If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love?

#168659


What is the difference between love and hate? If you kill someone who disagrees with you, is that showing love or hate?

While I do believe that wanton criminals (murders, thieves etc, not religious or political non conformists) need to be dealt with in justice, I can't agree with civil penalties executed against people just because they do not conform with what ever is considered the norm in political or religious matters.

In the gospel dispensation government does not have the right to legislate a persons religious affiliation.

In fact we know from scripture that government will step over that line and
people filled with what they consider holy zeal for God will kill God's true followers.

America became great because God blessed this country that upheld freedom of worship and regard for the personal worth of individuals, but when that ends, we know people will kill thinking they are doing God's will, when in reality they are fighting against God.

It is not put in the hands of mankind to enforce religion with the sword.

Unfortunately, the question is not framed distinctly enough to give a straight yes or no answer. It must be "it depends."

Let's look at the capital punishment example. If one killed a murderer as the avenger of blood (the one whose duty it was to do this), but killed without hatred as the law required, it would have been an act of love--regardless of whether the one killed would agree with you or not.

How? It shows love for:

1) God's honor;
2) God's law;
3) The purity of the people;
4) Justice and righteousness;
5) One's family; and
6) The murderer himself!

God asked the avenger of blood to do this duty, so one's love to God is demonstrated by obedience to His command. When one loves God's law, he or she does not want to break it, but rather keep it faithfully. The purity of the nation depended on eliminating sin in the egregious cases outlined by God. God is a lover of justice and righteousness, as is evident in the system of punishment which God ordained. One shows love for his own family as well, both for their purity and for their safety, to rid them of the one who had murdered their relative; who so egregiously dared to break God's law. And finally, one even loves the murderer by killing him, for he is placed beyond the ability to break God's law further, thus meriting a greater punishment in the judgment day. (Remember Jesus' words that for some it would be better to have a millstone about their necks and be thrown into the sea?)

However, if one simply goes around killing anyone who disagrees with him--obviously, that is not love, that is hate.

The motive is the determinant factor, and only God can read the heart fully. Because of this, God gave certain "tangible" examples to us to help us "read the motive" of the killer. The examples help us to distinguish more accurately between hatred and love. Having two or three witnesses was one of the safeguards to ensuring that the penalties were not abused and innocent lives lost. But, in the end, it was and is always possible that mistakes are made. God expects us to do our best, and He reserves final judgment for sin to Himself.

Nowadays, we have civil governments which take responsibility for these types of judgments. It is God's will that we obey the government in these matters. We no longer have the duty of avenging our relatives' murders, because the government has its system of justice to deal with such.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

One also places him beyond the ability to repent and give their lives to the Lord. Thus depriving them of a chance to have eternal life.

That is why God is the Judge. He alone knows the future, and the possibilities for such things as repentance. Will Uzzah be in heaven? He had no opportunity of repenting for his sin in touching the sacred ark. Thank God that He is fair, and all will know so in the end.

What God has commanded, let no one set aside in favor of personal views, doubts, or questionings.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The question that serves as title of this thread spells the words One and Him with uppercase O and H. Is it right to assume you are talking about Jesus?

As they reasoned in Noah's day they reason today, when the warning message is proclaimed to fear God and keep His commandments. The wrath of God is soon to fall on all the sinful and disobedient, and they will perish in the general conflagration. Professed servants of Christ who are unfaithful, who do not reverence God and with fear prepare for the terrible future event, will lull themselves to carnal security with their fallacious reasoning, as they did in Noah's day. "God is too good and too merciful [they reason] to save just a few who keep the Sabbath and believe the message of warning. The great men and the good men, the philosophers and men of wisdom would see the Sabbath and the shortness of time, if it were true." They do not believe a merciful God who made men will consume them with fire because they do not believe the warnings given. This, they reason, is not in accordance with God. . . . {12MR 207.1}

God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself" (Psalm 50:21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do. {12MR 207.2}

God's goodness and long forbearance, His patience and mercy exercised to His subjects, will not hinder Him from punishing the sinner who refused to be obedient to His requirements. It is not for a man--a criminal against God's holy law, pardoned only through the great sacrifice He made in giving His Son to die for the guilty because His law was changeless--to dictate to God. After all this effort on the part of God to preserve the sacred and exalted character of His law, if men, through the sophistry of the devil, turn the mercy and condescension of God into a curse, they must suffer the penalty. Because Christ died they consider they have liberty to transgress God's holy law that condemns the transgressor, and would complain of its strictness and its penalty as severe and unlike God. They are uttering the words Satan utters to millions, to quiet their conscience in rebellion against God. {12MR 208.1}

In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. All we have, all the bounties of His grace which we possess, we owe to God. The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. {12MR 208.2}

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice.--Ms 5, 1876, pp. 1-3.

Let's say my son tells me that his life goal was to hurt, injure, and damage himself before ultimtely committing suicide. On top of that, he will make every effort to hurt, injure, damage, and kill as many as he can in the meantime. I certainly would not be agreeable to such a plan.

What should a loving father do? Should I just beg him to reconsider? Should I just let him hurt and murder me in the hopes that my sacrifice will help him see his errors? If he does not change his mind, should I just wait for him to eventually kill himself, avoiding any kind of force to keep him from hurting himself or others? Should I simply stop providing him the food/water/shelter that he needs to live, knowing that his life depends on my providence?

What is the loving thing to do?

I did heard a pastor say he would kill his son to protect his daughter.

Green, you seem overly infatuated with avenging. Why?


What if you have a serial rapist, who really loves his victims' bodies, who has no ill will towards them, but he has to kill them because they might tell on him. The victims want nothing to do with him, but did he kill them in love? It wasn't hate. Would he be guilty of just plain killing them or murdering them?

OH - You mean like Satan?

I happen to live in a country where the last execution of a criminal took place on January 12,1830. I have no reason to be at variance with my civil authorities on this question,

There are some who are at variance with the civil authorities, who want them to kill those who commit certain crimes. What kind of attitude do you think they have towards the one they want killed?

And so we should leave it in God's hands.

While I believe civil authorities have a duty to keep their communities reasonably safe -- yes, there is need for law and order --
yet, killing is not the answer. Human justice is frightfully flawed. It is one of religions biggest, darkest, blackest, most inhumane sin in both Muslim and Christian history to go out and kill thinking they are doing God's will and even thinking they are earning heaven by so doing.

Better to engage in prison ministry encouraging the inmates to find Jesus and be changed, than to call up the firing squad that ends someone's probationary time pre-maturely.

Leave the "justice' in God's hands, for He truly knows the heart, He knows the end from the beginning, He has given His life that humans can have eternal life. We can leave it in His hands to accurately, lovingly and fairly give eternal life to all who accept His provision of grace, and leave it in His hands to remove the gift of life from those who have rejected that gift and thus disqualified themselves for eternal life. He alone knows the whole truth.

Let's say my son tells me that his life goal was to hurt, injure, and damage himself before ultimtely committing suicide. On top of that, he will make every effort to hurt, injure, damage, and kill as many as he can in the meantime. I certainly would not be agreeable to such a plan.

What should a loving father do? Should I just beg him to reconsider? Should I just let him hurt and murder me in the hopes that my sacrifice will help him see his errors? If he does not change his mind, should I just wait for him to eventually kill himself, avoiding any kind of force to keep him from hurting himself or others? Should I simply stop providing him the food/water/shelter that he needs to live, knowing that his life depends on my providence?

What is the loving thing to do?

But, Dedication, what can you say about the fact that God has granted the civil powers authority to do these things? It is part of God's will that the governments of this world exercise their powers of judgment and punishment.

If there is a bad apple in the box, soon the whole box is spoiled. Remove the bad apple, and the rest will keep all winter. God knows that egregious crimes need to be punished. In the case of people, if left long enough (like King Manasseh), some may return to God. But at what cost? Is one soul worth sacrificing multitudes of souls?

Here's Manasseh's story, in brief, from Ellen White.



Note the last two sentences there. Two points are salient there: 1) Manasseh's conversion was "remarkable;" and 2) it came too late to save "many" who would never rise again. In most cases, one so hardened in sin would not convert, even given the opportunity. Furthermore, their evil influence had effected far more bad than perhaps the good of their own salvation could accomplish. Yes, a soul is of infinite value. But what about all of those other souls--the "many" who would never rise again? Were they of less value than the life of the king?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I had missed that. Glad you pointed it out. While satan and the other angels were created beings, they are counted as God's children, His sons and daughters. God knew that satan would continue to cause untold harm and damage and "many" would become so hardened they would never convert, and even some "innocent" ones would be lost. Yet He did not kill his child, even a creation which He could replace, to prevent future tragedies.

