Does God's Grace Annul His Law?

Posted By: Daryl

Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/30/01 05:02 AM

Some people use the following verse to say that God's grace has annulled His Law.

quote:

Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Is this true? Does God's grace annul His Law?

Please use the Bible to back up your answers.

Posted By: Gerry Buck

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/30/01 03:31 PM

To annul something means to put an end to it, to make it void.
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
We establish the law, the inference being that we have it as a part of us, it is established in us.
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jesus said He didn't come to destroy the law :
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
To fulfil, to establish, that all sounds like it is still in effect.
'Til heaven and earth pass away'-
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Posted By: Andrew Marttinen

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/30/01 10:11 PM

Paul himself typically begins his letters with Grace-type theology and ends them with a string of things to do that clarifies what it means to live under Grace.

The problem is that many "New Testament" Christians are one-verse Christians or they don't read to the end of Paul's letters to see what he's getting at.

Some people think that Romans has only 8 chapters. Paul actually takes 11 chapters to talk about Grace, Justification, Sanctification, Election, etc. (all that Theology) and then talks about giving our bodies entirely to God as a living sacrifice (ie. obedience).

------------------
Be glad for all God is planning for you. Be patient in trouble, and always be prayerful. Rom. 12:12 NLT

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/03/01 09:02 PM

I'm back. Was away on business. To answer the question regarding law and grace - to me it means that we are no longer "under" the condemnation of the law as lawbreakers (providing we are connected to Christ). Grace cancels condemnation - not the law.

But grace is conditional upon obedience, which in turn is conditional upon abiding in Christ. It all comes back to Jesus. Thank you, Lord!

In one sense grace does do away with the law, in that it gets our eyes on Jesus and off the law. We can never comply with the law by focusing on the law (you end up with a stoney heart). The ticket to law keeping is making Jesus number one in our lives. If we imitate His loving example the law will be satisfied by default.

WWJD is nice, but I prefer JWWD - Jesus, what would you do? The focus is Jesus instead of the law. I like talking to Jesus rather than talking about Him. He's our best friend and loves it when we talk to Him.

Posted By: Durk

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/04/01 03:46 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Gerry Buck:
To annul something means to put an end to it, to make it void.

I'm having some trouble with this definition. To annul does mean "1. to make formally void or null. 2. to reduce to nothing." (Random House Dictionary, I don't know the rest of the biblio 'cause the cover is torn off.) But I don't think it means "to put an end to" as in "stop doing something." To me it seems to cancel what has gone before.

Just hair-splitting, really.

Posted By: Durk

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/04/01 03:51 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
But grace is conditional upon obedience, which in turn is conditional upon abiding in Christ. It all comes back to Jesus. Thank you, Lord!

Hi Mike. Welcome back! Can you give me a few references on the above quote, or at least clarify your position. It seems to me that grace is conditional upon acceptance (of what Christ has done.)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/05/01 08:31 AM

Durk,

Good point. But isn't "accepting Jesus" the beginning of obedience? If we fail to accept Jesus as our personal Saviour what good is grace?

I like Hebrews 12:28 (KJV) for a working definition of grace - "Let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear." I also like Romans 1:5 (KJV) - "We have received grace... for obedience to the faith."

As I see it, grace is the power of God that empowers us to imitate the example of Jesus, who lived to please the Father. This sounds like an unmerited, undeserved gift to me. Yes, grace includes pardon, but it also involves power. I don't see how we can separate pardon and the power to obey.

What do you think?

Posted By: Durk

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/05/01 05:47 PM

Actually, when I stop to think about it, (which SHOULD HAVE BEEN the first step) I don't think grace is conditional upon anything. If it were, it would no longer be a gift, but a reward, and grace by its very definition is "unmerrited favor". ie: no conditions.

We must do something to ACCESS this grace, but there are no CONDITIONS to recieving it.

Although I quibble with your first post, I really like your second one. The more I think about it the more sense it makes. Thanks.

Posted By: Edward F Sutton

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/06/01 07:49 AM

Perhaps grace has multiple functions, with each function having conditions of access and use as well as multiple purposes or goals grace is working to achieve.

However looking at the big picture, redeeming grace is always conditional. Grace that in mercy euthanizes sin is also conditional.

Looking at a simplistic programing loop illustrates my point.

Can the people or persons be reached or worked upon or redeemed by God - yes - no .

The answer either yes or no is a condition that then determines the direction and purposes or goals of grace. Before the decisions are made that permanently align a person either toward God or against Him, grace works to align a person into harmony with God.

When final polarization is reached (ie: sealing one way or the other), grace now focuses to gather into Heaven or permanently remove sin. The appropriate steps are then started. Talking about conditions of grace on this scale is usually beyond personal points of discussion being made when talking about grace. The condition of grace existing at all is the love of the entire Godhead taking upon themselves the burden and expense of grace for all eternity.

We see such fragments of the big picture it is difficult for us to visualize the actual story of redemption and it's scope. Like Martha we choke up and quibble or even argue with the Lord or revealed facts from His messengers. She did not want the people to see her dead decaying brother. She wanted to keep the stone in place. Jesus had a different plan, one that moved the stone away using human co-operation and His Father's power after the stone was moved. Human muscles and action did not annul grace, it complimented and prepared the way for grace to do it's available it's intended work.

The situation made a way of availability for God, because none of the involved parties wanted Lazarus to be dead and turning to dirt. No one's conscience and power of choice was being violated. Martha just didn't look at the big picture, but she trusted what she could not see and understand to the Lord she could see. Jesus did not want Lazarus to be a stinky topic of gossip and dead dirt either. He accessed His Father's power through His Father's permission and Martha's real wish was granted in a better fashion than she supposed. That's what grace does, it operates according to God's requirements, following God's plans for it, using human co-operation to prepare the way, and surprises the people with something better than the expected water or sour wine or boiled down raisin juice. God loves to give grace according to His imagination, not our limited stilted plans.

For your consideration:
a wedding feast, where something better than either Earnest & Julio Gallo or Welch's was created by grace and the way prepared for and the aftermath served up by human power to the delight of the guests and families & host. It wasn't science fiction, it wasn't slight of hand, it was real and in this case; grace was drinkable and you could see the rich color and smell the aroma. It's reality and excellence would draw you to the One who had already left the occasion and to the words about Him that His disciples were now telling the crowd, as their first official witnessing efforts as a group. Grace had even planned for their needs of growth too.

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited May 06, 2001).]

Posted By: Durk

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/07/01 06:19 AM

Edward, you're rambling.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/07/01 07:25 AM

Durk,

We're probably working off the same page... but let me ask this question. If in order to "access" grace we must first "accept" it in what way is that not a condition upon recieving grace? Do you see what I mean?

If there were no conditions upon the grace of God - His unmerited favor - who then can be lost? By the way, what is the "favor" that we cannot earn if it isn't pardon and power over sin?

Posted By: Durk

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/08/01 06:31 AM

A good example of the need to define terms in any serious discussion. I understood the term "condition" to mean somethin we had to achieve in order to qualify for grace, a notion which I reject. However, I do agree that we must "do something" in order to access the grace freely offered, 'else all would be saved even without the knowledge of Christ or accepting Him, a position which Scripture does not (IMHO) support.

And yes, I do think we are opperating off the same page, praise the Lord.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/08/01 09:03 PM

Ah, now I see what you were dealing with. Man, if it weren't for words people would be able to communicate, eh? Ha!

I'll be away on business until the 5th of June. So, I'll see ya when I get back. God bless.

Posted By: Durk

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/08/01 10:51 PM

LOL

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/10/04 02:48 AM

I think the following text clearly says that God's grace does not nullify His law:

quote:

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Now what does the above tell us, especially in relation to the Gentiles?

Posted By: Gerry Buck

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/30/01 03:31 PM

Posted By: Andrew Marttinen

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/30/01 10:11 PM

Paul himself typically begins his letters with Grace-type theology and ends them with a string of things to do that clarifies what it means to live under Grace.

The problem is that many "New Testament" Christians are one-verse Christians or they don't read to the end of Paul's letters to see what he's getting at.

------------------
Be glad for all God is planning for you. Be patient in trouble, and always be prayerful. Rom. 12:12 NLT

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/03/01 09:02 PM

But grace is conditional upon obedience, which in turn is conditional upon abiding in Christ. It all comes back to Jesus. Thank you, Lord!

Posted By: Durk

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/04/01 03:46 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Gerry Buck:
To annul something means to put an end to it, to make it void.

Just hair-splitting, really.

Posted By: Durk

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/04/01 03:51 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
But grace is conditional upon obedience, which in turn is conditional upon abiding in Christ. It all comes back to Jesus. Thank you, Lord!

Hi Mike. Welcome back! Can you give me a few references on the above quote, or at least clarify your position. It seems to me that grace is conditional upon acceptance (of what Christ has done.)

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/05/01 08:31 AM

Durk,

Good point. But isn't "accepting Jesus" the beginning of obedience? If we fail to accept Jesus as our personal Saviour what good is grace?

What do you think?

Posted By: Durk

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/05/01 05:47 PM

We must do something to ACCESS this grace, but there are no CONDITIONS to recieving it.

Although I quibble with your first post, I really like your second one. The more I think about it the more sense it makes. Thanks.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/07/01 07:25 AM

Durk,

If there were no conditions upon the grace of God - His unmerited favor - who then can be lost? By the way, what is the "favor" that we cannot earn if it isn't pardon and power over sin?

Posted By: Durk

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/08/01 06:31 AM

And yes, I do think we are opperating off the same page, praise the Lord.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/08/01 09:03 PM

Ah, now I see what you were dealing with. Man, if it weren't for words people would be able to communicate, eh? Ha!

I'll be away on business until the 5th of June. So, I'll see ya when I get back. God bless.

Posted By: Durk

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/08/01 10:51 PM

LOL

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/10/04 02:48 AM

I think the following text clearly says that God's grace does not nullify His law:

quote:

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Now what does the above tell us, especially in relation to the Gentiles?

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/16/04 02:00 AM

Daryl,

I think your question about Romans 6:14 is misleading. Nothing is stated in that text about nullifying the law. That texts indicates the fact that one can be under the law or not under the law.

Just because I’m not under the law does not mean it has been nullified or doesn’t exist for those under it.

Here is what scripture states:

First, Paul indicates there are three types of scenarios:

“19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.

1. Under the OT law (Jews born under the OT law [Gal 4:4])

2. Without the OT law (Gentiles not having the OT law or knowing it [Rom 2:14])

3. Under Christ’s NT law of love (All men who are saved by faith and lead by the spirit [Gal 6:2, 5:18])

Those in category 1 and 2 are both judged as sinners [Rom 2:12].

The OT law only leads those who are under it [Rom 3:19]

True believers are not under the law [Rom 6:14, Gal 3:25]

So based on scripture, the OT law is not removed or nullified. It is doing it jobs to convict the unsaved as sinners to drive them to Christ, because that is the ONLY role for the OT law after the cross [Gal 3:24].

So it’s not that the OT law is gone. It is that it doesn’t speak to or direct the saved. It only functions for the unsaved. This is all supported by the above texts.

So the question would be that if the OT law “speaks” to you, you should be concerned because scripture states that the law only speaks to those under it and those under it are not saved.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/16/04 03:54 AM

The KJV says it this way:

quote:

1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

We have here:

1 - under the law.

2 - without law.

3 - being not without law to God

4 - under the law to Christ.

What do each of these mean?

What are each of these saying?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/16/04 04:09 AM

By the way, Lobo, in what way is my question misleading?

And why do you avoid the question by going on to another text?

That text about the Gentiles seems clear enough to me. Why isn't it clear enough to you?

Why won't you let God's Word speak to your heart?

Why won't you let the Holy Spirit lead you into all truth?

I came from believing that the law was done away with to believing that the law was not done away with.

I came from believing that I was under the law to believing that I am not under the condemnation of the law. Big difference! And a true difference!

I am not going to go back into believing the devil's lie. I am going to continue to believe in God's truth about His law that is for all mankind and not only for the Jews in the same way the Sabbath is for al mankind and not only for the Jews.

Anyway, here is what under the law really means.

First of all, the words are literally under law rather than under the law.

Paul's point is that Christians are not under law as a way of salvation, but under grace.

Law cannot save a sinner, nor can law put an end to sin or its dominion.

Law reveals sin (ch. 3:20), and because of the sinfulness of man, law, as it were, causes transgression to increase (ch. 5:20).

Law cannot forgive sin, nor can law provide any power to overcome it. The sinner who seeks to be saved under law will find only condemnation and deeper enslavement to sin.

Wherever the principle is held that man can save himself by his own works, there is no effective barrier against sin (See Desire of Ages 35, 36).

The Christian does not look for salvation legalistically, as if he could be saved by his own works of obedience (ch. 3:20, 28).

He acknowledges that he is a transgressor of the divine law, that in his own strength he is wholly incapable of fulfilling its requirements, that he justly deserves to be under its condemnation, and surrenders himself through faith in Christ to the grace and mercy of God.

Then, by the grace of God (see on v. 24), his sinful past is forgiven and he receives divine power to walk in newness of life.

When a man is under law, despite his best efforts sin continues to have dominion over him, because the law cannot set him free from the power of sin.

Under grace, however, the struggle against sin is no longer a forlorn hope, but a certain triumph.

The offer to be under grace, thus to have victory over sin, and the enabling power for the attainment of every virtue, have been extended to every one of the descendants of Adam (John 3:16).

But many have blindly or stubbornly chosen to remain under law. Even many who profess an earnest desire to be saved prefer to remain under law, as if they could commend themselves to God and earn salvation by their own obedience to law.

Such was the experience of the Jews, and such is the experience of many professed Christians today, who in their pride of self-righteousness are not willing to acknowledge their own helplessness and to surrender themselves wholly to the mercy and transforming grace of God.

Paul is saying that as long as a man is under law he remains also under the dominion of sin, for law cannot save one from either the condemnation or the power of sin.

But those who are under grace receive not only release from condemnation (Rom. 8:1) but also power to overcome (ch. 6:4). Thus sin no longer will have dominion over them.

That is what under law really means. There is nothing there about the law being done away with.

God's amazing grace doesn't annul the law, His law. Instead, God's amazing grace establishes the law, His law.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/16/04 08:51 PM

quote:

By the way, Lobo, in what way is my question misleading?

You stated that Romans 6:14 is used to say that the OT law is annulled. Now that I look at that again it seems that you were indicating that others use this text to support the annulled viewpoint. So I guess your question is not misleading because you were just the messenger of those who believe something other that what Rom 6:14 really states.

quote:

And why do you avoid the question by going on to another text?

Please re-read my post again. I answered the question and stated that Rom 6:14 does not annul God’s law. But I also explained from Paul’s own writing what he meant by “not under the law”. So how is that avoiding the question?

quote:

That text about the Gentiles seems clear enough to me. Why isn't it clear enough to you?

Are you talking about Romans 2:8-15? If so, my issue would be how gentiles “who do not have the law” would “by nature” or instinctively know about the sabbath or other items of the OT law to just follow them without any instruction?

How would they just know the 6 plus laws that govern the sabbath without someone telling them? The fact is that they wouldn’t. So Paul is not talking about the OT law. He is talking about the Law that Satan and Adam broke. The law that was already convicting man of sin thousands of years before the OT law was given. This is of course God eternal moral law, which was in existence forever. But the OT law was “added”.

“12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.” Rom 5

So Paul states here that Adam sinned WITHOUT breaking a command of the OT law. Why? Because it had not been given; “before the law was given”.

So if the OT law was not in effect, what law did Adam break? God’s eternal moral law.

Paul goes on to say that the OT law was again not in place forever, but it was “added”:

“20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:20

So being added, and not being the law Adam broke, means the OT law cannot be God’s eternal moral law.

So it is God’s eternal moral law that Gentiles can understand by nature and do instinctively, not the OT law.

“15"Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. 16In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 17Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy." Acts 14

So nature was God’s “testimony” or witness. And this is how Gentiles could know there is a God and “by nature” do what the eternal moral law required. And as I have demonstrated above, the eternal moral law did not contain the sabbath. The sabbath was “made” (Mark 2:27) and/or “added” (Rom 5:20).

quote:

Why won't you let God's Word speak to your heart?

Why won't you let the Holy Spirit lead you into all truth?

Why are you judging me Daryl?

“16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” Col 2

I don’t let anyone judge me in regards to sabbaths, as Paul indicates. You should think about that.

quote:

Anyway, here is what under the law really means.

Daryl, that statement, and your judgmental statements above do not sound like you are searching for truth?

I have presented my position and backed it all up with direct biblical support, which you have not addressed with like scripture. Do you think there may be a problem with a doctrine that can only be supported by non-biblical sources?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/16/04 09:00 PM

Lobo,

I think you need to ascertain whether or not you backed it up by your own between the lines interpretations.

It may be that it is you who are reading between the lines than it is me, or some of the other ones posting here.

Those texts about the Gentiles seemed clear to me without reading between the lines.

As far as judging others goes, I guess we will really let the Son of God determine that. All the dirty laundry will come up out of the wash on Judgement Day, therefore, I will retract my judgemental statements and leave it to the Son of God to properly do that.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/16/04 09:19 PM

First Daryl, thank you and I appreciate your retraction.

Next, if I’m reading between the lines, then how would you explain gentiles, “who do not have the law”, doing “by nature” what is required by the law because or their hearts? How would they know?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/16/04 09:32 PM

Romans 2:15 which I also quoted there answers that question, for the law of God was written in those Gentiles hearts, just as He wishes them to be written in our hearts today.

quote:

Romans 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/17/04 02:23 AM

quote:

Romans 2:15 which I also quoted there answers that question, for the law of God was written in those Gentiles hearts, just as He wishes them to be written in our hearts today.

Daryl, how is that done? How can these gentiles “WHO DO NOT HAVE THE LAW” know about the sabbath and have that in their heart? THAT is my question.

Romans 2
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,

So again, how can a gentile who does not have the OT law, which means does not know about it’s requirements, have those requirements “by nature” in their hearts?

