Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message

Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 09/16/17 07:15 AM

"The Third Angel's Message. Its Basis in the Seven Trumpets" Advent Review and Sabbath Herald July, 31, 1900, p. 488.

WE are now going to study the place of the great nations of the earth, in their relation to the Third Angel's Message, considered from the basis of the line of prophecy of the Seven Trumpets in Revelation.

The first thing we need to do, therefore, is to discover that the Third Angel's Message really has a basis in the Seven Trumpets. This will be easy; for it is made perfectly plain in the Scriptures.

Let us begin with the Third Angel's Message,—Rev. 14:2,—and work backwards to its direct connections.

The first words introducing the Third Angel's Message are: "And the third angel followed them." This shows that some angels have gone before, whom the third angel "followed."

Go back a verse: "And there followed another angel." This shows that this angel was also preceded by an angel, which, when this one followed, makes it "another."

Now go back now to the sixth verse: "And I saw another angel." This also certifies that an angel has gone before this angel as well, which causes this one, as he flies in the midst of heaven, to be "another."


But what angel preceded the angel of Rev. 14:6? Following back in the book of Revelation, we find no angel, except the seventh trumpet angel in Revelation eleven. Then we come to the first verse of chapter ten; and there we read: "And I saw another mighty angel."

This expression, once again, certifies that, before this, there is an angel, which, when this one comes forth, causes him to be spoken of as "another."

Following further back, we find no angels, except the sixth and the fifth trumpet angels, until we reach the last verses of chapter eight; and there we reach the primal, and read: "And I beheld, and heard an angel"—not "another angel," but, primarily, "an angel."


Thus, beginning with Rev. 8:13, there is a series of angels connected by the word "another," straight through to the third angel with his message. Thus:—

Primal angel-
Rev. 8:13 "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe

"And I saw another mighty angel." Rev. 10:1.

"And I saw another angel." Rev. 14:6.

"And there followed another angel." Verse 8.

"And the third angel followed them." Verse 9.

But now notice: That angel in Rev. 8:13, the first in this series that connects straight through to the third angel,—this angel comes in right in the midst of the series of the Seven Trumpets.

The first four trumpets sound in Rev. 8:7-12. Immediately following the fourth trumpet, between that and the fifth trumpet angel, the first one in this other series of angels that connects straight through to the Third Angel's Message gives his message.


And this angel of Rev. 8:13 not only comes in in the midst of the seven trumpet angels, but his word relates directly to the remaining three of the seven trumpet angels. As we read in the whole verse:
"And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

These three woes belong with the last three trumpets, one with each. This is certain by the fact that, when the fifth angel's work is ended, it is written: "One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter." Rev. 9:12. And when the sixth trumpet is ended, "the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded." Rev. 11:15.

1st Trumpet—8:1
2nd Trumpet—8:8
3rd Trumpet—8:10
4th Trumpet—8:12

"An Angel"—Woe, Woe, Woe. 8:13
5th Trumpet—9:1-11. First woe.
6th Trumpet—9:11 to 11:13. Second woe.
"Another mighty angel." 10:1.
7th Trumpet—11:13-19. Third woe.
"Another angel." 14:6.
"There followed another." 14:8.
"The third angel followed them." 14:2
.

Thus, it is plain that the three woes pronounced by the primal angel, who comes in in the midst of the Seven Trumpets, are expressive of the character of the last three of the Seven Trumpets. Then, just at the end of the sixth trumpet, and before the sounding of the seventh, we find the words:

"And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven," etc. And this angel gives his message before the seventh trumpet sounds, because he speaks directly of the seventh trumpet as yet future, in the words:
"In the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound," etc. Rev. 10:7.

Then, when the seventh angel does sound, it is written: "And the seventh angel sounded. . . . And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great." Rev. 11:15-18.

Thus, under the sounding of the seventh trumpet angel, there comes "the time of the dead, that they should be judged;" and along with this comes that "other angel," in Rev. 14:6, 7, "having the everlasting gospel to preach, . . . saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment IS come." Rev. 14:6, 7.

"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen." "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God." Rev. 14:9, 10.

And of the events that occur under the sounding of the seventh angel, one is, "Thy wrath is come."

Further: the Third Angel's Message is followed immediately by the coming of the Lord; for it is written: "I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle." Rev. 14:14.

It is at the coming of the Lord that the saints of God are rewarded. For he says: "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Rev. 22:12. And one of the events that occur under the sounding of the seventh trumpet is "that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great."

Thus, by every consideration of the word of God on the subject of the Third Angel's Message and the Seven Trumpets, it is certain that the Seven Trumpets are a basis of the Third Angel's Message.

ATJ
Posted By: dedication

Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 09/16/17 11:59 PM

There has been much talk of "reconsidering" the seven trumpets.

Yet, the historicist interpretation has been an anchor pillar for the three angel's messages, and I think those seriously studying the subject should at least be knowledgeable concerning this understanding.

These are articles written by A.T.Jones in 1900.

Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 09/17/17 12:35 AM

"The Third Angel's Message. Its Basis in the Seven Trumpets"
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, Aug. 7, 1900 p. 504.


IN last week's study we found that the Third Angel's Message certainly has a basis in the line of prophecy of the Seven Trumpets; that the Third Angel's Message is held in view from the very first of the Seven Trumpets until the last one; and that, therefore, in studying the Seven Trumpets, from beginning to end, we are simply studying the Third Angel's Message, from its foundation unto its end.

But the Seven Trumpets themselves have a basis. The line of prophecy of the Seven Trumpets is a consequence of events.
The events foretold therein occur because of certain things that have been done, and these certain things are shown in the first three steps in each of the two preceding lines of prophecy in the book of Revelation—the Seven Churches and the Seven Seals.
Therefore, to find the basis of the Seven Trumpets, we must glance at these things, which are their cause.

FIRST THREE OF THE SEVEN CHURCHES
The line of prophecy of the Seven Churches is composed of seven letters addressed by the Lord to his church in the seven phases of her experience, from the first advent of Christ unto his second. In each of these seven letters, not only is counsel given in the way of right, but there are pointed out the dangers and evils that beset the church, against which she must be especially guarded, and which, in order to remain pure, she must escape.

To the church in her first stage—"the church of Ephesus"—he says: "I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works." Rev. 2:4, 5.
This points definitely to the beginning of the "falling away" that is mentioned by Paul to the elders of the church at Ephesus (Acts 20:30), and that is dwelt upon especially in 2 Thessalonians 2; which falling away eventually developed "that man of sin," "the son of perdition," "who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." 2 Thess. 2:3, 4.

The letter to the church in her second phase is wholly commendatory. This shows that, while individuals had continued in the apostasy mentioned in the first letter, yet the church herself had heeded the counsel given by the Head of the church, and had repented, and returned to "the first works." The time of this phase of the church's experience is definitely suggested in the word that she should "have tribulation ten days." Rev. 2:10. This refers to the ten years of persecution in the reign of Diocletian, from A.D. 302-312; which was ended by the Edict of Milan, issued by the two emperors Constantine and Licinius, March, A.D. 312.

Then comes the third phase of the church, in which the counsel from Christ mentions with commendation the fact that she had held fast his name, and had not denied his faith, "even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr." Rev. 2:13. This word "Antipas" is not a person's name, but is a term characteristic of the times. It is composed of two Greek words,—anti anti, and papas pappas. anti anti signifies against, and pappas pappas, which is our English, and also the universal, word for "papa." The word "papa" is simply the repetition of the original root word "pa." And this word "papa" is the original word "pope."

Therefore this word "Antipas"—"against 'pas,' or 'papas,'"—shows the growth of the papa-cy in the period immediately following A. D. 312. This was the period of Constantine, and onward, in which the papa-cy itself was distinctly made, and began openly to assert its authority. And in that time the history records that while the other principal bishops of the church bore the title of "patriarch," "the bishops of Rome studiously avoided the title of 'patriarch,' as placing him on a level with other 'patriarchs.' He always preferred the title of 'papa,' or 'pope' (Schaff); and this, because 'patriarch' bespeaks an oligarchical church government, that is, government by a few; whereas 'pope' bespeaks a monarchical church government, that is, government by one."—"Two Republics," page 485. Thus the history and the word of the counsel of Christ unite in marking, as the characteristic of that phase of the church, the formation of the papacy, and the assertion of the authority of the pope.


This definitely brings us to the time of the making of the papacy; and corresponds exactly, in point of time, to the facts of history following the Edict of Milan, which put an end to the "tribulation" mentioned in the previous letter to the church.

Thus the "falling away," the leaving of the "first love," mentioned in the first letter, had, in this time of the third letter, culminated in the papacy.

FIRST THREE OF THE SEVEN SEALS
Now this same course is marked in the first three steps of the line of prophecy of the Seven Seals. There, under the first seal, was seen going forth a white horse (Rev. 6:2), corresponding to the church in her first phase, in her purity.
But the counsel of Christ in his first letter said that there was a falling away from her first love; and this is signified in the second seal, under which "there went out another horse that was red."
And under the third seal "I beheld, and lo a black horse." Rev. 6:5. Thus the symbols in the seals, passing from white to black, mark the course of the apostasy from the first love, in which Christ was all in all, in the first stage, to the third stage, in which, "where Satan's seat" was, and where Satan dwelt, a man was put in the place of God, in the temple, the church, of God (Eph. 2:21), showing himself that he is God. Verses 20-22.

Now, the effect of this apostasy, which developed the papacy within the Roman Empire, resulted in the complete ruin of the Roman Empire. And this consequence of the apostasy marked in these first three steps in the two lines of prophecy of the seven churches and the seven seals, is marked in the line of prophecy of the Seven Trumpets. The trumpet is herein used as a symbol, because the trumpet is the symbol of war; and it was by the war of the floods of barbarians from the north that there was swept away that mass of corruption that was heaped upon the Roman Empire by its union with the apostate church in the making of the papacy.