I noticed asygo only repeated himself, without addressing anything. Do you hear him suggesting that he is more "loving" with his children than God is with His children?

Manasseh repented. Are you saying Green he should have been taken out long before this to save many souls? What are you saying?

Should Cain have been taken out after he killed Able? God did not do that, why?

And chief among the sinners is Satan - why was it necessary to permit the worst sinner to ever live to continue to live? Could it be that force submission just does not work?

In euthanasia ist the motivation love or hate?

Did Saul commit euthanasia? Badly wounded, he fell on his sword to end the suffering.

That's because neither you nor APL has answered any of the questions I posed. You were only able to read the 1st paragraph. I repeated it so you would not miss the rest. It is good that APL brought the parallel to Satan to your attention. If you were the father, what would you do about your son?

Third time's a charm, they say. So, here goes.


Let's say my son tells me that his life goal was to hurt, injure, and damage himself before ultimtely committing suicide. On top of that, he will make every effort to hurt, injure, damage, and kill as many as he can in the meantime. I certainly would not be agreeable to such a plan.

What should a loving father do? Should I just beg him to reconsider? Should I just let him hurt and murder me in the hopes that my sacrifice will help him see his errors? If he does not change his mind, should I just wait for him to eventually kill himself, avoiding any kind of force to keep him from hurting himself or others? Should I simply stop providing him the food/water/shelter that he needs to live, knowing that his life depends on my providence?

What is the loving thing to do?

Good thing you also noticed the breadth and depth of APL's analysis. That was ..... captivating.

Did God commit euthanasia with Moses and Aaron? He put them to death painlessly, did He not?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Sigh...
Asygo! We have an example: God's treatment of Satan.

That's not news. What do you think God is going to do with Satan? Keep providing him with life so that he can continue doing what he's doing until he decides to kill himself, without any input from God? What happens to those who disagree with God's ways? What is the loving thing to do?

Put it into context of your example of your wayward son, that is Satan. Did God "take out" Satan to prevent all the destruction he was doing and has caused to happen? Why? It sounds like you are holding God responsible for the origin and/or continuation of sin. Force: The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened.

God does not say, "Love me, or I'll kill you."

This is suicide, not euthanasia.

Definiton of euthanasia by the BBC's Ethics Guide


How can the motivation here be hatred?

1. Just because God has not done something according to your schedule doesn't mean He's not going to do it. It is arrogant to think that God is subject to your ideas of punctuality.

2. So your idea of love would have the father enabling the son to hurt himself and others indefinitely. Sin would be immortalized. That's not a new idea, but it is not God's idea.

3. God says: I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Why would you die? Turn and live.

Time? Did I mention time? Hm - let's see, you brought up the idea of what to do about your son that was out to destroy everything in his path and what to do about it. Now are you suggesting that it is OK to let said son mame, rape, torture and kill but then stop at a given point in the future, no time given? That is the implication of your comment. Satan has been allowed to destroy God's creation, but there will be a point when it will stop. Why was sin permitted?

OH - you add a new word, "indefinitely". Where did I ever say that??? But it is nice to add if you want to demonize your opponent. But you are implying in #1 that God has enabled Satan to hurt himself and others.

Exactly, turn and live! Christ came to save His people FROM their SIN. Not from what God was going to do to them if they refused to love Him back. Sin pays it wage, death. Christ demonstrated this at Calvary - Sin killed Christ. The Father did not execute His Son.

Perhaps you should read EGW, PP chapter 1 and GC chapter 29 AGAIN.

He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man.

MM - don't leave out all the quote! "God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself." "The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority." Etc. Sinners die, but not by execution of God. Sin pays its wage. PUt it all together!

asygo, I understood you not to be asking a question, but making a statement that you would kill your son. Am I not correct?

MM, the question was if One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love? Green had said that "the distinguishing principle between "murder" and "killing" in the Bible can be condensed to one concept: LOVE".

So what are you saying? That one cannot distinguish whether God is love?

It is not the children's right to discipline their siblings. It is the domain of parents. Siblings would generally do so in retaliation, jealousy, anger, etc. The parents do it in justice.

God is our Father.

I'll leave the other dots for the reader to connect.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

APL, the Bible and the SOP are too plain to misunderstand. There are times when Jesus destroys. There are times when He commands holy men and holy angels to destroy. And there are times when He permits evil men and evil angels to destroy (within the limits He sets and enforces).

Deuteronomy 32:20-30
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very fraudulent generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in my anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs on them; I will spend my arrows on them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts on them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD has not done all this.
28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?

Who did what and how?

Incorrect. The sentences with question marks were questions, not statements. What do you think a loving father would do? Just sit there and watch his son kill and destroy? Or should he be a bit more proactive?

No. The father should not kill his son.

Ignoring your inserted contradictions with your previous statements, are you suggesting that siblings cannot show love? Do you equate your meaning of "justice" to love?

You must have misunderstood. I did not ask if the father should kill his son. My question was much more open-ended, and requires an action, not a non-action, as a response. Again: What is the loving thing to do?

Or perhaps I misunderstood your response. You say the father should not kill the son. Is that the extent of the father's response? The father can watch his son hurt himself and others, and it is loving as long as he doesn't kill his son? He can continue to provide his son with the resources necessary to continue his destructive behavior, and it is loving as long as he doesn't kill his son? Is it sufficient merely to refrain from killing his son?

If the father decides to deprive the son of food and water, given that the son cannot provide it for himself, does that qualify as killing his son? Or can the father deprive his son of life-giving resources and still meet your non-killing requirement? Or if the son begs his father to "unplug" him from life, or maybe the father gives the son the tools he needs to kill himself, does that still satisfy your non-killing criteria?

You missed a category (again!). The son has tools to kill himself, the Father only has to let him use them. This is because you do not see sin as the thing it is. Sin is the problem. It is sin that kills. It was sin that killed the Son of God and it is sin that destroys the sinner in the end. Christ came to save us not from Himself, but from sin.

We cannot force all the stories to fit one model.

Deuteronomy 32, Who did what and how? Use the plain reading you advocate.

I guess I was approaching it like a Dave Ramsey point of view. People call in saying shouldn't we go in debt if such-and-such happens, or what about this, or that, or our circumstances require it.

The response is: going in debt is not a solution. All kinds of situations and emergencies come up, but no matter what, the solution always is: not to go further into debt.

So until you agree killing the son is not a solution, you won't be any more open to exploring other solutions as the debtors are.

But do you agree, killing his son is not loving and not a solution?

Do you mean by using force to deprive his son? And if your son is killing others, why do you suggest he does not have the tools to kill himself? You did say, "should I just wait for him to eventually kill himself,".

You can get gazelle intense all you want, but if your family gets into a car wreck that puts everybody in critical condition, and your only solution is to put $50 a week into a fund with a 10% annual return, you will all die like a gazelle worrying about eating unhealthy grass while the cheetah is on its tail.

I'm asking you for solutions, but all you have is what is NOT a solution. Are you convinced that there is a solution? Maybe you're hoping I can help you with some ideas. I can, but first you have to understand the problem.

If you have solutions, please share.

Do you agree killing your son is not a solution?

Here is an inspired commentary on Deuteronomy 32:

Here are examples of rebellion and punishment:


There are those who will question God's love and His justice in visiting so severe punishment for words spoken in the heat of passion. But both love and justice require it to be shown that utterances prompted by malice against God are a great sin. The retribution visited upon the first offender would be a warning to others, that God's name is to be held in reverence. But had this man's sin been permitted to pass unpunished, others would have been demoralized; and as the result many lives must eventually have been sacrificed. {PP 408.2}

YES! I agree with EGW, even though your quote is on different verses than I quoted. My question to you is: WHO DID WHAT AND HOW?

MM, what is justice, but the freedom to choose.

And what is mercy, but the opportunity to repent.

The Jews disobeyed and rebelled. Jesus disciplined them.

It all depends on the answers to the questions you didn't answer. Would depriving the son of life-giving resources count as killing?

Do you mean by using force to deprive your son?

