SIN (singular) and sins (plural) - Hogwash or Whitewash?

In simple English:

Weakened through sin, we can not of ourselves keep the law of God. But Christ came to our world to restore the moral image of God in men, and to bring them back from the path of disobedience to a path of obedience. His mission to the world was to reveal the character of God by living the Law, which is the foundation of His government; and those who will accept Him as their personal Saviour will grow in grace, and in His strength will be enabled to obey the Law of God.

Is that plain enough?

Mike.

Thanks again as you understand my view and agree that it is according to the heart of Pauline epistle.

Why does the other not?

What is more important, keeping the law or having the “love of God” in our heart?

If they could not see the difference, they would hardly understand the Gospel of Christ.

In His love

James S

It's too clear from what Charlene and Avalee posted that the Gospel cannot be separated from the Law for all mankind that He wrote. Sorry James and Mike, but either you understand that Christ empowers you obey the Father's rules of love through living in you, or you remain a Romans 7 man, sinning and repenting in an endless cycle, hoping that He will wink at your sloppy attempts and excuses.
This way of life of seeing Christ has justified wars, Crusades, "christian politics", popery and a tide of fake christianity, banking on the imputed character of Christ, but never wanting to live the imaprted character of Christ.

You are how you act, not what you claim.

Righteousness is right-doing, nothing else.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pe 2:20 Want indien zij, nadat zij door de kennis van den Heere en Zaligmaker Jezus Christus, de besmettingen der wereld ontvloden zijn, en in dezelve wederom ingewikkeld zijnde, van dezelve overwonnen worden, zo is hun het laatste erger geworden dan het eerste.

Mixed up theology is as much a pollution as any other. If you reject God's light, even if it comes from a woman in 19th century America, then you are stumbling in the dark out of choice. To starve in the Oasis Christ has planted and then to parade around it to draw others out is a sad, sad thing.

[ June 17, 2002, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Ikan ]

Charlene, Avalee and Ikan, please take a closer look at Paul's counsel and insight regarding the difference between keeping the law and keeping the the faith. The two are not one and the same according Paul's theology.

People who set out to keep the law are law breakers, not law keepers. That's exactly what Paul is saying. That's what he was guilty of before he accepted Jesus as his Lord and Saviour.

"He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility." DA 172.1

The only way our life can be in harmony with the principles of the law, the only way we can grow in grace, the only way we can mature in the fruit of the Spirit, is by being connected to the Vine, Jesus Christ. We keep the faith in order to keep the law.

James, your understanding of this truth is actually in harmony with Ellen White. There are no contradictions between her view and the Bible.

Mike,

you certainly know by now, after reading many of my posts that i do not believe we keep the law without Christ. I do not speak fo Avalee Or Ikan but I have not been shown by their posts that they believe that either. Seems your reaching to be in harmony with James and against The teachings of Bible and SOP.

We make choices, Yes. "with God all things are possibe" so do we choose to obey, yes, because Jesus is the Love of our life. Do we follow in His footsteps? Yes, "Let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus". Is true obedience to His laws and statutes a matter of our gritting out teeth, planting our feet and flexing our muscles to obey...NO! "Without me you can do nothing". No one is talking works...we are talking about the "Fruit of faith" which is obedience to all His commands.

You seem to be saying Legalism [Obey to be saved]is wrong.....you is right.

I say we obey because we are saved, that is Keeping the faith that works by love.

There is no way that can be taught from the Bible or the SOP that does away with the commandments of God. Even when written on the Heart.....they are and must be present still.

Your statement above about obedience or disobedience having nothing to do with our salvation....i would like for you to address.

The Signs of the Times---DT- 05-16-95
The Whole Duty of Man
While we are admonished to obedience, we are not to think that we can merit salvation by our good works. Salvation is the free gift of God, and it
is to be received by faith. It is provided for the repentant soul by Christ through the great plan of redemption. But the proof of our love to him, the evidence of our faith, will be found in our obedience to God's holy law. Our Saviour says, "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me; and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." Christ enjoins upon us the keeping of
the commandments because he knows that in keeping them there is great reward, the revealing of a character after the divine similitude."

We are not under the law unless we break it. We don't get a ticket for speeding unless we are speeding. The breakers of the law are condemed because they have broken the law. The doers of the law are God's people for they will do His pleasure. Every command God gives contains the promise of the enabling power of Grace to achive the doing.

[ June 17, 2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Charlene Van Hook ]

Couldn't have said it any better myself, ladies!! Bravo! That's rightly divided the Word.
Charlene and Avalee; from both sides of the country, you have let freedom (the REAL freedom) ring, from sea to shining sea.
We are prisoners sprung from the jail of Sin, because of the sins we have loved to commit. We are released into the Custody of Christ, on probation.

No man can rightly present the law of God without the gospel, or the gospel without the law. The law is the gospel embodied, and the gospel is the law unfolded. The law is the root, the gospel is the fragrant blossom and fruit which it bears.
The Old Testament sheds light upon the New, and the New upon the Old. Each is a revelation of the glory of God in Christ. Both present truths that will continually reveal new depths of meaning to the earnest seeker.

[ June 17, 2002, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Ikan ]

Praise the Lord, for His Word is Life.

James 1:25
"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."

Just for interest:

Matthew Henry's bible comentary on James 1:25

"In hearing the word, we look into it for counsel and direction, and when we study it, it turns to our spiritual life. Those who keep in the law and word of God, are, and shall be, blessed in all their ways. His gracious recompence hereafter, would be connected with his present peace and comfort. Every part of Divine revelation has its use, in bringing the sinner to Christ for salvation, and in directing and encouraging him to walk at liberty, by the Spirit of adoption, according to the holy commands of God. And mark the distinctness, it is not for his deeds, that any man is blessed, but in his deed. It is not
talking, but walking, that will bring us to heaven. Christ will become more precious to the believer's soul, which by his grace will become more fitted for the inheritance of the saints in
light."

God Bless

Charlene, here's what I wrote about the relationship between salvation and obedience:

"Obedience has nothing to with whether or not we deserve salvation.... Our obedience or disobedience does not determine our eternal destiny."

I did not say that obedience has "nothing" to do with salvation. Of course it does. It's the fruit of our salvation. But it's not the basis of our salvation, nor is disobedience the basis of our damnation.

Jesus is the "root" and basis of our salvation, not the law or law keeping. Jesus is the root of our salvation, and obedience and righteousness are some of the fruit.

"Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have been in error, but from the fact that we have neglected heaven-sent opportunities for learning what is truth." {DA 489.5}

We are lost or saved based on whether or not we accept Jesus as personal Saviour. Obedience and righteousness is the fruit of our faith in Jesus, not the other way round (i.e., faith in Jesus is not the fruit of obedience and righteousness).

If you agree with this, then we are in harmony. And we are also in harmony with James Septenno. He's saying the same thing (although I admit he says it in a way that comes across misleading).

Gary.

Quote.
I guess I'm just really dense because there is a dichotomy in the words of James Saptenno that cannot be resolved.

If Christ is in him (James) keeping the law, then how is James not keeping the law? And if James is keeping the law he is condemned to death, for keeping the 10 commandments will kill us according to James.
Unquote.

Firstly, Christ in me is not keeping the law for me but changing my self-love character to his own character of love that seeks no self. When I have his love in my heart, I am able to love my fellow men. The deeds of love conforms with the principle of heaven, is that not enough? Why should there be any law to keep and obey. Throw it all away or abolished all law that exist, my deeds will still conforms with the principle of heaven because it comes from a heart that have no self-love in it.

But if I want to keep and obey the Ten Commandments, the law will legally condemns me for my failure in continually keeping it and fulfils it spiritual demands, and the wages for my failure or my sin is death.

Quote.
James, can Christ be in you keeping the law, and yet law keeping kill you? If Jesus kept the law why doesn't it kill Him too? You have stated again and again that it is sin that makes us want to keep the law. So if it is sin that makes us want to keep the law, then it is sin that caused Christ to keep the law for He is human too.
Unquote.

That is what you don’t understand yet. If God said that love is the fulfillment of the law, then having love in your heart will make your deeds in harmony with the law of God even there is no law for you to keep. So was Christ, for Him there is no law he must keep and obey but generated by his love for mankind, his deeds conforms the principle of heaven.

Quote.
You have a very basic dichotomy in your thinking that, to me at least, cannot be resolved.
Unquote.

For law keepers, to understand how to live by faith is something unthinkable. But don’t think, just believe!

Quote.
James,

When Christ is in you keeping the law is He in His own little enclosed area doing all the law keeping, and you are a separate entity from Him doing all your lawbreaking?

Imagine three circles, one large one, with two smaller ones inside that one. The large one is your body. The two smaller ones as one being your spiritual thinking and actions, and the other being Christ keeping the law. Is this how you see it?

Christ is in you, but doesn't really affect you and your actions because He is in His own distinct place doing his law keeping that doesn't affect you and your actions and you motivations?

