Zehariah chapter four

Zechariah 4 - By My Spirit, Says the Lord

A. Zechariah’s vision.

4:1-3
Now the angel who talked with me came back and wakened me, as a man who is wakened out of his sleep. 2 And he said to me, “What do you see?”
So I said, “I am looking, and there is a lampstand of solid gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven pipes to the seven lamps. 3 Two olive trees are by it, one at the right of the bowl and the other at its left.”


As Zechariah rubs his eyes trying to wake up, he sees a solid gold lampstand with seven lamps and a bowl on top.
In addition to the lampstand, Zechariah saw something that was never in the temple - two olive trees that supplied the seven lamps with oil through seven pipes. Now in the temple the lampstands had to be continually refilled with oil, but in this vision, Zechariah sees “self-filling” lamps, fed directly from two olive trees.

Zechariah asks for an explanation of the vision.

4:4,5 So I answered and spoke to the angel who talked with me, saying, “What are these, my lord?” Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.”

What are these, my lord? Zechariah saw the vision, but didn’t understand what it meant.

Zechariah lived in a time of uncertainty; the remnant of Israel had returned from exile, they had attempted to rebuild the temple but adversity discouraged them and the work had stopped and actually regressed as their former work was destroyed by their adversaries. The people were gripped with discouragement and fear. God called the prophet Zechariah to give them hope and courage to renew their work in building the temple and re-establishing its services. The visions emphasized that it wasn’t by their might or power, but by the Holy Spirit that the work would be accomplished – Also, the task of preparing each heart as a purified temple for the Lord’s indwelling can ultimately be accomplished only by cooperating with Him; His Spirit accomplishes that which human effort is powerless to achieve.

B. The meaning of the vision

4:6-7
So he answered and said to me: “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the Lord of hosts. Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain! And he shall bring forth the capstone with shouts of “Grace, grace to it!”

Zerubbabel was the governor of the returned exiles, and had the responsibility to direct the finishing of the work of rebuilding the temple. To Zerubbabel the work of rebuilding the temple was so massive it seemed like a great mountain. Here God promises that by His Spirit, that great mountain will be leveled into a plain.
Zerubbabel would bring forth the capstone with shouts of “Grace, grace to it!” This is God’s assurance to Zerubbabel that not only will the work be finished, but Zerubbabel , himself shall finish it, setting the capstone and declaring that it was all a work of grace.

Might and power focuses on human resources, on collective and individual strength. God says, --not by the resources of many or one, but by My Spirit. It will not be by your cleverness, your ability, or your physical strength that the temple will be rebuilt, but by the Spirit of God.

“There is nothing that Satan fears so much as that the people of God shall clear the way by removing every hindrance, so that the Lord can pour out His Spirit upon a languishing church and an impenitent congregation. If Satan had his way, there would never be another awakening, great or small, to the end of time. But we are not ignorant of his devices. It is possible to resist his power. When the way is prepared for the Spirit of God, the blessing will come. Satan can no more hinder a shower of blessing from descending upon God’s people than he can close the windows of heaven that rain cannot come upon the earth. Wicked men and devils cannot hinder the work of God, or shut out His presence from the assemblies of His people, if they will, with subdued, contrite hearts, confess and put away their sins, and in faith claim His promises.—(Selected Messages, bk. 1, 124.)

God wanted Zerubbabel (as well as all His faithful followers) to know that the Holy Spirit would continually supply his need, just as the oil trees in the vision continually supplied oil to the lamps on the lampstand. God wants His supply and our reliance on the Holy Spirit to be continual.

"Those who bear responsibilities need to place themselves where they will be deeply impressed by the Spirit of God. You should have as much greater anxiety than do others for the aid of the Holy Spirit and for a knowledge of God as your position of trust is more responsible than that of others. Nothing is more needed in our work than the practical results of communion with God." {HDL 59.2}

When the work is done through human might or power we tend to take credit for it, but when the work is done by the continual supply of the Spirit, then it is all to the glory of God’s grace.

More encouragement for Zerubbabel.

4:8-10
Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying: “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands shall also finish it. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you. For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven rejoice to see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the Lord, which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth.”

His hands shall finish it: When the work is done by God’s Spirit there are not only resources to begin the work, but also to finish the work. God is a finisher “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ” ( Philippians 1:6).

For who has despised the day of small things?
God does not despise the day of small things. He can take our consecrated smallness and with His Spirit perform big things. Consecrating our littles to Him will bring a wonderful increase.

For these seven rejoice to see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel.

The seven are the eyes of the Lord mentioned in this same passage. They rejoice when they see Zerubbabel take up the plumb line and move forward with the building work. The eyes of the Lord see it all, and He rejoices to see His people by faith engaged in the work.

Do we despised the day of small things? Thinking it is impossible to do God’s work because the resources aren’t there, the opposition too strong, the talent lacking-- or do we neglect doing our part because we think it’s “too little” and insignificant?

“Those who have the smallest gifts are not excused from using the very best gifts they have, and in so doing their talents will be increased. It is not safe to trifle with moral responsibilities nor to despise the day of small things”. 4T 618

Though the work was empowered by the Spirit of God, Zerubbabel still needed to take up his plumb line and move forward with the work. God could have instantly, miraculously finished the work, but that isn’t God’s way of doing things. He desires to build our characters by inviting us to co-operate with Him.

c. Zechariah apparently understood the message of encouragement to Zerubbabel, but he wondered how it connected to the vision of the olive trees and the lampstand, so he asks another question:

4:11-14 Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees; at the right of the lampstand and at its left?” And I further answered and said to him, “What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?” Then he answered me and said, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” So he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.”

THE TWO OLIVE TREES:

What are these two olive trees each with a branch dripping into golden pipes supplying the bowl above the candlesticks?
The angel did not tell Zechariah who “the two anointed ones” are. He simply identified them as the source of the “oil” and therefore the source of light.
AND that they stand in the presence of God.

How does Revelation 11:3-4 explain the two olive trees?

There the two anointed ones are called “two witnesses” in Revelation 11, and they are none other than God's Word, written by Old and New Testament prophets. God’s Word prophesied in “sackcloth” for 1260 years.

“The two witnesses represent the Scriptures of the Old and the New Testament. Both are important testimonies to the origin and perpetuity of the law of God. Both are witnesses also to the plan of salvation. The types, sacrifices, and prophecies of the Old Testament point forward to a Saviour to come. The Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament tell of a Saviour who has come” GC 267

So in this vision we see God’s Word (two olive trees) with truth flowing through two tubes into a bowl from which seven tubes supply seven candlesticks with oil so they have light.

THE SEVEN LAMPS ON THE CANDLESTICK

In this vision the candlestick symbolizes Zerubbabel in particular, as he is to move forward by the power of the Holy Spirit.

However, it also represents the church or the people of Christ.
The seven candle sticks in Revelation one, represent the churches.

This we understand from Revelation 1:20 “The seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.”

The oil in the candlestick of the sanctuary was directed seven ways, representing the fact that the Holy Spirit does a perfect work for God’s people around the world. The lampstands represent God’s people, who are to be reflectors of His glory.
Matt. 5:14 “Ye are the light of the world.”

THE SEVEN TUBES

These represent the pastors or ministers who are to feed the church with God’s Word.
Again we turn to Revelation Chapter one and see this represented as seven stars or messengers to the seven churches, to which the apostle John sends his seven letters to the churches who are then to share these letters with their congregations.

TWO PIPES

Yet the oil must flow through two pipes for it to be effective.

“The Holy Spirit is doing its work on the hearts. But if the ministers have not first received their message from heaven, if they have not drawn their own supplies from the refreshing, life-giving stream, how can they let that flow forth which they have not received? What a thought, that hungry, thirsty souls are sent away empty! A man may lavish all the treasures of his learning, he may exhaust the moral energies of his nature, and yet accomplish nothing, because he himself has not received the golden oil from the heavenly messengers; therefore it cannot flow forth from him, imparting spiritual life to the needy. The tidings of joy and hope must come from heaven. Learn, oh, learn of Jesus what it means to abide in Christ! {TM 338.1}

Who then can turn the written Word of God into life giving oil ?
No, it's not any human being, for all humans must first receive the truth through this life giving source.


Who are the ones who stand in the Presence of God yet communicate heavenly truth home to the hearts, minds and souls of mankind?

Heavenly angels have a part –

Let every man who enters the pulpit know that he has angels from heaven in his audience. And when these angels empty from themselves the golden oil of truth into the heart of him who is teaching the word, then the application of the truth will be a solemn, serious matter. The angel messengers will expel sin from the heart, unless the door of the heart is padlocked and Christ is refused admission. Christ will withdraw Himself from those who persist in refusing the heavenly blessings that are so freely offered them. {TM 337.2}

Now turn to Revelation One once more:

Who is it that stands by the candlesticks in Revelation chapter one?

There we see Christ standing among the candlesticks, there is a sword emanating from Christ’s mouth. Paul speaks of the “the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God”. Eph. 6:17 compare with Hebrews 4:12.

Hebrews 1:2 also tells us that in these last days God has spoken to us by His Son. It is by beholding Christ that the truths of God’s Word become a living reality to us.

The other ONE Who stands in the Presence of God, is the Holy Spirit.
“Without the Spirit of God a knowledge of His word is of no avail. The theory of truth, unaccompanied by the Holy Spirit, cannot quicken the soul or sanctify the heart”: COL 408

The truth of God's Word is brought to life in the hearts and minds of people by Christ and the Holy Spirit.

THE OIL
The oil is that which the presence of the Holy Spirit imparts to us, it is “the oil of the Spirit”. The Holy Spirit Himself is a person, as God is a person, He is “(the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit”.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2}

His presence fills us with conviction, truth, wisdom and understanding, steadfastness, discernment, commitment, courage to stand true to God, and changes our carnal natures into Christlike characters to shine for God!

That is the oil which His presence in our lives imparts. To be filled with the “oil of the Spirit” is what we all need if we will be part of the five wise bridesmaids awaiting the coming of the Christ.


Not by might, nor by power
But by my Spirit says the Lord.

Amen! Thank you, Jesus.

We are going to dis-sect this Zech. 4 interpretation. First let us start the symbol descriptions.

Oil--
the oil is the Holy Spirit. (Test. to Ministers, p.188)

"The golden oil represents the Holy Spirit."

the oil is the righteousness of Christ (TM, p.234)

"Now is the time to entreat that souls shall not only hear the word of God, but without delay secure oil in their vessels with their lamps. That oil is the righteousness of Christ."

the oil is truth. (TM, p.337, 338)

"And when these angels empty from themselves the golden oil of truth into the heart of him who is teaching the word, then the application of the truth will be a solemn, serious matter."

the righteousness of Christ is pure unadulterated truth.(TM, p.65)

"..for the righteousness of Christ, which is pure, unadulterated truth."

the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of TRUTH. (John 16:13)

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth.."

The Two Olive Trees--

The trees represent the Bible—Old & New Testaments as evidenced--

they are the two witnesses representing the Old and New Testaments(GC, p.267)

"The two witnesses represent the Scriptures of the Old and the New Testament. Both are important testimonies to the origin and perpetuity of the law of God. Both are witnesses also to the plan of salvation."

they are the same as the two witnesses.(Rev.11:3,4)

"And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."

they are the two anointed ones.(Zech. 4:14)

"Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

Our first question--: If the trees represent the Bible (Old and New Testaments) then what comes from the Bible?

