What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
Posted By: Mountain Man
What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/19/05 07:08 PM
This following exchange between Rosangela and Tom appears on another thread. I am reposting it here for further discussion:
quote:
Rosangela wrote:
You seem to believe that the born-again Christian has a carnal and a spiritual nature, and a carnal and a spiritual mind coexisting side by side. I don’t agree with this. In my opinion at the new birth the carnal mind ceases to exist and the carnal nature begins to be transformed. Many are of the opinion that the Christian has two natures, the carnal and the spiritual, and that there is a constant conflict between the two. I don’t believe this. I believe the Christian has just one nature, the carnal nature, and that this nature is day by day transformed in the similitude of the divine nature.
Tom wrote:
Rosangela, how do you understand being a partaker of the divine nature?
Rosangels wrote:
Tom, the divine nature is the nature of God, which is love. To be a partaker of the divine nature is to be a partaker of this love. God implants His love in us, and this love gradually changes the whole life into the divine similitude.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/19/05 07:29 PM
Rosangela, I agree with you that our carnal mind (i.e., our "old man") is crucified the moment we are born again. In other words, I believe we are born again without the carnal mind of the old man. And, since I believe the carnal mind of the old man is the sum total of our former sinful traits of character, I also believe we are born again without our former defective traits of character.
Therefore, I do not believe a born again believer has two minds (the mind of the old man and the mind of the new man). Paul wrote:
Romans
12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
2 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Ephesians
4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Titus
3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.
3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
In these passage Paul says it is our mind (i.e., character) that is renewed or transformed - not our sinful nature. Character and sinful nature are two totally separate aspects of our human make up. Jesus will not replace our sinful nature until He returns. In the meantime, we are stuck with it. By the grace of God we may control it, but we cannot conquer or eliminate it or transform it into a sinless nature.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/20/05 04:07 PM
quote:
Therefore, I do not believe a born again believer has two minds (the mind of the old man and the mind of the new man).
Mike,
I had said this because in the excerpt of your manuscript you say:
quote:
We are born again with both the sinless mind of the new man and the sinful mind of fallen flesh.
Does what you are saying now mean that you have changed your mind since you wrote the manuscript, or do you have a different thing in mind?
quote:
In these passage Paul says it is our mind (i.e., character) that is renewed or transformed - not our sinful nature. Character and sinful nature are two totally separate aspects of our human make up. Jesus will not replace our sinful nature until He returns. In the meantime, we are stuck with it. By the grace of God we may control it, but we cannot conquer or eliminate it or transform it into a sinless nature.
Mike,
Mind, heart, nature and character are all synonyms, and Ellen White so considers them.
“Through the grace of Christ an amazing transformation is taking place in the corrupt hearts of men. The work wrought in the characters of sinners through the grace of Christ, is a greater work than to perform a miracle upon the bodies of men. The old, carnal nature dies, and a new creature appears after the likeness of Christ.” {RH, December 19, 1893 par. 11}
“Thus the carnal nature is transformed, renewed in holiness after the image of Christ's righteousness and true holiness.” {PH002 25.2}
“Christ says: Open the door of your heart; give Me entrance, and I will make you a child of God. I will transform your weak, sinful nature into the divine image, giving it beauty and perfection.”{TMK 106.3}
“That which was to the carnal mind a desolate wilderness, to the spiritual mind becomes a land of living streams. That which to the unrenewed heart appeared a barren waste, to the converted soul becomes the garden of God, covered with fragrant buds and blooming flowers.” {CE 79.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/20/05 05:19 PM
There are similarities, but the words mean different things. I agree about "mind" and "heart" being synonyms. "Character" seems to me to be a bit different, in that it is less transient than "mind" and "heart" may be. That is, "mind" and "heart" are less specific in their usage. "Nature" can mean many different things. It may mean "character", but it may also mean "flesh", which is quite a different thing. Christ partook of our flesh, so in that sense it can be said He to our nature ("He took upon His own sinless nature our sinful nature") but Christ did not take our mind, heart or character.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/21/05 06:25 AM
Rosangela, I agree with Tom’s observations. Sister White, at times, used the words “nature” and “character” interchangeably. At other times she used them in contrast to one another. Ralph Larson wrote a compilation called, “The Word Made Flesh” (or something like that), and in it he quotes all the places where Sister White used the word “nature” in the different ways I mentioned above.
If it were possible to completely rid our nature of its sinful inclinations and propensities, then it wouldn’t be necessary for Jesus to replace it with a sinless one when He returns. But, as it applies to our character, Jesus will not change it when He returns. Our character must be changed now, in this lifetime.
quote:
Does what you are saying now mean that you have changed your mind since you wrote the manuscript, or do you have a different thing in mind?
No. Remember, I believe the mind of the old man (i.e., the sum total of the sinful traits of character we developed before we experienced the miracle of rebirth) and the mind of sinful nature (i.e., all the sinful traits [not character] we inherited from our ancestors) are two separate aspects of our human make up.
I believe we are born again without the mind of the old man, but the mind and voice of our sinful nature remains to tempt and harass us until the day Jesus returns and replaces it with a sinless one.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/21/05 01:02 AM
Where do habits we formed before being converted fit in? Also none of the "minds" seem to do any thinking, which seems a bit odd.
Posted By: Charity
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/21/05 03:16 AM
In your first post Mike you say we cannot conquor our sinful nature or eliminate it. It depends what you mean by conquor. I know you believe in Ellen White. She and scripture agree that we can and must conquor our sinful nature and bring every thought into captivity to the will of Christ.
Am I off topic? Sorry if I am. I haven't read this very carefully I admit.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/21/05 07:32 AM
I didn't see anywhere where Mike said we cannot conquer our sinful flesh, especially I didn't see anything in the first post (unless you mean the first post on some other thread).
Mike wrote this in the post just before yours
quote:
but the mind and voice of our sinful nature remains to tempt and harass us until the day Jesus returns and replaces it with a sinless one.
This seems pretty clear to me. The flesh remains to tempt us, so that aspect of our sinful nature will never go away. But just because we are tempted does not mean we have to yield.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/21/05 03:55 PM
Self--the old disobedient nature--must be crucified, and Christ must take up His abode in the heart. Thus the human agent is born again, with a new nature. {ST, July 26, 1905 par. 6}
But every one who is Christ's, who has tasted of the powers of the world to come, has crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts. {BEcho, January 15, 1892 par. 7}
Self must be crucified. There must be a thorough transformation of character. {ST, June 26, 1884 par. 8}
Such should let self die; let the carnal mind be crucified. {BTS, August 1, 1912 par. 6}
Let the Holy Spirit come in and expel this unholy passion, which cannot survive in heaven. Let it die; let it be crucified. Open the heart to the attributes of Christ, who was holy, harmless, undefiled. . . . {OHC 234.3}
We have great victories to gain, and a heaven to lose if we do not gain them. The carnal heart must be crucified; for its tendency is to moral corruption, and the end thereof is death. {AG 312.5}
When the grace of God takes possession of the heart, it is seen that the inherited and cultivated tendencies to wrong must be crucified. A new life, under new control, must begin in the soul.{MYP 68.3}
The conclusion is that self, the old nature, the flesh, the carnal mind, the carnal heart, the old character with its unholy passions and inherited and cultivated tendencies to wrong – all are crucified at conversion. So they are all synonyms.
Besides these uses, of course the words "nature" and "flesh" can refer to our physical nature (the body) in a general sense, that is, Adam before sin had a human nature and was flesh.
About this crucifixion that must take place, of course it is not a once-for-all event but a process which will only be finished at Christ's coming, because of the sinful suggestions of Satan, against which we must be constantly on guard.
The Bible says Christ will change our body when He comes, and I couldn't find any quote saying that He will change our nature. Is there such a quote?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/21/05 04:38 PM
The argument above is not a valid argument. The problem is the methdology. Ellen White used a style, which was common in the 19th century, of repeating what she said using other words or expressions. This style can be found in almost any of her writings. If you just pick something at random, the chances are very likely you will see this, especially if she is explaining some concept. The fact that she repeats herself with other expressions should not be used as an argument that the words used are interchangeable or have exactly the same meaning.
For example, consider a couple of quote using the word "self".
quote:
Self--the old disobedient nature--must be crucified, and Christ must take up His abode in the heart. Thus the human agent is born again, with a new nature. {ST, July 26, 1905 par. 6}
Such should let self die; let the carnal mind be crucified. {BTS, August 1, 1912 par. 6}
Using the suggested methodology would lead us to the conclusion that "self" = "the old disobedient nature" or "the carnal mind". This would be an erroneous conclusion, because unfallen Adan had a self, as has been pointed out. However, unfallen Adam did not have an old disobedient nature nor a carnal mind, which serves to show the limitations of this methodology.
Regarding our nature being changed, it depends on whether the "character" meaning for nature is being used, or the "flesh" meaning. For example, the statement "Christ took upon His own sinless nature our sinful nature" is dealing with His flesh. That nature (i.e. He was transformed, so no longer partook of our sinful nature) changed upon His resurrection, as will those who are raised in the first resurrection, which is to say the same thing as saying that the flesh of all believers will change. However our characters will not be changed by the resurrection, so if "nature" is being used with that meaning in mind, such a statement could not be made.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/21/05 05:29 PM
quote:
The fact that she repeats herself with other expressions should not be used as an argument that the words used are interchangeable or have exactly the same meaning.
She repeated these concepts several times and in a variety of ways - I just put one quote of each statement for the sake of brevity.
quote:
Using the suggested methodology would lead us to the conclusion that "self" = "the old disobedient nature" or "the carnal mind". This would be an erroneous conclusion, because unfallen Adan had a self, as has been pointed out.
This is not an erroneous conclusion. She is obviously referring to sinful self - selfishness - the only self sinful beings possess.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/22/05 06:03 AM
Mark, yes, I have used the word "conquer", but I mean it in the sense of eliminate. By the grace of God we can, and must, control our sinful flesh nature, including our thoughts, but we can never completely silence the voice of our sinful nature.
As we develop new habits of character certain former habits will gradually lose their power and appeal. In fact, in some cases, our former old man character habits completely stop being a weakness or source of temptation. Thank you, Jesus.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/22/05 06:13 AM
quote:
Where do habits we formed before being converted fit in? Also none of the "minds" seem to do any thinking, which seems a bit odd.
Our old man character, our former habits of sin, are crucified when we are born again. During our lifetime of sinning, however, the corresponding traits were strengthened in our sinful flesh nature. The tug and pull we feel to return to our former lifestyle of sinning is the voice of sinful nature tempting us to resume where we left off the day we were born again.
The "mind" of our sinful flesh nature acts on instinct. The "thinking" it does is instinctive. The "mind" of the new man acts on faith. By thinking "on these things" we develop more and more the sinless traits of character God implanted within us the moment we were born again.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/22/05 06:38 AM
Rosangela, thank you for posting all those awesome quotes. Well done, indeed. I believe a key to understanding how Sister White intended for us to understand her use of the word “crucify” is seen in the following passage:
AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}
To crucify the affections and lusts that reign and remain within us we must resist the temptations generated by our fallen flesh nature. But we will never totally rid ourselves of them in this lifetime. The same is not true, however, of crucifying our old man character habits of sin.
When we crucify our old man, our character is purged and we begin with a clean slate. Like Jesus, we must grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. We must develop the sinless traits God implanted within us “more and more unto the perfect day.” (Prov. 4:18) It doesn’t take us lifetime to accumulate the fruits of the Spirit, the sinless character traits of God. Instead, it takes us a lifetime to mature in them, which includes eternal life.
COL 330
All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}
DA 676
When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/22/05 06:40 AM
Old Tom:Using the suggested methodology would lead us to the conclusion that "self" = "the old disobedient nature" or "the carnal mind". This would be an erroneous conclusion, because unfallen Adan had a self, as has been pointed out.
Rosangela:This is not an erroneous conclusion. She is obviously referring to sinful self - selfishness - the only self sinful beings possess.
Tom:"Self" has a broader meaning than "the carnal mind". It can be applied to unfallen Adam. "Carnal mind" cannot. This shows the words "self" and "carnal mind" are not interchangeable, and demonstrates a pitfall of the methodology you are using.
As "self" has a broader meaning than "carnal mind", so does "nature" have a broader meaning than either "flesh" or "character". They are not interchangeable. One needs to look at the context to see how the word "nature" should be understood.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/22/05 04:31 AM
Tom,
I don't make any statements nor draw any conclusions on the basis of a superficial exam of a subject. I've examined hundreds of statements of EGW, and made dozens of word searches at the EGW website. Now, of course I am aware that words may have more than one meaning, and of course I'm taking this into consideration. I'm also taking the context into consideration, for not doing so would be irresponsible.
The words we are discussing are mentioned together in several instances, denoting they are closely related.
Sinful self (selfishness) and the old nature, or the carnal mind, can be considered, in a broad sense, synonyms. But, if you wish to be more specific, it could be said that sinful self is the essence of the carnal mind, and the carnal mind is the essence of the old nature, or sinful self is the essence of the old nature.
"Flesh" and "nature" can have other nuances of meaning, but in this context they are synonyms.
About "character" and "nature", it can be easily seen that in this context they are synonyms:
When man sinned, all heaven was filled with sorrow. . . . Out of harmony with the nature of God, unyielding to the claims of His law, naught but destruction was before the human race. {TMK 18.3}
When man sinned, all heaven was filled with sorrow; for through yielding to temptation, man became the enemy of God, a partaker of the satanic nature. The image of God in which he had been created was marred and distorted. The character of man was out of harmony with the character of God; for through sin man became carnal, and the carnal heart is enmity against God, is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. {ST, December 15, 1914 par. 6}
By accepting the satanic attribute of selfishness, man got out of harmony with the nature of God, or out of harmony with the character of God, which is love. He became carnal, with a carnal heart, a carnal mind or carnal nature. Which is the part you don't agree with?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/22/05 06:01 AM
What I disagree with is from a previous post, which has the following:
quote:
Mike:Character and sinful nature are two totally separate aspects of our human make up. Jesus will not replace our sinful nature until He returns. In the meantime, we are stuck with it. By the grace of God we may control it, but we cannot conquer or eliminate it or transform it into a sinless nature.
Rosangela:
Mike, Mind, heart, nature and character are all synonyms, and Ellen White so considers them.
Tom:I think what Mike wrote was correct. Your comment seems to be a rebut of his position. If it disagrees with what he wrote, then I think it's incorrect (since I think what Mike wrote is correct).
I don't know why you mentioned you don't draw conclusions based on a superficial examination of a subject. What's the relevance of this comment? I wasn't suggesting you were being superficial, was I? (Phil. 3:4,5)
I spent countless hours at Andrews in the basement (the EGW part) and have written several hundred pages on this subject. I don't see the relevance of this either.
When you write that nature and character are synonomous in this context, I don't know what "in this context" is referring to. Certainly nature and character can at times be synonymns, but that's saying something much different than the blanket statement that "mind, heart, nature and character are all synonymns, and Ellen White so considers them." Ellen White was very careful in how she uses these words, and she used them differently depending on the circumstances.
Ellen White did not exist in a vacuum. She didn't have her own lexicon on words. All her SDA contemporaries were post-lapsairans (believed Christ took the nature of Adam after the fall) as well as she. Her view on the nature of Christ was not unique, and her use of words was similar to that of her contemporaries.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/22/05 05:35 PM
Tom,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the impression I got was that you thought that the quotes I submitted were just isolated quotes taken out of context and put together to prove a viewpoint, as you said repeatedly that my methodology was faulty. I made that comment just to assure you that a careful research had been done, and that I had carefully considered the meaning of the words in the context they appeared. Because the word “day” can mean 12 hours (the light part of day) and it can mean 24 hours, if I pick all the 12-hour references in the writings of someone you cannot claim that my methodology was faulty because I did not consider the 24-hour references. I considered just the 12-hour references because my scope was exactly that.
Your problem seems to be with the word “nature”. “Nature” could refer to man’s physical nature or to his moral nature.
What I see in the EGW writings about man’s moral nature is the following:
“When man sinned, all heaven was filled with sorrow; for through yielding to temptation, man became the enemy of God, a partaker of the satanic nature. The image of God in which he had been created was marred and distorted. The character of man was out of harmony with the character of God; for through sin man became carnal, and the carnal heart is enmity against God, is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. ... Out of harmony with the nature of God, unyielding to the claims of His law, naught but destruction was before the human race. Since the divine law is as changeless as the character of God, there could be no hope for man unless some way could be devised whereby his transgression might be pardoned, his nature renewed, and his spirit restored to reflect the image of God.” {ST, December 15, 1914 par. 7}
“After the transgression of man his nature became evil. Then was peace between Satan and fallen man. ... There is no native enmity between fallen angels and fallen men. Both are evil, and that through apostasy, and evil, wherever it exists, will always league against good. Fallen angels and fallen men join in companionship.” {GH, July 1, 1898 par. 4}
So we see here that when man sinned, he became a partaker of the satanic nature – his moral nature became evil, became carnal. Man’s character became evil, selfish, and the solution for this is the implanting of the divine nature (love) in man, causing a renewal of his moral nature.
“By nature we are alienated from God. ... God desires to heal us, to set us free. But since this requires an entire transformation, a renewing of our whole nature, we must yield ourselves wholly to Him.” {AG 313.3}
“The heart, the seat of the affections, must be transformed; the moral nature must be renewed by grace.” {ST, May 6, 1886 par. 8}
“Thus the carnal nature is transformed, renewed in holiness after the image of Christ's righteousness and true holiness.” {PH002 25.2}
“When your soul is the temple for the indwelling Spirit of the Saviour, the gross elements of your nature will be consumed, and the whole being will become a living purpose.” {ST, November 30, 1888 par. 7}
So, what I'm seeing in the writings of EGW is that man’s nature is transformed and this transformation is gradual. Until Christ comes man will have a conflict with sinful or non-sinful wishes of self. Besides, he can do nothing good of himself; anything good he may do is prompted by the Holy Spirit who dwells in him.
Now, many say that since our nature is evil it is not transformed in this life, but something will happen to it (transformed? eliminated?) at Christ's coming. I don't know of any EGW quote to that effect, but I'm open to accept new concepts if they can be properly substantiated.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/22/05 05:59 PM
R:So, what I'm seeing in the writings of EGW is that man’s nature is transformed and this transformation is gradual. Until Christ comes man will have a conflict with sinful or non-sinful wishes of self. Besides, he can do nothing good of himself; anything good he may do is prompted by the Holy Spirit who dwells in him.
Tom:I agree.
R:Now, many say that since our nature is evil it is not transformed in this life, but something will happen to it (transformed? eliminated?) at Christ's coming. I don't know of any EGW quote to that effect, but I'm open to accept new concepts if they can be properly substantiated.
Tom:It's what you're referring to as the physical nature which is not transformed in this life. The flesh (also called "sinful nature") remains to tempt us. It (the flesh, also called "sinful nature") is not converted.
It seems to me if we just left out the word "nature" altogether that might be helpful. It seems not to clarify anything and just leads to confusion. I think we can get by without it.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/23/05 06:31 AM
Regarding the disagreement and methodology comments I made:
quote:
Mike:Character and sinful nature are two totally separate aspects of our human make up. Jesus will not replace our sinful nature until He returns. In the meantime, we are stuck with it. By the grace of God we may control it, but we cannot conquer or eliminate it or transform it into a sinless nature.
Rosangela:
Mike, Mind, heart, nature and character are all synonyms, and Ellen White so considers them.
Tom:I disagree with your conclusion, unless you wish your statement to be restricted in meaning to something like "Mind, heart, nature and character are sometimes all synonymns." Or perhaps you meant, "In the specific quotes I cited, mind, heart, nature and character are all synonyms, and Ellen White so consider them." This possibility seems rather likely to me.
I wasn't meaning to be critical of you personally. I only meant to point out that I disagreed with the above sentence, and that it appeared to me that your methodology had led you to what appeared to me to be a faulty conclusion. If this were the case, then your methodology would be faulty. However, it could be a case of misunderstanding where you intended your statement to be taken in a more restricted way than what appears at first glance.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/23/05 06:54 AM
Rosangela, you didn't comment on the AH quote posted above. Sister White says our sinful flesh can tempt but that it cannot sin. In light of our discussion on the contextual differences between the words "nature" (inherited traits) and "character" (cultivated traits) what do you make of the insight in the AH quote?
As I see it, sinful flesh nature is what we inherit at birth and is replaced with a sinless one when Jesus returns. Character, on the other hand, is the byproduct, as it were, of sinful flesh nature. Sinful character is sinful flesh "manifested". (Gal 5:19) It is what we ourselves cultivate before we are born again and, if we disconnect from Jesus, what we cultivate while disconnected from Jesus.
Since character is the only thing we take with us to heaven then it stands to reason that our sinful flesh nature will be replaced when Jesus returns. Here are some quotes that imply this insight:
1 Corinthians
15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
AA 560, 561
Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. {AA 560.3}
The idea that it takes a lifetime to cease sinning, or to swap sinful traits of character for righteous ones, assumes God cannot, or chooses not to, set us free now. But the fact is we are set free the moment we are born again. It does not take a lifetime of sinning less and less to be free from sinning. We do not gradually overcome sinning by sinning less and less often.
Instead, the thing that takes a lifetime is to mature in the rightetous character traits God implanted in us the moment we were born again. In fact, not even eternal life is long enough to become as mature as Jesus is. Growth in grace and character development is a lifelong process whereby we imitate the example of Jesus by becoming more and more mature in the fruits of the Spirit - not less and less sinful like Satan.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/22/05 08:46 PM
Mike, I agree with much of what you say, but you don't comment on unconscious sins/sins of ignorance. Before Christ come can, these sins must be revealed and overcome.
Our biggest sins are ones caused by misunderstanding God's character. The final message to be given to the world will be one of God's true character.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/23/05 05:46 PM
Tom, it appears, based on other threads, that we do not see eye to eye on what constitutes a sin of ignorance. I believe it is only intellectual things like the sabbath, dress and diet reform, and biblical doctrines like the state of the dead and the 2300 day prophecy.
In other words, sins of ignorance involve matters of the mind, things that require book learning, as opposed to things we know naturally from birth, moral matters of the soul like lying, cheating, stealing, murder, etc. I see a huge distinction between mental and moral issues, especially as it relates to salvation.
But here we're discussing what happens to our sinful flesh nature after we're born again. On this point it would appear that we are in agreement. Rosangela, on the other hand, isn't. She seems convinced (though I'm not certain of what she is saying) that our sinful flesh nature is gradually converted in this lifetime, that it is transformed into a sinless nature, that it won't be replaced when Jesus returns. Or, did I get it wrong? What does she believe?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/23/05 07:35 PM
I'm hesitant to speak for Rosangela, so I'll let her respond for herself.
I agree with your assessment that you and I appear to be in agreement regarding the sinful nature being our flesh, and that Christ took that nature, and overcame in spite of having taken it, demonstrating that complete victory is possible for us.
We appear to be in some disagreement as to the extent of Christ's temptations, based on another thread. I believe Christ was tempted in all points as we are, because not only did take our sinful nature, but He also took our sin. It is that combination which allowed Him, I believe, to be tempted not only as one who is born again, but also as one who is not.
Regarding things we know by birth, what makes you think we know things like lying etc. by birth? We are taught these things and learn them the same way we learn what you call the book learning things. There's no difference. When we learn about the Sabbath, it becomes a moral issue, passing from being a sin of ignorance. Similarly one may learn that living with someone is not the same thing as being married, and what was a sin of ignorance becomes a moral issue. Similarly for lying, idols, or any other sin.
So it appears to me you are making an artificial distinction where none exists.
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/24/05 05:33 AM
Will this help any?
S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 6---- Ephesians-----PG- 1118
(John 14:15). Reaching the Condition of Sinlessness. –Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts (MS 122, 1901).
Manuscript Releases Volume Eight--- The Law------PG- 99
Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts, including the one relating to the observance of the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week, the day that He blessed and sanctified, "because that in it He had rested from all His work" (Gen. 2:3).
The diference between Jesus and us is....We were both born with inherited tendencies to evil and chose to cultivate these tendencies.....
with complete dependance on His Father, Jesus did not. He chose not to sin.
With complete dependance/strength on Our Heavenly Father, we need not sin either.
All sin comes in three catagories:
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
The "tempted in all points" means the above, and covers all bases for me, you and Jesus. He could not be our Saviour unless He experienced every temptation we have and gained the victory.
Conversion happens in the mind ---
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Jesus overcame in sinful flesh [chose not to sin]to show us we may also overcome [choose not to sin] in our sinful flesh.
My 2 cents
God Bless
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/24/05 05:36 AM
Mike,
I’m still studying this subject and haven’t yet arrived at any conclusion, so I’m just saying what seems to make more sense.
The text you quoted points out that 1) it is not the body that sins (how could it?), but the mind. So, 2) the words “flesh” and “fleshly lusts”, in the context Peter and Paul use them, do not mean the body itself but the lower nature (the bodily propensities and passions which lead to errors in thought and action when injuriously gratified).
"Abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul," is the language of the apostle Peter. Many regard this text as a warning against licentiousness only; but it has a broader meaning. It forbids every injurious gratification of appetite or passion. ... Wrong habits of eating and drinking lead to errors in thought and action. Indulgence of appetite strengthens the animal propensities, giving them the ascendency over the mental and spiritual powers.” {HR, November 1, 1882 par. 1}
When any lust takes possession of the mind in any way or to any degree, and there is a yielding to fleshly desires, we lose the image of Christ in spirit and character. {RH, January 21, 1890 par. 5}
Men's natural appetites have been perverted by indulgence. Through unholy gratification they have become "fleshly lusts, which war against the soul." Unless the Christian watches unto prayer, ... his inclinations, abused and misguided, will be the means of his backsliding from God.--Manuscript 47, 1896. {Te 19.1}
All habits of indulgence that weaken the physical powers, that becloud the mind, or that benumb the spiritual perceptions, are "fleshly lusts, which war against the soul." 1 Peter 2:11. {COL 53.1}
It seems to me that the word “flesh” comprises just the bodily appetites and passions, therefore it seems not to include all kinds of sins. What do you and Tom think about this? The body will be changed at Christ’s coming, but will this in any way affect the process of sinning? If all sins were in some way related to the body, how is it that angels sinned?
As to our nature being renewed or transformed in this life, it’s not I who say this, but Ellen White (some quotes provided in my last post before this one). What do you think she means by that?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/24/05 07:55 AM
Here's what I think:
Our nature being transformed refers to our minds. I don't see any difference between her saying our natures our transformed and Scripture saying our minds are renewed.
Sin resides in the mind. The mind governs the will. The flesh is a means by which one can be tempted. It also contains genetic predispositions to sin.
Christ took our flesh, so had the same genetic predispositions to sin that we have. He was also tempted in the same means by which we are tempted. However, Christ never yielded to temptation.
Our characters are not changed at Christ's coming, but our flesh is. If humanity can perfectly obey God with fallen flesh, it can certainly do so in sinless flesh, so the question of our safeness to saved is answered.
Since "nature" can mean either character or flesh, depending on the context, one could say that at Christ's coming our character is not changed, but our sinful nature is. Or one could say, our nature (i.e. character) is not changed, but our flesh is. Or, to be really confusing, one could say our nature is not changed, but our nature is. Yikes! What a mess.
This is why when one considers the word "nature" one must be very careful to ascertain the context. Does it mean flesh, or character? I don't think this is a difficult question inconsidering Ellen White's writings; she's usually very clear as to her meaning. Also her views, and her verbage, weren't any different than her contemporaries. This wasn't a controversial point within Seventh-day Adventism during her lifetime.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/24/05 05:58 PM
quote:
It seems to me that the word “flesh” comprises just the bodily appetites and passions, therefore it seems not to include all kinds of sins. What do you and Tom think about this?
I believe all sins are related to either appetite (bodily needs) or passions (emotional needs).
quote:
The body will be changed at Christ’s coming, but will this in any way affect the process of sinning?
No. It was possible for Adam and Eve to sin. What will change is how we are tempted to sin. Our flesh will no longer tempt us to meet our innocent and legitimate needs in a sinful way.
quote:
If all sins were in some way related to the body, how is it that angels sinned?
Angels are flesh and blood, too. Sin is related to the mind and the body.
quote:
As to our nature being renewed or transformed in this life, it’s not I who say this, but Ellen White (some quotes provided in my last post before this one). What do you think she means by that?
I agree with Tom. Sister White used the word "nature" in different ways. The context determines the meaning.
Posted By: Kevin H
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/25/05 06:16 AM
What happens to the sinful nature when we are born again is basically what happens to the Alocholic when they attend AA, or the smoker who is giving up smoking.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/24/05 10:30 PM
Amen. Still tempted, but victorious (so long as they follow the right steps).
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/25/05 12:35 AM
Yes, when Ellen White speaks of the transformation of nature, she is obviously speaking of moral transformation. Man is transformed in his character and in his mind. The point, however, is that sin resides in the mind, as Tom said – not in the body. Inherited and cultivated sinful propensities - selfishness, covetousness, pride, envy, etc. reside in the mind. Therefore, when a sinful propensity is cut away from the character, it is cut away from the life – there is no way it could remain in the body.
And Mike, angels are spirits, not flesh and blood.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/25/05 02:53 AM
Rosangela, I seriously doubt that's what Tom intended. He and I both agree that sin can reside in both mind (character) and body (sinful flesh nature). Remember what Sister White wrote about it in AH:
quote:
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God.
The flesh can communicate sinful suggstions and feelings, but it cannot commit a sin. Sin resides in the body.
Paul wrote, "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." (Rom 8:3) The expression "sin in the flesh" is referring to the same "sin" Paul spoke about in Romans 7. "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Verse 17.
Since this same "sin" resided in Jesus' sinful flesh nature, it is clear to me that Paul isn't talking about sinning, but rather he is talking about the unholy suggstions and feelings that originate in the flesh and end up in the mind in the form of conscious temptations.
Regarding angels. Remember God is also a Spirit, and we were made in His image and likeness. This implies that "spirit" doesn't mean non-flesh and blood.
EW 54
I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." {EW 54.2}
Jesus has the form of a man - flesh and blood. So does the Father, who is a Spirit.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/25/05 08:37 AM
quote:
Inherited and cultivated sinful propensities - selfishness, covetousness, pride, envy, etc. reside in the mind.
Inherited sinful propensities reside in the flesh, not the mind; they are inherited. That which is inherited is passed on genetically. Actually "inherited sinful propensities" is not the best choice of words. "Inherited sinful tendencies" would be better. "Inherited" implies something genetic, while "propensities" suggests something cultivated, so the phrase fights against itself. "Cultivated sinful propensities" works well though.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/25/05 08:39 AM
Mike, I'm interested in the idea that angels are flesh and blood. Could you elaborate?
I liked the comment about God being a Spirit, and we being made in His image.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/25/05 03:21 PM
Guys, please, you simply are not being reasonable.
1) Tom, it is evident that propensities and tendencies are synonyms, and there is no way whatsoever you can prove that propensities refer to what is cultivated and not to what is inherited:
“Children are born with the animal propensities largely developed, the parents' own stamp of character having been given to them. . . . Children born to these parents will almost invariably take naturally to the disgusting habits of secret vice. . . . The sins of the parents will be visited upon their children, because the parents have given them the stamp of their own lustful propensities.” {CG 442.1}
“Because of sin, his [Adam’s] posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience”. {13MR 18.1}
2) Mike, the lower passions have their seat in the body, but where? In the liver? In the stomach? In the reproductive organs? No, in the brain, of course, in the same way as the higher passions. In a different region of the brain, however, but in the brain, in the mind.
“The action of the blood upon the lower or animal organs of the brain, causes unnatural activity, tends to recklessness in morals, and the mind and heart is in danger of being corrupted. As the animal organs are excited and strengthened, the moral are enfeebled. The moral and intellectual powers of the mind become servants to the animal.” {RH, October 17, 1871 par. 9}
“This excitement is communicated, through the nerves, to the brain, and the result is that the animal passions are aroused, and control the moral powers. Reason is thus made a servant to the lower qualities of the mind.”--T., V. IV, p. 140. {HL 194.7}
That’s exactly why our mind must be transformed.
3) About angels.
1 Corinthians 15:50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Ephesians 6:12 For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/25/05 09:02 PM
Here is the rest of what Paul wrote about flesh and blood:
1 Corinthians
15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.
15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.
15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
From this we can easily conclude that the flesh of angels is not exactly the same kind of flesh we possess now. We can also conclude that the flesh we will have in the new earth is different than what we have now. But it’s all flesh – even God. Besides the fact God is like us in image and likeness, and the EW quote above, I’m not aware of other places that address the question.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/25/05 09:07 PM
The main point I was making is this:
quote:
Inherited sinful propensities reside in the flesh, not the mind; they are inherited. That which is inherited is passed on genetically.
The other comment was tangential. To clarify my thought, "propensity" is negative in connotation. One doesn't have a "propensity" to something good. At least, I'm not aware of EGW ever using the term in a positive way. "Tendency" can either be negative or positive. So "tendency" can be a synonym of "propensity" but not the other way (except in a restricted sense).
I wrote that propensity "suggests" something which is cultivated. That's my impression, anyway. I did a search on "inherited propensities" and found one item, which was the one you quoted. A similar search on "inherited tendencies" returned 78 items, so there seems little doubt to me that "inherited tendencies" is the preferred phrase.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/25/05 09:19 PM
Rosangela, I have not read where the brain (i.e., gray matter) is synonymous with "mind". The brain, as an organ, is part of the body. In particular it is part of the central nervous system, which is the means by which sinful nature communicates unholy suggestions and feelings.
Our five sense of touch, taste, smell, sight, and sound are aspects of human beings that are perverted by sinful nature. It twists our innocent and legitimate needs (i.e., appetitets and passions) and then communicates them, via the central nervous system, as unholy suggestions and feelings. It's a whole body process, involving every organ.
The "mind", on the other hand, is the seat of the intangible aspects of human beings. It is the conscious thoughts and feelings, neither of which are physical organs. It is where character resides and is developed. As such, the mind is not the same as the body. Sin resides in the body in a physical way. Whereas, sin does not reside in the mind in a physical way.
So, there are three things: 1) Body, 2) Mind, and 3) Sinful Nature.
The body transmits our innocent needs along the central nervous system as electral impulses. Sinful nature converts them into conscious unholy thoughts (i.e., suggestions) and feelings. And the mind is where character is developed as we react and respond to the voice of sinful nature and the wooing of the Holy Spirit.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/25/05 09:53 PM
Mike, this last post was well done. By that I mean well written. Nice job! Food for thought.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/26/05 05:50 PM
Tom,
quote:
To clarify my thought, "propensity" is negative in connotation. One doesn't have a "propensity" to something good. At least, I'm not aware of EGW ever using the term in a positive way. "Tendency" can either be negative or positive. So "tendency" can be a synonym of "propensity" but not the other way (except in a restricted sense).
I didn’t find positive references to either of them, which is not surprising, since man is basically inclined to wrong.
quote:
I wrote that propensity "suggests" something which is cultivated. That's my impression, anyway. I did a search on "inherited propensities" and found one item, which was the one you quoted. A similar search on "inherited tendencies" returned 78 items, so there seems little doubt to me that "inherited tendencies" is the preferred phrase.
I did a search on "cultivated propensities" and found one item, and did a search on “cultivated tendencies” and found 190 items, so it is clear that “cultivated tendencies” is the preferred phrase, but it is also clear that “propensity” does not suggest something that is cultivated in opposition to something that is inherited.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/26/05 05:59 PM
Mike,
quote:
Our five sense of touch, taste, smell, sight, and sound are aspects of human beings that are perverted by sinful nature. It twists our innocent and legitimate needs (i.e., appetitets and passions) and then communicates them, via the central nervous system, as unholy suggestions and feelings. It's a whole body process, involving every organ.
“Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God” (Gal. 5:19-21).
This text makes clear that the word “flesh” refers mainly to the mind. Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, are no twisting of legitimate needs communicated as unholy suggestions and feelings to the mind. It is the opposite which is true – these things originate in the mind and then find expression through the body.
I would define appetites as needs (physical) and passions as desires (physical or otherwise). All of them must be under the control of reason. Needs/appetites are legitimate (need for food and drink) and desires/passions can be legitimate or sinful. Legitimate desires would be correct sex, correct ambition, correct anger, etc; sinful desires would be depraved appetite, corrupt sexual desires, the incorrect desire for material possessions (love of money), the incorrect desire for power (self-exaltation, pride, envy, jealousy), incorrect anger, etc.
We are naturally born with many sinful passions/desires (which constitute sinful traits of character) and the lower nature (inclination and impulse) seeks to satisfy them. However, the higher nature (reason and principle) must deny them until they are finally eliminated from the character.
"Instead of being governed by enlightened reason, refined taste, or sensitive consciences, the lower qualities of the mind held the guiding reins. Virtue and principle had no controlling power." {RH, March 11, 1873 par. 7}
"Satan's constant temptations are designed to weaken man's government over his own heart, to undermine his power of self-control. He leads man to break the bands which connect him in holy, happy union with his Maker.Then, when he is disconnected from God, passion obtains control over reason, and impulse over principle, and he becomes sinful in thought and action, his judgment is perverted, his reason seems to be enfeebled, and he needs to be restored to himself by being restored to God by a correct view of himself in the light of God's word."--Lt 24, 1890. {1MCP 228}
"A noble character is the result of self-discipline, of the subjection of the lower to the higher nature". {Ed 57.4}
"The lower nature, with all its inclinations, must be subdued and crucified, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. It is absolutely necessary for Christians to keep the body under, bringing it into subjection, and uprooting every affection and impulse which is contrary to the will of God. The food which we eat will help or hinder us in doing this." {14MR 297.2}
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/27/05 06:54 AM
"Propensity" has a negative connotation. "Tendency" is neutral. Normally when we think of inherited traits, these are thought of in a neutral way, not a negative way, whereas cultivated traits (bad traits) are thought of as negative. Hence my suggestion that "propensity" is a better fit than "tendency".
As I mentioned, this is tangential to the main point, which is "Inherited sinful propensities reside in the flesh, not the mind; they are inherited. That which is inherited is passed on genetically." This was in response to this statement:
quote:
Inherited and cultivated sinful propensities - selfishness, covetousness, pride, envy, etc. reside in the mind. Therefore, when a sinful propensity is cut away from the character, it is cut away from the life – there is no way it could remain in the body.
Inherited and cultivated sinful propensities, or tendencies, are two completely different things. Inherited sinful tendencies are not passed from mind to mind but passed genetically.
We've been talking about "propensity" and "tendency" to where I've lost track of what your train of thought was.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/27/05 12:35 PM
quote:
Inherited sinful tendencies are not passed from mind to mind but passed genetically.
Ok, Tom, but they are passed genetically to the mind.
“The parents give the stamp of character to their children. Therefore children that are born of these parents [men who have depraved passions and women that are passively submissive to them] inherit from them qualities of mind which are of a low, base order.” {RH, September 26, 1899 par. 4}
We inherit qualities of mind, and these can’t be anywhere except in the mind.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/28/05 06:02 AM
They are passed genetically to the brain.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/28/05 06:14 AM
quote:
This text makes clear that the word “flesh” refers mainly to the mind.
Please note Paul’s use of the word “manifest” – “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these ….” At this point he isn’t talking about the tempting thoughts and feelings sinful nature produces; rather, he is speaking specifically about people acting them out in mind and/or body.
quote:
We are naturally born with many sinful passions/desires (which constitute sinful traits of character) and the lower nature (inclination and impulse) seeks to satisfy them. However, the higher nature (reason and principle) must deny them until they are finally eliminated from the character.
I believe the sinful traits of character that we inherit from our parents do not constitute character. Cultivated character traits and inherited traits of character are not one and the same thing. I believe this distinction accounts for our differences of opinion.
As we act out the unholy suggestions produced by our inherited fallen flesh nature we cultivate sinful habits of character. We are held accountable for the inherited sinful traits of character we convert or transform into cultivated character traits by acting them out in thought, word, or deed.
quote:
We inherit qualities of mind, and these can’t be anywhere except in the mind.
