New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions

Posted By: Stan

New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/14/06 03:04 PM

I just put a Sermon geared for training Global Evangelists, on the web, it is about 30 minutes.

This is done by Robert Folkenberg, and he clearly deals with the contradictory statements in the New Testament on this topic.

When I show this DVD at the seminars I do, I can see "light bulbs" going off in peoples heads. Most people say that this is the best sermon they have EVER heard.

It is well worth the investment of time to view this.

Streaming Video, must have quicktime viewer, a free program from www.quicktime.com

Stan

http://homepage.mac.com/stanjensen/iMovieTheater15.html

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/17/06 05:41 PM

Stan, my computer will not allow me to listen to this sermon. Can you please type out the main components of it? Thank you.

Posted By: Stan

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/17/06 09:51 PM

There is too much for me to type, it is one of those 'every word is important' sermons...

This is rating among the best sermons heard by most who listen.. Perhaps someone else can put it to text. I do not have the time right now.

I doubt i the text will do it justice...

Posted By: Daryl

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/18/06 12:47 AM

Stan,

The link isn't loading up the video-sermon for me either. [Confused]

Posted By: Daryl

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/18/06 02:46 AM

It's working now, however, even with high speed Internet, it took a long, long time to load.

Posted By: Darius

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/18/06 03:38 AM

Folkenberg got it just a bit wrong. Lucifer never thought that he would be ABOVE God. He wanted to be above the clouds.

He also messed up the story of how Eve fell into trouble. What he said happened is not what happened.

But, he the rest is beautiful. Especially the rule about obeying before asking why.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/18/06 03:54 AM

Daryl, what did he say different than normal? That is, different than saying by faith we are as righteous as Jesus is righteous - both legally and really.

1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Posted By: rhammen

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/18/06 08:07 AM

Basically he said that where he has gone around the world, he has been looked like as a liberal north american because he doesn't preach, "You need to keep the Sabbath, stop eating unclean meat, etc. to be saved." But he preaches that salvation is only through Christ and that we are not saved because of what we do. the call should always be to accept Christ as our savior and our lord. We will want to obey Him if we realize he's saved us from death.

Nothing quite as deep as what you have mentioned, MM, but he did have a lot to say. I believe he said that a lot of SDAs just go to church on Sabbath to see friends or because it's their habit, not because they are keeping the Sabbath or because they want to worship God.

I was multitasking, reading websites and listening at the same time. His translator wasn't the best (to Spanish) and the translator might have got even more nervous since bob didn't give him much time between phrases. the guy was suffering.

R

Posted By: rhammen

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/18/06 08:08 AM

Darius,

I agree with you! That was a great illustration on how we should obey. The why comes after obeying.

Abraham obeyed that way when God asked him to sacrifice his son.

r

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/18/06 06:40 PM

For me the "why" doesn't come after I obey. And in Abraham's case it didn't either. He obeyed becaused he trusted God. That's the "why" he obeyed. He believed God would provide for him and his family, or, in the case of Isaac, he simply believed God would resurrect him.

Not that it didn't cause him great sorrow. Sadness and sorrow are not signs of unbelief, they are normal, healthy signs. God wept during the crucifixion of Christ, even though it was the right thing.

I obey God because, for one reason, it feels good. Plus I know it makes God happy. In fact, it makes all heaven happy. Knowing that it makes all heaven happy makes me happy. Also, knowing that obedience is required to spend eternity in heaven with Jesus, and my loved ones, motivates me to obey. And, I don't want to crucify Jesus afresh by sinning. I love Him too much.

FW 95, 96
While we are to be in harmony with God's law, we are not saved by the works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience. The law is the standard by which character is measured. But we cannot possibly keep the commandments of God without the regenerating grace of Christ. Jesus alone can cleanse us from all sin. He does not save us by law, neither will He save us in disobedience to law. {FW 95.3}

FW 50
When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion. {FW 50.1}

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/19/06 08:04 AM

quote:
That is, different than saying by faith we are as righteous as Jesus is righteous - both legally and really.

What's the difference?

Posted By: Cheri Fritz

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/19/06 02:47 PM

Greetings MM,

Think you forgot to put in the element which brings us to trust and obey, that is love. John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Otherwise everything is still done out of legalities.

Your Sister in Christ,
Cheri Fritz

Posted By: Cheri Fritz

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/19/06 03:12 PM

...Let me restate that a bit,

I think that you forgot to "accentuate" love as our motive. Although you did cover it, but it came much later in your response.

Thank you,
Sr. Cheri Fritz

Posted By: Jeff

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/19/06 06:00 PM

For some who question “why” the why immediately in their minds isn’t “why should I obey God”, but “why should I keep the Sabbath” or “why should I avoid unclean meats”, or “why should I not drink coffee”? Rather than asking why obey God, they are questioning is this really what God asks? It only becomes a question of “why obey God” for those of us who believe that those things are indeed what God asks of us.

Another thing to ponder…does obeying first involve a conscious effort to obey as much as it involves a natural tendency to do the thing that amounts to obedience anyway because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Jeff

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/19/06 08:58 PM

Tom, the difference between being legally righteous as opposed to being really righteous is the difference between justification (imputed righteousness) and sanctification (imparted righteousness).

quote:
Righteousness within is testified to by righteousness without. He who is righteous within is not hard-hearted and unsympathetic, but day by day he grows into the image of Christ, going on from strength to strength. He who is being sanctified by the truth will be self-controlled, and will follow in the footsteps of Christ until grace is lost in glory. The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven.--Review and Herald, June 4, 1895. {MYP 35.2}

Cheri, yes, and amen! The love of Jesus is one of the main things that motivates us to obey, and one of the main things that empowers us to obey.

quote:
Oh, let us contemplate the amazing sacrifice that has been made for us! Let us try to appreciate the labor and energy that Heaven is expending to reclaim the lost, and bring them back to the Father's house. Motives stronger, and agencies more powerful, could never be brought into operation; the exceeding rewards for right-doing, the enjoyment of heaven, the society of the angels, the communion and love of God and His Son, the elevation and extension of all our powers throughout eternal ages--are these not mighty incentives and encouragements to urge us to give the heart's loving service to our Creator and Redeemer? {SC 21.3}

And, on the other hand, the judgments of God pronounced against sin, the inevitable retribution, the degradation of our character, and the final destruction, are presented in God's word to warn us against the service of Satan. {SC 21.4}

Jeff, your point to ponder reminded of the following insight:

quote:
All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. {DA 668.3}

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/19/06 09:09 PM

quote:
Tom, the difference between being legally righteous as opposed to being really righteous is the difference between justification (imputed righteousness) and sanctification (imparted righteousness).