Please stop being evasive and answer this question please.

Posted By: Will

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/17/04 02:55 AM

I think there are 3 or 4 threads that have dealt with this already Lobo.. You can use the search feature for this..

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/17/04 03:30 AM

Thanks Will, that is a cop out. I have never just dismissed someone and told them to go read something else. I always answer the question or address the issue. So either you are being rude or you just can’t answer the issue.

Posted By: Will

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/17/04 05:45 AM

Lobo,
Nope.. just use some common sense and search after all you are "searching" for truth right? so let your fingers do the walking.. No need to falsely accuse or make slanderous accusations. Take a deep breath, click the link labelled "Search" and enter your query.. A squirrel can figure that out.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/17/04 06:05 PM

Lobo, I agree that "not under the law" means one of two things. First, we are not obligated to obey the law in own strength. Second, we are not under the condemnation of the law if we are in covenant relationship with Jesus. And the reason we are not under condemnation is because Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, empowers us to live harmony with the law.

The law only condemns law breakers. We cannot obey the law in our own strength, so the law condemns us as law breakers. Actually, the law cannot condemn anyone, only God can do that, but He bases His condemnation on whether we obey or disobey the law. The cannot save us or kill us. Only God saves or kills in judgment.

The Gentiles in Rom 2:13-15 who naturally obey the law of God, though they were ignorant of the law, did not keep the first four commandments. It's impoosible to obey the first four if you've never heard about them. But if innocent unbelievers (i.e. people who have never heard of Jesus) conscientiously obey the last six then God counts that as obeying all ten.

I believe God is able to count them as saved because they demonstrate a willingness to do what is morally right and to resist what is morally wrong. They would excercise the same loyalty if they know about the true God and would obey the first four as readily as the last six. They are saved based one the choices they would have made if they knew all truth.

Posted By: Ikan

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/17/04 06:24 PM

I have to agree with you Mike; well and clearly put.
However, I am sure we will both get heaps of flak over it, starting with our lupine wrangler. Oh well!

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/18/04 07:33 AM

quote:

Lobo, I agree that "not under the law" means one of two things. First, we are not obligated to obey the law in own strength. Second, we are not under the condemnation of the law if we are in covenant relationship with Jesus. And the reason we are not under condemnation is because Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, empowers us to live harmony with the law.

Mike,
I agree with what you have stated, but must ask you why you believe the law given to man is the same as the law Satan broke? Very few of the 10 can apply to angels. So please explain the difference between the eternal moral law of God that ALL created beings are held to and the law that was given to Israel.

Ps – Ikan “lupine wrangler“, very funny.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/18/04 01:39 AM

Lobo, I'm glad we agree. And you ask a very interesting question about other order of beings God has created and the 10 commandments. I'm not sure how it applies to this study though. But I'll attempt an answer.

I agree with Sister White that the law of God was reworded and especially articulated to meet man in his fallen condition. Before the fall the law of God was simple. Jesus said:

Matthew
22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I don't think Satan broke the 10 commandments in heaven, but I do believe he broke the basic principle upon which they are founded - love.

I like the way Sister White worded these thoughts in the following quotes. There's quite a few of them and I hope you don't get tired and decide not to read all of them.

1-17 (Neh. 9:6-15). Father by Side of Son in Giving Law.--When the law was spoken, the Lord, the Creator of heaven and earth, stood by the side of His Son, enshrouded in the fire and the smoke on the mount. It was not here that the law was first given; but it was proclaimed, that the children of Israel, whose ideas had become confused in their association with idolaters in Egypt, might be reminded of its terms, and understand what constitutes the true worship of Jehovah (ST Oct. 15, 1896). {1BC 1103.13}

Adam and Eve Knew the Law.--Adam and Eve, at their creation, had a knowledge of the law of God. It was printed on their hearts, and they understood its claims upon them (MS 99, 1902). {1BC 1104.1}

The law of God existed before man was created. It was adapted to the condition of holy beings; even angels were governed by it. After the fall, the principles of righteousness were unchanged. Nothing was taken from the law; not one of its holy precepts could be improved. And as it has existed from the beginning, so will it continue to exist throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. "Concerning thy testimonies," says the psalmist, "I have known of old that thou hast founded them forever (ST April 15, 1886). {1BC 1104.2}

Law Suited to Holy Order of Beings.--The Sabbath of the fourth commandment was instituted in Eden. After God had made the world, and created man upon the earth, He made the Sabbath for man. After Adam's sin and fall nothing was taken from the law of God. The principles of the ten commandments existed before the fall, and where of a character suited to the condition of a holy order of beings. After the fall, the principles of those precepts were not changed, but additional precepts were given to meet man in his fallen state (3SG 295). {1BC 1104.3}

Worded to Meet Fallen Intelligences.--The law of Jehovah dating back to creation, was comprised in the two great principles, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength. This is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these." These two great principles embrace the first four commandments, showing the duty of man to God, and the last six, showing the duty of man to his fellowman. The principles were more explicitly stated to man after the fall, and worded to meet the case of fallen intelligences. This was necessary in consequence of the minds of men being blinded by transgression (ST April 15, 1875). {1BC 1104.4}

The law of God existed before the creation of man or else Adam could not have sinned. After the transgression of Adam the principles of the law were not changed, but were definitely arranged and expressed to meet man in his fallen condition. Christ, in counsel with His Father, instituted the system of sacrificial offerings; that death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to a victim which should prefigure the great and perfect offering of the son of God (Ibid., March 14, 1878). {1BC 1104.5}

Precepts Given to Guard Decalogue.--In consequence of continual transgression, the moral law was repeated in awful grandeur from Sinai. Christ gave to Moses religious precepts which were to govern everyday life. These statutes were explicitly given to guard the ten commandments. They were not shadowy types to pass away with the death of Christ. They were to be binding upon men in every age as long as time should last. These commands were enforced by the power of the moral law, and they clearly and definitely explained that law (Ibid., April 15, 1875). {1BC 1104.6}

(Isa. 58:13, 14). Every Specification Is God's Character.--The God of heaven has placed a benediction upon them that keep the commandments of God. Shall we stand as a peculiar people of God, or shall we trample upon the law of God and say it is not binding? God might just as well have abolished Himself. In the law every specification is the character of the infinite God (MS 12, 1894). {1BC 1104.7}

Law Denounces Slightest Sin.--God has given His law for the regulation of the conduct of nations, of families, and of individuals. There is not one worker of wickedness, though his act be the lightest and the most secret, that escapes the denunciation of that law (MS 58, 1897). {1BC 1104.8}

Holiness Made Known.--Our duty to obey this law is to be the burden of this last message of mercy to the world. God's law is not a new thing. It is not holiness created, but holiness made known. It is a code of principles expressing mercy, goodness, and love. It presents to fallen humanity the character of God, and states plainly the whole duty of man (MS 88, 1897). {1BC 1104.9}

(John 14:15). Ten Commandments--Ten Promises.--The ten commandments, Thou shalt, and Thou shalt not, are ten promises, assured to us if we render obedience to the law governing the universe. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Here is the sum and substance of the law of God. The terms of salvation for every son and daughter of Adam are here outlined (MS 41, 1896). {1BC 1105.1}

The ten holy precepts spoken by Christ upon Sinai's mount were the revelation of the character of God, and made known to the world the fact that He had jurisdiction over the whole human heritage. That law of ten precepts of the greatest love that can be presented to man is the voice of God from heaven speaking to the soul in promise, "This do, and you will not come under the dominion and control of Satan." There is not a negative in that law, although it may appear thus. It is DO, and Live (Letter 89, 1898). {1BC 1105.2}

Desire of Ages
But turning from all lesser representations, we behold God in Jesus. Looking unto Jesus we see that it is the glory of our God to give. "I do nothing of Myself," said Christ; "the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father." "I seek not Mine own glory," but the glory of Him that sent Me. John 8:28; 6:57; 8:50; 7:18. In these words is set forth the great principle which is the law of life for the universe. All things Christ received from God, but He took to give. So in the heavenly courts, in His ministry for all created beings: through the beloved Son, the Father's life flows out to all; through the Son it returns, in praise and joyous service, a tide of love, to the great Source of all. And thus through Christ the circuit of beneficence is complete, representing the character of the great Giver, the law of life. {DA 21.2}

In heaven itself this law was broken. Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world. {DA 21.3}

The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. {DA 22.1}

Great Controversy
All heaven had rejoiced to reflect the Creator's glory and to show forth His praise. And while God was thus honored, all had been peace and gladness. But a note of discord now marred the celestial harmonies. The service and exaltation of self, contrary to the Creator's plan, awakened forebodings of evil in minds to whom God's glory was supreme. The heavenly councils pleaded with Lucifer. The Son of God presented before him the greatness, the goodness, and the justice of the Creator, and the sacred, unchanging nature of His law. God Himself had established the order of heaven; and in departing from it, Lucifer would dishonor his Maker, and bring ruin upon himself. But the warning, given in infinite love and mercy, only aroused a spirit of resistance. Lucifer allowed jealousy of Christ to prevail, and he became the more determined. {GC 494.2}

God had manifested His abhorrence of the principles of rebellion. All heaven saw His justice revealed, both in the condemnation of Satan and in the redemption of man. Lucifer had declared that if the law of God was changeless, and its penalty could not be remitted, every transgressor must be forever debarred from the Creator's favor. He had claimed that the sinful race were placed beyond redemption and were therefore his rightful prey. But the death of Christ was an argument in man's behalf that could not be overthrown. The penalty of the law fell upon Him who was equal with God, and man was free to accept the righteousness of Christ and by a life of penitence and humiliation to triumph, as the Son of God had triumphed, over the power of Satan. Thus God is just and yet the justifier of all who believe in Jesus. {GC 502.3}

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/18/04 03:18 AM

quote:

I don't think Satan broke the 10 commandments in heaven, but I do believe he broke the basic principle upon which they are founded - love.

Yes, I agree. So to be honest then we can only say that the OT law was based on the precepts of God’s eternal moral law but is not the eternal moral law itself?

So when Gentiles by nature follow the law of God, it has to be the principles of love for man and God and not the specifics of the OT law given to Israel, right?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/18/04 06:05 AM

Lobo,

Did you also read the clearly worded quotes by Ellen G. White that Mike provided?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/18/04 08:13 AM

Lobo, it makes sense that Gentiles who unwittingly live in harmony with the last six commandments are also living in harmony with the eternal moral law. In fact, none of the laws God has required over the years violates the eternal moral law. God could express the moral law in a million ways and all of them would be in harmony with the eternal moral law.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/18/04 08:24 PM

I agree Mike, but I’m not saying that the OT law is in conflict with God’s moral law. I believe it is based on those very principles. However, does that mean its specific requirements are the same?

In other words, I believe the precepts of God’s moral law are love and obedience for God. That it!

Now how that was articulated for Israel or those God worked with was tailored just for them at that time. So as God continued to work with individuals down through time He continued to reveal how he wanted them to fit under the moral law precepts. Then with Israel he gave them even more to the tune of 613 laws. Again, very specific laws for them at that time. This would be called God’s progressive revelation of his will.

Then with the advent of Jesus, God’s last revelation of his will, he moved the focus away from those specific laws for Israel or what had gone before back to the precepts of the moral law. This is why Jesus was hated by the Jews; the law that they were given and was their “birthright” was being removed. So the specific items that made them Jews was no longer important. This is why Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath many times and breaking other commands of the OT law. Because he was living and teaching in accordance with God eternal moral law, not the OT law.

So my point is that while Jesus lived in harmony with the OT law the principles he taught were far and above the moral level of the OT law, they were the eternal moral law. For example, in Mat 5 Jesus takes some items from the law and moves the focus back to the moral law. So the OT law states divorce for any reason was ok under the law, Jesus said only for death or unfaithfulness. That was the original intent of the moral law, but God modified the law given Israel to meet them at the moral level they were at (Matt 19:8).

So my point is, like the example of divorce, the OT law was for those people at that time only. The laws given to Israel and before was a watered-down version of the moral law. The law Jesus revealed was much closer to the eternal moral law and this would be the law that Gentiles could by nature follow.

So here is how it breaks out:

OT Law = Only for Israel and those who lived before them
= Very specific things based on a low moral level
= Designed to bring the persons behavior inline with the law as given
= Pointed to Jesus fulfillment on the cross
= Temporary

NT Law = For all believers
= Global moral principles that can be applied to all situations
= Designed to bring a believers heart inline with Jesus
= Points to a continued relationship with Jesus
= Eternal

So the problem I see is that we are looking back to a law that was designed for a much lower moral level than what Jesus introduced. So we need to follow the most recent revelation of God’s will we have for man and not that oldest. Since God’s works progressively, the newsiest always supersedes what came before.

ps - Yes, Daryl I read them.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/18/04 09:34 PM

Lobo,

You read them, but you don't have any comment on them?

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/19/04 02:16 AM

Ok, you want comments, here they are:

Some of what she states “sounds” ok, meaning I would agree with it, but I have nothing to verify its accuracy to because what she indicates in not mentioned in scripture. So I can neither deny or approve based on scripture. But my own feeling, without scriptural support, is that it makes sense.

Next, I agree that as she stated the OT law was based on God’s eternal moral precepts and those precepts were not bent or broken to give Israel the law. But additional laws were given to meet man at the time in that moral state. So I fully agree with her in this case and that the laws given to Israel were, while maintaining the eternal principles, tailored for their direct benefit at that time and in their current moral state.

Lastly, I do not agree with her assessment of the love for man and God statement by Jesus in Matt 22:34-39.

The assumption that she and you make is that Jesus is referring to only the ten commandments because your doctrines separate them from the rest of the 613 laws. But neither Jesus nor any other Jew ever did that type of separation in practice or doctrine.

So saying that Love for God covers the first 5 commandments and love for man the last 5 is inaccurate because Jesus was referring to the entire 613 laws.

Another issue is that “Love for neighbors” is NOT even literally stated in the ten commandments, but it IS stated in the other 613 laws. This fact alone demonstrates that Jesus was not referring to only the 10 commandments, because he picked a law that was not part of the ten.

Your doctrine tries to fix this problem by making Jesus’ statement symbolic, but that is a poor interpretation of the text because the laws Jesus mentioned and exact quotes from the OT torah law. They are real and literal and not symbolic at all. So making this passage symbolic is poor exegesis.

So in my understanding, EGW’s interpretation of this passage as referring to the first five and second five of the tables of stone is contrary to the facts that they are literal laws that are not literally stated in the ten commandments. So consistent with how the law was used and understood by Jews, Jesus was referring to the entire 613 laws and not just the ten on stone. So he did not mean the first and second five but all 613.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/20/04 12:00 AM

Lobo, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and please don't think what I'm about to say is an attack on you personally, but I cannot agree with you that Jesus violated any of the OT laws. He fulfilled them, yes, but He did not do away with them until after He fulfilled them. During His earthly life He kept them perfectly, maybe not the way the Jewish leaders had perverted them, but certainly the way God originally issued them to the Jews.

I like the way you explained how God issued laws and ordinances unique to the Jews as His chosen people and nation. I agree with you that many laws outlined the life and death of Jesus, and once Jeus fulfilled them they were no longer binding upon mankind.

But not so with the ten commandments. I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with you that Jesus' life and death abolished them. Without the guidance of the ten commandments it's anybody's guess what is and what is not a sin. God just isn't it that arbitrary or elusive.

Your conclusion that the ten commandments are morally deficient is totally inaccurate. There isn't anything not accommodated in them. The idea that Jesus added to them to improve them or to replace them is completely unfounded and unbiblical. The 613 laws you keep referring to are all inherent in ten commandments. In principle they take into consideration every possible aspect of life and death.

Matthew
5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Isaiah
42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make [it] honourable.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/20/04 02:44 AM

quote:

Lobo, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and please don't think what I'm about to say is an attack on you personally, but I cannot agree with you that Jesus violated any of the OT laws. He fulfilled them, yes, but He did not do away with them until after He fulfilled them. During His earthly life He kept them perfectly, maybe not the way the Jewish leaders had perverted them, but certainly the way God originally issued them to the Jews.

Mike, please re-read my post. I stated Jesus kept the OT law perfectly but taught something different. He taught a higher form of morality than the OT law stipulated or required. He raised the moral bar.

quote:

But not so with the ten commandments. I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with you that Jesus' life and death abolished them. Without the guidance of the ten commandments it's anybody's guess what is and what is not a sin. God just isn't it that arbitrary or elusive.

So you think that without the ten commandments the holy spirit could not lead you by your heart to do what it right? If so, how did the Gentiles “by nature” follow God’s moral law when they did not have or know the ten? (Rom 2:14)

Why does Paul state that they are no longer a guide to believer after Christ?

“24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.” Gal 3

Since the believers are led by the spirit are not the ten (Gal 5:18) that is how they learn and grow and they/we do not need the ten. In fact, when Jesus left this earth he told a group of Jews who new the law very well (disciples) that the spirit would come to teach them. So without the law is not as scary as you think because believers are guided by the spirit, not the law.

quote:

Your conclusion that the ten commandments are morally deficient is totally inaccurate. There isn't anything not accommodated in them. The idea that Jesus added to them to improve them or to replace them is completely unfounded and unbiblical. The 613 laws you keep referring to are all inherent in ten commandments. In principle they take into consideration every possible aspect of life and death.

Mike, the difference in us is that when I look at the OT law I see the specific of what IS written as it is written. You however, apply all sorts of symbolic things to it that were never stated in order to incorporate Jesus teaching into the ten. The FACT is that what Jesus stated about the OT law was not written anywhere in the OT law. For example, what was written about divorce was that you could divorce for whatever reason. THAT was the law. Jesus however, stated that that could not be done and ADDED several requirements like only for death and unfaithfulness. You can rationalize this however you want, but the fact is that this was not previously part of the OT law. So that was a change from what WAS given to Israel.

So if what WAS given to Israel was so morally lofty, why did Jesus add to it or change it?

The fact is Mike, that Jesus was the “WORD” of God in the flesh. That means he replaced the law that was their before. HE WAS THE LAW!

