Should the Body Discipline Members for disagreeing on 28FB

Mountain Man:Kland, what is the underlying motive for rejecting something as plain as Cain killed Able? Why would someone reject something so obvious? If they are so willing to reject something so obvious what else are they willing to reject? There is nothing trivial or light-hearted about rejecting things in the Bible that are so obvious. There are reasons why people do so. Those reasons cannot be good. Would you hold pastors or members in good and regular standing if they understood and rejected the obvious truths in the Bible? Yes, they are free to do so. But the church is free to discipline them. Even obligated.

Elle : Isn't this the same reasoning and spirit the little horn took to discipline their members?

MM: No. I don't think so. How do you envision the SDA Church exercising gospel order, church discipline (Matthew 18)? Do you know of any Bible truths necessary to believe to be translated alive when Jesus arrives?

Elle: I read Mat 18 very quickly and from what I got that it is the Father(the head) that disciplines His children(individuals of the body), I didn't see instructions for the body disciplining other members of the body. In the exception of Mat 18:15-20 where we find Jesus laying out 3 steps to win your brother back when a brother transgress against you personally. This is not about having different doctrinal beliefs. A transgression towards you is something like stealing, bearing false witness against you, etc...

Where do you see that it is written that the Church should discipline other members?

MM : Elle, gospel order and church discipline was practiced by the early Church. Councils were held and doctrines formulated. Members were required to abide accordingly.

E: What(or when) do you mean with "early church". Can you show me your source and tell me the year? We know the early church rapidly deteriorated into the little horn beast system extension within only 300 years. Just because that they did that in the past let’s say around 100yrs AD doesn’t mean it was Biblical and were following the Lord’s ways.

Let’s focus on what the Bible tells us. Is there support that says the Church body is to discipline members for not believing the same as the body?

MM : Please start a thread on this topic.

MM: Arnold, you are not arguing against the truthfulness, the biblical soundness and accuracy of the 28FB. You agree with the 28FB of the SDA Church. Your problem is not with the 28FB. Rather, your problem is with the SDA Church requiring baptismal candidates to agree with them and to live in harmony with them.


Arnold: I have no problem with the content of the 28 FB at this time. But there may come a time when the FB list changes or my beliefs change. Then I will have a problem with the content.

My problem now is with viewing the FB as the standard. The FB itself says that the Bible is our standard. Those who raise the FB as the authoritative standard are rejecting it.

I also have a problem with those who believe it is impossible for the FB to be wrong. History is littered with the carcasses of those who claimed infallibility and those they persecuted. I will not fall for that trap.

BTW, Philip did not require the FB for his baptismal candidates.


MM: Do you feel members and leaders should be free to disagree with one or more of the 28FB and maintain good and regular status and standing? For example, do you feel members and leaders should be free to reject the SDA Church interpretation of the 3AM (as articulated in the SOP)?


A: I feel that enforcement of the FB is an organizational issue, not a moral one. One can reject the FB and still be in good standing with God. But such a one can only be in good standing with the organization if the organization allows for freedom of thought.

MM: Well, it is obvious I am outnumbered on this thread. However, I'm glad the SDA Church voted to approve the 28FB. I'm also glad they print books like The Great Controversy.

A: Would it be righteous for us to take a vote and discipline you for disagreeing with the majority?


MM:I appreciate the humor. Really I do. However, if you were to vote to discipline me because I agree with what Ellen White wrote in The Great Controversy - Do you think the SDA Church would side with you?

On the other hand, would you vote to discipline members or leaders who reject the truth about the Sabbath and the state of the dead? Or, would you vote to grant them membership in good and regular standing?

A: That was intended to be as humorous as your idea that because a bunch a people voted the 28FB in, we must all submit to it. Indeed, it is a joke. If we were to vote to discipline you, it would carry as much moral weight as your beloved, GC-approved FB.

But to correct your misconception that you agree with the Great Controversy, keep this in mind: But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority—not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain “Thus saith the Lord” in its support. – {GC 595.1}

Your faith in the majority is misguided. The Bible is our only creed.


MM: On the other hand, would you vote to discipline members or leaders who reject the truth about the Sabbath and the state of the dead? Or, would you vote to grant them membership in good and regular standing?

A: I would vote them out of office, given that they cannot lead if they are blind. If they were not members of the church, I would ask them their motivation for joining a group whose pillar beliefs they do not share. They must count the cost. But in any case, I would ask them to join my SS class so we can search the Scriptures to see if these things are so.

A: From the intro to the 28FB:

Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church’s understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture. Revision of these statements may be expected at a General Conference session when the church is led by the Holy Spirit to a fuller understanding of Bible truth or finds better language in which to express the teachings of God’s Holy Word.

MM: The SDA Church has revised how we word and enumerate our FB, but they have never revised what we believe. Our FB exist today as they did when the Holy Spirit first confirmed them through the spirit of prophecy. We can rest assured He will never debunk them. They are as true now as they will be throughout eternity. Don't have to worry or wonder if He will change His mind. Truth continues to unfold as the scroll of time unrolls. We learn more details about the truth. Details that flesh out the truth. This, too, will continue throughout eternity.

MM : Here's a link to the latest news regarding proposed revisions to the 28FB.

A: “The language of our fundamental beliefs is intended to be a consensus statement of what we agree is the teaching of the Bible, and this language helps us achieve that goal.”

A "consensus statement" is a radically different thing from a "standard by which to judge and discipline each other." One reflects our beliefs, the other defines our beliefs.

MM : Beliefs you believe are Bible-based. Beliefs you believe are right and true. Beliefs you believe the Holy Spirit confirmed through the spirit of prophecy.

You also believe church discipline is necessary when members and leaders reject or refuse to live in harmony with the law of God.

I hope you believe church discipline is necessary when members and leaders reject or refuse to believe our distinctive doctrines, namely, the seventh-day Sabbath, the state of the dead, the spirit of prophecy, the 2300 day prophecy, the investigative judgment, the remnant church, and the mark of the beast.

A : You still don't get it. I think I have made my point as well as I can. You are still stuck on the truth of the beliefs, while I have been focused on the spirit of persecution in your heart.

As one preacher says, we do most of our sinning when we are right.

MM : I don't understand why you are opposing a summary of what you believe. You believe in church discipline. It is biblical. The church is obligated. It is not persecution. Ellen White describes it in no uncertain terms:



A: I do not protest against the 28 FB, if used as the document itself states: "A consensus statement of what we agree is the teaching of the Bible." I protest when it is used as a standard for orthodoxy. The 28 FB should not "be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith." That's the Bible's job. If someone is in error, take them to the Word of God, not the Cliff's Notes version.


MM: You cannot have it both ways - 1) the 28FB are right and true and biblical, and 2) the church cannot require her members and leaders to believe them.

Either the 28FB are right and true and biblical or they are not. If they are right and true and biblical then the church is obligated to require her members and leaders to believe them, to live in harmony with them. Refusal requires church discipline.

Members and leaders of the church are not free to reject foundation, fundamental Bible truths with impunity. Church discipline preserves the integrity of truth.

Should the Body Discipline Members for disagreeing on 28FB?

1. The Church.

Matthew
16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Acts
2:47 And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed [them] to prison.
11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Romans
16:5 Likewise [greet] the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

1 Corinthians
4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Ephesians
1:22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.

Colossians
1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the [epistle] from Laodicea.

1 Timothy
3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
5:16 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.

James
5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

3 John
1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth [them] out of the church.

John
20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

1 Corinthians
5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

John
2 Thessalonians
3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
3:15 Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother.

Galatians
1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

What would be the proper discipline? How should it be carried out?

