Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar?

Posted By: Charity

Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/05/05 09:36 PM

***********************************************************************
Note for new readers of this thread:
This thread sets out to explore whether a calendar found in an ancient manuscript called the Astronomical Book (and confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls to have been used by at least some of the Jews before Christ) is the calendar of scripture. I started this thread in November of 2005 when my understanding of how this calendar was used in scripture was evolving. Because of that I recommend that the reader start at my Feb 11, 2006 post on page 6 of the thread and then read the following five pages if you’re interested in seeing the progression of thought, being aware that I’ve made some statements along the way that I have since corrected in my own understanding but may not have corrected on the thread.

I’m now quite sure that the calendar described in the Astronomical Book is the calendar of scripture, but, this is my own view. MSDAOL has not taken a postion on the issue.
Mark Shipowick Feb 11, 2006.

***************************************************************************

I mentioned on another thread that I am looking into the validity of the divine calendar in modern times, not for the purpose of reverting to the celebration of the Hebrew feasts but for several other reasons. The more important reasons that come to mind are - 1) to confirm it’s operation after the cross so that our calculations of the ending of the 70 weeks, three years after the crucifixion have a Biblical basis, 2) to confirm the validity of October 22, 1844 as the Day of Atonement in that year for the same reason (if the yearly cycle of the Hebrew calendar has no modern meaning, October 22 is an arbitrary date) 3) to establish the Sabbath as having a basis in the Divine calendar (if we deny the existence of a divine calendar, the Sabbath commandment looses its meaning. On the other hand, if we assert a divine weekly cycle we imply the existence of a divine calendar) 4) to anticipate a more robust Biblical position when calendar reform is placed on the public agenda and the Sabbath comes under attack (I will come back to this) 5) to understand unfulfilled prophecy better, 6) to know the true dates of the new year, months, seasons and feasts in modern times, again, not for the purpose of celebrating the Hebrew feasts, but in order to know what time it is according to heavenly reckoning.

Regarding the first two reasons, as I was looking into the subject I found that two of our most important dates that were established by the Millerites couldn’t be reconciled to the rabbinical calendar. Some of you are aware that in 1844, most Jews celebrated the Day of Atonement on September 23 rather than on October 22. Our church historians tell us that the Millerites were aware of this as well but the Millerites rejected the reckoning of the rabbinical Jews in favour of the reckoning of a small Jewish sect called the Karaite Jews. In looking into it further, I found that this is almost certainly incorrect because according to Karaite records, in 1844 the Karaite Jews celebrated the Day of Atonement on September 23 as well. Roseangela, my co-moderator, acknowledges that this may be true but her position is that if the Karaite method of reckoning is correct and the Millerites used that method, then we still arrived at the right day even though the sect members themselves may have miscalculated it in that year. Maybe, but there is a better, more plausible explanation I believe.

Before giving it I should point out that the same problem exists with 31AD as the date of the crucifixion. In that year, according to rabbinical reckoning, the evening of Passover was a Monday or at the latest a Tuesday evening, March 24 or 25 on our calendar, Nisan 14 on the rabbinical Hebrew calendar. This does not fit with the gospel account that our Lord celebrated the Passover Thursday evening and was crucified on a Friday, rested in the grave on Sabbath and was resurrected Sunday. Our theologians have pointed out that if the true Passover was the following month it fits because in the following month it is astronomically possible for the true Passover to have been on Thursday.

The point I am making is that regarding both of the dates for the crucifixion and the Great Disappointment, Adventists reject the rabbinical method of calculating the Hebrew feast days. This begs the question of which method of reckoning is correct. The consensus of Adventist scholars is that the Karaite method of reckoning is correct. However, as I said above, the Karaite reckoning in 1844 almost certainly does not agree with October 22, and, regarding the crucifixion we have no way of knowing what the Karaite Jews would have done if such a group existed at that time because their method of reckoning is tied to the weather as well as to the phases of the moon.

However, I believe there is a simple solution. Ancient records from various sources, one of the most important being the Dead Sea Scrolls, can be compared to Biblical passages of reckoning time and when compared with Scripture, provide the answer. Several of these documents indicate that the original calendar followed by ancient Jews was Solar-Lunar and quite different from the modern reckoning of both rabbinical Jews and Karaite Jews. This thread is devoted to examining those sources and to answering the question, “Is there such a thing as a Biblical/Divine Calendar”?

A word of caution is in order. This thread is not intended to introduce a new doctrine. It is intended as a study of evidence. If the evidence shows the existence of such a calendar, well and good. It is not expected to change the way anyone worships. So at the outset I urge everyone to be restrained and circumspect in their comments but also spontaneous and forthright and enjoy the discussion. I’ll post something soon on this original ‘new’ calendar but feel free to discuss, challenge, query, etc.

[ February 11, 2006, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/06/05 12:25 AM

Before moving on, it is interesting that God has already providentially revealed to the church in the 1843 chart that the rabbinical method of calculation is incorrect. It does this at two of its most important dates – the crucifixion and the Great Disappointment. The 1843 chart pinpoints the crucifixion at 31AD but as noted above, the modern rabbis calculate the Passover date in this year one month earlier than the true date. The implications of this are important because it tells us the Jews of Christ’s day did not use the modern rabbinical method.

That means we must look for a different method of reckoning at the time of the crucifixion. The Karaite sect can only be traced back to the middle ages – to the 8th century AD at the earliest, but probably more recent. They are not mentioned by the classical authors of antiquity and there is no mention of them in the Dead Sea Scrolls. So while the Karaite method of reckoning might be used to supply a partial explanation of the lack of agreement between the rabbis and ourselves in 1844, at the crucifixion we have the additional hurdle that on the one hand the rabbis disagree with us and on the other hand the Karaite sect did not exist.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/06/05 04:25 PM

The solution? In a nut shell, the conclusion I’ve come to is that the Solar-Lunar calendar described in an ancient Hebrew writing entitled The Astronomical Book is likely the calendar that the patriarchs and Hebrews used to reckon time. The Astronomical Book is part of the Book of Enoch quoted by Jude.

Professor James C. VanderKam of the University of Notre Dame, South Bend, Indiana who specializes in antiquities makes this statement regarding the book:

“Sizable portions of the text [of The Astronomical Book] are preserved on four copies, written in Aramaic, from Qumran cave 4 [of the Dead Sea Scrolls]. . . The work explains the structure of the universe by describing the course of the sun in a 364-day year and of the moon in a 354-day year. The same two years (solar and lunar) with the same numbers of days are combined and correlated in a number of the calendrical documents found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. The sun and moon pass through gates at the eastern and western sides of the heavens. Other sections of the booklet speak about the stars and winds and other related topics. All of the created order is under angelic and ultimately under divine control.”

It should be noted that The Astronomical Book and the Book of Enoch in its complete form were re-discovered in the 1700’s two centuries before the Dead Sea Scroll were found. (The latter were discovered in the late 1940’s.) So while the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) contain fragments of many incomplete books that have not been found to date in a complete form, the DSS tend to confirm the authenticity and completeness of The Astronomical Book and it’s importance in reckoning time among some of the Jews of the era one or two centuries before the birth of Christ.
The main calendar rules of The Astronomical Book are:

1) The starting point of the year is marked by the first day that is longer than night in the spring. (This event occurs close to the spring or vernal equinox. The equinox is defined by modern astronomers as the moment that the sun crosses the equator. In the spring, this event occurs a few days before the time when day and night are equal.)
2) The 12 solar months have 30 days for a year of 360 days.
3) There are four intercalated days during the solar year that mark the transition between seasons. These fall one day after the third or last month of the season. When the intercalated days are included the solar year has 364 days, and the last month of each of the four seasons has 31 days.
4) The lunar year is divided into two halves of 177 days each for a total of 354 days.
5) Since the sun defines the beginning of the year, the lunar year starts at the first new moon after the solar New Year.
6) The lunar half-year is made up of three months of 30 days followed by three months of 29 days.
7) For the purpose of reckoning time, the 30-day solar months are used so that the year has 360 days. For defining the seasons and the year, the intercalated days are included, so that a complete year is defined as 364 days. For defining the feasts, the lunar year of 354 days is used.

It is not clear to me or to others how either the lunar or the solar components of the calendar were kept in sync with the seasons. Manuscripts from the Dead Sea Scrolls indicate that the Jews of the Qumron community made no adjustment to the solar year of 364 days for 7 years at a time. This fact leads one scholar to hypothesize that the solar year was brought back into sync with the equinox by adding a week every seven years and two weeks every twenty eight years. However his underlying assumption is that the Jews of Qumron were interpreting The Astronomical Book correctly.

In my view a better approach is to hypothesize that the Astronomical Book itself was the divine astronomical manual for that era and test this with the passages of scripture that reckon time. If we have a good initial fit, then we can use that information to help us in figuring out how the intercalations worked and at the same time determine if the Book supplies a reasonable explanation of our dates for the crucifixion and the Great Disappointment. If after testing our hypothesis as vigorously as possible it still all ‘comes together’ then we can analyse how accurate the Qumron community was in applying The Astronomical Book.

To put it differently, I am suggesting that The Astronomical Book should be assumed to be correct, at least initially, and that the best use to be made of the other Qumron calendrical manuscripts, is as additional support for our position that the modern rabbinical method was probably not in use during the life of Christ. Since some of the DSS calendrical manuscripts other than The Astronomical Book apparently give a solar reckoning for feast days, which is not biblical, the best use we can make of them is as corollary evidence that in this community the calendar did not follow the modern rabbinical model.

With that as my approach, I’ll begin to review some of the Biblical passages dealing with time reckoning and compare them to The Astronomical Book.

But before signing off, here are some references I used:

Prof John Pratt on the Qumron Calendar
http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2003/qumran.html

University of Arizon: Lecture by S Talmon on DSS and Qumron
fp.arizona.edu/judaic/bilgray/talmon/Talmon.htm

United States Library of Congress Dead Sea Scrolls main page
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/scr2.html

LunaCal Calendar freeware used to confirm ancient and modern Passover and feast dates according to the modern rabbinical method.

http://www.geocities.com/royh_il/

7000 Year Calendar software also used to confirm ancient and modern Passover and feast dates according to the modern rabbinical method. Free trial period.

http://www.junecalends.com/7000.html
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/07/05 05:09 PM

Mark,

You are presenting the hypothesis that the calendar of the Book of Enoch is the correct one, others claim that the Samaritan calendar is the correct one, the Karaites say their calendar is the correct one, and the Rabbanites affirm their calendar is the correct one. The fact is that the Bible itself gives us no definite instruction about calendars. The hints we have are of an agricultural nature – the barley must be ripe enough for the sheaf to be waved during the Passover week (Lev. 23:10-14). So, in my opinion, the calendar which closest follows the scant information we have in the Bible is still the Karaite calendar. Since the ripening of barley is tied to the equinox, it becomes clear that God gave this instruction to the Israelites so that their lunar year might be brought into harmony with the solar year (therefore, they followed not a lunar calendar, but a lunisolar calendar).

Such a calendar, however (based on the ripening of barley), would no longer be trustworthy in the global warming days we live in. The fact is we need none of these calendars to determine the dates for the 2300-day prophecy. We will return to this in future posts.

Now, about Karaites and 1844 (quoting from Juarez’s book):

"Karaism was a movement within Judaism which arose toward the end of the eigth century A.D., rejecting the Talmud and the teaching and traditions of the Rabbies in favor of strict adherence to the Bible as the single authoritative source of Jewish law and practice. Thus, one of their differences with the Rabbanite Jews is that they rejected the pre-calculated calendar of the Rabbies and reverted to the original “moonsighting/barley” method of keeping the calendar.(1) In doing this, they often kept their festivals one month later than the Rabbanite Jews.(2) However, a long time before 1844, owing to the difficulty in obtaining accurate information from Jerusalem, the Karaites afar from Palestine had abandoned their moonsighting/barley method and were using Rabbanite reckoning. Thus, the documentation showing that Karaite Jews observed the Yom Kippur in September in 1844 does not prove that this was the right date; it just proves that the Karaites, in the region of the document provided (in the case, Crimea), were then using the Rabbanite reckoning. At some point prior to 1860, even Karaites in Palestine seemed to have reverted to the Rabannite calendar, so we cannot be sure if in 1844 they were still using their special reckoning or not. Whatever the case, however, we must ascertain what the correct date would have been for the Yom Kippur in that year, or what the correct date would have been for the termination of the 2300 prophetic days."

(1)This means that Karaite Jews begin the month with the first sighting of the new crescent moon and that they begin the year with the ripeness of the barley crop in Israel (called in the Bible “Abib”). They use the checking of the barley crops in Israel to determine if it is necessary or not to add an intercalary month before the first month, so that the barley is ripe enough for the sheaf to be waved during the Passover week (Lev. 23:10-14).
(2)This occurred because the Rabbies began the year with the new moon nearest the vernal equinox, and this was frequently so early that there was not enough time for the barley to ripen before Passover. The Karaites began the year with the new moon nearest the barley harvest in Palestine, which frequently was one month later.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/07/05 06:06 PM

For those who may be interested in reading more about the dates for the 70 weeks and 2300 days, Juarez's book can be found at

http://www.setentasemanas.com

In "Downloads" go to "Click to expand the FTP window here". Then right-click the link "BOOK Juarez1. pdf" and select "Save Target As...".
Posted By: Kevin H

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/07/05 10:10 PM

Just a short FYI note: The tradition for a Thursday night passover developed in fairly recent centuries, the earlier centuries tradition was that Passover was on Tuesday night, Jesus arrested early Wednesday, had a hearing then had the regulartory day in prision, and the rest of the trials on Thursday and the crucifiction Friday morning.

The Dead Sea Scrolls point out that the Essenes had a different callender than the Pharicees had, usually having passover 2 to 3 days before. The traditional site of the last supper was in a part of the city that had Essene monistaries, the disciples were to follow a man carrying a picther of water: Usually either a woman or a donkey carried the picthers, if a man was carrying one it was probably an Essene. The Essene monistaries would provide their upper rooms for other Rabbi's to have meals with their disciples.

Thus it appears that the early tradition of the Church is correct, that Jesus probably kept the Tuesday night Essene Passover, arrested early Wednesday and had a hearing, put in prision for about a day (Mrs. White referrs to this tradition and places the denial of Peter to when Jesus is lead away) then having his other trials Thursday and on the cross Friday morning, and dieing at the time the Passover lamb should have been killed at the temple on the Temple passover.

I hope this helps.

By the way, I'm interested in learning more about the Sabbatical years and 1844, I've been hearing from respectable sources, but not having had the information to evaluate, that the Sabbatical years is probably a stronger argument than Daniel 8:14 is for 1844.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/08/05 02:12 PM

Kevin,

I think this passage of The Desire of Ages confirms that just some hours elapsed from Jesus' arrest to His crucifixion:

"As Jesus passed the gate of Pilate's court, the cross which had been prepared for Barabbas was laid upon His bruised and bleeding shoulders. ... The Saviour's burden was too heavy for Him in His weak and suffering condition. Since the Passover supper with His disciples, He had taken neither food nor drink. He had agonized in the garden of Gethsemane in conflict with satanic agencies. He had endured the anguish of the betrayal, and had seen His disciples forsake Him and flee. He had been taken to Annas, then to Caiaphas, and then to Pilate. From Pilate He had been sent to Herod, then sent again to Pilate. From insult to renewed insult, from mockery to mockery, twice tortured by the scourge,--all that night there had been scene after scene of a character to try the soul of man to the uttermost. Christ had not failed. He had spoken no word but that tended to glorify God. All through the disgraceful farce of a trial He had borne Himself with firmness and dignity. But when after the second scourging the cross was laid upon Him, human nature could bear no more. He fell fainting beneath the burden." (DA 741, 742).

Another point to be considered is that Jesus did not die at the hour the passover lamb was sacrificed, but at the hour of the evening sacrifice:

"When the loud cry, 'It is finished', came from the lips of Christ, the priests were officiating in the temple. It was the hour of the evening sacrifice. The lamb representing Christ had been brought to be slain" (DA 756).
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/09/05 02:58 AM

Rosangela, a Karaite rabbi from Egypt investigated this issue in the 1930's or 40's on behalf of one of our former ministers. This rabbi, who had no reason for personal bias, reported to Balenger that in 1844 the Karaites in the Egyptian community celebrated the day on September 23. The Rabbi was aware that Balenger wanted the practise of true Karaite reckoning.

Kevin, feel free to post on the jubilee material related to 1844 if you find something. I'd suggest a separate thread, but I am interested if you find something.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/09/05 03:01 AM

As a general rule, when scripture refers to months it is referring to the time from one new moon to the next. There are a few exceptions that I will come back to. Although the modern rabbinical calendar does not rely on observation of the new moons any longer because sighting them at Jerusalem was not possible after the dispersion, Jewish scholars agree that prior to 70 AD, sightings by two or more reliable witnesses were used to determine the beginning of each month. The rabbinical Jews and the Karaites therefore agree that the biblical way of determining the New Moon is through actual observation. And they also agree that the time of observation should be just after sunset on those days that it is possible for the New Moon to appear.

The observation method of determining the beginning of the month is strongly implied in scripture in several ways but is not directly stated. The Astronomical Book however states plainly that the new moon should be determined by actual observation of the first illuminated part. However, the Book seems to indicate that the proper time to observe the new moon is just after sunrise rather than just after sunset:
quote:
And thus she rises: Her first phase in the east comes forth on the thirtieth morning: and on that day she becomes visible, and constitutes for you the first phase of the moon on the thirtieth day together with the sun in the portal where the sun rises.
It probably comes as a surprise to many to learn that the most advanced astronomical mathematicians today using the best computers and software can only give us approximations for all celestial events involving three gravitational bodies such as the sun, earth and moon. Even a man like Isaac Newton had to confess to his colleague that his efforts to understand the orbit of the moon made his head ache! The algorithms that have been developed are good approximations and usually very accurate, but when it comes to something like predicting when the new moon will appear on a clear night at a given location, the most accurate calculations that astronomers can give us need to be assigned a probability because of not only the unsolved mystery of the three body problem but due to other variables such as the atmospheric conditions effecting the transmission and refraction of light, etc that prevent the mathematicians from developing a completely accurate algorithm.

One of the reasons for pointing this out is that similar problems exist regarding the observation of the solar year. The several decimal places of accuracy that we have been able to give the solar year in our own calendar and the degree of accuracy of high tech atomic clocks is a little misleading. Astronomers themselves tell us that the length of the year is changing slightly over time – it is getting longer - and so the several decimal places are changing too. So it is interesting to note in rule 1 above, the New Year in the Astronomical Book is close to the spring equinox but not the same. Rather than being defined as the time that the sun passes from due east to slightly north of due east, a slightly changing value, the New Year is defined as the first day that is longer than night. This marker for the New Year has the advantage over the equinox of being something that never changes. Whereas the sun will not cross the equator at exactly the same time in the future, as long as there are seasons, there will always be a first day in the spring that is longer than night.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/09/05 04:50 AM

To recap, our placing the crucifixion at 31 AD means that the ancient Jews did not use the Rabbinical method. Rosangela suggests that they may have used the Karaite method, but the main problem with that method is its vulnerability to the vicissitudes of the weather. Modern Karaites acknowledge that the feasts were likely kept in the wilderness after the Exodus when there was no barley harvest, but they suggest that during those years the start of each year was revealed by God himself.

This position is untenable because in later years when the Hebrews were in the Promised Land there were also years of sever drought when there was no barley harvest. The droughts during Elijah’s time were in answer to his prayer. Yet, there is no reason to think that God revealed the New Year directly.

Additionally, I have not seen any evidence that the Millerites relied on Karaite reckoning. Maybe they relied on the Astronomical Book. Roseangela, are you aware of any primary sources from the Millererites that would confirm that either way?

Moving on now to the 30 day months, there are four or five instances in the Bible when the number of days in series of months is given. Because the lunar month has 29 days almost half of the time (there are slightly more 30 day lunar months on average) these passages jump out at us because they do not fit with the notion that all Biblical references to months seem to be lunar. These passages are even more remarkable for the fact that there are no other instances in the bible where a span of time is calculated in both months and days where the montly duration is anything other than 30. This must be viewed therefore as one of the strongest pieces of evidence that the patriarchs and Hebrews not only had a lunar month but also a solar month similar or identical to the solar months of the Astronomical Book. Here are the passages:


quote:

7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
8:4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. . .
8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first [month], the first [day] of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
8:14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried. Genesis


9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. Revelation.

11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.
11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Revelation.

13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. Revelation.

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/09/05 01:03 PM

quote:
Rosangela, a Karaite rabbi from Egypt investigated this issue in the 1930's or 40's on behalf of one of our former ministers. This rabbi, who had no reason for personal bias, reported to Balenger that in 1844 the Karaites in the Egyptian community celebrated the day on September 23.
Mark,

The bold part of my last quote from Juarez's book confirms this:

"However, a long time before 1844, owing to the difficulty in obtaining accurate information from Jerusalem, the Karaites afar from Palestine had abandoned their moonsighting/barley method and were using Rabbanite reckoning."

The 15th century Karaite Hacham Elijah Baschyatchi writes:

"Having explained that the beginning of the year according to the law of our Torah is according to the Abib which is found is the Land of Israel in the conditions which we have mentioned, because of our great sins we have been distanced from the Holy Land and we do not have the capability of finding the Abib, we have been forced to follow the Calculation of Intercalation like that done by our brothers the Rabbanites..." (From Aderet Eliyahu by Elijah Baschyatchi, Israel 1966, p.39a (written in the 15th century) [translation from the Hebrew by Nehemia Gordon])
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/09/05 01:50 PM

quote:
Additionally, I have not seen any evidence that the Millerites relied on Karaite reckoning. Maybe they relied on the Astronomical Book. Roseangela, are you aware of any primary sources from the Millererites that would confirm that either way?
Excerpts from Juarez's book:

As the following quotations show, the Millerites were well aware that Tishri 1 for the orthodox Jews was on September 14 and that their Yom Kippur was on September 23 that year:

"In this city, the Jews observed Monday, Sept. 23d, as the tenth day of the seventh month, but in this, of course, they follow the reckoning of the rabbinical Jews, and they are probably one month too early."[The Midnight Cry, October 3, 1844, p. 101]

"We have told our readers that the Jews in this city commenced their seventh month, sacred time, or first month, civil time, with the 14th or 15th of September." [Idem, October 31, 1844, p. 142]

"The Jewish sacred year commences with a new moon in the Spring. According to the common Jewish calendar, the present sacred year began March 19, or 20, and the Passover was April 4th; but if this was too early for the barley harvest in Judea, then the year must have commenced one month later, that is, about the 18th of April." [The Midnight Cry, october 11, 1844, p. 117]

When the Millerites decided to choose a date a month later than the Rabbanites to begin the year, they seem to have based their conclusions on the fact that "the accounts of many travelers" confirmed that the barley was not ripe for passover the way the Rabbanites calculated the beginning of the year, because "barley is not in the ear in Jerusalem till a month later" [The Midnight Cry, Oct. 11, 1844, p. 117].

For further details about the subject, see Bob Pickle's article "Karaite Reckoning vs. Rabbanite Reckoning: Was October 22 the Right Date, or Was It September 23?" at http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/karaite-reckoning-1844.htm
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/10/05 04:10 AM

Thanks Rosangela. The Midnight Cry quote is good evidence that the Millerites indeed used Karaite reckoning.

But the method itself is questionable at best for the reasons I've given above. I will say again that there is no doubt in my mind that the Millerites arrived at the right date, but the fact that they did not have the right date on two earlier occassions should put us on notice that they were prone to error like all of us, and should underscore for us the real possiblity that although the date is right, that may be inspite of the incorrect method used to reach it.

I'll continue soon with the evidence of how the Astronomical Book is a good fit with scripture.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/10/05 01:32 PM

Mark,

The people of Israel had to observe the barley harvests in order to have ripe barley for the wave sheaf at Passover. Were they incorrect?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/10/05 04:32 PM

The barley offering was only one of several offerings that were prescribed. For example, if the olive harvest failed for several years in a row as it did in Elijah's day, it may have been physically impossible to do replenish the oil for the lamps, to mix oil with the grain offering, to anoint the new priests and rulers etc. That does not pose a serious challenge to the integrety of the sacrificial system if the calendar itself remains intact. But if we insist that the New Year was calculated according to something that occasionally failed, i.e., the barley harvest, the entire system come to a halt in the years there is no harvest. Do you think that is what scripture and God intended?

Your question assumes that the Isrealites based their year on this harvest - something that the evidence does not support in my view - for the above reason and for the others I've given.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/10/05 04:34 PM

In my list of rules above, Rule 4 of the Astronomical Book divides the lunar year into two halves. The purpose of dividing the lunar year appears to be to allow for intercalated lunar months in both the spring and fall rather than only in the spring which is how the modern Jewish calendar is kept in sync with the seasons.

The modern Jewish calendar, like the calendar of the Astronomical Book places the beginning of the year in the spring close to the equinox. But, the Jewish calendar also emphasizes a separate fall-to-fall cycle: The modern Jews calculate the religious year from spring to spring, but their civil year runs from fall to fall.

In contrast, the Astronomical Book has only one starting point, but it, as I mentioned above, appears to make provision for an intercalation of an extra month in either the spring or the fall. Perhaps the modern Jewish custom of dividing the year into civil and religious cycles is a corruption of this provision and/or a corruption of the provision in the Astronomical Book for both a lunar and a solar set of months.

Regarding 1844, here is how the calendar of the Astronomical Book appears to work:

In 1844, March 17 was the first day that the days began to be longer than nights, so under Rule 1, this was the first day of the solar New Year. The first visible new moon probably (see above posts regarding probabilities for new moon sightings) occurred on March 20 and so, under Rule 5 this was the start of the lunar half year. Six lunar months after that date takes us to the new moon of September 13. If this date was after the days began to be shorter than night, no intercalated lunar month would be added. But because the days did not become shorted than the nights until Friday Sept 27 an extra month would be added so that the first new moon of the second half lunar year was Oct 12. The Day of Atonement arrived ten days later from that date. So here is another fit with scripture.

Regarding the crucifixion in 31 AD the calendar from the Astronomical Book works like this:

In 31 AD the first day that was longer than night occurred on March 18, so under Rule 1, this was the first day of the solar New Year. The first visible new moon probably (see above posts regarding probabilities for new moon sightings) occurred on April 10 and so, under Rule 5 this was the start of the lunar half year. Therefore April 24, a Thursday, was the evening of the Passover. Unlike the modern Jewish calendar, this reckoning fits with the gospel accounts that Christ ate the Passover with his disciples on a Thursday.
Posted By: Kevin H

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/10/05 09:21 PM

Hi Mark: I was only reflecting that I'd be interested in what you were studying. I do not have the information on the Jublees and 1844 beyond hearing that it is out there.

The focus on my point was that you are trying to find evidence to support the Thursday night passover, however the Thursday night last supper is only a late development tradition in Church history, only a few centuries old. The early Christian tradition had the last supper on Tuesday night, and current Biblical scholarship is saying that the evidence supports the early tradition and not the latter developed traditon, and wanted to share this with you to be aware of as you study. It gives a harmony between the synoptics and John, with Jesus cellebrating the Essene Passover on Tuesday night, being arrested early Wednesday, having a hearing and spending the required day in prision in the basement of Caiphas's house, taken back out on Thursday for the trials, thursday night beaten by the Roman soldiers, and Friday morning, the day of the Temple passover.

The Synoptic Gospels have the last supper as a passover meal, John does not, John has Jesus death as the ultamate passover meal.

But either way, the current studies do not support the latter tradtion that we read into the text of a Thursday night Last Supper, but supports the earlier tradition of a Tuesday night Last Supper. The Bible does NOT say that the Last Supper was on Thursday night! They do not give a time line but only discussed the supper, what Jesus was going through in the garden, and the trials and that Jesus was on the cross Friday morning. We impose our own timelines into the text. The early centuries of the Christian church had it streaching from Thursday to Friday. It was only later centuries that developed and started to assuming that the text had the Passover was Thursday night and that Jesus went through these trials, time in prision, and beating all within about 8 hours. But Tradition does become very strong and blinds our vision. We need to constantly keep our guard up that we are studing what the scriptures actually say and does not say. The Thursday night last supper was an assumption that developed and was read back into the text in recent centuries.

The Thursday night Last Supper is simply tradition, a late developed tradition which the early Christians did not have, and which modern COSERVATIVE Biblical scholarship and Archaeological studies have become much more open that the earlier Christians had the correct timeline. For further study may I recommend James Flemings "The Last Supper and Crucifiction as Passover" as well as others of his studies on the Crucufiction, including some of his note books which have extensive resources for further studies. You can find their website put in Jim Fleming and Biblical Resources in your search window. Dr. Fleming is the founder and director of Biblical Resources, the Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies, and a professor of archaeology and Biblical studies at Hebrew University in Jersualem Israel.

I hope you find this useful.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/10/05 10:25 PM

quote:
But if we insist that the New Year was calculated according to something that occasionally failed, i.e., the barley harvest, the entire system come to a halt in the years there is no harvest. Do you think that is what scripture and God intended?
Q: How can the new year be set according to the barley in Sabbatical and Jubilee years? What about in drought years? Even if barley sometimes sprouts and grows "voluntarily" with no cultivation, isn't this is less likely in the Jubilee year and in years of severe drought.

Barley grows every year in the Holy Land whether farmers intentionally cultivate it or not. Unintentionally cultivated barley, also referred to as "volunteer" barley, is present all over the Land of Israel in very large quantities. In areas where barley had been cultivated in previous years, fallen seeds would have grown "voluntarily" in relatively large concentrations. However, even in areas where barley has not been cultivated since at least 1948, it continues to survive in great quantities. Volunteer barley grows in such large quantities that Arab shepherds have been known to harvest it with sickles to feed their sheep. Modern wheat farmers in Israel complain that they have to actively root out volunteer barley from their wheat fields and even then they can never get all of it. It is specifically the "volunteer" crops which the Torah gives the poor and Levites to eat in the sabbatical year, as we read in Lev 25,4-7:

"(4) But in the seventh year shall be a Sabbath of rest unto the land, a Sabbath for YHWH: you shall not plant your field...(5) That which grows of its own accord of your harvest you shall not reap... (6) And the [produce of the] Sabbath of the land shall be for you for food; for you, and for your man-servant, and for your woman-servant, and for your hired workers, and for your stranger that sojourns with you. (7) And for your cattle, and for the wild-animals that are in your land, shall all its produce be for food."

In a Sabbatical or Jubilee year there would have been no difficulty to determine the Abib based on the "volunteer" barley. Even in the severe drought of 1998-1999 the volunteer barley was abundant throughout the Land of Israel, even in the Negev desert!
http://www.karaite-korner.org/abib_faq.shtml#sabbatical_and_jubilee

Besides, you said,
quote:
The barley offering was only one of several offerings that were prescribed.
It seems to me you are missing the importance of this offering, which was a type of Christ’s resurrection.

"Christ arose from the dead as the first fruits of those that slept. He was the antitype of the wave sheaf, and His resurrection took place on the very day when the wave sheaf was to be presented before the Lord. For more than a thousand years this symbolic ceremony had been performed. From the harvest fields the first heads of ripened grain were gathered, and when the people went up to Jerusalem to the Passover, the sheaf of first fruits was waved as a thank offering before the Lord. Not until this was presented could the sickle be put to the grain, and it be gathered into sheaves. The sheaf dedicated to God represented the harvest. So Christ the first fruits represented the great spiritual harvest to be gathered for the kingdom of God. His resurrection is the type and pledge of the resurrection of all the righteous dead. 'For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.' 1 Thess. 4:14." {DA 785, 786}
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/10/05 10:49 PM

quote:
In contrast, the Astronomical Book has only one starting point, but it, as I mentioned above, appears to make provision for an intercalation of an extra month in either the spring or the fall. Perhaps the modern Jewish custom of dividing the year into civil and religious cycles is a corruption of this provision and/or a corruption of the provision in the Astronomical Book for both a lunar and a solar set of months.
Mark,

What you are forgetting altogether is that in a 364-day calendar no extra “month” can be inserted. According to the hypothesis that you yourself presented, the maximum that could be inserted was a week every seven years and two weeks every twenty eight years.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/11/05 02:53 AM

Hi Kevin:

I'm familiar with that postion. I have looked into it before now, but I agree with Rosangela that the SOP and scripture support the Thursday night Passover. One of the best authorities on that point is Alfred Edersheim, a 19th century converted Jew and scholar whom Ellen White seems to have drawn material from. In his book The Temple, Its Ministry and Services, he devotes several pages in an appendix to that issue. Edersheim is especially credible because of his vast knowledge of Jewish customs. The only weakness I've seen in his research in general is that he places too much reliance on the accuracy of the Mishnah as a primary source of information on the practises of the Jews before the dispersion. The Mishnah is at best a secondary source but there are not many other sources. Even the DSS's do not provide as much information as scholars had hoped.

Another reason you may like to read him is that he is of the opinion that John the beloved was from the priestly line. In his book you'll see why he thinks that and I have to say, he makes a good case. There are a number of details in John's gospel that point to a more in-depth understanding of the sacrificial system and the temple services. I can't remember for sure but I think some of them relate directly to the Lord's Supper, and while John may not use the term passover, I seem to recall that Edersheim finds more evidence of the Passover in John's account than in the other gospels.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/11/05 03:12 AM

Rosangela, the Astronomical Book (AB) calendar has two sets of months: One set is solar and the other is lunar. I mentioned above that I am not clear on how the two sets are intercalated, but in the case of the lunar months we can be sure that a complete lunar month was added from time to time. With a prescribed lunar year of 354 days, the AB says that the moon falls behind the sun 30 days in 3 years, 50 in five and 80 in eight. This observation suggests that the intercalated lunar months should fall in those years, and interestingly, in the modern Jewish calendar, the 3rd, 6th and 8th years have been selected for intercalation in the 19 year cycle that the modern Jews observe - almost the same as in the AB - at least for the first part of the cycle.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/11/05 01:19 PM

Mark,

This does not make sense. No community can follow two sets of months, for there would be no understanding between the members of that community. While some were at a month according to the solar calendar, others would be at another month according to the lunar calendar. While some were at a year according to the solar calendar, others would be at another year according to the lunar calendar. Not to mention what a confusion this would make with the observance of religious festivals.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/12/05 03:51 PM

Rosangela, you don't seem to have studied the calendar. It is in Enoch 72 to 81. You can find at least two good English translations by using a search engine. John Pratt has posted the Lawrence version on his site. There is a link to one of his articles in my second post that will take you to his site and a link in the article that will take you to Enoch.

Rule 7 of my rules gives the basic structure of how the dual monthly reckonings worked. The 'rules' are in my second post.

In addition, scholars agree that in Qumran there is evidence of a dual set of months. S Talmon, possibly the best known authority on the Qumran calendars (he believes that there are a few permutations of the calendar in Qumran) affirms this among others.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/12/05 03:58 PM

I said above that the New Moon seems to be reckoned in the AB from the first morning that it becomes visible based on the passage I quoted which was from the Charles translation of Enoch. But, if this is an inspired calendar, this cannot be correct because scripture reckons the day from evening to evening. So, I’ve had a second look at that passage in the Lawrence translation and at other related passages and it does look like I misspoke: The AB appears to designate the New Moon in the same way that the Karaites do – the first visible portion shortly after sunset. This would harmonize with the scriptural reckoning of the day.

Here is the passage in the Lawrence translation:
quote:

4 Thus it [the moon] rises, and at its commencement towards the east goes forth for thirty days.

5 At that time it appears, and becomes to you the beginning of the month. Thirty days it is with the sun in the gate from which the sun goes forth. [Charles translation is quite different here. It says the beginning of the month is on the 30th day that the sun goes forth.]

6 Half of it is in extent seven portions, one half; and the whole of its orb is void of light, except a seventh portion out of the fourteen portions of its light. And in a day it receives a seventh portion, or half that portion, of its light. Its light is by sevens, by one portion, and by the half of a portion. Its sets with the sun.

7 And when the sun rises, the moon rises with it; receiving half a portion of light.

8 On that night, when it commences its period, previously to the day of the month, the moon sets with the sun.


9 And on that night it is dark in its fourteen portions, that is, in each half; but it rises on that day with one seventh portion precisely, and in its progress declines from the rising of the sun.

10During the remainder of its period its light increases to fourteen portions. Enoch 74:4-10

The meaning in the above passage seems to be that on the 30th day of the lunar month the moon is invisible as it sets with the sun, but in the following day when the new month begins it receives a fourteenth part of its light, that is, half of one seventh of its light because the moon grows by sevenths.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/12/05 05:21 PM

Regarding the reckoning of months in the solar part of the AB calendar there are two possible configurations:

1) 30-30-30-1 repeated four times for a total day count of 364 and:
2) 30 x 12 plus 4 for a total day count of 364.

In both of the above reckonings the month always has 30 days. The difference between the first and second versions is that extra four days are assigned one per season in version 1 but are lumped together at the end of the year in version 2.

There is evidence in the AB and in the Qumran documents that both versions/arrangements of the solar months were used. In the case of the AB, both versions appear in the same calendar, so it seems that for the purpose of the determining the seasons version 1 is used but for determining the time/date, version 2 is used.

At first glance this appears to be a complex and confusing system, but let’s try to piece it together. If this is a divine calendar it will be based on simple principles; In fact, this is a an important test of its validity – does it operate in a simple manner? If not, it has to be rejected as having an inspired origin. But before we can give the full picture we need to look at the individual parts. I’ll try to bring them together in the near future. In the mean time, if anyone is looking at the AB calendar besides me, and you see I’ve overlooked something, please let me know.

Getting back to the two solar reckonings of months, the second reckoning would have to be the inspired reckoning for dates and tracking duration of time because in every case where the number of days is given in scripture for a series of months, the month always has exactly 30 days. So the first version cannot be the correct one for reckoning time in scripture because every third month has an extra day added to it.

Interestingly, there are two calendars in use today, the Coptic and the Ethiopic, that have a 364 day year and that reckon the months according to version 2 – that is 12 x 30 plus 4. These calendars are included in the 7000 Year Calendar software that I put a link to in my second post at the beginning of this thread. What is especially interesting about this is that these communities were home to the branch of the early Christian church that held the Book of Enoch in high regard.
The history of the Book of Enoch and it’s influence among the Coptic and Ethiopic churches is summarized in this fascinating comment at the http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/enoch.htm website.

quote:
The Book of Enoch was extant centuries before the birth of Christ and yet is considered by many to be more Christian in its theology than Jewish. It was considered scripture by many early Christians. The earliest literature of the so-called "Church Fathers" is filled with references to this mysterious book. The early second century "Epistle of Barnabus" makes much use of the Book of Enoch. Second and Third Century "Church Fathers" like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origin and Clement of Alexandria all make use of the Book of Enoch. Tertullian (160-230 C.E) even called the Book of Enoch "Holy Scripture". The Ethiopic Church even added the Book of Enoch to its official canon. It was widely known and read the first three centuries after Christ. This and many other books became discredited after the Council of Laodicea. And being under ban of the authorities, afterwards it gradually passed out of circulation.

At about the time of the Protestant Reformation, there came to be a renewed interest in the Book of Enoch which had long since been lost to the modern world. By the late 1400's rumors began to spread that somewhere a copy of the long lost Book of Enoch might still exist. During this time many books arose claiming to be the long lost book and were later found to be forgeries.

The return of the long lost Book of Enoch to the modern western world is credited to the famous explorer James Bruce, who in 1773 returned from six years in Abyssinia with three Ethiopic copies of the lost book. In 1821 Richard Laurence published the first English translation. The famous R.H. Charles edition was published in 1912. In the following years several portions of the Greek text surfaced. Then with the discovery of cave 4 of the Dead Sea Scrolls, seven fragmentary copies of the Aramaic text were discovered.

Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/12/05 05:39 PM

The significance of the last quote is to suggest that of all modern calendars, the Jewish and the Coptic/Ethiopic come closest to the AB model. The AB model does not include several of the rabbinic rules that have been added, but it does make the lunar cycle prominent. The Coptic/Ethiopic calendars are deficient in that they make no allowance for the lunar cycle. My hypothisis is that the AB brings it all together and gives the sun and the moon their proper roles as timekeepers - the role that was assigned to them by God on the fourth day of creation when the heavenly bodies were made. Are there any questions or comments? If not I'll continue on . . .
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/13/05 05:33 PM

In a post above I noted that the modern Jewish calendar has two New Years – one in the spring for the religious New Year, and one six months later in the fall for the civil New Year. This may be a corruption of the AB calendar which also has two starting points for the New Year. In the AB there is the Solar New Year and the Lunar New Year, the solar New Year being defined as the first day that is longer than night in the spring. See Rule 1 in my second post at the beginning of the thread. The Lunar New Year appears to be defined as the first new moon after the Solar New Year.

In the modern Jewish calendar (which was probably not the same as the calendar used by the Jews of Christ’s day) the lunar cycle is aligned with the seasons by inserting extra months – seven of them in a 19 year cycle. But there is no direct use of the sun to maintain the alignment.

After the dispersion in 70 AD, (possibly several centuries after that date,) the Jews adopted the current 19 year cycle, This cycle is so close to the average solar New Year that it is actually more accurate in maintaining its alignment with the sun than the Gregorian calendar! And unlike the Gregorian calendar it does this without any direct reference to the sun.

One has to admire the astronomical abilities of the rabbis of that time. They did excellent work, but unfortuantly they ignored the fact that the sun is the primary time keeper and the moon is secondary. Like the modern Jewish calendar, the AB calendar also allows for intercalated lunar months, apparently in the 3rd 5th and 8th years, but the primary year is always solar and the secondary year lunar.

The Jew of Qumran community seem to have preserved the primary role of the sun in their calendars but at the same time there is evidence that the lunar cycle was used to define the feast days. The majority of scholars find that the solar month rather than the lunar was used to define the religious festivals, but I have not seen enough evidence yet to be persuaded that that was the case. If it was, the Qumran calendar would be a corruption of the AB calendar because after studying the structure of the latter, I have no doubt that it is in complete agreement with the lunar cycle of the Hebrew feasts of Leviticus 23.

Now that the basic structure of the AB calendar has been set out, (for a review/summary, see my seven rules in the second post) the main questions remaining are:

1) How were additional days or weeks or months added to the solar cycle. It seems to have been adjusted every 5 years. More on this shortly, I hope.

2) Regarding the lunar cycle, it is quite certain that a complete lunar month was added periodically to the lunar cycle. See above. It appears this was done on years 3, 5 and 8 of an eight year cycle. It is not clear though how the cycle repeats - for example is year 8 also the first year of the next cycle?

3) Was there or is there a repeating pattern between the solar and lunar months that would allow for a simple way of cross-referencing the dates of the solar and lunar months/years.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/17/05 03:47 AM

Well, I haven't been able to figure the intercalations out. The seven rules I posted at the beginning is as far as I've been able to get.

To recap, this is the only calendar I'm aware of that reconciles the biblical 30 day month with the biblical lunar months. I am confident of that statement.

The seven rules that I listed appear to hold true. And it seems likely that there is a simple way to cross-reference the lunar and solar months. The calendar gives additional rules that I haven't organized into a list because I'm not sure how they apply, but the rules I have not listed apparently are for cross-referencing. The method of aligning it with the seasons is clear in rule 1. If anyone can help out, I think you'll find the exercise rewarding.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/22/05 03:43 AM

I've made some progress I think. The 7 basic rules I posted above have held good so far. Regarding the cross-referencing of lunar and solar months it appears that a list like the ones found at Qumran would be needed - not more than seven of them - to cross-reference the lunar and solar dates. The solar months would be used for business but the feast days determined by the lunar month. So the only cross-referencing would be for the purpose of confirming the lunar feast days in the solar calendar.

In general, the AB calendar appears to be more practical than ours because it allows for the same day to fall in every month. For example, the first day of the second solar month is always a Friday etc. To put it another way, this calendar does away with the need to print a new calendar every year because the days of the week align in the same way every year. The calendar is re-aligned with the seasons at the end of an eight year cycle and the seasonal drift during that time is only about 9 days.

The Qumran community appears to have made the realignment on a seven year basis but as I mentioned above the Astronomical Book seems to call for an eight year cycle. John Pratt in his article (see link above) has suggested a way that the people of Qumran kept their calendar in sync with the seasons. I think his approach is possible but unlikely because it has exactly the same weakness that the Julian calendar did - a slow seasonal drift based on a 365.25 day year. The AB calendar solves that problem by implying that the extra intercalated week or weeks at the end of the eight years will be determined by the alignment of both the sun and the moon. How? I’m not sure. I can say though that on a scale of one to five, the AB calendar is a five in terms of its practicality, (assuming the intercalations are worked out at the end of the eight year cycle in a simple way) it’s biblical respect for the roles of the sun and moon as time keepers, and its being the only calendar that I have seen that reconciles the biblical 30 day month with the lunar month.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/22/05 03:53 AM

Maybe some of you are asking "Why is Mark puting this level of energy into this?" The main reasons for doing it are 1)prophecy: all of the long prophecies are based on a 30 day month, so people who are students of prophecy would be helped if they had some basis for a 30 day month and a 360 day year and 2) all the indications I have seen are that calendar reform will become a signifant issue in the future. The International Standards Organization which now has tremendous clout has already issued a calendar standard that makes Sunday the seventh day of the week. It is ISO-8601 which declares Monday as the first day of the week.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/26/05 04:02 AM

Mark,

The objective of this thread is to ascertain the validity of the AB calendar.

We know that the efficiency of a calendar is tied to its exactness in relation to the tropical year, and this exactness depends on its intercalation system.

The Book of Enoch not only mentions no intercalations, but it says, "The year is completed scrupulously in 364 fixed stations of the cosmos" (1 Enoch 75:2-3). Of course any intercalation would upset those fixed positions.

In case there was an intercalation system, nobody knows it, and the ones that have been proposed (5 weeks every 28 years or 30 days every 24 years), as you pointed out, have an error of about 1 day every 128 years with respect to the mean tropical year. You propose that there must be a more correct way to make the intercalations, but nobody has been able to devise it till now.

It is not possible to use a calendar if you don’t know how to make it work correctly. I would point out again that if God wished us to follow a specific calendar, He would have given us detailed instructions about it in the Bible. If He didn’t do so through the inspired books of the Bible, I don’t think He would use an uninspired source to accomplish this purpose.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/27/05 04:51 PM

There are several books that the Bible refers to that have been lost Rosangela. These are endorsed by the prophets, so we should be prepared to read them with open minds if they are recovered. Forgeries will always be a distraction and unscrupulous men will attempt to mislead. But I believe there have been some interesting discoveries in the last 300 years that merit our attention.

For example, I learned just yesterday about the Temple Scroll from Qumran. It was only recovered in 1967 and not translated until 1977. Since the details of the architecture of Solomon’s temple are missing from the Bible, when a discovery like this is brought to our attention, we need to look at it. Wouldn't it be a wonderful addition to our knowledge if we knew the details of Solomon's temple which according to the Bible were given to David under the inspiration of the Spirit?

I haven’t studied it in depth yet. I did notice some evidence that it uses the calendar of the AB.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/27/05 05:01 PM

Regarding the intercalation issue, I am making some progress in resolving it.