Forgive me Mike, and I don’t mean to be harsh, but it seems to me that you want two Lords, the Law and Jesus. But there is only one Lord, Jesus. He and his spirit is all we need. Period! We don’t need a law designed to prophesy the coming of the Messiah when he is here now. We have the real deal.

quote:

Matthew
5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

“one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled”

So when was this Mike? When did Jesus say all would be fulfilled or accomplished?

Jesus predicted it: "31Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.” Luke 18

John acknowledged it while it was happening: “28Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." John 19

The after his death Jesus appeared to his disciples and confirmed what happened: “44He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Luke 24

So it is stated here three times; before, during and after, that the cross would be the place where “all would be fulfilled”.

I think scripture is clear on this Mike.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/21/04 07:08 AM

Lobo, thanx for correcting my misunderstanding of what you posted about Jesus obeying the OT law perfectly. After rereading your post I see where you did indeed say just that. And I agree with you that Jesus never violated any of the OT laws. The Jewish leaders accused Him of sabbath breaking but in reality they were wrong. Jesus may not have kept it according to their perversion of it but kept the sabbath in accordance with God's law.

You're right, once we are familiar with the requirements of the law it isn't as necessary to read them over and over again to know what is expected of us. "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." James 1:25. Yes, we are led of the Spirit, and taught by Him. But He will never lead us or teach us contrary to the law.

John
16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show [it] unto you.

A teacher will always be a teacher. Even though I am no longer setting at the feet of my first grade teacher I am still learning lessons from her today. Wisdom never stops educating us. So too the ten commandments never stop teaching us. It would be a mistake to forget what the law teaches. "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was." James 1:23, 24.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying we should be so law focused that we cannot keep our eyes on Jesus. But Jesus and the law are not mortal enemies. The law does not, in and of itself, threaten our relationship to Jesus. Yes, we can lose sight of Jesus if we become too legalistic, but we cannot blame it on the law. The fault is our own.

Gentiles who obey the law of God naturally, without knowledge of it, are not worshipping the true God intelligently. The passage in Rom 2:13-15 is saying when they obey their conscience God counts this as law keeping. But they are not serving God in exactly the same way genuine Christians do.

Your assumption that the ten commandments are morally deficient implicates God. You said God bowed to the low morals of post-slavery Judaism and gave them a law that met them where they were. But in so saying you are blaming God for the Jews who never rose above this supposedly low level law. How can anybody blame them for rising no higher than the low standard God gave them? The low standard God gave them is to blame which means their low morals is God's fault.

Please show me in Bible where God said, “You can get divorced for any reason whatsoever.” And please don’t try to use Deut 24:1-4 to prove God sanctioned such an idea. That’s not what that passage is saying. The law of God is one law – not ten. If we break one commandment we break all of them. See James 2:10. There isn’t anything Jesus said about law keeping that wasn’t already inherent in the ten commandments. And please show me where I have reduced anything commanded in the Word of God to mere symbolism. I believe everything God commanded the Jews in the OT can be obeyed if not in particular at least in principle in the NT. Not one of the ten commandments in any way pre-figured the first advent of Christ.

I agree with you that Jesus fulfilled everything that predicted His life and death and resurrection after the fact. But nowhere in the Bible does it say the ten commandments were prophecies that would be fulfilled and abolished when Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death. Please explain why you think Jesus’ earthly ministry made of none effect – Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/22/04 09:35 PM

quote:

A teacher will always be a teacher. Even though I am no longer setting at the feet of my first grade teacher I am still learning lessons from her today. Wisdom never stops educating us. So too the ten commandments never stop teaching us. It would be a mistake to forget what the law teaches. "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was." James 1:23, 24.

Mike, that is not what the bible states. The bible states the job of the OT law is the lead unbelievers to Jesus:

“24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.” Gal 3

Clearly the job of the law as shown here by Paul is to lead unbelievers to Jesus by making them aware of their sins (Rom 7:7). Once aware they want forgiveness and come to Jesus to be justified. And as Paul states, once justified the law no longer leads or provides “supervision”. The direction is then provided by the holy spirit.

quote:

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying we should be so law focused that we cannot keep our eyes on Jesus. But Jesus and the law are not mortal enemies. The law does not, in and of itself, threaten our relationship to Jesus. Yes, we can lose sight of Jesus if we become too legalistic, but we cannot blame it on the law. The fault is our own.

No, not enemies at all. The law is a picture and Jesus is the subject of that picture. So it’s just that Jesus IS the law in the flesh. So with him we have no need of the written law, because we have the real thing.

And this transition was predicted by the prophets as well.

“15 Then I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will lead you with knowledge and understanding. 16 In those days, when your numbers have increased greatly in the land," declares the LORD , "men will no longer say, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD .' It will never enter their minds or be remembered; it will not be missed, nor will another one be made.” Jer 3:15-16

Clearly the shepherds referred to here are Jesus (the Great Shepherd) and his disciples.

Here are other texts indicating that Jesus would replace the law:

Luke 16
16"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.

Galatians 3
19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.

So it’s clear from scripture that the law was until Jesus would come to replace it with himself.

quote:

Gentiles who obey the law of God naturally, without knowledge of it, are not worshipping the true God intelligently. The passage in Rom 2:13-15 is saying when they obey their conscience God counts this as law keeping. But they are not serving God in exactly the same way genuine Christians do.

Yes I agree, but that is not the point. The point is that they don’t have to. Their “hearts show” as Paul states that they believe, that is what matters. So God’s counts those Gentiles as believers because of their hearts, nit their actions.

quote:

Your assumption that the ten commandments are morally deficient implicates God. You said God bowed to the low morals of post-slavery Judaism and gave them a law that met them where they were. But in so saying you are blaming God for the Jews who never rose above this supposedly low level law. How can anybody blame them for rising no higher than the low standard God gave them? The low standard God gave them is to blame which means their low morals is God's fault.

First of all neither Jesus nor any Jew ever treated the 10 as more law or different than the rest of the law. My statement related to the entire law, not just the ten you keep singling out.

Next, it is clear that God modified the law downward for Israel, i.e. see divorce. So that fact alone means it is morally deficient, because it was designed to meet man at their level. I don’t blame God for the level of the Jews. God gave them a law that would match their moral level at the time and they still could not meet it. So it’s not that they could raise higher, they could even raise to the level of the watered down law God gave them.

So God tried to meet them at their level and they could not ever manage that. Their own fault, not God’s. But the point is why do we, after Jesus (the Word) has come, need to continue to reach downward to the level? We should be reaching upward to Jesus.

quote:

Please show me in Bible where God said, “You can get divorced for any reason whatsoever.” And please don’t try to use Deut 24:1-4 to prove God sanctioned such an idea. That’s not what that passage is saying. The law of God is one law – not ten. If we break one commandment we break all of them. See James 2:10. There isn’t anything Jesus said about law keeping that wasn’t already inherent in the ten commandments. And please show me where I have reduced anything commanded in the Word of God to mere symbolism. I believe everything God commanded the Jews in the OT can be obeyed if not in particular at least in principle in the NT. Not one of the ten commandments in any way pre-figured the first advent of Christ.

Why can I not use that text, because that is what that text states. How else would you interpret a text that allow MEN only to divorce for the reason of “becoming displeased” with her because he finds something “indecent” about her?

Deut 24
1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house

The term here for indecent is “ervah”, which means “shameful exposure”, Strongs. So I supposed you are saying this means these women are just running around naked, right? I don’t think so. This means things like heads not covered or feet showing, etc.. Also notice that Jesus said this was given to Israel because their hard hearts, that in itself means it was morally less than was originally planned.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/23/04 03:50 AM

Lobo, I hate to do this to you again, but I'm tired. I need a break. I know you do not believe born again believers are at liberty to sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. You have made it abundantly clear that truly converted Christians will live in harmony with the principles of God's eternal moral law of love. You believe the ten commandments are abolished once we are born again, which means one thing in your mind - the sabbath has been abolished.

Believers live harmony with the other nine, but only unbelievers are guilty of breaking the sabbath. But once they are born again they are no longer guilty of breaking the sabbath. Your ideas do not make sense to me, but each person is individually accountable to God in judgment. May God bless us as we continue to study His word and seek to serve Him according to His will.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/24/04 07:12 AM

quote:

Lobo, I hate to do this to you again, but I'm tired. I need a break. I know you do not believe born again believers are at liberty to sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. You have made it abundantly clear that truly converted Christians will live in harmony with the principles of God's eternal moral law of love. You believe the ten commandments are abolished once we are born again, which means one thing in your mind - the sabbath has been abolished.

Mike, why is it that every time I make a point that you have difficulty refuting you want to back out of the conversation?

To clarify, a believer is NOT “at liberty” to sin. The converted Christian will strive to listen to and follow the holy spirit. That is a process, a journey. But the focus is never to live a perfect life in relation to the law, it is to develop the relationship with Jesus. That relationship is the ONLY thing that saves us, period!

As far as the law is, Paul is abundantly clear on that issue, so I will not post all those texts again. But the bottom line is that believers do not need what the law offers, which is condemnation and being sent to Jesus, because we have already gone through that process and are in Jesus. So the law has done its job already if we are in Jesus.

The sabbath is what you seem to always focus on, but since God included it in the rest of the ten on stone it stands or falls with the ten C’s and cannot be separated from them. My focus has never been the sabbath, only that the entire law has little meaning for a believer because they are already a believer and follow the sprit. Again all this is clearly spelled out in scripture.

I personally don’t know how you can say you are in Jesus, believe he really is the WORD made flesh, and still follow after the written law as if Jesus had not come or was not the WORD made flesh. That is like not wanting to look at your wife who live there with you in favor of just looking at a picture of her. Why focus on the picture when you have the real thing? This is a point that no one has yet been able to explain to me.

Posted By: John H.

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/24/04 10:07 AM

I'd look at my wife and the picture of her too. You'd throw the picture away.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/24/04 03:37 PM

Mike.

You wrote:

Believers live harmony with the other nine, but only unbelievers are guilty of breaking the sabbath. But once they are born again they are no longer guilty of breaking the sabbath. Your ideas do not make sense to me, but each person is individually accountable to God in judgment. May God bless us as we continue to study His word and seek to serve Him according to His will.

Unquote.

Lobo has ideas that I see is in harmony with the Gospel (in fact that is my ideas too), but what you said above make sense too.

I my self now think, is the Ten Commandments really for us Gentile’s believers?

Are we asked and commanded to keep and obey the Ten Commandments?

Are we automatically fall under the Ten Commandments’ jurisdiction once we become a believer?

Are we lost if we didn’t believe that what is written on stone tablets is still in effect?

Do we really lost our perspective of what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is evil, what sin is, if we only rely on our faith in Christ and surrender our will to the Spirit?

Is it really important to be under the Ten Commandments jurisdiction and do what is required even it doesn’t save us neither condemn us?

At last, is the Sabbath keeping such an important issue that by neglecting it because we believe that it is only for the Jews and not for us, we would remain constantly under condemnation?

In His love

James S

Posted By: Will

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/25/04 01:29 AM

That's for you to decide James.. The Bible is very clear on what God has inspired the writers to write about.
Some people use verses in Scripture to condemn the Bible such as is the case where homosexuals claim that the Bible is hate literature yet God made Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve. Some people chose to use it where it is convenient others do not. I think Mike has spent a large amount of time studying the topics of the Sabbath,commendments,grace etc with you, and you fully agreed, but it appears you have a change in heart. It is not a change in what Scripture indicates, but as with all of us God has given us a choice.

God Bless,
Will

Posted By: John H.

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/25/04 08:54 AM

This talk about "all we need is the Spirit, and He will show us what's right" -- if that's true, why did God give us any Scripture at all? Why the need for any written Word?

Because God knows that with men "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9.

Men can *think* they're following the promptings of the Spirit of God, when they're actually following Satan. It's everywhere we look these days, and all through history.

"Yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." John 16:2

21 "Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:21-23

The written Word of God, including the law He wrote with His own finger and spoke with His own voice, work together with the convictions and guidance of the Spirit. All are necessary. That's why God gave them all. We ignore His gifts and revelations at our eternal peril.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/26/04 07:17 AM

Lobo, I'm sorry if it seems as though I am running away from one of your so-called irrefutable points. But please rest assured that isn't the case at all. I have answered your objections over and over again, using both the Bible and the SOP, but you believe so firmly Jesus' death abolished the ten commandments that there is nothing more we can talk about regarding this topic.

You continue to accuse me of making the law more important than my relationship with Jesus. Please believe me, that isn't the case at all. Just because I believe Jesus wrote the law in my heart does not mean I believe they are more important than Jesus Himself.

The reason sabbath keeping has become a focus in this study is because of all the commandments that's the only one you teach and believe has been abolished and is no longer required. If you were advocating one of the other commandments has been abolished I would defend that one too. But in reality we all agree that the other nine cannot be ignored or rejected without incurring the wrath of God.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/26/04 07:46 AM

James, whatever we believe about the jurisdiction of the ten commandments doesn't matter so long as we are in relationship with Jesus. The law cannot condemn us while we are abiding in Christ. In fact, the law is merely a witness and testifies whether or not we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. If we live in harmony with the loving principles of God's law we are dead to sin and awake to righteousness. The only way we can do this is if we are connected to Christ.

Our relationship to Jesus has nothing to do with race, creed, gender or nationality. His promises apply to everyone. And they work the same for all of us - whether Jew or Gentile. "For God is no respector of persons." He doesn't save Jews one way and Gentiles another way. We are all saved in the same way - by faith in Jesus. Faith that works by love and purifies the soul works the same way for everyone. Righteousness by faith is righteousness by faith. Plain and simple.

God empowers everyone to live in harmony with the principles of His law in the same way. He writes the same law on the hearts of everyone who is born again and walks in the Spirit and mind of the new man. There is one standard of right and wrong, one Example of obedience and righteousness. Both the law and the Lord witness and testify to the same standard of truth.

Love does not eliminate the law, rather love fulfills the law perfectly - including the sabbath. Without the love of God we cannot fulfill the law of God. Like faith and works, love and law are inseparable.

Romans
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Galatians
5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 John
4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

James
4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Romans
13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/25/04 08:47 PM

quote:

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Paul actually refers to a portion of the 10 Commandments that deals with man's love relationship with man, with our love relationship with one another. If these ones exist, then the ones referring to our love relationship with God must also exist, for unless we first have a love relationship with God, we can't have a proper love relationship with one another.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/25/04 10:00 PM

quote:

I'd look at my wife and the picture of her too. You'd throw the picture away.

Which more accurately reflects who she is in all aspects?

quote:

This talk about "all we need is the Spirit, and He will show us what's right" -- if that's true, why did God give us any Scripture at all? Why the need for any written Word?

God indeed did give us the word:

“1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[it. 6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13children born not of natural descent,[nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1

So are saying John that the “Word” we were given in the form of Jesus Christ is not enough?

quote:

Men can *think* they're following the promptings of the Spirit of God, when they're actually following Satan. It's everywhere we look these days, and all through history.

Men can also think they are follow the Bible, when they are not. Just look at David Karish or other cults. They quote many bible texts. So were they following God?

quote:

The written Word of God, including the law He wrote with His own finger and spoke with His own voice, work together with the convictions and guidance of the Spirit. All are necessary. That's why God gave them all. We ignore His gifts and revelations at our eternal peril.

And yet, who or what did Jesus rely on to teach his disciples really what was going on and what they needed to know?

“25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.” John 14

quote:

quote:

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Paul actually refers to a portion of the 10 Commandments that deals with man's love relationship with man, with our love relationship with one another. If these ones exist, then the ones referring to our love relationship with God must also exist, for unless we first have a love relationship with God, we can't have a proper love relationship with one another.

Daryl, let’s look at more of this passage:

"8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”

I think your statement above is somewhat misleading in that while Paul does quote from some of the laws originally on stone, he also quotes from the others laws by saying "Love your neighbor as yourself”,Which is also an OT law (Lev. 19:18), it just wasn’t originally on stone or one of the ten.

Paul also mentions “and whatever other commandment there may be”, implying he means all the 613 laws.

So the reality is that Paul meant all the laws, not just those originally on stone. So he is not singling out the ten C’s. But means the entire law.

Posted By: Will

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/26/04 12:31 AM

Lobo,
Ironic you didn't mention Jim Jones who was a Baptist preacher with a large church in LosAngeles, but mentioned David Koresh, who was a Branch Davidian which is Shepherd Rod.. David Koresh claimed to be able to open\reveal the seals in the book of Revelation, and there is only 1 person who can do that.. Jesus Christ.

So it appears that even these 2 dead cult leaders they twisted scripture to manipulate those who did not know..

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/26/04 01:54 AM

That is my exact point Will, that having the written “Word” is no guarantee that you will be following God. But based on what Jesus did it seems clear that following the holy spirit has more value than the written word. Not that the bible is worthless, only that it is lifeless without the holy spirit.

I guess you know the Branch Davidian’ were originally SDA’s? At least some where. I knew a guy who was part of the cult but left before it got crazy.

Posted By: Will

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/26/04 02:56 AM

They may have been, but I don't know if that is true, but I do know that Shepherd Rods are Branch Davidians..

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/26/04 09:35 PM

Reposted from page 2:

Lobo, I'm sorry if it seems as though I am running away from one of your so-called irrefutable points. But please rest assured that isn't the case at all. I have answered your objections over and over again, using both the Bible and the SOP, but you believe so firmly Jesus' death abolished the ten commandments that there is nothing more we can talk about regarding this topic.

You continue to accuse me of making the law more important than my relationship with Jesus. Please believe me, that isn't the case at all. Just because I believe Jesus wrote the law in my heart does not mean I believe they are more important than Jesus Himself.

The reason sabbath keeping has become a focus in this study is because of all the commandments that's the only one you teach and believe has been abolished and is no longer required. If you were advocating one of the other commandments has been abolished I would defend that one too. But in reality we all agree that the other nine cannot be ignored or rejected without incurring the wrath of God.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/26/04 10:33 PM

quote:

The reason sabbath keeping has become a focus in this study is because of all the commandments that's the only one you teach and believe has been abolished and is no longer required. If you were advocating one of the other commandments has been abolished I would defend that one too. But in reality we all agree that the other nine cannot be ignored or rejected without incurring the wrath of God.