(Continued in next post)
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 09/17/17 12:54 AM

Thus the Third Angel's Message has a basis in the Seven Trumpets.
The Seven Trumpets have their basis in the apostasy noted in the first and third of the Seven Churches and the first three of the Seven Seals.
And thus, through the Seven Trumpets, the Third Angel's Message finds its basis in the apostasy noted in the first and third of the Seven Churches and the first three of the Seven Seals.

This apostasy made the Beast;
and the Third Angel's Message rises in the time of the making of the Image of the Beast, and utters its warning against the worship of the Beast and his Image.

The Image of the Beast finds his original in the Beast.

The result, to the Roman Empire, of the making of the Beast in the Roman Empire and by the Roman Empire, was the utter ruin of that empire.
This ruin was accomplished by the mighty armies of the peoples of the north marching forth under the first four of the Seven Trumpets.
The result, to the world, of setting up the Image of the Beast, and the worship of the Beast and his Image, in the world and by the world, will be the utter ruin of the world, by the mighty armies of another people marching forth under the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet, accompanied by the mighty notes of "the last trump."


And concerning this, it is written: "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand; a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: and the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?" Joel 2:1-11.
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." {August 7, 1900 ATJ, ARSH 504.17}

Next week we shall study more.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 09/18/17 01:49 AM

"The Third Angel's Message. Its Basis in the Seven Trumpets" Advent Review and Sabbath Herald August 14, 1900, p. 520.

THE trumpet is the symbol of war; as it is written: "Thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war." Jer. 4:19, "For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?" 1 Cor. 14:8. "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain." Joel 2:1.


We have found that the Seven Trumpets prophesy the consequences of the making of the Beast, which grew out of the great apostasy from Christianity.

The Beast was made in the Roman Empire by the union of the apostate church with that republic which had degenerated into an imperial despotism; and the result to the Roman Empire, of the making of the Beast, was the utter ruin of that empire.

This ruin was accomplished by the mighty armies of the peoples of the north, which, in a succession of mighty tides, overflowed the western empire of Rome, in the time covered by the first four of the Seven Trumpets.


"Coming last among what are called the great monarchies of prophecy, it was the only one which realized in perfection the idea of a monarchia, being strictly coincident with the civilized world. Civilization and this empire were commensurate; they were interchangeable ideas and coextensive."

And when that empire perished, to those unenlightened by the word of God it really seemed, in the violence of the times, that the world was at its end. No man can imagine the terror of the times. Of the fall of that empire it has been said that—
...Never had the existence of a nation been more completely overthrown;
...never had individuals had more evils to endure and more dangers to apprehend.
...Whence came it that the population were dumb and dead? How is it that so many
...sacked towns, so many ruined positions, so many blasted careers, so many ejected
... proprietors, have left so few traces. I do not say of their active existence,
...but only of their sufferings?—Guizot.

Although it was not the end of the world, yet, like the fall of Babylon of old, the fall of Rome is full of lessons that indicate exactly the things that will be at the end of the world. For that, with all its terrors, was the consequence of the evils heaped upon society by the making and the working of the Beast. And when the world shall really end, that, with the terrors that accompany it, will be but the consequence of the evil that is heaped upon the society of the world at this time, by the making and the working of the Image of the Beast.

And as the Beast itself is the standard of comparison in all things respecting the making and the working of the Image of the Beast, so the state of society and the affairs of the empire and nations of that time of the Beast are a faithful standard of comparison by which to read correctly the course and condition of the nations in these times of the Image of the Beast.

A brief sketch of the condition of society at that time will therefore be of double value just here. The same corruptions that had characterized the former (pagan) Rome were reproduced in the Rome of the fifth century.

...The primitive rigor of discipline and manners was utterly neglected and forgotten
... by the ecclesiastics of Rome. The most exorbitant luxury, with all the vices attending it,
...was introduced among them, and the most scandalous and unchristian arts of acquiring
... wealth universally practiced. They seemed to have rivaled in riotous living the greatest
...epicures of pagan Rome when luxury was there at the highest pitch. For Jerome, who was an
...eye-witness of what he writ, reproaches the Roman clergy with the same excesses which the
...poet Juvenal so severely censured in the Roman nobility under the reign of Domitian.—Bower.

...Everything was determined by auguries and auspices; the wild orgies of the Bacchanalians,
...with all their obscene songs and revelry, were not wanting.—Merivale.

...And now the criminal and frivolous pleasures of a decrepit civilization left no thought for
...the absorbing duties of the day nor the fearful trials of the morrow. Unbridled lust and
...unblushing indecency admitted no sanctity in the marriage tie. The rich and powerful
...established harems, in the recesses of which their wives lingered, forgotten, neglected,
...and despised. The banquet, theater, and the circus exhausted what little strength
...and energy were left by domestic excesses. The poor aped the vices of the rich, and
...hideous depravity reigned supreme, and invited the vengeance of heaven.—Lea.

The pagan superstitions, the pagan delusions, and the pagan vices, which had been brought into the church by the apostasy, and clothed with a form of godliness, had wrought such corruption that the society of which it was a part could no longer exist. From it no more good could possibly come, and it must be swept away.

...The uncontrollable progress of avarice, prodigality, voluptuousness, theater-going,
...intemperance, lewdness; in short, of all the heathen vices, which Christianity had come to
...eradicate, still carried the Roman Empire and people with rapid strides toward dissolution,
...and gave it at last into the hands of the rude, but simple and morally vigorous, barbarians.—Schaff.

It is impossible that it should be otherwise. By apostasy that gospel had lost its purity and its power in the multitudes who professed it. It was now used only as a cloak to cover the same old pagan wickedness. This form of godliness, practiced not only without the power but in defiance of it, permeated the great masses of the people, and the empire had thereby become a festering mass of corruption.
When thus the only means which it was possible for the Lord himself to employ to purify the people, had been taken and made only the cloak under which to increase unto more ungodliness, there was no other remedy; destruction must come. {August 14, 1900 ATJ, to be continued}
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 09/18/17 02:11 AM

{August 14, 1900 ATJ, continued}

And it did come, by a host, wild and savage, it is true, but whose social habits were so far above those of the people which they destroyed, that, savage as they were, they were caused fairly to blush at the shameful corruptions which they found in this so-called Christian society of Rome.

A writer who lived at the time of the barbarian invasions, and who wrote as a Christian, exclaims:—

..."The church, which ought everywhere to propitiate God, what does she but provoke him to anger?
...How many may one meet, even in the church, who are not still drunkards, or debauchees,
...or adulterers, or fornicators, or robbers, or murderers, or the like, or all these at once,
...without end? It is even a sort of holiness among Christian people to be less vicious."
...From the public worship of God, and almost during it, they pass to deeds of shame. Scarce a
...rich man but would commit murder and fornication. We have lost the whole power of Christianity, .
...and offend God the more, that we sin as Christians. We are worse than the barbarians and heathen.
...If the Saxon is wild, the Frank faithless, the Goth inhuman, the Alanian drunken, the Hun
...licentious, they are, by reason of their ignorance, far less punishable than we, who,
...knowing the commandments of God, commit all these crimes.—Schaff.

...You, Roman, Christians, and Catholics, are defrauding your brethren, are grinding the
...faces of the poor, are frittering away your lives over the impure and heathenish spectacles
...of the amphitheater. You are wallowing in licentiousness and inebriety. The barbarians,
...meanwhile, heathen or heretics though they may be, and however fierce toward us,
...are just and fair in their dealings with one another. The men of the same clan, and
...following the same king, love one another with true affection. The impurities of
...the theater are unknown amongst them. Many of their tribes are free from the taint of
...drunkenness, and among all, except the Alans and the Huns, chastity is the rule.

...Not one of these tribes is altogether vicious. If they have their vices, they have also
...their virtues, clear, sharp, and well defined. Whereas you, my beloved fellow provincials,
...I regret to say, with the exception of a few holy men among you, are altogether bad. Your
...lives from the cradle to the grave are a tissue of rottenness and corruption,
...and all this notwithstanding that you have the sacred Scriptures in your hands.

...In what other race of men would you find such evils as these which are practiced
...among the Romans? Where else is there such injustice as ours? The Franks know nothing
...of this villainy. The Huns are clear of crimes like these. None of these exactions are
...practiced among the Vandals, none among the Goths. So far are the barbarian Goths from
...tolerating frauds like these, that not even the Romans who live under the Gothic rule are
...called upon to endure them, and hence the one wish of all the Romans in those parts is
...that it may never be necessary for them to pass under the Roman jurisdiction. With one
...consenting voice the lower orders of Romans put up the prayer that they may be permitted
...to spend their life, such as it is, alongside of the barbarians. And then we marvel
...that our arms should not triumph over the arms of the Goths, when our own countrymen
...would rather be with them than with us.—Salvian.

These events of the Seven Trumpets are important in another sense also; that is, that the peoples by whom was wrought "the divine judgment of destruction upon this nominally Christian, but essentially heathen, world," are, in their descent, the great nations of to-day; and are to-day the living subjects of the prophecies relating to our times.

In the destruction of the Western Empire there were planted, in its place, the ten kingdoms of the seventh chapter of Daniel, of which the seven that remain after the rooting up of the three before the papacy, are the kingdoms in whose "days," according to Dan. 2:44, "shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever."


The first four trumpets are not, however, an account of the planting of the ten kingdoms. These are prophetic pictures of the most terrible of the mighty invasions by which Western Rome was ruined, and through which the ten kingdoms were planted. There were more than ten nations engaged in the invasion and ruin of the Roman Empire. Indeed, there were more than fifteen of those nations; and, out of this number, ten kingdoms, divided among themselves the territory of Western Rome.

Continued next week.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 09/26/17 05:06 AM

Summary thus far in this study.

The third angel's message is part of the 7th trumpet.
The first six trumpets build up to the third angel's message.

Actually the seven churches and seven seals all build up to the event from slightly different perspectives, each series adding different details to help us see the whole picture.

The issue is between false and true worship.