God's written word contains the truth.
However, this truth can be sorely misinterpreted and misapplied by human beings. Thus the message of Zechariah 4 is:

NOT BY MIGHT AND NOT BY POWER --
Not by any human strength but by My Spirit.

It is the through Christ and the Holy Spirit that those words become OIL.

Zechariah 3 explains the righteousness that comes through Christ,
Zechariah 4 explains the "oil of the Spirit" which the Holy Spirit implants within the hearts and minds of those who seek Him for wisdom.

THE OIL
The oil is that which the presence of the Holy Spirit imparts to us, it is “the oil of the Spirit”. The Holy Spirit Himself is a person, as God is a person, He is “(the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit”.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2}


John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, (in the name of Jesus) he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:


His presence and teaching fills us with conviction, truth, wisdom and understanding, steadfastness, discernment, commitment, courage to stand true to God, and changes our carnal natures into Christlike characters to shine for God! The Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus our Savior.

That is the oil which the Holy Spirit's presence in our lives imparts. To be filled with the “oil of the Spirit” is what we all need if we will be part of the five wise bridesmaids awaiting the coming of the Christ.

To read scripture without the Holy Spirit's presence is to bypass the golden tubes that make it living oil for our salvation.

These two golden tubes that pour out the truths of salvation from the scripture as life giving oil into human hearts are not human beings, they are Christ and His Holy Spirit.

Every human being must first diligently seek their aid if they wish to pass on some of this oil to others.

Before we go further, here is a picture of what Zechariah saw in the vision of Zech. 4 Zech. 4 picture

We asked this question in our last post--

Our first question--: If the trees represent the Bible (Old and New Testaments) then what comes from the Bible?

The answer to our question is -- Revealed Truth.

Since oil comes from the trees, then the oil must especially represent present truth, truths needed for the time in which we live--the product of the trees (old and new Scriptures)

"There are many precious truths contained in the Word of God, but it is “present truth” that the flock needs now." (Early Writings, p.63)

So the lesson God has for us is building a solid basis from which to learn His Inspired truth. As we go on we'll see how this prophecy keeps us from "private interpretation', a kind of full proof way of not getting deceived (if we follow it).

Next post we'll look at more of the symbols.

Think this through a little more.

TWO TREES
One represents the Old Testament
The other the New Testament

One golden tube comes from the Old Testament dripping oil into the bowl.
The other golden tube comes from the New Testament dripping oil into the bowl.

So what is in the bowl?
The Old Testament Scriptures are blended with the New in an explanation of Jehovah's eternal purpose.
These truths the Holy Spirit brings home to our hearts establishing the kingdom of grace within, and fitting us to spend eternity with Him.

When we try to change the symbols to represent finite human beings, we are missing the whole point of the vision.

That oil flows
Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit says the Lord.

"We have not only the great light committed to ancient Israel, but we have also the increased evidence of the great salvation brought to us through Christ. That which was type and symbol to the Jews is reality to us. They had the Old Testament history; we have that and the New Testament also. We have the assurance of a Saviour who has come,--a Saviour who has been crucified, has risen, and has proclaimed over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In our knowledge of Jesus and his love, the kingdom of God has been placed in the midst of us. Christ has been proclaimed to us {RH, January 17, 1899 par. 14}

Ded- So what is in the bowl?
The Old Testament Scriptures are blended with the New in an explanation of Jehovah's eternal purpose.

This is what brother Houteff says! He calls it the Spirit of Prophecy, which is what both the OT and NT contain.

Ded- When we try to change the symbols to represent finite human beings, we are missing the whole point of the vision.

yes be careful

Continuing with our study of Zech. 4--

The Two Pipes

Now here we must put on our spiritual glasses and discern this most important part of the symbolic vision, a key to our lesson.

Spirit of Prophecy explains--

"From the two olive trees, the golden oil was emptied through golden pipes into the bowl of the candlestick and thence into the golden lamps that gave light to the sanctuary. So from the holy ones that stand in God's presence, His Spirit is imparted to human instrumentalities that are consecrated to His service. The mission of the two anointed ones is to communicate light and power to God's people.

It is to receive blessing for us that they stand in God's presence. As the olive trees empty themselves into the golden pipes, so the heavenly messengers seek to communicate all that they receive from God. The whole heavenly treasure awaits our demand and reception; and as we receive the blessing, we in our turn are to impart it. Thus it is that the holy lamps are fed, and the church becomes a light bearer in the world." (Testimonies to Ministers, p.510)



Ah, what beauty and clear explanations of the symbolic prophesy! The "two pipes" represent Inspired messengers (prophets in the form of human instrumentalities) that "communicate all that they receive from God." In other words, they are the ones who are allowed to rightly and divinely go into the "trees" (The OT and NT) to extract the oil to place it in the Golden Bowl, for our blessings!

Imagine this for a moment, there are millions of pipes going into the trees and putting oil into the bowl for the candlesticks! This is exactly what mankind is trying to do today. Thousands upon thousands of "private interpretations" grabbing what they want from OT and NT (trees) and tossing it into the bowl (Spirit of Prophecy-Revelations). God foresaw this and made this prophesy to warn us against this practice.

Let us go back to Dedications statement--
Ded- Who then can turn the written Word of God into life giving oil ?
No, it's not any human being, for all humans must first receive the truth through this life giving source.

From learning what we have seen from Inspiration and not "private interpretation" we see that her statement is not in harmony with Inspiration. God uses humans blessed by His knowledge(heavenly messengers-prophets)-- "His Spirit is imparted to human instrumentalities that are consecrated to His service."

"all humans" cannot go directly to the tress and properly understand the prophecies UNLESS they go through the "pipes" which only God directs. The prophets can only be these "heavenly messengers" that can do the extraction, not "all humans".

Further evidence that unauthorized humans not allowed by God cannot know God's future plans we read--

Amos 3:7-- Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

1 Peter 1:20-21--Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Some perfect examples of the unauthorized interpretations is the Sunday keeper doctrines-- State of the dead, Sunday observance, Commandments no longer in force, etc. Now, do we think Satan stops there?? Now way! His real fun is when he gets SDA people to engage in their own private interpretations! This is a whole lot more fun for him because the great light imparted to His remnant church is twisted and made to look --almost true!!

ONLY those who stick with His plan as outlined in Zech. 4 will be safe from false interpretations--let us be careful!

In our next post we'll look at the "bowl" and "candlestick" and "seven pipes".

Concerning the two witnesses the prophet declares further: "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." "Thy word," said the psalmist, "is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." Revelation 11:4; Psalm 119:105. The two witnesses represent the Scriptures of the Old and the New Testament. Both are important testimonies to the origin and perpetuity of the law of God. Both are witnesses also to the plan of salvation. The types, sacrifices, and prophecies of the Old Testament point forward to a Saviour to come. The Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament tell of a Saviour who has come in the exact manner foretold by type and prophecy. {GC 267.1}

Indeed there are people consecrated to God through whom God can communicate truth.
These are represented by the seven pipes.

It is only those who stand in the presence of God -- Christ and the Holy Spirit, who can draw the oil from the scriptures and place it in human hearts and minds so they can share it with others.

Remember
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mtt. 24:11"

If all people do not have the right to go to the scripture itself in prayer to discover the truth, how would they know which modern days prophets are true and which are false?




and in the last thread where he posted this same study he concluded:



It's no secret who GLL thinks is that "other" = he believes it is Houteff.

It is purely a Shepherd Rod interpretation.
This interpretation is engineered to elevate Houteff above scripture.

And remember Houteff and his followers also claim EGW did not fully understand the prophecies. How many times have SRod followers told me that? How many times when I've quoted passages from EGW that speak directly contrary to Houteff's "interpretations" have I been told I must not quote her? Many times!!!

Thus the Shepherd Rod's logical conclusion is -- only V. Houteff has the final right to interpret scripture. If Houteff appears to agree with EGW then she is a "prophetess of God", if she doesn't agree with Houteff, then we are told we must not quote from her.

The whole protestant reformation rose up against just such a teaching that restricts Bible interpretation to one or tiny group of men.

The Catholic church claimed only she had the right to interpret the scriptures. The protestant reformers read the scriptures and saw those interpretations were not truth, and determined to give the people the Bible so they could find truth for themselves.

Even if a so-called prophet has 95% truth, but has one or two huge errors that lead people to a completely different destination, they are wrong.

Houteff and EGW cannot both be true prophets.
They do not lead to the same kingdom.

Ded- If all people do not have the right to go to the scripture itself in prayer to discover the truth, how would they know which modern days prophets are true and which are false?

First of all, this question needs to be answered by Scripture. When we look at the Holy Word we find that ONE last prophet is to come "Elijah" and he is to "restore all things"(meaning to restore the Truth, doctrines, hearsay, false ideas and interpretations, etc.).

So your idea about "modern prophets" is without merit and non-Scriptural. Be careful as I really see you are not being guided by the "Spirit of Truth" but by some strange deceiving spirit.

What is Scripture and SOP? Is it written by Tom, Dick and Harry? or by Inspired "consecrated" messengers (prophets) of God?

We may be able to gleam precious truth from Scripture but the "prophecies" that which tell what the Lord --will do, comes ONLY by His prophets. it is THEIR interpretations we must know and teach.

Amos 3:7-- "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

A perfect example is Dedication using Isaiah 14:13-14 to say that it is additional proof supporting her idea of Satan's kingdom in Israel during the Loud Cry. Pure private interpretation.

We know as we have shown that EGW strictly describes this verse as the time in heaven when Satan was in rebellion

Or the many times she tried to portray Isaiah 2:2-4 into a time of the 490 years (at their end) or the "new earth" application, both of which cannot be sustained as we have repeatedly shown. God has said it clearly-- it can only happen pre-millennially.

As far as Houteff and her wasteful comments , we'll leave that for addressing later. we still await her proof from SRod of her fanatical belief that--
Davidians will some day soon slaughter SDA in the churches, what blasphemy. Without any evidence from SRod.

So if we are not to study scripture for ourselves who is to say which self proclaimed prophet is Elijah?


True, scripture says:
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

But scripture also warns us that false prophets and false Christs will appear, saying, Lo here, and Lo there. And we are NOT to listen to them, for when Christ comes it will be in the clouds of glory like lightening from east to west (See Matt. 24 and Luke 17:21-24)

Also, where does Malachi say there is a second, superior prophet, after a first incomplete prophet ?

Malachi speaks of only one -- that one was EGW, and she would never place herself above the Bible but urges everyone to search the scriptures for themselves, a lesser light pointing to the greater light, and that all who present the last message will share in giving this message.



John the Baptist went forth in the spirit and power of Elijah, to prepare the way of the Lord, and to turn the people to the wisdom of the just. He was a representative of those living in the last days, to whom God has intrusted sacred truths to present before the people, to prepare the way for the second appearing of Christ. {CTBH 39.1}
As John the Baptist prepared the way for Christ's first coming, so we are to prepare the way for His second coming. {BCL 88.2}

The whole claim that God didn't reveal to EGW the proper endtime condition in which God's people would find themselves, is not correct. He did reveal it to her in considerable detail and it is very different from Houteff's interpretations.