And I would say we become aware of our inherited propensities with the mind. The unholy thoughts and feelings that enter our mind originate in the flesh. Our fallen nature generates and communicates to our conscious mind unholy thoughts and feelings in the form of temptations. With the implanted mind of the new man we can, by abiding in Christ, by partaking of the divine nature, recognize and resist them unto the honor and glory of God our Father.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/27/05 07:13 PM
I see things very similarly to what Mike is presenting (maybe identically). Christ had the same flesh we had, as was tempted in the same way by the same temptations, but He never yielded to temptation. Physically His mind was no different than ours; if you could to a biopsy on His brain as an infant or look at His DNA you wouldn't see anything different. However, His mind was unique. He had the mind of Christ, a mind determined to do the will of God, regardless of the cost to Himself.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/28/05 07:02 PM
Gentlemen,
The body is servant of the mind, not the other way around. The mind reacts first, then it sends a message to the body.
You get nervous, then you start to sweat. You get angry, then your face gets red. And so on.
Does any man’s body know the difference between an unknown 18-year-old girl and his18-year-old sister? No, his mind does, and his body reacts (or doesn’t react) accordingly.
The main component in sin is not the body, but the mind. Your body just does what your mind tells it to do. (“The flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God”).
So what I see Ellen White saying is that in any given situation, or temptation, two aspects of our mind are involved – the higher nature (reason and principle) and the lower nature (inclination, impulse, desire – the part of the mind related to pleasure). Some of the pleasures we seek to satisfy are legitimate, some are perverted, because we are inclined to wrong. Thus, we find pleasure in venting our anger, in being admired by others, in exerting power or control over others, in seeking to satisfy our needs no matter what may happen to others – and so on (but these impulses are in the mind, not in the body). So, we have good impulses and evil impulses, and even the good impulses may become evil if they are gratified in a wrong way or moment. This lower nature existed in Adam, but he had only good impulses and they were under the perfect control of reason. In us, sinful beings, this lower nature is what the Bible calls “flesh”, the “flesh” that must be crucified, because it comprises many evil impulses.
“The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words ‘flesh’ or ‘fleshly’ or ‘carnal lusts’ embrace the lower, corrupt nature... We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? ... The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme” {AH 127.2}
What is the solution for our problem? Asking God to remove from us the pleasure we find in sin. Once a GC vice-president, James Harris, visited Brazil and, in a sermon, he told something I’ve never forgotten. He said that when he was converted, he wanted to get baptized, but he couldn’t quit smoking. And he prayed and prayed, “Lord, help me quit smoking”, but nothing happened. Then one day he realized that he was praying the wrong prayer. And he started to pray, “Lord, remove from me the pleasure I find in smoking”, and then he was able to quit the habit and get baptized. Why? Because he no longer found any pleasure in smoking.
We can’t of ourselves avoid loving sin, but God can remove the love of sin from our hearts by implanting in us His love – the divine nature. Then the evil impulse will die, will cease to exist, although we must be connected to God moment by moment, for Satan is always seeking to implant evil impulses in us again.
“In the heart renewed by divine grace, love is the ruling principle of action. It modifies the character, governs the impulses, controls the passions, and ennobles the affections.” {AA 551.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/28/05 09:51 PM
Rosangela, it appears that we have each stated our positions clearly. I believe sinful suggestions originate in our fallen flesh nature and you believe they originate in our sinful mind.
You also seem to believe that all desires for sin must be removed before we can experience peace and freedom, which implies that true victory isn't possible until we can no longer be tempted, that being tempted is evidence we haven't been set free.
Or, did I misunderstand your position?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/28/05 09:55 PM
That's a very nice, post, Rosangela. Very well written.
quote:
The body is servant of the mind, not the other way around. The mind reacts first, then it sends a message to the body.
In the example of the sisters, the body reacted first (the eye) and sent the message to the brain (hey look! an 18 yr old female!) And the brain interpreted the message (that's my sister). So it seems to me that the body reacts first by gathering information through the 5 senses, and sends it to the brain for processing.
I agree with what you wrote regarding higher/lower natures for the most part, except for the conclusions at the end. My understanding of what you wrote is that you feel that our temptations will lessen as we grow close to Christ (please correct me if I'm wrong) whereas I believe they will increase.
I believe they will increase for two reasons. One is that God will not allow us to be tempted above what we can bear. As we grow closer to Him, there is more than we can bear.
Secondly, as we grow closer to Christ there are temptations which we perceive that we didn't even notice before which deal with issues which are subtle and more difficult to overcome. For example, being healed from the Laodicean condition.
According to the perspective presented at the bottom of your post, it seems to me the logical extrapolation would be that Christ was not tempted at all, because there was nothing but love in His heart. There would have been no need for Him to crucify self. This is what seems to me to be the logical conclusion of the principle that as we grow closer to Christ are temptations grow ever weaker. Given that Christ was perfectly close to Christ, His temptations would have been 0 (like a limit approaching 0, if you're familiar with Calculus).
OTOH, as I view things, Christ's temptations grew ever more difficult. He had temptations throughtout His life which were preparing Him for His ministry. With every victory He became stronger, ready to face a more difficult test. The temptation in the wilderness was the most difficult test that had been seen until that time. The most difficult test of all was Gethsemanee, and finally the cross, where our fate and the fate of heaven trembled in the balance. Christ did have a self to be crucified, which He did throughout His life, an incomprehensibly difficult task.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/28/05 09:58 PM
quote:
Rosangela, it appears that we have each stated our positions clearly. I believe sinful suggestions originate in our fallen flesh nature and you believe they originate in our sinful mind.
I believe sinful suggestions can orginiate in either our fallen flesh or our sinful mind. Do you disagree with this, Mike?
quote:
You also seem to believe that all desires for sin must be removed before we can experience peace and freedom, which implies that true victory isn't possible until we can no longer be tempted, that being tempted is evidence we haven't been set free.
I got this impression as well from what Rosangela wrote.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/29/05 12:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Secondly, as we grow closer to Christ there are temptations which we perceive that we didn't even notice before which deal with issues which are subtle and more difficult to overcome. For example, being healed from the Laodicean condition.
Are you suggesting that laodicea is an experience that ever christian of every time has had to overcome?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/29/05 01:36 AM
The descriptions of the church can be seen in different ways, one way being as spiritual descriptions. Viewed as such, I think your observation applies. Similarly the descriptions given by the other churches may also apply to our time to individuals, or even in a general way to the church. For example, we as an individual or church may be guilty of having left our first love.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/29/05 05:50 PM
quote:
You also seem to believe that all desires for sin must be removed before we can experience peace and freedom, which implies that true victory isn't possible until we can no longer be tempted, that being tempted is evidence we haven't been set free.
There are many correct impulses/desires of our physical, as well as of our intellectual/emotional nature that were implanted by God. These will never be removed and Satan will always bring temptations to us based on them.
To understand what happens, we must examine what happened with Adam. Did Adam acquire new impulses/desires? As selfishness (self-love) is a perversion of love, all the other evil impulses (pride, covetousness, love of money, etc.) are nothing but the perversion of originally good impulses Adam possessed. So, at conversion, the evil impulses we inherited/cultivated begin to be removed from our lives by being changed/transformed into what they were originally designed to be:
“A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong.” {Mar 237.2}
“Converted to the truth, imbued with the Holy Spirit, they are under the transforming influence of divine grace. The life of self-indulgence they once lived is changed to a life of service.” {RH, May 2, 1912 par. 7}
“The Spirit conforms the renewed soul to the model, Jesus Christ. Through its influence, enmity against God is changed into faith and love, and pride into humility.” {OHC 152.5}
Selfishness changes the good impulses into bad ones:
“You [too] have a work to do, Brother P-----[the husband], to get rid of your supreme selfishness. You are growing too close and love money so well that every penny looks large to you and the whole generosity of your character is changed to love of money, a desire to accumulate and lay up.” {UL 93.4}
And love changes the bad impulses into good ones. The fruits of the Spirit change the works of the flesh.
What I said that happens is that, as our heart is gradually transformed and sanctified by faith, Satan’s temptations will have to concentrate less and less in the evil impulses (since now they are changed) and more and more in the correct impulses, that he will seek to pervert again or otherwise use for his purposes.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/29/05 10:14 PM
My understanding of the victory of Christ is that He did that which we could not do. The law was weak through the flesh, so God sent His Son in our flesh to make it possible for His law to be obeyed in human flesh.
So we have: aaaaaaaaaaa (flesh which cannot obey)
and: bbbbbbbbbbb (flesh which can obey)
"b" only became possible because of Christ. Only to the extent that Christ actually had "a" could He provide the victory to have "b".
In other words, if we are tempted in some way that Christ was not tempted, then we could not have victory on that point, because that point would not have been "fixed".
For example, if Christ was tempted only on the basis of "correct impulses" (easy temptations) and we are tempted on the basis of "correct temptations" (easy temptations) and "incorrect impulses" (the hard ones), then did Christ fix the tempted by incorrect impulses part? I understand that I can have victory over the incorrect impulses temptations (the hard ones) because Christ Himself overcame the very temptations I had (the hard ones).
Otherwise I would be doing something Christ couldn't, or didn't, do. Where would I have obtained the ability to do something beyond what Christ did?
Hoping this makes some sense,
Tom
[ September 29, 2005, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: Tom Ewall ]
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/30/05 02:33 PM
Tom,
Who said that being tempted on the basis of correct impulses are easy temptations? There is no difference in the strength of the temptation, but just in the perspective of the temptation. Let’s take, for instance, faith. There are people who are prone to doubt, so Satan will arrange his temptations in such a way as to confirm the person in his doubts. If the person has faith, he will arrange his temptations so as to make the person fall from his faith.
Take, for instance, the aspect of faith in the first temptation of Jesus:
“Though he appears as an angel of light, these first words betray his character. ‘If Thou be the Son of God.’ Here is the insinuation of distrust. Should Jesus do what Satan suggests, it would be an acceptance of the doubt. ... The words rankle with bitterness in his mind. In the tones of his voice is an expression of utter incredulity. Would God treat His own Son thus? Would He leave Him in the desert with wild beasts, without food, without companions, without comfort? He insinuates that God never meant His Son to be in such a state as this. ‘If Thou be the Son of God,’ show Thy power by relieving Thyself of this pressing hunger. Command that this stone be made bread. The words from heaven, ‘This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased’ (Matt. 3:17), were still sounding in the ears of Satan. But he was determined to make Christ disbelieve this testimony. ... It was Satan's purpose to cause Him to doubt that word. If Christ's confidence in God could be shaken, Satan knew that the victory in the whole controversy would be his. He could overcome Jesus. He hoped that under the force of despondency and extreme hunger, Christ would lose faith in His Father, and work a miracle in His own behalf. Had He done this, the plan of salvation would have been broken” (DA 118, 119).
Is this an easy temptation? Only in the sense that it is easy to fall into it.
Take another aspect of the first temptation, for instance. His temptation for Christ was, “If Thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread." He wouldn’t of course tempt us to do that. His temptation for us would probably be, “Curse God, and die!” Which temptation is easier to fall into?
The devil is extremely clever, Tom. There are no temptations easy to overcome. There are only temptations easy to fall into.
As I mentioned earlier, there is no difference in temptation, for fallen or unfallen beings:
"The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find it so difficult to withstand. They were urged upon Him in as much greater degree as His character is superior to ours. With the terrible weight of the sins of the world upon Him, Christ withstood the test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon that love of display which leads to presumption. These were the temptations that overcame Adam and Eve, and that so readily overcome us. {DA 116, 117}
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 09/30/05 11:05 PM
R:Who said that being tempted on the basis of correct impulses are easy temptations?
Tom:I did, based on personal experience. I have found the temptations to do something I like to do are more difficult to meet than temptations to do things I dislike. I have also noticed that things I like to do are not necessarily things that issue from "correct impulses" (I'm being charitable to myself here -- I don't know if they ever come from "correct impulses").
R:There is no difference in the strength of the temptation, but just in the perspective of the temptation.
Let’s take, for instance, faith. There are people who are prone to doubt, so Satan will arrange his temptations in such a way as to confirm the person in his doubts. If the person has faith, he will arrange his temptations so as to make the person fall from his faith.
Take, for instance, the aspect of faith in the first temptation of Jesus:
“Though he appears as an angel of light, these first words betray his character. ‘If Thou be the Son of God.’ Here is the insinuation of distrust. Should Jesus do what Satan suggests, it would be an acceptance of the doubt. ... The words rankle with bitterness in his mind. In the tones of his voice is an expression of utter incredulity. Would God treat His own Son thus? Would He leave Him in the desert with wild beasts, without food, without companions, without comfort? He insinuates that God never meant His Son to be in such a state as this. ‘If Thou be the Son of God,’ show Thy power by relieving Thyself of this pressing hunger. Command that this stone be made bread. The words from heaven, ‘This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased’ (Matt. 3:17), were still sounding in the ears of Satan. But he was determined to make Christ disbelieve this testimony. ... It was Satan's purpose to cause Him to doubt that word. If Christ's confidence in God could be shaken, Satan knew that the victory in the whole controversy would be his. He could overcome Jesus. He hoped that under the force of despondency and extreme hunger, Christ would lose faith in His Father, and work a miracle in His own behalf. Had He done this, the plan of salvation would have been broken” (DA 118, 119).
Is this an easy temptation? Only in the sense that it is easy to fall into it.
Tom:The temptation was difficult because Christ took our nature and took our sin, which is my point. If Christ had not taken our nature or our sin, there would have been no temptation at all. The temptation was difficult for Him because of our baggage which He assumed. The same baggage which makes our temptations difficult made His difficult.
R:Take another aspect of the first temptation, for instance. His temptation for Christ was, “If Thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread." He wouldn’t of course tempt us to do that. His temptation for us would probably be, “Curse God, and die!” Which temptation is easier to fall into?
Tom:Just an aside, Satan also tempted Christ with "Curse God, and die!" especially on the cross. There's no temptation which we have that Christ didn't meet. If He didn't meet it and overcome it, we would have no hope in victory. We can do nothing He hasn't done.
R:The devil is extremely clever, Tom. There are no temptations easy to overcome. There are only temptations easy to fall into.
Tom:To use your definition, some temptations are easier to fall into than others. In particular, the easiest temptations for us to fall into are those we have already fallen into so many times. There has to be a mechanism by which we can avoid falling into these temptations. I believe our victory over these easy-to-fall-into temptations was provided by Jesus Christ. I would emphasize that these temptations had to be just as easy for Christ to fall into as us, or if not He was not tempted in all points as we are.
R:As I mentioned earlier, there is no difference in temptation, for fallen or unfallen beings:
"The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find it so difficult to withstand. They were urged upon Him in as much greater degree as His character is superior to ours. With the terrible weight of the sins of the world upon Him, Christ withstood the test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon that love of display which leads to presumption. These were the temptations that overcame Adam and Eve, and that so readily overcome us. {DA 116, 117}
Tom:There's a *huge* difference. The difference is that unfallen beings have never sinned and do not have sinful natures. The reason the temptations were difficult for Christ was because He took our nature and our sin upon Him.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/01/05 07:14 AM
quote:
I believe sinful suggestions can orginiate in either our fallen flesh or our sinful mind. Do you disagree with this, Mike?
Yes, I do. Our new man mind, however, does not generate and communicate unholy thoughts and feelings. Only our old man mind can tempt us. But when we’re born again our old man mind is crucified and buried. So, to be tempted by it again we must first disconnect from Jesus and thereby resurrect our old man mind.
Rosangela, the following quote says it is our mind, not our fleshly nature, that is changed when we're born again.
COL 98, 99
The leaven hidden in the flour works invisibly to bring the whole mass under its leavening process; so the leaven of truth works secretly, silently, steadily, to transform the soul. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. A new standard of character is set up--the life of Christ. The mind is changed; the faculties are roused to action in new lines. Man is not endowed with new faculties, but the faculties he has are sanctified. The conscience is awakened. We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God. {COL 98.3}
“The natural inclinations are softened and subdued.” – not eliminated or converted.
“New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted.” – not gradually accumulated.
“The mind is changed; the faculties are roused to action in new lines.” – we receive the implanted mind of the new man.
“Man is not endowed with new faculties, but the faculties he has are sanctified.” – that is, the faculties of the mind, not fallen flesh nature.
“We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God.” – that is, new traits of character we did not possess before we were born again.
The following quotes all make it clear that it is the mind that is changed when we’re born again – not our fallen flesh nature. We receive the attributes of God and His righteous traits of character. Then we develop them, beginning now and continuing throughout eternity.
1MCP 67
The mind is changed; the faculties are set to work. Man is not supplied with new faculties, but the faculties he has are sanctified. The conscience hitherto dead is aroused. But man cannot make this change himself. It can be made only by the Holy Spirit. {1MCP 67.2}
2MCP 692
The Spirit of God does not create new faculties in the converted man but works a decided change in the employment of those faculties. When mind and heart and soul are changed, man is not given a new conscience, but his will is submitted to a conscience renewed, a conscience whose dormant sensibilities are aroused by the working of the Holy Spirit.--Lt 44, 1899. (HC 104.) {2MCP 692.3}
OHC 104
The Spirit of God does not create new faculties in the converted man, but works a decided change in the employment of those faculties. When mind and heart and soul are changed, man is not given a new conscience, but his will is submitted to a conscience renewed, a conscience whose dormant sensibilities are aroused by the working of the Holy Spirit. {OHC 104.2}
TDG 186
The heart must be cleansed from all impurity, man must be fitted with traits of character that will enable him to do service for God in any line. The process is invisible by which the leaven changes the mass of meal into which it has been introduced, but it works until the meal is converted into bread. So must the Spirit of God work a radical change. New faculties are not supplied, but a thorough change is made in the employment of those faculties. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives are implanted. But while every faculty is regenerated, man does not lose his identity. {TDG 186.1}
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/01/05 02:36 PM
I think you guys are not understanding what I’m saying. Instead of trying to reply point by point to what you said, I’m going to make a last attempt to explain what I mean.
Natural inclinations/impulses are the inclinations that every human being possesses because God implanted them in us. These are softened and controlled at conversion. Of course they can’t be eliminated.
For instance, no human being wants to suffer, no human being wants to die, no human being wants to be humiliated, scorned, reproached, and all human beings will do everything possible to avoid this. All human beings can be tempted on the point of physical appetites – food, water, sex. The faith of every human being can be taxed, for we don’t see God and on many occasions it does seem He has abandoned us; the patience of every human being can be taxed (because anger is an impulse God implanted in us). All human beings can be tempted to be selfishly ambitious (because ambition is an impulse God implanted in us). So, all these impulses cannot and will not be removed; they can only be controlled by a will which must be itself under the control of God. They are part of our human condition.
“The human will of Christ would not have led him to the wilderness of temptation, to fast, and to be tempted of the devil. It would not have led him to endure humiliation, scorn, reproach, suffering, and death. His human nature shrank from all these things as decidedly as ours shrinks from them.” {ST, October 29, 1894 par. 9}
But what about evil impulses? What is an evil impulse? It is an imbalance in, or perversion of, a correct impulse, which makes you more susceptible to some kinds of temptation. After your conversion, when you ask God, He will gradually correct, according to your consent and will, the imbalance in that impulse, bringing it back to balance. And again, these impulses are in the mind, not in the body (the impulses that are in the body, which were implanted by God, cannot be removed, as I said, but just controlled).
I will ask your permission to illustrate this with a personal example. I was baptized at 16, however I joined the church convinced but not converted, and I was painfully aware of that. I spent 6 years in church trying to find God. During this time, I became painfully aware of my sins and of the weak points in my character, but I could do nothing about it; I was under the control of inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil, and my life was a life of defeat (Romans 7). To cut a long story short, one day, after six years, I found God, and believed His love for me personally. I was converted, justified, born again.
Just a few days after this, I involuntarily told a small lie. This was a problem that had been disturbing me for many years. I involuntarily told small lies and couldn’t control it, because it was an automatic behavior. I went to the Lord and told Him that if He left me to myself I could not do otherwise; it was up to Him to correct what was wrong.
Again a few days after this I saw myself in a situation in which I would have involuntarily lied, but this time I was shocked to see that I had spontaneously told the truth. Don’t you think that it was God implanting truth in my heart? Don’t you think God was transforming an impulse to lie in an impulse to tell the truth? Well, this happened almost 25 years ago. Until this day, every time I tell the truth spontaneously I still marvel, because it’s a miracle. Not once since that day have I told one lie involuntarily.
Am I still tempted to lie? By all means, like all human beings. There were many occasions on which, pressed by circumstances, I was tempted to lie - but never involuntarily. Temptation no longer led me automatically to tell a lie. I now had the choice to lie or not; I could evaluate things and choose. I can say that my natural tendency now is to tell the truth, although, as I said, I can be tempted, in pressing circumstances, to tell a lie. In some few occasions during these almost 25 years, I did choose to tell a lie. My connection with Christ failed and Satan took the opportunity to make me fall from the truth. But can you see it is completely different now? I no longer have an impulse to tell lies, I have an impulse to tell the truth.
Evil impulses aren’t suddenly removed at conversion. God will bring them to our notice one by one, and God must transform them one by one. The weaknesses you have are not my weaknesses, and my weaknesses may not be yours, but all these weaknesses may be corrected, and this is what victory is all about. However, this victory can only be maintained through a living connection with Christ moment by moment, otherwise we will fall.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/02/05 04:44 AM
Thank you Rosangela for sharing that personal testimony. I sympathize with you regarding the comment about Romans 7. I passed through the same thing, but in my case it was longer than 6 years (about double that).
I'm curious as to why you think I haven't been understanding what you've been writing. It seems to me I have been, but simply do not see things the same way, and for that reason have been responding and asking questions. Seeing something in a different way does not necessarily imply a lack of understanding.
However, I am sure it's possible I have been misunderstanding you, so if there's something I wrote which made you think "He's not understanding what I'm writing." I'd appreciate it if you would point that out. I know I've often been frustrated on this site at this very thing as I see my words twisted in ways I never intended, making it obvious to me that I was not understood. So if I have done something similar, I'd like to know.
There is one thing I'm not clear about, and that is how Christ could be sexually tempted according to how you see things. I got the impression from what you wrote previously that you did not believe that Christ could be sexually tempted, but your last post seems to be saying that He could, so this is one point at least where I have apparently misunderstood you (unless I'm misunderating your latest post, which I've taken to imply that Christ could be sexually tempted).
Thank you again for your personal testimony.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/03/05 06:40 AM
Rosangela, your testimony helped me understand alot better what you've been trying to convey. Thank you so much. And congratulations on your new life and victories. I am truly thrilled for you. I love it when the gospel works so powerfully in the lives of God's dear people.
But it sounds like your done posting on this thread and topic. Too bad. Just in case you end up reading this post I want to respond to what you posted above.
You referred to spontaneous lying versus calculated lying. I agree there is a difference. However, I believe the origin of each is the same, namely, sinful flesh nature. That is, all internally generated temptations originate in our fallen flesh nature - not in the mind of the new man.
We become consciously aware of the temptations (i.e., generated and communicated as unholy thoughts and feelings by our fallen flesh nature) in our new man mind, but they do not originate there. They originate in our sinful flesh nature.
But I agree with you that all our natural impulses begin as innocent and legitimate needs (i.e., hunger, thirst, joy, happiness, peace, etc.). I also believe they are generated and transmitted by our various organs along the central nervous system as encoded electrical impulses, which wonderfully, and mysteriously, become conscious thoughts and feelings in our new man mind (in the case of born again believers).
However, I also believe the electrical impulses are intercepted and perverted by our fallen nature. They are converted into unholy conscious thoughts and feelings. With the mind of the new man we may, by the grace of God, recognize and resist them unto the honor and glory of God.
Certain aspects of our fallen flesh nature are softened and subdued over time. As we abide in Jesus and consistently resist them they lose their power and appeal and cease to be a problem. However, other forms of the same problem (for example, impatience) will surface as we grow older.
Our sinful flesh nature will never stop perverting the innocent and legitimate needs produced by our body. We are stuck with it until the day Jesus returns and replaces it with a sinless one, like the one Adam and Eve possessed before they chose to eat the forbidden fruit.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/02/05 09:43 PM
quote:
What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again?
The sinful flesh becomes subject to the Spirit.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/03/05 01:28 AM
Tom,
Yes, I had the impression you hadn’t understood my position about the impulses implanted by God, which, of course, are present in all human beings. What can be removed is the imbalance some have in these impulses, that is, immorality, gluttony, evil temper, etc.
Mike,
It’s not that I no longer want to participate, it’s just that I think I’ve said everything I could say. Of course there are some areas of disagreement among us, but I just wanted to make sure you and Tom understood correctly my position.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/03/05 06:04 AM
I haven't understood your position regarding Christ's being sexually tempted. Before your post (not including this last one) I would have said your position was that Christ could not be sexually tempted. Now I'm not sure. I'd like to know.
Thank you.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/03/05 02:12 PM
Tom,
If Christ was a human being, He could be sexually tempted. When we discussed this, however, I pointed out that, first, Christ closed all doors to temptation by being occupied the whole time, and second, that He had one great objective in life that absorbed all His time and energies. You will admit that when you are tired or greatly absorbed in something, sex doesn’t pose a temptation. It was the same with John the Baptist and Paul, for example.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/04/05 06:36 AM
Rosangela, do you agree with the following observation (extracted from my last post):
quote:
However, I also believe the electrical impulses [generated by our organs] are intercepted and perverted by our fallen nature. They are converted into unholy conscious thoughts and feelings. With the mind of the new man we may, by the grace of God, recognize and resist them unto the honor and glory of God.
Our sinful flesh nature will never stop perverting the innocent and legitimate needs produced by our body. We are stuck with it until the day Jesus returns and replaces it with a sinless one, like the one Adam and Eve possessed before they chose to eat the forbidden fruit.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/04/05 06:41 AM
quote:
The sinful flesh becomes subject to the Spirit.
John, are you implying our sinful flesh nature stops generating and communicating unholy thoughts and feelings when we're born again, when God implants within us the new man mind? If so, how, then, was it possible for Jesus to be tempted from within like a born again believer is tempted from within (i.e., by fallen flesh nature)?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/03/05 07:53 PM
Rosangela, please let me know if I am understanding you correctly.
I understand you are saying that as a human being, it was theoretically possible for Christ to have been tempted sexually, but He was never actually tempted sexually. Am I correct?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/03/05 07:59 PM
Mike: It seems to me that there are a number of points we are in agreement on, and I'd like to clarify a point it seems we might not be, and see if you think what I'm thinking doesn't make sense.
I agree that the fallen nature continues to "generate and communicate unholy thoughts" as you put it, but would add that this is not the only source of temptations we have as believers. We've also committed sin, and these bad habits we've formed remain in our nervous system as much as the fallen nature does. God gives us power to overcome these bad habits, and at times He may actually perform miracles to where one loses the desire to do certain things (i.e. an alcoholic loses the desire to drink, or a smoker to smoke -- also the loss of these desires may happen without a miracle being performed) but this is by no means universally true.
So in brief what I'm saying is that not only does our fallen nature contribute to our temptations, so does past sins we have committed.
Christ was able to be tempted in all points like we are because He both took our nature upon Him, and took our sin. Just one or the other would not have been sufficient.
In the temptations in the wilderness, you will see, for example, that the Spirit of Prophesy points out that what made Christ's temptations so difficult was His taking the sin of the world upon Him.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/04/05 05:14 PM
Mike,
My position is that there are bodily impulses (for food, water, sex, etc.), but that there are also impulses originated in the mind, which have nothing to do with the body (for instance, the impulse to lie, love of money, pride, etc.). So I think our position differs here.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/04/05 05:19 PM
quote:
I understand you are saying that as a human being, it was theoretically possible for Christ to have been tempted sexually, but He was never actually tempted sexually. Am I correct?
Tom,
Please notice that I compared the life of Jesus in this aspect with the life of John the Baptist and Paul (or OT prophets like Elijah and Elisha). When the disciples said, “It is better not to marry”, Jesus replied, "All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given”, implying that some men have this gift. And when Paul said, “For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion”, of course this implies that if he chose not to marry it was because he was not “aflame with passion”, otherwise he would have chosen to be married. So, for some men, sex does not seem to pose a great problem.
Not all things are a problem to all people. For instance, Satan would waste his time tempting me to overeating, since the more food I see in front of me, the less I feel like eating. This, however, is a powerful temptation for most people.
The point, however, is that this discussion is irrelevant. The Bible narrates those temptations of Jesus that are important for us to know about, and in the area of appetites and passions, the Bible shows us that Jesus overcame something much more powerful than sex.
Maslow noticed that some needs take precedence over others. For example, if you are hungry and thirsty, you will tend to try to take care of the thirst first. After all, you can do without food for weeks, but you can only do without water for a couple of days! Thirst is a “stronger” need than hunger. Likewise, if you are very, very thirsty, but someone has put a choke hold on you and you can’t breathe, which is more important? The need to breathe, of course. On the other hand, sex is less powerful than any of these - you won’t die if you don’t get it.
It is clear that the most urgent needs are related to avoiding death, and it is clear that sex does not fall in this category, but hunger does.
“As in his human strength man could not resist the power of Satan's temptations, Jesus volunteered to undertake the work and to bear the burden for man, and overcome the power of appetite in his behalf. In man's behalf He must show self-denial, perseverance, and firmness of principle paramount to the gnawing pangs of hunger. He must show a power of control stronger than hunger and even death.” {Con 37.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/05/05 06:52 AM
quote:
So in brief what I'm saying is that not only does our fallen nature contribute to our temptations, so does past sins we have committed.
I agree, in part. I believe our past sins are part of our old man mind (i.e., our combined sinful traits of character), which is crucified (i.e., eliminated) when we are born again.
During the time that we were walking in the mind of the old man, developing our sinful traits of character, the corresponding traits were strengthened in our fallen flesh nature. The internally generated temptations originate with our sinful flesh nature – not our new man mind. Remember, our old man mind was crucified when we were born again. Thus, it cannot tempt us any more.
Ephesians
2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins:
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
The “desires of the flesh” are the temptations produced by our fallen flesh nature, and the “desires… of the mind” refer to the temptations produced by our old man mind. But, when we were born again and baptized, our old man mind was eliminated, along with its voice and temptations. It is only the mind and voice of our fallen flesh nature that now tempts internally. Unless, of course, we stop abiding in Jesus and resurrect our old man mind, at which point we resume where we left off sinning.
Romans
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
When we’re born again, Jesus implants within us the mind of the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous attributes of God’s character, and all the fruits of the Spirit. Our old man mind is dead, and our new man mind does not tempt us to sin. Therefore, the internal temptations that bombard us daily originate in our sinful flesh nature.
Ephesians
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Romans
12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Is that how you see things?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/05/05 06:57 AM
quote:
My position is that there are bodily impulses (for food, water, sex, etc.), but that there are also impulses originated in the mind, which have nothing to do with the body (for instance, the impulse to lie, love of money, pride, etc.). So I think our position differs here.
Actually, Rosangela, I agree with you - if you are talking about the mind of the old man and not the mind of the new man. Do you agree with the observations outlined in the post preceding this one?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/05/05 02:16 AM
Rosangela, if I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that it was theoretically possible for Christ to have been tempted sexually, but He wasn't actually tempted sexually. Is this correct?
Pardon me for reasking my question, but I am not clear as to your answer. You compared Jesus with Paul, who was no doubt sexually tempted (Paul, that is), yet Paul had the gift of celibacy, so was able to deal with it. This is how I interpret your answer relating to Paul.
However, for Jesus, I'm not clear as to whether you are saying that Jesus was tempted in a way He could handle, like Paul, or whether He was not tempted at all.
Thank you for your answer,
Tom
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/05/05 02:22 AM
quote:
Remember, our old man mind was crucified when we were born again. Thus, it cannot tempt us any more.
No, I don't see things like this. This doesn't really make sense to me, for reasons I pointed out, which I'll restate.
Take the case of someone who has smoked. Such a person is converted. I would say that this person may be tempted to smoke again not just by his flesh but also by the fact that he has committed this act so many times, and it is engrained as a habit. Your theory would seem to preclude this latter temptation, which to my mind is MUCH stronger than the mere fleshly temptation to smoke, which would be more or less equally strong in all of us.
This makes me think of a second question, which is a little unrelated here, but ties into a conversation from another thread. It seems to me that a person could ignorantly smoke, so could be a believer and commit the sin of smoking. That is, to use your classification, smoking is a sin in the 2300 days sense, an intellectual sense. Do you agree?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/05/05 05:58 PM
Tom, if our old man mind is not dead and buried when we're born again, why, then, did Paul say so in Romans 6?
In Galatians 5 Paul attributes things like hatred and jealousy to the flesh. That is, the temptation to be hateful and jealous, in the case of people walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, originates with sinful flesh nature. Do you agree that the new man mind that God implants within us the moment we're born again does not and cannot tempt us with evil?
Yes, it is possible for a believer to smoke and not realize it is a sin.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/06/05 03:19 AM
My whole way of perceiving what happens is different than yours, so it's difficult for me to answer your questions exactly as you have put them. I will explain how I see things, and you can let me know if that answers your questions or not.
I see what happens when a person is converted is that God awakens in said person a desire for spiritual things. Jesus said, blessed is he who hungers and thirsts for righteousness, for he shall be filled. If we do not resist, God implants in us a desire for righteousness, which is a desire to be like Him and live according to the principles of His kingdom.
Repentance comes from two Greek words meaning "after mind", which is to say that before we repented, we thought one way, but after repenting, we think another way. What causes our "after mind" experience, is the goodness of God, His character.
Jesus said that knowing God is eternal life. That is, knowing God as He is in truth, knowing Him as Christ revealed Him. I see this knowing process begins at conversion and continues throughout eternity.
Regarding temptations, I see that temptations come from two causes. One is from the flesh, and the other is from our past sins -- or to use Sister White's language, inherited and cultivated tendencies to sin. I asked you the smoking question to clarify how you perceive temptation. It seems to me you are denying we are tempted by our cultivated tendencies to sin, which is why I asked the question if you believed a smoker was tempted by his engrained habit of smoking. (You didn't answer this question, although you did answer they other smoking question as to whether smoking would fit into the "intellectual" category).
I don't know if I answered your question or not. If not, please try again.
Tom
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/07/05 06:15 AM
Mike,
My position is that our mind is transformed gradually, not all at once. What is transformed at once is the direction of the mind – it was directed to self, now it is directed to God; it was carnal, now it is spiritual. However, I believe we don’t become aware of our sinful tendencies all at once, and these will be transformed gradually, as we discover them.
Tom,
Saying that Satan never, during the whole life of Christ, brought sinful suggestions to Him in this area would seem improbable but, as I said, Christ rejected sinful suggestions at once as repulsive.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/07/05 02:21 AM
Rosangela, I agree with your answer to Mike. I thought what you expressed was well written.
quote:
Saying that Satan never, during the whole life of Christ, brought sinful suggestions to Him in this area would seem improbable but, as I said, Christ rejected sinful suggestions at once as repulsive.
How can one be tempted by something which is repulsive? Any temptation would be a sinful suggestion, would it not? So this would seem to say that every temptation Christ received was repulsive. Which would make temptation for Him fundamentally different than for any other human being, it seems to me.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/08/05 06:09 AM
Tom,
We are told that Christ hated sin. How do you see this?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/08/05 06:40 AM
I see that Christ hated sin because of the pain it caused to His Father, the pain it causes others, because it is contrary to God's will, because it causes death, and other reasons. For the same reasons we hate sin (although His hatred of it was more developed than ours, in accordance to how His character is more developed).
Our hatred for sin does not prevent us from being tempted.
You said you are familiar with the statement that says temptation is being strongly moved to do something we know is wrong. I haven't been able to find it. If you can, I'd appreciate it if you would post it (or a reference). I think it might be a helpful statement to look at.
Thanks.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/08/05 06:22 AM
quote:
Yes, it is possible for a believer to smoke and not realize it is a sin.
Tom, we both we agree that born again believers are tempted by their sinful flesh natures. Are these temptations independent of their past sins?
Paul spoke about the mind of the old man and the mind of the new man. See Eph 4:20-24. How do you explain these two minds?
Rosangela, I agree with you. The transformation that happens after we are born again, after God implants within us the mind of the new man, is gradual. However, I believe it is an advance from one stage of perfection to another, from glroy to glory, from faith to faith, from grace to grace - not from greater sins to lesser sins. Which is exactly how Jesus grew and matured from childhood to manhood.
ML 250
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}
During the "process of conversion", before we experience the miracle of rebirth, the Holy Spirit gradually reveals to us, in light of the cross, our cultivated traits of character. When we confess our final defect, our old man mind dies and is buried. God implants within us the mindof the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous attributes of God's character, with all the fruits of the Spirit.
That's when the process of santification begins. That's when we begin developing the sinless traits of character that God implanted within us.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/08/05 07:41 AM
Mike:Tom, we both we agree that born again believers are tempted by their sinful flesh natures. Are these temptations independent of their past sins?
Tom:Not at all. It is our past sins which give force to the temptations of the flesh. Consider the smoker. The strength of the temptations for him to smoke comes not only from inherited tendencies to evil, but the cultivated ones as well.
Mike:Paul spoke about the mind of the old man and the mind of the new man. See Eph 4:20-24. How do you explain these two minds?
Tom: Please consider the first page of this page. I think that treats your question.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/08/05 08:27 PM
Paul makes it clear that our old man mind is crucified and buried the moment we are born again, and that's why I believe our former cultivated character habits of sin (i.e., our old man mind) no longer tempts us after we're born again, that is, so long as we are abiding in Jesus in the mind of the new man.
It is true that our cultivated habits of sin strengthen our corresponding inherited traits. Remember, cultivated habits are nothing more than inherited traits that we ourselves have converted into character. The traits that we nuture and strengthen are the ones we pass on to our children in strengthened form, along with the traits we never cultivated.
These same strengthened traits that we pass on to our children remain within us after we are born again. They tempt us with greater strength, strength proportionate to what we added to it. It is this fortified fleshly nature that tempts us after we are born again - not our former sins in some other form, or our old man mind.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/09/05 05:08 AM
quote:
It is this fortified fleshly nature that tempts us after we are born again - not our former sins in some other form, or our old man mind.
I have no clue as to what this means.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/09/05 05:28 PM
Before we are born again we spend our time fortifying and strengthening the traits we inherited by developing old man habits of character. After we are born our old man mind is dead and buried. The only thing that remains to tempt us is our fortified fallen flesh nature.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/10/05 06:58 AM
Tom,
I've found two quotes we could discuss:
"Christ's heart was pierced by a far sharper pain than that caused by the nails driven into his hands and feet. He was bearing the sins of the whole world, enduring our punishment,--the wrath of God against transgression. His trial involved the fierce temptation of thinking that he was forsaken by God. His soul was tortured by the pressure of great darkness, lest he should swerve from his uprightness during the terrible ordeal. Unless there is a possibility of yielding, temptation is no temptation. Temptation is resisted when man is powerfully influenced to do a wrong action; and, knowing that he can do it, resists, by faith, with a firm hold upon divine power. This was the ordeal through which Christ passed. He could not have been tempted in all points as man is tempted, had there been no possibility of his failing. He was a free agent, placed on probation, as was Adam, and as is every man. In his closing hours, while hanging on the cross, he experienced to the fullest extent what man must experience when striving against sin. He realized how bad a man may become by yielding to sin. He realized the terrible consequence of the transgression of God's law; for the iniquity of the whole world was upon him." {YI, July 20, 1899 par. 10}
"The disciples could not discern the evil of Judas' heart; only the eye of God could discern the hidden motive, the unholy desire. When an impure thought is welcomed, an unholy desire cherished, a rebellious purpose formed, the purity of the soul is stained and its innocence is ruined, temptations prevail, and hell triumphs. 'Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.' A man is tempted to sin when some attractive object or indulgence is presented to him, and he is drawn to overstep principle, and to violate his conscience in doing that which he knows to be wrong." {ST, December 18, 1893 par. 7}
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/09/05 09:18 PM
quote:
Before we are born again we spend our time fortifying and strengthening the traits we inherited by developing old man habits of character. After we are born our old man mind is dead and buried. The only thing that remains to tempt us is our fortified fallen flesh nature.