In The Track of Romanism

Those who are enjoined to represent the attributes of the Lord's character, step from the Bible platform, and in their own human judgment devise rules and resolutions to force the will of others. The devisings for forcing men to follow the prescriptions of other men are instituting an order of things that overrides sympathy and tender compassion, that blinds the eyes to mercy, justice, and the love of God. Moral influence and personal responsibility are trodden underfoot. {TM 363.1}

The righteousness of Christ by faith has been ignored by some; for it is contrary to their spirit and their whole life experience. Rule, rule, has been their course of action. Satan has had an opportunity of representing himself. When one who professes to be a representative of Christ engages in sharp dealing and in pressing men into hard places, those who are thus oppressed will either break every fetter of restraint, or they will be led to regard God as a hard master. They cherish hard feelings against God, and the soul is alienated from Him, just as Satan planned it should be. {TM 363.2}

This hardheartedness on the part of men who claim to believe the truth Satan charges to the influence of the truth itself, and thus men become disgusted and turn from the truth. For this reason no man should have a responsible connection with our institutions who thinks it no important matter whether he has a heart of flesh or a heart of steel. {TM 363.3}

Men think they are representing the justice of God, but they do not represent His tenderness and the great love wherewith He has loved us. Their human invention originating with the specious devices of Satan, appears fair enough to the blinded eyes of men, because it is inherent in their nature. A lie, believed, practiced, becomes a truth to them. Thus the purpose of the satanic agencies is accomplished, that men should reach these conclusions through the working of their own inventive minds. {TM 363.4}

But how do men fall into such error? By starting with false premises, and then bringing everything to bear to prove the error true. In some cases the first principles have a measure of truth interwoven with the error, but it does not lead to any just action, and this is why men are misled. In order to reign and become a power, they employ Satan's methods to justify their own principles. They exalt themselves as men of superior judgment, and they have stood as representatives of God. These are false gods. {TM 364.1}

Those who are enjoined to represent the attributes of the Lord's character, step from the Bible platform, and in their own human judgment devise rules and resolutions to force the will of others. {TM 363.1}

The righteousness of Christ by faith has been ignored by some; for it is contrary to their spirit and their whole life experience. Rule, rule, has been their course of action. Satan has had an opportunity of representing himself. When one who professes to be a representative of Christ engages in sharp dealing and in pressing men into hard places, those who are thus oppressed will either break every fetter of restraint, or they will be led to regard God as a hard master. They cherish hard feelings against God, and the soul is alienated from Him, just as Satan planned it should be. {TM 363.2}

This hardheartedness on the part of men who claim to believe the truth Satan charges to the influence of the truth itself, and thus men become disgusted and turn from the truth. For this reason no man should have a responsible connection with our institutions who thinks it no important matter whether he has a heart of flesh or a heart of steel. {TM 363.3}

Galatians
1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

To try to explain it briefly without digressing further, Paul was “devoting” (or putting) this person under the Lord's direct authority. In another word He was praying something like this "Lord, intervene in this person life and instruct him and discipline him if necessary to bring him to the truth". Being under Christ direct authority and teachings is not a bad thing. The discipline didn’t come from the body, but a member of the body(Paul) put the individual in the hand of the Lord to discipline.

Yet, if someone is clearly believing and teaching contrary to the 28 FB's and refuses to repent, then at some point the church need to disfellowship them.

Matthew
7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
7:29 For he taught them as [one] having authority, and not as the scribes.
22:33 And when the multitude heard [this], they were astonished at his doctrine.

John
7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Acts
2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

Romans
6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1 Timothy
1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].
6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

2 Timothy
3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Titus
1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Hebrews
6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

2 John
1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:
1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Jude
1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

...not one thread of human devising...

1 Timothy
5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Titus
2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Hebrews
13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation.
13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For [it is] a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.
13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

Acts
15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.
15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:
15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
15:23 And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:
15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.
15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
15:31 [Which] when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
15:32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed [them].
15:33 And after they had tarried [there] a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.

The passages I posted above describe what to do about it.

however I don't appreciate the fact that most of these texts did not even address disciplinary measure relating to doctrines.

1 Corinthians
5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

2 Thessalonians
3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
3:15 Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother.

2 John
1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:
1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

2 Timothy
4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Jude
1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
1:8 Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Titus
1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
1:12 One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
1:15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Matthew
18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.
18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

The church member does not agree 1) the seventh-day is the Sabbath, 2) Jesus will return to take us home, and 3) dead people remain in the grave until Jesus returns and resurrects them. The church member is very vocal about it. The passages I posted above describe what to do about it.

2 Thessalonians
3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

The Bible describes in no uncertain terms what happened when Israel failed to live in harmony with God's word and will. The Church is obligated to proclaim and protect the truth and to encourage her members to live accordingly. When members understand and refuse to live accordingly discipline is necessary.

God bore long with Israel. Long. Very long. Even when they went backwards, not forwards, which was from the day they left Egypt. Very very long. That is part of His character.

With his pipe in hand he told me how much that memberhip meant to him, and that he was very proud of being a Seventh-day Adventist. We need the subduing influence of the Holy Ghost as we approach this task and make a study of the guidelines.

The church member does not agree 1) the seventh-day is the Sabbath, 2) Jesus will return to take us home, and 3) dead people remain in the grave until Jesus returns and resurrects them. The church member is very vocal about it. The passages I posted above describe what to do about it.

2 Thessalonians
3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Please reread all the Bible passages posted on this thread. It is clearly stated in the Bible that the Church is obligated to proclaim and to defend the truth. Members who reject any one of the truths must be properly disciplined.

But if they changed the FB to include a doctrine I believe is wrong or unbiblical I would simply disregard it.

The church member does not agree 1) the seventh-day is the Sabbath, 2) Jesus will return to take us home, and 3) dead people remain in the grave until Jesus returns and resurrects them. The church member is very vocal about it. The passages I posted above describe what to do about it.

2 Thessalonians
3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Kland, good point. Not sure if the Church will rewrite the 28FB to accommodate WO or if they'll add a FB to reflect WO. Since I agree with WO it wouldn't be a problem for me if they did.

But if they changed the FB to include a doctrine I believe is wrong or unbiblical I would simply disregard it.

I would not, however, reject the Church as unworthy of leadership or conclude it is no longer the voice of God when in GC Session.

M: Kland, good point. Not sure if the Church will rewrite the 28FB to accommodate WO or if they'll add a FB to reflect WO. Since I agree with WO it wouldn't be a problem for me if they did.

K: But you said before that Women's Ordination isn't Biblical. Therefore if it is entered in the FB, then you would be saying the FB includes unbiblical views.

M: But if they changed the FB to include a doctrine I believe is wrong or unbiblical I would simply disregard it.

K: You would disregard Women's Ordination if they included it?

M: I would not, however, reject the Church as unworthy of leadership or conclude it is no longer the voice of God when in GC Session.

K: Am I understanding you correctly that you see there could be a possibility of including a doctrine you believe is wrong or unbiblical of which you would disregard, but yet you would not conclude it is not the voice of God?! That is, you are saying the voice of God could include doctrines which you believe are wrong or unbiblical. Really?

The church member does not agree 1) the seventh-day is the Sabbath, 2) Jesus will return to take us home, and 3) dead people remain in the grave until Jesus returns and resurrects them. The church member is very vocal about it. The passages I posted above describe what to do about it.

2 Thessalonians
3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

I very much doubt a GC Session will vote to include a false doctrine in the FB. But if they did - it would not lead me to conclude they are not voice of God when in GC Session. Just because they get one thing wrong doesn't mean everything else is wrong. A mute point, however, because so far they have gotten all 28 FB right.

I guess my biggest problem is there wasn't 28 in the past. Someone teaching against the 28th wouldn't be disfellowshiped then, but they would now? What about when the 29th comes out?

It doesn't matter how many times the truth is divided and subdivided.

Kland, the 28FB are sound, biblical doctrines. Do you agree? If not, why not? The GC Session has never included false doctrines. I doubt they ever will.

Kland, the 28FB are sound, biblical doctrines. Do you agree? If not, why not? The GC Session has never included false doctrines. I doubt they ever will.

It doesn't matter how many times the truth is divided and subdivided.

M: Kland, the 28FB are sound, biblical doctrines. Do you agree? If not, why not? The GC Session has never included false doctrines. I doubt they ever will.

J: In agreement with you, MM. The 28FB is our guideline and it is, or should be, the basis on which we baptize people and accept them into the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Our church is rather liberal when it does not disfellowship those who come to a slightly different understanding of our basic doctrines. Should we be more conservative?

Is our church on a wrong path when we elect officers who deviate in their acceptance of our basic doctrines? Is it appropriate for an electronic ministry for Adventists and teaching others the faith of Adventism when it uses "officers" with deviating understanding of our 28FB?

Personally I feel we should be liberal in the views of participating members while it is against the purpose of this mission when moderators are permitted to present views that are in opposition to our basic 28FB.

M: But if they changed the FB to include a doctrine I believe is wrong or unbiblical I would simply disregard it. I would not, however, reject the Church as unworthy of leadership or conclude it is no longer the voice of God when in GC Session.

K: Am I understanding you correctly that you see there could be a possibility of including a doctrine you believe is wrong or unbiblical of which you would disregard, but yet you would not conclude it is not the voice of God?! That is, you are saying the voice of God could include doctrines which you believe are wrong or unbiblical. Really?

M: Many decisions are voted on during a GC Session. Do they get every single vote right? I don't know. I have never bothered to check. As it relates to the FB I care very much. So far, all 28 FB are biblically sound. I very much doubt a GC Session will vote to include a false doctrine in the FB. But if they did - it would not lead me to conclude they are not voice of God when in GC Session. Just because they get one thing wrong doesn't mean everything else is wrong. A mute point, however, because so far they have gotten all 28 FB right.

M: Kland, the 28FB are sound, biblical doctrines. Do you agree? If not, why not? The GC Session has never included false doctrines. I doubt they ever will.

