. Mrs. White says of them: "Next to Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu had stood highest in Israel. They had been especially honored by the Lord, having been permitted with the seventy elders to behold His glory in the mount." Even Moses was a sinner, but he entered God's presence and was not consumed. So what made the difference with Nadab and Abihu? They transgressed God's explicit commands for how to worship Him, while in His presence. God's presence was not the cause of their death--their sin was. But God was the one who killed them because of that sin. God, in doing this, preserved the sacredness of their office and preserved His own honor. God upheld His sovereignty as a lesson to all of us regarding obedience and faithfulness to the preservation of our lives. God will preserve us, but only as we are faithful to Him.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
An example of the demoralizing effect of intoxicants is seen in the case of Nadab and Abihu. They ventured to partake of wine before they entered the tabernacle to perform the duties of their sacred office, and the result was, they could not distinguish between common fire and that which was consecrated to the holy service. For this breach of trust they were slain. Some will say, “If they were intoxicated, and could not discern the difference between these fires, why should they be punished?” When they placed the cup to their lips, they made themselves responsible for all their deeds committed while under its influence. {CTBH 18.2}


Note that Ellen White NEVER says Nadab and Abihu were slain for entering God's presence. She also NEVER says that they were slain for improper preparations before entering His presence. She specifically says they were slain for bringing in common fire in place of the sacred. She says they did this because their judgment was impaired by the wine they had drunk.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
And even the priests, Nadab and Abihu, had been destroyed for venturing to offer "strange fire," in disregard of a divine command.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/18/13 10:11 AM

Uzzah violated explicit commands of how to handle the Ark. His presumption is what killed him. For presuming to touch the symbol of God's presence, he was smitten with instant death. Uzzah was not ignorant of the instructions of how to carry the Ark. God is sure exacting and unforgiving. Is it not interesting that the Philistines, who were ignorant, did not die for mishandling the Ark.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/18/13 02:53 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Uzzah violated explicit commands of how to handle the Ark. His presumption is what killed him. For presuming to touch the symbol of God's presence, he was smitten with instant death. Uzzah was not ignorant of the instructions of how to carry the Ark. God is sure exacting and unforgiving. Is it not interesting that the Philistines, who were ignorant, did not die for mishandling the Ark.

This is heartening to hear you speak this way. Now, exactly "how" was Uzzah "smitten with instant death?"

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/18/13 07:02 PM

It was not INFLICTED by God. God's mercy is at work for all. We have shown what God's mercy is and what happens when mercy is withdrawn.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/18/13 08:17 PM

Your earlier statement showed your familiarity with Mrs. White's words, for you quoted a portion of them. Here is her statement that you have seen before.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Again, consider the judgment that fell upon Uzzah. As in David's reign the ark was being carried to Jerusalem, Uzzah put forth his hand to keep it steady. For presuming to touch the symbol of God's presence, he was smitten with instant death. {MH 436.1}


But you did not choose to quote from Patriarchs and Prophets.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
But "when they came to Nachon's threshing floor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God smote him there for his rashness.... {PP 705.1}


Ellen White does NOT say "God told the devil he could smite Uzzah, and the devil did it with glee." We see that she attributes the action directly to God Himself.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/18/13 10:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Your earlier statement showed your familiarity with Mrs. White's words, for you quoted a portion of them. Here is her statement that you have seen before.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Again, consider the judgment that fell upon Uzzah. As in David's reign the ark was being carried to Jerusalem, Uzzah put forth his hand to keep it steady. For presuming to touch the symbol of God's presence, he was smitten with instant death. {MH 436.1}


But you did not choose to quote from Patriarchs and Prophets.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
But "when they came to Nachon's threshing floor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God smote him there for his rashness.... {PP 705.1}


Ellen White does NOT say "God told the devil he could smite Uzzah, and the devil did it with glee." We see that she attributes the action directly to God Himself.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I interpret Uzzah from the same paradigm as other stories. "God smote Uzzah" just as "God killed Saul", and God destroyed Jerusalem and God sent fiery serpents, and God sent a plague to the quail eaters and God sent His arrows against the sinners in Deuteronomy 32.....
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/19/13 03:43 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
I interpret Uzzah from the same paradigm as other stories. "God smote Uzzah" just as "God killed Saul", and God destroyed Jerusalem and God sent fiery serpents, and God sent a plague to the quail eaters and God sent His arrows against the sinners in Deuteronomy 32.....


Of course you do.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/19/13 05:07 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Uzzah violated explicit commands of how to handle the Ark. His presumption is what killed him. For presuming to touch the symbol of God's presence, he was smitten with instant death. Uzzah was not ignorant of the instructions of how to carry the Ark. God is sure exacting and unforgiving. Is it not interesting that the Philistines, who were ignorant, did not die for mishandling the Ark.
I had come across something which said that the Ark wasn't actually about to fall but he felt presumptuous enough to use that as an excuse to touch that which he knew not to do.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/19/13 05:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
I interpret Uzzah from the same paradigm as other stories. "God smote Uzzah" just as "God killed Saul", and God destroyed Jerusalem and God sent fiery serpents, and God sent a plague to the quail eaters and God sent His arrows against the sinners in Deuteronomy 32.....


Of course you do.
Green, you have spoken of more than once claiming that APL is only accepting some verses. So, what about you?

What do you do with the verses which say that God is not the destroyer?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/21/13 08:09 AM

A new website to me on the Wrath of God:
http://www.gnag.org/topics/wrath.htm
Posted By: dedication

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/21/13 09:58 AM

Originally Posted By: kland


What do you do with the verses which say that God is not the destroyer?

Is there a text that says that?

Even the quote in GC page 88 shows that God allows the natural results of sin to take it's course. One sows sin and reaps the result.
We don't half realize the blessings God bestows upon us by restraining much of the evil.
But it doesn't say God NEVER executes justice, that would contradict scripture.

John 5:22 For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:
5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.


So it all narrows down as to how one understands "destroyer".

No, I don't see God as a destroyer, yet I believe He will put an end to sin and sinners.

The destroyer is eager for the destruction of as many people as he can convince to reject God. He loves to sweep whole crowds into the grave before they make a decision to accept Christ. He uses cunning and deception to destroy their chances of heaven. He takes delight in seeing God's children suffer and blaspheme the name of the One Who wants to save them.

God is not the destroyer -- NEVER. His whole plan is based on love. He works tirelessly to save as many as He can. He has provided for the salvation of all, the cross standing as monument to this great love, and He is calling to all to come out of the grip of death and sin into His cleansing care and Life. Yet love demands justice, sometimes our very safety and wellbeing is a result of God stopping evil ones. It most certainly will be that way when eternity begins. All evil rejecters of God's marvelous gift of the cross and Life will be destroyed in the final fire which consumes all sin.


Usually one takes all verses on a subject, not just base it on one or two popular verses or quotes.
In this case the Bible is full of accounts where God steps in and arrests evil so truth can gain a foothold. And often He does this before the seeds of evil totally choke out any possibility for truth to grow.

One has to totally rewrite scripture to believe that God never destroys evil. The conquest of Canaan -- the flood -- and many other Biblical accounts.

I really don't think we should put God in a box restricted by our faulty understanding of love and justice. Just study the cross and know that His goal is salvation for as many as possibly will respond. His delight is in saving people and offering them Life. Trust Him.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/21/13 11:55 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Green, you have spoken of more than once claiming that APL is only accepting some verses. So, what about you?

What do you do with the verses which say that God is not the destroyer?


kland,

I agree with them. They are able to fit into my view. My view encompasses two sides. APL sees only one of those sides. As a result, most of our discussion is on the other side, the one that he chooses not to accept. But I accept most of his view, plus more that he does not choose to accept. Our argument is really only on his non-acceptance of additional truths.

I do not see God as a tyrant, or one who is out to destroy. It is interesting that if you look carefully at Mrs. White's statements, she says God is not to be represented as these things. Probably 98% or more of this "argument" between APL and myself has been about "representation," even though ostensibly we have considered "facts." The facts are not the real argument here. We both accept the Bible (at least, supposedly), and Mrs. White. However, APL feels called to make name substitutions in parts of the Bible which are unjustified. The Bible must be understood in proper context.

For example, BOTH Jesus and Satan are represented as a lion. APL focuses on Jesus' other representation, a lamb. I have yet to hear APL speak much about Jesus as a lion. Why? If APL sees "lion" he will gravitate toward thinking "Satan."

There are times when the Bible speaks of God similarly to references to Satan. For example, "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him...." (And you know the story.) Was God truly "tempting" Abraham? What about that text which says "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man"? Do we have a contradiction? Apparently, yes. For those who see things in black and white, like APL prefers, one of these statements (the former, obviously, is the natural choice) must be re-interpreted. Either Satan tempted Abraham instead of God, or God was not tempting but doing something else.

My own level of mature thinking sees no contradiction between the verses as worded. I am able to comprehend the two under separate contexts, and understand the principle behind each one, as opposed to the surface value of the words themselves.

Much of this discussion has revolved around similar word matters--semantics, really. But the semantics of APL have warped things in his mind from their true standing to that of an opinion that can no longer stand on the terra firma of Scripture.

God is not the destroyer, even though He sometimes destroys. Similarly, Satan is not the "Truth-teller," even though he sometimes speaks the truth.

Remember the demon-possessed individuals that came declaring that Jesus was the Son of God? But Satan is called "the father of lies." How can this be? Again, my level of understanding is able to comprehend this apparent incongruity because the words simply convey a principle, and it is this principle of the matter that a mature, scholarly student of the Word of God must come to understand in order to reach truth.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/21/13 05:59 PM

Originally Posted By: green
For example, BOTH Jesus and Satan are represented as a lion. APL focuses on Jesus' other representation, a lamb. I have yet to hear APL speak much about Jesus as a lion. Why? If APL sees "lion" he will gravitate toward thinking "Satan."

LIONS!!! Thanks! Is Jesus like Satan? Are they both lions? "Christ revealed a character the opposite of the character of Satan. {DA 25.1}" Are the characters of Satan and Jesus alike? NO. They are opposite. Yes, God has been represented as a lion. As Heb_1:1-3 says, if you want to know what God is like look to Jesus. Joh_14:9, Jesus is exactly like the Father. Revelation speaking about the seals: Rev_5:5-6 And one of the elders said to me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, see, in the middle of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the middle of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

As John does repeatedly in the book of revelation, he presents a violent picture, then flips it around. John HEARD "Lion of the tribe of Judah", the "Root of David", but then he looked and what did he see? "A Lamb as it had been slain". All through the Old Testament, the sactuary service has as its focus, a LAMB. God is a LAMB, not a LION. Exo_34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth. Is that a description of a LION?

"The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}" IF you really want to know what God is like look to Jesus. "All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}" IF you picture of God does not fit what you see in Jesus, then your picture of God is wrong.

Originally Posted By: green
There are times when the Bible speaks of God similarly to references to Satan. For example, "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him...." (And you know the story.) Was God truly "tempting" Abraham? What about that text which says "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man"? Do we have a contradiction? Apparently, yes. For those who see things in black and white, like APL prefers, one of these statements (the former, obviously, is the natural choice) must be re-interpreted. Either Satan tempted Abraham instead of God, or God was not tempting but doing something else.

My own level of mature thinking sees no contradiction between the verses as worded. I am able to comprehend the two under separate contexts, and understand the principle behind each one, as opposed to the surface value of the words themselves. 
So a MATURE person would understand that both God and Satan tempts us? Jas_1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man:, Of course this passage continues to say that SIN causes death, but I guess a MATURE way of thinking is that God is the one that causes death, just like Satan. But then God has attributes of Satan? NOPE. Does God tempt? The pagans believed that the gods tempted humans. The SDABC puts it this way, "The idea that the gods were responsible for man’s temptations and ensuing sins was especially prevalent among the Greeks of James’s day and apparently, in some degree, permeated the thinking of Christians also." Also Adam blamed God because He gave him Eve, "it was the woman you gave me".

2Sa_24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

My Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it. Or does it?

1Ch_21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

OK - which is it? God or Satan? Obviously it is Satan. But why did the previous statement say it was the Lord? Are there other passages which claim on thing, but in reality it is just the opposite? YEP. This is why one needs to take all of scripture to the the whole story. God tempts no one. Full Stop. That is the reality.

What about Abraham? Did God "tempt" Abraham? The word translated tempt in the KJV is the same word translated as "prove" such as 1Ki_10:1, The queen of Sheba came to Solomon “to prove him with hard questions” designed to reveal whether his wisdom was as great as it was reputed to be. I guess Green sees God tempting the children of Israel in the desert by giving them manna, Exo_16:4. God NEVER tempts anyone. I guess my view is not MATURE enough?
Originally Posted By: green
Much of this discussion has revolved around similar word matters--semantics, really. But the semantics of APL have warped things in his mind from their true standing to that of an opinion that can no longer stand on the terra firma of Scripture.
I use the Bible to explain the difficult passages.
Originally Posted By: green
God is not the destroyer, even though He sometimes destroys.
Originally Posted By: EGW
God destroys no man. {COL 84.4}
God destroys no man, even though sometimes He does?
Originally Posted By: green
Again, my level of understanding is able to comprehend this apparent incongruity because the words simply convey a principle, and it is this principle of the matter that a mature, scholarly student of the Word of God must come to understand in order to reach truth.

It is clear, my level of understanding is not the same as Green's.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/21/13 06:09 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
For example, BOTH Jesus and Satan are represented as a lion. APL focuses on Jesus' other representation, a lamb. I have yet to hear APL speak much about Jesus as a lion. Why? If APL sees "lion" he will gravitate toward thinking "Satan."

LIONS!!! Thanks! Is Jesus like Satan? Are they both lions? "Christ revealed a character the opposite of the character of Satan. {DA 25.1}" Are the characters of Satan and Jesus alike? NO. They are opposite. Yes, God has been represented as a lion. As Heb_1:1-3 says, if you want to know what God is like look to Jesus. Joh_14:9, Jesus is exactly like the Father. Revelation speaking about the seals: Rev_5:5-6 And one of the elders said to me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, see, in the middle of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the middle of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

As John does repeatedly in the book of revelation, he presents a violent picture, then flips it around. John HEARD "Lion of the tribe of Judah", the "Root of David", but then he looked and what did he see? "A Lamb as it had been slain". All through the Old Testament, the sactuary service has as its focus, a LAMB. God is a LAMB, not a LION. Exo_34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth. Is that a description of a LION?

"The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}" IF you really want to know what God is like look to Jesus. "All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}" IF you picture of God does not fit what you see in Jesus, then your picture of God is wrong.

Originally Posted By: green
There are times when the Bible speaks of God similarly to references to Satan. For example, "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him...." (And you know the story.) Was God truly "tempting" Abraham? What about that text which says "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man"? Do we have a contradiction? Apparently, yes. For those who see things in black and white, like APL prefers, one of these statements (the former, obviously, is the natural choice) must be re-interpreted. Either Satan tempted Abraham instead of God, or God was not tempting but doing something else.

My own level of mature thinking sees no contradiction between the verses as worded. I am able to comprehend the two under separate contexts, and understand the principle behind each one, as opposed to the surface value of the words themselves. 
So a MATURE person would understand that both God and Satan tempts us? Jas_1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man:, Of course this passage continues to say that SIN causes death, but I guess a MATURE way of thinking is that God is the one that causes death, just like Satan. But then God has attributes of Satan? NOPE. Does God tempt? The pagans believed that the gods tempted humans. The SDABC puts it this way, "The idea that the gods were responsible for man’s temptations and ensuing sins was especially prevalent among the Greeks of James’s day and apparently, in some degree, permeated the thinking of Christians also." Also Adam blamed God because He gave him Eve, "it was the woman you gave me".

2Sa_24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

My Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it. Or does it?

1Ch_21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

OK - which is it? God or Satan? Obviously it is Satan. But why did the previous statement say it was the Lord? Are there other passages which claim on thing, but in reality it is just the opposite? YEP. This is why one needs to take all of scripture to the the whole story. God tempts no one. Full Stop. That is the reality.

What about Abraham? Did God "tempt" Abraham? The word translated tempt in the KJV is the same word translated as "prove" such as 1Ki_10:1, The queen of Sheba came to Solomon “to prove him with hard questions” designed to reveal whether his wisdom was as great as it was reputed to be. I guess Green sees God tempting the children of Israel in the desert by giving them manna, Exo_16:4. God NEVER tempts anyone. I guess my view is not MATURE enough?
Originally Posted By: green
Much of this discussion has revolved around similar word matters--semantics, really. But the semantics of APL have warped things in his mind from their true standing to that of an opinion that can no longer stand on the terra firma of Scripture.
I use the Bible to explain the difficult passages.
Originally Posted By: green
God is not the destroyer, even though He sometimes destroys.
Originally Posted By: EGW
God destroys no man. {COL 84.4}
God destroys no man, even though sometimes He does?
Originally Posted By: green
Again, my level of understanding is able to comprehend this apparent incongruity because the words simply convey a principle, and it is this principle of the matter that a mature, scholarly student of the Word of God must come to understand in order to reach truth.

It is clear, my level of understanding is not the same as Green's.


I see you agreed with my assessment of your position. smile

On "temptation," Mrs. White says something that is interesting.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Temptations will pour in upon us; for by them we are to be tried during our probation. This is the proving of God, the revelation of our own hearts. There is no sin in having temptation; but sin comes in when temptation is yielded to. {ST, May 27, 1897 par. 3}


Several important points are made there.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/21/13 07:23 PM

So James is wrong. He does not have a MATURE position. Why don't you just say so!
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/22/13 06:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
Green, you have spoken of more than once claiming that APL is only accepting some verses. So, what about you?

What do you do with the verses which say that God is not the destroyer?


kland,

I agree with them. They are able to fit into my view. My view encompasses two sides. APL sees only one of those sides.
...
Yes, you've said that before. But my question involves, What do you do with the verses which say that God is not the destroyer?


Quote:
God is not the destroyer, even though He sometimes destroys. Similarly, Satan is not the "Truth-teller," even though he sometimes speaks the truth.
Could you explain what this means? This sounds a lot like,
'God is not the destroyer because He is the destroyer.'

Maybe if you explain what a destroyer does. Put it in terms so that anyone who sees someone doing those things, they can recognize him as a destroyer.

Were those who destroyed the twin towers, destroyers?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 06:54 AM

kland,

I think we've gone over this ground before, multiple times.

Jesus is many things, I suppose. But we don't always say THE before all of those things. For example, the Bible says God's name is Jealous. Is He now THE Jealous One? Was not jealousy one of Satan's first sins? Is God a sinner now? Of course not!

Mature scholars are able to distinguish between righteous jealousy and unrighteous jealousy.

What about anger? How is it that the Bible tells us to "be ye angry and sin not?" Is not anger a sin by itself?

Again, anger is a sin when its motivation is selfish. Righteous anger is not a sin, for its motivation is unselfish.

This is the form of anger and punishment which God will have--righteous. I am able to discern these two forms and accept them, even though I may not fully understand or be able to explain them in detail. A major part of this is that I TRUST GOD. If God says He will do something, I know He will. If God says it is righteous, I trust that it is. I have seen enough of God's character to understand that He is just, good, and fair, along with bringing the rejectors of His grace and mercy to justice in the end. This is no contradiction.

Again, I have gone fishing a few times in my life...more than two decades ago. Am I THE Fisherman? Of course not?

When God destroys, it is His "strange act." He is not THE destroyer, Satan is. The difference between "the" and "a" is tremendous.

I'll throw out a challenge: If you can find one single statement from Mrs. White or the Bible that says "God is not A destroyer," I will seriously reconsider my view.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 07:37 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Were those who destroyed the twin towers, destroyers?
kland - pay attention to what Green is saying! No, those people that flew the planes into the twin towers are not destroyers. Most of the time they did not destroy. Just because they did one act does not make them destroyers, any more that green's going fishing makes him a fisherman. Makes so much sense. </sarcasm>
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 07:43 AM

Originally Posted By: EGW
In stooping to take upon Himself humanity, Christ revealed a character the opposite of the character of Satan. {DA 25.1}
Originally Posted By: EGW
Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the Restorer. {MM 11.2}
Originally Posted By: EGW
God destroys no man. {COL 84.4}
Quote:
Zechariah 4:6 Then he answered and spoke to me, saying, This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, said the LORD of hosts.
Somehow, green gets the idea that God is the destroyer. Interesting.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 07:48 AM

Originally Posted By: green
When God destroys, it is His "strange act."
Green - show me from the life of Christ where this is explained. YOU CAN'T.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 07:54 AM

APL,

You aren't listening to what I am saying. Your misrepresentations of my beliefs do not elicit a further response to you at this time.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 08:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

You aren't listening to what I am saying. Your misrepresentations of my beliefs do not elicit a further response to you at this time.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
No, I don't think I have misrepresented what you said.
Originally Posted By: green
When God destroys, it is His "strange act." He is not THE destroyer, Satan is. The difference between "the" and "a" is tremendous.
You are saying, God is A destroyer. Satan then can't be THE destroyer. He also then is A destroyer, for there are more that one.

You also CANNOT demonstrate from the life of Christ where the "strange act" is defined as God being A destroyer. You cant, because it is not there. Everything we need to know and indeed can know, is demonstrated in the life of Christ. If you cannot demonstrate it in the life of Christ, it must be rejected.
Originally Posted By: EGW
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 08:13 AM

Your blindness, APL, does not limit my options, nor my views.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 08:21 AM

I'm just quoting YOU.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 10:07 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
I'm just quoting YOU.

No, you're not. Speaking truthfully is important to having a meaningful conversation.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 04:28 PM

Originally Posted By: green
No, you're not. Speaking truthfully is important to having a meaningful conversation.
OK - help me out then. You say you have gone fishing but you are not a fisherman. You say God is A destroyer, but not THE destroyer. Am I misquoting you yet? You are calling me a liar, that is a serious charge. If it is not true, then who is the liar?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 05:19 PM

APL,

You said this:

Originally Posted By: APL
You are saying, God is A destroyer. Satan then can't be THE destroyer. He also then is A destroyer, for there are more that one.


before saying...

Originally Posted By: APL
I'm just quoting YOU.


Obviously, you were putting words in my mouth beyond what I was saying. Let's try another stab at logic, which I hope you can understand this time because I'm tired of your twisting things.

I do NOT see myself as a fisherman. "A fisherman." Even less would I be "THE fisherman." But I have sometimes fished.

Do you catch that?

I do not choose to view God as "a destroyer." Even less is He "THE destroyer." But He sometimes destroys.

Does that make sense?

So, no, I never called God "a destroyer." In fact, I was using an interrogative clause (indirect question), not making a statement, when I used the phrase "a destroyer." Instead of taking the question in the sense in which it was presented, you twisted it from interrogative to declarative and thus misrepresented what I had said. Then you had the gall to say you were "just quoting" me.

I am an analytical person. I pay attention to details. I do not always choose perfect wording every time, but I do attempt to speak my thoughts with accuracy and in a way that seems to me should be clear to others. Somehow, what I say never seems clear enough to you. I feel the reason is your intentions. You do not read what I post with a desire to understand--but rather with an intent to critique and to pick apart what I say. I find no enjoyment in this "game."

I should probably put this part in red, with a "Mod Hat," but as a moderator let me tell you that I have been on the verge of closing this topic several times already due to its lack of Christian spirit. I may be, myself, partly to blame. But I want to see topics here at Maritime reflect Christian courtesy, and I wish to do better in that arena myself. If this thread does not make some advances in this area, I will, as a moderator, close it--not so much for the views expressed here as for the spirit in which they are expressed. Does this sound reasonable?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 05:34 PM

GC,

It sounds reasonable to me.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 05:39 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
You are saying, God is A destroyer. Satan then can't be THE destroyer. He also then is A destroyer, for there are more that one.

I already spoke to the fact that you are misstating my words above. Let's look at the last two sentences that show how the follow-through from your original error lands up.

"Satan then can't be THE destroyer. He also then is A destroyer, for there are more [than] one."

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Through spiritualism, Satan appears as a benefactor of the race, healing the diseases of the people, and professing to present a new and more exalted system of religious faith; but at the same time he works as a destroyer. ... {GC 589.1}

A terrible contest is before us. We are nearing the battle of the great day of God Almighty. That which has been held in control is to be let loose. The angel of mercy is folding its wings, preparing to step down from the golden throne and leave the world to the control of Satan, the king it has chosen, a murderer and a destroyer from the beginning. {OFC 246.2}

You hear of calamities by land and by sea, and they are constantly increasing. What is the matter? The Spirit of God is taken away from those who have the lives of men in their hands, and Satan is coming in to control them, because they give themselves to his control. Those who profess to be the children of God do not place themselves under the guardianship of the heavenly angels, and as Satan is a destroyer, he works through those men and they make mistakes; and they will get drunk, and because of intemperance, many times bring these terrible calamities upon us. {2SM 51.4}

Satan uses men and women as agents to solicit to sin and make it attractive. These agents he faithfully educates to so disguise sin that he can more successfully destroy souls and rob Christ of His glory. Satan is the great enemy of God and man. He transforms himself through his agents into angels of light. In the Scriptures he is called a destroyer, an accuser of the brethren, a deceiver, a liar, a tormentor, and a murderer. Satan has many in his employ, but is most successful when he can use professed Christians for his satanic work. And the greater their influence, the more elevated their position, the more knowledge they profess of God and His service, the more successfully can he use them. Whoever entices to sin is his agent. {5T 137.4}


How, if Satan is "a destroyer" can he also be "the destroyer?" That this question must be asked shows a lack of understanding of common English usages.

If you ask someone when he or she was born, you will likely hear a date--let's say "July 23." If you ask "what day was that?" You might hear something like "it was a Tuesday." But if the person is speaking about that special Tuesday, he or she might say THE Tuesday I was born...or even simply, THE day I was born. Was it "a" day? Of course it was! But it was more than "a day," it was "THE day."

Satan is the major destroyer. In this sense he is THE destroyer. That does not mean he is the only destroyer. He is also "a destroyer," for there are other "destroyers" besides him.

Indirectly, we can understand that God is "a destroyer." God is truth, right? Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life." But truth is "a destroyer!"

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
...The truth, which was to restore and renew, is a destroyer of evil; and when evil is persistently cherished, it becomes a destroyer of the sinner also. {BEcho, March 12, 1894 par. 4}


Certainly, Satan is not "the truth." But "the truth" is "a destroyer"--even of the sinner who has persistently cherished evil.

How, APL, can you reconcile this fact with your view? How can "truth" be "a destroyer" to you? Do you believe this statement?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 06:36 PM

Originally Posted By: green
I do NOT see myself as a fisherman. "A fisherman." Even less would I be "THE fisherman." But I have sometimes fished.

Do you catch that?

I do not choose to view God as "a destroyer." Even less is He "THE destroyer." But He sometimes destroys.

Does that make sense?
NO, it does not make sense to me. It may to you, but not to me. You can "choose" to view things anyway you want, but it does not change the reality. If God destroys, he IS a "A" destroyer. And what you have written describes God as "A" destroyer. And if He is "A" destroyer, my conclusion of what you have written, then Satan cannot be "THE" destroyer, because there is now not a single destroyer, but multiple, thus Satan is "A" destroyer, not "THE" destroyer.

Originally Posted By: green
I am an analytical person. I pay attention to details. I do not always choose perfect wording every time, but I do attempt to speak my thoughts with accuracy and in a way that seems to me should be clear to others. Somehow, what I say never seems clear enough to you. I feel the reason is your intentions. You do not read what I post with a desire to understand--but rather with an intent to critique and to pick apart what I say. I find no enjoyment in this "game."
I'm only taking what you have written and taking them to their logical conclusion. Take you fisherman example, but instead of fishing, change it to murdering someone. By your logic, murdering a person does not make you a murderer. Just because you have murdered in the past, does not make you a murderer. Does that make sense? NO. This is a logical conclusion of what you are trying to describe to my apparent non-analytical mind.

Moderation - you have a conflict of interest in this discussion. Sure, I guess you have the prerogative to close it, something I can't do. By your claims about your view, you "mature" view, your "analytical" view, the implications are that my views are not mature or analytical. Yet, somehow this is OK? Do you not see how this is true? Close the thread if you must. But I hope you leave all the comments, so anyone else reading the entire thread can see the logic.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 06:42 PM

APL,

Have you ever destroyed anything? I have. I guess that makes me "a destroyer." In that case, Satan cannot be the only one. But he is still "THE destroyer," because his is the chiefest part in this arena.

I notice you refrained from answering regarding the truth being "a destroyer." Why do you think Mrs. White called it that? Do you believe she was telling the truth?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 07:24 PM

Originally Posted By: green
I notice you refrained from answering regarding the truth being "a destroyer." Why do you think Mrs. White called it that? Do you believe she was telling the truth?
Did you read the WHOLE article, or did you just do a word search and quote a single line? Reading the whole article is very enlightening. Who is doing the destruction in that article?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 07:40 PM

APL,

Am I a destroyer because I have destroyed something? Can Satan be THE destroyer if I am also a destroyer?

What sayest thou?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 09:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
When God destroys, it is His "strange act." He is not THE destroyer, Satan is. The difference between "the" and "a" is tremendous.

For some reason you greatly emphasized the difference between "the" and "a". Later, you seemed to have backpedaled. Maybe your comment here is outdated now?
Quote:
Re 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. {Apollyon: that is to say, A destroyer }
(KJV)
So what do we do with the places where Ellen White says, "Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer."

Satan is A destroyer. Satan is THE destroyer. If satan is THE destroyer, does he use God to be A destroyer along with him? Or is this a case where God isn't THE destroyer nor A destroyer, but He just plain destroys?

Quote:
But there was something more for me. He spoke and said: "Satan is the destroyer, I am your Restorer. I will restore you." Then I was so happy, and so full of joy that He would restore me. I cannot remember the words that were spoken, but this is the import: Your trial is not yet ended. You will be tempted; you will have affliction; you will have suffering; but you are not to judge by this suffering that God is not your Helper. I am your Restorer. You are to look to Jesus. I did not know what the words meant. {2SAT 85.4}

Quote:
I'll throw out a challenge: If you can find one single statement from Mrs. White or the Bible that says "God is not A destroyer," I will seriously reconsider my view.
But I doubt you can you find one single statement from Mrs. White or the Bible that says "God destroys"? Whether with A or THE in it?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 10:01 PM

Quote:
But I doubt you can you find one single statement from Mrs. White or the Bible that says "God destroys"? Whether with A or THE in it?

There are no statements saying that God is a destroyer - the word, of course, has a pejorative meaning. But there are many passages which say that God destroys. Bible examples would be Eze. 28:16, 1 Cor. 3:17. Some EGW exemples would be:

The world had become so corrupt through indulgence of appetite and debased passion in the days of Noah that God destroyed its inhabitants by the waters of the Flood. {Con 24.2}

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. {DA 107.4}

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain's and in Noah's day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3}
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/23/13 11:28 PM

God punishes, destroys, and liquidates. (Excerps from Straub, "As He Is")

So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them (Gen_6:7).

And, behold, I Myself am bringing a floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die (Gen_6:17).

Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens. So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground (Gen_19:24-25).

And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt (Exo_7:3)

And He hardened Pharaoh’s heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said (Exo_7:13).

And he said to them, “Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘Let every man put his sword on his side, and go in and out from entrance to entrance throughout the camp, and let every man kill his brother, every man his companion, and every man his neighbor’” (Exo_32:27).

It was to be impressed upon Israel that in the conquest of Canaan they were not to fight for themselves, but simply as instruments to execute the will of God; not to seek for riches or self-exaltation, but the glory of Jehovah their King {PP 491}.

Like the men before the Flood, the Canaanites lived only to blaspheme Heaven and defile the earth. And both love and justice demanded the prompt execution of these rebels against God and foes to man {PP 492}.

But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city (Mat_22:7).

A careful reading of the whole parable of which this last verse is a part, and the commentary on it in Christ’s Object Lessons, pages 307-309, will show that the king is God, the armies were those of the Romans, the murderers were the Jews, and the city was Jerusalem. The text was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Therefore, the text is really saying, “And when God heard thereof, He was wroth: and God sent forth His armies, the Romans, and God destroyed the Jews, and God burned up Jerusalem.”

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them (Rev_20:9).

These statements are more than sufficient to provide the examples needed to show that there are many such Scriptures that, when interpreted according to the way our minds have been accustomed to interpret them, leave one with no option but to believe that God does use force to liquidate those who have rebelled against Him.

There are many people today (I won't mention any names) who read these texts, interpret them according to long-accustomed methods, and are quite satisfied to believe that God behaves as an executioner to those who refuse to obey His laws. But in doing so they are ignoring several things. First, there are quite a number of statements that say the opposite from what these statements are interpreted to mean. Second, there are the great principles that are embodied in the constitution of God’s government. Third, there are the terrible implications of holding such beliefs about God.

Some counter examples:

The LORD is righteous in all His ways, Gracious in all His works (Psa_145:17).

Your testimonies [commandments or laws], which You have commanded, are righteous and very faithful (Psa_119:138).

The Lord is righteous and the law is righteous. Therefore, God is what the law is. It is the “transcript of His own character” {COL 315}, and that law declares that “thou shalt not kill” (Exo_20:13, KJV). Therefore, if it is not in the law to kill, it is not in the character of God to kill. Let’s examine a number of other quotations.

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself {COL 84}.

God destroys no one {5T 120}.

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan {GC 36}.

Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree coming upon the earth, and why? The Lord’s restraining power is not exercised. The world has disregarded the word of God. They live as though there were no God. Like the inhabitants of the Noachic world, they refuse to have any thought of God. Wickedness prevails to an alarming extent, and the earth is ripe for the harvest {6T 388, 389}.

This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it {7T 141}.

In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God … will say to the angels, “No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work {RH, September 17, 1901}.

When Jesus was asked to destroy the Samaritans who had rejected Him, He replied to His disciples, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village” (Luk_9:55-56). Consider these thoughts:

There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas {DA 487}.

Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan’s government. The Lord’s principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God’s government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power {DA 759}.

The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God’s government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority {DA 22}.

We know that God does nothing that is contrary to the principles of His government. Therefore, He does not use force. This principle is stated with certainty in The Ministry of Healing: “Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer” {DA 113}.

This second list we have an emphatic and clear assertion that God is not an executioner, punisher, or destroyer. When these and the first set are viewed side by side, there does not appear to be any way of reconciling the two.

Some take these statements and loose their faith in the Bible. Others simply ignore the words and are unable to unwilling to accept.

Quoting Straub:

True students of God’s Word will not make these mistakes. They will ignore no statements, no matter how they may seem to contradict others. They will candidly acknowledge that so far as their understanding has developed, these statements remain for them a flat contradiction of each other, though by faith, they know that in God’s Word there is no real contradiction.

Undisturbed by the clamor of voices around, they will move forward in quiet faith, patiently studying God’s Word, knowing that, under God’s tutelage, such revelations of the mysteries will come to them and will remove all contradictions, providing a perfect harmony where previously only confusion existed.