One of the papers I read yesterday contained a quote from a 10th century rabbinic Jew who wished to refute the Karaite position against a precalculated calendar. He observed that even when Israel's government was intact, the final decision of when the month began rested with a committee, not with those who witnessed the New Moon. But his main arguement was based on scripture! He said that the phrase 'YE shall proclaim' was the Divine endorsement of the committee method of declaring the date of the New Moon. The witesses provided evidence but in the ancient system their testimony was never final. It was the committee of Priests and members of standing that decided.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/27/05 05:37 PM

Mark,

Uninspired documents only have historical value.
As to the declaration of the New Moon, the Sanhedrin heard the testimony of at least two witnesses and proclaimed that a new month had been sanctified. So the method was still observational, not precalculated. The sanctification of the new month is discussed at greater length in the Mishna, on Rosh Hashanah 24a.
http://www.aishdas.org/webshas/baisdin/powers/chodesh.htm
The Mishna, however, dates from the second century A.D.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/27/05 08:41 PM

As Adventists we believe in inspired sources outside the Bible. You don't seem to be open to that possibility, other than Ellen White, so we will have to disagree. But it is scriptural. I hope you will reconsider the potential value of a book like for example the Temple Scroll. The Bible in a number of instances refers readers to books that are/were lost. It does not qualify the endoresment by saying they are only of historical interest. It normally says things like 'his deeds are written the the book of X.'
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/27/05 08:43 PM

The comments below are posted on the Karaite Korner web site. The author’s analysis is brief but excellent in my opinion. He provides evidence that the moon is what the scripture intends as the monthly time keeper of the biblical holidays:
quote:

There can be no doubt that the biblical Holidays are dependent on the moon. The strongest proof of this is the passage in Ps 104,19 which declares:

"He created the moon for Mo'adim [appointed times]"

The Hebrew term Mo'adim [appointed times] is the same word used to describe the Biblical Holidays. Leviticus 23, which contains a catalogue of the Biblical Holidays opens with the statement: "These are the Mo'adim [appointed times] of YHWH, holy convocations which you shall proclaim in their appointed times [Mo'adam].". So when the Psalmist tells us that God created the moon for Mo'adim [appointed times] he means that the moon was created to determine the time of the Mo'adim of YHWH, that is, the Biblical Holidays.

"Hodesh" Is Related To the Moon

The above verse clearly teaches us that the holidays are related to the moon. But when the Torah was given Ps 104 had not yet been written by the Levitical prophets, and the question still remains of how the ancient Israelites could have known this. The answer is that the Hebrew word for month (Hodesh) itself indicates a connection to the moon. We can see this connection in a number of instances in which Hodesh (month) is used interchangeably with the word "Yerah", the common Biblical Hebrew word for moon, which by extension also means "month". For example:
"...in the month (Yerah) of Ziv,
which is the Second month (Hodesh)..." (1Kings 6,1)

"...in the month (Yerah) of Ethanim... which is the Seventh month (Hodesh)..." (1Kings 8,2)

I said above that I was not completely convinced that the Qumran community used a non-lunar month for demarking their feast days, but after reviewing it in more detail it does seem that they used solar rather than lunar months to determine most of their feasts.

This is clearly unscriptural. The question that interests me the most though is how the AB calendar is supposed to work. If the Qumran community misapplied it, that is a separate issue. The fact that they used a calendar apparently based on the AB but a corruption of it is evidence that some Jews viewed it as important.

So to summarize, I think it is clear that none of the three groups, the rabbinic Jews, the Karaites or the Qumran community followed the Biblical calendar, but for me, the evidence is accumulating that the AB was used from the time of Moses until the captivity. It seems to have been misinterpreted after that or been replaced by a strictly lunar calendar.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/27/05 08:53 PM

Rosangela, regarding the observation method of the ancient Jews, I am not disputing that the physical observation was important, but where it was impossible due to cloudy weather, the final authority rested with the priestly committee. Without the offical body of the Jews in Jerusalem, it is a misinterpretation of the Karaites to ignore the scripture 'YE shall proclaim'. They could form their own committee I suppose. But on cloudy days they have to rely on their own version of precalculation. Straight observation is not possible every month and the same weakness in their interpretations apply to the harvest as the trigger, but these are more serious.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/28/05 10:00 PM

Mark,

I believe there were inspired books outside of the canon, but these had only a local application and were not preserved for our knowledge. The Book of Enoch has many theological mistakes, which disqualifies it as inspired. It does contain a few truths among its many errors, but inspired prophets singled out those truths and they were preserved in the Bible.

What is strange to me is that you are attaching a great weight to a calendar that is found in an uninspired book, while at the same time discarding as incorrect a calendar that is found in the Bible. While we don’t have the minute details of either calendar, the system of intercalation of the calendar of Israel is intuitive; the same, however, cannot be said of the calendar you are presenting.

The Jews were a nation of former slaves, composed mostly of farmers and shepherds, and they weren’t advanced in astronomical studies like the Egyptians, the Babylonians and other ancient nations. At the time they left Egypt they had no means to figure out when the lunar conjunction occurred, therefore they had no choice but to use the visible crescent. They had no means to calculate the equinox, therefore God in His wisdom gave them a simple method of calendation through which they could keep the lunar year in pace with the seasons, and this was through the barley-harvest law.

"The Jews must have had a system of intercalation by which the lunar calendar was brought into harmony with the natural solar year. This is implied in the law dating the Passover feast unchangeably in the middle of the first month (Lev. 23:5) but also requiring the offering of a sheaf of the first fruits of grain (Lev. 23:10, 11). Thus the calendar was probably corrected by the insertion of embolismic months whenever needed to let the Passover occur at the beginning of barley harvest. This would automatically result in an average of seven embolismic months in nineteen years." (Horn and Wood, The Chronology of Ezra 7, pages 53-54).

It is the course of the sun that determines ripening of the grain, that is, the ripening of the grain is tied to the equinox. So, the barley-harvest law is equivalent in its effects to the 19-year cycle:

“The barley-harvest law, when applied to a continuous series of years, is the same in its performance as the law of the 19-year cycle. The lunar dates themselves follow the same law, and periodically, in harmony with the 19-year cycle principle, the extra moons are interpolated that bring the lunar year into harmony with the solar year. Every 19 years, the barley-harvest-moon dates repeat within a day” (Grace Amadon, “Ancient Jewish Calendation”, Journal of Biblical Literature, LXI, part IV, 1942).

This simple calendar, which didn’t require any calculations, served a practical purpose, revealed God’s wisdom, and fulfilled its role with success until the time God designed it to last – the coming of the Messiah. It was a calendar given specifically for the people of Israel – it wasn’t used before them, and, since it was tied to types, it shouldn’t be used after them.

P.S. Lunar months can have either 29 or 30 days. According to the Mishna, the Sanhedrin gathered on the thirtieth of the month, formally proclaiming the New Month only after it had heard evidence of witnesses who had actually seen the new moon. If the new moon was not sighted on this day, the proclamation would be made on the following day. There was no precalculation.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/29/05 05:31 AM

On your last comment, that would mean that when the weather was bad the month always had 30 days. We can be fairly sure the Jews did not follow that rule. They must have had some method of precalculating when the weather prevented observation.

I doubt that the Jews were as primative as you suggest. If you look at their history from the days of Abraham until today they have always been at the forefront of scientific knowledge. In captivity individual Jews always rose to the top positions of responsibility and scientific learning. Daniel and the three worthys as EGW calls them were 10 times better than the Babylonian scientists and statesmen. Mordicai, Ezra and Nehamiah all stood before Kings. Moses was trained in all the learning of Egypt - 28 year of it - including astronomy we can be sure.

Regarding local applications, that applies to most of the Bible and the testimonies in the sense that it too is local history. The principles are universal. Again, my interest in the AB calendar is because it is the only one I know of that explains certain Biblical time reckonings.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/30/05 04:34 AM

I am waiting for more information from Queen’s University. In the mean time, I’ll give an update of what I’m finding. There is apparently enough evidence in original documents such as the Dead Sea Scrolls to cause some scholars to find it a possibility that the AB calendar may have been the calendar used by the Jews during the first temple period – that is, Solomon’s temple.

One of the pieces of evidence in favour of that is that the Jews of Qumran cross-reference their calendar with the 24 priestly families that rotated their service on a weekly basis so that on average, one family line served a little more than two weeks per year. These 24 families are listed in 1 Chron. 24:1-19 and there is biblical and extra-biblical evidence that this rotation of priestly service was still in effect at the time of Christ. Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist, was on his bi-annual week long priestly rotation when the angel visited him. This passage in Chronicles tells us that King David made these divisions which is another witness that the design and provisions for service in the temple were given under inspiration to David.

I mentioned above that the plans for the first temple have been lost but might have been rediscovered. I would be very cautious before endorsing the Temple Scroll as the lost plans. I have not looked at it yet in detail, but I have looked at the Book of Jubilees in some detail and there is no doubt in my mind that it is a forgery.

This book covers about the same period of history as Genesis and claims to have been given by God to Moses when he was with God for 40 days on the Mount at the same time the law was proclaimed. It was an important book in the Qumran community. Several manuscripts of it have been found.

The Book of Jubilees states that the feasts are to be set according to the solar months, contradicting the Bible. This community, while it follows the AB calendar quite closely, uses the solar months to assign the feast days apparently on the authority of the Jubilees. The AB calendar itself does not do this. It is silent on the point which is in agreement with the time of its claimed authorship - before the flood and before the feasts were instituted.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/30/05 02:05 PM

Mark,

- I’ve examined the new moon reports of five years in the archives of the karaite korner and verified that poor weather conditions occur just three or four times in a year at the most but even when the sky is cloudy it is sometimes possible to see the new crescent. Thus in 1988 they couldn’t spot the new crescent twice, in 1999 twice, in 2000 once, in 2001 all new crescents were visible, and in 2002 twice.

- The writings of a non-canonic prophet apply to a specific time and circumstance, using principles that are already contained in the Bible. The writings of Ellen White, for instance, apply just to the last-day church.

- At the time the Jews arose as a nation astronomy was intimately associated with religion. Babylonians, Egyptians, Greeks and others studied the heavens because they worshipped the heavenly bodies. Astronomy was associated with astrology and numerology. It would be only natural that God would want to preserve His people from this form of idolatry (see Deut. 17:2-5; Jer. 10:2). The celestial luminaries were indeed celebrated in the Scriptures as works of God, but the appeal to them for practical purposes was reduced to a minimum. It was later, through Babylonian and Hellenic influence, that the Jews eventually got familiar with more advanced astronomical concepts.

- As to the prophetic reckoning, I don’t think the 360-day year mentioned in biblical prophecies has any relationship with the 364-day year of the AB calendar.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/30/05 03:33 PM

The modern Karaites will tell you what rules they follow if the weather is bad. They have some means. I've never asked them, but I would not be surprised if it is in their faq on the Karaite Korner.

Regarding the 360 day year, the scholars I've read so far ignor that aspect of the AB calendar, but it is there at Enoch in different places where the solar months always have 30 days and the manuscripts from Qumran confirm it. One 'mishmarot' fragment I noticed cross references not only the lunar and solar months with the priestly cycle, it also crossreferences the the 30 day cycle leaving out the intercalated seasonal days, just as in the Biblical prophecies and the biblical time reckoning of the flood.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/30/05 09:09 PM

They consult modern astronomy programs. If the moon is "potentially visible" but not sighted because of poor weather conditions, they celebrate New Moon Day, although the moon was not sighted. When modern astronomy can't say with certainty whether the New Moon will be visible or not, they go by raw observation. If the moon is not seen (because it is cloudy for several days in a row), they go by the rule that the maximum length of a month is 30 days.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/karaite_korner_news/message/73
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/02/05 02:05 AM

What you posted is reasonable for what they believe. There are no surprises there.

I decided not to put too much reliance on Queens because they need to spend their time with their students and staff. I'm reading J VanderKam's 'Calendars in the Dead Sea Scrolls,' 1998. VanderKam is a professor at Notra Dame which is about 40 miles south of our Andrews University. He is also one of the scholars responsible for manuscripts from Qumran cave 4, the only cave, I think, with manuscripts that have not been released to the public or to any other body. (The fact that after this many years some of the manuscripts have not been released has caused some fowl play theories to begin to circulate. I'm not concerned with that. There is a large amount that is available for study - the majority of it.)
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/03/05 03:31 AM

I would recommend VanderKam's book for anyone interested in this. VanderKam does not take the Bible as an inspired book, but his book is clear and his approach is objective. One of the things he points out is that from the earliest history of the Jews, there is Biblical evidence that they used some kind of system to accurately track long periods of time. Rosangela you suggested above that the Jews in slavery were likely primative in their astronomy. The text below however indicates that even in slavery, they kept a calendar that was capable of computing time over a period of 430 years without missing a single day.

quote:
12:40 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, [was] four hundred and thirty years.
12:41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.

Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/03/05 03:44 AM

The above text is significant for two other reasons as well. First, it is given in the context of the Exodus when the first Passover was Divinely decreed. In the first two verses of the same chapter it says:
quote:
12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,
12:2 This month [shall be] unto you the beginning of months: it [shall be] the first month of the year to you.

Putting verse 40 with the verses just above that tell us the Jews were driven out of Egypt on the night of the Passover, that is, the start of the 15th Hebrew day, we learn that Jacob and his 11 sons entered Egypt on the 15th day of the first month, 430 years earlier.

The second, more important aspect is that verse 40 implies a pre-existing calendar that is now being augmented in verse 1 forward to include the sacred feasts of the Hebrews. If that is true, then the method of tracking time in the Divine calendar is independent of the feasts.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/04/05 07:36 AM

Mark,

In my opinion you are inferring too much from that verse. The Bible is not referring to a human reckoning, but to a divine reckoning.

“But like the stars in the vast circuit of their appointed path, God's purposes know no haste and no delay. Through the symbols of the great darkness and the smoking furnace, God had revealed to Abraham the bondage of Israel in Egypt, and had declared that the time of their sojourning should be four hundred years. ‘Afterward,’ He said, ‘shall they come out with great substance.’ Gen. 15:14. Against that word, all the power of Pharaoh's proud empire battled in vain. On ‘the self-same day’ appointed in the divine promise, ‘it came to pass, that all the hosts of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt.’ Ex. 12:41. So in heaven's council the hour for the coming of Christ had been determined. When the great clock of time pointed to that hour, Jesus was born in Bethlehem” (DA 32).

God had a precise reckoning of the 430 years according to His promise; this doesn’t mean that the Israelites also had a precise reckoning of this time. In the same way that the great clock of time pointed to the precise hour of Jesus’ birth, but we humans don’t know the day, the month, or even the year in which Christ was born.

Not to mention several other problems involved here. The promise of God to Abram says 400 years, Ex. 12:40,41 and Gal. 3:16,17 say 430 years. Ex. 12:40 says that "the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years", while Galatians says that "to Abraham and his seed were the promises made... [and] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." That is, the law came 430 years after the promise made to Abram, so the meaning of the passage of Exodus cannot be that the israelites remained 430 years in Egypt.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/03/05 11:02 PM

It is true, Roseangela, there is more than one interpretation on the starting point of the 430 years of Ex 12:40. I don't want to get sidetracked with that issue. The point I am making is that the verse implies that the Jews were capable of precise time keeping. Of the many dates in the Bible I can't think of any other than future prophecies that are divinely revealed. You gave the example of the birth of Christ. That was a prophecy without a specific date. But, as a rule of interpretation, we should take historical data in the Bible as coming from known facts unless the context indicates otherwise. Why? Because God works through His people where possible.

But suppose you’re right, that the reckoning is one that the liberated Hebrews were oblivious to at the time. Does that change the import of the verse? If you are correct that actually adds more weight to my point which is that the verse strongly suggests a pre-existing Divine calendar. And the same inference should be drawn form the consentration of dates at the flood – that is, that a Divine calendar was in operation from the dawn of creation and that the dates of the flood, whether Noah was aware of it or not (the text implies that he was), occurred when mentioned in that calendar.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/03/05 11:18 PM

So, the answer to the question in the title of the thread is 'yes' IMO. I've said already that I think it is the AB calendar, but I'm open to other suggestions. In the mean time, I've given some of the reasons and I'll continue to post the evidence.

As a start, Rosangela has raised the objection that the 364 day cycle of the AB calendar would make it quickly go out of sync with the seasons. The Qumran scrolls however show that this community used the calendar sucessfully over a long period of time. There are some hints of how it was intercalated to keep it in sync, but scholars have not figured out the exact mechanism yet. They agree though that it was used effectively in daily life.

Another conclusion they have drawn is that the Qumran community tracked the phases of the moon as faithfully as they did the solar months. The main departure that these Jews made from scripture and their fellow Jews was in basing their feasts on the solar rather then the lunar portion of their calendar. But there are more primary sources on calendars outside of that community that I expect will help me to figure out how it worked.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/04/05 03:52 PM

The account of the flood tells us that in ancient times, the months used for reckoning time all had 30 days. The Bible prophecies that speak of months also all have 30 days. Since these two Biblical facts are the only evidence in the Bible regarding the length of the month in divine reckoning, we have no choice but to use this as our starting point to gain insight into the divine calendar. From here, we observe that twelve months of 30 days yields a 360 day year, again in agreement with biblical prophecy.

Is there any calendar that uses a 360 day year that might shed light on how the Biblical reckonings work? The only one I am aware of is the AB calendar. Scholars agree that in the AB calendar there is such a year indicated. The 360 day year in the AB calendar is in addition to the 364 day solar year. This year, although it receives the shortest amount of description actually turns out to be the most important. It is the base year that the lunar year of 354 days and the solar year of 364 days are compared to. It is the standard for the calendar.

In the AB calendar, the relationship between the three types of years is consistent for an 8 year cycle. The calendar implies that lunar months are intercalated in the third, fifth and eight years. There is some evidence for this practise in antiquity. VanderKam notes in his book at page 102 (ebook version) that Eusebius quotes Julius Africanus as saying that the Jews and Greeks both intercalate three months in eight years. This is probably the strongest piece of evidence I’ve encountered so far that the Jews even of the second Temple period – that is, in Christ’s day – used the AB calendar rather than the rabbinic calendar in use today which intercalates 7 months in 19 years. Eusebius Demonstration of the Gospel viii.2, 54.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/04/05 03:58 PM

Regarding intercalations for the 360 day base year, the AB calendar implies that one month is added to the lunar year at year five to bring in back in line with this base year.

The calendar also implies that no intercalations are allowed for the 364 day solar year until the end of year eight when a single week or possibly four weeks should be added periodically as required.

I figured out a simple way keep the lunar phases in sync with the observed new moon at the end of year eight – a two day adjustment. I haven’t worked out how to do it with the solar year yet – that would require figuring out a cycle similar to our Gregorian calendar but instead of intercalating a single day every four years, it would involve creating a set of rules for intercalating a week and/or four weeks at the end of year eight that ultimately yields an average year length close to 365.2422 days.

But the fact is that all calendars, including the pre-calculated ones, are ultimately based on observation. I understand that 365.2422 is a composite of observations. Perhaps the reason that no one, including Isaac Newton, has solved the three body problem is the admonition of Christ, ‘What I say unto you, I say unto all, Watch.’ If we knew exactly how to intercalate any calendar with complete accuracy we could stop watching the heavenly bodies for time-keeping purposes. Perhaps God won’t let us go that far. From the study of scripture we know that some things are beyond our grasp.

That said, it would not be difficult to construct a set of intercalation rules using the 8 year cycle and one and/or four weeks as the intercalation period(s) that would come very close to the mean solar year. Neither the Gregorian calendar nor the modern Jewish calendar which is more accurate than the Gregorian nor any other calendar is exact.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/04/05 04:57 PM

Mark,

The error of the Gregorian calendar is of one day every 3300 years, while the error of the Metonic cycle, used by the modern Jewish calendar, is of one day every 219 years. The Jewish calendar cannot be more accurate than the Gregorian calendar.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/05/05 02:40 AM

It depends on who you ask apparently. The Jews, some of them anyway, claim theirs is more accurate. Now that you mention it, I think I have heard your figures as well. But thanks for sharing those estimates of the inaccuracy. It tends to confirm the need for observation because no one has figured out a completely accurate system.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/05/05 03:34 AM

There is a growing minority of support in the scholarly community for the notion that the AB calendar was followed in OT times. The idea has been in circulation among bible historians for about 50 years now but initially it was accepted by only a very few. Today, more evidence is available and the number of scholars accepting this view is increasing.

To recap, this issue caught my attention because of the Biblical weaknesses in the Karaite reckoning that we rely on to support our date of October 22. In reviewing that issue I also noticed that we need a scriptural basis for our claim that the crucifixion was in 31AD because according to rabbinical reckoning, there was no Passover on a Thursday or Friday in that year. The AB calendar solves these issues. In addition, it explains the flood account and its reckoning of time.

Rosangela raised the objection that this is an uninspired book. As we know, however, the book of Enoch was quoted by Jude, and it was widely viewed as scripture in the Early Church. There are passages in it that appear to contradict the Bible, but the same can be said about passages within the Bible itself – the passages on predestination for example. Rosangela suggests that parts of it may be correct – Jude agrees with this – but we do not know which parts. Well, if we take that approach we can at a minimum consider whether this part of the book might also be inspired. If it is, we have a means of understanding prophecy better and of more precisely dating historical events in the Bible.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/05/05 04:02 PM

quote:
To recap, this issue caught my attention because of the Biblical weaknesses in the Karaite reckoning that we rely on to support our date of October 22.
Mark,

We can’t rely on the Karaite reckoning to support October 22, because there is no barley crop report of 1844 available to us. While the Millerites relied on it, we can’t do that. Juarez’s book demonstrates how to support the October 22 (in fact, October 23), 1844 date.

As to the AB calendar, if you want to use it to support October 22, you would have to first demonstrate its accuracy.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/06/05 04:27 AM

The accuracy of the solar part of the AB calendar is like a cross between the Karaite and Gregorian calendars. Whereas the Karaite calendar could be out of sync with the solar year by six weeks or more in say a very cold spring (and not able to define the year at all if the barley failed completely), the Gregorian although based on observation is completely precalculated. The AB calendar is in between the two extremes, with the solar clock being realigned every eight years so that it is possible to know within an acceptable tolerance what the day is. I'm not sure yet how that part is intercalated.

But I mentioned above that that I figured out a simple way to realign the lunar year within this calendar. That aspect is the one that we need to know to establish the feasts. If you'd like, I can show you how it works and give an estimate of it's accuracy.

I am very curious though about any Adventist theologian who is suggesting a new date for the commencement of Christ's ministry in the MHP. That, on the surface, seems incredible, given the SOP's claim that the October 22 date was confirmed to her by Divine revelation.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/06/05 02:23 PM

Mark,

If there has ever been a Biblical calendar, the only calendar which could be classified as such is the calendar of the people of Israel. By trying to discredit this calendar, you are trying to discredit God’s own instructions. They are very simple, and there is no way around them. One thing was tied to the other.

“10 Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, When you have come into the land which I give to you, and shall reap the harvest of it, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest.
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD to be received for you. On the next day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12 And you shall offer that day when you wave the sheaf, a male lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering to the LORD.
13 And its food offering shall be two-tenth parts of fine flour mixed with oil, a fire offering to the LORD for a sweet savor. And the drink offering of it shall be of wine, the fourth part of a hin.
14 And you shall eat neither bread, nor parched grain, nor green ears, until the same day, until you have brought an offering to your God. It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
15 And you shall count to you from the next day after the sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete.
16 To the next day after the seventh sabbath you shall number fifty days. And you shall offer a new food offering to the LORD. [Pentecost]”

As to October 22/23, you would be surprised to know what the position of the Millerites was. Why don’t you take a look at Juarez’s book?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/07/05 04:22 AM

Rosangela, if you have an electronic copy of the book by Jaurez can you post the parts you're referring to, send it to me, give me a link or tell me where I can find it on the internet. I'd prefer not to buy it.

You're aware that there is a centuries old debate among the Jews on which Sabbath is being referred to in that passage? If the Jews can't agree on how to interpret that portion, how can you build a Jewish calendar out of it? If you gave that passage to the average person and said this is how the a Jewish sect decides when the year begins they would probably look at the passage and then look at you blankly and wonder what you are talking about. What I am saying is that you have to read a lot of material into the text that is simply not there to arrive at the Karaite position.

You do not need to make any assumptions though to conclude that before the exodus, a month had 30 days and in the prophecies, a month has 30 days and a year 360.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/07/05 03:55 PM

Mark,

_ The link is in the first page of this thread.

_ The text is clear enough:

“And you shall count to you from the next day after the sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete. To the next day after the seventh sabbath you shall number fifty days. And you shall offer a new food offering to the LORD.”

The word “sabbath” means seventh day. Simple.
For the pharisees and rabbinical Jews to hold their theory, the word “sabbath” would have to be interpreted as two different things in the very same verse! At the beginning of the verse it would have to mean “holy day” and at the end of the verse it would have to mean “seven days”. If the argument was that the word “shabbath” can mean a week from Sunday to Sabbath, it could still be considered. But saying that “shabbath” can mean any period of seven days is completely absurd. This argument doesn’t have any biblical support.
Besides, if Shavuot (Pentecost) was supposed to fall on a fixed calendar date, as the Rabbanites maintain, the Torah would have mentioned this date, as it indeed does for all the other holidays. However, if Shavuot is meant to always fall on a Sunday, the calendar date would change every year and this explains why the Torah did not mention a date for this holiday.

- The calendar explained in the Bible is very simple, logical, and intuitive, and modern karaite reckoning demonstrates that it works exactly like the 19-year cycle, as scholars in the past had supposed.

quote:
You do not need to make any assumptions though to conclude that before the exodus, a month had 30 days and in the prophecies, a month has 30 days and a year 360.
Mark, you are speaking of a 364-day calendar that no one knows how to intercalate, and which has nothing to do with a prophetic period of 360 days which must necessarily be equivalent to 360 x 365.2422 days, which is the duration of a true solar year.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/08/05 04:47 AM

Think about this logically Rosangela. God knows that the Jews would need to plan ahead. He knew the Jews would be the leading nation of the world for a time under Kings David and Solomon, and probably the most technologically advanced nation during that time. Do you think He would saddle them with a calendar that prevents knowing what day of the month it would be in the very next week, and not knowing how many months the current year would have? Ask the Karaites themselves how many of them run their businesses based on their calendar. I fully expect you will find that while they set their feasts by their lunar observations and the barley harvest, that they don’t run their lives by it. Even if the world followed the Karaite calendar, it would have to have a second method of tracking time just for planning purposes. Do you not think God understands that?

We are covering the same ground now. I’ve addressed these points but I don’t think you have addressed mine. A fear of encouraging others to take a candid look at the Book of Enoch I think is part of the issue here. Also, you don’t seem to be following what I’ve said about the three years of the AB calendar. We will have to disagree and that can be a healthy thing.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/08/05 03:50 PM

Mark,

What I think is that you are approaching the subject with a 21st-century mentality. All ancient peoples struggled with their calendars. Even in Babylonia, the cradle of astronomy, “the intercalation was operated haphazardly, according to real or imagined needs, and each Sumerian city inserted months at will; e.g., 11 months in 18 years or two months in the same year. Later, the empires centralized the intercalation, and as late as 541 B.C.E. it was proclaimed by royal fiat.”

However,

“Whenever the king felt that the calendar had slipped too far out of step with the seasons, he ordered another extra month. However, the Babylonian calendar was quite confused until the 300's B.C.E., when the Babylonians began to use a more reliable system.”

“Improvements in astronomical knowledge eventually made possible the regularization of intercalation; and, under the Persian kings (c. 380 B.C.E.), Babylonian calendar calculators succeeded in computing an almost perfect equivalence in a lunisolar cycle of 19 years and 235 months.”

http://webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-ancient.html (also here some interesting information about the 360-day year)

But while Babylonia was struggling to find a correct way to intercalate their calendar and only discovered it in the fourth century B.C., the Jews, since 1500 B.C., had a simple and practical system of intercalation, based on nature, which worked like the 19-year cycle the Babylonians took so long to discover. (That it worked like the 19-year cycle, as I said, was demonstrated by modern karaites.)

There are two ancient abib reports preserved in the Talmud. These accounts were both preserved in Palestinian Aramaic, and not the usual Babylonian Aramaic, which suggests they may date back at least to the 2nd century CE, if not to the actual period of the events described. The first one dates to the last generation of the Second Temple period:

"For it has been taught: It once happened that Rabban Gamaliel was sitting on a step on the Temple Mount, and the well known Scribe Yohanan was standing before him with three cut sheets [of parchment] lying before him. [Rabban Gamaliel said] ...take the third [sheet] and write to our brethren, the Exiles of Babylon and to those in Media, and to all the other exiled [sons] of Israel, saying: ‘May your peace be great forever! We beg to inform that the doves are still tender and the lambs are still too young and the Abib is not yet ripe. It seems advisable to me and to my colleagues to add thirty days to this year.’" (Babli Sanhedrin 11b)

A second Abib Report is also preserved in the Talmud, this one dating to the first generation after the destruction of the Second Temple:

"R. Yannai said in the name of R. Simeon b. Gamaliel [quoting his letter to the Communities]: 'We beg to inform you that the doves are still tender and the lambs still young, and the Abib is not yet ripe. I have considered the matter and thought it advisable to add thirty days to the year.'" (Babli Sanhedrin 11a).

These historical reports confirm that this system was still being used in the first or second century CE, before the precalculated calendar was adopted.

Qumran, on the other hand, was an isolated community whose practices and teachings differed from Israel, and they declared the Jews were in apostasy. To them the temple was a corrupt place they would not visit and the Jewish calendar was in error. As to Jesus, however, when He is reported to have attended the Temple, He is shown to have done so in conjunction with the official dates.

quote:
I’ve addressed these points but I don’t think you have addressed mine.
Sorry if I missed some point. Which point haven’t I addressed?

quote:
Also, you don’t seem to be following what I’ve said about the three years of the AB calendar.
Mark, you are working on the basis of speculations. For most scholars the Qumran community had only a 364-day “solar” calendar. You’ve added a lunar calendar and now a 360-day calendar. What authority can you quote in support of a 360-day calendar for the Qumran community? Also, how can the October 22, 1844 date be demonstrated using any of these calendars, beginning with 457 B.C.?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/10/05 05:32 AM

You are adopting the secular view that technology has continually advanced from ancient times, but this if false. The antidiluvians were advanced far beyond our current technology. Physical evidence is beginning to surface to that effect. For example, in the 1940's or 50's a hammer with a petrified wood handle was found with a head made of a steel alloy with something like 2% chlorine. It does not rust. No one has made an alloy like that yet in modern times.

Because the early Babylonians may have been primative does it follow that the rest of the world was equally backward? How much research have you done of say ancient Egypt or of China? And what of the civilization where no record survives? Since those descended from Noah knew much of the technology from before the flood, we cannot assume backwardness where no records survive.

No Rosangela, I don't see an openness to look candidly at the evidence. Your statement about the opinions of the DSS scholars on the lunar, solar and 360 days of the Qumran calendar is incorrect. The consensus of opinion among scholars is that the community was as much attuned to the lunar cycle as they were the solar. While they set their religious feasts by the solar months, the lunar cycle was consistently cross-referenced. These calendrical documents are called Mishmarot apparently.

It is true that evidence of the existence of the 360 day calendar in Qumran is sparce, but that it is indicated plainly in the AB calendar is not in question. I'll post a quote by James VanderKam, probably the leading American authority on the issue.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/10/05 06:09 AM

In saying above that the evidence for a 360 calendar at Qumran is sparce, I should add that all of the manuscripts from Cave 4, the cave with the Mishmarot texts, have not been released.

In the Conclusions chapter of the book, regarding the importance of the lunar segment of the calendar, VanderKam states:
quote:

Appearance of the 364-day solar year in the texts from the caves proves that the Qumran community belonged in the same calendrical tradition as the one embodied in I Enoch and Jubilees. But the cave 4 calendrical documents just as clearly set forth a schematic, 354-day lunar arrangement that was brought into alignment with the solar calendar by regular inter-calations. There is no clear indications in the texts that the lunar system was inferior as was the case in the Jubilees. Pages 272 and 3 of the ebook version of ‘Calendars in the Dead Sea Scrolls, James C. VanderKam.

Regarding the 360 day year in the AB calendar, VanderKam quotes I Enoch 75:1-2:

1 And the leaders of the heads of the thousands, who are placed over the whole creation and over all the stars, have also to do with the four intercalary days, being inseparable from their office, according to the reckoning of the year, and these render service on the four days which are not 2 reckoned in the reckoning of the year.

Then he states:
quote:

That is, the four days that are the distinctive trait of the schematic solar calendar in I Enoch are additional in some sense; the base year to which they are added at fixed intervals (in months 3, 6, 9 and 12)is one of 360 days. Pages 73 of the ebook version of ‘Calendars in the Dead Sea Scrolls, James C. VanderKam.

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/11/05 07:52 AM

Mark,
The link I provided yesterday explains the Egyptian calendar

http://webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-ancient.html (the Egyptian calendar is just below the Babylonian).

And also the Chinese calendar

http://webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-chinese.html

I had taken a look at all of them and I see the same struggle of all ancient nations with their calendars.

As I said yesterday, the link also provides information about the 360-day calendar. It says:

"In the eighth century B.C.E., civilizations all over the world either discarded or modified their old 360 day calendars. The 360 day calendars had been in use for the greater part of a millennium. In many places, month lengths immediately after that change were not fixed, but were based instead upon observation of the sky."

I've even read somewhere in the Internet that some believe the orbit of the earth was once of 360 days.

Mark, I’m very practical, and I don’t see how this AB calendar could help with the 1844 question. It seems you cannot prove 1844 with the solar calendar since no one knows how to intercalate it. How was the lunar calendar intercalated? Can you prove 1844 with it – beginning at 457 B.C.?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/11/05 02:10 AM

Rosangela, did you notice this statement on the web site you linked to regarding the World Calendar, one of the two calendars that is being proposed to take the place of the Gregorian calendar:

quote:

The World Calendar is . . . divided into four quarters of 91 days each, with an additional day at the end of the year. In each quarter, the first month is of 31 days and the second and third of 30 days each. The extra day comes after December 30 and bears no month or weekday designation, nor does the intercalated leap year day that follows June 30. In the World Calendar January 1, April 1, July 1, and October 1 are all Sundays.

The first thing I want to draw attention to in this quote is that the description is close to the solar part of the AB calendar, and there is no problem with the intercalation issue. The solution offered here is just one of many possibilities. The AB calendar does not set out the rules of intercalation explicitly, but they are implied. It would be quite easy for an astronomer with average ability to design the intercalation rules. The above calendar which also has 364 days plus one intercalated day and a periodic leap day shows it is not hard to do.

The more important thing I want to draw your attention to however is that both of the proposed international calendars disturb the weekly cycle – another evidence that this issue will affect us in the future. The man of sin will again ‘think to change the times’. Daniel indicates this is especially an end time issue. So it is good to become familiar now with calendar issues and address the question of whether there is a Divine calendar. We need to consider the implications of taking a position that there is no Divine calendar. If there is no Divine calendar, there is no Sabbath.

You say the Karaite calendar is the Divine one, but that is just too incredible for all of the reasons I've posted and that I don't think you have addressed. The Karaites are like many Christians, they are selective in what they base their position on. Adventism cannot follow that example. All calendrical statements in scripture must be used.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/11/05 02:15 AM

Regarding how the AB calendar - the lunar segment - confirms both 31 AD and October 22, 1844 as the correct dates, my application of the calendar is in one of the first posts on the thread I think. I can repost it if you'd like.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/11/05 04:24 AM

Mark,

Any system of intercalation to the AB calendar can only be speculative, because the Book of Enoch mentions no system of intercalation.

As to the Karaite calendar, I’ve never said it is the divine calendar. What I said is that it was a simple, practical and temporary calendar God designed for the Israelites to use until the coming of the Messiah. I don’t think it was used before the Israelites left Egypt, and I don’t think it should be used after the cross. Yet it is the only calendar described in the Bible.

Although apocalyptic prophecy uses a 360-day calendar, the number 360 was chosen because of its symbolism. It’s a multiple of 3, 12 and 10, three key numbers in apocalyptic prophecy. But the reckoning of prophetic time is done in terms of years of 365.2422 days.

I think I’ve addressed all your objections, but I don’t think you have addressed the points I made. I think we will simply have to disagree.

If I’m not mistaken, at some point you mentioned that the intercalation of this lunar calendar was thought to be made using 8-year cycles; this would produce an error of one day every five years (much less accurate than the Metonic cycle).

In order to prove that this calendar helps in the question of 1844, you would have to begin at the beginning – 457 B.C. William H. Shea tried to prove October 22, 1844 using the Metonic cycle, but failed to take into consideration that the reckoning of the 2300 days involves Julian calendar dates, Gregorian calendar dates, and solar years, besides the fact that he accepted Froom’s wrong scheme of Tishri 10 as October 21/22. Thus, he obviously wasn't able prove the date convincingly.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/11/05 04:34 AM

As to the Sabbath, it was always and will always be dependent on the weekly cycle, not on the yearly calendar, so this question has nothing to do with a Divine calendar. Besides, I don't think the weekly cycle will be modified in the future, because this would do away not only with the Sabbath, but also with Sunday - and both days have a fundamental role in the last crisis.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/11/05 04:59 PM

Well, Rosangela, you think there can be a weekly Sabbath without a Divine calendar? That is unfortunate.

Here is the plan of the Solar aspect of the AB calendar and how it should be intercalated in my opinion:

An eight year cycle is used so that no intercalations take place during that cycle. That means the calendar falls behind the actual solar year by about 10 days in eight years – 1.2422 x 8 = 9.9376 days. The solar part of the AB calendar must be intercalated using weeks according to the text. So the first rule of intercalation (of the solar part) is that a week is added every 8 years. The excess in days, 1.9376 has to be made up by adding a second week periodically. The second rule of intercalation is that the excess is made up using convergence by adding a second week every fourth eight year cycle leaving a remainder of .7504 days. That requires adding a third week once in every 40th eight year cycle (every 320th year) and a fourth week every 560th eight year cycle (every 4,480th year), and so on. This system is completely accurate except for the fact that the year itself is changing in length. And it only has two rules – one week every eight years, and the excess being made up by the second convergence rule.

Would you like to see my lunar intercalations?

Edited to correct the last part of the calculations - Mark S.

[ December 11, 2005, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Mark Shipowick ]
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/11/05 05:13 PM

It would be a mistake to underestimate the importance of calendar reform in the end times. The key characteristic of the papal institution is its claim to be the final authority in temporal and secular matters. It has a long history of imposing its will on the people contrary to scripture. We cannot afford to be naive. It would be completely consistent with the Papal character to endorse a calendar that disturbs the weekly cycle. Sunday will still be Sunday in this new calendar, but for 'convenience, world harmony, business facilitation etc' it will be 'adjusted' one day each year and two in leap years.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/11/05 05:22 PM

I should add that you may be right that Catholicism resists this reform initially, maybe even throughout the rest of its existence, but as I state above, it would be consistent with its character to endorse the calendar. If it does not, we still have the final beast of Revelation 13, the image beast which I believe is the religion of the New World Order. This final image beast is likely the one under which calendar reform will be made IMO.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/12/05 04:01 PM

Mark,

- Would the Lord give such a complicated calendar for His people to follow? A week every 8 years, a second week every 32 years, and I myself lost track of things at the last part (320, 560, 4,480...)

- I didn’t understand why the intercalations have to be made using weeks if four days are arbitrarily intercalated at the end of each year, or one day at the end of each quarter.

- It is clear that the AB calendar is a 364-day calendar and not a 360-day calendar. If it was a 360-day calendar no intercalation would be made yearly, but just periodically. If some days were to be intercalated yearly, the logical intercalation would be of five days (as in the Egyptian calendar), not of four days.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/12/05 08:42 PM

For someone not familiar with calendars my method may seem complex, but if you compare it to the Gregorian calendar, it is about the same level of complexity (neither one is sophisticated) and the method that I'm suggesting was used anciently is a little more accurate than our modern calendar.

The Qumran scholars agree that the 364 day part of the calendar is intercalated in units of weeks. They know that because the New Year is always a Wednesday. From that fact they know that the smallest intercalation unit that would be possible is a week.

The AB calendar does not say that the solar year is intercalated using a week, but it is strongly implied. For example, both the year of 364 days and the four quarters of 91 days are divisable by seven stongly suggesting that one of the purposes of the solar year/calendar is to preserve the weekly cycle. So the Qumran community is correct in how they have interpreted and applied the AB calendar IMO on this issue.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/14/05 03:44 AM

I downloaded the Jaurez book Rosangela and have to say, it shows that a lot of effort was expended.

I read the first 20 or so pages so I have an idea of what is being said, but the electronic version of the book has no table of contents or index. Can you post the parts you're referring to that would change the October date to the 23rd. You may think that is my spin, but really, I think that would be the result. My understanding of Oct 22 is that when the sun went down that day, the Millerites were heart broken. It was the morning of the 23rd as they were trying to regain their composure that Hiram Edson and his friend walking through the cornfield was vividly impressed with the thought that Christ had come on Oct 22 to the heavenly sanctuary rather than to the earth.

As more evidence comes to light on the nature of the ancient Hebrew calendar, Adventists need to take a fresh look at their assumptions - the main one being that the Rabbinical or Karaite calendars were in use anciently in Israel.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/14/05 03:37 PM

Mark,

Read chapter four (IV), and afterwards we can discuss the details.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/15/05 03:58 AM

Rosangela, Juarez is correct IMO on the issue of the timing of the Day of Atonement in 1844. He says the Millerites observed that the Day of Atonement should be calculated according to Jerusalem time which would mean that it started at about 10AM Boston time on the 22nd and ended 24 hours later on the 23rd. I agree.

Juarez also quotes the account of Hiram Edson. In my last post, I was mistaken that Edson and the Millerites lost hope at sundown. The account says they lost hope at the midnight of the 22nd. Juarez shows that while many of them believed the Day of Atonement was not completely over until 10AM of the 23rd, Boston time, rightly or wrongly, according to the account of Edson, they did not expect Christ to come after midnight of the 22nd.

But Juarez has made several other important statements in that chapter that support what I am saying regarding the use of the AB calendar anciently:

quote:


When we examine the calendar in use at the beginning of the prophetic period, in Ezra’s time, it is found that in the calendar of the Elephantine Jews of that time (which shows a close harmony of dates with the Babylonian calendar ) the new year never began earlier than the vernal equinox. Though these are Elephantine dates, the Jews who settled there must have preserved the calendrical practices brought from Israel. Besides, they were in correspondence with their brethren in Palestine,8 who returned from Babylon in the beginning of the reign of Cyrus, and must have wished to keep their calendar, as far as possible, in harmony with the calendar in Jerusalem; therefore, their calendar can give us a close idea of how the calendar in Jerusalem was like.

After stating the above, Juarez suggests this is evidence that the Karaite method of reckoning is used, but the probability of having no early springs in Palestine anciently is very slim. I would suggest what is being observed here is actually much stronger evidence that the AB calendar or a calendar with similar rules which uses the vernal equinox as the starting point of both the lunar and solar years was in use at the time.

Juarez goes on and notes that the contemporary Samaritans also followed the same practise:
quote:

The Samaritan records also show that their method of determining the New Year was on the new moon subsequent to the equinox and not before it, although it appears that at some point in time they began to hold to a fixed 25 March equinox, which they still observe. Page 88-9

At page 101 Juarez states that until we definitely know the starting date of 457 BC, we have to rely on 31AD as the anchor date. But my reply, Juarez, is that we have the testimony of Genesis, written by Moses that a calendar was in place before the Exodus. The account of the flood makes that clear. The implication from this and other statements such as in Exodus 12:40, it that the Feasts were fit within that divine calendar. It is up to us to piece that calendar together using all Biblical calendrical statements. The evidence continues to mount that the AB calendar is the only one that provides all of the answers and is the only one in complete harmony with all calendrical statements found in scripture.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/16/05 03:05 AM

Regarding the first fruits sheaf offering, Rosangela, which the Karaites use to mark the beginning of the new year, it is understandable why the Jews would look to the books of Moses to find a rule. They, the Millerites and Adventists have thought that since this feast is the only one that does not have a set date, that it sets the beginning of the year. But there is a better explanation for the lack of a date, which is that this particular feast does and must be variable depending as it does on the stage of growth of the grain crops. Since the books of Moses indicate that a calendar was already in place, the feasts fit within that calendar. But a feast that is tied to the ripeness of a crop cannot have a fixed date.

In support of that idea is the fact that the type of grain is not specified in Lev. 23. The Karaites say barley, but the text does not specify. God provided here that the Jews were free to introduce new varieties of grain, and the one that ripened first would be the proper one to offer because verses 10 to 17 make two points clear: 1) That as a first fruits waive offering, like all first fruits offerings, the waive sheaf stands as a substitute and in the place of the rest of all the grain crops in Isreal for the year, and 2) as such, no other grain crop may be eaten until the first fruits are offered. So the Mosaic law intends that whichever crop is headed out first, a waive sheaf from that crop is the proper one to offer. After that, the nation is free to begin consuming the grain of the new year of all varieties as the varieties ripen in their turn.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/16/05 02:41 PM

Mark,

You are confusing things. The only feast which does not have a fixed calendar date is Pentecost, which begins to be counted from the day when the wave sheaf is presented, and the wave sheaf is presented on the morrow after the Sabbath during Passover Week. This means that Pentecost would always fall on a Sunday, but the calendar date would be variable.

Abib indicates a stage in the development of the barley crops. This is clear from Ex 9: 31, 32 which describes the devastation caused by the plague of hail:

"And the flax and the barley were smitten, because the barley was Abib and the flax was Giv'ol. And the wheat and the spelt were not smitten because they were dark (Afilot)."

Barley is and has always been the first grain to ripen in Palestine.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/16/05 04:19 PM

Penticost, Rosangela, is set by the waiving of the sheaf, agreed? It comes 50 days afterwards. But regarding the timing of the sheaf of first fruits, the text says the sheaf was waved ‘the morrow after the Sabbath’. That is all it says. Modern Jews, if I remember correctly, think this means the sheaf is waived the day after the Passover which is a Sabbath according to them (and I think they are correct that Passover is a Sabbath because it is a day of rest), but the text only states that the sheaf should be waived after a Sabbath, and the reason for this is very practical - it may not be ripe until a week or two or more after the Passover. So the text only requires the waiving to take place after the Passover or after a subsequent Sabbath. Isn’t that a more reasonable explanation than taking the provision to be the marker of the New Year? Whose position agrees better with the account of Creation that the sun and moon should mark the seasons, not the crops?

But regarding the plague, you are reading more into the text than is there, and one of the tests is whether your position is reasonable. If the Lord knew that barley would always be the first grain to ripen, I think He would have been specific. God is always specific when He wants to be. Since He does not specify, it is a mistake to be more specific than Him. That is the downfall of the Rabbinical Jews – being more specific than God is and reading more into the text than is there and in this way displacing scripture with human reasoning. No, God wanted the Hebrews to be free to introduce other crops. He placed no restrictions of which grains the He had created they could eat. If your position is followed, and the Isrealites found an earlier ripening grain that they liked, they would not have been able to cultivate it.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/17/05 03:00 AM

Mark,

The subject is very simple. There are several grains cultivated in Palestine but the first grain to ripen after the winter is barley.

The story of the Exodus relates that the Israelites left Egypt "in the month of the Abib" (Ex 13: 4). And God told them that that month should be the first month of the year for them (Ex. 12:2). We know that the grain that was Abib at that month was barley (Ex. 9: 31, 32). So Abib is the month when barley ripens. Any biblical dictionary or commentary will tell you that.