Depends what you mean by force. The father just stops giving the son anything he requires to live. No more anything. As if the father did not exist. Does that count as the father killing the son?

Given that the son is able to go out and "hurt, injure, damage, and kill as many as he can", I would say, no.

So if I refused to feed and clothe my son and let him starve and freeze to death, I'm still in the clear?

BTW, just because one is able to "hurt, injure, damage, and kill as many as he can" does not mean that such a one is self-existent. He may still need help from others in order to live.

Given that you said: It seems to me that your son would be "self-existent".

Me thinks you are attempting to make your rhetorical question into a real question and you are having problems doing it. Otherwise, you are trying to take some rather odd and obtuse situation and make generalities out of it. Which still comes back that killing your son is not an option. If your son is suffering from mental problems, perhaps a loving thing to do is seek help for him rather than killing him.

Deut 22:8 "When you build a new house, then you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you may not bring guilt of bloodshed on your household if anyone falls from it.

Why? The one who fails to build a parapet would not harbor hate to those who fell, he would not be planning their deaths, he merely had other things to do and the death was only an accident. If the commandment somehow makes some sort of distinction between killing and murder, then why this statement?

Isn't this really saying there is not distinction, that accidents can happen, but one should do all in their power to prevent them? Isn't this what love really is about rather than killing those who disagree with you?

Just because one is able to hurt and kill does not mean one is self-existent. My son could do all sorts of damage, but if I stop feeding and clothing him, he would die shortly after. Consider Satan. Self-governing does not imply self-existent.

Or maybe I misunderstood what you are trying to say. Are you trying to say that if God just went away completely, and ceased all interactions with Satan, that Satan would still continue to exist? That would be self-existent.

Me thinks you thinks.

Isn't it odd that APL and Kland have no problem with Jesus withdrawing HIs protection and permitting evil men and evil angels to cause unspeakable carnage - carnage that often includes the suffering and death of innocent women and children.

Actually MM - you have bigger problem as you have no good explanation for all the suffering and death of children that is happening now! And you believe that murdering people in war is an acceptable thing.

God has given us freewill. If we use it to reject God, in the end, He will tell us, "thy will be done".

MM, I understand you are attempting to contrast what you see as two views.

I see you saying that giving people free choice is worse than seeking out and killing people.

Your responses indicate you agree with my observation. It is indeed odd you have no problem believing Jesus permits evil men and evil angels to murder innocent women and children. In our justice system people who have the power to prevent murder and do not act are considered culpable.

Are you accusing God of being culpable? Or perhaps you believe that God can't stop the violence that is happening now. If not, why can He not stop it?

That He does not stop it now does not imply that He cannot or will not stop it in the future. Extrapolation must be done with care.

How do you stop a rape or a murder in the future, after it has already happen? MM is saying that if one can stop it and does not, then they are culpable. No need to extrapolate, we are in the thick of things now.

Not necessarily. But if you are saying that those who could prevent a murder are "culpable", then what about those who actually do the murder?

God's will is what will be done in the end.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You believe Jesus chooses to permit evil men and evil angels to murder innocent women and children. You also believe He can prevent it without violating free will or the rules of engagement. You do not have a problem with it. You are okay with it.

The point is you are okay with Jesus permitting evil men and evil angels murdering innocent women and children.

The point is you are accusing God of being culpable because He can stop murders and rape and does not.

You believe Jesus causes evil men and evil angels to murder innocent women and children. You also believe He uses force and coercion to get His way. I'm okay with free will. You do not have a problem with force and coercion.

APL, you are avoiding the point. You believe Jesus pedmits it. You believe He can prevent it without violating freewill.

Kland, you cannot support your absurd accusations. Otherwise you would have quoted me. You, on the other hand, truly believe Jesus permits it. Somehow you think it makes Jesus look good. But I can assure you it does not. Unbelievers despise the idea.

I have a friend who stabs people in the neck while his accomplices watch him do it, and even help him. The one being stabbed usually submits willingly to this. They trust my friend and believe him when he says it will all be ok in the end.

Yes, my friend is "culpable" for stabbing people. It's just that some people trust him while others don't.

I don't know what you are referring to as absurd. If you are referring to:
"You believe Jesus causes evil men and evil angels to murder innocent women and children."

then if we were to take a vote here asking if others know you have said that Jesus causes disease, death, and destruction, what do you think the results would be?

If we were to do a search where you have said Jesus causes disease, death, and destruction, how many hits do you think it would come up with?

How does saying Jesus causes disease, death, and destruction make Him look good? Why do you think giving people freedom of will does not?

Kland, you did not support your absurd accusation.

Neither have you addressed my observations concerning your belief Jesus permits evil men and evil angels to murder innocent women and children.

MM - have you read the book of Job?

I see the word "absurd" thrown about in the posts above. Maybe it's a good word for this thread as the discussion only gets more "absurd" as two poles refuse to see the whole.

Yes, God gives mankind freedom to choose to follow Him, or follow Satan,
Yes, sin and satan have caused death, misery, violence, and pain to reign in this world. This earth is the showcase of what sin and satan does.

Yes, God at times withdraws His protecting spirit from people who reject Him.
Just remember that it is God Who sustains life and all things, if He withdraws completely death is absolutely certain.
It is ONLY due to God's sustaining power that we have life and the relative good things we enjoy.

Yes, God sustains life and offers protection from the full evil of sin and satan, but also allows the results of sin and satan's evil proposes to bring trials even to people who accept God.

Yes, God will render justice, for we are told to love and try to win even our enemies and to leave vengeance to Him He will repay and deliver His people in the end.
Yes, there have been times when God stepped in to deliver His people from their enemies, by removing HIS gift of life from those enemies.

There is a day of justice coming when everyone receives their "reward" from God, those who accepted life and righteousness from God will be rewarded with eternal life.
Those who rejected that gift of life and chose evil will be rewarded with eternal death.

Yes, everyone will understand before that takes place that there is no life or happiness apart from God -- that sin only brings death and misery. That choosing sin, is choosing death, because God's law is not some arbitrary law restricting happiness, but is the very foundation of peace and happiness and joyous life.

The concept that sin brings disease, misery, pain, and death is correct.
But let's not mix that up with some idea that sinners have any life of their own within themselves that God has no right to take away from them.
Every breath is a gift from God. Every heartbeat is a gift from God. All God needs to do is remove His sustaining power and death is certain.
If God choses for life to continue, it will continue no matter what any created being does.




When I read the arguments in this thread, I better understand why God, in the old testament took responsibility for the good and bad that came upon His people. It avoided such strange arguments as we see on these threads, and basically, in the end, He is in control.

It avoided the rationalizing that satan works with God. Like the concept that satan opened the earth under Korah, Dathan and company to stop the rebellion that he started. Or satan concocting the plagues that fell on the Egyptians to free Israel from slavery that he wanted to keep them in. Or that Satan pushed down the walls of Jericho so Israel could conquer the city for God.

You can be sure that satan wanted the Korah rebellion to continue -- not to stop it. You can be sure satan wanted the Israelites to remain slaves in Egypt, he was on Pharoah's side not working against Pharoah and for Israel. You can be sure satan wanted his pagans to keep Canaan, not have God's people inhabit that land.

God obviously wanted His people to realize that He was in control, and in no way working with satan, and that when prophets came telling them God was sending punishments upon them it was punishment from God, whether He simple removed His protection and allowed foreign nations to harass or conquer them, or actively withheld the rain for three years.

God's strange act is Him letting his creatures have what they have chosen. It is not an imposed penalty.

Have you read the book of Job?????

Dedication, there are times when Jesus causes disease, death, and destruction. There are times when He commands holy angels and holy men to cause death. There are times when He permits evil men and evil angels to cause death. He is in control. There is nothing absurd about it.

APL, you are avoiding my point.

Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {MH 113.1}

God NEVER causes sickness, disease or death. Never. If you do not agree, find, but you will have to agree to disagree.

MM - have you read the book of Job? You should.

I think most people believe that if God wants something to happen, it will. If bad things happen, then God must have let it happen for some good reason, for a divine purpose. The Bible teaches that not everything happens according to God's will. There are some events that happen that are not God's desire, not His will. I think most people believe that bad events fall into 2 categories:

1) God wants to prevent something and He does prevent it.
2) God wants to prevent something but chooses not to for a divine purpose.