The problem is that the 9 are repeated many times as sins if not followed in the NT. And also stated as commands in the NT. Yet, that is not the case for the sabbath, which is not mentioned once as a command, and not mentioned by Jesus or other disciples as a sin if not followed either.

So with this background, you tell me how I can treat the sabbath the same way as the other 9, when scriptures doesn’t treat them the same?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/27/04 06:59 AM

Lobo, I am glad you made this point clear. In the past it hasn't been easy to tell whether you believe any of the commandments are still binding today. The way you insist the law ceases to be necessary or functional after we are born again makes it difficult to discern your views on the other nine. Thanx for clarifying that point.

I'm not sure an argument based on absence or omission is valid. I believe something as important as the law requires more clarity and explanation if God really did eliminate physical sabbath keeping as a requirement after the cross or after we are born again.

Can you imagine how much space would have been devoted to such a foundational change to the customs of Israel? Think about it. Look how much time and attention was expended on explaining why circumcision was no longer required. It is very difficult for me to imagine none of the debates were recorded explaining why the sabbath was reduced to merely symbolizing righteousness by faith.

So, the absence of such arguments in the NT strongly imply the sabbath hasn't been changed.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/29/04 04:06 PM

Mike.

You know that my ideas are the same as Lobo in regards with the law, grace and justification.

Indeed I believe that if a believer is led by the Spirit, he would produce fruits of the Spirit that is in harmony with the law whether he is under the law or not, because love as fruit of the Spirit fulfill the 9 commandments.]

But since I accept that Christ prophecy of Sabbath observation as according to the Law still exist after his ascension for he said this words to his disciples alone, then I start to think, whether I too must observe the Sabbath day as according to the Law.

Only, I feel that something is wrong, because if I accept the 4th commandment, I come under the law’s jurisdiction that requires me to do it perfectly. I feel that I, by observing the 7th day Sabbath am trying to suit my self to live righteously and perfect as according to the law. The same would happen if I accept the whole Ten Commandments. Meanwhile I believe that without the law, I still might have a righteous life that qualifies me for heaven when I live by faith and led by the Spirit. I don’t like this, I don’t want that the law become a standard of righteousness for me; I want Jesus as my standard of righteousness.

I can’t help thinking that by coming under the Law, I would judge my manner and behavior as according to the law for the law become my standard of judgment and righteousness, I can’t avoid this. But if Jesus is my standard of living, I don’t have this feeling; I FEEL FREE.

Therefore, I want to comment on your last, is it possible that because Galatians believers were led to accept the law as their standard of judgment and righteousness by false brothers, Paul warned them that circumcision doesn’t matter anymore, the same with Sabbath day as according to Colossians 2:15,16.

If I read Paul’s epistle to the Jew’s believer in Rome and his letter to the Galatians believers in Galatia, I think he was addressing issues differently, which we may not take it as the same.

Maybe, because the law was given to Israel, they remain under the law even after his ascension, but Gentiles believers remain not under the law as it was before his death. Therefore, Sabbath issue and the law was still in effect for Jews only (Romans 3:31), but for the Gentiles it is not an issue (Galatians 3:21-25).

What do you think?

In His love

James S.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/29/04 08:55 PM

quote:

I'm not sure an argument based on absence or omission is valid. I believe something as important as the law requires more clarity and explanation if God really did eliminate physical sabbath keeping as a requirement after the cross or after we are born again.

Can you imagine how much space would have been devoted to such a foundational change to the customs of Israel? Think about it. Look how much time and attention was expended on explaining why circumcision was no longer required. It is very difficult for me to imagine none of the debates were recorded explaining why the sabbath was reduced to merely symbolizing righteousness by faith.

First off Mike, you are making an assumption here that the OT law was given to Gentiles in any form, and that just isn’t the case. The only place where even some of it was given is Acts 15. In this chapter the Disciples and Epistles talk over what of the OT law the Gentiles should be required to follow. And after that discussion they required: “abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood”. The sabbath was even mentioned in verse 21, but was not included in the list. Notice that verse 28 states that anything beyond these four things was considered a “burden”. Also notice that it had the holy sprits blessing in that same verse.

So from a scripture perspective, these are the only requirements required of Gentiles from the OT law. Other moral laws are also mentioned later in the NT, but the sabbath is never mentioned.

Next, your statement about the sabbath and circumcision implies that you believe Israel and the NT disciples felt that the Sabbath was of more importance than circumcision. Well, I believe that assumption is incorrect. Circumcision was considered more important than the sabbath.

“21Jesus said to them, "I did one miracle, and you are all astonished. 22Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a child on the Sabbath. 23Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath? 24Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." John 7

Jesus here states that Israel is circumcising a child on the sabbath, which technically breaks the sabbath, in order to not break the law of circumcision which states a child must be circumcised on the eighth day (Lev 12:3).

So Jesus states what they had been doing and then affirms that that practice is ok by saying “if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath”.

So this text is huge in that it shows that circumcision not only had more value to the Jews, but that fact was confirmed as being correct by Jesus.

So your assumption that dropping the sabbath would raise more “stink” among the Jews than circumcision is inaccurate as circumcision was more important to Jews and Jesus than the sabbath.

Posted By: John H.

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/29/04 09:20 PM

quote:
So from a scripture perspective, these are the only requirements required of Gentiles from the OT law.

So by that I guess you're saying that from a Scripture perspective it was okay for the Gentiles to steal, murder, dishonor their parents, covet, things like that? That's the logical conclusion of your statement.

quote:
Other moral laws are also mentioned later in the NT, but the sabbath is never mentioned.

Au contraire. Hebrews 4:9 says,

"There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God."

We've already been over this in the "Truth about the Sabbath" topic. The Greek word translated "rest" here means literally, "a keeping of the seventh-day sabbath," so that a literal translation of Hebrews 4:9 would read, "There remaineth therefore a keeping of the seventh-day sabbath to the people of God."

quote:
Jesus here states that Israel is circumcising a child on the sabbath, which technically breaks the sabbath...

It does no such thing. Jesus wasn't using the circumcision rite as performed on the sabbath to say that it "technically breaks the sabbath," but instead to show that some things men might consider as work are okay to be performed on the sabbath, since they're the type of work that's part of God's holy service.

Similarly, the priests did more work on the sabbath day than on any other day of the week; but it was work performed in connection with the temple service, and so was not a breaking of the sabbath commandment. (Matthew 12:5)

God states that the work performed on the sabbath to honor Him is in keeping with the sabbath commandment. Isaiah 58:13,14 says

13 "If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on My holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour Him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

And Jesus said,

"It is lawful to do well on the sabbath days." Matthew 12:12.

Doing God's work (and that includes the rite of circumcision, for the Jews in Christ's time) on the sabbath was not and is not a violation, technical or otherwise.

It's also absolutely ludicrous to claim that "circumcision was more important to Jews and Jesus than the sabbath."

The circumcision requirement was done away with at the cross. The sabbath commandment was not. The sabbath commandment is in the heart of the Ten Commandments. It was spoken by the voice of God at Sinai, written by the finger of God in stone, and placed inside the ark of the covenant, which rested in the Most Holy Place in the temple. The rite of circumcision had no such status. It was important, yes, but not as important as one of the Ten Commandments.

Paul wrote,

"Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God." 1 Corinthians 7:19

That verse right by itself shows that the Commandments supercede the rite of circumcision, both in importance and endurance through time.

Jesus knew this too; it was His Spirit Who inspired Paul to write this passage.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/30/04 01:54 AM

quote:

So by that I guess you're saying that from a Scripture perspective it was okay for the Gentiles to steal, murder, dishonor their parents, covet, things like that? That's the logical conclusion of your statement.

Not sure why you stated this John, because you just answered it with your second quote of what I wrote. The other 9 moral laws are repeated in the NT for all believers.

quote:

Au contraire. Hebrews 4:9 says,

"There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God."
We've already been over this in the "Truth about the Sabbath" topic. The Greek word translated "rest" here means literally, "a keeping of the seventh-day sabbath," so that a literal translation of Hebrews 4:9 would read, "There remaineth therefore a keeping of the seventh-day sabbath to the people of God."

I’m sure people that don’t know what Hebrews 4 actually states will just take what you have posted at face value, but we know better don’t we John.

The actual Greek word used in this text is “sabbatismos”, which according to Stongs means; “a keeping sabbath, or the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians”. That is a direct quote from Storngs.

So we now see that John took liberties in saying that it was the “seventh-day” sabbath that was being referred to.

But the fact is that nowhere else in scripture is the term “Rest” or “seventh-day sabbath” come from the word “sabbatismos”. So based on usage, that would mean that it is highly unlikely that “sabbatismos” means 7th day sabbath.

Now if we actually look at the context, something John appears to have missed, we see that it cannot mean the 7th day sabbath. Let’s look at this text in context to see what it states:

“4And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." 6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.”

So we must then ask John how the author can be referring to the 7th day sabbath when it is stated as “today” and “another day” other than the 7th-day sabbath mentioned in verse 4?

So since the Greek would used here for rest “sabbatismos” is not translated “seventh-day” and is not used for the sabbath in any other place in scripture, and the day in question is called “today” and “another day”, it seems very clear, based on good exegesis, that this “rest” in Hebrews 4 is clearly not the 7th day sabbath.

Posted By: John H.

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/30/04 04:49 AM

quote:
Not sure why you stated this John, because you just answered it with your second quote of what I wrote. The other 9 moral laws are repeated in the NT for all believers.

Well if that was your intent, you contradicted yourself within the selfsame paragraph. You did say, after all,

quote:
these are the only requirements required of Gentiles from the OT law.

I was going on the fact that you've stated that you somehow think that the repetition of 9 of the 10 commandments in the New Testament constitute Jesus' law, which has nothing to do with OT law, in your view; though they are of course identical. Just one of many confusing and illogical conclusions you've tried to push on the people here.

As for Hebrews 4:9, the word "sabbatismos" in 1st-century Greek has been conclusively shown to mean "a keeping of the seventh-day sabbath." That's how contemporary Greek secular writers used the term. 1st-century Greek is 1st-century Greek, whether in the Bible or outside it.

quote:
it seems very clear, based on good exegesis...

It's become pretty obvious that you don't know what "good exegesis" is. So you might as well stop throwing around the term. Good exegesis doesn't involve private interpretation and glaring bias.

Posted By: Will

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/30/04 05:27 AM

What law or laws did God's grace annul? I know that there are laws that have been done away with. Any thoughts?
God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/30/04 09:13 PM

quote:

Well if that was your intent, you contradicted yourself within the selfsame paragraph. You did say, after all,

quote:

these are the only requirements required of Gentiles from the OT law.

That’s true John, I was trying to make a distinction between the universal moral precepts (repeated in the NT) and the OT law given to Israel. I know those repeated in the NT are in some form from the OT as well, but not killing someone has different moral implications than eating blood.

Maybe they are the same, but that is why I said that.

quote:

I was going on the fact that you've stated that you somehow think that the repetition of 9 of the 10 commandments in the New Testament constitute Jesus' law, which has nothing to do with OT law, in your view; though they are of course identical. Just one of many confusing and illogical conclusions you've tried to push on the people here.

They are the same precepts, but the OT law stated nothing about how one thinks, but Jesus did. Check Matt 5 and you will see how Jesus raised the bar on the law from just behavior to intent and thought. So in essence, Jesus' law is focused on thoughts, not deeds. And the OT law focuses on deeds, not thoughts.

THAT is the difference.

quote:

As for Hebrews 4:9, the word "sabbatismos" in 1st-century Greek has been conclusively shown to mean "a keeping of the seventh-day sabbath." That's how contemporary Greek secular writers used the term. 1st-century Greek is 1st-century Greek, whether in the Bible or outside it.

You are welcome to your opinion John, but that is NOT how Greek lexicons translate the word. In addition, that translation is contrary to the context which states that the sabbath or rest in questions was “Today” and “another day” than the 7th day. So you can believe what you want, but contextually your explanation is inaccurate.

I also noticed that you did not address in your post how it could be the 7th day when “Today” and “another day” was used to describe this rest? Maybe because you can’t?

As for exegesis, I have addressed the context of the passage and you have not. So it should be clear to unbiased readers who understands the process of exegesis and who doesn’t.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/30/04 10:34 PM

quote:

What law or laws did God's grace annul? I know that there are laws that have been done away with. Any thoughts?
God Bless,
Will

Great question Will, here is what I have been lead to believe.

1. The new covenant is NOT like the old covenant law:

Jeremiah 31:31-32
"I will make a new covenant...NOT like to covenant that I made with their fathers when I took them out of Egypt."

2. Upon Jesus Christ's death and resurrection the new covenant was ratified. Romans 7 makes it clear that under this new covenant we are:

Romans 7:1-6
"released from the law" v. 2, "dead to the law through the body of Christ" v. 4, and "Delivered from the law" v. 6

Some may ask which law Paul was referring to? Paul makes that clear in the very next verse (v 7):

Paul states; “For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said 'Thou shall not covet." (Compare to Exodus 20:17 & I Tim. 1:6-11)

So Paul was talking about the entire OT law including the tables of stone which 'Thou shall not covet” is command number 10.

3. 2 Cor 3:1-18 contrasts the OT covenant law with the NT covenant law:

Old Covenant
"on tables of stone" v. 3
"the letter kills" v. 6
"was glorious" v.7
"was passing away" v.14
"ministry of death and condemnation" v. 7,9

New Covenant
"on the heart" v. 3
"the Spirit gives life" v.6
"much more glorious" v. 11
"remains" v.11
"Ministry of righteousness" v.9

3. So you may say; “If the Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant what about keeping the Commandments of God? as we read in Rev 12:17 and John 14:15”?

I John 3:22-24
"And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him."

So even without the OT covenant law we can keep the commandments of God as mentioned in Rev 12 by following 1 John 3:22-24. Notice that it was John who wrote both these books. So the term “commandments of God” in rev 12 does not mean the OT covenant law.

So I think this answers your question Will as to what law was removed. It was the entire OT covenant law, which was replaced by the NT covenant law. .

Posted By: Will

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/31/04 01:02 AM

Hi Lobo,
What differences are between the Old Testament Laws and the New Testament Laws?

YOu stated:

quote:

Paul states; “For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said 'Thou shall not covet." (Compare to Exodus 20:17 & I Tim. 1:6-11)
So Paul was talking about the entire OT law including the tables of stone which 'Thou shall not covet” is command number 10.

Paul didn't state that they were done away with. It is much like me wanting to make a sacrifice for my sins by making an altar and killing a lamb without blemish, so since Paul says that this is how he knew what sin was then there is something else that changed and not the 10 commandments.

There is something rather specific changed from the Old Testament of Jesus Christ in the New Testament of Jesus Christ. What are they?

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/31/04 03:18 AM

quote:

What differences are between the Old Testament Laws and the New Testament Laws?

I already posted that in the last post, from Paul:

2 Cor 3:1-18 contrasts the OT covenant law with the NT covenant law:

Old Covenant
"on tables of stone" v. 3
"the letter kills" v. 6
"was glorious" v.7
"was passing away" v.14
"ministry of death and condemnation" v. 7,9

New Covenant
"on the heart" v. 3
"the Spirit gives life" v.6
"much more glorious" v. 11
"remains" v.11
"Ministry of righteousness" v.9

quote:

Paul didn't state that they were done away with. It is much like me wanting to make a sacrifice for my sins by making an altar and killing a lamb without blemish, so since Paul says that this is how he knew what sin was then there is something else that changed and not the 10 commandments.

No, Paul didn’t state in that text that the law was done away with, but he did in others:

Colossians 2
14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[6Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Ephesians 2
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

2 Corinthians 3
7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Posted By: Will

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/31/04 03:25 AM

Hmm... Still not the answer I am thinking of that is in Scripture, and not even close as those verses have been used and abused by you many times.. I would think that someone with such a high caliber of Biblical study would have been able to pinpoint this one rather easily.

Here I will give you another hint.
What is the difference between the New Testament & the Old Testament covenant.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/31/04 08:58 PM

Will,

The texts I posted are accurate and appropriate for this conversation. They do support my points. However, if you have something on your mind, just come out and say it?

To answer your question, there are many differences between the covenants, and there was more than just the old and new. The biblical fact is that God has always dealt with man by making these “agreements” to clearly outline the expectations of man and the rewards involved. Every covenant given by God in scripture has three stipulations; a promise by God, a condition that man must fulfill, and a sign to seal the agreement.

Here are the major covenants given in scripture and there stipulations:

ADAM
Genesis 3:15
Original Promise
All Covenants are structured
* Promise
* Condition
* Sign

NOAH
Genesis 9:8-17
Promise—Never to destroy the earth by flood (Genesis 9:8-11,15)
Condition—Unconditional
Sign—Rainbow (Genesis 9:12-16)

ABRAHAM
Genesis 15-17 (Everlasting)
Promise—Father of Multitudes (Genesis 15:1-5)
Condition—Faith: Abraham believed (Genesis 15:6)
Sign—Circumcision (Gen. 17:10-13)

MOSES
Promise—A Great Land (Exodus 2:24-25)
Condition—Obedience (Exodus 19:7-8)
Sign—The Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-18 & Exodus 20:8-11)

NEW COVENANT OF JESUS
Promise - Eternal Life to all who believe (Jn 3:16)
Condition - Faith (Rom 3:21-28)
Sign - The Lord's Supper (I Cor 11:25, Luke 22:20, Mark 14:24)

So Will, I assume you are referring to the Mosaic covenant when you say “old”. So if you are asking what the difference is between the Mosaic covenant and the NT covenant, we first have to look at the stipulations of the two covenants to compare.

PROMISE:
The promise for the Mosaic covenant law was that Israel would gain the promised land, and the promise for the NT covenant is eternal life for all who believe.