There will be those who will charge these careful students with twisting the Scriptures. They will accuse them of making the Word of God say what it does not. They will argue emphatically that the Bible says, “God destroyed them.” Then they will ask, “What could be written more plainly than that?”

One might counter by saying, “It also says, ‘God destroys no man.’” This will have no effect. Their minds have been programmed to accept only that which they have chosen to believe. No impression can be made by quoting contrary statements. They merely entrench themselves more firmly behind their list while, in growing indignation, they level the charge that the plainly written words of God are being rejected.

Two things must be established at this point. One is that this problem cannot be solved by simply countering statements with other statements. Second, it cannot be resolved by twisting or changing the statements to conform to our preferred ideas. In this study great care has been taken not to do this. Even so, we still expect that the opponents of the position taken in this book will level this accusation against us. We believe it will be found that the only interpretations given to the Scriptures will be those found in the Scriptures themselves, with no private interpretation being offered.

There has been the careful and frank quoting of the two different and seemingly contradictory compilations in order to demonstrate that there is a problem which needs solving. How can this problem be solved so as to bring the thoughtful, responsible student to an accurate knowledge of what the Word of God is teaching? That is the important question which we must now study.

Faith is a steadying factor in the problem. Faith says that there are no contradictions in God’s Word. Faith says that we must take both of these statements as they read. Faith says that in due time the God of heaven Himself will provide the answers if we trust Him and continue our careful, objective study.

Then we come to the flood. The implications of the standard view of what God did in the obliteration of the human race in Noah’s day are very serious indeed. The commonly accepted view of what God did suggests that He was forced to admit that righteousness was not able to withstand the crushing tide of evil, so God and Christ were obliged to step in, exercising Their own superior physical power to reverse the tide, erase the entire company of Satan’s followers, and preserve alive only Their own.

It would be as if there was a conversation between the Father and the Son along these lines: “In the beginning We determined to fight this great controversy on the basis that righteousness could stand on its own merits. But now it is clear that sin has reached such proportions that it is on the verge of a world takeover. At the moment We only have eight subjects remaining, and in a short time, these, too, will die or join Satan’s camp, thus making him the total victor in this struggle. So we must act now by coming to the rescue of righteousness. Let us step in with our limitless, infinite power and obliterate the entire side standing for Satan. We will preserve only our own people and thus make a complete, fresh start. Thereafter, We will maintain the use of force in appropriate places to ensure that Satan never again brings the world to this same crisis point.”

This implies that God had to revise His method of dealing with the sin problem. It reveals Him as beginning in one way, but finding Himself later obliged to introduce measures not contemplated in the beginning. This makes God less than infinite, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. It means that He is not really God because God has perfect foreknowledge, needing no revisions, compromises, or changes as time goes by.

In this way we find a serious problem on our hands. Nothing can deny the clarity of the principles underlining God’s government or of His way of dealing with the sin problem. Yet, at the same time, the story of the flood seems to show a God who was later forced to introduce an element of compulsion and destruction.

Our attitude must be one of faith. We must believe implicitly that in the Word of God there are no contradictions. Those contradictions that appear as such are there only because of an inadequate understanding on our part. God will give light and understanding to those who humbly and sincerely seek it. There is a perfect reconciliation between God’s stated attitude to the sin problem and the story of the flood, as well as many other accounts of what God appears to have done in history.

Still quoting Straub:

This chapter has been devoted to the recognition that there is a very real problem to be solved because of the existence of apparent contradictions in the Word of God. At the same time, we encourage each believer to realize that there are no real contradictions in God’s Word, that the Bible is written for man’s understanding, that these problems are therefore solvable, and that simple trusting faith in God will bring clear understandings in this connection. If we are prepared to adopt this attitude, then we are ready to proceed on to the study of the way in which the problem may be solved.

One should read the rest of what Straub has to say in his book, "As He Is". It is currently a featured book here: http://www.teachservices.com/
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/24/13 12:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
But I doubt you can you find one single statement from Mrs. White or the Bible that says "God destroys"? Whether with A or THE in it?

There are no statements saying that God is a destroyer - the word, of course, has a pejorative meaning. But there are many passages which say that God destroys. Bible examples would be Eze. 28:16, 1 Cor. 3:17. Some EGW exemples would be:

The world had become so corrupt through indulgence of appetite and debased passion in the days of Noah that God destroyed its inhabitants by the waters of the Flood. {Con 24.2}

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. {DA 107.4}

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain's and in Noah's day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3}
Actually, I was asking Green. He was using a specific word phrase so he could say: How many? 0, none, no such occurrences.
So I put it right back at him.

But, if you are wanting occurrences of God is not a destroyer, the quote I listed tells that: "Satan is the destroyer, I am your Restorer. I will restore you." And what do you do with those statements?

As far as the Bible using the word, "destroy", it also says God slew Saul. But who slew Saul?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/25/13 04:37 AM

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. {DA 107.4}

God has declared that sin must be destroyed as an evil ruinous to the universe. Those who cling to sin will perish in its destruction. {COL 123.3}

These two passages are clear. Who will destroy sin? Will sin destroy itself? Will Satan destroy sin? God will destroy sin. But those who cling to sin will perish in its destruction. The death of the sinner is a result of the destruction of sin.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/25/13 04:47 AM

Is sin real and material, or is sin immaterial? If immaterial, how does it destroy real things?
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/25/13 04:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
These two passages are clear. Who will destroy sin? Will sin destroy itself? Will Satan destroy sin? God will destroy sin. But those who cling to sin will perish in its destruction. The death of the sinner is a result of the destruction of sin.
Wow, deep! You are separating the destruction of sin from sinners. And I'm not disagreeing. But, can you really detail the destruction of "sin"?

Anyway, is it possible God destroys in a fashion to how he slays?

And if God destroys, what do you do with the statement, "Satan is the destroyer, I am your Restorer. I will restore you"?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/26/13 01:20 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
I'll throw out a challenge: If you can find one single statement from Mrs. White or the Bible that says "God is not A destroyer," I will seriously reconsider my view.
But I doubt you can you find one single statement from Mrs. White or the Bible that says "God destroys"? Whether with A or THE in it?

Maybe the destructions spoken of are in past or future tense. For example:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
I was pointed back to the children of Israel anciently and saw how pure and holy the ministers of the sanctuary had to be, because they were brought by their work into a close connection with God. They that minister must be holy, pure, and without blemish, or God will destroy them. God has not changed. He is just as holy and pure, just as particular, as He ever was. Those who profess to be the ministers of Jesus should be men of experience and deep piety, and then at all times and in all places they can shed a holy influence. {EW 102.2}

Thus God will destroy the wicked from off the earth. But the righteous will be preserved in the midst of these commotions, as Noah was preserved in the ark. God will be their refuge, and under His wings shall they trust. Says the psalmist: "Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the Most High, thy habitation; there shall no evil befall thee." Psalm 91:9, 10. "In the time of trouble He shall hide me in His pavilion: in the secret of His tabernacle shall He hide me." Psalm 27:5. God's promise is, "Because he hath set his love upon Me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known My name." Psalm 91:14. {PP 110.3}


God will destroy. It is interesting that the focus of inspiration is not whether God will destroy, but how and with what attitude.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The rabbis had a saying that there is rejoicing in heaven when one who has sinned against God is destroyed; but Jesus taught that to God the work of destruction is a strange work. That in which all heaven delights is the restoration of God's own image in the souls whom He has made. {COL 190.1}

God loves to restore people. He hates to destroy them. He does the former willingly and happily. The latter, He must do, but takes no delight in it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/26/13 03:00 AM

Here is another possible way that God "destroys" His enemies:
Romans 5:10 We were God's enemies, but he made us his friends through the death of his Son.

Does not God destroy His enemies when He makes them His friend?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/27/13 04:39 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Here is another possible way that God "destroys" His enemies:
Romans 5:10 We were God's enemies, but he made us his friends through the death of his Son.

Does not God destroy His enemies when He makes them His friend?

If you are trying to couple this concept with that of my previous post, you would be promoting a universal salvation. I, on the other hand, cannot find any indication from Scripture that all will be saved.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/27/13 05:54 PM

If God would save everyone, would that upset you Green? It upset Jonah. It upset the prodigal's brother.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/27/13 07:00 PM

I'm sure GC would be happy for all to be saved, but that would contradict God's Word. It is better to accept an upsetting truth than a pleasant lie.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/28/13 06:05 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
I'm sure GC would be happy for all to be saved, but that would contradict God's Word. It is better to accept an upsetting truth than a pleasant lie.
Here is the best lie. God is going to torture you and kill you, if you do not love Him.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/28/13 10:40 AM

"If you are selfish, God's presence and glory will be torture to you and eventually destroy you." Is that true or false?
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/28/13 10:42 AM

"God is too loving to punish anyone." True or false?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/28/13 11:10 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
"God is too loving to punish anyone." True or false?
Define punish, in this context as you understand it.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/28/13 11:33 PM

I'll wait for you to answer the previous question.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/29/13 12:08 AM

As I have repeatedly quoted: "To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29." {DA 107.4}

Now my question to you, why?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/29/13 02:26 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
As I have repeatedly quoted: "To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29." {DA 107.4}

Now my question to you, why?


But you seem to separate the sinner from the sin. God's consuming fire won't after our probation has closed. This is why we are to be "tried in the fire" now. We are to allow God to burn the sin out of our lives now. Then we won't be consumed with the sin later on.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/29/13 03:25 AM

And this answers the question how?
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/29/13 05:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
I'll throw out a challenge: If you can find one single statement from Mrs. White or the Bible that says "God is not A destroyer," I will seriously reconsider my view.
But I doubt you can you find one single statement from Mrs. White or the Bible that says "God destroys"? Whether with A or THE in it?

Maybe the destructions spoken of are in past or future tense. For example:
And I note that you did not list even one quote which says, "God destroys". grin


But you are right, the question involves how does God destroy, what is His wrath. Does God destroy the way He slew Saul, or does He destroy the way you would destroy?
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/30/13 05:33 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
"If you are selfish, God's presence and glory will be torture to you and eventually destroy you." Is that true or false?

Originally Posted By: APL
As I have repeatedly quoted: "To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29." {DA 107.4}

Does that mean your answer is "True"?
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/30/13 05:51 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
And I note that you did not list even one quote which says, "God destroys". grin

I found some. It wasn't too hard. Here's one:

God destroys no one. The sinner destroys himself by his own impenitence. {FLB 58.7}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/30/13 10:39 AM

Ellen White uses Jesus' own words to help us understand the sense and timing of this. God may not now destroy. He will destroy.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
With heavenly light shining from His countenance, Christ said, "Did ye never read in the Scriptures, The Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?" What an impression these words made upon those who heard them! If they had received Christ as the Sent of God, saying, "Blessed be He that cometh in the name of the Lord. . . . Thou art my God, and I will praise Thee; Thou art my God, I will exalt Thee," how different would have been their future! But they rejected Christ, and He declared, "Therefore I say unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this Stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever It shall fall, It will grind him to powder." The husbandmen had yielded to God no returns, and in these words is portrayed their final doom. The Stone lies passive under the treatment It receives. It is discarded, stumbled over, mocked at; but at last a living power takes possession of It. It seems to rise from the earth, and falls on those who have treated It with such contempt. On those who do not fall upon It and become broken, whose hearts are not cleansed by the mercy and forgiveness of God from hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong, that Stone will fall and grind them to powder. {ST, October 31, 1900 par. 5}


Jesus here says "I will destroy," though not in those exact words. Of course, you may not think it means "destroy" if you fancy the idea of being ground into powder.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/30/13 10:40 AM

Oh, and by the way, that is part of the life of Jesus--so it certainly fits in with the "all we can know..." line that some of you interpret so strictly. I just wonder if some of us here can actually "know" this.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/30/13 07:25 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: kland
And I note that you did not list even one quote which says, "God destroys". grin

I found some. It wasn't too hard. Here's one:

God destroys no one. The sinner destroys himself by his own impenitence. {FLB 58.7}
Huh?

Maybe your comment was to Green?
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/30/13 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
though not in those exact words.
Bingo! Now perhaps you can apologize for doing the same thing to APL?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 07/31/13 04:31 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
though not in those exact words.
Bingo! Now perhaps you can apologize for doing the same thing to APL?
??? confused2

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/01/13 04:11 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
As I have repeatedly quoted: "To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29." {DA 107.4}

Now my question to you, why?
This kind of goes along with it:
Quote:
Ps 78:17 Yet they sinned still more against him, rebelling against the Most High in the desert.
18 They tested God in their heart by demanding the food they craved.
19 They spoke against God, saying, "Can God spread a table in the wilderness?
20 He smote the rock so that water gushed out and streams overflowed. Can he also give bread, or provide meat for his people?"
21 Therefore, when the LORD heard, he was full of wrath; a fire was kindled against Jacob, his anger mounted against Israel;
22 because they had no faith in God, and did not trust his saving power.
23 Yet he commanded the skies above, and opened the doors of heaven;
24 and he rained down upon them manna to eat, and gave them the grain of heaven.
25 Man ate of the bread of the angels; he sent them food in abundance.
26 He caused the east wind to blow in the heavens, and by his power he led out the south wind;
27 he rained flesh upon them like dust, winged birds like the sand of the seas;
28 he let them fall in the midst of their camp, all around their habitations.
29 And they ate and were well filled, for he gave them what they craved.
30 But before they had sated their craving, while the food was still in their mouths,
31 the anger of God rose against them and he slew the strongest of them, and laid low the picked men of Israel.
And what happened in that case? Any fire?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/01/13 06:00 PM

And HOW did God slay the strongest of the picked men of Israel?
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/02/13 07:37 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: kland
And I note that you did not list even one quote which says, "God destroys". grin

I found some. It wasn't too hard. Here's one:

God destroys no one. The sinner destroys himself by his own impenitence. {FLB 58.7}
Huh?

Maybe your comment was to Green?

You were the one asking for one, weren't you?

Do you believe this means that the sinner will kill himself in the end? That does not sound reasonable. Why would he do that?
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/03/13 12:55 AM

I had asked for a quote with the exact Green type of phrase, "God destroys". You listed one which says God does not destroy, hence my, "huh?".

Are you saying it's an either or: the sinner will kill himself or God will kill him? Is being destroyed the same thing as killing?
How about "perish"?
Posted By: James Peterson

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/03/13 04:29 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
I had asked for a quote with the exact Green type of phrase, "God destroys". You listed one which says God does not destroy, hence my, "huh?".

Are you saying it's an either or: the sinner will kill himself or God will kill him? Is being destroyed the same thing as killing?
How about "perish"?


God HIMSELF destroys.

Jesus said, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy BOTH SOUL AND BODY in hell." (Mat. 10:28)

Luke put it more plainly: "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, AFTER HE HAS KILLED, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!" (Luke 12:5)
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/03/13 06:04 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Are you saying it's an either or: the sinner will kill himself or God will kill him?

Well, we know that the impenitent will die eternally. At least I think we do. So what kills them?

It could be God. Revelation 20:9 says, "And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them." That sounds pretty fatal.

It could be the sinner himself. FLB 58.7 says, "The sinner destroys himself by his own impenitence." That sounds pretty fatal.

Whose will is it that the unrepentant sinner will die? Is there another agent out there that will fulfill this will?

Originally Posted By: kland
Is being destroyed the same thing as killing?
How about "perish"?

Destroy, consume, kill, perish could all mean the same thing. But sometimes they don't.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/03/13 06:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Oh, and by the way, that is part of the life of Jesus--so it certainly fits in with the "all we can know..." line that some of you interpret so strictly.

Yes, Christ's life extends well beyond the 3 decades He spent here. We need to learn from ALL of it.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/05/13 11:26 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: kland
Are you saying it's an either or: the sinner will kill himself or God will kill him?

Well, we know that the impenitent will die eternally. At least I think we do. So what kills them?

It could be God. Revelation 20:9 says, "And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them." That sounds pretty fatal.

It could be the sinner himself. FLB 58.7 says, "The sinner destroys himself by his own impenitence." That sounds pretty fatal.

Whose will is it that the unrepentant sinner will die? Is there another agent out there that will fulfill this will?

Originally Posted By: kland
Is being destroyed the same thing as killing?
How about "perish"?

Destroy, consume, kill, perish could all mean the same thing. But sometimes they don't.
Could it be that this is one of those times where perish does not mean the same thing as actively and intentionally killing? That by refusing to partake of the source of life, they perish.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/06/13 05:18 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Could it be that this is one of those times where perish does not mean the same thing as actively and intentionally killing? That by refusing to partake of the source of life, they perish.

I don't know what quote you are talking about. There was no "perish" in the quote I gave. Here it is again:

God destroys no one. The sinner destroys himself by his own impenitence. {FLB 58.7}

So, what is your assertion regarding "destroy" here? Do you believe, as I do, that in the end, the impenitent will be destroyed? Similarly, do you believe, as I do, that in the end, the impenitent will be dead?
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/07/13 12:40 AM

Ok. Your quote states: God destroys no one.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/07/13 01:12 AM

Right. So does anyone do the destroying? Would that be synonymous with killing in this context?
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/09/13 05:26 PM

It says the sinner destroys himself by his own impenitence. Whether this is one of those cases where you say destroying means killing or one of those cases where you say it doesn't, I do not know.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/09/13 05:29 PM

Here's something I came across:
Quote:
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
What does it mean to make his ministers a flame of fire?
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/09/13 09:45 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
It says the sinner destroys himself by his own impenitence. Whether this is one of those cases where you say destroying means killing or one of those cases where you say it doesn't, I do not know.

So, we have two options here:
  • destroying = killing
  • destroying = destructive non-killing

And this leaves us with two interpretations:
  • God does not kill. The sinner kills himself.
  • God does not "destructive non-kill." The sinner "destructive non-kills" himself.

The first option says that the sinner gives himself eternal death; it's not God's doing. The second option leaves it possible that God is responsible for making sure that there are no immortal sinners.

Which option do you think EGW was teaching here? I go with the second option.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/10/13 10:33 AM

Arnold,

You mean you don't believe that sinners want to clean up their own mess? Sinners won't be honorable enough to "self destruct" for the sake of having a pure universe again?

Oh...I though God would be off the hook and not need to do anything more than watch until everything was automagically made right again. In fact, how is it that the sinners are raised to life again? Can sin just do that too?

Why would God have been on trial in such a scenario, anyhow?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/10/13 04:43 PM

Quote:
To do what God tells us not to do, or not to do what He tells us to do, is to go in the way of death. This is not because God punishes with death those who do not obey Him, but because sin itself brings forth death. Sin is the evil seed of which death is the bitter fruit. {June 12, 1902 EJW, PTUK 378.6}
This was proven on the cross.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/11/13 11:43 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Quote:
To do what God tells us not to do, or not to do what He tells us to do, is to go in the way of death. This is not because God punishes with death those who do not obey Him, but because sin itself brings forth death. Sin is the evil seed of which death is the bitter fruit. {June 12, 1902 EJW, PTUK 378.6}
This was proven on the cross.

Jesus was sinless. Somehow He died anyway. We are told how this happened.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
What a truth is presented as we gaze upon Jesus in connection with the cross of Calvary, as we see this Wonderful, this Counselor, this mysterious Victim, stooping beneath the amazing burden of our race! That the transgressor might have another trial, that men might be brought into favor with God the Father, the eternal Son of God interposed Himself to bear the punishment of transgression. One clothed with humanity, who was yet one with the Deity, was our ransom. The very earth shook and reeled at the spectacle of God's dear Son suffering the wrath of God for man's transgression. The heavens were clothed in sackcloth to hide the sight of the Divine Sufferer. {LHU 153.3}

The love of a holy God is an amazing principle, which can stir the universe in our behalf during the hours of our probation and trial. But after the season of our probation, if we are found transgressors of God's law, the God of love will be found a minister of vengeance. God makes no compromise with sin. The disobedient will be punished. The wrath of God fell upon His beloved Son as Christ hung upon the cross of Calvary in the transgressor's place. The love of God now reaches out to embrace the lowest, vilest sinner that will come to Christ with contrition. It reaches out to transform the sinner into an obedient, faithful child of God; but not a soul can be saved if he continues in sin. {1SM 313.1}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/11/13 06:42 PM

Originally Posted By: green
Jesus was sinless. Somehow He died anyway. We are told how this happened.
This is a remarkable admission on your part that you have no idea how it happened, for what say the scriptures? 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed. 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and to them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin to salvation. Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses. EGW: "By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. " And it is a mystery why He died? Some how he died anyway? Did the Father execute the son? This is a pagan idea. Take all of what she writes, don't just pick and choose!
Originally Posted By: EGW
Had his suffering consisted in bodily pain alone, then his death was no more painful than that of some of the martyrs; but bodily pain was only a small part of the agony of the beloved Son of God as he hung upon the cross. The sins of the world were upon him, and also the sense of his Father's wrath against the sinner, as he suffered the penalty of the law. It was these that crushed his divine soul. It was the hiding of his Father's face, a feeling that his own dear Father had forsaken him as he drank the cup which the sinner so richly merited, that brought despair to his soul. The separation that sin makes between God and man was fully realized and keenly felt by the innocent, suffering Man of Calvary. He was oppressed by the powers of darkness, and had not one ray of light to brighten the future. His mental agony on this account was so great that man can have but a faint conception of it. {BEcho, January 1, 1887 par. 9}
The Father DID NOT execute the sin. SIN killed the Son of God, our sin-bearer.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/11/13 07:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
You mean you don't believe that sinners want to clean up their own mess?

I'm fairly certain the sin does not clean up after itself. I think God cleans up.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/11/13 07:27 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Quote:
To do what God tells us not to do, or not to do what He tells us to do, is to go in the way of death. This is not because God punishes with death those who do not obey Him, but because sin itself brings forth death. Sin is the evil seed of which death is the bitter fruit. {June 12, 1902 EJW, PTUK 378.6}
This was proven on the cross.

And who makes the seeds grow and bear fruit? Doesn't the Bible say that we plant the seeds, we may even water, but God is responsible for growth?

If left to my natural desires, I would love to plant the seeds of sin but never let them bear fruit. Apparently, the fruit-bearing is beyond the sinner's control.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/11/13 08:24 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
You mean you don't believe that sinners want to clean up their own mess?

I'm fairly certain the sin does not clean up after itself. I think God cleans up.
"fairly certain"? Why the hedge?

May I paraphrase what you said, then you tell me if I got it right?

Paraphrase of arnold: "I'm fairly certain the wages of sin is execution by God because sin does not kill the sinner".

There - did I get it right?
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/11/13 08:54 PM

No. Read the post just above your last one. That should improve your paraphrase. Go ahead and give it another shot.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/11/13 09:12 PM

Yes - I think my paraphrase was right.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/12/13 02:06 AM

You paraphrase the intent of MY statement. I tell you it's wrong. Yet you continue to hold your opinion. You are going to believe what you "think" rather than what the author says.

If you will misinterpret and misrepresent someone who is still able to be asked for verification, and who already told you that you are wrong, I shudder to think what you do to dead people like Moses, Paul, Peter, and EGW. As I said before, you hermeneutic is broken, but you are too arrogant to acknowledge it.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/12/13 03:32 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
You paraphrase the intent of MY statement. I tell you it's wrong. Yet you continue to hold your opinion. You are going to believe what you "think" rather than what the author says.

If you will misinterpret and misrepresent someone who is still able to be asked for verification, and who already told you that you are wrong, I shudder to think what you do to dead people like Moses, Paul, Peter, and EGW. As I said before, you hermeneutic is broken, but you are too arrogant to acknowledge it.
Then correct it in simple terms. Show me where I am wrong. The statement I paraphrased is not clear at all. clear it up.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/12/13 06:48 AM

That shows another one of your problems: You are a selective reader. You pick and choose what you want. And if you read something disagreeable to you, you simply blur your eyes and see what you want to see. A true scientist would be appalled, much more a true theologian.

I already told you what to read. But you choose to remain on shaky ground. Let me spoon feed you what you conveniently missed, which should clear things up if you are an honest investigator:

And who makes the seeds grow and bear fruit? Doesn't the Bible say that we plant the seeds, we may even water, but God is responsible for growth?

If left to my natural desires, I would love to plant the seeds of sin but never let them bear fruit. Apparently, the fruit-bearing is beyond the sinner's control.


Now try to understand what I am saying, rather than forcing your a priori conclusions. Let's try to have a semblance of integrity and objectivity.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/12/13 07:09 AM

Arnold,

If that is a test for APL, should it be cheating to peek at Galatians 6:7?

smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/12/13 07:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Arnold,

If that is a test for APL, should it be cheating to peek at Galatians 6:7?

smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
HOW is it reaped? Does God have to inflict the pain and suffering. After all, sin does not do it, right?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/12/13 07:28 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
That shows another one of your problems: You are a selective reader. You pick and choose what you want. And if you read something disagreeable to you, you simply blur your eyes and see what you want to see. A true scientist would be appalled, much more a true theologian.

I already told you what to read. But you choose to remain on shaky ground. Let me spoon feed you what you conveniently missed, which should clear things up if you are an honest investigator:

And who makes the seeds grow and bear fruit? Doesn't the Bible say that we plant the seeds, we may even water, but God is responsible for growth?

If left to my natural desires, I would love to plant the seeds of sin but never let them bear fruit. Apparently, the fruit-bearing is beyond the sinner's control.


Now try to understand what I am saying, rather than forcing your a priori conclusions. Let's try to have a semblance of integrity and objectivity.
Oh I read it, but still is not clear. That is why I asked for a paraphrase. I'm not sure who is more blind, which of use has the log? I guess you think it is me. You are probably right. But one thing I do know, and that is what kind of God I worship. He was not condescending to those who were the greatest sinners. Sinners were attracted to Him. The theologians of His day however, mocked Him and rejected Him, and did the same to His followers.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/12/13 07:54 AM

Yes, sinners were attracted to Jesus, if you don't count the proud church leaders as sinners. Anyway, if you are attempting to approach truth as a true sinner would, then I would not venture to guess at your success. Since my "Damascus Road" experience, I have never tried to do anything as a sinner would.

And do you know which sin it is to try to interpret an author, then the author tells you that your interpretation is wrong, then you still stick with your wrong interpretation? It is the most incurable of sins.

I'll give my own interpretation when I have more time. Maybe tomorrow. I hope I get it right.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/12/13 08:27 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
HOW is it reaped? Does God have to inflict the pain and suffering. After all, sin does not do it, right?


WHO is not mocked?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/12/13 08:34 AM

Are you saying, if we mock God, He will take retribution on you?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/12/13 08:36 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Are you saying, if we mock God, He will take retribution on you?

APL,

The Bible says He won't be mocked. In other words, justice will come. You won't find a loophole out of getting what you have sown. You'll get it. You can't cheat the harvest.

You cannot mock God. There's no "if" involved here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/12/13 08:43 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Yes, sinners were attracted to Jesus, if you don't count the proud church leaders as sinners. Anyway, if you are attempting to approach truth as a true sinner would, then I would not venture to guess at your success. Since my "Damascus Road" experience, I have never tried to do anything as a sinner would.

And do you know which sin it is to try to interpret an author, then the author tells you that your interpretation is wrong, then you still stick with your wrong interpretation? It is the most incurable of sins.

I'll give my own interpretation when I have more time. Maybe tomorrow. I hope I get it right.
You are still judgmental and condescending, like us sinners. Why is that? Was Paul like that after his Damascus road? No.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/12/13 06:38 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
You are still judgmental and condescending, like us sinners. Why is that? Was Paul like that after his Damascus road? No.

I say something. You interpret it. I say you're wrong. You say I'm wrong and you're right. Now I am condescending? Get real.

You want me to wax Paulesque? Here you go: O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?

That's Acts 13:10. It applies now as it did to Elymas. I should have told you that long ago, so you might have seen sooner that Satan is using you to accuse the brethren. You are not seeking for truth or unity. You twist people's words to suit your tastes. And what you expect of others, you hypocritically ignore for yourself. In spite of your recent humility, counting yourself a sinner, you condemn those who do not measure up to your standard. We have seen you for too long to be that easily swayed.

For your eternal sake, please stop it. Get the eye salve, get the robe, get the oil.

Satan will tell you, "Oh, poor you. That mean Arnold is judging you. He's condescending. He's bad." Submit to God, resist the Devil, and he will flee from you. For once, look at what you have been doing honestly. See for yourself what Satan has been doing to you. Your eternal destiny is in the balance.

And take some time to look around. You will see that GC and I don't agree on everything. But he and I don't do to each other what you have been doing to everyone who disagrees with you. There is a way to disagree that leads to a fuller understanding of the Truth.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/12/13 06:47 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
I say something. You interpret it. I say you're wrong. You say I'm wrong and you're right. Now I am condescending? Get real.
I'm not limiting my remarks to the last few comments. My comments have to do with your usual method.

Originally Posted By: asygo
And take some time to look around. You will see that GC and I don't agree on everything. But he and I don't do to each other what you have been doing to everyone who disagrees with you. There is a way to disagree that leads to a fuller understanding of the Truth.
Should I then mirror your methods? Really?
Originally Posted By: asygo
For your eternal sake, please stop it. Get the eye salve, get the robe, get the oil.
Are your eyes without logs? Is that what you want me to believe?

You still have not clarified your position on which these last comments are bases. Please, I'm all ears.

Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/12/13 07:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
You cannot mock God. There's no "if" involved here.
That's interesting you bring up mocking God. Didn't just last week you mock Him?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/13/13 05:22 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
You cannot mock God. There's no "if" involved here.
That's interesting you bring up mocking God. Didn't just last week you mock Him?

No. At least, not knowingly. Your accusation seems geared only to provoke. Please do not post messages like this.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/13/13 08:24 AM

Let's review recent history.

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
I'm fairly certain the sin does not clean up after itself. I think God cleans up.

Paraphrase of arnold: "I'm fairly certain the wages of sin is execution by God because sin does not kill the sinner".

I wrote 2 days before your paraphrase:
Originally Posted By: asygo
Paul said that the wages of sin is death. So if Eve had sinned, then she should have died.

I know you read this because you replied to it. Yet, somehow, you still think that "sin does not kill the sinner" is an accurate representation of my beliefs. Should we conclude that this is the quality of your scholarship? If so, you have no business writing about anything at all.

But based on your work so far, I think you are far more intelligent than that. So what is going on here? It may be that you are so impressed by your own opinion that you are blinded to everything that contradicts it. Until recently, I was pretty sure this was the problem.

But it might be much worse than that. Like Elymas, you might have allowed Satan to so control you that you are merely a prisoner of his will. I have difficulty believing that the level of baseless accusations I have recently seen from you in multiple threads can come from merely human impulses. If it is only human, then my opinion of human depravity is much too high. But if it comes from the master Accuser and you are merely his tool, there is much more to worry about than your damaged DNA.

Please consider this carefully. The path you tread leads to certain suffering.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/13/13 06:04 PM

You have not clarified my paraphrase. You say, that I think that "sin does not kill the sinner" is an accurate representation your beliefs. Don't digress into judgment of me, just clarify your position. Does sin kill the sinner, full stop, or is God the executioner. And as a bonus question, what killed Jesus? Was it sin or execution by God? Since Jesus died the death of a sinner, that should answer the question.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/13/13 06:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
You cannot mock God. There's no "if" involved here.
That's interesting you bring up mocking God. Didn't just last week you mock Him?

No. At least, not knowingly. Your accusation seems geared only to provoke. Please do not post messages like this.
Not true. Your denial does not help your case. See #154748. Gregory called you on it too.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/13/13 09:09 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
You have not clarified my paraphrase. You say, that I think that "sin does not kill the sinner" is an accurate representation your beliefs. Don't digress into judgment of me, just clarify your position.

I said, "Paul said that the wages of sin is death. So if Eve had sinned, then she should have died." Then I said, "I'm fairly certain the sin does not clean up after itself. I think God cleans up."

From that, you think I meant, "Sin does not kill the sinner." Where do you get that? I didn't say such a thing, so you must have inserted it yourself. Whether it came from your own ideas or Satan gave it to you. In any case, you are the tool to insert that into the discussion. That is eisegesis.

Are you that blind? Or are you doing that on purpose? Either way, true discussion is impossible under such circumstances. You are merely causing strife. Satan is very happy with that, but I don't intend to dally with him or his tools.

If you really want to study, then stop the foolishness. If you want to continue to misconstrue and misrepresent, do it with someone else.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/13/13 10:25 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
You have not clarified my paraphrase. You say, that I think that "sin does not kill the sinner" is an accurate representation your beliefs. Don't digress into judgment of me, just clarify your position.

I said, "Paul said that the wages of sin is death. So if Eve had sinned, then she should have died." Then I said, "I'm fairly certain the sin does not clean up after itself. I think God cleans up."

From that, you think I meant, "Sin does not kill the sinner." Where do you get that? I didn't say such a thing, so you must have inserted it yourself. Whether it came from your own ideas or Satan gave it to you. In any case, you are the tool to insert that into the discussion. That is eisegesis.

Are you that blind? Or are you doing that on purpose? Either way, true discussion is impossible under such circumstances. You are merely causing strife. Satan is very happy with that, but I don't intend to dally with him or his tools.

If you really want to study, then stop the foolishness. If you want to continue to misconstrue and misrepresent, do it with someone else.
I agree, this is a waste of time. You just spent 4 paragraphs, and did not clear a thing. You have nicely laid out what you said, which is vague. You said sin does not cleanup after itself. This can be either after the death or before the death of the sinner. But taken with what you have said in the past, I think my paraphrase is still correct.

Perhaps you'd do better with a new or no question. One LAST try:
Is the death of the sinner in the end, execution by God: Yes or No?
Is sin the direct cause of death of the sinner: Yes or No?
Is sin the direct cause of death of Christ: Yes or No?

There, your reply can be simply three words. And it would be a Biblical response.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/14/13 12:54 AM

I think everybody agrees that sin is the cause of death; what not everybody agrees is that sin is the instrument of death, or at least, the sole instrument of death. In the end, the death of sinners will happen owing to the fatal combination of sin with the glory of God.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/14/13 03:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
I think everybody agrees that sin is the cause of death; what not everybody agrees is that sin is the instrument of death, or at least, the sole instrument of death. In the end, the death of sinners will happen owing to the fatal combination of sin with the glory of God.
What killed the Son of God? He died the death that a sinner dies. Is that not a sufficient answer as to how God is involved???
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/14/13 05:33 AM

APL,
God's glory is His character, His holiness, His wrath, His attributes, which are the antithesis of sin and reprove sin. The manifestation of God's displeasure because of iniquity crushes out the life of the sinner.

God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. {DD 16.4}

Were the law understood apart from Christ, it would have a crushing power upon sinful men, blotting the sinner out of existence. {LHU 158.2}
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/14/13 06:39 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
That's interesting you bring up mocking God. Didn't just last week you mock Him?