So you're saying when a person is justified by faith they are not really righteous?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/20/06 06:06 PM

Both are true simultaneously the moment we are born again, and both are maintained on a moment by moment basis by continually obeying God, by continually abiding in Jesus, by continually refusing to sin, and by continually maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

Justification is what Jesus accomplishes for us in heaven. It accommodates past sins pardoned and sins of ignorance. Jesus cannot justify or forgive us if we refuse to confess and forsake known sin. One sin cherished completely cancels the privileges of justification.

“No one can believe with the heart unto righteousness, and obtain justification by faith, while continuing the practice of those things which the Word of God forbids, or while neglecting any known duty.” (1SM 396)

“God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul.” (FW 100)

“Genuine faith will be manifested in good works; for good works are the fruits of faith. As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and cooperates with God, he works out in the life what God works in by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained.” (1SM 397)

Sanctification is what Jesus accomplishes in and through us on earth. It has nothing to do with sinning and repenting and forgiveness (justification accommodates these aspects of salvation). Sanctification is the process of growing intellectually and maturing morally. We are born again fully justified and sanctified. We obtain justification by faith, and we maintain it through faith that works by love and purifies the soul. “Sanctification is the work of a lifetime.” (COL 65)

Although we are justified and sanctified the moment we are born again, the actual process of sanctification continues throughout eternity. While in heaven, we will continue to grow more and more like Christ. This “work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186)

“‘The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.’ Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another.” (ML 250)

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/20/06 08:03 PM

quote:
Justification is what Jesus accomplishes for us in heaven.

I'm glad we're having this conversation because it's helping clear up some things. What you call "sanctification" is what I call "justification".

"Justification" is not what Jesus accomplishes for us in heaven. It's the same thing as being born again, or being converted. It's a change of heart and mind, a transformation, a reconciliation.

When I have time, I'll make a careful case for what I have asserted above. Just a couple of quick texts.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God." (Rom. 8:1) This shows justification is not a work done in heaven, but done in the heart and mind of man.

"With the heart man believeth unto rightouesness".(Rom. 10:10) This also shows justification by faith is a work done in the heart of man.

It has to be a work done in the heart and mind of man, because that's where the problem is. There's no problem in heaven, no justification needs to be done there.

Justification is simply "reconciliation", setting things right. Here's a quote from the Spirit of Prophecy:

quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.(ST 1/20/90)

Note we're set right (justified) by the revelation of God. Once again, this is a heart work.

More later.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/21/06 01:22 AM

Tom, if justification does not make pardon for past sins possible, and if it doesn't make covering sins of ignorance possible - what does?

FW 100
God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. (FW 100)

FW 103
Pardon and justification are one and the same thing. Through faith, the believer passes from the position of a rebel, a child of sin and Satan, to the position of a loyal subject of Christ Jesus, not because of an inherent goodness, but because Christ receives him as His child by adoption. The sinner receives the forgiveness of his sins, because these sins are borne by his Substitute and Surety. The Lord speaks to His heavenly Father, saying: "This is My child, I reprieve him from the condemnation of death, giving him My life insurance policy--eternal life--because I have taken his place and have suffered for his sins. He is even My beloved son." Thus man, pardoned, and clothed with the beautiful garments of Christ's righteousness, stands faultless before God. {FW 103.2}

6BC 1071
The grace of Christ is freely to justify the sinner without merit or claim on his part. Justification is a full, complete pardon of sin. The moment a sinner accepts Christ by faith, that moment he is pardoned. The righteousness of Christ is imputed to him, and he is no more to doubt God's forgiving grace. {6BC 1071.8}

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/21/06 01:47 AM

quote:
Tom, if justification does not make pardon for past sins possible, and if it doesn't make covering sins of ignorance possible - what does?

You may have noticed from your quotes, that justification by faith and pardon for sins are one and the same. So it doesn't make any sense to say that justification makes pardon possible, does it? Since that would be saying justification makes justification possible.

That justification and pardon are the same can be seen from the Scriptures. When the publican smote his breast, and wouldn't so much as look to heaven, but cried out, "God, be merciful to me a sinner" he went away justified, according to Jesus. This shows that justification and pardon are the same.

Also in Romans 4 Paul cited David as an example of justification when David said, "Blessed is the man whose sins are forgiven."

Given that justification = forgiveness of sins, what makes you think justification is something which happens in heaven? All of the quotes you have provided show the same thing I stated, which is that justification happens in the human heart and mind.

You also have not commented on the Scriptures and EGW texts which states this very thing. You also have not provided any statement that says justification is something that happens in heaven.

The only possible thing you could mention would be that our names are written in the book of life, but this is simply a recognition of the work which God has done in human hearts and minds. The books in heaven don't lie. They don't call someone righteous who is really unrighteous. The righteousness of Christ is real righteousness, which purifies the soul and transforms the mind. This is justification by faith.

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/21/06 01:56 AM

quote:
In order to be candidates for heaven we must meet the requirement of the law: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself" (Luke 10:27). We can do this only as we grasp by faith the righteousness of Christ.

By beholding Jesus we receive a living, expanding principle in the heart, and the Holy Spirit carries on the work, and the believer advances from grace to grace, from strength to strength, from character to character. He conforms to the image of Christ, until in spiritual growth he attains unto the measure of the full stature in Christ Jesus. Thus Christ makes an end of the curse of sin, and sets the believing soul free from its action and effect. (1SM 394 - Emphasis mine)

By hunting and pecking around, I'm sure I could find many quotes like this. Justification by faith is a heart work. With the heart man believeth unto righteousness (Romans 10:10)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/21/06 04:49 AM

Actually, Tom, I have been saying all along that justification accommodates sins confessed, forsaken, and pardoned, and that it accommodates sins of ignorance. Jesus made pardon possible on the cross and He makes it available to us in the holy place in the heavenly sanctuary.