In which category does rape, murder and child molestation fall into? #1 or #2? Does God ever choose to let evil happen? Is there ever a divine purpose for rape, murder and child molestation? No, never. Is there a third category?

Jesus teaches how to pray. Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Where is God's will happening today? Where is it not happening? Why do we pray for something to happen if it is already happening? The point is God's will is NOT happening on planet earth today. Matthew 6:10 is proof positive that it is not happening.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

Is it possible to reject God's will? Is it possible to prevent God's will from happening in some situation? Some theologians say that God will always happens.

Is it possible for prevent something from happening according to God's will for all eternity?

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

How many does God will to be saved? ALL. Are all saved? If not, then it is possible to prevent for all eternity something that is God's will.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Does God will that all be saved? YES. This is God's will. Will it happen? NO.

The Bible teaches that not everything happens according to God's will. Not everything happens according to divine reason!

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Liberty = freedom.

Psalms 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's; But the earth He has given to the children of men.

Whose will is ultimately being does on planet earth. HINT: it is NOT the devil. Human beings' will is being done. We can't say the devil MADE me do it. When a woman is raped or a child abused, is their will being violated? YES. Is this unfair? YES. We pray for God's will to happen on earth as it is in heaven. Free moral agents can violate the will of other free moral agents, and it is not always fair. This is again proof that God has nothing to do with it.

There are some things that by their very nature, even an omnipotent God cannot do.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Freedom, in order to be genuine, must also be irrevocable. Then when things happen that God does not want, He cannot always prevent them. Genuine freedom comes with the elements of chance and subsequent risk, chance that our will goes against God's will.

If someone has genuine freedom, and can choose option "A" or option "B", and you want them to choose "A", the good choice, but to be free, they can choose either "A" or "B". If they can't choose "B", the bad choice, they do not actually have freedom. There are things that God wants to prevent, but because of freedom, He can't. Can God do anything He wants? NO. To rephrase, are there things that God can not do? YES.

Can God MAKE you love Him? NO. Forced love is a not love.

Is God in control of everything? Is everything that happens God will? We answered that already, NO. It is better to know that God is love. Are there things that God IS in control of? YES. But those things that He is in control of, He has not granted freedom in, do you see difference? Why do we pray? Is it important to pray? Does prayer guarantee that something will happen? No, but it gives God permission to exercise His will.

Ecclesiastes 9:11 I returned and saw under the sun that- The race is not to the swift, Nor the battle to the strong, Nor bread to the wise, Nor riches to men of understanding, Nor favor to men of skill; But time and chance happen to them all.

Is God controlling everything if He has given us freedom? If He has granted freedom, is there not then a change that His will, will not happen? He can not control everything and preserve freedom. God has chosen to limit Himself in order to give us freedom.

So there are situations #1 where God can prevent something and He does, and #2 there are situations where God can prevent something but chooses not to for a good reason. But there is a third category according to the scriptures #3, there are things that God wants to prevent, but because of freedom, He can't.

We can never look into the eyes of someone who has been raped and tell them that God could have prevented this, but He choose to allowed this to happen for a good reason. The truth is that we have a God that wants to prevent these terrible things, but can not because He has given us freedom.

So, #3: there are many things happening on this planet that God does not want to happen. They do not happen because God has a reason for them, a purpose for them to happen. An enemy has done this!!!

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

If we say that child molestation and rape happen because God choose not to intervene for some good reason, this is speaking evil and a lie and is sick and woe to those that say this. You can't say that God allowed these for a good reason. You can say that these happened because of freedom. We choose how to exercise that freedom, and that freedom can be used to hurt each other, and God hates it.

Prayer gives God more freedom to act, but does not guarentee the outcome. Read Daniel 10. Daniel prayed for how long? 3 full weeks. When did God answer Daniels prayer? Verse 12 tells us it was the first day. Why the delay? A free moral agent worked against God's messenger for 21 days, God's will was delayed! Prayer does not convince God to act. It enables God to act! God does not say that bad things will not ever happen to us.

God does promise us these things 4 things:

1) Some day He will wipe away every tear: Revelation 21:4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." Evil will come to an end

2) Once evil is done, it will never happen again: Nahum 1:9 What do you conspire against the LORD? He will make an utter end of it. Affliction will not rise up a second time. Not because the universe is forced to not sin!

3) God goes through all the pain with us.

Matthew 25:40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' Matthew 25:45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

What this tells us, that every child that is molested, every woman that is raped, God goes through it too. God has suffered though ever rape and murder. It is God's will that no woman be raped and that all murders prevented? Yes, but then you have violated freedom, and God can not force us to love Him. There is no love unless we are free. And if we choose not to love, WE will cause pain to all around us.

4) Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

God wants good to happen to everyone. But He can only do it for us if we will let Him.

Look at Joseph: Genesis 50:20 You plotted evil against me, but God turned it into good, in order to preserve the lives of many people who are alive today because of what happened.

It was NEVER God's will that Joseph go into slavery! But God brought good out of it. God did not orchestrate Joseph's slavery, but He did bring good out of it. God does promise He will bring good out of the bad.

APL, thank you sharing what you believe. The idea there are times when Jesus will not prevent evil because He values the freewill of evil doers more than He values the will of innocent victims is truly unsettling. I choose to believe Jesus is free to take sides when two wills collide. For example, when a thief wills to steal I believe Jesus is free to send help to prevent it. When a rapist wills to rape I believe Jesus is free to send help to prevent it. When a murderer wills to murder I believe Jesus is free to send help to prevent it. Jesus can do so without violating freewill.

Well said, and I agree.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

If God is free to intervene, the you need to explain why He does not. Unfortunately, that falls in to category #2 as I have outlined it and that is not a good answer. Does God ever let a rape happen for the good of it? Why in your estimation does God let rapes happen?

Very well.

I searched for "disease, death, and destruction" with your name on it and there were 12 hits in the last 2 years.

For the most recent appalling absurdity in detail, see #169494.

APL, I believe Jesus permits horrible things to happen for reasons that make sense to Him. It's not for a greater good. Instead it's the lesser of evils. There are a million ways things can play out. Jesus does not leave it to fate. Nor does He leave it to sin, self, or Satan. Jesus earned the right on the cross to manage the outcome of the choices people make. We might not find out why He caused, commanded, or permitted things to play out the way they do until we are in Heaven when He explains it. "Now I know in part, but then shall I know".

But the fact remains - You believe Jesus permits evil to befall innocent women and children because He refuses to the violate the will of evildoers.

... violate the "free will"...

What do you tell a woman who is raped? It was God's perfect plan that you were raped? What do you tell them?

You tell them YES - God wanted you raped, since your belief as outlined above, God controls ALL outcomes.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

My statement is true. Your statement is false.

Kland, do you not see the difference between what I wrote and what you are accusing me of?

Um, no. Why you are objecting to what you freely state, I do not know.

Here's what you are accusing me of - "You believe Jesus causes evil men and evil angels to murder innocent women and children." I have never said such a thing. And you have not quoted anything I said saying otherwise.

MM - you have said it is God will to to allow murder and rape.

Yes, Jesus always does the best thing in light of the great controversy. His options are miserable. But He is perfect and always works to ensure the one and only best option plays out. He is free to manage the outcome of human choices. He can stop or start anything without violating freewill. Death, disease, destruction, theft, rape, murder, abductions, war, terrorism, etc are permitted to play out in ways that make sense to Jesus. His hands are not tied. Evil men and evil angels are not free to act or attack as they see fit. They can do no more than Jesus is willing to allow. And Jesus works actively to ensure they do not exceed the limits He Himself establishes and enforces. Jesus is in control - not human choices, not evil men, not evil angels.

APL and Kland, you guys believe Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to murder innocent women and children. APL, you believe He does so because He is unwilling to violate their freewill. But what about the freewill of the innocent victims?

Well, MM, it seems you are saying something different than what I quoted you as saying in the past, albeit even near past. It seems now that you are saying Jesus only permits or allows disease, death, and destruction to happen rather than causing them to happen.

So, with this new view, who do you say killed Saul? That is, did Jesus slay and/or cause others to kill Saul?

You really don't see the difference, do you? Here's the difference:

1. I believe there are times when Jesus causes death, disease, and destruction.

2. I do not believe there are times when Jesus causes evil men or evil angels to murder innocent women and children.

Jesus never causes or forces free moral agents to do anything. In the case of King Saul, Jesus did not work to influence him not to end his own life. Jesus could have used His powers of persuasion to dissuade him. But He did not. He chose to permit it. For example, in the case of Abraham and Isaac, Jesus commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. At the last second, as the knife was on the way down, Jesus persuaded Abraham not to sacrifice Isaac. The outcome in each case was due to the actions of Jesus. In the case of King Saul, Jesus acted not to act to prevent it.