K: If you keep straddling the fence, it may not be good for your health. You said, "But if they did". So you're saying that if the FB included false doctrine, it would still not lead you to "conclude they are not voice of God when in GC Session". That is, the voice of God could include false doctrine. Which boils down to what we've been asking you. Who gets to determine whether they are Biblical or non-Biblical, the truth or false. So far, all you've offered is that you get to decide.

M: It doesn't matter how many times the truth is divided and subdivided.

K: What you're really saying here is that the church should discipline members for even that which isn't specified in the 29+/- FB. So why have them if you are going to use what they don't say against members?

There is no need to doubt, to be fearful that the work will not succeed. God is at the head of the work, and He will set everything in order. If matters need adjusting at the head of the work God will attend to that, and work to right every wrong. Let us have faith that God is going to carry the noble ship which bears the people of God safely into port.--2SM 390 (1892). {LDE 52.1}

Has God no living church? He has a church, but it is the church militant, not the church triumphant. We are sorry that there are defective members, that there are tares amid the wheat. . . . Although there are evils existing in the church, and will be until the end of the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that is polluted and demoralized by sin. The church, enfeebled and defective, needing to be reproved, warned, and counseled, is the only object upon earth upon which Christ bestows His supreme regard.--TM 45, 49 (1893). {LDE 52.2}

The bulwarks of Satan will never triumph. Victory will attend the third angel's message. As the Captain of the Lord's host tore down the walls of Jericho, so will the Lord's commandment-keeping people triumph, and all opposing elements be defeated.--TM 410 (1898). {LDE 52.3}

If it ever happens, and I seriously doubt it will, then we can talk about it. Until then, it is a mute point and does not deserve our time and attention.

God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)


What should be done to those who do not recognize that the qualities and powers exhibited in Christ are also revelations of the Father? What if someone should say that those qualities and powers exhibited by Christ are only partial revelations of the Father?

The RCC is a counterfeit. The SDA Church is the Remnant Church of prophecy.

I realize you are not a SDA.

"I am a Christian who chooses to fellowship with Seventh-day Adventists."

The RCC is a counterfeit. The SDA Church is the Remnant Church of prophecy.

God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)


What should be done to those who do not recognize that the qualities and powers exhibited in Christ are also revelations of the Father? What if someone should say that those qualities and powers exhibited by Christ are only partial revelations of the Father?

The RCC is a counterfeit. The SDA Church is the Remnant Church of prophecy.

Right, you disagree with the SDA interpretation of the Revelation - "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." SDA members who understand and reject this FB should be disciplined. I realize you are not a SDA.

1 Corinthians 1:13

The RCC is a counterfeit. The SDA Church is the Remnant Church of prophecy.

Right, you disagree with the SDA interpretation of the Revelation - "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." SDA members who understand and reject this FB should be disciplined. I realize you are not a SDA.

Is this one of the Fundamental Beliefs, that the SDA church is the remnant church? If so, which one is it? Or is this a case of wanting to "discipline" people with made up reasons?

Kland, please refer to the 28 FB of the SDA Church to learn which one describes the The Remnant and Its Mission.

Seventh-Day Adventists.

I was shown in regard to the remnant people of God taking a name. Two classes were presented before me. One class embraced the great bodies of professed Christians. They were trampling upon God's law and bowing to a Papal institution. They were keeping the first day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord. {4bSG 54.1}

The other class were but few in number, and were bowing to the great Law-giver. They were keeping the fourth commandment. The peculiar and prominent features of their faith were the observance of the seventh day, and waiting for the appearing of our Lord from Heaven. {4bSG 54.2}

The conflict is between the requirements of God and the requirements of the beast. The first day, a Papal institution which directly contradicts the fourth commandment, is yet to be made a test by the two-horned beast. And then the fearful warning from God declares the penalty of bowing to the beast and his image. They shall drink the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation. {4bSG 54.3}

No name which we can take will be appropriate but that which accords with our profession, and expresses our faith, and marks us as a peculiar people. The name, Seventh-day Adventist, is a standing rebuke to the Protestant world. Here is the line of distinction between the worshipers of God, and those who worship the beast, and receive his mark. The great conflict is between the commandments of God and the requirements of the beast. It is because the saints are keeping all ten of the commandments that the dragon makes war upon them; and if they will lower the standard and yield the peculiarities of their faith, the dragon will be at peace. But God's people excite the ire of the dragon because they have dared to raise the standard, and unfurl their banner in opposition to the Protestant world, who are worshiping the institution of Papacy. {4bSG 54.4}

The name, Seventh-day Adventist, carries the true features of our faith in front, and will convict the inquiring mind. Like an arrow from the Lord's quiver, it will wound the transgressors of God's law, and will lead to repentance toward God, and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. {4bSG 55.1}

I was shown that almost every fanatic who has arisen, who wishes to hide his sentiments that he may lead away others, claims to belong to the church of God. Such a name would excite suspicion at once, for the most absurd errors are concealed under this name. This name is too indefinite for the remnant people of God. The influence of such a name would lead to the supposition that we had a faith we wished to cover up. {4bSG 55.2}

The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure. {1SM 204.2}

Zechariah's vision of Joshua and the Angel applies with peculiar force to the experience of God's people in the closing up of the great day of atonement. The remnant church will be brought into great trial and distress. Those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus will feel the ire of the dragon and his hosts. Satan numbers the world as his subjects, he has gained control of the apostate churches; but here is a little company that are resisting his supremacy. If he could blot them from the earth, his triumph would be complete. As he influenced the heathen nations to destroy Israel, so in the near future he will stir up the wicked powers of earth to destroy the people of God. All will be required to render obedience to human edicts in violation of the divine law. Those who will be true to God and to duty will be menaced, denounced, and proscribed. They will "be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends." {5T 472.2}

Their only hope is in the mercy of God; their only defense will be prayer. As Joshua was pleading before the Angel, so the remnant church, with brokenness of heart and earnest faith, will plead for pardon and deliverance through Jesus their Advocate. They are fully conscious of the sinfulness of their lives, they see their weakness and unworthiness, and as they look upon themselves they are ready to despair. The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright the soul with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes to so destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, turn from their allegiance to God, and receive the mark of the beast. {5T 473.1}

Satan urges before God his accusations against them, declaring that they have by their sins forfeited the divine protection, and claiming the right to destroy them as transgressors. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven and the place of the angels who united with me? While they profess to obey the law of God, have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins which have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred toward one another." {5T 473.2}

The people of God have been in many respects very faulty. Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins which he has tempted them to commit, and he presents these in the most exaggerated light, declaring: "Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Thy throne will not stand in righteousness and judgment. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them." {5T 474.1}

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves to the control of evil. They have put away their sins, and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin, and also their repentance, declares: "'The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan.' I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands." {5T 474.2}

The assaults of Satan are strong, his delusions are terrible; but the Lord's eye is upon His people. Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but Jesus will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. Their earthliness must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected; unbelief must be overcome; faith, hope, and patience are to be developed. {5T 474.3}

The people of God are sighing and crying for the abominations done in the land. With tears they warn the wicked of their danger in trampling upon the divine law, and with unutterable sorrow they humble themselves before the Lord on account of their own transgressions. The wicked mock their sorrow, ridicule their solemn appeals, and sneer at what they term their weakness. But the anguish and humiliation of God's people is unmistakable evidence that they are regaining the strength and nobility of character lost in consequence of sin. It is because they are drawing nearer to Christ, and their eyes are fixed upon His perfect purity, that they so clearly discern the exceeding sinfulness of sin. Their contrition and self-abasement are infinitely more acceptable in the sight of God than is the self-sufficient, haughty spirit of those who see no cause to lament, who scorn the humility of Christ, and who claim perfection while transgressing God's holy law. Meekness and lowliness of heart are the conditions for strength and victory. The crown of glory awaits those who bow at the foot of the cross. Blessed are these mourners, for they shall be comforted. {5T 474.4}

The faithful, praying ones are, as it were, shut in with God. They themselves know not how securely they are shielded. Urged on by Satan, the rulers of this world are seeking to destroy them; but could their eyes be opened, as were the eyes of Elisha's servant at Dothan, they would see the angels of God encamped about them, by their brightness and glory holding in check the hosts of darkness. {5T 475.1}

As the people of God afflict their souls before Him, pleading for purity of heart, the command is given, "Take away the filthy garments" from them, and the encouraging words are spoken, "Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment." The spotless robe of Christ's righteousness is placed upon the tried, tempted, yet faithful children of God. The despised remnant are clothed in glorious apparel, nevermore to be defiled by the corruptions of the world. Their names are retained in the Lamb's book of life, enrolled among the faithful of all ages. They have resisted the wiles of the deceiver; they have not been turned from their loyalty by the dragon's roar. Now they are eternally secure from the tempter's devices. Their sins are transferred to the originator of sin. And the remnant are not only pardoned and accepted, but honored. "A fair miter" is set upon their heads. They are to be as kings and priests unto God. While Satan was urging his accusations and seeking to destroy this company, holy angels, unseen, were passing to and fro, placing upon them the seal of the living God. These are they that stand upon Mount Zion with the Lamb, having the Father's name written in their foreheads. They sing the new song before the throne, that song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." {5T 475.2}