I agree that what Jesus does for us in heaven symbolizes what He is does for us here on earth, but justification is not the means by which God empowers us to overcome past, known sins or sins of ignorance.

Justification accommodates forgiveness, it does not empower us to overcome past, present, or future sins. Sanctification is a lifelong process of advancing from one stage of perfection to another. It has nothing to do with sinning and repenting.

Jesus cannot pardon us until we have confessed and crucified our sins. He doesn't justify us a little at a time as we gradually outgrow known and revealed sins. Jesus cannot justify us until we confess and forsake our old man habits of sin, until we fully surrender ourselves to Him, until we are completely dead to sin and totally awake to righteousness.

The only types of sins that remain to be revealed and confessed and crucified after non-SDAs are baptized are sins of ignorance. But in the cases of properly prepared SDAs, sins of ignorance are non-existent. No properly prepared SDA will discover after they are baptized that dressing immodestly or that eating bloody beef burgers, for example, are sins.

Jesus does not wait until after we are born again, until after we become church members to make us aware of biblical standards and doctrines that govern the lifestyle of born again SDA believers. That would be perceived as underhanded and dishonest.

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/21/06 07:39 AM

MM:Actually, Tom, I have been saying all along that justification accommodates sins confessed, forsaken, and pardoned, and that it accommodates sins of ignorance.

I'm having a difficult time understanding you. "Accommodate" is an odd choice of words. Do you "accommodate" as in "make allowance for"? That's my guess, given that you say justification accommodates sins of ignorance. But justification has nothing to do with accommodation, at least not in this sense. If you mean the definition from the Latin, as in "to make fit" or "to make suitable," that's more possible, but there's still the problem that justification and pardon are one and the same, so to say that justification accomodates pardon is to say that justification accomodates justification. So I don't know what you're saying.

MM:Jesus made pardon possible on the cross and He makes it available to us in the holy place in the heavenly sanctuary.

This is true. Pardon is made possible by a revelation of God's character, and Christ both did this on the cross and continues to do so now. The whole purpose of His ministry is to reveal God to us, in order to set us right (justify us) with God. The following quote beautifully describes the process:

quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)

I agree that what Jesus does for us in heaven symbolizes what He is does for us here on earth, but justification is not the means by which God empowers us to overcome past, known sins or sins of ignorance.

Yes it is. Read the quote above. That is describing being born again, which is justification by faith. Note how it says, "The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Justification is the means by which God empowers us to overcome sin, all sin. Pardon involves overcoming sin.

MM:Justification accommodates forgiveness, it does not empower us to overcome past, present, or future sins.

What do you mean by "accomodates." Do you mean "to provide with something desired, needed or suited"? I'm looking at all the definitions, but am having difficulty finding one which fits.

Justification by faith is the same thing as conversion, being born again, the New Covenant, being pardoned, or being reconciled. All of these are describing the same thing, which is the work of God to change the heart and mind of the believer, bringing him in harmony with Himself and His law. The quote involving Nicodemus describes justification by faith very well. "The Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ." This is very much empowering us to overcome sin. This is the *only* way we can be empowered to overcome sin. Only the love of God streaming from the cross which reveals His character can empower us to overcome sin. The cross is the only way.

Sanctification is a lifelong process of advancing from one stage of perfection to another. It has nothing to do with sinning and repenting.

Sanctification is simply justification by faith continued throughout the life. It has everything do to with repentance, although it, of course, has nothing to do with sinning. Consider the following quote:

quote:
At every advance step in Christian experience our repentance will deepen.

Jesus cannot pardon us until we have confessed and crucified our sins.

It sounds like you are viewing this as some sort of deal. We cannot crucify our sins of ourselves. This is the work of Christ. It is justification by faith which results in our sins being crucified. When we see the love of God revealed on the cross, that does the trick, if we do not resist the Spirit. Look closely at the Nicodemus quote. That explains it nicely. Perhaps I can find some more quotes.

Here's a good one:

quote:
The cross of Calvary challenges, and will finally vanquish every earthly and hellish power. In the cross all influence centres, and from it all influence goes forth. It is the great centre of attraction; for on it Christ gave up His life for the human race. This sacrifice was offered for the purpose of restoring man to his original perfection. Yea, more, it was offered to give him an entire transformation of character, making him more than a conqueror.

Those who in the strength of Christ overcome the great enemy of God and man, will occupy a position in the heavenly courts above angels who have never fallen.

Christ declares, 'I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me.' If the cross does not find an influence in its favor, it creates an influence. Through generation succeeding generation, the truth for this time is revealed as present truth. Christ on the cross was the medium whereby mercy and truth met together, and righteousness and peace kissed each other. This is the means that is to move the world." The SDA Bible Commentary, 5:1113.

Note that the cross is center of all influence, and that it vanquishes every hellish power. Why? Because it is on the cross that truth is fully seen. When one looks at the cross and sees, one is one the road to becoming an overcomer. This is justification by faith.

MM, one thing to keep in mind is whatever theory you come up with regarding overcoming sin must involve the cross front and center.

He doesn't justify us a little at a time as we gradually outgrow known and revealed sins.

That's right, he justifies us all at a time, transforming us into His children and friends. He transforms our hearts and minds. He makes us new creatures in Christ.

Jesus cannot justify us until we confess and forsake our old man habits of sin, until we fully surrender ourselves to Him, until we are completely dead to sin and totally awake to righteousness.

I'm not sure what "awake to righteousness" means. The means of justification is that which is shown in the Nicodemus quote. God reveals His love through Christ, through the cross. That love draws the sinner. If the sinner does not resist, he is led to the foot of the cross in repentance. A new life is created in the soul. The law is written in the heart and mind. The whole being is brought into conformity to Christ. This is justification by faith.

Posted By: Darius

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/21/06 04:15 PM

If we had to wait for you guys to get it straight no one would be saved. Whew!