Christ “was the antitype of the wave sheaf, and His resurrection took place on the very day when the wave sheaf was to be presented before the Lord” {DA 785}. After His resurrection Christ remained 40 days on earth (Acts 1:3), and “after the ascension of Christ, the Holy Spirit did not immediately descend. There were ten days after His ascension before the Holy Spirit was given.” {TDG 10.2}. Everything perfectly synchronized – exactly 50 days until the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Christ’s resurrection occurred on Sunday – the day of the wave sheaf. Did it occur on Sunday because this day was after the weekly Sabbath (as the Karaites say) or because it was after the festival Sabbath (as the Rabbanites say)? It must be for the first reason, because the year 31 A.D. does not admit a Nisan 14 as the day for Christ’s death.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/17/05 04:40 PM

In reading the DA this morning I found a statement by Ellen White on the timing of the Passover and the waving of the sheaf of first fruits. In her statement below, she says that the Passover was in late March or early April which places it after the vernal equinox. In the paragraph after that she says that the wave sheaf of the first fruits was celebrated on the second day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is how I suggested the modern Jews interpret the passage in my post above. Since the second day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is only occasionally the day after the seventh day Sabbath, she is agreeing here with the modern Jewish interpretation that ‘the morrow after the Sabbath’ means the day after the Sabbath of the Passover. I agree with this.

Using her reckoning, the Passover sequence runs like this: The Passover is sacrificed on the afternoon of the 14th of Nisan and eaten that same evening which is the beginning of the 15th and also the beginning of the first day of Unleavened Bread. On 16th Nissan, the sheaf is waved.

I suggested above that since Lev 23 does not specify the Passover as being the 'Sabbath', in years where the crop is late, any subsequent Sabbath will do. That is one possible solution. The other is that the waving must follow the Passover Sabbath, but in years the crop is late, it is permissible to waive unheaded stocks of grain. After reading her comments, this latter interpretation is the more likely one.

quote:
The time of the Passover corresponded to the close of March or the beginning of April, and the whole land was bright with flowers, and glad with the song of birds. . . .

The Passover was followed by the seven days' feast of unleavened bread. On the second day of the feast, the first fruits of the year's harvest, a sheaf of barley, was presented before the Lord. DA 76

You can see in this quote also that she tells us barley was used. So while you are right, Rosangela that this is an historic fact we still have the scriptural fact that barley was not specified, and therefore not a requirement. The only requirement was that it should be the first ripe grain because it stood in place of all the grain crops.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/17/05 09:16 PM

If Ellen White is correct that the sheaf is waved on the second day of Unleavened Bread, this needs to be harmonized with the gospel account of the crucifixion. The gospels indicate that Jesus ate the Passover Thursday night, was crucified Friday, rested Sabbath and rose Sunday. If Passover was Thursday, the sheaf would be waved Sabbath which would not harmonize with the resurrection on Sunday. That suggests that the Passover in 31 AD was on Friday, in which case Christ and the disciples ate the Passover meal one day early, on Thursday, so that He could fulfil the type on the actual day. If the Passover was Friday, then that reckoning works properly because the second day of Unleavened bread would be Resurrection Sunday. And I think we all agree that Christ is the 'first fruits of them that sleep', so that the second day of Unleavened Bread when the first fruits of grain were presented must have been Resurection Sunday in that year.

The Adventist objection to this interpretation is that under Karaite rules of lunar observation the latest the Passover could be is Thursday, the 24th. So some Adventists have maintained that Thursday must be the actual Passover date.

Well, the AB calendar may help us here as well. Rather than using observation to determine every new moon, the AB calendar lunations are pre-calculated. I have found an intercalation method that I believe may have been used anciently that would keep the astronomical new moon in line with the calculated new moon within one day. In other words, this intercalation method keeps the AB New Moon within one day of the observed New Moon and is accurate to within a day for about 4000 years. By way of comparison, the Gregorian Calendar is said to be accurate to within one day in 2,500 to 3,500years. The reason I mention this here is that although the Karaite method of reckoning will not allow Friday the 25th to be a Passover date, the AB calendar, due to it’s one day variation from the observed does allow the Friday the 25th to be the Passover.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/18/05 02:25 PM

Mark,

No precalculated method would give Nisan 14 on Friday, April 27 (not 25) in 31 AD, because the conjunction was on April 10. Besides, as I said before, for this to happen the previous month would have had to be longer than 30 days, which is inadmissible in a lunar calendar.

However, even if we considered Friday as Nisan 14, this wouldn't solve the tension existent within Ellen White's own writings, for she says:

"He knew that His hour was come; He Himself was the true pascal lamb, and on the day the Passover was eaten He was to be sacrificed" (DA 708).

Everybody knows that the passover lamb was eaten, together with unleavened bread, on Nisan 15.

All these problems and many others are analyzed on chapter three (III) of Juarez´s book.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/18/05 04:09 PM

Are you using Julian dates to arrive at Friday as the 27th. I’m using software produced by R Hoffman. It seems reliable and agrees with the 7000 Year Calendar software. My software gives Thursday April 10 as the observed New Moon. If we add 14 days, we come to Thursday the 24th as the latest possible Passover according to the observed method. The AB however has a one day variance built into it and would allow Friday to be the Passover.


Your statement that Passover was eaten by the Jews on the 15th surprised me, but I may have misunderstood you. The passages in Exodus, Lev and Numbers tell us that the Passover lamb was to be slain on the afternoon of the 14th and eaten that evening. If you mean that the Passover was eaten on the evening at the beginning of the 15th, then I agree. But the scripture requires the sacrifice of the Passover lamb before sundown of the 14th. No sacred offering could be offered after dusk. So the Jews from the Exodus until today celebrate the Passover from the afternoon of the 14th.

I need to clarify a point I made above. The Passover itself is not a day of rest. The Feast of Unleavened bread is bracketed by two Sabbaths, one on the first day, and one on the last. What Ellen White was saying was that the phrase ‘morrow after the Sabbath’ refers to the first Sabbath of the feast, Nisan 15. I have not seen any tension on this issue with Ellen White.


quote:
23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
23:7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
23:8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day [is] an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work [therein].

Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/18/05 04:15 PM

Regarding the intercalation method for the lunar part of the AB calendar, that is mostly set out in the text of the Astronomical Book. It says there that the lunar year has 354 days and thus falls behind the solar year of 364 days by 30 days in 3 years, 50 in five and 80 in eight. Years three, five and eight are therefore the years for intercalating an additional lunar month of 30 days. How does the math work out?


If we multiply 354 days x 8 years, there are 2832 days in eight lunar years before intercalations. Then we add a 30 day month in year 3 and a 30 day month in year five, (this keeps the lunar months in line with the seasons) so that prior to adding the final month in the 8 year cycle we have 2892 days. (2832 +30+30 = 2892) Just before adding the final month we insert two extra days into the lunar calendar to keep it aligned with the observed New Moon. Now we have a cycle of 98 lunar months (12 x 8 + 2 = 98) and there are 2894 days in that cycle (2832 + 30 + 30 + 2 = 2894.)

This results in an average lunar month of 29.53061 days (2894/98 = 29.53061) which is .000023395 days more than the current observed value according to the British Royal Observatory at Greenwich. So we have a one day drift in about 4000 years when the lengthening of the month is factored in.

Then we add the final 30 day month.

This 98 month / 2984 day rule will keep the lunar part of the AB calendar accurate so long as each successive cycle of 98 months is intercalated to yield a total day count of 2894 days.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/19/05 01:31 AM

Mark, either you are using the software incorrectly or the software itself is incorrect. (I've edited this to add that a third possibility is that the software is using the Gregorian calendar projected backwards. Even if this is the case, we have a 17-day interval between the astronomical new moon and the Friday on which Christ died. No lunar calendar, precalculated or not, would give this Friday as a Nisan 14.)

This page of the Naval Observatory

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/SpringPhenom.html

can confirm that the astronomical new moon was on April 10, noon, in 31 CE.

The same page informs that the vernal equinox in that year was on March 23, a Friday. This confirms that the following Fridays were March 30, April 6, April 13, April 20 and April 27.

quote:
If you mean that the Passover was eaten on the evening at the beginning of the 15th, then I agree.
Yes, that’s what I mean. The paschal lamb was eaten after sunset, that is, on Nisan 15, the first day of unleavened bread.
Now did you see what she said? That "on the day the Passover was eaten He was to be sacrificed". This means He should die on a Nisan 15. If Friday was Nisan 15, Christ was raised on Nisan 17, which disagrees with her statement that the sheaf was waved on Nisan 16.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/19/05 01:51 AM

My software says Friday April 27, 31AD is a Julian date. The same day on the Gregorian calendar is Friday, April 25. Scholars like to use Julian dates because a lot of history has been recorded using that calendar, but since we're more familiar with the Gregorian calendar, I think we should use that. Is that OK with you?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/19/05 02:41 AM

Rosangela over the years, I've developed a respect for Ellen White as a Bible scholar with very few peers. Like you, I've noted certain statements that have caused me to wondered if she was being consistent but further study has always resolved the issue. She was not infallible, but I have not yet seen an incorrect interpretation of scripture from her pen.

This issue can be resolved if you're willing to entertain the possibility that Friday was the Passover, Nisan 14. That harmonizes with scripture that Christ was the Passover lamb much better than the current view of some Adventists, including myself until recently, that Christ celebrated the Passover with His disciples on the actual day and the Friday was Nisan 15. Since Christ is the anti-typical Passover lamb, Friday is by far the date that harmonizes best with this symbol.

This view also harmonizes with her statement that the sheaf was waived on the second day of Unleavened bread, Nisan 16, resurrection Sunday. If we insist that Thursday was the Passover, the symbolism breaks down again because it makes Sabbath the day of waiving the sheaf while Christ rested in the tomb – a serious problem that is solved again by making Friday the actual Passover.

The statement from Ellen White that Christ was crucified on the day the Passover was eaten means the Passover was eaten Passover evening. The scripture requires that the Passover lamb is slain and prepared and eaten on the 14th.
quote:
23:5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD's passover. Lev
It is true the meal would continue on after sundown but from the above text we see that the meal was to start before sundown on the evening of the 14th.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/19/05 02:56 AM

These things will likely not make any difference to some who have fixed views, but to me, it is exciting material. I'm indebted to you Rosangela for testing my position. For every objection you've raised, the evidence grows stronger that the Jews anciently did not follow either the Karaite or Rabbinical calendars. Isn't it time we looked at the alternatives rather than trying to prop up a calendar that cannot be harmonized with either scripture or the pivitol dates of Daniel 8 and 9?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/20/05 07:25 AM

Rosangela, I’ll be away for 8 days starting this Wednesday. In the mean time, I hope you’ll have a look at where we stand in our discussions.

In my view, after noting the statements by Ellen White on the issue here on page 4 of the thread and the agreement of those statements with Lev 23 the conclusion is inescapable that Passover was on Friday in 31AD. If that is the case we have no alternative but to look for another calendar because by Karaite reckoning, the latest Passover could be in April of that year is Thursday.

But I think this is good news. If the Karaite method is incorrect and we replace it with the calendar that was actually in use anciently, that will help to better explain bible chronology and will be a significant contribution to historic and prophetic studies. I hope you will share this with Juarez. I'd be interested in his input.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/19/05 09:10 PM

Mark,

I'm sorry to not agree with your conclusion. It makes no difference whether you use Julian or Gregorian dates. If you consider Friday as April 25, you have to consider the date of the conjunction as April 8 – which still gives a 17-day difference between the date of the conjunction and the Friday Christ died. No astronomer in the world would accept the position that that Friday could be considered a Nisan 14.

Besides, the Passover lamb was eaten together with unleavened bread (Ex 12:8) and, thus, on the first day of unleavened bread – Nisan 15. If Ellen White says that Christ should be sacrificed on the day the Passover was eaten, she is necessarily saying that Christ should be sacrificed on a Nisan 15. If she wished to refer to Nisan 14, she would have said that Christ should be sacrificed on the day the Passover lamb was sacrificed. In fact, this is the parallelism most used by theologians in relation to Passover – that Christ died on the same day and at the same hour the Passover lamb was sacrificed; but this is not what Ellen White says.

I'll also be leaving on vacation today and will only be able to visit the forum occasionally.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/20/05 03:55 AM

Is there any chance of getting some input from Juarez Rosangela?

Your statement that no astonomer would make Friday the Passover is misleading. It assumes that the astronomer would use the rabbinical or Karaite reckoning. I would be surprized though if all astronomers and even Juarez did not agree that the AB calendar allows Friday to be Nisan 14 in 31AD as I explained above.

Regarding Ellen White's statements, please have a second look at what I wrote above, especially regarding her statement that the sheaf was offered on the second day. Regarding the Passover being eaten with unleavened bread, I would recommend Alfred Edersheim on when leaven was customarily removed from Jewish homes - by noon of the 14th if I remember correctly. But for scripture on the point, I've cited the provision above regarding the Passover meal - that it was begun on the 14th. Eating unleavened bread with it did not over-rule the requirement that Passover was kept before sundown.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/20/05 04:18 AM

Rosangela, I would be open to interpreting Ellen White's statement that the Christ was slain the day the Passover was eaten in the way that you suggest, but it would need to be clear from the context that this is what she meant. You will need to present solid evidence to convince me though because her other statements that I've reviewed so far show that her intention is the same as other theologians. The majority, as you point out, believe that Christ was slain on the day the Passover was offered. The evidence supports that interpretation much better than the idea that Thursday was the Passover.

Look, if it wasn’t for the fact that we have a problem here with the Karaite reckoning, do you honestly think any Adventist would not be on board with the rest of Christianity that Christ was slain as the Passover lamb on the Passover. The main reason we haven’t accepted that reasonable conclusion is that we have a problem with the impossibility of having a Friday Passover under the Karaite reckoning. We need to be honest with ourselves here.

That Christ could celebrate the Passover one day early with his disciples makes sense too. If Christ is Lord of the Sabbath He is Lord of the Passover as well. He can celebrate it with His disciples early so that He can offer Himself on the actual day. And there is a scriptural precedent. Those who could not keep the Passover anciently on the first date could keep it one month later. The same is not true regarding the Day of Atonement or the other Feasts.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/20/05 02:34 PM

Before touching on another point I should add a comment on the appropriateness of Christ celebrating the Passover one day early: We should bear in mind that the final Passover of Christ with the disciples was not merely the Passover, but was the first Lord’s Supper. Christ was taking the symbol of the Passover and replacing it in the church with a new institution that was to be celebrated ‘as often as ye eat this bread and drink this cup’. One could say that it is actually more in harmony with the Spirit of the Lord’s Supper that the first celebration of it should not be at the Passover to reinforce the point that, unlike the Passover, it could be celebrated any day.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/20/05 02:36 PM

Rosangela, going back to the statement by Ellen White that Christ was slain on the day the Passover was eaten, that statement is taken almost word for word from John 18:28:

quote:
18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the Passover.
Your interpretation not only makes Ellen White contradict herself, something you call ‘tension’, it also contradicts the statement of John. If the Passover meal was eaten Thursday in this year by all Jews, John’s statement here is false. Instead it should read that the Jews did not want to defile themselves so they could participate in the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

What could be more clear? That Christ was crucified on the Passover is also confirmed a few verses afterwards in the same chapter and also in Luke:

quote:
18:39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews? John

23:17 (For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.) Luke

Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/21/05 04:42 AM

To summarize the last several posts, most Adventists theologians support the idea that the true Passover was Thursday in 31 AD, and that Christ was crucified one day later on Friday. Most who have studied the issue apparently feel that Ellen White makes one or more statements that do not harmonize with a Thursday Passover at the crucifixion, but they believe, due to the Karaite method of reckoning that she must be mistaken. As Rosangela has said, most other, non-Adventist theologians who are not concerned with Karaite reckoning believe that Christ was slain as the Passover lamb on the Passover. And it seems clear to me that Ellen White also believed this.

This is an example in my view of theologians reaching out the hand to steady the ark. And to be honest, I’ve supported the Karaite reckoning until recently myself. I think we could all be more careful at reading more into the text than is there in order to support our positions. As long as we ignore the other calendrical statements of scripture the world will take note of our selectivity and it will cost us in terms of credibility. We have enough objections to meet on issues like the Sabbath and the non-immortality of the soul. Before striking out on our own where we have no scriptural mandate to do so, we should have a careful, unbiased look at scripture on this. So my appeal to our theologians is, please, for the sake of the truth, reconsider our position that Christ was not slain at the Passover. Adventists of all people should be pointing to the validity of the types, to Christ as our Passover, and in the Spirit of John the Baptist, saying, "Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world."
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/29/05 02:16 AM

There is one more text that I did not quote above in the Gospel of John that supports the common belief among most Christians – our Adventist theologians excepted – that Christ was slain at the time the Passover sacrifices were offered:
quote:

And it was the preparation of the Passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! John 19:14

Again, what could be plainer? What day answers to the phrase ‘preparation of the Passover’ other than Nisan 14? The conclusion must be that Nisan 14 was a Friday, the day of the crucifixion of our Lord.

Note: There were many Passover sacrifices offered on the day of the Passover – enough to feed all the families that celebrated it. All of these were required to be presented and ceremonially slain at the temple by the priests. In addition there were also corporate offerings that were required that day.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/30/05 03:23 PM

In reading some of the material produced by the pioneers of Adventism that is cited in the Daniel and Revelation Committee’s ‘Doctrine of the Sanctuary’ I found that the general belief among them was the same as among most Christians – that Christ was crucified as our Passover on the day of the Passover. One of the texts relied on by Elder Snow in support of this position is I Cor 5:7.

It seems clear that a change in our position on this point is the result of our attempts to reconcile the Karaite calendar with the gospel accounts and bend the gospels to fit the Karaite reckoning rather than looking for a reckoning that fits the gospel accounts.
quote:

5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.

Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/30/05 03:28 PM

Before the disappointment and afterwards, the pioneers unanimously held that Oct 22, 1844 was the correct date because they noted that the spring feasts had been fulfilled on the exact days, and therefore they held that fall feasts would be fulfilled in the same way. As a result of this reasoning, it was central to their belief that Christ fulfilled the Passover type on the day of the Passover.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/02/06 09:15 PM

Mark,

I’m writing from a cyber café, so I'll have to be brief.

There are only two methods that can be used to determine the beginning of a lunar month – either to calculate the day of conjunction or to use the observational method (which allows the difference of one day), and neither would give that Friday in 31 AD as the 14th day of the lunar month. For that Friday to be considered the 14th day of the month, the preceding month would have had 31 days, something inconceivable for a lunar calendar.

As to the tension I mentioned, it also exists between John and the synoptics:

“Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, ‘Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?’” (Matt. 26:17).

“Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, ‘Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?’” (Mark 14:12)

“Then came the Day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover must be killed. And He sent Peter and John, saying, ‘Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat’” (Luke 22:7,8).
quote:
That Christ could celebrate the Passover one day early with his disciples makes sense too. If Christ is Lord of the Sabbath He is Lord of the Passover as well.
I don’t think this is a good argument. Since He is the Lord of the Passover, He could transgress the Passover law; then our opponents are right when they say that since He was the Lord of the Sabbath, He could transgress the Sabbath, and thus abolish it.

The Saviour had been obedient to the Jewish law, and observed all its divinely appointed ordinances. He had just identified himself with the paschal lamb as its great antitype, by connecting the Lord's supper with the passover. What a bitter mockery then was the ceremony about to be observed by the priestly persecutors of Jesus!” {3SP 128.1}

As to John 18:28, both the Talmud and the Bible (2 Chron. 30:22) confirm that they used the expression “eat the Passover” referring to the seven days of the feast.

As to the Passover lamb being an antitype of Christ, it is obvious that not only Ellen White but all theologians believe this. But for Christ to fulfill the sacrificial aspect of the Passover, or of the Day of Atonement, it was not necessary that He died on a Nisan 14, or on a Tishri 10.

These and all other objections you raised (or not) are analyzed in chapter three (III) of Juarez’s book. Take a look at it.

I’ve sent this page to Juarez, and I hope he sees it, if he is not traveling.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/04/06 04:00 AM

Good points Rosangela, especially the texts from the synoptics. The quote by Ellen White is one I hadn't seen. Very good. I'll look them over.

I may eventually agree with you yet on the Passover sequence but we will likely have to disagree for now on Karaite reckoning as scriptural. I'd appreciate it if you could summarize a response to the points I've presented on that issue.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/04/06 04:36 AM

Actually Rosangela, if you could hold off on answering or summarizing on the Karaite issue, there is more I'd like to post before summarizing things. It would be better to have looked at the Passover sequence in more detail first I think and there may be other issues that surface related to Karaite reckoning as we do that.

For example, the one day variation in the AB calendar does not mean that the prior month had 31 days. It means it also has about a one day variance. The variance is zero in the middle of the eight year cycle but at the beginning of the eight year cycle and at the end it approaches one day until the two adjustment days are inserted at the end of the cycle. In other words at the beginning of the cycle the new moon is close to the conjuntion, about a day before the observed new moon, and at the end it is about a day after the observed new moon.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/07/06 08:23 PM

Rosangela, Alfred Edershsheim holds your view on the crucifixion sequence. I looked again at his reasons in his book, The Temple – Its Ministry and Services, and I followed your suggestion and also read chapter 3 of Juarez’ book and I see I may have been too quick to form a contrary opinion. At this point I am still undecided but in reviewing the statements from Ellen White, I have to agree now that apart from her statements that the sheaf was waved on the second day of Unleavened bread, overall, she strongly favours the Lord’s Supper as being Nisan 14, and not the crucifixion.

As Juarez notes in his book, this conflicts with our position in the SDA Bible Commentary. The commentary holds the crucifixion Friday as Nisan 14, and it also conflicts with Ellen White’s two statements mentioned above. I am undecided, but have to say Juarez makes a good case. I am looking into the timing of the sheaf or omer offering.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/08/06 12:26 AM

Roseangela, in Juarez’ book I noticed that he quotes one of a growing number of scholars who think that Leviticus may be based on the Jubilee Calendar. I am pointing that out because although it seems to me that the Jubilee Calendar is a corruption of the AB Calendar it is closer to the AB Calendar on some points than the Karaite or Rabbinical Calendars. So I agree with the overall trend in the scholarly community to look again at whether some other calendar was not in use in Isreal other than the Rabbinical or Karaite, but I am quite sure it was not the Jubilee Calendar.

quote:
Furthermore, if one accepts that Leviticus is based on the Jubilees Calendar, it would seem more likely that the first sheaf was offered on Sunday (the day after the sabbath) than on Thursday (second day of the feast).

From Page 80 of Juarex’ book quoting G. J. Wenham, The New International Commentary on the Old Testament: The Book ofLeviticus (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1992), p. 304.

On the same point, Juarez also cites several sources that show the Sadducees of Christ's day did not follow the Rabbinical reckoning regarding the wave sheaf. That would be consistent not only with Karaite reckoning but also could be consistent with the reckoning of the AB Calendar.

If you look at the material from Qumran, you’ll see that in this community the Feast of Unleavened bread was always celebrated on fixed dates, from Sabbath to Sabbath. Perhaps the AB Calendar, while still allowing for the use of a unique lunar calendar to determine some aspects of the feasts it, like the Jubilee Calendar, also used fixed dates for determining the celebration of Unleavened Bread. I am still looking into it.

In any event, I am not ready yet to conclude as you and Juarez have done that Ellen White is simply wrong regarding her two statements about the wave sheaf. I’ve worked with her material long enough to know that, while she is not infallible, she is rarely mistaken on issues like this. I’d encourage you both to take a second look at your position on this point and to share what you find. We need to explore all the options.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/10/06 02:44 PM

Roseangela, there is one other quote from Ellen White that does not harmonize with a late April Passover in 31 AD, which is where we place it now in the Bible commentary. She says somewhere (it is quoted earlier in the thread) that the Passover was celebrated in late March or early April. The date we put the passover at is too late to fall within that range of dates.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/13/06 03:29 PM

Mark,

The only possible Friday connected to Passover in 31 AD is that of April 27 (Julian date). Not accepting that date is disqualifying the year 31 AD as the year for Christ's death.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/17/06 02:13 AM

When you say a 'Friday Passover' you're referring to Thurday afternoon and evening which is the beginning of Friday on the Hebrew calendar right?

What if a different calendar was in use in 31AD that allowed the date of the Passover to be a few days different from the modern Jewish and Karaite calendars? (I posted some of the evidence for this a while back on the thread - not only the Qumran material, but also some information by Eusebius I think, that the Jews of Christ's day used an eight year cycle as found in the AB calendar, not the modern 19 year cycle.) If we use a different calendar the Passover could still be in 31AD but about one month earlier right?

If we put it one month earlier, it will harmonize with the 'late March to early April' statement by Ellen White.

One of the strengths of the AB calendar is it places more emphasis on creating a practical calendar than on alligning the feasts precisely with the astronomical positions of the sun and moon.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/18/06 04:43 AM

Rosangela, I was interested in the Karaite arguments published by Juarez in chapter 3 at page 81 of his book in favour of their method of calculating Penticost.

quote:
We are commanded in Lev 23,16 “Until the morrow after the seventh Sabbath shall you count fifty days”. While the first day of Hag HaMatzot [Unleavened Bread]could theoretically be called a Sabbath, there is no way the 49th day of the Omer could be called a Sabbath, since (according to the Rabbanite theory) this day is neither a holiday nor a Sabbath. This being so, in the Rabbanite reckoning the 50th day of the Omer (=Shavuot) would NOT be on “the morrow after the seventh Sabbath” as commanded in Lev 23,16. Instead it would be on the morrow after the 7th Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday or whatever day it happened to fall out after (see chart). The only way for the 49th day of the Omer to be a Sabbath, thereby making the 50th day “the morrow after the Sabbath” as commanded in Lev 23,16, is if the 1st day of the Omer is on a Sunday.
I agree with this point. But I would say the Karaites do not take their logic far enough. If the omer or sheaf is always waived Sunday of Passover week, and I agree that it is, then scripture seems to also support the idea that the first day of Passover week is not only a day of rest, but is also a seventh-day Sabbath. Have another look at Lev 23 and see if that is not a reasonable and likely meaning. That would mean that it was not mere co-incidence that the Sabbath of the crucifixion was a ‘high day’: It was probably that way year after year.

That would be consistent with a parallel passage in Daniel 9 regarding the weeks of years. Historically, these can be shown to be synchronized with the true sabbatical years so that for example, the last of the 490 years, 34AD, is known to be a sabbatical year. If the seven weeks of this prophecy and the other 63 weeks fit this pattern, the same could be true of the seven literal weeks of penticost and the 'starter week' of Unleavened Bread.

Let’s explore that possibility. This is one of the main advantages of that calendar – most, possibly all, of the holy days fall not only on the same numerical day of the month, they also fall on the same week day, year after year.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/19/06 01:51 AM

In my last post I said that the Karaite position is correct that Penticost must always be a Sunday according to scripture and then noted that this position is in agreement with the AB calendar. I should also point out that if the AB calendar is interpreted so that 30 day months are used to calculate the feast days, (and we have the record of the flood which confirms a 30 day month in Genesis) it would also harmonize with Ellen White’s statements that the wave sheaf was customarily presented on the second day of Unleavened Bread.

Think about this: Ellen White says that the sheaf was presented on the second day of the feast. The only way this statement can harmonize with Lev 23 where it says the 49th day of the omer or sheaf is a Sabbath is if the first day of the feast is also a Sabbath. So we have another evidence that the AB calendar or a calendar like it was used by the ancient Jews from the time of Moses.

Isn’t this a logical conclusion if we accept Ellen White’s statement regarding waving the sheaf the second day and the statement in Lev 23:16? In other words, the only way Ellen White’s statement can be harmonized with Lev 23:16 is for the first day of the feast to always be a seventh-day Sabbath.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/19/06 02:01 AM

I did a calculation and found that what I said in my last post works for the feasts of the seventh month as well. In that series of feasts, using the 30 day month of the AB calendar, the first, 15th and 22nd days are all seventh-day Sabbaths every year.
quote:

23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first [day] of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. . . .
23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day [shall be] a sabbath, and on the eighth day [shall be] a sabbath. Lev 23

Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/20/06 03:10 AM

I need to clarify/correct one or two things. The seven-day Feast of Unleavened Bread, if it always began on Sabbath, then it ended on a Friday rather than a Sabbath. The Feast of Booths in the fall though would begin and end on a Sabbath because it spans eight days.

Let’s say for now that is was possible that Feast of Unleavened Bread (Passover week) was celebrated on fixed dates as in the Qumran calendar (I said earlier in the thread that I did not think it was, but I’m reconsidering it here) where does that leave us with the Passover sequence at the crucifixion of Christ? Does it pose more problems than it solves? Maybe, but maybe not.

What if the three synoptic gospels and John are both right – that the Passover meal could have been eaten both on Thursday evening and Friday evening? The AB calendar might allow for this because it has both a lunar and a solar month and therefore has two possible Passover dates. Physically it would have been difficult for all the Passover sacrifices to be offered at the temple for the thousands of families that came to celebrate it on a single day.

Another possibility: What if the Passover meal was calculated using the lunar calendar but the two weekly celebrations were fixed dates. Then we could have a one day gap between Passover and Unleavened Bread. This suggestion has some indirect support in the description of Ezekiel’s temple starting at Ezekiel 40. In that description all of the five single-day feasts – the Passover, Pentecost, Trumpets, Day of Atonement and the single day, unnamed feast at the end of the Feast of Booths - are removed. Only the two week long feasts remain. However the offerings for the new month in Ezekiel’s temple have been ‘upgraded’ in their ritual – and the sin offering is removed!

I've mentioned before that I think Ezekiel's temple is a prophetic illustration of the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary just before His return at the time of the latter rain. So what I'm saying in the paragraph above is that in the literal temple in Christ's day, the calendar appears to be based on both the lunar and solar months, but the changes in Ezekiel's temple may suggest that aside from the monthly offerings, which may be lunar or solar, the 30 day months are likely used for the two week long feasts and are likely fixed dates.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/23/06 03:18 PM

Rosangela, I’d like to present another argument or two to you in support of the idea that the 15th of the first Jewish month was always a seventh-day Sabbath.

The Qumran calendar is similar to the solar part of the AB calendar, but the Qumran always started the year on a Wednesday. This community appears to be a sect, with their own calendar, but what if the rest of Judaism had a similar calendar based on the AB and started their year on a Sabbath rather than a Wednesday? The result would be that the 15 of the first month would always be a weekly Sabbath and the sheaf would always be waived on a Sunday. In addition, in the seventh month the Feast of Trumpets and the beginning and ending of the Feast of Tabernacles would also always be on Sabbaths. So there is a symmetry between the Biblical feasts and the AB calendar – a good fit.

Now, if we look at Lev 23, and note that it says the sheaf is waved ‘on the morrow after the Sabbath’, we have a plausible explanation for what we had thought was an ambiguity in the text. That is, if the Sabbath is always the 15th, the phrase ‘morrow after the Sabbath’ can only be interpreted in one way because the first day of the Feast and the weekly Sabbath are always the same day. As a result those reading this in Moses day would have had no doubt what it meant.

Those travelling to the feasts would have also benefited from the first day always being a Sabbath. For those further away, it would mean they would have a full six days to make the journey and, if they lived within six days of the Holy City, they would not have to find lodging to rest over the Sabbath.

For me, the main remaining question in this scenario is, where does the lunar part of the AB calendar fit in. Even in the Quman community the lunar cycle was important. Perhaps only for the celebration of the New Moons?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/23/06 03:56 PM

The some of the other remaining questions I am working on are: Explaining the Thursday Passover in the Synoptics and reconciling it to this new possible calendar in 31AD, and; reconciling the AB calendar to Oct 22, 1844.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/23/06 04:12 PM

Regarding the Thursday Passover at the crucifixion and the possiblility of a one or two day gap between the celebration of the Passover and the first day of Unleavened bread, I suggested above a few posts back that it would have been hard for the Jews to sacrifice all of the thousands of Passover animals on the same day.

In Exodus 12:3 the law provides that the Passover lamb was to be selected and set aside on the 10th day and kept until the 14th. One of the reasons for this provision may have been to allow for a staggered slaughter of the Passover animals at the temple when the numbers grew too large to accomodate the crowds on a single day. When Solomon's temple was dedicated, just such a problem occurred. Solomon solved the problem in this case by dedicating a larger area for slaughter so that the sacrifice could be made on a single day. But in the case of the Passover, because of certain aspects of the ritual such as the application of the blood to the horns of the Altar, this may not have been permissible.

quote:
8:64 The same day did the king hallow the middle of the court that [was] before the house of the LORD for there he offered burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and the fat of the peace offerings: because the brazen altar that [was] before the LORD [was] too little to receive the burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and the fat of the peace offerings. 1 Kings
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/24/06 04:59 AM

Rosangela, the parallel passage in II Chronicles to I Kings 8:64 is also interesting:

quote:

7:7 Moreover Solomon hallowed the middle of the court that [was] before the house of the LORD: for there he offered burnt offerings, and the fat of the peace offerings, because the brazen altar which Solomon had made was not able to receive the burnt offerings, and the meat offerings, and the fat.
7:8 Also at the same time Solomon kept the feast seven days, and all Israel with him, a very great congregation, from the entering in of Hamath unto the river of Egypt.
7:9 And in the eighth day they made a solemn assembly: for they kept the dedication of the altar seven days, and the feast seven days.
7:10 And on the three and twentieth day of the seventh month he sent the people away into their tents, glad and merry in heart for the goodness that the LORD had showed unto David, and to Solomon, and to Israel his people.

When the temple was dedicated Solomon, under the inspired instruction left by King David that has been lost, dedicated the alter for a week. This is similar to the dedication of the alter in the Mosaic temple and Ezekiel’s temple. It would be good to study the parallels, and I may come back to this, but for now, notice where the week appears to fit in: In verse 10 above the people leave on the 23rd of the month. In Lev 23 we see that the final assembly at the end of the Feast of Tabernacles is the 22nd. So the week of dedication for the alter appears to be the week before, the 8th to the 14th. If the AB calendar was used, that would mean the dedication went from Sabbath to the following Friday. This is the same pattern in the 70 week prophecy – a week of years in that prophecy runs from the Sabbatical year as year one and runs until the Friday year. I think I learned this from an historian quoting Tertillian who tells us that the year before the destruction of Jerusalem, 69 AD was a Sabbatical. That would confirm that the 490 years began and ended on a Sabbatical – 457 BC and 34 AD respectively.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/24/06 03:58 PM

The main aspect of the AB calendar I’ve not been able to harmonize so far is the Oct 22, 1844 date. The numerical date can probably be reconciled, but the week day is incompatable with the solar part of the AB calendar. Jaurez shows in his book that in 1844, the Day of Atonement was a Wednesday, Jerusalem time. In the AB calendar, if the solar part is used, the Day of Atonement is always a Monday if the year starts on a Sabbath. If the year started on Monday then the Day of Atonement would always be a Wednesday but that would undo the 'fit' of the week long Feasts.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/26/06 04:46 AM

One of the interesting things about the dedication of the altar in Solomon’s temple is that it appears to span the week in which the Day of Atonement fell. If you read both passages in Kings and Chronicles that describe the event, it seems likely that the 14 days of feasts were consecutive and if that is so, the Day of Atonement would have fallen about in the middle of the week while the altar was being dedicated. There is a problem with that however: It would not be lawful for the priests to perform the Day of Atonement ritual at the altar because the altar could not be used to make the Atonement until it was sanctified for the full seven days. Yet the Day of Atonement had to have been kept and it likely was kept after the week of dedication. So this appears to be another example of where a single day feast does not appear to align with Karaite or Rabbinical reckoning, similar to the Passover Thursday at the crucifixion. Again, the solution seems to be that the week long feasts and certain other feasts are calculated using Solar months, while the other feast days may be based on the lunar month.

Going back to the counting of the seven week cycle, I mentioned earlier that the 490 years of Daniel 9 start on a Sabbatical year and follow the same pattern as in the literal weeks of Pentecost. Pentecost came on the day following the seventh Sabbath. The same pattern can be seen in the Jubilee cycle: The year after the seventh Sabbatical, year 50, was the Jubilee. The Jubilee was unique in that it was a special Sabbatical, and also year 1 of the next Jubilee cycle: both the last year of the old cycle, and the first year of the new.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/27/06 03:22 AM

A lot of what I've posted on this thread has been my own thinking out loud rather than any firm conclusions. I've taken that approach because this is a discussion forum.

It may seem odd to some of you that I'd devote this much attention to the topic, but I'm going on past experience in studying Ezekiel's temple. After I'd invested a lot of effort looking into that topic there were times when I wondered if it was really worth it, but looking back now, I don't have any doubt that making a systematic comparison between the Mosaic tabernacle, Solomon's temple and Ezekiel's temple was well worth the effort. There is still so much more to learn on that topic - areas that I know I do not understand well - but I have a better overview: I'm better equipped now to look at specific aspects.

I still have my doubts at times that this topic merits all the attention I've been giving it, but I usually come back with a positive answer. If we understand the sacred calendar better, we will understand prophecy better, including last day events. We will never have all the details mapped out for us because God will test our faith, but if we understand prophecy better and the divine calendar, then, like the early Adventists on Oct 22 1844 we will be in a better position to understand why things unfold they way they do.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/27/06 04:16 AM

In Leviticus 8 and 9 there is a description of the dedication of the altar and priesthood. The dedication of the priesthood is more prominent but there are indications in the text that the altar was dedicated at the same time. And during the dedication of these, on the eighth day, the Priests make an atonement for themselves and the people that is similar to that made on the Day of Atonement, but also has some important differences. So above when I suggest that the Day of Atonement must have been kept later, I am probably mistaken. In this case, the atonement was more likely the eighth day of the dedication. That would harmonize better with the types because the sanctuary was brand new that Solomon had built and would not have required the Day of Atonement cleansing – no sin had been transferred to it yet by the daily ministry.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/28/06 04:10 PM

Rosangela, I did some analysing of the texts the Karaites use to say that the moon is the only scriptural timekeeper. As you might have guessed, my conclusions are different from theirs. [Smile]

Regarding the Hebrew words for month or months, the main word used (about 261 times out of 269 times in the OT) implies a connection to the new moon. Hebrew scholars tell us that the word for month is related to a root meaning ‘new’. The interesting thing however is that the same word for month is used in Genesis at the description of the flood where the month has 30 days. This is our first clue that the Hebrew word for month can be applied to non-lunar months in the bible.

The other Hebrew word for month is much less common in scripture. It occurs about 8 out of 269 times in the OT. It is not related to the word ‘new’ but is related to the word ‘moon’, and I was interested to learn that it is used in three ways: Three out of the eight times it is used to name a particular month. (The main Hebrew word above is used in the same way but more often.) Three times it is used in the same way as the other Hebrew word, for example, to say that an event took place over the span of one month. But two of the times it is used to describe a ‘full month’, apparently meaning 30 days. See Deuteronomy 21:13 and 2 Kings 15:13. The main Hebrew word is never used in this way.

The conclusions I’ve come to are that 1) both Hebrew words for month can be used to indicate a month of 30 days, 2) that it is not clear if the less common word can include a solar month, probably not, but that 3) the more common word can refer to either a lunar or solar month.

That the more common Hebrew word can refer to either a lunar or solar month tends to be confirmed when this word is translated ‘moon’ rather than ‘month’ in scripture. In every case where the same word is rendered ‘moon(s)’, 19 times, it is always preceded by the word ‘new’. This suggests that the word ‘new’ in front of the common word for ‘month’ or ‘moon’, is needed to distinguish or clarify that a lunar month is intended rather than a solar month.

The phrase ‘new moons’ occurs 11 times in OT scripture and each time it is used to describe the sacred holidays. Most, if not all of the times this phrase appears, the phrase ‘set feasts’ or ‘appointed feasts’ appears with it. The Karaites teach that the terms ‘set’ and ‘appointed’ mean ‘set by the moon’ and cite Psalm 104:19 as proof of this.

However, regarding Psalm 104:19, “He appointed the moon for seasons, the sun knows its going down”, NKJV, the text implies that both the sun and the moon have a timekeeping role, and this is confirmed in the creation account in Genesis and in other texts. The phrases ‘set feasts’ and ‘appointed feasts’ are usually juxtaposed to the phrase ‘new moons’. An alternative, and in my view, more likely reason for distinguishing the ‘new moons’ from the ‘set feasts’ is that while the timing of the new moon varies from year to year, the timing of the feasts using the solar calendar was ‘set’ or ‘fixed’ at the same time every year. This tends to be supported by the fact that the 11 texts referring to all of the sacred holidays consistently break them down into three classes – the Sabbaths, determined by the weekly cycle, the New Moon feasts, determined by the lunar cycle, and the ‘set feasts’, determined by the solar cycle.

This scenario would explain why the Qumran community was concerned with both the lunar and solar cycles: the former was used to celebrate the New Moon feasts, while the latter was used to celebrate the ‘set feasts’. The New Month feasts in the solar calendar of Quman are conspicuous by their absence. Being the highly devout community that the people of Qumran were, it is inconceivable that they did not follow the Mosaic law requiring the New Months to be celebrated. The most likely reason that comes to mind for the absence of the New Month feasts from their solar calendar is that these holy days were logged on their lunar calendar, possibly using the ‘mishmarot’ cross-referencing system referred to earlier in this thread. I’ll look into that more.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/28/06 05:50 PM

At page 146 (electronic version) of ‘Calendars in the Dead Sea Scrolls’, Prof VanderKam makes the following statement about the work of another scholar in the late 1959’s, J.T. Milik’s ‘Ten Years of Discovery in the Judean Wilderness. In Milik’s work, VanderKam states:

quote:
He [Milik] adds the somewhat unexpected detail that some Qumran calendrical works correlated three entities: the 364-day system, the twenty four priestly mishmarot, and a lunar calendar. Emphasis in the original.
Further on, at page 150 (electronic version), VanderKam quotes Milik directly:

quote:
. . .In one of the synchonistic tables, [found at Qumran] in addition to the correspondence between the day of their solar calendar and the first day of their lunar month, they also note the day of their solar month on which the new moon falls . . .
What Milik is saying is that not only did the Qumran religious leaders cross-reference the first day of the lunar month with the corresponding date on their solar calendar, they also cross-referenced the new moon conjunction with their solar date. Why? The former cross-referencing appears to be for the reason I suggested above – so that they could celebrated the Biblical new moon feasts. The likely reason for cross-referencing the conjunctions appears to be to assist in their intercalation calculations that kept the lunar part of their calendar accurate in the same way that noting the times of the equinox and solstice would be necessary to keep the solar half of their calendar accurate.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/28/06 08:18 PM

I indicated above that although applying the AB solar calendar to the spring feast of 31AD harmonizes the requirement in Lev 23 that the sheaf must be waved on the ‘morrow after the Sabbath’ with Ellen White’s statement that the sheaf was waved on the second day of Passover week, applying the AB solar calendar to the Day of Atonement in 1844 does not seem to work. But today as I was reading VanderKam’s book, at page 158 (e-version) I came across this statement from a manuscript found in cave 11 of Qumran called the Psalms scroll. It says:
quote:
And he [King David] wrote psalms: three thousand six hundred; and songs to be sung before the altar over the perpetual offering for every day of the year: three hundred and sixty four; and songs to be sung for the Sabbath offering: fifty two songs; and for the offering at the beginning of the month, and for all the days of the festivals and for the Day of Atonement: thirty songs.
At Qumran there are two kinds of manuscripts – those that accurately transcribe the canonical books of scripture and extra-canonical literature. The above manuscript is extra-canonical, so we have to be very careful before accepting it as accurate, but it is a fascinating passage for several reasons: It not only states that King David followed a 364 day calendar, it also categorizes the new month ritual separately from the other holidays in the same way that the scripture I cited above distinguishes the ‘new moons’ from the 'set feasts’.

Interestingly, the breakdown is more specific here than in scripture. Whereas in the 11 passages I cited above we only have the distinction between ‘new moons’ and ‘set feasts’, here we have 30 songs/days to work with - twelve songs for the monthly offerings and one for the Day of Atonement which leaves 17 for the feast days. This number matches Lev 23 where we see that we have the 1 day for Passover, + 7 days of Unleavened Bread + 1 for Pentecost + 8 for the Feast of Tabernacles = 17. What struck me about the passage though is that the Day of Atonement is not classed with the other 17 days, suggesting that unlike the rest of the ‘fixed’ or ‘set’ feast days that use the solar half of the AB calendar, the Day of Atonement was, like the New Moon feasts, linked to the lunar month. If that is the case, that would solve the problem of reconciling Oct 22 to the AB calendar. I’ll look at this more closely as well. I’ll just sign off here by saying that my initial feeling is that there is a good ‘fit’ with the types because the moon is a symbol of regeneration as occurs on the Day of Atonement, the Day of Atonement is announced on the lunar new moon at the Feast of Trumpets and for other reasons.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/29/06 02:25 AM

Rosangela, I think I have come across a breakthrough that confirms the 364 day year directly from Genesis. Earlier in the thread I pointed out, as others have, that the pre-flood calendar used 30 day months. It does this by giving the time-line for a consecutive 150 day/5 month period. But today, for the first time, I noticed that there is not one, but two 150 day periods. The first period is in verse 7:24 which is the time that the rain began to fall until the water reached its high point. We’re told that this period ran from the 17th of the second month to the 17th of the seventh in verse 8:4.

The second period is in verse 8:3 which tells us that it took another 150 day period for the water to recede. This period is defined in verses 5 and 14 as running from the 1st of the 10th month to the 27th of the second month of the following year.
quote:

….
8:3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated. . . .
8:5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth [month], on the first [day] of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
8:14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.

Here is how the numbers add up: Three months of 30 days remain in the year from the 1st of the tenth month to the 30th of the twelfth month = 90 days. The AB calendar then adds the four intercalated days: 90 + 4 = 94. Then add from the first day of the first month of the new year to 26th* of the second month: 30 +26 = 56. Add the two together and we have 56 + 94 = 150. In other words if our starting and ending days for this period are correct, and the months have 30 days, the year must have 364 days.

*Why we must end the receding period on the 26th of the second month rather than the 27th is that verse 14 says the ground was dry on the 27, meaning that the water had stopped receding by the end of the 26th.

I’ll see if I can find two or more reputable, learned Hebrew authorities to see if my interpretation of the text is reasonable. As the scripture says, the truth should be established on the testimony of two reliable witnesses. In the mean time, please share this with Juarez. I’d really like his input at this point, if at all possible, and, I’d like yours.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/02/06 02:59 AM

Since starting this thread, my understanding of the AB calendar is basically the same but my view of how it is intercalated and how the Hebrew feasts fit into it, including the crucifixion and October 22, 1844, has evolved somewhat so I’ll give a brief summary of what my current positions are:

The AB calendar combines three years, the lunar year of 354 days, the solar year of 364 days and the ‘base’ year of 360 days. It provides for an eight-year cycle between intercalations and, during the 8 year cycle, requires an extra lunar month of 30 days to be added to the lunar year at the end of years 3, 5 and 8.

The lunar intercalation system I suggest at the end of year eight is a likely candidate for how the lunar aspect was kept in sync with the observed new moon. However I’ve modified my suggestion on the solar intercalation; rather than adding a third and fourth week on certain eight year cycles, the more likely method would have been to intercalate no more than two weeks on any given year, so that the new year begins within a week of the equinox.

Regarding the crucifixion, this calendar allows it in a more likely, that is, earlier, part of the spring than what we are forced to accept if Karaite reckoning is used – April 27. And, it would agree with Ellen White’s two statements that, to date, no Adventist scholars have been able to reconcile with Karaite reckoning. The statements I’m referring to are 1) that the “time of the Passover corresponded to the close of March or the beginning of April” DA. 76 and 2) that the sheaf was waved on the second day of Unleavened Bread.

These two statements have proven to be incompatible with the Karaite calendar, but Adventists in general still follow that reckoning and some SDA theologians are prepared to say Ellen White is wrong on the above statements. Who are we going to go with? If the evidence did not support her, I would say ‘maybe she is wrong on these points’, but the evidence that we lacked before is now available from Scripture and Qumran and other sources to confirm and harmonize her statements. True, it means discarding Karaite reckoning, but it also means adopting a calendar that harmonizes with Scripture.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/02/06 03:32 AM

I've stated the main evidence against Karaite reckoning: the Flood narrative and the account of the Exodus. Both events, written by Moses, show that there was a calendar in existence both before the flood and afterwards. To think that a man of Moses intellect would not see the potential for confusion in basing the flood account on one calendar and basing the history of the exodus and the sacrificial system on another is not easy to entertain. It is much more probable that Moses knew this and made no qualifying statement regarding the flood account because the calendar at the flood and the calendar at the exodus were the same.