The way you describe things this is the only kind of mental picture I can draw from your words.
Unquote.

Why is it so difficult to understand the simple way of living by faith?

Love is the fulfillment of the law; when you have the love of God in your heart, your deeds conforms to the principle of the Kingdom of God. But to have this love, you must live by faith and led by the Spirit, because this love is fruit of the Spirit.

Fruit of the Spirit is “the willing and the doing of God” in you, fruit of the Spirit is Christ righteousness that was imparted in your heart, his love that seeks no self.

Forget about the law and it keeping and obedience, you will never understood the way of living by faith if you stick to it.

And again I say, Christ in me didn’t keep the law for me but changing my heart from a selfish love to a love that seeks no self. Can’t you see the very big difference between it?

In His love

James S

Charlene.

Quote.
James 1:25
"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."
Unquote.

Do you think that the perfect law of liberty is the Ten Commandment? If you think so give me your reason.

What I know that the perfect law of liberty is not the Ten Commandment because in Paul epistle we found that the ten Commandment is the law that lead to condemnation and death, a law that put us under prison or under the bondage of sin.

In His love

James S.

James:
Nadat ik de honderden posts die je op dit forum heb geplaatst heb gelezen en nadat ik heb gezien dat slechts een persoon het deels met je eens is over wat hij denkt dat je probeert te zeggen, moet ik zeggen dat ik dit spelletje niet meespeel. Als je niet de moeite neemt om naar ze te luisteren, of nog belangrijker de dingen die Mrs White duidelijk heeft gezegd of om zonder oogkappen de bijbel te lezen, dan kan ik je zeker niet helpen. Ik zal voor je blijven bidden, maar ik zal geen onderdeel worden van je publiek. Het zou goed voor je zijn om te leren luisteren naar anderen en te begrijpen dat je Engels niet zo gevorderd is als je denkt. Ik denk dat dit liefde in. Dit is mijn laatste post naar jou.

James,

The Signs of the Times----DT- 10-17-95

Christ teaches that we are to recognize our neighbor in every race and condition of men. No distinction is to be made as to who is our neighbor, on the ground of poverty, or wealth, or position. The followers of Christ are to see their neighbor in any one who needs their help. "All ye are brethren." The Lord has not established a kingdom merely for the rich, and the one essential thing for an entrance into his kingdom is Christlikeness of character. The Lawgiver explained the meaning of the divine precepts, and showed that they were not arbitrary requirements, but that in the doing of them there is life; for Christ from the pillar of cloud had distinctly told them that those who did them should live in them. The Ten Commandments are called in the New Testament the royal law of liberty. In obeying the divine precepts, men will assimilate to the divine character; for the character of God is expressed in his holy law. In substituting their own ideas, in erecting their own standard, they will come to misrepresent the Father and Jesus Christ, whom he has sent, coming far short of Christlikeness of character. In erecting a standard for themselves, they will cling to their own deficiencies, practice their former habits, and fall far below the perfection of Christ's character. But through the grace of Christ, we should ever strive to reach the perfect standard."

James, I point you to the "Most Holy Place" in the heavenly sanctuary. The Law of Liberty, the Ten Commandments are the focus of this Holy Place. Judgement is taking place at this very minute. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life are having their lives measured by the Character of Jesus [the ten commandments]. This is what determines life eternal.....does our characters reflect Christ's character that was written on the tables of stone, on our hearts and manifested in the example of Christ in the flesh and imparted to those that overcome by His blood. If so "pardoned" is written by there names then the sins are blotted out during the time of refreshing/latter rain. If we have failed to develop this Character of Christ, revealed in the ten commandments, then our names are blotted out of the book of life and placed in the book of death.

The ten Commandments/Law of Liberty is as essential to salvation as God Himself, because they are the same.

Mike,

What we will always deserve is eternal death. We never obey so we can deserve eternal life, I have made that clear, however, we will never recieve eternal life if we do not obey. Eternal life is a gift from God but he does have requirements. The screening process for heaven is "how much do you love me and your fellow man? Show me by your works" The top four and the bottom six....all obeyed by faith that works by love and the power of Grace.

IF you love me......keep my commandments. This is a deliberate choice. We choose to give God our wills, but we must continue to give our choices to God, moment by moment, He never takes man's choices away from him.

Manuscript Releases Volume Three----PG- 187
To every man, God has assigned a place in His great plan. By truth or falsehood, by folly or wisdom, each is fulfilling a purpose, bringing about certain results. And each, according as he chooses obedience or disobedience, is deciding his own eternal destiny. To every one is given
freedom to act, and upon every one rests the responsibility for his own actions. But our words and actions must pass the test of God's high
standard, or we shall be bound up with the wicked, to receive an eternal retribution.--Ms 36, 1896, pp. 2-4. ("Obedience the Condition of Success," Dec. 9, 1896.)--Released Feb. 12, 1965.

The Faith I Live By----PG- 71
He who chooses a course of disobedience to God's law is deciding his future destiny; he is sowing to the flesh, earning the wages of sin,
even eternal destruction, the opposite of life eternal. Submission to God and obedience to His holy law bring the sure result. "This is life
eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3.

I don't see this concept in James' presentation nor in your agreement with him.

If there is no law...there is no sin. The law is not against us, it is for us, it brings us to the throne of Grace for enabling power to live it and form the character of Christ.

I repeat...we are only condemned by the law if we are law breakers, not law keepers. The law is Holy, Just and Good......It converts the Soul and continues to always be our guidline/standard.

Charlene, thank you for sticking it out with this study. You are indeed a super trooper.

I have a few questions and comments: Are we saved because we obey the law? I'm sure you would agree that we are saved because of what Jesus has done for us. We are saved by faith and not by works.

But what about the flip side of that question: Are we lost because we disobey the law? You see, if we not saved based on our obedience, then how can we be lost based on our disobedience?

I believe the Bible and SOP clearly teach that salvation is matter of being in Christ, and that damnation is matter of not being in Christ.

We are not saved because we obey the law, instead we are able to obey the law because we are saved. We are not lost because we disobey the law, instead we are unable to obey the law because we are lost.

Obedience is the fruit of being in relationship to Jesus, and disobedience is the fruit of not being relationship to Jesus. Accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour is the root of our salvation, and obedience and righteousness is the fruit. Not accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour is the root of our damnation, and disobedience and unrighteousness is the fruit.

The only way we can keep the law is if we keep the faith. If we attempt to keep the law without faith we are in sin. I know you agree with that. What I don't understand is why you believe James Saptenno and I are saying something wrong. Can you please state what you think we believe that is different from what you believe. Thank you.

Mike,
Please understand. I have gone over this on nearly every thread that james is involved in. I have spelled out just where my studies have taken me. I would like to suggest you reread my posts rather than me restating all that I have said. I have made very clear, several times, the answers to the questions you have asked. In fact it surprises me that you ask where we differ....have you really read my posts carefuly, i think the answers are there.

Forgive me if i just don't have the energy right now to rehash it all again.

I am very concerned about James theology on many fronts, his presentations on quite a few subjects are filled with errors. I have gone over these things with James on other forums and he has not moved from his posted position. I pray you not get caught up in the errors of his theology that i have addressed in my posts.

[ June 20, 2002, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Charlene Van Hook ]

Charlene, I am pretty sure you agree with the following quote from my last post:

"We are not saved because we obey the law, instead we are able to obey the law because we are saved. We are not lost because we disobey the law, instead we are unable to obey the law because we are lost."

I am also pretty sure that James Saptenno believes this way too. Thus I am led to conclude that the problems are merely symantics, and that in reality we all believe the same thing.

Mike,

This is what james said:
"All of you have given me your reasoning based on the doctrine and church teaching and the SOP, but I countered it all based on the Scripture."

"As I say I will counter verse by verse to show that the Ten Commandments was over and keeping it will only lead to condemnation and death, but you just ignoring it."

I do not believe in the doctrine of the above quotes and I hope you do not either. James is not a believeing member of our church nor does he uphold our doctrine of faith/enpowering Grace and belief in the Spirit of Prophecy.....And it taints all of his theology.

I will not waste my time reading any more of his error.

Reflecting Christ--- Obedience, the Fruit of Faith
-PG- 274
The so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God is not faith, but presumption. "By grace
are ye saved through faith" (Eph. 2:8). but "faith, if it hath not works, is
dead" (James 2:17). Jesus said of Himself before He came to earth, "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart" (Ps. 40:8). And just before He ascended again to heaven, He declare, "I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love" (John 15:10). The Scriptures says, "Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments" (1 John 2:3). . . ."

Having the law written on our hearts does not do away with the law.....have you noticed there was no answer to my question about the sanctuary that i asked James........I guess the standard of righteousness/God's Character/the law of Liberty/the Ten Commandments , used as the measuring stich during the judgement, in the Most Holy Place does not fit into his theology.