The study so far has been focused on the making of the "beast" (a powerful false worship).
This is explained in the first churches and seals.

Imperial Rome nurtured this "beast" and "made it".
But false worship, though powerful in a political way, is powerless to change the nature of mankind's carnal mind and ambitions.
Society in general did not become a more "godly" society, when Imperial Rome adopted Christianity and formed the "beast" power. The so called "heathen" had better morals!

There was no other remedy, destruction must come, and it did.
Trumpet after trumpet was sounded upon them, (four in number) till the political, so called, Christian Rome (the western Empire) fell.


What do we learn from this?
What does this history teach us?

These are question we need to contemplate in light of what is happening in our day.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 09/26/17 04:57 PM

Quote:
But what angel preceded the angel of Rev. 14:6? Following back in the book of Revelation, we find no angel, except the seventh trumpet angel in Revelation eleven. Then we come to the first verse of chapter ten; and there we read: "And I saw another mighty angel."

In studying revelation, can we compare the order from one chapter to another? Especially considering chapter 12 comes after chapter 11. Could he be wrong on this idea? How does this compare when Ellen White says trumpet after trumpet shall sound in the last days (future)? Technically, that would mean at least 2 more would sound, and reasonably that would mean 3 or more would need to sound.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 09/27/17 07:44 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
But what angel preceded the angel of Rev. 14:6? Following back in the book of Revelation, we find no angel, except the seventh trumpet angel in Revelation eleven. Then we come to the first verse of chapter ten; and there we read: "And I saw another mighty angel."

In studying revelation, can we compare the order from one chapter to another? Especially considering chapter 12 comes after chapter 11.


Basically A.T.Jones bases this on the fact that Revelation 14's "first" angel, is "another angel".

"Another angel" seems to imply that there was an angel before him.
So Jones, goes back to Rev. 13 and finds only the account of the beast and the image of the beast (these are the powers that that the Revelation 14's angels loudly warn against). But there is no angel mention Revelation 13.

Then Jones, goes back to Rev. 12, and finds a dragon (Satan) fighting against Christ and His "bride" -- this dragon is the power behind the beast and the image of the beast, which the angel of Revelation 14 warned against.

But still he sees no other angel (he's looking for an angel with messages from heaven).

He has to go back to Revelation eleven before he sees any other angels, but this is just the trumpet angel, so he is still looking for the "beginning" angel.



Originally Posted By: Kland
Could he be wrong on this idea?


It is a bit of a different way of looking at the scriptures, as John the Revelator, presents things in parallel sequences, not necessarily in actual sequence.

Yet there are numerous other indicators that he is correct. He finds his "primary" angel in this sequence, in Rev. 8:13

1st trumpet (8:7)
2nd trumpet (8:8
3rd trumpet (8:9-11)
4th trumpet (8:12)
AN ANGEL (8:13)
5th trumpet (9:1-11)
6th trumpet (9:12-21
ANOTHER ANGEL (10:1)
Revelation 10
  • angel announces the end of time reckoning
  • Seven thunders (which EGW says"the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages" 7BC 971.6
  • the message is welcomed as intensely sweet
  • but the bitterness of misunderstanding is also intense
  • they must prophecy again

Revelation 11
The beast is given a death wound by the very nation it called "it's first son of the church". A movement meant to end Christianity and the Bible was used by God to bring freedom of religion and made scripture available to all.

The seventh trumpet (Rev. 11:15-19)


This ends the sequential seven trumpets.

Revelation 12 and 13 present the contestants against Christ.
Revelation 14 gives the call to worship God, and strongly warns against these contestants.
ANOTHER ANGEL (14:6)
ANOTHER ANGEL (14:8)
A THIRD FOLLOWED (14:9)



Originally Posted By: Kland
How does this compare when Ellen White says trumpet after trumpet shall sound in the last days (future)? Technically, that would mean at least 2 more would sound, and reasonably that would mean 3 or more would need to sound.


As you study through the trumpets a very strong picture emerges concerning the "beast" and those who unite with him-- the real power of which wasn't yet realized during the first four trumpets.

The next two trumpets happen when the beast is in it's 1260 years of power.

The last or seventh trumpet is not only concerning the revival of the "beast" but now he receives a partner -- the "image of the beast".
Revelation 13 introduces us to that aspect.

The image of the beast will follow the SAME pattern as the beast -- history will repeat itself in swift and short order.



Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, and sadly the world is moving to repeat it.

May we be with those pictured in Revelation 14:1-7
with Jesus -- our lives showing the victory over sin that only true faith in Christ can bring.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 09/28/17 08:10 AM

First four trumpets sounded -- what did it signify?

A.T.Jones continues in --
"The Third Angel's Message. Its Basis in the Seven Trumpets" Advent Review and Sabbath Herald August 28, 1900 p. 552




"IN the events of the first four of the Seven Trumpets, the Western Empire of Rome was blotted out.

Out of the tribes of barbarians, which, like mighty tides, in succession overflowed the territory of Western Rome, ten established themselves in ten independent kingdoms, and there stood as independent kingdoms in A. D. 476, when the last vestige of the Roman Empire had vanished.
The Western Empire of Rome was gone, and just ten nations stood in her territory, in her stead...

These ten kingdoms were first mentioned in the prophecy of Daniel, especially in the "ten horns" of the "fourth beast." Dan. 7:7, 24. They are referred to later in the book of Revelation, in the description of the dragon, and also of the Beast, having "seven heads and ten horns." Also, in the prophecy of Daniel it is related that there would come up among these ten another one, a stout little horn,and by it three of the ten would be "plucked up by the roots." The three which were plucked up, were the Heruli, who occupied Italy; the Vandals, who occupied North Africa; and the Ostrogoths, who had been instrumental in uprooting the Heruli, and then occupying Italy in their place.
That "other one," before whom these three were rooted up, is described as having "eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things;" and was, and is, the papacy....

They stand there in precisely the condition in which that prophecy said they would stand—"partly strong, and partly broken," or weak. Britain, France, and Germany have spread their power over the whole world, and have so intertwined themselves in the affairs of the whole world that what touches the world touches them, and what touches them touches the world.

And these kingdoms, with the papacy, are the elements that compose the Beast and his power, against whose work, with that of the Image of the Beast, the Third Angel's Message utters its solemn warning.

Thus, in one way, through the Seven Trumpets we find the place of the great nations of Western Europe, as they are to-day. And, in another way, we thus find, through the Seven Trumpets, the basis of the Third Angel's Message.

And, in yet other ways, we shall find these same things through the remaining three of the Seven Trumpets.

* * * (the next paragraphs taken from A.T.Jones 1895 sermon, recorded in GC Bulletin)

For centuries the Roman Empire was the world; civilization was embraced within its limits, under its control. The papacy saw the Roman Empire go to pieces; she saw universal anarchy there. She saw the world at that time in its death agony, yet out of that death agony of the world she exalted herself to the supremacy that she had in the Dark Ages and wrought the mischief that cursed the world so long.

The papacy sees the same elements working again—the same movements again going on among the nations, and she congratulates herself. “We did it once. Once I rose upon the ruins of that thing. I will do it again. That demonstrated to the world in that day that I was superior to all earthly things.

This will demonstrate to the world in this day—large as it is—‘I am, and there is none else beside me.’ I shall be a lady forever. ‘I sit a queen and am no widow and shall see no sorrow.’”
That is her tone; that is what she is watching for; and God has opened this up to us in the prophecies that are before us and he wants us to call to all the people that the world is in its death agony. She raised herself upon the ruins of the death agony of the Roman world, and after the pattern of her old experience, she proposes to do the like thing now. She will succeed; that is certain. And it is likewise certain that her success will be her certain ruin, and therefore, “Come out of her my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins and that ye receive not of her plagues.”


Comments:

When Imperial Rome fell, the papacy saw it as an opportunity to gain power. At this point in Revelation 8:13 the primary angel is first seen declaring the woes upon the world --
The millennium to follow is the 1260 years of papal primacy.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 09/28/17 05:25 PM

Quote:
"Another angel" seems to imply that there was an angel before him.
So Jones, goes back to Rev. 13 and finds only the account of the beast and the image of the beast (these are the powers that that the Revelation 14's angels loudly warn against). But there is no angel mention Revelation 13.
John saw many angels when in vision. Jones is implying a "primary" angel, creating an order of the visions. Not sure you can do that. And especially crossing from chapter 12 into 11. Two totally different sets of visions.

Did John see Revelation over time or all in one setting? If one setting, can the phrase, "another angel", be used to imply order rather than just another angel of many he had seen?

For if order is implied throughout Revelation, to mean the three angels come after the trumpets, then what does one do with the fact of the "another angel" with the everlasting gospel comes after the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth standing with the Lamb as seen in the first part of the same chapter 14?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 09/30/17 07:24 AM

No, I don't think John sees Revelation all in one setting.
There is a definite sequential order, however, it is given in overlaying imagery.

Sort of like overlaying one picture with another picture--

First you see only the seven churches stretched across the landscape of the post-cross history.
Then another transparency is placed on top, and now you still see the churches, but above them four horses are riding, and a few other images appear near the end- like rocks falling, and angel's holding winds.
Then a third transparency is placed over it-- and we see how the winds were building up throughout history.
By the end of the book, when all the transparencies are in place, the earth's whole history from the cross to the final restoration is all filled in -- it is one story, but it came in layers.

Thus yes, we can see some organization in the angels.

There are announcement angels -- angel's that announce something to the people of earth, these are the ones that pertain to the discussion.

Then there are action angels.

And there are "human" messengers or leaders.


Action angels would include:
Rev. 1:1 angel sent to guide John in his writing and understanding (He is mentioned in several places in the book)
Rev. 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, with incense...
Revelation 8 and 9 The seven trumpet angels are action angels
Rev. 15-16 Seven plague angels
Rev. 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit


Human messengers or leaders "angels":

Seven angels (those to whom the letters were given) of the seven churches.