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/21/06 05:37 PM

quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)

Pretty easy, Darius! Just don't resist the drawing of the cross.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/21/06 09:12 PM

Tom, I’m using the word “accommodates” in the sense that justification is where pardoned sins and sins of ignorance reside. I do not agree that pardon is the source that empowers us to resist repeating our pardoned sins. True, the fact Jesus was merciful enough to pardon our past sins motivates us to trust Him to empower us to resist repeating them, but Jesus, not pardon itself, is our source of power.

Jesus, not knowledge about Him or what He does, is the source of our power to resist reverting back to our former sins. Regarding sins of ignorance, there is no source of power for resisting committing sins of ignorance, at least, not until after we become aware of them, at which point they are no longer sins of ignorance. As such, sins of ignorance are sins that Jesus covers with His righteousness in heaven. It cannot happen in our heart and mind, too.

I agree with you that our repentance, as it relates to past sins pardoned, deepens as our relationship with Jesus matures. I feel way more sorrow and sadness for my past pardoned sins now than I did last year, or even last week. And, yes, this is part of the process of sanctification. However, I do not associate it with justification. I make a distinction between justification and sanctification. I do not view them as one and the same thing.

I agree that sin loses all its power and appeal at the cross. I’m sorry you didn’t know I firmly believe this central truth. I also believe it motivates us to trust Jesus to empower us to resist giving in when tempted to repeat our former sins. I do not believe, however, that knowing information about the cross is the source of my power to resist temptations. Jesus, not knowledge about Him or the cross, is our source of power to resist temptations.

I agree that we are born again justified and sanctified. But I also believe we are born again without our former defective traits of character. I do not believe we gradually outgrow our known sins after we are born again. Nor do I believe post-baptismal sins of ignorance include sins that are obvious to even unbelievers, sins like impatience, lying, stealing, or being rude, crude, or otherwise unlovely.

People who have been properly prepared for baptism into the SDA faith are not ignorant of the truth. Those members who are ignorant of the truth were baptized prematurely, and may or may not be truly born again. If they are living up to all the light that they are aware of then they are truly converted. But it is difficult to imagine someone being a baptized SDA and not realizing that working unnecessarily on the Sabbath, for example, is a sin.

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/22/06 06:43 AM

Tom, I’m using the word “accommodates” in the sense that justification is where pardoned sins and sins of ignorance reside.

That didn't help much. That's not what "accomodate" means, and sins do not "reside" in justification. I don't know what that means either. Justification by faith and pardon of sin are one in the same, so what you're saying would be tantamount to saying that justification is where justification resides

I do not agree that pardon is the source that empowers us to resist repeating our pardoned sins.

Try this. Justification by faith is one in the thing as pardon, correct? And what is justification by faith? To be set right by faith, because "justify" means to set right. So pardon sin sets us right. We cannot be set right without being brought into harmony with God's law. Therefore pardon brings us into harmony with God's law. Therefore it must bring us victory over sin.

I'd suggest reading "The Glad Tidings" or "Christ and His Righteousness". There are so many ways to show that justification by faith brings victory over sin, and Waggoner presents many different arguments to show this. Perhaps I'll share a few a bit later. Anyway, the Desire of Ages quote brings out this very point. Note from that quote (the Nicodemus one) that it is when one repents and receives forgiveness that one is brought into harmony with God's law, and every thought brought captive to the obedience of Christ. So it is clear, as clear as can be, that pardon brings victory of sin.

True, the fact Jesus was merciful enough to pardon our past sins motivates us to trust Him to empower us to resist repeating them, but Jesus, not pardon itself, is our source of power.

Christ is the source of power exactly by justifying, or pardoning us.

Jesus, not knowledge about Him or what He does, is the source of our power to resist reverting back to our former sins.

The way Christ provides victory is by way of our minds. There is no power apart from our choosing to follow Christ, which we cannot and will not do apart from knowledge about Him and what He does. Christ said that to know God, and Jesus Christ whom He sent, is life eternal. Of course our power over sin comes from knowing Christ. How could it be otherwise? In what way to you think Christ provides power? It is by His enlightening of our minds that He provides us power to overcome.

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/22/06 06:51 AM

Regarding sins of ignorance, there is no source of power for resisting committing sins of ignorance, at least, not until after we become aware of them, at which point they are no longer sins of ignorance.

I don't know what point you're trying to make. Of course there is a source of power for resisting sins of ignorance. Even though we may not know a certain thing is a sin, God knows, and if it is our desire to follow Him, He can gives us power to resist whatever sin. If we are willing to do His will, then it is completely up to God, and if He chooses, He can certainly do so (i.e., give us power to resist whatever sin)

As such, sins of ignorance are sins that Jesus covers with His righteousness in heaven. It cannot happen in our heart and mind, too.

I don't know what this means. There's no problem in heaven. There are no sins of ignorance to cover in heaven. I don't know what you mean that it cannot happen in our heart and mind too. What cannot happen?

I agree with you that our repentance, as it relates to past sins pardoned, deepens as our relationship with Jesus matures. I feel way more sorrow and sadness for my past pardoned sins now than I did last year, or even last week.

What about your present pardoned sins?

And, yes, this is part of the process of sanctification. However, I do not associate it with justification. I make a distinction between justification and sanctification. I do not view them as one and the same thing.

Sanctification is just justification continued throughout the life. Both come through faith alone in Jesus Christ. The only way of salvation, whatever word you want to use, is to respond to God's call to mercy by repentance and submitting to His will. As a momentary thing, at whatever stage in one's life, this is justification. As a continuing process, it is sanctification.

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/22/06 07:05 AM

I agree that sin loses all its power and appeal at the cross. I’m sorry you didn’t know I firmly believe this central truth.

You don't speak of it much. It doesn't find its way into many of your comments. (not enough of mine either). The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that no truth can be understood apart from the cross. Yet I don't think you've mentioned it once in all of our conversations about God destroying sin even thought we've had hundreds of posts about this subject.

I also believe it motivates us to trust Jesus to empower us to resist giving in when tempted to repeat our former sins. I do not believe, however, that knowing information about the cross is the source of my power to resist temptations. Jesus, not knowledge about Him or the cross, is our source of power to resist temptations.