This didn't help. It looks to me like you just repeated what you said. Try saying it in some other way please. Or define your terms.
Thanks.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/09/05 09:37 PM
Thank you, Rosangela. The first one was the one I was trying to remember.
It seems to me that Christ took upon Him both our inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil. How He took our inherited tendencies is easier to understand than how He took our cultivated tendencies. The inherited tendencies He assumed by accepting the results of the great law of heredity. Genetically He was like us.
How He took our cultivated tendencies to evil, I don't know. But this happened not simply on the cross, but was a part of His incarnation. There are a couple of ways to see this. I'll name three.
John 1:29 speaks of the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. That "takes" was present tense, and could be well translated "taking" or "bearing".
Matthew refers to Christ's healing as a fulfillment of Isaiah 53 long before the cross.
The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that it was the weight of the sins of the world pressing upon Christ which made His temptations in the wilderness so difficult.
I understand that Christ was tempted as we are, with inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil. Obviously Christ never sinned, so the cultivated tendencies to evil were not His (i.e. not due to sins He commited) but were ours.
On the cross, the temptation of Christ reached its greatest point, which is shown by the statement that Christ saw how evil a man could be come. Isaiah 53 brings this out also, as well as a number of psalms. Christ felt as if He were the worst sinner who ever lived.
Back to the first quote. It brings out that Christ was powerfully influenced, and overcame by laying hold of divine power by faith. I believe Christ would have been overcome had He not done this, just as we cannot overcome apart from laying hold of divine power by faith. It is this fact which is characteristic of Christ's having taken our sinful nature -- i.e. Christ had a force acting upon Him (the force of our sinful nature) which would have caused Him to sin had He not laid hold of divine power by faith.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/10/05 02:25 PM
Let's take a look at the text:
"Unless there is a possibility of yielding, temptation is no temptation. Temptation is resisted when man is powerfully influenced to do a wrong action; and, knowing that he can do it, resists, by faith, with a firm hold upon divine power."
Does this defition of temptation apply to Adam or not?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/10/05 05:57 PM
No, not in context. Our first parents had the ability to overcome on their own, without having to lay hold of divine power by faith, just like all of the other worlds were able to overcome. We do not have that ability, and neither did Christ (in His humanity).
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/10/05 07:20 PM
quote:
How He took our cultivated tendencies to evil, I don't know.
I don't believe He did. Here's why. We all agree there is a difference between inherited and cultivated sins. Apparently, though, we do not agree on why and how they are different.
I believe inherited traits and sinful flesh nature are synonymous terms. Do you agree?
I do not believe cultivated traits (character) and inherited traits (nature) are the same things. Do you agree?
I believe inherited traits are passed on from generation to generation. Do you agree?
I believe we develop character as we cultivate inherited traits. Do you agree?
I believe inherited traits are strengthened as we cultivate them, as we develop character. Do you agree?
I believe we pass on our strengthened traits to our children. Do you agree?
I believe we pass on our cultivated traits as inherited traits. Do you agree?
I do not believe character is inherited. Do you agree?
I believe character is developed as we react and respond to inside and outside stimuli tempting us to sin or encouraging us to imitate the example of Jesus. Do you agree?
I believe Jesus inherited our nature, not our character. Do you agree?
Rosangela, I agree with Tom that there is a difference in how Adam encountered temptation and how fallen people do. Adam was capable of resisting sin in his own strength. His possibility of falling was the same as fallen beings.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/11/05 07:44 AM
I don't believe He did.
John 1:29 says, "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world." Surely this is referring to actual committed sins, is it not? (which would be cultivated tendencies to evil). There's also Peter which says that Christ bore our sins in His body. Also Isaiah and others. Do you disagree that these verses are referring to cultivated tendencies to evil?
Here's why. We all agree there is a difference between inherited and cultivated sins. Apparently, though, we do not agree on why and how they are different.
I believe inherited traits and sinful flesh nature are synonymous terms. Do you agree?
Not exactly. Inherited traits can be either good or bad, so the connotation of "inherited traits" is neutral. OTOH "sinful flesh nature" has a negative connotation. If you had said, "inherited tendencies to evil" and "sinful flesh" were synonymous terms, I would agree.
I do not believe cultivated traits (character) and inherited traits (nature) are the same things. Do you agree?
Yes, I agree.
I believe inherited traits are passed on from generation to generation. Do you agree?
Of course. That's what "inherited" means.
I believe we develop character as we cultivate inherited traits. Do you agree?
I believe we develop character as we make decisions. As a result of the decisions we make, we may or may not cultivate inherited traits.
I believe inherited traits are strengthened as we cultivate them, as we develop character. Do you agree?
If we cultivate traits, they become cultivated. "Cultivated" seems to be synonymous to me with "strengthened" as you are using the terms.
I believe we pass on our strengthened traits to our children. Do you agree?
I think this is possible, but not necessarily true. How genetics plays into traits we develop in our lifetime I don't think is clearly understood. There are statements from the Spirit of Prophesy which indicate to me, as I read them, that what you are suggesting does at least at times happen.
I believe we pass on our cultivated traits as inherited traits. Do you agree?
I believe it's possible, but not necessary. I'll give an example. Let's say I learn many foreign languages, before having children. Would my children have a greater genetic proclivity to learn languages because I developed that trait? I doubt it.
I do not believe character is inherited. Do you agree?
I understand that character is developed by the decisinos we make. Decisions we make are not inherited. Tendencies are inherited.
I believe character is developed as we react and respond to inside and outside stimuli tempting us to sin or encouraging us to imitate the example of Jesus. Do you agree?
Yes, I agree.
I believe Jesus inherited our nature, not our character. Do you agree?
How could character be inherited? That doesn't make any sense to me.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/11/05 02:10 PM
Tom and Mike,
You both believe a myth. Adam should have overcome by faith, laying hold of the divine power, exactly like Christ and like us. How could man overcome a being superior to him without the divine power?
I've already provided quotes showing that Adam should have overcome by faith. Now I will provide a quote showing that he should have laid hold of the divine power to overcome Satan's temptation:
"Satan charmed the first Adam by his sophistry, just as he charms men and women today, leading them to believe a lie. Adam did not reach above his humanity for divine power. He believed the words of Satan. But the second Adam was not to become the enemy's bondslave." {ST, December 3, 1902 par. 6}
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/11/05 02:35 PM
quote:
How could character be inherited? That doesn't make any sense to me.
Of course the basic constitution of the character is inherited, and the child will naturally and unconsciously begin to manifest, a few days after birth, all the good and bad traits of character he/she has inherited.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/11/05 03:03 PM
Nothing happens to your nature or your sinful flesh when you are born again. Before being born again you had a human nature, and after being born again you will still have a human nature. Before being born again you have sinful flesh, and after being born again you will still have sinful flesh. Being born again is nothing more than going to work for a new boss. Your allegiance is changed. Now you want to please your new boss and slowly but surely your behavior will change. For example, for 25 years you used to go to the east side of the city to work. You did that everyday. It was your routine. Today you begin work for a new boss on the west side of town. You no longer go to the east side of town, even though from time to time in a fit of absentmindedness you may go in that direction. But you don't change who you are. Only the allegiance of your mind has changed.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/12/05 06:53 AM
Tom, I believe cultivated sinful traits of character are passed on as sinful inherited traits. Whether or not we cultivate this or that sinful trait we inherited from our ancestors is a matter of choice. Jesus inherited the same sinful traits we inherited. Unlike us, however, He never cultivated them, never turned them into character.
Although inherited character traits and cultivated character traits are related, that is, one is the mirror image of the other, we are not, however, held accountable in judgment for the traits we inherit. We are only held accountable in judgment for the ones we ourselves choose to cultivate. Do you agree?
Each time a sinful character trait is cultivated and passed on, it becomes stronger to tempt and enslave the next generation. Thus, sinful nature (i.e., our combined anad accumulated inherited sinful traits of character) gains momentum and power and strength each succeeding generation. Do you agree?
Rosangela, good point. But do you agree that Adam possessed powers and abilities that he forfeited when he sinned? powers and abilities we do not possess naturally now? Isn't there an EGW quote to this effect?
Darius, I agree.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/12/05 08:11 AM
When we speak of Adam having faith and laying hold of divine power, what does that mean? Faith is the conviction of things unseen, but Adam walked face to face with God. No fallen being has seen God at any time, because no man could see God and live. It seems to me there are profound differences between unfallen Adam and fallen man. It seems to me that while faith is essentially beliving or trusting God, this is a much different affair for fallen and unfallen man.
I think we agree that fallen man can not overcome temptation except by divine grace. However we appear to disagree that unfallen beings can overcome temptation without divine power. Since Satan is superior to ever other created being, that would seem to imply that only by laying hold of divine power and exercising faith could any being overcome him. That's certainly a possible explanation, as Satan was preaching lies about God, and the only way to avoid ruin would be by believing God (which is faith).
So we have a tautology here. The only way to believe God is by exercising faith. The alternative is to believe the lie.
So what's the difference between unfallen Adam and fallen man? Let me try stating it another way. Without grace we cannot overcome temptation. Unfallen Adam could have overcome without grace. Maybe that will work.
So regarding Christ's having taken our sinful nature, I'll try to express the thought this way. Christ, had He taken the unfallen nature of Adam, could have overcome temptation without grace. Having taken our fallen nature, Christ could not have overcome apart from God's help, but was as dependent on grace as we are. Christ was righteous by faith.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/12/05 11:04 AM
quote:
It seems to me that while faith is essentially, believing or trusting God, this is a much different affair for fallen and unfallen man.
Trusting or believing someone is the same thing whether you see them or not. It is trusting their: judgment, goodwill, intentions, understanding, wisdon... It is also the same whether one is an angel or sinner.
quote:
I think we agree that fallen man can not overcome temptation except by divine grace. However we appear to disagree that unfallen beings can overcome temptation without divine power.
Grace is needed to stand whether in heaven or on earth. The difference in those who are not fallen is that they are partakers of grace until they break faith, while the fallen beings must by faith first become partakers of grace.
Grace is divine power; the law of the spirit of life.
quote:
So we have a tautology here. The only way to believe God is by exercising faith. The alternative is to believe the lie.
The alternative therefore also takes faith! But it establishes the law of sin and death.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/12/05 04:18 PM
quote:
The difference in those who are not fallen is that they are partakers of grace until they break faith, while the fallen beings must by faith first become partakers of grace.
I'm not following this. I understand that all fallen humanity partakes of God's grace, and it is because of this grace that man exists. For example (I apologize for the long quote, but it's the best I know of on this subject):
quote:
By rebellion and apostasy man forfeited the favor of God; not his rights, for he could have no value except as it was invested in God's dear Son. This point must be understood. He forfeited those privileges which God in His mercy presented him as a free gift, a treasure in trust to be used to advance His cause and His glory, to benefit the beings He had made. The moment the workmanship of God refused obedience to the laws of God's kingdom, that moment he became disloyal to the government of God and he made himself entirely unworthy of all the blessings wherewith God had favored him.
This was the position of the human race after man divorced himself from God by transgression. Then he was no longer entitled to a breath of air, a ray of sunshine, or a particle of food. And the reason why man was not annihilated was because God so loved him that He made the gift of His dear Son that He should suffer the penalty of his transgression. Christ proposed to become man's surety and substitute, that man, through matchless grace, should have another trial--a second probation--having the experience of Adam and Eve as a warning not to transgress God's law as they did. And inasmuch as man enjoys the blessings of God in the gift of the sunshine and the gift of food, there must be on the part of man a bowing before God in thankful acknowledgment that all things come of God. Whatever is rendered back to Him is only His own who has given it. Man broke God's law, and through the Redeemer new and fresh promises were made on a different basis. All blessings must come through a Mediator. Now every member of the human family is given wholly into the hands of Christ, and whatever we possess--whether it is the gift of money, of houses, of lands, of reasoning powers, of physical strength, of intellectual talents--in this present life, and the blessings of the future life, are placed in our possession as God's treasures to be faithfully expended for the benefit of man. Every gift is stamped with the cross and bears the image and superscription of Jesus Christ. All things come of God. From the smallest benefits up to the largest blessing, all flow through the one Channel--a superhuman mediation sprinkled with the blood that is of value beyond estimate because it was the life of God in His Son. (FW 21, 22)
Before disobedience man received the blessings of God on a different basis than after. After it was on the basis of grace. That's my understanding of what the above is saying.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/12/05 04:32 PM
quote:
Christ, had He taken the unfallen nature of Adam, could have overcome temptation without grace. Having taken our fallen nature, Christ could not have overcome apart from God's help, but was as dependent on grace as we are. Christ was righteous by faith.
Tom,
Adam needed God's help to overcome Satan's temptations as much as Christ did. Both Adam and Christ had to overcome by faith, and faith is trusting God. Can you support your statement that Adam didn’t need grace but Christ needed grace?
Of course in a general sense we could say that the very life unfallen beings enjoy is a gift of God’s grace. However, in a strict sense, grace is the unmerited favor that God displays towards those who sin, and Christ never sinned.
Man before his fall had a perfect love, therefore he could have by faith rendered a perfect obedience (unspotted by selfishness) and merited eternal life, a benefit that would have been extended to his posterity. This was the covenant made with the First Adam. And of course this was also the covenant made with the Second Adam. Christ, by His perfect obedience, redeemed Adam’s failure and earned eternal life, a benefit that is extended to His spiritual posterity. Now we, through His merits, can have eternal life.
And all this controversy is ended, as soon as the matter is settled that the merits of fallen man in his good works can never procure eternal life for him. {FW 19.3}
Through the merits of Christ, every soul may win eternal life. {BEcho, November 19, 1894 par. 14}
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/12/05 05:50 PM
quote:
John: The difference in those who are not fallen is that they are partakers of grace until they break faith, while the fallen beings must by faith first become partakers of grace.
Tom: I'm not following this. I understand that all fallen humanity partakes of God's grace, and it is because of this grace that man exists.
We understand that God has grace towards every being, but not every being is a partaker or possessor of that grace.
Only those who are of faith can be possessors of grace. Simply put, they live grace. Adam was clothed with glory; God’s glory; God’s grace. When he broke faith he lost the glory.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/12/05 07:32 PM
The following quotes support Tom's position:
1BC 1083
In what consisted the strength of the assault made upon Adam, which caused his fall? It was not indwelling sin; for God made Adam after His own character, pure and upright. There were no corrupt principles in the first Adam, no corrupt propensities or tendencies to evil. Adam was as faultless as the angels before God's throne. These things are inexplainable, but many things which now we cannot understand will be made plain when we shall see as we are seen, and know as we are known (Letter 191, 1899). {1BC 1083.6}
PP 61
After their sin Adam and Eve were no longer to dwell in Eden. They earnestly entreated that they might remain in the home of their innocence and joy. They confessed that they had forfeited all right to that happy abode, but pledged themselves for the future to yield strict obedience to God. But they were told that their nature had become depraved by sin; they had lessened their strength to resist evil and had opened the way for Satan to gain more ready access to them. In their innocence they had yielded to temptation; and now, in a state of conscious guilt, they would have less power to maintain their integrity. {PP 61.4}
CON 45
Because man fallen could not overcome Satan with his human strength, Christ came from the royal courts of heaven to help him with His human and divine strength combined. Christ knew that Adam in Eden with his superior advantages might have withstood the temptations of Satan and conquered him. He also knew that it was not possible for man out of Eden, separated from the light and love of God since the fall, to resist the temptations of Satan in his own strength. In order to bring hope to man, and save him from complete ruin, He humbled Himself to take man's nature, that with His divine power combined with the human He might reach man where he is. He obtained for the fallen sons and daughters of Adam that strength which it is impossible for them to gain for themselves, that in His name they might overcome the temptations of Satan. {Con 45.2}
CON 47
Fallen men had not the advantages of Adam in Eden. They had been separating from God for four thousand years. The wisdom to understand, and power to resist, the temptations of Satan had become less and less, until Satan seemed to reign triumphant in the earth. Appetite and passion, the love of the world, and presumptuous sins were the great branches of evil out of which every species of crime, violence, and corruption grew. Satan was defeated in his object to overcome Christ upon the point of appetite. And here in the wilderness Christ achieved a victory in behalf of the race upon the point of appetite, making it possible for man, in all future time in His name to overcome the strength of appetite on his own behalf. {Con 47.1}
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/13/05 07:56 AM
John, there's different ways to understand grace. I don't disagree with the things you wrote. The things I wrote are also true, I believe, as shown by the quote I provided. So it seems to me we're dealing with a situation of trying to express ideas with words when there's not a one to one correspondence of the two (i.e. one to one correspondence of ideas and words).
Another way of saying what you said, it seems to me, is that God is by nature gracious, and so acts graciously to all, or equivalently extends grace to all.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/13/05 07:58 AM
Rosangela, what do you see is different between fallen and unfallen man in regards to man's nature and temptation? Does Christ's life and death do anything for man other than achieve merit which is dispensed as needed? (am I expressing your view correctly here?)
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/13/05 08:14 AM
I see a difference in the experience of man regarding faith and grace in that man has personally experienced God's mercy. Surely there are Spirit of Prophesy quotations to this effect. This seems very obvious to me.
Unfortunately I'm very busy right now, so won't have much time to look for things. I appreciate that insights and questions being provided. I'm especially interested in answering Rosangela's question regarding if unfallen Adam needed grace as much as Christ did. My immediate reaction is that, as Adam pointed out, God could deal with Adam on the basis of obedience, because he never sinned, and while it is true that Christ also never sinned, and thus could be dealt with on the basis of obdience, Christ never could have overcome without grace in the first place. So Christ needed grace to overcome, but unfallen Adam did not. Why? Because Christ was made to be sin for us. He Himself never sinned, but He took our sinful nature, and more than that, was made to be sin for us.
He cried out:
quote:
11 Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me. 12 For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me. 13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. (Ps. 40:11-13)
We know this is Christ from earlier verses and Hebrews 10 which quotes this psalm as referring to Christ. The experience quoted here is not one of unfallen Adam, and sounds a lot like a plea for grace.
Here's a statement from the Spirit of Prophesy:
quote:
Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield; for God made him pure and upright, in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh." (BE 11/03/00)
This contrasts unfallan Adam's position of no corrupt principles nor tendencies to evil with Christ's position in taking "the likeness of sinful flesh." The difficulties which unfallen man has to face are more greater than what Adam had to face, and required the sacrifice of Christ to enable fallen man to overcome. By the sacrifice of Christ, I do not mean merely His death, but His becoming human; His whole life's ministry, and culminating with His death. Without this supreme revelation of God's character, fallen man would have had absolultely no chance of overcoming the sophistry of Satan. But unfallen Adam could have overcome without this sacrifice of Christ. So there is a difference in what is needed for fallen man and unfallen man.
This is looking at things in a small scale. In a broader view, the sacrifice of Christ was as necessary for unfallen beings as for fallen ones, in terms of placing the universe on a basis of stability by clarifying God's character and the principles of His government in contrast with Satan's. Of course this is just what Christ did for fallen man as well, so I'm sort of arguing both sides of the question on this one.
I appreciate the thoughts and questions. This has been a very stimulating study.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/14/05 06:06 AM
Tom and Mike,
The main difference I see between fallen and unfallen man in regards to man's nature and temptation is moral power, that is, the power to do the will of God – to do right and to resist evil.
Using Mike’s quotations:
But they were told that their nature had become depraved by sin; they had lessened their strength to resist evil and had opened the way for Satan to gain more ready access to them. In their innocence they had yielded to temptation; and now, in a state of conscious guilt, they would have less power to maintain their integrity. {PP 61.4}
Fallen men had not the advantages of Adam in Eden. They had been separating from God for four thousand years. The wisdom to understand, and power to resist, the temptations of Satan had become less and less, until Satan seemed to reign triumphant in the earth. {Con 47.1}
It was impossible for man, who had weakened his moral power through transgression of God's law, to keep the commandments of God; {ST, June 15, 1891 par. 5}
This is the disadvantage of fallen man in relation to unfallen man. That Christ had moral power from birth is clear, for He never sinned:
The life of Christ was distinguished from the generality of children. His strength of moral character, and his firmness, ever led him to be true to his sense of duty, and to adhere to the principles of right, from which no motive, however powerful, could move him. Money or pleasure, applause or censure, could not purchase or flatter him to consent to a wrong action. He was strong to resist temptation, wise to discover evil, and firm to abide faithful to his convictions. {YI, April 1, 1872 par. 3}
It seems to me that His divinity supplied the wisdom to discover evil, the strength to resist temptation, the firmness to abide faithful to right. What do you guys think about this?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/14/05 06:43 AM
I think there is a difficulty in what you wrote in that the Spirit of Prophesy states that Christ disproved Satan's claims that
man could keep the law. If Christ overcome by His own divine power, then He did nothing to disprove Satan's claims.
quote:
Satan declared that it was impossible for the sons and daughters of Adam to keep the law of God, and thus charged upon God a lack of wisdom and love. If they could not keep the law, then there was fault with the Lawgiver. Men who are under the control of Satan repeat these accusations against God, in asserting that men can not keep the law of God. Jesus humbled himself, clothing his divinity with humanity, in order that he might stand as the head and representative of the human family, and by both precept and example condemn sin in the flesh, and give the lie to Satan's charges. (ST 1/16/96)
A second question I had about the explanation is what it means to say that man does not have moral power to resist temptation and do right? That is, would you express the thought in other words (i.e. without using the phrase "moral power").
Finally, I believe that because of Adam's sin, man's nature was impacted so that he had tendencies to sin which did not exist before Adam's sin. That is, Adam had no corrupt principles or tendencies to evil:
quote:
Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield; for God made him pure and upright, in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh." (BE 9/3/00)
So having corrupt principles and tendencies to evil in the flesh is a characteristic of fallen man, and is the reason IMO that man does not have the moral power to resist temptation and do right.
I agree that Christ overcame the weaknesseses of fallen humanity by divine power, but it was not by virtue of His own divinity that Christ overcame, but by the divine power of His Father. Christ overcame by faith, not by virture of His own divine power.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/15/05 06:36 AM
Sister White uses the expression "moral power" scores of times. While we are born with moral power we are not born with the ability to use it unto the honor and glory of God. We must be born again and receive the implanted mind of the new man and partake of the divine nature in order to use our moral powers to obey the law of God and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit, to become like Jesus. Thus it was for Jesus. He, too, had to rely on His Father to resist sinning and to develop a pure and spotless character.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/14/05 09:41 PM
quote:
Sister White uses the expression "moral power" scores of times.
So? The Bible uses words like "justification" and "sanctification" many times. The fact that a word has been used been some author doesn't mean the is understood, does it?
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/14/05 09:48 PM
Tom,
I will write in more detail later, but I gave a simple definition in the first sentence of my post - moral power is the power to do right and to resist evil.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/15/05 02:26 AM
Happy Sabbath to you all.
Tom,
This is a very deep subject, and I’m just saying what seems to make more sense to me, but I’m not claiming to have a correct understanding of the subject.
Ellen White does say that Christ depended on God by faith, that He was fitted for the conflict by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but she also has many passages like the following, which seem to imply that He overcame because of His divinity:
"The Saviour, during his life on the earth, was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin. In him the weakness of humanity was united with the strength of divinity. Because he experienced the temptations of humanity, he knows how to succor all who are tempted; because his humanity was united with divinity, every young man, every young woman, who chooses to follow in his footsteps, may be a partaker of the divine nature, and escape the corruption that is in the world through lust." {CUM, September 3, 1907 par. 5}
"Christ overcame every temptation of the enemy, because in him divinity and humanity were combined." {ST, September 26, 1892 par. 4}
"In Christ, divinity and humanity were combined. Divinity was not degraded to humanity; divinity held its place, but humanity by being united to divinity, withstood the fiercest test of temptation in the wilderness."--Ibid., Feb. 18, 1890. {7ABC 445.1}
And she makes it even more clear here:
"Then [after the third temptation] it was that the divinity of Christ came to the aid of His humanity. With divine authority He commanded, 'Get thee behind Me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve' (Luke 4:8)."--Ms 92, 1908, pp. 6, 8. {8MR 290.4}
"All who are striving for the crown of everlasting life will be tempted as was their Master before them. He was proffered the kingdoms of the world if He would pay homage to Satan. Had Christ yielded to this temptation, the world would have passed forever under the sway of the wicked one. But, thank God, His divinity shone through humanity. He did that which every human being may do in the name and strength of Jesus. He said, 'Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve' (Matt. 4:10). If this is the way you meet temptation, Satan will leave you, as he left Christ, and angels will minister unto you, as they ministered unto Him." {2SM 137.2}
Perhaps what she means is that the Trinity worked together in Christ? His divinity acted, but never independently of the divinity of the Father and of the Holy Spirit.
It is also by the power of divinity that we may overcome, so Christ did nothing that we can't do.
As to moral power, it is the power to do the will of God and not deviate of it; so it means, by extension, the power to discern and resist temptation.
"The sinful nature of man was weak, and he was prone to the transgression of God's commandments. Man had not the power to do the words of God; that is why Christ came to our world, that He might give him moral power." {14MR 82.3}
Our tendencies to evil are the areas in which we are weaker in moral power, that is, the areas in which we are more prone to fall into temptation.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/15/05 07:47 AM
quote:
This is a very deep subject, and I’m just saying what seems to make more sense to me, but I’m not claiming to have a correct understanding of the subject.
We can agree on this!
If we consider what Christ's mission was, it seems evident that He could have not accomplished it by relying on His own divinity. His mission was to reveal God's character, and including demonstrating to man the possibility of overcoming by faith. This could not have been done had He relied on His own power. The following discusses one miracle, but the same principle applies to all:
quote:
When Jesus was awakened to meet the storm, He was in perfect peace. There was no trace of fear in word or look, for no fear was in His heart. But He rested not in the possession of almighty power. It was not as the "Master of earth and sea and sky" that He reposed in quiet. That power He had laid down, and He says, "I can of Mine own self do nothing." John 5:30. He trusted in the Father's might. It was in faith--faith in God's love and care--that Jesus rested, and the power of that word which stilled the storm was the power of God.(DA 336)
The quote I mentioned earlier brings out that Satan's claim was that fallen man could not overcome the law. Christ put the lie to this claim of Satan's, according to the Spirit of Prophesy. This is only possible if Christ took our nature and was tempted as we are, in all ways whatever we are tempted. This is logically clear, and this claim is made many times by the Spirit of Prophesy. The same logic she used was used throughout our literature and preached publicly, until relatively recently.
I think this is the quote I quoted before:
quote:
Satan declared that it was impossible for the sons and daughters of Adam to keep the law of God, and thus charged upon God a lack of wisdom and love. If they could not keep the law, then there was fault with the Lawgiver. Men who are under the control of Satan repeat these accusations against God, in asserting that men can not keep the law of God. Jesus humbled himself, clothing his divinity with humanity, in order that he might stand as the head and representative of the human family, and by both precept and example condemn sin in the flesh, and give the lie to Satan's charges.(ST 1/16/96)
I already made the point that Christ had to take our nature, be tempted like we are, and overcome like we do in order to put the lie to Satan's claims. Another point I'd like to raise here is that Christ had to do these things in order to reveal God's character. This is because Satan's claim challenged God's wisdom and love. In order to vindicate God's character, Christ must overcome as we overcome.
I would like to understand the connection between Christ's taking our nature and His mission to reveal God's character. I believe all truth is related to God's character, and all error can be traced to a misunderstanding of God's character. In particular the view that God is arbitrary has many implications.
I like you am simply sharing how I understand these things, and like you don't claim to completely understand them. In particular, as I mentioned, I'd like to understand more clearly how Christ's taking our nature and overcoming demonstrates God's wisdon and love.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/16/05 06:01 AM
Rosangela, the divinity combined with humanity applies to born again believers, as well.
COL 314
Satan had claimed that it was impossible for man to obey God's commandments; and in our own strength it is true that we cannot obey them. But Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts. {COL 314.4}
FW 71
Christ took upon Himself humanity for us. He clothed His divinity, and divinity and humanity were combined. He showed that that law which Satan declared could not be kept, could be kept. Christ took humanity to stand here in our world, to show that Satan had lied. He took humanity upon Himself to demonstrate that with divinity and humanity combined, man could keep the law of Jehovah. Separate humanity from divinity, and you can try to work out your own righteousness from now till Christ comes, and it will be nothing but a failure. {FW 71.1}
FW 93, 94
We must center our hopes of heaven upon Christ alone, because He is our Substitute and Surety. We have transgressed the law of God, and by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified. The best efforts that man in his own strength can make are valueless to meet the holy and just law that he has transgressed; but through faith in Christ he may claim the righteousness of the Son of God as all-sufficient. Christ satisfied the demands of the law in His human nature. He bore the curse of the law for the sinner, made an atonement for him, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Genuine faith appropriates the righteousness of Christ, and the sinner is made an overcomer with Christ; for he is made a partaker of the divine nature, and thus divinity and humanity are combined. {FW 93.3}
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/15/05 07:31 PM
Yes, Mike, exactly. We can only overcome temptation by combining humanity with divinity. Ellen White says that Christ overcame temptation because in Him humanity and divinity were combined. What does she refer to here? His own divinity? Or the Father's divinity? What do you think about it?
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/15/05 07:50 PM
quote:
The quote I mentioned earlier brings out that Satan's claim was that fallen man could not overcome the law. Christ put the lie to this claim of Satan's, according to the Spirit of Prophesy. This is only possible if Christ took our nature and was tempted as we are, in all ways whatever we are tempted.
Tom,
Satan said that angels in heaven couldn't keep the law. He said that man before his fall couldn't keep the law:
"Satan, the fallen angel, had declared that no man could keep God's law, and he pointed to the disobedience of Adam as proving the declaration true."--ST April 10, 1893. {TA 58.3}
It is only logical that man after his fall couldn't keep the law. But what Satan claimed was that the whole race was under his control (Jesus came to put an end to this claim):
"Satan, the fallen angel, had declared that no man could keep the law of God after the disobedience of Adam. He claimed the whole race under his control." {5MR 112.1}
But Christ didn't come to demonstrate that man after his fall could keep the law. He came to demonstrate that man before his fall could keep the law:
"Christ came to the earth, taking humanity and standing as man's representative, to show in the controversy with Satan that man, as God created him, connected with the Father and the Son, could obey every divine requirement." {1SM 253.4}
As the representative of the race, Christ came to redeem not our failure, but Adam's failure:
"Christ is called the second Adam. In purity and holiness, connected with God and beloved by God, he began where the first Adam began. Willingly he passed over the ground where Adam fell, and redeemed Adam's failure." {YI, June 2, 1898 par. 1}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/16/05 06:15 AM
Rosangela, do these quotes help you answer your question:
TDG 298
Contemplate Jesus your Saviour. Think how He humbled Himself. He was Commander in the heavenly courts, but He laid aside His crown, His kingly robe, and clothed His divinity with humanity, that humanity might touch humanity, and divinity lay hold upon divinity. For the sake of fallen man He humbled Himself. {TDG 298.1}
DA 644
He had a full consciousness of His divinity; but He had laid aside His royal crown and kingly robes, and had taken the form of a servant. {DA 644.5}
RC 237
For thirty-three years He lived the life of a man among men, meeting the temptations that we must meet, and overcoming through the strength imparted from above. His divinity was not manifested in any display of pomp and royal power. {RC 237.3}
RC 237
Christ came to stand at the head of humanity, and to demonstrate that through the power of the Holy Spirit it is possible for man to withstand Satan's temptations.{RC 237.4}
OHC 48
The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with his instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ; He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God's power to help in every emergency. Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. {OHC 48.3}
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/16/05 07:41 AM
Rosangela, it's true that Satan claimed that a whole bunch of different classes couldn't keep the law, including humanity in general, and unfallen humanity. It's also true that Christ showed that man could keep the law; that is, man in general.
However, that wasn't my point. My point is that Satan claimed that
fallen man could not keep the law, and that Christ put the law to
that claim. The quote I provided stated that:
quote:
Satan declared that it was impossible for the sons and daughters of Adam to keep the law of God, and thus charged upon God a lack of wisdom and love. If they could not keep the law, then there was fault with the Lawgiver. Men who are under the control of Satan repeat these accusations against God, in asserting that men can not keep the law of God. Jesus humbled himself, clothing his divinity with humanity, in order that he might stand as the head and representative of the human family, and by both precept and example condemn sin in the flesh, and give the lie to Satan's charges. (ST 1/16/96)
Notice that she refers implicitly to Romans. 8:3, 4, which says that same thing she is. Christ came in our flesh in order that we, fallen man in sinful flesh, could overcome. Christ could not give victory to us in our flesh unless He took the very same flesh in which we are to be victorious. This was the unanimous logic of Adventism for nearly 100 years.
Here are some other quotes that point out that it is the question of whether fallen man could keep the law that Christ put to rest:
quote:
Christ declared, where stands Satan's throne, there shall stand My cross, the instrument of humiliation and suffering. No single principle of human nature will I violate. Clothing My divinity with humility, I will endure every temptation wherewith man is beset. I will call to My aid the powers of heaven, that men and women, imbued with My Spirit, may overcome as I overcame. 5MR 114)
Note that Christ did not violate any principle of human nature. The powers He used to overcome were only that which we have access to. He could not overcome on the basis of His own divinity, as in this case that charges against God's character would still remain.
quote:
The Lord Jesus has bridged the gulf that sin has made. He has connected earth with heaven, and finite man with the infinite God. Jesus, the world's Redeemer, as our example, could only keep the commandments of God in the same way that humanity can keep them. (ST 1/17/93)
We don't have the ability to call upon our divinity to overcome, so neither could Christ. He could only keep the commandments of God in the same we that we can, which is by faith, not by inherent divinity.
quote:
Because man fallen could not overcome Satan with his human strength, Christ came from the royal courts of Heaven to help him with his human and divine strength combined. Christ knew that Adam in Eden, with his superior advantages, might have withstood the temptations of Satan, and conquered him. He also knew that it was not possible for man, out of Eden, separated from the light and love of God since the fall, to resist the temptations of Satan in his own strength. In order to bring hope to man, and save him from complete ruin, he humbled himself to take man's nature, that, with his divine power combined with the human, he might reach man where he is. He obtains for the fallen sons and daughters of Adam that strength which it is impossible for them to gain for themselves, that in his name they may overcome the temptations of Satan. (RH 8/18/74)
This quote brings out a number of the points we've been discussing. Christ obtained a victory for fallen man that fallen man could not obtain by reaching us where we are, by taking our nature. It is only by taking fallen man's nature that Christ could reach us where we are; it is only in this we that Christ could make it possible for us to overcome.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/16/05 03:29 PM
Guys,
That Christ should have overcome by the power of the Father and the Spirit is no problem to me. I’m just sharing some passages with you that are intriguing to me, in which Ellen White seems to be speaking of His own divinity, like the following, for instance:
"In Christ, divinity and humanity were combined.
Divinity was not degraded to humanity; divinity held its place, but humanity by being united to divinity, withstood the fiercest test of temptation in the wilderness."--Ibid., Feb. 18, 1890. {7ABC 445.1}
She begins by referring to Christ’s own divinity – this seems clear. Wouldn’t it be strange if she proceeded to talk about God’s divinity without any indicative of this in the text?
Also, the quotes about the third temptation, mentioned in my post of Oct. 14 xx:26 PM.
What about the last quote you mentioned, Tom?
“Because man fallen could not overcome Satan with his human strength, Christ came from the royal courts of Heaven to help him
with his human and divine strength combined.... he humbled himself to take man's nature, that,
with his divine power combined with the human, he might reach man where he is.”
Anyway.
quote:
Christ came in our flesh in order that we, fallen man in sinful flesh, could overcome. Christ could not give victory to us in our flesh unless He took the very same flesh in which we are to be victorious.
Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh. He came in our flesh in the physical sense, not in the fleshly mind, which constitutes what the Bible calls “flesh”. The problem of sin in human beings is not in the body, but in the carnal mind with which we are born.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/17/05 06:11 AM
Rosangela, I agree. The quotes you posted do say that Jesus combined His divinity and humanity and overcame temptations. I do not know what to make of it, except to say that the overwhelming weight of evidence supports the idea that Jesus trusted in the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome as a man, not as a God.
DA 664
Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess [not gradually accumulate], if they will be in subjection to God as He was. {DA 664.4}
Regarding the sinful flesh Jesus inherited when He became a human being, Sister White made the following observation:
AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}
Do you believe Jesus inherited the sinful flesh nature Sister White described above? That is, a fallen nature that produces corrupt thoughts, unholy lusts and affections, and animal passions and propensities?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/17/05 06:15 AM
Regarding Christ's divinity and humanity, or course Christ combined His divinity with our humanity. There's nothing else He could do.
It has already been established that Christ did not obtain victory over temptation or power to obey the law by His own divinity. Correct? If He did, then He could not have disproved Satan's claims that the sons and daughters of God could not keep the law of God. If He used any power in His battle with Satan that we do not have, then Satan would have made capital of that; Satan's claims would not have been disproven. This has alread been discussed, and I take it these points have been demonstrated, unless I hear otherwise.
Regarding Christ's taking our flesh, it is true that Christ took the
likeness of sinful flesh, and not the unlikeness. To see how the word "likeness" is used in the Greek, consider the following:
quote:
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (Phil. 2:5-8)
Now was Christ only "like" a man, or was He actually a man? Of course He was a man. So why does the text say He was made in the "likeness" of man? Because while Christ was a man, that is not all He was. Christ was by nature divine. Christ was also sinless, and this respect different from every other man. So as to not give a wrong impression, Paul carefully uses the word "likeness", but this word "likeness" makes clear that Christ was actually man. In precisely the same way, in saying that Christ took the "likeness" of sinful flesh, Paul asserts that Christ partook of the very same flesh we have, which is what Ellen White and all her SDA contermporaries taught.
For example, this is from a sermon of W. W. Prescott:
quote:
"So you see that what the Scripture states very plainly is that Jesus Christ had exactly the same flesh that we bear—flesh of sin, flesh in which we sin; flesh, however, in which He did not sin. But He bore our sins in that flesh of sin. And what flesh could He take but the flesh of the time? Not only that, but it was the very flesh He designed to take; because, you see, the problem was to help man out of the difficulty into which he had fallen, and man is a free moral agent. He must be helped as a free moral agent. Christ's work must be, not to destroy him, not to create a new race, but...to recreate man, to.. restore him in the image of God."—W. W. Prescott, Bible Echo, January 6, 1896.
Ellen White heard this sermon, and said of it:
quote:
In the evening Professor Prescott gave a most valuable lesson, precious as gold. The tent was full, and many stood outside. All seemed to be fascinated with the word, as he presented the truth in lines so new to those not of our faith. Truth was separated from error, and made, by the divine Spirit, to shine like precious jewels. (RH 1/7/96)
Many more statements could be produced by colleagues of Ellen White, as well as statements by herself, showing that she, and all other SDA's who wrote on the subject, had the same understanding on the issue, which is just what Prescott presented.
This is already a long post, so I'll end it here, and consider separately the question of why EGW brings out the importance of Christ's uniting divinity and humanity.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/17/05 06:30 AM
To consider the importance of Christ's uniting His divinity with our humanity, let us consider what the purpose of His ministry was:
quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)
There's also the well known statement (which I need to learn well enough to find some time) saying that had the Father come and Christ stayed in heaven, the history of Christ's life would have been unchanged.
Given that the whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal the character of His Father, it makes sense, IMO, to speak of His combining divinity with humanity. The divinity being spoken of is not in terms of His divine power (as this would have given Him an advnatage over us in terms of resisting temptation and keeping the law, which would not have disproven Satan's claims) but in terms of His character.