The ones we are most interested in for this discussion are the
Announcement angels:

Rev. 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book. (He announces the opening of Christ's work in the sanctuary)

Rev. 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God:

Both the above angels are announcing something that concerns the work of heavenly beings. They aren't part of the warning angels.

So that takes us to the angel which A.T.Jones, identified as the "primary angel" in the messages of warning given to the people of earth.

Rev. 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe,

This is NOT a trumpet angel even though he appears between the fourth and fifth trumpets.
The significance here is that the "beast" that was created by imperial Rome will now, after the fall of imperial Rome rise to power that will cause much woe.

Interesting -- contrast the three "woe, woe, woe" with the "holy, holy, holy" that the heavenly hosts sing to God.
This is very much in connection with Rev. 12 and 13 -- there the Unholy trinity is exposed. The dragon (father of evil) the "beast" in the place of Christ, and the "image of the beast" playing the role of the Holy Spirit in leading people to the one sitting in the place of Christ.

Rev. 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven,

Announces the end of the time lines --
At that point the beast looses his power, a period of relative peace and freedom enables people to "prophecy again" and give the final message.

Rev. 14:6 First angel's message
Rev. 14:8 Second angel's message
Rev. 14:9 Third angel's message


These are strong warnings against the beast, image of the beast and dragon, while urging the people to return to the worship of their Creator God.

Rev. 14 has three more angels, but their messages occur after the close of probation and are directed to One reaping the earth.

There is one more angel urgently warning the people of earth, he unites with the second angel's message for a last urgent call to come out of false worship.

Rev. 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

When this next angel appears, it will be too late.

Rev. 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;












Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/01/17 01:32 AM

Back to an analysis of the third Angel's message based on the Trumpets.

A point was brought out that the Roman Empire did not fall while it was in its “pagan state” it fell after it became “Christian”. Why, would this happen? Isn’t it logical to think that becoming a Christian empire should bring with it a godly way of life complete with God’s blessings and protection?

The fact of course is, that Imperial Rome took the name “Christian” but denied the power of true Christianity. Their lives did not change. Imperial Rome supported the papacy into becoming the “head” of all religion. A religion they expected everyone to uniformly embrace. They groomed the “beast” power, and elevated him above other religious leaders.

Yet, the state of society was steeped in licentiousness, immorality, greed, and evil of many kinds.
The following text fully defined the state of things:
2 Tim. 3:2-5 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:

God could not bless; thus the judgments fell.



IN the events of the first four of the Seven Trumpets, the Western Empire of Rome fell.
Out of the tribes of barbarians, which, like mighty tides, in succession overflowed the territory of Western Rome, ten established themselves in ten independent kingdoms.

These ten kingdoms were first mentioned in the prophecy of Daniel, especially in the "ten horns" of the "fourth beast." Dan. 7:7, 24. They are referred to later in the book of Revelation, in the description of the dragon, and also of the Beast, each having "seven heads and ten horns."

So what happened now in the religious field?

In the prophecy of Daniel seven, it is related that there would come up among these ten another one, more stout than the rest, and by it three of the ten would be "plucked up by the roots." This stout horn would speak great words of blasphemy, seek to change times and laws, and persecutes God's saints.

In other words – Imperial Rome fell, but out of the ashes of that fallen civilization the papacy would emerge “more stout” or stronger than the other ten horns that took over the territories.

The fall of Rome was a mighty shaking up of nations, divinely symbolized by the trumpets blown by angels who stand in the presence of God. Its fall is a type of the trouble, preceding the final destruction of the world.

When nations fell, and emperors ceased to grant protection, men sought safety in the shadow of the church. Daily the power of the pope increased, and from the decaying ruins of ancient Rome, the papacy rose. But even though the church had the name of life, it was dead.

Thus it will be again in the near future, when society no longer offers security, people will seek safety in the shadow of the church of Rome, the papacy will emerge as the great savior, with the answers. An image to the papacy will form, but though it has the name of life, it is dead and brings only more woes upon itself and the world.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/02/17 05:04 PM

Again:
For if order is implied throughout Revelation, to mean the three angels come after the trumpets, then what does one do with the fact of the "another angel" with the everlasting gospel comes after the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth standing with the Lamb as seen in the first part of the same chapter 14?
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/03/17 09:53 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
IN the events of the first four of the Seven Trumpets, the Western Empire of Rome fell.
Out of the tribes of barbarians, which, like mighty tides, in succession overflowed the territory of Western Rome, ten established themselves in ten independent kingdoms.

These ten kingdoms were first mentioned in the prophecy of Daniel, especially in the "ten horns" of the "fourth beast." Dan. 7:7, 24. They are referred to later in the book of Revelation, in the description of the dragon, and also of the Beast, each having "seven heads and ten horns."

So what happened now in the religious field?

In the prophecy of Daniel seven, it is related that there would come up among these ten another one, more stout than the rest, and by it three of the ten would be "plucked up by the roots." This stout horn would speak great words of blasphemy, seek to change times and laws, and persecutes God's saints.

In other words – Imperial Rome fell, but out of the ashes of that fallen civilization the papacy would emerge “more stout” or stronger than the other ten horns that took over the territories.


After the first four trumpets an angel with a message is heard -- WOE, WOE, WOE,

Why? Because Papal Rome stoops to conquer.

Few see that connection, but that is the underlying theme in the trumpets.
To understand we need to go back in time before the four trumpets sounded. We already noted that imperial Rome, was grooming the Roman bishop as the supreme pontiff, and Christianity was adopting and "Christianizing" pagan customs. Christianity had all but lost it's spiritual power to transform lives.

But in the east things were developing a little differently. When Jerusalem fell, thousands of Christian Jews fled across the Jordan. According to Eusebius these Christians fled to the city of Pella and surrounding areas. Christianity became quite strong in the Syrian and trans-Jordan regions, as can be seen by studying the ruins of ancient cities in that area.

The Biblical truths that were established in the first few centuries of Christianity were largely to the credit of the Syrian Christian bishops and leaders who stood up against the strange theories that were coming into the church.

When Imperial Rome made Christianity the state religion, everything shifted to the power of Rome, including theological matters. Persecution of Christians did not stop, as is often assumed, when Rome became Christian. Only then it was called "heretic hunting". By the time emperor Justinian in 532 was ruling, he followed a very aggressive policy of subjecting everything to imperial Christianity.

Devout Christians who could not agree with the Imperial Christianity were seriously persecuted. Thousands migrated from the Syrian region east into the Persian Empire and even further. Thus Christianity spread eastward from Syria on into India. These were Sabbath keeping Christians (an interesting study of its own).

So this was the condition of things when the Eastern Emperor, Justinian, encoded in law that the pope, who was now the sole Roman authority in the west, was the head of all churches and was to deal with all "heretics".

They had already routed the three strong Semi-Arian tribes, (plucked up three of the horns) but how were they going to deal with all those "heretics" who had fled into other territories?

Another problem was a constant fighting between Eastern Roman Empire and the Persian Empire.

A solution -- get the Arabs united into a united fighting condition and get them to subdue the Persians and deal with all those "heretics". And, the plan was also to get Jerusalem back into the control of Rome.


ORIGINS OF ISLAM

According to al-islam.org Mohammad was born to Abdullah and Amina. His father, Abdullah, passed away a few days before his birth. He was born in the city of Mecca in Arabia. His forefathers were the chiefs of the tribe of Quraysh. The first five years of his life, Mohammad was taken care of by a country woman, then he returned to be with his mother, but she died a year later. He then went to live with his uncle and his wife, Abu Talib and Fatima.

Another source tells us:
'Teachers were sent to young Muhammad and he had intensive training preparing him for his mission. Muhammad studied the works of St. Augustine, which prepared him for his "great calling." Other Catholics helped influence him. The Vatican had Catholic Arabs spread the story of a great one who was about to rise up among the people and be the chosen one of their God.
Their scheme worked! Sort of -- but not the way they had hoped. Muhammad believed he was specially chosen, he had revelations, and wrote the Koran. Creating a "new" monotheistic religion out of a mix of Old Testament teachings, Christian teachings, his own interpretations and ideas and Arab culture. Overcoming a few set backs, he eventually had great success in winning his country men, and soon they started to do just what the Catholics hoped they would do -- BUT these Arabs had no intentions of "serving" the Catholics, or giving them any of their conquered lands!

Mohammedanism moved like a tornado in the years following 622 A.D., conquering Saudi Arabia, Egypt, defeating the Persians and taking Syria and Palestine, but they also took lands from the eastern Roman Empire, and all of northern Africa.

The scheme was backfiring, and as the Muslim Arabs started coming up into Spain, Papal Rome was very worried -- that was not how the plan was supposed to work.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/03/17 04:27 PM

The His Child effect: Can't answer the question, avoid it.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/03/17 08:12 PM

Already answered your question -- in the "layered" illustration, post 4201.
I have no desire to go in circles when my answers are not read.
Posted By: APL

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/03/17 08:15 PM

If Islam has origins from Catholicism, why the resistance of recognizing the King of the North being those that occupy the territory located North of Israel? Western Rome was broken up into 10 kingdoms, and Eastern Rome, the capital in Constantinople, was eventually taken over by the Ottoman Turks. Not even James White called the KOTN the Papacy, he called it Rome. It is the remains of Eastern Rome. Rome includes more that just the Papacy, how about Opus Dei and the Jesuits? Just because the scheme backfired, does not remove who now occupies the territory in the North.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/04/17 01:23 AM

So far --
  • The papacy was groomed by Imperial Rome.
  • A powerless form of Christianity doing nothing to transform the carnal nature results in a licentious society bearing Christ's name.
  • The western imperial Rome is "weighed in the balances" and found wanting and falls. (Trumpet after trumpet sounds as it crumbles under the onslaught of armies)
  • Papal Rome rises from the ashes of imperial Rome and gains sovereign power over religion for 1260 years.
  • The nature of sovereign power over religion is to eradicate all who don't agree with that power and submit to its mandates.
  • Three strong Semi-Arian nations uprooted under combined efforts and influence of Papacy and eastern emperor.
  • There are still many true Christians in the east, they start fleeing further east out of range of the beast power.
  • Wars with Persia, (where many of these Christians had fled) as well as the desire to control Jerusalem, which the Persians had captured in 614 AD, caused the papal party to devise a plan to use the Arab armies settle these matters for them.
  • Mohammad was "groomed" to lead in this plan.
  • But that backfired big time. As the now combined Arab tribes had no desire to fight for the Catholics.