Now is reached the complete fulfillment of those words of the Angel: "Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth My servant the Branch." Christ is revealed as the Redeemer and Deliverer of His people. Now indeed are the remnant "men wondered at," as the tears and humiliation of their pilgrimage give place to joy and honor in the presence of God and the Lamb. "In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even everyone that is written among the living in Jerusalem." {5T 476.1}

Mysteries into which angels desire to look, which prophets and kings and righteous men desired to understand, the remnant church will carry in messages from God to the world. The prophets prophesied of these things, and they longed to understand that which they foretold; but to them this privilege was not given. They longed to see what we see, and to hear what we hear; but they could not. They will know all when Christ shall come the second time; when, surrounded by a multitude which no man can number, He explains the deliverance wrought out by the great sacrifice He made. {6T 19.4}

The truths of the third angel's message have been presented by some as a dry theory; but in this message is to be presented Christ the Living One. He is to be revealed as the first and the last, as the I AM, the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright and morning Star. Through this message the character of God in Christ is to be manifested to the world. The call is to be sounded: "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him: behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him. He shall feed His flock like a shepherd: He shall gather the lambs with His arm, and carry them in His bosom." Isaiah 40:9-11. {6T 20.1}

Ideally, I suppose, the Church should labor lovingly to woo and win them. But if they are immovable and unwilling to believe and live in harmony with the FB it is right and reasonable to expect them to move on until they find like-minded believers. Unfortunately, most hang out and cause trouble.

Unfortunately, most hang out and cause trouble.

Our thirteenth fundamental belief states: “The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”

Remnant and Its Mission

The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a
remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This remnant announces the arrival
of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation
is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work
of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness. (Rev. 12:17;
14:6-12; 18:1-4; 2 Cor. 5:10; Jude 3, 14; 1 Peter 1:16-19; 2 Peter 3:10-14; Rev. 21:1-14.)

Most of our policies are printed but not available to all. The written policies are usually availae to those who know somebody who knows somebody. In some cases there are other policies that explain the matter where you need to apply it, which may be different from other policies. A local conference president told me the official Church Manual, although voted by the GC at a regular session, had to be accepted by his conference before it applied in his area.

It is written, "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left."

Our policies have nothing to do with salvation. They are merely rules developed to make the church as apostolic as possible with the daily routines not directly prescribed in Scripture.

And I heard the number of those who were sealed. A GREAT MANY of all the DENOMINATIONS of the CHURCH were sealed:

SOME from the denomination of SDA,
SOME from the denomination of Baptists,
SOME from the denomination of Mormons,
SOME from the denomination of Catholics,
SOME from the denomination of Lutherans,
etc.

Most of our policies are printed but not available to all. The written policies are usually availae to those who know somebody who knows somebody.

Let me make another point clear. The Seventh-day Adventist church believes God has given this denomination a reposibility of proclaiming certain points which bring us closer to Jesus Christ. We find honest Christians who love Jesus Christ in most denominations. We invite those brothers and sisters in faith to join us in a closer walk with Christ in particular on the only day he has blessed and sanctified. You should experience this encounter with God.

And as Adventist we do havee a special message to the world that this Jesus is fulfilling His promise by coming again. The Bible teaches us that as the Day approaches there will on the one hand be a great revival and on the other a great confusion, a Babylon. Through the mist ecchoes this clarion call "Come out of Baylon, my people!"That is a call for a closer union with Jesus Christ going out to all people. We want you, James Peterson, to accept that call as well.

No - there are only 2 groups
1 - Babylon is the secular/pagan world
2 - True believers

And the Biblical basis for your interpretation is? Where did you get that from?

///

From the study of the Bible, particularly Daniel and the study of near eastern religions. You say the kings of the earth are the secular world. Perhaps you can tell us where kings come from, you seem to know.

The FB are not hammers - they are eternal truths. Jesus raised up the SDA Church to practice and proclaim them. Yes, there are sincere believers in other churches who will be saved. However, that is not the same as saying Jesus raised them up to proclaim the 3AM, to prepare the world to accept or reject the truth as it is in Jesus. They will leave their churches and join the SDA Church when the call to come out of Babylon is sounded. They will gladly embrace the FB.

the 1901 General Conference Session, with input from Ellen White, autonomous unions were created,

“[transferring] authority from the General Conference leaders to local leaders, and departments were created that transferred authority over such ministries as Sabbath school, health, temperance, religious liberty, publishing, mission appointments and education from independent stockholders to church leaders, including members, at all levels.
[...]
The unions, on the other hand, were created to act as firewalls between the GC and the conferences, making “dictation” impossible because:
Each union had its own constitution and bylaws and was to be governed by its own constituency.
The officers of each union were to be elected by their own union constituency, and, therefore, could not be controlled, replaced or disciplined by the GC.

I find it difficult to believe that truth is so mysterious that it cannot be expressed in words once the Holy Spirit reveals it unto us. The Bible contains the truths necessary to be set free.

I find it difficult to believe that truth is so mysterious that it cannot be expressed in words once the Holy Spirit reveals it unto us. The Bible contains the truths necessary to be set free.

Truth in what context? In Science, especially Mathematics, it may be objective. Nobody would deny that you were speeding 20 over the limit if it was so recorded and shown on the meter. In the arts, however, truth is patently subjective. Were you cruising or were you going excessively fast? Compared to what and judging by whom?

The Bible is literature. The proliferation of denominational viewpoints, hence denominations, is therefore expected when it comes to matters it does not address directly. Is Jesus the Messiah? Of course! Mat. 16:16. Is there an investigative judgement of saints? NO. Why, because SDA merely interpreted certain statements to explain away their Great Disappointment.

Christian denominations should NOT base their peculiarity, and hold themselves out as the ONLY light upon a hill, on ideas not explicitly stated or self-evident from the text of the Bible. It is difficult to take anyone seriously, for example, who stridently claims that congregational worship on Saturdays or belief in a trinity of divinities is a determinant of one's salvation. One's creed should be simple: John 13:35, and allow for the proliferation and discussion of ideas without the threat of the stifling of conscience.

///

2 Corinthians 3:12-17 J.B. Phillips New Testament

12-17 With this hope in our hearts we are quite frank and open in our ministry. We are not like Moses, who veiled his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing its fading glory. But it was their minds really which were blinded, for even today when the old agreement is read to them there is still a veil over their minds—though the veil has actually been lifted by Christ. Yes, alas, even to this day there is still a veil over their hearts when the writings of Moses are read. Yet if they “turned to the Lord” the veil would disappear. For the Lord to whom they could turn is the spirit of the new agreement, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, men’s souls are set free.

I think what MM was trying to say,
2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

Isn't that objective, like going 20 over the speed limit, of which nobody can deny?

So, yes, within the SDA Church, members who refuse to comply with the 7th day Sabbath should be disciplined in accordance with biblical standards.

So, yes, within the SDA Church, members who refuse to comply with the 7th day Sabbath should be disciplined in accordance with biblical standards.

I would advise those members to patiently seek another denomination (there are many) if it comes to that and hold fast to their faith in God unto salvation.

Why do you keep the 7th day?

Because Jesus did (does).

Chap. 236 - The Reward

Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Revelation 22:12. {AG 244.1}

In His divine arrangement, through His unmerited favor, the Lord has ordained that good works shall be rewarded. We are accepted through Christ's merit alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of charity, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merit of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works in and of themselves have no merit. . . . We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed in the strength of our own sinful natures. {AG 244.2}

We need . . . to bring the light and grace of Christ into all our works. We need to take hold of Christ and to retain our hold of Him until we know that the power of His transforming grace is manifested in us. We must have faith in Christ if we would reflect the divine character. . . . Faith in the Word of God and in the power of Christ to transform the life will enable the believer to work His works. {AG 244.3}

To His servants Christ commits "His goods"--something to be put to use for Him. He gives "to every man his work." . . . Not more surely is the place prepared for us in the heavenly mansions than is the special place designated on earth where we are to work for God. . . . {AG 244.4}

Christ has paid us our wages, even His own blood and suffering, to secure our willing service. He came to our world to give us an example of how we should work, and what spirit we should bring into our labor. He desires us to study how we can best advance His work and glorify His name in the world. {AG 244.5}

The sanctification of the soul by the working of the Holy Spirit is the implanting of Christ's nature in humanity. Gospel religion is Christ in the life--a living, active principle. It is the grace of Christ revealed in character and wrought out in good works. {AG 244.6}

We are discussing the answer to your question elsewhere. Let's stay on topic here. SDA members and leaders who refuse to live in harmony with the 28FB should be disciplined.