The very way that Jesus is a source of power is through the cross! The cross is the power of God. That's Paul, in several places. It's Ellen White as well:

quote:
The cross of Calvary challenges, and will finally vanquish every earthly and hellish power. In the cross all influence centres, and from it all influence goes forth.(5BC 1113)

I'd be curious to know just how you think it is that Jesus gives us power apart from the cross.

I agree that we are born again justified and sanctified.

Being born again is no different than being justified. They are two different ways of saying the same thing. It's like saying "we are justified justified." Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. Being born again is the beginning of the process. You could say in a sense that one is sanctified when one is justified, since "sanctified" means "set apart for holy use" and justification certainly accomplishes that.

People who have been properly prepared for baptism into the SDA faith are not ignorant of the truth. Those members who are ignorant of the truth were baptized prematurely, and may or may not be truly born again. If they are living up to all the light that they are aware of then they are truly converted. But it is difficult to imagine someone being a baptized SDA and not realizing that working unnecessarily on the Sabbath, for example, is a sin.

Yes, but there are other things they might do on the Sabbath and not see as sin when they are baptized which later on in their experience they might.

Posted By: Colin

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/22/06 08:19 AM

Before commenting on both your points, Folkenberg's own points are pretty good, but nothing new to SDA's who have found 1888 to be a most precious message, which point Folkenberg affirms.

Jesus saves us for 'church practice' and a Christian lifestyle, which are enabled by the recreated spiritual experience his Spirit establishes by grace through faith: "the experience of justification" (the GC's definition of righteousness by faith at Palmdale in 1976, when sorting out its meaning with the Australian Brethern).

Now, Tom, your emphasis on God's revelation of love in Jesus being what converts us, epitomised by the cross, leaves the small question for you: is motivation for a converted lifestyle merely the realisation of the fact that God is love, or the historic fact that Jesus died our death because of agape? You sound like one supporting the moral influence theory, but I don't believe you do support it. If MM neglects to emphasise [your] point of love's brilliance in the cross of Christ, you neglect to emphasise that Jesus death saves us from our deserved death, not just from our own confusion about God being love.

As for justification not being empowerment while being pardon, sanctification as imparted righteousness is incompatible with the believing sinner's unregenerated sinful mind, since imputed righteousness only involves pardon of the past, but no renewed mind for the present, and sanctification cannot produce a renewed mind - it only supplies the contents for such a mind. Unless imputed righteousness includes empowerment by experiential justification of the believer with 'instalment' of the mind of Christ - i.e. submission to the Holy Spirit, not even God is powerful enough to change the character with imparted righteousness...there being no compatible change of heart.

Justification is an experience of righteousness: renewed mind; therefore, imparted righteous supplies the 'meat' of the sanctified life, but only because our spiritual faculties are regenerated, which is the experience of justification. Exercising that regenerated faculty is exercising justification - ie. the mind made righteous: sanctification is that exercise's description.

Waggoner wrote something like being made righteous in justification is being made totally perfect in that moment, and constant faith thereafter may maintain that perfection in practical terms, but fleeting unbelief frustrates that growth in grace. That growth changes the character according to the renewed, righteous mind, but the utmost God himself can do for us is to justify, or make right, our minds.

Sanctification is not 'separate' from justification, but is the descriptive appearance of justification in action; 'distinguishing' them only shows that justification is truly an experience of righteous renewal and regeneration that qualifies believers for heaven, while adapting one's life to that regeneration with the sanctified life is just permeating one's character with the righteousness of regeneration.

Imputed righteousness transforms the mind; imparted righteousness transforms the character.

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/22/06 06:01 PM

quote:
Now, Tom, your emphasis on God's revelation of love in Jesus being what converts us, epitomised by the cross, leaves the small question for you: is motivation for a converted lifestyle merely the realisation of the fact that God is love, or the historic fact that Jesus died our death because of agape?

Is motivation for a converted lifestyle merely the realisation of the fact that God is love, or the historic fact that Jesus died our death because of agape? This question isn't clear. Motivation is not an historic fact. Motivation is based on an historic fact. That Jesus died our death is an historic fact.

You sound like one supporting the moral influence theory, but I don't believe you do support it.

Do you have the 1897 Genercal Conference Builliten (the one with Waggoner's sermons on Hebrews?) If you do, read through Fifield's sermons, and that's what I believe.

If MM neglects to emphasise [your] point of love's brilliance in the cross of Christ, you neglect to emphasise that Jesus death saves us from our deserved death, not just from our own confusion about God being love.

The way Jesus death saved us from our deserved death is by converting us, as well as purchasing the ability for us to choose. You wrote this:

quote:
Thereby Christ saved the world by saving our humanity from its self-destruction in his own person, putting us corporately to death in his body.

I agree with this, and have been emphasizing it, as you should know if you're following the thread on Christ's human nature. I've been trying to explain the corporate concept, and even quoted this statement of yours, which I think is well stated. I'm well familiar with Rom. 5:18;2 Cor. 5:14, 15; Isa. 44:22 to name a few Scriptures, and 1SM 343; FW 18, 19; DA660 to name a few SOP references, and have been quoting them regularly.

I agree compeletely with your statement above. Christ corporately saved the race from self-destruction. He corporately saved the race.

I don't think I've written anything about our confusion that God is love. I'm not sure why you said that.

I have quoted this:

quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)

Is this what you had in mind? At any rate, I don't think it's possible to over-emphasize the importance of knowing the truth about God's character. That's what the whole Great Controversy is about.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/23/06 07:38 AM

quote:
It is by His enlightening of our minds that He provides us power to overcome.

I totally disagree with this view of the source of our power to resist temptation. Jesus, not knowledge about Him, is the source of our power to resist temptations. Yes, knowledge helps us to trust in Jesus to provide us with the power to resist temptations, but Jesus is, nevertheless, the sole source. What Jesus does to us that makes it possible for us to obey is a supernatural work.

quote:
DA 324
When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan. But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one. We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world.