Well maybe I got you mixed up with Green. But I thought for sure you believe Jesus causes evil men and angels to kill people.

So you don't believe Jesus ever causes evil men to kill men, women, and children, to totally destroy whole cities, etc.?

My apologies then.

Thank you. Apology accepted.

What I don't understand is how you can feel okay about Jesus withdrawing His protection and permitting evil men and evil angels to murder innocent women and children. Can you please explain?

It appears to me that you objecting to us believing the same about this as you do. Maybe this is another case where it looks to me you are saying the same thing but you see a difference.

You say that APL and I believe Jesus withdraws protection and permits horrible things to happen. You believe Jesus permits horrible things to happen.

Can you explain?

Oh, I believe it, too. It's just that I don't see why you believe it. I mean, it doesn't make Jesus look too good, and you're all about Jesus looking good. Some of the unbelievers I know hate Jesus because of what you believe about Him. How do you explain it to them?

Do you mean how some ask, Why do bad things happen to good people?

Of which I ask, Given the circumstances, why do good things happen to anyone?

Good answer. But, no, what I mean is - I know people who hate Jesus because they believe as you do, namely, Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angel to murder innocent women and children. For example, they believe Jesus is allowing evil men to murder innocent women and children during the ISIS Crisis. They want to know why Jesus doesn't step in and protect them. They have freewill, too. Why can't Jesus honor their choices to live safe and sound?

What do you tell them? Do you avoid question? Do you ask a different question pertaining to a different topic?

MM - how do you tell people that it is God's will that they are raped, abused, their loved ones murdered? Do you tell them that God actually causes sickness, disease, and death? I can look victims in the eye and tell them that God did not do this and it was never God's will. How do you tell them it was God's will? You should re-read this POSTING

What draws people to repentance (changing of mind)? The fear that if they don't change, God will torture and kill you if you don't love Him? What is it that draws people to repentance? What is the Bible answer?

I tell them Jesus is in control. His hands are not tied. He permits things to play out in ways that make sense to Him. Sin forces Him to choose the one and only best way out of millions of possibilities. It saddens Him. When we get to heaven He will explain His reasons. We will agree wholeheartedly. By faith we take comfort in knowing He is in control.

PS - As you know, I responded to the post you linked above. Again, thank you for sharing what you believe.

I think you are mixing "free will" with "rights". They can say they have a "right" to not be murdered and tortured. But it has nothing to do with free will. In fact, with ISIS, it adequately demonstrates what "free will" is not. They say convert to Islam or we kill you. And that, is not free will.

Oh I know you responded to the post I linked to above. Green even thought it was a good post! But, let's look at how your responded.

You stated, without any Bible support as I provided in my post, that you "choose to believe" and you give an examples. When a rapist wills to rape, you "believe" Jesus is free to send help to prevent it. So how do you explain all the rapes that occur? The one being rape desired it? You can "choose to believe" what ever you want. What I want to know is what is Truth. Can you support your view and provide scripture to support it as I posted HERE?

APL, although I appreciate you sharing what you believe, I do not believe the texts you posted support your conclusions, namely, Jesus is not free to intervene on behalf of innocent victims.

By this, you put the blame clearly on God for the origin and continuation of sin, for He is in control of every outcome. Rape, child abuse and murder happen because He wants them to happen. Incredible...

It's a controversy. God is enabled to intervene through intercessory prayer. If someone is praying for God's protection for the individual involved, even if that individual may not himself or herself even desire God or His help, God can intervene. Such, I believe, was the case with Saul on his way to Damascus. Someone was following Jesus' doctrine in praying for his or her enemies, and God was thereby permitted to intervene.

God is limited somewhat in this controversy--He must play fair. Ellen White writes of Jesus, for example, "If Christ had a special power which it is not the privilege of a man to have, Satan would have made capital of this matter. But the work of Christ was to take from Satan his control of man, and he could do this only in a straightforward way."

If we are honest in seeking to serve God, obedient to His commands, and leaning on His strength through prayer--Satan cannot touch us, and our prayers are efficacious "to the tearing down of strongholds." "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

God is not limited in power where He is permitted to work. It is up to us to give Him permission.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

So Green - every woman who is raped had not asked God to stop it??? Is that the problem?

APL,

Over half of people who suffer headaches are dehydrated. Does that mean all headaches are caused by insufficient water intake?

You must have wisdom to understand these things. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. If you are protected by God through the prayer of faith, God will not allow anything to happen to you which will not be either for your best good or His glory. I believe Romans 8:28, do you?

Jesus was the most faith-filled Person ever. He was murdered. I'm sure His mother was praying for Him. How did it happen? For God's glory and our best good. Praise the Lord!

"In everything give thanks, for this is the will of God, in Christ Jesus, concerning you."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I know Romans 8:20. Do you know Isaiah 5:20? To say that a rape is good is an evil thing. Yet you and MM think that it is God's will that they happen. Let's give thanks for rape!!!

Sick...

APL,

Whether you agree or not, the Bible does not command us to give thanks for only the good things. Giving thanks does not equate to calling evil good. Evil is evil whether one chooses to be thankful to God or not.

If you want to call me sick for believing the Bible, please feel free. My foundation is unmoved.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Sin is only with those who disagree with you

So you admit it, we should give thanks for rape, child abuse and murder. And you believe it is God's will that these things take place. And you believe that the Bible says we should give thanks for these things! Rape, murder, and child abuse is evil and it is not a good thing, and we should never give thanks for evil.

For some reason you think your view makes Jesus look good. You believe Jesus is willing to allow evildoers to rape, murder, and steal because He respects their freewill more than He does that of their victims.

And your view make God look good? God wills that people are raped, abused and murdered? <shaking head in disbelief>

APL,

I have personally experienced rape and child abuse. Thankfully I have not been murdered. You know what? I can give thanks for these traumatic experiences that I have had in my life. They have helped me to be more sensitive to others who pass through similar experiences. They have helped me to know what it is like so that I can be of greater usefulness to such persons in my ministry.

Only those who have been raped may be able to understand the intense struggle required to forgive the offender/perpetrator. The feelings of hatred which the victim experience are no ordinary feelings, and seem to occur both violently and involuntarily in the victim. It takes God's help to be able to forgive. I am naturally a forgiving person, but I could not forgive in this case on my own power. It was impossible. I cannot explain it in words. But I am thankful to God that for His glory and honor I have passed through this trial, for it makes me a better gospel worker.

I debated whether or not even to share this. Perhaps I am merely casting pearls before swine. Turn again and rend me over this if you wish, but you will have God to answer to for so doing. The fact remains, I know whereof I speak. I am able to praise God for His grace to endure the trials I passed through, and in praising Him, I commit my life to His capable hands.

Here are two quotes from Mrs. White. The first one is from Ministry of Healing and shows that the giving of thanks demonstrates our faith and trust in God. The second quote shows that the Christian life should be one of constant joy and praise to God.





Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

It was NEVER God's will that you were raped or abused. NEVER. To say that God willed you to have these bad experience is not true! God can make good come out of all the evil that happens to us, but this in no way makes God responsible for the evil in the world. And on the day of final judgement, God will stand clear of blame for the existence or continuance of evil. It will be demonstrated that the divine decrees are not accessory to sin. Rape is sin. God is not accessory to sin. Murder is sin. God is not an accessory to sin. Don't blame God, making Him responsible for evil.

Thanking God is not the same as blaming Him, is it? At least, I don't look at it that way. Thanking Him means we trust Him. We trust that He will keep His promises to us, including that all things will work together for good. That doesn't mean God is "responsible" for evil, it means I trust God to take care of me, whether there is evil or good. Remember Job? Like that.

As he put it, "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD." After praising the Lord in this manner after the loss of his wealth and family, the Bible says "In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly."

It is no sin to praise the Lord in everything--for the Bible even asks that we do so.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Job did not know why he was afflicted. What he knew, is that he could trust God, that God was not one to bring affliction on to people, but Job did not know what we know. He friends said that the trouble came on him from God, Job knew that was not the case.