He is not in harmony with the Doctrines of the bible nor the doctrines of the church/truth not with the Spirit of Prophecy.

Fair enough. But do you agree with the following quote:

"We are not saved because we obey the law, instead we are able to obey the law because we are saved. We are not lost because we disobey the law, instead we are unable to obey the law because we are lost."

Mike i will say it in my own words.

Obedience to God's laws is the fruit of faith that works by love. works=chose to obey, through the enabling power of Grace.

Disobedience to the laws of God is the result of sin/disobedience which separates us from the source of love and source of God's enabling power of Grace. When one is not attatched to the vine....he can bear no good fruit.

One will not be saved because he obeys...one does not mertit being saved....Only through the merits of Jesus Christ emparted , and we take hold of His divine nature, that enables us to develop His character/will/obedience, are we saved.

No one will be saved in his 'known' disobedience. We are not saved in our sins, but from our sins.

[ June 21, 2002, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Charlene Van Hook ]

I think that obedience to the Law does not save us on the contrary it condemn us, but disobedience to the law indeed condemn us and make us lost our life and heaven. That’s why the Law must GO because keeping it will not save you but only condemns you and breaking it will surely condemns you, to be substituted with a life after the Spirit by faith in Christ. This is to remain alive and to be fit for heaven.

“But sin will not be your master because you are not under the Law but under grace” – Romans 6:14.

Under grace means God remember our sins and iniquities no more if we remain in Christ by faith. If we are under the law, one single sin will condemn us and death is the wages (as what Adam did). And surely we will do many sins because being under the law empowers sin to work and dominate us since the “power of sin is the Law.”

In his love

James S.

Charlene.

Quote.
HAVING THE LAW WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS DOES NOT DO AWAY WITH THE LAW.....have you noticed there was no answer to my question about the sanctuary that i asked James........I guess the standard of righteousness/God's Character/the law of Liberty/the Ten Commandments , used as the measuring stich during the judgement, in the Most Holy Place does not fit into his theology.
Unquote.

Tell me honestly with common sense, if you have deeds that are in harmony with the law as fruits of the Spirit, does the Law has any meanings to you? If yes, in what part?

If you don’t know how to answer it, then how would you know the truth of the Gospel of Christ?

I will reply to your sanctuary doctrine later.

In His love

James S.

James, I have tried to support you on these threads, but I can no longer do that. You state your ideas too strongly, and I'm beginning to realize that your ideas are actually wrong. You really believe that the law ended at the cross, and that the Sabbath and health laws are no longer necessary. This is a lie, and I hope someday you will discover your mistake.

In the meantime, I am requesting that the moderators of MSDAOL deny you access to this forum in accordance with the rules of this forum.

I think the most of us agree that James theology is not quite right with the Bible. Since this involves his salvation and others who read what he has written I am happy there have been those who have stood for the truth and posted to this.

Today at church I told our Bible Worker about this and asked her if she would give it a try to show James where he errors. This is very important as a person's soul is at stake here. I do not know how long it will take her to answer the email as she is a busy person. I do not know what else she will be able to add as Ikan, John, and Charlene seemed to have covered the errors quite well from the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy.

Gary.

It is not a dichotomy but it is what the Scripture told us which you can’t understand.

If the Law could not justify any one of it Law keepers, what does it mean? It means that no one could satisfy the righteous demands of the Law, so, before the law all Law keepers were guilty and put under it condemnation.

But may be you think, that no one would be justified by the law because justification comes only by faith in Christ. Do you understand the meaning of it? Because no man could achieve justification by the Law, God gave mankind a WAY OUT, which is a justification by faith in Christ who has redeemed us from the sin and it wages.

It is not because of faith in Christ we were justified no matter we keep the law perfectly and fulfils it demands, but because we couldn’t keep and obey it continually and perfectly and fulfils it demands! That is the matter!

Quote.
Do you see your dichotomy yet? Here is your thinking by analogy: A police officer will write me a ticket for breaking the traffic laws if I obey them, but if I disobey the traffic laws I will get a ticket from a police officer for breaking them.
Unquote.

You presented here the way of human logic, but the way of God is not human logic.

Here is my “presentation” of the way of God:

I am walking in road of the law and not making trespasses. In this road of the Law there are many signs, “don’t steal”, “don’t kill”, “don’t commit adultery” etc. I did it perfectly and I didn’t get any penalty in breaking it, but at the end I found out only that I am guilty and Christ at the end of the way of the Law stands as my redeemer and Savior. What is my guilt? It is because those who walk in the way of the Law must have a character of “love that seeks no self in it”, this is their License of driving. Without this “License”, even you did not break any signs or rules, at the end you are guilty because driving without a License.

But if I’m walking in the way of faith, which no signs and rules only the Spirit as my License, would I be found guilty at the end? No way! It is the Spirit which drives me along the way of faith to the gate of heaven and I will be welcome there because I have the Spirit with me, I have the ‘fruits of the Spirit” with me, I have the “love of God that seeks no self in it” with me, my fitness for heaven.

Those who take the way of the Law will be lead to Christ for their guilt and their failures, but once in Christ by faith, the way of the Law is behind (Galatians 3:24-26) to be continued with the way of faith (Romans 7:5) under the leading of the Spirit that will lead us to heaven and enter it.

And in the way of faith there are no rules and signs, just you and the Spirit. Would you like to be under His leading or would you lead your own life. If you are under the leading of the Spirit, you will have deeds that conforms the principle of heaven, that is in harmony with the law demands which no one could achieve through law keeping.

Paul said in Galatians 5:16-18, although we were led by the Spirit but because our nature is sinful, we may act according our sinful flesh from time to time. But this will not judge us and condemn us, because we are not under the Law but under grace (Romans 6:14), that means God will not remember our sins and iniquities Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrew 10: ). As long as we live by faith in Christ under the Spirit guidance, our sinful acts is forgiven and will be remember no more. Only if you continue living in sin the gate of heaven will be closed for you, because you are not led by the Spirit (Romans 8:…; Galatians 4:23).

Thus what is asked from Christ believers after the cross is to live by faith; is to walk in the way of faith and no longer in the way of the Law or it combination (keeping the law with faith) – Read Romans 7:4,5; 8:3,4).

Salvation to all men has been established through Christ redemption on the cross, justification as a free gift based on the grace of God. What remains is would you like to remain alive by living after the Spirit with faith in Christ or would you like to satisfy the need of the flesh by living for self, which means you are not welcome to live in heaven. The Law and obedience to it has no more place in this faith relationship.

In His love

James S.

Avalee.

Many thanks for your consideration, remember, not only my soul is at stake but those to whom I share this idea, IF I AM WRONG.

So far, no one could give me a real biblical support that I’m wrong, the more I understand your counters and replies the more I see that I’m right. I need a good answer based on the bible Scripture and not just based on your opinions and SOP when countering my idea.

What I share here is just another thoughts to read the bible, and I’m sure that it is logic and reasonable and supported with biblical verses. I have given many ways to clarify my idea but what you have given me is your ideas based on church doctrine, which I’m familiar with and shared it “door to door” in my vacation time. And as I have told you that some people have accept my preaching and became an SDA, either from the Protestant church or from the Pentecost church here.

If I’m sure that my ideas is wrong to what I believed in the past 20 years (I was baptized twice, in 1981 and in 1999) then I wouldn’t tell any people. But in my study I found out what I have shared you, the purpose is to make a counter check whether I’m wrong or right. But what I received is just an opinion based on church doctrine and not a direct counters to my ideas.

Mike have given his good ideas and even it is hard for him to understand my ways but I see that he is just one step behind me, for him the Law is still valid as a standard for living and judgment, which I’m not. Only he to can not counter my solid presentation with bible quotes, and if he came to this situation he just said I’m wrong but can not show my errors. Just because my presentation does not conform to what he and you believe, he said I’m wrong. But that is not what I want, show me the errors of my idea and tell me if it conforms the bible.

C’mon, give me the best you can and it is much better if SDA’s bible workers involved and gives me their study on the concept of living by faith according to the Gospel of Christ and not according to men ideas.

I have still a lot ideas and biblical support to back up my idea and if you think that you dare to read it, then let’s discussed it.

For Forum moderators, many thanks for your kind cooperation and consideration to let me share my ideas and many thanks for those good counters that is worth to study.

In His love

James S.

Gary.

Quote.
Hmmm.... How can your character be changed into a character of love that doesn't seek self, and self (sin) still be your motivation for keeping the law? You are very deeply divided in your basic thinking. If Christ is in you changing you, then your motivations have to change to, yet you deny that they do. You can't have it both ways James, either your motivations change, or they don't change. Either Christ in you changes you into His image or it doesn't. And if it does then you keep the law from pure motives, not from selfishness. Your thinking seems schizophrenic in this area.
Unquote.

You still didn’t get it, right?

Christ in me did not lead me to obey his Law, but he work in me to change my character of selfish-love to His love that seeks no self. And that is enough, because my deeds will conforms to the principle of heaven where I’m going to go.