But, Rosangela, let me ask you and Juarez something: You have done research on the supposed inconsistency or tension in her statement on the wave sheaf being presented on the second day. You found that an Adventist conference leader had written to her and pointed out the supposed tension and you quoted her reply through her secretary. Ellen White sent back the message that she was instructed to write certain things, and that her work could not possibly include interpreting the large volume of her writing. Her advice to the man who asked her to explain the passage was that he should study it out to find the underlying harmony.

I’ve asked you and Juarez to have a second look and I have not heard from you, but now I am pointing out that Ellen White advises you and Juarez to do the same, but not only that, she gives this advice in the context of this very statement that you claim is wrong. I hope you will follow her counsel. Providence has its reasons for her advising this pastor to restudy this very issue.

From page 77 of Juarez’ book
quote:

[Elder R.] Munson wrote to Ellen White about this seeming contradiction, and her secretary
gave the following reply:

When these questions come before Sister White, she often says that the Lord hasgiven her the work of writing what she has written, but not of trying to explain every seemingly difficult passage. If she were to take up the burden of harmonizing seemingly contradictory passages, she would not have time to do her regularly appointedwork of writing out the words of instruction and admonition that she does write for the Church. She therefore appeals to her brethren to search the Scriptures, and to compare her writings with the Scriptures, and with other portions of her own writings,and thus seek to discover, if possible, the harmony that exists. You will readily understand the reason why she could not enter into all the queries that come to her; and your good judgment will tell you that it is well for us who study her writings, to seek to understand them in the light of other portions of her writings, and by the aidof the daily study of the Scriptures.

Letter of C. C. Crisler, secretary of Ellen G. White, to Elder R. W. Munson of the Australasian Union Conference, November 27, 1908.

Notice in the above quote – the ‘harmony that exists’. This suggests that she is quite confident of her statement regarding the wave sheaf.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/03/06 02:28 AM

The AB calendar does not resolve the issue of Thursday vs. a Friday Passover. I’m retracting my suggestion above that the Passover could have been set by the lunar part of the AB calendar, because it seems clear that the Passover is one of the ‘set feasts’ that is embedded in the solar rather than lunar months of the calendar. The other suggestion I made seems to be the more likely one – that under some authority such as the lost instructions by King David for the temple ritual, or the precedent set by Solomon at the dedication of the temple, the Passover lambs, because of their large numbers, could be offered and eaten on the day before the Passover. In the Mosaic law, this sacrifice, unlike certain other offerings, could only be eaten on the day it was offered at the temple, which meant that if the Passover lamb was slain one day earlier, it also had to be eaten on that day. Numbers 9:12.

At this point, it is not necessary to locate the exact date of the crucifixion in 31 AD using the AB calendar because unlike with Karaite and Rabbinical reckoning where there are only two or three possible dates, under the AB calendar there is a two week range relative to the Julian calendar of when the Passover may have been kept. Of course the ‘range’ is relative - on the AB calendar, the feasts were ‘set’ and did not vary.

If someone was to try to find the exact Crucifixion date using this calendar, that will probably involve establishing the intercalation system with more certainly and then synchronizing the eight-year cycle with the known Sabbatical and Jubilee (J&S) cycles.

Regarding October 22, 1844, I mentioned that the Day of Atonement was announced on the first day of the seventh month, and that the connection to the lunar month is supported in the Psalm scroll from Qumran. The lunar part of the AB calendar could agree with Karaite reckoning in about 2 or 3 years of the eight year cycle, but because of the AB’s two day drift during the cycle, it would be ‘off’ by a day for the other years. This means that October 22, 1844 is a very possible date on the AB calendar, and given that we know it is correct, that date could be used to help in synchronizing the calendar with the sabbatical cycle.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/10/06 04:22 AM

Daryl and Rosangela:

Since starting the above thread, my understanding of the AB calendar has evolved quite a bit. I'm wondering what you both think of the suggestion of deleting it. I've said things in it that would be confusing to someone new to the topic. If you think it should stay I have a summary of about 500 words that I can add to it, but if you think deleting it is OK - my preference - I can use my summary to open a new thread. What do you both think? Also, if anyone else has comments, they are welcome.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/11/06 04:20 PM

Here is a summary of the evidence so far that the calendar of the Astronomical Book, (the AB) found in the latter part of I Enoch, is indeed the calendar of scripture:


1) A prophetic year in the Bible has 360 days divided into 12 months of 30 days. The AB calendar is based on this year. The solar part of the calendar adds another 4 intercalated days at the end of the year, while the lunar part has six days less. The Karaite calendar is unrelated to the prophetic year.

2) The AB calendar agrees with scripture in that it uses both the sun and moon as time-keepers as stated in the creation account in Genesis 1 and 2. The Karaite uses the moon and the barley crop.

3) The Karaite month can have either 29 or 30 days. The lunar months of the AB calendar also have 29 or 30 days but they are not used to reckon time. In the AB calendar the solar months with 30 days are used and this agrees with scripture in that all passages where the days of the month are given, the month always has 30 days.

4) The account of the flood confirms that the ancient calendar had 30 day months and a 364 day year. (To see how Genesis 7 and 8 allow us to calculate the year’s length see page 5, January 28 post towards the bottom.) The Karaite year is never 364 days. It varies and can have as few as 354 and as many as 385 or 386 days, but never 364 days.

5) Moses, who wrote the account of the flood also wrote the ceremonial law. This law fits the AB calendar. The ceremonial law divides the holy days into the Sabbaths, determined by the weekly cycle, the new moons determined by the lunar cycle, and the ‘set feasts’ determined by the solar months of AB calendar. Modern Jews and Karaites are in error in their calculation of the feast days which they base on the lunar cycle. The biblical evidence to support this is also posted mainly on page 5 of the thread but also in the earlier pages.

6) Ellen White states that the time of the Passover occurred in late March to early April. This statement agrees with the AB calendar but cannot be reconciled to the Kariate calendar in 31 AD, the year of the crucifixion. In that year, the Passover by Karaite reckoning is late April. In contrast, this statement does agree with the AB reckoning of the Passover and also has support in the DSS manuscripts from Qumran. This is also discussed in more detail on page 5.

7) Ellen White states that the sheaf of first fruits was waved on the second day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. This agrees with the AB calendar because in that calendar the second day of Unleavened Bread is always a Sunday. In the Karaite calendar the sheaf is waived on a Sunday, but the Sunday is only occasionally on the second day of Unleavened Bread. Therefore, this statement by Ellen White also cannot be reconciled to Karaite reckoning but does agree with the AB calendar. An Adventist conference leader from Australia pointed out to Ellen White that her statement regarding the sheaf appeared to conflict with Karaite reckoning and a Thursday Passover, but she sent back word through her secretary urging the man to study to find the ‘harmony that exists’. This statement from her secretary’s letter and more on this topic is covered on page 5.

8) October 22 is the correct date according to Ellen White and the Adventist pioneers for the Day of Atonement in 1844. Both the Karaite and the AB calendars agree on that date. This is a divine co-incidence. In this case, the Millerites arrived at the right date using an unscriptural method. The Karaites themselves confirm that in 1844 they observed the Day of Atonement on September 23. Providentially, the Millerites arrived at the right date using Karaite reckoning. If they had used AB reckoning, they would have also arrived at the correct date. This is also covered in more detail on page 5.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/13/06 03:37 PM

Mark,

Greetings. I´m finally at home after almost a two-month absence.

I would like to call your attention to the following points:

1) Please note well the words of Ellen White’s secretary: “She therefore appeals to her brethren to search the Scriptures, and to compare her writings with the Scriptures, and with other portions of her own writings, and thus seek to discover, if possible, the harmony that exists.” Prophets are human beings and make some slips now and then. For instance, in 1858 Ellen White writes about Herod as if the same Herod who took part in Christ's trial also killed James (see EW 185), when in fact the former was Herod Antipas and the latter was Herod Agrippa. In the Bible we could mention, for instance, two slips of Matthew. In 23:35 he quotes Jesus as mentioning Zechariah the son of Berechiah, although Jesus was referring to Zecharaiah the son of Jehoiada (see 2 Chron. 24:20-22). In 27:9 he mentions Jeremiah when in fact he was referring to the writings of Zachariah.

2) In 1844 the 10th day of the seventh month was October 22/23, so the first day of the seventh month was October 13/14. Using 30-day months with the intercalation at the end of the year, the first day of the first month would have been April 16, and Passover would have fallen on April 29, a Monday. So,

a) The Passover definitely did not fall at the end of March/beginning of April that year, but at the end of April;

b) Nisan 15 did not fall on a Sabbath, but on Tuesday;

c) The first, 15th and 22nd days of the seventh month were not seventh-day Sabbaths.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/14/06 01:45 AM

I just now read Mark's request to delete this topic.

Aa deleting this topic would set a presidence (spelled correctly???), I am not in favour of deleting this topic.

The topic could be moved to a different forum.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/14/06 03:03 AM

Daryl, rather than deleting it I put a notice at the beginning advising readers that I've made statements along the way that are incorrect and suggesting that they read my Feb 11 post on page 6 if they want an overview of the topic from my current perspective before they read the rest of the thread. So, I'm in agreement with leaving things as they are.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/14/06 03:15 AM

Interesting Roseangela regarding those errors. I agree that Ellen White may have made some. I don't think these statements are errors of course. You agree that errors in inspired writings are rare I think. I read her secretary's phrase 'if possible' as qualifying the person's ability to see 'the harmony that exists', not as being an admission that there may be no harmony or that her statements on this topic are untrue. It is one thing to mistake a person's identity. It's another under inspiration to make a misinterpretation of the ritual law.

Regarding your second point, I made four posts of Jan 28 on page five. The third post deals with your objection.

I haven't heard back yet from any of the scholars or institutions I quaried on my interpretation of the flood account and how it establishes the 364 day calendar in scripture, but what is your initial reaction to it? It's the fourth post I made on Jan 28 on page five.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/14/06 06:48 PM

Mark,

Any time a new difficulty arises, you solve it by proposing a new rule for the AB calendar. I can't agree with this rule that only the day of atonement followed the lunar calendar, while all the other feasts followed the solar calendar; there is no basis for this in the Bible, and God is not a God of confusion.
While many things have been said about this AB calendar, I haven’t seen any concrete argument which could help SDAs to present their position about October 22/23, 1844 in a clear and precise way. Juarez’s position, however, proves that the 2300-day prophecy was fulfilled to the very day and hour. Both the beginning and the ending dates of this prophecy fall on a day of atonement, and the middle of the seventieth week falls exactly on a Passover supper.

For the sake of those not so familiar with astronomy, I would like to explain that the Julian Day dating method is a dating system that has been in use for centuries by astronomers, geophysicists, chronologers, and others who needed to have an unambiguous dating system based on continuing day counts. For dates on or before 4 October 1582, this dating system uses the Julian calendar; for dates on or after 15 October 1582, the Gregorian calendar is used.
Here is the Julian Day Converter of the U.S. Naval Observatory:
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/JulianDate.html

We know that Christ was crucified on a Friday during the Passover week which, according to the synoptics, was a Nisan 15. This permits us to choose the year 31 AD for Christ’s crucifixion instead of the year 30 AD, which only admits a Friday as a Nisan 14. We know that the crucifixion occurred in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel’s prophecy. So, from there, we have to go 486.5 years (69.5 weeks) backwards to find the initial date of the 2300 days, and 1813.5 years forward to find their final date. Let’s test this.

If you go to the Julian Day Converter of the U.S. Naval Observatory and type October 23, 1844 (for those who haven’t read Juarez’s book: this date fell on the most part of October 23 in Jerusalem, but on the most part of October 22 in the U.S., owing to the difference in time zone) 13:00 hr UT (1 pm, equivalent to 3 pm in Jerusalem, the hour of the evening sacrifice, which closed the ceremonies of the day of atonement), you obtain the julian day 2394863.04167. Subtracting 1813.5 years from this, or 662366.7297 days (1813.5 x 365.2422), we obtain the julian day 1732496.31197. Now type this in the box “julian date” and choose “date” instead of “JD”. You obtain April 26, 31 AD, 19:29 hr UT (5:30pm in Jerusalem), that is, Thursday evening, at the time of the Passover supper, which began at sunset.

“While the disciples were contending for the highest place in the promised kingdom, Christ girded Himself, and performed the office of a servant, by washing the feet of those who had called Him Lord. He, the spotless One, was about to offer Himself as a sin-offering for the world; and as He ate the Passover with His disciples, He put and end to the sacrifices which for four thousand years had been offered. In the place of the national festival which the Jewish people had observed, He instituted the memorial service, the ordinance of feet washing and the sacramental supper, to be observed through all time by His followers in every country. These should ever repeat Christ’s act, that all may see that true service calls for unselfish ministry” (ST, May 16, 1900).

P.S. I'll comment on the Genesis account later.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/16/06 01:32 AM

Re your objection that I’m changing the rules, as I learn more about the calendar, I do find out new things. If you read the thread through though, you’ll see that my basic understanding of the calendar structure is the same. I did modify my intercalation method for the solar year slightly. Where I’ve changed my position significantly though is in how the Hebrew feasts fit within the calendar. In my earlier posts I thought that the feasts were all set using the lunar part of the AB calendar but after looking at it more closely I see now that the lunar part was used only for the new moon feasts and the Day of Atonement. This is supported in the DSS manuscripts and in the scripture that I’ve cited on page 5 and 6 of the thread.

Regarding your calculation, before using a Julian day count, one has to make adjustments to reconcile it to the calendar that the person is using, in your case, the Karaite. In the prophecy of Daniel 9 I think we both agree that the half of a year runs from the Passover to the Day of Atonement. If you use the Karaite calendar to calculate the time between the Passover and the Day of Atonement it is about 10 days less than a Julian half-year. The ten day difference is made up of Tishri 10 to 14 which is the midpoint of the year on the Karaite calendar, and another six days which is the difference between the Karaite half-year and the Julian half-year. So, 10 days less than a Julian half-year would mean that the number you use to find the Karaite date is approximately 1813 + (.5 x365.2422 – 10)/365.2422. This is the number you would multiply by 365.2422 to get the days to subtract in your equation from the day court for 1844. This should result in an April 16 Julian date in 31AD. The reason it does not work out to the April 26 date is probably because the phases of the moon are not synchronized with the solar cycle.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/16/06 01:43 AM

I'll try to explain better what I am getting at in my last paragraph of my last post. If you pick a lunar date in 2006, for example, the Passover on a lunar calendar and use the solar year to find the Passover 100 years ago, you will not get the right date. I think you might come close if the prior year you're aiming for is a multiple of 19 and you use the Karaite or Rabbinical calendar.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/16/06 04:13 AM

Mark,

The 2300-year prophecy has to do with solar years, and it's not necessary to synchronize anything. The solar and lunar calendars are periodically synchronized and, in a long succession of years, are equivalent. It's very simple. From the middle of the 70th week there are 486.5 solar years up to the starting point and 1813.5 years up to the finishing point. Since 0.5 solars years are six months, a month of April in 31 AD necessarily requires a month of October both at the beginning and at the end of the prophetic period. Since the exact initial date is unknown, and you question the date which marks the middle of the 70th week, then let's take the final date. From October 23, 1844, just go back 1813.5 years and you will arrive at April 26, 31 AD - which, by the way, is the 14th/15th day of the lunar month. And from there you go back another 486.5 years and arrive at October 29, 457 BC - which, by the way, is the 10th day of the lunar month. So the scheme is

Tishri 10 ---- Nisan 14/15 ---- Tishri 10

Which makes perfect sense. The middle point of the 70th week is Passover/Unleavened Bread, and the prophecy begins and ends on a Day of Atonement. We don’t know when Artaxerxes's decree was issued, but when could we say it went into effect? First, Tishri 10 is the day when the sanctuary is cleansed, and the prophecy of the 2300 evenings and mornings has to do with the cleansing of the sanctuary. Second, Tishri 10 was the day when the Jubilee began (Lev. 23:8,9), and the seventy weeks of Daniel 9 are equivalent to 10 jubilees.
7 x 7 years = 49 years
490 : 49 = 10 jubilees.

P.S. I've been trying to get Juarez to participate in the discussion, but I couldn't contact him. His wife said he is spending most of the time at his farm now, and there is no telephone there (and, therefore, no Internet available).
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/16/06 06:58 PM

Thanks for inviting Juarez, Rosangela.

Sorry I can't agree with you on your calculation. You should check your assumptions with an astronomer.

I agree that Oct 22 is a valid anchor date - the only one we know with complete certainty.

31 and 457 are also known, but the exact date is still not known exactly. I may try to work backwards like you've suggested, but using the AB calendar. In the mean time, I'll be interested to hear your comments on Gen 7 and 8 and the 364 day year.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/17/06 06:16 PM

Mark,

These are not my assumptions - they are Juarez's conclusions. Let me add that Juarez spent two years with astronomers in observatories of England and the U.S. as he worked in his research. In a previous discussion about 1844 I had at VOAF some years ago with someone from that website against Ellen White and the SDA church, Juarez participated and helped with the astronomical aspect, and we had a great discussion. It’s a pity he isn’t participating now.

I've read and re-read the Genesis account, and what I saw was just one period of 150 days, from the 17th day of the second month to the 17th day of the seventh month. Ellen White mentions these 5 months in PP 105. What you propose is that there was a period from the 17th day of the seventh month to the 1st day of the tenth month that should be discarded, and that a new period of 150 days begins from the 1st day of the tenth month to the 27th day of the second month (although this period is of just 147 days). But what is the basis for discarding the period from the 17th day of the seventh month to the 1st day of the tenth month, during which the waters were receding, and initiating a new period of 150 days after that?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/18/06 05:09 AM

There are two references to 150 days in the flood account – one in Gen 7:24 and one in 8:3. The question I’ve asked some Hebrew scholars to answer is whether the second reference to 150 days is the same period as the first period – the second to the seventh month – or is it a subsequent period. As you read these verses, what does it sound like to you? To me it sounds like from the time the rain first fell until the ark settled on Ararat was 150 days and that it took another 150 days from the time the tops of the other mountains first appeared until the earth was dry.

If verse 8:3 is indeed a second 150 day period, then wouldn’t we be justified in examining the remaining dates in the account to determine the starting and ending points? Most agree that the first period runs from the second to the seventh month. So if there is a second period and my suggestion for the second period is not right, what starting and ending points would you use that add up to 150 days and that fit the context?
quote:

7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
8:3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

8:4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
8:5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth [month], on the first [day] of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
8:14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.

Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/19/06 04:03 PM

That’s the point. I don’t see two periods of 150 days, but just one.

The NETBible ( http://www.bible.org/netbible/ ) translates the text in this way:

7:24 The waters prevailed over the earth for 150 days. 8:1 But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and domestic animals that were with him in the ark. God caused a wind to blow over the earth and the waters receded. 8:2 The fountains of the deep and the floodgates of heaven were closed, and the rain stopped falling from the sky. 8:3 The waters kept receding steadily from the earth, so that they had gone down by the end of the hundred and fifty days. 8:4 On the seventeenth day of the seventh month, the ark came to rest on one of the mountains of Ararat.

The text says that the waters had gone down by the end of the 150 days (v.3), and that on the 17th day of the 7th month (exactly at the end of the 150 days) the ark rested on the mountains of Ararat (v.4). If the second reference to 150 days came after verse 4, you might still try to defend that there was a second period, but as the text is, I don’t see how a second period of 150 days can be defended.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/20/06 07:39 AM

This is where the scholars may help us. Using the King James, I seem to have a good case because 8:3 says that at the end of this second period the waters were abated. If we take abated in its common meaning, it can't refer to the ark resting because there was much more abating to do before the ground was dry. Verses 11 to 14 describe the final 'abating' and give dates - 1) when Noah took the roof off the ark on the first day of the new year, and 2) when God commanded him and his family to come out. To me it makes sense that the command to come forth from the ark was given the day after the water was finished abating and the ground was dry.

Anyway, let's see what the scholars have to say. You seem to agree though that the 150 days at a minimum describe a calendar with 30 day months.

By the way, I don't see any mention of Noah checking the barley harvest before he took the roof off the ark on day one of the new year. [Smile]
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/20/06 07:57 AM

I've rechecked my intercalation method for the solar part of the AB cycle. It is a bit different from what I posted above - more simple and more accurate. For the solar part, I’ve found that if we take a series of 112 eight year cycles (896 years) and intercalate 159 weeks adding one week each cycle and two a little more than every third cycle so that the total intercalated weeks come to 159, the calendar is accurate to within one day in 80,000 years given an average solar year of 365.2422 days. Confirming calculations: 364 x 896 + 159*7 = 327,257 days. 365.2422 x 896 = 327,257.0112 days, a difference of .0112 days in 896 years. 896/.0112 = one day in 80,000 years compared with one day in about 3,300 in the Gregorian calendar.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/20/06 05:56 PM

quote:
By the way, I don't see any mention of Noah checking the barley harvest before he took the roof off the ark on day one of the new year.
Mark,

I'll requote what I said in my post of November 28, 2005:

"This simple calendar, which didn’t require any calculations, served a practical purpose, revealed God’s wisdom, and fulfilled its role with success until the time God designed it to last – the coming of the Messiah. It was a calendar given specifically for the people of Israelit wasn’t used before them, and, since it was tied to types, it shouldn’t be used after them".
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/20/06 06:21 PM

quote:
For the solar part, I’ve found that if we take a series of 112 eight year cycles (896 years) and intercalate 159 weeks adding one week each cycle and two a little more than every third cycle so that the total intercalated weeks come to 159, the calendar is accurate to within one day in 80,000 years given an average solar year of 365.2422 days
Just imagine! Having to keep track of 896 years, intercalating 159 weeks, "adding one week each cycle and two a little more than every third cycle".
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/20/06 10:52 PM

I know Rosangela it is surprizingly simple. Have you tried to understand the intercalation rules for the modern Jewish calendar?

The truth is that there is no extreemly simple way to create an accurate cycle that uses a number like 365.2422. The Gregorian calendar is about as simple as it gets but at the sacrifice of some accuracy. When you add in a weekly cycle it becomes a little more complicated, but relative to other calendars such as the Jewish, my proposal is pretty simple - add one week every 8 years and add another week about every 24 so that over the long term it averages out to what I suggested.

If you look at the mishmarot cross referencing system at Qumran, you'll see that the Jews in this community did infact expend a lot of effort in tracking time. They were not merely checking the barley harvest.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/21/06 06:00 PM

quote:
When you add in a weekly cycle it becomes a little more complicated, but relative to other calendars such as the Jewish, my proposal is pretty simple - add one week every 8 years and add another week about every 24 so that over the long term it averages out to what I suggested.
Mark,

The problem is not just the extra week, but the necessity to keep track of 896 years. The modern Jewish calendar follows the 19-year cycle, with its common years and intercalated years:

* c c * c c * c c * c * c c * c c * c

There is a proposal of a reform in the calendar, with 123 intercalations in 334 years (an error of one day in 12,500 years). This is not difficult to do today, when we have computers to make the calculations for us, but would have been very unwieldy in ancient times. Now just imagine keeping track of 896 years for the solar calendar plus I don’t know how many years for the lunar calendar. The poor society which followed these calendars wouldn’t do anything else except taking care of calendars.

Well, I think we have discussed the main points of the subject. Simply put, the Bible doesn't specify any calendar.
The only calendar in the Bible about which we have some hints is the calendar given to the Israelites, which is intuitive. It had lunar months, which is evidenced by the fact that they observed New Moons. The lunar year was adjusted to the solar year by a natural event – the barley harvest, which began during the Passover week. Contrarily to what you think, this was a rather regular and predictable event, which can be evidenced by Christ’s words, “Do you not say, 'There are yet four months, then comes the harvest'?” (John 4:35).
This calendar of Israel, however, was temporary and should last only until Christ's death.
Before this calendar was given to the israelites, we don’t know what kind of calendar was used.
Some infer that the months Noah used were of thirty days, but this doesn’t need to be the case. It is very possible that the period of days during which the waters prevailed is merely given in round numbers, whereas the date of the commencement of the flood (17th day of the 2nd month) and its resting on Ararat (17th day of the 7th month), is given with precision and exactness. Many scholars think that the evidence points to a lunar year, since the Flood began on the 17th day of the 2d month in the 600th year of Noah (Gen. 7:11), and lasted until the 27th day of the 2d month in Noah’s 601st year (ch.8:13,14), making a total of 1 year and 10 days. Since a lunar year is about 10 days shorter than a solar year, it is thought that the Flood therefore lasted one lunar year and 10 days, the length of a solar year. Several commentaries mention this, as Lange, Kalisch, The Pulpit Commentary, and The International Critical Commentary.
Whatever the case, neither can we have a conclusive answer about this nor is this important for us today.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/22/06 02:58 PM

Re the Jewish calendar, it is much more complicated than what you posted above.

Re 150 days in the flood account - if that is a round number, then we would expect other numbers to be round figures too - Noah's age at the flood and the dates. The context indicates these are precise figures just as the rest of the dates and ages in the books of Moses are all precise.

I should have more evidence to present in the next few weeks. Maybe by then we will have a response from someone with knowledge of Hebrew on my 364 day calculation. In the mean time, I've ordered Edwin Theile's 'The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings' which is said to be a classic on OT chronology. Theile was a professor at Andrews Univ for several years - probably the best know Adventist bible scholar for many years outside of Adventist circles.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/23/06 03:59 PM

quote:
Re the Jewish calendar, it is much more complicated than what you posted above.
Sure, but for other reasons. Several complicated rules are used for delaying the start of the year in order to avoid that certain holidays occur on or adjacent to the Sabbath.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/23/06 04:16 PM

If I remeber right, there are complex rules on the length of the intercalated months. Also I think I remember detailed rules on the length of one or more of the non-intercalated months. It seems like I also remember there being a period of many years in which the 19 year cycle repeats - about 275 isn't it? You are right that some of these relate to aligning the week with the feast days, but they are doing this in the context of keeping the weekly cycle aligned with their understanding of the Law. It is not a simple process for them. But they have been doing this since the dark ages. If such a complex calendar could be maintained in an unenlightened era, the ancients, who were knowlegdable in astronomy and had greater mental vitality than we do today could do at least as well.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/24/06 02:35 PM

A good summary of the rules can be found here:

http://stevemorse.org/jcal/rules.htm

The Jewish life revolves around calendar dates. Besides, the problem with the Jews has always been the many rules of their own creation which are not founded on the Word of God.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/26/06 02:11 AM

Thanks for that link.

I browsed a little of Isaac Newton's book on The Chronology of the Ancient Kingdoms, Amended published in 1728 a year after his death and found at page 209 that he was persuaded that Noah followed a solar-lunar calendar with 12 months of 30 days. Rather than intercalating the 4 days that are required in the AB, Newton suggested 5 days were used based on an ancient Egyptian calendar which although more recent than Noah's, he thought might reflect Noah's method of intercalation. (The Egyptians of course were not a nation until many years after the flood.)

When Newton wrote this he seems to have been unaware of the AB which was not translated into English until about a century after his death. But it is worth noting that he concluded that the calendar of Noah was not lunar.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/26/06 05:38 PM

Rosangela, I noticed today that there is a serious problem with my proposal of how the AB was used to calculate the feasts. The problem is that if the 364 day year always started on a Sabbath, it would mean that several of the dates in the Bible when work was done fell on Sabbaths and that is not possible.

So I'm looking at other explanations - the first day of the week, Sunday, as the start of the year; all dates being lunar but the 'set feasts' being solar; all dates including the 'set feasts' being lunar, but duration of time being solar etc.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/01/06 03:57 AM

I looked up some more statements by Ellen White, Rosangela, on the moon. She says in a few places that the Passover was kept when the moon was almost full, so that is another good reason to doubt that the feasts were set according to a solar AB calendar.

The remaining option seems to be what I suggested earlier - the lunar part of the AB calendar was used to set the feasts, but time was reckoned by the AB solar months.

One of the main reasons I liked the idea of the feasts being set in the solar calendar is that is seemed to offer a good explanation for her statement that the sheaf was waved on the second day of Unleavened Bread. If the second day of Unleavened Bread can be a normal weekday as the modern rabbis say, then maybe the Karaites are mistaken that the day before Pentecost must be a 7th day Sabbath. The text they rely on that day 49 must be a Sabbath may instead suggest a ceremonial sanctity is attached to it since it is the seventh seven of the 50 day period. The same kind of ceremonial sanctity attaches to all 50 days of counting, but the seventh seven more so.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/01/06 04:31 AM

One of the reasons that Adventists and other Christians have struggled with the apparent contradictions regarding the Thursday vs Friday Passover in the four gospels is what I suggested above - the assumption that we have to choose one date over the other. But let me give another reason why both may be right.

I suggested in earlier posts that it would have been difficult if not physically impossible to slaughter hundreds of thousands of Passover lambs in the confined space of the inner court which is where all sacrifices took place. That estimate of the range of numbers is reasonable because if I remember right, some of the ancient historians tell us that the number of Passover pilgrams in Christ's day was well over a million. Two million is what I remember, but I could be wrong, and it that is so, above 200,000 lambs were offered.

The other thing to remember though is that we do not know all of the innovations that King David introduced to the ritual that supplemented the Mosaic law. We know some - the organization of the priestly families into 24 courses that served in rotation, the organization of the Levitical choir etc. But some innovations are quite startling given that there is no Mosaic precident. One of the best examples is the elevation to the line of David as Priest-Kings. We have hints of this in different passages, such as where David wore the linen dress of the priest, sat in the Holy place, ate the showbread, but the clearest evidence that this tradition was passed on to his posterity is in I Kings 9

quote:
9:25 And three times in a year did Solomon offer burnt offerings and peace offerings upon the altar which he built unto the LORD, and he burnt incense upon the altar that [was] before the LORD.
What is remarkable about this passage is that under Mosaic law, not even the Levites could come near the golden altar in the sanctuary to offer incense. This was strictly reserved to the Aaronic priesthood. For Solomon to have done this tends to confirm what most all scholars acknowledge - that King David under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote out some innovations in the sanctuary service. So this is one reason why we cannot rule out the possiblity of some provision for a staggered, two day Passover.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/01/06 04:40 AM

I should also note that the line of David apparently never had authority to offer incense at any other time of the year. The passage I quoted indicates it was only at the three feasts that Solomon did this. God smote Uzziah with leprosy apparently for attempting to offer it at other times and refusing to desist when warned by the priesthood.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/02/06 02:00 AM

Here is another passage confirming the fact that the sacred service rituals were supplemented by King David. In reading this today I also learned that the prophets Nathan and Gad also added some instructions regarding the temple ritual.

Regarding my comments that the Passover may have been spread over more than one day, the latter part of this same passage gives another instance of when the capacity of the priests was overwhelmed by the amount of work. In this case, the total number of animals being offered was about 4,000, perhaps only a fiftieth of the numbers that were being offered at the Passover in Christ’s day, and yet the numbers of priests were so few that they had to call on the Levites to assist. Their solution was something for which there was no provision in the Mosaic Law. The chronicler however seems to approve and endorse the course of the priests as correct under the circumstances. Is this more evidence that both the synoptics and John’s gospel could indicate a two day Passover? I tend to think so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
29:25 And [Hezekiah] set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for [so was] the commandment of the LORD by his prophets.
29:26 And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets.
29:27 And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began [also] with the trumpets, and with the instruments [ordained] by David king of Israel.
29:28 And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: [and] all [this continued] until the burnt offering was finished.
29:29 And when they had made an end of offering, the king and all that were present with him bowed themselves, and worshipped.
29:30 Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the LORD with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped.
29:31 Then Hezekiah answered and said, Now ye have consecrated yourselves unto the LORD, come near and bring sacrifices and thank offerings into the house of the LORD. And the congregation brought in sacrifices and thank offerings; and as many as were of a free heart burnt offerings.

29:32 And the number of the burnt offerings, which the congregation brought, was threescore and ten bullocks, an hundred rams, [and] two hundred lambs: all these [were] for a burnt offering to the LORD.
29:33 And the consecrated things [were] six hundred oxen and three thousand sheep.
29:34 But the priests were too few, so that they could not flay all the burnt offerings: wherefore their brethren the Levites did help them, till the work was ended, and until the [other] priests had sanctified themselves: for the Levites [were] more upright in heart to sanctify themselves than the priests.

29:35 And also the burnt offerings [were] in abundance, with the fat of the peace offerings, and the drink offerings for [every] burnt offering. So the service of the house of the LORD was set in order.
29:36 And Hezekiah rejoiced, and all the people, that God had prepared the people: for the thing was [done] suddenly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Edited to correct a miscalulation on the number of offerings. Oct 29/06, MS.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/15/06 03:20 AM

I noticed recently that the text below is translated quite differently in the NKJV when compared to the KJV.

"Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day." Psalms 81:3

In the NKJV instead of saying 'in the time appointed' it says 'at the full moon'. If that is a better translation, it is further support for lunar reckoning of all the feasts, both the New Moons and the fesitivals.

I still favour the AB calendar and although I may not get back to this for another few weeks, it still seems to me to be the best candidate for explaning the solar calendar in Genesis and the lunar feasts of the Hebrews. I hope to study Theile's book soon.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/18/06 04:37 PM

Rosangela you suggested earlier that there is no clearly defined calendar in scripture. It is true that the scripture does not give a complete description in any one place. But, IMO, like all Biblical truths, this one is revealed progressively in different passages.

One of the arguments in favour of a divine calendar is prophecy. It is structured with one day equalling a solar year but in the case of prophetic time keeping there are 30 day months and a 360 day year. When Christ says that ‘No man knows the day or the hour’ of Christ’s return, we have another indication of a divine calendar that accurately tracks human history to its close. He is saying that God Himself keeps a calendar that tracks time to the very hour. It seems reasonable to me that God would progressively reveal that calendar and that there would be a close and immediate connection between His prophetic calendar and the ancient Hebrew calendar. This is one of the main reasons I believe the AB calendar is Biblical: It is the only one that harmonizes the Hebrew calendar with the prophetic.

Today I found another interesting SOP quote that also tends to support the existence of a divine calendar.
quote:

Not until [man] stands in the light of eternity will he see all things clearly.

Then will be opened before him the course of the great conflict that had its birth before time began, and that ends only when time shall cease. {Ed 304}

How does the above quote support the existence of a divine calendar? According to Ellen White, time has a clear beginning and ending point, both determined by the councils of heaven. If heaven created time on a temporary basis, it stands to reason that the main purpose of time is to set a defined limit of something or some things, in this case sin, human history, the length of Satan’s opportunity to demonstrate the principles of his government, and human probation etc. These are some of the main purposes for creating time so as to put a limit on sin and its reign of woe. If God goes to such lengths to set the boundaries of sin, surely He has also decided on a calendar with the times and seasons, and since His will is to ‘do nothing except that he reveals his secrets to his servants the prophets’, Amos 3:7, it is very probable that His will is that we become informed regarding His calendar.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/18/06 04:46 PM

I don't know about you all, but I found that last quote to be fascinating. I suggest that Ellen White is supporting the view that time ends when sin ends but I haven't verified that with her writings. If I remember right that would mean according to her that time does not end at the second coming or at the end of the millenium. Instead it would only end when the last bit of sin is consumed in the person and existence of Satan in the lake of fire.
Posted By: Jeff

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/18/06 05:56 PM

In a sense though, the keeping of some reckoning of time will continue after then:


Quote: from Isa 66:22-23 NASB
"For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD, "So your offspring and your name will endure. (23) "And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.



Jeff
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/20/06 12:11 AM

Good point.

On a different topic, I'm studying Thiele's book, The Mysterious Number of the Hebrew Kings. He's a thorough scholar, but the main weakness I see so far is that he assumes different methods of tracking time were used by the same writers of scipture in Kings and Chronicles. Part of his theory is that the system of tracking the reigns for Isael's kings were inclusive so that the first year of one king was also the same year as the deceased king while he believed that in Judah, there were usually no overlapping years - most of the time.

The problem with that system is that it assumes there is no inspired calendar and no inspired method of reckoning periods of time such as a reign. But it seems to me that a sciptural principle for time reckoning does exists - that is, that part of a unit, for instance, a day, is taken as a full unit in time computation. So when Christ says he would be in the tomb three days, it means you count from Friday and include Sunday. If there is an inspired calendar and reckoning, then an inspired writer who is aware of it would reckon time by that standard regardless of how time is reckoned in the surrounding nations.

But, his work is good, and if there is an inspired calendar, then I'm hoping that the evidence he analyses may make it possible to synchronize it with other ancient and modern secular calendars including our own. At any rate, it's interesting material.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 10/28/06 11:39 PM

I studied Thiele's book last spring and found it pretty interesting but my concerns stay the same - it is a good resource but has the shortcomings I mentioned in my last post.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 10/29/06 01:20 AM


Recently I also had another look at the flood account in Genesis 7 and 8. I have to say; I'm convinced it is the strongest evidence for the calendar of the Astronomical Book found in the Book of Enoch as being the true Divine/Biblical calendar. To recap, here is where my understanding on this topic is now:

1) God does have a Divine calendar that marks all events on earth. For example, He knows and has marked the dates of the first and second Advents of Christ on His calendar.
2) The calendar of the Astronomical Book (called the AB calendar on this thread) is a faithful and accurate description of that calendar. Of course, God has not marked all the events of the future on the calendar for us.
3) Unlike the Gregorian Calendar (the one used by western nations today) which is solar, this calendar is luni-solar and also prophetic with the base year being exactly 360 days, the lunar year exactly 354 days and the solar year 364 days. The latter two years are intercalated periodically with the lunar intercalations occurring every third, fifth and eighth years and the solar intercalations every eight years.
4) The calendar that was used by certain Jews shortly before the time of Christ by a community called Qumron, is identical or almost identical to the AB Calendar. It is described in the famous Dead Sea Scrolls that were discovered shortly after WWII.
5) The modern Jewish calendar is fairly close to the AB calendar in determining lunar dates.
6) The Karaite calendar is also fairly close to the lunar aspect of the AB Calendar.
7) The account of the flood provides the best evidence that this calendar was used not only by the Jews but also the patriarchs, but there are several other passages that give us clues that this is the divine calendar.

Regarding the main features of the AB Calendar, the solar aspect is almost identical to a calendar proposed in our day for global calendar reform and which we will probably hear of much more during the Mark of the Beast crises. This reformed calendar follows the AB calendar in creating a year of exactly 52 weeks, months of exactly 30 days and a year of exactly 364 days. The reformed calendar hasn’t been accept though because to keep it synchronized with the year, it adds a ‘blank’ day or days that in effect create a week of eight or nine days once each year and thus destroys the weekly cycle. In contrast, the AB calendar intercalates one or two complete weeks every eight years. And of course unlike the AB Calendar, the reformed calendar is strictly solar.

Biblical evidence supporting the AB calendar includes the following:

1) The flood account records two 150 day periods and contains five dates. Most scholars, including Isaac Newton, agree that the first two dates, ‘the seventeenth day of the second month’ and ‘the seventeenth day of the seventh month’ mark the beginning and the end of the first 150 day period when the ‘waters prevailed’ on the earth – Gen 7:24. This is proof that the Biblical month contains 30 days. The second period of 150 days is described in Genesis 8:4 as the time when the waters decreased. The final three dates in the account are the 1st day of the 10th month when the tops of the mountains were first seen again, the 1st day of the new year when Noah took the roof off of the ark, and the 27th day of second month when Noah and his family and the animals came out of the ark. This part of the narrative is describing the stages of recession of the water and the drying of the earth. Since the second 150 days covers this period the only dates that can apply are the 1st of the tenth month to the 27th of the second. The first period establish a solar month of 30 days. This second period is the key that allows us to know the length of the year in days because it tells us how many days to add given a solar month of 30 days. The easiest way to think of it is to say, if the year had 12 months of 30 days for a year of 360 days and none were added at the end, then 150 days would extend from the first day of the tenth month to the first day of the third month – five months of 30 days. But since the 150 days of drying ended four days earlier on the day before Noah left the ark, the Biblical year has 364 days. And this agrees with the AB calendar. The solar year of the AB Calendar has 364 days.
2) The account of the flood can’t be harmonized with the lunar Jewish or Karaite calendars. It is not possible to have 5 complete lunar months of 150 days because a lunar month is about 29.5 days long. So this period is 2.5 days too long to be harmonized with those calendars.
3) But the lunar aspect of the AB calendar can be harmonized with the flood account. In the AB calendar the lunar portion is not used to mark time. It is used to mark the new moons.
4) The Jewish and Karaite calendars also can’t be harmonized with the prophetic reckonings of scripture. The AB calendar’s base year is 360 days with the lunar year being 6 days less, or 354 days, and the solar year 4 days more or 364 days. It is probably no coincidence that this is the case. The solar cycle points to man’s relationship to God and the first four commandments. The lunar cycle points especially to human spirituality and man’s relationship with man. The last 6 commandments apply to this aspect. Both aspects are governed guided by God in humanity by the prophetic spirit, and so the basis of the Divine calendar is the 360 day year. This is the prophetic aspect of the AB Calendar. This is especially important to Adventists who correctly attach importance to the prophetic year which always has 360 days. All the end time prophecies of Daniel and Revelation contain years of 360 days and months of 30 days.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 10/29/06 04:09 PM

Rosangela said earlier in the thread that the Karaite Calendar is the one that God gave to Israel as a temporary measure. This is how she reconciles the time reckoning of the flood which can't be lunar with the clearly lunar reckonings of the feast days. If the Jewish/Karaite Calendar was temporary, then we have no basis for calculating the Day of Atonement in 1844. And we have no basis for calulating the unfulfilled aspects of the fall feasts - the feast of trumpets, the complete fulfilment of the Day of Atonement and the feast of booths.

The better view is that Moses who described the flood in detail on the calendar and who also gave the Jews their calendar used the same calendar to describe both the flood and the feasts. So rather than a new calendar being given to the Jews, it was simply the same one used by all of the patriarchs but more detail was added at the time of the Exodus when the annual feasts were added to the lunar part of the calendar.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 10/29/06 04:25 PM

Rosangela cited some commentaries that suggest the flood account offers support for the existence of the lunar year - that the lunar and solar years differ by about 10 days. This is reading into the account the opposite of what it suggests in an attempt to harmonize it with the lunar feasts of the Jews. It requires us to treat the two 150 day periods as being round figures. This is not consistent with the accuracy of the Bible and of Moses. Granted, there are round figures given in the bible in different passages, but in the flood account where exact dates are used, the time 150 day periods are also to be understood as being precise.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 10/31/06 03:37 PM

Quote:
If the Jewish/Karaite Calendar was temporary, then we have no basis for calculating the Day of Atonement in 1844.

If we have the starting date of the 2300 days, we have the finishing date. You just add 2300 solar years to the starting date.

Quote:
And we have no basis for calulating the unfulfilled aspects of the fall feasts - the feast of trumpets, the complete fulfilment of the Day of Atonement and the feast of booths.

The feast of trumpets came before the Day of Atonement, so if it does have a fulfillment at all, this fulfillment has already occurred.
As to the “complete fulfillment of the Day of Atonement and the feast of booths”, how do you plan to calculate them?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/01/06 02:05 AM

Quote:
If we have the starting date of the 2300 days, we have the finishing date. You just add 2300 solar years to the starting date.


If you add the solar years you do come to 1844 but to calculate the day and month you have to use a calendar as the Millerites did. If you say the Karaite calendar expired at the cross, a reasonable and valid position since you think it was part of the Mosaic law, then you don't have a calendar for calculating the exact date.

But if the AB calendar is used which is not part of the Mosaic law but was used by the patriarchs before Moses, the Jews as documented by the DDS, the flood account etc, then you have a calendar that covers the full span of history and all time prophecies can be calculated by it.

Let's take the one feast that everyone agrees is in the future - Tabernacles. If the Karaite calendar is temporary we have no scriptural way to calculate the date of that feast. That position is in effect an admission that our use of the Karaite calendar in 1844 was wrong. But if there is a scriptural way, and there must be because the Sabbath and New Moons will be celebrated in heaven, then there must be a scriptural calendar.

Since the Sabbath is not temporary there must be a divine calendar as I've said.

So, the AB calendar is the answer to your last question. Calcualting the Sabbath isn't an issue because that cycle was never lost. How do we use it to know the true New Moons today. We have to do research like the Millerites did, but do an even better job to establish the probable intercalation method. We may not be able to establish it with a high level of certainty, but it may be possible. I've offered some suggestions.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/01/06 02:54 AM

Whatever calendar brings us to October 22, 1844 would be that calendar, would it not?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/01/06 05:08 AM

We can reach the right conclusion - like Oct 22 - using a mistaken method. I'm saying the date is right but the calendar used by Miller is unscriptural. In this case it gave the right result, but the Karaites themselves tell us that in 1844 they celebrated the Day of Atonement one month earlier than the Millerites calculated it.

The AB Calendar, if we knew exactly how to use it, would give the right result in 1844, at the crucifixion and in prophecy in general because the evidence shows it to be the scriptural calendar. While I don't have complete proof of it in terms of showing how it was used, it's clear from the flood account that there was a pre-exodus calendar that is not part of the Mosaic law.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/01/06 01:43 PM

Mark,

Quote:
If you add the solar years you do come to 1844 but to calculate the day and month you have to use a calendar as the Millerites did. If you say the Karaite calendar expired at the cross, a reasonable and valid position since you think it was part of the Mosaic law, then you don't have a calendar for calculating the exact date.

No. Taking the date of the crucifixion (day/month/year), it’s possible to calculate the starting and finishing date (day/month/year) of the 2300-day prophecy, just by adding solar years. This is what Juarez does.

Quote:
Let's take the one feast that everyone agrees is in the future - Tabernacles. If the Karaite calendar is temporary we have no scriptural way to calculate the date of that feast.

Why on earth would we need to calculate the date of a feast which will occur in heaven?
Quote:
We can reach the right conclusion - like Oct 22 - using a mistaken method. I'm saying the date is right but the calendar used by Miller is unscriptural. In this case it gave the right result, but the Karaites themselves tell us that in 1844 they celebrated the Day of Atonement one month earlier than the Millerites calculated it.

The karaites in 1844 were following the rabbinical calendar, not the karaite calendar. The exact date of the Day of Atonement according to the karaite calendar in 1844 is virtually unknown, since we don’t have a crop report from Jerusalem in that year.

Quote:
The AB Calendar, if we knew exactly how to use it, would give the right result in 1844, at the crucifixion and in prophecy in general because the evidence shows it to be the scriptural calendar.

That’s the problem. You affirm that a given calendar is the divine calendar, but you don’t prove it and you don’t know even how to use it!
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/01/06 02:09 PM

Juarez is consistent in his method then to use the solar year. But neither of you are fully consistent. It doesn't matter what day the Karaites calendar says the Day of Atonement is in 1844 if you're using the solar year and calculating it from the crucifixion. Why are you at pains to say what the Karaites did in 1844 if it is wrong to use their calendar?

You hedge your bets because you're not comfortable claiming you've calculated a date on a lunar calendar using the sun alone.

Regarding the Feast of Tabernacles, are you sure it begins in Heaven? My reading of it is that there are two more fulfillments of it in the future, both on earth. Regarding the complete fulfillment of the Day of Atonement, this probably has two more fulfillments as well - one when the latter rain is poured out at the beginning of the first angel's message that the hour of judgment has come, and the final when the death decree is issued.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/01/06 05:07 PM

Quote:
It doesn't matter what day the Karaites calendar says the Day of Atonement is in 1844 if you're using the solar year and calculating it from the crucifixion. Why are you at pains to say what the Karaites did in 1844 if it is wrong to use their calendar?