One other point is that Christ's divinity was the same as His Father's. So the terms "His divinity" and the Father's divinity could be used interchangeably, as Christ and the Father are one.
This is how I understand these statements, at any rate.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/17/05 07:54 PM
Rosangela, I found this interesting quote. It says that man was radically different before and after he sinned.
GC 505
God declares: "I will put enmity." This enmity is not naturally entertained. When man transgressed the divine law, his nature became evil, and he was in harmony, and not at variance, with Satan. There exists naturally no enmity between sinful man and the originator of sin. Both became evil through apostasy. The apostate is never at rest, except as he obtains sympathy and support by inducing others to follow his example. For this reason fallen angels and wicked men unite in desperate companionship. Had not God specially interposed, Satan and man would have entered into an alliance against Heaven; and instead of cherishing enmity against Satan, the whole human family would have been united in opposition to God. {GC 505.2}
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/19/05 06:17 AM
Yes, Mike, but this describes the natural, pre-conversion state of man.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/18/05 07:20 PM
quote:
Do you believe Jesus inherited the sinful flesh nature Sister White described above? That is, a fallen nature that produces corrupt thoughts, unholy lusts and affections, and animal passions and propensities?
Jesus inherited a body like ours. The problem is that I don’t see the body as producing sinful thoughts, lusts and affections, or sinful passions and propensities, but I see the mind as expressing its sinful thoughts, lusts and affections, and passions and propensities, through the body. In other words, the origin of sin is not the body, but the mind.
“The mind and the soul find expression through the body” {RC 137.2}
“The mind is the capital of the body.” {TSDF 40.3}
“The brain is the capital of the body, the seat of all the nervous forces and of mental action. The nerves proceeding from the brain control the body. By the brain nerves, mental impressions are conveyed to all the nerves of the body as by telegraph wires, and they control the vital action of every part of the system. All the organs of motion are governed by the communications they receive from the brain.”--3T 69 (1872).
”The brain nerves which communicate with the entire system are the only medium through which Heaven can communicate to man and affect his inmost life.”--2T 347 (1870). {1MCP 73.1}
The lower passions have their seat in the body because they are produced by the mind, and the mind is a function of the brain, which in its turn is an organ of the body.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/18/05 07:34 PM
This is from RH 4/18/99 by A.T. Jones. This treats the relation between the mind and the flesh.
There is a serious and very bothersome mistake which is made by many persons.
That mistake is made in thinking that when they are converted their old sinful flesh is blotted out.
In other words, they make the mistake of thinking that they are to be delivered form the flesh by having it taken away from them altogether.
Then when they find that this is not so, when they find that the same old flesh, with its inclinations, its besetments, and its enticements is still there, they are not prepared for it and so become discouraged and are ready to think that they never were converted at all.
And yet, if they would think a little, they ought to be able to see that that is all a mistake. Did you not have exactly the same body after you were converted that you had before? Was not that body composed of exactly the same material--the same flesh and bones and blood--after you were converted as that of which it was composed before? To these questions everybody will promptly say Yes. And plainly that is the truth.
And now there are further questions: Was not that flesh also of exactly the same quality as before? Was it not still human flesh, natural flesh, as certainly as it was before? To this also everybody will say Yes.
Then also a still further question: It being the same flesh and of the same quality--it still being human flesh, natural flesh--is it not also still just as certainly sinful flesh as it was before?
Just here is where creeps in the mistake of these many persons. To this last question they are inclined to think that the answer should be "No," when it must be only a decided "Yes." And this decided "Yes" must be maintained so long as we continue in this natural body.
And when it is decided and constantly maintained that the flesh of the converted person is still sinful flesh and only sinful flesh, he is so thoroughly convinced that in his flesh dwells no good thing that he will never allow a shadow of confidence in the flesh. And this being so, his sole dependence is upon something other than the flesh, even upon the Holy Spirit of God. His source of strength and hope is altogether exclusive of the flesh, even in Jesus Christ only. And being everlastingly watchful, suspicious, and thoroughly distrustful of the flesh, he never can expect any good thing from that source, and so is prepared by the power of God to beat back and crush down without mercy every impulse or suggestion that may arise from it, and so does not fail, does not become discouraged, but goes on from victory to victory and from strength to strength.
Conversion, then, you see, does not put new flesh upon the old spirit but a new Spirit within the old flesh. It does not propose to bring new flesh to the old mind, but a new mind to the old flesh. Deliverance and victory are not gained by having the human nature taken away, but by receiving the divine nature to subdue and have dominion over the human--not by the taking away of the sinful flesh, but by the sending in of the sinless Spirit to conquer and condemn sin in the flesh.
The Scripture does not say, Let this flesh be upon you which was also upon Christ, but it does say, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." Phil. 2:5.
The Scripture does not say, Be ye transformed by the renewing of your flesh, but it does say, "Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind." Rom. 12:2. We shall be translated by the renewing of our flesh, but we must be transformed by the renewing of our minds.
The Lord Jesus took the same flesh and blood, the same human nature, that we have, flesh just like our sinful flesh, and because of sin, and by the power of the Spirit of God through the divine mind that was in Him, "condemned sin in the flesh." Rom. 8:3. And therein is our deliverance (Rom. 7:25); therein is our victory. "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." "A new heart will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you."
Do not be discouraged at sight of sinfulness in the flesh. It is only the light of the Spirit of God, and by the discernment of the mind of Christ, that you can see so much sinfulness in your flesh, and the more sinfulness you see in your flesh, the more of the Spirit of God you certainly have. This is a sure test. Then when you see sinfulness abundant in you, thank the Lord that you have so much of the Spirit of God that you can see so much of the sinfulness and know of a surety that when sinfulness abounds, grace much more abounds in order that "as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/19/05 03:37 AM
What is the origin of sin? Hormones?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/19/05 07:24 AM
That's an odd question. The origin of sin was Lucifer/Satan. Unbelief is the root of all sin.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/19/05 03:00 PM
No, Tom, I should have asked what leads the person to the sinful act. I ask this because of the position which says that sin is in the flesh, and that when Christ changes our body at His coming we will no longer sin because we will no longer be in a sinful flesh. So, what exactly in the body leads the person to sin?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/19/05 05:44 PM
The faculties of our body produce innocent and legitimate needs (i.e., appetites and passions) in the form of electrical impulses. Our sinful flesh nature, which resides within our body, intercepts and turns them into temptations, that is, unholy suggestions in the form of conscious thoughts and feelings.
Do you agree, Rosangela, that our bodily organs produce innocent, legitimate needs (i.e., hunger, thirst, joy, etc). And, do you agree that our sinful flesh nature perverts them and turns them into unholy suggestions?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/20/05 12:52 AM
From the A. T. Jones article:
quote:
In other words, they make the mistake of thinking that they are to be delivered form the flesh by having it taken away from them altogether.
Then when they find that this is not so, when they find that the same old flesh, with its inclinations, its besetments, and its enticements is still there, they are not prepared for it and so become discouraged and are ready to think that they never were converted at all.
This seems to me a good way of putting what the flesh does.
James writes:
quote:
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (James 1:13-15)
I don't know if these quotes answer your question or not, Rosangela. By way of summary, I would say that the flesh contributes to our temptations, so in a sense could be seen as leading us into sin, but the mind (or spirit or heart or higher powers of the mind or will, depending on preference) makes the decision as to whether temptation will be yielded to or not.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/21/05 12:39 AM
Let’s analyze, for instance, the temptation to smoke. After you became dependent on nicotine, of course your body plays a role in the temptation. But what role could your body play in the temptation to start smoking?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/21/05 06:32 AM
I don't know about the genetic disposition towards smoking, but if you switch the example from smoking to alcohol, there are genetic dispositions to alcohol which are passed genetically. It wouldn't surprise me if the same thing were true for smoking. Maybe somebody here knows the results of studies on this.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/21/05 12:03 PM
quote:
I ask this because of the position which says that sin is in the flesh, and that when Christ changes our body at His coming we will no longer sin because we will no longer be in a sinful flesh.
Is this what is considered to be true?
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/21/05 01:30 PM
John,
This is what most people say. Mike and Tom, if I understood correctly, share this view.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/21/05 01:57 PM
Tom,
Even if in some there is a genetic predisposition, this clearly isn't the cause in all cases. Many times people start smoking just because of peer pressure.
Besides, we not only inherit, but also acquire, tendencies to evil.
"No longer let any evil influence or propensity, natural or acquired, lead you to subordinate the claims of future, eternal interests to the common affairs of this life. No man can serve two masters whose interests are not in harmony" (UL 313).
"Ask Him to give you the gentleness of Christ; then you will be true to your duty, true to your position of trust, and true to God, a faithful steward, overcoming natural and acquired tendencies to evil" (TM 263)
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/21/05 03:30 PM
quote:
This is what most people say. Mike and Tom, if I understood correctly, share this view.
I can see that Mike has expressed thoughts in that line, but I do not think Tom thinks that.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/21/05 09:35 PM
quote:
I ask this because of the position which says that sin is in the flesh, and that when Christ changes our body at His coming we will no longer sin because we will no longer be in a sinful flesh.
Speaking for myself, I don't think I've written anything even remotely like this. I have stated that we are tempted by the flesh. We cannot sin deliberately except by the consent of the will.
The 144,000 will overcome sin in sinful flesh, just as Christ did. Hence overcoming sin is not dependent upon our having sinless flesh. What will change when our flesh is changed is how we are tempted (there won't be any temptation).
The A. T. Jones article expresses the relationship between the flesh and the mind very clearly, I think. I agree with what A. T. Jones wrote.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/21/05 09:43 PM
quote:
Even if in some there is a genetic predisposition, this clearly isn't the cause in all cases. Many times people start smoking just because of peer pressure.
Besides, we not only inherit, but also acquire, tendencies to evil.
This is correct. It should be clear that Christ had to have both inherited and acquired tendencies to evil in order to be tempted in all points as we are. And so He did. He had our acquired tendencies to evil by imputation, and our inherited tendencies to evil by taking our nature after 4,000 years of sin.
In the description of Christ's battle in the wilderness, the SOP makes clear that it was the imputed sin of the world (our acquired tendencies to evil) which made Christ's temptations so difficult. And this corresponds exactly with our experience. To use the example of smoking, what makes smoking a difficult temptation is not the inherited tendencies, but the acquired tendencies. One might be tempted to start smoking by peer pressure, or curiousity, or whatever, but the strength of these temptations is nothing compared to the strenght of the temptations upon the smoker to repeat doing what he has done before so many times. This is how it is with us. Our most difficult temptations are those which we have succumbed to so many time. It is *these* temptations which Christ had to overcome in order to give us victory.
The SOP makes clear that Christ felt the strength of our appetite, an appetite which includes acquired, or cultivated, tendencies as well as inherited ones. It is only by virtue of the fact that Christ overcame *our* temptations that we can have victory. We cannot do something which Christ has not done. He opened the door; we walk through the door by faith.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/21/05 10:42 PM
All this is OK, but what does the body have to do with starting smoking?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/21/05 10:50 PM
I don't know if "body" is a good term to use, as that may imply the brain is not involved, which it certainly is. What we're dealing with is that which can be passed genetically. We are passed tendencies to be envious, to smoke, whatever. Out temptations include these tendencies which are passed genetically. Christ in taking our nature also had to deal with these genetically passed tendencies.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/21/05 11:00 PM
Tom,
You can't separate the mind from the brain. And acquired tendencies are not genetic.
About the other subject. Apart from the last generation, few Christians have completely overcome sin. Then I assume they will no longer sin in heaven because they will no longer be tempted, and you claim that they can no longer tempted because they are no longer in the flesh. And this is equivalent to what I said - or so it seems to me, in my practical way of seeing things - that they will no longer sin because they are no longer in the flesh.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/22/05 02:54 AM
quote:
You can't separate the mind from the brain. And acquired tendencies are not genetic.
The mind must be separated from the brain conceptually. The brain is the physical part. The mind deals with mental functions, not physical ones.
quote:
The mind is the term most commonly used to describe the higher functions of the human brain, particularly those of which humans are subjectively conscious, such as personality, thought, reason, memory, intelligence and emotion. Although other species of animals share some of these mental capacities, the term is usually used only in relation to humans.
quote:
(The brain is) that part of the central nervous system that includes all the higher nervous centers; enclosed within the skull; continuous with the spinal cord.
Acquired tendencies are not genetic. That is correct. The Spirit of Prophecy often refers to them as "cultivated."
quote:
About the other subject. Apart from the last generation, few Christians have completely overcome sin.
In the sense that the 144,000 will, none have. This is a corporate work, dependent upon light, and no other generation has the light the 144,000 have. In every generation are those who have lived up to light they had, Daniels of their time.
quote:
Then I assume they will no longer sin in heaven because they will no longer be tempted, and you claim that they can no longer tempted because they are no longer in the flesh. And this is equivalent to what I said - or so it seems to me, in my practical way of seeing things - that they will no longer sin because they are no longer in the flesh.
The reason no one will sin in heaven is because they do not want to. All beings there live by the principles of God's governement, which are the principles of unselfish love. Satan has had his opportunity to tempt, and each being in heaven has given their answer -- No!! If Satan were allowed to tempt, the answer would not change, just like if Satan, or those who have chosen to follow his principles, were allowed to live, they would not change their mind.
The important thing that will have happened between now and heaven is that humanity will have clearly seen the truth about God's character, which is that He is just like Jesus Christ. Every person will make a decision as to whether they want to spend eternity with Him or not. Whosoever will may come.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/23/05 01:01 AM
quote:
The mind must be separated from the brain conceptually.
OK, but if I got it correctly, what you are saying is that the first phase of temptation (related to sinful suggestions) has to do only with the brain, and the second phase (making the decision) has to do with the mind. Or have I got it wrong? Please clarify.
quote:
The reason no one will sin in heaven is because they do not want to.
So sinning has to do with the flesh here but it won’t have to do with the flesh there?
quote:
The important thing that will have happened between now and heaven is that humanity will have clearly seen the truth about God's character
So until the moment of their death Christians didn’t see this truth clearly, but the moment they resurrect they will see it clearly?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/23/05 05:23 AM
quote:
I ask this because of the position which says that sin is in the flesh, and that when Christ changes our body at His coming we will no longer sin because we will no longer be in a sinful flesh.
Mike and Tom, if I understood correctly, share this view.
Just to clarify. I believe sin is in the flesh and in the mind of the old man. When we’re born again the sins in our old man mind are crucified and buried. However, sin remains in our flesh. That is, our flesh continues to tempt us with unholy suggestions. When Jesus returns and rewards us with a sinless body and nature, we will no longer be tempted from within. Or from without, for that matter, because the devil will be dead and gone.
The reason we will not sin in heaven or the New Earth is not because we are incapable of sinning, but because we will not choose to sin. This same state is available to us now, in spite of being burdened with a fallen nature that constantly wants us to meet our innocent and legitimate needs in a sinful manner. We do not, and cannot, commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus.
1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/23/05 10:20 AM
The mind must be separated from the brain conceptually.OK, but if I got it correctly, what you are saying is that the first phase of temptation (related to sinful suggestions) has to do only with the brain, and the second phase (making the decision) has to do with the mind. Or have I got it wrong? Please clarify.
I didn't address this question.The reason no one will sin in heaven is because they do not want to.So sinning has to do with the flesh here but it won’t have to do with the flesh there?
Why do you think I think sinning has to do with the flesh? I'm not understanding the confusion here. Did you read the A. T. Jones article? That seems very clear to me. I agree with what he wrote.The important thing that will have happened between now and heaven is that humanity will have clearly seen the truth about God's character.So until the moment of their death Christians didn’t see this truth clearly, but the moment they resurrect they will see it clearly?
I don't understand how you're arriving at this conclusion. Clearly it's based on what I wrote, but I don't see how. The ones I was referring to who need to see God's character are the wicked, not Christians.
I had this in mind:
quote:
It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth.
This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him." Isa. 40:9,10.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. (COL 415)
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/23/05 03:04 PM
quote:
OK, but if I got it correctly, what you are saying is that the first phase of temptation (related to sinful suggestions) has to do only with the brain, and the second phase (making the decision) has to do with the mind. Or have I got it wrong? Please clarify.
I didn't address this question.
Tom, this is what you said:
quote:
By way of summary, I would say that the flesh contributes to our temptations, so in a sense could be seen as leading us into sin, but the mind (or spirit or heart or higher powers of the mind or will, depending on preference) makes the decision as to whether temptation will be yielded to or not.
What I said was that, in a temptation to start smoking, or to show pride, envy or hatred, the mind is related to it, not the body. (To make our discussion easier, let’s suppose that the person doesn’t have a genetic predisposition to any of these things.)
Then you replied:
quote:
I don't know if "body" is a good term to use, as that may imply the brain is not involved, which it certainly is.
You mentioned the brain. By this you mean the mind? This is the part I didn’t understand.
My position is that the word “flesh” involves not only the body but the mind. In fact, some sins don’t have to do with the body at all. Do you agree or disagree?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/23/05 07:05 PM
quote:
My position is that the word “flesh” involves not only the body but the mind. In fact, some sins don’t have to do with the body at all. Do you agree or disagree?
Rosangela, does your definition of the flesh agree with this one:
AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}
She says, "The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it." What do you think she means by lower passions? Do they originate in the mind or the body?
And, what about the "affections and lusts"? Do they, according to this insight, originate in the mind or the body?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/23/05 10:08 PM
You mentioned the brain. By this you mean the mind? This is the part I didn’t understand.
No, I meant the brain. The brain is a part of the body. The mind is an orthogonal concept.
My position is that the word “flesh” involves not only the body but the mind. In fact, some sins don’t have to do with the body at all. Do you agree or disagree?
I think the flesh involves that which is passed genetically. Christ took our flesh, but He had the mind of Christ. If our flesh encompassed the mind, then Christ's mind would have been impacted. But Christ's mind was not impacted, even though He took our flesh. So it seems to me there must be a distinction between the flesh and the mind. Otherwise how would we explain the fact that Christ partook of our flesh, yet not of our mind?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/25/05 06:22 AM
Here she describes the relationship between mind and body. In this case, body refers to tissue organs. But, as indicated in the AH 127, 128 quote above, the "flesh" is where our unholy carnal thoughts and affections and lusts originate.
FE 20, 21
To become acquainted with the wonderful human organism, the bones, muscles, stomach, liver, bowels, heart, and pores of the skin, and to understand the dependence of one organ upon another for the healthful action of all, is a study in which most mothers take no interest. They know nothing of the influence of the body upon mind, and of the mind upon the body. The mind, which allies finite to the infinite, they do not seem to understand. Every organ of the body was made to be servant to the mind. The mind is the capital of the body. Children are allowed to eat flesh-meats, spices, butter, cheese, pork, rich pastry, and condiments generally. They are also allowed to eat irregularly and between meals of unhealthful food. These things do their work of deranging the stomach, exciting the nerves of unnatural action, and enfeebling the intellect. Parents do not realize that they are sowing the seed which will bring forth disease and death. {FE 20.2}
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/25/05 04:15 PM
Tom,
So, to you, temptations originate in the brain, not in the mind? In the temptation to start smoking (without any genetic predisposition), peer pressure or curiosity are related to the brain, not to the mind?
Mike,
A parallel text says,
"Our impulses and passions have their seat in the body" {RH, December 1, 1896 par. 7}
So “flesh” constitutes all our impulses and passions, our natural inclinations. Some of these inclinations are related to the body but some have to do with the mind, such as an inclination/impulse to be proud, envious, etc.
The text says that the words, "flesh", or "fleshly lusts" or "carnal lusts", embrace the lower, corrupt nature.
“That which is pleasing to the natural heart and carnal mind is cherished. If the lust of the flesh had been rooted out of their hearts, they would not be so weak.”{CH 570.3}
Ellen White says here that the lust of the flesh must be rooted out of the heart, meaning not the physical organ which pumps the blood, but the mind.
She still says,
“’He that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption.’ What is it to sow to the flesh?--It is to follow the desires and inclinations of our own natural hearts. Whatever may be our profession, if we are serving self instead of God, we are sowing to the flesh.” {RH, May 5, 1891 par. 2}
She doesn’t say the desires and inclinations of our bodies, but of our hearts, that is, minds (because the mind is the capital of the body).
She still says,
“If we are overcomers at last, there are battles for us to fight, and we will find that the flesh warreth against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. It is for us to say which will triumph. Our carnal hearts will not submit to God's will, but refuse to obey.” {2SAT 34.5}
So, I see “flesh” as the “carnal mind” or “carnal nature” or “carnal heart”.
When we are converted, this old nature, or mind, is crucified. However, it will constantly try to reassert itself:
“It is essential to live by every word of God, else our old nature will constantly reassert itself.” {RH, October 12, 1897 par. 7}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/25/05 05:54 PM
quote:
So, I see “flesh” as the “carnal mind” or “carnal nature” or “carnal heart”.
When we are converted, this old nature, or mind, is crucified. However, it will constantly try to reassert itself:
Amen! That's exactly what I've been trying to say all along. The mind of the old man is crucified when we're born again. It is dead and gone. In its place Jesus implants the mind of the new man, whcih comes complete with all the righteous attributes of God's character, all the fruits of the Spirit.
And as we abide in Jesus and partake of the divine nature we are empowered to recognize and resist the sinful suggestions that bombard us from within and without, but than more this, it also empowers us to mature in the fruits of the Spirit, to become more and more like Jesus.
So, what happens to our sinful flesh nature after we're born again (the title of this thread)? It remains to tempt us, more or less, until the day Jesus replaces it with a sinless nature, one that doesn't tempt us from within.
Do you agree?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/26/05 02:22 AM
quote:
Tom,
So, to you, temptations originate in the brain, not in the mind? In the temptation to start smoking (without any genetic predisposition), peer pressure or curiosity are related to the brain, not to the mind?
There's different forms of temptation. We may be tempted by what we perceive in our senses, or Satan or one of his confederates may introduce an unholy thought to us, or we may be tempted without any external help, from our own desires, as James puts it. Regardless of how we are tempted, we may take solace in that Christ was tempted in all points as we are.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/26/05 02:25 AM
FWIW, I don't see the flesh as the same thing as the "carnal mind", "carnal nature" or "carnal heart". The flesh has to do with that which is passed genetically, and I don't see how a carnal mind can be passed genetically.
We can say of Christ that He partook of our flesh, but Christ did not have a carnal mind, heart, or nature.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/26/05 03:32 PM
quote:
I don't see how a carnal mind can be passed genetically.
You don't see it? Just look around and you will see it. Those of us who have children can see it easily. A carnal mind is a mind not subject to the law of God, but opposed to it and inclined to disobey it. I'll quote it again:
"The duty of intelligent souls is to hold to the truth, to practice virtue. We are born with a disinclination to both. It is sad to find in one's own constitution an opposition to virtues that are commendable in the sight of God, as submission, charity, sweetness of spirit, and patience that will not be provoked." {TDG 34.3}
"Because of sin, his [Adam's] posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience." {13MR 18.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/26/05 07:28 PM
We do not inherit the character that Adam developed as he reacted and responded to the unholy clamorings of his flesh. The only thing we inherit from our parents, dating all the way back to Adam, is their sinful flesh nature. The unholy traits of character they developed is passed on to us genetically in the form of sinful flesh nature - not character.
"The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts." {AH 127)
1. What is it that the flesh can do?
2. What is it the flesh cannot do?
3. Where do our lusts and affections originate?
4. What is the difference between "carnal mind" and "carnal lusts"?
1T 440
The requirements of God's word are too close for their unsanctified natures. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." If the feelings of the natural heart are not restrained and brought into subjection by the sanctifying influence of the grace of God received through the channel of faith, the thoughts of the heart are not pure and holy. The conditions of salvation brought to view in the word of God are reasonable, plain, and positive, being nothing less than perfect conformity to the will of God and purity of heart and life. We must crucify self with the lusts thereof. We must cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. {1T 440.1}
CH 570
Vainglory, the fashion of the world, the desire of the eye, and the lust of the flesh, are connected with the fall of the unfortunate. That which is pleasing to the natural heart and carnal mind is cherished. If the lust of the flesh had been rooted out of their hearts, they would not be so weak. {CH 570.3}
2T 694
Those who possess the carnal mind cannot comprehend the sacred force of vital truth upon which their salvation depends, because they cherish pride of heart, love of the world, love of ease, selfishness, covetousness, envy, jealousy, lust, hatred, and every evil. If they would overcome these they might be partakers of the divine nature. {2T 694.1}
AH 330, 331
The mind of a man or woman does not come down in a moment from purity and holiness to depravity, corruption, and crime. It takes time to transform the human to the divine, or to degrade those formed in the image of God to the brutal or the satanic. By beholding we become changed. Though formed in the image of his Maker, man can so educate his mind that sin which he once loathed will become pleasant to him. As he ceases to watch and pray, he ceases to guard the citadel, the heart, and engages in sin and crime. The mind is debased, and it is impossible to elevate it from corruption while it is being educated to enslave the moral and intellectual powers and bring them in subjection to grosser passions. Constant war against the carnal mind must be maintained; and we must be aided by the refining influence of the grace of God, which will attract the mind upward and habituate it to meditate upon pure and holy things. {AH 330.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/26/05 07:34 PM
It sounds like we are stuck with the carnal mind (i.e., sinful flesh nature) until Jesus returns and replaces it with a sinless one. The lusts and affections, which reside within our carnal mind/flesh nature, will continue to tempt us with evil thoughts and feelings until the day Jesus returns. In the meantime, we must abide in Jesus and partake of the divine nature so that He empower us to resist the our carnal mind/flesh nature.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/26/05 07:35 PM
What you quoted did not speak of the carnal mind, but rather of traits which can be passed genetically. A carnal mind is developed by exercising one's will against God's will.
Take Christ as an example. He did not have a carnal mind. But His flesh was our flesh.
quote:
The Scripture does not say, Be ye transformed by the renewing of your flesh, but it does say, "Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind." Rom. 12:2. We shall be translated by the renewing of our flesh, but we must be transformed by the renewing of our minds.
The Lord Jesus took the same flesh and blood, the same human nature, that we have, flesh just like our sinful flesh, and because of sin, and by the power of the Spirit of God through the divine mind that was in Him, "condemned sin in the flesh." Rom. 8:3. And therein is our deliverance (Rom. 7:25); therein is our victory. "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." "A new heart will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you."
This is from the last part of the A. T. Jones article.
From the Spirit of Prophecy:
quote:
There were in him (unfallen Adam) no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh." (BE 9/3/00)
Christ had the same corrupt principles and tendencies to evil in His flesh as we do, unlike unfallen Adam. However, His mind never was tainted by the tendencies of the flesh because He never consented to those temptations. He condemned sin in the flesh by holding it at bay, by perfect subjection to His Father's will.
Again, from the A. T. Jones article:
quote:
Conversion, then, you see, does not put new flesh upon the old spirit but a new Spirit within the old flesh. It does not propose to bring new flesh to the old mind, but a new mind to the old flesh. Deliverance and victory are not gained by having the human nature taken away, but by receiving the divine nature to subdue and have dominion over the human--not by the taking away of the sinful flesh, but by the sending in of the sinless Spirit to conquer and condemn sin in the flesh.
The Scripture does not say, Let this flesh be upon you which was also upon Christ, but it does say, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." Phil. 2:5.
I found the whole A. T. Jones article to be very clear. Do you disagree?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/26/05 08:06 PM
MM: You and I are seeing this pretty much the same, just a difference in terminology regarding the carnal mind, it seems to me. You are understanding "carnal mind" to be synonymous with "sinful nature".
This isn't a big deal to me, but I'm curious if you would be comfortable saying that Christ took our carnal mind. I would be uncomfortable saying that, even though, with your understanding of "carnal mind" and "sinful nature" being synonymns, it would mean exactly the same thing as saying, "Christ took our sinful nature" which I believe is correct, not only conceptually but as to how it should be stated.
We say things like Christ took our sin, as well as saying He took our nature, so maybe saying He took our carnal mind isn't a problem (although, it sounds funny to me). One would certainly need to make clear, as well as with the sinful nature statements, that we are not saying that Christ in any way sinned.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/27/05 03:40 PM
Mike,
Yes, the carnal mind is crucified when we are born again, but it must continue to be crucified day by day and hour by hour, because it will constantly try to reassert itself. As Ellen White says, “constant war against the carnal mind must be maintained”.
Tom,
The key element of the carnal mind is selfishness. A carnal mind is a selfish mind, and our tendencies to sin are just selfish tendencies.
"The natural, selfish mind, as it exists in its carnal state, acts without reference to God, and is evil, and only evil, continually." {ST, June 22, 1888 par. 8}
But selfishness is a satanic element, and I don’t believe Christ had a satanic element in Himself.
“When man sinned, all heaven was filled with sorrow; for through yielding to temptation, man became the enemy of God, a partaker of the satanic nature. The image of God in which he had been created was marred and distorted. The character of man was out of harmony with the character of God; for through sin man became carnal, and the carnal heart is enmity against God, is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” {ST, December 15, 1914 par. 6}
Are we born reflecting God's image? No, of course not. And why not? Because we are selfish.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/28/05 06:46 AM
The key element of the carnal mind is selfishness. A carnal mind is a selfish mind, and our tendencies to sin are just selfish tendencies.
"The natural, selfish mind, as it exists in its carnal state, acts without reference to God, and is evil, and only evil, continually." {ST, June 22, 1888 par. 8}
But selfishness is a satanic element, and I don’t believe Christ had a satanic element in Himself.
Right, Christ did not have a satanic element in Himself, just in His flesh:
quote:
Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield; for God made him pure and upright, in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh. (BE 9/3/00)
The "corrupt principles" and "tendencies to evil" were not in Christ, but in His flesh. Christ took upon His own sinless nature our sinful nature. His sinless nature was selfless. He crucified our flesh by subjecting it at all times to the will of the Father, even unto death, the death of the cross.
Christ partook of the same flesh we do, but His mind was not contaminated by our flesh, because Christ never consented to sin. Because Christ's mind was always subject to God's will, Christ received no pollution by accepting the results, like the following:
quote:
The work of Christ in cleansing the leper from his terrible disease is an illustration of His work in cleansing the soul from sin. The man who came to Jesus was "full of leprosy." Its deadly poison permeated his whole body. The disciples sought to prevent their Master from touching him; for he who touched a leper became himself unclean. But in laying His hand upon the leper, Jesus received no defilement. His touch imparted life-giving power. The leprosy was cleansed. Thus it is with the leprosy of sin,--deep-rooted, deadly, and impossible to be cleansed by human power. "The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrefying sores." Isa. 1:5, 6. But Jesus, coming to dwell in humanity, receives no pollution.(DA 266)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/28/05 06:51 AM
I posted the questions above to demonstrate that sinful flesh nature has, as it were, a mind of its own - the carnal mind. Before we are born again we are the slaves of sin, we naturally act out the unholy suggestions produced by our sinful flesh nature, our carnal mind.
But when we are born again Jesus implants within us the mind of the new man, which enables us to maintain a constant warfare against the unholy suggestions generated and communicated as conscious thoughts and feelings by our carnal mind/sinful flesh nature.
Although even after we are born again our carnal mind/sinful flesh nature continues to bombard our new man mind with unholy suggestions we are not, however, accountable or guilty for their initial existence. They are nothing more than temptations.
Jesus was born, as it were, born again. He started off like a born again believer. That is, He was not born in slavery to His sinful flesh nature/carnal mind. Therefore, He never committed a sin, or developed an unholy inherited trait of character. From the womb to the tomb He successfully resisted the unholy suggestions produced by His fallen flesh nature/carnal mind.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/27/05 07:03 PM
So MM, you are stating that Christ received sinful suggestions from His carnal mind?
One again, conceptually I agree with what you are saying, but this language I find a bit troubling.
It's a difficult subject to get the language just right.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/27/05 07:19 PM
I agree. The idea that Jesus became "sin for us" is equally as troubling - but it is the truth that sets us free. Thank you Jesus!
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/27/05 08:26 PM
Tom,
1) Then neither do we have a satanic element in ourselves, just in our flesh.
quote:
The "corrupt principles" and "tendencies to evil" were... in His flesh
"Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption." {13MR 19.1}
There was no taint of corruption or inclination to corruption in Christ.
2) How could Christ have a carnal mind and still reflect the image of God perfectly?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/27/05 09:13 PM
1) Then neither do we have a satanic element in ourselves, just in our flesh.
The "corrupt principles" and "tendencies to evil" were... in His flesh
"Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption." {13MR 19.1}
There was no taint of corruption or inclination to corruption in Christ.
This is why I have emphasized that there were no corrupt principles in Christ, nor tendencies to evil in Him. Only, as she pointed out, in His flesh (not in Him).
2) How could Christ have a carnal mind and still reflect the image of God perfectly?
This question should be addressed to Mike. I have not said that Christ had a carnal mind. I'm not comfortable with this language.
I would say that Christ took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, or equivalently, that He accepted the workings of the great law of heredity, or equivlanently, that He partook of our flesh, or equivalently, that genetically He was a human being like other human beings. It seems to me that "carnal mind" has a different connotation, which implies actual participation in sin, which would follow under the guidelines of the quote from the Baker letter you cited.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/27/05 09:46 PM
quote:
This is why I have emphasized that there were no corrupt principles in Christ, nor tendencies to evil in Him. Only, as she pointed out, in His flesh (not in Him).
Then the same dichotomy could be applied to born-again Christians. There is no corrupt principles in them, just in their flesh. Does this make any sense?
quote:
It seems to me that "carnal mind" has a different connotation, which implies actual participation in sin, which would follow under the guidelines of the quote from the Baker letter you cited.
The Baker letter was referring to Christ's human nature, and if EGW says that there was to taint of corruption or inclination to corruption in Christ, she was referring to His humanity - every part of it.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/27/05 09:58 PM
This is why I have emphasized that there were no corrupt principles in Christ, nor tendencies to evil in Him. Only, as she pointed out, in His flesh (not in Him).
Then the same dichotomy could be applied to born-again Christians. There is no corrupt principles in them, just in their flesh. Does this make any sense?
It would make sense for the 144,000.
It seems to me that "carnal mind" has a different connotation, which implies actual participation in sin, which would follow under the guidelines of the quote from the Baker letter you cited.
The Baker letter was referring to Christ's human nature, and if EGW says that there was to taint of corruption or inclination to corruption in Christ, she was referring to His humanity - every part of it.
What the Baker letter is referring to as a matter of controversy. Ellen White suggested we not use her personal correspondence in resolving matters like this, but instead stick to her published works. Perhaps we would do well to follow her counsel on how to use her writings.
Also the interpretation you are suggesting seems to me to contradict the Bible Echo reference I quoted, which constrasts unfallen Adam to Christ as to "corrupt principles" and "tendencies to evil".
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/28/05 05:07 PM
Tom,
In her will, Ellen White herself authorized "the printing of compilations from my manuscripts." Also, the words of the Baker letter are very clear, and I see nothing difficult to understand in them.
quote:
Also the interpretation you are suggesting seems to me to contradict the Bible Echo reference I quoted, which constrasts unfallen Adam to Christ as to "corrupt principles" and "tendencies to evil".
It is a pity you are focusing just in part of the text.
“Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield; for God made him pure and upright, in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore ‘the likeness of sinful flesh.’ In the wilderness, weakened physically by a fast of forty days, He met the adversary. His dignity was questioned, His authority disputed, His allegiance to His Father assailed by the fallen foe.” {BEcho, September 3, 1900 par. 10}
We have already discussed this, so I’ll not go into detail again, but it is easy to see that if the contrast involves corrupt principles and tendencies to evil, it also involves indwelling sin. It’s also easy to see that “corrupt principles” and “tendencies to evil” are an expansion of what constitutes “indwelling sin”. However, the true contrast lies in the fact that Christ was “weakened physically by a fast of forty days, ... His authority [was] disputed, His allegiance to His Father assailed by the fallen foe.”
Ellen White says about the corruption of believers:
“The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God.” {1SM 344.2}
Attributing any kind of corruption to Christ is unthinkable to me.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/28/05 08:13 PM
Tom,
In her will, Ellen White herself authorized "the printing of compilations from my manuscripts." Also, the words of the Baker letter are very clear, and I see nothing difficult to understand in them.
Old Tom:Also the interpretation you are suggesting seems to me to contradict the Bible Echo reference I quoted, which constrasts unfallen Adam to Christ as to "corrupt principles" and "tendencies to evil".
The Baker letter was a personal letter, not a manuscript. What Baker was teaching is debated. One suggestion is he was teaching adoptionism, a teaching that Christ actually committed sin, and there looks to be merit in this idea. For example, there is the statement:
"He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity." Some have understood this to mean that Christ did not take our sinful nature, because our sinful nature has evil propensities, and it says here Christ didn't have an evil propensity. However, there are several reason why this interpretation is suspect. First of all, Ellen White in her public works many times affirmed that Christ did take our sinful nature, so this interpretation would cause her to go back on what she had written public. Secondly, the statement says "not for one moment" which would refer to something transitory (such as the commission of sin), not something static (such as nature). For example, one would not say, "Not for one moment were his eyes blue" if one were referring to one's natural eye color, but could if one were referring to the type of contact lenses one used. How one should interpret the phrase "Christ didn't have an evil propensity" is debated. This is just one example of the amiguities involved.
The fact of the matter is that no on knows what Baker was actually teaching, because there's no record of that. There's just a private letter responding to something which EGW found to be at fault. Without knowing what the actual issue is, complicates correctly interpreting her response, which is probably why she counseled that we refer to her published works in knowing what her thoughts are, rather than private letters.It is a pity you are focusing just in part of the text.
This is just for convenience. I've quoted the text many times. I shouldn't have to quote the whole thing each time. quote:
“Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield; for God made him pure and upright, in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore ‘the likeness of sinful flesh.’ In the wilderness, weakened physically by a fast of forty days, He met the adversary. His dignity was questioned, His authority disputed, His allegiance to His Father assailed by the fallen foe.” {BEcho, September 3, 1900 par. 10}
We have already discussed this, so I’ll not go into detail again, but it is easy to see that if the contrast involves corrupt principles and tendencies to evil, it also involves indwelling sin.
It’s also easy to see that “corrupt principles” and “tendencies to evil” are an expansion of what constitutes “indwelling sin”.
The portion dealing with Christ cannot be dealing with indwelling sin, because Christ didn't have any. She is contrasting the lack of "corrupt principles" and "tendencies to evil" that Adam did not have with something Christ did have. "But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore the likeness of sinful flesh." It was this flesh, not Christ, which has "corrupt principles" and "tendencies to evil".
However, the true contrast lies in the fact that Christ was “weakened physically by a fast of forty days, ... His authority [was] disputed, His allegiance to His Father assailed by the fallen foe.”
This doesn't take into account the "corrupt principles" or "tendencies to evil". The contrast is "There were in him no corrupt principles, not tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to mee the temptations of Satan, He bore 'the likeness of sinful flesh.'" It's not "In Adam was no weakness or propensity to tiredness, but ... He 'bore the likeness of sinful flesh."
However, there's no need to dwell on this one statement. There are dozens of similar statements. For example:
quote:
But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life." DA p 49.
What were the results of the heredity which Christ accepted? Every sort of vice and sin. This was His ancestry.
Ellen White's contemporaries had the same view she did. For example, to counteract the Holy Flesh movement, Waggoner preached at a General Conference sesssion which EGW attended:
quote:
"We need to settle, every one of us, whether we are out of the church of Rome or not. Many have the marks yet. Do you not see that the idea that the flesh of Jesus was not like ours (because we know ours is sinful) necessarily involves the idea of the immaculate conception of the virgin Mary?
"Suppose we start with the idea that Jesus was so separate from us, so different that He did not have in His flesh anything to contend with—sinless flesh. Then you see how the Roman Catholic dogma of the immaculate conception necessarily follows. But why stop there? You must go back to her mother, and so back to Adam; and the result?—There never was a fall. Thus you see the essential identity of Roman Catholicism and Spiritualism.