No. At least, not knowingly. Your accusation seems geared only to provoke. Please do not post messages like this.
Not true. Your denial does not help your case. See #154748. Gregory called you on it too.


I have not mocked God. God is not pleased with others who have done so, nor with those who would falsely accuse me of such. The post you refer to is below quoted in full, that all may see it for what it was.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
Green misused that verse in the past. It has nothing to do with clean or unclean food.

It's the modern versions, not Green Cochoa, that have misused this verse.
Originally Posted By: asygo
It has nothing to do with clean or unclean food. All it is saying is what goes into your mouth does not defile you because it just goes to your stomach then goes out. Defilement is from what comes out of your mouth, which Jesus says originates from the heart. In short, defilement is a matter of the heart, not the stomach.

Well said. This was the concept that many did not understand. I was saying the opposite of what kland appears to recall me saying in a past thread. The thread had to do with Bible versions, where the modern ones make the text declare all foods clean--which the text had nothing to do with as kland now correctly states.

Again, this is one of those sources of "new theology." Bible versions. Let's check the facts on this text again quickly:

Originally Posted By: Authorised Version of the Bible (KJV)
Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? (Mark 7:19, KJV)

VERSUS
Originally Posted By: Not Inspired Version (NIV)
For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean.”) (Mark 7:19, NIV)

Originally Posted By: Not A Safe Bible (NASB)
because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" ({Thus He} declared all foods clean.) (Mark 7:19, NASB)

Originally Posted By: Another Sketchy Version (ASV)
because it goeth not into his heart, but into his belly, and goeth out into the draught? `This he said', making all meats clean. (Mark 7:19, ASV)


"Purging" does not mean "making the meats clean." I know that some animals return to their feces and consume some of them because B12 is manufactured in the colon, beyond the point of absorption in the small intestine, but I am happy to not be one of those animals. I would certainly not view my "draught" as "clean" by virtue of the fact that it had left my body!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Who is mocking God by saying that Jesus declared all meats clean? Are we to think that there is no such thing anymore as unclean meats? What then becomes of the health message God gave His people through Mrs. White? Is that now suddenly false? Will one, for love of the modern versions, be led to reject her writings?

How can you accuse me of mocking? If the Bible is God's Word, it will speak according to it. If it does not speak according to His Word, it is because there is no light in them.

Gregory has not been able to muster an answer to the questions I asked regarding those error-filled translations. He has not dared to admit that those verses have falsehoods embedded in them. He is unable to answer on this matter, for he knows I have support for my position.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/14/13 08:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
APL,
God's glory is His character, His holiness, His wrath, His attributes, which are the antithesis of sin and reprove sin. The manifestation of God's displeasure because of iniquity crushes out the life of the sinner.

God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. {DD 16.4}

Were the law understood apart from Christ, it would have a crushing power upon sinful men, blotting the sinner out of existence. {LHU 158.2}
See! It is not God doing the killing. That is the point. That is what I have been saying all along. The CROSS answers the question! Look at how Jesus died. Was it execution by God? NO! And HOW is does the punishment come about?

We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death. {1888 1576.1}
Posted By: dedication

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/14/13 09:10 AM

Originally Posted By: APL

[Is the death of the sinner in the end, execution by God: Yes or No?
Is sin the direct cause of death of the sinner: Yes or No?
Is sin the direct cause of death of Christ: Yes or No?

#1. Yes, Rev. 20 fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.....And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

#2. Yes, God has supplied abundantly for the redemption of every human being to escape eternal death which is the sure end of sin. Clinging to sin is the cause why they find themselves in the devouring fire. Like Asygo said, "sin does not clean up after itself", God will clean up by sending fire down from heaven to burn up everything contaminated by sin, the whole earth and even the "heavens" around the earth, will be cleansed, and sin will be no more ever again.

#3. Yes, taking our sins upon Him and being separated from His Father because of the sin, broke Christ's heart. Yet, He gave up His life willingly -- nothing could have taken life away from Him if He had not given it up willingly. Thus He sacrificed His life so we might have redemption and life.

I really don't think the wicked will die of a broken heart because they are separated from God or because of a genuine horror over all the sins upon them. They are eager to march on the city and take it by force and set things up after their own liking. They regret suffering the consequences of sin and losing out, not being able to enjoy the bounties of God's eternal kingdom. That will be a suffering intense enough, (the whole "could have been" agony) but not equal to the agony Christ suffered because of our sins.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/14/13 05:44 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: APL

[Is the death of the sinner in the end, execution by God: Yes or No?
Is sin the direct cause of death of the sinner: Yes or No?
Is sin the direct cause of death of Christ: Yes or No?

#1. Yes, Rev. 20 fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.....And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

#2. Yes, God has supplied abundantly for the redemption of every human being to escape eternal death which is the sure end of sin. Clinging to sin is the cause why they find themselves in the devouring fire. Like Asygo said, "sin does not clean up after itself", God will clean up by sending fire down from heaven to burn up everything contaminated by sin, the whole earth and even the "heavens" around the earth, will be cleansed, and sin will be no more ever again.

#3. Yes, taking our sins upon Him and being separated from His Father because of the sin, broke Christ's heart. Yet, He gave up His life willingly -- nothing could have taken life away from Him if He had not given it up willingly. Thus He sacrificed His life so we might have redemption and life.

I really don't think the wicked will die of a broken heart because they are separated from God or because of a genuine horror over all the sins upon them. They are eager to march on the city and take it by force and set things up after their own liking. They regret suffering the consequences of sin and losing out, not being able to enjoy the bounties of God's eternal kingdom. That will be a suffering intense enough, (the whole "could have been" agony) but not equal to the agony Christ suffered because of our sins.


Everything, EVERYTHING, we need to know or indeed can know about God, has been revealed by Christ's life on this planet.
Originally Posted By: EGW
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him." John 1:18. {8T 286.2}

Taking humanity upon Him, Christ came to be one with humanity and at the same time to reveal our heavenly Father to sinful human beings. {8T 286.2}

Did Jesus reveal the Father as an executioner? No. In fact, Christ revealed that it is sin that kills, not God. That is what we know about the death of the sinner. Everything must be interpret from the viewpoint of Christ.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/14/13 06:18 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
I agree, this is a waste of time. You just spent 4 paragraphs, and did not clear a thing. You have nicely laid out what you said, which is vague. You said sin does not cleanup after itself. This can be either after the death or before the death of the sinner. But taken with what you have said in the past, I think my paraphrase is still correct.

So you think you understand what I have said in the past better than I do. Are you paying attention to yourself? Does that even make any sense?

You have not repented of your fabricating of falsehoods. Instead, you are holding onto your pride like it was a lifeboat. While you do that, you refuse to hear anything. So, though it would be easy to answer your questions, I will not enetertain them, or you, or Satan.

Satan is using you as a club to batter his enemies. He is lying through you. He is accusing through you. I will no longer converse with him through you.

You think this is about theology, but it is really about slavery. I hope someone else can help you see your perilous condition. If kland has found favir in our eyes, maybe he can help. This is more important than doctrinal wrestling.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/14/13 09:03 PM

Green, calling the Bible uninspired.

If that is not mocking God, I don't know what is.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/14/13 09:15 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: APL

[Is the death of the sinner in the end, execution by God: Yes or No?
Is sin the direct cause of death of the sinner: Yes or No?
Is sin the direct cause of death of Christ: Yes or No?

#1. Yes, Rev. 20 fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.....And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

#2. Yes, God has supplied abundantly for the redemption of every human being to escape eternal death which is the sure end of sin. Clinging to sin is the cause why they find themselves in the devouring fire. Like Asygo said, "sin does not clean up after itself", God will clean up by sending fire down from heaven to burn up everything contaminated by sin, the whole earth and even the "heavens" around the earth, will be cleansed, and sin will be no more ever again.

a=b, c=b, therefore a=c

So we have:
God executes the sinner.
Sin is the direct cause of the death of the sinner.

Therefore, we shall conclude: God is sin.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/14/13 09:34 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
I agree, this is a waste of time. You just spent 4 paragraphs, and did not clear a thing. You have nicely laid out what you said, which is vague. You said sin does not cleanup after itself. This can be either after the death or before the death of the sinner. But taken with what you have said in the past, I think my paraphrase is still correct.

So you think you understand what I have said in the past better than I do. Are you paying attention to yourself? Does that even make any sense?

You have not repented of your fabricating of falsehoods. Instead, you are holding onto your pride like it was a lifeboat. While you do that, you refuse to hear anything. So, though it would be easy to answer your questions, I will not enetertain them, or you, or Satan.

Satan is using you as a club to batter his enemies. He is lying through you. He is accusing through you. I will no longer converse with him through you.

You think this is about theology, but it is really about slavery. I hope someone else can help you see your perilous condition. If kland has found favir in our eyes, maybe he can help. This is more important than doctrinal wrestling.
Is it not interesting that Satan accused God of his own characteristics? You now provide another reply without clarification. Can you state your position clearly? Does God execute the sinner? A simple answer, yes or no will suffice.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/15/13 11:53 PM

A 1578 handbook for inquisitors spelled out the purpose of inquisitorial penalties: . . . quoniam punitio non refertur primo & per se in correctionem & bonum eius qui punitur, sed in bonum publicum ut alij terreantur, & a malis committendis avocentur. [Translation from the Latin: ". . . for punishment does not take place primarily and per se for the correction and good of the person punished, but for the public good in order that others may become terrified and weaned away from the evils they would commit. "][6]
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/16/13 07:32 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Green, calling the Bible uninspired.

If that is not mocking God, I don't know what is.

What inspires men to call upon themselves the seven last plagues by changing God's Word? Have you read the last verses of the book lately? And who has mocked God by directly defying those verses?

I refuse to call "inspired" that which was done in direct opposition to God's will. Please help me see why you feel this is an inappropriate position--if you believe it is.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/19/13 12:23 AM

Quote:
Everything, EVERYTHING, we need to know or indeed can know about God, has been revealed by Christ's life on this planet.
Originally Posted By: EGW
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

Does anyone else see the concept that was added to the SOP quote?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/19/13 08:18 AM

Let me quote more:
Originally Posted By: EGW
Christ's Revelation of God

All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him." John 1:18. {8T 286.2}

Taking humanity upon Him, Christ came to be one with humanity and at the same time to reveal our heavenly Father to sinful human beings. He was in all things made like unto His brethren. He became flesh, even as we are. He was hungry and thirsty and weary. He was sustained by food and refreshed by sleep. He shared the lot of men, and yet He was the blameless Son of God. He was a stranger and sojourner on the earth--in the world, but not of the world; tempted and tried as men and women today are tempted and tried, yet living a life free from sin. {8T 286.3}

Tender, compassionate, sympathetic, ever considerate of others, He represented the character of God, and was constantly engaged in service for God and man. {8T 286.4}

"The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, . . . full of grace and truth." Verse 14. {8T 286.5}

"Unto the men whom Thou gavest Me out of the world,'' He said, "I manifested Thy name," "that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them." John 17:6, A. R. V., 26. {8T 286.6}

"Love your enemies," He bade them; "bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven;" "for He is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." "He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." "Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." Matthew 5:44-45; Luke 6:35-36. {8T 286.7}
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/19/13 05:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I refuse to call "inspired" that which was done in direct opposition to God's will. Please help me see why you feel this is an inappropriate position--if you believe it is.
Green, the Bible is not in direct opposition to God's will. Kind of reminds me of, God is not the destroyer because he is the destroyer.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/19/13 05:52 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Quote:
Everything, EVERYTHING, we need to know or indeed can know about God, has been revealed by Christ's life on this planet.
Originally Posted By: EGW
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

Does anyone else see the concept that was added to the SOP quote?
You're going to have to help me here. In what way does "everything that man needs to know" include more or less or means something different than "all that man needs to know"?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/19/13 06:00 PM

I'm going to guess what asygo is trying to implicate - - It is not the "everything" as that is included in the "all". It is the "Christ's life on this planet" statement. I'll bet that is what he is trying to implicate. But, the context is clear, it is Christ's life as he lived it as a man on this planet that is the answer. John 14:9 is clear, it is his life on this planet.

But perhaps, asygo has some more great insight to share.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/20/13 08:23 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I refuse to call "inspired" that which was done in direct opposition to God's will. Please help me see why you feel this is an inappropriate position--if you believe it is.
Green, the Bible is not in direct opposition to God's will. Kind of reminds me of, God is not the destroyer because he is the destroyer.

I agree. But what is "the Bible?"

I would not include the following errors as "the Bible."

1) Abolishing God's law
2) Saying we must continue to sin
3) Omitting verses of God's Word in order to remove doctrines, such as the doctrine of fasting
4) Calling all meats clean
5) Saying we can "look but don't touch" instead of saying we should not see their nakedness
6) Saying that the sacrifices were for "involuntary" sins instead of "sins of ignorance," as if there were no difference
7) Saying the seventh-day sabbath is just "a sabbath"
8) Removing the clear evening-to-evening definition of the sabbath
9) Undermining the divinity of Christ and His origination
10) etc. ad infinitum.

In short, I don't call error "scripture."

May God have mercy on those who bow to such errors, calling them scripture, when all of the facts were right there in front of them to teach them the truth. Unfortunately, believing a lie won't save anyone.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/20/13 08:32 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Quote:
Everything, EVERYTHING, we need to know or indeed can know about God, has been revealed by Christ's life on this planet.
Originally Posted By: EGW
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

Does anyone else see the concept that was added to the SOP quote?

I certainly do.

Why is it that those who severely restrict their diets seem, as a consequence, to restrict their thinking as well? The mind is affected by the body. Health of both must be mutually maintained.

Ellen White states TWO sources for the "all that man needs to know or can know of God" statement:

1) the life of His Son
2) the character of His Son

Either I have been taught a lie all of my life, or "His Son" refers to Jesus, and Jesus is alive today and has always existed. Also, His character is revealed in His law, and through all of the prophets speaking to us. Moses was privileged to witness some of it personally, and he recorded his encounter for us.

Now, if I choose to limit my thinking to a narrow window of time, by putting blinders upon my own face, how intelligent is that?

My Jesus is ALIVE! Anything necessary for me to know about God, He can reveal to me!

What Mrs. White is saying is simply this: It has been Jesus all along who has been revealing the Father to us: Jesus in the Old Testament, Jesus in the New Testament, and Jesus in her own writings. Praise God!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/20/13 05:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I agree. But what is "the Bible?"

I would not include the following errors as "the Bible."

4) Calling all meats clean
Why do some who reject the health message, (and make ad hominem attacks and go off subject), fail to understand what others have pointed out to them regarding this verse?

Green, what you are talking here on your little list is English. You are disputing English words and not manuscripts. You waver from one side to the other which indicates to me you don't really understand what you're saying.

Quote:
In short, I don't call error "scripture."

May God have mercy on those who bow to such errors, calling them scripture, when all of the facts were right there in front of them to teach them the truth. Unfortunately, believing a lie won't save anyone.

But didn't you admit the KJV as error in it?

Would you stand up in a church holding the KJV and the RSV and proceed to rip out the pages of the RSV saying it is not really a Bible?

If you should do that, then all will see your character for what it is.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/21/13 02:23 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: asygo
Quote:
Everything, EVERYTHING, we need to know or indeed can know about God, has been revealed by Christ's life on this planet.
Originally Posted By: EGW
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

Does anyone else see the concept that was added to the SOP quote?
You're going to have to help me here. In what way does "everything that man needs to know" include more or less or means something different than "all that man needs to know"?

Yes, I see you do need some help.

Inspired: All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son.

Not inspired: Everything, EVERYTHING, we need to know or indeed can know about God, has been revealed by Christ's life on this planet.

Do you see it now? The fallacy is that Christ's life and character was compressed into His life on this planet, and everything we can know about God is contained therein. Let's see if that holds up.

1 John 1:5
This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.


Christ was made "to be sin for us" during His life on this planet. (see 2 Corinthians 5:21) Many say that Jesus came in sinful flesh. Some even say that sin is in the genes that Jesus had. Wouldn't at least some of that count as some sort of darkness? But we know that in God is no darkness at all. How did John know that?

John 4:24
God is Spirit...


Was Jesus "Spirit" during His time on the planet? The SOP tells us that He was cumbered with humanity, quite unlike God. So how do we know this about God?

Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Was Jesus "above all, and through all, and in you all" when He was on this planet? I wasn't even around yet, so He wasn't in me. And being in physical form, how could he be in His 12 disciples? But Paul knew this about God, and then told us about it.

Romans 2:16
in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.


To help, I underlined the parts that were jumping out at me. Did Jesus do this while here? And if Jesus had already judged everyone, isn't it redundant for God to do it again, given that God's judgment was yet future at the time these verses were written? When did we see Jesus judging fornicators and adulterers? Yet, we know God will do it.

So we have Scriptures that tell us things about God that Jesus did not do during His life on this planet. Did EGW now know of these verses?

All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in His Word and in the life of His Son, the great Teacher. {6BC 1079.9}

Well, it looks like she included His Word in the list of sources of knowledge about God. Did she contradict herself? Some would say so. But it think it is more likely that Christ's character is described all over His Word, and not just in the short 33 years of His life. And since John tells us that the planet would be filled if he wrote down everything Jesus did, it would be utter foolishness to limit our understanding of God to 4 short books of the Bible.

So it seems GC might be on to something there. Perhaps there is much to learn about God in the law and the prophets. Maybe the blessings and curses recorded by Moses are not extraneous. Perhaps the short record of Christ's life on this planet doesn't come close to what we can learn of His life and character.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/21/13 03:47 AM

Originally Posted By: egw
All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in His Word and in the life of His Son, the great Teacher. {6BC 1079.9}
AMEN - - and when you find a supposed discrepancy in the word, then you look to the Son life. Hebrews 1:1-3 Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds. 3 He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Originally Posted By: asygo
Perhaps the short record of Christ's life on this planet doesn't come close to what we can learn of His life and character.
What an incredible statement! Did you not read {8T-286} that I posted? And you still want to make this claim? I'll quote it again. Read it again!
Originally Posted By: EGW
Christ's Revelation of God

All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him." John 1:18. {8T 286.2}

Taking humanity upon Him, Christ came to be one with humanity and at the same time to reveal our heavenly Father to sinful human beings. He was in all things made like unto His brethren. He became flesh, even as we are. He was hungry and thirsty and weary. He was sustained by food and refreshed by sleep. He shared the lot of men, and yet He was the blameless Son of God. He was a stranger and sojourner on the earth--in the world, but not of the world; tempted and tried as men and women today are tempted and tried, yet living a life free from sin. {8T 286.3}

Tender, compassionate, sympathetic, ever considerate of others, He represented the character of God, and was constantly engaged in service for God and man. {8T 286.4}

"The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, . . . full of grace and truth." Verse 14. {8T 286.5}

"Unto the men whom Thou gavest Me out of the world,'' He said, "I manifested Thy name," "that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them." John 17:6, A. R. V., 26. {8T 286.6}

"Love your enemies," He bade them; "bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven;" "for He is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." "He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." "Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." Matthew 5:44-45; Luke 6:35-36. {8T 286.7}

So asygo - I reject your view of Christ and His mission. His mission was to reveal the character of God CLEARLY. And this He did.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/21/13 05:23 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo

Yes, I see you do need some help.
I guess APL was perceptive in what I was missing!

Quote:


Inspired: All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son.

Not inspired: Everything, EVERYTHING, we need to know or indeed can know about God, has been revealed by Christ's life on this planet.

Do you see it now? The fallacy is that Christ's life and character was compressed into His life on this planet, and everything we can know about God is contained therein. Let's see if that holds up.

All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in His Word and in the life of His Son, the great Teacher. {6BC 1079.9}

Well, it looks like she included His Word in the list of sources of knowledge about God. Did she contradict herself?
No, but I think you did. You first imply the life of the Son involved more than his short 33 years on this planet. Now you seem to acknowledge "life of His Son" means the life on this planet.

Assuming your first stance, that life and character means differently than life on this planet, you do seem to take a position that would be odd for Ellen White to have explicitly gone through several paragraphs as APL pointed out to say nothing. I mean, what's the point if she was not attempting to say we need to look to Christ as He had dwelt with man upon this earth?

Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/21/13 05:53 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Let's see if that holds up. ...

Asygo, this is what it appears to me you have done in your quotes:

To answer the question, do scriptures show that God kills those who disagree with Him: We know God is going to kill people who don't do what He wants them to do. Christ didn't kill anyone on this planet, so therefore, when Ellen White says everything we need to know, has to involve outside His life. If Jesus didn't kill and we know God will kill, therefore we need to look at scriptures. And the scriptures tell us things about God what Jesus didn't do in His life here. Therefore, we conclude scriptures do indeed support the idea that God kills. We have investigated the claim of whether the Bible says God kills by making the assumption that God kills, not finding it in the life of Jesus, and then leaving the only alternative that the Bible does indeed show God kills people.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/21/13 05:56 PM

I found this in the Liberty magazine http://www.libertymagazine.org/article/keeping-perspective

It was talking about Marco Rubio being demonized not for stating he believed in creation, but for failing to say he didn't believe in it. He had said he wasn't a scientist, and theologians argued over the question, and he didn't see what the issue had to do with economic prosperity or gross domestic product.

Why were the liberals so aggressive in attacking him and others?

Paulson brings out in the article the sanctity of free choice. He states:
Quote:
Here is where so many religious conservatives hurt their cause deeply. Like the parent who employs coercive means to constrain a grown child to follow what may well be commonsense counsel, today’s Christian political activists seem not to understand that when theology takes up the sword of civil power, it doesn’t matter how much solid, sensible evidence exists for that theology or the lifestyle it enjoins. Because it is coupled with the threat of force, the well is poisoned, and those who might otherwise give the biblical worldview a fair hearing respond instead with knee-jerk revulsion.


He talks about the revulsion liberals have of Christians using power and civil force for furthering Christian values and therefore:
Quote:
Because the Christian worldview is associated in many thoughtful minds with the use of civil force as a means of furthering Christian values, this worldview is wrongly relegated by those same minds to the fringes of lunacy, fanaticism, and the eccentric anachronism of the Flat Earth Society. Like advice from one’s in-laws, Christian beliefs are eschewed not because of their objective merits or lack thereof, but because of their association with meddlesome intrusiveness.


The point I'm making is, if liberals can recognize the wrong of Christians using force and coercion to make people do what they want, would they see any difference if God did the same thing? And is that why they are so repulsed by anything religious because of how so-called Christians have used their opinion of what God is like to implement their own agendas? That if God uses similar means, they want nothing to do with God.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/22/13 04:47 AM

I see that neither kland nor apl has addressed post #155222. Usually people address quickly the points with which they disagree. So, do you agree with those points I made?

If so, I don't understand how you can give Arnold such a hard time over the points he is making.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/22/13 08:06 AM

Originally Posted By: green
Now, if I choose to limit my thinking to a narrow window of time, by putting blinders upon my own face, how intelligent is that?
Jesus is the answer to all the difficulty in understanding the Old Testament. Yes, it was Christ communicating to us in the Old Testament. He has done it in many and various ways though the prophets. But in these last days, He has communicated to us directly through His Son. We should pay very close attention to Jesus testimony. It clears up the problems in understanding the Old Testament. Did the desciples understand the revelation of God in the Old Testament? Nope. John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Christ's mission was to reveal the character of God. The quote in 8T-286 when read in context is speaking of Christ's life on this earth. It is a very forceful statement. Love your enemies. This IS the God of the Old Testament. Do good to those that hate you - this is the God of the Old Testament. He is kind to the unthankful and evil person - this is the God of the Old Testament. The sun and rain fall on the just and unjust. He is merciful. That is my God. That is what Jesus revealed!
Originally Posted By: egw
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! Truth came forth from the lips of Jesus, uncorrupted with human philosophy. His words were from heaven, such as mortal lips had never spoken nor mortal ears ever heard. His heart was an altar on which burned the flames of infinite love. Goodness, mercy, and love were enthroned in the breast of the Son of God. He set up his tabernacle in the midst of our human encampment, pitched his tent by the side of the tents of men, that he might dwell among them and make them familiar with his divine character and love. No one could love Christ and pay homage to him without serving and honoring the infinite God. Those who had an appreciation of the character and mission of Christ, were filled with reverence and awe, as they looked upon him and felt that they were looking upon the temple of the living God. Officers were sent to take the Son of God, that the temple in which God was enshrined might be destroyed. But as they drew near and heard the words of divine wisdom that fell from his lips, they were charmed, and the power and excellence of his instruction so filled their hearts and minds that they forgot the purpose for which they had been sent. Christ revealed himself to their souls. Divinity flashed through humanity, and they returned so filled with this one thought, so charmed with the ideas he had presented, that when the leaders of Israel inquired, "Why have ye not brought him?" they replied, "Never man spake like this man." They had seen that which priests and rulers would not see,--humanity flooded with the light and glory of divinity. Those who would behold this glory would be drawn to love Jesus and to love the Father whom he represented. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9}
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/22/13 12:28 PM

What is the definition of the final word in the book The Great Controversy?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/22/13 02:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}


Point to Ponder

APL says the above quote applies only to Jesus' earthly existence.
APL says it does not apply to Jesus' prior life, nor to His after life.
APL seems not to acknowledge Jesus' "character" as having been revealed outside of said earthly existence.

APL, what is the Old Testament for? Ellen White seems to teach you that you can't learn anything from it, right?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/22/13 03:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}


Point to Ponder

APL says the above quote applies only to Jesus' earthly existence.
APL says it does not apply to Jesus' prior life, nor to His after life.
APL seems not to acknowledge Jesus' "character" as having been revealed outside of said earthly existence.

APL, what is the Old Testament for? Ellen White seems to teach you that you can't learn anything from it, right?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Have you pondered on these points yourself?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/22/13 04:39 PM

Originally Posted By: green
APL, what is the Old Testament for? Ellen White seems to teach you that you can't learn anything from it, right?
There is must to be learned in the Old Testament, especially when read though the lens of Jesus Christ.
Originally Posted By: EGW
Christ came to save fallen man, and Satan with fiercest wrath met him on the field of conflict; for the enemy knew that when divine strength was added to human weakness, man was armed with power and intelligence, and could break away from the captivity in which he had bound him. Satan sought to intercept every ray of light from the throne of God. He sought to cast his shadow across the earth, that men might lose the true views of God's character, and that the knowledge of God might become extinct in the earth. He had caused truth of vital importance to be so mingled with error that it had lost its significance. The law of Jehovah was burdened with needless exactions and traditions, and God was represented as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. He was pictured as one who could take pleasure in the sufferings of his creatures. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}

Yes - the life and character of God was clearly revealed by the life Jesus lived on this earth. His life on this planet gives clearest picture of God and destroys Satan's lies about God. Satan's pictured God has having his own attributes, such as, God is the Destroyer. God is a severe, exacting judge. Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/22/13 06:51 PM

green and asygo believe that only a little of the truth about God is revealed by Christ life on this planet. Arnold summarizes it like this:
Originally Posted By: asygo
So it seems GC might be on to something there. Perhaps there is much to learn about God in the law and the prophets. Maybe the blessings and curses recorded by Moses are not extraneous. Perhaps the short record of Christ's life on this planet doesn't come close to what we can learn of His life and character.


But what say the scriptures?

John 3:10-21
10 Jesus answered and said to him, Are you a master of Israel, and know not these things?
11 Truly, truly, I say to you, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and you receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God.

Jesus is the Light of the world. Christ is to be lifted up. Christ's life has manifested the character (name) of the Father. Is the short record of Christ's life sufficient to understand the character of God? YES. And here is lies the difference between my view of God and green/asygo/others. Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?
Jesus is exactly like the Father. THAT is the GOSPEL - the Good News. If what you say is NOT Good News, then it is NOT the GOSPEL. This IS what is being spoken about at the beginning of the 3 angel's messages. Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the middle of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,. Are we preaching the 3 angel's messages today?
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/22/13 07:02 PM

AMEN!
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/22/13 07:14 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
green and asygo believe that only a little of the truth about God is revealed by Christ life on this planet. Arnold summarizes it like this:
Originally Posted By: asygo
So it seems GC might be on to something there. Perhaps there is much to learn about God in the law and the prophets. Maybe the blessings and curses recorded by Moses are not extraneous. Perhaps the short record of Christ's life on this planet doesn't come close to what we can learn of His life and character.


But what say the scriptures?

John 3:10-21
10 Jesus answered and said to him, Are you a master of Israel, and know not these things?
11 Truly, truly, I say to you, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and you receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God.

Jesus is the Light of the world. Christ is to be lifted up. Christ's life has manifested the character (name) of the Father. Is the short record of Christ's life sufficient to understand the character of God? YES. And here is lies the difference between my view of God and green/asygo/others. Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?
Jesus is exactly like the Father. THAT is the GOSPEL - the Good News. If what you say is NOT Good News, then it is NOT the GOSPEL. This IS what is being spoken about at the beginning of the 3 angel's messages. Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the middle of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,. Are we preaching the 3 angel's messages today?


smile

Thank you, APL, for speaking the point so well that Arnold and I have been trying to get across. The point was in the first verse there that you quoted.

Quote:
Jesus answered and said to him, Are you a master of Israel, and know not these things?


Let's see, now.

1) Did Nicodemus have the New Testament to read?
2) Had Jesus' life on this earth, or even His ministry, been completed?
3) Had Nicodemus met Jesus before?

From whence, then, was Nicodemus' knowledge to have come? You mean to tell me that he should have known about Jesus from the Old Testament? You had been trying to prove we could only know about God from Jesus' earthly life.

I'm glad to see you are beginning to recognize otherwise.

You also must have recognized some truths in the Hebrews text you quoted, namely the following portion:

Quote:
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, ...


Or did you really think that since "all we can know" came through Christ's life, God would have wasted His words on the people before Christ came--since they could not have known anything by them anyhow? Nay. On the contrary, God knew they could know Him, even before Jesus' life among them.

In fact, the wisest man on earth could even know God, before Jesus ever came to show God to him.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/22/13 07:56 PM

Originally Posted By: green
1) Did Nicodemus have the New Testament to read?
2) Had Jesus' life on this earth, or even His ministry, been completed?
3) Had Nicodemus met Jesus before?
Jesus said: John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, Are you a master of Israel, and know not these things? If the testimony was so clear, Why? Why did Jesus have to come if the testimony was so apparent? To pay a legal payment? NO. You [green] quote Hebrews, but you stop short of what the writer wanted to really say, WHY? Yes, Jesus has spoken to the prophets in the past. BUT- the CLEAREST revelation of what God is like is found in His life on earth as a man. And if you beliefs contradict that testimony, then you are believing a lie. Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, WHY do you so ignore Jesus's testimony? The BIBILCAL definition of a believer is given to use in John 3. A believer is one who believes Jesus personal testimony. It is an inconvient truth when one's beliefs do not align with the testimony of Jesus. Jesus IS the answer to the question, what is God like.

Luke 9:33-35 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for you, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said. 34 While he thus spoke, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. 35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

John 1:10-17
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came to his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spoke, He that comes after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

TRUTH - came by Jesus Christ
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/23/13 12:31 AM

Yes, TRUTH came by Jesus Christ.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/23/13 12:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Johann
Yes, TRUTH came by Jesus Christ.

Indeed. Truth came by Jesus Christ. But unfortunately, truth is fallen in the streets.

Jesus Christ came in the Creation. (John 1:1)
He came in the Garden of Eden.
He came to walk with Enoch.
He came to talk with Abraham.
He came to speak to Moses, face to face.
He came to lead the children of Israel via the pillar of cloud.

And now after all of this, some would like to narrow His coming to a brief blip of 33 years.

Ellen White should be used to interpret herself. That "all that man can know" statement is put into its proper focus by the following one.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
After the fall Christ became Adam's instructor. He acted in God's stead toward humanity, saving the race from immediate death. He took upon him the office of mediator. Adam and Eve were given a probation in which to return to their allegiance, and in this plan all their posterity were embraced. {CC 20.6}

Without the atonement of the Son of God there could have been no communication of blessing or salvation from God to man. God was jealous for the honor of His law. The transgression of that law had caused a fearful separation between God and man. To Adam in his innocence was granted communion, direct, free, and happy, with his Maker. After his transgression, God would communicate to man only through Christ and angels. {CC 20.7}


Given that this is Mrs. White's message to us, we should not further narrow Christ's speaking to us to a mere 33 years. She does not support such a statement. She says that Christ is the ONLY communication from God to man since the Fall. That is her meaning. In other words, every piece of truth from Heaven which we have been able to glean through God's Word and through Heavenly agencies has come from Christ, as represented through His life and character.

Again, my Jesus is alive!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/23/13 01:21 AM

God's wrath is delayed. It is this important truth that APL would like to avoid that is revealed through the pen of Ellen White. APL's escape is to use Ellen White against herself by interpreting her to say that only Jesus' earthly life can teach us about God. This is an erroneous position, but it must be maintained if APL's other views are to be supported.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The Son of God, undertaking to become the Redeemer of the race, placed Adam in a new relation to his Creator. He was still fallen; but a door of hope was opened to him. The wrath of God still hung over Adam, but the execution of the sentence of death was delayed, and the indignation of God was restrained, because Christ had entered upon the work of becoming man's Redeemer. Christ was to take the wrath of God, which in justice should fall upon man. He became a refuge for man, and, although man was indeed a criminal, deserving the wrath of God, yet he could, by faith in Christ, run into the refuge provided and be safe. In the midst of death there was life if man chose to accept it. The holy and infinite God, who dwelleth in light unapproachable, could no longer talk with man. No communication could now exist directly between man and his Maker. {Con 19.3}

God forbears, for a time, the full execution of the sentence of death pronounced upon man. Satan flattered himself that he had forever broken the link between heaven and earth. But in this he was greatly mistaken and disappointed. The Father had given the world into the hands of His Son for Him to redeem from the curse and the disgrace of Adam's failure and fall. Through Christ alone can man now find access to God. And through Christ alone will the Lord hold communication with man. {Con 20.1}

Christ volunteered to maintain and vindicate the holiness of the divine law. He was not to do away the smallest part of its claims in the work of redemption for man, but, in order to save man and maintain the sacred claims and justice of His Father's law, He gave Himself a sacrifice for the guilt of man. Christ's life did not, in a single instance, detract from the claims of His Father's law, but, through firm obedience to all its precepts and by dying for the sins of those who had transgressed it, He established its immutability. {Con 20.2}


While Mrs. White says that God forbears "for a time," APL would like to have us believe that He will ALWAYS forbear, and that He will NEVER execute the sentence of death upon sinners. In order to hold such a view, he has yielded to other errors, including that some "sentient-judge" other than God inflicts the final punishment on the sinner--i.e. "sin." But sin can do no such thing. To say sin would even do such a thing would be to ascribe a righteous act (justice) to a transgression of the law (sin).

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/23/13 02:49 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: asygo
Inspired: All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son.