But if you want to keep the Law, that is your own motive and desire, not Christ. And he could not help you, because it is against his mission. Paul said if you were led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law”. This doesn’t mean, if you were led by the Spirit, you are not under condemnation of the Law that you continually break (how is it possible, how could God or His Law justify those who breaks his holy law?), but it means that you were not under the authority of the Law, so not under it judgment and condemnation. You can’t have it both ways Gary, to keep the Law with faith. There is no such idea in the Gospel of Christ, but well stated in the Old Testament before Christ.

In His love

James S.

There is a man named John who keep the Law with faith in Christ and there is another faithful man named Joe who is not under the law and didn’t believe the Ten Commandments has an authority upon Christ believers.

Who will be justified at the end? John or Joe?

If you are Christ believers, I expect answers with Bible back up, if you want.

In His love

James S.

Mike and others.

Tell me, does the fruits of the Spirit conforms with the principle of heaven and fulfils the Law (Ten Commandments) demands or not?

If it does conform, who did it, “you” or the Spirit in you?

Where will we put the Law (Ten Commandments) in a faith relationship with Christ? For obedience? We have fruits of the Spirit! For a standard of living? We have the Spirit in us that lead us! For justification by the Law? That is not possible and we already have God justification as a free gift that brought life! For justification to enter heaven after accepting Christ redemption work with faith? That is also not possible since our obedience was tainted with the love for self and since justification is only by faith in Christ! For judgment and condemnation? Why would we, if Christ has redeemed us and gives our life back? Will he come again to redeem us the second time?

Or do you think that you could keep the Law perfectly and fulfils it righteous demands when you were led by the Spirit? No way, John said if we say that we didn’t sin, we are a liar and the truth is not in us! Paul said that although we were led by the Spirit, we still might do the things we didn’t want to do (Galatians 5:16-18). The fact is, you sin from time to time and maybe the whole time, how do you expect a justification and a freedom from condemnation? Adam sinned once and he died, so, if you sins you must die too. But you will say, Christ has redeemed me from my sins and he will always forgive my sins with his blood. Are you sure? How could he forgive you while you break his holy Law? He forgives our sins and Adam sin through his death on the cross 2000 years ago, so if he must forgive you again for your sins, he must come again as a Redeemer and Savior to be crucified the second time.

God is merciful and abundant in love, forgiving sins, but he could not justify those who break his law and escape them from the Law condemnation.

Christ redemption has justified all men once and for all that brought a second life. It is a fact now that all men will live after death no matter who. Some of them will live forever and some of them will die the second death. Tell me, how could he justify a law keeper that were under condemnation for his failures in continually keeping the Law and fulfils it demands?

The Scripture told us that GOD JUSTIFY THOSE WHO LIVE BY FAITH, NOT THOSE WHO BREAK HIS LAW. Give me your best answer as this is crucial and a very important matter to understand the Gospel of Christ.

In His love

James S.

This is very long I know, but perhaps James will enjoy reading it.I hope he takes the time.
Daryl: This is not as long as 170+ posts, but perhaps it can be more useful to him and others ....

Foreword
IF, after reading this study, you have not gained a correct understanding of what justification by faith really is, then, for you, the purpose of this publication will have failed.
If, after reading this study, you have gained a correct theoretical understanding of this subject then the purpose of this study will still have failed for you.
Justification by faith is an experience.
It is an experience which comes as a result of a correct understanding of what our condemnation is, of what God will do to remove that condemnation, of what we must do to enable Him to do His part, and the doing of what we must do. Then comes the freedom, the peace, the deliverance and the transformation which is the experience of all experiences, the joy of all joys and the fulfilment of all fulfilments. Then the language of the heart will exclaim with David, "Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile." Psalms 32:1, 2.
It is the earnest prayer of the publishers of this study that every reader will be enabled to enter into that which the Lord has for him so that he will find that his life will be filled with the gladness of true, rich and productive Christian living both in this life and in that which is to come.

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JUSTIFIED!
-by Faith

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Chapter One
The Blessedness of Forgiveness
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Everyone of us begins life the same,-a condemned and therefore an unjustified sinner. The fact that the majority of people pass completely through life without ever being aware of this, changes neither the fact nor the awful consequences of it.
The living Spirit of God works continually to bring to all a realization of their status, their condition and of their fearful fate. With the majority He is unsuccessful. With the remainder it is different. To them He is able to bring a realization of something of the awful weight of condemnation which is poised to destroy them utterly and finally.
When the Holy Spirit has been successful in bringing this sense of condemnation, an excellent beginning has been made but, unless the condemned one is then able to understand just what justification really is, what in that work God will do, and what he or she must do, with the understanding of how to do it, then the work of the Holy Spirit will still fall short of delivering that person from condemnation into justification in verity. No fault can be laid to the Holy Spirit for this. The problem lies with the individual and his unwillingness to be taught of the Lord.
When, out of the horror and great darkness which fills the whole consciousness of him who comes to know that he is in fact a guilty, condemned sinner, that person comes to the Saviour and receives the gift of justification by faith, then there is the entering into of the most blessed and wonderful experience known to the human being. It is a blessedness known only to those who have experienced it. It is an experience too deep and wonderful to be described in human language. As one who has received this gift seeks to testify of what it is to him or to her, then he will find himself truly understood only by those who have already passed over the same ground.
David was such an one. He knew what it was to be down in the pit of condemnation. He knew what it meant to be unjustified. He knew what it meant to have the threat of eternal death and of everlasting separation from God and heaven. He knew it.
He knew too what it meant to have that darkness and despair exchanged for the absolute blessedness of sins forgiven, the blessedness of God's justification. Listen to his words of testimony:
“I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
And He hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the Lord." Psalms 40:1-3.
From the depth and blackness of the pit to solid ground and established goings, David had been elevated by the living power of God's forgiveness and justification. What joy and blessedness was his in consequence.
Paul understood the experience of David for he had passed over the same ground exactly. So it was that, when he came to write on this glorious truth of justification by faith, he directed the reader to the witness of David with these words, "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Romans 4:6,7, the citation from David being Psalms 32:1,2.
There are multitudes of people who believe that the Lord has forgiven their sins, but how many really can testify to the blessedness of the man whose sins are forgiven? This blessedness is of God and from God. Those who have it are enjoying great happiness, have sweet peace and are conscious of the approval of God over their lives. This is an experience the like of which there is not another worthy of comparison. This is the joy of all joys, the happiness of all happinesses. Those who then truly and in reality have justification by faith will find springing spontaneously from their thankful hearts the living words of the Psalmist; "Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures forevermore. " Psalms 16:11. This is the life eternal. This is to know "the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom" He has "sent." John 17:3.
Today, the subject of justification by faith and the righteousness of Christ is preached about, testified to, discussed and written up, as at no other time in the history of the religious world. Wherever you turn in church circles, this is the subject of which you will hear the most. It has come to the place where, if the preacher does not mention some aspect of this theme in his presentation, then he is liable to the criticism of leaving Christ Out of his preaching. There is nothing more desirable than that the subject of justification by faith and the righteousness of Christ should be the all absorbing theme at this time when deliverance from the condemnation of sin is so essential to our present and eternal welfare. What is more, we can expect that this will be so, for it is prophesied that "One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other, Christ our righteousness." Review and Herald Extra, December 23, 1890.
It would appear that this prophecy is receiving a direct and striking fulfilment in all the churches today as, on every hand, preachers and writers devote time and skill to the discussion of this theme. Nothing is more certain than that their efforts would be the fulfilment of this prophecy if all that is presented on this subject is indeed a true and accurate presentation of justification by faith. However, that which will most certainly give the honest and sincere searcher for truth some second thoughts, is the fact that not all of these writers and teachers are agreed as to what is the truth on this matter. Therefore some of them at David was such an one. He knew what it was to be down in the pit of condemnation. He knew what it meant to be unjustified. He knew what it meant to have the threat of eternal death and of everlasting separation from God and heaven. He knew it.
He knew too what it meant to have that darkness and despair exchanged for the absolute blessedness of sins forgiven, the blessedness of God's justification. Listen to his words of testimony:
“I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
And He hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the Lord." Psalms 40:1-3.
From the depth and blackness of the pit to solid ground and established goings, David had been elevated by the living power of God's forgiveness and justification. What joy and blessedness was his in consequence.
Paul understood the experience of David for he had passed over the same ground exactly. So it was that, when he came to write on this glorious truth of justification by faith, he directed the reader to the witness of David with these words, "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Romans 4:6,7, the citation from David being Psalms 32:1,2.
There are multitudes of people who believe that the Lord has forgiven their sins, but how many really can testify to the blessedness of the man whose sins are forgiven? This blessedness is of God and from God. Those who have it are enjoying great happiness, have sweet peace and are conscious of the approval of God over their lives. This is an experience the like of which there is not another worthy of comparison. This is the joy of all joys, the happiness of all happinesses. Those who then truly and in reality have justification by faith will find springing spontaneously from their thankful hearts the living words of the Psalmist; "Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures forevermore. " Psalms 16:11. This is the life eternal. This is to know "the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom" He has "sent." John 17:3.
Today, the subject of justification by faith and the righteousness of Christ is preached about, testified to, discussed and written up, as at no other time in the history of the religious world. Wherever you turn in church circles, this is the subject of which you will hear the most. It has come to the place where, if the preacher does not mention some aspect of this theme in his presentation, then he is liable to the criticism of leaving Christ Out of his preaching. There is nothing more desirable than that the subject of justification by faith and the righteousness of Christ should be the all absorbing theme at this time when deliverance from the condemnation of sin is so essential to our present and eternal welfare. What is more, we can expect that this will be so, for it is prophesied that "One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other, Christ our righteousness." Review and Herald Extra, December 23, 1890.
It would appear that this prophecy is receiving a direct and striking fulfilment in all the churches today as, on every hand, preachers and writers devote time and skill to the discussion of this theme. Nothing is more certain than that their efforts would be the fulfilment of this prophecy if all that is presented on this subject is indeed a true and accurate presentation of justification by faith. However, that which will most certainly give the honest and sincere searcher for truth some second thoughts, is the fact that not all of these writers and teachers are agreed as to what is the truth on this matter. Therefore some of them at least have to be wrong so that, as such, their teachings cannot be a fulfilment of the prophecy but rather a counterfeit of the fulfilment.
To the honest, the serious and the thoughtful student and observer, it is clear that all is not what it appears to be, especially as he is aware of the warnings in the Scriptures of the deceptions in the last days which will so closely counterfeit the real as to deceive all but the very elect. It is evident that there is a teaching of justification by faith which is the very truth of God, and there is a teaching of justification by faith which is an invention of the devil to lead the unwary astray.
So it is then, that it is necessary to set forth this subject in such clear lines that not only will the reader understand just what justification by faith really is but will also be able to enter right into the very blessedness of the experience of it as it is in Jesus; to know what fulness of joy is; to know the peace of God and the love of God; to know what it means to have pleasures forevermore; and to have the life eternal. In this study it is necessary to set forth just what the condemnation is under which the sinner stands, so that the area of his need is clearly understood. It is necessary to set forth what God will do to meet that need, and finally how the sinner can come to God to receive that which God desires to give to him.