It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. We have only to neglect to ally ourselves with the kingdom of light. If we do not co-operate with the heavenly agencies, Satan will take possession of the heart, and will make it his abiding place. The only defense against evil is the indwelling of Christ in the heart through faith in His righteousness. Unless we become vitally connected with God, we can never resist the unhallowed effects of self-love, self-indulgence, and temptation to sin. We may leave off many bad habits, for the time we may part company with Satan; but without a vital connection with God, through the surrender of ourselves to Him moment by moment, we shall be overcome. Without a personal acquaintance with Christ, and a continual communion, we are at the mercy of the enemy, and shall do his bidding in the end. {DA 324.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/23/06 07:47 AM

quote:
Yes, but there are other things they might do on the Sabbath and not see as sin when they are baptized which later on in their experience they might.

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/23/06 08:19 AM

quote:
I totally disagree with this view of the source of our power to resist temptation. Jesus, not knowledge about Him, is the source of our power to resist temptations. Yes, knowledge helps us to trust in Jesus to provide us with the power to resist temptations, but Jesus is, nevertheless, the sole source. What Jesus does to us that makes it possible for us to obey is a supernatural work.

This sounds like magic. What is it you think Jesus does exactly? I'm confused about your comment about Jesus being the sole source. Jesus Christ, the revelation of God, is what enlightens our mind. What did you think the source I was referring to was?

But you are right to challenge me to support my view. I'll see what I can think of immediately, and think about it some more. This is a good thing about these discussions. It would never have dawned on me that someone would challenge this statement, so I'm called to think about defending an idea I had thought self evident. But the fact that you are questioning it means there probably are others as well who would, so it's a good thing for me to have to think of how to explain and substantiate it.

Well an SOP statement and Scripture text from John come to my mind. Here's the SOP statement:

quote:
In the work of redemption there is no compulsion. No external force is employed. Under the influence of the Spirit of God, man is left free to choose whom he will serve. In the change that takes place when the soul surrenders to Christ, there is the highest sense of freedom. The expulsion of sin is the act of the soul itself. (DA 466)

quote:
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.(John 17:3)

The first quote brings out how no external force is used, but man is influenced to choose whom he will serve. The expulsion of sin is that act of the soul (or mind). It is God's enlightenment of the mind, the revelation of truth, which influences man to expell sin from the soul.

The text in John tells us that knowing God is life eternal. Certainly life eternal encompasses the overcoming of sin, and since knowing God is dependent upon the revelation of God which illuminates the mind, this shows that it is by enlightening our minds that God empowers us to overcome sin.

Another Scripture that comes to mind is Rom. 1:16, 17 which speaks of the Gospel being the power of God unto salvation. If the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, it is difficult to conceive of how this could operate apart from the illuniation of the mind? Another text says the cross is the power of God. I've quoted a text from 5BC around 1113 I think about the cross being the center of all influence. These also speak of the necessity of the mind being illuminated for the overcoming of sin. How else is the cross the power of God unto salvation? How else is it the center of all influence?

Consider this statement, which I've often quoted:

quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.

This seems to me to very clearly explain the importance of the illumination of the mind in the process of salvation. It is by beholding the love of God revealed at the cross that we are drawn to God. If we do not resist, God leads us to repentance, and writes the law in our heart and mind.

Well that's what immediately comes to mind. I'll think about it some more.

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/23/06 08:25 AM

quote:
Yes, but there are other things they might do on the Sabbath and not see as sin when they are baptized which later on in their experience they might.

Tom, please provide an example. Saying it is one thing, but proving it is quite another. Keep in mind that I'm asking you to prove that a thoroughly prepared SDA baptismal candidate can break the Sabbath in some yet to be named way without realizing it is a sin.

If you do manage to come up with a viable example, then please explain why the Holy Spirit chooses not to reveal it to them, why He thinks they are better off not knowing about it until some future date. Thank you.

Tom:MM, why don't you do the following. Make a list of things you think are a sin to do on the Sabbath. 50 items would be good, but I'll take a couple of dozen. I'll go through the list and tell you which items I think apply.

Regarding explaining why the Holy Spirit would choose to reveal something at one point of in a person's Christian experience rather than another, I would begin to presume to speak for Him.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/24/06 07:33 AM

Tom, you left off quoting DA 466 right where it explains my point. Here’s the entire quote:

DA 466
In the work of redemption there is no compulsion. No external force is employed. Under the influence of the Spirit of God, man is left free to choose whom he will serve. In the change that takes place when the soul surrenders to Christ, there is the highest sense of freedom. The expulsion of sin is the act of the soul itself. True, we have no power to free ourselves from Satan's control; but when we desire to be set free from sin, and in our great need cry out for a power out of and above ourselves, the powers of the soul are imbued with the divine energy of the Holy Spirit, and they obey the dictates of the will in fulfilling the will of God. {DA 466.4}

Yes, that power, which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, acts like magic in our lives. That’s why Sister White calls it magical, supernatural. Sister White did not shun using the words magic or supernatural as it relates to the success of the gospel and salvation. Listen to her:

CT 171
Oh, for a clear perception of what we might accomplish if we would learn of Jesus! The springs of heavenly peace and joy, unsealed in the soul of the teacher by the magic words of Inspiration, will become a mighty river of influence, to bless all who connect with him. {CT 171.2}

CT 524
Within the past few years, doors have been thrown open as if by magic, and men and women are needed to enter these doors and begin earnest work for the salvation of souls. {CT 524.1}

4bSG 121
This system (systematic benevolence) has liberally sustained preachers and the cause. It has been carried out. It has worked like magic. {4bSG 121.2}

1T 375
This system has been carried out and has worked like magic. It liberally sustains the preachers and the cause. {1T 375.3}

SR 338
The world was awakened from the slumber of ages, as from land to land were sounded the magic words, "Religious Liberty." {SR 338.4}

1SM 336
But those who are waiting to behold a magical change in their characters without determined effort on their part to overcome sin, will be disappointed. {1SM 336.2}

RC 108
Wait not for some magical change to be wrought in you, without taking the requisite steps yourself. Life must be with you a humble working out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God that worketh in you to will and to do of His good pleasure. {RC 108.2}

CC 118
Men's weakness shall find supernatural strength and help in every stern conflict to do the deeds of Omnipotence, and perseverance in faith and perfect trust in God will ensure success. {CC 118.4}

CT 399
Invisible agencies will work through the visible; the supernatural will co-operate with the natural, the heavenly with the earthly; unknown things will be revealed through the known. Let the grace of Christ be revealed to teach that man may be renewed in the likeness of God. {CT 398.3}

DA 324
When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. {DA 324.1}

DA 605
By His words and His works, Christ testified to a divine power that produces supernatural results, to a future life beyond the present, to God as a Father of the children of men, ever watchful of their true interests. He revealed the working of divine power in benevolence and compassion that rebuked the selfish exclusiveness of the Sadducees. He taught that both for man's temporal and for his eternal good, God moves upon the heart by the Holy Spirit. He showed the error of trusting to human power for that transformation of character which can be wrought only by the Spirit of God. {DA 605.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/24/06 07:46 AM

Tom, rather than responding to my request by asking me to respond to your request, please, let's keep it simple and just name one thing. I do not believe such a thing is possible. Whereas you do. So, please, just name one that we can discuss. Thank you.