So now let's turn again to A.T.Jones' account.

...."The first four trumpets sound in Rev. 8:7-12. Immediately following the fourth, between that and
....the fifth trumpet angel, comes in the first one in this other series of angels that connects straight
....through to the Third Angel's Message.

...."We have found that the Seven Trumpets prophesy the consequences of the making of the Beast,
....which grew out of the great apostasy from Christianity. The Beast was made in the Roman Empire by the
....union of the apostate church with that republic which had degenerated into an imperial despotism;
....and the result to the Roman Empire, of the making of the Beast, was the utter ruin of that empire.

{Did the eastern Roman Empire learn the lesson? No, it did not, but in its turn helped elevate the papacy to even greater levels, thus too, the result of linking up with the papacy brought about it's utter ruin as well.)

....Sept, 4, 1900 RH
...."The fifth and sixth trumpets, likewise, mark the ruin of the Eastern Empire of Rome, and introduce
....the peoples by whom that ruin was accomplished, who are the modern nations of Eastern Europe and of Asia.
......."And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth:
.......and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit;
.......and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace;...Rev. 9.

....This trumpet covers a period of eight hundred and seventeen years,—A.D. 632-1449,
....—and shows the rise and work of the Mohammedans in the destruction of Eastern Rome—first
....the Arabian Mohammedans and later the Turkish Mohammedans. Of this Albert Barnes remarks that,
...."with surprising unanimity, commentators have agreed in regarding this as referring to the
....empire of the Saracens, or to the rise and progress of the religion and the empire set up by Mohammed."
....We can not see how any one who will ready the prophecy, and Gibbon's history of Mohammed and his
....successors in the light of it, can disagree with the application of the prophecy to the Mohammedans.

....The term "bottomless pit," which denotes the place of their rise, is from the Greek word abussos,
....and signifies a waste, desolate region.
....And to any one who will read Gibbon's chapter L, paragraphs 2-5, the significance and aptness
....of the term as applied to Arabia will readily be discerned.

....The vast hordes of the Mohammedans are shown under the symbol of a cloud of locusts;
....and in verses 7-9 the meaning of the symbol is made plain by the words,
....... "The shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; . . .
........and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle."

....For more than six hundred years the Mohammedans had no regularly organized government,
....and recognized no such dignitary as that which answers to the title of king....
....They were united by religion, not by a king. While this was the case, it is evident, and it
....is the fact too, that their character as "a destroyer," was not, and could not be, such as it
....was after they were solidly united in one government, under the sway of a ruler recognized by all.

....This is made more apparent when it is seen what was to be destroyed by this "destroyer."
....The first four trumpets show the ruin of the Western Empire of Rome; and the fifth
....relates to the destruction of the Eastern Empire. And it is in the character of the destroyer
....of the last remains of the Imperial Roman Empire that this power acts...as "a destroyer," to
....the final destruction of the Roman Empire, which was then represented in the Eastern Empire,
....with the capital at New Rome—Constantinople.


But lets look at those first 600 years before discussing the 150 years.

Those 600 years were years of crusades and war!

The new Islamic power launched countless crusades against all the countries around them! Islamic Crusades were very successful. The Byzantines and Persian Empires had worn themselves out with fighting. Into this weakened political scene stormed Islam.

If the attacked city or region did not want to convert to Islam, then they paid a jizya tax. If they converted, then they paid a zakat tax. Either way, money flowed back to the Islamic treasury in Arabia or to the local Muslim chief.

Those early years of Muslim history saw many Muslim conquests spreading over many countries. From a long list of conquests, here's just a sampling:

673-678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire, though the city was not taken at that time.

691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem. Only six decades after Muhammad’s death the Muslims had set up their tabernacles in the so called "holy city" of Jerusalem.

831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; they raid Southern Italy.

937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked . Christians do not fare well in Palestine.

It is obvious that Islam is expansionist, even before they had a "king" over them, their very religion motivated them to conquer and subjugate the world to express Allah’s perfect will on this planet.

In this the Muslims and the Roman Papal ambitions are the same. Both looked to the sword as the means to "convert" the world. Christian Europe was also divided into several tribes, each with their own king, but it was also religion that united them, with pope the head of religion.

It was still within those 600 years we see the Papal crusades retaliating:

1095 Pope Urban II calls for the first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099.

In 1147–49, the Second Crusade attempted to take Damascus
in Syria. The campaign was a dismal failure because the Muslims had regrouped. Led by Salah al-Din (Saladin), Muslim forces advanced across Syria and finally retook Jerusalem in October 1187.

1189–92 the Third Crusade

1202 -- the fourth crusade showed the real character of papal Rome. By this time the eastern, Bysantium Christians had broken away from the papal led religion. Constantinople Christianity would not acknowledge the pope as their head.
Next we see the Papal Crusaders besieging the Byzantium’s capital, Constantinople. They conquered the city, pillaged and robbed it, and set it up as Latin city.
Yes, the fourth Crusades biggest accomplishment had nothing to do with Muslims, it was the papal armies that besieged, conquered and pillaged Constantinople.

1261 the Byzantium's regained Constantinople, but the Byzantium Empire was so weakened it had little defenses to withstand Muslim threats.

Papal Christianity sent many crusades against CHRISTIAN centers to destroy those who would not be subject to the pope.

It's true the Muslims destroyed the eastern Roman Empire later on, but Papal Rome also helped to destroy the Byzantine Empire.
Roman Christianity is no more tolerant and just as globally ambitious as the Muslim nations.

These are the two forces whose goal is to control the world and enforce their religion upon all.

All those crusades and battles of Christians and Muslims happened BEFORE the 150 year spoken of the 5th trumpet.

As Jones wrote -- the fifth trumpet covers 800 years of Muslim/Christian war, and caps it off with the 150 years.
We'll talk about the 150 years in the next post.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/04/17 01:46 AM

Roman Christianity would love for people to think they are the good guys in these battles -- the ones to save the world. But they are not. Those who look to them as spiritual leaders will suffer the same fate as western Rome and eastern Rome.
When the USA finalizes its hand clasp with papal Rome it too will end up in utter ruin.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/04/17 02:23 AM

Who actually killed the eastern empire?

Yes, the final blow was given by Muslim armies but who actually killed the eastern empire?

Consider:
1054 A.D., marks the great schism -- the Byzantium Christians no longer considered the pope the head of their churches.

Papal Roman wrath was against all who refused to consider the pope the head!

So what happened?

In 1147 the second crusade marched through the Eastern Roman Empire, plundering on their way.

Had the Christian countries united against the Turks, the Turks would not of had a chance to establish themselves as they did. The Christian nations would have repelled them and Constantinople would have stood strong.

But that was not the reality. The Eastern Empire suffered as much, if not more, as the Turks under the crusades!

The great blow came with fourth crusade.
April 13, 1204 instead of marching against the Turks, the crusade leaders responded to the bribes of a young man whose father had usurped the Byzantine throne only to be removed, this young man, Alexius, promised the crusaders money and that he would bring the Byzantine Empire back under the authority of the POPE, if they gave him the throne.

So the crusaders turned on Constantinople, besieged and conquered it, placing Alexius on the throne. But Alexius could not pay the bribe, so the crusaders pillaged and ravaged Constantinople. They seized both the city and the empire and placed a Latin emperor on the throne in Constantinople. Byzantium had lost its central government which had successfully resisted its enemies so many time before.

For more than eight centuries successive Byzantine emperors had ruled this empire, but this had been swept aside by the armies of the Fourth Crusade-- the holy warriors of the Catholic Church. Now a northern European, named Baldwin, sat on a throne with western knights and soldiers acclaiming him king, while the Byzantine residents were either dead or fleeing the horrors the western crusaders had so brutally wrecked upon their great city.

But the Byzantine empire was not yet dead-- in 1261-1328 a strong leader, Michael VIII, began making headway in restoring the eastern empire. However, his advantage turned when Charles, a younger brother of Louis IX of France, and a devotee of the Papacy joined up with the deposed Latin Emperor, Baldwin, with the ambition of retaking Constantinople. As the empire's enemies multiplied, Pope Gregory X asked Michael VIII to negotiate a reunion of the two churches and he would restrain Charles's crusade against Constantinople. Michael agreed, but was not supported by the eastern church leaders. He appointed a new patriarch, John Beccus, who persecuted enough to bring the church under "outward control", but most eastern Christians rejected the union. Michael went on to recapture more territory and rebuild the empire.

Back in the west, Charles made fresh plans for a crusade against Byzantium, with the help of the Pope on the basis that Michael VIII had failed to achieve a genuine reunion of churches. But Sicily rose in revolt against Charles and Charles had to abandon his crusade.
Michael VIII was the last strong ruler, corruption in the Byzantine empire itself as well as the many attacks from all sides, were destroying it.

Why, all this history?

It reveals Papal policy. They wanted all Christianity under their control. During this time they launched some of the bloodiest crusades against Christians, brutally killing thousands. We already mentioned the wars against the Waldensians. The Albigensian Crusade (1209-1229) is an example of a brutal 20-year military campaign initiated by the Roman Catholic Church to eliminate a Christian group which the Roman Catholic hierarchy considered heretical. The violence inflicted was extreme even by medieval standards. Lands were confiscated and given to France.

It was the crusades that ravished Constantinople with terrible brutality, not only killing, but also smashing and plundering.
As one historian, Runciman in "History of the Crusades III" (p. 474 and quoted by Philips in "The fourth Crusade" xiv) wrote: The harm done by the crusaders to Islam was small in comparison with that done to the Eastern Christians."
Posted By: APL

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/04/17 03:46 AM

And with all you have just written, who now occupies that territory? Islam.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/04/17 04:46 AM

This is about the trumpets --
and how they support the three angels messages.