"Many of our people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid. ... A line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God, was made plain to me, and I gave to others the instruction that the Lord had given me. {1SM 206.4}

In that "line of truth" she was shown God's people faced with the sunday law, persecution, saints fleeing (NOT to Jerusalem) but into the mountains. She was shown the seven plagues, the death decree, God's deliverance, the second coming, the New earth.

It seems inconceivable that God would leave out something as major as a temporal kingdom if that were really the great climax and crowning hope of His followers.




GLL WROTE: What is Scripture and SOP? Is it written by Tom, Dick and Harry? or by Inspired "consecrated" messengers (prophets) of God?

Scripture and true Spirit of Prophecy is inspired.

But how do we determine between the many false prophets which claim to have the "present truth" whether or not he is true?

It is ONLY by fortifying our minds with scripture, and comparing human interpretations with truths that are established.

Houteff is leading to a very different kingdom, than the one Jesus talks about in the New Testament.



GLL wrote: A perfect example is Dedication using Isaiah 14:13-14 to say that it is additional proof supporting her idea of Satan's kingdom in Israel during the Loud Cry. Pure private interpretation.
We know as we have shown that EGW strictly describes this verse as the time in heaven when Satan was in rebellion

No, there is no way those verses are "strictly" pertaining only to satan's rebellion in heaven! True Satan's rebellion began in heaven but it most certainly did not end there.

Isaiah 14:13-14 descripes Satan's ambitions.
And those ambitions did not end with his removal from heaven to this earth.

"All the vast, complicated machinery of evil agencies is put into action in these last days. Through generation after generation, from age to age, Satan has gathered human agencies through whom to work out his diabolical purposes, and to bring about the enforcement of his plans and devices in the earth. ... He considered that to be the god of this world was the next best thing to gaining possession of the throne of God in heaven."
RH April 1896


One of the biggest evidences for this counterfeit kingdom is the persistent emphases so many DIFFERENT groups place on it's upcoming establishment. The groundwork through so many apparently unrelated groups to merge on this, was orchestrated by the one who has determined to place his throne on the "sides of the north". And he will come impersonating Christ.




Psalms 48:1-2 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.
Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

Isaiah 14:13 For thou (Satan) hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.





Had the Jewish nation accepted Christ as their Messiah, their city would have been a light to the whole world.
Because they rejected the Prince of Life, their city would not – could not be the light to world, it was desolate.

“Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Matt.23:38.

"And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation," Dan. 9:27

Ded-Malachi speaks of only one -- that one was EGW,

******* STAFF EDIT ******* Dedication says that when the Lord says the "Elijah" --a male prophet no doubt, that is to come, He means a female--EGW!! Wow. then let us now destroy the word of SOP--

"The language of the Bible should be explained according to it's obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed."(GC, p.598)

I ask you-- Does the Lord mean that "Eliajh" should be a female? Has the Lord ever described a male prophet as a female name? Search and see.

Brethren, does the Elijah really mean a prophetess such as "Deborah" for example, or another female(Ellen White)? What deception and false hood. ******* STAFF EDIT *******

Ded- GLL wrote: A perfect example is Dedication using Isaiah 14:13-14 to say that it is additional proof supporting her idea of Satan's kingdom in Israel during the Loud Cry. Pure private interpretation.
We know as we have shown that EGW strictly describes this verse as the time in heaven when Satan was in rebellion

No, there is no way those verses are "strictly" pertaining only to satan's rebellion in heaven! True Satan's rebellion began in heaven but it most certainly did not end there.

Isaiah 14:13-14 descripes Satan's ambitions.
And those ambitions did not end with his removal from heaven to this earth.

"All the vast, complicated machinery of evil agencies is put into action in these last days. Through generation after generation, from age to age, Satan has gathered human agencies through whom to work out his diabolical purposes, and to bring about the enforcement of his plans and devices in the earth. ... He considered that to be the god of this world was the next best thing to gaining possession of the throne of God in heaven."
RH April 1896

Did she quote Inspiration for her proof that Isaiah 14:13-14 describes the Satan kingdom in the time of the Loud Cry? Do you see (RH April 1896) mention Isaiah 14:13-14, justifying her position?
Or was it her own private interpretation?

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." (1 Peter 1:20)

APL-The two witnesses represent the Scriptures of the Old and the New Testament.

Yes, indeed.

Continuing with our study--

The Golden Bowl

Since we have learned that the "Oil" represents in summary-- Revealed Truth, then through the two pipes (God's prophets) the Oil ends up in the "Golden Bowl". Which represents the published works of the Inspired messengers.The reservoir of Revealed Truth.

Candlestick with Seven Lamps(lights)

In order to understand this prophecy and meaning we need to know that the meaning of this symbol is our churches. It is not the world churches.

"The Lord Jesus has been present when they have been presenting that which was called sermons, but their words were destitute of the dew and rain of heaven. They evidenced that the anointed ones described by Zechariah (see chapter 4) had not ministered to them that they might minister to others. When the anointed ones empty themselves through the golden pipes, the golden oil flows out of themselves into the golden bowl, to flow forth into the lamps, the churches. (Testimonies to Ministers, p.337)

The Seven Pipes

With the above understanding of the Candlestick and lamps, then the ministry is represented by the tubes, whose duty is to feed the entire church with inspired Word of God only. Yet sadly, just as there are private laymen and women, who by pass the Two Pipes (divine messengers), there are ministers who practice this same "private interpretation".

Spirit of prophecy explains --

"The golden oil represents the Holy Spirit. With this oil God's ministers are to be constantly supplied, that they, in turn, may impart it to the church." (Ibid, p.188)

Summary

This prophectic symbolism shows us the Scriptural method to rightly understand God's word. When followed it divinely supplies us (His church) with the bright light (Oil) of Truth. The church indeed glows brightly to the world.

However beautiful in design, sadly the church is but flickering in a mass of private interpretations. God, our all knowing creator, knew ahead of time this would happen and thus sent His vision to the prophet Zechariah for predominantly our benefit. Have we used it, been blessed by this method? Each must answer this question.

"This divinely illustrated lesson is too plain to be misunderstood, or its meaning misconstrued. The only safe way by which God's servants and His church can be free from error, full of faith without guile in their mouth (all speak the same thing), is the never erring guide -- "The Spirit of Prophecy."

The acceptance of so-called truth, without inspiration, is the devil's trap of deception, and they who advocate such fallacious teachings are the hardest and most impossible ones to rescue from Satan's bottomless pit; for he makes them believe that confession of their errors would disqualify them for teachers, and dishonor their high standing.

He who denies inspired interpretation of the Scriptures is denying the office of the Holy Spirit, and is sinning against Him -- committing the unpardonable sin!" (SRod, vol. 2, p.286)

So if we are not to study scripture for ourselves and must rely on someone who says he is "Elijah" to understand anything -- who is to say which self proclaimed prophet is Elijah?


True, scripture says:
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:


But scripture also warns us that false prophets and false Christs will appear, saying, Lo here, and Lo there. And we are NOT to listen to them, for when Christ comes it will be in the clouds of glory like lightening from east to west (See Matt. 24 and Luke 17:21-24)



This is what scripture says about the last days:

MATT. 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


LUKE 17:22 (Jesus) answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it].
17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them].
17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.


These texts are pretty clear that we are NOT to listen to anyone who directs us to seek the kingdom "here" or "over there", --


It's not right to demand one must only accept the interpretation of one who is saying what those texts say we are not to listen to!

Dedication wrote -- Malachi speaks of only one -- that one was EGW,



In other words, even though GLL uses EGW's quotes and posts nice sounding explanations of the value of a prophet in the last days to guide the church, the above is pretty explicit that he does not regard EGW in that capacity.

We have experienced that in a number of situations already.
EGW MUST be regarded as subservient to Houteff in the Shepherd Rod teachings. If her position contradicts, then Houteff must be honored and EGW pushed aside.

The big flaw in GLL's presentations is that Houteff does not follow in the established light of the SOP before him. IF as he says, the bowl is established on revealed truth.

Early Seventh-day Adventists made a complete break with futurist-dispensationalist premillennialists; a belief that was very prevalent in their day. There was quite a verbal battle going on between 7th day Adventists and other "former Millerites" who were advocating a literalist interpretation of OT prophecies to Palestine.

God revealed to EGW --
" I was pointed to some who are in the great error of believing that it is their duty to go to Old Jerusalem,and think they have a work to do there before the Lord comes." EW 75

Yet, Houteff taught that all God's true people must to Old Jerusalem and think they have a great work to do there before the Lord comes.

How then can both EGW and Houteff be pouring out the same oil?
If the oil is revealed truth as GLL stated, and the two pipes are Houteff and EGW as GLL elsewhere stated -- we already have a great confusion of doctrine, as
EGW and Houteff interpret scripture differently.

Without wasting time with her roundabout points and ideas, Dedication still has to deal with this fact, which she hasn't--

Both Scripture and EGW speak of a "male" to come in the spirit of power of Elijah. (Mal 4:5 and Testimonies to Ministers, page 475).

She has "privately interpreted" the "Elijah" means "Ellen", which obviously, as we have learned, goes against the very instructions Zech. 4 was divinely sent.

When Ellen said , speaking of Elijah, "..when he appears.." Dedication is forced, by way of the deceiving spirit, to declare the "he" means "she".

For arguments sake, even if the Elijah to come was not brother Houteff, it would still have to be a male prophet. Otherwise the Lord's word would return void, something It cannot do.

Brethren, don't you fall trap to Satan's wiles. Keep Zech. 4 lesson firmly in mind as to God's method of understanding "Revealed Truth".

***** STAFF EDIT *****

The Jews tried to stop the proclamation of the message that had been predicted [some are doing the same thing today!] in the Word of God; but prophecy must be fulfilled. The Lord says, "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord" (Malachi 4:5). Somebody is to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, and when he appears, men may say, "You are too earnest, you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way. Let me tell you how to teach your message." {1SM 412.2}

There are many who cannot distinguish between the work of God and that of man. I [Ellen White] shall tell the truth as God gives it to me, and I say now, If you continue to find fault, to have a spirit of variance, you will never know the truth, Jesus said to His disciples, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now" (John 16:12). They were not in a condition to appreciate sacred and eternal things; but Jesus promised to send the Comforter, who would teach them all things, and bring all things to their remembrance, whatsoever He had said unto them. Brethren [hm - does is this speaking only to men? The language is masculine! Must be!! not], we must not put our dependence in man. "Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?" (Isaiah 2:22). You must hang your helpless souls upon Jesus. It does not become us to drink from the fountain of the valley, when there is a fountain in the mountain. Let us leave the lower streams; let us come to the higher springs. If there is a point of truth that you do not understand, upon which you do not agree, investigate, compare scripture with scripture[no need to run to the writings of a single man], sink the shaft of truth down deep into the mine of God's Word. You must lay yourselves and your opinions on the altar of God, put away your preconceived ideas, and let the Spirit of Heaven guide you into all truth.[The Spirit is the guide] {1SM 412.3}

Pictorial view of Zechariah 4--Zech. 4 lesson

APL-Brethren [hm - does is this speaking only to men? The language is masculine! Must be!! not], we must not put our dependence in man. "Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?" (Isaiah 2:22). You must hang your helpless souls upon Jesus. It does not become us to drink from the fountain of the valley, when there is a fountain in the mountain. Let us leave the lower streams; let us come to the higher springs. If there is a point of truth that you do not understand, upon which you do not agree, investigate, compare scripture with scripture[no need to run to the writings of a single man], sink the shaft of truth down deep into the mine of God's Word. You must lay yourselves and your opinions on the altar of God, put away your preconceived ideas, and let the Spirit of Heaven guide you into all truth.[The Spirit is the guide] {1SM 412.3}

We certainly must "Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?" (Isaiah 2:22).