Regarding why the Holy Spirit might wait to reveal a particular sin or defect is not mysterious. He waits until we are able to handle it. He doesn't want to blow us away, so He waits until He knows He can empower us to deal with it in a godly way.

John
16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show [it] unto you.

With this simple insight in mind, please help me understand why the Holy Spirit would wait to reveal to the SDA person I have described the particular Sabbath violation you have in mind. Thank you.

Tom, please understand that I am not trying to trick you or something sinister like that. I really do want to understand your position, and I need concrete examples to do that. Thank you.

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/23/06 08:32 PM

I think there may be more to the Holy Spirit's work than what you are requesting.

A list of Sabbath sins would be helpful. It's helpful to me to know what you consider a Sabbath sin. I don't want to be in the position of giving an example, and your dismissing the example as not a sin. I want to know beforehand that the example I provide, you accept as a bona fide sin. Then all I have to do is choose one that would not be covered by baptism preparation, and which the Holy Spirit could reveal after baptism.

Thank you.

Posted By: Darius

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/23/06 08:35 PM

What does the HOly Spirit do when different people claim that He does different things in the same circumstances? It must be tough.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/24/06 12:47 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:

quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)
Pretty easy, Darius! Just don't resist the drawing of the cross.

With such drawing, how do we actually resist?

Posted By: Darius

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/24/06 01:12 AM

We have no say in the divine act of salvation. It is not ours to resist. Nothing could stand in the way of Christ and success. We seem to relish turning back the clock but it is to no avail. It was all finished 2,000 years ago. Someone needs to send out a memo.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/24/06 05:09 AM

Daryl, in reality it is a miracle that any of us actually respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit, that any of us actually accept Jesus as our Personal Saviour, that any of us actually survive the process of conversion, that any of us actually experience rebirth, and that any of us will actually remain faithful unto the end. But thank God for those who do!

Matthew
7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew
20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

TM 232
Many who hear the message--by far the greatest number--will not credit the solemn warning. Many will be found disloyal to the commandments of God, which are a test of character. {TM 232.3}

HP 343
The Lord has sent us, by His ambassadors, messages of warning, declaring that the end of all things is at hand. Some will listen to these warnings, but by the vast majority they will be disregarded. {HP 343.5}

SD 238
What a terrible record the human race will have to meet in the last day, since the vast majority of men have refused the priceless offering,--rejected the richest gift that God could bestow upon the world. {SD 238.2}

LDE 23
In the days of Noah the overwhelming majority was opposed to the truth, and enamored with a tissue of falsehoods. The land was filled with violence. War, crime, murder, was the order of the day. Just so will it be before Christ's second coming.--1BC 1090 (1891). {LDE 23.2}

LDE 180
To stand in defense of truth and righteousness when the majority forsake us, to fight the battles of the Lord when champions are few--this will be our test. At this time we must gather warmth from the coldness of others, courage from their cowardice, and loyalty from their treason.--5T 136 (1882). {LDE 180.4}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/24/06 05:42 AM

Okay, Tom, you win. As you read this list of Sabbath sins please bear in mind the following description of a properly prepared, thoroughly educated, truly born again SDA believer. Also, please understand that I realize there are exceptions to rule, that is, there are times when extenuating circumstances allow us to do things that we would not ordinarily do on the Sabbath. For example, we may be required to buy food or gas in emergencies. However, I believe a truly born again SDA believer knows the difference.

6BC 1101
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again (RH April 12, 1892). {6BC 1101.1}

TSB 135
This ingrafting in Christ separates us from the world. No longer will we love the society of the vile and contaminated and contaminating. We will be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Then rich clusters of fruit are borne. The graces of the Spirit are borne in love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness. We have new affections, new appetites, new tastes. Old things have passed away, and lo, all things have become new. {TSB 135.2}

A Short List of Sabbath Sins (including some sins that are sins any day of the week)

1. Failing to prepare for it in advance
2. Failing to guard the edges
3. Doing unnecessary chores or work
4. Making unnecessary purchases
5. Surfing the net for worldly things
6. Watching worldly TV
7. Listening to worldly music
8. Discussing unnecessary business
9. Overexerting oneself physically
10. Playing worldly games
11. Eating at a restaurant
12. Being short tempered
13. Foolish jesting
14. Overeating
15. Impure thoughts
16. Lying
17. Cheating
18. Stealing
19. Anger
20. Off colored jokes
21. Selfishness
22. Pride
23. Forgetting Jesus

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/24/06 07:07 AM

Thank you for the list. Here are my thoughts.

1. Failing to prepare for it in advance
This should be explained prior to baptism.

2. Failing to guard the edges
ditto
3. Doing unnecessary chores or work
This is something the Holy Spirit could give light on after baptism. That is, what exactly is an "unnecessary chore" or "work"? This is something on which one's judgment is like to develop.
4. Making unnecessary purchases
Same as 3.
5. Surfing the net for worldly things
Same as 1 as worded, but same as 3 if "worldly" is changed to "unnecessary."
6. Watching worldly TV
Same as 1. The judgment of what is "worldly" may develop as one's judgment develops.
7. Listening to worldly music
Same as 6.
8. Discussing unnecessary business
Same as 3.
9. Overexerting oneself physically
Same as 3.
10. Playing worldly games
Same as 1.
11. Eating at a restaurant
If one has to pay, same as 1. Although Jesus' comments about David and shewbread come to mind.
12. Being short tempered
What does this have to do with Sabbath?!
13. Foolish jesting
Same as 12.
14. Overeating
Same as 12.
15. Impure thoughts
Same as 12.
16. Lying
Same as 12.
17. Cheating
Same as 12.
18. Stealing
Same as 12.
19. Anger
Same as 12.
20. Off colored jokes
Same as 12.
21. Selfishness
Same as 12.
22. Pride
Same as 12.
23. Forgetting Jesus
Same as 12.