What you have agreed with MM on is that it is GOD'S WILL that trouble, rape, abuse, and murder happens to people. That God can prevent any of these evils. God can't. And He can't because of the way He runs His government.

Was it God's will you were raped and abused? Was it? NO. NO. NO.

and note - don't think you are along in receiving abuse...

APL,

Life (on this planet) may not be "fair." But we all have a chance to put our trust in God. It IS God's will that we have freedom to choose. It is NOT God's will that anyone should be harmed. As long as there is no sin, there is no conflict. When sin happened, there were victims. There still are victims. This is a result of God's will to give freedom of choice. Victims are not the result of God's own choice. There is a fine line there. I hope you can see it.

It IS God's will, however, that the universe should see sufficient results of sin as to be inoculated against it forever. No one will want to return to this vomit again when once the sin experiment is over. Until then, the experiment does continue. There is still vomit. There are victims everywhere...including all of us. Some of us have received more "inoculations" than others, or in different areas of character. That is fine. No two people will have the exact same experience...but guess what? God's grace is sufficient for all.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Finally you agree!!! Is it NOT God's will that anyone should be harmed, that mean no rape, no abuse, no murder. So why does it happen? You an MM have insisted that it is God's will. It is NOT God's will. Now if it is not God's will, WHY does it happen? I have answered this in a long post above.

MM says that if God wants to stop an evil thing from happen, He can. In Daniel 10:12-13 Then he said to me, "Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your mind to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words. 13 The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, so I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of Persia.

Right there you see that there was a delay in getting an answer to Daniel. Why? Because if was God's will that the answer be delayed? Nope. Something PREVENTED the answer from coming immediately. Huh...

You misrepresented my view. I accurately stated your view.

Luke 11:2 And he said to them, When you pray, say, Our Father which are in heaven, Hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Why pray for what is already happening? God's will is not being done on earth as it is in heaven.

You say you believe it too. That you understand why you believe it, but you just don't see why we believe it.

But then seem to argue there's a difference. I guess I'm having trouble seeing any difference.

The above is only one way Jesus maintains control. There are times when He causes, times when He commands, and times when He permits. He always manages the outcome of choices in the one and only best way.

You misrepresented my view. Jesus is willing to permit evil men to do evil things to innocent people for reasons that make sense to Him. This is not the same as you saying it is Jesus' will. What you mean is totally different than what I mean. I accurately stated your view - You believe Jesus is willing to allow evildoers to rape, murder, and steal because He respects their freewill more than He does that of their victims.

Quote MM: "He respects their freewill MORE than He does that of their victims".

Have I ever said that? Nope. Complete fabrication and or complete misunderstanding.

Quote MM: "Jesus is willing to permit...." and it is not His will. Your logic is now approaching that of Greens. Like God kills but He is not a killer. God destroys, but He is not a destroyer. Now, MM says God is willing but it is not His will.

You wrote: "So there are situations #1 where God can prevent something and He does, and #2 there are situations where God can prevent something but chooses not to for a good reason. But there is a third category according to the scriptures #3, there are things that God wants to prevent, but because of freedom, He can't.?

Because of whose freedom - evil men or innocent people?


Not His will like you mean it. You mean it as in Jesus wants evil men to hurt innocent people. I mean it as in He is willing to allow it to play out that way for reasons that make sens to Him.

Because of whose freedom - evil men or innocent people? YES.

Willing to to allow rape, abuse, murder... And these are things you insist God can prevent at any time. As you say, God is in control of everything, so if rape happens, that is what God wanted to happen. And you believe that God will also kill those He thinks need killing. Sin is not much of an evil thing in this scenario and the outcome of sin is completely controlled by God.

1. You mean it as in Jesus wants evil men to hurt innocent people.

2. I mean it as in He is willing to allow it to play out that way for reasons that make sens to Him.

". . . the outcome of sin is completely controlled by God."

I believe Jesus is free to control the outcome of evil choices.

So if a person chooses to rape another individual, Jesus empowers him to do so.

Yeah - taking that tack, when you comfort a woman (or man) who was raped, you can with a kind voice tell them that God allowed it because it was the best thing to do...

Why we we pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven is God's will is being done on earth? It is because God's will IS NOT being done on earth.

APL,

God's will is done in heaven, right? Do you think His will is not done on earth?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The will of God is expressed in the precepts of His holy law, and the principles of this law are the principles of heaven. The angels of heaven attain unto no higher knowledge than to know the will of God, and to do His will is the highest service that can engage their powers. {MB 109.1}

So Green, if there are rapes, abuses, murders, are these God's will? The answer should be clear.

Was it God's will that there be war in Heaven? Was God's will done in Heaven at that time?

You see, I believe it was. God willed that His creations have free choice. He may not have desired them to choose as they did, but in choosing for themselves, they were exercising their own free will, a freedom to choose which God had willed them to have.

That same principle is now at play on this planet. God wills us to have the freedom to choose. We have a wonderful privilege: the right to be wrong. When all have learned the distinction between right and wrong so well that they will never forget their lessons, He will put an end to the pain and misery of sin once and for all, destroying sin and sinners in the sight of an enlightened throng of citizens in His kingdom who see His great justice in acting as He does. Those citizens will never again choose sin, not because their power to choose has been revoked, but because they will never desire it again. God wills for everyone to have the power to choose both now and always. It is in precisely this sense that God does not use force and never will. He will never remove the freedom to choose. Note that this does not mean He will never remove the freedom to live. Nor does it mean that He will never punish.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Ah, so you still believe that rape, abuse and murder ARE God's will... These things which violate the precepts of His law. Quoting Green, "We have a wonderful privilege: the right to be wrong". We have a wonderful privilege to rape and murder! Fantastic. EXCEPT, we do not. 2 Timothy 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

You believe that is was God's will that sin exist! What is perhaps even worse, you believe that after willing that sin exist, that God will then execute sinners in the end. What freedom is that?

I don't think you understand what sin is or what sin does. Sin blocks our freedom. The only reason we have the power to choice is because God has intervened. As EGW writes: Satan tempted man to sin, as he had caused angels to rebel, that he might thus secure co-operation in his warfare against Heaven. There was no dissension between himself and the fallen angels as regards their hatred of Christ; while on all other points there was discord, they were firmly united in opposing the authority of the Ruler of the universe. But when Satan heard the declaration that enmity should exist between himself and the woman, and between his seed and her seed, he knew that his efforts to deprave human nature would be interrupted; that by some means man was to be enabled to resist his power. {GC 505.3}

Sin takes its victims as slaves, and removes their freedom, and this when it is fully developed, produces death, James 1:15 There is only freedom in the law of liberty, the law of God, James 1:25

Violation of the law of God brings slavery, not freedom. This is not God's will. The will of God is expressed in the precepts of His holy law, and the principles of this law are the principles of heaven. The angels of heaven attain unto no higher knowledge than to know the will of God, and to do His will is the highest service that can engage their powers. {MB 109.1}

I believe Jesus is free to control the outcome of evil choices.

I believe Jesus is willing to allow choices to play out the way they do for reasons that make sense to Him. He rarely shares the reasons with us. But by faith we trust Him. People who love and trust Jesus fare better than those who do not. People who get mad at Him and hate him are way worse off.

Jesus works to ensure evil men and evil angels do not exceed the limits He Himself sets. He permits them to choose evil but He reserves the right to manage the outcome of their evil choices. He is in control. They are free to choose but not free to exceed the limits Jesus establishes and enforces. Things play out the way they do because Jesus works to ensure they do not exceed His limits.

You also believe Jesus establishes and enforces limits. But you also believe Jesus respects freewill and allows evil choices to play out the way evildoers desire. How do you reconcile the two?

APL,

You claim that I am saying many things which I do not say, have not said, and do not believe. If you misunderstand me so easily, how shall I expect you to understand the Bible any more easily? My words, at least, are much plainer and in a modern English that should make them easy to understand.

I do not believe that rape and murder are good. I did not say they were. I said the freedom to choose was good. When you believe it is not good to have a freedom of choice, you will have placed yourself upon Satan's side of the question, for he it is who would like to use force to compel people.

It is certainly a privilege to be able to choose, even if that means choosing wrong. I stand by my statement. That does not mean that God wills for people to break His law. He willed only their freedom of choice.