There is a difference from ceasing from "man" and ceasing from a prophet(ess) of God. One you cease from one you don't. Allow me to explain.

"And He said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."(Luke 16:31)

Time and again God's word exhorts us to "hear..the prophets". For in THEM, God speaks to us. This fuzzy idea that we as His people are just like the prophets, we can go into the trees (the Testaments) and pull out our own oil (prophetic truth) and spread it around, will certainly doom us.

Two duties are basically the summary of mankind's walk with the Lord--

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecc. 12:13)

We as God's remnant are well familiar with the second of those commands, but how many of us truly observe and dwell upon the first!

When we do private interpretation and predict false things to come, or any false idea that the prophets of God have not said through His direction, we show no "fear" of the consequences.

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Rev.22:19)

But there is a big difference in understanding the aforementioned counsel and the following counsel--

"God has different ways of working, and He has different workmen to whom He entrusts varied gifts. One worker may.. another may have special power to explain the word of God with clearness. And each gift is to become a power for God, because He works with the laborer."(GC, p.483)


So while God prophetic word only comes through His prophets, His gift is bestowed to some "men and women" who have the ability to "explain it" more completely. BUT and this is important, their explanation will always be based on the Inspired writings

For instance if I say, God is going to do this---, and can't back it up with direct and clear references, I am not "explaining" it but rather promoting "private interpretations". This is the foundation of building private agendas and ideas.

The Sunday keepers are a perfect example. They cannot produce from the word of God, where He eliminated the seventh day Sabbath. They explain it away without ever producing Inspired references.

Again, this is the whole lesson of Zechariah 4, to "cease ye from man" and follow and explain His word as directed by the prophets, from God.

We should not take the testimony of any man as to what the Scriptures teach, but should study the words of God for ourselves. If we allow others to do our thinking, we shall have crippled energies and contracted abilities. The noble powers of the mind may be so dwarfed by lack of exercise on themes worthy of their concentration as to lose their ability to grasp the deep meaning of the word of God. The mind will enlarge if it is employed in tracing out the relation of the subjects of the Bible, comparing scripture with scripture and spiritual things with spiritual. {SC 89.3}

For sure -- we MUST study scripture for ourselves, seeking the guidance of God's Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth.

If we don't we will end up being deceived for:

Matt. 24:11 many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matt. 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.


Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here [is] Christ; or, lo, [he is] there; believe him not:
13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.


Luke 17:20 The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it].
17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them].
17:24 For as the lightning, that lightens out of the one part under heaven, shines unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Hebrew 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,

Rev21:1 I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
. 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Is the above truth???
Is it true that---
"People like Dedication, are who the Lord warns about because they frequently go directly into the trees, (remember the trees in Zech. 4 symbolize the scriptures) bypassing the Two Pipes,
(who GLL says refer to Houteff, and EGW -- however dedication has been told quite a number of times she must not quote EGW when EGW's statement when it was apparent those statements did not agree with Houteff's interpretations)
who are the only authorized messengers to do this. In the final analysis he is saying only Houteff is authorized to tell us what scriptures mean).
Let us be careful, God has stopped winking at the Cross. (The cross has nothing to do with Houteff being the ultimate interpreter of truth; the cross opened the door of salvation for him, the same as for every other person -- drawing us to Christ.


The theme of that passage in Zechariah is "not by might nor by power but by my Spirit says the Lord".

The TWO tubes from the two trees that draw out the oil from the scriptures, converting the words into the "oil of the spirit" represent Christ and the Holy Spirit -- they alone can take the words of scripture and bring them to life in the hearts and minds of men and women.

The human beings, those who share God's truths as well as those who seek truth for their own souls, must draw their truths from this DIVINE bowl of truth in which the words of scripture are empowered and given life saving meaning by the Holy Spirit.

Let us be careful, God has stopped winking at the Cross.

Oh - has God's character changed? Nope. What did the cross show?

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?

John 16:25-27 These things have I spoken to you in proverbs: but the time comes, when I shall no more speak to you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day you shall ask in my name: and I say not to you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

APL- Oh - has God's character changed? Nope. What did the cross show?

Yes,and amen to those Inspired words of God you quoted.

However, we must balance those with such as--

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."(Hebrews 10:26-27)

His sacrifice is ultimate, and we convert totally in return. Which absolutely means to stay away from "private interpretation" as well.

Ded-The theme of that passage in Zechariah is "not by might nor by power but by my Spirit says the Lord".

You are making up your own ideas again. This is not the theme. The lesson is to show that God's Inspired Interpreters are the ONLY ones allowed to go into the trees to pull out revealed "truth". Such private interpreters (as yourself) are forbidden, as per the symbolic lesson.

Furthermore, you have already been exposed as a "PI" such as Isaiah 14:13-14 indicating support for Satan to establish his kingdom in Israel during the Loud Cry. And Isaiah 2:2-4 having, among other things, a application in the new earth period.

All we asked is for INSPIRED references to back up your interpretations. You try and pull out this quote and that quote yet show no direct Inspirational support addressing those quotes meaning what you apply them to.

Spinning and twisting "may" fool a few but not Truth seekers.

Now my question to you is--does this pictorial vision show an accurate description of Zech.4? (drawn by brother Houteff by the way) If not let's see a better drawing from you. Zech. 4 Picture

The problem arises -- whose interpretation is "private" and whose is "inspired" FOR

Matt. 24:11 many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matt. 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.


As to Christ's kingdom in our present world -- it is the kingdom of Grace that works within the believers: it is not to be looked for in ANY geographical place.

Luke 17:20 The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it].
17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them].
17:24 For as the lightning, that lightens out of the one part under heaven, shines unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

If anyone says a visible kingdom is here or there, DO NOT GO, DO NOT FOLLOW THEM.

When Christ comes in glory as King of kings all will see it.

Ded- The problem arises -- whose interpretation is "private" and whose is "inspired"

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20)

And when we see people project end time events without Inspired references to back it up--it's private.

Furthermore, when they are shown their mistake and pridefully ignore correction and don't admit they have any applicable Inspired references, then the following applies--

"I have been shown that the greatest reason why the people of God are now found in this state of spiritual blindness is that they will not receive correction. Many have despised the reproofs and warnings given them."(Testimonies, vol. 3, p.255)

Now my question to you is--does this pictorial vision show an accurate description of Zech.4? (drawn by brother Houteff by the way) If not let's see a better drawing from you. Zech. 4 Picture

Forbidden by Houteff maybe, but not by God.
He invites everyone who thirsts to come to the water, and partake of His Word with the aid of His Holy Spirit.
No human has the authority to set themselves up as the sole interpreter of scripture.

I quoted the theme of the chapter straight from the chapter itself,
you put your own words and interpretation on this passage.


Zehariah 4:4 So I answered and spoke to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
4:5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Don't you know what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
4:6 Then he answered and spoke to me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.


Zechariah asks what it means
The angel answers -- not by might nor by power but by my Spirit, says the Lord.




Turn to the Lord, open His Word, pray for His Holy Spirit, and He will lead you into all truth.
(See John 16:13)

Do I think Houteff's drawing is correct? Not really.
While below is not a drawing it tries to depict the meaning --

Think TREE on far right and far left
BOWL in middle with candlestick underneath it.
Two pipes, one from each tree dripping oil into bowl.

Actually I believe Christ and the Holy Spirit place the oil of truth (the oil of the spirit) in the bowl of living truth, from both trees.

While I do believe God sends prophets to guide us, yet, they must be tested by scripture, not the other way around. They are never to block direct access to scripture, but rather point us to scripture to see if these things are so.


Indeed prophets need to be tested, for many false prophets will arise and will have messages designed to deceive the very elect.

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20)

APL- Oh - has God's character changed? Nope. What did the cross show?

gll - Yes,and amen to those Inspired words of God you quoted.

However, we must balance those with such as--

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."(Hebrews 10:26-27)

EGW - God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest.

The Two Olive Trees are seen again in Revelation 11.

Rev. 11:3-4 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees

The power which trod the people of God under foot for twelve hundred and sixty years was the papacy. (538-1798)
For twelve hundred and sixty day/years the life giving truths of God's Words was hidden as beneath a covering, of sackcloth.

The "two witnesses" are the Old and the New Testaments.
The Old Testament told of God our Creator and His salvation was revealed through symbols and types; the New Testament told of God, who had come (Immanuel, God with us) he lived in the human form, He, the One to whom the of the testimony of the OT pointed, is the reality in the NT, and the two witnesses agree.

The same mystery is revealed to each individual heart of those who seek to know God through His Word. Christ, the God-man, sat beside Jacob's well one day, when the Samaritan woman came to draw water. Likewise the holy Spirit drew the woman of Samaria to the well at the very hour when the Son of man was there. These two witnesses agree. For the OT was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit and Christ was filled with the Holy Spirit and taught the truths of the kingdom of heaven.



They, the Holy Spirit and Christ, are the "two olive branches through which the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves."

.

Life flows from the Old as well as the New Testament to those whose hearts are open channels for the Spirit. When connection with the living trees is severed, spiritual death is the result.

As John 15 reveals -- abide in Christ he is the living vine, a branch severed will soon wither and is bound for destruction, abide in Christ, and one is fruitful and blessed!


If the connecting pipes coming from the scripture (trees) is severed, meaning; if our relationship with Christ and our depending upon the guidance by the Holy Spirit, is severed, then we run out oil. The bowl will soon be empty.

Without the Spirit of God a knowledge of His word is of no avail. The theory of truth, unaccompanied by the Holy Spirit, cannot quicken the soul or sanctify the heart. One may be familiar with the commands and promises of the Bible; but unless the Spirit of God sets the truth home, the character will not be transformed. Without the enlightenment of the Spirit, men will not be able to distinguish truth from error,

Don't know if this was already presented

Yes, there is agreement on the two trees being the Old and New Testament.
And that is a good quote! For it shows the two trees themselves are the "witnesses" and the lamp and light to show us the path.

The disagreement comes, when GLL says the two tubes taking oil from the two trees and placing it in the bowl which then supplies the oil to the lampstand represents primarily Houteff and to a much lesser degree EGW.

And thus he has told us only they have any authority to interpret scripture.

A depiction of Zechariah chapter four

Zechariah Four

.

Ded- He invites everyone who thirsts to come to the water, and partake of His Word with the aid of His Holy Spirit.
No human has the authority to set themselves up as the sole interpreter of scripture.

Yes this is certainly true. However, and this is the part of the lesson which I think you miss-- the Inspired Interpreters are the ones that go into the trees (OT NT &SOP) to prophesie events to come.

SOP is clear about new truth to be revealed and found --

"Let no one come to the conclusion that there is no more truth to be revealed. The diligent, prayerful seeker for truth will find precious rays of light yet to shine forth from the word of God." (Counsels on Sabbath school Work, p.34)

But this is not the same as--

"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." (Amos 3:7)

Notice the "doing" of the Lord is first done by revealing it to His prophets. Not private people, who try and engage in private interpretations for self exaltation. Kind of like "hey everybody see how smart I am" type of self imaging. You predicting that there is to be a Satan kingdom in Israel in the time of the Loud Cry is a perfect example. that is not spoken of by any of "His Prophets". Yes, there is to be a kingdom in the world that will be run by Satan and his henchmen, yes, but it WILL NOT be based in Israel.