Posted By: Stan

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/24/06 07:14 AM

Sooooooo how can we tell, from a Biblical sense, if we love God????

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/24/06 08:58 AM

I think we'd be better off heeding Paul's prayer:

quote:
14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family[a] in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

20Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen. (Eph. 3)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/25/06 07:32 AM

Tom, thank you for the response. However, I very much disagree with you. The Holy Spirit does not sit back and allow someone who in "all their habits and practices" and who have in "all things become new" to break the Sabbath in the ways you allowed above.

Also, the things you questioned having to do with Sabbath keeping have everything to do with it. Sinning on the Sabbath in any way is a violation of the Sabbath. If you break one commandment you break all of them.

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/25/06 07:48 AM

You wrote:

quote:
Regarding why the Holy Spirit might wait to reveal a particular sin or defect is not mysterious. He waits until we are able to handle it.

By your own words, the Holy spirit waits until we are ready to handle His revelations.

I'm also curious as to why you think our judgment as to what constitutes sin will not develop after we are baptized.

Posted By: Darius

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/24/06 08:14 PM

Sometimes I wonder which of you guys got to peek into the Holy Spirit's playbook?

Posted By: Tom

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/24/06 08:46 PM

You're right Darius. That why I wrote:

quote:
Regarding explaining why the Holy Spirit would choose to reveal something at one point of in a person's Christian experience rather than another, I wouldn't begin to presume to speak for Him.

(actually I left out the n't in "wouldn't," a big oops!)

Posted By: Will

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/27/06 05:36 AM

MM,
I couldn't help but notice the following where yousaid:

quote:

As you read this list of Sabbath sins please bear in mind the following description of a properly prepared, thoroughly educated, truly born again SDA believer.

What do you considered properly prepared, thoroughly educated, and truly born again?
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/27/06 06:37 PM

Will, good question. On the thread entitled - What does God require before we are baptized - it is explained, with quotes, in great detail. Essentially, according to the commandment of Jesus and the inspired counsel of Sister White, the church is required to educate baptismal candidates in "all things" that Jesus requires of SDA christians.

In other words, a person shouldn't have to find out after they are baptized that Jesus requires them to observe the Sabbath, to adhere to dress reform standards, to adopt a vegetarian diet tending toward vegan, to abstain from worldliness, to manifest the character of Christ in "all their habits and practices", etc.

Is that how you understand things?

Posted By: Will

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 02/28/06 12:48 AM

All but the veganism\vegatarianism is how I understand things.
Veganism or vegatarianism was never mentioned during Baptismal class for over 15 years. It also isn't a requirement to get into heaven, Jesus never taught this.
How is worldly defined? If its clothing, we only need to look at the pioneers who wore the Victorian style clothing, and the young men sporting lamb chops which defines the time period they lived in.
Could this be in our behavior, and our conversation?
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Stan

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 03/04/06 12:34 AM

For those who were unable to view the movie, I have also put it here

http://adventistforum.com/Number5.mov
Thanks

Stan

Posted By: Elle

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 03/21/17 12:01 AM

Bump! for Br.K

Here's one I could find. I haven't read it yet but it looks interesting.

Posted By: Garywk

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 03/21/17 06:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Elle

Bump! for Br.K

Here's one I could find. I haven't read it yet but it looks interesting.

Hi Elle,

Are you referring to me, Gary K, or to kland, or someone else? I saw and read this but it seemed to come to a rather sudden end without any real meeting of the minds.

RxF is such a deep subject and has so many facets to it that I didn't feel comfortable just hijacking someone else's thread. Seems to me RxF needs a forum of its own.

Posted By: Elle

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 03/21/17 07:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Gary K

Originally Posted By: Elle

Bump! for Br.K

Here's one I could find. I haven't read it yet but it looks interesting.

Hi Elle,

Are you referring to me, Gary K, or to kland, or someone else?

Sorry I didn't recall your first name when I quickly responded. I was referring to you-- Gary K

Originally Posted By: GaryK

I saw and read this but it seemed to come to a rather sudden end without any real meeting of the minds.

That often happens.

Later, I tried to listen to the sermon from the OP but the link is now dead.Too bad.

Quote:

RxF is such a deep subject and has so many facets to it that I didn't feel comfortable just hijacking someone else's thread. Seems to me RxF needs a forum of its own.

Hijack? This discussion has been dead and abandoned for 10 years.

And that's the only one I could find. I was surprise to see hardly any RxF discussion in this forum.

I don't see any problem starting your own discussion.

Posted By: Garywk

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 03/21/17 08:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Elle

Originally Posted By: Gary K

Originally Posted By: Elle

Bump! for Br.K

Here's one I could find. I haven't read it yet but it looks interesting.

Hi Elle,

Are you referring to me, Gary K, or to kland, or someone else?

Sorry I didn't recall your first name when I quickly responded. I was referring to you-- Gary K

Originally Posted By: GaryK

I saw and read this but it seemed to come to a rather sudden end without any real meeting of the minds.

That often happens.

Later, I tried to listen to the sermon from the OP but the link is now dead.Too bad.

Quote:

RxF is such a deep subject and has so many facets to it that I didn't feel comfortable just hijacking someone else's thread. Seems to me RxF needs a forum of its own.

It just feels odd to me to start a new aspect of the subject on a dead thread that was left in such disarray.

Like you I find the lack of threads on RxF puzzling. It has been the greatest part of my Bible study for decades. It seems like I find it the main theme of the Bible as no matter what I start out to study I end up up at some aspect of RxF.

Posted By: Elle

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 03/21/17 12:22 PM

i meant .... start a NEW discussion.

Posted By: Garywk

Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions - 03/21/17 02:47 PM

Elle,

I understood you.