"Christ was tempted in the flesh, He suffered in the flesh, but He had a mind which never consented to sin. He established the will of God in the flesh, and established that God's will may be done in any human, sinful flesh" (General Conference Bulletin, 1901, pp. 403-405, condensed).
This is the way the SDA's attacked the Holy Flesh heresy. The Holy Flesh doctrine was:
a)Christ had a sinless human nature
b)The 144,000 must perfectly overcome sin, as Christ did
c)Therefore we need to have sinless flesh, like Christ.
The response to this was to point out that we (SDA's) do not believe that Christ had sinless flesh. This is the context of Waggoner's sermon. Stephen Haskell used the same technique:
quote:
“Their point of theology in this particular respect seems to be this,” Haskell continued. “They believe that Christ took Adam’s nature before he fell; so He [Christ] took humanity as it was in the garden of Eden, and thus humanity was holy, and this is the humanity which Christ had; and now, they say, the particular time has come for us to become holy in that sense, and then we will have ‘translation faith’ and never die.” ...
"When we stated that we believed that Christ was born in fallen humanity, they would represent us as believing that Christ sinned, notwithstanding the fact that we would state our position so clearly that it would seem as though no one could misunderstand us."
W. W. Precostt preached a sermon in Avondale on the nature of Christ, entitled something like "The Word Became Flesh." Ellen White heard the sermon and praised it as "truth separated from error". The sermon presented the position that Christ had flesh identical to ours, except that Christ never committed sin.
The point is that there's no need to depend on a portion of the Bible Echo text to make the point that our denomination, including Ellen White, was teaching that Christ took our sinful flesh, because there is voluminous evidence which points in this direction.
Ellen White says about the corruption of believers:
“The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God.” {1SM 344.2}
Attributing any kind of corruption to Christ is unthinkable to me.
I agree.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/29/05 02:33 AM
quote:
The Baker letter was a personal letter, not a manuscript.
It so happens that many, if not most, of the manuscripts are personal letters.
quote:
Secondly, the statement says "not for one moment" which would refer to something transitory
Just the opposite is true. I’m not aware of any quote of Ellen White which uses “propensity” or “inclination” or “tendency” as something transitory. If you have a propensity/inclination/tendency, this refers to something that is always present with you – you must always keep it under subjection. So, if she says that not for one moment was there in Christ an evil propensity, for this to be true He couldn’t have been born with, nor could He ever had acquired, any evil propensity.
quote:
She is contrasting the lack of "corrupt principles" and "tendencies to evil" that Adam did not have with something Christ did have.
As I said in the previous time we discussed this passage, the contrast being made is not between the words "corrupt principles"/"tendencies to evil" and Christ's "likeness of sinful flesh". The contrast involves everything that is being said about Adam - he had no justifiable reason to fall, yet he fell; but Christ was in every sense in disadvantage in relation to him, yet He overcame.
This parallel passage throws further light on the text:
"In what consisted the strength of the assault made upon Adam, which caused his fall? It was not his indwelling sin; for God made Adam after His own character, pure and upright. There were no corrupt principles in the first Adam, no corrupt propensities of tendencies to evil. Adam was as faultless as the angels before God's throne. These things are inexplainable, but many things which now we cannot understand will be made plain when we shall see as we are seen, and know as we are known. What humiliation our Lord was subjected to when assailed by the powers of the prince of darkness. Was it no degradation to the spotless Son of God that His dignity should be questioned, His authority disputed, and His allegiance to His heavenly Father assailed by a fallen foe? How humiliating to Christ to have Satan show a superiority to Him. We but dimly comprehend why Christ was brought in contact with the adversary of God and man. It was in behalf of fallen humanity that the compassionate Christ was made to appear in His humiliation." {16MR 86, 87}
The true contrast is between the strength of Satan’s assault upon Adam and upon Christ. Christ was weakened, in a desert, and far from the presence of God. Satan questioned Christ’s dignity, disputed His authority, assailed His allegiance to His Father and the very purity of His principles; tried to humiliate Him in every way possible. Now compare this with the assault made upon Adam.
Another passage that helps to define what the contrast is:
"Adam had the advantage over Christ, in that when he was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing full vigor of body and mind. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of degradation. Every device that the enemy could suggest was brought against Him. It was when Christ was in a weakened condition, after His long fast of forty days, that the wisest of the fallen angels used the most enticing words at his command in an effort to compel the mind of Christ to yield to his mind." {ST, December 3, 1902}
About the heredity Christ took, the passage above mentions three things:
Physical strength;
Mental power;
Moral worth – moral worth has to do with character:
"It is moral worth that God values. A Christian character unblotted with avarice, possessing quietness, meekness, and humility, is more precious in his sight than the most fine gold, even the golden wedge of Ophir." {ST, March 22, 1883 par. 5}
"God did not value the riches of this wealthy man, because he had not true moral worth. His character was worthless." {ST, March 22, 1883 par. 9}
"Through the perfection of Christ's character, man was elevated in the scale of moral value with God." {ST, August 7, 1879 par. 8}
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/29/05 09:40 AM
Old Tom:The Baker letter was a personal letter, not a manuscript.
It so happens that many, if not most, of the manuscripts are personal letters.
"It so happens" to a native speaking American is a sarcastic phrase. I'm hoping you used this phrase ignorant of its negative connotation.
There are different definitions for manuscript. This is the one I had in mind: "the form of a literary work submitted for publication". This is the only definition which makes sense in the context of my statement. You evidently have in mind the following definition: "The original pages of an author's work, written in the author's hand or typed."
However this definition doesn't work in the context of what I stated, which is that she herself couneled that if we want to know what her thoughts are on a subject, we should consult her public works. And this is simply common sense. We have no way of knowing what the context of a private letter is, so it is easy for us to misinterpret a thought or statement. On the other hand, statements intended for public, not private, consumption are written more carefully for a larger audience to understand. Without question, if we wish to understand Ellen White's Christology, the best place to look is The Desire of Ages, a book written for the express purpose of setting forth her thoughts regarding Jesus Christ.Old Tom:Secondly, the statement says "not for one moment" which would refer to something transitory
Just the opposite is true.
How so? I gave an example of blue eyes. If I say, "not for one moment were my eyes blue" this could only make sense if I'm refering to blue contact lenses, not eyes which are naturally blue. If I were referring to my actually eye colors, I would simply say, "My eyes are not blue." Similarly if Ellen White had in mind something which Christ received by birth when she referred to "evil propensities" she would not have said, "Not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity". That just doesn't make any sense.
Here's another example. I wouldn't say, "Not for one moment did I have a cleft chin" because a cleft chin is something received by birth. I could say, "not for one moment did I have buck teeth" however, because buck teeth can be corrected orthodontically. "Not for one moment" qualifies something which is not static in nature. If it's stats, "not for one moment" doesn't make any sense to use.Old Tom:She is contrasting the lack of "corrupt principles" and "tendencies to evil" that Adam did not have with something Christ did have.
As I said in the previous time we discussed this passage, the contrast being made is not between the words "corrupt principles"/"tendencies to evil" and Christ's "likeness of sinful flesh". The contrast involves everything that is being said about Adam - he had no justifiable reason to fall, yet he fell; but Christ was in every sense in disadvantage in relation to him, yet He overcame.
I agree with your summary in the last sentence. Christ was in every sense in disadvantage in relation to Adam, including the sense of not having sinless flesh like unfallen Adam, but rather sinful flesh such as we have. Over and over again she makes the point that Christ was an example for us in overcoming temptation. Christ said for us to be of good cheer, because He had overcome the world. The world which Christ overcame was in His flesh. We can be of good cheer because Christ overcame our temptations. "Adam had the advantage over Christ, in that when he was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing full vigor of body and mind. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of degradation. Every device that the enemy could suggest was brought against Him. It was when Christ was in a weakened condition, after His long fast of forty days, that the wisest of the fallen angels used the most enticing words at his command in an effort to compel the mind of Christ to yield to his mind." {ST, December 3, 1902}
About the heredity Christ took, the passage above mentions three things:
Physical strength;
Mental power;
Moral worth – moral worth has to do with character:
"It is moral worth that God values. A Christian character unblotted with avarice, possessing quietness, meekness, and humility, is more precious in his sight than the most fine gold, even the golden wedge of Ophir." {ST, March 22, 1883 par. 5}
"God did not value the riches of this wealthy man, because he had not true moral worth. His character was worthless." {ST, March 22, 1883 par. 9}
"Through the perfection of Christ's character, man was elevated in the scale of moral value with God." {ST, August 7, 1879 par. 8}
In the statement she wrote that
quote:
Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of degradation.
The "lowest depths of degredation" does not refer to man's getting tired or hungry, but to that which sin has wraught. The "infirmities of degenerate humanity" is the same thing as our sinful nature, or sinful flesh. Only as Christ's flesh is like our could He life us up from the depths.
quote:
"Moreover the fact that Christ took upon Himself the flesh, not of a sinless being, but of sinful man, that is, that the flesh which He assumed had all the weaknesses and sinful tendencies to which fallen nature is subject, is shown by the statement that He 'was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.' David had all the tendencies of sinful human nature." Christ and His Righteousness, by E. J. Waggoner, 25-27
quote:
"For Him to be separated a single degree, or a shadow of a single degree, in any sense, from the nature of those whom He came to redeem, would be only to miss everything."—The Consecrated Way to Christian Perfection, A. T Jones, 34
quote:
This ladder represented Christ who had opened the communication between earth and Heaven. In Christ's humiliation he descended to the very depth of human woe in sympathy and pity for fallen man, which was represented to Jacob by one end of the ladder resting upon the earth, while the top of the ladder, reaching unto Heaven, represents the divine power of Christ, who grasps the Infinite, and thus links earth to Heaven, and finite man to the infinite God. Through Christ the communication is opened between God and man. Angels may pass from Heaven to earth with messages of love to fallen man, and to minister unto those who shall be heirs of salvation. (RH 8/17/74)
Ellen White's views were no differnt on this subject than her SDA contemporaries. In the previous post I pointed out how the SDA's in the late 1890's and early 1900's met the Holy Flesh heresy by arguing that Christ took our sinful flesh, not the flesh of unfallen Adam. Ellen White was a party to this.
In 1890 she wrote:
quote:
Letters have been coming in to me, affirming that Christ could not have had the same nature as man, for if he had, he would have fallen under similar temptations. If he did not have man's nature, he could not be our example. If he was not a partaker of our nature, he could not have been tempted as man has been. If it were not possible for him to yield to temptation, he could not be our helper. It was a solemn reality that Christ came to fight the battles as man, in man's behalf. His temptation and victory tell us that humanity must copy the Pattern; man must become a partaker of the divine nature. (RH 2/18/90)
Ellen White was preaching with Jones and Waggoner when she wrote this, and defended the point of view they were together presenting. There is not a scintilla of evidence that her view was in any way different than that of Jones, Waggoner, or Prescott's, whom she endorsed enthusiastically.
It is only in relatively recent times that the view of some in the SDA church started to change. 1947 was the first time, if memory serves, that the prelapsarian view first appeared in an SDA publication. There's simply no logical way (at least none I can see; I'm open to hear attempts) that Ellen White could have held a view contrary to those around her, those whom she preached with, those whom she endorsed, those who methods she approved of, without these differences being known.
When she had a difference on a much smaller matter (whether Christ could have sinned), she made that difference clear to Waggoner (who immediately stopped teaching this -- he had been saying Christ couldn't sin because He had perfect faith, this was in 1888-1889). If she had viewed Waggoner's and Jones' views on the nature of Christ to be wrong, she certainly would have corrected them, and would certainly not have endorsed them on this very point, and would not have endorsed Prescott's sermon on this very subject.
I think I mentioned this earlier, but if not I can flesh out this argument. She wrote that Satan claimed that fallen man could not keep the law of God, and that Christ took our fallen nature in order to prove that Satan's claims were false (reminisent of Romans 8:3,4). If Christ did not take our nature, her whole argument falls to pieces (as does Paul's).
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/29/05 09:26 PM
quote:
"It so happens" to a native speaking American is a sarcastic phrase.
Sorry, what I wished to say was “Acontece que...”
quote:
How so? I gave an example of blue eyes.
Blue eyes do not fit, for they can only be inherited; she had to find an expression which could be applied at the same time to something that can be either inherited or acquired, as is the case of propensities/inclinations/tendencies. You could say, for instance, "not for one moment have I been rich", which means you neither were born rich nor ever became rich. Or you could say, "not for one moment have I had the HIV virus in my body", which means you neither were born with it nor ever acquired it.
quote:
We can be of good cheer because Christ overcame our temptations.
As I pointed out several times, Ellen White doesn’t make any distinction between the temptations of Adam and Eve, the temptations of Christ, and ours.
quote:
The "lowest depths of degredation" does not refer to man's getting tired or hungry, but to that which sin has wraught.
Neither could the “lowest depths of degradation” refer to just tendencies to sin; it certainly means real acts of sin. However, in this passage the expression is applied to man, not to Christ.
quote:
The "infirmities of degenerate humanity" is the same thing as our sinful nature, or sinful flesh.
To me, it means the “effects of sin” (another expression she uses).
"In our humanity, Christ was to redeem Adam's failure. But when Adam was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity" (DA 117).
“He humbled Himself in taking the nature of man in his fallen condition, but he did not take the taint of sin.”--Ms 93, 1893, p. 3. {17MR 24.2}
Please note the expression: "He did not take the taint of sin".
“There should not be the faintest misgiving in regard to the perfect freedom from sinfulness in the human nature of Christ.”--Ms 143, 1897, pp. 1, 3. {17MR 26.1}
quote:
She wrote that Satan claimed that fallen man could not keep the law of God, and that Christ took our fallen nature in order to prove that Satan's claims were false (reminisent of Romans 8:3,4). If Christ did not take our nature, her whole argument falls to pieces (as does Paul's).
She did write that Satan claimed that man [irrespective of pre or post fall] could not keep the law of God and that he pointed to Adam’ssin as proof of this. She said that Christ took Adam’s position, that He came to redeem Adam’s failure, that He began where Adam began. If He began where we begin, her whole argument falls to pieces.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/29/05 09:52 PM
Jesus was tempted in the same way born again believers are tempted. Before His incarnation this was not possible. So, what was the difference before and after His incarnation? Why was it possible for Him to be tempted after His incarnation?
In what way are the 144,000 more like Jesus than the rest of us? Are they more perfect, more sinless? If so, how so?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/29/05 11:40 PM
Sorry, what I wished to say was “Acontece que...”
No problem.Old Tom:How so? I gave an example of blue eyes.
Blue eyes do not fit, for they can only be inherited; she had to find an expression which could be applied at the same time to something that can be either inherited or acquired, as is the case of propensities/inclinations/tendencies. You could say, for instance, "not for one moment have I been rich", which means you neither were born rich nor ever became rich. Or you could say, "not for one moment have I had the HIV virus in my body", which means you neither were born with it nor ever acquired it.
The point I'm making is that it doesn't make any sense to say of Christ, "Not in one moment was there in Him an evil propensity" if this was something which is inherited, just as one would not say, "Not for one moment was I left-handed". The qualification "not for one moment" doesn't make any sense for a static trait (such as anything which would be inherited) but only for something one could have control over, such as committing sin. Hence it is unlikely that Ellen White had in mind the flesh Christ inherited in her expressions in the Baker letter. It's more likely that Ellen White had in mind Christ's not having committed any sin in mind, and also, from the Baker letter, that she had in mind that Christ was not only human, but also divine.
We see this theme in all her writings, that while she was clear that Christ took our flesh and went to the very depths of where we were to rescue us, this did not imply either that Christ was not fully divine, nor that Christ had committed any sin.Old Tom:We can be of good cheer because Christ overcame our temptations.
As I pointed out several times, Ellen White doesn’t make any distinction between the temptations of Adam and Eve, the temptations of Christ, and ours.
You just pointed out there were differences in your explanation of the Bible Echo quote. You pointed out that Christ had none of the advantages that Adam had. Old Tom:The "lowest depths of degredation" does not refer to man's getting tired or hungry, but to that which sin has wraught.
Neither could the “lowest depths of degradation” refer to just tendencies to sin; it certainly means real acts of sin. However, in this passage the expression is applied to man, not to Christ.
The passage applies principally to Christ, because it is pointing out that He reached down to where we were. That we are in the lowest depths of degredation is not a revelation. That Christ could get down to our level, to be able to bring us out, is. Bible Readings for the Home puts it this way: quote:
"In His humanity, Christ partook of our sinful fallen nature, If not, then He was not made like unto His brethren; therefore He was not, in all points tempted like as we are, did not overcome as we have to overcome, and is not therefore the complete and perfect Saviour man needs, and must have to be saved. The idea that Christ was born of an immaculate, sinless mother and inherited no tendencies to sin removed Him from the realm of a fallen world and from the very place where help is needed. On His human side, Christ inherited just what every child of Adam inherited, a sinful nature, On the divine side, from His very conception, He was begotten and born of the Spirit. And all this was done to place mankind on vantage ground and to demonstrate that, in the same way, every one who is born of the Spirit may gain like victories over sin in his own sinful flesh. Thus each one is to overcome as Christ overcame (Rev. 3:21). Without this birth, there can be no victory over temptation and no salvation from sin," Bible Readings for the Home 1914-1946
"In our humanity, Christ was to redeem Adam's failure. But when Adam was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity" (DA 117).
“He humbled Himself in taking the nature of man in his fallen condition, but he did not take the taint of sin.”--Ms 93, 1893, p. 3. {17MR 24.2}
Please note the expression: "He did not take the taint of sin".
The "taint of sin" refers to the committing of sin. In other words, Christ never committed sin. Christ took our sinful nature upon His sinless nature; He was made to be sin for us, but He never sinned. As Waggoner puts it:
quote:
Some may have thought, while reading thus far, that we were depreciating the character of Jesus by bringing Him down to the level of sinful man. On the contrary, we are simply exalting the "Divine power" of our blessed Saviour, who Himself voluntarily descended to the level of sinful man in order that He might exalt man to His own spotless purity, which He retained under the most adverse circumstances. His humanity only veiled His Divine nature, by which He was inseparably connected with the invisible God and which was more than able successfully to resist the weaknesses of the flesh. There was in His whole life a struggle. The flesh, moved upon by the enemy of all righteousness, would tend to sin, yet His Divine nature never for a moment harboured an evil desire nor did His Divine power for a moment waver. Having suffered in the flesh all that men can possibly suffer, He returned to the throne of the Father as spotless as when He left the courts of glory. When He lay in the tomb, under the power of death, "it was impossible that he should be holden of it," because he "knew no sin." (Christ And His Rightouesness)
“There should not be the faintest misgiving in regard to the perfect freedom from sinfulness in the human nature of Christ.”--Ms 143, 1897, pp. 1, 3. {17MR 26.1}
Just as Waggoner stated, Christ, while taking our sinful flesh, returned to the throne as spotless as He was when He left. "Sinlessness" is something which Ellen White ascribes as possible for us to attain, so it clearly does not refer to our flesh, as we cannot in this life obtain sinless flesh.
quote:
The Saviour is wounded afresh and put to open shame when His people pay no heed to His word. He came to this world and lived a sinless life, that in His power His people might also live lives of sinlessness. He desires them by practicing the principles of truth to show to the world that God's grace has power to sanctify the heart. (4/1/02)
Old Tom:She wrote that Satan claimed that fallen man could not keep the law of God, and that Christ took our fallen nature in order to prove that Satan's claims were false (reminisent of Romans 8:3,4). If Christ did not take our nature, her whole argument falls to pieces (as does Paul's).
She did write that Satan claimed that man [irrespective of pre or post fall] could not keep the law of God and that he pointed to Adam’ssin as proof of this. She said that Christ took Adam’s position, that He came to redeem Adam’s failure, that He began where Adam began. If He began where we begin, her whole argument falls to pieces.
He began where Adam began in terms of being sinless, and being tempted (i.e., that He was tempted at all).
quote:
"Satan had pointed to Adam's sin as proof that God's law was unjust, and could not be obeyed. In our humanity, Christ was to redeem Adam's failure. But when Adam was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation.
"Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured."—(DA 116-117).
Note:
1)We do not have in any sense a more trying conflict than Christ had.
2)Christ took humanity with all its liabilities.
3)We have nothing to bear which Christ has not endured.
There's only two possibilities here:
a)Christ took our nature, and faced the same problems we have, including genetic tendencies
b)Having a sinful nature does not make our temptations any more difficult than not having a sinful nature.
It determinig Ellen White's views, considering what she wrote theologically is only one thing to consider. Also to be considered are the following:
1)She endorsed the teachings of those who taught that Christ took our sinful nature.
2)She preached with those who taught that Christ took our sinful nature.
3)She defended the position of herself and those who were preaching that Christ took fallen nature
4)She approved of using the teaching that Christ took fallen nature to counteract the teaching of the Holy Flesh heresy.
5)All her SDA colleagues believed as she did. It was only to those outside the SDA church that efforts were made to convince them that Christ took fallen nature.
6)Not until 1947 was the idea that Christ did not take sinful nature printed in the SDA church.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/30/05 02:51 PM
quote:
“He humbled Himself in taking the nature of man in his fallen condition, but he did not take the taint of sin.”--Ms 93, 1893, p. 3. {17MR 24.2}
T: The "taint of sin" refers to the committing of sin. In other words, Christ never committed sin.
So the text means that Christ took the nature of man but did not take the committing of sin? A very strange way of saying things, not to mention that it would be a foolish statement. How could a Savior “take” the committing of sin?
Other texts also express the same idea:
“He was to take His position at the head of humanity by taking the nature but not the sinfulness of man” (ST May 29, 1901).
Please notice that the text says that the sinfulness of man was something He didn’t take, not something He didn’t develop.
quote:
There's only two possibilities here:
a)Christ took our nature, and faced the same problems we have, including genetic tendencies
b)Having a sinful nature does not make our temptations any more difficult than not having a sinful nature.
Yes, I think you will stay with the first option and I will stay with the second.
The essence of temptation is the same, the intensity of temptation may vary. Of course things were much easier for Adam because God did not permit Satan to attack him with the fury he attacked Christ.
“For forty days and forty nights He fasted; then, when He hungered, Satan came to Him as though a messenger from the heavenly courts, and tempted Him. In this contest Christ was at a disadvantage, for His strength was reduced by His long fast. The plan of salvation was so arranged that when Adam was tested, temptation was removed from him as far as possible. When Adam was tempted, he was not hungry. He had the opportunity of satisfying every need. But when Christ was tempted, He was faint from want of food. He was to qualify Himself for the office of Redeemer by successfully resisting every assault of the enemy. His power of resistance was to be an example for all who would hereafter be placed in trying positions.” {ST, April 4, 1900 par. 4}
"With the terrible weight of the sins of the world upon Him, Christ withstood the test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon that love of display which leads to presumption. These were the temptations that overcame Adam and Eve, and that so readily overcome us." (DA 116, 117)
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/30/05 04:32 PM
quote:
There's only two possibilities here:
a)Christ took our nature, and faced the same problems we have, including genetic tendencies
b)Having a sinful nature does not make our temptations any more difficult than not having a sinful nature.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Both are correct - rightly understood.
Unless we understand the division between the flesh and the spirit, we will never understand it.
a)Christ took our nature (sinful flesh), and faced the same problems we have, including genetic tendencies – according to the flesh.
Christ did not take our sinful nature (sinful spirit) but rather retained his holy spirit.
b) Having sinful flesh does not make our temptations any more difficult than not having sinful flesh. Having a sinful spirit makes us slaves to temptation and sinners. For this cause Christ came in sinful flesh but with a holy spirit, to concdemn sin in the flesh.
To all who are willing to receive, he gives us his holy spirit so that we likewise may live as he lived/lives. In this sinful flesh by his holy spirit it is no more difficult to live victoriously than not having sinful flesh.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/30/05 06:56 PM
Rosangela, in what way was the mind of Jesus different before and during His incarnation?
John, your thoughts on having the spirit of God and having sinful flesh nature sound idylic. But reality reminds me of something quite different, and I haven't even sweated blood resisting the sins of the flesh - yet.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/30/05 08:44 PM
quote:
John, your thoughts on having the spirit of God and having sinful flesh nature sound idylic. But reality reminds me of something quite different, and I haven't even sweated blood resisting the sins of the flesh - yet.
Christ did not for one moment sweat blood resisting the sins of the flesh. He sweated blood resisting the horror of that great darkness; spiritual wickedness in high places; sinful spirit of Satan which was pressed upon him and surrounded him that hour.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/30/05 08:55 PM
Whether my thoughts are idyllic or not, should be reflected by the fact that there are many angelic beings that sinned, and far worse (if that can be said) than most men, and they did not have to contend with any sinful flesh. Satan himself doesn’t even have anyone to blame that someone could have suggested temptation to him, much less that he had sinful flesh. The other fact is that Christ lived/lives victoriously regardless of circumstances (nature) of his body.
Living victoriously has to do with spirit and not with body.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/31/05 05:33 AM
“He humbled Himself in taking the nature of man in his fallen condition, but he did not take the taint of sin.”--Ms 93, 1893, p. 3. {17MR 24.2}
T: The "taint of sin" refers to the committing of sin. In other words, Christ never committed sin.
So the text means that Christ took the nature of man but did not take the committing of sin?
It means He took our sinful nature, but never committed sin in that nature.A very strange way of saying things, not to mention that it would be a foolish statement. How could a Savior “take” the committing of sin?
Other texts also express the same idea:
“He was to take His position at the head of humanity by taking the nature but not the sinfulness of man” (ST May 29, 1901).
Please notice that the text says that the sinfulness of man was something He didn’t take, not something He didn’t develop.
She's just making the same point. She wants to be clear that in taking our nature Christ did not participate in sin. She's following the same advice she gave to Baker. She's trying to be clear. It's the same thing Waggoner did when he wrote:
quote:
There was in His whole life a struggle. The flesh, moved upon by the enemy of all righteousness, would tend to sin, yet His Divine nature never for a moment harboured an evil desire nor did His Divine power for a moment waver. Having suffered in the flesh all that men can possibly suffer, He returned to the throne of the Father as spotless as when He left the courts of glory. When He lay in the tomb, under the power of death, "it was impossible that he should be holden of it," because he "knew no sin." (Christ and His righteousness)
The word "taint" means "stain". It is sin that stains or taints, not nature (hence "taint of sin" ). Our sinful nature does not taint, or else Christ could not have taken it, correct?
quote:
Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those He wished to save. In Him was no guile or sinfulness; He was ever pure and undefiled; yet He took upon Him our sinful nature . Clothing His divinity with humanity, that He might associate with fallen humanity, He sought to regain for man that which, by disobedience, Adam had lost for himself and for the world. In His own character He displayed to the world the character of God. (RH 12/15/96)
Here's some quotes relating to "taint":
quote:
Sin is corrupting in its nature. One man infected with its deadly leprosy may communicate the taint to thousands. Those who occupy responsible positions as guardians of the people are false to their trust if they do not faithfully search out and reprove sin. (CC 120)
quote:
"Learn of me," is the Saviour's command. Yes, learn of Him how to live the Christ life--a life pure and holy, free from any taint of sin. (IHP 183)
quote:
Every soul is surrounded with an atmosphere of its own,--an atmosphere, it may be, charged with the life-giving power of faith, courage, and hope, and sweet with the fragrance of love. Or it may be heavy and chill with the gloom of discontent and selfishness, or poisonous with the deadly taint of cherished sin. (ST 7/2/02)
Ellen White never speaks of nature tainting, only sin. Christ took our sinful nature, but He received no taint because He never sinned.
Regarding "sinlessness":
quote:
Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. (Maranatha 224)
quote:
His life of sinlessness, lived on this earth in human nature, is a complete refutation of Satan's charge against the character of God. (BTS 10/1/02)
quote:
The penalty of our transgression fell upon a pure, holy, innocent Substitute, even the Son of God. He bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we might at last stand before God clothed in the robe of sinlessness.(ST 7/17/03)
Ellen White uses "sinlessness" to mean not committing sin. Christ took our sinful nature, but did not commit sin in that nature. Her teaching was consistent on this point, and no different than Prescott, Jones, Waggoner, Haskell, Wilcox, Underwood, Farnsworth, Glenn, Evans, Covert, Durland, Tenney, Fifield and others, all writing on this subject before 1898, in our publications, all known by Ellen White.
Old Tom:There's only two possibilities here:
a)Christ took our nature, and faced the same problems we have, including genetic tendencies
b)Having a sinful nature does not make our temptations any more difficult than not having a sinful nature.
Yes, I think you will stay with the first option and I will stay with the second.
The essence of temptation is the same, the intensity of temptation may vary.
An important difference is that we, with sinful natures, could not overcome temptation had not Christ taken our sinful nature. Adam, with his sinless nature, could have overcome temptation without Christ taking his sinless nature. This is a big difference!
quote:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh"--it could not justify man, because in his sinful nature he could not keep the law--"God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 5:1, 3:31, 8:3, 4. (PP 373)
In our sinful nature, we could not keep the law. So Christ took our sinful nature, in order that the law might be fulfilled in us. This is the logic of Paul, and this logic is restated by Ellen White.
Of course things were much easier for Adam because God did not permit Satan to attack him with the fury he attacked Christ.
“For forty days and forty nights He fasted; then, when He hungered, Satan came to Him as though a messenger from the heavenly courts, and tempted Him. In this contest Christ was at a disadvantage, for His strength was reduced by His long fast. The plan of salvation was so arranged that when Adam was tested, temptation was removed from him as far as possible. When Adam was tempted, he was not hungry. He had the opportunity of satisfying every need. But when Christ was tempted, He was faint from want of food. He was to qualify Himself for the office of Redeemer by successfully resisting every assault of the enemy. His power of resistance was to be an example for all who would hereafter be placed in trying positions.” {ST, April 4, 1900 par. 4}
"With the terrible weight of the sins of the world upon Him, Christ withstood the test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon that love of display which leads to presumption. These were the temptations that overcame Adam and Eve, and that so readily overcome us." (DA 116, 117)
In discussing this issue, dealing with Ellen White's theology and use of terms is only one part of the puzzle. She did not exist in a vacuum. She worked with others, and shared their views.
1)She endorsed the teachings of those who taught that Christ took our sinful nature.
2)She preached with those who taught that Christ took our sinful nature.
3)She defended the position of herself and those who were preaching that Christ took fallen nature
4)She approved of using the teaching that Christ took fallen nature to counteract the teaching of the Holy Flesh heresy.
5)All her SDA colleagues believed as she did. It was only to those outside the SDA church that efforts were made to convince them that Christ took fallen nature.
6)Not until 1947 was the idea that Christ did not take sinful nature printed in the SDA church.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/31/05 02:54 PM
It seems I am in agreement with John.
Mike,
I think the difference is that after incarnation Christ’s mind had to deal with His human feelings and desires.
Tom,
I think we will have to agree to disagree.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/31/05 04:59 PM
quote:
“He humbled Himself in taking the nature of man in his fallen condition, but he did not take the taint of sin.”
That is the same as saying that:
a)Christ took our nature (sinful flesh), and faced the same problems we have, including genetic tendencies – according to the flesh.
Christ did not take our sinful nature (sinful spirit) but rather retained his holy spirit.
To take on the sinful spirit, would mean that he would have to participate in sin and he did not.
There is nothing in us that causes us to sin but our sinful spirit. The solution is his Holy Spirit. That is the message of righteousness by faith, Christ in you the hope of glory.
The sinful spirit was allowed to be pressed upon him several times which he resisted to the point of the cross.
May God help us understand and receive his holy spirit.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/31/05 06:41 PM
John, Satan's flesh became sinful the moment he sinned. The same is true of Adam. In the case of the humans, sinful flesh nature gains momentum as it is passed on from generation to generation. Its ability to tempt us grows stronger and stronger each time it is added to and passed on. Things are far worse now than they were immediately after Adam sinned.
quote:
May God help us understand and receive his holy spirit.
May God help us understand and recieve the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead. I do not agree with the implication that the Holy Spirit is not a divine Being in the same way the Father and the Son are divine Beings. This is not a separate topic.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/31/05 06:46 PM
Rosangela, in what way did Jesus' human feelings and desires differ from the ones He dealt with before His incarnation?
What was it about His sinful human nature that made it possible for Him to be tempted in the same way born again believers are tempted?
Was He tempted from within in the same way born again believers are tempted from within?
Since it is not a sin to be tempted, was Jesus tempted differently than how born again believers are tempted? That is, was the origin or source of His temptations different? I realize some of His temptations were different.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 10/31/05 08:00 PM
Rosangela, you never did respond to the historical considerations, which I what I consider to be the weakest part of the pre-lapsarian position. One can attempt to parse Ellen White's words in different ways, but one cannot change history.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/01/05 12:27 AM
sorry..double post
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/01/05 12:30 AM
quote:
Satan's flesh became sinful the moment he sinned. The same is true of Adam. In the case of the humans, sinful flesh nature gains momentum as it is passed on from generation to generation. Its ability to tempt us grows stronger and stronger each time it is added to and passed on. Things are far worse now than they were immediately after Adam sinned.
I agree that a change in the spirit affects the flesh. I disagree that a change in the flesh alters the spirit.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/01/05 04:04 PM
Tom,
I’m sure we have discussed this in the past. What I see in our history is that just because Ellen White endorsed some author/preacher, this doesn’t mean she was in agreement with every aspect of what that author/preacher said. So, I don’t go to others in order to establish what Ellen White thought. I go to what she wrote herself.
Mike,
quote:
Rosangela, in what way did Jesus' human feelings and desires differ from the ones He dealt with before His incarnation?
Well, God doesn’t have to deal with fear, discouragement, depression; the desire to avoid disagreeable experiences, suffering, and death; desires related to physical needs and impulses.
“The human will of Christ would not have led him to the wilderness of temptation, to fast, and to be tempted of the devil. It would not have led him to endure humiliation, scorn, reproach, suffering, and death. His human nature shrank from all these things as decidedly as ours shrinks from them.” {ST, October 29, 1894 par. 9}
quote:
What was it about His sinful human nature that made it possible for Him to be tempted in the same way born again believers are tempted?
All the things mentioned above are sources of temptation.
quote:
Was He tempted from within in the same way born again believers are tempted from within?
It depends on what “temptations from within” mean. Christ didn’t possess inward corruption, nor did He have a sinful self to subdue, like us:
“Christ did not need to fast for forty days because of inward corruption, or to subdue self. He was sinless. It was on our account that He fasted.” {21MR 11.4}
quote:
Since it is not a sin to be tempted, was Jesus tempted differently than how born again believers are tempted? That is, was the origin or source of His temptations different? I realize some of His temptations were different.
In my opinion, things worked that way: He was tempted to become selfish, not to manifest His inward selfishness.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/01/05 06:39 PM
quote:
I’m sure we have discussed this in the past. What I see in our history is that just because Ellen White endorsed some author/preacher, this doesn’t mean she was in agreement with every aspect of what that author/preacher said. So, I don’t go to others in order to establish what Ellen White thought. I go to what she wrote herself.
If Ellen White endorses some author/preacher on a specific point of theology then that does imply that she agrees with that point of theology.
To ignore this I don't think is going "with what she wrote herself" because the endorsements are a part of what she wrote!
For example, she listened in person to a sermon by W. W. Prescott entitled "The Word Became Flesh". Over three dozen times W. W. Prescott referred to the fact that Christ took our fallen, sinful flesh. She referred to this sermon as "truth separated from error". The subject of the sermon was the nature of Christ; it wasn't just a part of the sermon. The endorsement of "truth separated from error" must include the nature of Christ, because that's what the sermon was about!
Ellen White's ministry was in the context of history, just like that of any other human. To interpret her aright, it's essential that we be aware of the theology of her colleagues (especially those she endorsed) and how she related to them.
She not only endorsed the particular points of theology of certain ones (such as Waggoner and Haskel), she endorsed this theology with the specific purpose of overcoming a heresy whose foundation was the opposite of what she was endorsing. That is, the Holy Flesh heresy was predicated on the belief that Christ took the unfallen nature of Adam. SDA's, with her blessing, counteracted this theology by pointing out that we (i.e. SDA's) do not believe that Christ took the nature of unfallen Adam, but rather the nature of fallen Adam. "We" as Haskell quoted in her letter to Ellen White, must include Ellen White.
I also quoted her statement in 1890 when she was preaching with Jones and Waggoner on the subject of Christ's nature, and responded letters had been coming to her questioning how Christ could have the fallen nature of Adam. She defended the position that she, Jones and Waggoner were presenting. It is evident from this statement that her position was identical to theirs, and she in defending that position was defending their position as well as hers.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/01/05 10:49 PM
Rosangela, I forgot to ask - Was Jesus tempted like Adam before his fall? Or, was Jesus tempted like Adam after his fall? Is there any difference, so far as it relates to the origin and source of temptation (internal versus external)?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/02/05 12:23 AM
Rosangela has stated several times that she sees no essential difference in how man is tempted before or after the fall.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/02/05 02:57 AM
quote:
If Ellen White endorses some author/preacher on a specific point of theology then that does imply that she agrees with that point of theology.
Tom, she endorsed Crosier’s view on the sanctuary. What would happen if someone decided to use Crosier’s article as a basis to determine Ellen White’s thought?
She also endorsed Waggoner’s presentation on righteousness by faith in 1888. Why then did she say in a letter that there were some points on which she did not agree with him?
quote:
For example, she listened in person to a sermon by W. W. Prescott entitled "The Word Became Flesh". Over three dozen times W. W. Prescott referred to the fact that Christ took our fallen, sinful flesh.
OK, but in his sermon Prescott doesn’t mention that Christ took our sinful tendencies.
quote:
She not only endorsed the particular points of theology of certain ones (such as Waggoner and Haskel), she endorsed this theology with the specific purpose of overcoming a heresy whose foundation was the opposite of what she was endorsing. That is, the Holy Flesh heresy was predicated on the belief that Christ took the unfallen nature of Adam.
It is difficult to determine exactly what the holy flesh movement taught. Haskell himself said that it was "a mixture of truth and error, with much excitement and music." {5BIO 102.3}
“In 1898 and 1899 Elder S. S. Davis, conference evangelist in Indiana, developed and promulgated teachings that led to this movement. The basic features of this strange doctrine, which was called ‘the cleansing message,’ were that when Jesus passed through the Garden of Gethsemane He had an experience that all who follow Him must have. It was taught that Jesus had holy flesh, and that those who followed Him through this Garden experience would likewise have holy flesh. They were then ‘born’ sons of God and they had ‘translation’ faith. Having holy flesh like Christ, they could not experience corruption any more than He did; thus they would live to see Him come. This faith, it was claimed, was similar to that which led to the translation of Enoch and Elijah. Those who did not have this experience were ‘adopted’ sons. They did not have translation faith; they must pass through the grave and thus go to heaven by ‘the underground railway.’” {5BIO 100.5}
Ellen White says about holy flesh:
“When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to ‘change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body.’”--2SM 33 (1901).
Maybe the movement held that sinful tendencies were eliminated when the person underwent the “Garden experience”, but its main emphasis seems to have been on the elimination of the effects of sin, resulting in a body not subject to corruption, a body ready to be translated. This definitely was not the flesh Christ took.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/02/05 03:50 AM
If Ellen White endorses some author/preacher on a specific point of theology then that does imply that she agrees with that point of theology.
Tom, she endorsed Crosier’s view on the sanctuary. What would happen if someone decided to use Crosier’s article as a basis to determine Ellen White’s thought?
I assume the point of your question is something like this:
a)It would be a bad thing if we used Crosier's article as a basis to determine Ellen White's thought.
b)Therefore it is bad to use Ellen White's endorsement of anyone to determine her thought on anything.
This isn't a sound argument. To disprove my argument you would have to mention a specific theology point on which Ellen White agreed with Crosier, and then show that on the very point that she endorsed him on, she disagreed. Good luck!
I don't understand how EGW could endorse a specific point of theology and not agree with the specific point that she was endorsing.
She also endorsed Waggoner’s presentation on righteousness by faith in 1888. Why then did she say in a letter that there were some points on which she did not agree with him?