Ded-Turn to the Lord, open His Word, pray for His Holy Spirit, and He will lead you into all truth.
(See John 16:13)

Again this is true IF we do it. But as one who continually does not do what you tell others I suggest you do some mirror studies.

For example, God still has on record your false witnesses and character impugning of a group of people know as "Davidians".Is the "Holy Spirit" guiding her to slander and make up falsehood or is it another spirit?

We did a post to help those, who may see that Dedication cannot produce any statements from the writings of brother Houteff even REMOTELY suggesting an awful belief she has spoken in front of God and the world (Davidians will rise up and perform the Ezekiel 9 like slaughter in the SDA church someday soon)

"Who Really is a Davidian Seventh-day Adventist"

Are these SRod interpretations leading me to the Bible and to Christ, or are they trying to lead me to Houteff?

That is the BOTTOM line of the SRod interpretation of Zechariah 4. The final conclusion to the study is that in our day Houteff as the sole authorized interpreter of scriptures (and of EGW who is only regarded as inspired when she agrees with Houteff).

I do not agree with that. Yes, my thirst is for Biblical truth, not for Houteff interpretations.

And yes, two obvious points as to why I can not agree to Houteff's interpretations are mentioned.

1. The focus of SRod writings is on an earthly pre-second coming kingdom in Palestine. And yes, having been exposed to various prophetic movements, I've seen they tend to have a common goal -- a kingdom in Palestine. Houteff's biblical "proofs" for this kingdom are nothing new. Seventh-day Adventists have been refuting them since ever there was an Adventist.

And yes, that kingdom will come to a bitter end for it is not Christ's kingdom. Christ's kingdom is not of this world, He is preparing a people through His "kingdom of grace" which is to take place "within" us, for His eternal kingdom is in the NEW Jerusalem which is in heaven.

Also I did not say Satan's kingdom would be in Israel. Israel in the New Testament prophecy refers to GOD'S PEOPLE, the followers of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, Biblical New Testament Israel is not to a place.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. AND
Heb 11:10 [Abraham} looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

But Satan, in his final attempt to receive worship as if he were God, will attempt to set up a righteous sounding kingdom in Palestine -- using influential leaders who appear in the eyes of the people to be restoring peace and good principles, this will give the illusion needed that they are restoring "God's will" upon the world and moving humanity to better things -- and yes, they are expecting Christ to come to this kingdom -- but we are told Satan will impersonate Christ, and the world will shout "Christ has come" when it isn't Christ at all. Yes -- on the sides of the north -- on the glorious mountain, between the seas, but it will come to its end and none will help him.

EGW writes: " Then I was pointed to some who are in the great error of believing that it is their duty to go to Old Jerusalem, and think they have a work to do there before the Lord comes." EW 75


2. Another error
The timing of the special resurrection mentioned in Daniel 12:1
This resurrection takes place during seventh last plague well after probation has closed for the whole world and God steps in to deliver His people.
SRod place it before the LOUD CRY and maintain that the dead are raised to help in this work.
Since we are told that in the last days SPIRITUALISM will reach unprecedented heights in the efforts to deceive -- that Satan and his angels will appear as deceased people and even as Christ, such a misplacement of the "special resurrection" simply bypasses the doctrine of the "state of the dead" and opens the door wide to be deceived.



3. The last part of Ezekiel nine also takes place during the seventh plague, after God delivers His people from the death degree, and the lost realize they are lost. See GC 656 for the details.

SRod, maintain this execution takes place before the Sunday laws are passed, before the loud cry is given, and gets rid of all the Adventists who refuse Houteff. This, in their teachings must take place before they set up the kingdom and give the loud cry to the world.


I read GLL's depiction on his blog (solemn half hour silence part two)of Adventists going to church and sitting expectantly waiting for the pastor to begin his sermon, ALL THE DOORS mysteriously WERE LOCKED so they couldn't leave, and a how a big wind starts to blow and they all get killed (by supposedly angels), except for one or two who were reserved for a worse fate.

On the same blog-- someone sent in a question asking if this begins in the eastern states, then the people in the west would hear about it and not go to church (thus escaping the destruction)-- The answer given, was the doors could remain locked so the news wouldn't get out.
THIS (in a much longer story form) WAS ON GODSLOVEANDLAW blog.

Yes, after reading that I did write on the "counterfeit kingdom" thread, that such a depiction convinces me that SRod followers may well take things in their own hands.

GLL now presents those words as if I said it was definite that they would, but that was not the case.

Saying I am convinced they may well take things into their own hands is not the same as saying they definitely will -- I sincerely hope they won't.

Yet, the sense remains -- especially since Houteff teaches a special resurrection BEFORE the loud cry, and some SRod believe Houteff will resurrect and lead them. I asked GLL, what a SRod follower would do if a being, that looked like Houteff, talked like Houteff, and shared experiences unique to Houteff, appeared and told them it was God's will to do the cleansing, just as God had commanded Joshua of old? What would they do?

There was never an answer to that question.

Why would anyone write a scenario like that????
That sort of thing has been done by PEOPLE in various countries where religious intolerance has been practiced.

The appeal the SRod message has for some Adventists is it's "reform" part. The fact that worldliness has crept into the church and Adventist truths are being watered down, discourages many in the church and they long for reform.

Yet, we don't have to turn to SRod to find out what type of life we are to live --
We have plenty of counsel on those things.

We don't have to accept a movement with serious errors in their doctrine, in order to have reform. All we need to do is follow the counsel we already have, and make sure our connection, faith and trust in Christ is a vital connection.

The purification of the church will come by TESTING each person's commitment to truth. It will reveal him who serves and trusts God and him that serves him not. For everyone in the church will be faced with a choice -- join the popular ecumenical movement, or stand fast on truths having a deep faith in Christ and "following the Lamb" in obedience, trust and love.


Christ is not waiting to appear to you over in Palestine on the hill called Zion in old Jerusalem. He wants to meet us where ever we are, by His Spirit transforming our lives with His grace, and have us follow Him to the heavenly Zion.

That's what I'm finding with the promoters of error. It's almost as if they key in on problems and then offer their "solution". It's almost as if they go through the commentary, and everywhere there is any statement which states that they aren't sure, or it is unclear, the error promoters jump at offering "the truth". If Adventists have interpreted scripture wrong in places, then they grab hold of it and offer what they say is correct. So the unsuspecting realizes the errors and problems with the church and then become deceived into something much worse and sinister.

Ded- Are these SRod interpretations leading me to the Bible and to Christ, or are they trying to lead me to Houteff?

Counsel advises-

Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment. Yet, when a view of Scripture is presented, many do not ask, Is it true--in harmony with God's word? but, By whom is it advocated? and unless it comes through the very channel that pleases them, they do not accept it.

So thoroughly satisfied are they with their own ideas that they will not examine the Scripture evidence with a desire to learn, but refuse to be interested, merely because of their prejudices.(TM, p.105-106)


Ded-But Satan, in his final attempt to receive worship as if he were God, will attempt to set up a righteous sounding kingdom in Palestine

While it's useless to continue to go round and round with you on Scripture to point out the pre-Mil kingdom, could you provide Inspiration for this idea of Satan's kingdom in Palestine?

Ded- The timing of the special resurrection mentioned in Daniel 12:1
This resurrection takes place during seventh last plague well after probation has closed for the whole world and God steps in to deliver His people.
SRod place it before the LOUD CRY and maintain that the dead are raised to help in this work.

We've done a thorough study on this, no use to help you here, but for others please see our post -- Special Resurrection

Ded-Yes, after reading that I did write on the "counterfeit kingdom" thread, that such a depiction convinces me that SRod followers may well take things in their own hands.

GLL now presents those words as if I said it was definite that they would, but that was not the case.

One must be either blind or , purposely ignorant, or deceitful to think that the post shows 'people" will rise up and do killing. What part of 'angels" do you not understand? You try to continually twist things, which is so clear to those who watch your story line.

So now you are back tracking? Actually for your own soul's sake I would hope so.

Ded-. I asked GLL, what a SRod follower would do if a being, that looked like Houteff, talked like Houteff, and shared experiences unique to Houteff, appeared and told them it was God's will to do the cleansing, just as God had commanded Joshua of old? What would they do?

Sorry, but honestly?? I mean I am chuckling at a) your non-sense hypothetical a) your lack of understanding the Lord's Rod.

But to go along with your idea-- First any "Rod" believer knows the Rod and what it teaches. It does not say that "man" or any human being will EVER do any "cleansing" in future. So if someone would come and pretend to be V.T. Houteff (even if it appears to be some type of resurrection) and say something like "go kill people to clean the church" they'd know it was Satan , not Houteff speaking.

The prophetess explains in Testimonies vol. 7, under the chapter called 'Acceptable Service" how her work is all about "soul saving". She writes "Your work, my work, will not cease with this life. For a little while we may rest in the grave, but when the call comes, we shall, in the kingdom of God, take up the work once more."

Now anyone who knows how to read "context' can clearly see that her work of 'soul saving" shall continue "when the call comes" in "the kingdom". Of course Dedication will spin this, but it's clear as crystal.

Further in Daniel 12:2-3 we read--

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

Brethren, those righteous that are resurrected here, will do something. They "turn many to righteousness." Now, will there be a need to turn souls to righteousness in heaven? Or will there be a need while in probationary time?

The wicked shall include the evil soldiers who mocked and agonized the King.

This is the "Special Resurrection" that serves the Lord's purpose. Check out our post link we showed above.

Not an answer to my question.

If the "channel" is not leading us to Christ and the Bible but is using prophetic writings to draw disciples after himself, then indeed we need to BEWARE!!!!

When we ask "is it true" and find it is not -- then it is imperative we not place that "channel" between us and Biblical truth.


ACTS 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

This is Zechariah 4

But you say Houteff's study tells us we must not go directly to the "trees" HOLY SCRIPTURE to find truth?

Yet we are told:

" False doctrines will sap the foundations of many, because they have not learned to discern truth from error. Our only safeguard against the wiles of Satan is to diligently study the Scriptures; to have an intelligent understanding of the reasons of our faith; Maranatha Chpt. 87

Yes, it does seem to work that way.

I remember reading about Martin Luther, who (along with the other reformers) was linking the papacy with the little horn of Daniel and the harlot of Revelation 17. Yet Luther had some problems with understanding the book of Revelation. Then the counter-reformation Jesuits (like Alcasar and Ribera) who wrote commentaries on Revelation to get the finger pointing away from the papacy, presented themselves (and the Catholic church) as the true defenders of the prophecies.

GLL writes: "First any "Rod" believer knows the Rod and what it teaches. It does not say that "man" or any human being will EVER do any "cleansing" in future."



However, the scriptures, as well as EGW does say there will be an attempted "cleansing" by people-- though for wrong reasons. Also the new age prophets that predict the coming of the "masters" (which will be none other than fallen angels personating people) to supposedly help the world advance to higher spiritual levels, state that all opposers must die.

HOWEVER that attempted "cleansing" will be a "cleansing" in reverse, trying to get rid of the opposition in the supposed earthly restoration of peace, by putting to death Christ's true followers who are opposed to it.