That you cannot discern the difference between these two concepts is instructive.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You asked, if God's will being done on earth. You have stated since there is free choice, then YES. Am I wrong so far? But is it God's will that rape, abuse, and murder take place? God's law outlines God's will, and the answer is an unequivocal, NO. And why is it? Because violation of God's law violates other's free will. It makes the sinner to go into bondage.

If rape, abuse and murder is happening, is it God's will that they happen? By your definition, yes. But NO, God's will is not happening universally on earth. Why pray for that which we already have? God - may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven!

APL, there was war in heaven. Was war in heaven His will? No, of course not. But He was willing to permit it. The same is true here on earth. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Not only did Jesus permit war in heaven, He also fought and cast down to earth one-third of the angels. After He created A&E Jesus worked to ensure the evil angels did not tempt them above or beyond what He was willing to allow.

What if God had not allowed the war in heaven? Was the possible for Him to do? Or did He HAVE to let it play out? The Will of God is encoded in His law. It was never God's will that sin exist. God does not force allegiance. He grants freedom of will, that they may render Him voluntary service. The devil perverted that freedom. Now that sin has started, God has to let it play out to show the true nature of sin and it results. The results of sin is death, not execution by God as so many believe. Christ demonstrated the results of sin on the cross so that we are without excuse. God had to let sin play out or else the universe would have served Him from fear. We have no reason to be afraid of God.

Your logic is the equivalent of saying if God gives you money, it is His will that you spend it on beer, lottery tickets, and cigarettes. That logic is fallacious.

God has given us freedom of choice. This is His will. If we misuse our freedom, that is our will, it makes God sad, but He will not "fix the problem" by removing our freedom of choice.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Is it God's will that people are raped, abused and murdered? Yes or no?

Will God fix the problem by executing the sinner? yes or no?

I'm glad we can agree the prayer - "Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth" - is being answered. That is, Jesus permits things to play out in ways that make sense to Him. He works to ensure the outcome of evil choices do not exceed what He is willing to allow.

I believe Jesus is willing to allow choices to play out the way they do for reasons that make sense to Him. He rarely shares the reasons with us. But by faith we trust Him. People who love and trust Jesus fare better than those who do not. People who get mad at Him and hate him are way worse off.

Jesus works to ensure evil men and evil angels do not exceed the limits He Himself sets. He permits them to choose evil but He reserves the right to manage the outcome of their evil choices. He is in control. They are free to choose but not free to exceed the limits Jesus establishes and enforces. Things play out the way they do because Jesus works to ensure they do not exceed His limits.

You believe Jesus establishes and enforces limits. But you also believe Jesus respects freewill and allows evil choices to play out the way evildoers desire. How do you reconcile the two?

Yes, but I was talking about when you say there are times.

You say you believe it too. That you understand why you believe it, but you just don't see why we believe it.

But then seem to argue there's a difference. I guess I'm having trouble seeing any difference.

I guess I'm having trouble seeing any difference.

Couldn't Jesus respect freewill and allow evil choices to play out the way evildoers desire without exceeding limits He Himself sets?

Again, you seem to ignore that you are attempting to redefine what "free will" means. It does not mean "civil rights". But, if you wish to substitute in one definition for another, what do you say to those who object that God is siding with Satan's "right" to cause evil?

Kland, you agree with my summary of your view.

Is that a command?


If it is a question, then, I did not agree nor disagree. I only went with what you were saying. You seem overly confident that you are absolutely correct in knowing what APL believes and yet just as overly confident that APL is wrong about what you believe. It would not be out of line to think you believe the same about me. So why argue. I just meet you where you are.

If you wish to substitute in one definition for another, what do you say to those who object that God is siding with Satan's "right" to cause evil?

Kland, I accurately summarized your view. You believe Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to cause death, disease, and destruction. There is no doubt about it. You have made your view too clear to misunderstand.

You also believe Jesus allows evil men to hurt innocent women and children. You have not explained why.

You objected when I said you believe Jesus respects the freewill of evildoers more than He does the freewill of their innocent victims.

You think my definition of freewill misses the mark. I disagree with your assessment. People are free to choose. Jesus does not prevent it. But He does work to manage the outcome of choices.

For example, an evil man decides to murder an innocent child. Jesus respects the decision process. The evildoer is free to choose. Jesus does nothing to prevent the decision process. Nevertheless, Jesus is free to manage of the outcome of his choices. Jesus is free to protect the innocent child. He respects the wishes, prayers, desires, choices of the child and her parents. Their continual prayer is - "Deliver us from evil".

Jesus is free to intervene and, without violating freewill, work to ensure the innocent child escapes unharmed. There are millions of ways He can intervene without violating freewill. He can persuade the evildoer to change his mind. Or, He can impress someone to show up at the right moment. Or, He can impress the dog to force him to flight. Or, He can send an angel to intervene. Or, He can cause his health to fail. Jesus can do any one of these without violating freewill.

I find that entertaining.

And you agree with it. I have explained it before, and APL and Tom have explained it in depth. Repeatedly.


Exactly what are you saying here? Are they free to choose, or only to a certain extent?

And how is any of this in opposition to what you say I believe?

And can Jesus do nothing, and the innocent child does not escape unharmed, and the criminal does not get caught? This happens often. Is that still without violating freewill?

Well . . . do you agree or not?

I suspect you believe Jesus does not intervene because He respects freewill. He leaves evildoers free to do as they please. He does not work to prevent them from following through with their evil desires, choices. For example, if they choose to murder an innocent child they are free to do so. Jesus will not work to prevent it. The freedom to choose includes the freedom to follow through with their evil desires, choices.

I, on the other hand, do not believe Jesus forbids Himself from intervening and working to prevent evildoers from following though with their evil desires, choices. I believe He has every right to intervene and work to prevent it. He is also free not to intervene. He is not obligated to intervene. He is free to intervene and free not to intervene. He does or does not intervene for reasons that make sense to Him. As such, therefore, the outcome of choices is up to Jesus. He decides whether or not to intervene. If He chooses to intervene - the innocent child escapes unharmed. If He chooses not to intervene - the evildoer murders the innocent child.

What you say about what I believe falls short of being correct.

But either way, how is what you just said any different? Do you see both ways of what you said are really the same?

No. They are not the same. Do you think they are?

Ummm....

Why would you ask that question?

They are not the same. Don't know what you think about it.

So, yeah, you believe Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil men to rape and murder innocent women and children. You haven't said why. APL believes it is because Jesus respects freewill. I believe Jesus does so for reasons that make sense to Him. He is free to intervene and prevent evildoers from following through with their evil plans. He can do so without violating freewill.

The reason evil men get away with doing evil things (steal, rape, murder, etc) is because Jesus chooses not to intervene and prevent it. Why doesn't He always intervene and prevent evil? Why does He sometimes permit it? The answer is simple - For reasons that make sense to Him. Rarely does He explain those reasons here and now. In heaven, though, He will. And the reasons will make sense. They do not lessen the sorrow or sadness. It breaks Jesus' heart when circumstances force Him to permit evil. But we can trust Jesus to the manage the outcome of choices in the one and only best way. He will always do it right - no matter how much grief and sorrow it costs Him.

MM, "force Him to permit evil". Force? And you disagree with me that there are situations that God can not prevent, but say that situations "FORCE" Him to allow evil. Interesting! NOW, can you back this up with scripture to counter what I have posted from scripture?

Here is how Inspiration uses the word "force"


I am using the word "force" in a similar way.

Cannot. Will not. Why not? Because Jesus always does what is right and best. Sometimes He permits evil. Sometimes He prevents it. Why? For reasons that make sense to Him. It's that simple. Evildoers are free to choose. But Jesus is free to manage the outcome of their choices. Sometimes He explains why. Most of the time He does not.

Jesus have reasons, and you can't now know them. That is what you are saying. But is that the reality? I think we can know why sin was permitted and why it continues. God calls us to "come and reason together". We can know!

You have already told us why you think Jesus chooses not to intervene and prevent evildoers from murdering innocent women and children. You believe it is because He respects their freedom 1) to choose and 2) to do. However, this implies Jesus chooses to violate their freedom to do when He intervenes and prevents it.

Is that what you are saying the difference is?

That when Jesus steps in and prevents a rape, murder, etc., that is violating free will and He never violates free will, so then you re-categorize it and say it doesn't violate free will?

So basically you are saying when He doesn't prevent evil men from causing harm, you are saying He is respecting their free will and somehow that makes sense, that no one can understand other than Him?