Not inspired: Everything, EVERYTHING, we need to know or indeed can know about God, has been revealed by Christ's life on this planet.

Do you see it now? The fallacy is that Christ's life and character was compressed into His life on this planet, and everything we can know about God is contained therein. Let's see if that holds up.

All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in His Word and in the life of His Son, the great Teacher. {6BC 1079.9}

Well, it looks like she included His Word in the list of sources of knowledge about God. Did she contradict herself?
No, but I think you did. You first imply the life of the Son involved more than his short 33 years on this planet. Now you seem to acknowledge "life of His Son" means the life on this planet.

No, you got confused. It was APL who limited Christ's life to His time on this planet. What I said is that Jesus' life spans much more than His 33 years here.

"Before Abraham was, I AM." Yes, that was Jesus. And He was already revealing God to us way back then.

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.


When Jesus wanted to teach some disciples about Himself, He went old school, or perhaps more appropriate here, Old Testament. He didn't tell them to track down John and ask him to tell them what he had seen. Instead, He led them to what He had already said Himself, of Himself, in the law and the prophets. His Word, even the old words that seems to be disparaged at every turn these days, reveals Christ and God to us.

If you question that Jesus has been mediating for us since our fall, revealing Himself and God to us, perhaps these might sway you:

The transgression of that law had caused a fearful separation between God and man. To Adam in his innocence was granted communion, direct, free, and happy, with his Maker. After his transgression, God would communicate to man only through Christ and angels. {ST, January 30, 1879 par. 19}

From the pillar of cloud and fire Christ taught them that their murmurings were directed, not against Moses, but against their divine Leader. Moses and Aaron had led them according to his directions, and they were assured that it was not the man Moses that was guiding them but the Lord Jesus Christ. {ST, January 24, 1895 par. 1}


Christ reveals God to us. But He didn't just start 2000 years ago. He's been doing it for much longer than that. And I think He's going to keep doing it until we can see clearly.

But EVEN IF (and that's a gigantic, unreasonable IF) Christ's 33 years here contained everything we could know about God, you don't know what He did during those 33 years.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.


John said that if everything Jesus did was written down, the world could not contain it. Do you understand how little you know about His life? Let's put some math to work.

The land surface area of earth is 148,940,000 sq km. That's 148,940,000,000,000 sq meters. That is a number so astronomical that it dwarfs even the U.S. national debt!

Even if we use big scrolls with big handwriting, we can still easily fit the 4 books of the Gospel into 1 sq meter. That means you can fit 148,940,000,000,000 books that size on the land of earth. That's how much Jesus did. And you get 0.000000000067% of that in the Gospels.

So even if you memorized all 4 books of the Gospel, realize that it is an exceedingly microscopic fraction of what "the life of His Son" comprises. And we didn't even include the earth's water-covered surface.

Originally Posted By: kland
Assuming your first stance, that life and character means differently than life on this planet, you do seem to take a position that would be odd for Ellen White to have explicitly gone through several paragraphs as APL pointed out to say nothing. I mean, what's the point if she was not attempting to say we need to look to Christ as He had dwelt with man upon this earth?

IIRC, APL's "several paragraphs" were quoted from 8T, a compilation of quotes from various sources. Find the primary source of "All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son" and read the context. You will find that she was not talking about limiting our knowledge of God to Christ's 33 years here. And you will find that 6BC 1079.9 is a very close parallel.

Furthermore, that section of 8T simply shows that God was revealed in Christ's life. If you want to know what God is like, Jesus is His express image. Even the lead sentence does not limit Christ's revelation to His 33 years: life and character of His Son.

What APL seems to think she was saying in 8T is not actually what she was saying. Plus, I have experienced for myself how APL can easily and freely twist the words of even living authors. I don't much weight on his interpretations. I suggest you take them with a bucket of salt.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/23/13 03:07 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: asygo
Let's see if that holds up. ...

Asygo, this is what it appears to me you have done in your quotes:

You didn't actually need that many words to try to explain what I'm doing. It's laid out pretty clearly here, and much more accurately:

1 Chronicles 10
13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. 14 But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.


There's no motive other than to live by every word that comes from God. If He said He did it, I don't need to go to great lengths to "prove" it.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/23/13 03:43 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
IIRC, APL's "several paragraphs" were quoted from 8T, a compilation of quotes from various sources.
Perhaps, you would like to check out what you just said, and correct yourself. Because I DID quote EGW's original source. The only compilation in what I quoted from 8T-286 is compilation of scripture. True, the testimonies are a collection of her writings, but please note when they were published!! Volume 8 was in 1904. This is a work of EGW, not a compilation put together after her death. SHE was directly involved in the creation of the testimonies.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/23/13 10:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I see that neither kland nor apl has addressed post #155222. Usually people address quickly the points with which they disagree. So, do you agree with those points I made?
You might have missed my response to asygo in #155262.

Otherwise you would not have made the following error:
Quote:
From whence, then, was Nicodemus' knowledge to have come? You mean to tell me that he should have known about Jesus from the Old Testament? You had been trying to prove we could only know about God from Jesus' earthly life.

I'm glad to see you are beginning to recognize otherwise.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/23/13 10:12 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: asygo
Let's see if that holds up. ...

Asygo, this is what it appears to me you have done in your quotes:

You didn't actually need that many words to try to explain what I'm doing. It's laid out pretty clearly here, and much more accurately:

1 Chronicles 10
13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. 14 But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.


There's no motive other than to live by every word that comes from God. If He said He did it, I don't need to go to great lengths to "prove" it.
But you had already said that clearly Saul killed himself. Now you're saying God clearly did.

Which is it?
dunno
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/23/13 10:50 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: asygo
You didn't actually need that many words to try to explain what I'm doing. It's laid out pretty clearly here, and much more accurately:

1 Chronicles 10
13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. 14 But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.


There's no motive other than to live by every word that comes from God. If He said He did it, I don't need to go to great lengths to "prove" it.
But you had already said that clearly Saul killed himself. Now you're saying God clearly did.

Which is it?
dunno

I'm sorry I confused you. That red part wasn't me. That was God talking through the Bible.

I don't remember saying that Saul killed himself. You asked how God "slew" Saul, and I gave you God's word through the Bible that Saul fell on his sword. But that doesn't negate the Bible evidence specifying who killed whom.

You see, once you imbibe of the spirit of questioning God and doubting His plain words, it leads to all sorts of confusion. The verse says God killed him, but it can't pierce the clouds of doubt. You still wonder, which is it? As if you must choose one over the other verse.

When something seems contradictory, you should rather doubt yourself than doubt God. Instead of asking, "Which one is true?" you should ask, "How are they both true?"
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/23/13 11:26 PM

kland,

Please don't forget to address post #155331, where I showed the utter folly of even thinking that Christ's life as recorded in the 4 books of the Gospel contains all we can know about God. I want to know if I have made a dent in your position on that.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/24/13 01:44 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
I have experienced for myself how APL can easily and freely twist the words of even living authors. I don't much weight on his interpretations. I suggest you take them with a bucket of salt.
You speak about my interpretation of what you said, which you could not or most likely would not clearly state your position. Why? Because of the lack of good news in that view point.

Oh - and have you corrected your view of the Testimonies? Your statement, "IIRC, APL's "several paragraphs" were quoted from 8T, a compilation of quotes from various sources." is actually not true. I suspect that you really do not know the origin of the Testimonies, for if you did, then this would have been an outright lie. The quote from 8T-286 is ORIGINAL source, but asygo would like for us to believe it is compiled from multiple sources. When read as a whole, it is clear the EGW is speaking of Jesus's life on this planet, as a human. Yes, I choose my words carefully when I made my statement. It is difficult to refute EGW words, so attach my words, it is a cleaver ploy.
Originally Posted By: EGW
The knowledge of God as revealed in Christ is the knowledge that all who are saved must have. It is the knowledge that works transformation of character. This knowledge, received, will re-create the soul in the image of God. It will impart to the whole being a spiritual power that is divine. {8T 289.2}
asygo would like us to believe that that majority of this knowledge comes from the OT, and not Christ short life on this planet. But is this true? Let me quote from the manuscript repleases. You do know where these come from asygo, right?
Originally Posted By: EGW
As a personal being, God has revealed Himself in His Son. Jesus, the outshining of the Father's glory, "and the express image of His person," was on earth found in fashion as a man. As a personal Saviour, He came to the world. As a personal Saviour, He ascended on high. As a personal Saviour, He intercedes in the heavenly courts. Before the throne of God in our behalf ministers "One like the Son of man." {9MR 122.2} [NOTE - Christ life on this earth was the "express image of His person". When? His life on this planet]

As Jehovah, the supreme Ruler, God could not personally communicate with sinful men, but He so loved the world that He sent Jesus to our world as a revelation of Himself. "I and My Father are one," Christ declared. No man knoweth "the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him" (Matthew 11:27). And Christ is also the revealer of the hearts of men. He is the exposer of sin. By Him the characters of all are to be tested. To Him all judgment has been committed, "because He is the Son of man." {9MR 122.3}

Taking humanity upon Him, Christ came to be one with humanity, and at the same time to reveal our heavenly Father to sinful human beings. He was in all things made like unto His brethren. He became flesh, even as we are. He was hungry and thirsty and weary. He was sustained by food and refreshed by sleep. He shared the lot of men, and yet he was the blameless Son of God. He was a stranger and sojourner on the earth--in the world, but not of the world; tempted and tried as men and women today are tempted and tried, yet living a life free from spot or stain of sin. "We have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15). In His strength men and women can live the life of purity and nobility that He lived. {9MR 122.4} [NOTE = why did Christ put on humanity? To reveal our heavenly Father. When? His life on this planet!]

Christ came to teach human beings what God desires them to know. Just before His trial and crucifixion, He said to His disciples, [John 16:24-33 quoted]. {9MR 123.1}
The disciples had asked many questions that revealed their ignorance of God's relation to them and to their present and future interests. Christ desired them to have a clearer, more distinct knowledge of God. "I will show you the Father, and will make you better acquainted with Him," He said. It is this knowledge that Christians need today. This knowledge, which Christ alone can give, is the highest of all education. {9MR 123.2} [NOTE - Christ came to teach human beings what God desires them to know. When did he do this? In His life on this planet! The disciples, those closest to Jesus were quite ignorant. Did they have the scriptures? Were they still ignorant? ]

When, on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the disciples, they understood the truths that Christ had spoken in proverbs. The teachings that had been mysteries to them were made clear. The understanding that came to them with the outpouring of the Spirit made them ashamed of their fanciful theories. Their suppositions and interpretations were foolishness compared with the knowledge of heavenly things that now came to them. Their confused ideas were gone; they were led of the Spirit; and light shone into their once-darkened understanding. {9MR 123.3}

While with the disciples, Christ had revealed to them all the knowledge of God that they could bear. The complete fulfillment of the promise that He would show them plainly of the Father, was yet to come. Thus it is today. Now we know in part only. When the conflict is ended, and the Man Christ Jesus acknowledges before the Father His faithful workers, who in a world of sin have borne true witness for Him, they will understand clearly what now are mysteries to them. {9MR 123.4} [NOTE = When did Jesus PLAINLY reveal the Father? In His life on this planet! Was his witness true? Oh yes!

John 3:18-21 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God.

Who is a believer? Answer: One who believes the testimony of Jesus. Jesus is the light of the world. Jesus came into the world, but men loved darkness rather than light. What is this verse speaking about? Christ life on this planet.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/24/13 03:26 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
You [Arnold] speak about my interpretation of what you said, which you could not or most likely would not clearly state your position. Why? Because of the lack of good news in that view point.

On the contrary, it is good news. Your viewpoint is that which lacks goodness.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/24/13 05:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
You [Arnold] speak about my interpretation of what you said, which you could not or most likely would not clearly state your position. Why? Because of the lack of good news in that view point.

On the contrary, it is good news. Your viewpoint is that which lacks goodness.

Many people err in thinking that good news is defined by what they think and feel is good. But good news is good because the news comes from our good God. The opinions of depraved humanity carries no weight.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/24/13 07:27 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
You [Arnold] speak about my interpretation of what you said, which you could not or most likely would not clearly state your position. Why? Because of the lack of good news in that view point.

On the contrary, it is good news. Your viewpoint is that which lacks goodness.

Many people err in thinking that good news is defined by what they think and feel is good. But good news is good because the news comes from our good God. The opinions of depraved humanity carries no weight.
Again - attacks, but no clarity. You even completely ignore the quotations of EGW which refute your view that we learn so little about the character of God from the life of Jesus Christ, on this planet... Why? Because you cannot refute them. Interesting indeed.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/24/13 05:56 PM

APL,

You are not ready for translation. You better change your diet to being even more extreme than it now is, so that you can be ready for translation to Heaven. Here's the proof:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Grains and fruits prepared free from grease, and in as natural a condition as possible, should be the food for the tables of all who claim to be preparing for translation to heaven. The less feverish the diet, the more easily can the passions be controlled. Gratification of taste should not be consulted irrespective of physical, intellectual, or moral health. {2T 352.1}


You are still eating vegetables. You probably still eat nuts. Maybe honey. You have too "feverish" a diet. You better start eating just fruits and grains. Then you can say you are ready for translation.

* * * * * * *


Now, if you continue interpreting Ellen White as strictly as you have been, you are obliged to follow that counsel to eat just fruits and grains. If, however, you determine that statement to be imbalanced and only partially representative of Mrs. White's true position on the diet question, then how is it that you can justify looking only at a few of her statements on this question--the one of this thread?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/24/13 07:39 PM

Green - are you ready for translation? Matthews 7 comes to mind.

Diet - - LOL. You green have been shown to pick and choose what you will believe, do you not recall???? Have you read the show chapter in 2T you quoted? I have it marked up. You should read the whole chapter. In fact, it is one of the chapters that clearly contradicts those that view humans with dualism, that the spiritual nature is somehow separate from the physical body. Read the chapter green, with an open mind, without your preconceived ideas.

EGW, "God destroys no man". Is that a radical idea to you Green? Is that a narrow imbalanced "interpretation"? Or do you indeed believe the testimony of Christ as He revealed the Father to be, just like Him? "Hear Him".
Posted By: James Peterson

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/24/13 08:42 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Green - are you ready for translation? Matthews 7 comes to mind.

Diet - - LOL. You green have been shown to pick and choose what you will believe, do you not recall???? Have you read the show chapter in 2T you quoted? I have it marked up. You should read the whole chapter. In fact, it is one of the chapters that clearly contradicts those that view humans with dualism, that the spiritual nature is somehow separate from the physical body. Read the chapter green, with an open mind, without your preconceived ideas.

EGW, "God destroys no man". Is that a radical idea to you Green? Is that a narrow imbalanced "interpretation"? Or do you indeed believe the testimony of Christ as He revealed the Father to be, just like Him? "Hear Him".


Sorry, but the testimony of Jesus says otherwise. He said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Mat. 10:28)

God HIMSELF destroys those who report, ignore and discriminate against his people. Jesus said so.

...
..
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/24/13 09:07 PM

Jim - don't stop at verse 28, continue reading!

Matthew 10:29-42
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear you not therefore, you are of more value than many sparrows.
32 Whoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that takes not his cross, and follows after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that finds his life shall lose it: and he that loses his life for my sake shall find it.
40 He that receives you receives me, and he that receives me receives him that sent me.
41 He that receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42 And whoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, truly I say to you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
Posted By: James Peterson

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/24/13 10:59 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Jim - don't stop at verse 28, continue reading!

Matthew 10:29-42
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear you not therefore, you are of more value than many sparrows.
32 Whoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that takes not his cross, and follows after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that finds his life shall lose it: and he that loses his life for my sake shall find it.
40 He that receives you receives me, and he that receives me receives him that sent me.
41 He that receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42 And whoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, truly I say to you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.


You are comparing apples to oranges.

Jesus was repeating the prophecy made to the serpent in the Garden of Eden about enmity between it and the woman, its seed and hers. God was going to call the righteous to speak; but the wicked were going to dislike that.

In the post-millennial judgement however, God HIMSELF is going to destroy the wicked, even to the very root: the serpent, the being against whom even the angels of God require the assistance of Michael to fight (Dan. 10).

The times that are now are different to the judgement after the millennium.
.....
..
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/25/13 03:36 AM

Yep - he will heap coals of fire on their head.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/25/13 07:49 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
The point I'm making is, if liberals can recognize the wrong of Christians using force and coercion to make people do what they want, would they see any difference if God did the same thing? And is that why they are so repulsed by anything religious because of how so-called Christians have used their opinion of what God is like to implement their own agendas? That if God uses similar means, they want nothing to do with God.

It is true that man has no business forcing others to bow to his own opinions. But that is no reason for us to conform our ways to the liberals' agenda.

Many were repulsed by Jesus, to the point that they crucified Him. They hated His holiness. They wanted nothing to do with Him. Should He have changed His ways? Should we avoid His example?

We do what we do because it's what God wants, regardless of the opinion of man, including liberals. It is high time we stand for our supposed Leader, rather than cowering in fear of man's opinion. Peter learned his lesson when the cock crowed, and we would be wise to do the same.

And if liberals were so opposed to coercion, why do they coerce me to fund their irresponsibility, licentiousness, fornication, and murder? Where is the outrage over that? Perhaps their real concern is that they are not the ones doing the coercing.

In any case, I have no intention of conforming my life to their specifications. If they don't like the fact that God guarantees that sinners will die eternally, that's too bad for them becaue I don't think God is going to bow down to them either.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/25/13 07:54 PM

1 John 1:5
This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.


Christ was made "to be sin for us" during His life on this planet. (see 2 Corinthians 5:21) Many say that Jesus came in sinful flesh. Some even say that sin is in the genes that Jesus had. Wouldn't at least some of that count as some sort of darkness? But we know that in God is no darkness at all. How did John know that?

John 4:24
God is Spirit...


Was Jesus "Spirit" during His time on the planet? The SOP tells us that He was cumbered with humanity, quite unlike God. So how do we know this about God?

Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Was Jesus "above all, and through all, and in you all" when He was on this planet? I wasn't even around yet, so He wasn't in me. And being in physical form, how could he be in His 12 disciples? But Paul knew this about God, and then told us about it.

Romans 2:16
in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.


To help, I underlined the parts that were jumping out at me. Did Jesus do this while here? And if Jesus had already judged everyone, isn't it redundant for God to do it again, given that God's judgment was yet future at the time these verses were written? When did we see Jesus judging fornicators and adulterers? Yet, we know God will do it.

So we have Scriptures that tell us things about God that Jesus did not do during His life on this planet.

I didn't even bring up anything from the OT. Interesting, no?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/26/13 01:39 AM

Put all scripture together...
John 5:22 For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son:

Originally Posted By: egw
God designed that the Prince of sufferers in humanity should be judge of the whole world. He who submitted to be arraigned before an earthly tribunal, He who came from the heavenly courts to save man from eternal death, He whom men despised, rejected, and upon whom they heaped all the contempt of which human beings inspired by Satan are capable, He who suffered the ignominious death of the cross--He alone was to pronounce the sentence of reward or of punishment (MS 39, 1898).


Who is God? Jesus is God. Did Jesus judge the secrets of men while on this earth? Oh Yes!!! Look at how The God of this Universe treaded those that condemned the women taken in adultery? Did Jesus judge fornicators and adulterers? Look at how the God of this Universe treated the woman in the same story! All your quotes, Jesus did here on earth during His life. How did Jesus treat sinners?

Interesting, No?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/26/13 02:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
He who died for the sins of the world was to remain in the tomb the allotted time. He was in that stony prison house as a prisoner of divine justice. He was responsible to the Judge of the universe. He was bearing the sins of the world, and His Father only could release Him.


Interesting. Perhaps Jesus is the judge of this world, but the Father is the judge of all.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/26/13 02:16 AM

"perhaps"?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/26/13 02:24 AM

There are two jugments: the investigative judgment, and the executive judgment. God the Father is the judge of the former, and Christ of the latter.

Here is Mrs. White's reference to that former, showing clearly that God the Father is the judge for the investigative judgment.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
"I beheld," says the prophet Daniel, "till thrones were placed, and One that was Ancient of Days did sit: His raiment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool; His throne was fiery flames, and the wheels thereof burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened." Daniel 7:9, 10, R.V. {GC 479.1}

Thus was presented to the prophet's vision the great and solemn day when the characters and the lives of men should pass in review before the Judge of all the earth, and to every man should be rendered "according to his works." The Ancient of Days is God the Father. Says the psalmist: "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God." Psalm 90:2. It is He, the source of all being, and the fountain of all law, that is to preside in the judgment. And holy angels as ministers and witnesses, in number "ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands," attend this great tribunal. {GC 479.2}

"And, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away." Daniel 7:13, 14. The coming of Christ here described is not His second coming to the earth. He comes to the Ancient of Days in heaven to receive dominion and glory and a kingdom, which will be given Him at the close of His work as a mediator. It is this coming, and not His second advent to the earth, that was foretold in prophecy to take place at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844. Attended by heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies and there appears in the presence of God to engage in the last acts of His ministration in behalf of man--to perform the work of investigative judgment and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits. {GC 479.3}


The book of Revelation describes the moment in time in which Jesus is promoted to the Judgeship of the world. It is at the time of the opening of the seventh seal. He alone is worthy. But that time comes at the close of the investigative judgment, during which the Father has presided as Judge. Following the close of probation for all, Jesus becomes the Judge, and He is then Judge both at the second advent and the third advent.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/26/13 02:45 AM

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to you. Holy Father, keep through your own name those whom you have given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/26/13 02:57 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to you. Holy Father, keep through your own name those whom you have given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me.


Originally Posted By: The Bible
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. (Genesis 2:24)

And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (Matthew 19:5)

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. (Mark 19:7-8)

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. (John 17:11)
...
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. (John 17:21-23)


"One" doesn't mean "same person" or "same role."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/26/13 09:18 AM

Green - read chapter 35 of the book, The Ministry of Healing. (note - is it not the ministry of jurisprudence).

Like our Saviour, we are in this world to do service for God. We are here to become like God in character, and by a life of service to reveal Him to the world. In order to be co-workers with God, in order to become like Him and to reveal His character, we must know Him aright. We must know Him as He reveals Himself. {MH 409.1}

A knowledge of God is the foundation of all true education and of all true service. It is the only real safeguard against temptation. It is this alone that can make us like God in character. {MH 409.2}

This is the knowledge needed by all who are working for the uplifting of their fellow men. Transformation of character, purity of life, efficiency in service, adherence to correct principles, all depend upon a right knowledge of God. This knowledge is the essential preparation both for this life and for the life to come. {MH 409.3}

"The knowledge of the Holy is understanding." Proverbs 9:10. {MH 409.4}

Through a knowledge of Him are given unto us "all things that pertain unto life and godliness." 2 Peter 1:3. {MH 409.5}

"This is life eternal," said Jesus, "that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent." John 17:3. {MH 410.1}

. . .

As a personal being, God has revealed Himself in His Son. The outshining of the Father's glory, "and the express image of His person," Jesus, as a personal Saviour, came to the world. As a personal Saviour He ascended on high. As a personal Saviour He intercedes in the heavenly courts. Before the throne of God in our behalf ministers "One like unto the Son of man." Hebrews 1:3; Revelation 1:13. {MH 418.1}

Christ, the Light of the world, veiled the dazzling splendor of His divinity and came to live as a man among men, that they might, without being consumed, become acquainted with their Creator. Since sin brought separation between man and his Maker, no man has seen God at any time, except as He is manifested through Christ. {MH 419.1}

"I and My Father are one," Christ declared. "No man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him." John 10:30; Matthew 11:27. {MH 419.2}

Christ came to teach human beings what God desires them to know.
[NOTE - WHEN was it Christ "CAME" to clearly teach what God desires us to know?] In the heavens above, in the earth, in the broad waters of the ocean, we see the handiwork of God. All created things testify to His power, His wisdom, His love. Yet not from the stars or the ocean or the cataract can we learn of the personality of God as it was revealed in Christ. {MH 419.3}

God saw that a clearer revelation than nature was needed to portray both His personality and His character. He sent His Son into the world to manifest, so far as could be endured by human sight, the nature and the attributes of the invisible God. [NOTE - WHEN was this revelation CLEARLY made? In His life on this planet] {MH 419.4}

. . .

Let us study the words that Christ spoke in the upper chamber on the night before His crucifixion. He was nearing His hour of trial, and He sought to comfort His disciples, who were to be so severely tempted and tried. {MH 419.5}

"Let not your heart be troubled," He said. "Ye believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. . . . {MH 419.6}

"Thomas saith unto Him, Lord, we know not whither Thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him. . . . {MH 419.7}

"Lord, show us the Father," said Philip, "and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works." John 14:1-10. {MH 420.1}

. . .

The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. It is thus that God and Christ are one. {MH 422.1}

. . .

Character of God Revealed in Christ

Taking humanity upon Him, Christ came to be one with humanity, and at the same time to reveal our heavenly Father to sinful human beings. [NOTE - When did Christ clearly reveal his Father to sinful human beings? Answer - His life on this planet] He who had been in the presence of the Father from the beginning, He who was the express image of the invisible God, was alone able to reveal the character of the Deity to mankind. He was in all things made like unto His brethren. He became flesh even as we are. He was hungry and thirsty and weary. He was sustained by food and refreshed by sleep. He shared the lot of men; yet He was the blameless Son of God. He was a stranger and sojourner on the earth--in the world, but not of the world; tempted and tried as men and women today are tempted and tried, yet living a life free from sin. Tender, compassionate, sympathetic, ever considerate of others, He represented the character of God, and was constantly engaged in service for God and man.

. . .

The revelation of God's love to man centers in the cross. Its full significance tongue cannot utter, pen cannot portray, the mind of man cannot comprehend. Looking upon the cross of Calvary, we can only say, "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {MH 423.2}

Christ crucified for our sins, Christ risen from the dead, Christ ascended on high, is the science of salvation that we are to learn and to teach. {MH 424.1}
[NOTE - Where is the best revelation of God's love revealed? Christ's life on this planet culminating in the Cross]

. . .

The knowledge of God as revealed in Christ is the knowledge that all who are saved must have. It is the knowledge that works transformation of character. This knowledge, received, will re-create the soul in the image of God. It will impart to the whole being a spiritual power that is divine. {MH 425.2} [NOTE - Revealed when? His life on this planet]

. . .

This is the knowledge which God is inviting us to receive, and beside which all else is vanity and nothingness. {MH 426.4}

Originally Posted By: asygo
So it seems GC might be on to something there. Perhaps there is much to learn about God in the law and the prophets. Maybe the blessings and curses recorded by Moses are not extraneous. Perhaps the short record of Christ's life on this planet doesn't come close to what we can learn of His life and character.

I have never limited Christ life to only His time on this planet. I have quoted EGW which shows that in His life on this planet, the clearest, most important revelations of the character of God have been revealed. The rest of the Bible must be interpreted by what Jesus has revealed about the character of God. And yes, I completely reject asygo's statement underlined above. It is an amazing statement to say the least... and totally untrue.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/26/13 04:26 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: asygo
You didn't actually need that many words to try to explain what I'm doing. It's laid out pretty clearly here, and much more accurately:

1 Chronicles 10
13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. 14 But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.


There's no motive other than to live by every word that comes from God. If He said He did it, I don't need to go to great lengths to "prove" it.
But you had already said that clearly Saul killed himself. Now you're saying God clearly did.

Which is it?
dunno


Quote:
I don't remember saying that Saul killed himself. You asked how God "slew" Saul, and I gave you God's word through the Bible that Saul fell on his sword. But that doesn't negate the Bible evidence specifying who killed whom.
Actually I was asking if you could "find anywhere else in the Bible which contradicts that God slew Saul?"

You presented 1 Samuel:
Originally Posted By: asygo
1 Samuel 31:4
Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it.


kland, did you know that?

You had mentioned nothing about 1 Chronicles. 1 Chronicles tells more specifically how Saul died. Looks to me you would have used that if you had thought I was asking "how" God slew Saul. Now, you don't mention 1 Samuel anymore but quote from 1 Chronicles. It seems to me a reasonable person would conclude you did not know about 1 Chronicles and when you found out, you have changed your tune. Is that the "ruse" you talk about?

Which supports my original statement that ignorance of what the Bible says does not mean it's not true.

Quote:
When something seems contradictory, you should rather doubt yourself than doubt God. Instead of asking, "Which one is true?" you should ask, "How are they both true?"
Exactly.

Either you are saying Saul falling on his sword did not kill him, or that he had no choice and God forced him to fall on his sword, or you need to ask yourself, in what way can we harmonize these statements.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/26/13 05:48 PM

Did God force Pharaoh to harden his heart? And yet, God hardened his heart. Did God force Saul to kill himself? And yet God killed Saul.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/27/13 12:18 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Actually I was asking if you could "find anywhere else in the Bible which contradicts that God slew Saul?"

You presented 1 Samuel:
Originally Posted By: asygo
1 Samuel 31:4
Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it.


kland, did you know that?

You had mentioned nothing about 1 Chronicles. 1 Chronicles tells more specifically how Saul died. Looks to me you would have used that if you had thought I was asking "how" God slew Saul.

Your recollection seems to differ from mine. Let's refresh our memories. Here's a snip from post #155155 made on 08/17/13 08:41 PM (emphasis mine):

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: kland
Regarding Saul, if you don't know how he died, wouldn't you want to know how God "slew" Saul, so you know what to fear if God is "gonna get you"? Was it lighting strikes zapping him from the sky?

1 Samuel 31:4
Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it.


kland, did you know that?

You asked "how" and I gave you God's word for the answer. It wasn't lightning; it was a sword. Assuming you weren't being an obnoxious jerk, I assumed you wanted information, so I gave it to you. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you just lacked information.

But I may have assumed too much.

Originally Posted By: kland
Now, you don't mention 1 Samuel anymore but quote from 1 Chronicles. It seems to me a reasonable person would conclude you did not know about 1 Chronicles and when you found out, you have changed your tune. Is that the "ruse" you talk about?

It turns out that you didn't lack information. You knew about 1 Chronicles. I specifically didn't mention it, giving you just what you asked for. You asked for "how" so I told you "how" Saul was killed. Then you brought up 1 Chronicles yourself, which tells us "who" killed Saul.

Therein lies the ruse. You are desperately seeking to hide your lack, but it has come out in the open. You know what God said, so you don't lack information. What you lack is FAITH. Some may say it's bad genetics, or damaged ribosomes, or some other excuse, but it all comes down to faithlessness. You don't have faith in God's word. It's right there in front of you, plain as day, but you cannot get yourself to accept it. Like many modern Eve's, you want to deviate from what God has said, and live to tell about it.

kland, that path leads to destruction. Satan was lying to Eve when he said that we can go against God's word and everything will still be OK. Your only hope is to submit to God, resist the Devil, and he will flee from you.

God said it, we must believe it. Now, you will be tempted to add "and that's good enough for me." But don't let Satan keep fooling you. It does not have to be good enough for you. You can ask God why, how, who, where, when. Ask Him whatever you want, and He'll answer you whenever you are ready for the answer. But you will NEVER be ready for the answer unless you have submitted to God and accept WHAT He says.

"But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse."

God said He killed Saul. Do you accept it? Unless you do, all your questions will only lead to deeper doubt.

And please don't assume that what seems reasonable to you is what others should do. For example, I wouldn't let liberals decide how I should fulfill God's will for me. You decide what's reasonable for yourself. And as you can see, I don't always answer questions the way you expect them to be answered. And it turns out that my method sometimes elicits more information than expected.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/27/13 01:51 AM


Originally Posted By: asygo
God said He killed Saul. Do you accept it? Unless you do, all your questions will only lead to deeper doubt.


The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, not His pen. Manuscript 24, 1886 (written in Europe in 1886). {1SM 21.2}

God cannot protect those that reject Him. God takes responsibility for that which He does not prevent. The case of Saul, God could not intervene. The same thing happened with Jesus as shown in Mark 6, Luke 4 and Matthew 13, where unbelief prevented good works.

Originally Posted By: EGW
The Teacher from heaven, no less a personage than the Son of God, came to earth to reveal the character of the Father to men, that they might worship Him in spirit and in truth. Christ revealed to men the fact that the strictest adherence to ceremony and form would not save them; for the kingdom of God was spiritual in its nature. Christ came to the world to sow it with truth. He held the keys to all the treasures of wisdom, and was able to open doors to science, and to reveal undiscovered stores of knowledge, were it essential to salvation. He presented to men that which was exactly contrary to the representations of the enemy in regard to the character of God, and sought to impress upon men the paternal love of the Father, who "so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." He urged upon men the necessity of prayer, repentance, confession, and the abandonment of sin. He taught them honesty, forbearance, mercy, and compassion, enjoining upon them to love not only those who loved them, but those who hated them, who treated them despitefully. In this He was revealing to them the character of the Father, who is long-suffering, merciful, and gracious, slow to anger, and full of goodness and truth. Those who accepted His teaching were under the guardian care of angels, who were commissioned to strengthen, to enlighten, that the truth might renew and sanctify the soul. {FE 177.1} [NOTE - this is taking about His mission while He lived as a man on this earth]


Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

Ah - but DID God send the fiery serpents? What does EGW say? NO!

God killed Saul, the same way He destroyed Jerusalem in AD70, and the same way He send fiery serpents to bite the children in the desert.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/27/13 04:05 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
God killed Saul, the same way He destroyed Jerusalem in AD70, and the same way He send fiery serpents to bite the children in the desert.

And the same way that David killed Uriah, right? "By removing his protection."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/27/13 04:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
God killed Saul, the same way He destroyed Jerusalem in AD70, and the same way He send fiery serpents to bite the children in the desert.

And the same way that David killed Uriah, right? "By removing his protection."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
No, they are not even close. The death of Uriah was premeditated murder. In the death of Saul, the destruction of Jerusalem, and the fiery serpents, there was nothing God could do. Did Uriah reject David? No. Why could Jesus do so little healing in His own town? Their unbelief! Why were the serpents no longer restrained? Their unbelief! Uriah trusted David, and David betrayed him. God was rejected by the people people in the wilderness. God was rejected by the people of Jerusalem. If you think that the way Uriah died and the death of Saul are the same, then yes, God is a murderer. But these situations are NOT the same.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/27/13 04:54 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
God killed Saul, the same way He destroyed Jerusalem in AD70, and the same way He send fiery serpents to bite the children in the desert.

And the same way that David killed Uriah, right? "By removing his protection."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
No, they are not even close. The death of Uriah was premeditated murder. In the death of Saul, the destruction of Jerusalem, and the fiery serpents, there was nothing God could do. Did Uriah reject David? No. Why could Jesus do so little healing in His own town? Their unbelief! Why were the serpents no longer restrained? Their unbelief! Uriah trusted David, and David betrayed him. God was rejected by the people people in the wilderness. God was rejected by the people of Jerusalem. If you think that the way Uriah died and the death of Saul are the same, then yes, God is a murderer. But these situations are NOT the same.