Hopefully your group will stick to your statement -- though there are SRod groups who are not so sure. And you gave a classic formula by which it could be done.

As to "angels" --
Prophecy gives many meanings to the word "angels".
For one -- angels are pictured as giving the three angels messages. What does "angels" mean there?

The "angels" of the seven churches to whom John addresses his letters -- who are the seven angels there?

Lastly, when EGW does give her depiction of the last verses of Ezekiel nine, even though she says "the angel goes forth" she describes the scene as people turning on each other (see GC 656)

I have already given Dedication many many SOP quotes showing that "angels" do God's work of Ezek. 9, what good would it be to give them again??

"When their questions have been fairly answered, they will turn the subject and bring up another point to avoid acknowledging the truth."
(TM. p.108-109)

Ded- As to "angels" --
Prophecy gives many meanings to the word "angels".
For one -- angels are pictured as giving the three angels messages. What does "angels" mean there?

The "angels" of the seven churches to whom John addresses his letters -- who are the seven angels there?

Does it really matter ? If I give you a sensible true answer you'll overlook it and deny it like you have from the beginning since i joined this site. Your prejudices have got you stymied.There are excellent answers but it'll be a waste if you'll not acknowledge them.

"Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment." (Testimonies to Ministers, p.105-106)

Of course it matters.
The obvious answer is that those "angels" refer to PEOPLE.

Which I'm sure you realize.

The issue is this -- in trying to support this "wrong-time frame" for the latter part of Ezek. 9 --

Quotations are used that speak of "cleansing" which obviously refer to people being cleansed FROM their sin, but the quotes are used as if they support the wrong time frame for Ezek 9.

Quotations are used that speak of the "shaking" and "sifting" and "testing" time which will be a terrible ordeal, when the members of the church will be brought to a point of decision where they either have to throw their full weight on God's side, or they (many who are ungrounded and careless) leave the truth and join the popular movements -- but those quotes are used to again support this misplaced Ezekiel prediction instead of what the quotes are really saying.

Quotations where EGW clearly links the latter part of Ez.9 to the general destruction, and in GC 656 describes it as taking place during the seventh plague, are dismissed, or explained away.


The fact that angels are very much involved in everything that happens in the outworking of the Great Controversy does not mean they work independently of people --

Granted you most likely believe what you write,
but I see a lot of problems with some of those beliefs.

So what would this mean:

Notice she omits what I meant by "does it matter?"

Here's the rest--(This was given in response to her asking who the 7 angels were).

"If I give you a sensible true answer you'll overlook it and deny
it like you have from the beginning since i joined this site. Your prejudices have got you stymied.There are excellent answers but it'll be a waste if you'll not acknowledge them."

"Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment." (Testimonies to Ministers, p.105-106)

When the sealing is complete probation closes.

When is the solemn declaration "It is Done" made?
Rev. 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

.

Ded- When the sealing is complete probation closes.

When is the solemn declaration "It is Done" made?

That actually is a appropriate question . Here is the full report--

Two Sealing Reports

The way to find truth is to read the statements of EGW in their original context. Cut and paste methods always carry the danger of taking a lot of statements that are true in themselves, but then weaving them together to come up with something very different from that which is recorded in her writings.

This sort of thing was already happening in EGW's day:

Seriously?? The way to find truth is to read Scripture and ask God to guide you.

True -- do a Bible study on the sealing and when God declares "It is done".

However, the study I was addressing had a host of EGW short quotes pasted together -- If you want to find out what EGW meant in those short quotes -- a person needs to read the context -- not just lift sentences from here and there and paste them together to make it seem like she supports a conclusion that she never taught.

Houteff tries to gain the distinction of a prophet in the Adventist world by quoting a lot of EGW, making it seem like she supports his conclusions which are very different from hers.








But a proof text out of context is a pretext.

Houteff is not a prophet. This is not up for discussion.

I agree that Houteff is not a prophet, but a rather prolific poster on this forum and on this thread, believes Houteff is a great prophet with the final "Elijah" message, and has been quite forceful in demanding we accept this as truth.
(The two sealing report, link at the top of this page is largely a Houteff presentation)

This thread was to counter the study which he presented earlier, in which he claimed Zechaiah 4 predicts Houteff as the grand "pipe" in these last days, bringing oil from the olive trees (scripture) into the bowl of "oil", and he alone was the authorized interpreter of scripture and the interpreter of EGW (who he says is the second pipe) as long as she agrees with Houteff. Thus the "oil" according to this SRod teaching is the writings of Houteff first, and secondarily the writings of EGW.

My study was to show that Zechariah 4 shows the HOLY SPIRIT is the one who turns scripture into the precious oil in the bowl that brings light, and it is only as a person draws from this oil (scripture brought to life giving power by the Holy Spirit) that truth will be found.

Even EGW drew from that "bowl" to share light, she would never agree to the depiction that she filled the bowl of oil, but always as one drawing from the bowl and sharing it's message.

I don't mean to be exacting, but just for clarity. I believe the two trees represent the Law and the Prophets. I believe these two witnesses from Revelation existed from Abraham and Moses and David, etc.

Alchemy

Alchemy- I don't mean to be exacting, but just for clarity. I believe the two trees represent the Law and the Prophets. I believe these two witnesses from Revelation existed from Abraham and Moses and David, etc.

We see from Inspiration what they represent.

Concerning the two witnesses the prophet declares further: "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." "Thy word," said the psalmist, "is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." Revelation 11:4; Psalm 119:105. The two witnesses represent the Scriptures of the Old and the New Testament. Both are important testimonies to the origin and perpetuity of the law of God. Both are witnesses also to the plan of salvation. The types, sacrifices, and prophecies of the Old Testament point forward to a Saviour to come. The Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament tell of a Saviour who has come in the exact manner foretold by type and prophecy. {GC 267.1}


"From the two olive trees, the golden oil was emptied through golden pipes into the bowl of the candlestick and thence into the golden lamps that gave light to the sanctuary. So from the holy ones that stand in God's presence, His Spirit is imparted to human instrumentalities that are consecrated to His service. The mission of the two anointed ones is to communicate light and power to God's people.

It is to receive blessing for us that they stand in God's presence. As the olive trees empty themselves into the golden pipes, so the heavenly messengers seek to communicate all that they receive from God. The whole heavenly treasure awaits our demand and reception; and as we receive the blessing, we in our turn are to impart it. Thus it is that the holy lamps are fed, and the church becomes a light bearer in the world." (Testimonies to Ministers, p.510)



Ah, what beauty and clear explanations of the symbolic prophesy(Zech. 4) Zech. 4 picture The "two pipes" represent Inspired messengers (prophets in the form of human instrumentalities) that "communicate all that they receive from God." In other words, they are the ones who are allowed to rightly and divinely go into the "trees" (The OT and NT) to extract the oil to place it in the Golden Bowl, for our blessings!

Imagine this for a moment, there are millions of pipes going into the trees and extracting oil into the bowl for the candlesticks (churches)! This is exactly what mankind is trying to do today. Thousands upon thousands of "private interpretations" grabbing what they want from OT and NT (trees) and tossing it into the bowl (Spirit of Prophecy-Revelations). God foresaw this and made this prophesy to warn us against this practice.

All humans cannot go directly to the trees and properly understand the prophecies UNLESS they go through the "pipes" which only God directs. The prophets can only be these "heavenly messengers" that can do the authorized extraction, not "all humans". Yes, Inspiration tells us we will gleam "new light" from Scripture, but that light will not be "prophetic" light (ie. what shall come) unless one of God's Inspired messengers has declared it through Inspired writings (Bible, SOP, Elijah message).

Further evidence that unauthorized humans not allowed by God cannot know God's future plans we read--

Amos 3:7-- Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

1 Peter 1:20-21--Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Some perfect examples of the unauthorized interpretations is the Sunday keeper doctrines-- State of the dead, Sunday observance, Commandments no longer in force, etc. Now, do we think Satan stops there?? Now way!

His real fun is when he gets SDA people to engage in their own private interpretations! This is a whole lot more fun for him because the great light imparted to His remnant church is twisted and made to look --almost true!!

ONLY those who stick with His plan as outlined in Zech. 4 will be safe from false interpretations--let us be careful!

"He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them (2 Thes. 2:10)

In other words -- the interpretation given above tells us we must trust in the arms of flesh; in the explanations of men -- we must not seek God's Word on our own. It implies that people cannot go to scripture on our own, they must filter it through a human being.

There is something seriously wrong with that interpretation.

GLL wrote: Satan...his real fun is when he gets SDA people to engage in their own private interpretations! This is a whole lot more fun for him because the great light imparted to His remnant church is twisted and made to look --almost true!!

But if we don't go to scripture ourselves then
the real "fun of Satan" is to get people to look to a false prophet who will use Bible passages to tell people he alone has the authority to interpret scripture, and that any other reading is "private interpretation".

You see -- Sunday, state of the dead, and other "wine of false doctrine" became firmly established in Christianity because a "pontifex maximus" was believed to be divinely ordained by God to be the ultimate interpreter of scripture with the right to "deal with heretics" (those who understood the Bible differently). For 1260 years this "wine" was spoon fed the Christian world, with the military sword ready to make sure they drank it, while scripture was with held from the people.

It was only when men boldly started reading scripture on their own that the reformation broke the iron control and brought a flood of gospel truth to the world. But most protestants are returning to their old master.

There are many so called "prophets" in the world, leading honest people into all manner of falsehoods and hopes for glory in this world, if they only follow them. The end result is destruction. Indeed - Satan will use every kind of deception to mislead those who don't search the scripture for themselves.

Prophets MUST be tested by scripture, not scripture by the prophet. This makes it absolutely essential that every person, with earnest prayer for the guidance of God's Holy spirit, go the Bible for themselves to see if "these things be so,"

Not by might, nor by Power, but by my Spirit, says the Lord of hosts." Zech. 4:6

Ded- In other words -- the interpretation given above tells us we must trust in the arms of flesh

As usual you don't disappoint. Are "prophets" the arm of flesh? You certainly are (arm of flesh) I can tell you that.

Ded- There is something seriously wrong with that interpretation.

The only thing I find "wrong" with your interpretation is what I said. You are good at mis-interpreting.

Ded-The real "fun of Satan" is to get people to look to a false prophet who will use Bible passages to tell people he alone has the authority to interpret scripture, and that any other reading is "private interpretation".

First of all , no one human has been given authority to interpret Scripture exclusively by themselves. This alone shows you are desperate to put down someone.This is really your continual stretch of what the truth is.

Ded-It was only when men boldly started reading scripture on their own that the reformation broke the iron control and brought a flood of gospel truth to the world. But most protestants are returning to their old master.


And now we must ask --are you one of those who "boldly" uses Scripture, or one of those who "private interprets"? To remind you , you are the one who says "men" will do the slaughter of Ezek.9. This, as we showed is completely false and it really amazes the truth seekers, the spirit that guides someone who cannot see the clear truth.

"He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them (2 Thes. 2:10)

Blessings Godsloveandlaw,

I agree with what Sister White says. The Law and Prophets is exactly how Jesus described the whole of the Scriptures. We now have the New Testament and so the Old and New Testaments would be the same as the Law and the Prophets, the whole of the Scriptures.

The thing that is very troubling is how you present things and then pretend you didn't present it that way.