Really? So if you don't keep the Sabbath, what is Jesus going to do to you?

It's the reason I said "congregational worship on Saturdays". Indeed the Decalogue does say the seventh day but it must be the seventh day according to one's own time zone and culture. The Sabbath was never meant to be a strictly specific 24-hour period Jerusalem time, else many would have to be awake all night in accordance with the day set there.

Evidently, the commandment is simply asking for one day out of seven which,

because the week is cyclic over seven days, means that, mathematically and as commonsense would have it, whatever day you choose becomes the seventh day of rest from the day you started the week.

Saturdays? No problem. Sundays? No problem either. The day of congregational worship is always going to be the seventh day (or last day of the week) for that congregation. And you break the commandment when you deviate from the faith of your brethren with whom you worship over the issue. Nevertheless, another congregation does not sin by holding Tuesdays, for example as against Thursdays, as the Sabbath of the Lord any more than American SDA keep Fridays holy judging by Jerusalem time.

///

It is one topic. I've asked you want discipline you would give way back, and you don't have a straight answer. Christ is our guide, what would Christ do to those who do not hold to the real FBs, the Bible? Hard for you to answer?

A: Why do you keep the 7th day?

M: Because Jesus did (does).

K: Well, "discipline" you, of course! So you had better keep the 7th day for the reason of keeping from being "disciplined"!

Oh, let us contemplate the amazing sacrifice that has been made for us! Let us try to appreciate the labor and energy that Heaven is expending to reclaim the lost, and bring them back to the Father's house. Motives stronger, and agencies more powerful, could never be brought into operation; the exceeding rewards for right-doing, the enjoyment of heaven, the society of the angels, the communion and love of God and His Son, the elevation and extension of all our powers throughout eternal ages--are these not mighty incentives and encouragements to urge us to give the heart's loving service to our Creator and Redeemer? {SC 21.3}

And, on the other hand, the judgments of God pronounced against sin, the inevitable retribution, the degradation of our character, and the final destruction, are presented in God's word to warn us against the service of Satan. {SC 21.4}

The Jews refused to live in harmony with FB and Jesus raised up the Christian Church. The Bible is very clear about what to do when members refuse to live in harmony with FB.

The passages I posted above demonstrate the role of church and church leadership. Church leadership ruled on doctrine and discipline. The first general council held in Jerusalem reflects church leadership deciding doctrine and determining direction for the church. "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves". "And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him". "If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." "Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Jesus clearly tasked church leaders with responsibility to rule members well. The Holy Spirit gifts certain people with talents to rule and lead church members. "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine . . . Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear."

James, I always appreciate your sense of rumor (humor). Jesus tasked the Nation of Israel with protecting and proclaiming the truth. Dire was the penalty for rejecting and/or refusing to live in harmony with the FB. "The LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp." Would you label such leadership as totalitarian or communistic? Most people refer to it as a Theocracy. No, I do not believe Jesus will command leaders today to execute capital punishment. Different dispensation. But I do believe the passages posted above make it clear Jesus expects the leaders He ordains to protect and proclaim the truth. Sometimes that involves disciplining members and leaders who refuse to live in harmony with the FB.

But I do believe the passages posted above make it clear Jesus expects the leaders He ordains to protect and proclaim the truth. Sometimes that involves disciplining members and leaders who refuse to live in harmony with the FB.

M: James, I always appreciate your sense of rumor (humor). Jesus tasked the Nation of Israel with protecting and proclaiming the truth. Dire was the penalty for rejecting and/or refusing to live in harmony with the FB. "The LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp." Would you label such leadership as totalitarian or communistic? Most people refer to it as a Theocracy. No, I do not believe Jesus will command leaders today to execute capital punishment. Different dispensation. But I do believe the passages posted above make it clear Jesus expects the leaders He ordains to protect and proclaim the truth. Sometimes that involves disciplining members and leaders who refuse to live in harmony with the FB.

J: This is neither a matter of capital punishment nor is it frivolous conversation. Israel was a nation governed by civil law. The Church of God, on the other hand, is a movement of volunteers without borders started not in the 19th but the 1st century CE given the over-riding task of telling about the everlasting GOOD NEWS person to person. If SDA feel that they can police the minds of their members, well then .... but the Church is over and above the denomination and its members are those whose names have been registered in heaven. Do you understand that? The foundation of our faith is not a contrived list of 28 fundamental beliefs laid out in 1980, but in these words of Peter, "[Jesus of Nazareth] is the Christ, Son of the Living God" uttered at the very beginning of the common era. Beyond that, a person is free to follow his own understanding without any threat to his liberty of conscience, as he is taught by God through faith. He is absolutely at liberty to discuss and expound and share with due respect to others. Or have SDA begun to set up an Inquisition?

James, I always appreciate your sense of rumor (humor). Jesus tasked the Nation of Israel with protecting and proclaiming the truth. Dire was the penalty for rejecting and/or refusing to live in harmony with the FB. "The LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp." Would you label such leadership as totalitarian or communistic? Most people refer to it as a Theocracy. No, I do not believe Jesus will command leaders today to execute capital punishment. Different dispensation. But I do believe the passages posted above make it clear Jesus expects the leaders He ordains to protect and proclaim the truth. Sometimes that involves disciplining members and leaders who refuse to live in harmony with the FB.

The Jews refused to live in harmony with FB and Jesus raised up the Christian Church. The Bible is very clear about what to do when members refuse to live in harmony with FB.

James, I always appreciate your sense of rumor (humor). Jesus tasked the Nation of Israel with protecting and proclaiming the truth. Dire was the penalty for rejecting and/or refusing to live in harmony with the FB. "The LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp." Would you label such leadership as totalitarian or communistic? Most people refer to it as a Theocracy. No, I do not believe Jesus will command leaders today to execute capital punishment. Different dispensation. But I do believe the passages posted above make it clear Jesus expects the leaders He ordains to protect and proclaim the truth. Sometimes that involves disciplining members and leaders who refuse to live in harmony with the FB.

Kland, I cannot figure out what you are saying. Jesus is the truth. The truth is, therefore, eternal. I didn't make up the 28FB. Don't blame me if you don't like them.

Kland, I cannot figure out what you are saying. Jesus is the truth. The truth is, therefore, eternal. I didn't make up the 28FB. Don't blame me if you don't like them.

Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church's understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture. Revision of these statements may be expected at a General Conference session when the church is led by the Holy Spirit to a fuller understanding of Bible truth or finds better language in which to express the teachings of God's Holy Word.

1. The Holy Scriptures:
1. Holy Scriptures: The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12.)

2. Trinity: There is one God:
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

3. Father:
God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)

4. Son:
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)

5. Holy Spirit:
God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ's life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God. Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth. (Gen. 1:1, 2; Luke 1:35; 4:18; Acts 10:38; 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:11, 12; Acts 1:8; John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:7-13.)

6. Creation:
God is Creator of all things, and has revealed in Scripture the authentic account of His creative activity. In six days the Lord made "the heaven and the earth" and all living things upon the earth, and rested on the seventh day of that first week. Thus He established the Sabbath as a perpetual memorial of His completed creative work. The first man and woman were made in the image of God as the crowning work of Creation, given dominion over the world, and charged with responsibility to care for it. When the world was finished it was ``very good,'' declaring the glory of God. (Gen. 1; 2; Ex. 20:8-11; Ps. 19:1-6; 33:6, 9; 104; Heb. 11:3.)

7. Nature of Man:
Man and woman were made in the image of God with individuality, the power and freedom to think and to do. Though created free beings, each is an indivisible unity of body, mind, and spirit, dependent upon God for life and breath and all else. When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God. The image of God in them was marred and they became subject to death. Their descendants share this fallen nature and its consequences. They are born with weaknesses and tendencies to evil. But God in Christ reconciled the world to Himself and by His Spirit restores in penitent mortals the image of their Maker. Created for the glory of God, they are called to love Him and one another, and to care for their environment. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:7; Ps. 8:4-8; Acts 17:24-28; Gen. 3; Ps. 51:5; Rom. 5:12-17; 2 Cor. 5:19, 20; Ps. 51:10; 1 John 4:7, 8, 11, 20; Gen. 2:15.)