Are you trying to say that God does not plan what He does? Don't you suppose that everything He does is premeditated?

David killed Uriah without just cause. God's cause in killing Saul was just. That is the difference. I agree that David's motivation was vastly different than God's, and in that sense, the two scenarios are not comparable. But in the sense of the manner in which the deaths were executed, there is much similarity.

For example, suppose for a moment that David was justified in killing Uriah. Suppose Uriah had deserved death. How would this have changed things if David had used the exact same methodology to extinguish Uriah's life? Would it then have been counted as "murder?"

No, God does not murder. But He does kill. The difference is motive. This difference is defined in the Bible. We've been through that before in another thread, I believe.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/27/13 05:13 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: kland
Actually I was asking if you could "find anywhere else in the Bible which contradicts that God slew Saul?"

You presented 1 Samuel:
Originally Posted By: asygo
1 Samuel 31:4
Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it.


kland, did you know that?

You had mentioned nothing about 1 Chronicles. 1 Chronicles tells more specifically how Saul died. Looks to me you would have used that if you had thought I was asking "how" God slew Saul.

Your recollection seems to differ from mine. Let's refresh our memories. Here's a snip from post #155155 made on 08/17/13 08:41 PM (emphasis mine):

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: kland
Regarding Saul, if you don't know how he died, wouldn't you want to know how God "slew" Saul, so you know what to fear if God is "gonna get you"? Was it lighting strikes zapping him from the sky?

1 Samuel 31:4
Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it.


kland, did you know that?

You asked "how" and I gave you God's word for the answer. It wasn't lightning; it was a sword. Assuming you weren't being an obnoxious jerk, I assumed you wanted information, so I gave it to you. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you just lacked information.
Actually, prior to that in #154958 I had asked:
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: asygo
If the Bible says He did, why should anyone question it?
You mean the, God said it, I believe it, and therefore I can turn my mind off type of attitude?

Can you find anywhere else in the Bible which contradicts that God slew Saul? One other was not aware of it, but being not aware of something does not mean it does not exist.

Where did you answer that question? You then proceeded to say if God said it why should we disagree and that I didn't believe the Bible? I brought you back to my question as to why we should disagree with what you think the Bible says by saying "Regarding Saul,..."




Quote:
Then you brought up 1 Chronicles yourself, which tells us "who" killed Saul.
Could you show me where I brought that text up. I had assumed you were well familiar with the text as several have discussed that in the past. I believe you brought that text up in #155240 and #155333.

Quote:
God said it, we must believe it.
But what did God say?

First you say Saul killed himself.
Then you say God killed him.
Which is it? What are you saying?
dunno


Quote:
God said He killed Saul. Do you accept it? Unless you do, all your questions will only lead to deeper doubt.
But you showed where Saul fell on his own sword. Do you accept God's word in the Bible? Unless you do, all your questions will only lead to deeper doubt.


Quote:
And please don't assume that what seems reasonable to you is what others should do. For example, I wouldn't let liberals decide how I should fulfill God's will for me. You decide what's reasonable for yourself. And as you can see, I don't always answer questions the way you expect them to be answered. And it turns out that my method sometimes elicits more information than expected.

If liberals can recognize wrong and unfairness, why shouldn't we?
Or are you saying tough cookies to them, that's how God is and they and we should get over it?
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/27/13 05:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
God killed Saul, the same way He destroyed Jerusalem in AD70, and the same way He send fiery serpents to bite the children in the desert.

And the same way that David killed Uriah, right? "By removing his protection."
Tell us, do you think Saul was deceived by God? Do you think Saul had no idea?

Quote:
Are you trying to say that God does not plan what He does? Don't you suppose that everything He does is premeditated?
Quote:
No, God does not murder. But He does kill. The difference is motive. This difference is defined in the Bible. We've been through that before in another thread, I believe.
Yes, I believe you had waffled on this idea in the past.

So God does not murder but He kills with premeditation? I'd like to see you wrangle that around your vague distinction between "murder" and "killing"!
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/27/13 09:12 PM

Originally Posted By: green

Are you trying to say that God does not plan what He does? Don't you suppose that everything He does is premeditated? [you are soundling like elle]

David killed Uriah without just cause. God's cause in killing Saul was just. That is the difference. I agree that David's motivation was vastly different than God's, and in that sense, the two scenarios are not comparable. But in the sense of the manner in which the deaths were executed, there is much similarity.

For example, suppose for a moment that David was justified in killing Uriah. Suppose Uriah had deserved death. How would this have changed things if David had used the exact same methodology to extinguish Uriah's life? Would it then have been counted as "murder?"

No, God does not murder. But He does kill. The difference is motive. This difference is defined in the Bible. We've been through that before in another thread, I believe.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
To this we will have to agree to disagree. GOD DESTROYS NO MAN. Killing is a violation of God's law. Lying is a violation of God's law. What was Rebekah's motivation with Jacob and Esau?

The words, “Thou shalt not bear false witness, steal, or kill,” set forth the pattern of behavior no matter what the circumstances, pressures, threats, demands, necessities, advantages, or whatever else it may be. In God’s kingdom and under His principles, the end can never, never, never justify the means. Therefore, in every situation, the law, and not expedience, is to be consulted and obeyed.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/28/13 01:23 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: kland
Actually I was asking if you could "find anywhere else in the Bible which contradicts that God slew Saul?"

You presented 1 Samuel:
Originally Posted By: asygo
1 Samuel 31:4
Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it.


kland, did you know that?

You had mentioned nothing about 1 Chronicles. 1 Chronicles tells more specifically how Saul died. Looks to me you would have used that if you had thought I was asking "how" God slew Saul.

Your recollection seems to differ from mine. Let's refresh our memories. Here's a snip from post #155155 made on 08/17/13 08:41 PM (emphasis mine):

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: kland
Regarding Saul, if you don't know how he died, wouldn't you want to know how God "slew" Saul, so you know what to fear if God is "gonna get you"? Was it lighting strikes zapping him from the sky?

1 Samuel 31:4
Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it.


kland, did you know that?

You asked "how" and I gave you God's word for the answer. It wasn't lightning; it was a sword. Assuming you weren't being an obnoxious jerk, I assumed you wanted information, so I gave it to you. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you just lacked information.

Originally Posted By: kland
Actually, prior to that in #154958 I had asked:
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: asygo
If the Bible says He did, why should anyone question it?
You mean the, God said it, I believe it, and therefore I can turn my mind off type of attitude?

Can you find anywhere else in the Bible which contradicts that God slew Saul? One other was not aware of it, but being not aware of something does not mean it does not exist.

Where did you answer that question?

Yes, you had asked a prior question. And you don't know where I answered it because I did not answer that question. So please don't say I gave any kind of answer when I purposely did not answer.

Originally Posted By: kland
You then proceeded to say if God said it why should we disagree and that I didn't believe the Bible?

You are correct again. And this is where our discussion has stalled. If God said it, why don't you believe it? Do you know better than God?

Originally Posted By: kland
I brought you back to my question as to why we should disagree with what you think the Bible says by saying "Regarding Saul,..."

But you didn't bring back your original question. You asked a new question. You asked "how" God killed Saul. This one I answered, using a very specific verse.

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
Then you brought up 1 Chronicles yourself, which tells us "who" killed Saul.
Could you show me where I brought that text up. I had assumed you were well familiar with the text as several have discussed that in the past. I believe you brought that text up in #155240 and #155333.

That was a bad assumption. I don't read all discussions. I don't even necessarily read all posts in a thread I'm active in, like this one.

You brought up that Scripture in post #155210 (click to see for yourself), which is actually quoted in my post that you referenced. You said, "What I'd like you to find are the plain words in 1 Chronicles 10 and answer the question, Did God slay Saul or did Saul kill himself?" (emphasis mine) And so, at your behest, I went to 1 Chronicles 10 and found the applicable verses.

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
God said it, we must believe it.
But what did God say?

First you say Saul killed himself.
Then you say God killed him.
Which is it? What are you saying?
dunno

Don't play dumb now, kland. You know what God said. You brought up the specific chapter where God said it.

You are not confused about WHAT God said. You are confused because what He said does not match your opinion, and you are having great difficulty letting go. It works that way with all cherished sin.

And don't hide behind your feigned confusion about what I am trying to say. What I say is irrelevant in the big picture. Focus on what God said. Don't make an idol of man's words. Go to God's Word. Submit to God's Word.

If you still don't know what God said, even after all the times I've quoted it, it's not a matter of ignorance. It is now rebellion.

BTW, I just noticed that you never quote it. It's as if you can't even get yourself to copy and paste it. Reminds me of those movies where vampires cower in the presence of garlic...

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
God said He killed Saul. Do you accept it? Unless you do, all your questions will only lead to deeper doubt.
But you showed where Saul fell on his own sword. Do you accept God's word in the Bible? Unless you do, all your questions will only lead to deeper doubt.

I don't have any doubt that Saul fell on his own sword. I found it for you, didn't I? God said it, and I believe it. Yup, I'm sure Saul fell on his own sword.

What I need help finding, if you would be so kind as to return the favor, is a verse that says Saul killed himself. We all know the verse that says God killed him. But is there a verse that says Saul killed himself? Is there a verse that ascribes the killing of Saul to Saul himself?

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
And please don't assume that what seems reasonable to you is what others should do. For example, I wouldn't let liberals decide how I should fulfill God's will for me. You decide what's reasonable for yourself. And as you can see, I don't always answer questions the way you expect them to be answered. And it turns out that my method sometimes elicits more information than expected.

If liberals can recognize wrong and unfairness, why shouldn't we?
Or are you saying tough cookies to them, that's how God is and they and we should get over it?

You can't recognize wrong and unfairness while denying God and His Word. All they have is their own human opinions and feelings as their standard. And if God's ways are not their ways, yes, that is tough cookies for them. If they stiffen their necks and harden their hearts against God's ways, cookies will be the least of their worries.

If you think they are a good guide, then go ahead and follow in their footsteps. You can sit in judgment of God whenever He doesn't meet your standards. But I would rather not go down that road.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/28/13 01:27 AM

If it is true that the hardened sinner dies because God cannot protect those who are completely against Him and they are separated from the source of life and God cannot do anything to prevent their death, why is Satan still alive today? How has he managed to avoid death for so long? Where is he getting his life from?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/28/13 04:48 AM

You should read Patriarchs and Prophets, chapter 1, Great Controversy chapter 1 and chapters 29. And consider:
Originally Posted By: egw
Satan's representations against the government of God, and his defense of those who sided with him, were a constant accusation against God. His murmurings and complaints were groundless; and yet God allowed him to work out his theory. God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by so doing he would have given a precedent for the exercise of force. All the compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. He would not work on this line. He would not give the slightest encouragement for any human being to set himself up as God over another human being, feeling at liberty to cause him physical or mental suffering. This principle is wholly of Satan's creation. {RH, September 7, 1897 par. 7}


Note these points:
1) There is NO precendent for the exercise of force. NONE
2) ALL compelling power is found under Satan's government. Thus, God NEVER uses compelling power.
3) The Lord's principles are NOT of this order.
4) No one is at liberty to cause physical or mental suffering. This is a feature of Satan only

Had God ever killed anyone? No. But does God take responsibility when there is suffering? Yes. Did God kill Saul? Saul committed suicide. Did God send the fiery serpents to bite the people? No. Did God destroy Jerusalem? No. We know how God is involved in all these situations, and more. God does not use compelling force. God destroys no man. We know the cause of all suffering, sickness and death. It is sin.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/28/13 06:15 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
If it is true that the hardened sinner dies because God cannot protect those who are completely against Him and they are separated from the source of life and God cannot do anything to prevent their death, why is Satan still alive today? How has he managed to avoid death for so long? Where is he getting his life from?

Arnold,

I'm realizing more and more the danger of veganism. Brain-damaged vegans cannot reason normally. It is futile to try. We just had a major setback in our work in this region of the world because of a vegan who could not be reasonable, but who cast aside God's workers over a few small differences between them. To extend this conversation is likewise futile. Health of body affects the health of the mind. The health of the mind affects the spiritual experience and understanding. This is why Satan works so hard to destroy us, both soul and body.

When God destroys, it is after Satan has already destroyed the possibility of the soul's salvation. God must then clean up the mess. The real destroyer was Satan. But God will destroy all sinners in the end, and make a clean and pure universe again. Sin cannot clean up its own mess. It is likely only to further spread and contaminate. It is a great evil. Praise God that He is strong and will take charge in the end to bring everything back into perfect order as it was before sin!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/28/13 08:34 AM

Hm - who on this list has admitted to having had B12 deficiency? I know of only one.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/28/13 12:46 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Hm - who on this list has admitted to having had B12 deficiency? I know of only one.
Some are averse to making admissions. It's probably a pride thing.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/28/13 05:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Hm - who on this list has admitted to having had B12 deficiency? I know of only one.
Some are averse to making admissions. It's probably a pride thing.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
False allegations are a violation of the Decalog.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/28/13 07:46 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Yes, you had asked a prior question. And you don't know where I answered it because I did not answer that question. So please don't say I gave any kind of answer when I purposely did not answer.
Well, how am I supposed to know you didn't answer it when it sure seemed like you did by saying Saul fell on his sword?
Quote:
But you didn't bring back your original question. You asked a new question. You asked "how" God killed Saul. This one I answered, using a very specific verse.
Well, maybe it was a pour choice of word, or maybe I was susceptible to another substituting words in another thread. But the Bible says God killed Saul and it says Saul fell on his sword. If God takes responsibility for everything that happens, would that not be "how" without Him actually killing Saul?

Quote:
You are not confused about WHAT God said.

Focus on what God said. Don't make an idol of man's words. Go to God's Word. Submit to God's Word.
And God's word said Saul fell on his sword. Why do YOU choose what you want to believe?

Quote:
If you still don't know what God said, even after all the times I've quoted it, it's not a matter of ignorance. It is now rebellion.
You're right, it is rebellion. Rebellion against you starting out with one verse, but then when you found another one, you switched over to it.

Quote:
BTW, I just noticed that you never quote it. It's as if you can't even get yourself to copy and paste it.
I had started out assuming you were familiar with it. Tom, MM, myself, APL, and others have talked about the verse at length. For years. That's why all we have to do when people are presenting error about God's character is say, "Who killed Saul?"

MM knew about the verse. He didn't know about the one in the first of the chapter. I didn't expect someone not to know about the God slaying Saul one.

Quote:

What I need help finding, if you would be so kind as to return the favor, is a verse that says Saul killed himself. We all know the verse that says God killed him. But is there a verse that says Saul killed himself? Is there a verse that ascribes the killing of Saul to Saul himself?



Quote:
1Ch 10:4 Then Saul said to his armorbearer, "Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lest these uncircumcised men come and abuse me." But his armorbearer would not, for he was greatly afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it. (NKJV)
Think Saul intended his armorbearer to kill him? When he refused, would it be reasonable for him to intend to kill himself by falling on his sword? It's odd to me you are asking for this. Maybe you didn't know this verse and are now convinced? Otherwise, why did you ask this?

Quote:
1Ch 10:5 And when his armorbearer saw that Saul was dead, he also fell on his sword and died. (NKJV)
Dead. Saul fell on his sword and now is dead. Is there anything else you can make of that?


And maybe you haven't read all posts. Consider this one:
Quote:

On the plain of Shunem and the slopes of Mount Gilboa the armies of Israel and the hosts of the Philistines closed in mortal combat. Though the fearful scene in the cave of Endor had driven all hope from his heart, Saul fought with desperate valor for his throne and his kingdom. But it was in vain. "The men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in Mount Gilboa." Three brave sons of the king died at his side. The archers pressed upon Saul. He had seen his soldiers falling around him and his princely sons cut down by the sword. Himself wounded, he could neither fight nor fly. Escape was impossible, and determined not to be taken alive by the Philistines, he bade his armor-bearer, "Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith." When the man refused to lift his hand against the Lord's anointed, Saul took his own life by falling upon his sword. Thus the first king of Israel perished, with the guilt of self-murder upon his soul. {CC 174.2}
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/28/13 10:30 PM

So, like me, you can find no Scripture that specifically says that Saul "killed" himself. He fell on his sword, he died. From that, you INFER that one caused the other. You further add the conjecture that Saul INTENDED to kill himself. But, in all this, not one verse that SAYS Saul killed himself.

You did, however, find inspired text that says Saul killed himself. But you had to leave the Bible to do it, and take it as God-inspired truth.

Interestingly, the Bible specifically states that Saul was *killed* by someone other than Saul. Furthermore, the same author that told you Saul killed himself also says that God destroys sinners, as does the Bible.

God will not always be mocked; He will not long be trifled with. "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." Isaiah 13:9. {PP 167.2}

(Prediction: Now someone is going to accuse me of rejecting the SOP.)
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/28/13 11:07 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
(Prediction: Now someone is going to accuse me of rejecting the SOP.)
No need to.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/29/13 05:39 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Hm - who on this list has admitted to having had B12 deficiency? I know of only one.
Some are averse to making admissions. It's probably a pride thing.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
False allegations are a violation of the Decalog.


I see we are both correct. wink

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/29/13 05:51 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
So, like me, you can find no Scripture that specifically says that Saul "killed" himself. He fell on his sword, he died. From that, you INFER that one caused the other. You further add the conjecture that Saul INTENDED to kill himself. But, in all this, not one verse that SAYS Saul killed himself.

You did, however, find inspired text that says Saul killed himself. But you had to leave the Bible to do it, and take it as God-inspired truth.

Interestingly, the Bible specifically states that Saul was *killed* by someone other than Saul. Furthermore, the same author that told you Saul killed himself also says that God destroys sinners, as does the Bible.

God will not always be mocked; He will not long be trifled with. "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." Isaiah 13:9. {PP 167.2}

(Prediction: Now someone is going to accuse me of rejecting the SOP.)


Arnold,

Mrs. White also says that God killed Saul. She seems to put it this way: God killed Saul, but Saul sped up the process once he had already received his mortal wound. Look at this statement:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
On the plain of Shunem and the slopes of Mount Gilboa the armies of Israel and the hosts of the Philistines closed in mortal combat. Though the fearful scene in the cave of Endor had driven all hope from his heart, Saul fought with desperate valor for his throne and his kingdom. But it was in vain. "The men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in Mount Gilboa." Three brave sons of the king died at his side. The archers pressed upon Saul. He had seen his soldiers falling around him and his princely sons cut down by the sword. Himself wounded, he could neither fight nor fly. Escape was impossible, and determined not to be taken alive by the Philistines, he bade his armor-bearer, "Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith." When the man refused to lift his hand against the Lord's anointed, Saul took his own life by falling upon his sword. Thus the first king of Israel perished, with the guilt of self-murder upon his soul. {CC 174.2}

By following the dictates of Satan, Saul was himself hastening the very result which, with unsanctified ability, he was endeavoring to avert. {CC 174.3}

The counsel of the Lord had been disregarded again and again by the rebellious king, and the Lord had given him up to the folly of his own wisdom. The influences of the Spirit of God would have restrained him from the course of evil which he had chosen, that eventually worked out his ruin. God hates all sin, and when man persistently refuses all the counsel of heaven, he is left to the deceptions of the enemy, to be drawn away of his own lusts, and enticed. {CC 174.4}


It appears the archers had already done their damage. Saul was in no condition either to fight or to flee. He was in an unenviable position of helplessness and hopeless--for he had also rejected God, and God had rejected him. Saul, already wounded badly, hastened his own end.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/29/13 01:27 PM

Just a few questions in this confusing discussion:

Quote:
1 Corinthians 15:26

King James Version (KJV)

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


Perhaps the strongest verse in the Bible? The final enemy. Does this "death" have any meaning without a relationship to something that is alive?

Would God make use of his final - or worst - enemy to achieve His purpose?

Well, Scripture says that God killed Saul?

Let us not forget that the inspired person who wrote that verse used the Hebrew language which was at his disposal. There are several strange things connected with this language which is difficult for us to understand, and that the word he used here, mumth, is in imperfect.

In western languages we have three tenses, past, present and future. In Hebrew there are only two tenses, perfect and imperfect. Perfect is a completed action, imperfect is an uncompleted action.

What does that mean, then, that God's action of killing Saul is an uncompleted action? Is Saul not fully dead yet? Is Scripture here indicating an immortal soul with an eternal burning hell?

Or does this verse show us that we need more of a total picture of God to understand Scripture, unless we want to be some "heretical" Christians?

There might be more to it than you think, right?

Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/29/13 04:32 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
So, like me, you can find no Scripture that specifically says that Saul "killed" himself. He fell on his sword, he died. From that, you INFER that one caused the other. You further add the conjecture that Saul INTENDED to kill himself. But, in all this, not one verse that SAYS Saul killed himself.
I don't know what more you are wanting.

Could you tell us what could possibly be the intent of Saul asking his armor bearer to thrust him through?

And if you believe in Ellen White, what about what Green listed that Saul was determined not to be taken alive. Would you consider that meaning any reasonable person should take the Bible to mean that asking someone to thrust you through means to end your life?


If you are saying that asking someone to thrust you through with a sword is not an intent to die and that then he falling on his sword was not what accomplished killing himself, then what about his armor bearer? He likewise fell on his sword and died. Are you also saying he did not kill himself nor intended to? That it is only speculative inference? It doesn't specifically say he killed himself. Did God kill Saul's armor bearer? They both died in the same way.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/29/13 08:33 PM

What I want you to see is that you are well able to perform solid research and mental gymnastics to arrive at truth. When you want to.

You want to prove that Saul killed himself, but you have no verse that plainly says "kill." You have a vast array of data and logic at your disposal to make your case. And you have made it quite convincingly. Bravo.

But in spite of all your God-given ability to find truth, you fail to accept the plain Word of God that He killed Saul. Open your eyes. It is not God's will that you use His gifts to deny His Word. It is another's will that you are fulfilling.

You and I have been at this for long enough for me to know the caliber of your scholarship. Your recent bouts of density are uncharacteristic.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/29/13 10:08 PM

Talk about mental gymnastics! Saul committed suicide and the Bible is clear.

1 Samuel 31:4-5 Then said Saul to his armor bearer, Draw your sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armor bearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell on it. 5 And when his armor bearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise on his sword, and died with him.

EGW: “Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith.” When the man refused to lift his hand against the Lord’s anointed, Saul took his own life by falling upon his sword.{PP 681.4}

1 Chronicles 10:4-5 Then Saul said to his armor-bearer, "Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, so that these uncircumcised may not come and make sport of me." But his armor-bearer was unwilling, for he was terrified. So Saul took his own sword and fell on it. 5 When his armor-bearer saw that Saul was dead, he also fell on his sword and died. 1 Chronicles 10:13-14 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness; he was unfaithful to the LORD in that he did not keep the command of the LORD; moreover, he had consulted a medium, seeking guidance, 14 and did not seek guidance from the LORD. Therefore the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.

It is clear, Saul killed himself. On the surface, the 1 Chronicles 10:14 says God kills Saul. Dig deep to find the truth. God killed Saul just as He sent the serpents and destroyed Jerusalem.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/30/13 06:59 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
It is clear, Saul killed himself. On the surface, the 1 Chronicles 10:14 says God kills Saul. Dig deep to find the truth. God killed Saul just as He sent the serpents and destroyed Jerusalem.

In other words, God indeed sent serpents and God indeed destroyed Jerusalem.

Or are you saying God dissembled?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/30/13 07:48 AM

God kills just like Jesus did when He was here on earth.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/30/13 07:53 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
God kills just like Jesus did when He was here on earth.

How did Jesus kill when He was here on earth?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/30/13 06:16 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
But in spite of all your God-given ability to find truth, you fail to accept the plain Word of God that He killed Saul. Open your eyes. It is not God's will that you use His gifts to deny His Word. It is another's will that you are fulfilling.
Originally, you said Saul fell on his sword. Now that you found another verse, you are clinging to that one and ignoring the first one you found. You need a specific verse which says Saul killed himself. Well, can you find a specific verse saying what weapon God used to kill Saul? If no murder weapon can be identified, no crime was committed. Maybe you want to repent of your specificity requirement or some future posts may be rather interesting.


Along comes someone else and quotes:
Quote:
2Sa 1:6 And the young man who told him said, "By chance I happened to be on Mount Gilboa; and there was Saul leaning upon his spear; and lo, the chariots and the horsemen were close upon him.
7 And when he looked behind him, he saw me, and called to me. And I answered, 'Here I am.'
8 And he said to me, 'Who are you?' I answered him, 'I am an Amalekite.'
9 And he said to me, 'Stand beside me and slay me; for anguish has seized me, and yet my life still lingers.'
10 So I stood beside him, and slew him, because I was sure that he could not live after he had fallen; and I took the crown which was on his head and the armlet which was on his arm, and I have brought them here to my lord."
He says it's quite obvious that God's word clearly says that an Amalekite killed Saul. God said it, he believes it, and therefore he can turn his brain off.

So which is it?
Is it what you originally listed that Saul killed himself?
Or is it what you found next that God killed Saul?
Or is it an Amalekite killed Saul?

Do you just pick one which matches what you think and go with it without regards to the others?

Or are there some other verses which may give other information? Like I said before, your lack of knowledge does not mean something isn't true. And if you had lack of knowledge concerning Saul, could there also be lack of knowledge concerning serpents in the desert? And even if you can't locate a specific verse, is there enough information in the Bible detailing the character of God that we can know he is not the destroyer, that if we come across something that sounds like God is destroying, we need to reevaluate it in terms of what we know God to be like?
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/31/13 02:10 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
if we come across something that sounds like God is destroying, we need to reevaluate it in terms of what we know God to be like?

And there it is. You will reject God's plain words because it doesn't match "what we know God to be like." You have a very high opinion of what you know. I hope you are never wrong, for it seem unlikely that you can ever learn anything that doesn't match what you already know.

kland, you are no fool, so stop acting like it. Would you take an Amalekite's word over God's word? Open your eyes. Your desire to keep your cherished opinion blinds you.

BTW, I told you Saul fell on his sword. Please stop saying that I deny it, or that I have changed my story.

Before I forget, Saul fell on his sword.

One more thing, Saul fell on his sword.

Your repeated attempts to paint a contradicting picture is sad. But it shows that you are not really trying to study and learn. You are merely trying to stir up contention with foolish arguments.

Tom and I disagreed, and sometimes quite vehemently, on this topic. But he never, ever lied about people. His conviction was so strong that he never needed straw man arguments. He took what people said, tried to understand them, then went from there, whether or not he agreed. The current crop of "God wouldn't hurt a fly" proponents does him a disservice.

With that, I bid you adieu. You and APL can discuss amongst yourselves.
Posted By: asygo

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/31/13 02:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
God kills just like Jesus did when He was here on earth.

How did Jesus kill when He was here on earth?

He cursed a fig tree.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 08/31/13 05:21 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally, you said Saul fell on his sword. Now that you found another verse, you are clinging to that one and ignoring the first one you found. You need a specific verse which says Saul killed himself. Well, can you find a specific verse saying what weapon God used to kill Saul? If no murder weapon can be identified, no crime was committed. Maybe you want to repent of your specificity requirement or some future posts may be rather interesting.

Why would God commit a crime if He killed? That is warped thinking.

The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/01/13 08:08 AM

Originally Posted By: green
Why would God commit a crime if He killed? That is warped thinking.

Ah, God's law? "You shall not kill", Exodus 20:13.

Originally Posted By: EGW
The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3}


And is repeated by people today!
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/01/13 08:24 AM

Do you think that God is bound by every law He has given us? Wow. That is a most amazingly narrow-minded concept.

God's Word also says that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. I suppose, now, that you believe the Sabbath was made for God? Is God obligated to keep it?

Is God wrong for doing as He has promised? He has promised to destroy sin and sinners.

I believe your mind may be past seeing the truth of the following statement, but for the benefit of others, here is a strong testimony regarding what lies ahead.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
“Said the angel: ‘Poor, foolish man knows not what he is doing. He has lifted his puny arm against Omnipotence; he has defied God's law.’ The law of God is a golden link to unite finite man to the infinite God. It links earth to Heaven, and man to God. The transgressor is about to meet the great Lawgiver over his broken law. The wrath of God has long slumbered, but soon, with terrible justice and crushing weight, will his wrath fall upon the transgressor. And that arm that has been stretched forth in rebellion against God's law and would sever the golden link binding earth to Heaven and man to God, will wither while the transgressor shall stand upon his feet. That tongue that has boastingly and proudly spoken against God's law, and made the fourth commandment of none effect, will consume in his mouth while he stands upon his feet. Terrible will be the fate of those who transgress God's law, and lead others in the same Heaven-daring path of rebellion. {LS88 340.3}

“I was then pointed to the flattering things taught by some of these transgressors of God's law. I was shown also a bright light, given by God to guide all who would walk in the way of salvation, and also to serve as a warning to the sinner to flee from the wrath of God, and yield a willing obedience to his claims. While this light should continue, there would be hope; but there would be a time when it would cease,—when he that is holy will remain holy forever, and when he that is filthy will remain filthy forever. When Jesus stands up, when his work is finished in the most holy, then not another ray of light will be imparted to the sinner. {LS88 341.1}

“But Satan flatters some, through his chosen servants, as he flattered Eve in Eden, ‘Thou shalt not surely die;’ and tells them there will be a season for repentance, a time of probation when the filthy can be made pure. The co-workers with Satan and his angels carry the light into the future age, teaching probation after the advent of Christ, which deludes the sinner, and leads the cold-hearted professor to carnal security. They become careless and indifferent, and walk stumblingly over the hours of their probation. The light is made to reach far ahead, where all is total darkness. Michael stands up. Instead of mercy, the deluded sinner feels wrath unmixed with mercy, having awakened too late to the fatal deception. This plan was studied by Satan, and is carried out by ministers who turn the truth of God into a lie.” {LS88 341.2}


Just as the Bible has spoken, God will not keep His anger forever. There will be a time of justice. We are told it is yet future. Yet certain ones like to point to past periods of earth's history and erroneously hold them up as examples of every possible action of God toward sinners. Do they really think that they can control God's actions, or limit them? Can they put God in a box of their own making?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/01/13 09:15 AM

Originally Posted By: green
Do you think that God is bound by every law He has given us? Wow. That is a most amazingly narrow-minded concept.

Wow - that is a most profound statement I think you have ever made green. You are saying God is a sinner! Most profound!
Originally Posted By: EGW
The Lord has taken infinite pains to teach men His will. He has given them His law, which is to govern the world. It demands perfect obedience from rich and poor, high and low. Its divine requirements are that we love God supremely and our neighbor as ourselves. Its principles are binding upon the angels and upon all human intelligences. Without the law there could be no transgression; for "sin is the transgression of the law." "By the law is the knowledge of sin." The standard of righteousness, it is exceeding broad, prohibiting every evil thing. {RH, April 23, 1901 par. 1}

Originally Posted By: EGW
In setting aside the law of God, men know not what they are doing. God's law is the transcript of His character. It embodies the principles of His kingdom. He who refuses to accept these principles is placing himself outside the channel where God's blessings flow. {COL 305.3}


Quote:
Mat_11:28-30 Come to me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke on you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
But if you don't, God will kill you!

Originally Posted By: EGW
All are accountable for their actions while in this world upon probation. All have power to control their actions, if they will. If they are weak in virtue and purity of thoughts, and acts, they can obtain help from the Friend of the helpless. Jesus is acquainted with all the weaknesses of human nature, and if entreated, will give strength to overcome the most powerful temptations. All can obtain this strength if they seek for it in humility. Jesus gives all a blessed invitation who are burdened, and laden with sin, to come to him, the sinner's friend. “Come unto me, all ye that labor, and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” {ApM 31.2}

But green would have us think, that if we don't come to God to HEAL us of our sin, He will then execute you. Sin pays its wage. Jesus has demonstrated the results of sin. Look to Jesus!

Originally Posted By: EGW
The enemy is working continually to supplant Jesus Christ in the human heart, and to place his attributes in the human character, in the place of the attributes of God. He brings his strong delusions to bear upon the human mind, that he may have a controlling power. He seeks to obliterate the truth and abolish the true pattern of goodness and righteousness, in order that the professed Christian world may be swept to perdition through separation from God. He is working in order that selfishness may become world-wide, and thus make of no effect the mission and work of Christ. {RH, April 14, 1896 par. 1}


Hebrews 3:8-10 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/01/13 09:49 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Do you think that God is bound by every law He has given us? Wow. That is a most amazingly narrow-minded concept.
Wow - that is a most profound statement I think you have ever made green. You are saying God is a sinner! Most profound!

Again, you show your inability to comprehend the simplest of matters. I am bound by a law of gravity, as are you. Is God? Is God, then, a sinner? I am bound to a physical-flesh body. Is God? Is it a sin to be "Spirit," instead of "flesh?" There are indeed many laws which God has given us that are for us, not for Him. He does no wrong if He does not abide by them--except in APL's eyes.

Let's look carefully at that quote from Mrs. White you brought out.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The Lord has taken infinite pains to teach men His will. He has given them His law, which is to govern the world. It demands perfect obedience from rich and poor, high and low. Its divine requirements are that we love God supremely and our neighbor as ourselves. Its principles are binding upon the angels and upon all human intelligences. Without the law there could be no transgression; for "sin is the transgression of the law." "By the law is the knowledge of sin." The standard of righteousness, it is exceeding broad, prohibiting every evil thing. {RH, April 23, 1901 par. 1}

Significantly missing in that statement is any reference to God being part of His own dominion. Does His law govern Himself? Or is it a representation of His character?

Why, for example, is God able to create worlds from nothing, including creating our DNA, but it is a sin for us to meddle with that DNA? If God changes the DNA He has made, is He sinning? Yet if we do so, we are indeed sinning.

You see, the mortal mind cannot grasp the greatness of God, nor should it attempt to place God on the same plain as itself.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/01/13 10:21 AM

Originally Posted By: apl
Exo_20:13 You shall not kill.
To which green says
Originally Posted By: green
Do you think that God is bound by every law He has given us?

Green thinks God is not bound by His own law. That is an amazing statement!!! Amazing! You should read Psalms 19, 119. The whole chapters!!!

Psa_19:7-10 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold, yes, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

Psa_119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your law is the truth.

[/quote=green]Significantly missing in that statement is any reference to God being part of His own dominion. Does His law govern Himself? Or is it a representation of His character?[/quote]
God's law is a transcript of His Character. What does this mean? It means His character is conformity to the law.

Originally Posted By: green
Why, for example, is God able to create worlds from nothing, including creating our DNA, but it is a sin for us to meddle with that DNA? If God changes the DNA He has made, is He sinning? Yet if we do so, we are indeed sinning.
Who is the creator? Are you the creator? If the creator restores a person back into the image of God, is that sin? You assume that our DNA is exactly as God has created it. Do you believe it is? Will you answer this question?