CONDITION:
The condition of the Mosaic covenant was strict obedience, and for the NT covenant it is faith.

SIGN:
And the sign of the Mosaic covenant was the 7th day sabbath, and the sign of the NT covenant is the Lord’s supper.

So Will, based on how God gave the covenants and the stipulations of those covenants, these are the major differences.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/31/04 09:39 PM

James, I can appreciate the struggle you are experiencing as you wrestle with new light. Many of God's children have gone through the same thing. You are in my prayers.

You ask a very good question. Thank you. Does God require the Jews and Gentiles to obey different laws and standards? I believe it is obvious in the Bible that God does indeed have different expectations of Jews and Gentiles (or unbelievers) and Christians. In judgment He will base our eternal destiny on the light we received and/or rejected. Heaven and the New Earth will be full of people who never heard the name of Jesus.

However, I do not believe God's eternal law of love has been changed since the death of Jesus. The law is the same both sides of the cross. In the law is expressed God's ultimate will for mankind - irrespective of race and religion. God is no respector of persons. Our happiness and peace of mind are linked to how we relate to the law.

If we live in harmony with sin we are miserable. Lawbreaking is the root cause of unhappiness whether we realize it or not. Please don't over look this point. We were created to experience peace and happiness living in harmony with God's law of love. Any other way of living results in unhappiness and discontentment. We sense a void or emptiness when we sin. And we suffer these things whether or not we understand why.

Ignorance cannot protect us from the results of sinning. If it were possible to sin without suffering the consequences of sin then it would prove that Satan's accusations about God are right. But the results of sin are not arbitrary or selective. They are based on natural law. We simply were not designed to sin with impunity. Like a diesel engine was not designed to run on gasoline so too we were not engineered to run on sin. Sin is the cause of all unhappiness and unrest - and it doesn't matter if we are sinning out of ignorance.

Nine out of ten commandments clearly agree with God's eternal law of love. None of us here disagree with this conclusion. If we knowingly or unknowingly make choices contrary to anyone of these nine commadments we will suffer the consequences of our choices. It's a natural law we cannot escape or evade.

True, we cannot obey the law of God without the grace of God. In order to obey any of God's law, beginning immediately after the fall, mankind has had to rely on the power of the Holy Spirit. Obedience is the fruit of faith. And not any ordinary kind of faith. The type of faith that enables us to cooperate with the Holy Spirit and enjoy obedience is faith that works by love and purifies the soul.

The faith that makes it possible for us to live in harmony with one of the commadments is the same faith that enables us to live in harmony with all of them. The faith by which we obey the first commandment is the same faith that enables us to obey the fifth and so on. Not one ounce of obedience we enjoy in the Holy Spirit is possible without Him. None of it has anything to do with our unaided abilities.

The faith that enables us to resist even the smallest temptation is the same faith that empowers us to resist all temptations. God has promised He will not allow us to be tempted above His ability to empower us to resist it unto His honor and glory. Thus obedience is not impossible. In Christ, by the grace of God, we may enjoy the fruits of obedience all the time.

Sabbath keeping is the same thing. it doesn't depend on our unaided abilitites. Whether or not we obey or disobey the sabbath depends on if we are connected to Christ. There is no such thing as partial sabbath keeping. We either keep it perfectly or we are guilty of breaking it. Again, it doesn't depend on our strengths of weaknesses.

If you discover that God desires to empower you to live in harmony with all ten of his commandments then you need not worry about whether you can keep the sabbath perfectly or not. It doesn't depend on you alone. God will empower you to obey the sabbath the same as the other nine commandments. You cannot obey the sabbath or any of the commandments without the Holy Spirit. Obeying the sabbath perfectly is a gift the same as any other form of obedience.

God offers this kind of power to both Jews and Gentiles. The same power is rich unto all who believe.

Posted By: Will

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 03/31/04 10:32 PM

Hi Lobo,
What came to mind immediately was that the New Testament is the shedding of the blood of Christ for the remission of sins.

quote:

Matthew 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The Old Testament of Jesus Christ was the remission of sins by the sacrifice of goats, sheep, doves, and if you were really super poor some grain was acceptable as well.
The atonement of sins in the Old Testament was mediated by the High Priest, and in the New Testament we have a mediator and High Priest interceding on our behalf and reconciling us to God through His blood and this is Jesus Christ.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/01/04 02:26 AM

quote:

Nine out of ten commandments clearly agree with God's eternal law of love. None of us here disagree with this conclusion. If we knowingly or unknowingly make choices contrary to anyone of these nine commadments we will suffer the consequences of our choices. It's a natural law we cannot escape or evade.

I agree Mike, but would also add that after the cross it is the precepts behind these laws given to Israel that we are really held accountable to, as Paul states, “not the letter but the spirit” of the law. So the specifics of each law as written is really not as important as the intent behind them, which is love, as Mike mentioned.

The reason I say this is because our world is different than it was when those laws were given. We have different moral issues that are not specifically addressed in those laws as written. So if we adhere to them strictly we could still be violating a moral law. A better approach is to look at them from a global moral perspective and determine if our actions are out of love for man or God. If they are then they are consistent with God’s moral law. If not, then they are in violation of that law.

This is why I have stated in the past that the OT law is morally remedial, because it is a specific list, which will always take a back seat to moral precepts or concepts, which get to the heart of any issue and cannot be manipulated like a specific list can be.

quote:

True, we cannot obey the law of God without the grace of God. In order to obey any of God's law, beginning immediately after the fall, mankind has had to rely on the power of the Holy Spirit. Obedience is the fruit of faith. And not any ordinary kind of faith. The type of faith that enables us to cooperate with the Holy Spirit and enjoy obedience is faith that works by love and purifies the soul.

The faith that makes it possible for us to live in harmony with one of the commadments is the same faith that enables us to live in harmony with all of them. The faith by which we obey the first commandment is the same faith that enables us to obey the fifth and so on. Not one ounce of obedience we enjoy in the Holy Spirit is possible without Him. None of it has anything to do with our unaided abilities.

True! But, we are not saved by these actions and they do not win us any points with God. Following the spirit and the resulting change in heart and mind is a natural process that is the result of our faith. Since Jesus has already kept the law perfectly, it is not the goal of the spirit to have us repeat what Jesus did, because then we would not need him. No, the goal of our faith is the relationship in and of itself. The side-effects of the relationship are secondary and deferent from person to person depending on their own spiritual walk.

Remember, what does Jesus say to the lost at the end? “I don’t know you”. So knowing Jesus through his spirit is what it is all about and the goal in and of itself. Sin and the law are secondary.

quote:

The faith that enables us to resist even the smallest temptation is the same faith that empowers us to resist all temptations. God has promised He will not allow us to be tempted above His ability to empower us to resist it unto His honor and glory. Thus obedience is not impossible. In Christ, by the grace of God, we may enjoy the fruits of obedience all the time.

I agree again. However, again, the goal is not to overcome any particular sin, but to deepen the relationship. We don’t need to overcome what Jesus has already beaten. So the sin issue really is one of focus; do I take my eyes off the relationship and do my own thing, or do I keep that focus and move forward in faith. Also note that you can take your eyes of Jesus to focus on beating sin. So focusing on your sin can also be a distraction from your relationship with Jesus.

So again, the goal is to strengthen the relationship and faith, not that sin. In fact, we give sin way to much attention. It has already been defeated! We don’t need to fight a battle that has already been won!

quote:

Sabbath keeping is the same thing. it doesn't depend on our unaided abilitites. Whether or not we obey or disobey the sabbath depends on if we are connected to Christ. There is no such thing as partial sabbath keeping. We either keep it perfectly or we are guilty of breaking it. Again, it doesn't depend on our strengths of weaknesses.

And of course I disagree with this as the sabbath doesn’t meet the biblical criteria to be a moral law. Let me explain. None of the other 9 laws had to be made for man. They already existed in some form. For example, killing someone has always been immoral even before the world was created. So that law would apply to angels and other created beings for all times. But Jesus stated the sabbath was “made”. That fact means it did not exist before that time. And if it didn’t exist before that time it cannot be an eternal moral law. In addition, outside of mankind or creation the sabbath has no meaning.

So the sabbath was a created law for Israel, and Mike believes for man. But in either case, it was made and was not always in existence, which means it cannot be an eternal moral law of God’s like the other 9.

quote:

If you discover that God desires to empower you to live in harmony with all ten of his commandments then you need not worry about whether you can keep the sabbath perfectly or not. It doesn't depend on you alone. God will empower you to obey the sabbath the same as the other nine commandments. You cannot obey the sabbath or any of the commandments without the Holy Spirit. Obeying the sabbath perfectly is a gift the same as any other form of obedience.

I agree with that also James. If you are truly led by the spirit to follow the sabbath you need to go where the spirit leads.

Will, yes the sacrificial system was also part of the mosaic covenant law and stopped with Jesus ascending to the temple in heaven with his own blood to be our sacrifice. He now functions as the high priest for new believers to receive forgiveness and grace. It is very beautiful if you think about it.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/01/04 03:38 AM

Lobo, thank you for that well thought out post. I very much appreciate the time and effort you put into your posts. It makes studying the Bible with you a pleasure. Again, thank you.

You raised an interesting point about whether or not the ten commandments are limited. But are you sure modern immorality is not covered by them? Love is the principle of all the laws of God. What can we possibly think, do or say today that is not covered by the ten commandments? Please list some specific examples we can study together. Thank you.

Matthew
22:35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,
22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Lobo wrote – “True! But, we are not saved by these actions and they do not win us any points with God.”

I’ve noticed you mention this often whenever something is said about the Holy Spirit empowering us to experience the joy of obedience, so please help me out here. What did I write in my last post that gave you the impression I believe our works earn or merit salvation. The reason why I’m asking for your help on this issue is because I desperately do not want to leave people with the idea I believe such a lie. Thank you.

Lobo wrote – “Since Jesus has already kept the law perfectly, it is not the goal of the spirit to have us repeat what Jesus did, because then we would not need him.”

You also mention this point regularly. But I’ve never quite understood it. Please help me here too. Are you saying the Holy Spirit is incapable of empowering us to live in harmony with the loving principles of the law? If not, why not? Is sinful behaviour excusable? Is so, why so? Sinning is the cause of all unrest and unhappiness. Are we doomed to a life of sinning? If so, why so?

Where in the Bible does it say we cannot cease sinning? I like what you wrote about sin being already defeated and keeping our eyes on Jesus. But why do you also insist we cannot cease from sinning? Are you also saying we cannot keep our eyes on Jesus consistently? Is it possible to stay connected to Jesus every time we are tempted? Or, is taking our eyes off Jesus inevitable?

Your argument that the sabbath commandment isn’t a moral law baffles me. Are you sure this is true? If God commands us to do something why wouldn’t it be considered a moral obligation? Where in the eternal moral law of love is anything commanded? The requirement to love God and man equally did not come into existence until after man was created. Yes, to love God has existed from eternity, but what about the part where we must love man too?

You mentioned that the sabbath commandment was the only one of nine that did not exist before the creation of mankind. Are you sure? What about the 5th and 7th? Those seem to be specific to the human race. And what about the fact if we break one we break them all? How is that possible?

I realize I asked a lot of questions just now, but thank you in advance for answering them. God bless.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/01/04 05:26 PM

Mike & Lobo.

Many thanks for both of your posts, I really enjoy reading it even I have such a little time to study it deeper. It seems to me both of you are right, the only way to decide which is truth is to compare it with the bible and be led by the Spirit. I must really pray deep and spare more time to study this.

Now, I want to ask you Mike, what you think of ‘the SIGN OF THE BEAST”?

Is it a theology or doctrine or is it something else? How are people marked with this sign?

Once I believed it is the observation to the 1st day of the week, later I think is it the observation to the 7th day of the week, now I think it is a belief that believers are qualified for heaven when they obey the law perfectly (righteousness by works).

Thanks for the reply.

In His love

James S

Posted By: Will

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/01/04 08:46 PM

James,
Naturally no one gets to heaven by working his\her way there. Where do you get that idea from?

God Bless,
Will

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/01/04 09:12 PM

quote:

You raised an interesting point about whether or not the ten commandments are limited. But are you sure modern immorality is not covered by them? Love is the principle of all the laws of God. What can we possibly think, do or say today that is not covered by the ten commandments? Please list some specific examples we can study together. Thank you.

Mike, is abortion ok under the ten C’s? Does it cover something that is not born yet? Is that technically a life yet?

You see, when you say “cover” you really mean in principle. But when I say cover I mean as LITERAL written. So AS WRITTEN I believe the ten C’s are too limited. But you are correct, if we use the concepts they are based on we can cover everything.

So if we can and do use the precepts, what do we need the specific limited law for anyway if we are not using them are written?

quote:

I’ve noticed you mention this often whenever something is said about the Holy Spirit empowering us to experience the joy of obedience, so please help me out here. What did I write in my last post that gave you the impression I believe our works earn or merit salvation. The reason why I’m asking for your help on this issue is because I desperately do not want to leave people with the idea I believe such a lie. Thank you.

It was just the fact that you didn’t clarify you statement about following God’s law with the fact that it will never save us. I think when discussing the law we have to make that point because humans are all to ready to try and work their way into heaven. It was and has been an issue for every person who has ever come to know the truth of salvation by faith.

quote:

Are you saying the Holy Spirit is incapable of empowering us to live in harmony with the loving principles of the law? If not, why not? Is sinful behaviour excusable? Is so, why so? Sinning is the cause of all unrest and unhappiness. Are we doomed to a life of sinning? If so, why so?

No, it is capable, it’s just not the goal. It’s one of focus. If you focus on beating your sin or just commit sin, what are you doing? Looking at sin and not at Jesus. You can’t look at your sin and Jesus at the same time.

So it is not that the spirit can’t leads us into a sinless position. It’s that that should not be our goal or focus. If it is than we are not focusing on the relationship.

Make sense?

quote:

Your argument that the sabbath commandment isn’t a moral law baffles me. Are you sure this is true? If God commands us to do something why wouldn’t it be considered a moral obligation? Where in the eternal moral law of love is anything commanded? The requirement to love God and man equally did not come into existence until after man was created. Yes, to love God has existed from eternity, but what about the part where we must love man too?

The sabbath was a random day chosen by God. No moral meaning in and of itself. This is not true for the other commandments. They all relate to concepts of love. Sure we can say God wants us to keep the sabbath so we show love for him by doing that. But, that meaning was implied to the day and not an inherent quality of that day. In other words, it is symbolic. The entire meaning behind the sabbath is symbolic. What is symbolic about the other 9 commandments? Is it symbolic to not kill someone? No!

So the morality of the sabbath was “added” to the day and is symbolic. But the morality of the other 9 is inherent to them and literal.

Ps – Good luck James! Follow the holy spirit and you can’t go wrong!

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/01/04 11:22 PM

James, I agree with your new observations regarding the mark of the beast. It symbolizes people who are attempting to earn salvation and a place in heaven through self-righteous works and by obeying the law outside a saving relationship with Jesus. Going along with the Sunday Laws during the final crisis is the epitome of righteousness by works. The only way we can truly experience the joy of Spirit-powered obedience is by walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. We must stay connected to Jesus at all times.

But even our Spirit-powered good works do not earn us a place in heaven. What Jesus accomplished for us on the cross is the only thing that counts toward our salvation. We cannot work our way to heaven, but none of us will be there if we refuse to allow heaven to work its way in us. If we cling to any known sin, if we refuse to give it up and allow the Holy Spirit to fill us with the fruits of the Spirit, then our choices will surely disqaulify us to sit with Christ in heavenly places.

2 Thessalonians
1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:
1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/01/04 11:50 PM

Lobo, I believe the ten commandments forbid all forms of murder - including murderous thoughts and feelings. Is abortion murder? Absolutely. What if Mary had gotten an abortion? Yes, in principle, if not in detail, the ten commandments accommodate every possible form of sin. This doesn't mean we are at liberty to disregard the details. On the contrary, the details make it possible to apply the underlying principles to situations not specifically named.

I agree with you that we should not be sin centered or even focused on righteousness. Jesus must be the center of our focus at all times. And I also agree with you that Holy Spirit is more than capable of empowering us to cease sinning. But I disagree you that He refuses to do it. It doesn't make sense that the Holy Spirit is able to set us free but chooses not to. I can imagine the Devil having a heyday with that idea.

I don't feel like you adequately addressed the moral implications of the sabbath commandment or the fifth and seventh commandments. None of them existed before the creation of mankind, and therefore were not originally a part of God's eternal moral law of love. According to what you said earlier that disqualifies them as commandments Gentiles after the cross are obligated to obey. Will you please elaborate on this point. Thank you.

Also, you didn't mention anything about God commanding something as being a legitimate moral requirement. What do you think? One more thing. You said God arbitrarily chose the seventh day of creation to symbolize sabbath rest. Are you sure? What is so symbolic about resting on the seventh-day of the week? Will you please explain the following scriptures:

Genesis
2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Exodus
20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/02/04 08:44 PM

quote:

Lobo, I believe the ten commandments forbid all forms of murder - including murderous thoughts and feelings. Is abortion murder? Absolutely. What if Mary had gotten an abortion? Yes, in principle, if not in detail, the ten commandments accommodate every possible form of sin. This doesn't mean we are at liberty to disregard the details. On the contrary, the details make it possible to apply the underlying principles to situations not specifically named.

Ok Mike, you are going to have to prove that idea. Show me where the Ten C’s state that abortion is murder? Note, to do that it first has to show that an unborn baby is technically alive and human.

Next, show me where it states thoughts or feelings convict as well.

You don’t seem to understand Mike that you are implying these ideas to the text that are NOT literal stated or written.

So if I went with EXACTLY what is written I would not see anything about thoughts and nothing about abortion.

You say disregard the details, but the details you speak of are NOT written. These are details YOU are implying. They are not written.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Not written, not there!

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/03/04 03:10 AM

Lobo, would you mind addressing the rest of my post? Then I would be better able to answer your questions. Thank you.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/03/04 12:21 PM

Mike.