We are just defending the pioneers and the church against critics. Critics say we are wrong because we established the date for the termination of the 2300 days in 1844 according to the karaite calendar and, according to that calendar, the Day of Atonement in 1844 fell in September, not in October. This is wrong, because in 1844 the karaites celebrated the day of atonement in September because they were following the rabbinical calendar. Nobody can say that according to the karaite calendar the Day of Atonement in 1844 fell in September. September or October would depend on a Jerusalem crop report. However, based on accounts of that time, before the global warming, October is a much more probable date than September.
Besides, the karaite calendar is defended because the beginning date of the prophecy, and the date of the crucifixion Passover, were originally established by that calendar. According to the rabbinical calendar, a Friday crucifixion in AD 31 would never be possible.

Quote:
You hedge your bets because you're not comfortable claiming you've calculated a date on a lunar calendar using the sun alone.

We have absolutely no need to do that. I’ll quote from the book The Astronomy of the Bible, by E. W. Maunder (quoted in Juarez's book):

"But 2,300 solar years is an exact number, not only of lunations, but also of ‘anomalistic’ months. The ‘anomalistic month’ is the time occupied by the moon in traveling from its perigee, that is, its point of nearest approach to the earth, round to its perigee again. For the moon's orbit round the earth is not circular, but decidedly elliptical; the moon being 31,000 miles nearer to us at perigee than it is at apogee, its point of greatest distance. But it moves more rapidly when near perigee than when near apogee, so that its motion differs considerably from perfect uniformity.

"But the period in which the moon travels from her perigee round to perigee again is 27 days, 13 hours, 18 minutes, 37 seconds, and there are in 2300 solar years almost exactly 30,487 such periods or anomalistic months, which amount to 840,057 days, {less} 2 hours.

"If we take the mean of these three periods, that is to say 840,057 days, as being the cycle, it brings into harmony the day, the anomalistic month, the ordinary month, and the solar year. It is from this point of view the most perfect cycle known."

We have:

2,300 solar years---------840,057 days, 1 hour
28,447 lunar months-----840,056 days, 16 hours
difference-----------------9 hours

Therefore, 2,300 solar years are perfectly equivalent to 28,447 lunations, with a difference of just 9 hours. In this number of years, the solar and the lunar calendars are perfectly aligned. Besides, as far as I know, what we defend is that one day in prophecy is equivalent to on solar year, not to one lunar year. Therefore, the prophecy of the 2,300 days, to be correctly calculated, must be calculated in solar years.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/02/06 04:03 AM

Hmmm, you may have pointed that out before regarding the solar and lunar alignment of the 2,300 days, but that is quite remarkable. The chances of that happening by accident are slim. I wonder if that cycle might be a partial key in understanding the intercalation of the AB Calendar.

Anyway, I hear you saying that we agree on this: that the Karaite calendar was used by mistake by the Millerites to calculate the end date, right? But you think they were correct in using it to calculate the beginning.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/02/06 02:45 PM

Quote:
Anyway, I hear you saying that we agree on this: that the Karaite calendar was used by mistake by the Millerites to calculate the end date, right? But you think they were correct in using it to calculate the beginning.

Well, in fact they didn’t calculate the beginning by the Karaite calendar. They just used the year 457. As to the fixing of the year 31 for Christ’s crucifixion, it also came later. They used the Karaite calendar just to calculate the end date. In fact, I don’t think they were wrong in doing that; they used the only resource they had. Today the Karaite calendar wouldn’t be a reliable source owing to the global warming, but it’s probable that in 1844 it would indeed have given the correct date for the termination of the prophecy.
What I mean is that a month of April for the crucifixion Passover, and a month of October for the starting (and finishing) date would be possible in the Karaite calendar, but not in the rabbinical calendar; and that the Jews in Ezra's time and in Jesus' time were using the calendrical principles of what today is known as the Karaite calendar.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/03/06 03:45 PM

Quote:
25:8 And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years.
25:9 Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound on the tenth [day] of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.
25:10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout [all] the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubilee unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family. Lev


Besides 1844, there is one other important date three years after the cross, 34 AD, that confirms that there is a divine calendar that is not dependant on the Mosaic law.

This date is when the seventy weeks of Daniel 9 ended, Stephen was stoned and the Jew’s as a nation rejected the gospel. This date is fascinating because the 490 years are exactly 10 Jubilee cycles of 49 years each. This prophecy informs us when the year of Jubilee and the Sabbatical years are and that the stoning of Steven in 34 AD, three and a half years after the cross, was the beginning a jubilee year. (The sabbatical and jubilee years can be confirmed by historical sources as well. I’m reviewing this. I think it is Tertillian who informs us that 69 AD was a sabbatical year. And the Assyrian siege during Hezekiah’s reign appears to have been a sabbatical and possibly a Jubilee year according to scripture.)

It says in Daniel 9 that the 490 year period started with the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. This is a fulfillment of the type. In ancient Israel, the Jubilee was to be proclaimed every 49 years so that people who had been dispossessed by their creditors would be forgiven their debts and return to their land. The Jubilee was fulfilled in antitype in 457 BC when the Jews were liberated and returned to their land.

The AB calendar is silent regarding the Jubilees just as it is silent regarding the Hebrew feasts. These came later and were added to it. The Jubilees and years of release are both linked to the Hebrew feasts as we can see from the above passage because they are anchored in the Day of Atonement, and therefore are calculated by the lunar part of the AB calendar.

I’m reviewing these aspects and the synchronization of the 2300 days. In thinking about them last night, it seems to me that since all calendars are based on observations of the heavenly bodies and that no-one can do it mathematically only (the three body problem has never been solved, let alone a seven or eight body problem) that it would probably be a mistake to use observations with the goal of obtaining exact precision and then abandon further observations. Genesis tells us that the heavenly bodies are to be observed because they are for signs and seasons. In other words, ongoing observation is a primary duty of any astronomer. We should continually observe the heavenly bodies like the magi. This means that scripturally, the intercalation method of the AB calendar is determined at the periods prescribed – the lunar every third, fifth and eight year and the solar every eight years. The calendar can be projected with great accuracy many years into the future, so that it could be used and benefit us today if it was adopted by the business community since it is much better organized. But each intercalation would be a genuine observation and the projected calendar would be adjusted where necessary to match the observed. This would almost never happen today because we have precise observation methods.

(I'm not advocating the AB calendar for use by business. I'm saying it is a much better organized calendar.)
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/03/06 07:11 PM


The bible says that Sennacherib besieged Judah in the 14th year of Hezekiah. Edwin Theile, in his book, The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings says this is 701 BC. Theile has ‘complete confidence’ that 701 BC is the year of the siege of Jerusalem because of the proof available from Assyrian and other ancient records. This harmonizes with the Juilees. 702 was a Jubilee year – see text below. If 457 BC is a Jubilee, 702 is as well. (702-457=245, 245 / 49 = 5. 457 is exactly 5 jubilees after Jerusalem was liberated from Assyria’s siege.

Quote:
37:21 Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent unto Hezekiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Whereas thou hast prayed to me against Sennacherib king of Assyria:
37:22 This [is] the word which the LORD hath spoken concerning him; The virgin, the daughter of Zion, hath despised thee, [and] laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee.
37:23 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted [thy] voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? [even] against the Holy One of Israel.
37:24 By thy servants hast thou reproached the Lord, and hast said, By the multitude of my chariots am I come up to the height of the mountains, to the sides of Lebanon; and I will cut down the tall cedars thereof, [and] the choice fir trees thereof: and I will enter into the height of his border, [and] the forest of his Carmel.
37:25 I have digged, and drunk water; and with the sole of my feet have I dried up all the rivers of the besieged places.
37:26 Hast thou not heard long ago, [how] I have done it; [and] of ancient times, that I have formed it? now have I brought it to pass, that thou shouldest be to lay waste defenced cities [into] ruinous heaps.
37:27 Therefore their inhabitants [were] of small power, they were dismayed and confounded: they were [as] the grass of the field, and [as] the green herb, [as] the grass on the housetops, and [as corn] blasted before it be grown up.
37:28 But I know thy abode, and thy going out, and thy coming in, and thy rage against me.
37:29 Because thy rage against me, and thy tumult, is come up into mine ears, therefore will I put my hook in thy nose, and my bridle in thy lips, and I will turn thee back by the way by which thou camest.
37:30 And this [shall be] a sign unto thee, Ye shall eat [this] year such as groweth of itself; and the second year that which springeth of the same: and in the third year sow ye, and reap, and plant vineyards, and eat the fruit thereof.
37:31 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward:
37:32 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall do this.
[Note:During the Sabbatical and Jubilee years the land was to lie fallow according to the law. So while the siege was underway God told the King through Isaiah that the land would enjoy its rest in the jubilee year that was to begin in the following year, 702BC]
37:33 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the king of Assyria, He shall not come into this city, nor shoot an arrow there, nor come before it with shields, nor cast a bank against it.
37:34 By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and shall not come into this city, saith the LORD.
37:35 For I will defend this city to save it for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.
37:36 Then the angel of the LORD went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they [were] all dead corpses.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/05/06 04:14 AM

The book of 2 Chronicles ends with the destruction of Jerusalem, the burning of the temple and slaughter of the Jews. It makes the rather surprising observation that after Jerusalem’s destruction the land laid desolate for 70 years to fulfill all the sabbaticals that were not observed by the Jews.

There were three attacks on Jerusalem before it was destroyed, but all historians agree that the final devastation occurred in 586 BC and this is indeed the date that starts the period of 70 years in which the land rested to make up for the unobserved sabbaticals. (Note however that the period of 70 years desolation is said to end with the 1st return of the Jews under Cyrus so that the promise of returning in Jeremiah is calculated from 606, the first captivity rather than 586. In the preface to Ezra in my bible – Schofield notes – the commentator says that Cyrus overthrew Babylon in Oct 539 BC and that the invitation by Cyrus to the Jews to return to Israel was issued the following spring in 538. Construction of the temple began in 536. Jeremiah’s 70 years therefore should be marked from the first captivity of the Jews by Nebuchadnezzar in 606, rather than when it was completely overthrown in 586. There were three waves of deportation 606, 597, and 586; and three returns – 538, 457, and 444. 586-70=516 – not close, 597-70=527, also not very close. 606-70=536 – when the Jews first returned and construction began on the temple.)

We can quite easily calculate the number of years in which there are 70 sabbatical/jubilee years prior to 586 BC. In doing the calculation is should be noted that the Jubilee year is also a sabbatical so that in a 49 year period there are 8 sabbaticals.

It turns out that there are 70 Sabbaticals in 411 years when we count backwards from 586 BC.. In using 586 as the starting point I’ve taken into account that it is four years after the previous sabbatical (see the post above that establishes when the sabbatical years occurred) so that two years need to be added at the beginning to make a ‘debt’ of a full six year period that went unhonoured – for a total count of 413 years. That would mean that the period covered began in 999BC. (586+413=999.) The question is, when were the sabbaticals first disregarded. Probably starting about the 11th year of Solomon’s reign because David, as one who was close to God and studied the law carefully would have observed the Sabbaticals. Solomon on the other hand forgot God not long after the temple was dedicated and from that time on the Hebrew knowledge of the law diminished, with partial revivals at times, until the captivity.

It’s reasonable to suppose that for so long as the Solomon was humble and so long as the temple was under construction – until the 11th year of his reign – that Solomon and the nation did honour the sabbatical years. But not long after this, the Sabbaticals were apparently abandoned. This implies that 999 BC is close to the year that the temple was dedicated, and that from about this year the sabbaticals were no longer honoured. Since the Bible tells us that the temple was dedicated 487.5 years after the exodus, the unhoroured Sabbaticals help locate the approximate date of the dedication of the temple as being about 999 BC and the exodus as 999+487.5=1486. BC. 1486 is a Jubilee year, a year of liberty.

This year, 1486, is close to Ussher’s reckoning of 1491 BC as the year of the Exodus. Until the 1970’s most conservative Christian scholars followed Ussher’s reckoning within a few years. Modern scholars however place the Exodus at about 1446, forty five years more recent than Ussher’s reckoning and forty more than mine. The discrepancy is due to the conservative’s reliance on the Biblical record as more authoritative and the modern scholar’s reliance on Assyrian records as more authoritative. Those relying on the bible assert that there were periods during the kingdom when there was no king and these periods, when properly placed, harmonize the Biblical record. Both schools of thought agree that the siege of Jerusalem in Hezekiah’s 14th year occurred in 701 BC. The disputed period(s) lie between 960 and 701 BC.

It is somewhat surprising to see an Adventist scholar, Edwin Thiele, at the forefront leading the scholarly conservative community away from the principle of putting the Bible first. This is not to say that the Bible is free of all transcription error, but to say that if there is a clear conflict between secular and sacred records, the Biblical record always takes priority. At this point I don’t plan to spend more time studying Ussher’s chronology. I’m satisfied that he and other corroborating scholars are within a few years of the true dates prior to 701 BC, but the more persuasive evidence that the longer reckoning is correct is found in the Bible itself. The longer chronology of the kings is consistent with itself and also corroborated in the unhonoured sabbatical years. To recap: Adding 413 to 586 takes us to 999 BC, when Solomon and the Jews first neglected the Sabbaticals just after the temple was built. If that is the case, then the Exodus was about 1486 BC, a Jubilee year, and a date close to Ussher’s chronology and to the chronology of other conservative scholars.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/05/06 04:52 PM

I have great respect for Ussher’s work but it appears as though there may be one or two significant errors in Ussher’s chronology before the Exodus. I’ll mention only one here – that is, the age of Terrah when Abraham was born. David Clayton recently shared some of his work with me on OT chronology and he points out that Terrah was not 70 when Abraham was born, but was 130. The older age is based on Gen 11:32, 12:4 and Acts 7:4.

Ussher worked out the creation date of the world as 4004 BC, so he concluded that there were exactly 4000 years between creation and the birth of Christ. But it appears that once he got to before the Exodus in his studies his goal was to arrive at that date. As I said in my last post, I think Ussher’s work is accurate to within a few years back to the Exodus, but I want to point out now that before that there are one or two areas where he may have been mistaken. This issue with the 60 additional years of Terrah before the birth of Abraham is one.

In my view, Ussher places creation about 60 to 120 years too recent – 60 of those years being the age of Terrah. I think that the duration of sin will be 6000 years, (rather than the duration of the earth from creation) and then we will have a Sabbath of rest from sin starting in the 7th millennium. So when it says that Adam was 130 when he had Abel, it is more likely that the fall was 5 to 70 years before that and creation was 60 to 120 years before that. So in my view, creation was about 4060 to 4120 BC. It's the era of Grace that endures for 6000 years IMO.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/11/06 02:47 AM

I came across an article by Bob Pickle today on historical evidence of the Sabbatical cycles. Bob points out that since the mid-1800's the majority of scholars held to the view that the Sabbaticals were correctly established by a scholar named Zuckermann and that they synchronize with Adventist reckoning of the 490 years of Daniel 9. In the 1970's a Jewish scholar challlenged that view and produced 10 reasons for placing the Sabbaticals one year later. Bob's paper is quite technical but for those who are interested in his defence of the Zuckermann position here is the location: http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/sabbatical-years.htm#conc. The evidence clearly favours Zuckermann.

So, in addition to the synchronization of the Jubilees with 457 BC that I refer to above, we also have good scholarly authority from historical sources confirming the synchronization of the Sabbaticals that make up the Jubilee cycle. 457 BC being a Jubilee, this means that the year prior, the fall of 458 to the fall of 457 was a Sabbatical and that a Jubilee year began in the fall of 457. This agrees with Zuckermann's reckoning.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/13/06 04:17 AM

I was thinking just now Rosangela about your use of the solar years to calculate Oct 22, 1844. In doing that you are actually using the rules of the AB calendar to arrive at that date. The AB uses the sun to mark the years and the lunar cycle is realigned periodically with the sun.

I remember reading that at Qumran they discovered a simple instrument that was used to determine the equinoxes. That would be the only instrument necessary to put the AB calendar to full use.

I've mentioned before that much of the material that Juarez used in his book is evidence of the ancient use of the AB. I’m reviewing it again. I aim to have an explanation of how the AB was used supported by more Biblical and historical evidence before too long. (Not that the evidence presented already is insignificant. There is mounting, substantial evidence. As a reminder, the reason this is important is that there are unfulfilled prophecies, particularly the fall feasts, that have their main fulfillment in the future.)
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/14/06 05:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Mark,

The 2300-year prophecy has to do with solar years, and it's not necessary to synchronize anything. The solar and lunar calendars are periodically synchronized and, in a long succession of years, are equivalent. It's very simple. From the middle of the 70th week there are 486.5 solar years up to the starting point and 1813.5 years up to the finishing point. Since 0.5 solars years are six months, a month of April in 31 AD necessarily requires a month of October both at the beginning and at the end of the prophetic period. Since the exact initial date is unknown, and you question the date which marks the middle of the 70th week, then let's take the final date. From October 23, 1844, just go back 1813.5 years and you will arrive at April 26, 31 AD - which, by the way, is the 14th/15th day of the lunar month. And from there you go back another 486.5 years and arrive at October 29, 457 BC - which, by the way, is the 10th day of the lunar month. So the scheme is

Tishri 10 ---- Nisan 14/15 ---- Tishri 10

Which makes perfect sense. The middle point of the 70th week is Passover/Unleavened Bread, and the prophecy begins and ends on a Day of Atonement. We don’t know when Artaxerxes's decree was issued, but when could we say it went into effect? First, Tishri 10 is the day when the sanctuary is cleansed, and the prophecy of the 2300 evenings and mornings has to do with the cleansing of the sanctuary. Second, Tishri 10 was the day when the Jubilee began (Lev. 23:8,9), and the seventy weeks of Daniel 9 are equivalent to 10 jubilees.
7 x 7 years = 49 years
490 : 49 = 10 jubilees.



This observation is interesting too isn't it. You mentioned recently that the solar and lunar cycles align in the 2300 days. Here you also say the passover at the crucifixtion also aligns - both the solar and lunar. Have you tried to figure out why or what that might mean. The alignment occurs every 10 Jubilees less 3.5 years. Hmmm....
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/15/06 06:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Mark,


If you go to the Julian Day Converter of the U.S. Naval Observatory and type October 23, 1844 (for those who haven’t read Juarez’s book: this date fell on the most part of October 23 in Jerusalem, but on the most part of October 22 in the U.S., owing to the difference in time zone) 13:00 hr UT (1 pm, equivalent to 3 pm in Jerusalem, the hour of the evening sacrifice, which closed the ceremonies of the day of atonement), you obtain the julian day 2394863.04167. Subtracting 1813.5 years from this, or 662366.7297 days (1813.5 x 365.2422), we obtain the julian day 1732496.31197. Now type this in the box “julian date” and choose “date” instead of “JD”. You obtain April 26, 31 AD, 19:29 hr UT (5:30pm in Jerusalem), that is, Thursday evening, at the time of the Passover supper, which began at sunset.



I have two questions about your calculation. The Julian day count does deal with the skipped days in 1582? Also, the adjutment for the time difference for the evening of April 26th would be to add two hour so that it would be 9:30 PM in Jerusalem?

Regarding the AB, I doubt now whether the solar part of the AB calendar was used by the ancient Jews to keep the feasts. The Qumran community used the solar part, but I have to say that there is more scriptural support of the lunar calculation of them. While I was looking into the tension between John and the synoptic gospels and some of Ellen White’s statements on the Thursday vs. Friday Passover, I thought a possible solution was the solar part of the AB, but I don’t think so. The feasts are lunar.

I think the answer to the Thursday vs. Friday Passover is that both were Passover days. It would have been difficult to slaughter and apply the blood of the lamb to the altar for tens of thousands of times in the space of a few hours in a relatively small area of the inner court. On the other hand, there is the provision that the lambs were set aside a few days early. Perhaps they could have been offered on any of the following days up to the afternoon of the 14th. There are several precedence’s for making allowances like that in scripture.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/15/06 04:22 PM

Quote:
I have two questions about your calculation. The Julian day count does deal with the skipped days in 1582?

Yes.

Quote:
Also, the adjutment for the time difference for the evening of April 26th would be to add two hour so that it would be 9:30 PM in Jerusalem?

Yes, it seems I made a mistake in the difference of time zone. I would say it would be risky to try to determine hours and minutes with absolute precision in such a long span of years, but the correspondence we seem to obtain is that, taking approximately the hour of the evening sacrifice in 1844 and going back 1813.5 years, we arrive at approximately the hour of the Passover supper, which began at sunset and extended to the first hours of Nisan 15.
It's a pity Juarez hasn't been participating here, since he is the expert in astronomy who can give you informed answers. I'm not sure I've given you his e-mail address. In case I didn't and you want to contact him directly, please try juarezroliveira@terra.com.br

Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/18/06 10:50 PM

I'm waiting to hear back from Juarez. I hope he contibutes here. He seems knowledgable in astronomy.

You raised a valid objection not long ago that the AB Calendar is of little use to Adventists unless it can be shown to support scriptural chronology, especially the twenty three hundred day prophecy. You noted that the AB can’t do that unless we know how it is intercalated. Below I’ll look into how to put it to use now and in scripture.

There are two background facts on the intercalation issue that I’ve noted earlier:

1) Juarez in his manuscript, CHRONOLOGICAL STUDIES RELATED TO DANIEL 8:14 AND 9:24-27, at page 91 and 92 points out that the ancient Jews marked the lunar months from the first new moon after the vernal equinox. This is in contrast to the modern Jews who mark the year from the new moon closest to the equinox rather than after it. The ancient practise tells us that the modern Jewish calendar is not the same as the ancient and it is evidence of the possible use of the AB Calendar in ancient Israel.
2) VanderKam notes in his book, Calendars in the Dead Sea Scrolls, at page 102 (ebook version) that Julius Africanus reported that the ancient Jews and Greeks both intercalated three months in eight years. This is probably the strongest piece of evidence I’ve encountered so far that the Jews even of the second Temple period – that is, in Christ’s day – used the AB Calendar rather than the rabbinic calendar in use today which intercalates 7 months in 19 years. Eusebius Demonstration of the Gospel viii.2, 54.

The above facts give us some historical data that explains how the AB is intercalated.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/18/06 11:06 PM

I’ll look now at the text of the AB calendar itself. The description begins by saying that the calendar spans the whole of human history. In contrast to the Mosaic law which was temporary, this calendar is binding “to all the years of the world and unto eternity, till the new creation is accomplished which endureth till eternity.” Enoch 72:1, 2.

The primary laws of the calendar are 1) that the years are determined by the sun 2) that the solar year has 364 days 3) that the solar months begins at the vernal equinox and 4) that the 12 solar months all have 30 days so that the additional 4 days are counted at the end of the year. So far, all of this harmonizes with the calendar data in the flood account in Genesis 7 and 8.

The moon is secondary in the AB Calendar, but only in the sense that the sun determines the start of the lunar year. The text tells us that the moon falls behind the sun by 30 days in 3 years, 50 in five etc., showing that the standard year is solar and that the beginning of the lunar year is determined by the sun. So the intercalation method based on historical data and the text is that every third, fifth and eighth years a lunar month is added and at the end of the eighth year the lunar and solar cycles are realigned, the lunar by adding about two days to bring it back to the observed new moon and the solar by adding either one or two weeks to realign it with the equinox.

Regarding the details of the solar intercalation, the calendar is silent about intercalating beyond the eight year period. From that we infer that realigning the solar part by actual observation was mandatory every eight year cycle similar to the mandatory monthly observations of the Karaites but 99 percent less frequently. And, although the 8 year observation is manditory there is no rule against precalculation of longer periods. If they were accurate projections, the observed 8th equinox would agree with the predicted.


Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/18/06 11:37 PM

With the above information the calendar could be used today. The only instrument needed would be a simple tool to measure the altitude of the sun - a sextant is the modern name of the tool I think.

The AB Calendar helps to perserve the weekly cycle more easily than modern calendars by specifying a solar year of exactly 52 weeks.

Regarding intercalation, over the eight year solar cycle if the first year of the cycle happened to fall on the first day of the week, a Sunday, this would mean that by the end of the cycle the year would end about 12 days before the first day of the nineth equinox. How should this be intercalated, with two full weeks or with one? The AB doesn't say but only infers that as much time is added as is necessary to make the new year begin at or after the equinox, the principle being that the new year cannot start before the days start to exceed the length of the night.

Any comments? Next I'll test my intercalation method against the known dates of the 2300 days and other scripture. I'm not sure how long that will take before I post again.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/25/06 09:01 PM

For reference, here is the intercalation passage in the Astonomical Book.
Quote:

Thus I saw their position - how the moons rose and the sun set in those days. And if five years are added together the sun has an overplus of thirty days, and all the days which accrue to it for one of those five years, when they are full, amount to 364 days. And the overplus of the sun and of the stars amounts to six days: in 5 years 6 days every year come to 30 days: and the moon falls behind the sun and stars to the number of 30 days. And the sun and the stars bring in all the years exactly, so that they do not advance or delay their position by a single day unto eternity; but complete the years with perfect justice in 364 days. In 3 years there are 1,092 days, and in 5 years 1,820 days, so that in 8 years there are 2,912 days. For the moon alone the days amount in 3 years to 1,062 days, and in 5 years she falls 50 days behind: [i.e. to the sum (of 1,770) there is 5 to be added (1,000 and) 62 days.] And in 5 years there are 1,770 days, so that for the moon the days 6 in 8 years amount to 2,832 days. [For in 8 years she falls behind to the amount of 80 days], all the days she falls behind in 8 years are 80. And the year is accurately completed in conformity with their world-stations and the stations of the sun, which rise from the portals through which it (the sun) rises and sets 30 days. I Enoch 74:10-17


Earlier in the thread I noted that the base year of the AB Calendar is the 360 day year.

Quote:
Regarding the 360 day year in the AB calendar, VanderKam quotes I Enoch 75:1-2:

1 And the leaders of the heads of the thousands, who are placed over the whole creation and over all the stars, have also to do with the four intercalary days, being inseparable from their office, according to the reckoning of the year, and these render service on the four days which are not 2 reckoned in the reckoning of the year.

Then he states:
Quote:



That is, the four days that are the distinctive trait of the schematic solar calendar in I Enoch are additional in some sense; the base year to which they are added at fixed intervals (in months 3, 6, 9 and 12)is one of 360 days. Pages 73 of the ebook version of ‘Calendars in the Dead Sea Scrolls, James C. VanderKam.




This passage from chapter 75 is corroborated by the intercalation rules in chapter 74 quoted above. In the first part of the passage it says the days of the sun in the year exceed the days of the moon by six days per year. Since the lunar year in this calendar has 354 days, this passage also confirms that the base solar year is 360 days. (354 + 6 = 360) Notice that the same passage also confirms the longer 364 day solar year. My conclusion is that AB calendar is based on the 360 day year and that it marks time on the solar side with the 364 day cycle and on the lunar side with the 354 day cycle and these two cycle are intercalated according to the above passage in the third, fifth and eighth years and intercalated and realigned in the eighth.

I hope to have material on the application of the calendar to the 2300 days soon.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/27/06 02:52 PM

Rosangela, what is the average spring date for the Karaites for the New Year and the Passover from historical records. If the New Year is occasionally before the equinox this is evidence that the ancient Jews did not follow Karaite reckoning. When I was young we had many sever winters. My memory of the climate is that it’s only been in the last 40 years, maybe less, that there’s been a noticeable change. Have you consulted with a meteorologist who’s studied climate change on the probability of having no early springs?

If the Karaite New Year is often before the equinox then we have evidence from the records that Juarez cites that the Karaite calendar was not used in bible times. Consulting a meteorologist would help confirm if it is reasonable to assume late springs anciently. There may be evidence that could suggest what the weather in that time was actually like. At a minimum we can compare the Karaite New Years of the first half of the 20th century before global warming with the equinox.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/28/06 03:28 PM

Mark,

The are no historical records, but just scattered information. More details here:

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/karaite-reckoning-1844.htm

After the karaites abandoned the observational method in the 1800's, they continued to follow the rabbanite 19-year cycle until the 1990's, when Nehemiah Gordon started to observe again the barley crops.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/29/06 11:24 PM

I posted some of Juarez's material regarding the ancient custom. He relied on it so it was more than scattered information - to him it was evidence. At Bob's site he quote's an author that says the harvest was normally a month later so that most Jews can't offer the waive shief because they celebrate it too early, but the same author also says the harvest could have been before the equinox in a warm year.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/30/06 04:29 AM


On the Karaite Korner site there is a statement on the meaning of a Hebrew word for equinox that appears here and there in the OT sometimes translated into English as 'circuit'. The statement is generally quite good and I agree with most of it. What caught my attention is this part below on how the word is used in Psalm 19. It is strikingly similar here and in other passages to the terminology in the book of Enoch. The sun is describe in Enoch just as in the Psalm as coming out of a portal or chamber:
Quote:

Tekufah in Psalms 19:7
The term Tekufah (circuit) appears in Psalm 19 in reference to the sun, but here too it has nothing to do with the equinox. Psalm 19 describes the heavens and sun, which from their unique vantage point are witness to all things in creation, and thus (metaphorically) testify to the incomparable glory of God. Verses 5-7 describes the sun:
"(5)... He [YHWH] placed a tent among them [the heavens] for the sun. (6) Which is as a bridegroom going out of his chamber, and which rejoices as a strong man running a race. (7) From the end of the heavens is its [the sun's] going out and its circuit (Tekufato) is to their [the heavens] ends, and none is hidden from its heat"
Verse 6 describes the sun as a bridegroom that bursts forth out of his chamber and as a hero that runs along a path. Verse 7 then describes the "going out" of the sun at one end of the heavens and the "circuit" (Tekufato) of the sun at the other end. Clearly what is being described is the daily path of the sun which rises at one end of the heaven (its going out) and sets at the other end (its return), "and none is hidden from its heat" during the course of the day. What has confused some readers is that the going out or exiting of the sun refers to sunrise, but this unusual terminology is used throughout the Tanach. For example, we read in Judges 5:31:
"Thus shall all the enemies of YHWH be destroyed; and all those whom he loves shall be as the going out of the sun (KeTzet HaShemesh) in its might". (Jud 5,31)
Those loyal to YHWH shall shine forth with glory as the "going out of the sun", that is sunrise. It may seem strange that sunrise is referred to as the "going out" of the sun. After all, in Exodus we saw that the going out of the year was the end of the year, whereas the going out of the sun is the beginning of the day. However, this is consistent with Biblical usage and in fact the common Biblical way of saying sunset is the coming in or entering of the sun. This is related to the ancient Israelite conception of the sun which at night was thought of as metaphorically dwelling in a celestial chamber (Ps 19:5). At dawn the sun goes out of this metaphorical chamber and the earth is lit while at night the sun comes into the metaphorical chamber and it is dark. This is also the thought behind the comparison of sunrise to a bridegroom coming forth from his chamber. Ps 19:7 refers to the going out of the sun (sunrise) at one end of heaven and its circuit (return to the same place, to its nightly chamber) at the other end, that is sunset (for a similar thought see Ecc 1:5).
And, this is how it is described in the AB.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/30/06 05:02 AM

Apparently the ancient historian Josephus also says the Jews of Christ's day used the equinox to determine the New Year.

Notice that in the quote below from the Karaite Korner that the Karaites don't deny this was likely the case. They say the Pharisee's were wrong. But Christ never makes any objection to the ways in which the Pharisees calculated the feasts. This testimony is even stronger evidence for the AB calendar for Adventists because if Josephus, a highly respected Jewish historian would say this, it confirms that at the death of Christ the method of determining the new year in 31 AD was the first new moon after the equinox rather than the closest New Moon which is the modern Jewish method. In other words, in 31 AD, the passover would have been a month earlier than we believe if the modern Jewish calendar is used. Josephus statement therefore rules out both the Karaite and the Modern Hebrew calendars for Adventists.

Quote:

Question: Doesn't Josephus say that the New Year is determined based on the "1st of Aries"?


Answer: The "1st of Aries" is a reference to the Vernal Equinox and as seen above the Pharisees determined the New Year based on 3 factors, one of which was the Vernal Equinox. In his autobiography, Josephus himself informs us that he is a Pharisee, so it is not surprising that he should quote the Pharisee practice of intercalation. As is Josephus' practice he only gives the details which would be comprehensible to his pagan Greek readers. In this case Josephus does not mention the agricultural indicators of the New Year [according to the Pharisees the Abib and the Fruits] and only refers to the astrological indicators which his pagan audience would have been able to relate to. Josephus' repeating the Pharisee position on intercalation does not give it any more credence.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 11/30/06 05:22 PM

Mark,

The Rabbanite calendar follows what Josephus says.

Josephus says in Antiq. 3:10:5, that the Passover is celebrated “In the month of Xanthicus, which is by us called Nisan, and is the beginning of our year, on the fourteenth day of the lunar month, when the sun is in Aries…”

So what Josephus is saying is that Nisan 14 must fall when the sun is in the constellation of Aries, and the sun steps into the constellation of Aries at the spring equinox. So, according to him, Nisan 14 must fall on or after the equinox. Which means that the method of determining the new year is the new moon closest to the equinox, and not the first new moon after the equinox (when Nisan 1 must fall after the equinox).

Besides, in AD 31 Caiaphas, the Sadducee, was the high priest, so the method used was not that of the Pharisees.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/01/06 03:45 PM

Your reference to Josephus is different from the one quoted by the Karaites, but it also supports the view that the Jews of Christ's day, Pharisees and Sadducees, set the New Year by the position of the Sun rather than the barley harvest. Josephus is documenting history. He is highly respected in that regard.

Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/01/06 04:00 PM

I’m looking into the application of the calendar to the 2300 days. I’m still hoping to have something soon but it may be a while.

Regarding Biblical references to the equinox, the Karaite Korner looks at several passages that use the Hebrew words Tekufah and Teshuvah, Strongs 8622 and 8666 respectively. The former word means circuit or revolution and is associated with the end of the year in passages such as Ex. 34:22. See also 2 Chr 24:23, 1 Ki 20:26 and 2 Sam 11:1. Taken alone, we can’t say conclusively these passages refer to the equinox but they do provide good evidence that the Hebrew reckoning of the year was viewed as a ‘revolution’ or ‘circuit’. The Karaites suggest that the circuit was the repeating of the seasons, but the context and the root words point more to the annual circuit of the sun which creates the seasons.

One of the Karaite arguements against viewing these texts as references to the equinox is their suggestion that the ancient Hebrews were very primative in their astronomy. I've pointed out earlier that this is incorrect. The ancients were advanced in astronomy and the knowedge of it diminished over time, especially in the dark ages. But as late as Procopius, an historian during the time of Justinian in the sixth century AD, the ancients marked time guided by the four annual positions of the sun.

For example, in his work History of Wars that documents Justinian's retaking of Rome from the Goths in 538 AD, Procopius tells us that Belisarius, Justinian's general, made a truce with the Goths during the seige that was to last until the spring equinox. It turned out that the truce lasted less than that amount of time and by the equinox Belisarius had broken the seige and Rome was reunited with the Eastern Empire. The exact length of the seige is recorded as one year and nine days. So at this point, the ability of the ancient astronomers was still significant.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/02/06 01:30 PM

Not even Nisan 1 after the equinox would have given October 22/23 in 1844. I'm speaking from memory here, but it seems there was a conjunction on March 19, the equinox was on March 20, and Nisan 1 would have been on March 21. But this would have given us September 22/23 for the Day of Atonement, instead of October 22/23.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/02/06 03:31 PM

Thanks Rosangela. Those are the kinds of issues I'm looking into and the reason this will take some time. I have to educate myself more on astronomy.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/03/06 05:37 PM


In the Bible, the day begins at sunset rather than at midnight and so we observe the Sabbath according to the definition of the day in Genesis – ‘the evening and the morning were the xth day’ and according to other scriptures that also confirm this reckoning. This is another evidence that there is a divine calendar not dependant on the Mosaic ceremonial law.

For centuries all Jews, Karaites included, have also used this definition of day. But there is a custom with the Karaites that appears to conflict with the Biblical definition of day – that is their reckoning of the New Moon. For Karaites the New Moon is the first visible sliver viewed at evening. The conflict between the Karaites and the biblical reckoning of the day is that the new day has already started when first sliver becomes visible just after sundown. So what the Karaites are doing in effect is to retroactively include those last minutes of the old month before the New Moon appears in the new month.

For the modern Jews who count the new moon from the conjunction the same issue exists but I haven’t looked into how they resolve it. If they say the month begins at the first sundown after the conjunction that would harmonize better with biblical reckoning. If on the other hand they start the new month on the day the conjunction occurs then they have the same problem that the Karaites have – including some of the old month with the new.

The AB calendar avoids this conflict with the following rule:
Quote:

And thus she [the moon] rises. And her first phase in the east comes forth on the thirtieth morning: and on that day she becomes visible, and constitutes for you the first phase of the moon on the thirtieth day together with the sun in the portal where the sun rises. Enoch 73:3 and 4.


I’m studying how this is applied but it seems clear that in the AB calendar the new moon is determined by a dawn viewing rather than dusk, and that the new month is defined as beginning on the evening after the new moon is sighted at dawn on the last day of the old month.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/03/06 05:42 PM

For those who haven't been following the thread, the dawn viewing is only necessary for one or two months every eight years because the AB calendar follows a fixed eight year cycle. More observations would have been made by those following this calendar if they wanted to predict when the new moon would occur at the end of the cycle, but only one or two observations every eight years were apparently required.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/03/06 06:01 PM

I came across this material on the internet by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, 260 to 300-311. He talks in http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-06/anf06-102.htm of when to celebrate Passover, saying Jews calculated it correctly until the destruction of the temple, then sometimes celebrated it too early. They were using a calculated calendar at this time, not an observed approach. I haven’t analysed this carefully, but the writer makes several good points. I hope to have more comments on the text later.

Quote:
1. Since the mercy of God is everywhere great, let us bless Him, and also because He has sent unto us the Spirit of truth to guide us into all truth. For for this cause the month Abib was appointed by the law to be the beginning of months, and was made known unto us as the first among the months of the year; both by the ancient writers who lived before, and by the later who lived after the destruction of Jerusalem, it was shown to possess a most clear and evidently definite period, especially because in some places the reaping is early, and sometimes it is late, so as to be sometimes before the time and sometimes after it, as it happened in the very beginning of the giving of the law, before the Passover, according as it is written, "But the wheat and the rye were not smitten, for they were not grown up."16 Whence it is rightly prescribed by the law, that from the vernal equinox, in whatsoever week the fourteenth day of the first month shall fall, in it the Passover is to be celebrated, becoming and conformable songs of praise having been first taken up for its celebration. For this first month, says he, "shall be unto you the beginning of months,"17 when the sun in the summer-time sends forth a far stronger and clearer light, and the days are lengthened and become longer, whilst the nights are contracted and shortened. Moreover, when the new seeds have sprung up, they are thoroughly purged, and borne into the threshing floor; nor only this, but also all the shrubs blossom, and burst forth into flower. Immediately therefore they are discovered to send forth in alternation various and diverse fruits, so that the grape-clusters are found at that time; as says the lawgiver, "Now, it was the time of spring, of the first ripe grapes; "18 and when he sent the men to spy out the land, they brought, on bearers, a large cluster of grapes, and pomegranates also, and figs. For then, as they say, our eternal God also, the Maker and Creator of all things, framed all things, and said to them, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself upon the earth" Then he adds, "And it was so; and God saw that it was good."19 Moreover, he makes quite clear that the first month amongst the Hebrews was appointed by law, which we know to have been observed by the Jews up to the destruction of Jerusalem, because this has been so handed down by the Hebrew tradition. But after the destruction of the city it was mocked at by some hardening of heart, which we observing, according to the law, with sincerity have received; and in this, according to the Word, when he speaks of the day of our holy festivity, which the election bath attained: but the rest have become hardened,20 as said the Scripture; and after other things.
2. And He says as follows: "All these things will they do unto you for My name's sake, because they know not Him that sent Me."21 But if they knew not Him who sent, and Him who was sent, there is no reason to doubt but that they have been ignorant of the Passover as prescribed by the law, so as not merely to err in their choice of the place, but also in reckoning the beginning of the month, which is the first amongst the months of the year, on the fourteenth day of which, being accurately observed, after the equinox, the ancients celebrated the Passover according to the divine command; whereas the men of the present day now celebrate it before the equinox, and that altogether through negligence and error, being ignorant how they celebrated it in its season, as He confesses who in these things was described.
3. Whether therefore the Jews erroneously sometimes celebrate their Passover according to the course of the moon in the month Phamenoth, or according to the intercalary month, every third year in the month Pharmuthi22 matters not to us. For we have no other object than to keep the remembrance of His Passion, and that at this very time; as those who were eye-witnesses of it have from the beginning handed down, before the Egyptians believed. For neither by observing the course of the moon do they necessarily celebrate it on the sixteenth day of Phamenoth, but once every three years in the month Pharmuthi; for from the beginning, and before the advent of Christ, they seem to have so done. Hence, when the Lord reproves them by the prophet, He says, "They do always err in their heart; and I have sworn in My wrath that they shall not enter into My rest."23. . . . . .For the ancients seem to have kept it after the vernal equinox, which you can discover if you read ancient books, and those especially which were written by the learned Hebrews.
7. That therefore up to the period of the Lord's Passion, and at the time of the last destruction of Jerusalem, which happened under Vespasian, the Roman emperor, the people of Israel, rightly observing the fourteenth day of the first lunar month, celebrated on it the Passover of the law, has been briefly demonstrated.. . . in the years before His public ministry and during His public ministry, did celebrate the legal and shadowy Passover, eating the typical lamb. For "I came not to destroy the law, or the prophets, but to fulfil them," the Saviour Himself said in the Gospel.
But after His public ministry He did not eat of the lamb,25 but Himself suffered as the true Lamb in the Paschal feast, as John, the divine and evangelist, teaches us in the Gospel written by him, where he thus speaks: "Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment-hall, lest they should be defined, but that they might eat the passover."26 And after a few things more. "When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment-seat, in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the third hour,"27 as the correct books render it, and the copy itself that was written by the hand of the evangelist, which, by the divine grace, has been preserved in the most holy church of Ephesus, and is there adored by the faithful. And again the same evangelist says: "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the Sabbath-day (for that Sabbath-day was an high day), besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."28 On that day, therefore, on which the Jews were about to eat the Passover in the evening, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ was crucified, being made the victim to those who were about to partake by faith of the mystery concerning Him, according to what is written by the blessed Paul: "For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us; "29 and not as some who, carried along by ignorance, confidently affirm that after He had eaten the Passover, He was betrayed; which we neither learn from the holy evangelists, nor has any of the blessed apostles handed it down to us. At the time, therefore, in which our Lord and God Jesus Christ suffered for us, according to the flesh, He did not eat of the legal Passover; but, as I have said, He Himself, as the true Lamb, was sacrificed for us in the feast of the typical Passover, on the day of the preparation, the fourteenth of the first lunar month. The typical Passover, therefore, then ceased, the true Passover being present: "For Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us," as has been before said, and as that chosen vessel, the apostle Paul, teaches. Now it was the preparation, about the third hour, as the accurate books have it, and the autograph copy itself of the Evangelist John, which up to this day has by divine grace been preserved in the most holy church of Ephesus, and is there adored by the faithful.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/04/06 05:29 PM

Notice re this post - After reading more of the material I quote from below, I have to say it's not as good as I hoped. It's worth reading though. It's clear that this author is addressing issues of calculation and so it provides more evidence that the Karaite method was not used during this time and earlier. Another contribution of the article is the frequent but often unquoted references to the calendrical rules of Enoch as an authority on par with scripture. The author's respect for Enoch and reliance on it is evident throughout. He appears to be weak in some of his interpretations though, but I'm studying them.

The quote below is from: http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-06/anf06-57.htm

The author is Anatolius [a.d. 230-270-280.] From Jerome we learn that Anatolius flourished in the reign of Probus and Carus, that he was a native of Alexandria, and that he became bishop of Laodicea.
Quote:


But this Aristobulus also adds, that for the feast of the Passover it was necessary not only that the sun should pass the equinoctial segment, but the moon also.
For as there are two equinoctial segments, the vernal and the autumnal, and these diametrically opposite to each other, and since the day of the Passover is fixed for the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening, the moon will have the position diametrically opposite the sun; as is to be seen in full moons. And the sun will thus be in the segment of the vernal equinox, and the moon necessarily will be at the autumnal equinox.

I am aware that very many other matters were discussed by them, some of them with considerable probability, and others of them as matters of the clearest
demonstration, by which they endeavour to prove that the festival of the Passover and unleavened bread ought by all means to be kept after the equinox.
But I shall pass on without demanding such copious demonstrations (on subjects ) from which the veil of the Mosaic law has been removed; for now it remains for us with unveiled face to behold ever as in a glass Christ Himself and the doctrines and sufferings of Christ. But that the first month among the Hebrews is about the equinox, is clearly shown also by what is taught in the book of Enoch.

Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/05/06 02:46 PM

After studying it more, I think there are several interesting passages that may be helpful but some of it doesn't appear to be historical. It seems to have been altered. But, here is one of the more interesting passages:

Quote:
But what wonder is it that they should have erred in the matter of the 21st day of the moon who have added three days before the equinox, in which they hold that the Passover may be celebrated? An assertion which certainly must be considered altogether absurd, . . .

In this passage the author condemns a custom among some of allowing three days before the equinox as being contrary to scripture. I've been studying this because the rules of the AB calendar may have a different definition of the equinox than what is accepted today just as this calendar seems to have a different method of calculating the month - with a dawn viewing on the last day of the old month.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/11/06 04:23 AM

I'm not sure if I mentioned this before, but 1 Samuel 20:5 is also evidence of a precalculated lunar calendar. In that passage, David says to Johnathan that the next day will be the New Moon. If the Karaite method was in use at the time, David would say 'I think' tomorrow is the New Moon rather than saying positively that tomorrow would be the New Moon because until the evening siting was made the New Moon under Karaite rules can't be announced.

Two other passages that indicate a the use of solar months along side the lunar months for the purpose of tracking civil time as in the AB calendar are from I Kings 4:7 and 1 Chor 27:1-15. These indicate that there were 12 months. No provision is made for a 13th about every 3 years which would be essential in these passages if a lunar reckoning was being used.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/31/06 03:48 AM

I’ve made some progress on the practical use of the AB Calendar. One issue that has to be settled at the start before the calendar can be used is how to determine the equinox. In modern times the spring equinox is defined as the time when the sun moves from south to north across the equator in the spring of the year. In the second to last post above I mentioned that some of the Jews and/or Christians reckoned the equinox differently than we do today placing it about three days before the modern equinox. Why did they do that? Apparently they did it because they calculated the equinox according to the rules in the Book of Enoch. Those rules simply say that the new year takes place in the spring when the day becomes longer than the night. But some will ask, isn’t that the same as the equinox?

No, it’s actually not the same. If you download most any astonomical software that calulates the length of days during the year based on geographic location, you’ll see that on the day of the modern spring equinox, that the days are already longer than night at most places on earth a few days before the modern equinox. The most important factors causing the difference are the lay of the land, altitude, and the refraction of the rays of the sun that allows us to see it longer at sunrise and sundown.

The ‘problem’ with this ancient re-definition of the equinox in the AB calendar is that it requires us to chose a geographic location as the official timekeeper for our globe. But is that an insurmountable problem. I suggest that Jerusalem, Israel is a good candidate. Wouldn’t it make sense that Jerusalem rather than Greenwich, England would be the point of reference for astronomical calculations?