Remember what you posted in your conclusion of Zechariah 4?

It is your conclusion (and Houteff's conclusion) of Zechariah four that I find seriously troubling, and which I was addressing.

Indeed God gave us the scriptures through His prophets --
that is not the issue.

But you are saying only two people IN OUR PRESENT DAY are authorized to go directly to these scriptures to find truth.
And of those two (authorized) only one has the final say as to what the other wrote, (you have made that perfectly clear whenever EGW statements that conflict with Houteff's interpretations are presented) making that one so called prophet (Houteff) the sole authority of interpretation of scripture.




From his previous posts it is no secret who you, GLL, believes the second and most enlightened prophet of 1939 is! Houteff

And notice the emphasis on THE ONLY ONES since 1844 who are allowed to extract "oil" from the two trees (OT and NT)







But if we don't go to scripture ourselves then
the real "fun of Satan" is to get people to look to a false prophet who will use Bible passages to tell people he alone has the authority to interpret scripture, and that any other reading is "private interpretation".

And that is what is happening here, in this interpretation of Zechariah four.

Remember where Houteff was leading -- his interpretations lead to a totally different destination from EGW's visions

In Houteff's interpretation all Adventists who reject Houteff's message must die
after they are all dead, God will give the "survivors" (those who accepted Houteff's message) the land of Palestine (earthly Zion)where they will "cast out the horns of the Gentiles who now rule the land" and while Christ is the invisible king, (See 8 Tract 46-47) an anti-typical human David will reign as God's visible king (some SRod believe it will be Christ in human form as both the visible and invisible)and all the nations, will flock to them (including most of Babylon) and they will gather them (all totally sinless now into this earthly kingdom run by the "purified church") where paradise conditions will exist, (see 8 Tract p.64) all before Christ's visible return in the clouds.

Now the question is -- where did such an interpretation come from?

Ded- But you are saying only two people IN OUR PRESENT DAY are authorized to go directly to these scriptures to find truth.
And of those two (authorized) only one has the final say as to what the other wrote, (you have made that perfectly clear whenever EGW statements that conflict with Houteff's interpretations are presented) making that one so called prophet (Houteff) the sole authority of interpretation of scripture.

Let me clarify for you. First, the Scriptures say that He will send "Elijah" before the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Obviously you do not believe that or maybe you think , as many SDA do, that EGW was this Elijah.

Those who have searched, and believe me this truth is growing (particularly in the poor countries), have found that only one man in our church history has fit all the clues of Inspiration. EGW said a "he" , male, "would come", future tense, would be thought to "misinterpret the Scriptures", would be mostly rejected, "You are too earnest", would be zealous for the Lord's warning message and end time instruction of reform. (TM, p.475)

Victor Houteff did claim that his message was to prepare the SDA people for the "great and dreadful day of the Lord". He also interpreted many long held confusing Scriptures, such as Zech. 4. As Zech. 4 is a lesson for us today, not for those of yesterday, it stands to reason that VTH along with EGW would be the two pipes authorized to go into the trees (OT and NT). Then bring out the interpretation (prophetic) for us to understand.

But as you are one of those who has declared before God's angels that God did not send VTH, you must wait and see what the Truth is. in others words, as the ol saying goes , "you have made your bed, now you must lay in it."

The lesson of Korah comes to mind.

Ded-In Houteff's interpretation all Adventists who reject Houteff's message must die

That is the difference, you believe it is was just "Houteff's" message, we believe it was from the Lord.

Ded- Now the question is -- where did such an interpretation come from?

From the SCRIPTURES, not from Houteff, they teach that the "escaped " of Israel will return to Israel.

Now I have addressed your points and questions can you do the same?

1) Do you still believe that "men" (ie. humans)will do the destroying of Ezek? If so give your references again.

2) Do you still believe that VTH taught that the DSDA will someday soo rise up and do the slaying depicted by Ezek. 9?

2) Why have you not commented on Isaiah 66:15-21 as to it's meaning. We have posted this important prophetic Scripture many times , and it was interpreted by VTH. Can we see your own private interpretation of it?

"There is to be in the churches a wonderful manifestation of the power of God, but it will not move upon those who have not humbled themselves before the Lord, and opened the door of their heart by confession and repentance. In the manifestation of that power which lightens the earth with the glory of God, they will see only something which in their blindness they think dangerous, something which will arouse their fears, and they will brace themselves to resist it.

Because the Lord does not work according to their expectations and ideal, they will oppose the work. "Why," they say, "should we not know the Spirit of God, when we have been in the work so many years?" Because they did not respond to the warnings, the entreaties, of the messages of God, but persistently said, "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing."(Maranatha, p.220)

First concerning EGW's quote found in TM 475, and RH Feb. 18,1890, yes she was referring to herself as well as to the message of righteousness by faith that during the years 1888-1893 was being presented to the people.

This was the message that was (and is) to prepare the hearts and minds of the people for the latter rain.

Yet it was being opposed and EGW's gift itself was being questioned because she was supporting this message as the message to prepare people for the latter rain experience.
In this statement she was letting them know that she would share what God had revealed, not what they wanted her to say.



She also makes it clear, it is God's people who are to give the "Elijah" message -- the message of righteousness by faith as combined in the three angels' massages.



GLL wrote: He (Houteff) also interpreted many long held confusing Scriptures, such as Zech. 4.


Comment -- a lot of people have interpreted these passages, the question isn't "did he give an interpretation" but "is it a correct interpretation"?

GLL wrote: But as you are one of those who has declared before God's angels that God did not send VTH, you must wait and see what the Truth is.

"God wants us to depend upon him, and not upon man....are you to go to man to find out his opinion, and then shape your conclusions from his?--No, go to God. Tell him what you want; take your Bible and search as for hidden treasures; go to the Bible, comparing it with the law and the testimony, and if it does not bear this test, it is not true."

GLL wrote: you believe it is was just "Houteff's" message, we believe it was from the Lord.

You are free to believe as your conscience leads. However, there is no way I can reconcile Houteff's teachings to NT interpretations of the OT prophecies, or to EGW's interpretations of prophetic last day events.

I asked earlier concerning the whole pre-second coming kingdom interpretation -- Now the question is -- where did such an interpretation come from?

GLL wrote: From the SCRIPTURES,

Every doctrine floating around presents itself as coming from scripture.

In fact even New Age channelers will base their ideas on scripture --

"The prime work of the church is to teach, and teach ceaselessly, preserving the outer appearance in order to reach the many who are accustomed to church usages. Teachers must be trained; Bible knowledge must be spread..."
And who is the author of that quote? Alice Bailey a new age priestess (Externalization)

So you see it's not enough to simply follow someone's selection of Bible verses -- WE MUST STUDY FOR OURSELVES and earnestly seek the Holy Spirit to shield us from deception and lead us to truth.




GLL asks:
1) Do you still believe that "men" (ie. humans)will do the destroying of Ezek? If so give your references again.

Ezekiel 9 has an historic and a future fulfilment.

I believe Ezekiel 9 related first of all to the literal fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonian Armies.

It is not consistent to say the verses dealing with Jerusalem's destruction mean (SDA'S are going to be destroyed) while saying Jerusalem's restoration means the literal old Jerusalem kingdom will be restored.

Both the destruction and restoration referred to the literal city being destroyed and the literal city being restored prior to Christ's FIRST coming.

Yes, there is a future fulfilment of these prophecies.

Great Controversy 656 tells us during the last plague when God reveals Himself, the lost will turn on their false leaders and there will be a terrible slaughter. She then writes:


There is no second chance for ANYONE after that. No, restoring of old Jerusalem, no converting of the nation.


Just like the future fulfilment of the destruction of sinners in Zion is not about literal old Jerusalem, so the restoration is not about literal old Jerusalem.

The fulfilment of the restoration -- the crowning work of salvation begins at Christ's second coming, when He takes His redeemed to His Father's House in the New Jerusalem.

The final, complete restoration is the New Earth after the 1000 years when all things are made new.

2) Do you still believe that VTH taught that the DSDA will someday soo rise up and do the slaying depicted by Ezek. 9?

The possibility exists that some will take things in their own hands and make an attempt. After all -- SRod interpretations hang their hope of the conversion of much of the world, and a paradise like earthly kingdom, on the prerequisite of the destruction of Adventists.
With such a philosophy how eager are they to get on with their earthly kingdom?
For them Adventists are the blockade stopping God's earthly kingdom from happening.

Now, we are told the time is coming when those who refuse to accept the ecumenical solutions are to be killed (Rev. 13)
When government restrictions are lifted, what is there to stop a group who sincerely believe God's work can't begin until the Adventists are dead?

2) Why have you not commented on Isaiah 66:15-21 as to it's meaning. have posted this important prophetic Scripture many times , and it was interpreted by VTH. Can we see your own private interpretation of it?

Who is WE ?
I have given thorough explanations on many passages which you presented. And they aren't just my own private interpretations either, just because they don't agree with Houteff. I don't even remember any reference to Isaiah 66 -- but then haven't had time to read everything you post.

But I'll take a look at it.

Excellent response Dedication!

We need to be mindful that DSDA's are simply followers of a false prophet in Victor Houteff. Their interpretation of Daniel 2, Ezekiel 9 and more are completely unBiblical.

We need to preach Christ to them. We need to preach the Holy Spirit to them. Because until their converted, there isn't anything we can say to reach them.

Ded- First concerning EGW's quote found in TM 475, and RH Feb. 18,1890, yes she was referring to herself as well as to the message of righteousness by faith that during the years 1888-1893 was being presented to the people.

When people as yourself say this, what they are doing is saying that she is claiming to be the "Elijah" spoken of in Mal. 4:5. No doubt you are repeating what the SDA leaders added as a asterisk to her quote in 1962. We did a post explaining their reason for this "addition" to her original statement (left alone for 72 years). "Why Elijah"

Ded-She also makes it clear, it is God's people who are to give the "Elijah" message -- the message of righteousness by faith as combined in the three angels' massages.

UMM, let's see EGW "makes it clear"? Ok then the "he" she said "to come" is meant to be "we" (as in many people) Why not clarify that? She herself said we are to take the Bible as it reads. You see, this is EXACTLY what Satan does!

When God told Adam and Eve you shall surely die if you eat of the tree, Satan says 'you shall NOT surely die." So one word is thrown off to deceive. But I know this will not uncover you and your others blindness who cannot see this.


***** STAFF EDIT *****

Ded-Who is WE ?
I have given thorough explanations on many passages which you presented. And they aren't just my own private interpretations either, just because they don't agree with Houteff. I don't even remember any reference to Isaiah 66 -- but then haven't had time to read everything you post.

But I'll take a look at it.


Sometimes I refer to "we" as the Spirit of Truth (ie. Holy Spirit) and myself. As the Lord leads.

Yes, try your *** STAFF EDIT *** interpretations on it. Look forward to seeing it.

First -- what is the Elijah message?
It is the three angels' messages which include righteousness by faith in verity.

EGW does not claim to be THE Elijah, but she is definitely a very important part, through whom God worked to bring the message before the world.

She wrote that statement in 1890 when God was revealing to the church the importance of Christ and His righteousness as an integral part of the three angels' message.
By defending the message and the men bringing it, several leaders were thinking EGW (as well as the men bringing the message) were contradicting their understanding of the rigorous defense of God's law.