Originally Posted By: EGW
God requires perfection of His children. His law is a transcript of His own character, and it is the standard of all character. This infinite standard is presented to all that there may be no mistake in regard to the kind of people whom God will have to compose His kingdom. The life of Christ on earth was a perfect expression of God's law, and when those who claim to be children of God become Christlike in character, they will be obedient to God's commandments. Then the Lord can trust them to be of the number who shall compose the family of heaven. Clothed in the glorious apparel of Christ's righteousness, they have a place at the King's feast. They have a right to join the blood-washed throng. {COL 315.1}

The law is an infinite standard, a transcript of His own character. Christ's life on this earth was a perfect expression of God's law. Christ, who was God! It is by Christ's life on this earth, we learn all we can of the Character of God.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/01/13 10:25 AM

Does God keep His own law? YES.

The law of God is as sacred as God Himself. It is a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, the expression of divine love and wisdom. The harmony of creation depends upon the perfect conformity of all beings, of everything, animate and inanimate, to the law of the Creator. God has ordained laws for the government, not only of living beings, but of all the operations of nature. Everything is under fixed laws, which cannot be disregarded. But while everything in nature is governed by natural laws, man alone, of all that inhabits the earth, is amenable to moral law. To man, the crowning work of creation, God has given power to understand His requirements, to comprehend the justice and beneficence of His law, and its sacred claims upon him; and of man unswerving obedience is required. {PP 52.3}

Like the angels, the dwellers in Eden had been placed upon probation; their happy estate could be retained only on condition of fidelity to the Creator's law. They could obey and live, or disobey and perish. God had made them the recipients of rich blessings; but should they disregard His will, He who spared not the angels that sinned, could not spare them; transgression would forfeit His gifts and bring upon them misery and ruin. {PP 53.1}

Is God bound by physical laws? Green would like to say I will bind God to the law of gravitation. God is bound by His moral law, not the physical laws.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/01/13 11:38 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Does God keep His own law? YES.

The law of God is as sacred as God Himself. It is a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, the expression of divine love and wisdom. The harmony of creation depends upon the perfect conformity of all beings, of everything, animate and inanimate, to the law of the Creator. God has ordained laws for the government, not only of living beings, but of all the operations of nature. Everything is under fixed laws, which cannot be disregarded. But while everything in nature is governed by natural laws, man alone, of all that inhabits the earth, is amenable to moral law. To man, the crowning work of creation, God has given power to understand His requirements, to comprehend the justice and beneficence of His law, and its sacred claims upon him; and of man unswerving obedience is required. {PP 52.3}

Like the angels, the dwellers in Eden had been placed upon probation; their happy estate could be retained only on condition of fidelity to the Creator's law. They could obey and live, or disobey and perish. God had made them the recipients of rich blessings; but should they disregard His will, He who spared not the angels that sinned, could not spare them; transgression would forfeit His gifts and bring upon them misery and ruin. {PP 53.1}

Is God bound by physical laws? Green would like to say I will bind God to the law of gravitation. God is bound by His moral law, not the physical laws.


APL would like to conflate the distinction between moral laws and physical laws, creating a line of division between them which is unsupportable.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Transgression of physical law is transgression of the moral law; for God is as truly the author of physical laws as He is the author of the moral law. His law is written with His own finger upon every nerve, every muscle, every faculty, which has been entrusted to man. And every misuse of any part of our organism is a violation of that law. {COL 347.1}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/01/13 06:48 PM

Originally Posted By: green
APL would like to conflate the distinction between moral laws and physical laws, creating a line of division between them which is unsupportable.
So God can transgress moral law all he wants. Is that what you claim? Yes we have physical laws which govern the universe in which we live. Why is transgression of physical law for us created beings a violation of moral law? For one, violating physical law will KILL you. Is God bound by our physical laws? NO. But the moral law existed BEFORE our creation. It is and always has been unchangeable. And God is not bound by it? BTW - HOW is God's law written on every nerve, muscle and fiber?

Originally Posted By: egw
As in obedience to His natural laws the earth should produce its treasures, so in obedience to His moral law the hearts of the people were to reflect the attributes of His character. Even the heathen would recognize the superiority of those who served and worshiped the living God. {COL 289.2}
Hm - by us not killing, we reflect the Divine character. But Green says God kills, so how is it we reflect the Divine when we do not kill? I guess we are not doing enough killing.

Are we judged by the physical law of the moral law?

The moral law was never a type or a shadow. It existed before man's creation, and will endure as long as God's throne remains. God could not change nor alter one precept of His law in order to save man; for the law is the foundation of His government. It is unchangeable, unalterable, infinite, and eternal. In order for man to be saved, and for the honor of the law to be maintained, it was necessary for the Son of God to offer Himself as a sacrifice for sin. He who knew no sin became sin for us, He died for us on Calvary. His death shows the wonderful love of God for man, and the immutability of His law. . . . {AG 80.3}

Again - is God bound by His moral law or not? Green says NO. Everyone else is bound by it, but not God! Is this truth or a lie?


Originally Posted By: EGW
It is a law both of the intellectual and the spiritual nature that by beholding we become changed. The mind gradually adapts itself to the subjects upon which it is allowed to dwell. It becomes assimilated to that which it is accustomed to love and reverence. Man will never rise higher than his standard of purity or goodness or truth. If self is his loftiest ideal, he will never attain to anything more exalted. Rather, he will constantly sink lower and lower. The grace of God alone has power to exalt man. Left to himself, his course must inevitably be downward. {GC 555.1}
By beholding God we become changed. If our god is on that will torture and kill his subjects, we will become like that god.
Originally Posted By: egw
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!...

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9}


Originally Posted By: EGW
Christ bore the curse of the law, suffering its penalty, carrying to completion the plan whereby man was to be placed where he could keep God's law, and be accepted through the merits of the Redeemer; and by His sacrifice glory was shed upon the law. Then the glory of that which is not to be done away--God's law of ten commandments, His standard of righteousness--was plainly seen by all who saw to the end of that which was done away. {1SM 240.2}
Is God righteous? By what standard to we know God's righteousness?
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/01/13 07:47 PM

Unfortunately there are too many "christians" who serve a tyrant god.

Let us keep them in our prayers.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/01/13 07:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Johann
Unfortunately there are too many "christians" who serve a tyrant god.

Let us keep them in our prayers.

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!...
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/02/13 12:15 AM

and in HIS WORD!
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/02/13 12:55 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
APL would like to conflate the distinction between moral laws and physical laws, creating a line of division between them which is unsupportable.
So God can transgress moral law all he wants. Is that what you claim? Yes we have physical laws which govern the universe in which we live. Why is transgression of physical law for us created beings a violation of moral law? For one, violating physical law will KILL you. Is God bound by our physical laws? NO. But the moral law existed BEFORE our creation. It is and always has been unchangeable. And God is not bound by it? BTW - HOW is God's law written on every nerve, muscle and fiber?

Originally Posted By: egw
As in obedience to His natural laws the earth should produce its treasures, so in obedience to His moral law the hearts of the people were to reflect the attributes of His character. Even the heathen would recognize the superiority of those who served and worshiped the living God. {COL 289.2}
Hm - by us not killing, we reflect the Divine character. But Green says God kills, so how is it we reflect the Divine when we do not kill? I guess we are not doing enough killing.

Are we judged by the physical law of the moral law?

The moral law was never a type or a shadow. It existed before man's creation, and will endure as long as God's throne remains. God could not change nor alter one precept of His law in order to save man; for the law is the foundation of His government. It is unchangeable, unalterable, infinite, and eternal. In order for man to be saved, and for the honor of the law to be maintained, it was necessary for the Son of God to offer Himself as a sacrifice for sin. He who knew no sin became sin for us, He died for us on Calvary. His death shows the wonderful love of God for man, and the immutability of His law. . . . {AG 80.3}

Again - is God bound by His moral law or not? Green says NO. Everyone else is bound by it, but not God! Is this truth or a lie?


Originally Posted By: EGW
It is a law both of the intellectual and the spiritual nature that by beholding we become changed. The mind gradually adapts itself to the subjects upon which it is allowed to dwell. It becomes assimilated to that which it is accustomed to love and reverence. Man will never rise higher than his standard of purity or goodness or truth. If self is his loftiest ideal, he will never attain to anything more exalted. Rather, he will constantly sink lower and lower. The grace of God alone has power to exalt man. Left to himself, his course must inevitably be downward. {GC 555.1}
By beholding God we become changed. If our god is on that will torture and kill his subjects, we will become like that god.
Originally Posted By: egw
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!...

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9}


Originally Posted By: EGW
Christ bore the curse of the law, suffering its penalty, carrying to completion the plan whereby man was to be placed where he could keep God's law, and be accepted through the merits of the Redeemer; and by His sacrifice glory was shed upon the law. Then the glory of that which is not to be done away--God's law of ten commandments, His standard of righteousness--was plainly seen by all who saw to the end of that which was done away. {1SM 240.2}
Is God righteous? By what standard to we know God's righteousness?


You have conflated the terms "murder" and "kill." Your entire doctrine might be remedied if you only understood the distinction between these two words. Since you do not understand this, and since you turn a blind eye to this distinction, you will never be able to grasp how God can "kill" without breaking the moral law, which tells us not to "murder."

In fact, God has told people to kill other people at times. How does this compute? It is because killing and murdering are two different things.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/02/13 05:47 PM

Originally Posted By: green
You have conflated the terms "murder" and "kill." Your entire doctrine might be remedied if you only understood the distinction between these two words. Since you do not understand this, and since you turn a blind eye to this distinction, you will never be able to grasp how God can "kill" without breaking the moral law, which tells us not to "murder."

In fact, God has told people to kill other people at times. How does this compute? It is because killing and murdering are two different things.

And you quite your soul by thinking that there is lawful killing and unlawful killing. Question - if someone attacked you in your home, would you turn the other cheek? Or would you feel perfectly justified in killing your attacker?

As Seventh-day Adventists, great stress has been placed upon the truth that the last conflict will be over the law of God. This has not been overdone. Despite all the emphasis, there has not yet been conveyed the real significance of the place of the law in that final struggle. Generally, it is thought that the issue will simply be proving that the seventh day is the Sabbath, with the corresponding exposure of Sunday as being the day of the man of sin. But the issues will go vastly deeper than this. It is true that Sabbath versus Sunday will be the focal point of the issue, but the whole of the law will be contested, not just one point of it.

The deepest spiritual implications and ramifications of the law will be explored, presented, and controverted as we are doing here now! Because the law is the very expression of the righteousness or character of God, the issue will involve the question of how God keeps that law. Does He kill, destroy, punish, annihilate, and execute? The time will come for the final settlement of the great questions of the law and the character of God to be made before the second advent.

Originally Posted By: EGW
Christ came to magnify the law and make it honorable. He showed that it is based upon the broad foundation of love to God and love to man, and that obedience to its precepts comprises the whole duty of man. In His own life He gave an example of obedience to the law of God. In the Sermon on the Mount He showed how its requirements extend beyond the outward acts and take cognizance of the thoughts and intents of the heart. {AA 505.1}
When is this speaking about? Christ life on this earth! HIs obedience was to the whole law.

Originally Posted By: EGW
all that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son” {8T 286}


Individuals (not just green) actually inject another word into the Scriptures. They say that the law really means, “Thou shalt not lie, steal, or kill&#8213;unlawfully.” Or they express it in these words, “Thou shalt commit no murder,” a distinction in meaning being made between the words kill and murder. Webster’s Third New International Dictionary defines “murder” in this way: “To kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice or willfully, deliberately, and unlawfully.”

In human minds there is a distinction between lawful and unlawful killing. The devil is bent on making is that the law must be broken in order for it to be maintained. The life and teachings of Christ deny this. So does the message of God in the Old Testament.
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/02/13 07:17 PM

Do the JW help? At least in Norwegian they called Jesus Christ a "butcher" He was to butcher all who were not faithful JW on October 1, 1975 in the war of Armageddon to be fought that day.

A third generation JW bought himself a hatchet and was going to kill his wife and children the night before so they would be resurrected later without watching that event. Fortunately his wife prevented it. Later he wrote the book, God lives in Brooklyn by Roar Henriksen.

You will find his story in the magazine Hjemmet, August 26, 2013.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/03/13 07:59 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
You have conflated the terms "murder" and "kill." Your entire doctrine might be remedied if you only understood the distinction between these two words. Since you do not understand this, and since you turn a blind eye to this distinction, you will never be able to grasp how God can "kill" without breaking the moral law, which tells us not to "murder."

In fact, God has told people to kill other people at times. How does this compute? It is because killing and murdering are two different things.

And you quite your soul by thinking that there is lawful killing and unlawful killing. Question - if someone attacked you in your home, would you turn the other cheek? Or would you feel perfectly justified in killing your attacker?

As Seventh-day Adventists, great stress has been placed upon the truth that the last conflict will be over the law of God. This has not been overdone. Despite all the emphasis, there has not yet been conveyed the real significance of the place of the law in that final struggle. Generally, it is thought that the issue will simply be proving that the seventh day is the Sabbath, with the corresponding exposure of Sunday as being the day of the man of sin. But the issues will go vastly deeper than this. It is true that Sabbath versus Sunday will be the focal point of the issue, but the whole of the law will be contested, not just one point of it.

The deepest spiritual implications and ramifications of the law will be explored, presented, and controverted as we are doing here now! Because the law is the very expression of the righteousness or character of God, the issue will involve the question of how God keeps that law. Does He kill, destroy, punish, annihilate, and execute? The time will come for the final settlement of the great questions of the law and the character of God to be made before the second advent.

Originally Posted By: EGW
Christ came to magnify the law and make it honorable. He showed that it is based upon the broad foundation of love to God and love to man, and that obedience to its precepts comprises the whole duty of man. In His own life He gave an example of obedience to the law of God. In the Sermon on the Mount He showed how its requirements extend beyond the outward acts and take cognizance of the thoughts and intents of the heart. {AA 505.1}
When is this speaking about? Christ life on this earth! HIs obedience was to the whole law.

Originally Posted By: EGW
all that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son” {8T 286}


Individuals (not just green) actually inject another word into the Scriptures. They say that the law really means, “Thou shalt not lie, steal, or kill&#8213;unlawfully.” Or they express it in these words, “Thou shalt commit no murder,” a distinction in meaning being made between the words kill and murder. Webster’s Third New International Dictionary defines “murder” in this way: “To kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice or willfully, deliberately, and unlawfully.”

In human minds there is a distinction between lawful and unlawful killing. The devil is bent on making is that the law must be broken in order for it to be maintained. The life and teachings of Christ deny this. So does the message of God in the Old Testament.


I do not know what I would do if confronted with a murderer in my own house. But I can assure you that if I were to kill such a one, I would afterward feel both very miserable for having had to do such a thing, and justified in having done so, for it is lawful in the sight of God.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. (Luke 12:39)


How would the "goodman of the house" have stopped the thief? But Jesus knew the law that He had given the Israelites, through Moses, of His own voice just after having given the Ten Commandments, and the teeth that was in it against a thief in just such a situation.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. (Exodus 22:2)


In other words, it was not against the law to kill the thief that broke in at night. No punishment (blood) would be required. This, then, is what Jesus, during His life on earth, referred back to. His own words. From the "Old" Testament.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/03/13 08:16 AM

God let the people have laws of divorce. Where they good laws? Is that what God wanted? Was this the ideal? God have the people a king. Was this a good thing? Was this the ideal?

Jesus interpreted the laws. God hates divorce. God made the best of the situation. Mark 10:5 And Jesus answered and said to them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. The people did not want to have God as their leader. They wanted to fight their way in the Canaan. Is this what God wanted them to do? No. What did Jesus say to do when you were struck in the face? To hit back, and kill your attacker? No. Turn the other cheek. What did Jesus do when the Jews set out to kill Him? Did He defend Himself? No. Is there no lesson you find in the life of Christ?

I have been reading from the following book this week. The author makes the following profound statement:
Quote:
The use of Carnal Weapons Prohibited
The inheritance which the Lord has promised to His people, the seed of Abraham, is not to be obtained by fighting, except with spiritual weapons--the armour of Christ--against the hosts of Satan. They who seek the country which God has promised, declare that they are strangers and pilgrims on this earth. They cannot use the sword, even in self-defense, much less for conquest. The Lord is their defender. He says: "Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is. For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green." [Jer_17:5-8] {1900 EJW, EVCO 127.2}


Killing is unlawful.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/03/13 08:20 AM

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


Why would God command that which was against His law? Why would He make a law that contradicted another of His laws?

I guess the above verse must not be in your Bible. The trouble is, it is in mine.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/03/13 08:23 AM

If God did wrong in making a command that contradicted His REAL command (whichever one was more "real," I don't know), because of "the hardness of our hearts," then it seems we have pulled God into our own mess, and He has sinned along with us.

Of course, that cannot be!

Therefore, APL's theology is the real "wrong" here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/03/13 08:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: The Bible
And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


Why would God command that which was against His law? Why would He make a law that contradicted another of His laws?

I guess the above verse must not be in your Bible. The trouble is, it is in mine.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
I guess the church is out of harmony then. We should be killing sinners more often, right?
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/03/13 09:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
If God did wrong in making a command that contradicted His REAL command (whichever one was more "real," I don't know), because of "the hardness of our hearts," then it seems we have pulled God into our own mess, and He has sinned along with us.

Of course, that cannot be!

Therefore, APL's theology is the real "wrong" here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

James 2:8-12 If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well: 9 But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

How can you green, kill someone if you love them as yourself? Have you stoned any Sabbath breakers recently? Why not? How about adulterers? Are you breaking the law by not enforcing it?

You can't keep the law by breaking it.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/03/13 09:50 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
You can't keep the law by breaking it.

Very true. Neither can you break the law by keeping it. smile

The law commanded people to use capital punishment for certain offenses. To disobey this law would be to break it, not to keep it. You cannot break the law by keeping it!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/03/13 08:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
You can't keep the law by breaking it.

Very true. Neither can you break the law by keeping it. smile

The law commanded people to use capital punishment for certain offenses. To disobey this law would be to break it, not to keep it. You cannot break the law by keeping it!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Where in the royal law is capital punishment prescribed?
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/03/13 08:23 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: kland
if we come across something that sounds like God is destroying, we need to reevaluate it in terms of what we know God to be like?

And there it is. You will reject God's plain words because it doesn't match "what we know God to be like." You have a very high opinion of what you know. I hope you are never wrong, for it seem unlikely that you can ever learn anything that doesn't match what you already know.
But you are doing the same thing. You KNOW God kills.

Quote:
kland, you are no fool, so stop acting like it. Would you take an Amalekite's word over God's word?
God's word? Ummm... I think you err here.

Weren't both written by the same author and neither were from God directly or both could be considered God's word since it's in the Bible?

Quote:
BTW, I told you Saul fell on his sword. Please stop saying that I deny it, or that I have changed my story.
OK. Maybe it only seemed you changed your story. So do you say both Saul fell on his sword and God killed him? Which?

Personally, I think you are one who sees a contradiction but sees no problem with accepting contradictions and see no need to resolve them.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/03/13 09:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Green
Why would God commit a crime if He killed? That is warped thinking.
So a crime is not a crime because it's based upon its own merits?

Quote:
Do you think that God is bound by every law He has given us? Wow. That is a most amazingly narrow-minded concept.
Wow and that is very papal of you.

What's good for the goose is not good for the gander, huh?


Quote:
Again, you show your inability to comprehend the simplest of matters. I am bound by a law of gravity, as are you. Is God?
Did you just say that if someone rebelliously fails to abide by the law of gravity he is not going to heaven?


Quote:
You have conflated the terms "murder" and "kill." Your entire doctrine might be remedied if you only understood the distinction between these two words. Since you do not understand this, and since you turn a blind eye to this distinction, you will never be able to grasp how God can "kill" without breaking the moral law, which tells us not to "murder."
Yes, that's something you've never been able to distinguish. Can you now?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/04/13 09:35 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Where in the royal law is capital punishment prescribed?

Playing ignorant, or just ignorant?

What is stoning? What is hanging? What is burning? Does one not die from such punishments as these? And does the Bible really never command anyone to use such punishments as these?

A few examples...
Originally Posted By: The Bible
21:14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.
21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

21:29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
22:20 He that sacrificeth unto [any] god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/04/13 09:37 AM

CAPITAL PUNISHMENT


CAPITAL PUNISHMENT, the standard penalty for crime in all ancient civilizations.

In the Bible

Many of the crimes for which any biblical punishment is prescribed carry the death penalty. The three methods of executing criminals found in the Bible are stoning, burning, and hanging.

STONING

Stoning was the instinctive, violent expression of popular wrath (Ex. 17:4, 8:22; Num. 14:10; I Sam. 30:6; I Kings 12:18; II Chron. 10:18), and is often expressly prescribed as a mode of execution (Lev. 20:2, 27, 24:16; Num. 15:35; Deut. 13:11, 17:5, 21:21, 22:21, et al.). As the survival of vindicta publica, it was and remained characterized by the active participation of the whole populace (Lev. 24:16; Num. 15:35; Deut. 17:7; et al.) - all the people had to pelt the guilty one with stones until he died. Stonings were presumably the standard form of judicial execution in biblical times (Lev. 24:23; Num. 15:36; I Kings 21:13; II Chron. 24:21).

BURNING

Burning is mentioned as a pre-Sinaitic punishment (Gen. 38:24). As a mode of judicial execution it is prescribed in respect of two offenses only (Lev. 20:14, 21:9), but it seems to have been used to aggravate the punishment of stoning, the corpse being burned after execution (Josh. 7:25). It is also reported as a non-Jewish (Babylonian) punishment (Dan. 3:6). There is no biblical record to indicate whether and how judicial executions were ever carried out by burning.

HANGING

Hanging is reported in the Bible only as either a mode of execution of non-Jews who presumably acted in accordance with their own laws (e.g., Egyptians: Gen. 40:22; II Sam. 21:6-12: Philistines; and Persians: Esth. 7:9), or as a non-Jewish law imported to or to be applied in Israel (Ezra 6:11), or as an extra-legal or extra-judicial measure (Josh. 8:29). However, biblical law prescribes hanging after execution: every person found guilty of a capital offense and put to death had to be impaled on a stake (Deut. 21:22); but the body had to be taken down the same day and buried before nightfall, "for an impaled body is an affront to God" (ibid., 23).

Talmudic Law

Talmudic law distinguished four methods of judicial execution (arba mitot bet din): stoning, burning, slaying, and strangling. In no area can the genius of the talmudic law reformers better be demonstrated than in that of capital punishment. Two general theories were propounded which, though dated from a period too late to have ever stood the test of practical application (see below), reflect old traditions and well-established ways of thinking: namely, first, that "love your neighbor as yourself" (Lev. 19:17) was to be interpreted as applying even to the condemned criminal - you love him by giving him the most humane ("the most beautiful") death possible (Sanh. 45a, 52a; Pes. 75a; Ket. 37a); secondly, that judicial execution should resemble the taking of life by God: as the body remains externally unchanged when God takes the life, so in judicial executions the body should not be destroyed or mutilated (Sanh. 52a; Sifra 7:9).

STONING

Stoning was not only confined to the 18 offenses for which the Bible had expressly prescribed it (Maim., Yad, Sanhedrin 15:10), but instead of having all the people kill the convicted person by pelting stones at him a "stoning place" was designed from which he was to be pushed down to death (Sanh. 6:4). This must not be too high, so that the body should not be mutilated falling down (Rashi, Sanh. 45a), and not too low, so that death would be instantaneous. One of the hermeneutical reasons given for this change of the law was the scriptural rule that "the hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death" (Deut. 17:7); it is true that "the hand of all the people [should be on him] afterward" (ibid.), but it is the hand of the witness which is to put him to death. A mode of "stoning" had therefore to be devised in which the witness would not only be assured of the first chance to lay hands on the convicted person, but also of the certainty of thereby putting him to death (Sanh. 6:4). Talmudic jurists may have been influenced by Roman law (Saxum Tarpeium of the Twelve Tables 8:13f., 8:23) or by Syrian or Greek laws (cf. II Macc. 6:10), or perhaps by a single biblical precedent with prisoners of war (II Chron. 25:12) - what they attained was a more humane substitute for the biblical stoning, by which the danger of mutilation was considerably reduced and death accelerated. Maimonides justifies the talmudic method with the reflection that it really made no difference whether stones were thrown at one or one was thrown on the stones (Maimonides, Comment. to Sanh. 6:4). A great penal reform was achieved with the exclusion, contrary to biblical command, of the general public from the execution of death sentences and the elimination therefrom of all traces of vindicta publica. The participation of witnesses - and perhaps also the blood avenger - was not eliminated because they were regarded as a lesser evil in comparison with professional executioners.

BURNING

Burning remained confined to the *adultery of a priest's daughter and to certain forms of *incest (Sanh. 9:1; Maim. Yad, Sanhedrin 15:11). Here again the question arose of how to execute by burning without destroying the body: an old tradition has it that when Aaron's sons were consumed by divine fire (Lev. 10:2) only their souls were burnt, their bodies remaining intact (Sanh. 52a); in accordance with this, a mode of burning which would leave the body intact had to be devised. The man to be burnt was to be immersed in mud up to his knees (so that he should not fall); two kerchiefs were then to be bound round his neck, each to be held in the hands of one witness and drawn in opposite directions until he opened his mouth, and then a burning wick was to be thrown into his mouth "which would go down into his bowels" (Sanh. 7:2). As will be seen, this mode of execution is almost identical with that of strangling, it being reasonable to suppose that the wick will no longer burn when it arrives in the bowels, but suffocation will already have supervened. Maimonides substitutes hot lead or zinc for the comparatively harmless mishnaic wick (Sanh. 15:3), taking the wick to be a metallic substance, but insisting that as little pain as possible should be inflicted (Comment. to Sanh. 7:2). There is no record that this method of burning was ever actually practiced. There is a report that a priest's daughter was burnt for adultery by being bound with bundles of grapevine which were then ignited (Sanh. ibid.). The explanation there given was that this may have been the method employed by a Sadducean court, leading some scholars to conclude that that had been the original biblical mode of burning, the Sadducees rejecting later oral law modifications. The same older method of burning is reported to have been adopted by a later Babylonian scholar, Ḥama b. Tobiah, who was rebuked for it (Sanh. 52b). That burnings may also have taken place at the stake appears from midrashic sources (cf Gen. R. 65:22; Mid. Ps. 11:7). Josephus reports that Herod ordered men who had incited others to desecrate the Temple to be burnt alive and their accomplices to be killed by the sword (Wars, 1:655).

SLAYING

Slaying by the sword was the mode of executing murderers and the inhabitants of the subverted town (Sanh. 9:1). As for the subverted town, it is the biblical prescript that its inhabitants be "put to the sword" (Deut. 13:16); and as for murderers, a slave murdered by his master must be "avenged" (Ex. 21:20), and as God is said to "avenge" by the sword (Lev. 26:25), the murderer of the slave, and a fortiori of the free man, is to be executed by the sword (Sanh. 52b). Slaying consisted in decapitating with a sword, "in the way practiced by the [Roman] government" (Sanh. 7:3). There ensued a discussion, which continued for centuries (cf. Tos. to Sanh. 52b), whether this would not contravene the injunction, "neither shall ye walk in their statutes" (Lev. 18:3). One scholar thought it would be less cruel or mutilating, and less Roman-like, to have the convict lay his head on a block and decapitate him with a hatchet, but the majority held that to be worse (Sanh. 7:3). While there was no particular mode of execution for murder prescribed in the Bible, it is probable that originally such executions were by way of *talion: in the same manner in which the victim had been murdered, his murderer would be executed (cf. Philo, Spec., 3:83ff.; Jub. 5:31; Jos., Ant., 4:279). If that be so the talmudic reform would equalize the law and have death made instantaneous in all cases. There are no reports of murderers having been judicially executed by the sword, but kings are reported to have used this mode of execution, not necessarily for murderers (cf. Jos., Ant., 14:450, 464; Acts 12:2). It became the law that the king, who may order the execution of rebels and of offenders against his majesty even without judicial conviction, always executes with the sword (Maim., Yad, Melakhim 3:8, Sanhedrin 14:2). Indeed, God, too, kills by the sword (Num. 14:16; Lam. 2:21).

STRANGLING

Strangling is the residuary capital punishment; where no other mode of execution is prescribed, the death penalty is carried out by strangulation (Sanh. 52b, 84b, 89a), supposed not only to be the most humane but also the least mutilating (Sanh. 52b). The mishnaic procedure resembles that for burning. The convicted man is immersed in mud up to his knees, two kerchiefs are bound round his neck and then drawn in opposite directions by the two witnesses until he suffocates (Sanh. 7:3). Strangling is applied in six capital offenses (Sanh. 11:1; Yad Sanh. 15:13). There is no report of this mode of execution ever having been carried out. (For strangulations by hanging, see *Extraordinary Remedies.) Post mortem hangings were restricted by talmudic law, some holding that only executions by way of stoning should be followed by a post mortem hanging, and the majority view being that these hangings should be limited to the two offenses of blasphemy and idolatry only (TJ, Sanh. 6:4, 45b).

Though in strict law the competence to inflict capital punishment ceased with the destruction of the Temple (Sanh. 52b, Ket. 30a; cf. Sanh. 41a, 40 years earlier), Jewish courts continued, wherever they had the power (e.g., in Muslim Spain), to pass and execute death sentences - not even necessarily for capital offenses as defined in the law, but also for offenses considered, in the circumstances prevailing at the time, as particularly dangerous or obnoxious (e.g., *informers: Yad, Ḥovel u-Mazzik 8:11), or even for such offenses alone as distinguished from those originally punishable under the law (cf. Resp.Rosh 17:1). In order not to give the appearance of exercising sanhedrical jurisdiction, they would also normally refrain from using any of the four legal modes of execution (Resp. Maharam of Lublin, 138); but isolated instances are found of stoning (Zikhron Yehudah, 75), slaying (ibid., 58; Resp. Rosh. 17:2), and strangling (Zekan Aharon 95), along with such newly devised or imitated modes of execution as starvation in a subterranean pit (Resp. Rosh 32:4), drowning, bleeding, or delivering into the hands of official executioners (S. Assaf, Ha-Onshin Aḥarei Ḥatimat ha-Talmud, no. 48). In most cases, however, the execution of death sentences was probably left to the discretion of the persons who were authorized or assigned by the court to carry them out (cf. Resp. Rema, 11).

[Haim Hermann Cohn]

In Practice in the Talmud

It is of extreme difficulty to determine whether the modes of capital punishment given above, and based on the detailed discussion, mainly in the tractate Sanhedrin, reflect actual practice, or whether they were academic discussions, as, for instance, are the detailed discussions on the sacrifices. Thus the law of the "stubborn and rebellious son" covers five mishnayot (Sanh. 8:1-5) and four folios of the Babylonian Talmud (68b-72a), and it is laid down that he is put to death by stoning and then hanged (ibid., 46a). Yet it is stated that "It never happened and it never will happen" and that the law was given merely "that you may study it and receive reward" (for the pure study; Tosef., Sanh. 11:6; Sanh. 71a), though on the other hand in the talmudic passage R. Jonathan protests "I saw him and sat on his grave." The same statement is made in the case of the death penalty for communal apostasy (Tosef., Sanh. 14:1) and the same reason given for its study.

Much more pertinent, however, is a passage of the Talmud which explicitly compares the study of, and the discussion on the various death penalties with that on the sacrifices. The halakhah was established in the case of the death penalty for an adulterous woman. R. Joseph asked, "Is there need to establish a halakhah for the messianic age (the Sanhedrin no longer having jurisdiction in capital offenses)?" Abaye answered, "If so, we should not study the laws of sacrifices, as they also apply to the messianic age. But we say 'Study and receive reward'" (Sanh. 51b). Similarly, the passage in Mishnah Makkot 1:10: "A Sanhedrin that puts a man to death once in seven years is called a murderous one. R. Eleazar ben Azariah says 'Or even once in 70 years.' R. Tarfon and R. Akiva said, 'If we had been in the Sanhedrin no death sentence would ever have been passed'; Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel said: 'If so, they would have multiplied murderers in Israel.'" Instructive though this is, it is merely an academic discussion, the right of imposing capital punishment having been taken from the Sanhedrin by the Romans a century before, "40 years before the Destruction of the Temple" (Sanh. 41a; TJ, Sanh. 1:18a). The rabbis agreed that with the destruction of the Temple the Sanhedrin was precluded from inflicting capital punishment (see above).

The Talmud actually asks whether the statement of Eleazar b. Azariah was one of censure or reflected the fact of the rarity of death sentences, and leaves the question undecided, as it does for the question as to how R. Tarfon and R. Akiva would have prevented the death verdict being passed (but see Makk. 7a).

That the discussions are largely academic is reflected in the language of the Mishnah. Of capital punishment by the sword it is stated that "they used to decapitate him, as the [Roman] government does [at the present time]" (cf. Tosef., Sanh. 9:10) and R. Judah proposes another method. It goes on to state how "they used to" fulfill the method of death by strangulation (ibid., 7:3). No less significant is the fact that R. Akiva himself, who would have abolished capital punishment, enters into the halakhic discussion on it as fully as his colleagues (cf. ibid., 11:7, 12:2).

All that one can do is to assemble the available evidence. That the Sanhedrin had the power of inflicting the death sentence and that they exercised it is historically attested. Herod was arraigned before it on a capital charge, although he was enabled to escape and avoid the penalty (Jos., Ant., 14:168-70). Judah b. Tabbai admitted that he had wrongly sentenced a perjured witness to death (TJ, Sanh. 6:4, 23a-Tosef., Sanh. 6:6). The son of his colleague, Simeon b. Shetaḥ, was also wrongly condemned to death through false witness, and when the witnesses confessed their perjury the condemned man refused to take advantage of it lest his father, the head of the Sanhedrin, be accused of favoritism, and he went to his death, though innocent (TJ, loc. cit.). It is also clear from an incident vividly described by Simeon b. Shetaḥ that the laws of evidence were strictly adhered to (Tosef., Sanh. 8:3). One anonymous case is cited in the same context. "It happened that a man was being led to his execution. They said to him, 'Say, "May my death be an atonement for all my sins.'" He replied 'May my death be an atonement for all my sins, except for this one (for which I have been sentenced to death). If I am guilty of it, may my death not be an atonement, and the Bet Din and all Israel shall be guiltless'" (the version in the Babylonian Talmud adds "but may the witnesses never be forgiven""). When the matter was reported to the sages, their eyes filled with tears, but they said, "It is impossible to reverse the decision, since the matter is endless; [he must be executed] but his blood is on the necks of the witnesses" (TJ Sanh. 6:5, 23a).