She had never heard Waggoner speak before the 1888 General Conference Session. She was amazed when she heard him speak, her face beaming, and exhorting, "Amen! Brethren, there is great light here!
The purpose of her statement that there were some things she did not disagree with was to allay the stark prejudice there was against Waggoner's message, trying to get those present with her to consider his message. She was saying even for herself there were some things which were different than what she was at that time thinking, just like there were things the others were hearing which were different than what they had been thinking. She was trying to get them to set aside their prejudice.
To use this phrase of hers, which was designed to establish the importance of Waggoner's message in a way to instead diminish it is amazing. One could hardly stand her words on their head more than this.
If you read the material released by the Ellen White estate, you can get a sense of her meaning, not just in this instance, but as a whole. She endorsed Jones and Waggoner's message over a thousand times, and in the strongest possible language. You can read her letters to those who opposed them, about how she appealed over and over for them to set aside their prejudice and listen to what Waggoner and Jones were saying, pointing out that it was light from heaven which we would not have had had God not sent them (making it clear that it was not light that God was giving to the church through her). She made it clear that she was not the only means by which God communicated truth to the church, and stated to Pastor Washburn that they (Jones and Waggoner) could teach righteousness by faith better than she.
"Why, Sister White," I said, "do you mean to say that E. J. Waggoner can teach it better than you can, with all your experience?" Sister White replied, "Yes, the Lord has given him special light on that question. I have been wanting to bring it out more clearly, but I could not have brought it out as clearly as he did. But when he brought it out at Minneapolis, I recognized it."
At any rate, my statement that if she endorsed someone on a theological point that she agreed with them on that point is so obviously true it would be difficult to see how anyone could argue against it. If I had said something like, "Because Ellen White agreed with Jones and Waggoner on one point, she must have agreed with them on everything they ever said" that would be another matter, but I didn't say that. I qualified my assertion to saying that if she endorsed someone on a specific point, she agreed with them on that point.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/02/05 08:26 AM
Regarding Prescott, am I to understand you agreed with the sermon, given that it didn't mention Christ had our tendencies? Excellent! It was a great sermon, wasn't it?
Yours is the first opinion I've seen that states it is difficult to know what the Holy Flesh people taught. Haskell explained is succinctly:
quote:
Their point of theology in this particular respect seems to be this. They believe that Christ took Adam’s nature before he fell; so He [Christ] took humanity as it was in the garden of Eden, and thus humanity was holy, and this is the humanity which Christ had; and now, they say, the particular time has come for us to become holy in that sense, and then we will have ‘translation faith’ and never die.
He then commented on their attempts to convince them of their error:
quote:
When we stated that we believed that Christ was born in fallen humanity, they would represent us as believing that Christ sinned, notwithstanding the fact that we would state our position so clearly that it would seem as though no one could misunderstand us.”
Waggoner preached to the same end at the 1901 General Conference session. The Adventists alive at the time didn't seem to have any trouble understanding what the holy flesh movement was teaching, nor how it should be cured. Teach the truth about the nature Christ took. Easy!
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/02/05 04:48 PM
Tom,
What I am saying is that if Ellen White endorses someone’s theological view on a certain point, she doesn’t have to endorse 100% of the opinions of that person involved in that view.
Ellen White not only endorsed, but said that "The Lord shew me in vision, more than one year ago, that Brother Crosier had the true light, on the cleansing of the Sanctuary, &c; and that it was his will, that Brother C. should write out the view which he gave us in the Day-Star Extra, February 7, 1846. I feel fully authorized to recommend that Extra to every saint." (A Word to the Little Flock, p. 12. April 21, 1847).
However, in this article, one of the author’s arguments is that
“the former [the daily atonement] was made for the forgiveness of sins, the latter [the yearly atonement] for blotting them out - the former could be made at any time, the latter only on the tenth day of the seventh month.” (italics in the original)
On this basis, the author concludes that
“It has been shown that atonement was made for the forgiveness of sins, and I have found no evidence that such an atonement was made on tenth day of the seventh month.” (italics in the original, bolds mine)
Being the conclusion of the author that there was no forgiveness of sins during the day of atonement, he refutes the evangelical view that Christ entered the holy of holies at His ascension using the following argument:
“Now it must be clear to every one, that if the antitype of the yearly service (Hebrews 9:7), began at the first Advent, the antitype of the daily (Hebrews 9:6), had been previously fulfilled; and, as the atonement for forgiveness was a part of that daily service, they are involved in the conclusion that there has been no forgiveness of sins under the Gospel Dispensation.” (bolds mine)
Have you realized that he is teaching the shut door – no forgiveness of sins on the day of atonement? And do you think that Ellen White – or God - endorsed this?
Another erroneous view of the author (which Andreasen, in his Letters to the Churches, presents as being Ellen White’s view just because she endorses this article), is that the atonement doesn't involve the sacrifice – just the subsequent ministration of the blood.
“The slaying was not making the atonement; the sinner slew the victim. (See Leviticus 4:1–5, 13–15, etc.) After the priest took the blood and made the atonement. (See Leviticus 4:5–12, 16–21.)...
Therefore, He did not begin the work of making the atonement, whatever the nature of that work may be, until after His ascension, when by his own blood, He entered the heavenly sanctuary for us."
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/02/05 04:51 PM
quote:
The purpose of her statement that there were some things she did not disagree with was to allay the stark prejudice there was against Waggoner's message, trying to get those present with her to consider his message. She was saying even for herself there were some things which were different than what she was at that time thinking, just like there were things the others were hearing which were different than what they had been thinking. She was trying to get them to set aside their prejudice.
“Some interpretations of Scripture given by Dr. Waggoner I do not regard as correct. But I believe him to be perfectly honest in his views, and I would respect his feelings and treat him as a Christian gentleman. I have no reason to think that he is not as much esteemed of God as are any of my brethren, and I shall regard him as a Christian brother, so long as there is no evidence that he is unworthy. The fact that he honestly holds some views of Scripture differing from yours or mine is no reason why we should treat him as an offender, or as a dangerous man, and make him the subject of unjust criticism. We should not raise a voice of censure against him or his teachings unless we can present weighty reasons for so doing and show him that he is in error. No one should feel at liberty to give loose rein to the combative spirit.” {1888 164.1}
She said that she didn’t consider some interpretations of the Bible given by Waggoner as correct – and this was just “to allay the stark prejudice” against him?
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/02/05 04:54 PM
quote:
Yours is the first opinion I've seen that states it is difficult to know what the Holy Flesh people taught. Haskell explained is succinctly:
Yes, his explanation there is very succinct indeed; in fact, too succinct for us to have a true idea about what this movement taught. Another letter of his, together with Ellen White’s reply, can give us a better idea:
"Some of the strangest doctrines I have heard is the seal of God cannot be placed on any person of gray hairs, or any deformed person, for in the closing work, we would reach such a state of perfection, both physically and spiritually, and then could not die. I said to brother Breed...that I expected the next I would hear we could get a new set of teeth in this life. Well, brother Breed said, that was preached by some."--S. N. Haskell, to E. G. White, October 3, 1899. {14MR 65.2}
Six weeks later Elder Haskell wrote further:
"There is a doctrine, however, being preached by some that is called physical righteousness. It is this--if we live aright, it will ensure us to live and be made immortal when the Lord comes."--S. N. Haskell to E. G. White, November 23, 1899. {14MR 65.4}
Haskell indicated that the advocates of the "physical righteousness" or "holy flesh" doctrine based their teaching on a statement made by Ellen White. In 1877 she had written: {14MR 65.5}
“Those who make determined efforts in the name of the conqueror to overcome every unnatural craving of appetite will not die in the conflict. In their efforts to control appetite they are placing themselves in right relation to life, so that they may enjoy health and the favor of God, and have a right hold on the immortal life."--Redemption, or The Temptation of Christ, p. 81. {14MR 65.6}
These are some excerpts of the reply of E. White:
“Those who present the idea that the blind, the deaf, the lame, the deformed, will not receive the seal of God, are not speaking words given them by the Holy Spirit. There is much suffering in our world. To some, suffering and disease have been transmitted as an inheritance. Others suffer because of accidents. Cause and effect are always in operation in our world, and always will be. The Lord has afflicted ones, dearly beloved in His sight, who bear the suffering of bodily infirmities. To them special care and grace is promised. Their trials will not be greater than they can endure. {14MR 56.2}
“No one in this world is exempt from calamity, from misfortune, and affliction. But if our hearts are washed in the blood of the Lamb, however poor and afflicted we may be, we are privileged to see in anticipation the joy that will be ours in heaven. Then let God's promises be received and enjoyed by faith. Let none of God's people believe the fables advanced by some regarding the color of the hair. The idea that persons who are deformed must be healed in order to be saved is a fable originated by someone who needs inward cleansing before he can receive the seal of God. In the great day of God, all who are faithful and true will receive the healing touch of the divine Restorer. The Life-giver will remove every deformity, and will give them eternal life. {14MR 64.1}
“In God's Word the question is not, What is the color of the hair or the form of the body? but, Has the heart been purified, made white, and tried?” --Letter 207, 1899.
http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/gateway.dll/egw-comp/section12951.htm/book13914.htm/chapter13927.htm
Therefore, it’s clear that the “holy flesh” they said Christ had, and that they too could have, involved physical perfection – a flesh like Adam’s, without the effects of sin.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/02/05 08:22 PM
quote:
Rosangela has stated several times that she sees no essential difference in how man is tempted before or after the fall.
True, but my question isn't about how we are tempted, but about the origin and source of temptation. Where do our temptations originate? Do they originate within or without?
If evil angels were dead and gone, would all temptations cease? Or, would we still be tempted? If so, what would be the origin of such temptations?
If evil angels were dead and gone, if they did not exist during the time Jesus walked the earth, could He have been tempted? If so, what would have been the origin of His temptations?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/02/05 08:33 PM
Tom,
What I am saying is that if Ellen White endorses someone’s theological view on a certain point, she doesn’t have to endorse 100% of the opinions of that person involved in that view.
Which is what I said.Ellen White not only endorsed, but said that "The Lord shew me in vision, more than one year ago, that Brother Crosier had the true light, on the cleansing of the Sanctuary, &c; and that it was his will, that Brother C. should write out the view which he gave us in the Day-Star Extra, February 7, 1846. I feel fully authorized to recommend that Extra to every saint." (A Word to the Little Flock, p. 12. April 21, 1847).
What I said was that if Ellen White endorsed someone on a specific point of theology, then she agreed with that person on the point she endorsed. What do you think Ellen White was endorsing, regarding Crosier? It was some point of theology, wasn't it? Do you not agree that she was agreeing with him on whatever it was she was endorsing him about?
Consider the following quote:
quote:
Letters have been coming in to me, affirming that Christ could not have had the same nature as man, for if he had, he would have fallen under similar temptations. If he did not have man's nature, he could not be our example. If he was not a partaker of our nature, he could not have been tempted as man has been. If it were not possible for him to yield to temptation, he could not be our helper. It was a solemn reality that Christ came to fight the battles as man, in man's behalf. His temptation and victory tell us that humanity must copy the Pattern; man must become a partaker of the divine nature.(RH 2/18/90)
She was preaching with Waggoner and Jones on the subject of Christ's humanity, and defended the position they were presenting. Clearly she had the same position they had, which was different from the ones who were questioning their position. She makes the very same argument that I and others have been brining up, "If He were not a partaker of out nature, He could not have been tempted as man has been." This is exactly what post-lapsarians argue, and exactly what pre-lapsarians argue against.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/02/05 08:35 PM
Therefore, it’s clear that the “holy flesh” they said Christ had, and that they too could have, involved physical perfection – a flesh like Adam’s, without the effects of sin.
Thanks for providing the quotes you did. They were interesting. However, your conclusion is not at all clear to me. That is, it is not clear to me that the holy flesh they said Christ had involved physical perfection, at least in the sense of being like Adam. Your conclusion, if true, would mean that they believed that Christ never got tired, for example, sin unfallen Adam never got tired. Are you aware of anything which would support this idea?
At any rate, it's off the point, which is that they Holy Flesh people taught the following:
a)Christ's flesh was like that of unfallan Adam's
b)In order to be sinless, we need flesh like Christ's
In order to counteract this claim, the SDA's argued that Christ's flesh was not like unfallen Adam's, but like fallen Adam's.
quote:
“When we stated that we believed that Christ was born in fallen humanity, they would represent us as believing that Christ sinned,” Haskell wrote, “notwithstanding the fact that we would state our position so clearly that it would seem as though no one could misunderstand us.”
Note that the objections the holy flesh people raised are the very same objections pre-lapsarians raise today.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/02/05 08:53 PM
Old Tom:The purpose of her statement that there were some things she did not disagree with was to allay the stark prejudice there was against Waggoner's message, trying to get those present with her to consider his message. She was saying even for herself there were some things which were different than what she was at that time thinking, just like there were things the others were hearing which were different than what they had been thinking. She was trying to get them to set aside their prejudice.
“Some interpretations of Scripture given by Dr. Waggoner I do not regard as correct. But I believe him to be perfectly honest in his views, and I would respect his feelings and treat him as a Christian gentleman. I have no reason to think that he is not as much esteemed of God as are any of my brethren, and I shall regard him as a Christian brother, so long as there is no evidence that he is unworthy. The fact that he honestly holds some views of Scripture differing from yours or mine is no reason why we should treat him as an offender, or as a dangerous man, and make him the subject of unjust criticism. We should not raise a voice of censure against him or his teachings unless we can present weighty reasons for so doing and show him that he is in error. No one should feel at liberty to give loose rein to the combative spirit.” {1888 164.1}
She said that she didn’t consider some interpretations of the Bible given by Waggoner as correct – and this was just “to allay the stark prejudice” against him?
Yes. If you read through the 1888 materials, this is very clear. Here's a brief description of what happened. Feel free to verify that what I'm presenting is accurate.
Before the 1888 GC, Waggoner and Jones were presenting articles in Signs of the Times regarding righteousness by faith in general, and the law in Galatians specifically. These views were at odds with views that Smith and others were presenting in the Review and Herald.
Ellen White was concerned that we would be presenting different views in our papers, thinking that this would be confusing to those not of our faith. So she counseled that they differing groups get together, and hash things out (i.e. through Bible study). She didn't want them producing conflicting views. Butler did not heed her advice and published a pamphlet entitled "The Law in Galatians".
Waggoner wrote a pamphlet entitled, "The Gospel in Galatians." He did not distribute his pamphlet, because of Ellen White's counsel. When Butler published his pamphlet, Ellen White was upset, but felt it would only be fair to allow Waggoner to present his view publicly as well. So he was invited to do so at the 1888 GC session in Minneapolis.
Ellen White loved what she heard from him. She had never heard him before, and as she put it, "Every fiber of my heart said Amen!" and "precious truths ... which I could respond to with all my heart."
The atmosphere was very charged with a lot of ill will and distrust on the anti-Waggoner/Jones side. So strong was the prejudice against Jone and Waggoner that they (the anti side) questioned whether Sister White had lost her prophetic gift. It was in this setting that she sought to defuse their prejudice, and said, in effect, "Listen to what he has to say. There are even some things which I don't see as correct, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize he is presenting light from God!"
If you take a look at all that was going on, and consider the overall context, you will recognize that the phrase you are attempting to use against Waggoner is using her words entirely in the opposite way from what she intended. In no way was she rebuking Waggoner or lessening her endorsement of him. She was doing exactly what I said she was, which was attempting to lessen the prejudice against Waggoner, and get them to listen to him.
If you examine the relevant documents aroune Nov. of 1888, I am confident you will see I have presented an accurate picture of what was happening.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/03/05 03:41 PM
1-
quote:
What I said was that if Ellen White endorsed someone on a specific point of theology, then she agreed with that person on the point she endorsed.
Ellen White said that Crosier had “the true light about the cleansing of the sanctuary, etc.” and recommended his article.
Correct points about the cleansing of the sanctuary in the article:
1) the sanctuary referred to in Dan. 8:14 was the sanctuary in heaven
2) the cleansing of this sanctuary began at the end of the 2300 days
3) like the earthly sanctuary, the heavenly has two apartments and two phases of ministration
4) Christ entered the holy place at His ascension, not the holy of holies
5) Azazel represents Satan
Wrong points about the cleansing of the sanctuary in the article:
1) the cleansing of the sanctuary involves only the blotting out of sin – not the forgiveness of sin
2) the atonement did not began on earth with the cross, but in heaven at Christ’s ascension
Conclusion: “the true light about the cleansing of the sanctuary, etc.” does not involve everything Crosier said about the cleansing of the sanctuary. She was in agreement with him about most points, but not about all. So, if I want to know what Ellen White thought about the cleansing of the sanctuary, I have to go to Ellen White, not to Crosier.
2- I don’t believe I would be helping you by saying that I do not regard what you say as correct.
3- quote:
That is, it is not clear to me that the holy flesh they said Christ had involved physical perfection, at least in the sense of being like Adam. Your conclusion, if true, would mean that they believed that Christ never got tired, for example, sin unfallen Adam never got tired. Are you aware of anything which would support this idea?
No, the available sources of information are scant. What we can deduce is that they defended that Christ was not subject to physical infirmities (which is true), therefore the same could happen with true believers (which is false); that Christ was not subject to corruption, therefore true believers wouldn’t die (which is false [and contradictory because Christ died]); that Mary was made sinless so that Christ could be born of sinless flesh (which is false); that both Christ and true believers couldn’t be tempted from within, which includes physical temptations (which is false):
“Men and women, supposed to be guided by the Holy Spirit, held meetings in a state of nudity. They talked about holy flesh. They said they were beyond the power of temptation, and they sang, and shouted, and made all manner of noisy demonstrations. These men and women were not bad, but they were deceived and deluded. . . . Satan was moulding the work, and sensuality was the result. The cause of God was dishonored. Truth, sacred truth, was leveled in the dust by human agencies.” {NL 51.3}
quote:
In order to counteract this claim, the SDA's argued that Christ's flesh was not like unfallen Adam's, but like fallen Adam's.
Our difference here, Tom, has to do with where sinful tendencies reside; to you, they, in some way, reside in the body; to me, they reside in the mind; and Christ didn’t possess a carnal mind.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/03/05 03:56 PM
Mike,
quote:
True, but my question isn't about how we are tempted, but about the origin and source of temptation. Where do our temptations originate? Do they originate within or without?
Both.
quote:
If evil angels were dead and gone, would all temptations cease? Or, would we still be tempted? If so, what would be the origin of such temptations?
I really don’t know, but what are you suggesting? That Satan has nothing to do with temptations from within?
quote:
If evil angels were dead and gone, if they did not exist during the time Jesus walked the earth, could He have been tempted? If so, what would have been the origin of His temptations?
Do you mean in a perfect world?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/03/05 06:42 PM
quote:
If evil angels were dead and gone, if they did not exist during the time Jesus walked the earth, could He have been tempted? If so, what would have been the origin of His temptations?
What was the origin of Lucifer's initial temptation?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/04/05 07:01 AM
Rosangela, I agree with you that important aspect of this discussion is where temptations originate and/or reside. My previous questions were asked to clarify this point.
1. If evil angels were dead and gone, never more to tempt and annoy, would temptations bombard us like they do now?
2. If so, why?
3. If not, why not?
I'm trying to understand the origin and source of temptation. I believe temptations originate within, that they are generated and communicated by sinful flesh nature. Satan works through these channels to tempt us from without, but if he was dead and gone our fallen flesh nature would continue to echo the voice of Satan. What do you believe?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/04/05 07:12 AM
John, that Lucifer chose to sin is a mystery. It is not possible to understand how or why he was tempted.
GC 492, 493
It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/03/05 09:10 PM
Old Tom:What I said was that if Ellen White endorsed someone on a specific point of theology, then she agreed with that person on the point she endorsed.
R:Ellen White said that Crosier had “the true light about the cleansing of the sanctuary, etc.” and recommended his article.
Correct points about the cleansing of the sanctuary in the article:
1) the sanctuary referred to in Dan. 8:14 was the sanctuary in heaven
2) the cleansing of this sanctuary began at the end of the 2300 days
3) like the earthly sanctuary, the heavenly has two apartments and two phases of ministration
4) Christ entered the holy place at His ascension, not the holy of holies
5) Azazel represents Satan
Wrong points about the cleansing of the sanctuary in the article:
1) the cleansing of the sanctuary involves only the blotting out of sin – not the forgiveness of sin
2) the atonement did not began on earth with the cross, but in heaven at Christ’s ascension
Conclusion: “the true light about the cleansing of the sanctuary, etc.” does not involve everything Crosier said about the cleansing of the sanctuary. She was in agreement with him about most points, but not about all. So, if I want to know what Ellen White thought about the cleansing of the sanctuary, I have to go to Ellen White, not to Crosier.
My point is that if Ellen White endorsed someone on a specific point of theology, she agreed with the person whom she was endorsing on the specific point she was endorsing.
2- I don’t believe I would be helping you by saying that I do not regard what you say as correct.
I don't understand what you're saying.
3-
Old Tom:In order to counteract this claim, the SDA's argued that Christ's flesh was not like unfallen Adam's, but like fallen Adam's.
R:Our difference here, Tom, has to do with where sinful tendencies reside; to you, they, in some way, reside in the body; to me, they reside in the mind; and Christ didn’t possess a carnal mind.
This is not how I perceive our difference. To the best of my knowledge, I have never made the statement that sinful tendencies reside in the body. I'm about 100% sure I've never made this statement.
I perceive our difference to be that I believe the post-lapsarian position, which Waggoner, Jones, Prescott, Haskell, and all the others I cited earlier, as well as all other SDA's who published in our papers or books until 1947. I also believe Ellen White's position was materially the same as Waggoner, Jones, Prescott, Haskell, as well as all other SDA's who published in our papers or books until 1947. I believe a new position started entering in to the church starting from then (e.g. Bible Readings for the Home was changed at this time), and that this new position is incorrect.
Regarding the mind and the flesh, I cited the article of A. T. Jones, and said several times that I believe his article to be clear, and that I agreed with what he wrote. I also asked you several times if you agreed with the article, but to the best of my knowledge, you never responded.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/04/05 05:59 AM
quote:
John, that Lucifer chose to sin is a mystery. It is not possible to understand how or why he was tempted.
Why do you think he was “tempted”?
Does one have to be “tempted” in order to sin?
What about all the angels which had no sinful flesh, how were they tempted?
What is temptation?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/04/05 08:10 AM
quote:
It is not possible to understand how or why he was tempted.
Why does, "I do not understand how or why" get translated to "It is no possible to understand how or why?"
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/04/05 03:17 PM
quote:
My point is that if Ellen White endorsed someone on a specific point of theology, she agreed with the person whom she was endorsing on the specific point she was endorsing.
She endorsed Crosier on the cleansing of the sanctuary, but there were some aspects in his position that were wrong.
quote:
R: I don’t believe I would be helping you by saying that I do not regard what you say as correct.
T: I don't understand what you're saying.
I was referring to Waggoner. I don’t think that EGW’s saying that she didn’t consider as correct some of his interpretations of the Bible would help to eliminate any prejudice against him. What happens is that she endorsed his general message but said frankly she didn’t agree with some of his interpretations of the Bible.
quote:
This is not how I perceive our difference. To the best of my knowledge, I have never made the statement that sinful tendencies reside in the body. I'm about 100% sure I've never made this statement.
Well, this is how I understood your position. You kept saying that sinful tendencies are genetically transmitted to the brain, which is a part of the body, and not to the mind (which is my position). What is your position after all?
quote:
I believe a new position started entering in to the church starting from then (e.g. Bible Readings for the Home was changed at this time), and that this new position is incorrect.
There was not so much harmony of views before that time as some may believe. According to the 1895 General Conference Bulletin, Jones made several statements about Christ’s human nature during the meetings: "Christ's nature is precisely our nature" (p. 231); "In His human nature there is not a particle of difference between him and you" (p. 233); There is "not a single tendency to sin in you and me that was not in Adam when he stepped out of the garden" (p. 333). All the tendencies to sin that are in human flesh were in his human flesh," yet "not one of them was ever allowed to appear; he conquered them all. And in him we all have victory over them all" (p. 266, 267). Christ "was sinful as we" (p. 302). However, he was confronted by the delegates with some statements of Ellen White, such as that one of Christ sharing human infirmities but not the passions. It was then that he came up with that explanation that Christ was made in the likeness of sinful flesh but not in the likeness of sinful mind. The fact is that the delegates must have found a discrepancy between what he was saying and what Ellen White said, otherwise they wouldn't have confronted him with her words.
Curiously, both Prescott and Waggoner, several years after The Desire of Ages was written, still held the semi-arian concept that Christ’s life was derived from the Father. Ellen White had written clearly about it, but they didn't seem to pay attention to what she was saying.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/04/05 03:39 PM
Mike,
Some quotes about temptation that could help us to analyze the subject:
Through sin the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil. {NL 59.2}
Apart from divine power, no genuine reform can be effected. Human barriers against natural and cultivated tendencies are but as the sand-bank against the torrent. Not until the life of Christ becomes a vitalizing power in our lives can we resist the temptations that assail us from within and from without. {ST, December 1, 1914 par. 9}
You are in danger from corruption within and temptation without. There are evil habits and traits of character which are constantly inclining you to selfishness and weakness of principle. {RH, January 20, 1885 par. 3}
Our foes are within and without. We are assailed by temptations which are numerous and deceiving, the more perilous because not always clearly discerned. Often Satan conquers us by our natural inclinations and appetites. {14MR 294.3}
A man may be trying to serve God, but temptations from within and from without assail him. Satan and his angels urge and coax him to transgress. And perhaps he falls a prey to their temptings. {7MR 400.1}
Just before his cruel death, Jesus said, "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain a victory. He had kept his Father's commandments; and there was no sin in him that Satan could triumph over, no weakness or defect that he could use to his advantage. But we are sinful by nature, and we have a work to do to cleanse the soul-temple of every defilement. {RH, May 27, 1884 par. 11}
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/04/05 04:17 PM
quote:
Just before his cruel death, Jesus said, "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain a victory
This “nothing” was not the body; for he (and his agents) took hold of the body and did to it what they would.
But the “nothing” was in Christ’s spirit; there was nothing there that Satan could lay hold of. Now Christ offers us his holy spirit so that Satan would have no ground in us. All that receive his spirit in their spirit are set free from law of sin and death.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/04/05 08:39 PM
My point is that if Ellen White endorsed someone on a specific point of theology, she agreed with the person whom she was endorsing on the specific point she was endorsing.
She endorsed Crosier on the cleansing of the sanctuary, but there were some aspects in his position that were wrong.
She agreed with Crosier on the points she was endorsing, didn't she? Surely she wouldn't endorse him on something she disagreed with. In regards to Ellen White's endorsements of Prescott's, Jones and Waggoner's position on the nature of Christ, there was no qualification. She simply endorsed the positions as correct. You might be able to find some i or t somewhere that didn't get dotted or crossed if you look hard enough, but the position she was endorsing was the post-lapsarian position, and there is wide agreement as to what this entails. Jesus Christ partook of the flesh of fallen Adam, not unfallen Adam. Christ proved that it is possible for fallen man to keep the law. He was an example for us, and is able to sympathize with us, because He knows by personal experience what we go through. He was tempted in all points as we are tempted; tempted as one who has sinful flesh, like we have. These are general points which all agreed on.
quote: R: I don’t believe I would be helping you by saying that I do not regard what you say as correct.
T: I don't understand what you're saying.
R:I was referring to Waggoner. I don’t think that EGW’s saying that she didn’t consider as correct some of his interpretations of the Bible would help to eliminate any prejudice against him. What happens is that she endorsed his general message but said frankly she didn’t agree with some of his interpretations of the Bible.
Your interpretation here doesn't fit with the facts. If you read through the 1888 Materials, you will see that the scenario I presented was accurate. She wrote a lot about this. There's no need to be in error on this point.
quote:This is not how I perceive our difference. To the best of my knowledge, I have never made the statement that sinful tendencies reside in the body. I'm about 100% sure I've never made this statement.
R:Well, this is how I understood your position. You kept saying that sinful tendencies are genetically transmitted to the brain, which is a part of the body, and not to the mind (which is my position). What is your position after all?
The same as all the others; Prescott, Jones, Waggoner, et al.
quote:I believe a new position started entering in to the church starting from then (e.g. Bible Readings for the Home was changed at this time), and that this new position is incorrect.
There was not so much harmony of views before that time as some may believe. According to the 1895 General Conference Bulletin, Jones made several statements about Christ’s human nature during the meetings: "Christ's nature is precisely our nature" (p. 231); "In His human nature there is not a particle of difference between him and you" (p. 233); There is "not a single tendency to sin in you and me that was not in Adam when he stepped out of the garden" (p. 333). All the tendencies to sin that are in human flesh were in his human flesh," yet "not one of them was ever allowed to appear; he conquered them all. And in him we all have victory over them all" (p. 266, 267). Christ "was sinful as we" (p. 302). However, he was confronted by the delegates with some statements of Ellen White, such as that one of Christ sharing human infirmities but not the passions. It was then that he came up with that explanation that Christ was made in the likeness of sinful flesh but not in the likeness of sinful mind. The fact is that the delegates must have found a discrepancy between what he was saying and what Ellen White said, otherwise they wouldn't have confronted him with her words.
Curiously, both Prescott and Waggoner, several years after The Desire of Ages was written, still held the semi-arian concept that Christ’s life was derived from the Father. Ellen White had written clearly about it, but they didn't seem to pay attention to what she was saying.
There was no difference in the position, which was post-lapsarian. Just in the expression of some finer points of the position. To give an analagous argument on the pre-lapsarian side, the vast majority of pre-lapsarians believe Jesus could not have sinned. Just about the only exceptions to this are SDA's, many of whom, because of Ellen White, believe Christ could have sinned. Pre-lapsarians can argue about this point, but it doesn't impact the fact that the position is pre-lapsarian. It is a point of refinement. Similarly, none of those who were asking for clarification were pre-lapsarian, or held a position materially different than Jones. They were just trying to understand what he was saying, and if his understanding of Christ's taking our sinful nature was the same as Ellen's White's understanding of Christ's taking our sinful nature. There is no evidence that there were any pre-lapsarians involved.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/05/05 01:41 AM
Tom,
The question is very simple, and this is where I want to end my participation in this discussion. There are not three or four options, but just two. Either sinful propensities/passions reside in the mind or in the body. It's either one or the other. Since I don't think that selfishness, pride, covetousness, envy, jealousy, etc. reside in the body, and since Jesus didn't have a sinful mind, to be coherent I have to disagree with you, Prescott, Jones, Waggonner et al.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/05/05 04:17 AM
Rosangela, thank you for the quotes. I think I understand your position now. Satan is the origin and source of all temptations; if evil angels were dead and gone, then temptations would cease to exist.
Based on this understanding of temptation, why doesn't God simply eliminate evil angels and save everyone? People would stop sinning if they weren't tempted, wouldn't they? Do you see what I mean?
Or, did I get it wrong?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/05/05 04:23 AM
quote:
1. Why do you think he was “tempted”?
2. Does one have to be “tempted” in order to sin?
3. What about all the angels which had no sinful flesh, how were they tempted?
4. What is temptation?
1. It's a mystery.
2. Every sin, since the fall of Lucifer, follows a temptation.
3. Lucifer tempted them.
4. A sinful suggestion.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/05/05 07:39 AM
The question is very simple, and this is where I want to end my participation in this discussion. There are not three or four options, but just two.
I agree, there are two positions. The post-lapsarian position, the unanimous church of the SDA church, including Ellen White and all other Adventists who were published in our works until 1947, and the pre-lapsarian position, which started infiltrating the church in 1947.Either sinful propensities/passions reside in the mind or in the body. It's either one or the other. Since I don't think that selfishness, pride, covetousness, envy, jealousy, etc. reside in the body, and since Jesus didn't have a sinful mind, to be coherent I have to disagree with you, Prescott, Jones, Waggonner et al.
This is a straw man argument. No one mentioned by you ever said Christ had a sinful mind. The acticle of Jones I presented makes this as clear as could possibly be made.
The et al. of Prescott, Jones, Waggoner et al. includes Ellen White. There is not a whit of difference between her position and theirs.
I think I asked you at least half a dozen times if you agree with the Jones article, and for some reason you have refused to answer, as far as I can tell (I apologize if you answered my question somewhere and I missed it). I think that article is very clear, is in perfect harmony with Scripture and Ellen White, and very, very easy to understand.
When Ellen White preached with Jones and Waggoner, she defended their position by saying "letters have come to us questioning how Christ could have come in our nature. If He did not come in our nature, He could not have been tempted as we are, and could not have been our example." (paraphrase from memory of the 1890 statement I cited several times). This statement shows:
1)People with the pre-lapsarian position from outside our church were questioning the post-lapsarion position that she, Jones and Waggoner were preaching.
2)She endorsed Jones and Waggoner's position.
3)She preached the same position they did.
Ellen White's position is very simply stated in the Desire of Ages, page 49:
quote:
But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life.
The portion in bold is significant. It makes clear that it was not simply "innocent infirmities" which Christ accepted, but the results of the working of the great law of heredity He accepted "is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors." What results are these? Every kind of vice and sin. This is the heredity He accepted, a heredity just like ours. He did this to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life.
This is simple, and very easy to understand.
Over and over again, Ellen White wrote that Christ took fallen nature proving that we, fallen man, could perfection obey the law of God. Clearly if Christ overcame the law in a nature different than ours, He proved nothing in relation to our nature.
As Waggoner puts it:
"A little thought will be sufficient to show anybody that if Christ took upon Himself the likeness of man in order that He might redeem man, it must have been sinful man that He was made like, for it is sinful man that He came to redeem." (Christ and His Rightouesness)
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/05/05 08:22 AM
quote:
1. It's a mystery.
2. Every sin, since the fall of Lucifer, follows a temptation.
3. Lucifer tempted them.
4. A sinful suggestion.
Is sin primarily about doing something bad? Or is it about believing a lie about God?
If sin is primarily about believeing a lie, then the remedy for it is the revelation of truth.
quote:
The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. (ST 1/20/90)
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/05/05 04:39 PM
quote:
3. What about all the angels which had no sinful flesh, how were they tempted?
MM: 3. Lucifer tempted them.
4. What is temptation?
MM: 4. A sinful suggestion
3. With what did Lucifer tempt them since they had no sinful flesh?
4. What is a sinful suggestion when you do not have sinful flesh?
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/06/05 07:36 AM
quote:
This is a straw man argument. No one mentioned by you ever said Christ had a sinful mind. The acticle of Jones I presented makes this as clear as could possibly be made.
Tom,
I didn’t say any of them believed Christ had a sinful mind. The only point of agreement here is exactly that Christ didn’t have a sinful mind. But if the tendencies to sin all these people believed Christ had were not in His mind, the only other possible option is that they were in His body. What I said is that, since I don’t believe selfishness, pride, covetousness, etc. can reside in the body, I couldn’t agree with this position.
What any of us may think Ellen White believed is a matter of opinion. Some of her statements seem to favor one position, and some seem to favor the other, and it is clear that her endorsement of someone’s position was generally not full but qualified. She clearly believed that Christ came in our nature; what remains to be determined is if this involves just the physical aspect of it or if it also involves tendencies to sin. If this had already been determined we wouldn’t be discussing it today.
By the way, how do you know that it is your interpretation of the text that is the correct one?
"It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life." {DA 48.5}
Now, is there or isn't there the possibility that she is referring here just to physical results?
"Those who lived in the days of Noah and Abraham resembled the angels in form, comeliness, and strength. But every succeeding generation have been growing weaker and more subject to disease, and their life has been of shorter duration. Satan has been learning how to annoy and enfeeble the race." {EW 184.2}
How can you be so sure that she is not referring to the physical weakening of the race as the history of His earthly ancestors, but is referring, instead, to "every sort of vice and sin" whose tendencies would have been transmitted to Him (something that is not in the text)?
[ November 05, 2005, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Rosangela ]
Posted By: Colin
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/05/05 08:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
quote:
This is a straw man argument. No one mentioned by you ever said Christ had a sinful mind. The acticle of Jones I presented makes this as clear as could possibly be made.
Tom,
I didn’t say any of them believed Christ had a sinful mind. The only point of agreement here is exactly that Christ didn’t have a sinful mind. But if the tendencies to sin all these people believed Christ had were not in His mind, the only other possible option is that they were in His body. What I said is that, since I don’t believe selfishness, pride, covetousness, etc. can reside in the body, I couldn’t agree with this position.
Colin here,...yes, hello, this is my very first ever post:...thank you, thank you. Intro's over; I've been following this thread all the way, so.
Between the mind and body sinful tendencies can surely be sourced between the body below the neck and the brain while propensities (habits) can be sparked in the mind - thoughts. In Romans 7 (different thread, I know...) the 'law of sin' rules in the body while the 'law of God' wants to rule in the mind. Tendencies are sourced in the body - for its own pleasure seeking, but the mind is naturally inclined to opt for those suggestions. Having started sinning, the mind can spark further suggestions, but the brain and flesh are the real source. Thus the carnal mind is the sinner's mind used to sinning.
The carnal mind is "enmity against God" (Rom 8...), but, once the convicted sinner is converted to the power of the Spirit which creates the new mind, then tendencies to sin must be sourced in the body for the believer to deal with - with the Spirit, or without the Spirit.
Hence the body must the primary source of temptations....
quote:
What any of us may think Ellen White believed is a matter of opinion. Some of her statements seem to favor one position, and some seem to favor the other, and it is clear that her endorsement of someone’s position was generally not full but qualified. She clearly believed that Christ came in our nature; what remains to be determined is if this involves just the physical aspect of it or if it also involves tendencies to sin. If this had already been determined we wouldn’t be discussing it today. [/QB]
Got to dash to celebrate Guy Fawkes night here in the United Kingdom - Nov 5th...Shall respond to your second paragraph very soon.
A blessed Sabbath, what's left of it at your end,
Colin
Posted By: Colin
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/06/05 12:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Colin:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
[QUOTE]
What any of us may think Ellen White believed is a matter of opinion. Some of her statements seem to favor one position, and some seem to favor the other, and it is clear that her endorsement of someone’s position was generally not full but qualified. She clearly believed that Christ came in our nature; what remains to be determined is if this involves just the physical aspect of it or if it also involves tendencies to sin. If this had already been determined we wouldn’t be discussing it today.
Got to dash to celebrate Guy Fawkes night here in the United Kingdom - Nov 5th...Shall respond to your second paragraph very soon.
A blessed Sabbath, what's left of it at your end,
Colin
Right, back again....EGW's position has only been debated since after the 2nd World War. In the late 1930's F D Nichols (Review Editor-i-C; Editor of the Bible Commentary 1957) wrote in Answers to Objections that Adventists rightly taught Christ's assumption of our sinful humanity, so he insisted that the objection was correct!
The documentation by Jean Zurcher PhD in Touched with Our Feelings shows a unanimous teaching until the late 40's, such that our modern scholarship disagrees with their predecessors, with a radical break as shown in that book.
Centering sinfulness in the mind rather than the body appears to be how the wording changed, particularly prominently in the 1950's, with Christ's "sinless human nature": as defined by the "mind of Christ" instead of his human body. The defence for this change isn't good enough: "sinful human nature" was supposed to be imbalanced, not highlighting the "mind of Christ" sufficiently. We SDA's were never seriously imbalancing Christ's sinful humanity by forgetting his righteous mind and character.
Such was the biased perception of the Evangelical Christians who raised the objection in the first place!
The new thinking amongst us hasn't helped, has it...?
But, back to Scripture please, since this definition of 'human nature' by the mind rather than the body may well not tally with the Bible. The now infamous "likeness of sinful flesh" refers to the whole nature, granted. Born of a woman necessitates no exceptions in sinful human nature from her side for the Infant. To be high priest chosen from among his brethern obligates suffering the burden of morally degenerate flesh, separate from the mind...since Jesus was conceived with a mind imbued with the Holy Spirit - which didn't come from his mother(!).