SEEMlNG CONTRADICTIONS.

The very moment in which an investigation is made into this subject, it is found that there is one set of texts and statements which sets forth justification as being one thing, and another set which sets forth justification as being something else. The two different expressions cannot be made to say the same thing. They are quite different and in fact opposite. The usual solution is to discard the one set and to make the other the full explanation of this all important theme. This is a very convenient and easy way out, but it is not the way for the true student of the Word of God.
With the true child of God, every verse and every statement which bears upon a given subject must have its place, must be accepted as it reads, and must be understood so that there is no contradiction with the seemingly opposite statements and texts. The true child of God works from the understanding that there can only be harmony in the word of God so that any contradictions which appear are never real but only apparent. He knows that the fault does not lie with the word of God or with the Spirit of God but with himself. So he searches prayerfully and trustingly until the answer is found, knowing that it will be found.
In setting out the great truth of Justification by Faith, the apostle Paul refers us to the witness of the Scriptures in regard to the life of Abraham. 'What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 4:1-5.
The important words which appear in this passage are the words counted" and "reckoned." "His faith is counted for righteousness." The plain intimation here is that he is unable to provide righteousness for he is without it, so that, in order for him to be accepted before God, he must bring something else which is counted in the place of righteousness. It will be seen that it will not be faith itself but rather what faith brings him which is counted in the place of righteousness.
The whole question is as to how Abraham and thus anyone else is justified. Paul declares that it is certainly not by works. In fact it cannot be, for man is entirely incapable himself, of producing any good works at all. Thus it is that while the law does require perfect and faultless righteousness, this the sinner cannot give. For this reason he stands, under condemnation. In order to be justified, he must have righteousness, but seeing that he has none of his own to give, then he must have that of Another's reckoned or counted to him as a credit. Thus he stands, not in his own righteousness but in that of Another's, even of Christ's. Thus he stands before God, not as having never sinned, but as though he had never sinned. This is the way in which faith is accounted righteousness.
The truth of this is clearly explained in the following statement. "The law demands righteousness, and this the sinner owes to the law; but he is incapable of rendering it. The only way in which he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ, and the Lord places the obedience of His Son to the sinner's account Christ's righteousness is accepted in place of man's failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as He loves His Son. This is how faith is accounted righteousness; and the pardoned soul goes on from grace to grace, from light to a greater light. He can say with rejoicing, 'Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.' (Titus 3:5-7)." Selected Messages 1:367. Originally The Review and Herald, November 4, 1890.
The same thought is expressed again in these words: “It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey a holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." Steps to Christ, 62.
Both of these statements declare the same truth with equal clarity. They leave no doubt as to what Paul was seeking to say in Romans 4:1-5. Simply and briefly stated it is as follows:
The sinner stands before God condemned because of the load of all the unrighteousness of which he is guilty throughout the whole of his previous living. He cannot of himself atone for all this, because he cannot offer righteousness to meet the claims of the holy law, so, when he fulfils the conditions of true repentance and acceptable confession, Jesus steps in and transfers all that guilt to Himself while He transfers the credit of His own righteousness to the sinner's account.
Then the sinner stands before God accounted as righteous,-as though in fact he were righteous,-as if he had never sinned.
There is a decided difference between saying that he is righteous and saying he is as though or as if he were righteous. To state the former is to confirm that the person has entered into the state of being righteous. It is a description of the condition of that person as he now is.
The second declaration wherein it is declared that he is as though he were righteous, is to acknowledge that he is not righteous in himself at all any more than he was before. He is only accounted to be such without actually being such. Thus he stands before God as though he were righteous but not as a righteous person.
The simple, inescapable message of the statements just quoted, then, is that a person is justified without being made righteous.
There is a great and beautiful truth in this. It is a truth which, when once understood, received and experienced, brings great rejoicing to the heart and wonderful peace to the whole person. Consequently, there are those who build their whole teaching of justification by faith on these statements.
But, they are not the only texts and statements in the inspired Word, which throw light on the subject. There are others which seem to present a contradictory picture. These too must be studied with care and received just as they read. They are there because the Holy Spirit, as the great inspiration of the Bible, put them there. He put them there, not to confuse and mislead, but to reveal to us the whole truth on the subject No study of justification by faith would be complete without consideration of these statements. Therefore we shall turn to them as well.

Paul, the great exponent of this theme, wrote, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1.
To be justified by faith then is to have peace with God. Now it is absolutely impossible to have peace with God and enmity against God at one and the same time. Therefore, whatever enmity was present before justification, is removed at justification in order for there to be peace with God at justification. This then raises the question as to what enmity against God exists in us before we are brought into peace with God.
Is that enmity merely and only the guilt of a long catalogue of sins committed in the past so that when the guilt has been removed from us to Christ, and His righteousness is accounted to us, we have peace with God? Or, is it perhaps a mental attitude of hostility against God? or, is it the setting of a perverse will against Him?