On a different topic, I’ve been able produce an intercalation method for the 8 year lunar cycle of the AB Calendar that seems like a good fit and am working on the solar. But even if my calculations are precise, I still have the challenge of deciding where the cycles begin. Certain facinating astronomical facts lead me to conclude that a good candidate for the starting point where all of the cycles seem to align is the fall of 457 BC, the beginning of the 2300 days. So, when I’m finished studying the solar cycle, I hope to post how the calendar should be used to confirm all of the dates that were established by the pioneers of Adventism and witnessed by the Holy Spirit.

For now until I’m finished with my solar studies, I’ll just add a comment or two to the observations about the astronomy of the 2300 days of Daniel 8. Recall that 2300 years yield a very precise alignment between the lunar and solar cycles. As Rosangela said above, there are exactly or almost exactly 28,447 lunations or synodic months, in 2300 solar years or mean tropical years. But not only that, there are also exactly or almost exactly 30,487 anomolistic months (this month is defined as the interval (27.55455 days) between two successive perigee passages of the Moon) a fact that caused one astronomer to comment that the 2300 days/years of Daniel is the most perfect cycle of years known to astronomy (and is also an excellent proof that the periods being discussed are literal years.).

There are two or three other cycles of the moon known to astronomy (such as the sidereal month) that do not align with this cycle, but the fascinating aspect of the cycles that do align in an exact 2300 year period is that these cycles are relative to the earth which is the reference point of the AB calendar. In the AB Calendar the earth is the primary reference point rather than the stars by which modern astronomers calculate sidereal time or the sun. All movement of the heavenly bodies in the AB Calendar is relative to the earth.

This is not at odds with Newtonian mechanics. Newton places the centre of the solar system at the gravitational centre of the sun and planets and his laws prove the truth of that system. But an object's physical mass does not determine the centre of interest. In heaven's eyes, there can be no question, the sun and planets serve the earth and it's inhabitants as the Creator intended when the heavenly bodies were placed in the heavens for 'signs and seasons' on the fourth day. By faith we believe that God framed these other bodies and suited them to serve the above functions for us in the middle of creation.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/31/06 05:04 PM

Quote:
I'm not sure if I mentioned this before, but 1 Samuel 20:5 is also evidence of a precalculated lunar calendar. In that passage, David says to Johnathan that the next day will be the New Moon. If the Karaite method was in use at the time, David would say 'I think' tomorrow is the New Moon rather than saying positively that tomorrow would be the New Moon because until the evening siting was made the New Moon under Karaite rules can't be announced.

Not so. If the moon sliver isn't spotted in the 29th day of the month, the following sunset will necessarily be declared the New Moon (even if the weather is clouded), since the months can't have more than 30 days in the lunar calendar.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 12/31/06 06:14 PM

That would be true Rosangla if the Karaite method was in use and if it was the 29th day of the old month. But it would have had to have been the 29th day of the month with no sighting at the beginning of the day. With the weight of other scripture evidence - the flood account which documents 30 day months, the fact that 12 months are always referred to indicating the use of a parallel solar calendar, the prophetic month of 30 days, never 29, as well as many other passages, the Karaite Calendar has to be ruled out.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/01/07 05:26 PM

The AB calendar makes the solar cycle the primary cycle and the lunar cycle secondary. The start of the solar year is determined by the days becoming longer than night (at Jerusalem) and the lunar cycle for each year begins with the first new moon after that event. One issue that needs to be resolved in order to put the AB Calendar into operation is the 8 year realignment of the solar cycle and how that affects the beginning of the lunar New Year.

It is clear that the AB Calendar requires the beginning of the lunar cycle and solar cycles to occur after day becomes longer than night, but with the solar cycle of the AB calendar having 364 days, one and sometimes two weeks must be intercalated into the solar cycle at the end of each 8 year cycle. The question is, should the intercalated weeks be inserted so that the new years for the sun and moon always fall after the day becomes longer than the night. If the answer to that is yes, then in eight year cycles that require a two week solar adjustment the solar year will be up to two weeks after the day becomes longer than night and the lunar cycle will begin later as well. If there are any lurkers who have comments on this please let me know. In my view, the two week solar realignment should always be made so that the new solar year never begins before day is longer than night as this appears to be the New Year standard in the AB Calendar.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/02/07 10:09 PM

Quote:
With the weight of other scripture evidence - the flood account which documents 30 day months, the fact that 12 months are always referred to indicating the use of a parallel solar calendar, the prophetic month of 30 days, never 29, as well as many other passages, the Karaite Calendar has to be ruled out.

I'm not following you. First, prophetic months/years are not based on a literal calendar, since 3 1/2 prophetic years are specifically said to be equivalent to 1260 days - which would preclude any intercalation of days or months. Therefore, there is no correlation whatsoever between the AB calendar of 364 days and the prophetic calendar of 360 days. Three and a half years in the AB calendar would give 1274 days, not 1260.
Second, that there was a lunar calendar which regulated the feasts is clear, and that some months of this calendar had 29 days and some had 30, is also clear. So how do you reach the conclusion that the Karaite calendar has to be ruled out?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/03/07 05:18 AM

I've pointed out above that the AB Calendar is based on the 360 day prophetic year with 12 months of 30 days each. The AB base year is 360 days with a 354 day lunar year and a 364 day solar year. I've cited VanderKam (spelling?) in support of that fact in addition to the passages in the Astronomical section of the book of Enoch. Since the Bible has passages that refer to a solar, lunar and prophet years, and since God is a God of order, it makes sense to look for a calendar that accouts for all three years that are documented in scripture. No other calendar besides the AB Calendar comes close to doing that.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/03/07 05:53 PM

Quote:
The AB base year is 360 days with a 354 day lunar year and a 364 day solar year.

The conclusion that a 354-day calendar and a 364-day calendar are based on a 360-day calendar simply lacks support. Saying that the AB calendar is based on the 360-day prophetic year, adding 4 days to it, makes so much sense as saying that the Egiptian calendar is also based on the prophetic year, adding 5 days to it.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/04/07 03:08 AM

The text has been quoted that makes the 360 day year the base. I think I quoted two passages that confirm what I've said. One of the most well known authorities was also cited. VanderKam is probably the leading authority in the world on the calendrical statements of the Dead Sea Scrolls. My reliance though is on the passages themselves. Because there is a resemblance in an imitation calendar is no reason to discount the genuine. There is an old English proverb that says 'Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.'

The question is not whether the 360 day year is the base year or not. I’ve established that it is to my satisfaction, but not to your Rosangela and we’ll have to disagree. Moving on, the question that still remains to be answered more fully is whether the base year of the AB Calendar which is 360 days is the same as the 360 day prophetic calendar of scripture. If you can bare with me a bit longer, I’ll post more evidence showing that that question should also be answered ‘Yes’.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/05/07 05:39 AM

The main passages of scripture dealing with the 360 day prophetic year are the ones in Daniel and Revelation. Most Adventists know that the 1260 days are referred to in three ways – as 42 months, 3 and a half years (expressed in the KJV as a “time, times and dividing of a time”) and 1260 days. This leaves us with no doubt that the prophetic month has 30 days and the prophetic year 360 days. But, why would God, who knows all about the cycle of the seasons express prophetic time in this way rather than in some more ‘accurate’ way? According to statements in the AB Calendar, the reason is that the true year in absolute time has 360 days.

It sounds strange doesn’t it to read something like that. But this is what the AB calendar is saying. Notice the following passage from the AB Calendar:
Quote:
And the overplus of the sun and of the stars amounts to six days: in 5 years 6 days every year come to 30 days: Chapter 72:11

In other words, in the AB Calendar, the lunar year has 354 days. If the sun and stars have an ‘overplus’ of 6 days in a year, the true year must have 360 days. So although the AB Calendar makes the solar year 364 days of calendar time, it clearly says that the four additional days are ‘intercalated’ or added.
Quote:
. . .the four intercalary days, . . . are not reckoned in the reckoning of the year. Chapter 75:1&2.
So, in the AB Calendar, the true solar year is 360 days, but each year four days are included that are considered the markers for the turn of each season. This is more accurate than my earlier statements that the solar year is 364 days. But it is confirmed in the above quote and as if to underscore that they don’t belong to the actual days of the year, in the AB Calendar, for some purposes they are not counted at the turns of the seasons but are included at the end.

This harmonizes precisely with the flood account where the five months in Gen 7 and 8 have exactly 150 days. The seasonal marker days are not included in the flood narrative but are included at the end of the year to keep the year's aligned with the seasons. (See my posts above on the evidence of the 364 day year in the flood account.) But in the case of prophetic time in the Bible, the standard 360 day year is used and the four intercalated days are left out. So there is a direct connection between the three parallel years of the AB Calendar, with prophetic time and solar time being identical, except that in the case of solar time the four intercalated days are added to the calendar.

This raises some interesting questions but I’ll have to leave them for now and sign off.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/06/07 02:05 AM

In my last post I said that the standard for time in the AB Calendar is the 360 prophetic year. Put another way, a true year has 360 days regardless of how many days there are in a solar or lunar year. Or to say it differently again, a true year is not dependant on the relationship of the earth to the sun and/or moon but in fact the converse is true - that is, that the solar and lunar years are fully dependant and directly related to the prophetic year and are measured by this standard. Is there biblical and scientific support for this position? It turns out there is support from both sources. First, the biblical proof:

In Judges 10 we have the record of a day of double length from the usual day. In the heat of battle and at mid-day Joshua called on God in the hearing of the hosts of Israel to make the sun and the moon stand still in order to complete his victory before nightfall over the five kings and their armies that he was pursuing. God heard and granted his request, and the record says that the sun stood still ‘for about a whole day’ while Joshua and his men completed their work. So, we should be asking, what happened when the sun stood still - did time stand still and Joshua and his men completed their work outside of time, or did time continue its onward march regardless of the behaviour of the sun? Clearly, it was the latter. If time had stood still along with the sun, nothing would have been done because time is the only way that change is effected and things are accomplished. So time marches on with or without the motion of the heavenly bodies.

The same is true in the case of Hezekiah and the sun dial. The sun in this case moved back, but time went inexorably forward. From this we see that the sun and moon and earth do not have the final say in measuring time. In Joshua’s case the sun lingered for a ‘day’ at its zenith. How long is that if it is not a solar day? And, what is the true measure of a day? And how did the person writing the account know that about a day had elapsed while the sun was stationary.

Regarding the last question the author likely knew a day had passed because Joshua and his men travelled a distance in their pursuit of the enemy that normally took a day to accomplish.

Regarding the question of what is a true day, I'm suggesting that the true measure of a day is defined by the prophetic day and the true measures of the week, month and year are 7, 30 and 360 prophetic days respectively. According to Christ, there are 12 (prophetic) hours in a (prophetic) day which implies there are 12 prophetic hours in a prophetic night. The truth of the 24 hour prophetic clock was demonstrated by Josiah Litch in about 1833.

Regarding the scientific evidence there is complete agreement in the scientific community that the duration of the orbit of the earth about the sun is changing slightly from year to year - it is slowing if I remember right. (Whether I have the direction of change right is not important. What matters is that the scientists all agree there is a slight change.) Scientist agree this does not mean that time is slowing as well. On the contrary, scientists agree that atomic clocks demonstrate that time moves steadily forward even though the rate of the earth’s rotation from day to day varies by several minutes during the course of each year. Unfortuantely however, the same scientific community with few exceptions also believes in an incomprehensible abstract notion of relative time but this is a quite modern (and misguided) development. In contrast to modern scientists, Isaac Newton firmly and emphatically believed in absolute time. If fact it was so central to his world view that he took special pains to explain himself in his most famous work, the Principia. Here is a small part of what he had to say by way of introduction to the main theses of his work regarding gravity and the laws of mechanics:
Quote:


Hitherto I have laid down the definitions of such words as are less known, and explained the sense in which I would have them to be understood in the following discourse. I do not define time, space, place and motion, as being well known to all. Only I must observe, that the vulgar conceive those quantities under no other notions but from the relation they bear to sensible objects. And thence arise certain prejudices, for the removing of which, it will be convenient to distinguish them into absolute and relative, true and apparent, mathematical and common.

I. Absolute, true, and mathematical time, of itself, and from its own nature flows equably without regard to anything external, and by another name is called duration: relative, apparent, and common time, is some sensible and external (whether accurate or unequable) measure of duration by the means of motion, . . .

Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/06/07 02:49 AM

Notice the last part of Newton's statement - true, absolute and mathimatical time flows 'equably', or evenly, regardless of external motions such as the movement of the earth relative to the sun or the moon. I suggest that God is able to measure true time, being its creator, and He has even revealed to us the units by which true time is measured - the true, the absolute prophetic day.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/06/07 04:17 PM

The purpose of my last few posts was to show from science and from scripture that the movements of the sun and moon are not the standard of measurement for true time; that true time is measured on the prophetic calendar of the 360 day prophetic year; and that this is also the same standard that is used in the AB Calendar.

If the prophetic day is the standard measurement of time, then what is the purpose of the solar day, the lunar month, the solar year etc? According to Genesis 1:14 the purposes of the sun, moon and stars are seven fold. They are:

• “to divide the day from the night”,
• “the greater light, [the sun, is] to rule the day,”
• “and the lesser light, [the moon, is] to rule the night”
• and, the heavenly bodies are “for signs”
• “for seasons”
• “for days,”
• “and years”.

So, while the prophetic day is the standard measurement of time, it is clear that from the beginning the heavenly bodies have a time keeping function. They are our heavenly clock. But just as the clock on your computer or hanging on your wall does not make the sun move faster if it gains several minutes a day, in the same way, the heavenly bodies do not have any effect on the true passage of time if they stop dead as in Joshua’s long day, or if they accelerate. The old English proverb states: “Time and tide wait for no man.” This is generally true, but in addition, true time not only does not wait for man, it also does not wait for the sun, moon or stars. It obeys one God, the creator. So we see that time flows evenly and I suggest that God gives us the unit and system to measure true time - the prophetic day and the 360 day prophetic calendar.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/06/07 04:45 PM

This brings up another question: What happened to the cycle of the week during Joshua's long day? Clearly, nothing happened, the week remained intact. If that is true, then does that violate the prophetic clock principle by throwing the prophetic clock out of sync with the solar clock? The short answer is no: just as the 365.2422 day solar year does not break the synchronism of the prophetic clock with the solar year, in the same way, the synchronism of the prophetic week is not broken when a longer day suddenly appears as in Joshua's case. Why that is so may be beyond us. It's probably better not to speculate on the mechanism.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/12/07 05:34 AM

Regarding ‘relative time’ and Einstein’s ‘theory of relativity’ I’ve wondered why scientists are quick to interpret his equation of E=mc2 as support for relative time. It seems to me that his energy-mass equation makes the speed of light the constant so that everything is measured in terms of the speed of light. And according to the scientists who all agree that energy never is lost – it only changes form - light's speed is truly a constant in this equation by the conservation of energy principle. If the equation is true, then the speed of light is the standard of measurement.

The equation is based, in fact, on two absolutes and one constant – time and space being the absolutes and the speed of light being the constant. Speed is distance divided by time. In order for there to be distance there has to be absolute space (by definition, relative space is not space unless there is absolute space) and travel over absolute space is done in units of absolute time. So although scientists hold Einstein in higher regard than Newton, it seems to me that Einstein's best known formula supports Newton's original ideas of absolute time, space and motion.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/13/07 06:12 PM

Earlier in the thread I made the argument that there must be a permanent divine calendar that is outside the ceremonial law because if that law is no longer in effect and the ancient Jewish calendar was merely a part of the ceremonial law, then today we have no basis for honouring the Sabbath. But as all Adventists agree, the Sabbath predates the ceremonial law. It was given to man at creation. So there is still today, at a minimum, a divine calendar that tracks the Sabbath.

But the interesting thing to notice about the creation account is that the weekly cycle is not dependant on the movement of the heavenly bodies. Since the sun and moon were created on the fourth day, how were the first three days measured and when did the divine calendar go into effect? Did the divine calendar begin on the first day of creation or on the fourth? Since time on earth started on day one not day four, and since the main lesson we glean from creation is that the handy work of God was completed in the seven days of a literal week, the divine calendar must have been in effect from the first day of creation, not from the fourth.

The record in Genesis states, ‘the evening and the morning were the first [and second and third] day’ so, again, time and time keeping began on day one, not on day four. This is a further argument in favour of absolute time as it shows that while the motions of the heavenly bodies are a reliable source for reckoning time, that true time is completely independent of them. God in his wisdom knew when the first day was over without their help. And being a God of order, we can be sure that His reckoning of the hours of the first three days were exact and not arbitrary. God created time to flow evenly from the beginning and at the end of the creation week, although the sun and moon were created on the fourth day, a full, exact week had passed on the divine calendar.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/13/07 09:27 PM

A divine calendar independent of the sun and moon must have existed at the time of creation otherwise there would be no way of knowing that four days had passed before the creation of the heavenly bodies. Is the AB Calendar this divine calendar? Below I’ll provide another reason to answer this in the affirmative:

Recall that the solar year in the AB Calendar has 364 days composed of 360 regular days and four additional intercalated days. In the creation account there are also four ‘intercalated’ days. The first four days cannot be logged as regular days on the divine calendar because the sun and moon did not exist. So they are intercalated on that calendar, and these are the same four days that are also intercalated on the AB Calendar. This is further evidence that the AB Calendar is indeed this divine calendar.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/13/07 11:21 PM

Someone familiar with the AB Calendar may object to my last post by noting that in the creation account, the four ‘intercalated’ days come first followed by the rest of the year whereas in the AB Calendar the intercalated days come at the end of the year.

In the AB Calendar, based on manuscripts from the Dead Sea Scrolls, it appears to have been customary at Qumran to insert the four intercalated days at the end, but the AB does not require that. It says only that the four days are not reckoned in the year. So inserting them at the end is permissible but only if it is understood that they are not counted as part of the year, and if they are not part of the year, they are not, in fact, at the end or at the beginning. They augment the entire year by four days but no particular segment.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/15/07 12:50 AM

I've put together a spreadsheet on how the calendar should be applied historically. I'm especially making an effort to apply it to the 2300 days but I'm having trouble with the starting point. If anyone would like to help, let me know and I'll be glad for the input. My email address is Mark.Shipowick@sympatico.ca.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 01/24/07 05:21 AM

My spreadsheet on the AB calendar is almost ready to publish/release. I have some editing to do to add commentary on how it works and improve its appearance but it has the basics now and agrees with the Julian day count and the 2300 day dates. Its backbone is the astronomical solar and lunar years. The eight year solar and lunar day counts of the AB are listed and cross-referenced to the Julian day counts for each 8 year cycle for 6000 years and where the dates for the 2300 days are concerned each year of the eight year cycle is listed as well according to AB rules. All values in the sheet are calculated by formulas derived from the rules of the AB calendar. It seems to work. Once I’ve added some notes and tidied it up, I’ll forward it to anyone interested to critique it. It should be ready in a week or two I hope.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/09/07 04:32 AM

Mark,

I would be interested in seeing this.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/24/07 02:24 AM

It took a little longer than expected. I'll try sending it to you now Daryl. (Second try.) I've trimmed it down to about 9MB. It has about 12K records in the main sheet because I included half year calculations for about 6K years. Originally I was only going to give dates for most 8 year cycles, but decided it would be more useful to show dates for all lunar half years. If it is bounced, check my website in a month or so. I'm hoping to post an FTP link or something similar so that it can be downloaded and/or shared.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/24/07 03:04 AM

What type of a file is it?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/25/07 12:14 AM

I thought it might take me a month to make some changes to my site but I was able to make several of them today. You can download it from the site now. It's an Excel file. Here is the link to the article on the calendar.

http://www.ezekielsite.com/AB%20Calendar.htm

The download link to the calendar itself is in the first sentence of the article.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/25/07 01:11 AM

Mark.

I downloaded it, however, it was smaller in file size than I thought it would be.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/27/07 09:50 PM

I've trimmed it down a bit to 7.75MB. As I write this, I'm uploading the lastest version. It's identical to the one you have now so far as the formulas and dates are concerned but I've made some corrections and clarifications to the documentation and comments and improved the layout a little. It takes about 10 to 15 minutes for the upload with my slow connection.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 10/30/10 06:52 PM

I've been making some revisions to my spreadsheet/calendar and am drafting a paper on it. I don't have a web site now but I'll be glad to email copies of both if someone is interested. My address is Mark.Shipowick@gmail.com. If you're viewing the thread for the first time, I'd start with pages 21 and 22 and then read from the beginning.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 02/27/13 02:16 AM

As this thread was referenced in another thread, I am bumping this thread.
Posted By: His child

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/02/13 04:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
I've put together a spreadsheet on how the calendar should be applied historically. I'm especially making an effort to apply it to the 2300 days but I'm having trouble with the starting point. If anyone would like to help, let me know and I'll be glad for the input. My email address is Mark.Shipowick@sympatico.ca.


My book Put-Out The Light follows the timeline from 607 BC (siege of Jerusalem began), 605 it fell, 537 Cyrus decree (70-years up), 70-years doubled ended with Artaxerxes decree being implemented when Ezra and company literally cleansed the temple 2300-days into Artaxerxes' reign, and from the Day of atonement 457 BC the 2300-years ended twice 1843 and 1844.

Don't forget to have two ending dates for the 2300-year prophecy 1843 and 1844. (The first ending [2300-457=1843], the tarrying time, & the "last ending of indignation" [2300-457=1844])

And there is the 83-years 4-months for the HOUR of His Judgment of the dead (22 October 1844 thru 22 February 1928) that correlates with the dead papacy (1798 thru 1928).

And the 83-years 4-months for the Hour of His Judgment for the living (Yom Kippur - 14 October 1929 thru 14 February 2013) that correlates with the living papacy that was restored in 1929 by Mussolini and ended with Benedict XVI.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/05/13 12:57 PM

I have not followed this thread from the beginning, but I im intrigued by the title.

Biblical calendar? It was E Thiele who demonstrated a rule in the Biblical calender which counted fractions of a year or any time period as a whole unit. To illustrate he would say that if a certain king would become a ruler on December 31, and then die on the following day, January 1, then the record would state that he had ruled for 2 years - even though it was only a very small part of two years.

You need to consider this rule in order to make the Biblical chronology fit into history. Using this rule he solved the problems in the chronology of the Hebrew kings.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/07/13 05:33 PM

Da 6:7 All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions.

Da 6:12 Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.

Some have said the year length had changed at the flood, which is about the only conceivable time it could be affected. But what about this, about 600 years before Christ, or a little less than 2000 years after the flood? Why did they say, "thirty days", 10 times three? Why not 28, or one month? Could it be an idea kept from before the flood? Could it be how they numbered the months?

It still appears to be an accounting type of thing to me.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/08/13 02:07 AM

Originally Posted By: kland

Some have said the year length had changed at the flood, which is about the only conceivable time it could be affected. But what about this, about 600 years before Christ, or a little less than 2000 years after the flood? Why did they say, "thirty days", 10 times three? Why not 28, or one month? Could it be an idea kept from before the flood? Could it be how they numbered the months?

It still appears to be an accounting type of thing to me.

After reading your post I did a search for other passages. Here are two more:
Quote:
Num_20:29 And when all the congregation saw that Aaron was dead, they mourned for Aaron thirty days, even all the house of Israel.
Deu_34:8 And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.


As you've asked, why not a month instead of 30 days. The evidence from the flood account and other ancient texts is that the ancient, biblical calendar tracks both the lunar months that alternate between 29 and 30 days and solar months of 30 days. (In the ancient texts a solar year had 30 day months plus 4 intercalated days per year or 364 days per solar year which was adjusted periodically to align with the seasons.) You can't read too much into these isolated passages but they shouldn't be overlooked. Thirty days on the solar side of the biblical calendar is a solar month.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/08/13 07:31 AM

Are we children of faith? Was Oct 22nd 1844 a lie?

Did the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to proclaim the three angels messages not prepare them to proclaim the message before that date? Did God let men bumble-stumble into the truth and it did not happen when God's messenger said it did?

You all act as if the movement was built off of fantasy instead of prophetic "rocks would cry out if they didn't do it" fulfillment of prophecy. The opening of the sealed book of Daniel happened during that time, the outpouring of the Spirit of Prophecy was received, but this is not enough evidence for you?

If we argue over the point of the Holy Spirit leading the God filled Adventist pioneers to the Karaite calendar, then we deny the fulfillment of the the Spirit of Prophecy. Do you get it? How shameful!

"When April 21, 1844, passed—the time first thought to be the end of the 2300 days—and Jesus did not come, the believers checked and rechecked the basis of their reckoning. Ellen White explained this: {1BIO 49.2} (but we know better now eh?)

"Calculation of the time was so simple and plain that even the children could understand it. From the date of the decree of the king of Persia, found in Ezra 7, which was given in 457 before Christ, the 2300 years of Daniel 8:14 must terminate with 1843. Accordingly we looked to the end of this year for the coming of the Lord. We were sadly disappointed when the year entirely passed away and the Saviour had not come. {1BIO 49.3}
It was not at first perceived that if the decree did not go forth at the beginning of the year 457 B.C., the 2300 years would not be completed at the close of 1843. But it was ascertained that the decree was given near the close of the year 457 B.C., and therefore the prophetic period must reach to the fall of the year 1844. Therefore the vision of time did not tarry, though it had seemed to do so. We learned to rest upon the language of the prophet, “For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.”—Life Sketches of James White and Ellen G. White (1880), 185, 186. {1BIO 49.4}

I hate to say this Brothers, but if you argue with this fundamental point, which takes as much faith to believe as does the eternal Sabbath remaining on the Day of the week that God created it, then where else do you find fault in the foundation of our faith?

Do you think through the passing of time that our brethren are more proficient at determining truth? We are nothing in faith compared to those Pioneers. In fact if we were there, the majority of these brothers would have fallen away after the disappointment!

The prophecy was fulfilled EXACTLY when she was shown it was. If you do not believe this, then you think you know more than the God who gave us this sacred calendar.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/08/13 05:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
As you've asked, why not a month instead of 30 days. The evidence from the flood account and other ancient texts is that the ancient, biblical calendar tracks both the lunar months that alternate between 29 and 30 days and solar months of 30 days. (In the ancient texts a solar year had 30 day months plus 4 intercalated days per year or 364 days per solar year which was adjusted periodically to align with the seasons.) You can't read too much into these isolated passages but they shouldn't be overlooked. Thirty days on the solar side of the biblical calendar is a solar month.
I had thought a lunar month was 28.something days?

So, if a month was said to be 30 days when it wasn't, was that left over from before the flood, or had it always been that way? That is, regarding those in Abraham and Daniel's day.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/09/13 02:30 AM

Originally Posted By: kland

So, if a month was said to be 30 days when it wasn't, was that left over from before the flood, or had it always been that way? That is, regarding those in Abraham and Daniel's day.


A lunar month is a little more than 29.5 days on average and in my opinion it's always been that way - pre and post flood. (I used to think that the calendar was affected by the flood but according to physics a precise 360 day year of twelve 30 day lunar months is not possible because of the nature of the interactions between three gravitational bodies.) Slightly more than half of the lunar months have 30 days. Have a look at earlier posts regarding solar months in the Bible - always 30 days but usually not aligned with lunar months.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/09/13 02:48 AM

The most enlightening part of this study that I found brother Mark, is the fact that the children of God didn't have a "common" calendar until they fell to Babylon. Then they were forced to comply with Babylonian ideology, and everything started to be less defined in truth in the minds of the captured after that day.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/25/17 06:14 PM

After starting this topic 11 years ago I just came across a fascinating statement in the appendix of the 1888 GC, page 681.4:
Quote:
Anciently the year did not commence in midwinter, as now, but at the first new moon after the vernal equinox. Therefore, as the period of 2300 days was begun in a year reckoned by the ancient method, it was considered necessary to conform to that method to its close. hence, 1843 was counted as ending in the spring, and not in the winter. {GC88 681.4}


Apparently by 1888 the consensus of the church and Ellen White was that the ancient correct reckoning of the Biblical New Year and therefore the timing of the Day of Atonement in 1844 was based on the first new moon after the vernal equinox not the first new moon of the barley harvest as taught by the Karaites.

Why is that important? Because in 1844 the Jews observed Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement one month too early on September 23. Since their dispersion the Jews no longer calculate their New Year by the vernal equinox rule of scripture. For us today who are waiting and watching for the fulfillment of the ancient feasts that are still unfulfilled - trumpets, tabernacles, and the modified feasts of Ezekiel's temple which are a window into future events at the restoration of the twelve tribes of spiritual Israel, it is important to understand the calendar of scripture.
Posted By: Elle

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/25/17 10:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
After starting this topic 11 years ago I just came across a fascinating statement in the appendix of the 1888 GC, page 681.4:
Quote:
Anciently the year did not commence in midwinter, as now, but at the first new moon after the vernal equinox. Therefore, as the period of 2300 days was begun in a year reckoned by the ancient method, it was considered necessary to conform to that method to its close. hence, 1843 was counted as ending in the spring, and not in the winter. {GC88 681.4}


Apparently by 1888 the consensus of the church and Ellen White was that the ancient correct reckoning of the Biblical New Year and therefore the timing of the Day of Atonement in 1844 was based on the first new moon after the vernal equinox not the first new moon of the barley harvest as taught by the Karaites.

Why is that important? Because in 1844 the Jews observed Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement one month too early on September 23. Since their dispersion the Jews no longer calculate their New Year by the vernal equinox rule of scripture. For us today who are waiting and watching for the fulfillment of the ancient feasts that are still unfulfilled - trumpets, tabernacles, and the modified feasts of Ezekiel's temple which are a window into future events at the restoration of the twelve tribes of spiritual Israel, it is important to understand the calendar of scripture.

?? The Catholic Church set's their easter celebration after the equinox calendar, but what I seem to recall what I've read on the Jews... The majority of them their calendar is based on calculation. And they(well most of the Jews) have been using this system since their Babylonian captivity release(690?BC), not only since 70 AD.

However, the Bible teach to determine the start of the calendar via the ripeness of the barley, not the equinox. So I don't know how you can come to conclude with such assurance that the Karaites, who uses the barley ripeness method, that their fall Feast dates was a month too early as oppose to the Adventist having it right?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/27/17 08:22 AM

The Millerite Adventists in setting the date for the day of Atonement in 1844 to Oct. 22 were using the Biblical reckoning -- the same as the Karaites.

They were NOT using the more recent rabbinical reckoning which is, and was in their day, much more common.

Millerites were calculating according to Karaite reckoning

In their paper J. Himes wrote:

Quote:
"The commencement of their years being always governed by the time the barley harvest should be reaped, made them always virtually of the same length as our own; for there must have been as many years, as there were barley harvests, and no more. The year beginning with the new moon nearest the barley harvest, made that feast a moveable feast, and the year sometimes began earlier and sometimes later, varying half a moon, as the barley ripened early or later, and the new moon came near to the time of the harvest.
Now there is at dispute between the Rabinical, and the Caraite Jews, as to the correct time of commencing the year. The former are scattered all over the world, and cannot observe the time of the ripening of that harvest in Judea. They therefore regulate the commencement of the year by astronomical calculations, and commence with the first day of the new moon nearest the vernal equinox, when the sun is in Aries. The Caraite Jews on the contrary, still adhere to the letter of the Mosiac law, and commence with the new moon nearest the barley harvest in Judea; and which is one moon later than the Rabinical year. The Jewish year of A D 1843, as the Caraites reckon it in accordance with the Mosaic law, therefore commenced this year with the new moon on the 29th, day of April and the Jewish year 1844, will commence with the new moon in next April, when 1843 and 2300 days, according to their computation, will expire. But according to the Rabinical Jews, it began with the new moon the first of last April, and will expire with the new moon in the month of March next. {June 21, 1843 J. Himes (Signs of the Times; June 21, 1843; p. 123)
Quote:
In an article on the Jewish year, published in the Cry of April 27, 1843, Bro. Whiting says: "The rabbinical calculation makes the first day of Nisan commence with the new moon nearest the day on which the sun enters Aries, on the vernal equinox. It ought, however, to be observed, that the Caraite Jews maintain that the rabbins have changed the Calendar, so that, to present the first fruits on the 16th of Nisan would be impossible if the time is reckoned according to the rabbinical calculations, since barley is not in the ear at Jerusalem till a month later. The accounts of many travelers confirm the position of the Caraites. (The Midnight Cry; Oct. 11, 1844; p. 117)


The fulfillment of the Day of Atonement began Oct. 22, 1844.

That is when Christ -- the Son of Man was brought before the ancient of Days and was given the dominion and kingdom (See Daniel 7:13-14) -- Christ as the Son of Man, taking the place of Adam at the head of the human race , standing before the heavenly court room receives mankind's lost inheritance and then confesses the names of all who overcome by His blood before the Father and the angels (comp. Rev. 3:5)

The last feast -- feast of tabernacles will be fulfilled at the Lamb's marriage feast when all the citizens of Christ's kingdom will be seated at the heavenly banquet (See Rev. 19:8-9)

The starting date of the 2300 years is 457 BC
Ministry Magazine has a good article establishing this date



Posted By: dedication

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/27/17 06:51 PM

In October of 1844 J.V.Himes wrote again concerning the Biblical calendar and it's relationship to prophecy:

Quote:
The prophecy of Dan. ix. 25 concerning the 69 weeks, was intended for the whole Jewish nation; and they were condemned because they understood it not. {October 2, 1844 JVHe, HST 70.8}
In Luke xix. 43, 44, we find our Lord denouncing upon them the most awful judgments because they knew not the time of then visitation. The prophecy was plain, and they should have heeded it. Our Savior, also told them plainly when the period ended, saying, "The time is fulfilled." See Mark i. 14, 15; Matt. iv. 12, 17; Acts x. 37; thus we see that the 69 weeks ended, and the 70th week began, soon after John's imprisonment. John began his ministry in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Casar--see Luke iii. 1--3. The administration of Tiberius began, according to the united testimony of chronologers, in Aug., A. D. 12. Fourteen years from that point, extend to Aug. A. D. 26, when his 15th year began. The ministry of John, therefore,
71
commenced in the latter part of A. D. 26
. From Luke iii. 21, we learn that after John had been baptizing for some time, Jesus came and was baptized; and verse 23 informs us that at that time he was 30 years of age. It is astronomically proved that our Savior was born four years before the Christian era. The proof is this. About the year 527, Dionysius Exigus, a Roman monk, fixed the beginning of the Christian era in the year of the Julian period 4713. This reckoning has been followed to the present time. But Josephus, in his Antiquities, Book 17, chapt. 6, mentions particularly an eclipse of the moon, which occurred a short time before the death of Herod; and the astronomical tables prove the eclipse to have been the 13th of March, in the year of the Julian period 4710. Our Lord was born some months previous to this; for after his birth Herod sought to destroy his life, and Joseph being warned by the angel of the Lord in a dream, took the young child and his mother, and went into Egypt, where he remained till after Herod's death--see Matt. ii. 13--15. The latest point, therefore, that we can fix upon for the birth of Christ, is near the close of the year 4709, just four years earlier than the point given by Dionysius for the commencement of the Christian era. Consequently Jesus was 30 years of age near the close of A. D. 26, and at his baptism was a little more than 30. Soon after this, as is evident from John ii. 11--13, there was a passover. This, being the first Passover after the beginning of John's baptism, must have been in the spring of A. D. 27. ...Jesus began the proclamation of the gospel in Galilee, in the autumn of A. D. 27. Here ended the 69 weeks, and here began the week, during which the covenant was confirmed--see Dan. ix. 27. In the midst of the week Jesus caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease by offering himself as a Lamb, without spot, to God upon the cross. The Hebrew word translated "midst," is by the Lexicon defined "half, half part, middle, midst." The week was divided into two halves, and the event which was thus to divide it was the death of Christ. This took place, according to Dr. Hales, one of the ablest and best chronologers, in the spring of A. D. 31. Ferguson has placed it in A. D. 33; but in order to prove it he assumes the Rabbinical mode of reckoning the year, which is not correct. They commence the year with the new moon in March; but the Caraites with the new moon in April. The word Caraite signifies "one period in the law." These accuse the Rabbins of having departed from the law, and conformed to the customs of the heathen; and the charge is just, as they regulate their year by the vernal equinox, in imitation of the Romans; whereas the law says nothing of the vernal eqoinox; but required on the 16th day of the first month, the offering of the first fruits of the barley harvest. But if the year be commenced according to the Rabbins with the new moon in March, the barley harvest could not possibly be ripe in 16 days from that time. The Caraites are therefore undoubtedly correct. Now our Lord was crucified on the day of the Passover, as is evident from John xviii. 28. It was likewise the day before the Sabbath, as is proved by John xix. 31. According to the Rabbinical reckoning, the Passover occurred the day before the Sabbath, in A. D. 33, and not for several years before and after. But according to the Caraite reckoning, the Passover occurred on that day in A. D. 31. Therefore that was the year of the crucifixion. The covenant was confirmed half a week by Christ, and the other half by his apostles--see Heb. ii. 3, 4: "How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto as by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost according to his own will?" The covenant which was confirmed is the new covenant, i. e. the gospel. To confirm it signifies to establish it on a firm foundation. The foundation of the gospel, is Jesus and the resurrection--See Acts xvii. 18; 1 Cor. iii. 9--11; Eph. ii. 20. The gospel was established on this foundation by testimony, accompanied by miracles, as those proofs which were indespensably necessary. ...
But when Paul was converted, and received his dispensation of the gospel to the gentiles, a special witness was called upon the stand. {October 2, 1844 JVHe, HST 70.9}
These all testified to the one glorious, fundamental fact, that Jesus Christ had risen from the dead. Gal. i. 10--12; 1 Cor. xv. 1--9. It was not with the apostles a matter of faith that Christ had risen, but a matter of knowledge. They had seen, handled, and conversed with him, they had eaten and drunken with him after his resurrection, and had received from him a command to testify to these things. By so doing they confirmed the covenant, or, in other words, established the gospel, upon the resurrection of Christ, which is the foundation of the faith and hope of all God's children. But this testimony alone was not sufficient to establish the fact that Jesus had risen from the dead. Therefore we are told, Mark xvi. 20, "And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word by signs following." See also Heb. ii. 3, 4. When the last witness, that is Paul, had been called, and had given his testimony, confirmed by miracles, the gospel as a divine system of faith, hope, and love was established on its true foundation; in other words, the covenant was confirmed. Paul was converted in the autumn of A. D. 34. As Jesus Christ was crucified in the midst or middle of the week, and on the day of the Passover, which was the fourteenth day of the first month, it follows that the week began in the 7th month of A. D. 27, and ended in the 7th month of A. D. 34. This was the termination of the seventy weeks. From that point, 1810 years remained to the end of the 2300 days. And from the 7th month of A. D. 34, 1810 years extend to the 7th month of A. D. 1844. {October 2, 1844 JVHe, HST (Signs of the Times) 71.1}
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/27/17 08:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
After starting this topic 11 years ago I just came across a fascinating statement in the appendix of the 1888 GC, page 681.4:
Quote:
Anciently the year did not commence in midwinter, as now, but at the first new moon after the vernal equinox. Therefore, as the period of 2300 days was begun in a year reckoned by the ancient method, it was considered necessary to conform to that method to its close. hence, 1843 was counted as ending in the spring, and not in the winter. {GC88 681.4}


Apparently by 1888 the consensus of the church and Ellen White was that the ancient correct reckoning of the Biblical New Year and therefore the timing of the Day of Atonement in 1844 was based on the first new moon after the vernal equinox not the first new moon of the barley harvest as taught by the Karaites.
(It's always important to check quotes!)
I noticed that the above quote is in the capitalized NOTES section of the great controversy. Did Ellen White, or other inspired writers write that? If not, it could still be correct, though.

But tell me if I'm wrong, the purpose of the note, when you read the context of the referenced page 328, is to solely point out that the years did not coincide with our years and therefore the calculations had to be made from spring rather than our December/January. The purpose of the note was not to determine whether calculations were made based on spring barley or spring equinox but purely that it was spring and not our year end.

Do you agree?


But you do realize, starting the year based on the equinox, is NOT found in the Bible. Starting the year based upon Barley IS found in the Bible.

Regardless of which method, you do realize that the new moon after the equinox varies by up to a month depending upon the location on the earth.

The Jewish calendar system was for the Jewish economy.
Posted By: Elle

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/28/17 06:19 AM

Bump! In case Mark didn't see this post at the end of the other page.

I brought up a similar point as kland. I did edit the content of the quote a little but haven't changed any meaning or the context.
Originally Posted By: Elle

?? The Catholic Church set's their easter celebration after the equinox calendar, but what I seem to recall what I've read about the different Jewish faith... The majority of them their calendar is based on calculation. And they(well most them) have been using this system since their Babylonian captivity release(690?BC), not only since 70 AD.

However, the Bible teach to determine the start of the calendar via the ripeness of the barley, not the equinox. So I don't know how you can come to conclude with such assurance that the Karaites, who uses the barley ripeness method, that their fall Feast dates was a month too early as oppose to the Adventist having it right by using the equinox?
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/28/17 05:00 PM

Quote:
as oppose to the Adventist having it right by using the equinox?
Have we established that, yet? I haven't seen anything other than the mentioned NOTE in the appendix.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/29/17 03:42 AM

Dedication, the Millerites did use the Karaite reckoning, I agree. And the editors of the 1888 GC who authored the end notes in the Appendix and who type set the book were aware of that too, but their end note which Ellen White approved (which is a fair assumption since she was very careful to review anything that bore her name) shows that by this time, rightly or wrongly, they now believed that the scriptural reckoning was the vernal equinox rule. I think it was Tertullian who states that the Jews after the dispersion of 70AD began to keep the Passover in some years one month too early, like they do today and like they did in 1844. So I'm saying only that the editorial board of the Review Publishing House of 1888 saw this as I do and that Ellen White is not on record as objecting. It's for whoever has ears to take it for what value it should be given.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/29/17 03:47 AM

By the way, this year, except for Pentecost which is always on the first day of the week, the Jews are observing the feasts on the correct month and the correct day I think but could be one day too early.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/30/17 04:39 PM

Quote:
And the editors of the 1888 GC who authored the end notes in the Appendix and who type set the book were aware of that too, but their end note which Ellen White approved (which is a fair assumption since she was very careful to review anything that bore her name)
Are all notes approved by Ellen White?
Did she ever fail to object to something that was not true?

Again, consider my point of what the point of the note was. I'd like to hear your comment on that in relation as to whether Ellen White should object to the note or not. Or tell what you believe was the point and purpose of the note.
Posted By: Elle

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/31/17 03:26 AM

Nehemia Gordon from Karaites Korner send an official letter to our Church saying that our claim that the 1844 Yom Kippur date according to the Barley Harvest was on Oct 22 is FALSE. Why do we still claim that the Karaite reckoning was on Oct when we were corrected by the Karaites ?

Are you guys aware of this?
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/31/17 04:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Elle
Nehemia Gordon from Karaites Korner send an official letter to our Church saying that our claim that the 1844 Yom Kippur date according to the Barley Harvest was on Oct 22 is FALSE. Why do we still claim that the Karaite reckoning was on Oct when we were corrected by the Karaites ?

Are you guys aware of this?


If the Kairites say we are wrong about Jesus being the Messiah should we also give up on the divinity of Jesus?

Just pointing out that there could very well be an ulterior motive to the letter other than truth by a group who denies that Jesus is the Son of God.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/31/17 08:22 AM

Some critics of Seventh-day Adventism cite Mr. Gordon to show that Karaites in 1844 in Palestine had long before adopted Rabbinical reckoning. However, the point is not what the Karaites were doing in 1844, but what the Bible says they should have been doing. If the barley was not ripe enough, then the year could not begin, regardless of what any Karaite or Rabbi said.

If you actually read the document you will notice, Mr. Gordon only provides evidence indicating that the Karaites had originally followed the Biblical reckoning, but slowly, due to difficulty for dispersed Jews to determine the ripeness of barley in the holy land they began using Rabbinical reckoning, first it was just those living far from Palistine, but gradually more and more accepted the calculated dates, rather than the barley harvest date, and thus most of the Karaites kept the feast in 1844 along with the Rabbinical reckoning.

For centuries the Karaites celebrated their feasts a month behind the Rabbinical reckonings.
The Advent/Millerite were ardent Bible students-- they saw that the original Karaite reckoning was Biblical and they followed that.
Posted By: Elle

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/31/17 10:22 AM

dedication, are you ignoring the historical account of all the Karaites using the Rabbinic 19yrs cycle in the 19th century? Probably you haven't read [lately or objectively] Gordon's document.


"Clearly in the time of Shlomoh ben Efedah Hacohen (c. 1860) all Karaites everywhere had for many years been using the 19 year Rabbinic cycle. Therefore, Yom Kippur must have been celebrated by the Karaites in late September 1844 in accordance with the 19 year Rabbinic cycle and not in late October 1844. While late September may or may not have been the correct month in which to celebrate Yom Kippur (only a crop report from that year would decide that issue) it was undoubtedly the month actually observed by Karaites everywhere."

..."As can be seen, in Baschyatchi's's own time the Karaites of the Dispersion followed the Rabbinic 19 year cycle while those of Israel followed the actual appearance of the Abib and at times this caused a difference of one month in the calendar.

Nevertheless, by the 19th century the Karaites universally followed the 19 year Rabbinic cycle both in the Diaspora and in Israel. The 19th century Karaite Hacham Shlomoh ben Afedah Hacohen wrote an abridged paraphrase of Elijah Baschyatchi's Aderet Eliyahu. In his abridgement, Shlomoh Afedah paraphrases the above quoted passage but adds the following words:

"And for some time now the quest for the Abib has been abandoned even in the Land of Israel and they [the inhabitants of Israel] intercalate years using the above mentioned system [i.e. the 19 year Rabbinic cycle] like we do outside of Israel, [this is] against the legal decision of the Rav [i.e. Baschyatchi] and the Hachamim [mentioned in the above quoted passage of Aderet Eliyahu] perhaps in order to unite with all the communities and so that we will not have a disagreement between them and us in fixing the year."—From "Gefen Ha'Aderet", Shlomoh ben Afedah Hacohen, Israel 1987, pp.22-23 (written in 1860)
"

Quote:
Official Karaite documentation

Subject: Yom Kippur 1844
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:07:55 +0200
From: The Karaite Korner karaite@netvision.net.il

Dear Sir,

In the past you have asked regarding the Karaite date of Yom Kippur 1844. I have recently received further inquiries in this matter and have done some investigation of this subject. Here are my preliminary results:

In the Middle Ages the Karaites ardently maintained that the Biblical year begins with the ripeness of the Barley crop in Israel (called in the Bible "Abib"). The Rabbinic calendar had originally followed this practice but around the 9th century CE they adopted a 19 year cycle of intercalation (leap years) which approximates the Abib but which is far from accurate. This often caused a difference of a month between the Karaite and Rabbanite calendars. The Seventh Day Adventist tradition seems to have heard of this Karaite practice or perhaps they assumed it was the Karaite practice based on their (correct) assumption that the Karaites strictly follow the Bible. The Abib was a central issue to the Karaites and to this day the Karaite marriage contract includes a vow that the marrying couple will celebrate the holidays "according to the visibility of the moon and the appearance of the Abib in the land of Israel." However, already in the Middle Ages there were Karaite communities who slowly adopted the Rabbinic 19 year cycle. At first it was only Karaites in the distant lands of the Dispersion who followed the Rabbinic 19 year cycle. They claimed that it was difficult to receive reports of the state of the Barley crop in Israel from so far away. As late as the 15th century though the Karaites of the Holy Land continued to follow the Abib even though their compatriots in the Dispersion accepted the 19 year Rabbinic cycle. The 15th century Karaite Hacham Elijah Baschyatchi writes:

"Having explained that the beginning of the year according to the law of our Torah is according to the Abib which is found is the Land of Israel in the conditions which we have mentioned, because of our great sins we have been distanced from the Holy Land and we do not have the capability of finding the Abib, we have been forced to follow the Calculation of Intercalation like that done by our brothers the Rabbanites..."