My posts were discussing the first four trumpets.
And now we are into the fifth trumpet. --
Discussing the first 600 years after Papal Rome and the Muslim power came into being.
Next we will discuss the 150 years of the fifth trumpet.

But a quick answer --
Constantinople is under Turkish rule now, because, for one reason, that's what the papacy wanted.

After the First World War, during which the Ottoman empire was finally, fully defeated, the Armistice of Mudros decreed that Istanbul (Constantinople) would be occupied by Allied Forces. On 13 November 1918, the Occupation of Constantinople by Allied forces began, ending on 23 September 1923.

The plans for Constantinople were a matter of much debate at the time. The Treaty of Sevres, envisioned Constantinople and the straits as a semi-international zone.

There was talk of giving Russia (which was the "new" orthodox church stronghold since the time Constantinople was lost) some control and again making Constantinople the center of the Orthodox Christianity.
There was also talk of the Greeks having control of the city.

But some very influential letters were written urging that the occupation cease and the city be given to the new Turkish government.

Some of the more influential letters came from the papacy.
The thought of giving their great rival in religious matters (the orthodox church) their capital back, was not a welcomed proposition.

Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/05/17 01:38 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Already answered your question -- in the "layered" illustration, post 4201.
I have no desire to go in circles when my answers are not read.
Ummm, gonna have to help me out here as post #4201 is ...well, that just doesn't make sense.... and post #184201 is by Alchemy.
Posted By: APL

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/05/17 05:28 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: dedication
Already answered your question -- in the "layered" illustration, post 4201.
I have no desire to go in circles when my answers are not read.
Ummm, gonna have to help me out here as post #4201 is ...well, that just doesn't make sense.... and post #184201 is by Alchemy.
I think she said she has posted 4,201 times, and the answer is in there - some where. She is now up to 4,210.
Originally Posted By: MSDAOL on dedication
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 4210
Loc: Canada
:-)
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/05/17 07:21 AM

Answer was in my 4201st post (not 4201 times) -- which is actually #185206 on the forum.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/05/17 09:36 AM

Originally Posted By: dedication

...."The first four trumpets sound in Rev. 8:7-12. Immediately following the fourth, between that and
....the fifth trumpet angel, comes in the first one in this other series of angels that connects straight
....through to the Third Angel's Message.

...."We have found that the Seven Trumpets prophesy the consequences of the making of the Beast,
....which grew out of the great apostasy from Christianity. The Beast was made in the Roman Empire by the
....union of the apostate church with that republic which had degenerated into an imperial despotism;
....and the result to the Roman Empire, of the making of the Beast, was the utter ruin of that empire.

Did the eastern Roman Empire learn the lesson? No, it did not, but in its turn helped elevate the papacy to even greater levels, thus too, the result of linking up with the papacy brought about it's utter ruin as well


Justinian, codified Roman law, and in it he included
Quote:
Hence, in accordance with the provisions of these Councils, We order that the Most Holy Pope of ancient Rome shall hold the first rank of all the Pontiffs, but the Most Blessed Archbishop of Constantinople, or New Rome, shall occupy the second place after the Holy Apostolic See of ancient Rome, which shall take precedence over all other sees.


I was going to share more, but ended up reading Justinian's law codes - especially the many laws dealing with religion. Wow -- the Roman law has no room for freedom of religion, and even details how the state religion must be carried out -- convert or lose all your property, be exiled or worse. Anyone who helps or hides a so called "heretic" is likewise condemned.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/07/17 02:03 AM

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: dedication
Already answered your question -- in the "layered" illustration, post 4201.
I have no desire to go in circles when my answers are not read.
Ummm, gonna have to help me out here as post #4201 is ...well, that just doesn't make sense.... and post #184201 is by Alchemy.
I think she said she has posted 4,201 times, and the answer is in there - some where. She is now up to 4,210.
Originally Posted By: MSDAOL on dedication
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 4210
Loc: Canada
:-)
I think she made a mistake in which number she gave. For how would one know which is her 4,201st post?

I'm still not understanding how that post answers the question as to why some of the time you can say angels follow other angels in chronological order and other times it's a "transparency". For if it's transparencies, then it's the same question, how do you determine order from one transparency to another? My answer is the same, you can't.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/08/17 05:13 AM

Sequential order is seen in
The seven churches -- they are given in order. (One transparency)
The seven seals -- they are given in order. (A second transparency that is layered over the first)
The seven trumpets -- they are given in order. (A third transparency layered over the first)
Five angels with special warning messages to the people of earth shocked follow in sequence --
the first when the beast gains it's power, (about 538 A.D.)
three angels, warning that the beast revives and gains a strong partner, we should worship God, not the beast and his image, God is judging who we are actually worshipping, the one we obey is our master (starting about 1840 to end)
the last warning angel gives a stronger warning reinforcing the other three (about now).




34 -150......150-312......312-538........538-1520....1520-1798......1798-1850......1850-20??
Ephesus,.... Smyrna,.... Pergamum,.... Thyatira,.... Sardis,...... Philadelphia,.... Laodicea
White horse, Red horse, black horse,.. pale horse,... 5th seal....... 6th seal....................7th seal
.......................Trumpet angels 1-4.. { shocked } trumpet angels 5-6 ..timelines end ..trumpet angel 7
.......................................................................................last church is born
dragonworks through imperial Rome.....through beast power..........................beast & image of beast
.........................................................................................................144,000 stand with Christ
..................................................................................... shocked shocked shocked (3 angel's message)...harvest of the earth.
.................................................................................................................seven last plagues
......................................................................................................... shocked Rev. 18:1


Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/08/17 05:25 AM

The first of the "warning angels" appears between the fourth and fifth trumpet, Rome has fallen, but papal Rome rises.
The three "warning angels" of Revelation 14 appear at a time when it seems the "beast" has been defeated, and the angel's are loudly proclaiming, no, he will revive and gain a powerful partner, beware, worship God, don't follow this religious counterfeit.
The next "warning angel" of Rev. 18 reinforces the message with great urgency just before the plagues come.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/15/17 09:21 AM

A review of the trumpets --

Before the trumpets --
*Constantine unites Christianity with the Roman Empire.
•The papacy was groomed by Imperial Rome.
•A powerless form of Christianity doing nothing to transform the carnal nature results in a licentious society bearing Christ's name.
•The western imperial Rome is "weighed in the balances" and found wanting and falls.
*Trumpet after trumpet (four in all) sound as the western Roman Empire crumbles under the onslaught of armies.

The Trumpets prophesy the consequences of the making of the Beast, which grew out of the great apostasy from Christianity.

Would history be different, if corruption had not reigned? Would it have been different if the "state religion", instead of treating the Christian tribes who held Semi-Arian belief, as heretics and threats to the papal church, they would have respected each other as Christians?

The uniting of state and religion, making the papal religion THE only acceptable religion, brought ruin to imperial western Rome -- a variable not often recognized.


•The papal church did not die with the death of the empire, instead it rises from the ashes of imperial Rome and gains sovereign power over religion for 1260 years.


•The nature of sovereign power over religion is to eradicate all who don't agree with that power and submit to its mandates
.
•Three strong Semi-Arian nations were uprooted under combined efforts and influence of Papacy and eastern emperor.

*The eastern Emperor, Justinian, is still in the business of "forming the beast", disposing one who seemed favorable to the Gothic kingdom that was in control of Italy and Rome, and replacing him with another pope.

*The Goths were the last of the three Semi-Arian nations to be uprooted. Now the papacy filled the vacuum of power in Italy, as well as being the "head" of all churches.

But there were still "non-compliant" Christians who -- after the agenda of state religious control, needed to be either converted, banished, or annihilated.

•There are still many true Christians in the east, they start fleeing further east out of range of the beast power.
•Wars with Persia, (where many of these Christians had fled) as well as the desire to control Jerusalem, which the Persians had captured in 614 AD, caused the papal party to devise a plan to use the Arab armies to settle these matters for them.
•Mohammad was "groomed" to lead in this plan.
•But that backfired big time. As the now combined (at least in religious motivations) Arab tribes had no desire to fight for the Catholics, but started to set up their own "empire".

The aim to control will eventually always backfire.

The fifth trumpet covers a period of eight hundred and seventeen years,—A.D. 632-1449,
....—first the Arabian Mohammedans showing the rise and work of the Mohammedans in the destruction of the Eastern Rome Empire
.... later the 150 years of Turkish Mohammedans.

Most of the conquest and the crusades took place prior to those 150 years.
And one wonders who did the most damage to the Eastern Roman Empire -- the Turks or the Christian Crusaders?

We must remember that after the Eastern Orthodox church refused to acknowledge the pope as their "head', every occasion was used to try and force them back into submission.

The Christian Crusaders weakened the Eastern Empire to a point where they no longer had the strength to resist the Turks when they came.


Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/15/17 10:33 AM

Now let's look at the fifth trumpet a little closer:

9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

A STAR FALLS

He "drops down" from heaven to the earth. But who is he?

THE KEY

Jesus holds all the keys. (Rev. 1:8 and 3:7) Who else would hold the key that shuts and opens the bottomless pit? The king of the bottomless pit, Apollan, is obviously NOT holding the key.
Jesus has given the key to a divine messenger who drops down from heaven to set loose the frightening hordes of the bottomless pit.
Later in the sixth trumpet, we see the trumpet angel told to release four bound "angels".

So in the fifth trumpet a key is given to release those confined in the bottomless pit.


9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.


THE BOTTOMLESS PIT

The "deep". We find two beasts in Revelation that ascend out of the bottomless pit. (Rev. 11:7 and 17:8) Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit. Rev. 20:1,3.
The bottomless pit seems to be a place where demonic evil is "chained". Thus when a "beast" arises from the bottomless pit, it has received it's power from "the dragon"(as we see in Rev. 13) but it is none the less a human identity.
Nahum 3:15 compares enemy warriors to locusts.