Nevertheless, in none of those cases is the manner of execution given and the remarkable fact emerges that in the two cases cited where the mode of execution is explicitly stated the verdicts were extra-judicial. One was the action of Simeon b. Shetaḥ in sentencing 80 women in Ashkelon to hanging for witchcraft (Sanh. 6:4, cf. Sanh. 46a. Derembourg suggests that Simeon b. Shetaḥ is a mistake for the Hasmonean), while of the other it is stated: "It once happened that during the Greek period a man was sentenced to death by stoning for riding a horse on the Sabbath. Not that he was liable to death, but because the special circumstances of the time demanded it" (Sanh. 46a).

What is perhaps the most cogent evidence that the talmudic discussions on the death sentence did not reflect the actual practice is provided by a third instance. In Sanhedrin 7:2 R. Eleazar b. Zadok gave evidence of an actual case of death by burning which differed diametrically from that given by the Mishnah. The answer was given that "the Sanhedrin at that time was not competent." In the Tosefta (9:11) and the Jerusalem Talmud (7:2, 24b) Eleazar b. Zadok vividly describes the circumstances under which he witnessed it. "I was a child and was being carried on my father's shoulders and I saw it," to which his colleagues replied "You were then a child, and the evidence of a child is inadmissible." That the incident happened is therefore definite; the rabbis in the two replies were concerned with establishing their theoretical view of the law even when it conflicted with the actual practice of the past. There are no recorded cases of execution by strangulation or the sword. It would seem therefore that discussions on the various modes of execution and the details of their implementation were made to "study and receive the reward therefore," i.e., academic. As is evident from the above quoted mishnah in Makkot, the whole tendency of the rabbis was toward the complete abolition of the death penalty.

[Louis Isaac Rabinowitz]

In the State of Israel

The death penalty was in force in Israel for offenses under the Nazis and Nazi Collaborators (Punishment) Law, 5710 - 1951 and under the Penal Law, 5737 - 1977, for treason and assisting the enemy in times of actual warfare (Sections 97, 98, 99). In addition, a military tribunal may impose the death sentence upon a soldier for offenses of treason committed in times of actual warfare (Military Justice Law, 5715 - 1955, Section 43) and military courts in the administered territories are empowered to impose the death penalty for certain offenses, though such rulings must be unanimous and can only be given by a panel of justices all of whom have at least the rank of lieutenant colonel. The death penalty has only been carried out in one instance (in 1962) following the conviction of Adolf *Eichmann for crimes under the Nazis and Nazi Collaborators (Punishment) Law, 5710 - 1951. The death penalty for offenses under this law was also imposed in the *Demjanjuk case (in 1988) but was not carried out following his acquittal in the Supreme Court. The proliferation of brutal terrorist acts, and the imposition of life sentences instead of capital punishment, led the military courts to state (cf. Ram 3009/89 Army Pros. v. Ahmed Gibril Ottrrzan Takrzrru) that though the death penalty may be a more appropriate punishment, they were bound "to uphold principles of the State of Israel, the moral concepts of Jewish tradition, in which a Sanhedrin that passed a death sentence was considered to be a 'a bloody Sanhedrin.'" This refers to the statement in the Mishnah (Mak. 1:10; Mak. 7a) that a Sanhedrin that kills (gives the death penalty) once in seven years (R. Eleazer b. Azariah said: once in 70 years) is called "bloody" (ḥovlanit, the term "ḥovel" generally implying a type of injury in which there is blood).

This position of Jewish Law and the related developments over the generations were often the basis for Supreme Court deliberations in cases in which a person was murdered but the findings and evidence connecting the suspected murderer to the commission of the offense were circumstantial only. There were cases in which despite the quantity and probity of the findings, there was no direct evidence to prove that it was the suspect who actually committed the act. In assessing the position in Jewish Law regarding the possibility of relying on circumstantial evidence the Court discussed the various techniques adopted in Jewish Law over the generations in the attempt to relax the strict evidentiary requirements prescribed by the original Jewish Law, which placed an onerous burden on the Jewish courts in their attempts to deal with murderers and dangerous criminals.

In the judgment in Nagar (CA 543/79 Nagar v. State of Israel 35 (1) PD 113), the Supreme Court addressed the question of whether the suspects could be convicted of murder even though the court had no direct evidence of their having committed the offense, and given that the body itself had not been found. The Supreme Court (Justice M. Elon) referred to a previous Supreme Court ruling (Cr.A. 112/69 Muhamad Halil 23 (1) PD 733) which examined the disparity between the position adopted by Jewish Law regarding the offense of murder and the position adopted by modern systems of law, having reference to the far-reaching statements of the tannaim R. Tarfon and R. Akiva, who said:"Had we been in the Sanhedrin [during the period when it possessed capital jurisdiction] no man would ever have been killed" (Mish., Mak., 7:1). Further on, the judgment cites statements made by certain amoraim, explaining how the judge can disqualify any testimony on murder and render any piece of evidence circumstantial, thereby precluding its admissibility: "Did you note whether he (the victim) was suffering from some fatal condition or was in good health?" R. Ashi said: "Even if the reply is that he was in good health, there may have been a lesion where the sword struck [from which he would have died in any event]."

On this basis, further on in the decision, Justice Silberg concluded that a modern legal system cannot endorse the position in Jewish Law, which is prepared to rely on remote eventualities, on the basis of which it exempts dangerous criminals from punishment "since there is a need for judicial action to punish dangerous criminals, it is necessary to disregard 'remote possibilities,' i.e., exceptional, unlikely eventualities, even though this may possibly cause a miscarriage of justice. In other words, the legislature was aware of this danger, but found it to be necessary, for in its absence, the needs of the law would never be met (p. 741 of judgment).

In the Nagar judgment (pp. 163-71) Justice Elon discussed the various developments in Jewish Law with respect to this sensitive and fundamental issue. First of all, the aforementioned view of R. Akiva and R. Tarfon was a minority view, which merited the ironic demurrer of the tanna. R. Simeon b. Gamaliel that "they too would have multiplied the number of murderers in Israel." An absolute moratorium on enforcement of judgments against murderers would lead to the loss of the court's deterrent power, and thus lead to the increase of bloodshed (see Rashi ad loc. TB, Mak. 7a).

In fact, in its original format, Jewish Law was stringent in its requirements for direct evidence, and in this context Maimonides makes the following illuminating observations on the strict evidentiary requirements of Jewish Law (Sefer ha-Mitzvot, Negative Commandments, 290), "that even if A pursues B with intent to kill and B takes refuge in a house, and the pursuer follows him, and we enter the house after them and find B in his last gasp and his enemy, A, standing over him with a knife in his hand, and both of them are covered with blood, the Sanhedrin may not find the pursuer A liable for capital punishment, since there are no direct witnesses who actually saw the murder..." The reason given by Maimonides is that if the court was permitted to convict a suspect of a criminal offense not on the basis of the unequivocal testimony of witnesses who actually witnessed the act, then the court might soon find itself convicting in criminal offenses on the basis of a "the judge's speculative evaluation of the evidence." Maimonides concludes his comments with the observation that "it is better and more desirable that a thousand guilty persons go free than that a single innocent person be put to death (a statement that later on became a wellknown maxim, see G. Williams, The Proof of Guilt (1963) 186ff.).

Towards the end of the tannaitic period, a principle in Jewish criminal law was enunciated though it had actually been in practice for many years. The acceptance of this principle accommodated a substantive change in Jewish criminal law, both with respect to sanctions and also with respect to evidence and procedure:

It was taught: R. Eliezer b. Jacob said: I have heard that the court may impose flogging and punishment not prescribed in the Torah - not for the purpose of transgressing the law of the Torah, but in order to make a fence around the Torah.

Justice Elon pointed out that on the basis of this fundamental provision, which enabled the courts to deviate from the original law of the Torah in criminal and evidentiary law, in accordance with the needs of the time and the place, both the courts and the communal leaders, utilizing their authority to enact communal regulations (see *Takkanot), adopted detailed legislation in the area of penal law. Formally speaking this legislation was referred to as "exigencies of the hour," but in effect it became part of the substantive Jewish Law. Jewish courts all over the Jewish Diaspora used this authority at various times, even to the extent of imposing capital punishment, without the Court of Twenty Three, and without complying with the strict evidentiary requirements of the original Jewish Law (see Jewish Law, 515-19).

Rabbenu Asher, upon his arrival in Spain at the beginning of the 14th century, states that he was surprised to discover that the Jewish courts in Spain had arrogated to themselves capital jurisdiction and were even imposing capital punishment. In one of his responsa he writes:

...You surprised me greatly by your inquiries about capital jurisdiction. For in all the countries of which I have heard, there is no capital jurisdiction, except here in Spain. And I was astonished to discover upon my arrival that the courts adjudicate capital matters in the absence of a Sanhedrin, and they informed me that they had governmental authorization, and the community used its jurisdiction to save... and I permitted them to persist in their custom, but I never gave my consent to an execution... (Responsum, Rosh, 17:8).

However, despite the reservations expressed by the Asheri regarding capital punishment, in the particular question put to him concerning a Jew who blasphemed the name of God in public, he was prepared to abide by the questioner's position, writing that "It is fitting that the name of Heaven be sanctified by the elimination of this evildoer. And do as you deem appropriate ... because I know that your intention is to sanctify the Divine name, and you will be successful in fulfilling God's will."

In contrast with the Asheri's almost forced acknowledgment of the capital jurisdiction exercised by Jewish courts in Spain, his son, R. Judah b. Asher (Spain, North Africa, end of 14th century) praised and thanked the non-Jewish authorities for allowing the Jewish courts to exercise capital jurisdiction:

It is well known that from the day the Sanhedrin was exiled from the Chamber of Hewn Stone, jurisdiction over criminal cases [under the law of the Torah] has been abrogated for Jews, and the only purpose for the law today is to protect the current generation against wrongdoing. Blessed be the Almighty, who has inclined the hearts of the rulers of the land to give to the Jews the authority to judge and wipe out evildoers. Without this, the Jews could not survive in this country. Moreover, many Jews who would have been executed by non-Jewish judges have been saved by the Jewish judges. And the law we apply in criminal matters is not in full conformity with the Torah (Resp. Zikhron Yehudah, 58).

Most of the cases in which capital punishment was imposed were for convictions of murder. Hence we find a responsum of R. Isaac b. Sheshet Barfet (Spain and N. Africa, end of 14th century) when asked regarding a person accused of murder, and the nature of the evidence on the matter:

You know that the law applicable to criminal cases in these times when the government has granted criminal jurisdiction to Jewish courts is not the strict law [i.e., biblical], for jurisdiction over criminal cases [under the law of the Torah] has been abrogated. However, in order to "create a safeguard," the courts, when the exigencies of the time demand it, impose flogging and punishment not prescribed in the Torah.

And if the death penalty - although not prescribed by the Torah - was carried out for other offenses because of the exigencies of the time, then it goes without saying that it applies in cases of murder, concerning which our Sages were most stringent.... In any event, in order to "create a safeguard," since one of them was killed, if you decide that the death penalty is called for because a crime has been committed heinously, violently, and deliberately (it appears that they lay in wait for him [the victim] at night and during the day, and they openly brandished weapons against him in the presence of the communal leaders), then you may [impose the death penalty] ... even when there are no eyewitnesses, if there are convincing proofs and valid grounds (Resp. Ribash, 251; see also Resp. Zikhron Yehudah, 58).

In an additional responsum the Ribash ruled that for the same reason it is also possible to rely on the confession of a litigant, supplemented by circumstantial evidence (similarly to the provision in the law of evidence practiced in the State of Israel, which allows the conviction of the accused on the basis of a confession given outside the court, with the addition of "something extra"):

...Jewish courts [at this time] impose flogging and punishment not prescribed by the law, for capital jurisdiction was abrogated, but in accordance with the needs of the time, and even without unequivocal testimony, so long as there are clear grounds to show that he [the accused] committed the offense. In such a case, it is the practice to accept the defendant's confession even in a capital case, even where there is no clear proof, in order that what he says, together with some measure of corroboration, may shed light on what happened (ibid., 234).

Not every part of the Jewish diaspora enjoyed such wide autonomous criminal jurisdiction, and even within a given location, the extent of juridical authority fluctuated over time. As we have seen, the Spanish Jewish center enjoyed broad criminal jurisdiction - even including power to inflict capital punishment - for an extended period. Similarly we find that such jurisdiction also existed in a later period in the Jewish community of Poland. For example, in a responsum of R. Meir of Lublin, a leading Polish halakhic authority in the 16th century, he rules that the courts even have the power to impose capital punishment, by virtue of the principle of "imposing punishment not prescribed in the Torah," in order to create a barrier. Even so, on many occasions, the Jewish courts in Poland preferred that the actual sentence be carried out by the non-Jewish authorities (Resp. Maharam of Lublin, 136; Resp. Eitan ha-Ezraḥi, 43-44).

These principles were succinctly set forth in the codificatory literature, "Even though there is no jurisdiction outside the Land of Israel for capital punishment, flogging, or fines, if the court deems that it is an exigency of the time, in as much as the crime is rampant among the people, it may impose the death penalty, monetary fines, or other punishments" (Tur, ḤM, ch. 2, and Sh. Ar. ibid.). Apparently, the reason for the brevity of these codes in their exposition of criminal law lies in the limited criminal jurisdiction of Jewish communities of that time, in contrast to their extensive civil and administrative jurisdiction, and the great detail in which these fields were regulated in the codificatory literature of that period. Another factor may have been that criminal activity was not widespread in the Jewish communities of that time, even though here too there were "high" periods and "low" periods" (p.170 of judgment).

The Court summed up its comments in the Nagar case by emphasizing that even though it was necessary to exercise capital jurisdiction and convict on the basis of circumstantial evidence, in contravention of the provisions of the original Jewish Law, it "constantly emphasized that although clear and direct testimony may not always be available, the evidence must be such that the judges 'believe it to be the truth'" (Resp. Rashba, attributed to Naḥmanides, 279) and that the charge must "proved to be well grounded"; and that "the sole intention is to pursue justice and truth and there is no other motive" (Resp. Zikhron Yehudah, 79). The judgment also cites (ibid., 166) the comments of Maimonides, who warned the court to be doubly careful in its exercise of this special jurisdiction, so that the human image and dignity would not be violated more than was necessary: "All these matters are carried out in accordance with what the judge deems necessary under the exigencies of that time, and his acts should always be for the sake of heaven and he should not take a frivolous attitude to human dignity" (Maim. Yad. Hil. Sanhedrin, 24:10).

[Menachem Elon (2nd ed.)]

BIBLIOGRAPHY:

S. Mendelsohn, Criminal Jurisprudence of the Ancient Hebrews (1891), 256f. (index), S.V.; S. Gronemann, in: Zeitschrift fuer vergleichende Rechtswissenschaft, 13 (1899), 415-50; A. Buechler, in: MGWJ, 50 (1906), 539-62, 664-706; D. de Sola Pool, Capital Punishment among the Jews (1916); V. Aptowitzer, in: JQR, 15 (1924/25), 55-118; S. Katz, Die Strafe im talmudischen Recht (1936), 44-52; ET, 2 (1949), 163f.; 10 (1961), 587-92; S. Ch. Cook, in: Ha-Torah ve-ha-Medinah, 3 (1950/51), 163f.; J.M. Tikoczinsky, ibid., 4 (1951/52), 33-44; B. Rabinowitz-Teomim, ibid., 45-81; S. Israeli, ibid., 82-89; Ch. Z. Reines, in: Sinai, 39 (1955/56), 162-8; J.M. Ginzberg, Mishpatim le-Yisrael (1956), 381 (index), S.V. Mitat Beit Din; G.J. Blidstein, in: Judaism, 14 (1965), 159-71; E.M. Good, in: Stanford Law Review, 19 (1966/67), 947-77; H. Freedman, in: The Bridge (Sydney), 3 (1967), no. 2, p. 4-8; H. Cohen, in: ILR, 5 (1970), 62-63. ADD. BIBLIOGRAPHY: M. Elon, Ha-Mishpat ha-Ivri (1988), 1:11-12, 97, 185 n. 86, 259, 283, 306, 422f., 435, 500, 648, 791f., 808; 2:842, 845, 1103; 3:1353, 1382, 1616; idem, Jewish Law (1994), I:10f., 109. 207 n. 86, 303f., 334f., 365f., 515f.; 2:531, 609, 802, 970f., 990; 3:1030. 1033f., 1326; 4:1615, 1646, 1926; idem, Jewish Law (Cases and Materials) (1999), 200ff.; M. Elon and B. Lifshitz, Mafte'aḥ ha-She'elot ve-ha-Teshuvot shel Ḥakhmei Sefarad u-Ẓefon Afrikah 2 1986), 332, 337, 343; B. Lifshitz and E.Shohetman, Mafte'ah ha-She'elot ve-ha-Teshuvot shel Ḥakhmei Ashkenaz, Ẓarfat ve-Italyah (1997), 230; S. Assaf, Ha-Onshin Aḥarei Ḥatimat ha-Talmud (1922); Ginsburg, Mishpatim le-Israel (1956) Y. Bazak, Harigat Nefashot ve-Dineiha be-Safrut ha-Shut, Divrei ha-Kongres ha-Olami ha-Ḥamishi le-Mada'ei ha-Yahadut, 3 (1969), 37.

Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/04/13 04:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Green
Why would God commit a crime if He killed? That is warped thinking.
Quote:
Do you think that God is bound by every law He has given us? Wow. That is a most amazingly narrow-minded concept.
Do you see any parallels with this:

"Let us be convinced that all is well and right when the superior commands it", wrote Loyola. And again: "Even if God gave you an animal without sense for master, you will not hesitate to obey him, as master and guide, because God ordained it to be so."

That is,
the sacrifice of the will and laying aside of one's own judgment

We must see black as white, if the Church says so

as he is totally subjected to his masters; any doubt or scruple would be imputed to him as sin
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/04/13 04:45 PM

"...self-defence, as the word implies, is nothing but selfishness. And this is the sole principle that moves either nations or men to fight." {January 23, 1896 EJW, PTUK 52.3}
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/04/13 05:33 PM

Exodus 20:13.

Quote:
King James Version (KJV)

13 Thou shalt not kill.



Quote:
New International Version (NIV)

13 “You shall not murder."


Which is the "superior" version here?

How will you verify your choice?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/05/13 05:51 AM

That is very possibly the most egregious translation error of the KJV. The correct translation for that Hebrew word is "murder." Unfortunately, this error has had many ramifications--to the point of, ironically, affecting the modern theologies of those who claim to like the modern versions which have it translated correctly!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/05/13 04:19 PM

Green, the other part of the question was,

"How will you verify your choice?"
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/05/13 04:37 PM

kland,

I have already, some years ago, studied the Hebrew word in that case. The Hebrew wording for that verse is not, to my knowledge, under dispute.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/05/13 06:20 PM

I asked which is the "superior" version here? According to your reply it is the NIV rendering. Thank you! That means that the KJV is not always superior, even by your standard.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/05/13 06:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
kland,

I have already, some years ago, studied the Hebrew word in that case. The Hebrew wording for that verse is not, to my knowledge, under dispute.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Exodus 20:13 You shall notH3808 kill.H7523

- Original: &#1512;&#1510;&#1495;
- Transliteration: Ratsach
- Phonetic: raw-tsakh'
- Definition:
1. to murder, slay, kill
   a. (Qal) to murder, slay
      1. premeditated
      2. accidental
      3. as avenger
      4. slayer (intentional) (participle)
   b. (Niphal) to be slain
   c. (Piel)
      1. to murder, assassinate
      2. murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)
   d. (Pual) to be killed
- Origin: a primitive root
- TWOT entry: 2208
- Part(s) of speech: Verb

- Strong's: A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces that is kill (a human being) especially to murder: - put to death kill (man-) slay (-er) murder (-er).
Total KJV Occurrences: 47
death, 1
Num_35:30

kill, 4
Exo_20:13; Num_35:27; Deu_4:42; Deu_5:17

killed, 1
1Ki_21:19

killing, 1
Hos_4:2

manslayer, 2
Num_35:6; Num_35:12

murder, 3
Psa_94:6; Jer_7:9; Hos_6:9

murderer, 13
Num_35:16(2); Num_35:17(2); Num_35:18(2); Num_35:19; Num_35:21(2); Num_35:30; Num_35:31; 2Ki_6:32; Job_24:14

murderers, 1
Isa_1:21

slain, 3
Jdg_20:4; Psa_62:3; Pro_22:13

slayer, 17
Num_35:11; Num_35:25; Num_35:26; Num_35:27; Num_35:28; Deu_4:42; Deu_19:3; Deu_19:4; Deu_19:6; Jos_20:3; Jos_20:5; Jos_20:6; Jos_21:13; Jos_21:21; Jos_21:27; Jos_21:32; Jos_21:38

slayeth, 1
Deu_22:26
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/05/13 11:17 PM

J: How will you verify your choice?
G: I verified it before.

*smile*


APL, according to that definition, Green is saying God is a breaker of His 10 commandments by being a killer, slayer, and murderer. But then again, he says God is above questioning, just like the jesuits are taught about their leaders.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/06/13 07:50 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
J: How will you verify your choice?
G: I verified it before.

*smile*


APL, according to that definition, Green is saying God is a breaker of His 10 commandments by being a killer, slayer, and murderer. But then again, he says God is above questioning, just like the jesuits are taught about their leaders.


I'm sorry that you stoop to lying, kland, about my position in your haste to misrepresent me.

"Kill" does not equal "murder." I have posted on this multiple times. You still purposely twist my words to say the opposite.

God does not murder. God kills. There is a difference.

God forbids murder in the Ten Commandments. Yet God commanded killing multiple times. Is God a hypocrite? Far from it. YOU are the one who would try to represent God in this manner by saying that killing and murdering are the same thing.

God is not pleased with such "scholarship."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/06/13 07:58 AM

Keep in mind that one cannot "murder" without "killing." Any definition of "murder," therefore, must necessarily include "kill" in some form. That is a given.

But one most certainly can "kill" without "murder." This is where logic is necessary. And perhaps some "commonUNcommon sense." Unfortunately, many choose their own private opinions these days above a clear "thus saith the LORD." The Bible explains in clear terms the difference between killing and murdering. I have posted on this before, more than once.

It seems that no matter how much good gravel is placed into the slough, we still have sufficient muck to mire the feet of those who carelessly walk through.

My challenge to you is this: find all of the places where killing is commanded, then find all of the places where murder is forbidden. Having compiled those lists, look specifically at the commands of God surrounding the duty of avengement. How would the avenger do his job properly? What would have been improper on his part?

Answering those last two questions will lead you to the clear distinction between killing and murdering.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/06/13 08:40 AM

The wrath of God may be delayed, but it is not to be delayed forever.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The Son of God pities fallen man. He knows that the law of his Father is as unchanging as himself. He can only see one way of escape for the transgressor. He offers himself to his Father as a sacrifice for man, to take their guilt and punishment upon himself, and redeem them from death by dying in their place, and thus pay the ransom. The Father consents to give his dearly beloved Son to save the fallen race; and through his merits and intercession promises to receive man again into his favor, and to restore holiness to as many as should be willing to accept the atonement thus mercifully offered, and obey his law. For the sake of his dear Son the Father forbears a while the execution of death, and to Christ he commits the fallen race. {3SG 46.3}


For those who have false views about the Cross, Mrs. White has some wisdom.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Some have limited views of the atonement. They think that Christ suffered only a small portion of the penalty of the law of God; they suppose that, while the wrath of God was felt by His dear Son, He had, through all His painful sufferings, the evidence of His Father’s love and acceptance; that the portals of the tomb before Him were illuminated with bright hope, and that He had the abiding evidence of His future glory. Here is a great mistake. Christ’s keenest anguish was a sense of His Father’s displeasure. His mental agony because of this was of such intensity that man can have but faint conception of it. {OFC 208.6}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/06/13 09:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The dark cloud of human transgression came between the Father and the Son. The interruption of the communion between God and His Son caused a condition of things in the heavenly courts which cannot be described by human language. Nature could not witness such a scene as Christ dying in agony while bearing the penalty of man's transgression. God and the angels clothed themselves with darkness, and hid the Saviour from the gaze of the curious multitude while He drank the last dregs of the cup of God's wrath (Letter 139, 1898).


Some interesting points:

1) Our sins were as a "dark cloud" that eclipsed the communion of Father and Son, leaving the Saviour to bear the penalty of man's transgression.

2) Jesus "drank the last dregs of the cup of God's wrath." This resulted in His death.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
I would call on all who would win heaven, to take warning. Do not devote your precious probationary time to sewing together fig leaves to cover the nakedness which is the result of sin. As you look into the Lord's great moral looking glass, His holy law, His standard of character, do not for a moment suppose that it can cleanse you. There are no saving properties in the law. It cannot pardon the transgressor. The penalty must be exacted. The Lord does not save sinners by abolishing His law, the foundation of His government in heaven and in earth. The punishment has been endured by the sinner's substitute. Not that God is cruel and merciless, and Christ so merciful that He died on Calvary's cross to abolish a law so arbitrary that it needed to be extinguished, crucified between two thieves. The throne of God must not bear one stain of crime, one taint of sin. In the councils of heaven, before the world was created, the Father and the Son covenanted together that if man proved disloyal to God, Christ, one with the Father, would take the place of the transgressor, and suffer the penalty of justice that must fall upon him (MS 145, 1897). {6BC 1070.4}


3) "The penalty must be exacted."

4) The punishment of death "has been endured by the sinner's substitute."

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The law of Jehovah, the foundation of his government in Heaven and upon earth, was as sacred as God himself; and for this reason the life of an angel could not be accepted of God as a sacrifice for its transgression. His law was of more importance in his sight than the holy angels around his throne. The Father could not abolish nor change one precept of his law to meet man in his fallen condition. But the Son of God, who had in unison with the Father created man, could make an atonement for man acceptable to God, by giving his life a sacrifice, and bearing the wrath of his Father. Angels informed Adam that, as his transgression had brought death and wretchedness, life and immortality would be brought to light through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. {1SP 50.2}


5) Jesus bore "the wrath of His Father" "by giving His life a sacrifice."

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
I appeal to all who profess to believe the truth, to consider the character and life of the Son of God. He is our example. His life was marked with disinterested benevolence. He was ever touched with human woe. He went about doing good. There was not one selfish act in all His life. His love for the fallen race, His desire to save them, was so great that He took upon Himself the wrath of His Father, and consented to suffer the penalty of that transgression which plunged guilty man in degradation. He bore the sins of man in His own body. "He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." {1T 482.2}


6) Jesus "took upon Himself the wrath of His Father."

7) He "consented to suffer the penalty of that transgression which plunged guilty man in degradation."

The penalty was death. The wrath of God imposed it. Jesus accepted His Father's wrath in our place, that we need not be subjected to it.

blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/06/13 09:12 AM

"he Law is a “transcript of His own character" {COL 315}

"thou shalt not kill" (Exo_20:13, KJV).

"God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself" {COL 84}. "God destroys no one" {8T 120}.

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan" {GC 36}

"Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree coming upon the earth, and why? The Lord’s restraining power is not exercised. The world has disregarded the word of God. They live as though there were no God. Like the inhabitants of the Noachic world, they refuse to have any thought of God. Wickedness prevails to an alarming extent, and the earth is ripe for the harvest" {6T 388, 389}

"This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it" {7T 141}

"In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God … will say to the angels, “No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work" {RH, September 17, 1901}

When Jesus was asked to destroy the Samaritans who had rejected Him, He replied to His disciples, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village” (Luk_9:55-56)

"There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas" {DA 487}

"Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan’s government. The Lord’s principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God’s government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power" {DA 759}

"The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God’s government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority" {DA 22}

We know that God does nothing that is contrary to the principles of His government. Therefore, He does not use force. This principle is stated with certainty in The "Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer" {MH 113}

IT IS CLEAR - God is not an executioneer, punisher, or destroyer. So when you read statements that seem contrary, we must dig deeper, in faith is our LOVER Father, to find harmony of all scripture. "God Destroys no man", is so clear, but this statement has no effect on those that want to see God as THE destroyer. They say, God HAS to use FORCE. They read God slew Saul, and accept that God personally killed Saul, that God is an executioner, that God had to use force. We know that Saul committed suicide, from the Bible and EGW. We need to use Bible definitions, not dictionary definitions of the meaning of "therefore He slew him". "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isa_55:8-9). We need to interpret keywords, such as "destroy", "wrath", judgement", "punish", etc. from the Bible view, not the human view.

The Bible says, "God destroys", I accept that. But God's ways are not my ways. God's way of destroying is altother different from human ways, there is no similarity. The Bible needs to be its own expositor, it own dictionary. We need to leave preconcieved ideas and opinions.

The outstanding example of this is found in the experience of Christ's apostles. They were born into a Jewish world wherein the prevailing expectation for the coming of the Messiah was the advent of an all-conquering king. As those boys grew, they heard this conversation around them. It was preached to them in church and taught to them in school. The result was the building up of strong, preconceived notions of Christ's work and ministry. When the real Savior appeared, those ideas formed a fearful barrier that for a long time made it impossible for Christ to bring to them the truth regarding His ministry and mission. Only when He was finally able to sweep away those preconceived ideas could He teach them the truth.

So it is with us today. Every one of us should humbly recognize that we do not possess accurate wisdom, knowledge, concepts, and ideas and that these erroneous thought patterns are indeed a great problem.

"There is not always perfect order or apparent unity in the Scriptures." {1SM 20.1} The stamps of minds are different. All do not understand expressions and statements alike. Some understand the statements of the Scriptures to suit their own particular minds and cases. Prepossessions, prejudices, and passions have a strong influence to darken the understanding and confuse the mind even in reading the words of Holy Writ. {1SM 20.3}

The disciples traveling to Emmaus needed to be disentangled in their interpretation of the Scriptures. Jesus walked with them disguised, and as a man He talked with them. Beginning at Moses and the prophets He taught them in all things concerning Himself, that His life, His mission, His sufferings, His death were just as the Word of God had foretold. He opened their understanding that they might understand the Scriptures. How quickly He straightened out the tangled ends and showed the unity and divine verity of the Scriptures. How much men in these times need their understanding opened. {1SM 20.4}

"The Scriptures are not to be adapted to meet the prejudice and jealousy of men. They can be understood only by those who are humbly seeking for a knowledge of the truth that they may obey it" {COL 112}

Jesus plainly said, “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (Joh_8:32)

"Do you ask, What shall I do to be saved? You must lay your preconceived opinions, your hereditary and cultivated ideas, at the door of investigation. If you search the Scriptures to vindicate your own opinions, you will never reach the truth. Search in order to learn what the Lord says. If conviction comes as you search, if you see that your cherished opinions are not in harmony with the truth, do not misinterpret the truth in order to suit your own belief, but accept the light given. Open mind and heart that you may behold wondrous things out of God’s Word" {COL 112}

The whole world lies in ignorance as to who God really is, and those of us who have lived in this world have been unconsciously influenced by this atmosphere. There is no subject, then, in which the need to lay aside preconceived ideas and opinions is more critical than this one.

Rev_20:10 KJV "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." The dictionary defintion of "for ever" says the wicked are tortured for ever in hell. But what is the Bible definition? Oba_1:16 KJV "For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been." Mal_4:1 KJV "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

It is obviously impossible for the wicked to be as though they had not been and to be burned up, leaving neither root nor branch, and yet, at the same time, eternally exist. The only safety lies in discarding dictionary definitions of words wherever those words are a problem and seeking a revised understanding of the meaning of the statements. The only way to discover an alternative meaning is by making the Bible, and the Bible only, its own dictionary, and therefore, its own interpreter. When we turn to the Old Testament we discover that “everlasting” and “for ever” sometimes signify a very limited time.

The Passover was kept "for ever", Exo_12:24, but it ended (Heb_9:24-26) Arron and his sons were to offer incense "for ever", 1Ch_23:13, and have an everlasting priesthood, Exo_40:15, but it ended, Heb_7:11-14. And others, Jon_2:6 vs Jon_1:17. It is clear that "for ever" by the dictionary, is not the same as by the Bible which is a limited time.

God destroys, but how? We need to Bible defintion, not the dictionary defintion. We KNOW from EGW, that God destroys no man. We KNOW that Saul committed suicide. We KNOW that God does not use force! Ponder Sodom and Gomorrah. "Christ came to the world to sow it with truth. He held the keys to all the treasures of wisdom, and was able to open doors to science, and to reveal undiscovered stores of knowledge, were it essential to salvation" {FE 177} God's ways are not our ways.

The Bible terminology is consisttently used when describing God's action in destruction of people and ciies. Not always does the Bible explain the meaning of these words, but there are several (Mat_18:16) references that tells us how, and that is sufficient. It is not important what we THINK the Lord meant when He uses certain expressions, our job is to KNOW FOR SURE what the Lord meant. Saul is a perfect example. We KNOW that God did not raise His hand to slay Saul, Saul killed himself. "He killed him" is not the works we would use to describe this event. This was Saul separating himself from God, and that is what ultimately killed him. In order to truthfully understand God’s thought as expressed in His word, the mind must be re-educated to think this way when reading about God’s ways as distinct from our ways.

The presentation of one witness is never sufficient to establish the truth of the Bible. A second must be added.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’” (Mat_23:37-39).

For the same reasons, and in harmony with the same principles, God left Israel exactly as He had left Saul. Thus was removed from them the only effective defense from their many enemies.

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet, “O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;” “for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.” Hos_13:9; Hos_14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan’s vindictive power over those who yield to his control.…

But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint [placed upon Satan] is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.… The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all [regarding] … the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty {GC 35, 36}

Of particular value is the reference made to the common interpretation of what was done there. "Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God." In other words, this is the way in which most people view God’s actions in this incident.

In the death of Saul and the destruction of the nation in AD 70, God consistently followed the same course. In both cases He worked with infinite love and patience to win them to the ways of righteousness and safety, but they utterly rejected it, forcing Him to withdraw and leave them to the fate that lay nearest. For Saul, it was the invasion of the Philistines, for Jerusalem, the Roman onslaught.

God described what He did to Saul in words very different from the ones we would use to describe what He did. God said, "I destroyed him." We would say, "Saul destroyed himself."

The third witness is the fiery serpents. We KNOW that God did not send the serpents, yet the Bible say He did.

And there is the story of Job...
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/06/13 04:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
J: How will you verify your choice?
G: I verified it before.

*smile*


APL, according to that definition, Green is saying God is a breaker of His 10 commandments by being a killer, slayer, and murderer. But then again, he says God is above questioning, just like the jesuits are taught about their leaders.


I'm sorry that you stoop to lying, kland, about my position in your haste to misrepresent me.

"Kill" does not equal "murder." I have posted on this multiple times. You still purposely twist my words to say the opposite.
Again, Green, it's hard to communicate with you.

You're not even beginning to hear what I'm saying.


Quote:
God does not murder. God kills. There is a difference.

God forbids murder in the Ten Commandments.
You attempted to compare what God did to Saul as to what David did to Uriah.

How does that fit or not fit with any distinctions between killing and murder you hope to make?
Posted By: Johann

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/06/13 10:17 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Again, Green, it's hard to communicate with you.