"And the Hacham R' Aharon [ben Elijah] author of the book 'Etz Haim' also said** that in the 269th cycle we heard that in the 4th year of the cycle [i.e. 1354/1355 C.E.] what was for us the month of Elul was for the people of the Land of Israel the month of Tishrei...' ... And this has also happened in our [Baschyatchi's] times in the year 5240 [i.e. 1479/1480 C.E.], the 15th year of the cycle, people went from our community in the Holy City [i.e. Jerusalem] and said that the 14th year of the 276 cycle, which we are in, which was for us an intercalated year [i.e. 13 months] was for them a regular year [i.e. 12 months]. And our faith should not be weakened by this because they [in Israel] go after the observable and we [in the Diaspora] go after approximation... The end of the matter is, all maintain the legal decision that the inhabitants of the Land of Israel should go according to the Abib in the Land of Israel and those far away should go after the calculation of intercalation of leap years and simple years." (From Aderet Eliyahu by Elijah Baschyatchi, Israel 1966, p.39a (written in the 15th century) [translation from the Hebrew by Nehemia Gordon, square brackets added by translator for clarity])

As can be seen, in Baschyatchi's's own time the Karaites of the Dispersion followed the Rabbinic 19 year cycle while those of Israel followed the actual appearance of the Abib and at times this caused a difference of one month in the calendar.

Nevertheless, by the 19th century the Karaites universally followed the 19 year Rabbinic cycle both in the Diaspora and in Israel. The 19th century Karaite Hacham Shlomoh ben Afedah Hacohen wrote an abridged paraphrase of Elijah Baschyatchi's Aderet Eliyahu. In his abridgement, Shlomoh Afedah paraphrases the above quoted passage but adds the following words:

"And for some time now the quest for the Abib has been abandoned even in the Land of Israel and they [the inhabitants of Israel] intercalate years using the above mentioned system [i.e. the 19 year Rabbinic cycle] like we do outside of Israel, [this is] against the legal decision of the Rav [i.e. Baschyatchi] and the Hachamim [mentioned in the above quoted passage of Aderet Eliyahu] perhaps in order to unite with all the communities and so that we will not have a disagreement between them and us in fixing the year."—From "Gefen Ha'Aderet", Shlomoh ben Afedah Hacohen, Israel 1987, pp.22-23 (written in 1860) [translation from the Hebrew by Nehemia Gordon, square brackets added by translator for clarity.]

Clearly in the time of Shlomoh ben Efedah Hacohen (c. 1860) all Karaites everywhere had for many years been using the 19 year Rabbinic cycle. Therefore, Yom Kippur must have been celebrated by the Karaites in late September 1844 in accordance with the 19 year Rabbinic cycle and not in late October 1844. While late September may or may not have been the correct month in which to celebrate Yom Kippur (only a crop report from that year would decide that issue) it was undoubtedly the month actually observed by Karaites everywhere.

That Yom Kippur 1844 was celebrated by the Karaites in September and not October is confirmed by a Karaite Tomb Stone inscription cited by Abraham Firkowitz in his book Avnei Zicharon (lit. Stones of Remembrance, published Vilna 1872). It should be noted that while claims have been made that Firkowitz altered some of the inscriptions cited in his book, all of these dubious accusations are in regards to Tomb Stones from the early centuries of the Common Era and there can be no doubt as to the authenticity of the later Tomb Stones, especially those from the 19th century. On p.242 Firkowitz quotes from a Karaite Tomb Stone from the "New Cemetary" in Gozlow which reads:

"And Yosef Shlomoh died at seventy five years of age. And all Israel mourned him and cried for him 'Woe master and woe his glory'. And they buried him in great honor on the 12th day of the month Tevet in the year 605 of the sixth millenium since creation according to our counting, and according to the counting of Rome, the tenth of the month December in their year 1844 here in Gozlow, or Yeupetoria, on the Crimean Peninsula in the reign of the master the great and mighty Czar, King of Russia and the other lands, that is, the Emporer his majesty Nicolai the first Pavelovitz in the twentieth year of his reign, and in the sixty-first year of this Crimean Peninsula being under the rule of the Kings of Russia since the days of the Czarina Catherine the Second who conquered it from the hand of the Tartaric king and Shekhan Gari Khan who was king of Crimea at that time." [Translation from the Hebrew by Nehemia Gordon]

As can be seen the Karaite date 12 Tevet corresponds to December 10, 1844. Bearing in mind that the Russian Empire used the Julian calendar, December 10 of the Julian year must be understood to refer to December 22 in the Gregorian year (i.e. the system used universally today). If 12 Tevet was equivalent to December 22, 1844 (Gregorian) then Tevet would have begun on December 10 (Gregorian). Bearing in mind that Tevet is the tenth Hebrew month and Tishrei (in which Yom Kippur falls out) is the seventh Hebrew month it becomes clear that Yom Kippur 1844 must have been celebrated in late September and not late October. This is illustrated in the following correlation of months for months in late 1844:

September 14/15* = Tishrei 1 (Yom Kippur = September 23)
October 13/14* = Heshvan 1
November ? = Kislev 1
December 10 = Tevet 1
*The correct date for the beginning of these months, based on the predicted visibility of the New Moon, would have been September 15 and October 14 (both beginning the prior evening). However, it is possible that with some of the inaccurate calculation system used by the Karaites in the 19th century some Karaites may have observed the beginning of these months one day earlier. It would seem that according to the system of Isaac ben Solomon, which was wide-spread in the 19th century, some Karaites would have celebrated September 14th as the beginning of the month and not September 15th [this last fact has been relayed to me by Magdi Shamuel, an expert on the Karaite calendar and lunar crescent visibility]. October 13th would not have been celebrated as the beginning of the month even according to Isaac ben Solomon's system. However, further investigation is required to rule out the possibility that some Karaites would have celebrated the beginning of the month on October 13th instead of October 14th.

**The original report of Aharon ben Elijah regarding the difference of one month between the Karaite calendar in Israel and the Diaspora in 1354/1355 C.E. can be found in his book Gan Eden, Israel 1972 (written in the 14th century), p.22a

Thank you,

Nehemia Gordon
Jerusalem, Israel

Visit the KARAITE KORNER
Posted By: Alchemy

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/31/17 10:29 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
After starting this topic 11 years ago I just came across a fascinating statement in the appendix of the 1888 GC, page 681.4:
Quote:
Anciently the year did not commence in midwinter, as now, but at the first new moon after the vernal equinox. Therefore, as the period of 2300 days was begun in a year reckoned by the ancient method, it was considered necessary to conform to that method to its close. hence, 1843 was counted as ending in the spring, and not in the winter. {GC88 681.4}


Apparently by 1888 the consensus of the church and Ellen White was that the ancient correct reckoning of the Biblical New Year and therefore the timing of the Day of Atonement in 1844 was based on the first new moon after the vernal equinox not the first new moon of the barley harvest as taught by the Karaites.
(It's always important to check quotes!)
I noticed that the above quote is in the capitalized NOTES section of the great controversy. Did Ellen White, or other inspired writers write that? If not, it could still be correct, though.

But tell me if I'm wrong, the purpose of the note, when you read the context of the referenced page 328, is to solely point out that the years did not coincide with our years and therefore the calculations had to be made from spring rather than our December/January. The purpose of the note was not to determine whether calculations were made based on spring barley or spring equinox but purely that it was spring and not our year end.

Do you agree?


But you do realize, starting the year based on the equinox, is NOT found in the Bible. Starting the year based upon Barley IS found in the Bible.

Regardless of which method, you do realize that the new moon after the equinox varies by up to a month depending upon the location on the earth.

The Jewish calendar system was for the Jewish economy.


If I understand you correctly, kland, I agree with you. The point is that the Jewish year started in the spring of the year and not the winter. Consequently, I agree that we need to use that same calendar used at the beginning of the prophecy to decide its ending time.

Also, could it be that the vernal equinox is used in these last days instead of the barley harvest is because we don't know when the barley harvest would actually be?
Posted By: Alchemy

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/31/17 10:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: Elle
Nehemia Gordon from Karaites Korner send an official letter to our Church saying that our claim that the 1844 Yom Kippur date according to the Barley Harvest was on Oct 22 is FALSE. Why do we still claim that the Karaite reckoning was on Oct when we were corrected by the Karaites ?

Are you guys aware of this?


If the Kairites say we are wrong about Jesus being the Messiah should we also give up on the divinity of Jesus?

Just pointing out that there could very well be an ulterior motive to the letter other than truth by a group who denies that Jesus is the Son of God.


Excellent point Gary.

I believe we just need to take our time in understanding all these details. With the alternatives being so very wrong, I still believe we got it right. The fruits have born that out for over 150 years now.
Posted By: Elle

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/31/17 02:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: Elle
Nehemia Gordon from Karaites Korner send an official letter to our Church saying that our claim that the 1844 Yom Kippur date according to the Barley Harvest was on Oct 22 is FALSE. Why do we still claim that the Karaite reckoning was on Oct when we were corrected by the Karaites ?

Are you guys aware of this?


If the Kairites say we are wrong about Jesus being the Messiah should we also give up on the divinity of Jesus?

Just pointing out that there could very well be an ulterior motive to the letter other than truth by a group who denies that Jesus is the Son of God.

Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Excellent point Gary,
I believe we just need to take our time in understanding all these details. With the alternatives being so very wrong, I still believe we got it right.

dunno Gary had no point.

To discredit sound historical facts by basing your reason that the Karaites are Jewish [...they were wrong about Jesus being the Messiah ..could have ulterior motives] is not a sound investigative approach.

And, we SDAs, do not have "ulterior motives" to ignore the document?

BTW in case some aren't aware, Nehemiah Gordon is the official recognize guy that goes to Jerusalem with a team yearly to do the barley inspection and submits the Barley-ripeness yearly report and als the monthly sighting of the first crescent to the whole Karaite society.

He had published that article on the Karaite Korner site...and if his historical account wasn't true...then he would of had some serious ripple from the Karaite society disproving it and being removed from his position for falsifying historical data about the society he represent.

Let me requote part of Nehemia Gordon's letter:

"Clearly in the time of Shlomoh ben Efedah Hacohen (c. 1860) all Karaites everywhere had for many years been using the 19 year Rabbinic cycle. Therefore, Yom Kippur must have been celebrated by the Karaites in late September 1844 in accordance with the 19 year Rabbinic cycle and not in late October 1844. While late September may or may not have been the correct month in which to celebrate Yom Kippur (only a crop report from that year would decide that issue) it was undoubtedly the month actually observed by Karaites everywhere."

..."As can be seen, in Baschyatchi's's own time the Karaites of the Dispersion followed the Rabbinic 19 year cycle while those of Israel followed the actual appearance of the Abib and at times this caused a difference of one month in the calendar.

Nevertheless, by the 19th century the Karaites universally followed the 19 year Rabbinic cycle both in the Diaspora and in Israel. The 19th century Karaite Hacham Shlomoh ben Afedah Hacohen wrote an abridged paraphrase of Elijah Baschyatchi's Aderet Eliyahu. In his abridgement, Shlomoh Afedah paraphrases the above quoted passage but adds the following words:

"And for some time now the quest for the Abib has been abandoned even in the Land of Israel and they [the inhabitants of Israel] intercalate years using the above mentioned system [i.e. the 19 year Rabbinic cycle] like we do outside of Israel, [this is] against the legal decision of the Rav [i.e. Baschyatchi] and the Hachamim [mentioned in the above quoted passage of Aderet Eliyahu] perhaps in order to unite with all the communities and so that we will not have a disagreement between them and us in fixing the year."—From "Gefen Ha'Aderet", Shlomoh ben Afedah Hacohen, Israel 1987, pp.22-23 (written in 1860)
"
Posted By: Nadi

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/31/17 06:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Elle
dunno Gary had no point.

To discredit sound historical facts by basing your reason that the Karaites are Jewish [...they were wrong about Jesus being the Messiah ..could have ulterior motives] is not a sound investigative approach.

And, we SDAs, do not have "ulterior motives" to ignore the document?

Most excellent observation, Elle.
If someone wants people to take them and/or their position seriously, they must in turn take others and their position seriously. You don't have to agree with their position, but you must recognize that they have their reasons and evidences which, to them, are valid.

It's an aspect of legitimate scholarship.
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/31/17 08:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: Elle
Nehemia Gordon from Karaites Korner send an official letter to our Church saying that our claim that the 1844 Yom Kippur date according to the Barley Harvest was on Oct 22 is FALSE. Why do we still claim that the Karaite reckoning was on Oct when we were corrected by the Karaites ?

Are you guys aware of this?


If the Kairites say we are wrong about Jesus being the Messiah should we also give up on the divinity of Jesus?

Just pointing out that there could very well be an ulterior motive to the letter other than truth by a group who denies that Jesus is the Son of God.

Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Excellent point Gary,
I believe we just need to take our time in understanding all these details. With the alternatives being so very wrong, I still believe we got it right.

dunno Gary had no point.

To discredit sound historical facts by basing your reason that the Karaites are Jewish [...they were wrong about Jesus being the Messiah ..could have ulterior motives] is not a sound investigative approach.

And, we SDAs, do not have "ulterior motives" to ignore the document?

BTW in case some aren't aware, Nehemiah Gordon is the official recognize guy that goes to Jerusalem with a team yearly to do the barley inspection and submits the Barley-ripeness yearly report and als the monthly sighting of the first crescent to the whole Karaite society.

He had published that article on the Karaite Korner site...and if his historical account wasn't true...then he would of had some serious ripple from the Karaite society disproving it and being removed from his position for falsifying historical data about the society he represent.

Let me requote part of Nehemia Gordon's letter:

"Clearly in the time of Shlomoh ben Efedah Hacohen (c. 1860) all Karaites everywhere had for many years been using the 19 year Rabbinic cycle. Therefore, Yom Kippur must have been celebrated by the Karaites in late September 1844 in accordance with the 19 year Rabbinic cycle and not in late October 1844. While late September may or may not have been the correct month in which to celebrate Yom Kippur (only a crop report from that year would decide that issue) it was undoubtedly the month actually observed by Karaites everywhere."

..."As can be seen, in Baschyatchi's's own time the Karaites of the Dispersion followed the Rabbinic 19 year cycle while those of Israel followed the actual appearance of the Abib and at times this caused a difference of one month in the calendar.

Nevertheless, by the 19th century the Karaites universally followed the 19 year Rabbinic cycle both in the Diaspora and in Israel. The 19th century Karaite Hacham Shlomoh ben Afedah Hacohen wrote an abridged paraphrase of Elijah Baschyatchi's Aderet Eliyahu. In his abridgement, Shlomoh Afedah paraphrases the above quoted passage but adds the following words:

"And for some time now the quest for the Abib has been abandoned even in the Land of Israel and they [the inhabitants of Israel] intercalate years using the above mentioned system [i.e. the 19 year Rabbinic cycle] like we do outside of Israel, [this is] against the legal decision of the Rav [i.e. Baschyatchi] and the Hachamim [mentioned in the above quoted passage of Aderet Eliyahu] perhaps in order to unite with all the communities and so that we will not have a disagreement between them and us in fixing the year."—From "Gefen Ha'Aderet", Shlomoh ben Afedah Hacohen, Israel 1987, pp.22-23 (written in 1860)
"


Elle,

I can show you scholarship from Doctor of Divinity programs in which it is said that the Christian church cannot survive unless it becomes, basically, a socialist organization that focuses on on community activities and leaves the Bible behind. There is all kinds of quoting from sociology studies, New Testament scholars, all kinds of polls of why people have left Christianity behind, etc....

There is very little Bible involved in these theses. God is rarely mentioned, but, oh, is there scholarship. All kinds of it. And this is coming out of reputable universities who have people involved that are very influential in Christianity today. Should these ideas be accepted because they have lots of scholarship behind them and the people from which the ideas are really emanating are very influential, very educated people in the Christian community?

Does it matter that they deny the revelation God has given in His word and go to other sources? Does it matter that their faith in God is basically nonexistent and their faith in human reason reigns supreme? I am positive that Nehemia Gordon can give a well-written defense of his rejection of Jesus as the Messiah and give all kinds of scholarship as his reasoning. Should that be accepted because it is scholarship?

Now, I know you don't accept Ellen White, and that is your choice to do, but I do. I look at her writings and visions as revelation from God. When she was given visions confirming the correctness of the conclusions that the early church pioneers came to am I supposed to set aside revelation from God because someone who rejects Jesus as the Messiah says the early church pioneers were wrong? I don't think so.

This goes back to the Greek thinking of accepting rationality over revelation. I will go with revelation every time. I will reject the conclusions of rationalism every time. I have far more trust in God than I do in humanity. Humanity can be led around by the nose by the devil, and often is. That is my choice, and it is a valid choice. And since it is my choice, you cannot argue against it. Isn't that what I have seen you or Nadi say on this forum in other places?
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/31/17 08:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Alchemy
If I understand you correctly, kland, I agree with you. The point is that the Jewish year started in the spring of the year and not the winter. Consequently, I agree that we need to use that same calendar used at the beginning of the prophecy to decide its ending time.

Also, could it be that the vernal equinox is used in these last days instead of the barley harvest is because we don't know when the barley harvest would actually be?

Deciding the endtime of what prophecy?

Are you suggesting that after the end of the Jewish dispensation and the beginning of the Christian dispensation, there was a change from the Biblical calendar to a equinox calendar? Is that in the Bible?

Regarding the elimination of confusion, could you describe how the first new moon after the equinox would be realized at various parts of our round world?
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/31/17 08:45 PM

Elle, could you quote where the Adventists specifically used the Karaites calendar reckoning rather than following what the Bible says?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/01/17 03:37 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Elle, could you quote where the Adventists specifically used the Karaites calendar reckoning rather than following what the Bible says?


How if you and Dedication and those who view the Karaite method as Biblical provide the scripture in support of that view. Lord willing I will provide the scripture for the vernal equinox rule.
Posted By: APL

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/01/17 05:31 AM

Originally Posted By: mark shipowick
By the way, this year, except for Pentecost which is always on the first day of the week, the Jews are observing the feasts on the correct month and the correct day I think but could be one day too early.
Insisting the Pentecost ALWAYS occurs on the first day of the week violates the most plain description of when it is to occur. If it is always on the first day of the week, then 50 days from the 16th of Abib is not always 50 days. Deuteronomy 16:9 is clear in its description of the feast of weeks. Gesenius, in his Hebrew Lexicon, says: "Sometimes a sabbath is nearly equivalent to a week." Then he quotes verse 16, and says: "Here the seven complete sabbaths are parallel to the seven weeks of Deuteronomy 16:9." The SDABC agrees, and all the references in the Adventist Pioneer Library also agree that Pentecost can occur on any day of the week. And I just received an email from an prominent SDA theologian and linguist again confirming Pentecost can occur on any day of the week.
Posted By: Elle

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/01/17 07:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: kland
Elle, could you quote where the Adventists specifically used the Karaites calendar reckoning rather than following what the Bible says?


How if you and Dedication and those who view the Karaite method as Biblical provide the scripture in support of that view. Lord willing I will provide the scripture for the vernal equinox rule.

That wasn't what kland was asking tho; but that's what I thought you (Mark)were saying(equinox is the way) from the beginning until kland confused me!

I've been in this exact type of discussion before about 5+ yrs ago. Not here tho. Actually, the brother that was trying to prove that the vernal equinox was biblical was using as his strongest point that the COI while in the Wilderness for 40 years didn't have any barley crop to check the ripeness. Actually, it was a very good point. Something I haven't notice or considered before.

However, if you read all the passages where the Lord gave these commands(the clear instruction about bringing a ripe barley firstfruit to be waved and observing for the new moon and keeping the feasts) --- it is stated that it is for when they enter the land. If I recall that old study properly, I didn't find any text saying that they kept Pentecost or Tabernacle in the wilderness. Passover on the other hand... it wasn't so clear.

I'll let you all continue on with this study. Looking forward in reading all the texts brought forth with your points and understandings.
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
After starting this topic 11 years ago I just came across a fascinating statement in the appendix of the 1888 GC, page 681.4:
Quote:
Anciently the year did not commence in midwinter, as now, but at the first new moon after the vernal equinox. Therefore, as the period of 2300 days was begun in a year reckoned by the ancient method, it was considered necessary to conform to that method to its close. hence, 1843 was counted as ending in the spring, and not in the winter. {GC88 681.4}


Apparently by 1888 the consensus of the church and Ellen White was that the ancient correct reckoning of the Biblical New Year and therefore the timing of the Day of Atonement in 1844 was based on the first new moon after the vernal equinox not the first new moon of the barley harvest as taught by the Karaites.

Why is that important? Because in 1844 the Jews observed Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement one month too early on September 23. Since their dispersion the Jews no longer calculate their New Year by the vernal equinox rule of scripture. For us today who are waiting and watching for the fulfillment of the ancient feasts that are still unfulfilled - trumpets, tabernacles, and the modified feasts of Ezekiel's temple which are a window into future events at the restoration of the twelve tribes of spiritual Israel, it is important to understand the calendar of scripture.

?? The Catholic Church set's their easter celebration after the equinox calendar, but what I seem to recall what I've read on the Jews... The majority of them their calendar is based on calculation. And they(well most of the Jews) have been using this system since their Babylonian captivity release(690?BC), not only since 70 AD.

However, the Bible teach to determine the start of the calendar via the ripeness of the barley, not the equinox. So I don't know how you can come to conclude with such assurance that the Karaites, who uses the barley ripeness method, that their fall Feast dates was a month too early as oppose to the Adventist having it right?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/01/17 11:01 PM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: mark shipowick
By the way, this year, except for Pentecost which is always on the first day of the week, the Jews are observing the feasts on the correct month and the correct day I think but could be one day too early.
Insisting the Pentecost ALWAYS occurs on the first day of the week violates the most plain description of when it is to occur. If it is always on the first day of the week, then 50 days from the 16th of Abib is not always 50 days. Deuteronomy 16:9 is clear in its description of the feast of weeks. Gesenius, in his Hebrew Lexicon, says: "Sometimes a sabbath is nearly equivalent to a week." Then he quotes verse 16, and says: "Here the seven complete sabbaths are parallel to the seven weeks of Deuteronomy 16:9." The SDABC agrees, and all the references in the Adventist Pioneer Library also agree that Pentecost can occur on any day of the week. And I just received an email from an prominent SDA theologian and linguist again confirming Pentecost can occur on any day of the week.


APL I was going to suggest we can come back to this later after the members who are inclined to the Karaite view post but as I was looking at it just now I see the two issues are actually directly related. So very good, let's address them both because our view of one directly affects the other. Here's the text you quoted:
Quote:
Deu 16:9 Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn.
This should be read along with this one:
Quote:
Lev 23:9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
. . .
Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Lev 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
How would a simple person, let's say a fifth grader, understand this?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/01/17 11:31 PM

Is there anywhere in scripture that the Sabbath does not mean the seventh day of the week?

One reason this is a very timely topic is that we know from prophecies such as Daniel 8 and 9 that the biblical calendar was in effect about 50 days after the cross at Pentecost, it was in effect three years after the cross when the 70 weeks ended, it was in effect in 1844 on the Day of Atonement and is still in effect today. So saints, if the early rain was fulfilled on a feast day on the sacred calendar and if the Day of Atonement was etc., then it's no stretch to see that God will very likely pour out the Holy Spirit in the latter rain on an upcoming feast day - not necessarily Pentecost, but it would be unwise to rule that possibility out. One of the purposes of the sacred calendar is so that when God acts we can verify it was His act on His calendar and not a counterfeit. If we don't understand how the calendar works we could miss a divine appointment. That could be tragic.
Posted By: APL

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/02/17 02:27 AM

Originally Posted By: mark
How would a simple person, let's say a fifth grader, understand this?
How many 5th graders understand Hebrew idiom? There are many "learned" men that fail at Hebrew idiom.
Originally Posted By: mark quoting Deuteronomy 16:9 then Leviticus 23
This should be read along with this one:
Of course!! That is why I quoted Deuteronomy 16 in the first place. How many 5th graders would understand Deuteronomy the way you want to read it? Zip - none.
Originally Posted By: mark
Is there anywhere in scripture that the Sabbath does not mean the seventh day of the week?
Ah, yes. Many. Seven years were in the "Sabbath" for the land. The annual fiests were called "Sabbaths". So yes, the use of the term Sabbath does not necessarily mean the 7th-day. Pentecost (meaning 50) - is it 50 days after first fruits, the 16th of Abib, or is "about 50 days?"

Question Mark - does the month start on the same day of the week or can it vary? If it varies, then you have your answer. Consider what EGW writes:

On the fourteenth day of the month, at even, the Passover was celebrated, its solemn, impressive ceremonies commemorating the deliverance from bondage in Egypt, and pointing forward to the sacrifice that should deliver from the bondage of sin. When the Saviour yielded up His life on Calvary, the significance of the Passover ceased, and the ordinance of the Lord's Supper was instituted as a memorial of the same event of which the Passover had been a type. {PP 539.3}

The Passover was followed by the seven day's feast of unleavened bread. The first and the seventh day were days of holy convocation, when no servile work was to be performed. On the second day of the feast, the first fruits of the year's harvest were presented before God. Barley was the earliest grain in Palestine, and at the opening of the feast it was beginning to ripen. A sheaf of this grain was waved by the priest before the altar of God, as an acknowledgment that all was His. Not until this ceremony had been performed was the harvest to be gathered.
{PP 539.4}

Fifty days from the offering of first fruits, came the Pentecost, called also the feast of harvest and the feast of weeks. As an expression of gratitude for the grain prepared as food, two loaves baked with leaven were presented before God. The Pentecost occupied but one day, which was devoted to religious service.
{PP 540.1}

I see no other way to make Pentecost to always fall on the first day of the week.
Posted By: Alchemy

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/02/17 06:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Nadi
Originally Posted By: Elle
dunno Gary had no point.

To discredit sound historical facts by basing your reason that the Karaites are Jewish [...they were wrong about Jesus being the Messiah ..could have ulterior motives] is not a sound investigative approach.

And, we SDAs, do not have "ulterior motives" to ignore the document?

Most excellent observation, Elle.
If someone wants people to take them and/or their position seriously, they must in turn take others and their position seriously. You don't have to agree with their position, but you must recognize that they have their reasons and evidences which, to them, are valid.

It's an aspect of legitimate scholarship.


"Legitimate scholarship"?

The Bible says in 1 Thessalonians 5 to prove all things and hold onto what is good. That is my belief in legitimate scholarship.

So, I do allow people to define themselves. I only hold my self to what I say. But, what do we do when people have made contradicting statements about a calendar, or any other issue, over the years? There was a time when it was by the barley harvest and now it is not. I reserve the right to study for myself and draw my own conclusions.

I hope everyone else does the same thing.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/02/17 07:57 AM

shabuwa H7620 = period of seven (days, weeks, years)

Usually translated as "week".

"Seven weeks H7620 shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks H7620 from such time as you begin to put the sickle to the corn. Due. 16:9

Or -- seven periods of seven shalt thou number....

Compare Levitcus 23:11-16
with Levitcus 25:8,11

And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years....A jubilee shall that fiftieth year be unto you

The word "sabbaths" here does not refer to weekly Sabbath, but rather to a period of seven. Seven years in this case. Seven periods of seven = 49. Then on the 50th is the jubilee.

The same language is used in calculating the feast of weeks.

"And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, H7676 from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths H7676 shall be complete:"

So count seven periods of seven, in this case
seven times seven days -- 49 days, and the 50 day is the "feast of weeks".


Remember there are seven ANNUAL Sabbath days in the Jewish year, that were in addition to the regular 7th day Sabbath.
The first day of unleaven bread was one of these ceremonial sabbaths.

So basically you have
Code:
Passover                                            (Nisan) 14
Ceremonial sabbath of unleaven bread                (Nisan) 15
Day after that ceremonial sabbath -- first fruits   (Nisan) 16

now count seven times seven days and arrive at 50 days after the ceremonial sabbath of unleaven bread.

According to Alfred Edersheim, a Jew, converted to Christianity, and one of the leading authorities of his time regarding the practices of Judaism --
Originally Posted By: Edersheim in "The Temple its Ministry and Services"
The expression, "the morrow after the Sabbath' (Lev. 23:11)has sometimes been misunderstood as implying that the presentation of the so called first sheaf was to be always made on the day following the weekly Sabbath of the Passover week. This view, adopted by the Boethusians and Sadducees in the time of Christ and by the Karate Jews and certain modern interpreters, rests on a misinterpretation of the word "Sabbath". As in analogous allusions to other feasts int he same chapter, it means not the weekly Sabbath, but the day of the festival. The testimony of Josephus (Antiq 3.248-249) of Philo (Op. ii. 294) and of Jewish tradition, leaves no room to doubt that in this instance we are to understand by the Sabbath, the 15th of Nisan, on whatever day of the week it might fall. p.203-204 2002 edition


At Jesus crucifixion the ceremonial sabbath (Nisan 15) and the seventh day Sabbath fell on the same date, causing some to become confused on this issue.

A.T.Jones (an Adventist preacher in the late 1800's) makes this statement:

Quote:
I said "this sabbath," not "the Sabbath." I said "this sabbath," with a small "s," not the Sabbath, with a capital. I never use a small "s" in writing or printing the Sabbath, but always a capital "S." The whole passage reads as follows:— {January 31, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 74.9}
The word "pentecost" signifies "the fiftieth day," and was always counted, beginning with the sixteenth day of the first month. It is also called "the feast of weeks," because it was seven complete weeks from the day of the offering of the first-fruits, which was the second day of the feast of unleavened bread, the sixteenth day of the feast of unleavened bread, the sixteenth day of the first month. On the fourteenth day of the first month, all leaven was to be put away from all the houses. They were to kill the passover lamb in the evening of the fourteenth; and with it, at the beginning of the fifteenth day of the month, they were to begin to eat the unleavened bread, and the feast of unleavened bread was to continue until the twenty-second day of the month. The first day of the feast—that is, the fifteenth of the month—was to be a sabbath; no servile work was to be done in that day. Ex. 12:6-8, 15-19; Lev. 23:5-7. Because of the putting away of the leaven on the fourteenth day, and the beginning to eat the unleavened bread on the evening of that day, it is sometimes referred to as the first day of unleavened bread; but the fifteenth day was really the first, and was the one on which no servile work was to be done. {January 31, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 74.10}
On "the morrow" after this fifteenth day of the month—this sabbath—the wave-sheaf of the first-fruits was to be offered before the Lord: and with that day—the sixteenth day of the month—they were to begin to count fifty days; and when they reached the fiftieth day, that was Pentecost. {January 31, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 74.11}
Posted By: dedication

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/02/17 08:19 AM

When you see the precise way the pioneer Adventists studied things out -- we see they not only studied history,they also studied scripture and based whatever historical process they followed in their calculations on what scripture showed to be correct.

The original way the Karaities calculated the beginning of each new year was according to the Bible, while the rabbinical method (which many of the Karaities had also accepted because it was more convenient) was not according to the Bible.

The Millerite Adventists in determining October 22, 1844 based their calculations on the Biblical (also the original Karaite) method of calculating.

Likewise when speaking of penticost, they did not follow the Karaite who had, on this point left the Biblical original Jewish method.

All the Jewish festivals were based on calendar dates, NOT on the same week day every year, just as your birthdate is based on a calendar date and not on the same week day every year.
This is true of the "Feast of Weeks" as well.

In contrast -- the weekly Sabbath is always on "the seventh day" which is now called Saturday in the English language, and lies between Friday the preparation day, and Sunday which many celebrate as resurrection day.



Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/02/17 04:35 PM

Quote:
On the second day of the feast, the first fruits of the year's harvest were presented before God. Barley was the earliest grain in Palestine, and at the opening of the feast it was beginning to ripen. A sheaf of this grain was waved by the priest before the altar of God, as an acknowledgment that all was His. Not until this ceremony had been performed was the harvest to be gathered. {PP 539.4}


This quote does support your position. It appears to disagree with Lev 23 because the seven Sabbaths are not feasts so appear to be actual Sabbaths. According to the quote they would have to be only seven day periods. Maybe I'm wrong re Pentecost. I'll give it more thought. Thanks for that quote!
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/02/17 11:28 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
shabuwa H7620 = period of seven (days, weeks, years)

Usually translated as "week".

"Seven weeks H7620 shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks H7620 from such time as you begin to put the sickle to the corn. Due. 16:9

Or -- seven periods of seven shalt thou number....

Compare Levitcus 23:11-16
with Levitcus 25:8,11

And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years....A jubilee shall that fiftieth year be unto you

The word "sabbaths" here does not refer to weekly Sabbath, but rather to a period of seven. Seven years in this case. Seven periods of seven = 49. Then on the 50th is the jubilee.

The same language is used in calculating the feast of weeks.

"And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, H7676 from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths H7676 shall be complete:"

So count seven periods of seven, in this case
seven times seven days -- 49 days, and the 50 day is the "feast of weeks".


Remember there are seven ANNUAL Sabbath days in the Jewish year, that were in addition to the regular 7th day Sabbath.
The first day of unleaven bread was one of these ceremonial sabbaths.

So basically you have
Code:
Passover                                            (Nisan) 14
Ceremonial sabbath of unleaven bread                (Nisan) 15
Day after that ceremonial sabbath -- first fruits   (Nisan) 16

now count seven times seven days and arrive at 50 days after the ceremonial sabbath of unleaven bread.

According to Alfred Edersheim, a Jew, converted to Christianity, and one of the leading authorities of his time regarding the practices of Judaism --
Originally Posted By: Edersheim in "The Temple its Ministry and Services"
The expression, "the morrow after the Sabbath' (Lev. 23:11)has sometimes been misunderstood as implying that the presentation of the so called first sheaf was to be always made on the day following the weekly Sabbath of the Passover week. This view, adopted by the Boethusians and Sadducees in the time of Christ and by the Karate Jews and certain modern interpreters, rests on a misinterpretation of the word "Sabbath". As in analogous allusions to other feasts int he same chapter, it means not the weekly Sabbath, but the day of the festival. The testimony of Josephus (Antiq 3.248-249) of Philo (Op. ii. 294) and of Jewish tradition, leaves no room to doubt that in this instance we are to understand by the Sabbath, the 15th of Nisan, on whatever day of the week it might fall. p.203-204 2002 edition


At Jesus crucifixion the ceremonial sabbath (Nisan 15) and the seventh day Sabbath fell on the same date, causing some to become confused on this issue.

A.T.Jones (an Adventist preacher in the late 1800's) makes this statement:

Quote:
I said "this sabbath," not "the Sabbath." I said "this sabbath," with a small "s," not the Sabbath, with a capital. I never use a small "s" in writing or printing the Sabbath, but always a capital "S." The whole passage reads as follows:— {January 31, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 74.9}
The word "pentecost" signifies "the fiftieth day," and was always counted, beginning with the sixteenth day of the first month. It is also called "the feast of weeks," because it was seven complete weeks from the day of the offering of the first-fruits, which was the second day of the feast of unleavened bread, the sixteenth day of the feast of unleavened bread, the sixteenth day of the first month. On the fourteenth day of the first month, all leaven was to be put away from all the houses. They were to kill the passover lamb in the evening of the fourteenth; and with it, at the beginning of the fifteenth day of the month, they were to begin to eat the unleavened bread, and the feast of unleavened bread was to continue until the twenty-second day of the month. The first day of the feast—that is, the fifteenth of the month—was to be a sabbath; no servile work was to be done in that day. Ex. 12:6-8, 15-19; Lev. 23:5-7. Because of the putting away of the leaven on the fourteenth day, and the beginning to eat the unleavened bread on the evening of that day, it is sometimes referred to as the first day of unleavened bread; but the fifteenth day was really the first, and was the one on which no servile work was to be done. {January 31, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 74.10}
On "the morrow" after this fifteenth day of the month—this sabbath—the wave-sheaf of the first-fruits was to be offered before the Lord: and with that day—the sixteenth day of the month—they were to begin to count fifty days; and when they reached the fiftieth day, that was Pentecost. {January 31, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 74.11}
Good summary. It seems clear I'm wrong on this. Thank you Dedication.

Regarding the Karaite method of reckoning the year, let's look at scripture, the SOP and the authorities. I have Edersheim's book which I've used it as a reference for several years. He is a leading authority. If you could do a summary like you did above Dedication citing scripture, the SOP and Edersheim I'd be grateful.
Posted By: APL

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/02/17 11:34 PM

Originally Posted By: mark
This quote does support your position. It appears to disagree with Lev 23 because the seven Sabbaths are not feasts so appear to be actual Sabbaths. According to the quote they would have to be only seven day periods. Maybe I'm wrong re Pentecost. I'll give it more thought. Thanks for that quote!
How does the quote disagree? Does Leviticus 23 agree with Deuteronomy 16? What does the idiom "seven Sabbaths COMPLETE" mean? Does it mean that it starts on the first day of the week? If so, where does it say that?

Luke 18:12 'I fastG3522 twiceG1364 a week;G4521 I payG586a tithesG586a of allG3956 that I get.'G2932

The word translated "week" is G4521 - Sabbaton

Matthew 28:1 NowG1161 afterG3796 the Sabbath,G4521 as it began to dawnG2020 towardG1519 the firstG1520 day of the week,G4521 MaryG3137 MagdaleneG3094 and the otherG243 MaryG3137 cameG2064 to lookG2334 at the grave.G5028

This verse has G4521 translated both Sabbath and week. So yes, in the NT, sabbath can been week or the 7th-day, you need the context to understand. Here are a few more

Mark 16:2 VeryG3029 earlyG4404 on the firstG1520 day of the week,G4521 they *cameG2064 to the tombG3418 when the sunG2246 had risen.G393

Luke 24:1 But on the firstG1520 day of the week,G4521 at earlyG3722 dawn,G3722 they cameG2064 to the tombG3418 bringingG5342 the spicesG759 whichG3739 they had prepared.G2090

John 20:1 NowG1161 on the firstG1520 day of the weekG4521 MaryG3137 MagdaleneG3094 *cameG2064 earlyG4404 to the tomb,G3419 while it *was stillG2089 dark,G4653 and *sawG991 the stoneG3037 already takenG142 awayG142 from the tomb.G3419

John 20:19 SoG3767 when it was eveningG3798 on that day,G2250 the firstG1520 day of the week,G4521 and when the doorsG2374 were shutG2808 whereG3699 the disciplesG3101 were, for fearG5401 of the Jews,G2453 JesusG2424 cameG2064 and stoodG2476 in their midstG3319 and *saidG3004 to them, "PeaceG1515 be with you."

Acts 20:7 On the firstG1520 day of the week,G4521 when we were gatheredG4863 togetherG4863 to breakG2806 bread,G740 PaulG3972 began talkingG1256 to them, intendingG3195 to leaveG1826 the nextG1887 day,G1887 and he prolongedG3905 his messageG3056 untilG3360 midnight.G3317

1 Corinthians 16:2 On the firstG1520 day of everyG2596 weekG4521 eachG1538 oneG1538 of you is to putG5087 asideG3844 G1438 and save,G2343 as he may prosper,G2137 soG2443 that noG3361 collectionsG3048 be madeG1096 whenG3752 I come.G2064

- Transliteration: Sabbaton

- Phonetic: sab'-bat-on

- Definition:

1. the seventh day of each week which is a sacred rest on which the whole world is required to abstain from all secular work
- a. the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
- b. a single sabbath, sabbath day
2. seven days, a week

- Origin: of hebrew origin H7676

- TDNT entry: 07:02,0

- Part(s) of speech: Noun Neuter

- Strong's: Of hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is Shabbath) or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight that is the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - sabbath (day) week.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/03/17 02:21 AM

Dedication, I can save you the trouble of reviewing Edersheim on this. He follows the modern rabbinical reckoning, the 19 year cycle and we agree that's incorrect.

There is ancient authority that before their dispersion the Jews followed an eight year cycle rather than a 19 year and that they maintained an accurate seasonal alignment by occasionally reducing one month by a day. But I'll wait to read your material before saying more.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/03/17 02:32 AM

Re: week and Sabbath, I agree APL. Good work.
Posted By: Alchemy

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/03/17 01:40 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
If I understand you correctly, kland, I agree with you. The point is that the Jewish year started in the spring of the year and not the winter. Consequently, I agree that we need to use that same calendar used at the beginning of the prophecy to decide its ending time.

Also, could it be that the vernal equinox is used in these last days instead of the barley harvest is because we don't know when the barley harvest would actually be?

Deciding the endtime of what prophecy?

Are you suggesting that after the end of the Jewish dispensation and the beginning of the Christian dispensation, there was a change from the Biblical calendar to a equinox calendar? Is that in the Bible?

Regarding the elimination of confusion, could you describe how the first new moon after the equinox would be realized at various parts of our round world?


As normal kland, I obviously misunderstood you again.

But, as far as any possible change in any calendar, I was asking you a question. And as normal, you answer questions with questions.

I would like to see you answer to your own question.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/04/17 02:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
This should be read along with this one:
Quote:
Lev 23:9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
. . .
Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Lev 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
How would a simple person, let's say a fifth grader, understand this?
Yes, that's one I had in mind.

The new moon after the equinox could vary up to a month. If the sheaf (And yes, it doesn't explicitly say "Barley"), is to be waved, then what do they do when it's just not there? Or what do they do when the grain was almost ripe a month ago, can they not harvest their grain till a month later? That instruction specifically revolves around offering a wave sheath. It is part of the feast ceremony. Without the sheaf, it would be.

Then there's the inductive way of when the plagues of Egypt hit and Ex 9:31 And the flax and the barley was smitten: for the barley was in the ear, and the flax was bolled., followed by the this being the beginning of months for you. Not so strong, but the flax and barley was in the ear, and when coupled with the wording of the actual statute given with presenting a sheaf for the wave offering, there seems pretty strong evidence.

I'm anxious to hear support for the equinox from the Bible. No one has been able to do that. Maybe you can show that it's the spring equinox which starts the year.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/04/17 02:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Elle
I've been in this exact type of discussion before about 5+ yrs ago. Not here tho. Actually, the brother that was trying to prove that the vernal equinox was biblical was using as his strongest point that the COI while in the Wilderness for 40 years didn't have any barley crop to check the ripeness. Actually, it was a very good point. Something I haven't notice or considered before.
Elle, have you considered how the Israelites in the wilderness could determine the equinox? You've only changed the problem, not eliminated it. If you can show me how to determine the equinox within a day, in the wilderness, in areas where they have not been before, I would be most interested.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/04/17 02:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
If I understand you correctly, kland, I agree with you. The point is that the Jewish year started in the spring of the year and not the winter. Consequently, I agree that we need to use that same calendar used at the beginning of the prophecy to decide its ending time.

Also, could it be that the vernal equinox is used in these last days instead of the barley harvest is because we don't know when the barley harvest would actually be?

Deciding the endtime of what prophecy?

Are you suggesting that after the end of the Jewish dispensation and the beginning of the Christian dispensation, there was a change from the Biblical calendar to a equinox calendar? Is that in the Bible?

Regarding the elimination of confusion, could you describe how the first new moon after the equinox would be realized at various parts of our round world?


As normal kland, I obviously misunderstood you again.

But, as far as any possible change in any calendar, I was asking you a question. And as normal, you answer questions with questions.

I would like to see you answer to your own question.

You said a prophecy ending time is related to determining the beginning of the year. I merely asked what prophecy you are talking about. So I cannot answer your question because I know of no such prophecy nor how the beginning of the year relates to the end times. You'll have to expound upon that.

As far as whatever prophecy you had in mind relating to the equinox determining its ending point, I asked how can that be when different parts of the world would be different. Should we look to Old Jerusalem?
Posted By: Alchemy

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/05/17 10:34 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
When you see the precise way the pioneer Adventists studied things out -- we see they not only studied history,they also studied scripture and based whatever historical process they followed in their calculations on what scripture showed to be correct.

The original way the Karaities calculated the beginning of each new year was according to the Bible, while the rabbinical method (which many of the Karaities had also accepted because it was more convenient) was not according to the Bible.

The Millerite Adventists in determining October 22, 1844 based their calculations on the Biblical (also the original Karaite) method of calculating.

Likewise when speaking of penticost, they did not follow the Karaite who had, on this point left the Biblical original Jewish method.

All the Jewish festivals were based on calendar dates, NOT on the same week day every year, just as your birthdate is based on a calendar date and not on the same week day every year.
This is true of the "Feast of Weeks" as well.

In contrast -- the weekly Sabbath is always on "the seventh day" which is now called Saturday in the English language, and lies between Friday the preparation day, and Sunday which many celebrate as resurrection day.





Blessings dedication. I have noticed that these ceremonial laws were symbolic and even prophetic in nature. Such as we are living in the genuine "Day of Atonement" at this time.

I have also noticed a lot of attempts to demonstrate the prophetic significance of many of these ceremonial practices that don't line up well, at least as they are explained.

Do you have any real handle on where this prophetic application of the ceremonial law stops? Or are we waiting for more light from God?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/09/17 12:28 AM

I may have to backtrack on my concession regarding the timing or first day of the Feast of Weeks/Firstfruits. Today I was reminded that the reason I originally concluded that the counting to Pentecost appears to always start on a Sunday is that Christ was resurrected on Sunday and presented Himself to the Father in fulfillment of the Feast of Firstfruits. That Pentecost occurred on the first day of the week is another evidence. So the problem with the modern rabbinical rule of making Firstfruits the second day of Unleavened Bread which can be any day of the week is this: That rule doesn't work for the crucifixion. At the crucifixion, the Passover was Thursday evening, the first day of Unleavened Bread was Friday so under the modern rabbinical reckoning the Feast of First Fruits would be the second day of Unleavened Bread, the Sabbath. But at the crucifixion Christ rose on the third day of Unleavened Bread as the First Fruits of them that slept. I Cor 15:20.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/09/17 12:35 AM

So my question is can we reconcile the "second day of Unleavened Bread" rule with the crucifixion? Again, at the crucifixion the second day of Unleavened Bread was the Sabbath. Can we make a scriptural case that at the crucifixion the Firstfruits was fulfilled on the seventh day, the Sabbath? That seems to be a difficult position to maintain. Can the dead Christ be the Firstfruit offering? Don't the inspired sources all agree that Christ is the living sacrifice? and that like Him we are to present ourselves as living sacrifices. But if we say that at the crucifixion the Firstfruits fell on the second day of Unleavened Bread, the Sabbath, then we would have to also hold that Pentecost occurred on the Sabbath wouldn't we?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/09/17 12:52 AM

Christ's command to Mary to not detain him because he had not yet ascended to the Father is a further evidence that he presented himself to the Father immediately after his resurrection as the Firstfruits on the day of his resurrection, Sunday, the third day of Unleavened Bread apparently.
Posted By: APL

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/09/17 02:31 AM

Mark, on which day was the Passover lamb sacrifice? 2 days later was the day of First Fruits. Who was the Passover Lamb? When was he sacrificed? An interesting question to ask is why did Christ eat the Passover on Thursday the day before the real sacrifice?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/09/17 04:02 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Mark, on which day was the Passover lamb sacrifice?

Thursday.
Quote:
2 days later was the day of First Fruits. Who was the Passover Lamb? When was he sacrificed?
The crucifixion was on Friday.
Quote:
An interesting question to ask is why did Christ eat the Passover on Thursday the day before the real sacrifice?
He ate it Thursday evening which is the beginning of the sixth day, Friday. So as Ellen White says, Christ was sacrificed on the day the Passover was eaten, Friday.