However, it was made plain that without an understanding of Christ and His righteousness and a vital connection with HIM, the law could not save anyone.


Why are you focused on a man, instead of the last warning message that is to go to the world?

EGW did clarify that Elijah message would be given by people.



Of course when she quoted the verse in Malachi 4, she used the words written there.
But then she clarifies that "he" was a representative of THOSE who are to prepare a people for our lord's second coming.

Now what does it mean to take the bible as it reads?
It means seeking the true meaning and following it. And that means interpretation is part of it.

You, yourself do not take the Bible literally as it reads in many instances -- you interpret it.
Ez 9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand.

Do you read six literal men?

The three angels' messages of Revelation 14, are each described as an angel crying with a loud voice --
Do you insist we understand this as three literal angels?
Or are they representing people proclaiming these messages?

In Revelation two and three John the apostle is told to write letters to the angels of the churches.
2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write
2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write
2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write
etc

Are we to read that John wrote these letters to seven different angels? and each letter was addressing an angel? Or are these messages to a whole group of people?


In like manner when the "spirit of Elijah" is spoken of as "he" it can represent a group of people giving a message.

As to Ez. 9 -- I gave a direct answer.
You want me to answer in the context of your understanding -- which I cannot do, because your understanding is not in harmony with what I have found.

The actual fulfilment of Ez. 9 takes place during the seventh plague just as it is described in GC 656 -- the "sinners in Zion" who mislead the people will fall "in the general destruction" at that time.
During the time of trouble many will renounce their commitment and faith in Christ and obedience to Him, and will be put all their power into seeing their former brethren destroyed. They will be very much alive. (See 5T p.463)

Ded- Why are you focused on a man, instead of the last warning message that is to go to the world?

Again, you are not comprehending the obvious. When she said "he" "is to come" you must, and I say must ignore that plain statement from SOP. Just like the legions of other SDA do. We as DSDA do not.

Additionally we understand the Lord does not throw curve balls or deceit by promising a MALE prophet--"Elijah" to come before the Great and Dreadful day of the Lord. You must accept that 1) the Lord was not to bring a male prophet, rather many people.2) For some the idea that Elijah means a woman--EGW. How absurd to mock God's plain statement!

SOP counsels to "take the Bible as it reads". As mentioned this is what Satan does. He get people *** STAFF EDIT *** to say "oh skip over that little word "he", it means not what it says."

Quote- "..he was a representative of those who are to prepare a people for our Lord's second coming."DA 101

Ofcourse after the "one" to sound off the message of Elijah came, there are those of us to carry forward the work-- representatives.

Ded- But then she clarifies that "he" was a representative of THOSE who are to prepare a people for our lord's second coming.


Yes and this "he" is John the baptist not the Elijah of Mal. 4:5. John did not come "before the great and dreadful day of the Lord". The Scripture shows clearly a male prophet--Elijah is to come. But you are once again trying the fit scripture to SOP. We must always do the opposite. if we can't , then we must admit there is not enough light to explain the Scripture, rather than force the Bible to fit your agenda.

Ded-Ez 9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand.

Do you read six literal men?

If you would study Scripture more closely you would see that "men" are sometimes described as angels.

Daniel shows this very well.

"..while I was speaking in prayer, the man, Gabriel, whom I has seen in the vision at the beginning ..."(Dan.9:21)

Further, As it is well know that Ezekiel 9 constitutes a purification, in which the Lord is to do a "sifting", Scripture and SOP confirms who is to do this sifting (ie. slaughter weapons to destroy)

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matt.13:41-42)

"The time of the harvest will fully determine the character of the two classes specified under the figure of the tares and the wheat. The work of separation is given to the angels of God, and not committed into the hands of any man." (TM. p.47-48)

You still have not shown any reference to back up your mistaken belief that human men will do the slaughter of Ezek.9 , if you have changed your mind in this, let us know--no harm no foul, only Praise for honesty.

Also, still waiting for your *** STAFF EDIT *** interpretation of Isaiah 66:15-20. Some may ask--"why is that Scripture important?" Because the Elijah prophet used it extensively to confirm his message from the Lord showing the upcoming church purification.

"I have been shown that the greatest reason why the people of God are now found in this state of spiritual blindness is that they will not receive correction. Many have despised the reproofs and warnings given them." (Testimonies, vol. 3, p.255)

ADMIN HAT ON!!!!!

Please refrain from unkind and disrespectful comments. If it continues, this thread will be permanently closed and other action will be taken.

ADMIN HAT OFF!!!!!

hello brother Daryl,

For clarification, could you please explain why asking for a private interpretation is disrespectful? Her interpretation (also mine) are indeed private, lest we claim we are prophets, right? This is truthful not dis-respectful. If someone asked for my interpretation and labeled it private, of course I could not dis-agree because it would indeed be.

I will be more attentive to responding to her and thanks for the heads up. Her feelings are most likely hurt, and for that I apologize.

The message of the hour is the "straight testimony" and as such sometimes we must speak straight. And sometimes SOP counsel comes into play.

"By some there is shunning of the living testimony. Cutting truths must not be shunned. It needs something besides theory to reach hearts now. It needs the stirring testimony to alarm and arouse; that will stir the enemy's subjects, and then honest souls will be led to decide for the truth. There has been and still is with some a disposition to have everything move on very smoothly. They see no necessity of straight testimony." 2SG 283

"Let the truth cut. I have been shown that why ministers have not more success is, they are afraid of hurting feelings, fearful of not being courteous, and they lower the standard of truth, and conceal if possible the peculiarity of our faith. I saw that God could not make such successful. The truth must be made pointed, and the necessity of a decision urged. And as false shepherds are crying, Peace, and are preaching smooth things, the servants of God must cry aloud, and spare not, and leave the result with God." 2SG 284

GLL wrote: "For clarification, could you please explain why asking for a private interpretation is disrespectful?"

Answer:

According to your posts on this thread, you don't believe anyone has the right and responsibility to go directly to the scriptures and seek truth for themselves -- to be like the Bereans who searched the scripture for themselves.

It doesn't matter how much Bible or even EGW I share, if it doesn't agree with Houteff you denounce it as "private interpretation" and in your view the term "private interpretation" is evil. (several of your posts on this thread deal with your concept of "private interpretation")


Yet, there is no way I think of Houteff's writings as living testimony, they ARE NOT LIVING TESTIMONY, they are private interpretations of a man who has skilfully combined Adventist truths with false prophet temporal kingdom theology and several other strange doctrines that he gleaned from other sources. (Not from visions) His interpretations are not unique to him, only that he skilfully laced them with EGW quotes, adapting them to Adventist theology somewhat, to make them SEEM right. Yet anyone who has actually studied EGW in context knows Houteff's interpretations are in opposition to her last day message.

You think the counterfeit kingdom in Palestine is just "private interpretation" to be thrown in the trash can, but I am fully convinced IT IS A REAL COUNTERFEIT that will deceive millions.

Houteff's interpretations of prophecies are destined to lead people into a dead end of deception -- into the counterfeit kingdom.



Indeed,the quote you posted of a false shepherd crying Peace, describes Houteff's illusion of an earthly pre-advent literal kingdom of peace and safety. There's the implication of just accept Houteff as a prophet, and you will supposedly have earthly peace in a literal kingdom over in Palestine, which supposedly will be extended to much of the rest of the world through Houteff's followers. According to Houteff, there will be no "test" for Sabbath keepers to face -- Adventists who don't accept Houteff will supposedly all be dead, and Houteff's followers will be safely in the kingdom when the Sunday laws arise.

However, the real "straight testimony" message should be to seek the Lord with all our heart, and live for Him, for the time of testing and trial is about to come and multitudes will fail that test, and be swept into that great delusion. Yes, it's about eternal life, it's about making our anchor sure in Christ, fully committing our lives to Him, so we cannot be moved when the storms of opposition rage. It's about sharing the three angel's message with the life changing righteousness in Christ message, with others now so they too will be able to stand - it's NOT ABOUT A PEACEFUL pre-second coming kingdom. That is a delusion.

Our crowning hope is Christ's second coming in the clouds of glory to take us to His Father's house. (see John 14:1-3)

----

As to the "he = male" argument. If every promise or passage statement in scripture and EGW when the word "he" or "man" is used can only refer to a male, then indeed there are a lot of "curve balls" against women in scripture.

Just one example, there are hundreds like it:


No matter the masculine language, that passage is equally applicable for every woman who seeks and loves the Lord and stands against temptation in His power.

First of all Dedication, I asked bro. Daryl not you.But seeing how you attempt to answer it I will respond.

Ded- According to your posts on this thread, you don't believe anyone has the right and responsibility to go directly to the scriptures and seek truth for themselves -- to be like the Bereans who searched the scripture for themselves.

It doesn't matter how much Bible or even EGW I share, if it doesn't agree with Houteff you denounce it as "private interpretation" and in your view the term "private interpretation" is evil. (several of your posts on this thread deal with your concept of "private interpretation")

Let us see what I said instead of what Dedication said that I said (a typical twisting)--

"all humans" cannot go directly to the tress and properly understand the prophecies UNLESS they go through the "pipes" which only God directs. The prophets can only be these "heavenly messengers" that can do the extraction, not "all humans".

Please pay close attention here. Notice I said "prophecies" not the "word of God". Prophecies mean that which "shall be" in other words what the future holds. This can include a past prophetic event, such as the fulfillment of the 2300 days, the Woman fleeing into the wilderness, etc.

It DOES NOT include light gleamed from the Scriptures. For SOP clearly explains --

Many Gems Yet to Be Discovered.--New light will ever be revealed on the word of God to him who is in living connection with the Sun of Righteousness. Let no one come to the conclusion that there is no more truth to be revealed. The diligent, prayerful seeker for truth will find precious rays of light yet to shine forth from the word of God. Many gems are yet scattered that are to be gathered together to become the property of the remnant people of God.-- Counsels on Sabbath School Work, p. 34. (1892.)

It is ludicrous to say I discourage anyone from studying Scripture and telling of the light they gleam. Shows your desperation Dedication, grasping at straws to make me say what I did not.

Ded- Yet anyone who has actually studied EGW in context knows Houteff's interpretations are in opposition to her last day message.

You continue,as is your habit , to make vague blanked statements. As we have shown each of your accusations have been addressed. I challenge you to bring up any and all "opposite" ideas and let's investigate. Time and again your "own ideas"(private interpretations) have fallen short of Scripture (such as Isaiah 11, Isaiah 2, Rev. 12, etc. ) and not Houteff (Who stands by Scripture first and foremost BEFORE SOP unlike you).

Ded- As to the "he = male" argument. If every promise or passage statement in scripture and EGW when the word "he" or "man" is used can only refer to a male, then indeed there are a lot of "curve balls" against women in scripture.

First of all, the argument is pertaining to SOP, in the saying of "he" not in the Scriptures. I challenge you to search EGW, as you claim you have studied it well, to show any example where she talks of a singular specific male person as "she" or "they". Show us from SOP.

Ellen White practiced her own counsel (GC. p.598-599).

Yes, Scripture uses the male verbiage, however it is pertaining to the general statements not a specific person. The Bible NEVER addresses as specific female person as "he". Search and see.

Furthermore, show us in Scripture where God called a female by a male name. We did a post on this for those interested. "Little Words are Important"

"Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and dreadful day of the Lord."(Mal. 4:5) A singular male prophet, the last one .