Jesus' example given us in Lk 9:23 involves denying self, taking up one's cross daily and following the will of our Father. So, by his own testimony Jesus took on his divinity our humanity with its selfishness, in order to crucify it daily by faith.
Bringing the saints into the fray, we are reminded that they have the mind of Christ. How does the humanity of the saints remain sinful if they too have a righteous mind by living faith - as Christ had, for the sinful tendency of the nature would have been removed when the carnal mind was put to death by faith?
Doesn't Jesus' human nature's sinfulness help sort out our own, and clarify how perfectly Christ saves us from our nature?
Colin
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/06/05 12:23 AM
Hi, Colin, and welcome. The problem I see is how let's say, pride, or envy, can be in any way related to the body. This simply does not make sense.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/06/05 12:39 AM
quote:
Right, back again....EGW's position has only been debated since after the 2nd World War. In the late 1930's F D Nichols (Review Editor-i-C; Editor of the Bible Commentary 1957) wrote in Answers to Objections that Adventists rightly taught Christ's assumption of our sinful humanity, so he insisted that the objection was correct!
Interesting, Colin, when you mentioned this, I verified my copy of Answers to Objections, which says "Copyright, 1932, 1947, 1952, by the Review and Herald Publishing Association". Responding to the charge that Adventists believe Christ's "sinful nature" to be also "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" as all other human beings (Objection 94), Nichol states that "Christ, the 'last Adam,' possessed, on His human side, a nature like that the 'first man Adam,' a nature free from every defiling taint of sin, but capable of responding to sin..." (p. 393).
Was the answer different in 1932? If so Nichol must have changed his mind.
Posted By: Colin
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/06/05 12:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
Hi, Colin, and welcome. The problem I see is how let's say, pride, or envy, can be in any way related to the body. This simply does not make sense.
G o o d question! : is it as simple as the difference between the sinful mind and the carnal mind?
Granted sinful attitudes are not physical, generally. So, bad attitudes are sourced in the carnal mind, which is enmity to God.
Sourcing pride or envy, etc., in the sinful mind spells the end of sinful human natures for partakers of Christ's divine Spirit, does it not? - see my previous post about your understanding rendering the saints with sinless human natures like their Saviour (speaking in the 3rd person), when the sinful mind defines the nature and is experientially crucified by faith....
That isn't Biblical, surely.
Colin
[ November 05, 2005, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Colin ]
Posted By: Colin
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/06/05 01:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
quote:
Right, back again....EGW's position has only been debated since after the 2nd World War. In the late 1930's F D Nichols (Review Editor-i-C; Editor of the Bible Commentary 1957) wrote in Answers to Objections that Adventists rightly taught Christ's assumption of our sinful humanity, so he insisted that the objection was correct!
Interesting, Colin, when you mentioned this, I verified my copy of Answers to Objections, which says "Copyright, 1932, 1947, 1952, by the Review and Herald Publishing Association". Responding to the charge that Adventists believe Christ's "sinful nature" to be also "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" as all other human beings (Objection 94), Nichol states that "Christ, the 'last Adam,' possessed, on His human side, a nature like that the 'first man Adam,' a nature free from every defiling taint of sin, but capable of responding to sin..." (p. 393).
Was the answer different in 1932? If so Nichol must have changed his mind.
I do beg his pardon: it was the 1952 edition I was quoting. But first, that the objection asserted us to hold Christ's humanity as conclusively "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" was libellous of them, given our balanced understanding (which you haven't quoted yet, from my post).
Nichol's own position, sanctioned by the GC President of the time, asserted: "Christ won [over temptations] despite the fact that he took on him 'the likeness of sinful flesh', with all that that implies of the baleful and weakening effects of sin on the body and nervous system of man and its effects on his environment - 'can any good thing come out of Nazareth?'" (p. 393)
On 'sinful flesh', he wrote (in view of Calvinists adding to it what we do not: "Thus...we lay ourselves open to misunderstanding. True, we mean by that term simply that Christ 'took on him the seed of Abraham' and was made 'in the likeness of sinful flesh', but critics are not willing to believe this." (p.397)
The bit you quoted from Nichol about no defiling taint of sin merely excludes sinning, not a degraded nature.
Any author prior to 1952 you care to quote who won't take 'likeness of sinful flesh' as it reads?
Colin
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/06/05 02:22 AM
quote:
Granted sinful attitudes are not physical, generally. So, bad attitudes are sourced in the carnal mind, which is enmity to God.
But where were Jesus' "sinful propensities"? In His carnal mind?
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/06/05 02:30 AM
quote:
The bit you quoted from Nichol about no defiling taint of sin merely excludes sinning, not a degraded nature.
He said Christ had a nature like that of "the first man Adam" - a degraded nature?
Posted By: Colin
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/06/05 02:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
quote:
Granted sinful attitudes are not physical, generally. So, bad attitudes are sourced in the carnal mind, which is enmity to God.
But where were Jesus' "sinful propensities"? In His carnal mind?
Clearly Jesus didn't develop a carnal mind..., though he was burdened with the option of a sinful mind. Nor did he have sinful propensities - you winding me up??
EGW's 'propensities' and 'tendencies' must agree with the Bible according to her intended meaning, not the Oxford dictionary. Tendencies are harmless unless opted for in the spiritual battle; propensities are developed by habitually opting for sin.
Whereas we may disagree over EGW's meaning, Rom 8:3 remains crystal clear. EGW can easily be found to agree with this and every Scripture, though.
Colin
Posted By: Colin
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/06/05 03:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
quote:
The bit you quoted from Nichol about no defiling taint of sin merely excludes sinning, not a degraded nature.
He said Christ had a nature like that of "the first man Adam" - a degraded nature?
Oh, we do have a good exchange going here ![[Animated Laughter]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
, though I can't stay much longer - midnight here, and I'm doing St John Ambulance first aid cover in the morning for a cross country run.
Sister White used the word degraded..., and Nichol used Rom 8:3...:sinful. Nichol's wording quoted by you must be the post-fall Adam. Given her 'degraded', and his 'sinful flesh', Nichol's phrase "like the first man Adam, a nature free from every defiling taint of sin, but capable of responding to sin..." must mean both sinful nature of fallen Adam and lack of sinning - "free from every defiling taint of sin", yet capable of falling to temptation....No defilement, but human and sinful.
What an example! The Second Adam in all the glory of God.
Colin
Posted By: Colin
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/06/05 03:29 AM
I must hastily add. I hold to Jesus assuming sinful flesh not primarily for being my example, but primarily for being my Saviour. That's another topic, but it needed clarifying: Jesus as our Example is secondary at most in the reasons for taking our sinful humanity as his own.
Colin
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/06/05 03:54 AM
This is am important point you're bringing up Colin.
I agree with you thoughts.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/06/05 06:18 AM
quote:
Originally posted by John Boskovic:
3. With what did Lucifer tempt them since they had no sinful flesh?
4. What is a sinful suggestion when you do not have sinful flesh?
3. His words.
4. A temptation.
As I see it, there are two basic sources of temptation - 1) sinful flesh nature, and 2) evil angels. The first originates inside of us and the second originates outside of us. Before the fall of mankind, we could be tempted from the outside only. But afterwards, we could be tempted from within and from without.
The orign and source of internally generated temptations is sinful flesh nature, which is neither the mind (thoughts) or the body (organs). They (i.e. temptations) are manifested through our organs and thoughts.
The origin and source of externally generated temptations is, essentially, evil angels. They are manifested through our sinful flesh nature via our mind and body.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/06/05 07:03 AM
By way of clarifiaction, evil humans can tempt as well as evil angels, can they not?
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/06/05 04:11 PM
Mike,
I think the subject of temptation deserves a thread of its own.
Posted By: Colin
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/06/05 11:20 PM
Before "temptation" 'leaves' us on this thread, reiterating the explanation of Lucifer's fall into sin given in Patriarchs and Prophets is useful. Generally we avoid it as disagreement with it is not always noted by the listeners, it being an unrighteous notion.
Lucifer was initially confused about his status next to the Son of God given the similarity of their appearances in his mind. This confusion gave rise to the thought of possibly perfect similarity, and the notion of equality was conceived...only to be countered by the Father's personal and then public counsel that his Son was divine and equal with himself, and Lucifer as a creature was quite obviously excluded from equality. Lucifer's iniquity was to disregard this counsel.
Following his imagination was Lucifer's problem when it clashed with God's truth. Even the conception of that notion mentioned above wasn't sinful until it was exposed as sinful when cherished against revealed truth.
For ourselves, even after getting to heaven, thoughts of selfishness may well arise, but the sin of harbouring those thoughts shall not rise a second time afresh in God's universe.
Clearly Lucifer was wrong on two counts - thinking he could be equal with God's Son, and insisting on that thought, but only the second point was sinful, given his knowledge at that point.
God's will for his universe is simply that errant thoughts are nipped in the bud for being errant, as selfish. So, temptation is possible without any evil angels or wicked humans...
Colin
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/07/05 03:16 AM
What happens to our sinful flesh nature when are born again (the title of this thread)?
I believe it remains to tempt us, the same as it did before we were born again. But, as born again believers we are dead to sin, self, and Satan, and, in Christ, we are free to sin or not to sin, free to act out or not to act out the unholy suggestions generated by our sinful flesh nature.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/07/05 03:47 AM
Thanks Colin for bringing out the "imagination" side of things in your last post, as it compliments (makes up for what I am not covering in) the comments here in regards to "flesh".
On the topic of "sinful flesh nature"
The point about our understanding of “sinful flesh” or the more nebulous “sinful nature” is the division between flesh and spirit; the governmental position of these and the issue of sin, or the improper governing of these.
When God created man, He created him with physical and semi-physical capabilities as well as spiritual capabilities. To bring this to simple understanding of what is at stake in the transaction of sin, we need to understand where and what responsibility was placed by God.
Simply put if God wanted the responsibility to rest in the physical or semi-physical aspect, he could have easily done so. That is to say that if the matter of deciding whether something was or was not to be committed, lay in the physical nature, then God could have simply programmed the “flesh” so that when man would approach the forbidden tree, he would have been repulsed by let’s say the particular smell which his body chemistry would have been programmed to find repelling.
But such was not God’s design. God never designed man that he should live, being directed by the “flesh” regardless of the state it was in (pre-sin or post-sin). He did give man capabilities in the flesh, such as the five senses, etc. But these were only meant to be information communicators and not governing factors. Man was to be governed by the “word”. Thus God spoke to man and told him not to eat of the tree.
So what is it that transpired when man broke the governance of the “word”? He took it upon himself to listen to the flesh (he put his faith/ trust in his own physical senses). However God’s design was still in effect; and the word continues to be.
So the fallen nature has to do with our spirit being subject to the flesh by the wisdom of our faith trusting it. So the problem is not the flesh itself. The problem is our disposition to use it as source for governing. Hence the carnal mind. However the “word” is calling us to take our faith away from the body (flesh) and to place it in God where he designed it to be.
So simply put the problem is not in the flesh, but in the fact that we have subjected our spirit to it by faith. The gospel calls us to remove our faith from the “flesh” and to trust the “word”.
So that which is sinful, is not the flesh per say, but the “modus operandi” which has put the flesh as the governing source instead of the word. This has been done in our spirit by our will through faith. When one is born again, this “modus operandi” (state of faith) is ended and a new one established. Faith is removed from the flesh and placed in the “living word”.
So the “old sinful nature” “modus operandi” ceases to exist (crucified with Christ). The flesh remains, but that has never been the problem. The problem is and was its improper place in the order of governance which God never designed for it to have.
Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
[ November 06, 2005, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/07/05 06:10 AM
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/07/05 08:54 AM
quote:
So what is it that transpired when man broke the governance of the “word”? He took it upon himself to listen to the flesh (he put his faith/ trust in his own physical senses).
It wasn't just the flesh that man trusted in, but in the lie about God which the serpent told. The serpent led man to doubt that God had the best of interest of His cretures in mind, and instead led him to view Him in a false light; as arbitrary, harsh and severe. And so it is that even Christians (especially Christians, unfortunately, as evidenced by the monstrous idea that God would torture those who reject Him for all eternity) view God as arbitrary and His ways as arbitrary.
But they're not. The principles of God's law are the only principles which lead to life, and to act contrary to these principles is to bring about death, because the principles of life are the principles of unselfish, self-sacrificing love (partaking of the divine nature, as Rosangela would say), whereas the principles of death are the principles of putting self in first place.
Christ won the victory on our behalf by crucifying self, from the cradle to the grave. The carnal mind, the enmity, was abolished in Christ's flesh. By faith, we may be crucified with Christ, so that we no longer live (that is, "I"), but Christ lives in us; that is, our spirit is subject to God's spirit; our mind (or attitude) is the mind of Christ (to put the interests of others above our own, and to humble ourselves, even to the point of death); we trust in His justice, His righteous, other than our own.
As the Spirit of Prophecy puts it:
quote:
“When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness.” Christ’s Object Lessons, 312.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/07/05 03:20 PM
quote:
It wasn't just the flesh that man trusted in, but in the lie about God which the serpent told.
Yes Tom, that is very true. Thank you for adding that.
My post above was especially meant to help those who seem to think that the “flesh” is so much the problem. The problem is not the flesh itself but that faith has been put in it, so it rules. Thus the enemy can easily tempt through the 5 senses, etc. and continue to influence and infuse a false picture of God.
So while my post covered only one facet of the issues; it seems to be a big one for some, according to this thread and the one on Romans 7.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/07/05 06:43 PM
The mind of the old man is crucified when we are born again. Therefore, the only source of internally generated temptations is - sinful flesh, which is also the channel through which we are tempted externally.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/08/05 07:41 AM
How much effect and influence or suggestive temptation can one have upon you whom you deplorably distrust?
A temptation is only a temptation when you have a value for that which you are being tempted with.
If you do not care for something, you cannot be tempted by that which you do not care for.
quote:
for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/08/05 05:57 PM
John, such a thing sounds wonderful. But let me make sure I'm understanding you corectly. Are you saying that if we are truly converted we will not be tempted internally or externally?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/11/05 03:41 AM
Yes it is wonderful,
You cannot control the “birds” that fly by your window, but you certainly can control whether they come in your house, and you can control whether you sit at the window and watch them.
The point is that when faith has been severed with the “flesh” and the “old man”; when the enmity which was between us and God is now placed between us and the flesh or the carnal mind; when faith has established that you live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, and that you will not trust yourself, then the doors to temptation are closed.
The question is who is the master of the house and if he has been given permission to cleanse it. Too many have the Lord only as a guest and not as the master of their house.
Joh 10:10 … I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/12/05 07:07 AM
In saying that the doors to temptation are closed are you implying we cannot be tempted internally or externally? Or, that we will not act them out? Can our sinful flesh nature continue to tempt us from within with unholy thoughts and feelings?
Also, when we invite Jesus into the house of our hearts and minds, what kind of cleaning is left for Him to do? Are there closets of unknown sins that have yet to be discovered and revealed to us?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/11/05 09:36 PM
quote:
Also, when we invite Jesus into the house of our hearts and minds, what kind of cleaning is left for Him to do? Are there closets of unknown sins that have yet to be discovered and revealed to us?
This is an excellent question, although we should be careful not to think of "sins" in a superficial way. The sin of sins is the crucifixion of Christ. Are there depths of guilt that we have relating to this sin of which we are unaware? Is there a repentance within us which should deepen as we become more fully aware of our involvement? Are there depths of truth regarding ourselves, and God, to be revealed to us, which will result in cleansing?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/12/05 06:14 PM
More excellent questions, Tom. Thank you. A couple more now to help clarify the issue. Does the work of deepening repentance reveal unknown sins, character flaws Jesus hasn't yet brought to our attention? Or, is it a powerful process of understanding more fully how our past sins contributed to awesome price Jesus paid for us on the cross to secure our salvation?
The depths of guilt and the depths of truth that you referred to, things about us, things within us that require cleaning - are they things that will rise up against us in judgment if we do not cooperate with the Holy Spirit to remedy or remove them? Or, is it part of the powerful process that will go on for eternity, throughout the ceaseless ages, as God opens the eyes of our understanding regarding the cross more and more fully and deeply?
1SM 403
The theme of redemption will employ the minds of the redeemed through all eternity. There will be new and rich developments made manifest in the plan of salvation throughout eternal ages. {1SM 403.2}
DA 494, 495
The only way in which we can gain a more perfect apprehension of truth is by keeping the heart tender and subdued by the Spirit of Christ. The soul must be cleansed from vanity and pride, and vacated of all that has held it in possession, and Christ must be enthroned within. Human science is too limited to comprehend the atonement. The plan of redemption is so far-reaching that philosophy cannot explain it. It will ever remain a mystery that the most profound reasoning cannot fathom. The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience. Only he who sees his own sinfulness can discern the preciousness of the Saviour. {DA 494.4}
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/14/05 10:19 PM
The judgment just reveals what we are, doesn't it? That is, what is in us. So the answer is, yes, whatever is in us will appear in the judgment. The things we are unaware of because we haven't had light about them will not "count against us", but nevertheless have the effect of negatively impacting the work God has in mind for the 144,000.
It's an interesting point you bring up about a cleansing going on throughout eternity. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I think the way you put it is valid, and glad you mentioned it, as it gives me food for thought.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/15/05 06:08 AM
quote:
In saying that the doors to temptation are closed are you implying we cannot be tempted internally or externally? Or, that we will not act them out? Can our sinful flesh nature continue to tempt us from within with unholy thoughts and feelings?
Your questions MM lead and think in terms of the inverse and that is negative to eternal life. Instead of seeking the way of good, they are dealing with resisting temptation. They reveal that the dealing is with the old man; therefore it is not crucified in your thinking, and insofar as it is not, Christ is crucified.
Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
So therefore for temptation to come there has to be lust, and for lust to exist there has to be the owner of it. So “his own lust”. This is how it is with those who are carnal, who at best are in the way of repentance and baptism of John (not to be despised-but a step that prepares the way), and at worst pharisaic. Obviously if the lust is there, it has not been crucified. But they which are led by the spirit are as:
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Now think about that what it means. If the flesh with the affections and lusts is crucified, where will the temptation come from? How will you be drawn away? Perhaps this would need some prayerful thought.
quote:
Also, when we invite Jesus into the house of our hearts and minds, what kind of cleaning is left for Him to do? Are there closets of unknown sins that have yet to be discovered and revealed to us?
Again these questions are thinking in terms of the inverse which never brings righteousness. It is the way Satan would like us to look at things. By searching for potential unknown sins, we will never in a million years even begin to come to satisfaction. In fact we will become more and more cynical. It is called doubt and accusation. It is exactly these insinuations of potential sins which Satan leveled against Job. So if we think in terms of potential or hidden sins, we think according to the principles of Satan. The thought of potential sins is rooted in doubt and accusation. Let us never think that Christ ever thinks or works according to these principles.
God’s way is the way of faith and trust. The position of the child of God is that of:
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
God’s way is the way of life, it is uplifting, it is sanctifying, it is glorifying. Where there is goodwill, there is no illwill. Where there is faith there is no doubt. Where there is love there is no hate. So the cleansing is from sin to righteousness; from thinking in terms of sin to thinking in terms of righteousness.
Great is thy faithfulness oh God my Father!
[ November 15, 2005, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/15/05 07:30 AM
quote:
The judgment just reveals what we are, doesn't it? That is, what is in us. So the answer is, yes, whatever is in us will appear in the judgment. The things we are unaware of because we haven't had light about them will not "count against us", but nevertheless have the effect of negatively impacting the work God has in mind for the 144,000.
Judgment!
Judgment according to "?"...
The righteousness according to faith.
The righteousness according to doubt.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/15/05 06:33 PM
John, your understanding of the system of salvation, the dynamics of temptation, lead me to wonder how Jesus could have been tempted in all points as we are. You seem to be saying that in Christ we cannot be tempted, that our lusts and affections are dead.
Here's what Sister White wrote about lusts and affections. Do you agree?
AH 127, 128
We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. {AH 127.2}
4T 365
Ungovernable passion will not be subdued in a moment; but your lifework is before you to rid the garden of the heart of the poisonous weeds of impatience, faultfinding, and an overbearing disposition. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh, with its affections and lusts; but the brutish part of your nature takes the lines of control and guides the spiritual. This is God's order reversed. {4T 365.3}
AG 321
To renounce their own will, perhaps their chosen object of affection or pursuit, requires an effort, at which many hesitate and falter and turn back. Yet this battle must be fought by every heart that is truly converted. We must war against temptations without and within. We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ. . . . After this union is formed, it can be preserved only by continual, earnest, painstaking effort. Christ exercises His power to preserve and guard this sacred tie, and the dependent, helpless sinner must act his part with untiring energy, or Satan by his cruel, cunning power will separate him from Christ. {AG 321.4}
4T 47
Some feel their need of the atonement, and with the recognition of this need, and the desire for a change of heart, a struggle begins. To renounce their own will, perhaps their chosen objects of affection or pursuit, requires an effort, at which many hesitate and falter and turn back. Yet this battle must be fought by every heart that is truly converted. We must war against temptations without and within. We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ. As the dry and apparently lifeless branch is grafted into the living tree, so may we become living branches of the True Vine. And the fruit which was borne by Christ will be borne by all His followers. After this union is formed, it can be preserved only by continual, earnest, painstaking effort. Christ exercises His power to preserve and guard this sacred tie, and the dependent, helpless sinner must act his part with untiring energy, or Satan by his cruel, cunning power will separate him from Christ. {5T 47.1}
Every Christian must stand on guard continually, watching every avenue of the soul where Satan might find access. He must pray for divine help and at the same time resolutely resist every inclination to sin. By courage, by faith, by persevering toil, he can conquer. But let him remember that to gain the victory Christ must abide in him and he in Christ. {5T 47.2}
5T 650
The enemy will seek to intrude himself even amid your religious exercises. Every avenue will need to be faithfully guarded lest selfishness and pride become interwoven with your work. If self has really been crucified, with the affections and lusts, the fruit will appear in good works to the glory of God. I entreat you, in the fear of God, not to let your works degenerate. Be consistent, symmetrical Christians. When the heart has given its affections to Christ, old things have passed away, and all things have become new. {5T 650.2}
UL 218
This the Word of God explicitly teaches, but the Lord cannot work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure unless we crucify self, with the affections and lusts, at every step. {UL 218.4}
AA 560, 561
So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. {AA 560.3}
John, these quotes tell me that we can, in Christ, control our affections and lusts by resiting them, by bringing them into subjection to a sanctified mind and will, by maturing in the fruits of Spirit. But they also tell me that we cannot eliminate them, that we cannot tame them, that we cannot make them holy. In Christ we can and will refuse to act out them, but we cannot get rid of them.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/15/05 06:47 PM
quote:
It's an interesting point you bring up about a cleansing going on throughout eternity. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I think the way you put it is valid, and glad you mentioned it, as it gives me food for thought.
Great. Sister White wrote that the path to perfection is infinite, that it continues throughout eternity. It's an advancement from one stage of perfection to another. From faith to faith, from grace to grace, from glory to glory - more and more unto the perfect day. Obviously, therefore, it cannot include finding and crucifying new and unknown defective traits of character, at least not in heaven or the new earth.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/15/05 11:04 PM
MM, of course perfection and growth go on throughout eternity. It was thinking of it terms of cleansing that was a new thought to me.
John wrote, "Your questions MM lead and think in terms of the inverse and that is negative to eternal life." I see this too. We need to consider the whole picture of course, but the good news of God's character should outshine all else. It's as we behold the goodness of God that we are changed into the same image.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/15/05 11:13 PM
In James 1 where it talks about temptation, the word "lust" is simply the word "desire". If you look at the NJKV, for example, you will see it is translated "desire" rather than the archaic "lust", which has a negative connotation to us which it didn't when the KJV was written.
As we are tempted because we are drawn of our own desires, so was Christ. Christ took our nature, and was tempted as we are tempted. James defines how human beings are tempted, and that definition must apply to Christ as well, or He could not have been tempted in any point as we are tempted, let alone all.
The victory Christ provided for us was by crucifiction. Christ crucified self by denying Himself throughout His whole life. He "please not Himself." He sought not His own will, but the will of His Father. It was by His self-denial, leading all the way to death, even the death of the cross, that He abolished the enmity in His flesh, which is our flesh. We achieve victory by being crucified with Christ. We do nothing which Christ has not done before; in fact, anythin we do is only possible because Christ has opened the door.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/16/05 03:26 AM
Tom, I agree. There needs to be a balance, but when one side is emphasized to the exclusion of the other, it is needful to correct the imbalance. Like emphasizing the sabbath above the other commandments because the rest of the world is falling for the Sunday. I am beginning to suspect that John's views are eerily similar to holy flesh.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/16/05 03:41 AM
quote:
John, your understanding of the system of salvation, the dynamics of temptation, lead me to wonder how Jesus could have been tempted in all points as we are. You seem to be saying that in Christ we cannot be tempted, that our lusts and affections are dead.
MM, it seems more of interest to you that Christ was altogether like a sinner is, than that we are to be like him. So what you are proposing is that Christ needs to have governed himself in the ways and manner of this world, and then fight in the manner of this world with himself, resisting temptation. That is not what the gospel is about.
Christ took on the same sinful flesh like you and I have. Christ took on the same faculties; physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual that you and I have. However, he did not govern them in the same way that the unconverted do. The means and ways of governance, that are his, are and always were available to every being. The fact that fallen man governs himself amiss and not the way Christ is governed and therefore suffer resulting temptation and sin, does not mean that he needs to govern himself along their foolish ways in order to save them. Satan really hoped that Christ would buy into that idea and that by some means he would cause him to govern himself according to the ways of this world.
I have been talking about the way of governing of Christ.
quote:
In James 1 where it talks about temptation, the word "lust" is simply the word "desire".
That is very true, Tom. However, this is even more difficult for people to accept. Most can reckon that lust is wrong, but not many can see that there is anything wrong with their desires. Not that the faculty of desire is wrong, but giving it improper governmental position is what causes temptation. So when it says they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, it means no more that the faculty of desire has been crucified, as that the flesh is physically crucified. But what it does mean is that all governmental authority has been removed from them and given to Christ.
People like to be “Christians” and at the same time retain all the worldly (religious) governmental structure. This has nothing to do with the way of Christ.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/16/05 03:51 AM
quote:
I am beginning to suspect that John's views are eerily similar to holy flesh.
How interesting! According to my recollection, it was MM who said that "holy flesh"(body) was needed before we can be free from sin in the thread of Romans 7.
I remember contesting that point, and standing on the position that the flesh is of no consequence, but that it is the spirit that counts.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/16/05 04:01 AM
I wonder how this lines up with your "holy flesh" idea.
quote:
MM: Also, when we invite Jesus into the house of our hearts and minds, what kind of cleaning is left for Him to do? Are there closets of unknown sins that have yet to be discovered and revealed to us?
Again these questions are thinking in terms of the inverse which never brings righteousness. It is the way Satan would like us to look at things. By searching for potential unknown sins, we will never in a million years even begin to come to satisfaction. In fact we will become more and more cynical. It is called doubt and accusation. It is exactly these insinuations of potential sins which Satan leveled against Job. So if we think in terms of potential or hidden sins, we think according to the principles of Satan. The thought of potential sins is rooted in doubt and accusation. Let us never think that Christ ever thinks or works according to these principles.
God’s way is the way of faith and trust. The position of the child of God is that of:
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
God’s way is the way of life, it is uplifting, it is sanctifying, it is glorifying. Where there is goodwill, there is no illwill. Where there is faith there is no doubt. Where there is love there is no hate. So the cleansing is from sin to righteousness; from thinking in terms of sin to thinking in terms of righteousness.
Great is thy faithfulness oh God my Father!
The question was whether Jesus is in the house as guest or master.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/16/05 10:42 AM
MM, it appears to me that John and I view most things very, very similarly. He has a different way (to me) of expressing himself, so I need to be patient to understand what he is saying. But, for example, his thoughts about our rightesousness vs. God's righteousness are I find to be both profound and completely correct.
To me the most important issue is God's character. Man was lied to, believe the lie, and must be healed from that lie. Jesus Christ came to reveal the truth about God, and we are healed when we believe that truth. There is absolutely nothing arbitrary either about God, or His law, or His judgment, or the atonement, or anything God does.
I think John would agree with me on these points.
We seem to be disagreeing some on the points we are discussing here, but they are to my mind minor compared to the others, and I'm not completely sure we're not in harmony. I'd like to ask some more questions, and find out what he really means.
I agreed with this sentiment that you seem to dwell on the negative rather than the positive.
Well, to my question for John.
quote:
Not that the faculty of desire is wrong, but giving it improper governmental position is what causes temptation.
This would seem to imply that temptation comes as a result of sin, because improper governing our desires is sin. Given that Christ never sinned, He would never have been tempted as we are, according to how James defines temptation.
I believe that Jesus was tempted in exactly the way that James lays out. The difference between Christ and us is not in how He was tempted, but in the fact that He never yielded to temptation.
Christ was tempted by His desires every bit as much as we are. This is why it is said of Him, "Christ pleased not Himself."
Well, I guess I didn't ask a question, did I? So my question would be if you disagree with what I've written here?
It appears to me that you are emphasizing not Christ's human nature, which you have affirmed is like ours, but different issues. I agree with how you see Romans 7 and 8, and the gospel in general. I agree also with your thoughts regarding the spirit, faith, the flesh, etc. although I would use different language.
One other thing I'm not clear about is your thoughts about the Holy Spirit, but that would probably be better treated on another thread.
Your thought about God guiding us with His eye has been a great blessing to me.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/17/05 07:10 AM
John, I agree that Jesus resisted the unholy clamorings, the sinful thoughts and feelings produced by His fallen flesh nature, not as an unconverted, unsaved sinner, but as a born again believer. Nevertheless, sinful flesh nature works the same way in both sinners and saints and Jesus alike. The difference is not in how it tempts humans, but in how humans react and respond to it.
John, I’m still not sure what you believe about holy flesh. I know you think my view is similar to holy flesh, but I’m still not clear about your view. By the way, I believe our sinful flesh nature will continue to bombard us with temptations, in the form of unholy thoughts and feelings, until the day Jesus returns and replaces it with a sinless one.
1. What is it about my view that reminds you of holy flesh?
2. What do you believe about sinful flesh nature?
3. Do you believe it generates and communicates, to our conscious mind, tempting unholy thoughts and feelings?
4. Or, do you believe they originate elsewhere?
5. Do you believe that, in Christ, internally generated tempting thoughts and feelings cease to enter our conscious mind?
6. Can Jesus be merely a guest, rather than master, in our hearts? Is there room for Satan and Jesus in our hearts? Can Jesus occupy a divided throne?
7. Also, is it negative, an inverse of the truth, to emphasize walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, to abide in Jesus, to partake of the divine nature – so that Jesus can 1) empower us to use our faculties of mind and body to recognize and resist the unholy thoughts and feelings produced by our fallen flesh nature, and 2) to grow in grace and knowledge, to mature in the fruits of the Spirit, to become more and more like Jesus?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/17/05 07:23 AM
Tom, the average Christian is not even concerned about temptations. The majority are simply giving in, going along with the flow, putting up little or no resistance, and what little resistance they do produce is not of God, but of self, and the resulting fruits are, therefore, nothing but filthy rags of self-righteousness.
Do you agree?
Some of what John has posted had been a blessing to me. For instance, the way he talks about needing to govern ourselves in the same way Jesus did. But I'm not sure about his views regarding the role of sinful flesh nature after we are born again, about the presence of internally generated temptations. I, too, am concerned about John's view of the Holy Spirit, and the Trinity. A non-trinitarian view of Jesus and Holy Spirit has a negative impact upon these issues.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/16/05 11:26 PM
Tom, the average Christian is not even concerned about temptations. The majority are simply giving in, going along with the flow, putting up little or no resistance, and what little resistance they do produce is not of God, but of self, and the resulting fruits are, therefore, nothing but filthy rags of self-righteousness.
Do you agree?
I agree as to the effect, but not the cause. You state the problem is due to not resisting temptation, but I would say rather the cause is due to resisting God's Spirit. This isn't just a semantical difference, but a vital point to understand. If we resist the work of God's Spirit, then that will be manifest in a lack of ability to overcome temptations, but not resisting temptations is an effect, not a cause. The Spirit of Prophecy states that God will accomplish His purposes in us if we do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace. She also says the root of all sin is unbelief. So the cause is a lack of faith, i.e. not believing/trusting/responding in/to God. One of the effects is sin. Just as faith always results in works, unbelief always results in sin. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin, is another way of putting. The solution is understanding what faith is, and exercizing it.Some of what John has posted had been a blessing to me. For instance, the way he talks about needing to govern ourselves in the same way Jesus did. But I'm not sure about his views regarding the role of sinful flesh nature after we are born again, about the presence of internally generated temptations. I, too, am concerned about John's view of the Holy Spirit, and the Trinity. A non-trinitarian view of Jesus and Holy Spirit has a negative impact upon these issues.
I'll have to read more of what he has to say. John wrote this:
quote:
Christ took on the same sinful flesh like you and I have. Christ took on the same faculties; physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual that you and I have. However, he did not govern them in the same way that the unconverted do. The means and ways of governance, that are his, are and always were available to every being.
I agree with this, and think it is well stated. It's also a very good point. John has a different way of expressing himself (which, of course, we all do). When I have understood what John is saying, I have found it to be in harmony with how I think to a great degree. Regarding the things I don't understand, I'll have to wait and see how the thoughts are developed to see if there's really a fundamental difference involved, or if it's merely a different form of expression.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/17/05 06:49 PM
quote:
You state the problem is due to not resisting temptation, but I would say rather the cause is due to resisting God's Spirit.
Actually, I believe it is both. That is, we get the power to resist internally and externally generated temptations from the Holy Spirit. It is we, not God, who resists temptations and develops Christlike traits of character.
COL 331
But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected. {COL 331.1}
FW 48
In one way we are thrown upon our own energies; we are to strive earnestly to be zealous and to repent, to cleanse our hands and purify our hearts from every defilement; we are to reach the highest standard, believing that God will help us in our efforts. We must seek if we would find, and seek in faith; we must knock, that the door may be opened unto us. The Bible teaches that everything regarding our salvation depends upon our own course of action. If we perish, the responsibility will rest wholly upon ourselves. If provision has been made, and if we accept God's terms, we may lay hold on eternal life. We must come to Christ in faith, we must be diligent to make our calling and election sure. {FW 48.2}
FW 26
God has given men faculties and capabilities. God works and cooperates with the gifts He has imparted to man, and man, by being a partaker of the divine nature and doing the work of Christ, may be an overcomer and win eternal life. The Lord does not propose to do the work He has given man powers to do. Man's part must be done. He must be a laborer together with God, yoking up with Christ, learning His meekness, His lowliness. God is the all-controlling power. He bestows the gifts; man receives them and acts with the power of the grace of Christ as a living agent. {FW 26.1}
"Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies." You and I believe this conflict, the warfare against internal foes, will continue and intensify as we become and more like Jesus until the day He returns. John and Rosangela, on the other hand, believe otherwise. John seems to be saying that the mind and voice of our sinful flesh nature ceases to tempt us when wer'e born again, and Rosangela seems to be saying it gradually dies out after we are born again.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/17/05 11:11 PM
As John has pointed out, the ability to resist temptation is always present with us. This is because Jesus is always present, through His Spirit, to empower anyone who chooses to do His will to do so. The problem is not the power to resist, but the desire to do so.
If we respond to the revelation of God's love manifest through the cross, the result will be victory of sin. If we resist this drawing, we will be overcome.
Being overcome by temptation is a symptom of a deepr problem. The starting point, and continuing and ending point, is the apprehend the height and depth and length and breadth of God's love.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/18/05 02:01 AM
quote:
To me the most important issue is God's character. Man was lied to, believed the lie, and must be healed from that lie. Jesus Christ came to reveal the truth about God, and we are healed when we believe that truth. There is absolutely nothing arbitrary either about God, or His law, or His judgment, or the atonement, or anything God does.
Very true Tom,
The enemy has fairly successfully veiled this lie and diverted the issue to be all sorts of works.
P.S. I am working on a post regarding governmental structure of those created in the image of God; hope to post shortly.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/18/05 06:21 AM
quote:
John, I’m still not sure what you believe about holy flesh. I know you think my view is similar to holy flesh, but I’m still not clear about your view. By the way, I believe our sinful flesh nature will continue to bombard us with temptations, in the form of unholy thoughts and feelings, until the day Jesus returns and replaces it with a sinless one.
MM: 1. What is it about my view that reminds you of holy flesh?
John: Any concept that the body can make us free or captive to sin.
MM: 2. What do you believe about sinful flesh nature?
John: The Law of sin and death does not reside in the flesh, but in the spirit of fallen man, and as such must be and is overcome now by the Law of the spirit of life. The law of sin and death is ‘the modus operandi’ of the spirit of fallen man; in simple words, the subjection of the spirit to the flesh. Thus the flesh rules the spirit.
MM: 3. Do you believe it generates and communicates, to our conscious mind, tempting unholy thoughts and feelings?
John: The communication from the flesh is: a) indiscriminate, b) learned and practiced, c) responsive. The question whether such is tempting or unholy resides with the spirit.
MM: 4. Or, do you believe they originate elsewhere?
John: see above
MM: 5. Do you believe that, in Christ, internally generated tempting thoughts and feelings cease to enter our conscious mind?
John: The communication is always active between the body and our reason; whether it is tempting has to do with spirit.
MM: 6. Can Jesus be merely a guest, rather than master, in our hearts? Is there room for Satan and Jesus in our hearts? Can Jesus occupy a divided throne?
John: That is a good question. We can comment on that at length later. Parable: Consider stranger, then consider dating, then consider marriage.
MM: 7. Also, is it negative, an inverse of the truth, to emphasize walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, to abide in Jesus, to partake of the divine nature – so that Jesus can 1) empower us to use our faculties of mind and body to recognize and resist the unholy thoughts and feelings produced by our fallen flesh nature, and 2) to grow in grace and knowledge, to mature in the fruits of the Spirit, to become more and more like Jesus?
John: It is negative to be witch-hunting for unknown sins. It is negative to think that one could ever come to the bottom of that, and it is the opposite of: looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/18/05 09:02 AM
quote:
It is negative to be witch-hunting for unknown sins. It is negative to think that one could ever come to the bottom of that, and it is the opposite of: looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.
Amen!
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/19/05 07:39 AM
John, again, thank you. But the way you responded to my questions, the words you used, or whatever, still causes me to wonder what you believe about our 1) body and its role in character development, 2) mind and its role in character development, 3) willpower and its role in character development, and 4) sinful flesh nature and its role in character development.
Here's what makes sense to me:
1. Our body is seat of our lower powers, our appetites (physical needs) and passions (emotinal needs). It simply generates and communicates to our conscious mind our innocent and legitimate needs. It cannot sin or develop character.
2. Our mind is the seat of our higher powers, namely, reason, intellect, and conscience. It cannot sin or develop character.
3. Willpower governs the mind. It determines whether our mind is slave or master of our body. Depending on how we respond to various stimuli, we either develop sinful or sinless traits of character.
4. Sinful flesh nature is that part of us that intercepts the messages generated by our body and perverts them. We become aware of them as unholy thoughts and feelings. It can tempt us, but it cannot corrupt our character.
Do you agree? If not, what do you believe about each of these aspects and the role they play in character development.
Tom, what do you believe?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/21/05 06:48 AM
quote:
Christ was tempted by His desires every bit as much as we are. This is why it is said of Him, "Christ pleased not Himself."
Tom, because “Christ pleased not himself” he did not suffer those temptations. Christ was not double minded. Here are some principles taken from EW quotes that MM posted above.
quote:
"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh, with its affections and lusts; but the brutish part of your nature takes the lines of control and guides the spiritual. This is God's order reversed. {4T 365.3}
AG 321
To renounce their own will, perhaps their chosen object of affection or pursuit, requires an effort, at which many hesitate and falter and turn back. Yet this battle must be fought by every heart that is truly converted. We must war against temptations without and within. We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ.