From your last post to me, I got the impression that you believe in:

1. Salvation (Christ’ redemption) is a gift
2. Qualification for heaven is also a gift.

So, both salvation and justification is a gift.

I completely agree with you; Christ imputed righteousness and his imparted righteousness is all gifts to us, by believing it we accept those gifts.

Now, what is my part in all this?

Believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and live by the Spirit, or believing the Gospel of Christ and live by the law?

What I understand and believe is that with living by the Spirit, I would have fruits of the Spirit and a justification by faith at the end that qualifies me for heaven. On the contrary by living for self I would have deeds of the flesh that disqualifies me for heaven.

My part to seek a place in heaven is just FAITH in Christ and God would do the rest.

That’s why Christ said ’if you have faith as big as the seed of ……… (I forgot the name), you may move one mountain from its place to another place.” But is there any one on earth that has moved a mountain from its place to another place? What I knew that Joshua has prayed with faith that the sun may stay still and it happened.

Therefore, even though my part is only faith, but not many really understand what faith is and how to live with faith in order to be justified for heaven.

In this relation, I didn’t see that by obeying the law, I have true faith. Why? Because I can’t help stop thinking that my righteousness is at least spoiled with “selfish motives.” I must keep the law, I must keep the Sabbath holy, I must not eat unclean foods, I must not have covetous desire, etc; all these gives me a feeling of bondage, I am OBLIGE to do these all.

I really think and believe that true faith gives freedom and joy and happiness. There should be no pressures such as obligation, responsibility, covetous desires even for a holly living or righteous behavior.

Therefore, being under the law’s jurisdiction I feel obliged to do it, where keeping the Sabbath holy as according to the law is bondage. I feel that by sacrificing my job and all other business activity or even my favorite TV show on Sabbath day in order I may keep the Sabbath holy as according to the law is not showing my love to God but showing my fear for breaking the law.

While I must admit that the other nine commandments don’t give me the feeling of bondage, for it is all connected with love.

That is my problem, do you know the solution?

So, I still study and search the bible, is it really true that Christians after the cross are obliged to keep and obey the law of the Ten Commandments? Is it really automatically whenever a man accept Jesus Christ by faith and baptized he comes under the law’s jurisdiction with the obligation to keep and obey it all?

In His love

James S.

Posted By: Will

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/03/04 09:06 PM

James,
What was annuled by the grace of God? It couldn't have been just 1 commandment out of the 10 since the Holy SPirit would not lead someone to believe a lie, so there must be something.. These differences are found in the New Testament of Jesus Christ and the Old Testament of Jesus Christ.

Can you tell me what those differences are?

God Bless & Shabbat Shalom,
Will

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/03/04 09:42 PM

James, I very much enjoyed reading your last post. Thank you. I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that we must avoid making not sinning or righteous behaviour the central focus of our walk with Christ. A sin-centered faith is a works oriented religion, which denies the Lord who bought them.

Neither should we make the law of God the focus of our attention. Anything that takes His place in our hearts and minds is an enemy of the soul. This can include Bible study and prayer if we make them more important than Jesus Himself. There was a time in my walk when I spent more time studying the Bible and praying than I did fellowshipping with Jesus as with a friend. Sounds strange, but it its true.

I can relate to the problem you're having with keeping the sabbath and not getting caught up and over burdened with the do's and don'ts. It can make sabbath keeping seem like we are trying to work our way to heaven or to earn God's favor. And that stinks, big time.

But I have also wrestled in the past with this same problem regarding the other commandments. Sometimes resisting certain kinds of temptations can seem like I'm trying to merit salvation by works of self-righteousness.

For example, I used to find it hard to resist the urge to retaliate when a trucker pulled out in front of me on a hill to pass another slow moving truck. I was tempted to get in front of him and slow way down just to screw up his momentum. Of course, I would decide against it because Jesus said, Vengeance in mine.

But what a warped way of thinking, eh! Over the years, and praise the Lord, I have learned to appreciate truckers and their need to keep up their speed on hills. My perspective changed so that now I am no longer disturbed when a trucker pulls out in front of me, in fact, I even flash my headlights to let him know it's okay.

I mention this personal issue to illustrate what Jesus did to set me free. I am convinced getting impatient or upset with people is wrong and unchristlike whether I can justify their actions or not. In other words, I do not feel like I need to understand their behaviour in order to resist getting mad at them.

In Christ, it is my privilege to love everyone, the good, the bad and the ugly. I do not have to rationalize loving the unlovely or figure out a way to excuse their actions so I can justify loving them. Never again, thank you Jesus. Now I am free to love everyone because Jesus is in my heart. No more rediculous games. Just pure love, plain and simple.

Now, back to the sabbath question. In Christ, I am no longer distracted by the do's and don'ts of lawful sabbath keeping. Fellowshipping with Jesus on the sabbath is such a blessing that I don't even notice the do's and don'ts. They're not an issue for me any more. Thank you Jesus. I look forward to sharing the sabbath hours with Jesus. Things get so busy during the week that I welcome a break from them on the sabbath.

I no longer view the sabbath in terms of what I can and can't do. That just makes sabbath keeping a bummer and a sin. If we can't wait for the sabbath to end, or if we regret it when it begins, then we are guilty of breaking the whole law, not just the sabbath commandment. Remember, the ten commandments are one law, not ten.

If we hate sabbath keeping then we are in essence saying we hate spending quality time with Jesus. Because that's what sabbath keeping is all about. It's not about what we can and cannot do, rather the sabbath is a divine date with God. I love my wife and look forward to seeing her whenever we're apart for more than an hour, and that's how I feel about the sabbath.

Not that I can't spend quality time with God throughout the six working days of the week, it's just that on the sabbath I don't have to divide my time between working and fellowshipping with Jesus. I absolutely love the unspoiled time I spend with Him on the sabbath.

Does that make sense to you?

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/06/04 01:43 AM

quote:

Therefore, being under the law’s jurisdiction I feel obliged to do it, where keeping the Sabbath holy as according to the law is bondage. I feel that by sacrificing my job and all other business activity or even my favorite TV show on Sabbath day in order I may keep the Sabbath holy as according to the law is not showing my love to God but showing my fear for breaking the law.

While I must admit that the other nine commandments don’t give me the feeling of bondage, for it is all connected with love.

Wow James, excellent points.

I believe the sabbath “feels” like bondage because it has no inherent moral value like not killing, not committing adultery, etc. All the other 9 have direct negative impacts on our fellow man. And showing love for our fellow man does not seem like bondage when we have the new heart of a believer.

However, how does the sabbath effect our fellow man? How does it affect God? How do we keep it?

The problem is, as I see it, that the sabbath was designed as a ceremonial item. It had many regulations that again, were ceremonial. So how do we even determine what of the sabbath requirements we should keep? And, how can we even determine that? For the sabbath to be really kept shouldn’t we keep all its requirements and not just those we want to?

Here are the sabbath requirements:

The Sabbath Offering (Num. 28:9)
Not to go beyond city limits (Exo. 16:29)
Not to punish (Exo. 35:3)
Kept from sunset to sunset (Lev. 23:32)
No burden was to be carried (Jer. 17:21)
No fire kindled (Ex. 35:3)
No Cooking done (Ex. 16:23)
The penalty for doing any of these things during the Sabbath was DEATH (Numbers 15).

So if we are truly sincere about keeping the sabbath, shouldn’t we keep the day as it was given? If we don’t keep it the way it was given, then is it really the sabbath or just some day we have designed and not God?

Also, looking at the laws regarding the sabbath, most all are ceremonial in nature and have no moral implications to love for man.

So why I feel that it may seem a burden is that it is ceremonial in nature and doesn’t have intrinsic (self contained) moral implications that the other 9 laws do. The moral implications of the sabbath have to be applied and inferred, but are not naturally continued.

Lastly, if you are doing anything out of fear, that means you are leading the holy spirit, and he is not leading you. When you follow the holy spirit you do it because it is a natural expression of your faith, not because you are afraid. So don’t anything out of fear means that you are trying to work your way to heaven.

Understand?

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/06/04 04:13 PM

Mike.

Thanks for your post that shone bright light.

So, do you think, whenever we are free from selfish motives, all what we have in our hearts is to share this love to God and men.

Sabbath keeping is no longer a “don’t and do” but a loving sharing relationship with Jesus who loves me so much that he wants die for me in pain and humiliation in order I may live.

I think that is the best solution, freedom in obedience because the source is unselfish love.

But I really think that this kind of faith and acceptance is very personal. We must really be freed from “self” in order we may enjoy this kind of relationship where obedience is no longer a burden and obligation but an expression of love.

Yeah, Jesus gives us freedom, freedom to live, freedom to choose, freedom to love him more than self. The only problem is: Can we accept this freedom through faith? Do we have enough faith to enjoy this relationship?

Looking from this perspective I think Sabbath keeping is no longer a bondage and slavery. What do you think?

In His love.

James S.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/06/04 04:17 PM

Lobo.

You are right, but I think we feel Sabbath keeping as a bondage or slavery because we feel that we must do it perfectly in order for not breaking it.

But when we loved Jesus really, he would release us from this feeling and sense of bondage. It is a day of joy and happiness, sharing love and attention which others and with Jesus.

Thus, I think we must live with faith and love would rule our hearts where the Ten Commandments is no longer a bondage and slavery but fruits of the Spirit. No more a means to be justified, no more a means to be qualified for heaven, no more a means for self righteousness, but an expression of our faith and love.

What do you think?

In His love

James S

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/08/04 07:23 PM

James,

You are right on the mark wih your last post for Jesus Himself said that if we love Him then we will display that we love Him by keeping His commandments, however, if we don't love him, then there really isn't any sense in keeping them.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/09/04 12:14 AM

James,

I agree that our intent or motives for doing something makes all the difference. But you stated “But when we loved Jesus really, he would release us from this feeling and sense of bondage. It is a day of joy and happiness, sharing love and attention which others and with Jesus.”

If that is the case, then why would we not take more than one day to common with Jesus and experience this joy?

Also, either we keep the sabbath as given in the bible or it’s not the sabbath. I don’t believe WE can decide what to do in this regard as that was not an option given in scripture.

So what I’m saving is that if you keep the sabbath as you described you are not keeping it as given in the tables of stone. And if that is the case, what does it matter what day you experience this communion with Jesus on? If we don’t keep all the rules for the actual sabbath, then we can legitimately say that Wednesday or Tuesday will be our day to commune with God, right?

So to clarify, what I’m saying is that if you remove the rules or sabbath observance requirements, it is no longer the sabbath of the ten commandments, it’s something else.

What do you think?

quote:

James,

You are right on the mark wih your last post for Jesus Himself said that if we love Him then we will display that we love Him by keeping His commandments, however, if we don't love him, then there really isn't any sense in keeping them.

Daryl, please explain that statement in light of the fact that you are not keeping all the sabbath requirements? So how can you say that pleases Jesus? Also, how can you even imply that our behavior in anyway could ever please Jesus as scripture states that that is not true?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/09/04 04:26 AM

Lobo,

I am referring specifically to the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, and the instructions given there, nothing more and nothing less.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/09/04 09:00 PM

Ok Daryl, then please explain why all the others sabbath observance requirements outlined in the OT law no longer apply? On what basis do you go by the tables of stone alone? Where is it stated that these other sabbath requirements have been removed or abolished?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/10/04 12:17 AM

Lobo,

It seems to me that the God of the Scriptures distinguished between the Ten Commandments and the other laws that were given such as the laws regarding health and the laws regarding ceremonies.

In Hebrews 9:4 we read:

quote:

Hebrews 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

Three things were in the ark of the covenant:

1 - The golden pot that had manna

2 - Aaron's rod that budded

3 - The tables of the covenant.

What were the tables of the covenant referring to? I believe they were the Ten Commandments.

It says that the tables of the covenant, the Ten Commandments, were placed within the ark of the covenant.

Where were the other laws that were given to Moses by God placed?

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/10/04 12:34 AM

They were placed beside the Ark, but does geography really have anything to do with it?

I mean in reality, the tables of stone were not used or referenced as a “working” law, because no one could look at or touch them. So what was the working law that Israel used? The book of the law or torah. This was a written version of all the 613 laws, which included those originally on stone.

So from a logistical perspective, the Torah was “The Law” because it had all the laws in it and was what they read from and taught from.

So I really don’t see how the tables of stone being in the Ark made it more law to Israel, or makes it more law to you?

In addition, if we use that as the criteria, what does Aaron’s rod and the manna have to do with us Christians now?

Also, are you trying to say that the tables of stone are more valid because in Revelation the Ark in heaven is seen? Does it even state anywhere that there are tables of stone in the heavenly Ark?

So let me ask another question; if what is on the tables of stone is the requirement, then why do you follow the kosher laws from the torah? Why are these laws more moral or valuable than the additional sabbath laws? I don’t see the distinction.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/11/04 06:45 AM

James, it thrilled my soul to read your last post. Praise the Lord. I totally agree with you. When we are truly, really in a loving relationship with Jesus, our service to Him will spring forth from a heart renewed by the love of God. And Oh, how sweet it is. Thank you Jesus.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/10/04 07:03 PM

Lobo, we have already addressed your objections to sabbath keeping. The requirements you listed above, which you feel constitute legitimate sabbath keeping, still apply in principle. But they must be balanced by what Jesus said in the NT - It is lawful to do well on the sabbath day.

For example, it wasn't necessary to run far and wide collecting firewood to cook manna on the sabbath - it was supernaturally preserved by God. The man who disregarded God's instructions and built a fire was guilty of rebellion. But nowadays we don't have manna. Nevertheless, we should still do as much food prep on Friday so we can enjoy the sabbath with Jesus more fully. So you see, the principle still applies.

The rule about a "sabbath day's journey" has been perverted. The principle of traveling on the sabbath implies that we should not travel so far that our entire sabbath is wasted taveling. Which is still true today, even though my vehicle is so comfortable it makes traveling a pleasure.

No matter what we think or say or read about the do's and don'ts of sabbath keeping no honest hearted Christian, who embraces the sabbath, feels like it's a bummer. Lobo, you have chosen to reject the sabbath. That's your prerogative. The rest of us have chosen to imitate Jesus' earthly example, and we also look forward to keeping it with Him throughout eternity. I wish you could enjoy the same with us.

Also, the sabbath commadment doesn't imply we can worship God only once a week. Not at all. Instead, it plainly says we must worship Him every day of the week - by working with Him the first six days and resting with Him on the seventh day.

Posted By: Will

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/10/04 11:01 PM

James,
I praise the Lord for the way you have so eloquently outlined the differences between outward observance and being set free through Jesus Christ.

James you posted:

quote:

But when we loved Jesus really, he would release us from this feeling and sense of bondage. It is a day of joy and happiness, sharing love and attention which others and with Jesus.

Amen!

God Bless you and your family,
Will

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/10/04 11:58 PM

James,

I also praise the Lord for the truth He has revealed to you through the Holy Spirit.

quote:

James posted:
Thus, I think we must live with faith and love would rule our hearts where the Ten Commandments is no longer a bondage and slavery but fruits of the Spirit. No more a means to be justified, no more a means to be qualified for heaven, no more a means for self righteousness, but an expression of our faith and love.

Yes, James, it is an expression, it is a result, of our faith and love towards Him. [Smile]

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/12/04 04:36 PM

Thanks all for your loving comments.

It’s really hard for me to be released from the feeling of bondage because, maybe, what I hear, what I read and what I saw is law keeping oriented. A kind of life where righteousness by works is more dominant than righteousness by faith.

So, I try to find a solution where I came up with ideas I have presented here, which I see is much alike with Lobo.

Anyway, this discussion has given me a better perspective of how to relate the law in accordance with righteousness by faith.

Thank you.

In His love

James S.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/12/04 04:38 PM

Lobo.

You are right!

The logic is, if we put the law ahead, it becomes bondage. But when love filled our heart, there is no law (Galatians 5:22,23)! Keeping the Sabbath day as according to what is written on stone tablets is a natural outflow of the hearts that loved Jesus more than self, an expression of our love filled hearts.

We go to church, we put aside our business activity, we turn off the TV, we share our happiness of having a special day alone with Jesus to our servants and employers by releasing them from serving us at that day. All this is done because we want to enter a rest of physical, pleasure and business activity to joint Jesus in faith by honoring him, glorifying him, praising him and meditating about him.

I am sure, this perspective would release me from the feeling of bondage, from the feeling of obligation, from the feeling I am under the law.

Maybe this is what is meant by: Sin would not be your master, because you are not under the law but under grace (Romans 6:14).

Being under grace, the love of God ruled our hearts, expressed it self in deeds that is in harmony with the law; “…. against such there is o law”, which I take as there is no law that I feel obligated to keep and observe, I did it as an expression of love that ruled my heart.

If I put the law ahead, if I feel oblige to keep and observe the law for not breaking it or to have a righteous living, sin (my self-love attitude) would take over and dominate me.

I think this is not against my previous ideas but just a solution or way out to put the law in a correct relationship between me and God.

When Christ is in our heart, his love ruling our mind and body, we became one with him, the partition wall that separates us from him (the law as a means of salvation or righteousness by works) was all removed and nailed to his cross (Ephesians 2:13-15), what left is Christ, in our hearts.

You wrote:

So to clarify, what I’m saying is that if you remove the rules or sabbath observance requirements, it is no longer the sabbath of the ten commandments, it’s something else.

What do you think?

Unquote.

That is my answer; at least I believe it is still fulfilling the 7th day Sabbath as according to what is written on stone.

In His love

James S.

Posted By: Ikan

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/12/04 04:48 PM

James? Mentaati Sabat?! Selagi ada kejujuran selama itulah ada harapan!

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/13/04 01:57 AM

Thanks for the response James.

I take it then that you don’t worry about the sabbath “rules” and just do or don’t do what you feel reflects love for God? Is that correct? If so, then you realize that you may not be following the sabbath as given, but it doesn’t matter because you are following your heart and not the law. Right? So it’s the “spirit” or intent of the sabbath commandment that you are honoring to please God, not the specifics. Right?

If that is correct, then I think that is great.