The Scriptures do not say so, but rather name something else as being that which is enmity against God. "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7.
Here it is the carnal mind which is identified as being the enmity against God. It is to be noted here that the verse does not say that the carnal mind is at enmity, but that it is the enmity. This distinction is most important in the understanding of this Scripture.
In 1893, A.T. Jones was preaching to the assembled delegates at the General Conference session in Minneapolis, Minnesota, when he came to the discussion of this verse. This is how the discourse went at this point.
"Now Romans 8:6,7. 'For to be carnally minded is death.' What is the condition of that man who has only the natural mind? (Congregation: 'Dead.') 'But to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind (the natural mind) is' AT enmity with God. (Congregation: 'No! is enmity against God.') No; it is not at enmity with God; but ft itself, is enmity. It 'is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God,' until the man is converted? (Congregation: 'neither indeed can be') Can't be? Cannot God make that mind subject to His law? (Congregation: 'No.') Now, can't the Lord make that mind that is in you and me-the natural mind-can't He make that subject to His law? (Congregation: 'No.') What is that mind? It is enmity against God. Cannot the Lord make that which is enmity against Him,-can't He make it love for him? (Congregation: 'No.')
"There is the point: if it were at enmity, then it might be reconciled, because the thing that would make it at enmity would be the source of the trouble. And therefore, take away the source of the trouble, then the thing that is at enmity would be reconciled. We are at enmity; but when he takes the enmity away, we are reconciled to God. In this matter of the carnal mind though, there is nothing between; it is the thing itself. That is the root.
"Then it cannot be subject to the law of God. The only thing that can be done with it, is to destroy it, uproot it, banish it, annihilate it. Whose mind is it? (Congregation: 'Satan's.') it is the mind of self and that is of Satan. Well then, what can a man do in the way of righteousness? What can be done in him, even, in the way of righteousness, until that other mind is there? (Congregation: 'Nothing.')" A.T. Jones, 7893 General Conference Bulletin, 260. Emphasis original
Thus it stands clearly stated in the Scriptures that the carnal mind is, itself, in its very nature and essence, enmity against God. As darkness is the antithesis of light and, as it is impossible for the one to dwell in the presence of the other, so the carnal mind is enmity against God.
Therefore, each and every person who has the carnal mind, at the same time, has what that carnal mind is, - enmity against God. If then he has enmity against God, then he does not have peace with God and therefore is not justified, for to be justified is to have peace with God, not enmity against God. It is quite impossible to have the two at the same time. Either he has the carnal mind which is enmity against God and is still under condemnation, or he has the new mind which is peace with God, and is therefore justified.
Justification then, according to these Scriptures, Romans 8:7 and 5:1, involves the actual doing of something in the person. It involves the taking away of the old carnal mind and the replacing of it with the new mind, even the mind, "which was also in Christ Jesus." Philippians 2:5. In short it is the making of a person to be righteous.
This is not an act of accounting or reckoning so that the person stands before God as if he had not sinned, as though he were righteous. This is an act of making, so that the person does stand before God righteous in fact for if he has the divine mind, even the mind of Christ, then he has a righteous mind indeed.
The most commonly held concept is that this work of making a person to be righteous, is the work of sanctification. But Paul does not say in Romans 5:1, that "being sanctified by faith we have peace with God." He declares that being justified by faith we have peace with God. Therefore, it follows that this work of taking out the enmity which is the carnal mind, and replacing it with the mind of Christ which is peace with God is the work of justification.
The thought that justification does indeed include this work is well supported by the following statements.
"For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us." Ephesians 2:14.
This is saying far more than that Jesus is our Peacemaker. By taking upon Himself the full burden of our iniquity while crediting His righteousness to our account, it is true that He is acting as a peacemaker between us and God. The Scripture goes beyond that however, when it declares that He is our peace.
It is a truth which must not be overlooked that peace with God is not merely a reckoning or accounting, but it is an actual state of being. Jesus personally is our peace. To have peace with God is to have Him, and to have Jesus Christ is to have His very life reproduced within us. It is to have fulfilled in our experience the appeal of Paul, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." Philippians 2:5.
When that prayer of Paul's is fulfilled in the life then the words of 2 Corinthians 5:17 become truth in the believer's experience. “If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
To be in Christ is to be justified. To be justified is to be a new creature or a new creation. To be a new creation is to have been made or created again into the image of God. It involves the taking away of the old so that the new might replace it. This is the work of justification.
Perhaps the strongest and clearest text in the whole of the Scriptures to state that justification is the making of a person to be righteous, is found in Romans 8:1,2. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
To say that "There is therefore now no condemnation," is precisely the same as saying, "There is therefore now justification," for if there is no condemnation, then there is certainly justification.
Here, Paul does not stop with telling us that at this point there is now justification. He tells us why there is justification. He tells us what has been done to bring about this condition of being justified. It is worthy of notice that in this case he makes no reference simply to being pardoned, or forgiven, for the past actions of sins. Instead he speaks of being free from that law of sin and death, which, when it was' previously in his members, controlled him against his will. In fact the whole of Romans 7 is devoted to the description of the unhappy slavery of the man who has the old nature within him, that enmity against God, which controlled him against his will and which could not be brought under subjection to the law of God.
"There is therefore now no condemnation. . for the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." To state the same again in other words we can say, There is therefore now justification, because Jesus has delivered us from the old law of sin and death.
That deliverance is not a judicial act of forgiveness. The law of sin and death, as is made clear in Romans 7, is a power within the person which dominates him to the place where he cannot do that which he knows he should do and that which he desires to do. That law of sin and death is that which Paul calls the carnal mind in Romans 8:7. It is not subject to the law of God and cannot in any way be made to be. There is only one possible way of dealing with it and that is to have it eradicated and destroyed. This is what Christ does when He sets us free from the law of sin and death. This is the act of transforming love which purifies the soul and recreates the believer into the image of Christ it' is when this work is done that there is now no condemnation. It is when this work is done that the believer is justified.
This is so clear, for the Scriptures say, "There is therefore now no condemnation [Justification].... for the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
There could be no stronger and clearer text to show that the work of transforming the individual from the old to the new, that is, the actual making of the person to be righteous, is the work of justification and there is no justification without this work being done.
The truth of this is most plainly declared in these words: “’Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.' John 3:3. He may conjecture and imagine, but without the eye of faith he cannot see the treasure. Christ gave His life to secure for us this inestimable treasure; but without regeneration through faith in His blood, there is no remission of sins, no treasure for any perishing soul." Christ's Object Lessons, 112,113.
The dominant thought in this statement to which attention is here drawn is this: "Without regeneration. . .there is no remission," in fact, there is no treasure at all for any perishing soul.
Only as there is a clear understanding of what regeneration and remission are, will the true force of these words be appreciated. Regeneration is in no sense of the word a reckoning or an accounting. To generate is to give life in the first case as the Lord did for man back in the Garden of Eden as it is written, "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens." Genesis 2:4. Man was a part of that work of generation and, in his generation or being called into existence, God made him like unto himself so that he bore God's image, both in outward resemblance and in character. See Patriarchs and Prophets, 45.
There is no difference between the work of generation and the work of regeneration, except that to generate is to do it the first time, and to regenerate is to do it all over again the second time. Regeneration is the repeating of the work of generation. It is to be made righteous. Otherwise it is called the new birth, the recreation or the revival. Whatever expression is used the meaning intended to be conveyed is that a new life has begun in actual fact. It is not a make-believe or a pretense. It is just as true in the spiritual realm as the birth of a child is the entry of a new life into the world, in the physical world.
Because this new birth, this recreation, or this regeneration is the creative work of God, then that which comes from His creative hand is just as perfect as it was in the first creation in the Garden of Eden. It is to be understood by the student at this point that this work of creation is limited to the spiritual nature in man and does not extend at this time to the physical nature even though it is in desperate need of regeneration also. It, however, must wait till the redemption of the body at the second coming of Christ. Then it will be regenerated or recreated as it was generated in the first creation and as the spiritual life may be regenerated in the present work of recreation. The strength and power of this word to describe the great and wonderful act of actual creation wherein the very life and nature of Christ is reproduced within the individual, must never be weakened or limited, but should be understood with greater and still greater awareness of how great that work really is. When this is understood, then it will be understood that the Lord actually makes a person to be righteous when He recreates that person into the image of God again.
On the other hand the word remission means literally to send away or to send back. The guilt and the ultimate responsibility for all sin rests with Satan, and in the end the sins of all the truly repentant will be sent back upon him through the service of the sanctuary. There the sins are lodged temporarily and provisionally until they are eventually placed upon the scapegoat.
Remission then is understood quite correctly to be the work of the forgiveness of sins or the work of justification.
Once the terms used in the statement are defined, then the statement itself can be understood. Very distinctly and concisely it declares that if there has been no work of regeneration done so that the person has been made righteous, then there has been no remission or justification either. In no way can the statement be made to read that the work of regeneration is the work of sanctification which follows the work of justification, because the statement does not say that once there has been the remission of sins or justification, then the work of regeneration follows.
It is the opposite which is stated. It is saying that unless there has been regeneration which is the work of being made righteous, then there is no remission or justification. Therefore, in order to be justified one must be regenerated. In other words, being regenerated is the actual act of being justified. Later in this study there will be quoted a statement which actually says this.
Therefore, unless a person has actually been made righteous by the recreative power of God, then that person as certainly has not been justified. This is the message of this statement and as such stands in perfect agreement with the message of Romans 5:1. These references are just as clear in their statement of the truth that justification is the work of being made righteous as the others formerly quoted are that a person is reckoned or accounted righteous so that he stands only as if, and as though, he were righteous.
It is to be noted that the former statements dealing with justification as being a work of accounting said nothing about its being at the same time a work of making or of recreating. Likewise those which speak of its being a work of regeneration say nothing of its being a work of reckoning or of accounting. Each set as it deals with the concept which it is designed to present, sets forth that position as if it was the only one to be presented. This has led some to lay hold of the one or the other as being the work of justification while they ignore or even deny the other. But there is nothing unusual in the way of Scripture presentation here for it is the way of Scripture to deal with the one point at a given time and place and with the other in another given time and place. It is left with the student to bring it together as a balanced whole.
It is now opportune to consider a statement which expresses the same thought obtained earlier in this study from the comparison of Romans 5:1 and 8:7. It is found in Steps to Christ, 49. The statement deals firstly with the sinner's condition and need and then raises the question as to how that need can be filled. It is in this closing thought in the paragraph that there is to be found expressed the same truth as from Romans 5:1 and 8:7.
"As your conscience has been quickened by the Holy Spirit, you have seen something of the evil of sin, of its power, its guilt, its woe; and you look upon it with abhorrence. You feel that sin has separated you from God, that you are in bondage to the power of evil. The more you struggle to escape the more your realize your helplessness. Your motives are impure; your heart is unclean. You see that your life has been filled with selfishness and sin. You long to be forgiven, to be cleansed, to be set free. Harmony with God, likeness to Him-what can you do to obtain it?"
Close attention should be paid to the closing sentence of the statement. The very first phrase is "Harmony with God." Harmony with God is peace with God and is the very same peace spoken of in Romans 5:1. The study of this verse with Romans 8:7 showed that to have that peace with God necessitated the removal of the enmity. It became clear that as surely as the enmity was a mind, so the peace had also to be a mind. It could not be the same one for the verse declared the impossibility of the carnal mind ever being subject to the law of God in any place or under any circumstances. Therefore it had to be another mind which is at peace with God. That mind is the mind of Christ. It is His life and nature as it is reproduced in us by the recreating power of the Holy Spirit
The second phrase in the statement lust quoted above is "likeness to Him," Likeness to Him does not indicate a work of reckoning or of accounting. On the contrary it indicates that there has been a work of transformation so that the individual has now become like the Saviour in his actual state of being. This is not a standing of perfection, but an actual state of perfection. Again let it be repeated that no reference is here being made to perfection of the flesh at this time for that must wait till the advent of Christ. The reference is to the spiritual nature. The human nature is not changed but a supernatural element is brought into human nature. "When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work bringing a supernatural element into human nature." Desire of Ages 324.
As this statement, "Harmony with God, likeness to Him,-what can you do to obtain it?" is read, there is a strong tendency to think of that which is referred to here as being two different things. Harmony with God would be looked upon as being one thing and would be connected with justification. Likeness to God would be looked upon as a separate and subsequent work and would be connected with sanctification.
But there is in the very construction of the sentence the denial of any such idea. If harmony with God and likeness to Him are two different things, then in the very first case there should be the conjunction "and" between the two so that it would read, "Harmony with God and likeness to Him.. ." instead, the second is laid down as if it was a restatement in other words of what was already in the first phrase, as in fact it actually is. The truth of this is finally verified in the use of the final word in the sentence-the word, “It."
If harmony with God and likeness to Him were two separate and distinct blessings from God, then the whole sentence would have had to read, "Harmony with God and likeness to him,-what can you do to obtain them."
But it does not read this way and the fact that it does not, conveys, as it must, a different meaning from that which it would if it did read that way. See again exactly how it reads and believe it exactly as it reads. "Harmony with God, likeness to Him-what can you do to obtain ft." The use of that singular pronoun at the end of the sentence makes it very clear that harmony with God and likeness to Him, are not two things but the same thing exactly.
How clearly this shows that justification involves the actual making of a person to be righteous. Romans 5:1 clearly states that being justified; we have peace with God. Therefore, to have harmony with God, or to have peace with God, is to be justified.
Harmony with God and likeness to Him are one and the same thing, because Christ is our peace. To have Christ is to have His very life. To have His life is to have His righteousness. To have His righteousness is to be righteous in very fact. When a person has this righteousness then there is no need for him to stand as if or as though he were righteous for he is righteous in fact.
There is a great deal more evidence which may be presented on this aspect of justification to prove that justification is an act of making a person righteous, but sufficient has been presented to show that it is so, and to show that there are two sets of statements and texts bearing upon this subject.
One of these sets of texts and statements presents justification as d legal action whereby righteousness is accounted or reckoned to the sinner so that he stands before God not as being righteous but as though or as if he were righteous.
On the other hand, there is the other set of statements and texts which declare that justification is a work which involves the making of a person to be righteous. These leave the definite impression that if a person is made to be righteous then why should he stand before God as if he were righteous instead of as being righteous.
Now, as honest Christians, we must believe both sets just as they read, and yet at the same time come to the place where there is perfect harmony between both even though there is a seeming contradiction between them.