8. Great Controversy:
All humanity is now involved in a great controversy between Christ and Satan regarding the character of God, His law, and His sovereignty over the universe. This conflict originated in heaven when a created being, endowed with freedom of choice, in self-exaltation became Satan, God's adversary, and led into rebellion a portion of the angels. He introduced the spirit of rebellion into this world when he led Adam and Eve into sin. This human sin resulted in the distortion of the image of God in humanity, the disordering of the created world, and its eventual devastation at the time of the worldwide flood. Observed by the whole creation, this world became the arena of the universal conflict, out of which the God of love will ultimately be vindicated. To assist His people in this controversy, Christ sends the Holy Spirit and the loyal angels to guide, protect, and sustain them in the way of salvation. (Rev. 12:4-9; Isa. 14:12-14; Eze. 28:12-18; Gen. 3; Rom. 1:19-32; 5:12-21; 8:19-22; Gen. 6-8; 2 Peter 3:6; 1 Cor. 4:9; Heb. 1:14.)

9. Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ:
In Christ's life of perfect obedience to God's will, His suffering, death, and resurrection, God provided the only means of atonement for human sin, so that those who by faith accept this atonement may have eternal life, and the whole creation may better understand the infinite and holy love of the Creator. This perfect atonement vindicates the righteousness of God's law and the graciousness of His character; for it both condemns our sin and provides for our forgiveness. The death of Christ is substitutionary and expiatory, reconciling and transforming. The resurrection of Christ proclaims God's triumph over the forces of evil, and for those who accept the atonement assures their final victory over sin and death. It declares the Lordship of Jesus Christ, before whom every knee in heaven and on earth will bow. (John 3:16; Isa. 53; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4, 20-22; 2 Cor. 5:14, 15, 19-21; Rom. 1:4; 3:25; 4:25; 8:3, 4; 1 John 2:2; 4:10; Col. 2:15; Phil. 2:6-11.)

10. Experience of Salvation:
In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)

11. Growing in Christ:
By His death on the cross Jesus triumphed over the forces of evil. He who subjugated the demonic spirits during His earthly ministry has broken their power and made certain their ultimate doom. Jesus' victory gives us victory over the evil forces that still seek to control us, as we walk with Him in peace, joy, and assurance of His love. Now the Holy Spirit dwells within us and empowers us. Continually committed to Jesus as our Saviour and Lord, we are set free from the burden of our past deeds. No longer do we live in the darkness, fear of evil powers, ignorance, and meaninglessness of our former way of life. In this new freedom in Jesus, we are called to grow into the likeness of His character, communing with Him daily in prayer, feeding on His Word, meditating on it and on His providence, singing His praises, gathering together for worship, and participating in the mission of the Church. As we give ourselves in loving service to those around us and in witnessing to His salvation, His constant presence with us through the Spirit transforms every moment and every task into a spiritual experience. (Ps 1:1, 2; 23:4; 77:11, 12; Col 1:13, 14; 2:6, 14, 15; Luke 10:17-20; Eph 5:19, 20; 6:12-18; 1 Thess 5:23; 2 Peter 2:9; 3:18; 2 Cor. 3:17, 18; Phil 3:7-14; 1 Thess 5:16-18; Matt 20:25-28; John 20:21; Gal 5:22-25; Rom 8:38, 39; 1 John 4:4; Heb 10:25.)

12. Church:
The church is the community of believers who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. In continuity with the people of God in Old Testament times, we are called out from the world; and we join together for worship, for fellowship, for instruction in the Word, for the celebration of the Lord's Supper, for service to all mankind, and for the worldwide proclamation of the gospel. The church derives its authority from Christ, who is the incarnate Word, and from the Scriptures, which are the written Word. The church is God's family; adopted by Him as children, its members live on the basis of the new covenant. The church is the body of Christ, a community of faith of which Christ Himself is the Head. The church is the bride for whom Christ died that He might sanctify and cleanse her. At His return in triumph, He will present her to Himself a glorious church, the faithful of all the ages, the purchase of His blood, not having spot or wrinkle, but holy and without blemish. (Gen. 12:3; Acts 7:38; Eph. 4:11-15; 3:8-11; Matt. 28:19, 20; 16:13-20; 18:18; Eph. 2:19-22; 1:22, 23; 5:23-27; Col. 1:17, 18.)

13. Remnant and Its Mission:
The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This remnant announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness. (Rev. 12:17; 14:6-12; 18:1-4; 2 Cor. 5:10; Jude 3, 14; 1 Peter 1:16-19; 2 Peter 3:10-14; Rev. 21:1-14.)

14. Unity in the Body of Christ:
The church is one body with many members, called from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. In Christ we are a new creation; distinctions of race, culture, learning, and nationality, and differences between high and low, rich and poor, male and female, must not be divisive among us. We are all equal in Christ, who by one Spirit has bonded us into one fellowship with Him and with one another; we are to serve and be served without partiality or reservation. Through the revelation of Jesus Christ in the Scriptures we share the same faith and hope, and reach out in one witness to all. This unity has its source in the oneness of the triune God, who has adopted us as His children. (Rom. 12:4, 5; 1 Cor. 12:12-14; Matt. 28:19, 20; Ps. 133:1; 2 Cor. 5:16, 17; Acts 17:26, 27; Gal. 3:27, 29; Col. 3:10-15; Eph. 4:14-16; 4:1-6; John 17:20-23.)

15. Baptism:
By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church. Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit. It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin. It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Rom. 6:1-6; Col. 2:12, 13; Acts 16:30-33; 22:16; 2:38; Matt. 28:19, 20.)

16. Lord's Supper:
The Lord's Supper is a participation in the emblems of the body and blood of Jesus as an expression of faith in Him, our Lord and Saviour. In this experience of communion Christ is present to meet and strengthen His people. As we partake, we joyfully proclaim the Lord's death until He comes again. Preparation for the Supper includes self-examination, repentance, and confession. The Master ordained the service of foot washing to signify renewed cleansing, to express a willingness to serve one another in Christlike humility, and to unite our hearts in love. The communion service is open to all believing Christians. (1 Cor. 10:16, 17; 11:23-30; Matt. 26:17-30; Rev. 3:20; John 6:48-63; 13:1-17.)

17. Spiritual Gifts and Ministries:
God bestows upon all members of His church in every age spiritual gifts which each member is to employ in loving ministry for the common good of the church and of humanity. Given by the agency of the Holy Spirit, who apportions to each member as He wills, the gifts provide all abilities and ministries needed by the church to fulfill its divinely ordained functions. According to the Scriptures, these gifts include such ministries as faith, healing, prophecy, proclamation, teaching, administration, reconciliation, compassion, and self-sacrificing service and charity for the help and encouragement of people. Some members are called of God and endowed by the Spirit for functions recognized by the church in pastoral, evangelistic, apostolic, and teaching ministries particularly needed to equip the members for service, to build up the church to spiritual maturity, and to foster unity of the faith and knowledge of God. When members employ these spiritual gifts as faithful stewards of God's varied grace, the church is protected from the destructive influence of false doctrine, grows with a growth that is from God, and is built up in faith and love. (Rom. 12:4-8; 1 Cor. 12:9-11, 27, 28; Eph. 4:8, 11-16; Acts 6:1-7; 1 Tim. 3:1-13; 1 Peter 4:10, 11.)

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

19. Law of God:
The great principles of God's law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God's love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age. These precepts are the basis of God's covenant with His people and the standard in God's judgment. Through the agency of the Holy Spirit they point out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour. Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments. This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness. (Ex. 20:1-17; Ps. 40:7, 8; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 28:1-14; Matt. 5:17-20; Heb. 8:8-10; John 15:7-10; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 John 5:3; Rom. 8:3, 4; Ps. 19:7-14.)

20. Sabbath:
The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom. The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)

21. Stewardship:
We are God's stewards, entrusted by Him with time and opportunities, abilities and possessions, and the blessings of the earth and its resources. We are responsible to Him for their proper use. We acknowledge God's ownership by faithful service to Him and our fellow men, and by returning tithes and giving offerings for the proclamation of His gospel and the support and growth of His church. Stewardship is a privilege given to us by God for nurture in love and the victory over selfishness and covetousness. The steward rejoices in the blessings that come to others as a result of his faithfulness. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:15; 1 Chron. 29:14; Haggai 1:3-11; Mal. 3:8-12; 1 Cor. 9:9-14; Matt. 23:23; 2 Cor. 8:1-15; Rom. 15:26, 27.)

22. Christian Behavior:
We are called to be a godly people who think, feel, and act in harmony with the principles of heaven. For the Spirit to recreate in us the character of our Lord we involve ourselves only in those things which will produce Christlike purity, health, and joy in our lives. This means that our amusement and entertainment should meet the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty. While recognizing cultural differences, our dress is to be simple, modest, and neat, befitting those whose true beauty does not consist of outward adornment but in the imperishable ornament of a gentle and quiet spirit. It also means that because our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, we are to care for them intelligently. Along with adequate exercise and rest, we are to adopt the most healthful diet possible and abstain from the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures. Since alcoholic beverages, tobacco, and the irresponsible use of drugs and narcotics are harmful to our bodies, we are to abstain from them as well. Instead, we are to engage in whatever brings our thoughts and bodies into the discipline of Christ, who desires our wholesomeness, joy, and goodness. (Rom. 12:1, 2; 1 John 2:6; Eph. 5:1-21; Phil. 4:8; 2 Cor. 10:5; 6:14-7:1; 1 Peter 3:1-4; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 10:31; Lev. 11:1-47; 3 John 2.)