You're not even beginning to hear what I'm saying.



It is difficult to disagree with you on these points!
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/08/13 07:24 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
You attempted to compare what God did to Saul as to what David did to Uriah.

How does that fit or not fit with any distinctions between killing and murder you hope to make?

Which death was deserved? Which one represented justice, and which was merely malicious?

Do you not see a difference?

I used the example of Uriah to illustrate the fact that the sword can be used by someone who is not responsible for the death. The responsibility for Uriah's death fell squarely upon David, and it was "murder." David himself, as you well know, was nowhere near the scene of Uriah's death. David didn't "kill" Uriah. But David "murdered" him.

Do you see the difference?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/09/13 12:33 PM

Please see my recent post in the "second death" thread that relates to God's wrath.

SIMPLY CLICK HERE.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/09/13 04:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
You attempted to compare what God did to Saul as to what David did to Uriah.

How does that fit or not fit with any distinctions between killing and murder you hope to make?

Which death was deserved? Which one represented justice, and which was merely malicious?

Do you not see a difference?
Would you be saying here the distinction of killing or murder is determined whether the one killed deserved death or not?

Quote:
I used the example of Uriah to illustrate the fact that the sword can be used by someone who is not responsible for the death. The responsibility for Uriah's death fell squarely upon David, and it was "murder." David himself, as you well know, was nowhere near the scene of Uriah's death. David didn't "kill" Uriah. But David "murdered" him.

Do you see the difference?
No. You compared what you said God did to what David did.

The responsibility for Uriah's death fell squarely upon David.
You say the responsibility for Saul's death fell squarely upon God.

David was nowhere near the scene of Uriah's death.
God was nowhere near the scene of Saul's death.

David didn't kill Uriah. But David "murdered" him.
Therefore, according to you, God "murdered" Saul.

How can you possibly see a difference?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/10/13 08:48 AM

kland,

The distinction between murder or killing has little to do with whether or not the death is deserved. It has more to do with something else that you will discover better for yourself by researching the matter from the Bible. However, whether or not the death is deserved has to do with whether or not it was "just." Justice sometimes involves the death penalty. When we understand that, then we understand how God might use the death penalty in strict justice.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/10/13 09:26 AM

Green - reread the OP.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/10/13 12:18 PM

APL,

Perhaps you, Johann and kland might like to reread THIS POST which was but a few posts past the OP and which I don't remember having been answered.

APL, your universalizing worldview makes some serious assumptions which are both flawed and which fail to use proper logic. Your assumptions are in error. One of those assumptions is that if the devil does something, God could not or would not do it. This is flawed.

It is true that the devil does a great many things that God also might do. When it suits his purpose, Satan can call Jesus the "Son of God." When it suits his purpose, Satan can quote scripture. Just because Satan may do these things does not mean that God would not do them. It does not mean that it is necessarily "evil" to do those things.

The problem with your view is not so much the view itself as it is the attitude represented by your view and which changes your position into a half truth.

Just because the Bible says things like "evil will slay the wicked" does not mean that God cannot or would not do likewise. It does not mean that this is the ONLY manner in which a wicked person can meet his or her demise. It simply tells us a fact, that evil will cause the death of a wicked person. The text does NOT say "all the wicked will only ever be slain by evil." APL, you read into the text what is not there.

The Bible verses you quote are true. They are righteous. But you are not dividing them rightly. You add your own thoughts to them, and soon are presented with other verses which your view simply cannot answer. Instead, then, of adjusting your views, you attack the one who presents those unanswerable points. You malign his or her motives. You would make it appear that by quoting those verses of the Bible the individual is focused upon the "evil" which you perceive to be presented in them--as if your entire focus here were somehow better. But is it?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/10/13 03:32 PM

Originally Posted By: green
Perhaps you have forgotten Ai, King Saul and Agag, or other cases in which the people rebelled by NOT killing those they were supposed to kill.
Perhaps you have also forgotten that these stories are of a people that have rejected God. Were the Israelites ever suppose to fight? Never! The first attack on Ai was a rejection of divine guidance. Was Israel ever to have a king besides God? Never! The asking for a king was a rejection of God. The history of Israel is of rejection of God with a few notable exceptions, such as the exodus, Jacob before Esau. The people were NEVER suppose to fight. But the children of Israel did fight, and under God's direction, but this in no way proves that is was God's purpose that they should fight. The people's minds were blinded by unbelief, so that they could not perceive the purpose of God for them. They did not grasp the spiritual realities of the kingdom of God, but were content with shadows instead; and the same God who bore with their hardness of heart in the beginning, and strove to teach them by shadows, when they would not have the substance, still remained with them, compassionately considerate of their infirmities. God himself suffered them, because of the hardness of their hearts, to have a plurality of wives, and even laid down rules regulating polygamy, in order to diminish as far as possible the resulting evils, but that does not prove that He designed it for them. We well know that "from the beginning it was not so." So when Jesus forbade His followers to fight in any cause whatever, He introduced nothing new, any more than when He taught that a man should have but one wife, and should cleave to her as long as he lived. He was simply enunciating first principles--preaching a thorough reformation! And note, that after all their fighting, Israel did not gain their promised inheritance.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/10/13 03:46 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
Perhaps you have forgotten Ai, King Saul and Agag, or other cases in which the people rebelled by NOT killing those they were supposed to kill.
Perhaps you have also forgotten that these stories are of a people that have rejected God. Were the Israelites ever suppose to fight? Never! The first attack on Ai was a rejection of divine guidance. Was Israel ever to have a king besides God? Never! The asking for a king was a rejection of God. The history of Israel is of rejection of God with a few notable exceptions, such as the exodus, Jacob before Esau. The people were NEVER suppose to fight. But the children of Israel did fight, and under God's direction, but this in no way proves that is was God's purpose that they should fight. The people's minds were blinded by unbelief, so that they could not perceive the purpose of God for them. They did not grasp the spiritual realities of the kingdom of God, but were content with shadows instead; and the same God who bore with their hardness of heart in the beginning, and strove to teach them by shadows, when they would not have the substance, still remained with them, compassionately considerate of their infirmities. God himself suffered them, because of the hardness of their hearts, to have a plurality of wives, and even laid down rules regulating polygamy, in order to diminish as far as possible the resulting evils, but that does not prove that He designed it for them. We well know that "from the beginning it was not so." So when Jesus forbade His followers to fight in any cause whatever, He introduced nothing new, any more than when He taught that a man should have but one wife, and should cleave to her as long as he lived. He was simply enunciating first principles--preaching a thorough reformation! And note, that after all their fighting, Israel did not gain their promised inheritance.


APL,

Where do you get this picture? Why do you believe Israel was never supposed to fight? Did not God command them to do so? Did not God bless them for doing so? Where is your support now?

Yes, there were times when God fought for them. But then...if God was doing the fighting, this doesn't seem to solve your problem either. You have established in your mind that all fighting is "evil," so why would God fight?

The Bible does not support such a view, however. There is a time to fight. It is not evil when done at the right time, for the right reasons, and with the right spirit.

Here are some "fighting" verses.
Originally Posted By: The Bible
The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace. (Exodus 14:14)

And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand. (Exodus 17:9)

The LORD your God which goeth before you, he shall fight for you, according to all that he did for you in Egypt before your eyes; (Deuteronomy 1:30)

Ye shall not fear them: for the LORD your God he shall fight for you. (Deuteronomy 3:22)

For the LORD your God [is] he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you. (Deuteronomy 20:4)

And Joshua said unto them, Fear not, nor be dismayed, be strong and of good courage: for thus shall the LORD do to all your enemies against whom ye fight. And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening. (Joshua 10:25-26)


Actually, that entire chapter of Deuteronomy 20 seems to be something of a "fighting manual" for the people, telling them how to make war with their enemies according to the Lord's directions. I'll paste the full chapter in the following quote box.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Deuteronomy 20
20:1 When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, [and] a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God [is] with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
20:2 And it shall be, when ye are come nigh unto the battle, that the priest shall approach and speak unto the people,
20:3 And shall say unto them, Hear, O Israel, ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them;
20:4 For the LORD your God [is] he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.
20:5 And the officers shall speak unto the people, saying, What man [is there] that hath built a new house, and hath not dedicated it? let him go and return to his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man dedicate it.
20:6 And what man [is he] that hath planted a vineyard, and hath not [yet] eaten of it? let him [also] go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man eat of it.
20:7 And what man [is there] that hath betrothed a wife, and hath not taken her? let him go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man take her.
20:8 And the officers shall speak further unto the people, and they shall say, What man [is there that is] fearful and fainthearted? let him go and return unto his house, lest his brethren's heart faint as well as his heart.
20:9 And it shall be, when the officers have made an end of speaking unto the people, that they shall make captains of the armies to lead the people.
20:10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
20:11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, [that] all the people [that is] found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
20:12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, [even] all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities [which are] very far off from thee, which [are] not of the cities of these nations.
20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; [namely], the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
20:18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.
20:19 When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an ax against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field [is] man's [life]) to employ [them] in the siege:
20:20 Only the trees which thou knowest that they [be] not trees for meat, thou shalt destroy and cut them down; and thou shalt build bulwarks against the city that maketh war with thee, until it be subdued.


We also see in the first chapter of Judges that God asks each tribe to go up to fight the Canaanites in turn. Why would God command them thus if they weren't supposed to?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/10/13 04:19 PM

Shesh green - did you read your quotations??????

Exodus 14:14 The LORD will fight for you, and you have only to keep still.
Were the people suppose to fight? Nope!

Deuteronomy 1:30 The LORD your God, who goes before you, is the one who will fight for you, just as he did for you in Egypt before your very eyes,
Who was to fight? Not the people. Israel was not to fight.

Deuteronomy 3:22 Do not fear them, for it is the LORD your God who fights for you.
Were the people suppose to fight? Nope.

Deuteronomy 20:4 for it is the LORD your God who goes with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to give you victory."
Were the people suppose to fight? Nope.

Why did God take the long route to the promised land? So they would not need to fight! Exodus 13.

What was God's plan? Not to fight!!!
Deuteronomy 7:17-22
17 If you say to yourself, "These nations are more numerous than I; how can I dispossess them?"
18 do not be afraid of them. Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all Egypt,
19 the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs and wonders, the mighty hand and the outstretched arm by which the LORD your God brought you out. The LORD your God will do the same to all the peoples of whom you are afraid.
20 Moreover, the LORD your God will send the pestilence against them, until even the survivors and the fugitives are destroyed.
21 Have no dread of them, for the LORD your God, who is present with you, is a great and awesome God.
22 The LORD your God will clear away these nations before you little by little; you will not be able to make a quick end of them, otherwise the wild animals would become too numerous for you.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/10/13 04:31 PM

APL,

If God said He would fight for them once, does that mean that God would ALWAYS ask the people to let Him do the fighting for them and NEVER ask the people to fight?

The problem with such "black and white" thinking is that it is not correct.

Furthermore, I quoted BOTH sets of verses for a reason: to show that GOD fights.

I see that you accept that God does indeed fight. Why? If you believe it was wrong for the people to fight, how come you accept that God was under a different standard? (This seems to be what I have been trying to tell you all along, but you had not accepted before.)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/10/13 05:22 PM

You are still blind. HOW does God fight? Look at Jesus.

We are NEVER to fight. We are not to resist evil. Have you not read Matthew 5? That does not mean we can't have passive resistance. Look at Gandhi or Martin Luther King. Did they fight? Did they accomplish good things? Sadly, did it last? And why did it not last? Probably just like the comparison of the children of Israel going against Ai. The lost faith.

Do you have faith in God green?
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/10/13 05:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
kland,

The distinction between murder or killing has little to do with whether or not the death is deserved. It has more to do with something else that you will discover better for yourself by researching the matter from the Bible. However, whether or not the death is deserved has to do with whether or not it was "just." Justice sometimes involves the death penalty. When we understand that, then we understand how God might use the death penalty in strict justice.
It sounds like you are trying to say that the distinction has nothing to do with whether the death was deserved but whether it was justly deserved.

Not sure what that means.

But going with your one position that the distinction has little to do with whether or not the death is deserved, why did you say the following?

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
You attempted to compare what God did to Saul as to what David did to Uriah.

How does that fit or not fit with any distinctions between killing and murder you hope to make?

Which death was deserved? Which one represented justice, and which was merely malicious?

Do you not see a difference?
Would you be saying here the distinction of killing or murder is determined whether the one killed deserved death or not?

Quote:
I used the example of Uriah to illustrate the fact that the sword can be used by someone who is not responsible for the death. The responsibility for Uriah's death fell squarely upon David, and it was "murder." David himself, as you well know, was nowhere near the scene of Uriah's death. David didn't "kill" Uriah. But David "murdered" him.

Do you see the difference?
No. You compared what you said God did to what David did.

The responsibility for Uriah's death fell squarely upon David.
You say the responsibility for Saul's death fell squarely upon God.

David was nowhere near the scene of Uriah's death.
God was nowhere near the scene of Saul's death.

David didn't kill Uriah. But David "murdered" him.
Therefore, according to you, God "murdered" Saul.

How can you possibly see a difference?


Can you focus on your comparison of God with David?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/11/13 06:31 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
HOW does God fight?


I've already listed some of those ways, including floods, earthquakes, sword, fire, storms, etc. But since you are inquiring again, I'll list some more.

Remember what "faith" is? Faith is belief in action. Our actions (works) show whether or not we truly have faith. "Faith without works is dead." While we may sometimes wield the sword, God is still the One in charge, and to Whom the honor and glory is due when victory is obtained.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
As Aaron and Hur supported the hands of Moses, they showed the people their duty to sustain him in his arduous work while he should receive the word from God to speak to them. And the act of Moses also was significant, showing that God held their destiny in His hands; while they made Him their trust, He would fight for them and subdue their enemies; but when they should let go their hold upon Him, and trust in their own power, they would be even weaker than those who had not the knowledge of God, and their foes would prevail against them. {CC 95.5}


How was God "fighting" in the above circumstance? Through the swords of the Israelite soldiers, and only as long as Moses' hands were held aloft to show the faith of all of them in God their Helper.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
When Joshua went forth in the morning before the taking of Jericho, there appeared before him a warrior fully equipped for battle. And Joshua asked, "Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?" and he answered, "As Captain of the host of the Lord am I now come." If the eyes of Joshua had been opened as were the eyes of the servant of Elisha at Dothan, and he could have endured the sight, he would have seen the angels of the Lord encamped about the children of Israel; for the trained army of heaven had come to fight for the people of God, and the Captain of the Lord's host was there to command. When Jericho fell, no human hand touched the walls of the city, for the angels of the Lord overthrew the fortifications, and entered the fortress of the enemy. It was not Israel, but the Captain of the Lord's host that took Jericho. But Israel had their part to act to show their faith in the Captain of their salvation. {CC 117.3}


Again, God fought for them, via His own angels, throwing down the strongholds and fortifications of Jericho, "but Israel had their part to act to show their faith in the Captain of their salvation."

That last sentence is interesting. How is it that the Israelites are made to appear as if they were to be lost apart from God's help in this battle? Were they not on the offensive, overthrowing a people to take their land to themselves? And what part did Israel play at Jericho? Of course, we know of their marches around the city. But after the walls fell, what happened then?

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
All the inhabitants of the city [Jericho], with every living thing that it contained, "both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass," were put to the sword. Only faithful Rahab, with her household, was spared, in fulfillment of the promise of the spies. The city itself was burned.--PP 491 (1890).


Whose sword was it that God used? The sword of the Israelite.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And the three companies blew the trumpets, and brake the pitchers, and held the lamps in their left hands, and the trumpets in their right hands to blow [withal]: and they cried, The sword of the LORD, and of Gideon. And they stood every man in his place round about the camp: and all the host ran, and cried, and fled. And the three hundred blew the trumpets, and the LORD set every man's sword against his fellow, even throughout all the host: and the host fled to Bethshittah in Zererath, [and] to the border of Abelmeholah, unto Tabbath. (Judges 7:20-22)


Whose sword was used in Gideon's case? "The sword of the LORD." What sword was that? The sword of the enemy soldier, that is, the sword of the Amalekite and the sword of the Midianite.

According to the Bible, in David's case "the sword of the LORD" was a pestilence that in three days killed seventy thousand men of the Israelites--for David's sin in numbering the people.

How does God fight? Does it matter? He who created us knows how to keep us in check when necessary. He can use "natural" means or "supernatural" means. Either one is fully under His control, and while we might think the "natural" means somewhat more removed from Him, they are His agents just the same. Yet God is not limited to but one method of working. He has many. God is all-powerful, and God is creative and imaginative. God enjoys variety, even in His ways of working with us.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/11/13 06:38 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
We are NEVER to fight. We are not to resist evil.


I'm very sorry to see that you have adopted such a view. Never is a strong word. There are times, indeed, when we should not fight nor resist. But there are times when we absolutely MUST do so.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Say, I will do right, I will resist evil, and the Lord will help me. {AY 56.1}


"The Christian, while he is ever ready to give the soft answer that turneth away wrath, must possess the courage of a hero to resist evil." --EGW.

"Resist the devil and he will flee from you." --The Bible.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/11/13 06:40 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Can you focus on your comparison of God with David?


I would be happy to.

Let's start with the "beginning of David's ministry." His beginning was with Goliath. Let's look at just one important question from the story:

Why did David fight Goliath?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/11/13 03:25 PM

Originally Posted By: green
"Resist the devil and he will flee from you." --The Bible.
Green - you are black and white, I need to remember this. First, resistance does not necessarily mean violence. We are not to fight with violence. As the Bible says:
2 Corinthians 10:3-5
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

"we do not war after the flesh".
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/11/13 03:31 PM

APL,

The "black and white" part was that which said "we are not to resist evil." The only way one could reach such a conclusion would be to have ignored the times when we are to do exactly that--resist evil. This is why I brought the Bible to balance your thinking.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/11/13 04:03 PM

Originally Posted By: green
Let's start with the "beginning of David's ministry." His beginning was with Goliath. Let's look at just one important question from the story:

Why did David fight Goliath?
Start there and you miss the facts. Israel were a people in apostasy, the did not live by faith. The reason they had a king was because the rejected God. And though they rejected Him, God still worked with them. God works with sinners for their salvation. Did God give rules for polygamy? But did he approve of polygamy? Did God give instruction on how to fight? Yes. The people had rejected God and did not have faith in Him, So to lessen the damage God did give them instructions. Ultimately, did Israel gain the promised land by all their fighting? No.

There are glimpses of what God could have done for His people if they were faithful, such as 2 Chronicles 20, which describes a great victory, and what did jehoshaphat's army do to win it? Have faith and sing in rejoicing. (hm - vs 24 reads a lot like Isaiah 66:24, what might that tell us?)
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/11/13 05:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
Can you focus on your comparison of God with David?


I would be happy to.

Let's start with the "beginning of David's ministry." His beginning was with Goliath. Let's look at just one important question from the story:

Why did David fight Goliath?
At first I thought you weren't able to focus, but then I probably am the cause. I should have said, Can you focus on your comparison of God with David regarding the killing of Saul and killing of Uriah?

Now, you could say that you were mistaken and that there is no comparison of what David did to Uriah and what you tried to say God did to Saul.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/12/13 05:39 AM

kland and APL,

I have a reason for addressing Goliath. It is related to the case of David's later killing of Uriah. Please bear with me here, and we will get to that in due time. For now,

Why did David fight Goliath?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/12/13 05:45 AM

Originally Posted By: green
Why did David fight Goliath?

Question: Why was David not allowed to build the temple?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/12/13 05:49 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
Why did David fight Goliath?

Question: Why was David not allowed to build the temple?


David was a man of blood.

Now answer my question.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/12/13 04:04 PM

I have already answered your question above.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/12/13 04:14 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
I have already answered your question above.

You evaded it. You didn't answer it. You went on a side-track about other "facts" that seemed of greater interest to you. But if you will not answer it directly, perhaps this demonstrates your willingness to answer anything else on this topic.

That's ok. We all know where you stand. We also know where the Bible and Mrs. White stand.

Mrs. White said this:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Goliath trusted in his armor. He terrified the armies of Israel by his defiant, savage boastings, while he made a most imposing display of his armor, which was his strength. David, in his humility and zeal for God and his people, proposed to meet this boaster.


Now, since I have found the reason WHY David went to fight with Goliath, let me ask you another question.

When David killed Goliath, was it a sin or a victory for God?

If you believe that it was a sin for David to kill Goliath, do you have evidence to support the concept that this "sin" was a loss to God's cause? If not, would you say there are sins which help God? If so, why would you say this?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/12/13 06:12 PM

Originally Posted By: green
You evaded it. You didn't answer it. You went on a side-track about other "facts" that seemed of greater interest to you. But if you will not answer it directly, perhaps this demonstrates your willingness to answer anything else on this topic.
Actually, it is your unwillingness to understand that the Bible is telling us. My comment is relevant.
Originally Posted By: green
When David killed Goliath, was it a sin or a victory for God?
David murdered Goliath. David was an adulterer. Did God work with David and all of Israel? God meets people where they are. IF Israel had trusted God, which they did not, and my comments are relevant, there would have been no need to any fighting on the part of the people. Did you read 2 Chronicles 20? Again, I think not.
Originally Posted By: green
If you believe that it was a sin for David to kill Goliath, do you have evidence to support the concept that this "sin" was a loss to God's cause? If not, would you say there are sins which help God? If so, why would you say this?
Was the history of Israel a victory for God????? Do you know the history of Israel? Was it a victory for God? Was Solomon a victory for God? When the kingdom was divided, was this a victory for God? Where they ANY good kings of the Northern kingdom? Not one. Was there victory for God in the kingdom of Judah? It was also taken captive. And after it was restored, it was ultimately destroyed in AD70. Was this a victory for God? There is only one clear cut victory of God and that Was Jesus Christ. And the WHOLE of the OT was speaking of God victory in Jesus Christ. Christ was the promise to Abraham. Only in reading the victory of God in Christ does the OT have any relevance. The OT is mostly a story of failure of the people to represent God. Will history be repeated in our time? Only in reading the OT in light of the cross of Christ does God look good, a God who would work with sinful people, meeting them where they were, trying to win.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/13/13 06:33 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
You evaded it. You didn't answer it. You went on a side-track about other "facts" that seemed of greater interest to you. But if you will not answer it directly, perhaps this demonstrates your willingness to answer anything else on this topic.
Actually, it is your unwillingness to understand that the Bible is telling us. My comment is relevant.
Originally Posted By: green
When David killed Goliath, was it a sin or a victory for God?
David murdered Goliath. David was an adulterer. Did God work with David and all of Israel? God meets people where they are. IF Israel had trusted God, which they did not, and my comments are relevant, there would have been no need to any fighting on the part of the people. Did you read 2 Chronicles 20? Again, I think not.
Originally Posted By: green
If you believe that it was a sin for David to kill Goliath, do you have evidence to support the concept that this "sin" was a loss to God's cause? If not, would you say there are sins which help God? If so, why would you say this?
Was the history of Israel a victory for God????? Do you know the history of Israel? Was it a victory for God? Was Solomon a victory for God? When the kingdom was divided, was this a victory for God? Where they ANY good kings of the Northern kingdom? Not one. Was there victory for God in the kingdom of Judah? It was also taken captive. And after it was restored, it was ultimately destroyed in AD70. Was this a victory for God? There is only one clear cut victory of God and that Was Jesus Christ. And the WHOLE of the OT was speaking of God victory in Jesus Christ. Christ was the promise to Abraham. Only in reading the victory of God in Christ does the OT have any relevance. The OT is mostly a story of failure of the people to represent God. Will history be repeated in our time? Only in reading the OT in light of the cross of Christ does God look good, a God who would work with sinful people, meeting them where they were, trying to win.

I'm amazed at your perspective. I'm not sure quite how to respond. I didn't realize how far your thinking had gone. I never expected you to consider David's killing of Goliath as "murder." Wow.

Let me ask this, then: When the Israelites put the inhabitants of Jericho to the sword, did they also commit murder?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: APL

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/13/13 08:05 AM

Have you read 2 Chronicles 20?

Where the Israelites armed with weapons when they left Egypt? Where did they get their weapons?

Add to this:
Quote:
So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}


The Israelites should not have had any arms when they went against Jericho, if they truly had faith in God. As surely as they clung to the sword, they came under the inexorable law that declares that all who take the sword will as surely perish by the sword. Their history after Jericho gives the clearest vindication to this principle.

So, the Israelites at Jericho came to a point of decision, a crossroads. They could have let God finish the work of conquest for them, or they could use the brutal sword. Tragically, they made the wrong choice&#8213;the one that was the fruit of unbelief. Palestine was not conquered in harmony with God’s principles, compelling force, but according to the Israelites’. Because they still retained His presence and leadership in some parts of their lives, a measure of His power remained among them so that they were often victorious. Apart from that, all He could do was to give them instructions for conducting the war mercifully. There was to be no torturing of their victims, and they were to obliterate specific nations that were given completely over to their own gods, being completely closed to God and the principles of His kingdom. God's plan? Sadly no. god would have delivered the land up to them by different methods had they left the sword alone, Deuteronomy 7:20.

God’s perfect way, which Jesus lived and taught, calls upon the manifestation of that love which never retaliates, always turns the other cheek, goes the second mile, loves all enemies, and does good to those who do evil. Weapons of force have no use under these principles. This requires a real and abiding faith in God to successfully operate. The children of Israel lacked that faith and discarded these ideas as impractical and dangerous. They were, in short, foolishness to them. They could not see how survival was possible under these conditions.

Israel maintained some connection with God and was prepared to obey Him at least in some things, they also insisted on carrying out their own ways, resulting in bloodshed and brutality, which cannot be considered as the perfect display of the righteousness of God.

God’s way does not use force to put down rebellion, and it has no retaliation, no exacting of retributions, no violence, no use of the sword, and, therefore, no killing. Jesus identified this alone as being God’s pattern of behavior by advising that those who did likewise would be like His Father who is in heaven (Matthew 5:48).

Humanity’s way, if left entirely to themselves, is such that they will love their friends but will hit their enemies as hard as they can. The objective is actually to hit them much harder than they hit you so as to convince them permanently that it would be suicidal to launch any further assaults against you. This system of violence for violence continues in fearsome escalation as each seeks to guarantee their own security by the rule of fear.

When God was not able to hold them safely in His way, then He worked to save them from their way. This is why the compromise situation exists. What God is really saying by this is, “Very well, you have made your decision to take the sword and thereby depart from My ways. I cannot change your decision. You made it and in freedom it stands. But I can save you from the worst effects of that choice if you will accept and respect the advice I now give you. Do not be wanton and revengeful killers. Exact only an equal payment for what has been taken from you. Let there be no more than one eye for one eye, and one tooth for one tooth. Meanwhile, I will ever seek to win you back to the way of faith and obedience, back to the pathway where there is no killing or revenge but only the manifestation of My character of love.”

Note that continuing in the middle of permissive will is not the way of salvation. It is only a temporary measure to prevent escalation of violence unto extinction, until such a body of faithful believers may develop in the earth as will understand His perfect way and return to it. These permissive laws are not good. They are not the way of life. They are only a measure of control on wickedness.

The history of that unfortunate nation of Israel, rightly understood, places God in His true light. Whereas there has been the tendency in the past to see Him as being in total control of that nation so that what they did was the expression of His character and will, it becomes very evident that this was not so. Rather, they had stubbornly refused to allow Him His full and rightful place in their community. They had substituted their way in place of His way so that what they did in the slaughter of the wicked was anything but the expression of His character and methods.

I'm not ashamed of the GOSPEL.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/13/13 09:24 AM

The following passage, in its entirety, tells the true story of Jericho and its destruction.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
To reduce Jericho was seen by Joshua to be the first step in the conquest of Canaan. But first of all he sought an assurance of divine guidance, and it was granted him. Withdrawing from the encampment to meditate and to pray that the God of Israel would go before His people, he beheld an armed warrior, of lofty stature and commanding presence, "with his sword drawn in his hand." To Joshua's challenge, "Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?" the answer was given, "As Captain of the host of the Lord am I now come." The same command given to Moses in Horeb, "Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy," revealed the true character of the mysterious stranger. It was Christ, the Exalted One, who stood before the leader of Israel. Awe-stricken, Joshua fell upon his face and worshiped, and heard the assurance, "I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valor," and he received instruction for the capture of the city. {PP 487.3}

In obedience to the divine command Joshua marshaled the armies of Israel. No assault was to be made. They were simply to make the circuit of the city, bearing the ark of God and blowing upon trumpets. First came the warriors, a body of chosen men, not now to conquer by their own skill and prowess, but by obedience to the directions given them from God. Seven priests with trumpets followed. Then the ark of God, surrounded by a halo of divine glory, was borne by priests clad in the dress denoting their sacred office. The army of Israel followed, each tribe under its standard. Such was the procession that compassed the doomed city. No sound was heard but the tread of that mighty host and the solemn peal of the trumpets, echoing among the hills and resounding through the streets of Jericho. The circuit completed, the army returned in silence to their tents, and the ark was restored to its place in the tabernacle. {PP 488.1}

With wonder and alarm the watchmen of the city marked every move, and reported to those in authority. They knew not the meaning of all this display; but when they beheld that mighty host marching around their city once each day, with the sacred ark and the attendant priests, the mystery of the scene struck terror to the hearts of priest and people. Again they would inspect their strong defenses, feeling certain they could successfully resist the most powerful attack. Many ridiculed the thought that any harm could come to them through these singular demonstrations. Others were awed as they beheld the procession that each day wound about the city. They remembered that the Red Sea had once parted before this people, and that a passage had just been opened for them through the river Jordan. They knew not what further wonders God might work for them. {PP 488.2}

For six days the host of Israel made the circuit of the city. The seventh day came, and with the first dawn of light, Joshua marshaled the armies of the Lord. Now they were directed to march seven times around Jericho, and at a mighty peal from the trumpets to shout with a loud voice, for God had given them the city. {PP 488.3}

The vast army marched solemnly around the devoted walls. All was silent, save the measured tread of many feet, and the occasional sound of the trumpet, breaking the stillness of the early morning. The massive walls of solid stone seemed to defy the siege of men. The watchers on the walls looked on with rising fear, as, the first circuit ended, there followed a second, then a third, a fourth, a fifth, a sixth. What could be the object of these mysterious movements? What mighty event was impending? They had not long to wait. As the seventh circuit was completed, the long procession paused, The trumpets, which for an interval had been silent, now broke forth in a blast that shook the very earth. The walls of solid stone, with their massive towers and battlements, tottered and heaved from their foundations, and with a crash fell in ruin to the earth. The inhabitants of Jericho were paralyzed with terror, and the hosts of Israel marched in and took possession of the city. {PP 491.1}

The Israelites had not gained the victory by their own power; the conquest had been wholly the Lord's; and as the first fruits of the land, the city, with all that it contained, was to be devoted as a sacrifice to God. It was to be impressed upon Israel that in the conquest of Canaan they were not to fight for themselves, but simply as instruments to execute the will of God; not to seek for riches or self-exaltation, but the glory of Jehovah their King. Before the capture the command had been given, "The city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein." "Keep yourselves from the accursed thing, lest ye make yourselves accursed . . . and make the camp of Israel a curse, and trouble it." {PP 491.2}

All the inhabitants of the city, with every living thing that it contained, "both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass," were put to the sword. Only faithful Rahab, with her household, was spared, in fulfillment of the promise of the spies. The city itself was burned; its palaces and temples, its magnificent dwellings with all their luxurious appointments, the rich draperies and the costly garments, were given to the flames. That which could not be destroyed by fire, "the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron," was to be devoted to the service of the tabernacle. The very site of the city was accursed; Jericho was never to be rebuilt as a stronghold; judgments were threatened upon anyone who should presume to restore the walls that divine power had cast down. The solemn declaration was made in the presence of all Israel, "Cursed be the man before the Lord, that riseth up and buildeth this city Jericho: he shall lay the foundation thereof in his first-born, and in his youngest son shall he set up the gates of it." {PP 491.3}

The utter destruction of the people of Jericho was but a fulfillment of the commands previously given through Moses concerning the inhabitants of Canaan: "Thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them." Deuteronomy 7:2. "Of the cities of these people, . . . thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth." Deuteronomy 20:16. To many these commands seem to be contrary to the spirit of love and mercy enjoined in other portions of the Bible, but they were in truth the dictates of infinite wisdom and goodness. God was about to establish Israel in Canaan, to develop among them a nation and government that should be a manifestation of His kingdom upon the earth. They were not only to be inheritors of the true religion, but to disseminate its principles throughout the world. The Canaanites had abandoned themselves to the foulest and most debasing heathenism, and it was necessary that the land should be cleared of what would so surely prevent the fulfillment of God's gracious purposes. {PP 492.1}

The inhabitants of Canaan had been granted ample opportunity for repentance. Forty years before, the opening of the Red Sea and the judgments upon Egypt had testified to the supreme power of the God of Israel. And now the overthrow of the kings of Midian, of Gilead and Bashan, had further shown that Jehovah was above all gods. The holiness of His character and His abhorrence of impurity had been evinced in the judgments visited upon Israel for their participation in the abominable rites of Baalpeor. All these events were known to the inhabitants of Jericho, and there were many who shared Rahab's conviction, though they refused to obey it, that Jehovah, the God of Israel, "is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath." Like the men before the Flood, the Canaanites lived only to blaspheme Heaven and defile the earth. And both love and justice demanded the prompt execution of these rebels against God and foes to man. {PP 492.2}

  1. Christ had a sword, and it was drawn.
  2. Christ Himself told Joshua that He had given Jericho into Israel's hand.
  3. The Israelites "were not to fight for themselves, but simply as instruments to execute the will of God." This means that the Israelites, in bearing the sword against God's enemies, were doing His will.
  4. "All the inhabitants of the city, with every living thing that it contained, 'man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass,' were put to the sword."
  5. This fulfilled the command they had been given regarding the Canaanites: "Thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them."
  6. "To many these commands seem to be contrary to the spirit of love and mercy enjoined in other portions of the Bible, but they were in truth the dictates of infinite wisdom and goodness." --EGW.

Obviously, APL is among friends. Mrs. White says there are "many" who view these things as APL does. But does she say they are correct?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: kland

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/16/13 05:09 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I'm amazed at your perspective. I'm not sure quite how to respond. I didn't realize how far your thinking had gone. I never expected you to consider David's killing of Goliath as "murder." Wow.
Well Green, that just demonstrates how vague and evasive your distinction between murder and killing is. You know, the definition which you think is so complicated and complex that you are unable to define it so that even an 8th grader can understand?


Quote:
Let me ask this, then: When the Israelites put the inhabitants of Jericho to the sword, did they also commit murder?
And where and when do you suppose they got those swords from?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: What is the Wrath of God? - 09/16/13 05:24 PM

kland, like APL, is also among friends, according to Mrs. White.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
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