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Chapter Two
Being Made Righteous
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Thus far, statements have been considered which declare that justification is the accounting of a man to be righteous, and statements have been read which show that justification is the making of a man to be righteous. Let it be emphasized that the statements which spoke of a man being made righteous did not refer to this act as the work of sanctification but as the work of justification.
The question now arises as to how we shall understand these two different descriptions of what justification is, especially when they appear to be in contradiction to each other. It can only be concluded that if the word of God declares that justification is the reckoning of a man to be righteous, so that he stands before God as if and as though he had not sinned and was righteous, then this is what justification has to be.
Likewise, when the same Word of God declares that justification is the making of a man to be righteous, so that he is actually righteous before God, then again this is what justification has to be.
The fact is that justification is both accounting and making. It has to be both for there is more than one need to be met in order to justify the person so that unless both of these works have been done, then the person still remains under condemnation. The problem is that the understanding of the extent of the condemnation levelled at the sinner has been too narrow and too limited, with the result that the understanding of what God will do has also been too narrow and limited. The time is when, for most, the understanding of what God's forgiveness and justification are, has to be greatly broadened and corrected.
The fact of this is verified in the following words, "But forgiveness has a broader meaning than many suppose. “Mount of Blessing, 114. Unless today we are prepared to feel that our spiritual condition is much better than that of the believers back in 1889, then the following words still come as a warning to us today, "There is not one in one hundred who understands for himself the Bible truth on this subject (justification by faith) that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare." Review and Herald, September 3, 1889.
In 1889, the people to whom those words were first addressed thought that they did understand for themselves the truth on this subject of justification by faith. But the Word of the living God, the testimony of the True Witness declared otherwise. Therefore, we today must be prepared to take a very close and searching look at our own understanding and experience to see if we really do understand for ourselves the truth on this subject, for it will be a fearful awakening when it is discovered too late that we had but a supposed and not a real understanding of' this subject.
When that corrected and broadened meaning of what justification by faith fully and truly is, has been grasped by the hungering thirsting soul, it will be seen indeed that "Forgiveness has a broader meaning than many suppose. When God gives the promise that He 'will abundantly pardon,' He adds, as if the meaning of that promise exceeds all that we could comprehend: 'My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.' isaiah 55:7-9." Mount of Blessing, 114.
There is altogether too much of a tendency to estimate the works of God in the light of the works of man, so that when we think in terms of God's justification, we evaluate it in the light of man's way of justification. This is thinking man's thoughts after him, whereas we must come to the place where we think God's thoughts after Him.
As we come to think God's thoughts after Him, it will be seen that "God's forgiveness is not merely a judicial act by which He sets us free from condemnation. It is not only forgiveness for sin, but reclaiming from sin. It is the outflow of redeeming love that transforms the heart. David had the true conception of forgiveness when he prayed, 'Create in me a clean heart, 0 God; and renew a right spirit within me.' Psalms 51:10. And again he says, 'As far as the east is from the west, so far hath He removed our transgressions from us.' Psalms 103:12." Mount of Blessing 114. Emphasis original.
It is necessary to read these words to see exactly what they say. In the first sentence it is to be seen that the statement does not say that forgiveness is not a judicial act, but rather that it is not merely a judicial act. This then is to say that it is a judicial act but not that alone. It is a judicial act and something more than that. It is not one work but two. “It is not only forgiveness for sin but reclaiming from sin." To forgive for sin is one thing. This is the act of God in reckoning or accounting the person to be righteous so that he stands before the law as if and as though he had never sinned and was righteous in fact.
To reclaim from sin is another and different work. This is the making of a man to be righteous so that he stands before God not as though he were righteous but righteous in very fact. In doing this aspect of the work, justification or God's forgiveness “Is the outflow of redeeming love that transforms the heart."
It must be recognized that for those who have thought for so long of God's forgiveness being nothing more or less than a judicial act whereby we are set free from condemnation, it must be difficult to receive the concept of forgiveness as being the outflowing of the love of God, which in turn is the very creative life and power of God, into the sin-diseased soul of the repentant one, to cleanse out the evil of the old life with its enmity against God, and to replace it with the life of God Himself. Yet, if the plain words of this statement are to be believed, then this is exactly what the forgiveness of God, and therefore, what the justification of God is.
"David had the true concept of forgiveness when he prayed, 'Create in me a clean heart, 0 God, and renew a right spirit within me.'
The very fact that it is stated that David had the true concept of forgiveness when he prayed that prayer, is to say in effect that there are other than the true concept of justification. No doubt there are but few today who do have the concept which David held. Very few indeed would ever identify the work of actually creating within the person of a new heart, as being the work of forgiveness or of justification. Yet, only those who can do this in truth and sincerity, have a true concept of justification.
It is the very purpose of this study to make quite clear that the work of God's justification involves not only the accounting of the righteousness of Christ to the sinner so that he obtains the forgiveness for his sins, but also the actual work of taking away the sinfulness of that man so that, the enmity being removed, he has peace with God. It is the act of creating in him of a new heart. That act is not the persuading of him to accept new beliefs and attitudes. It is much more than that for the act of persuading is not an act of creating or of making. To create the new heart means just what it says, —to create.
Therefore, as surely as justification is both forgiveness for sin and reclaiming from sin, it is not a single but a double work. As surely as it is a double work, so surely is it a double solution and as surely as there are two solutions, then there must be two problems of condemnation to be dealt with. This is the only conclusion which can be drawn and it is entirely a correct one. There are two condemnations hanging over the head of the unrepentant sinner, both of which must be dealt with before that person can be justified.
The twofold nature of our need is neatly stated in the following words: "You cannot atone for your past sins, you cannot change your heart and make yourself holy." Steps to Christ, 51.
It is to be noted that the context of this statement is the description of the way in which we are to believe in Him for the forgiveness of sins. The previous paragraph begins with these words, "From the simple Bible account of how Jesus healed the sick, we may learn something about how to believe in Him for the forgiveness of sins." Then there follows the story of the man at the pool of Bethesda and his healing. Then we are told that as that man was sick, so we are sinners in the words, “In like manner you are a sinner." in other words, as that man was sick physically, so we are sick spiritually. As that man needed the healing power of God, so we too need the healing power of God for our forgiveness. It must again be emphasized that the context of the whole statement is not about sanctification, but about forgiveness which is justification.
As one in need of justification we are told that we cannot do either of the two things needed in order to bring us to the place where we have obtained God's forgiveness or justification. Those two things are once again, "You cannot atone for your past sins;" and "You cannot change your heart and make yourself holy." There are the two great needs of the unjustified. The first need is to deal with the awesome guilt accumulated because of the deeds of the whole of our past lives. The second is the dealing with the terrible condition of the heart as at the present time.
These are two different problems which, as we shall better see as this study progresses, require two different solutions. The solution which takes care of the one will not take care of the other. In the very nature of the case as it stands this must be so.
Firstly let consideration be given to all the sins of the past. Let the question be asked as to what is the penalty which hangs over the head of the unrepentant sinner on account of all the evil deeds committed in the past? The answer to that question must be and is that death is the penalty for those sins. In fact, if only one sin had been committed then death is the penalty of that one sin. But no man has ever lived who has been guilty of only one sin. All of us have committed many sins, the penalty for each of which is death eternal.
This is a truth so universally understood by God's people, professed or true, that there is no need to spend a great deal of time and space on it here. All such understand that "the wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23.
But what is not so readily understood in the religious world of today, where the emphasis is so predominantly on what we do, is that we are also under condemnation for what we are. The penalty for that is also death. This means that the very moment a child is born, before he has even committed that very first wrong action, he is already under condemnation of death, not because of what he has done, for as yet he has done nothing, but because of what he is. "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalms 51:5.
When, as is always the case, he begins to commit the actions -of sin, then he adds to the already existing condemnation unto eternal death, another condemnation unto eternal death. The first condemnation unto eternal death was for what he is and the second is for what he does. It is for this reason that we need atonement or forgiveness for our past sins to remove this source of condemnation, and we need to have our hearts changed and to be made holy in order to remove the second cause of condemnation. Thus it is that justification has to be both an accounting and a making. Both of these are the works of God for "You cannot atone for your past sins; you cannot change your heart and make yourself holy. But God promises to do all this for you through Christ." Steps to Christ, 51.
There is the clear promise from God Himself that He will do both of these works for you. He will atone for your past sins thus taking care of that source of condemnation. He will change your heart and make you holy, thus taking care of that source of condemnation. Then when He has done both, you will be justified.
Now at this stage it is essential that none gain the impression that from that point on there is no further work of grace to be done for the individual. There is as yet a great deal of work to be done both for and by the individual from justification on. There is before him the great work of reformation during which the unknown sins are brought to view in the form of old ideas and theories, habits and practices which carry over from the old schooling in the colleges of Satan. The scope of this further work is dealt with in our other publication entitled Revival and Reformation, the study of which will show that this paper is not teaching a once saved, completely and always saved doctrine. This study is dealing with what justification is, namely both the work of accounting and the work of making.
The reason as to why it is that the average person has failed to understand that God's justification is concerned not only with what we have done but also with what we are, is because we have been thinking of heavenly things in terms of earthly things. That is, as we have sought to understand God's justification, we have thought of it as being the same as the justification meted out in earthly courts of law. But, between the two there is a very great difference, a difference which if not understood will cause us to have very narrow and limited concepts of God's justification.
The essential difference between the earthly judge and the heavenly judge is that while the earthly is concerned only with what the suspected man did or did not do, the heavenly court is concerned with much more than that, even with what the man is in himself. Thus it is that a man may have the most evil hatred in his heart against another man together with a very real desire to murder the other, yet he will stand justified in a court of law provided that he has not actually committed the murder.
But this is not so in the courts of heaven. While that hatred is there and while the desire to end the life of the other is there, irrespective of whether he ever actually commits the crime or not, that man stands under eternal condemnation of death. While such an one would stand justified and uncondemned in an earthly court, he would stand unjustified and condemned in the heavenly court.
This difference must be kept very clearly in mind. It is most dangerous to think in terms of God's ways and of man's ways as being the same. They are not, for they are different. The Lord, recognizing the tendency for man to understand the ways of God as being the same as the ways of men, warned us of this danger in these words, "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." isaiah 55:8,9. Therefore, as surely as we think of God's ways as being the same as man's ways, we can know that we are wrong.
Jesus made it very plain that the law condemns a man before he actually does the deed. "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery already with her in his heart." Matthew 5:27,28. Here the Great Teacher range it quite plain to all that when we think only of the man who had done the deed as being the one under condemnation, that we have a very limited and narrow concept of the far reaching claims of the holy law. With God, the condemnation began, not with the action, but with the condition of the heart itself. When the desire was there, that man was condemned already and needed already to have the justification of God irrespective of whether he ever actually committed the deed or not.
So it was that the apostle John stated that "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15.
Thus this apostle showed his understanding of God's condemnation as being that which reaches beyond the doing to the being, it is clear that the apostle Paul also understood this as the following quotation shows:
"Paul dwelt especially upon the far-reaching claims of God's law. He showed how it extends to the deep secrets of man's moral nature and throws a flood of light upon that which has been concealed from the sight and knowledge of men. What the hands may do or the tongue may utter-what the outer life reveals-but imperfectly shows man's moral character. The law searches his thoughts, motives, and purposes. The dark passions that lie hidden from the sight of men, the jealousy, hatred, lust, and ambition, the evil deeds meditated upon in the dark recesses of the soul, yet never executed for want of opportunity-all these God's law condemns. "The Acts of the Apostles, 424.
No clearer words than these are needed to reveal the extent to which the condemnation of the law reaches. It condemns the man, not just for what he has done, but for what he is. Unless the truth of this is clearly understood and held as a personal conviction, then the great subject of justification by faith cannot be understood and much less can its blessedness be experienced.