Paul states;

“5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.” Romans 14

If you are fully convinced in your own mind and have that faith between you and God, then you are doing what is right and good until the spirit shows you different. I would never say that what the spirit has shown you is wrong.

ps - looks like we got Ikan so charged up that he is speaking in tongues! [Smile]

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/13/04 02:24 AM

Lobo,

We all do the same thing as James out of [Heart]

love

for what Christ did for us at Calvary, through which the 10 Commandments, written on stone, are now also written on our [Heart]

hearts.

Thus, the law, instead of being annulled, is established in our [Heart]

hearts.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/13/04 05:13 AM

Lobo, the quote you shared from Romans 14 has nothing to do with sabbath keeping. The passage is talking about food and fasting. The law of God does not depend on what we think is right or wrong. The Holy Spirit will never lead us to disobey the sabbath.

The sabbath keeping "rules" you keep talking about still apply in principle today. Nobody here is ignoring them or breaking them. We are keeping the seventh-day sabbath exactly they way it is described in the Bible. And not because we are working our way to heaven, but because the love of God fills our hearts.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/14/04 01:51 AM

Daryl,
I agree with what you have stated, but I believe it is the precepts of the law(s) that God gave to Israel that are on our hearts, not the specific laws.

Do you think the specific law to make your slaves keep the sabbath is on our hearts? How could that be on our heart knowing that slavery is a moral issue and against the law of love Jesus introduced in the NT?

So it cannot be the specific 10 C’s on our hearts or we have a moral dilemma here because owning slaves against their will is against Jesus law of love.

This is why the 10 C’s are inadequate when it comes to giving believers moral direction; they are too morally remedial in nature and do not come close to the moral level Jesus introduced.

So I think a more accurate way of saying that would be that we have Jesus law of love on our hearts once we are born again. His law supports the intent, but not the specifics, of the 10 c’s.

quote:

Lobo, the quote you shared from Romans 14 has nothing to do with sabbath keeping. The passage is talking about food and fasting. The law of God does not depend on what we think is right or wrong. The Holy Spirit will never lead us to disobey the sabbath.

Really Mike? Then what sacred day is Paul repeatedly talking about?

You see, unlike you, Paul and other Jews never separated the 10 laws originally on stone from the rest of the 613 laws. So Paul saw no difference between the sabbath and the special meals that were ate on the sabbath to commemorate the day. It was all rapped up together.

Do you think it would be consistent for Paul to say that the special meals and things that were done on the sabbath are a non-issue, but the day those things were designed for remains?

That doesn’t make sense.

I don’t understand how you can strip out all the items that were required related to the sabbath and then just leave the day without the other things that made it special. No Jew, including Jesus, ever did that.

quote:

The sabbath keeping "rules" you keep talking about still apply in principle today. Nobody here is ignoring them or breaking them. We are keeping the seventh-day sabbath exactly they way it is described in the Bible. And not because we are working our way to heaven, but because the love of God fills our hearts.

Why can you make the rules apply in principle and not the day apply in principle?

Does it seem to you that this taking of certain things and making it literal and others not is inconsistent? What person in scripture ever did that?

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/14/04 04:12 PM

Lobo.

You wrote:

Thanks for the response James.

I take it then that you don’t worry about the sabbath “rules” and just do or don’t do what you feel reflects love for God? Is that correct? If so, then you realize that you may not be following the sabbath as given, but it doesn’t matter because you are following your heart and not the law. Right? So it’s the “spirit” or intent of the sabbath commandment that you are honoring to please God, not the specifics. Right?

If that is correct, then I think that is great.

Unquote.

You are right, I don’t worry about the Sabbath rules for I believe my love to God would expressed it selves in deeds that are in harmony with the law, including what is written on stone about the 4th commandment.

I think, if I follow the rules as according to the law, I will put the law ahead of me; this will make me again a law-keeper instead of a faith keeper that follows the Spirit. I become entangled again with the basic principle of the world and rebuilt again what I have destroyed; to focus on self through obedience to the law.

But through the Spirit, Christ live in me and I would do the things he had done including Sabbath keeping.

“Before faith has come we are under the supervision of the law, but now, when we lived by faith, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.”

The law ceased to guide us to Christ for the need of righteousness by faith for it is Christ himself now that lead our life through faith.

Once I think by keeping and obeying the Sabbath as according to the “rules” written on stone, I am under the law and become a “slave” of self-righteousness. But now I think that if Christ is in me, I will do the things he had done and Sabbath keeping is a joy and happiness, no longer because of the law but because of Christ.

That’s the way I see.

In His love

James S

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/14/04 07:12 PM

quote:

But through the Spirit, Christ live in me and I would do the things he had done including Sabbath keeping.

James, does that mean you will also keep all the appointed feasts and Jewish customs that Jesus did as well? Why is he your example in only sabbath keeping?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/14/04 07:29 PM

Lobo,

It was the sacrificial system and the ceremonial Sabbaths that came to an end at Calvary when Christ, the one that all those sacrifices pointed to, was voluntarily sacrificed for your sins and mine.

The Old Testament clearly differentiated between the weekly 7th day Sabbath and the ceremonial Sabbaths, so why can't you? And the New Testament did the same thing.

quote:

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The laws consisting in ordinances, typifying Christ’s death was the one nailed on the cross:

quote:

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

It was, therefore, those laws dealing with ordinances and sacrifices that was abolished at the cross. The veil was torn in two to show this very fact.

quote:

Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

Christ, the Lamb of God, sacrificed for you and I ended the need for any further sacrifices.

Posted By: Lobo

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/15/04 01:17 AM

quote:

The Old Testament clearly differentiated between the weekly 7th day Sabbath and the ceremonial Sabbaths, so why can't you? And the New Testament did the same thing.

Daryl,

What do you mean by ceremonial sabbaths? Only those connected to sacrificial system like the day of atonement? Or are you also including the appointed feasts?

If you also mean the appointed feasts, then I do not agree with you. How can the 7th day sabbath be differentiated between the other appointed feasts when they ALL had the same or similar requirements?

The 7th day sabbath required:

- rest from work

- Sacred assembly

- Limited travel

- A special sacrifice

- A special meal

- No punishing

All these things were also required on all the other appointed feasts days, which had nothing to do with the sacrificial system other than the day of atonement.

So why do you believe the 7th day sabbath is not ceremonial when all these ceremonial things were done to honor it just like all the other feast days?

So I agree there can be seen a clear distinction between the sacrificial items of the law and the other items. But there is no clear differentiation, as you say, between the 7th day sabbath and all the other appointed feasts because they have the same requirements. In fact, they are even listed together in Lev 23:2-3.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/07/04 04:36 PM

Lobo.

You wrote:

James, does that mean you will also keep all the appointed feasts and Jewish customs that Jesus did as well? Why is he your example in only sabbath keeping

Unquote.

Since Jesus was a Jew, he too must comply with the Jewish customs, for he must be justified by the law as a perfect righteous law keeper, in order he might be our sin redeemer.

But for us, after the cross, what remain is to be changed in the image of Christ, through faith, for those who believe him and want to walk after the Spirit.

If love is the fulfillment of the law, we knew which law it is; the Ten Commandments. Therefore, how could love fulfill only 9 laws if we do not include the 4th law?

If Adam & Eve never sinned and we all live in Eden, do you think there is no Sabbath rest there? If no, why did God made it aside and blessed it as a day of remembrance of creation? What is His purpose? Would this day stand for nothing?

But if it is kept and observed, do you think it will be observe as according to the 4th commandment written on stone? No! For the Ten Commandments does not exist.

Then, how we observe that day in Eden? It would be observed the same as it must be observed now, without the do and the don’ts but as a natural expression of our love.

I think that when love ruled our hearts, it would expressed it selves in deeds that is in harmony with the law (Galatians 5:22, 23), now we could say that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4). Does this exclude the Sabbath keeping as according to the 4th commandment? I believe no, otherwise the fulfillment is incomplete.

In fact the whole Ten Commandments, when we come under it, coming under the obligation to keep and obey as the Jews were instructed (Leviticus 18:4,5), would only be a means of condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:6-9), but when it serve as: “If you love me, keep My commandments”, it is no longer an obligation but an expression.

So, I think, observing the Sabbath day is not a symbol of righteousness by works when we observe it out of love; for love is the fulfillment of the law, which must include observing the Sabbath day. Excluding it would made the fulfillment incomplete.

What do you think?

In His love

James S

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 05/08/04 06:42 AM

James, I agree with you. Refusing to violate the sabbath by keeping it holy out of a heart full of the implanted love of God is no more legalistic than refusing to murder someone because we do not want to get in trouble with the police or because we do not want to misrepresent the love of God to our fellow human beings.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 07/25/04 03:12 PM

Hi, I’m back.

I like to continue this discussion to learn more about the ‘new light” shed to me thanks to Mike Lowe who could understand my view and had brought the “missing link” and put it all together again in the right path.

Mike.

In the past when I still held to my view, there is one verse that keep nagging me but I tried to accept it the way I want, not the way God’s want.

Romans 3:31 – Shall we abolish the law because of faith? No, we upheld the law!

Now, I understood this message, that a faithful believer would live by his faith and walks after the Spirit, he would then bear fruits of the Spirit, which is love as the fulfillment of the law.

So, our faith doesn’t abolish the law, on the contrary, our faith would expressed it selves in deeds that are in harmony with the law, the whole law, including the 4th commandment.

But a faithful believer is not under the law, which means he is not under the obligation and responsibility whatsoever to keep and observe the law, for if he is, the law would only become a means of condemnation for him (Romans 6:23).

Obedience to the law of God never become an indication or measurement that a believer is saved, the only measurement of salvation is that a believer has the love of God that ruled his heart and expressed it selves in deeds that are in harmony with the law, which is a proof that this believer lives with faith and walks after the Spirit.

Many believers have shown deeds that are in harmony with the law because they had tried their best to keep and observe it, they had tried their best not to involve with sin, but this doesn’t indicate that they are saved. When they put the law above them and come under its obligation, they had made the law a parallel way to heaven and Christ becomes number 2.

What did he say to them who made him a 2nd priority? You knew the answer!

Whatever is not of faith is sin! Which means that only by living in faith and walks after the Spirit we would become righteous and fit for heaven. The other way is to live by the flesh, including placing ourselves under the law, under the obligation that we should keep and observe the law.

Therefore, I think, that by his death on the cross, Christ had abolish the law as a means of salvation, which in the past was his order to men (Leviticus 18:4,5). The cross was the limit of the existence and jurisdiction of the law over men as a means of salvation and after the cross it serves only as a means of condemnation. It is still there, but it stands only as a reminder for those who break it that they had sinned and that the wage of sin is death. But it no longer stands as a standard of righteousness and fitness for heaven, for when it is, Christ becomes of no effect.

Love that seeks no self becomes the standard of righteousness and fitness for heaven, for it is a proof that a man was lead by the Spirit.

Once, the law was a standard of righteousness and fitness for heaven; “The man who keeps it will live.” But no man was found righteous before the law, for indeed it was not designated to suit sinful man, born in sin. Only the Son of Man was found righteous and perfect in his obedience his whole life, and to him, was awarded resurrection unto eternal life even he died on the cross. The law was given to justify God’s action in the past in killing men that they deserve to die because they could not fulfill the demands of the law and to justify Christ for his perfect righteousness in obeying the law and fulfill it demands, in order he may become our sin redeemer and savior.

So, I think, it is time to preached to the world that God had saved us through Christ and that he had given us his Spirit to maintain what he had given us in Christ, instead of preaching to the world that they must keep and observe the 7th day Sabbath, otherwise they will lost.

What do you think?

In His love

James S.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 07/25/04 07:10 PM

James, welcome back. Absolutely, we are not saved because we obey the law. Rather, we are able to obey the law because we are saved. We cannot work our way to heaven, but we can and must allow heaven to work its way in us.

But no amount of law keeping is going to atone for the sins we committed before we experienced the miracle of rebirth. That's what Paul means in his epistles. We cannot atone for our past sins by obeying the law. Not even Spirit-powered good works can make up for past sins.

Only the blood and righteousness of Jesus Christ can atone for past sins. That's righteousness by faith. In other words, God pardons our past sins when we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour, and we are regarded as sinless, as if we never sinned.

I haven't read where God required the Jews in the OT to obey the law in order to atone for their past sins. Atonement for past sins was always based on faith in the blood of the Lamb. It's the same today.

Nor have I read where God required the Jews in the OT to obey the law in their own unaided strength in order to earn or merit salvation. Obedience has always been the fruit of faith, the same as it is today.

Yes, there were Jews who believed they had to earn their salvation by obeying the law, but their confused ideas do not represent the truth as it is in Jesus.

We are still required to obey the law, not by works of self-righteousness, but by faith that works by love and purifies the soul. The law of God defines real holiness and righteousness, and it points to Jesus as the source of success and obedience.

But the law cannot empower us to obey the law. Only Jesus can empower us to live in harmony with the loving principles of the law. And, so long as we abide in Jesus, so long as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man - we do not and cannot commit a known sin.

Ephesians
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1 John
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 08/05/04 01:45 PM

Mike, thanks for reply.

You wrote:

I haven't read where God required the Jews in the OT to obey the law in order to atone for their past sins. Atonement for past sins was always based on faith in the blood of the Lamb. It's the same today.

Nor have I read where God required the Jews in the OT to obey the law in their own unaided strength in order to earn or merit salvation. Obedience has always been the fruit of faith, the same as it is today.

Unquote.

Leviticus 18:4,5 – God commanded Israel to keep and obey his laws in order to be saved.

John 12:50 – Jesus indicated that keeping the law would give eternal life.

Romans 10:5 – Paul said that those who keep the law would live (quoting Moses).

These are direct commands and give us a clear meaning that “once” God asked his people to earn life through their obedience to his laws.

But, of course he knew the outcome that no man could make it, for all were “born sinners that come short of the glory of God”. Being under the law all men were guilty and convicted for their sins (Romans 3:19,20).

So, why did he issued the law and commanded them to earn their life through obeying the law?

Because, his purpose was to condemn men legally for their failure in keeping it perfectly; to condemn them for their sins in breaking the law.

The law was his means to justify his righteousness and justice, in killing men with the wage of sin, which is death.

But He knew before hand that there would be “one man” who would make it; he would be justified by the law for his perfect righteousness in obeying the law and fulfills its demands. This justification would award him with life as according to God’s promise. This “one man” was Jesus Christ our Lord and God; The Son of Man.

So, I think, that the law (Ten Commandments) was issued with the requirement to keep and obey it perfectly in order to earn justification that brought life, but for born sinners of Adam’s descendant, it would become as a means of condemnation to justify the death as the wages of sin and God has the legal right to execute the death upon men.

On the other hand, the law was his means to point out people to Jesus Christ, who would be justified by the law and awarded with life, as their sin redeemer and Savior. Without justification from the law, Jesus could never be our sin redeemer because it means, he is a sinner too.

S, the law was God’s means to condemn men for their sins, justifying his righteousness and justice in creating death as a means to abolish sin and sinner forever from his universe by executing the death upon them, meanwhile, the law too was his means to justify Christ as our sin redeemer and savior after he is justified by the law for his perfect righteousness.

Therefore, the law is never a means to justify us for our righteousness, it could only condemn us for our failures and sins with death as it wages, where Christ came in and justify us by his blood as a free gift of the grace of God.

If we think this way, we would never be mislaid by the teaching that makes the law become a parallel way to heaven as I have seen and heard in our church. People would fully understand the meaning of “justification by faith” and would not loose their focus on Christ.

It is true that from the beginning, justification is only by faith for men, but not all knew this if they didn’t dig and learn the word of God with humble heart. Only them that understood the purpose of the law, would put their focus on Christ and live by faith in Him.

What do you think?

In His love

James S

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 08/10/04 09:09 AM

James, here's what makes sense to me.

Leviticus
18:4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I [am] the LORD your God.
18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I [am] the LORD.

The phrase "I am the LORD" indicates that it is God who empowers us to obey, to live in harmony with the law.

John
12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus said, "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63. The word "commandment" above is referring to the words of Jesus.

Romans
10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Paul isn't contrasting Jesus and Moses, rather he is comparing the two, both yield a faith which works by love. That is, faith in Christ yields a desirable end result - a life in harmony with the will of God. "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom 8:4.

I still haven't found anywhere where God purposefully commanded the Jews, or anyone else, to obey the law (in their own strength) knowing that they wouldn't be able to do it - primarily so that He could justify killing unsaved sinners in the lake of fire at the end of time.

From what I've read, God has always been willing, and able, to empower us to obey the law in His strength. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil 2:13. I consider that to be Good News - a fundamental part of the gospel.

Edit - added Phil 2:13.

[ August 10, 2004, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 08/21/04 10:06 AM

Mike, thanks for reply.

Why could no man inherit life through his obedience to the law?

God had said: “Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein; I am the Lord your God. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments; which if a man do; he shall live in them; I am the Lord.” Leviticus 18:4,5

John 12:50 – Jesus indicated that keeping the law would give eternal life.

Romans 10:5 – Paul said that those who keep the law would live (quoting Moses), see Galatians 3:12.

Was God just playing words? Giving false hope? I read his command to Israel that those who keep and obey his law (perfectly) would inherit life as their reward.

If he is a loving and merciful God, why could not he forgive sins without sacrificing his only begotten Son and rewarded those who perfectly obey the law with life by raising them from the dead?

In his love

James S

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 08/27/04 05:03 PM

Mike.

Still waiting your reply.

James S.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 08/31/04 02:28 AM

James wrote:

quote:
Was God just playing words? Giving false hope? I read his command to Israel that those who keep and obey his law (perfectly) would inherit life as their reward.

And, I agree. But these promises must be claimed in light Philippians 2:13 (quoted above).

James wrote:

quote:
If he is a loving and merciful God, why could not he forgive sins without sacrificing his only begotten Son and rewarded those who perfectly obey the law with life by raising them from the dead?

Good question. But because we inherit a sinful nature we cannot perfectly obey the law of God in our own unaided strength. We must be born again and partake of the divine nature in order to imitate the example of Jesus.