Others see "bottomless pit" as a general wasteland -- as a desert.

The vast hordes of the Mohammedans are shown under the symbol of a cloud of locusts; and in verses 7-9 the meaning of the symbol is made plain by the words, "The shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; . . . and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle." {September 4, 1900 ATJ, ARSH 568.6}

They have the power of the scorpion, not the shape of the scorpion. They sting and cause a lot of pain and suffering, but they are not as deadly as the ones coming in the sixth trumpet.

Apostolic Christians were tolerated by the Moslems at first. In fact many actually welcomed the take over of the Moslems as they had been persecuted by the Eastern emperors.
The monks apparently didn't fare so well. As the years went by animosity between Christians and Muslims grew.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/15/17 11:42 PM

and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.


The fifth and the sixth trumpet cover what is commonly called the "dark ages". What made them "dark"?

The smoke out of the bottomless pit arose on the earth, and darkened the sun, (The Son of righteousness) and filled the world with corrupt sentiments, and the minds of men with superstitious principles, - the obnoxious vapors of the doctrine of devils filled the moral air.

"The accession of the Roman Church to power marked the beginning of the Dark Ages. As her power increased, the darkness deepened. Faith was transferred from Christ, the true foundation, to the pope of Rome. Instead of trusting in the Son of God for forgiveness of sins and for eternal salvation, the people looked to the pope, and to the priests and prelates to whom he delegated authority." GC88 54

9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.


And there came locusts out of the smoke upon the earth. Smoke denotes errors, and locusts destructive armies.

The locusts of the fifth trumpet are cruel invading armies proceeding against those without the seal of God.

What is the 'seal of God'?

"The fourth commandment alone of all the ten contains the seal of the great Lawgiver, the Creator of the heavens and the earth.--6T 350 (1900)

What was happening in regards to the Sabbath during this time?

The Roman church was going ever stricter in outlawing the Saturday, Sabbath, and promoting the Sunday, "Lord's Day".

The Sabbath in the Dark Ages was still being kept, as many tried to accommodate the Catholic institution as well as keep God's Sabbath, by refraining from work TWO days every week. Saturday and Sunday.

We see many regulations being issued during this time, forbidding Sabbath keeping and enforcing Sunday keeping.

Thus the smoke of error rising out of the bottomless pit including (among other things) the church's rejection of the "the seal of God" the 7th day Sabbath.

Out of the smoke came hordes of locusts (Mohammaden Arabs) armies. Coming out to hurt those who had rejected the "seal of God".

Conclusions:

9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit (the pit where evil and demonic spirits were restrained);
and there arose a smoke out of the pit, (errors and strange doctrines)
as the smoke of a great furnace; (devouring nearly all)
and the sun (the Son of Righteousness, Jesus Christ)
and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. (blinding people from seeing Christ our Savior)
9:3 And there came out of the smoke (out of these errors)
locusts upon the earth: (aggressive armies -- Islamic Arabs)
and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. (power to sting like scorpions)
9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; (they were commanded not to destroy nature when they took a city)
but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. (The Arab warriers were sent against the Christian Church which sought to obliterated God's sign of Creation/sanctification/loyalty -- the Sabbath, the seal of God.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/17/17 03:43 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Sequential order is seen in
The seven churches -- they are given in order. (One transparency)
The seven seals -- they are given in order. (A second transparency that is layered over the first)
The seven trumpets -- they are given in order. (A third transparency layered over the first)
Five angels with special warning messages to the people of earth shocked follow in sequence --


Quote:
But what angel preceded the angel of Rev. 14:6? Following back in the book of Revelation, we find no angel, except the seventh trumpet angel in Revelation eleven. Then we come to the first verse of chapter ten; and there we read: "And I saw another mighty angel."


Are the Five angels another "transparency layered over" the others?

If so, you can't compare sequential order between them.
Only within.

If not, then you need to show why it's not a transparency, why it should be implied order to something before chapter 12. You can't cross the chapter 11-12 boundary. Two totally different parts of Revelation - "transparencies" if you will. Chapter 12 begins a new section starting at Christ's death. You can't cross it for implying sequential order to the previous part.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/18/17 05:31 AM

I have no idea what you are talking about with a boundary that can't be crossed over????? Just because the first half takes us from the prophet's day to the very end of the "time of the end" in three layered accounts, and the second half of Revelation focuses primarily on the "time of the end" does not mean they are "totally different" and don't tell the same story.

It is ONE STORY,

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=185265#Post185265

The seven churches -- they are given in order. (One transparency)
The seven seals -- they are given in order. (A second transparency that is layered over the first)
The seven trumpets -- they are given in order. (A third transparency layered over the first)

Five angels with special warning messages to the people of earth shocked follow in sequence --
the first (Rev. 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters

That angel is NOT a trumpet angel, but is the first to cry a warning to the "inhabitants of the earth" right at the time when the beast gains it's power, (about 538 A.D.) beginning the 1260 years. -- After imperial Rome fell, and the Papacy filled the power vacuum.

Revelation 13 tells us the beast receives a wound (people think he's dead for good) BUT the beast will revive and the next three angels, we see warning the inhabitants of the earth, that the beast revives and gains a strong partner, we should worship God, not the beast and his image, God is judging who we are actually worshipping, the one we obey is our master (starting about 1840 to end)

Then in Revelation 18 we see the last angel that "warns the inhabitants of the earth" --
this last warning angel gives a stronger warning reinforcing the other three == that's where we are in the course of history right NOW!



TIME PERIODS
34 -150......150-312......312-538........538-1520....1520-1798......1798-1850......1850-20??
Rev. 2-3
Ephesus,.... Smyrna,.... Pergamum,.... Thyatira,.... Sardis,...... Philadelphia,.... Laodicea
Rev. 6-7
White horse, Red horse, black horse,.. pale horse,... 5th seal....... 6th seal....................7th seal
Rev. 8-11
.......................Trumpet angels 1-4.. { shocked } trumpet angels 5-6 ..timelines end ..trumpet angel 7
..............................................papacy rises..................papacy wounded
.......................................................................................last church is born
Chapter 12-13
dragon works through imperial Rome.....through beast power..........................beast & image of beast
Chapter 14
.........................................................................................................144,000 stand with Christ
..................................................................................... shocked shocked shocked (3 angel's message)...harvest of the earth.
Chapter 15-16
................................................. ................................................................seven last plagues
Chapter 18
......................................................................................................... shocked Rev. 18:1
Rev. 19
..............................................................................................................................Second Coming





Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/20/17 10:02 AM

The third angel's message and the trumpets.

What is the theme of the third angel's message (which is the total sum of the three angels of Rev. 14)?

Have we as a church kind of lost sight of this message?

"THUS the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which He had had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made." Gen.2:1-3

Rev. 14:6-7 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Thus begins the story of earth's history.
And the last message centers on this same theme.

"The Sabbath is the memorial of creation, as we have seen. But let it not be forgotten that the Sabbath was given at the time when "God saw all that He had made; and behold, it was very good." So the Sabbath commemorates a perfect creation.

God intended the earth to be inhabited by a race of perfect beings. To these beings He gave the Sabbath, that they might keep in mind their Creator, and thus retain their perfection. That perfection was not merely physical perfection, but it was spiritual as well. Man, in perfection of character, was made in the image of God. So he was to observe the Sabbath in relationship WITH his Creator, as a reminder of the spiritual perfection that he had received from God, and that could be preserved by Him alone. Now it is to that perfect condition that the Lord is going to restore the earth, and through the Gospel He is preparing a perfect people to inhabit the restored earth. Although man has fallen, and the earth has been defiled, the Sabbath still remains, a fragment of Eden, both as a reminder to man of what God prepared in the beginning, and as a means of lifting him up to that high position, so that he may enjoy it when it is restored.

Notice that we are to remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. The Sabbath is holy, because God made it holy, and so we are to keep it. We are not to make it holy, for that would be impossible; only God could do that. No act of ours can add to or detract from its holiness. Neither do we to make ourselves holy, so that we may keep it properly. That we can not do. But the same power that sanctified the Sabbath day will sanctify us.
Ex. 31:13 Verily my sabbaths you shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that you may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

That power is the power that made the universe. It is creative power by which we are to be sanctified, for Christ is the Creator, and He is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption. God has given us the Sabbath, - the memorial of His creative power, - that we may know that He is the God that sanctifies us.

The Sabbath is the seal of God.

We don't hear that very often anymore.
Maybe it's because we have forgotten that the Sabbath is the sign that God is the ONE who sanctifies --

WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE TRUMPETS?

The religious world opposes the Sabbath.

And that is what the five angel's are warning us about.
It's what the seven trumpets are warning us about.

Imperial Rome united with Roman Catholicism and no sooner was that accomplished and we see the first Sunday law!!!
Issued by Constantine in A.D. 321.
Constantine never really gave up his sun worship when he supposedly became a Christian. His law was in honor of the "venerable Day of the sun".

During the same time the Roman bishop -- Pope Sylvester I (314 - 335) conferred on the Sunday the title of Lord's day and decreed that the rest of the Sabbath should be transferred rather to the Lord's day [Sunday]. According to this statement, he was the first bishop to introduce the idea that the divinely appointed rest of the Sabbath day should be transferred to the first day of the week.

From that point onward Emperors and Popes in succeeding centuries added more and stricter laws to increasingly enforce Sunday observance, and forbid Sabbath keeping. What began as a pagan ordinance ended as a Christian regulation.

Thus the four trumpets ---


But then we have the first WARNING Angel crying out "woe, woe, woe"
The fall of western imperial Rome did not stop the onward march of opposition to the Sabbath and the true gospel.

In its place the papacy carried on the work of replacing truth with mixture of paganism under a cloak of truth. It became the only allowed religion. It was indeed 1260 years of woe for those who clung to their faith in Christ and His commandments.