23. Marriage and the Family:
Marriage was divinely established in Eden and affirmed by Jesus to be a lifelong union between a man and a woman in loving companionship. For the Christian a marriage commitment is to God as well as to the spouse, and should be entered into only between partners who share a common faith. Mutual love, honor, respect, and responsibility are the fabric of this relationship, which is to reflect the love, sanctity, closeness, and permanence of the relationship between Christ and His church. Regarding divorce, Jesus taught that the person who divorces a spouse, except for fornication, and marries another, commits adultery. Although some family relationships may fall short of the ideal, marriage partners who fully commit themselves to each other in Christ may achieve loving unity through the guidance of the Spirit and the nurture of the church. God blesses the family and intends that its members shall assist each other toward complete maturity. Parents are to bring up their children to love and obey the Lord. By their example and their words they are to teach them that Christ is a loving disciplinarian, ever tender and caring, who wants them to become members of His body, the family of God. Increasing family closeness is one of the earmarks of the final gospel message. (Gen. 2:18-25; Matt. 19:3-9; John 2:1-11; 2 Cor. 6:14; Eph. 5:21-33; Matt. 5:31, 32; Mark 10:11, 12; Luke 16:18; 1 Cor. 7:10, 11; Ex. 20:12; Eph. 6:1-4; Deut. 6:5-9; Prov. 22:6; Mal. 4:5, 6.)

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:
There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

25. Second Coming of Christ:
The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the church, the grand climax of the gospel. The Saviour's coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christ's coming is imminent. The time of that event has not been revealed, and we are therefore exhorted to be ready at all times. (Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:9-11; Matt. 24:14; Rev. 1:7; Matt. 24:43, 44; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:8; Rev. 14:14-20; 19:11-21; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 1 Thess. 5:1-6.)

26. Death and Resurrection:
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)

27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

28. New Earth:
On the new earth, in which righteousness dwells, God will provide an eternal home for the redeemed and a perfect environment for everlasting life, love, joy, and learning in His presence. For here God Himself will dwell with His people, and suffering and death will have passed away. The great controversy will be ended, and sin will be no more. All things, animate and inanimate, will declare that God is love; and He shall reign forever. Amen. (2 Peter 3:13; Isa. 35; 65:17-25; Matt. 5:5; Rev. 21:1-7; 22:1-5; 11:15.)

Any SDA member or leader who understands and rejects one or more of the 28FB must be disciplined in accordance with biblical counsel.

Amen! People are free to worship with like-minded believers wherever they choose (at least in certain countries). They are not free, however, to cause trouble within a church family by insisting its fundamental beliefs and core values are unbiblical. "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"

There is need of a much more thorough preparation of the candidates for baptism than has been given them. Satan does not want any one to see the necessity of an entire surrender to God. When the soul fails to make this surrender, sin is not forsaken; appetites and passions are striving for the mastery; temptations confuse the senses, so that true conversion may not take place. Whenever one renounces sin, which is the transgression of the law, his life will be brought into conformity to the law, into perfect obedience. This conformity to the mind and will of Christ is the work of the Holy Spirit. {6MR 156.2}

Before baptism there should be a thorough inquiry as to the experience of the candidate. Let this inquiry be made, not in a cold and distant way, but kindly, tenderly, pointing the new converts to the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world. Bring the requirement of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. Christ is represented as bearing the griefs and sorrows caused by sin, and he does this, not only as our sympathizing friend, but as our substitute. Therefore our sins of selfishness, of unamiable temper, of indolence, of wrong habits and practices, are to be positively and firmly put away. The one who breaks with Satan is to give no place to his temptations. Let the souls who come to Christ consider that He is the Sin-bearer, "wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." All this is done for the sinner, and as the sinner comes to Christ, helpless, penitent, and humble; as he views the expensive expiation made in his behalf, let the repenting soul lay hold by faith of the provision made to save him, not in his sin, but from his sin. Christ as the sin-bearer must take away the sin and rescue the sinner from his morbid spiritual condition. As he asks for a change of heart, the answer comes, "My son, give me thine heart." "A new heart will I give thee." I will restore you to a pure, holy atmosphere, that you, being dead to sin, may live unto righteousness. {6MR 157.1}

"Thy sins be forgiven thee." These words are spoken to the repentant, believing soul. Wonderful Saviour! All need to understand the process of conversion. The fruit is seen in the changed life. True repentance will be shown to be sincere by producing fruit in good works. None can depend upon their profession of faith as proof that they have a saving connection with Christ. It is by conformity to the will of God in our words, our deportment, our character that we prove our connection with him. We cannot depend on any other one to do our work for us. We must perform our duties for ourselves. We must work the will of God, and delight to do his commandments. Then we shall not lean upon any one but Jesus Christ for support and efficiency. {6MR 157.2}

One of the points upon which those newly come to the faith will need faithful instruction is the subject of dress. In the examination of candidates for baptism this subject should not be lost sight of. Let the new converts be faithfully dealt with. Are they vain in dress? do they cherish pride of heart? The idolatry of dress is a moral disease. It must not be taken over into the new life. In most cases submission to the gospel requirements will demand a decided change in the dress. True conversion of the heart will work wonderful changes in the outward appearance. {6MR 158.1}

This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches.

Jesus advised that the wheat and the tares grow until he sends his angels for the harvest. But I perceive that you wish to take that responsibility on yourself.

///

There is need of a much more thorough preparation of the candidates for baptism than has been given them. Satan does not want any one to see the necessity of an entire surrender to God. When the soul fails to make this surrender, sin is not forsaken; appetites and passions are striving for the mastery; temptations confuse the senses, so that true conversion may not take place. Whenever one renounces sin, which is the transgression of the law, his life will be brought into conformity to the law, into perfect obedience. This conformity to the mind and will of Christ is the work of the Holy Spirit. {6MR 156.2}

Before baptism there should be a thorough inquiry as to the experience of the candidate. Let this inquiry be made, not in a cold and distant way, but kindly, tenderly, pointing the new converts to the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world. Bring the requirement of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. Christ is represented as bearing the griefs and sorrows caused by sin, and he does this, not only as our sympathizing friend, but as our substitute. Therefore our sins of selfishness, of unamiable temper, of indolence, of wrong habits and practices, are to be positively and firmly put away. The one who breaks with Satan is to give no place to his temptations. Let the souls who come to Christ consider that He is the Sin-bearer, "wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." All this is done for the sinner, and as the sinner comes to Christ, helpless, penitent, and humble; as he views the expensive expiation made in his behalf, let the repenting soul lay hold by faith of the provision made to save him, not in his sin, but from his sin. Christ as the sin-bearer must take away the sin and rescue the sinner from his morbid spiritual condition. As he asks for a change of heart, the answer comes, "My son, give me thine heart." "A new heart will I give thee." I will restore you to a pure, holy atmosphere, that you, being dead to sin, may live unto righteousness. {6MR 157.1}

"Thy sins be forgiven thee." These words are spoken to the repentant, believing soul. Wonderful Saviour! All need to understand the process of conversion. The fruit is seen in the changed life. True repentance will be shown to be sincere by producing fruit in good works. None can depend upon their profession of faith as proof that they have a saving connection with Christ. It is by conformity to the will of God in our words, our deportment, our character that we prove our connection with him. We cannot depend on any other one to do our work for us. We must perform our duties for ourselves. We must work the will of God, and delight to do his commandments. Then we shall not lean upon any one but Jesus Christ for support and efficiency. {6MR 157.2}

One of the points upon which those newly come to the faith will need faithful instruction is the subject of dress. In the examination of candidates for baptism this subject should not be lost sight of. Let the new converts be faithfully dealt with. Are they vain in dress? do they cherish pride of heart? The idolatry of dress is a moral disease. It must not be taken over into the new life. In most cases submission to the gospel requirements will demand a decided change in the dress. True conversion of the heart will work wonderful changes in the outward appearance. {6MR 158.1}

The subject of health reform has been presented in the churches; but the light has not been heartily received. The selfish, health-destroying indulgences of men and women have counteracted the influence of the message that is to prepare a people for the great day of God. If the churches expect strength, they must live the truth which God has given them. If the members of our churches disregard the light on this subject, they will reap the sure result in both spiritual and physical degeneracy. And the influence of these older church members will leaven those newly come to the faith. The Lord does not now work to bring many souls into the truth, because of the church members who have never been converted and those who were once converted but who have backslidden. What influence would these unconsecrated members have on new converts? Would they not make of no effect the God-given message which His people are to bear? {6T 370.3}

What statements?