Christ took on the same sinful flesh like you and I have. Christ took on the same faculties; physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual that you and I have. However, he did not govern them in the same way that the unconverted do. Christ’s order of governance was according to God’s order. Desire is a faculty that in and of itself can do nothing. It only becomes alive when something is given “value”. Value is programmed by the spirit of the person. (There were several occasions when Christ was subjected to these temptations (such as the wilderness, Gethsemane, and the cross.) In those occasions Christ would do nothing.)
In that Christ said “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me”, he was not telling us here that he was struggling with his own will, but rather what his established position was. He was revealing to us the way of life; the way God meant us to be governed and the way he governs himself.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/21/05 07:41 AM
quote:
MM: 1. Our body is seat of our lower powers, our appetites (physical needs) and passions (emotinal needs). It simply generates and communicates to our conscious mind our innocent and legitimate needs. It cannot sin or develop character.
Our body is seat of our lower powers, feeling, emotion, smell, touch, taste, sight, and hearing. It is bidirectional in its communication and transaction of these with the mind. It cannot sin or develop character. It does establish habits.
quote:
2. Our mind is the seat of our higher powers, namely, reason, intellect, and conscience. It cannot sin or develop character.
This is ok.
quote:
3. Willpower governs the mind. It determines whether our mind is slave or master of our body. Depending on how we respond to various stimuli, we either develop sinful or sinless traits of character.
This is tending the right direction but much is lacking.
quote:
4. Sinful flesh nature is that part of us that intercepts the messages generated by our body and perverts them. We become aware of them as unholy thoughts and feelings. It can tempt us, but it cannot corrupt our character.
Sinful flesh nature is the corrupted order of governance between the flesh body, mind and spirit. In so that the spirit is made subject to the lower powers of the flesh, establishing a carnal mind.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/21/05 07:48 AM
The order of governance as God gave it at creation
Man is constituted of spirit, soul, and body.
The spirit consists chiefly of the will and faith. These are entirely interdependent in their ability to rule the soul and body yet can function independently within the spirit. In other words, in order for the will to able to rule the soul or body, it must have the full support of faith, without it the will is powerless. But the will can govern faith where or what to trust. More later…
The soul consists chiefly of the mind, reason and conscience. The mind I will liken (computer language) to memory while reason to the processor and conscience to ECC (error correction control). Naturally in the mind you have programs and data; otherwise known as: knowledge, principles, purposes, values, and validity factors (every bit of data is given a value and validity factor). Reason on the other hand is logic or processing center. While we are all well aware of the activities of reason, we do not always realize that it is entirely dependent on what is fed to it. Unto reason, data is fed from both the mind as well as the body. All activity (except that of the spirit) must pass through reason. Conscience monitors whether all has been done with integrity.
The body consists of two general aspects: the semi-physical and the physical. The semi-physical I will liken (computer language) to drivers, while the physical to hardware. I do not think I need to discuss the physical, but the semi-physical is what people struggle with. These would be feeling, emotion, smell, touch, taste, sight, and hearing.
God’s order of governance is that spirit should rule the soul which is to rule the body. So how does that transpire?
Before the will is established on the throne, it must determine faith’s position. Faith is the “door” through which “all” must enter in or out. There is nothing that can enter our person without passing through “the door of faith”. All that passes through gets tagged with a “validity factor” issued by faith (this is unbreachable). It is continually monitored; and all can be re-validated in one swoop. Once the will has determined the position of faith, it can govern the mind and body only according to faith’s position. The will cannot govern the mind or body outside of faith’s position. It will be entirely impotent, no matter how much “willpower” is exerted. For the will to govern the mind or body differently it must reposition faith to suit. So wherever faith is directed, such becomes the source or otherwise authority of the spirit. Whatever is the source is the authority. This source was God in the beginning.
The interaction between the mind, reason, and body; both the mind and the body feed data to and are fed data by reason; (as in computers, where the processor reads and writes data for every process.) In Regards to the body we are dealing chiefly with the semi-physical that is: feeling, emotion, smell, touch, taste, sight and hearing. These are programmable. Thus we are able to appreciate and experience all the various aspects of life in our realm.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/21/05 08:23 AM
Impact of sin.
Through sin man’s governance was rearranged. By doubt and fear faith was broken with God. Through subtlety faith was directed to use man’s reason for the source authority. So man became subject to his own judgment. His reason being continually communicated to by the mind and body did not have the spiritual directive which it had before, so the physical became more real than the spiritual. Through the door of faith this carnal source was fed to the mind which reinforced further the carnal. Faith was weakened by doubt and became vacillating. Thus the will became subject to every whim.
Once faith was removed from God, it had only the five senses as sources. These naturally took over the place which belonged to God. Thus the spirit became subject to the flesh which it was supposed to have governed. Doubt worked havoc with feelings and emotions. The mind now began to receive ‘evil knowledge’ temporal values, breakdown in principles. Conscience bearing witness to loss of integrity of reason, further compounded the condemnation and fear. Self justification followed in effort to reestablish integrity, only to be found lacking.
Then the Lord steps in to this equation.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/21/05 09:17 AM
I'll have to look at the answer to this question later, but here it was. Was Christ tempted as we are tempted? Through the flesh? Were His temptations through the flesh as difficult as ours?
That's actually three questions, if anyone is counting. It seems to me the answers must be yes, yes and yes. Otherwise we can have no victory. We cannot have victory over any temptation which Christ Himself has not vanquished. This seems very clear to me.
Regarding Christ's governing of the flesh, that's not in dispute. Christ never gave into temptation, but He suffered being tempted, and suffered more than anyone else. This is because He took our flesh and took our sin. So He had more tendencies to evil than any of us, by far, although none of these temptations were due to His having comitted sin in any way. They were His by incarnation and imputation, but just as real to Him as they are to us.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/21/05 05:57 PM
quote:
Was Christ tempted as we are tempted? Through the flesh? Were His temptations through the flesh as difficult as ours?
Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Tom, there is no contest here. The answer to your questions is yes to all three. But the conundrum to this discussion is the victory over sin which at the same time removes the power of sin and temptation. So the issue is, that the point of him being tempted like us is the "victory", and not the "remaining in temptation". For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
So while we suffer temptation through corrupt governance, and he was subjected to the same temptation, he overcame it through proper governance and did not remain in temptation. So the point is not that we require him to commiserate with us but that we can be partakers of his glory. The purpose of him suffering temptation is the victory.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
So let us not use the fact that he was subjected to suffer temptation, as an excuse or justification for our temptations through corrupt governance; but rather lay hold of his victory, and be established in his governance, so that sin may not have dominion over us.
That proper governance; that victory is “faith”.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
This faith is not religion.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/22/05 07:59 AM
John, the answer to the question that serves as title for this thread is, as I understand the truth - It remains to tempt us until the day Jesus returns and replaces it with holy flesh, a flesh that does not generate unholy thoughts and feelings that we must, by the grace of God, resist unto the glory of God.
It is apparent to me that you do not share the same conclusion. It seems to me that you believe sinful flesh nature ceases to exist when we are born again, ceases to produce unholy thoughts and feelings. You also believe, or so it appears to me, Jesus never posssessed the carnal mind of sinful flesh nature, that He was never tempted from within, that He never inherited our internal foes, never experienced the promptings of sin from within.
From what I can gather from the things you have posted, you believe sinful flesh nature is merely a conditional state, a byproduct, the result of the higher powers of the mind serving the lower powers of the body, that once this order of things is reversed sinful flesh nature ceases to exist. Did I get it right?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/22/05 06:08 AM
quote:
It remains to tempt us until the day Jesus returns and replaces it with holy flesh, a flesh that does not generate unholy thoughts and feelings that we must, by the grace of God, resist unto the glory of God.
MM this contradicts what you wrote earlier. You have already established that the body flesh (neither sins nor develops character, so it cannot tempt). You have said that sinful flesh nature is something else “that part of us” that intercepts messages generated by the body. That part of us is therefore not part of the body. So it is rather obvious that even if the body flesh could be holy, “that part of us” that intercepts the messages and perverts them, would still be able to do that. “That part of us” is what I am talking about. Since that part of us is not part of the body, it has to be part of the thinking/governmental process.
Here are your statements.
quote:
1. Our body is seat of our lower powers, our appetites (physical needs) and passions (emotinal needs). It simply generates and communicates to our conscious mind our innocent and legitimate needs. It cannot sin or develop character.
4. Sinful flesh nature is that part of us that intercepts the messages generated by our body and perverts them. We become aware of them as unholy thoughts and feelings. It can tempt us, but it cannot corrupt our character.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/22/05 06:42 PM
I do not believe the carnal mind of our sinful flesh nature is a lower or higher power. It is a separate and independent power. Originally, when Adam and Eve were created, our flesh nature was in harmony with God. But not so now. The lusts and affections generated by our fallen flesh nature are a distortion and perversion.
The fact the mind and voice of our fallen flesh nature survives the death and burial of our old man mind, when we are born again, is evidence it was part of the original creation. As you know, we do not receive new faculties when we are born again.
The post-conversion survival of our fallen flesh nature tells me we are not held accountable or guilty for its existence and presence. Nor are we guilty of the unholy thoughts and feelings it generates and communicates to our conscious new man mind. If we resist them in the same way Jesus did we are blameless.
John, do you agree with these observations? If not, what do you believe? What happens to our internal foes when we are born again? Does the voice of our fallen flesh nature cease to tempt us with unholy thoughts and feelings after we are born again?
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/22/05 08:13 PM
MM, is "that part of us" a physical aspect of the body, or is it of the spiritual (thinking/governing)aspect?
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/22/05 11:33 PM
This is a great deal of discussion on a flawed premise. We still have the same nature we were created with. Nature, by definition, does not change. There is no such thing as a sinful flesh nature; there is only human nature. Our actions are determined by the object of our allegiance. I wish theologians had never come up with this error.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/23/05 04:22 AM
Darius, it was Sister White who made the truth regarding sinful nature easier to understand.
John, we become aware of the unholy lusts and affections, which our fallen nature produces, when they appear as sinful thoughts and feelings. The body generates innocent and legitimate needs, the carnal mind of sinful flesh intercepts and perverts them, and the brain converts them into conscious thoughts and feelings.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/23/05 05:22 AM
MM, is "that part of us" (the carnal mind of sinful flesh) a physical aspect of the body, or is it of the spiritual (thinking/governing) aspect?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/23/05 06:05 PM
John, it is akin to instincts. It is neither a higher or lower power, neither physical nor spiritual. It is a separate, independent, intangible power or force. Like instincts, it is not reason, intellect, or conscience, or appetite or passion. The mind and voice of sinful flesh nature remains with us until Jesus restores it to its original, pre-fall state, which is not until He returns.
Why do you keep asking?
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/23/05 06:58 PM
MM, did you say "easier?" Please demonstrate how.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/24/05 06:51 PM
Darius, please do a word search on sinful nature and you'll see what I mean. Let me know what you think. Thank you. PS - there are dozens of quotes on this thread.
Posted By: John Boskovic
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/26/05 06:09 AM
quote:
Why do you keep asking?
Why do I keep asking? It has helped to clarify somewhat what it is you are talking about.
quote:
John, it is akin to instincts. It is neither a higher or lower power, neither physical nor spiritual. It is a separate, independent, intangible power or force. Like instincts, it is not reason, intellect, or conscience, or appetite or passion. The mind and voice of sinful flesh nature remains with us until Jesus restores it to its original, pre-fall state, which is not until He returns.
In your definition here I see three possible realities, which I have underlined.
akin to instincts:
This is something that one turns to automatically or naturally without premeditation. This aspect has to do with spirit. There is a saying “birds of a feather flock together”. What that means is that one leans towards that which one is most at home with; as a child naturally-instinctively runs to the parent when in danger. You might say: what does that have to do with temptation? It has to do with “faith” and our resting - trusting place. Remember temptations require “values” on your part before they can materialize. The Lord said it this way, for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. So seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
It is a separate, independent, intangible power or force.
This would be insinuations, misrepresentations, and suggestions, of the enemy of souls; spiritual warfare.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
The mind and voice of sinful flesh nature remains with us until Jesus restores it to its original, pre-fall state,
This is the phrase you have repeated often which seems to tie in with the body, because you connect it to physical body restoration. But you said it is not a physical issue. So it does not make sense that physical restoration can solve a problem which is not physical.
Or are you speaking about the avenues which Satan can use to tempt us with?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/27/05 07:11 AM
John, we definitely see things differently. I believe the carnal mind of sinful flesh nature generates lusts and affections, and communicates them to our conscious mind as unholy ideas and suggestions, sinful thoughts and feelings. "Flesh" in this sense is not physical. Nor is it spiritual. It is simply the mind and voice of our fallen instincts.
If I understand your position correctly, you believe our internally generated temptations, our unholy thoughts and feelings, are the byproduct of the flesh ruling the spirit, and that once this relationship is reversed, at rebirth, internally generated temptations cease to happen.
If I'm reading you right, and I think I am, then, according to your view, our nature is restored to its pre-fall Adamic state. Which means the lusts and affections that are generated by our flesh nature are no longer at war with the Holy Spirit, that they are in perfect harmony with the will of God. Every impulse, every thought, every feeling would be naturally pure and holy and sinless. Do you agree with my observations and conclusions?
Do you believe that the following insights cease to happen when we are born again? That is, that our flesh stops warring against our soul and against the Holy Spirit?
Galatians
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
1 Peter
2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech [you] as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
In the following quote, what do you think is the origin of "our own impulses"?
DA 668
All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. {DA 668.3}
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/29/05 03:33 PM
MM, what is tha advantage of doing a word seach on "sinful nature?" It will only bring up all the flawed understanding that has permeated our teachings. The term has been blessed and sanctified by consistent use but it makes no sense. Nature is eternal; it cannot be changed. If I were to change your nature you would become a different species.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/29/05 06:46 PM
A "different species"? I like it. Paul put it this way - a "new creature", a "new man". I realize you mean it in an entirely different way, but spiritually speaking my way fits, don't you think? Yes, we still inhabit the same old body, subject to decay and death and disease, always tempting us from within to sin, but spititually we are totally different people. When we are born again we become a Christian, as it were - a new species!
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/30/05 07:15 AM
Humans were created as physical beings. They were never spirit beings. I don't have a spirit. It does not matter how much fancy language you use, it won't change the fact of our existence.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/30/05 06:59 PM
Fancy you should imply I am advocating we change from physical beings to spirit beings when we are born again. What gave you that impression?
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/01/05 07:23 AM
You misread what I wrote. I said we were created as physical beings. That means that we don't have anything called a spiritual component. That is all I said.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/01/05 07:51 AM
Okay, but how do you define the use of the words "spirit" and "spiritual" in the Bible as it relates to us?
Romans
8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
1 Corinthians
15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 11/30/05 08:13 PM
I have only two comments.
To be spiritually minded is to have a mind towards the things of the Spirit. That is all it can mean.
Regarding Paul's statement that it is raised a spiritual body, I do not find the need to perpetuate Paul's misunderstandings. The man was human and also subject to mistakes.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/01/05 01:36 AM
quote:
Regarding Paul's statement that it is raised a spiritual body, I do not find the need to perpetuate Paul's misunderstandings.
If Paul was in error in what he wrote, what source are you using to impeach him? That is, what makes you think Paul was wrong?
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/01/05 01:50 AM
Tom asked:
>>
If Paul was in error in what he wrote, what source are you using to impeach him? That is, what makes you think Paul was wrong?
>>
The evidence. Strange that we have no difficulty "impeaching" David when he proclaimed that the earth is fixed. We realize that he was as wrong as two left feet on that statement. The evidence proved it. The evidence is that the Creator is Spirit and we are physical. We have a relationship with Him but that does not make us spiritual anymore than our relationships with our cars would make us mechanical.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/01/05 04:29 PM
Darius,
I'm not understanding what you are trying to say. There is no spirit as a separate entity, but that part of us with which we relate to God is called "spirit". Otherwise, what did Jesus mean when He said, "Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak"?
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/01/05 04:59 PM
Rosangela, here is what Roberts Word Pictures offers on the use of spirit in that text:
Spirit (pneuma)
here is the moral life (intellext, will, emotionv) as opposed to the flesh (cf. Isaiah 31:3; Romans 7:25).
I like how the Worldwide English (New Testament))
renders it:
41Watch and talk with God, so that you will not do wrong. A person's heart can want to do it, but his body is weak.'
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/01/05 05:47 PM
Darius, I'm going to ignore, for now, the inference that Paul and David were mistaken. But what about the purpose of this thread? What do you think happens to our internal foes, our internal promptings to sin, the mind and voice of our carnal mind sinful flesh nature, when we are born again? Please feel free to quote from the Pauline epistles, if you think it would be helpful (no sarcasm intended). Thank you.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/01/05 06:59 PM
MM, why would you deny the facts by ignoring them. Paul and David were both human. I don't think you have any difficulty asserting that the chosen people of God were mistaken in rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. What makes them different from Paul and David?
Regarding your question, our difference may lie in our understanding of what it means to be born again. To be born again is not a magic transformation. Nothing happens to our natures. We simply transfer our allegiance to the one who is the Author of our lives. This does not silence the voice of our former master nor the inclinations with which we have become accustomed over the years. But what is true of dogs is true of these as well. The one you feed will grow.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/01/05 10:31 PM
Tom asked:
>>
If Paul was in error in what he wrote, what source are you using to impeach him? That is, what makes you think Paul was wrong?
>>
The evidence. Strange that we have no difficulty "impeaching" David when he proclaimed that the earth is fixed. We realize that he was as wrong as two left feet on that statement. The evidence proved it. The evidence is that the Creator is Spirit and we are physical. We have a relationship with Him but that does not make us spiritual anymore than our relationships with our cars would make us mechanical.
-----------------------------------------------
You were disagreeing with Paul over his contention that our bodies will be raised as spiritual bodies. You contend Paul is wrong on the basis of the evidence. What evidence? What makes you think you have a better ideas what our bodies will be like when resurrected than Paul does? I believe Paul knew what he was talking about because he received special revelation from God. The evidence that Paul can be trusted is that for many centuries now millions have proven the truth of his words. What evidence is there that your ideas about our resurrected bodies are more to be trusted than his?
![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif)
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/01/05 10:38 PM
Tom. you now have the option of showing that Adam and Eve had spiritual bodies before the fall or accepting that the sin experience was a benefit to the human race. Which do you vote for?
Incidentally, I do not believe in special revelation because the Bible contradicts that man-made teaching.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/03/05 12:35 AM
One could make a similar argument regarding marriage. God created man and woman to be married, which happened before sin came in the world. Yes Jesus said we would be as angels and not marry in the hereafter. Using the logic you are suggesting, it seems to me that Jesus would be in error.
I don't understand the comment about special revelation. I was quoting Paul, who is in the Bible. So the Bible does not contradict what I said, since it is from the Bible that I got it.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/03/05 02:03 AM
Tom, I think you need to note that Adam and Eve were not married.
You tried to give the impression that the Bible is the standard of what is absolute truth. No one who has read the book can believe that. The Bible is true only in so far as it reflects what God has put in place.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/04/05 09:25 AM
How do you know what God has put in place, if not from the Bible?
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/04/05 02:18 PM
Darius,
I agree with Tom. Adam and Eve were married:
"So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it'" (Gen. 1:27,28).
But those who are accounted worthy to attain to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven (Luke 20:35).
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/04/05 09:47 PM
Marriage is the union of two individuals; two become one. God took Adam and split him into two: one became two. That was not a marriage. Let us remain true to the record.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/04/05 09:48 PM
Tom, I do not need the Bible to know there are stars in the sky, and trees in the ground. Reality stares me in the face everyday.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/04/05 09:54 PM
Spiritual things are spiritual discerned. We were talking about whether Paul is correct in stating that we are raised with spiritual bodies. How would you know the truth about this apart from the Bible?
You said the Bible is correct only insofar as it agrees with how God has done things. I'm asking how you know God has done things apart from the Bible.
You mentioned the stars in the sky. How did they get there? How would you know that without the Bible?
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/04/05 10:03 PM
Tom, this is really simple. Compare the fact of creation with the first appearance of anything resembling the Bible. Do you think that the information did not exist until the Bible was written by the men who wrote it? The Bible is a reflection on reality. It is correct to the extent that the reflections of the men who wrote it was correct. When it teaches that the earth is fixed we understand that this is a reflection of the extent to which the men who wrote it understood astronomy. You can go on from there.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/05/05 04:30 PM
quote:
Marriage is the union of two individuals; two become one. God took Adam and split him into two: one became two. That was not a marriage. Let us remain true to the record.
Darius,
This is beside the point. They lived as husband and wife. Physical beings have sex, but angels don’t. This is Jesus' point about the resurrection.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/05/05 04:35 PM
Rosangela, facts may be beside the point to you; they are important to me. If we reserve the right to be loose with the facts in order to bolster our dogma we should just keep quiet about other people's efforts in the same direction.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/05/05 05:02 PM
Darius,
Let's try again. Jesus said we won't have a sexual life after the resurrection. But when Adam and Eve were created they had a sexual life.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/05/05 05:15 PM
Rosa, that argument only fits in if you believe that a non-sexual life is an improvement over a sexual life.
That was the original argument I made.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/06/05 02:42 PM
Darius,
The resurrection is a more elevated state than the present life, therefore a non-sexual life in this context must necessarily be an improvement on a sexual life. God made man a little lower than the angels (Ps. 8:4-6), however Jesus said that in the resurrection we would be equal to angels (Luke 20:35). And angels are spirits.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/06/05 05:31 PM
Then you must believe that sin was a blessing. You can be resurrected unless you die, and death came because of sin. Wonderful theology. Sorry, I don't buy it. I doubt you do, either.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/07/05 07:04 AM
MSDAOL Administrators:
I would like to make a formal request that Darius be denied access to this forum. His views are clearly unbiblical, and violate the rules of this forum.
Thank you.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/06/05 09:27 PM
Thankfully, you cannot say my views are contrary to the truth. I would remind you that most of what you do today is unbiblical; like belonging to an internet forum. The world must be happy to have people as tolerant as you are.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/07/05 04:26 PM
Darius,
Those who are alive when Christ comes won’t need to die before they are changed.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/07/05 04:53 PM
Rosangela, resurrection and change are two separate issues. I think we are having difficulty because you are combining issues that are not necessarily combined.
Posted By: Rosangela
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/07/05 05:04 PM
Darius,
I don't see why they are separate issues. The condition of those who are changed and those who are resurrected will be the same in the new life.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/07/05 05:56 PM
They clearly are, but if you won't see the difference we will remain at an impasse.
Posted By: Will
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/08/05 07:42 AM
Darius,
Will you expand on your position with Scripture, this would be a good way to understand where you are coming from.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/07/05 08:49 PM
Scripture refers to any writings that humans consider to be sacred and authoritative.
Posted By: Will
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/07/05 10:20 PM
Darius,
Will you be able to expand on your position from Scripture?
GodBless,
Will
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/07/05 10:25 PM
Did you mean from Scripture or from the Bible. It is popular but wrong to assume that the Bible constitutes the only Scriptures.
Posted By: Will
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/07/05 11:24 PM
Unless your are not a Christian then I would expect a different response. I am going to ask 1 more time.
Q: Will you expand on your position so we can all get a better understanding of where you are coming from using Scripture.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/07/05 11:29 PM
Maybe it would help if you asked a more focused question.
Posted By: Will
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/07/05 11:46 PM
Its actually pretty clear question. If you are able to (here comes the question) let others know where you are coming from using Scripture that would be great.
If you cannot or are not willing then there is no need for your participation at all. Its as clear as the sun rising in the east.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/07/05 11:51 PM
What do you mean by "where are you coming from using the Scriptures?"
Posted By: Will
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/07/05 11:57 PM
It appears that several people, or a few or a couple of them are not so sure as to where you are coming from i.e. your views on things, and this being an SDA forum that would be inclusive to things found in the Bible also known as Scripture.
Now that I answered your question will you be able to answer mine, or not? If you dont know what question I asked, that would be the one that has taken up the last portion of the previous page, and the entire current last page we are on. Will you answer the question or not?
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/08/05 12:04 AM
Will, pointing me to a question that I have not been able to comprehend won't make it any plainer. I have told you what I think Scripture is. What else do you want to know? Maybe it would help if you answered the question so I can have an idea as to what the answer could look like.
Posted By: Will
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/08/05 12:12 AM
What do you believe and how did you come to your conclusions. I hope this helps.
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/08/05 12:17 AM
We don't have space. I will tell you what I begin with. I believe that in the beginning an eternal Being created all we see around us. I fill in the blanks by observing the world around me using the intelligence He gave to me.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/08/05 12:45 AM
We seem to be digressing here a bit, however, as most topics at MSDAOL are based on God's Word, this digression is related to such topics and is therefore important for us to pursue further here.
I don't see any difference between the Scriptures and the Bible as they are one and the same thing, therefore, I also do not understand where Darius is coming from and what he is trying to convey to us here.
I hope Darius will enlighten us further as I find his responses here most confusing.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/08/05 12:55 AM
I think the problem comes from individuals who insist that what the church says about the Bible is the absolute truth about the Bible. God's word is eternal; it has no beginning and no end. That is what I believe in. I hope no one here has a problem with that.
I also find it curious that Christians are willing to say that the Jews were in error in their interpretation of Scripture but take offense when there is a suggestion that modern Christians could also be in error in their interpretation of Scripture. Who is the standard? if I may ask.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/09/05 06:19 PM
Darius, you continue to violate forum rules by not accepting the Bible as the sole source of inspiration annd authoritative truth. You set your intelligent observations of the natural world above the truths revealed in the Bible.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/09/05 10:51 PM
Darius: "God's word is eternal; it has no beginning and no end."
Darius this is not to suggest that the Bible is not absolute is it? There are those who say parts of it are fables, that it is open ended, (no beginning or end) not complete and/or not totally inspired, subject to interpretation to fit science or intellectual reasoning. For instance a lot of well meaning Christians (including a few SDA's) are rejecting the idea of a literal 7 day creation week and saying that the Bible is not accurate on the creation story and maybe God used evolution to create. Or that the world wide flood was a tale based on local floods like possibly of the Mediterranean basin.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/10/05 01:05 AM
MM, you could not possibly live by the concepts implied by your last post. Please stop the posturing. I don't have time for small talk. It is too late in the day.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/10/05 03:48 AM
Matthew
4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Deuteronomy
4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Revelation
22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/10/05 10:04 PM
MM, the ability to quote does not show that you live by the concepts in those texts.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/10/05 10:48 PM
Darius why are trying to judge Mountain Man? I think most of us have plenty of beams in our own eyes not to worry about the speck in our brothers? At least I know I do, I really cannot speak for you personally.
BTW you never answered my last post, not that you have to or anything. I was just questioning one of your posts.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/10/05 11:03 PM
Redfog, I guess you missed MM's attacks on me. He has advocated that I be banned from this forum, to say the least.
As to your post, I will not make any claims for the Bible that it does not make for itself, especially claims that contradict what it teaches within its pages.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 07:02 AM
Darius, requesting that you be banned from posting on this thread is not attacking you. Your views violate forum rules.
Since you do not know me personally, you have no way of knowing if I live by every word contained in the Bible.
You believe the Bible must be judged by your personal observations of the natural world around you. You also believe Paul and David penned things in the Bible that contradict your personal observations.
Your assessment of the Bible does not agree with the quotes I posted above.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 07:47 AM
I think there is a great danger in intellectualizing away some of the most basic of Biblical truths. Personal observations are not a basis for truth, in fact our own observations are many times very misleading, especially of the natural world.
MM I agree with you that you were not attacking Mr. Lecointe. You simply took the facts of what was written, felt that what was written violated the forum rules and made a request.
It does appear that there is some serious dancing around the questions on the part of a particular individual. A straight answer is not very often given, indeed there are many post that seem intentionally vague and evasive, to the point of being nonsensical.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/11/05 11:37 PM
MM, I don't have to know you to know that you could not possibly live by some of the things you posted.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/11/05 11:39 PM
Redfog, please take one question and the response I gave then demonstrate the truth of your most recent accusation.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 12:36 AM
"As to your post, I will not make any claims for the Bible that it does not make for itself, especially claims that contradict what it teaches within its pages."
Ya Darius I'd say this answer is rather vague, especially when it should have been clear that I was asking you to comment on the literal 7 day creation week.
You state: "God's word is eternal; it has no beginning and no end. That is what I believe in. I hope no one here has a problem with that."
Is this statement vague? Again yes I'd say it is. What do you actually mean here? If I were judging I'd say , "That is what I believe in. I hope no one here has a problem with that." is also a little arrogant. But I'm sure I'm the only one who sees it that way.
In general I get the impression that you believe that God gave you the intelligence to interpret scripture based on your observation of the world around you. Correct me if I'm wrong on that impression.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 12:50 AM
Redfog, how do you think that the authorities you depend on came to their own interpretations of the Bible. We all depend on human intelligence. I happen to trust the one the God gave me. I hope you are not depending on the one He gave to somebody else.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 01:04 AM
I depend on no one to know that the Bible says the earth was created in 6 days.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 01:11 AM
Wonderful. Please tell us on which day water was created.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 01:22 AM
Yes I realize that there are certain things about the creation story that are problematic, however I still have to take the Bible at it's word and say that the earth was created in 6 literal days. Do you?
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 01:31 AM
How can you ignore the red flags planted by the author at the very beginning warning you not to be too literal with the account? That is irresponsible. I take the account for what it stated declaratively, that in the beginning the universe was created by the One who now rules it.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 02:07 AM
Darius why am I not surprised that you responded in this way
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
You don't like answering direct questions in a direct way do you? You and Muhammad Ali share something: You dance like a butterfly and sting like a bee. As a bee keeper I've learned to ignore the stings. And the dance of a butterfly is entertaining, but not much more.
BTW were do you see that the creation account is not to be taken literally? I don't see it.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 02:36 AM
Follow closely, Redfog.
1. Water exists before the creation begins. That is a logical impossibility. Clearly Moses wants to keep water as in important motif.
2. He says that Elohim created the heavens and the earth. Clearly, he is making this a history of earth because earth is a part of the heavens.
3. He tells us that the God created the earth in six days but somehow managed to create all the other heavenly bodies in one day -- the fourth.
4. For some reason the seventh day is never ended in his account. It is left openended.
All these flags should not be ignored if we have any respect for the God of the Bible. Church dogma cannot be that important.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 04:21 AM
"For in six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth, the sea, and all that in them is..."
Either this is true or it is false. If it is false then so is the Sabbath day, so then is the SDA church and the SOP. And if the Bible cannot be trusted then God cannot be trusted in fact maybe He does not even exist and good old Chucky was right about his theory of evolution.
Clearly water was there, along with a mass of something before He started creation. I don't see a problem with that.
Yes there are some problems understanding the Biblical story of Creation, however if you take the Bible as a whole unit and weigh one part against the other then there can be no question as to the creation week.
I stand by earlier statement: "I think there is a great danger in intellectualizing away some of the most basic of Biblical truths. Personal observations are not a basis for truth, in fact our own observations are many times very misleading, especially of the natural world." There is no truth more basic that Creation.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 04:11 PM
You seriously do not have a problem believing that "water and a mass of something" are as eternal as the Creator?
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 04:12 PM
"The earth is fixed." Either that is true or it is false. Do you really want to go down that road?
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 05:05 PM
So Darius where do you want to go with your reasoning and logic? Is the Bible all fables to you? If you are going to use science to justify the Bible then yes it is mostly fables. Science will tell you that the virgin birth is not possible, so there goes the belief that Jesus is God. At what point do you quit believing in the Bible at all?
If you start to pick the Bible apart piece by piece pretty soon there is nothing left but an empty shell, along with an empty heart.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 05:45 PM
Redfog, where does science say that virgin birth is not possible?
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 06:06 PM
Ok I realize there are those that say natural cloning is possible. However this is not the type of thing we're talking about here. (And I'm assuming with your intellect you know that
) Science would never agree with this: "...for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." It is impossible for us to understand this. Logic and intellect could never figure this out, it has to be taken on faith.
Redfog
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 06:18 PM
Darius, once again, I implore you to stop posting on this thread. Your views violate forum rules. Please, please, please. Stop posting on this thread.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 06:21 PM
Redfog, please join me in disregarding Darius' posts. If we refuse to respond to his posts he will, I pray, eventually stop posting unbiblical views. Thank you.
Have you given any thought to the title of this thread? I would be happy to explore it with you.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 06:52 PM
Redfog, you did not respond to my request. Forget what you think science will and will not do. Provide support for the claim you made.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 06:53 PM
MM, what are you afraid of? It is shameful that you must resort to the tactics you have because you have no substantive rebuttal to my views.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/13/05 07:14 AM
Mountain Man it's true we are well off topic but I think this conversation
is important so that we know Darius's true colors. It is becoming much
clearer what his beliefs are, or maybe I should say unbelief's. He is slowly
and with much prodding reveling to us that he believes more in his own
intellect than in the Bible. We don't have to attack him, he is doing it
quite fine all by himself.
Redfog
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/13/05 07:17 AM
Obviously I can not prove that science would not agree that a virgin birth conceived of the Holy Spirit is possible because science would not address it. However anyone who knows anything about science would tell you that it is impossible. This is not rocket science, it is Faith. Faith based on a personal relationship with the Creator, the same Creator who Created the earth in 6 24 hour days, was born of a Virgin conceived of the Holy Spirit and who died for you and me on Calvary. And rose again, another thing that intellect, logic and science would say is imposible.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/13/05 07:53 AM
Redfog, my posts do speak for themselves. But, you need to be careful how close you come to violating the commandment against bearing false witness when you twist my words to make me say what I have not said in the same way as you have made unsupported statements about what science does and does not say.
It's your choice to place you confidence in other men's intellect rather than in that which the God gave to you. Didn't the Reformation teach us anything?
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 08:24 PM
Darius we all, including you, place "confidence in other men's intellect". However when it comes to the Bible I place my faith in the Bible, not my own intellect, or others. Why? Because if I did then I would not believe the Bible. It's as simple as that. The only way the Bible can be believed is through Faith. Yes I study what others write, (including you on this forum) but they must show their views with scripture.
While you say I'm close to bearing false witness I only write based on what you have written. Nothing more.
Darius you are a hard person to pin down, very hard, (like nailing jelly to a wall?
) by choice I'm assuming, however from what you have written I think it's safe to agree with Mountain Man that you are violating the rules of this forum. That be as it may I've enjoyed it.
So does science support the virgin birth as is told in the Bible?
The REDheaded Fat Old Guy
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 09:00 PM
Darius I must correct my last post as I have no proof you are violating the rules of this forum. My appologies.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 09:20 PM
Wrong question. Many of the things that scientists once thought were not possible are now accepted as fact. That question means nothing. I often wonder what anyone thinks is achieved by asking it.
Apology accepted. That accusation was MM's ploy in his effort to avoid my probing remarks. Something similar was done to Galileo when his detractors could not overcome his arguments that the earth was not the Center of the universe. They accused him of contradicting the Bible. It is an old tactic.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 09:44 PM
Well Darius I am getting tired of your word games. It would appear from your vague posts that you pick and chose what you believe in the Bible. While you dance around questions and ideas the rest of us have to make assumptions on your beliefs based on your vague comments, especially on the 6 day creation. You've never said you believe in a literal creation week or not, and my expectation is you never will on this forum. So be it.
Time to go cut fire wood.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 09:46 PM
Newsflash! Redfog. Whether I believe in a six-day creation or an Instantaneous Creation won't change the fact that the universe was created and the creator rules it all.
Posted By: Colin
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/12/05 11:56 PM
quote:
Darius I must correct my last post as I have no proof you are violating the rules of this forum. My appologies.
No need, Redfrog: this thread is itself the proof.
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Newsflash! Redfog. Whether I believe in a six-day creation or an Instantaneous Creation won't change the fact that the universe was created and the creator rules it all.
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG: God is established in our praises, it says in the psalms; you are tearing God down by discrediting his written word. You can't have a Creator who is torn down.
And, since your dry humour is now dangerously brittle, your lack of positive contribution has become a problem.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/13/05 12:23 AM
Boy this thread has taken a turn. I just have one question: What happens to our sinful flesh when we are born again?
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/13/05 12:28 AM
Nothing happens to it because nothing happened to our flesh when we fell into sin.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/13/05 12:59 AM
Darius the reason I was trying to pin you down on Creation is because this is a SDA forum. As SDA's most of our beliefs are based on the literal 6 day Creation. From Sabbath to Salvation, without a literal Creation story they cannot exist as we know them. I believe that one of Satan's all time greatest deceptions is the theory of evolution, even if it is a God guided evolution. Any origin belief other than a literal creation week is of Satan, pure and simple.
Now if you do not believe in a literal Creation week then I must assume that you are not an SDA, not that it really matters, however it does help to know the beliefs of the person who you are carrying on a discussion with. Because you have been so reluctant to say what you believe it makes it extremely hard to have a discussion with you. You seem to relish vagueness in your posts, for what reason only you can know.
If we wish to carry on a discussion of Creation we should do so on another thread.
Redfog
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/13/05 01:38 AM
Redfog, the Shut Door also used to be an SDA doctrine. When we realized its flaws we set it adrift.
Posted By: Redfog
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/13/05 02:15 AM
Well Darius I don't know about the Shut Door, though I have heard of it. If we abandon our belief in a literal 6 day creation all of our beliefs whould be null and void. You call yourself a Christian. Well Christ believed in Creation. (Mark 10) He said it and I believe it. And without a literal 6 day Creation there is no need of Christ. Without Creation there can be no God as we understand Him. Your talking in circles is really getting wearisome, and not just to me. That you believe what you choose to believe from the Bible is obvious. I cannot accept this kind of Un-Biblical theology, and I think it's safe to say neither can others on here. You mock the Bible and God when you don't believe in a literal 6 day Creation. You've convinced no one as to your beliefs, what ever they are.
![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif)
Redfog
Posted By: Colin
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/13/05 04:37 AM
It remains subdued by the power of God through his Spirit. Romans 8:-
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9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so it be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh;
13for if ye live according to the flesh ye shall die, but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body ye shall live.
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
1 John 5:4 picks up on "sons of God":-
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For whosoever is born of God overcometh the world. And this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Galatians 5:17 brings the battle plan to light:-
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For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other, so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/13/05 03:49 PM
Redfog, how many times do I have to say that this universe was created? You have chosen to create an issue that never existed. If it exasperates you don't blame me. I don't play the cubbyhole game.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/13/05 06:38 PM
Darius, you are being asked a direct question, and the reasons are being clearly stated. This is fundamental belief #6
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God is Creator of all things, and has revealed in Scripture the authentic account of His creative activity. In six days the Lord made "the heaven and the earth" and all living things upon the earth, and rested on the seventh day of that first week. Thus He established the Sabbath as a perpetual memorial of His completed creative work.
Now if you disagree with this, it should be easy enough to say so. Probably most of the people in this forum have beliefs which are contrary to the norm. Just being an SDA makes one contrary to the norm. So there's no shame in admitting you believe something differently than others. But there's no reason to avoid direct questions, and then feign being taken aback because you've answered them!
Posted By: Darius
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/14/05 07:50 AM
Tom, I have to remain within the parameters of the forum. The rules do not say that one cannot be a member based on what believes but that one cannot express views on the forum that contradict what is accepted in the forum. I have discussed this with Daryl. For this reason, I will refrain from making statements that would likely place me in violation of the agreement I made with Daryl. It would be unfortunate if we take the position that we only interact with those who believe exactly what we believe. Thankfully, membership in a particular group does not determine one's destiny. So, forgive me if I am deliberately vague on some issues. There are also some, well one for certain, that I won't even touch.
[ December 13, 2005, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Darius ]
Posted By: Tom
Re: What happens to our sinful flesh nature when we are born again? - 12/13/05 08:03 PM
Ok, Darius. That's a clear answer. Thanks.