When was the first day of Unleavened Bread at the crucifixion APL? Wasn't it Friday? If it was Sabbath rather than Friday then it works. But that would mean that either Thursday was not the Passover, it was actually Friday or that there is a one day gap between the Passover on Thursday and the start of Unleavened Bread on Sabbath.
Posted By: APL

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/09/17 06:56 AM

On what day was Christ crucified? Friday, the 14th day of the month that year. The Wave Sheaf was presented 2 days later, on the first day of the week the year Christ was crucified. Ellen White tells us that Christ was crucified on the very day the type pointed to, and that was Friday that year. 2 days later, Christ was presented as the wave sheaf. When Christ died, the lamb that was to represent Christ our Passover was brought into the temple. When Christ said, "it is finished," the veil was torn in half, and the priest, trembling dropped the knife, and the lamb escaped. Read it in her words:

On the fourteenth day of the month, at even, the Passover was celebrated, its solemn, impressive ceremonies commemorating the deliverance from bondage in Egypt, and pointing forward to the sacrifice that should deliver from the bondage of sin. When the Saviour yielded up His life on Calvary, the significance of the Passover ceased, and the ordinance of the Lord's Supper was instituted as a memorial of the same event of which the Passover had been a type. {PP 539.3}

The Passover was followed by the seven day's feast of unleavened bread. The first and the seventh day were days of holy convocation, when no servile work was to be performed.
On the second day of the feast, the first fruits of the year's harvest were presented before God. Barley was the earliest grain in Palestine, and at the opening of the feast it was beginning to ripen. A sheaf of this grain was waved by the priest before the altar of God, as an acknowledgment that all was His. Not until this ceremony had been performed was the harvest to be gathered. {PP 539.4}

Fifty days from the offering of first fruits, came the Pentecost, called also the feast of harvest and the feast of weeks. {PP 540.1}

---

The slaying of the Passover lamb was a shadow of the death of Christ. Says Paul: "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us."
1 Corinthians 5:7. The sheaf of first fruits, which at the time of the Passover was waved before the Lord, was typical of the resurrection of Christ. Paul says, in speaking of the resurrection of the Lord and of all His people: "Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." 1 Corinthians 15:23. Like the wave sheaf, which was the first ripe grain gathered before the harvest, Christ is the first fruits of that immortal harvest of redeemed ones that at the future resurrection shall be gathered into the garner of God. {GC 399.2}

These types were fulfilled, not only as to the event, but as to the time. On the fourteenth day of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which for fifteen long centuries the Passover lamb had been slain, Christ, having eaten the Passover with His disciples, instituted that feast which was to commemorate His own death as "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." That same night He was taken by wicked hands to be crucified and slain. And as the antitype of the wave sheaf our Lord was raised from the dead on the third day, "the first fruits of them that slept," a sample of all the resurrected just, whose "vile body" shall be changed, and "fashioned like unto His glorious body."
Philippians 3:21. {GC 399.3}

---

When the loud cry, "It is finished," came from the lips of Christ, the priests were officiating in the temple. It was the hour of the evening sacrifice. The lamb representing Christ had been brought to be slain. Clothed in his significant and beautiful dress, the priest stood with lifted knife, as did Abraham when he was about to slay his son. With intense interest the people were looking on. But the earth trembles and quakes; for the Lord Himself draws near. With a rending noise the inner veil of the temple is torn from top to bottom by an unseen hand, throwing open to the gaze of the multitude a place once filled with the presence of God. In this place the Shekinah had dwelt. Here God had manifested His glory above the mercy seat. No one but the high priest ever lifted the veil separating this apartment from the rest of the temple. He entered in once a year to make an atonement for the sins of the people. But lo, this veil is rent in twain. The most holy place of the earthly sanctuary is no longer sacred. {DA 756.5}

All is terror and confusion. The priest is about to slay the victim; but the knife drops from his nerveless hand, and the lamb escapes. Type has met antitype in the death of God's Son. The great sacrifice has been made. The way into the holiest is laid open. A new and living way is prepared for all. No longer need sinful, sorrowing humanity await the coming of the high priest. Henceforth the Saviour was to officiate as priest and advocate in the heaven of heavens. It was as if a living voice had spoken to the worshipers: There is now an end to all sacrifices and offerings for sin. The Son of God is come according to His word, "Lo, I come (in the volume of the Book it is written of Me,) to do Thy will, O God." "By His own blood" He entereth "in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."
Hebrews 10:7; 9:12. {DA 757.1}

Christ ate the Passover meal with his disciples, the night before His crucifixion. But it is clear from EGW that the Passover lamb had not yet been crucified as it escaped in the confusion... Passover Sabbath was also the 7th-day Sabbath, a High Sabbath.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/09/17 06:25 PM

APL this next question I'm going to ask is not to argue but to help me understand your line of reasoning. I'll welcome any solution that solves the issue such as Friday being the 14th. That sounds good to me if it is factual. My question is: How can Friday be the 14th day of the month if Christ ate the Passover the day before? Basically what you seem to be saying (but my question is to verify whether I'm understanding you) that the Passover is actually observed at the start rather than the end of the 14th at evening. I'm not saying that's impossible, but can you give something tangible from scripture that would support that view. And can that be reconciled with the rest of Lev 23?

For example my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the week of Unleavened Bread was also called the Passover week. The first day of Unleavened Bread was the first day of the Passover, the 15th. The Passover lambs slain in the temple on the afternoon of the 14th (or the 13th, if you are correct) were provided by heads of families and part of the evening Passover feast eaten throughout Jerusalem. The Lamb slain on Friday was part of the corporate Passover offering set out in Numbers 28:19-24 for the first day of Passover.

So one of the issues with your view is that if the 14th is Friday, there would be no corporate Passover lamb as specified in Numbers 28 because that offering wasn't made until the 15th. . . . Unless maybe you count the daily evening sacrifice as the Passover lamb on that day.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/09/17 10:28 PM

Quote:
Exo 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. Exo 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
Can the Friday Passover be harmonized with this text? Maybe. In that case the Israelists would have slain the lamb at the start of the 14th day rather than at the end of it and eaten it during the first part of the 14th rather than the 15th. That sounds feasible. Edersheim if I remember right says that's not possible because the law required that all sacrifices were to be slain between sunrise and sunset. But that's not stated directly in the law. What is stated is that all national corporate offerings have to be made between the morning and evening sacrifices. But the Passover is not a corporate sacrifice. Instead it was the sacrifice of individual families so it is possible this could be offered after the evening sacrifice or it could be (and this is more likely imo) that the corporate daily offering was made at night after the Passover lambs of families were offered.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/10/17 01:35 AM

The more I look at this the more I'm inclined to think Passover actually does start at the beginning of the 14th at evening rather than at the end. If the modern Jews are right in eating the Passover after the start of the 15th then the angel actually passed over the blood sprinkled homes of the Israelites on the 15th. That would seem to contradict the name of the feast because it seems clear that the actual act of the angel passing over and sparing Israel's firstborn should be on the day it was celebrated, the 14th.
Posted By: APL

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/10/17 07:15 AM

Originally Posted By: mark
APL this next question I'm going to ask is not to argue but to help me understand your line of reasoning. I'll welcome any solution that solves the issue such as Friday being the 14th. That sounds good to me if it is factual. My question is: How can Friday be the 14th day of the month if Christ ate the Passover the day before?
First - do not get the days of the month confused. I did NOT say that Christ ate the Passover with His disciples on the 13th. I said, the night before His crucifixion, which was indeed the 14th. Evening and Morning are the days. Christ was crucified on the 14th at 9AM and died at 3PM. In the type, when was the lamb to be EATEN? Not before it was sacrificed. The lamb was sacrificed on the 14th, and eaten at even, that is on the start of the 15th. This is the first day of unleavened bread, all sin was removed. The next day, the 16th of Nisan, is the Wave Sheaf, and 50 days later would be Pentecost. The first day of unleavened bread could only start after all leaven, sin, was removed. All sin was finally removed on the 14th.

Follow the type all the way through and it makes sense. All leaven (sin) was to be put away out of the house before angel passed through the land, correct? When did the angel pass through the land, on the 14th or 15th? When Christ ate the Passover, was there a lamb eaten at that meal? We are not told there was. And why was there no lamb? All sin was to be put away and sent out before the angel passed over the land of Egypt. Judas represented in type sin and immediately after dipping his bread in the bowl with Jesus, he went out away from Christ and killed himself before noon (on Friday), the 14th of Nisan, demonstrating the getting rid of sin. Christ told His disciples that he desired to eat it before He suffered, and that meal instituted the Lord's Supper, and Christ who IS our Passover Lamb was with out sin.

The Old and New covenant also are demonstrated. In the Old, the removal of sin was done by the people for they promised to do it, but they could not. In the New, sin is removed by God and like Judas, sin cannot remain in the presence of God. But I digress.

I think I can get you a link to an very interesting talk recently given on the 13th, 14th, and 15th, if you are interested.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/10/17 12:00 PM

So the Passover was Friday in your view which means as you say that if the Passover meal was celebrated at the end of the 14th then Christ ate the meal on the 14th but the Passover lamb and the rest of the Jews actually ate it on the 15th, our Friday evening.
Quote:
Follow the type all the way through and it makes sense. All leaven (sin) was to be put away out of the house before angel passed through the land, correct? When did the angel pass through the land, on the 14th or 15th?

The name Passover is given to the 14th so I'd say it's a good fit, the 14th but I haven't ruled out the 15th because today I was looking at the law of Unleavened Bread and it runs from the 15th to the 21st at evening, and in that case it seems clear that the evening of the 21st is the end of the day.
Quote:
When Christ ate the Passover, was there a lamb eaten at that meal? We are not told there was. And why was there no lamb?

We are not told whether there was a lamb or not. That there was a lamb is strongly implied because Christ said he was eating the Passover with his disciples and the central item in the Passover meal was the Lamb.
Quote:
All sin was to be put away and sent out before the angel passed over the land of Egypt. Judas represented in type sin and immediately after dipping his bread in the bowl with Jesus, he went out away from Christ and killed himself before noon (on Friday), the 14th of Nisan, demonstrating the getting rid of sin.

It is a fact that the Passover Bread is unleavened, but the law that leaven was to be removed applies to the first day of Unleavened Bread and the following six days. See below. In the type, it is the Passover that comes first showing that leaven is removed by the sacrifice:
Quote:
Exo 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
Exo 12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.


Notice carefully, it was lawful to eat leavened bread on the day of the 14th up to the sacrifice and feast.

If you have the link handy I'll have a look.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/10/17 12:26 PM

Another thing: If Christ was sacrificed on the day the Passover was eaten as it says in the SOP, and if you place the Passover on Friday evening (the first part of the Sabbath day), then her statement is false. In that case the meal would have been eaten by the Jews on Sabbath evening, the day following Christ's sacrifice.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/10/17 12:53 PM

If Passover was Friday, then the lamb would have been eaten on Thursday night. Friday night is part of the Sabbath, not Friday. I think Ellen White's statements agree with this.
Posted By: APL

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/10/17 04:35 PM

Did the feast begin on the 14th of the month or the 15th?

The use of unleavened bread also was significant. It was expressly enjoined in the law of the Passover, and as strictly observed by the Jews in their practice, that no leaven should be found in their houses during the feast. In like manner the leaven of sin must be put away from all who would receive life and nourishment from Christ.
{PP 278.1}

Therefore, all leaven must be put out of the house by the end of which day? The 14th because the feast would begin at sunset and all leaven had to be out of the house (a type also of the close of probation), and in the year of Christ's crucifixion, the first day of the feast was also the 7th-day sabbath. When was the lamb to be sacrificed? On the 14th at the close of the day. The 14th was the preparation day for the celebration of the Passover, and in the year Christ died, also or the weekly Sabbath.

That was a never-to-be-forgotten Sabbath to the sorrowing disciples, and also to the priests, rulers, scribes, and people. At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands, and lay in Joseph's tomb.
{DA 774.2}
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/10/17 04:36 PM

These types were fulfilled, not only as to the event, but as to the time. On the fourteenth day of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which for fifteen long centuries the Passover lamb had been slain, Christ, having eaten the Passover with His disciples, instituted that feast which was to commemorate His own death as "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." That same night He was taken by wicked hands to be crucified and slain. And as the antitype of the wave sheaf our Lord was raised from the dead on the third day, "the first fruits of them that slept," a sample of all the resurrected just, whose "vile body" shall be changed, and "fashioned like unto His glorious body." Verse 20; Philippians 3:21. {GC 399.3}

Mark, what am I missing here?
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/10/17 04:52 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
This should be read along with this one:
Quote:
Lev 23:9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
. . .
Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Lev 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
How would a simple person, let's say a fifth grader, understand this?
Yes, that's one I had in mind.

The new moon after the equinox could vary up to a month. If the sheaf (And yes, it doesn't explicitly say "Barley"), is to be waved, then what do they do when it's just not there? Or what do they do when the grain was almost ripe a month ago, can they not harvest their grain till a month later? That instruction specifically revolves around offering a wave sheath. It is part of the feast ceremony. Without the sheaf, it would be.

Then there's the inductive way of when the plagues of Egypt hit and Ex 9:31 And the flax and the barley was smitten: for the barley was in the ear, and the flax was bolled., followed by the this being the beginning of months for you. Not so strong, but the flax and barley was in the ear, and when coupled with the wording of the actual statute given with presenting a sheaf for the wave offering, there seems pretty strong evidence.

I'm anxious to hear support for the equinox from the Bible. No one has been able to do that. Maybe you can show that it's the spring equinox which starts the year.
Mark, here's another I had come across before reading it from APL:
Deu 16:9 Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn.

Nothing about equinox.
Everything about grain harvest.

What sheaf would be offered as part of the wave offering if the grain is a month late?

How can bread be offered for the feast of weeks if it's a month late?

In your area, can the wave sheaf be offered now? Not here.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/10/17 07:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
If Passover was Friday, then the lamb would have been eaten on Thursday night. Friday night is part of the Sabbath, not Friday. I think Ellen White's statements agree with this.

How do you figure that GC? What day of the month are you saying Thursday of the crucifixion week was - the 13th?

For the last 48 hours I've been considering the possibility that the Passover was kept anciently at the start of the 14th day rather than at the end but I don't think so. The modern Jews have the timing right I think so far as the time of day is concerned and the day of the month. But they may be a day early in calculating the start of the month sometimes.
Posted By: APL

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/10/17 11:40 PM

It is an interesting observation that today is Nisan 14, for 2017. Tomorrow would be Nisan 15, the ceremonial Sabbath, and Wednesday of this week, the Wave Sheaf would be presented. Pentecost would be 50 days later.

I believe this calendar has it right.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/11/17 02:26 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
All leaven must be put out of the house by the end of which day? The 14th because the feast would begin at sunset and all leaven had to be out of the house (a type also of the close of probation), and in the year of Christ's crucifixion, the first day of the feast was also the 7th-day sabbath.


I agree that leaven was put out of the house by the end of the 14th and the Passover lamb was slain on the afternoon of the 14th.

The Passover meal was eaten by Christ and the disciples that evening, the first day of Unleavened Bread, the 15th.

Quote:
Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?


So I'm persuaded that the Passover lamb was slain on the afternoon of Thursday the 14th, that our Savior ate the meal that evening after sundown on the 15th, was crucified the 15th, rested on the Sabbath on the 16th and rose from the grave on the 17th. That appears to agree best with scripture. The only problem I can see with that APL is Ellen White's statement in DA and PP that you quoted which are identical in thought. These appear to conflict with that but her other statements support it so it's our job to retain all the inspired statements and seek for the underlying harmony.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/11/17 09:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

Quote:
Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

So I'm persuaded that the Passover lamb was slain on the afternoon of Thursday the 14th, that our Savior ate the meal that evening after sundown on the 15th, was crucified the 15th, rested on the Sabbath on the 16th and rose from the grave on the 17th. That appears to agree best with scripture. The only problem I can see with that APL is Ellen White's statement in DA and PP that you quoted which are identical in thought. These appear to conflict with that but her other statements support it so it's our job to retain all the inspired statements and seek for the underlying harmony.


Granted -- this topic has been debated by scholars and theologians for centuries. Even scripture does not seem to agree on this matter which has perpetuated this debate.

Yet I do think an anchor point is this:
Christ was slain at the time the Passover Lamb was to be slain.
Which was in the afternoon of Nisan 14th.


Starting at that anchor point I can't agree with your above summary --
rather I believe --

Christ celebrated the Last Supper the eve of Nisan 14th (Thursday)
Christ died on Friday afternoon (Nisan 14th) the very time the Passover Lamb was slain.
He rested in the tomb Saturday, which was a high Sabbath being the 7th day Sabbath as well as the Sabbath of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15th)
He rose Sunday (Nisan 16th)

The gospel of John indicates that Jewish Passover Supper came after Christ's death. That Christ died on the preparation day for the Passover (which is the time the Passover Lamb was slain)

John 13:1 Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come....
13:2 And supper being ended...
13:4 He rose from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel
13:5 After he poured water into a basin, he began to wash the disciples' feet


Later concerning Judas leaving:

13:29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.

Those texts seem to indicate that this supper was eaten before Passover. That they still needed some things for the actual feast. The rest of the disciples thought Jesus sent Judas out to buy some groceries or something.

That is another clue -- if this were Passover night the 15th, all stores would have been closed, why would the disciples think Judas was sent to buy something?

John 18:28 states that the Jewish accusers of Jesus “did not enter the praetorium, so that they might not be defiled, but might eat the Passover” (RSV).

So these accusers had not eaten the Passover yet, when Jesus was being tried before Pilae. They refused to enter the building because it would defile them and they wouldn't be able to the Passover.

Furthermore, John 19:14-18 places Christ's trial before Pilate before Passover.

Now it was the Preparation of the passover: it was about the sixth hour. And he saith unto the Jews, “Behold, your King!” They therefore cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate saith unto them, “Shall I crucify your King?”


In conclusion, then, the first three gospels seem to present the picture that the Last Supper was the Passover meal, whereas John's gospel gives the idea that the Passover was not celebrated by the Jews until after Jesus’ death.

So we don't just have to harmonize EGW's statements, the scriptures themself present the same dilemma.


Interestingly,in the Talmud, early Jewish rabbis concluded that Jesus was “hanged on Passover Eve for heresy and misleading the people” (Bruce, 1960, p. 101).

The editors of the Pulpit Commentary wrote: “It appears that our Lord was crucified on the 14th of Nisan, on the very day of the sacrifice of the Paschal Lamb, a few hours before the time of the Paschal Supper, and that his own Last Supper was eaten the night before, that is, twenty-four hours before the general time of eating the Passover Supper” (Spence and Exell, n.d., pp. 196-197, emp. in orig.).

Some have suggested (like the Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia) that the Galileans and/or the Pharisees ate the Passover on Thursday night (Nisan 14) and the Judeans and/or the Sadducees ate the Passover on Friday night. Hence, Jesus and His disciples were among those who ate the Passover on Thursday. Since a great number of people would be eating the Passover on Thursday evening, the priests would accommodate them (as in other years) with an earlier Passover sacrifice.

However-- no matter how it is explained,
I believe Christ, as the Lamb of God, as the fulfillment of the type, died at the very time when the symbolic Passover Lamb was to be slain.
Posted By: APL

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/11/17 10:47 AM

In the year of Christ's crucifixion, the 14th was Friday (our Thursday night Friday day). Christ was crucified on Friday (9AM to 3PM). He rested in the grave on the 15th, and rose on the 16th. This is all consistent with EGW and the Bible. Yes, Jesus ate the meal with His disciples on the 14th, Thursday evening, before He was crucified later on the 14th. The Feast of Unleaven Bread starts on the 15th, not the 14th. The wave sheaf was presented on the 16th, the day Christ rose from the dead. I completely disagree with your last paragraph Mark.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/11/17 12:08 PM

Good job Dedication! The first points regarding Judas etc are noteworthy but not persuasive IMO but these texts are strong support for your position:
Quote:
John 18:28 states that the Jewish accusers of Jesus “did not enter the praetorium, so that they might not be defiled, but might eat the Passover” (RSV).

Furthermore, John 19:14-18 places Christ's trial before Pilate before Passover.

Now it was the Preparation of the passover: it was about the sixth hour. And he saith unto the Jews, “Behold, your King!” They therefore cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate saith unto them, “Shall I crucify your King?”


This explanation you've given would account for the discrepancy in the other gospels - that even in Christ's day there was a difference of opinion on when the month began by one day and so Christ could eat the Passover by Galilean reckoning which was on the first day of Unleavened Bread for them, and be offered on the more recognized date, one day later. That agrees well with the character of God. He works with our limited understanding regardless of which class we identify with, enlightening us until we all come in unity of the faith to a measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

I'm still looking at this but I'm very happy with the thought that we may arrived at the true understanding of this centuries old problem.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/11/17 12:17 PM

If there was this division on the start of the month in Christ's day the residual question would be who was right - the Galileans or the priests and Pharisees? If Christ as Firstfruits rose from the dead on the 16th, that would solve that question. The Priests were right on their calculation of the first of the month.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/11/17 12:28 PM

The other interesting question this view generates is which lamb escaped from the priests when the veil was torn? There were probably hundreds of passover lambs offered that day at the temple. Christ died about the 9th hour which is about 3 PM. This would be during the time when these lambs were being slain, before the corporate evening sacrifice so it would have been one of these that escaped. We're that lamb that escaped.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/11/17 04:23 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Christ celebrated the Last Supper the eve of Nisan 14th (Thursday)
Christ died on Friday afternoon (Nisan 14th) the very time the Passover Lamb was slain.
He rested in the tomb Saturday, which was a high Sabbath being the 7th day Sabbath as well as the Sabbath of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15th)
He rose Sunday (Nisan 16th)

The gospel of John indicates that Jewish Passover Supper came after Christ's death. That Christ died on the preparation day for the Passover (which is the time the Passover Lamb was slain)
Mark, I do not understand what is wrong with this. I am under the impression, can't find it again, but that Ellen White said or implied that Christ's last supper was eaten before the actual passover everyone else would eat, that it was not really intended as the passover as Christ Himself was the passover, that the meal and footwashing service served to institute in the place of the Jewish Passover. Therefore, the meal Christ ate with the disciples was not the Jewish Passover, but a supper Christ ate with the disciples in preparation for Christ as the Passover later that day, and as preparation to the replacement of communion with the Jewish rites and ceremonies.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/11/17 04:33 PM

There was a James who basically said in his false prophesy that the Southern hemisphere didn't really count.

What do you say, concerning any validity to using the equinox rather than a local determination for the Jewish economy for determining the start of the year? Does South America / Australia count? When should their year start, given the thought that ancient Jewish year beginnings affect current times? Taken further, when should those exactly on the equator start their year?

Elle was not able to say how to determine when the equinox is. If the equinox cannot be determined at any preciseness far from the equator, unless I'm wrong, it would even be harder to determine it near the equator.


Whereas, anyone living in an agricultural economy could easily determine whether grain was going to be ripe within a month.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/11/17 05:54 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Mark, I do not understand what is wrong with this.
Did you miss my last few posts? I agree with Dedication and APL now. She did a good job reviewing the passages in John. I'm convinced this explanation is valid and harmonizes all four gospels.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/11/17 06:08 PM

Regarding the equinox vs the harvest the reason I asked for a presentation on this from you and Dedication is that I thought I might have missed something. I've reviewed the scriptures you quoted and your reasoning and I'm not convinced yet. The evidence still favors the equinox IMO but I don't want to belabor. If you haven something new I'm always open to scripture and how it applies.


If you're referring to James as a false prophet, be careful of your labels. In the last days the gift of prophecy will be widespread because the promise in Joel is that the Lord will pour out His spirit on all flesh. That's the case even with reprobates. Those who like Pharaoh are enlightened during the latter rain may even utter prophesies like King Saul but harden their hearts. They will be lost but when the time comes the gospel and holy spirit will cover the earth as the waters cover the seas. If that's the case, we ought to expect that many sincere believers who have the prophetic gift will not understand all scripture accurately and will be wrong on some things. Many children will have the gift but will not be experts in the word. And some with the prophetic gift may not always clearly know the difference between a word from the Lord and their impressions.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 04/12/17 12:43 AM

Ok, I thought you agreed with only portions of what they said. I guess when you said something about "not persuasive" made me think you disagreed. But I missed the part about arriving at a true understanding.

We gave texts supporting harvest determining the new year. Whether that's convincing or not is one thing, but what verses are there about the equinox?

Your advice about last day prophecy is good, but after some totally off the wall, makes one want to reject anything related. But that is an interesting thought (or dilemma) about some may have a true gift, but not know where their opinions start and end. Hmmm, how does one sort through that.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 05/03/17 04:42 PM

Regardless of whether there are or are not verses about the equinox, how does one determine when it is, given the capabilities of the Israelites?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 05/07/17 12:30 AM

The ancient Jews and oriental cultures were not as backward as we might think. Simple instruments have been found that were used for determining the equinox. The Jews have consistently been at the forefront of invention for millennia. Solomon's temple has never been equaled for architectural and artistic perfection. Some claim the best of Greek architecture was inspired by but dimly reflected it's magnificence and beauty.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 05/07/17 09:24 AM

The ancients were obsessed with astronomy and astrological knowledge. All over the world we still find huge monuments (and smaller ones) that were perfectly lined up to show equinoxes and many other events connected with planets, stars, and the sun.

"Many ancient cultures studied the stars and cosmic phenomena so brilliantly that they were able to produce magnificent works with such high precision star-alignments that we are still baffled by them till now."

For example the three pyramids of Giza of Egypt, built millenniums prior to Christ, are a perfect reproduction of the 3 stars of Orion’s belt.

Or the calendars produced by the ancient Mayans --
one made quite a sensation a few years ago.



A lot of it has an eerie sense to it -- linked heavily with pagan worship,
which has always made me somewhat uncomfortable when it gets into the religious realms too heavily.

Is it of God, or is it occultic?

I do know that Kabbalism, (mystical religion) took rather firm root in the Jewish religion, and we need to be careful in discriminating between what is biblical and what came from Kabbalism when we turn to rabbinical literature.

Seems the Biblical method was based on crops ripening, not on equinoxes?
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 05/08/17 02:45 AM

The study of astronomy ought to be encouraged. "The heavens declare the glory of God . . . " The night sky is one of the most valuable lesson books of nature and of the majesty and power of God. The Magi would, like the Jews, not have noticed the new star in the heavens heralding Christ's birth if they had not been accomplished astronomers. Have another look at what the sacred record says about the purposes of God in creating the heavenly bodies. smile
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 05/08/17 02:57 AM

As far as I know there are no large scale pagan style monuments to the heavenly bodies that have been found in Israel or built by Jews to calculate or mark the seasons. There have always been apostate groups and movements among God's people so it is possible something like that could have been constructed. But if something like that was found say from the reign of the kings it wouldn't be wise to assume it was pagan or simply scientific, like a modern telescope, until we look at all the evidence.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 05/08/17 07:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
The study of astronomy ought to be encouraged. "The heavens declare the glory of God . . . " The night sky is one of the most valuable lesson books of nature and of the majesty and power of God. The Magi would, like the Jews, not have noticed the new star in the heavens heralding Christ's birth if they had not been accomplished astronomers. Have another look at what the sacred record says about the purposes of God in creating the heavenly bodies. smile

There is studying astronomy which is the study of the stars, galaxies, and space --
then there is astrology which also studies stars, constellation and their positions in the sky, etc.,.

The first is awesome and indeed shows the power and glory of God.
The second contains a lot of the eerie part filled with pagan and occult mystical stuff.
The distinction between the two are often blurred.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 05/08/17 09:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
As far as I know there are no large scale pagan style monuments to the heavenly bodies that have been found in Israel or built by Jews to calculate or mark the seasons. There have always been apostate groups and movements among God's people so it is possible something like that could have been constructed. But if something like that was found say from the reign of the kings it wouldn't be wise to assume it was pagan or simply scientific, like a modern telescope, until we look at all the evidence.


Well there is the Rujm el-Hiri in the Golan Heights, not far from the sea of Galilee. Archeologists suggest it was built around 3000 B.C., so it was probably built soon after the flood, and before Israel occupied the territory.

According to one hypothesis, supported by a large part of the researchers, the site was used for special ceremonies during the longest and shortest days of the year. On the longest day, the first rays of the sun shone through the opening in the north-east gate. At the times of the two equinoxes, the sun's rays would pass between two rocks, 2m in height, 5m in width, at the eastern edge of the compound.
In our day --every year a group of "New Agers" gathers at the site on the summer solstice, and on the equinox, to view the first rays of the sun shine though the rocks.

The fascination with the solstice and equinoxes, was a very important part of sun worship.


However, we know from scripture they had a lot of "high places" for worshipping pagan gods in the OT. We also have accounts of certain kings, like Hezekiah, or Josiah, who tore down the high places.

Josiah "defiled the high places" by burning dead men’s bones upon them, as 2 Kings 23:14,16,20

That bit of Biblical information may (or may not) answer the questions of Rujm-el-Hiri. Rujm-el-Hiri has the evidence that it was an astrological devise, determining the solstice, and the equinox. But then there is also evidence that about 1000 years later it was used for the dead. So the arguments get into gear over what the Rujm-el-Hiri was used for.

However, if it was an observatory (along with a place for celebrating the solstice, and the equinox, in pagan sun worshipping manner, and used as such for 1000 years, then suddenly it seemed to become a place for the dead -- could it have been Josiah was working on "defiling" that place?
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 05/08/17 11:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
The ancient Jews and oriental cultures were not as backward as we might think. Simple instruments have been found that were used for determining the equinox. The Jews have consistently been at the forefront of invention for millennia. Solomon's temple has never been equaled for architectural and artistic perfection. Some claim the best of Greek architecture was inspired by but dimly reflected it's magnificence and beauty.

I agree, that if one is established at a location, one can measure and mark the solstices, and then calculate a halfway point, align stones, and be able to tell the next year when the half-way point is. I get that.

But how would the Israelites wandering through the wilderness calculate a halfway point of the sun traveling north to south? If they had some instruments, are they not available today? For it would be fragile ground to travel saying that there's some mysterious instruments they used that we cannot have today.

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
The study of astronomy ought to be encouraged. "The heavens declare the glory of God . . . " The night sky is one of the most valuable lesson books of nature and of the majesty and power of God. The Magi would, like the Jews, not have noticed the new star in the heavens heralding Christ's birth if they had not been accomplished astronomers. Have another look at what the sacred record says about the purposes of God in creating the heavenly bodies. smile
Declaring the glory of God and using stars to calculate a calendar, zodiac or otherwise, are two different things. As Dedication said, we must not blur the edges of the occult.

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
As far as I know there are no large scale pagan style monuments to the heavenly bodies that have been found in Israel or built by Jews to calculate or mark the seasons. There have always been apostate groups and movements among God's people so it is possible something like that could have been constructed. But if something like that was found say from the reign of the kings it wouldn't be wise to assume it was pagan or simply scientific, like a modern telescope, until we look at all the evidence.
Not sure I'm following. Are there any scale of pagan or non-pagan monuments to heavenly bodies that have been found in Israel or built by Jews to calculate or mark the seasons?

This brings up the question even further, what are these "instruments" used by the Jews? Yes, I do express doubt, but yet I am very curious because I've searched several times and have not found any culture able to have any instruments other than permanent non-portable stones placed which could be calculated to produce an arbitrary mid-way point.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 05/30/17 04:42 PM

Any luck in finding information on these instruments for determining the equinox?

And still, what do these verses mean to you?
Le 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Le 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

De 16:9 Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn.


No where does the Bible talk about the equinox.
But it does correlated the feasts to grain harvest.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/03/17 03:47 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Any luck in finding information on these instruments for determining the equinox?


Yes. My original source was an archaeologist(s) who found them on site. I don't have the reference handy.

When the tabernacle was erected it was placed in an east-west direction. The ancients had the required technology to precisely align buildings to the four points of the compass. So from the erection of the tabernacle Israel had a means of determining the equinox. When the sun rose directly east so that its rays aligned with the center of the Holy and Most Holy, that day was the equinox.

The ancient Egyptians who had enslaved the Israelists were and still are renowned for the precision of the orientation of their pyramids. There is nothing occultic in the technology itself. It's the use of the technology.

Here's a link to a paper from NASA from the 1940's giving five different simple ways for school children to determine the equinox with a precision of a fraction of a day using a sheet of paper with a hole. It's a great example of the practical kind of education that used to be common in America and needs to be emulated in our families.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/03/17 04:14 PM

For home schooler's here's an activity for your children. Have them pick an observation point on your property where they have a clear view of the eastern or western horizon. Pick an observation point that you can easily identify - (like the third post on your deck, the NW corner of your house etc) and pick an easy to identify point on the horizon or in the foreground that aligns with something that's as close to due east or west as possible using a magnetic compass or GPS. Take a picture of the horizon and mark the due eastern or western point on the photo. On the day of the equinox correct your observation by noting where on the photo the sun on that day rose or set relative to the same object you noted in the photo and from the same observation point. Now you know what due east and west is from the observation point and can tell when the equinox is from that point without any instruments. The disk of the sun will align exactly with that point on the horizon at every equinox.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/04/17 08:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: kland
Any luck in finding information on these instruments for determining the equinox?


Yes. My original source was an archaeologist(s) who found them on site. I don't have the reference handy.

When the tabernacle was erected it was placed in an east-west direction. The ancients had the required technology to precisely align buildings to the four points of the compass. So from the erection of the tabernacle Israel had a means of determining the equinox. When the sun rose directly east so that its rays aligned with the center of the Holy and Most Holy, that day was the equinox.

The ancient Egyptians who had enslaved the Israelists were and still are renowned for the precision of the orientation of their pyramids. There is nothing occultic in the technology itself. It's the use of the technology.

Here's a link to a paper from NASA from the 1940's giving five different simple ways for school children to determine the equinox with a precision of a fraction of a day using a sheet of paper with a hole. It's a great example of the practical kind of education that used to be common in America and needs to be emulated in our families.


Interesting.
And yes it is obvious that the ancients knew how to position buildings to determine the equinox.
Nor is there anything wrong with determining the time of the equinox.

The questions arise when this becomes a matter of religion.

There is also the question of whether the Israelites, who wandered in the wilderness, and thus did not set their tabernacle in any permanent place, but moved it every time they moved, would have been able or even required to set it up with exact compass precision in order to determine the equinox as that is never mentioned in scripture.

We do know there was a very organized system to setting up camp, --3 tribes east of tabernacle, -- 3 tribes north of tabernacle --3 tribes west of tabernacle --3 tribes south of tabernacle, etc.

But that was for organization -- not necessarily compass precision.

From what I understand the tabernacle was set up in the east/west position purposely so the people would NOT face the rising sun when they gathered at the door of the tabernacle, as the door was opened toward the east they turned their backs on the sun and turned their faces toward the true God.

Ezekiel 8:16 describes the abomination of priests turning their backs on the sanctuary and facing the rising sun for worship.

To face the sun meant to turn their backs on God, His sanctuary and the law.

Thus it would seem very odd for the sanctuary of God to be built so the sun would illuminate it's inside chambers on equinox, which was the very essence of sun worship.

The sanctuary was illuminated by the presence of God.

Originally Posted By: Waggonner
When the Lord showed the prophet Ezekiel the abominations committed by the priests in the temple, he said, "Thou shalt see greater abominations," and showed him the priests "with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east." Ezek. viii. 16. They had adopted this from the sun-worshipping nations about them. To guard against seeming to participate in this custom of turning toward the east, the tabernacle in the wilderness, and afterward the temple in Jerusalem, were set facing the east so that the priests administering before the Lord should face the west, with backs to the east. And when the children of the captivity were scattered among the sun-worshipping nations of the East they were to turn toward Jerusalem-to the west-in their worship. But the priests in Ezekiel's day had adopted the eastward position. {June 11, 1896 EJW, PTUK 384.7}
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/04/17 04:39 PM

dedication,

I agree with you. The real purpose for the alignment of the sanctuary was to turn the people, quite literally, away from the sun god when they worshiped the real God. It is a powerful symbolic gesture on God's part to have that done. It is quite significant psychologically to literally turn your back on a false god to worship the true God.
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/04/17 04:45 PM

The title of this thread always makes me chuckle. Is there a Biblical/divine calendar? Of course there is. The problem is finding the correct calendar, not whether or not it exists. The Bible is way too clear on that subject to doubt whether or not God has a time frame for everything He does.

Sorry, pedantry off now.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/05/17 04:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: kland
Any luck in finding information on these instruments for determining the equinox?


Yes. My original source was an archaeologist(s) who found them on site. I don't have the reference handy.

When the tabernacle was erected it was placed in an east-west direction. The ancients had the required technology to precisely align buildings to the four points of the compass. So from the erection of the tabernacle Israel had a means of determining the equinox. When the sun rose directly east so that its rays aligned with the center of the Holy and Most Holy, that day was the equinox.

The ancient Egyptians who had enslaved the Israelists were and still are renowned for the precision of the orientation of their pyramids. There is nothing occultic in the technology itself. It's the use of the technology.

Here's a link to a paper from NASA from the 1940's giving five different simple ways for school children to determine the equinox with a precision of a fraction of a day using a sheet of paper with a hole. It's a great example of the practical kind of education that used to be common in America and needs to be emulated in our families.

Thank you! I hadn't thought of that, but it does make sense that the path of the shadow of the sun's revolution from east to west would reveal also it's halfway point in it's revolution from south to north.

Now I agree that the equinoxes can be determined. At first, I thought easier than the solstices, but after further consideration, not really. I believe either could be determined in the wilderness, requiring a day being stationary. I believe the principles in the paper could be simplified that on any day, one could determine if the equinox existed, was approaching, or had passed. Likewise, and even with less effort, the solstices could be determined whether still approaching or past.

I'm a little concerned if you understand the issue fully when you speak about "the four points of the compass". What has the compass to do with anything? The paper only referred to the compass as for an approximation. Maybe you used it as an expression, meaning "the four directions".

So now that we can determine both the end points and the halfway points of the sun's revolution, why should either one be used to mark the beginning of the year? In fact, wouldn't a beginning of the year be more likely to coincide with a beginning of the sun's revolution whether from north to south or south to north? Neither one has any reference in Leviticus 23 nor Deuteronomy 16.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/05/17 04:49 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
From what I understand the tabernacle was set up in the east/west position purposely so the people would NOT face the rising sun when they gathered at the door of the tabernacle, as the door was opened toward the east they turned their backs on the sun and turned their faces toward the true God.

Ezekiel 8:16 describes the abomination of priests turning their backs on the sanctuary and facing the rising sun for worship.

To face the sun meant to turn their backs on God, His sanctuary and the law.
Try and see how much headway you gain by informing some of the wolves among the sheep of such. The ones promoting beginning the Sabbath at "dawn", an undetermined time of your own choosing before sunrise.

'We're not facing the sun, only in the direction of the sun....'
Posted By: dedication

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/05/17 06:28 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: dedication
....

Ezekiel 8:16 describes the abomination of priests turning their backs on the sanctuary and facing the rising sun for worship.

To face the sun meant to turn their backs on God, His sanctuary and the law.
Try and see how much headway you gain by informing some of the wolves among the sheep of such. The ones promoting beginning the Sabbath at "dawn", an undetermined time of your own choosing before sunrise.

'We're not facing the sun, only in the direction of the sun....'


Hadn't really thought of that aspect before. But now it does clarify something --
God's Sabbath is from evening until evening. (Lev. 23:32)
In other words, it's when the "god" Satan has promoted for 1000's of years as the highest god -- namely the sun, goes down that the Sabbath begins. The true God begins His day which is the sign that He is our God, the One who sanctifies and saves, when we turn our backs on the counterfeit god.

That thought is only the tip of a whole wealth of thoughts that emerge from its realization.
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/05/17 08:59 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: dedication
From what I understand the tabernacle was set up in the east/west position purposely so the people would NOT face the rising sun when they gathered at the door of the tabernacle, as the door was opened toward the east they turned their backs on the sun and turned their faces toward the true God.

Ezekiel 8:16 describes the abomination of priests turning their backs on the sanctuary and facing the rising sun for worship.

To face the sun meant to turn their backs on God, His sanctuary and the law.
Try and see how much headway you gain by informing some of the wolves among the sheep of such. The ones promoting beginning the Sabbath at "dawn", an undetermined time of your own choosing before sunrise.

'We're not facing the sun, only in the direction of the sun....'

What does the fact that someone stubbornly refuses to accept truth have to do with the truth they reject? It has always been my experience that you cannot convince a man against his will. If he wills not to believe something he will never believe it, no matter what the arguments are you place in front of him.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/07/17 07:46 PM

Yes, you're right Gary, I just keep thinking logic and reason would convince them.


Originally Posted By: dedication

Hadn't really thought of that aspect before.
I get the feeling I'm one of the few who see it as a big crisis movement within our church. But maybe it has to hit close before one notices....

Quote:
But now it does clarify something --
God's Sabbath is from evening until evening. (Lev. 23:32)
Be careful using that one. They will quickly point out that's regarding a feast day and not a regular day. They even distort those verses to make it say there are two overlapping days involved there, one on the 10th, and the other midway on the 9th.

However, proper use would be to say, just like Lev 23:32 shows when the feast day starts, other days start the same way. It won't help, but at least won't give them something to distort.

I'm finding they're game plan is to find anything that we have not been accurate in, or we are not sure of allowing multiple possibilities and they will come and say that's wrong, here is what it is.

Look up the Sacred Name Movement and prepare yourself for what's coming to a church near you.
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/08/17 03:33 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Yes, you're right Gary, I just keep thinking logic and reason would convince them.


Originally Posted By: dedication

Hadn't really thought of that aspect before.
I get the feeling I'm one of the few who see it as a big crisis movement within our church. But maybe it has to hit close before one notices....

Quote:
But now it does clarify something --
God's Sabbath is from evening until evening. (Lev. 23:32)
Be careful using that one. They will quickly point out that's regarding a feast day and not a regular day. They even distort those verses to make it say there are two overlapping days involved there, one on the 10th, and the other midway on the 9th.

However, proper use would be to say, just like Lev 23:32 shows when the feast day starts, other days start the same way. It won't help, but at least won't give them something to distort.

I'm finding they're game plan is to find anything that we have not been accurate in, or we are not sure of allowing multiple possibilities and they will come and say that's wrong, here is what it is.

Look up the Sacred Name Movement and prepare yourself for what's coming to a church near you.


From what I bolded above....

I find the objection you noted as a very, very weak argument. All that needs to be done is point out Genesis and creation week. The evening and the morning were the first day, second day, third day, etc... right on down to the seventh day. Once that is noted they must prove from the Bible that God changed how He looks at the 24 hour day. I have never seen anything in scripture that tells me that God changed the day to run from dawn to dawn, rather than from evening to evening. Until they can prove that they have no logical position to hold.
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/08/17 03:47 AM

I would also point out that the darkness, night, existed here on earth before the day, light, did. The light came out of and overcame the darkness. Thus the first 24 hour period began in darkness and ended at the end of the light. So God logically kept the same order or night and then day from that point onwards. He could only have supernaturally changed the order and there is nothing in the Bible that tells us that He did.
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/08/17 04:04 AM

I have one more idea on this too. Ask when God reversed the rotation of the earth, for only in doing that would the order of evening-morning been changed to morning-evening. God once stopped the rotation of the earth, but the evidence is completely lacking that he ever reversed the rotation.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/09/17 07:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Gary K
All that needs to be done is point out Genesis and creation week. The evening and the morning were the first day, second day, third day, etc... right on down to the seventh day. Once that is noted they must prove from the Bible that God changed how He looks at the 24 hour day.
And indeed they attempt so. They say, see, it says evening and morning. That means morning comes first.

And I'm like, whaaaa?

I think they mean, God created, then there came evening and then morning. So therefore, morning must have been first which wasn't mentioned. However, they fail to realize, if the day contains the morning, then the next day must start sometime after that point. ...Confusion!

Have you seen this thread:
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=176117
Posted By: dedication

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/10/17 01:09 AM

And it seems to me there are different wave lengths of thought here.

Kland seems to be talking about "days" as to when do they begin "morning or evening" with focus on the beginning of the Sabbath. As he is dealing with people who think Sabbath begins at dawn.

The thread itself was more about basing the calendar on the phases of the moon and solar equinoxes, etc. to determine God's time table for events.

Gary, at first, seemed to be talking about prophetic time lines -- which are more mathematical calculations rather than solar and moon based.

However, it all kind of dove tails into how to deal with the "new thoughts" entering Adventism that point to the sun and stars and other celestial bodies, to determine God's activities rather than anything we base time on now.

To me -- it all sounds a lot like a softening up to the sun and moon worship that pervaded the ancient world.

Yes, Israel started their months based on the first sighting of the new moon. However, their calendar was based on harvests not on equinoxes etc.
Their FEAST days were fixed to the month. But their Sabbath was every seventh day, there is no indication that the seven day cycle was disrupted at the end of every month like the "lunar calendar promoters" try to persuade us.

The day starts at evening -- according to scripture.

But now we have all kinds of strange ideas coming in to confuse prophecy, to confuse timelines, confuse which day is the Sabbath, confuse us as to when the Sabbath begins.

What is also confusing is how much EGW writings are quoted by these groups, while they ignore the plain English statements from her pen that clearly show she does not agree with them.

Quote:

At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun.(DA 774)

...in the evening, at the commencement of the Sabbath, while engaged in prayer, I was shown in vision... LS 231
As the sun goes down [at the close of the Sabbath], let the voice of prayer and the hymn of praise mark the close of the sacred hours and invite God's presence through the cares of the week of labor. {CCh 264.3}






Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/11/17 09:28 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Gary K
All that needs to be done is point out Genesis and creation week. The evening and the morning were the first day, second day, third day, etc... right on down to the seventh day. Once that is noted they must prove from the Bible that God changed how He looks at the 24 hour day.
And indeed they attempt so. They say, see, it says evening and morning. That means morning comes first.

And I'm like, whaaaa?

I think they mean, God created, then there came evening and then morning. So therefore, morning must have been first which wasn't mentioned. However, they fail to realize, if the day contains the morning, then the next day must start sometime after that point. ...Confusion!

Have you seen this thread:
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=176117


I don't have access to that part of the forum.
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/11/17 09:37 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication

Gary, at first, seemed to be talking about prophetic time lines -- which are more mathematical calculations rather than solar and moon based.



I'm curious. How did you come to that idea? I bolded exactly what I was replying to in kland's post which was talking specifically about how people are now trying to say the Hebrew day started at dawn rather than sundown.

Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/11/17 09:42 AM

Quote:
What is also confusing is how much EGW writings are quoted by these groups, while they ignore the plain English statements from her pen that clearly show she does not agree with them.


This is quite common behavior these days for all of those people who are always trying to find something "new and sensational" to push. It actually started in Ellen White's day though, and for the same reasons as today.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 06/12/17 04:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: dedication

Gary, at first, seemed to be talking about prophetic time lines -- which are more mathematical calculations rather than solar and moon based.



I'm curious. How did you come to that idea? I bolded exactly what I was replying to in kland's post which was talking specifically about how people are now trying to say the Hebrew day started at dawn rather than sundown.



It was a post before that.

Originally Posted By: Gary
The title of this thread always makes me chuckle. Is there a Biblical/divine calendar? Of course there is. The problem is finding the correct calendar, not whether or not it exists. The Bible is way too clear on that subject to doubt whether or not God has a time frame for everything He does.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/05/19 07:33 PM

Consider the following under part VI, supposedly written by Froom as a summary of a 1930s study committee. Starting at the end of the first page saying the year starts with Barley and the new moon, as with the Karaites. The website says we are to look to old Jerusalem and keep the Jewish feast days.
http://godsholidays.com/barley.html
Posted By: Nadi

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? - 03/07/19 11:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Gary K
I don't have access to that part of the forum.
Yeah...that part is only for the 144,000.

Not that I'm bragging, but I'm actually a member of the 144,000. They were selling memberships for a dollar, but I think they're sold out.
© 2024 Maritime 2nd Advent Christian Believers OnLine Forums Consisting Mainly of Both Members & Friends of the SDA (Seventh-day Adventist) Church