Amen!

J: Jesus advised that the wheat and the tares grow until he sends his angels for the harvest. But I perceive that you wish to take that responsibility on yourself.

M: James, why do you think so?

K: Uh, could it be that James thinks you do from the statements you have made?

M: What statements?

K: I've tried to find, but could not locate . . .

M: Amen!

J: Why do you say amen? Both are not referring to the same signs.

Signs? What do you mean?

I have never said I would like to separate the wheat and tares myself. That responsibility rests with Jesus.

However, members and leaders who reject fundamental SDA beliefs and actively work to persuade other SDA to join them should be disciplined subject to disfellowshipment.

Continuing, by whom?
By whom are you personally urging separation?

What cookies.

Continuing, by whom?
By whom are you personally urging separation?

Signs for judgment.

In the parable of the wheat and tares, the sower sows GOOD SEED IN HIS FIELD. First, it is HIS field and secondly, he sows only GOOD seed: i.e. fruitful seed. Tares do not bear any fruit. What Jesus told his servants in effect was this, "Don't throw anyone out merely because they are pew-warmers, reluctant to speak, is not active among the members, has a low profile ...." The sign of a tare is one who is not actively engaged in multiplying while others are.

You can think of a tare as, for example, an SDA who has lost faith in EGW or the direction of the denomination. He does not actively support the evangelistic ministry of his congregation. From a denominational perspective, he is obviously a fruitless tare distinct from the fruitful wheat. Jesus says not to dis-fellowship such a one, lest others become discouraged by your actions and leave as well. A good example of this is Desmond Ford. They uprooted him and he took with him a "thousand" others, and the denomination fell into the trap of creating a creed for themselves, walling themselves into an ivory tower.

THIS IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM 1 CORINTHIANS 5.

There Paul is advising the congregation rightly to dis-fellowship the immoral, when the signs of abominable behaviour are blatantly obvious. For example, the Vatican was in order in their judgment against their own priests convicted of pedophilia.

There's a difference between disciplining for immoral practice like pedophilia versus disciplining for FB beliefs.

[quote=Elle]... SDA members and leaders who understand and reject fundamental SDA beliefs and actively work to persuade other SDA to join them in their efforts to tear down fundamental SDA beliefs. ... require discipline.

I reject your idea that it doesn't matter what SDA Church members and leaders believe now. The truth as it is in Jesus matters very much. Our salvation depends on it. I reject your idea that fundamental beliefs cannot be known with certainty now, that they are evolving and uncertain, that they are subject to change, that we must be tentative, flexible, open-minded. Our status and standing as the Remnant Church of God hinges on us practicing and boldly proclaiming the truth as it is in Jesus.

Alchemy, I agree. Things have go on for too long. Too many congregations have tolerated too many open sins. Eventually Jesus will shake the church. Only true, dedicated SDA will remain to proclaim the 3AM. Those members and leaders who reject fundamental beliefs will go out and join the ranks of opposition. The time to pray for them is - NOW. The time to work to save them from ruin is - NOW.

Knowledge is progressive. Those that have locked themselves into an ivory tower and thrown away the key are prisoners, not free. They are not children of light.

I am absolutely certain, beyond doubt, what I believe is true. I am free. As I continue to read and study the Word of God I discover new and fresh reasons to thank God for the truth that sets me free and keeps me free. The fundamental beliefs are biblical, and biblically sound.

Rev. 12:13-17 says ...

1. Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
   [...]
2. And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the [remnant] of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

It is patently obvious that the woman and the [remnant] of her offspring were in two different places at the same time: 1,260 days. During that self same time:

• the woman was protected IN THE WILDERNESS but
• the [remnant] of her offspring fell into war AT HOME.

Therefore, SDA prophesy falsely when they appropriate Rev. 12:17 to themselves.

The fellowship of like believers is an exercise of freedom of religion. There is no freedom of religion if a denomination MUST abide and accept into fellowship the vocal presence of people who come to denounce the congregations understanding of scripture. To insist that no one can be denied fellowship no matter how antagonistic they are to the beliefs of the congregation, is to deny the freedom of worship.

Everyone on this forum is doing this. Expressing their faith and their believes in their own (human) words. We all know that people see the words of scripture differently. Like James insisting the Rev. 12:13 and 17 are talking about the same time, when others see it obviously talking about time before "the earth helps the woman" and after "the earth helps the woman".

I cannot go my entire life wondering if what I believe is true or false. Yes, the journey to the truth as it is in Jesus is progressive. But eventually we reach a point where the truth sets us free. I have reached that point. I am absolutely certain, beyond doubt, what I believe is true. I am free. As I continue to read and study the Word of God I discover new and fresh reasons to thank God for the truth that sets me free and keeps me free. The fundamental beliefs are biblical, and biblically sound.

"...with ProdigalOne, going further in demanding the heads of all who say nay, trying desperately to co-op Admin into carrying out his wishes." Strange... I don't recall saying any of the above? Would anyone care to find the post in which I, "demanding the heads of all who say nay"? If such a post cannot be found, then it would appear to be a lie, deliberately perpetrated by a member of this forum with the express purpose of damaging the reputation of a fellow member.

The same member spreading this lie has also deliberately lied, either in his application and profile, by claiming not to be an SDA member, or in a thread wherein he claimed in fact to be an SDA member: both claims cannot be true. The last time I checked, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." was still Commandment number nine. Perhaps, obedience of The Ten Commandments is a Fundamental Belief that the "progressive truth" espoused by an increasing number of members, reject? Interpretive disagreement is acceptable. Outright, commandment breaking on membership applications and on forum threads is another matter! By the way, no one, including myself, is, "trying desperately to co-op Admin into carrying out our wishes." I have no doubt that Daryl is well aware of all activity on the threads; he has years of experience in these matters and I respect his judgement.

Amen, Mountain Man! I would add that any new "progressive" revelations of Truth will never contradict the Light we have already been given. Jesus brought us revelations of the New Covenant, but He never contradicted the Old Covenant. "Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17

The attitudes of certain members of this forum strongly remind me of something called "The One Project", a series of seminars intended to "reform" the SDA Church. The "progressive truth" taught in these, so called, Christ centered SDA Seminars minimizes and openly mocks our distinctive teachings. It is interesting that such a blatantly anti Adventist movement is not rebuked or disciplined by Church leadership. In fact it is being increasingly embraced...

If there is no thread on this topic I may start one. This is something we should all be aware of! The link to a Church member's first encounter with The One Project at a two day seminar is here.

I don't understand your questions. Please rephrase them. Thank you.

to discuss fundamental beliefs.

Again, referenced before, according to your interpretation and adding to them?

But why are you against James. Isn't Jesus in control, James is not doing it without Jesus permitting him to, to work out for good? Does James even have a choice in the matter?

I guess it depends what the forum's purpose for being is?

If it's a place where people are invited to shout down Adventist beliefs -- then I suppose we need to either accept it, or move on.

But if it's to be a place where Adventist beliefs are respected and shared in a positive way, it's a different matter -- then the posters should either respect those beliefs or move on.


One thing I've noticed on most forums--

Antagonists to the Adventist beliefs will DEMAND acceptance, but they rarely give it.
They talk much of "freedom in religious beliefs" but will not extend that freedom to Adventists.

One thing I've noticed on most forums -- Antagonists to the Adventist beliefs will DEMAND acceptance, but they rarely give it. They talk much of "freedom in religious beliefs" but will not extend that freedom to Adventists.

Hopefully, we can set a good example here. But, I do agree with the thought that there has to be a limit to what we tolerate from NON-SDA's.

There was a time when Jesus stood up and said unless anyone ate his flesh and drank his blood, he had no part in him. Many left at that saying and no longer walked with him. So he turned to the twelve and asked if they were going to leave too. "Simon Peter answered Him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.' Jesus answered them, 'Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?'" (John 6:68-70)

Strangely, for SDA that is, we still find Judas at the end sitting at Jesus' table, and Jesus washing his feet. There is a strange disconnect, strange I say, between the Saviour of the world and SDA who walk about in long white robes desiring to abide forever in the caves and rocks, scrubbing and washing their hands seven times a day, and listening only to the sounds of their own voices raised in "holy" unison.

///

Interesting James Peterson, you apply Liberty of Conscience to abuse the conscience of others. You are no judge in Israel.

I guess it depends what the forum's purpose for being is?

If it's a place where people are invited to shout down Adventist beliefs -- then I suppose we need to either accept it, or move on.

But if it's to be a place where Adventist beliefs are respected and shared in a positive way, it's a different matter -- then the posters should either respect those beliefs or move on.


One thing I've noticed on most forums--

Antagonists to the Adventist beliefs will DEMAND acceptance, but they rarely give it.
They talk much of "freedom in religious beliefs" but will not extend that freedom to Adventists.