God cannot just simply forgive and forget sinful thoughts, words and behaviour. Why? Because we are free moral agents. And so is Satan and all the evil angels. The great controversy between Christ and Satan makes it necessary for God to address Satan's accusations.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 09/01/04 04:47 AM

Mike.

You wrote:
God cannot just simply forgive and forget sinful thoughts, words and behaviour. Why? Because we are free moral agents. And so is Satan and all the evil angels. The great controversy between Christ and Satan makes it necessary for God to address Satan's accusations.
Unquote.

Why God could not forgives sin if he is a loving and merciful God even though we and the angels are free moral agents? The God as according to the Moslem’s is a loving and merciful God that forgives sins and rewarded those who serve him with eternal life. They didn’t need Jesus because God can forgive sin.

What hinders him to forgive sin?

When the sinner died, what hinders him to raise this man unto eternal life when he has done his best to live righteously and God has forgiven all his sins?

In His love

James S

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 09/01/04 07:11 PM

If salvation and eternal life were granted based on doing our best not to sin then Jesus need not have died on our behalf. Why, then, did He suffer and die?

If we can work our way to heaven, inspite of our many mistakes and shortcomings, what is our salvation based on? What is the criteria? Is there a limit to how many sins we can commit with impunity?

The fact is, everything we do, no matter how nice it looks, is polluted with sin and selfishness IF we do it in our own unaided strength. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Rom 14:23. Thus, doing our best is no better than Satan doing his best.

What is faith? In what way does faith make us different than Satan? How does faith change our good works into righteousness that is pleasing and acceptable to God?

God cannot forgive sin based on us doing our best because our best is no better than sin. Anything we do without faith is sinful and unholy and unacceptable to God. He is too loving to settle for less than best.

Jesus did not die so we can continuing living in sin, doing our best to be less sinful. Sin is sin no matter how great or small. And the effects of sinning leaves us feeling empty and unhappy. Jesus died to set us free from sin and sinning.

Only the life and death and suffering of Jesus on our behalf can convince us that sin is the evil and insidious poison it is. Only the cost Jesus paid to redeem us from sin can convince us of how sick we really are.

But more than that, the wages of sin is death. Why? Because that's the way God set things up. We may not be able to completely understand why it is so, but we must take God at His word.

We were designed and created to be like God, not like Satan. When we sin we malfunction. Why? Simply because we were not designed to sin. It's like putting water in the gas tank. It won't run right. Not because God is arbitrary, but because He's loving.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 09/04/04 06:01 AM

Mike.

You wrote.

I still haven't found anywhere where God purposefully commanded the Jews, or anyone else, to obey the law (in their own strength) knowing that they wouldn't be able to do it - primarily so that He could justify killing unsaved sinners in the lake of fire at the end of time.

Unquote.

There must be a good reason why God issued his law of the Ten Commandments. My opinion it was issued because God must have a legitimate reason to kill people in order he might abolish sin and sinner forever from the universe, on the other hand, Jesus must be justified by the law for his perfect righteousness in obeying the law in order he might become our sin redeemer and savior.

God didn’t want us to die, Adam and Eve were created to live everlasting even they were mortal, but because of their sin, they were condemned to die. Only, without a written law, God could not be justified for the death occurred to all of us.

Anybody can make his own law and whoever violated his law would be persecuted, but this would make him a tyrant and dictator. Therefore, the Ten Commandments was issued to legitimize God’s judgment in killing people to abolish sin and sinner forever, meanwhile, on the other hand to justify Christ as the only “man” in earth history that is justified by the law for his perfect righteousness in obeying the law.

The law is so holy that no man of Adam’s descendant might ever keep it perfectly without sinning even once, not even with faith in Christ. Therefore, it is not faith in Christ that saved us but his grace, for all of those who were saved and lived in heaven were once a sinner.

If any other man than Christ might be justified by the law, no matter he did it with faith in Christ or not, he would be rewarded unto eternal life for his doing, for that is the purpose of the law given: To justify a perfect righteous one unto life or to condemn a sinner with death.

So, I think, that God had planned from the very beginning before he created everything that he is going to save sinners by sacrificing his own begotten Son, to show his grace and love towards creation and justifying his justice and righteousness. He got this through the law of the Ten Commandments.

However, when the ultimate sacrifice was carried out, the purpose of the law to justify man came to an end, for all men now were justified by his grace through Christ redemption. What remain is the purpose of the law as a means of condemnation for those who put their faith in their own strength and self-righteousness.

This idea would release God from the blame of being cruel, a tyrant or dictator, even though the death is his creation, but we were not created for to die.

What do you think?

In His love

James S.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 09/03/04 10:49 PM

I'm not sure God needs to justify killing sinners in the lake of fire. Even before sin infected the human race God warned Adam and Eve, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:17. God doesn't need a law to justify killing sinners. "Our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. Sin simply cannot survive in the presence of our holy, heavenly Father. It is akin to mercy killing - putting someone out of their misery.

LDE 279, 280

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.--DA 107 (1898). {LDE 279.1}

The glory of His countenance, which to the righteous is life, will be to the wicked a consuming fire.--DA 600 (1898). {LDE 279.2}

Could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.--GC 542, 543 (1911). {LDE 279.3}

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 10/09/04 08:54 AM

Mike.

You wrote:

I'm not sure God needs to justify killing sinners in the lake of fire. Even before sin infected the human race God warned Adam and Eve, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:17. God doesn't need a law to justify killing sinners.

Unquote.

Check what Paul said in Romans 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Sin is not imputed when there is no law, but we die still even we didn’t deserve it because “the wage of sin is death” and “sin is a transgression of the law”, but without law sin is not imputed.

Adam and Eve deserve to die for it is their own sin, only God must issued the law in order he might have a justification for the death he brought upon them. But, Adam’s descendant didn’t deserve to die, for it is not their fault they were born in sin and inherit Adam’s fallen nature, while he was created in perfection for to live everlasting.

Therefore, I think, God need a means to justify what happened to Adam and humanity, to justify the death as the wage of sin, to justify that sin is breaking his law. For without the law sin is not imputed and death should not happen to us.

Death as life is God creation, but he created men with the intention that they might live forever even they were mortal and must be sustained by the fruit of life, so, when Adam and Eve sinned, they had chosen death instead of life, only God must be responsible for what happened as they were his creation and for what he had created (life and death).

So, I believe that the law was God’s means to justify his killing, to justify death as the wage of sin and to justify that sin is breaking his law. The law legitimate God’s judgment in annihilating sin and sinners forever from his universe and his would be Kingdom in order righteousness and holiness might stand alone forever.

Therefore, I believe that the law is not a means to justify our righteousness, for we have not, but to justify our unrighteousness where Christ might came and redeem us. The law is never the focus of salvation since the beginning (only little did understand this) but Christ is our focus. Before the cross, those who would be saved had focused on Him and after the cross, those who had been saved and would remain safe must focused on him.

What is the law’s position in our walk with Christ?

It remains as a means of condemnation, but those who are in Christ are not under the law and so, are not under condemnation.

In His love

James S.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 10/16/04 12:41 AM

True, in Christ we are not under the bondage of the law. We are at liberty to live in harmony with its precepts and principles. In Christ that which condemns sinners justifies saints.

GC 504
The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will now vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest. Says the word of God: "Affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. The law of God, which Satan has reproached as the yoke of bondage, will be honored as the law of liberty. A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to Him whose character has been fully manifested before them as fathomless love and infinite wisdom. {GC 504.1}

The reason we die the first death is simple - God will not allow us to eat the fruit of the tree of life and "live for ever" in our sinful condition. Death is not directly related to the law. We die because we do not eat the fruit of the tree of life.

Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

PP 47
In the midst of the garden stood the tree of life, surpassing in glory all other trees. Its fruit appeared like apples of gold and silver, and had the power to perpetuate life. {PP 46.4}

EW 51
I was pointed to Adam and Eve in Eden. They partook of the forbidden tree and were driven from the garden, and then the flaming sword was placed around the tree of life, lest they should partake of its fruit and be immortal sinners. The tree of life was to perpetuate immortality. I heard an angel ask, "Who of the family of Adam have passed the flaming sword and have partaken of the tree of life?" I heard another angel answer, "Not one of Adam's family has passed that flaming sword and partaken of that tree; therefore there is not an immortal sinner. The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death--a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 51.2}

The second death, on the other hand, is not related to the tree of life, it's related to the lake of fire. In order for sinners to die the second death God must first resurrect them. After they admit their guilt before the Great White throne, God will kill them with their sins in the lake of fire. Each one will punish and suffer according to their sins.

GC 673
Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." {GC 673.1}

EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

7BC 986
When the flood of waters was at its height upon the earth, it had the appearance of a boundless lake of water. When God finally purifies the earth, it will appear like a boundless lake of fire. As God preserved the ark amid the commotions of the Flood, because it contained eight righteous persons, He will preserve the New Jerusalem, containing the faithful of all ages, from righteous Abel down to the last saint which lived. Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements (3SG 87). {7BC 986.5}

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 11/04/04 04:25 PM

Mike.

I think the first death happened because God must abolish sin and sinners from his universe, God did kill men, not because they are not sustained by the fruit of life, but really is because death fell upon them, and death is God creation.

If there is no death, no one would die even they didn’t eat the fruit of life. They might get weaker and weaker and sick all their life but no one will die, for there s no death.

Adam and Eve were warned that they would die if they eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. And they ate the fruit, and God must kill them for their sin in order sin and sinners would not live forever.

But as God had said: “The soul that sinned is the one to die”, only Adam and Eve who deserve to die, for it is their own sin and the wage of sin is death. But Adam’s descendant, humanity that were born later didn’t deserve to die, it is not their sin and they never asked to be born, but they were born in the image and likeness of Adam after the fall, who has a death body and sinful nature. This is UNFAIR and UNJUST, if God didn’t take any action to make it straight and right, he is not the God he had claimed himself to be.

Therefore, Jesus was sent to safe the world, to redeem the sin of all who is not theirs, which gives their life back through a free justification as a gift. This is an act that God carried out to perform his responsibility against creation, for he is the one who must be responsible in creating life, which some of his creatures had chosen to serve them selves more than to serve him, which make them become sinners and must die. God knew the risk of creation and is willing to take the responsibility; even it will cost the life of his only begotten Son.

On the other hand, the second death is a dead humanity deserve for it is the wages of their own sin for those who live and died in sin. Even so, to avoid men to die the second death after Christ had made them alive through his redemption work, God must work for them to keep this salvation in their possession, to remain safe. Otherwise all will lost again for in their fallen nature no one might inherit life eternal through their own effort.

So, we see why life eternal is God’s grace; because not only he had given back our life through Christ redemption, but he maintains it also for us who believes him to remain in our possession.

But to justify all these, a law must be issued, for if there is no law, there is no transgression and sin s not imputed and death will not exist.

In s love

James S.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 11/16/04 01:44 PM

Mike wrote:
posted September 01, 2004 01:11 PM

If salvation and eternal life were granted based on doing our best not to sin then Jesus need not have died on our behalf. Why, then, did He suffer and die?

If we can work our way to heaven, inspite of our many mistakes and shortcomings, what is our salvation based on? What is the criteria? Is there a limit to how many sins we can commit with impunity?

Unquote.

If God can not forgive us who sinned, is he then a loving and merciful God?
If he is, then we can work our way to heaven inspite of our many mistakes and shortcomings. Because it is God’s love that forgives our sins. This makes salvation based on works, right?!

But, the fact is that God sent his only begotten Son to the world to save sinners. Why is that necessary???

Because I think, that human kind didn’t deserve to die for the sin of Adam and Eve who were created in perfection and holiness for an everlasting life, while we were born in sin for dying.

This is UNFAIR and UNJUST, therefore God must take an action to make everything right, to declare his justice, his righteousness and his love towards men. He must give men a second chance to live eternally, by waking them up from the death.

Through his laws and commandments he gave men a second chance to live again after death, those who did keep it will live (Leviticus 18:4,5).

But was there any person on earth justified to life thanks to his perfect obedience to the law that granted him justification? No one! Why? Because the law of God is holy, right and good, while men are sinful and were held prisoner under sin. They couldn’t fulfill the law’s demand in order to be justified for life.

But again, this is not their fault neither their mistake they were born in sin, for they didn’t ask to be born.

Therefore, God must take the last and extreme action, to come to the world himself in order to save men. His redemption justifies all men for eternal life once and for all, his blood cleanse and forgives sins, His Spirit changes men who believe him and walk in faith, back in the image of God.

Now, not only all who died would be resurrected from the death to life, but many of them has the chance to live eternally thanks to Christ who saved them and send his Spirit to them who believe him in order they might experience a change of nature, freedom from sin, a new heart ruled with love.

Thank you Christ for your love towards me.

In His love

James S

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 11/16/04 08:38 PM

James,

Could you explain this theory of divine justice from the bible?

/Thomas

Posted By: vastergotland

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 11/17/04 02:07 AM

James,

You seem to be arguing the immortality of man. As I remember, the bible says God and only God is immortal. Any comments?

/Thomas

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 11/27/04 01:31 PM

Mike wrote:

But more than that, the wages of sin is death. Why? Because that's the way God set things up. We may not be able to completely understand why it is so, but we must take God at His word.

Unquote.

But do you know that our first death is not the wages of sin? We inherits this death from Adam.

Christ didn’t come to save us because of we must die the death as the wages of sin. He came to gives our life back, because the death we experience is UNFAIR and UNJUST. He must come and die to gives our life back if he wants to be accepted as a loving God who is just and kind.

In His love

James S.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 11/28/04 07:47 AM

James, I agree with you that the first death is not the wages of sin. The second death is the wages of sin. We die the first death because we cannot eat the fruit of the tree of life. The first death is only a sleep. It's not the wages of sin.

But what's this about death being unfair and unjust? God is not unfair or unjust. We do not die the second death on account of Adam's sin. No way. People will die in the lake of fire because of their own sins, because they did not comply with the conditions of salvation - not because of Adam's sin.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 11/27/04 09:55 PM

Mike.

God would be unfair and unjust when he left us die without taking any action to safe us. We don’t deserve to die because:

1. We died because of Adam sin, where the death as the wage of his transgression was passed on to us through the multiplication of the flesh (Romans 5:12,14).
2. We died as the wages of our own sin because we are unable to keep God’s law perfectly in order to bejustified unto life, but is this our fault? No, because we didn’t asked to be born in sin and inherits Adam’s fallen sinful nature, meanwhile Adam was created in perfection for an everlasting life.

Therefore, he must come and die to redeem our sins and gives our life back and the opportunity to be released from the power of sin through faith in him.

In His love

James S.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 11/28/04 11:41 PM

James, what do you believe about the first and second deaths? Are there any differences from your point of view? As I see it, we die the first death on account of Adam's sin. But the first death is not the wages of sin. And we die the second death on account of our own sins, because we refused or neglected salvation. The second death is the wages of sin. Either way, God is neither unjust nor unfair.

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 11/30/04 07:58 AM

Mike.

For us, we die the 1st death on account of Adam’s sin; that is true, I agree.
We die the 2nd death on account of our sin; that is true, I agree.

The wages of sin is the 2nd death; that is true, I agree.

God is unfair and unjust if Christ didn’t come to redeem us, because dying the 1st death is not our fault, and even the law was given to give life for those who keep it perfectly and fulfil it demands but due to our sinful nature, we could not keep it to earn life. Therefore, we still die. But again, it is not our fault, because we were born in sin and inherit Adam’s sinful nature that make it impossible for us to keep the good, just and holy law of God.

But with the redemption of Jesus Christ, God had shown that he is the God of love, just and fair.
Because Christ death gave our life back, and His Spirit given to those who live with faith in him would make him FIT for heaven.

In His love

James S.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 11/30/04 08:36 AM

Amen! The fact we inherit a sinful nature means we cannot stop ourselves from sinning - until we are born again. And, you're right, it's not our fault that we were born with a sinful nature. But it is our fault if we refuse to be born again. People will be lost, not because they have sinned, but because they rejected salvation in Jesus. God is not unfair or unjust because, rather than abandoning us to our hopeless plight, He sent Jesus to make it possible for us to escape the corruption that is in the world through lust.

DA 590
Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have been in error, but from the fact that we have neglected heaven-sent opportunities for learning what is truth. {DA 489.5}

Posted By: James Saptenno

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 12/12/04 07:17 AM

Mike.

I see that we have the same thoughts.

BTW, you say: People will be lost, not because they have sinned, but because they rejected salvation in Jesus.

I agree with this.
People die the 2nd death as the wage of their sins, but people is lost because they reject to put their faith in Christ; they reject to believe him; they reject to hear and accept the truth of the Gospel of Christ sent by heaven’s messengers.

This means, at the judgment, we are justified unto life eternal because of our faith in Christ that have changed us completely in the image and likeness of God, our fitness for heaven. We are condemned because of our rejection to believe Christ and to put our faith in him, which make us UNFIT for heaven because we are not changed to the image and likeness of God.

Where is the place of Ten Commandments in the judgment?

Death is the wages of sin; sin is transgression of the law. Being unchanged, a man remains by default in sin, all what he did are against the intend of the law, described in the Ten Commandments.

Thus, the law is not our focus but Christ, if we are changed and become like Him, we are FIT for heaven; if not, we are NOT FIT for heaven and God could not allow sin and sinners live forever, there must be an end to sin by executing the wages of sin unto sinners; the 2nd death in hell.

In His love

James S.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/01/14 01:50 AM

Moved this here.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/01/14 02:03 AM

Moved this here for more exposure.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/01/14 02:50 AM

As I merged these two threads together, there may be some duplicate posts.

Posted By: dedication

Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law? - 04/01/14 03:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Daryl

Some people use the following verse to say that God's grace has annulled His Law.

Quote:

Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: <B>for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Is this true? Does God's grace annul His Law?

Please use the Bible to back up your answers.

In His Love, Mercy & Grace
Daryl

Paul asks and answers this very question.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 7:7 I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.