Jeremiah 9:23-24 Thus said the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: 24 But let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD which exercise loving kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, said the LORD.

But some say we can't understand!

APL, you didn't address my point.

Kland, you missed the point.

MM - you missed my point.

I thought you were responding to my point. What is your point? Do you know what my point is?

Yes, you say you understand why there are times Jesus chooses not to intervene and prevent theft, rape, murder, etc. You call it the Third Category - "there are things that God wants to prevent, but because of freedom, He can't." "God has chosen to limit Himself in order to give us freedom."

"We can never look into the eyes of someone who has been raped and tell them that God could have prevented this, but He choose to allowed this to happen for a good reason. The truth is that we have a God that wants to prevent these terrible things, but can not because He has given us freedom."

"If we say that child molestation and rape happen because God choose not to intervene for some good reason, this is speaking evil and a lie and is sick and woe to those that say this. You can't say that God allowed these for a good reason. You can say that these happened because of freedom. We choose how to exercise that freedom, and that freedom can be used to hurt each other, and God hates it."

You say Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evildoers to cause evil. But what does it imply when Jesus chooses to intervene and prevent evil? Does it mean He violates freewill? Please list examples of Jesus intervening and preventing evil.

There are times when Jesus chooses not to intervene and prevent evil for reasons that make sense to Him - which is good. No, the evil act is not good. You say you understand why Jesus chooses not to intervene and prevent evil. You say it is because He chooses not to violate freewill. Evildoers are free 1) to choose and 2) to do evil.

But your understanding of why Jesus chooses to permit evil does not explain why He sometimes chooses to intervene and prevent evil. Your understanding implies Jesus violates freewill every time He chooses to intervene and prevent evil. According to the understanding I have been advocating it is clear Jesus is free to intervene and prevent evil. He can do so without violating freewill.

Yes, with no Bible or SOP support you hold this view.

What happens when a sinner's cup of iniquity if full? Example, Genesis 6:5 vs Genesis 15:16? What is the unpardonable sin? This condition the sinner no longer has any free will. He is a total slave to sin.

MM, you didn't address my question.

What question?

Do you believe Jesus is free to intervene and prevent evildoers from following through with their evil desires to steal, rape, murder, etc? For example:

1) Do you think Jesus is free to impress someone to show up at just the right time to prevent an evildoer from hurting an innocent woman or child?
2) Do you think Jesus is free to cause a gun to misfire when an evildoers pulls the trigger intending to murder an innocent woman or child?
3) Do you think Jesus is free to allow an evildoer to have a heart attack while attempting to hurt an innocent women or child in order to prevent it?
4) Do you think Jesus is free to work to prevent evildoers from exceeding the limits of evil He is willing to permit?

I highly doubt you will honor me by answering my questions. But I would love it if you would surprise me and answer them.


1) If they no longer possess the ability or freedom to choose are they culpable?
2) Can God hold them accountable for their evil deeds during the final judgment?
3) Do such people exist today? Do they harm innocent woman and children? If so, to what purpose does Jesus continue to give them breath and life?
4) Is Jesus free to intervene and prevent them from hurting innocent woman and children?

I have answered this in detail, and you have presented nothing to counter my lengthy posting on this topic. God is not responsible for every rape, all the abuse, and every murder that you accuse Him of!

You have also stated contrary comments. You say God is free to prevent evil, but then you say He is forced to allow it. If He is free to cause it, how is He FORCED to do it?

MM, do you believe Jesus is NOT free to 1-4?

APL I am not surprised you did not answer my question. I am disappointed.

As you know, I have said all of the above. There are times when all of the above is true. Circumstances dictate what Jesus chooses to do - for reasons that make sense to Him.

I'm disappointed you have not backup your thesis with scripture and/or the SOP. I'm disappointed you could not address the post where the answer are found.

Why do you think I haven't addressed your post? I just did (again).

What do you think I have not shown from the Bible or the SOP?

APL, do you believe Jesus is free to intervene and prevent evildoers from following through with their evil desires to steal, rape, murder, etc? For example:

1) Do you think Jesus is free to impress someone to show up at just the right time to prevent an evildoer from hurting an innocent woman or child?

2) Do you think Jesus is free to cause a gun to misfire when an evildoers pulls the trigger intending to murder an innocent woman or child?

3) Do you think Jesus is free to allow an evildoer to have a heart attack while attempting to hurt an innocent woman or child in order to prevent it?

4) Do you think Jesus is free to work to prevent evildoers from exceeding the limits of evil He is willing to permit?

1) If they no longer possess the ability or freedom to choose are they culpable?
2) Can God hold them accountable for their evil deeds during the final judgment?
3) Do such people exist today? If so, to what purpose does Jesus continue to give them life and breath?
4) Is Jesus free to intervene and prevent them from hurting innocent women and children?

MM, I'm disappointed you have not answered my question about how what you saying we are saying is any different than what you are saying.

MM, do you believe Jesus is NOT free to 1-4 of #170389?

Kland, you haven't said what you believe. I know you believe Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evildoers to rape and murder innocent women and children. What you haven't said is why you think Jesus does so. APL believes it is because Jesus is morally or legally bound by freewill to permit it, not to intervene and prevent it. To intervene and prevent is to violate freewill.

I believe Jesus does so "for reasons that make sense to Him." He is not morally or legally bound to respect the freedom to follow through with the desire to rape and murder innocent women and children.. They are free to desire, but not free to follow through. Whether or not they follow through is up to Jesus. He is free to intervene and prevent it. But not always. Sometimes circumstances force Him to permit it. Why? Again - "for reasons that make sense to Him." Not because He is morally or legally bound.

1) Do you think Jesus is free to impress someone to show up at just the right time to prevent an evildoer from hurting an innocent woman or child? Yes, of course.

2) Do you think Jesus is free to cause a gun to misfire when an evildoers pulls the trigger intending to murder an innocent woman or child? Yes, of course.

3) Do you think Jesus is free to allow an evildoer to have a heart attack while attempting to hurt an innocent woman or child in order to prevent it? Yes, of course.

4) Do you think Jesus is free to work to prevent evildoers from exceeding the limits of evil He is willing to permit? Yes, of course.

My answer to these kinds of questions demonstrates what I mean about Jesus permitting evildoers to desire evil but Jesus intervening and preventing them from following through with their evil desires. He does so without violating freewill. But the real question is why Jesus sometimes does not. Why He permits them to follow through. Again, I believe the answer is - "for reasons that make sense to Him." You haven't answered the question. Please do.

I do not know where I stated such.

I agree with you that Jesus is free to 1-4 of #170389.

But you did not answer my question.

MM, do you believe Jesus is NOT free to 1-4 of #170389?


I have said many times what I believe. You say you don't know what I believe. You say you don't know why Jesus permits evildoers to act. Do you know whether you believe Jesus is NOT free to 1-4 of #170389?

I know you believe Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to cause death, disease, and destruction.

I guess I don't know what you believe about the rape and murder of innocent women and children. Why does Jesus permit it? Why doesn't He intervene and prevent it?


I explained why - "for reasons that make sense to Him." Yes, Jesus is free on both accounts - 1) free to intervene and prevent, and 2) free not to intervene and prevent. However, Jesus always does the best thing. He never does the wrong thing. Does it mean, then, He is not truly free? No, of course not.

Jesus always gives evildoers the freedom to desire evil ideas and outcomes. But they are not free to follow through. Only if He permits it. And then only within the limits He sets and enforces.

What do you think I have not shown from the Bible or the SOP?

APL, do you believe Jesus is free to intervene and prevent evildoers from following through with their evil desires to steal, rape, murder, etc? For example:

1) Do you think Jesus is free to impress someone to show up at just the right time to prevent an evildoer from hurting an innocent woman or child?

2) Do you think Jesus is free to cause a gun to misfire when an evildoers pulls the trigger intending to murder an innocent woman or child?

3) Do you think Jesus is free to allow an evildoer to have a heart attack while attempting to hurt an innocent woman or child in order to prevent it?

4) Do you think Jesus is free to work to prevent evildoers from exceeding the limits of evil He is willing to permit?

1) If they no longer possess the ability or freedom to choose are they culpable?
2) Can God hold them accountable for their evil deeds during the final judgment?
3) Do such people exist today? If so, to what purpose does Jesus continue to give them life and breath?
4) Is Jesus free to intervene and prevent them from hurting innocent women and children?