Two more trumpets sound, and this time it's Muslim armies that come against the apostate church.
Indeed the smoke of false doctrine hid the truth of the gospel. The Papal church enforces Sunday, Muslims honor Friday, neither have the true gospel. Both believe in using the sword to convert people. Sabbath keepers are persecuted extensively -- Jews as well as Christian Sabbath keepers face horrible times.
Will the smoke totally obliterate truth?

There is a reprieve after trumpet #6
Truth would shine forth!
But that window is closing, as all the forces are again marshaling.

Two points the devil fights against --
those who
1)Have the faith of Jesus,
faith in Jesus (as our Creator, Savior, Mediator, Sanctifier) Who gives us the faith of Jesus, to --
2)Keep God's commandments and be renewed in mind and character.
Resting in Him, on the day He made holy, trusting that He will make us holy, restoring us in His image, as we walk with Him.

Those two points make up the third angel's message.

Also, judgment is seen in both the trumpets and the three angel's messages. There is nothing but war and trouble, fire and brimstone, and woe for those who follow after the "beast" and his image.

But hope and eternal life for those who "follow the Lamb" Who is also the "Lord of the Sabbath", our Redeemer, Savior, Sanctifier, Creator and Re-Creator.




Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/20/17 04:21 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
I have no idea what you are talking about with a boundary that can't be crossed over????? Just because the first half takes us from the prophet's day to the very end of the "time of the end" in three layered accounts, and the second half of Revelation focuses primarily on the "time of the end" does not mean they are "totally different" and don't tell the same story.

It is ONE STORY,

Yes, it's one story!
Told different ways.
"Transparencies" as you call them.

Maybe you have a different definition of what a "transparency" is.

I see it as something that implies no order. One is overlayed over another, but the very same picture, the very same story, is shown no matter which transparency is overlayed first. Therefore, no order is implied, you cannot go from one transparency to another and say there is an order between the two.



I have no idea what your shocked faces are about....
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/22/17 03:37 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
I have no idea what your shocked faces are about....
They represent the "loud voices" of five warning angels.
Rev. 8:13
Rev. 14:6
Rev. 14:8
Rev. 14:9
Rev. 18:1

As to transparencies. -- back in the olden days before all this technology, when I was teaching elementary students, we had "overhead projectors" on which we placed plastic sheets (transparency sheets) with pictures or words on them to project onto a screen or wall. By using several transparencies one could layer them-- starting with an outline transparency, then adding additional transparencies to fill in details. These would show on the screen (or wall) as one picture. Thus indeed it showed the ORDER how they all fit together.
Posted By: kland

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/23/17 08:25 PM

You must use transparencies different than I know about.

One picture implies no order.
Whether you show the head first, or the tail first, it doesn't matter.
Same one picture.
No order.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/24/17 09:10 AM

Obviously you haven't used overhead projectors like I have.
The finished "picture", once all the transparent sheets are layered on the projector, and projected onto the screen, would look very much like my chart a couple posts above this one.
Now adays, we would probably use powerpoint, with the first scene just a timeline across the top, and have the churches come floating onto the screen and fall in their place in the timeline as we discussed them, then have the seals come floating onto the screen and fall into their place in the timeline as we discussed them -- etc. etc. till we had the full chart.



But that is getting somewhat off the topic. What I'd like to get into more is the fifth and sixth trumpet and how they fit on the timeline.

This is a foundational block in the Adventists historicist understanding, so no wonder the counterfeit reformation has almost obliterated what Protestantism once believed about those trumpets. And sadly some leading Adventists are also tearing down what was a foundational in establishing the Adventist church.



The historic interpretation of the trumpets came under attack in 1919, shortly after EGW died. A leading advocate for change in understanding, was W.W. Prescott.

What is of considerable interest here is that this dissenting leader W.W.Prescott had earlier, while EGW was working on the last edition of the Great Controversy, suggested several changes be made to the book. EGW was open to changes if they would improve the way the message was written. Most changes were minor changes like -- whether a bell rang at the palace, as some historians wrote, or at the church where she had placed it in the earlier edition, since historians disagreed on that point, and God hadn't revealed where the bell was located, EGW simply wrote "the bell tolled".

But Prescott also urged that EGW remove her endorsement of Litch's prophetic interpretations on the timelines within the fifth and sixth trumpets since historians were challenging those dates. But EGW refused. In fact she made it more emphatic with definite endorsement that these timelines were EXACTLY fulfilled! --

"In the year 1840 another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest........At the very time specified, Turkey, through her ambassadors, accepted the protection of the allied powers of Europe, and thus placed herself under the control of Christian nations. The event exactly fulfilled the prediction. GC 334
.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/25/17 06:53 AM

The warning angel of Rev. 8:13
is situated between the fourth and fifth trumpets. That is the point of beginning of the "man of sin" sitting in God's place.
At that time, Western Imperial Rome (who had brought him power) had fallen, the first four trumpets have been fulfilled.

The year? Around 538 when the Papacy begins his 1260 years of power, the warning begins-- woe, woe, woe, three woes, and that warning continues until the last woe is ended.

The "woe, woe, woe!" was pronounced upon a church which walked in the sparks of their own kindling. The Bible disregarded, the wisdom of men exalted, and the man of sin worshiped, as he placed himself between the people and their Savior.

Trumpets five and six show what happened in the past (538-1840) the trouble and destructions that fell upon the false church -- will men repent? Between trumpets 6 and 7 there is a time when the papal power receives a fatal blow and God's church rises to shout the message to stay clear of false religion and worship God the creator who is judging His people so all may eventually "discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. Mal.3:18 .

EGW links the angel of Rev. 8;13 with the angel of Rev. 18:1 in the (1888 485) file.
The angel in 8:13 begins the warning when the papal system first arises, the angel in 18:1 gives the last desperate call as that same system makes it's final attempt for supremacy over the human race.

The warning of the third angel's message -- "come out of her my people".
Posted By: dedication

Re: Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message - 10/25/17 08:20 AM

Originally Posted By: A.T.Jones
The fifth trumpet covers a period of eight hundred and seventeen years,—A.D. 632-1449,
....—and shows the rise and work of the Mohammedans in the destruction of Eastern Rome—first
....the Arabian Mohammedans and later the Turkish Mohammedans. Of this Albert Barnes remarks that,
...."with surprising unanimity, commentators have agreed in regarding this as referring to the
....empire of the Saracens, or to the rise and progress of the religion and the empire set up by Mohammed."
....We can not see how any one who will ready the prophecy, and Gibbon's history of Mohammed and his
....successors in the light of it, can disagree with the application of the prophecy to the Mohammedans.



A quick review of the first 600 years before discussing the 150 years. Those 600 years were years of crusades and war!

The new Islamic power launched countless crusades against all the countries around them! Islamic Crusades were very successful. The Byzantines and Persian Empires had worn themselves out with fighting. Into this weakened political scene stormed Islam.

It was still within those 600 years we see the Papal crusades retaliating:

1095 Pope Urban II calls for the first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099.

In 1147–49, the Second Crusade attempted to take Damascus
in Syria. The campaign was a dismal failure because the Muslims had regrouped. Led by Salah al-Din (Saladin), Muslim forces advanced across Syria and finally retook Jerusalem in October 1187.

1189–92 the Third Crusade

1202 -- the fourth crusade besieging the Byzantium’s capital, Constantinople. They conquered the city, pillaged and robbed it, and set it up as Latin city.
Yes, the fourth Crusades biggest accomplishment had nothing to do with Muslims, it was the papal armies that besieged, conquered and pillaged Constantinople.

1261 the Byzantium's regained Constantinople, but the Byzantium Empire was so weakened it had little defenses to withstand Muslim threats.

All those crusades and battles of Christians and Muslims happened BEFORE the 150 year spoken of the 5th trumpet.


But now we come to the 150 years.

They began, A. D. 1299, July 27.
Last 5 months = 150 days = 150 years.

July 27th, 1299, Othman, the founder of the Turkish empire, made his first attack on the Greeks in the battle of Bapheum. The time of Turkish harrasment extended 150 years, to 1449. Their power was to torment, not to kill. During that whole period the Turks were engaged in almost perpetual war with the Greek empire, but yet without conquering it.

Now some would contest the date 1299.

The historian Pachymeres, a Greek writer living back then, gave a detailed account of the battle and said it took place July 27, but doesn't give the year. This of course leaves room for speculation.
In 1669 another historian, Possinus did a lot of research on the matter, especially studying Pachymeres account, and concluded that the battle took place in the year 1299.
The Adventist Pioneer's favorite historian, Gibbons, agreed with Possinus, that it took place in 1299.

However a later historian, Joseph Hammer from Austria, researched the matter and decided the battle took place in 1301, A.D. and many have followed his lead.

Which one is correct?
Basically Possinus researched material from the Greek (Byzantine) side, while Hammer researched material from the Turk side.

Keep also in mind that the historicists school of prophetic interpretation during the sixteenth, seventeenth and eighteenth century were largely protestant and they accepted the 150 year interpretation as Adventists have known it.

It was the Catholic counter-reformation that steered prophetic interpretation into preterits and futurist lines of thought, both of which take the focus away from the papal church as being a central part of the prophecies.
Part of this "steering" away from historicist interpretation includes relentless attacks on dates -- not just the prophetic dates in the trumpets, but all the dates -- 1260, 2300 etc.

The objective of satan is the silencing of the third angel's message. And he will use every means possible to do it.

The third angel's message is NOT popular. The ecumenical movement is "let's all get together" while the third angel's message is "come out of her my people".

Back in 1944 "Ministry Magazine" published a whole series of articles dealing with the "time of the trumpets" by several authors.

There is plenty of evidence to believe if one wants to believe. And we as Adventists, should be careful not to give up our prophetic heritage, for how many times have Biblical things been "disproved" by historians, only to have evidence emerge to show inspiration was right after all.

Should we take it lightly that EGW writes concerning the "time" in the trumpets was EXACTLY fulfilled
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