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Chapter Three
Double Problem – Double Solution
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So then, every unjustified person is such because of two things,-the condemnation for what he has done, and the condemnation for what he is. For either one of these the penalty is eternal death. Therefore, unless the justification offered is of such a scope as to free him from both of these condemnations, then he will die as surely as if he had been delivered from neither. That is to say, if he is delivered from the condemnation of what he has done without being delivered from the condemnation of what he is, he will still die. He is still unjustified. Conversely, should he be delivered from the condemnation existent because of what he is, without being delivered from the condemnation arising from what he has done, then he will still die an unjustified sinner. It must be both.
Therefore, anyone who teaches a doctrine of justification which does not include the both to the place where the believer can actually translate this into personal and living experience, is not teaching the true but only a false and deceptive message of justification. Part truth is not the truth. It is a lie.
Throughout this study the point has been made and maintained that justification is not a single, but a double work and that each of these two works is different from the other. It is now time to see why the work in each case has to be different, and why the one work will not solve both problems but only the problem for which it is designed.
Let consideration then be given to the work of accounting, wherein the person is able to stand before God as if and as though he had never sinned, as if he were actually righteous. The problem solved by this work of justification is that of the sins of the past.
As long as eternity lasts, nothing can change the fact that up till justification, the individual lived a sinful life during which he committed many sins. This is the history or the record of the past and nothing can change that. What has been done has been done. Words which have been spoken cannot be recalled. Actions committed cannot be undone. We may have the deepest regret for that which we have done and can wish most earnestly that we had never done it, but that will not change the past. We can never stand before God or anyone else as having never sinned for we have all sinned, and those sins stand there in awful condemnation of us.
In the unerring records of heaven above, the accounts show the sinner as he is, - condemned to eternal death. If that man is to be saved, then something must be done about that account, for he can never pass the judgment with such a record against him.
What then is to be done? Can he go back to his birth and begin again, this time to live a life of perfect righteousness so that there will be no record to condemn him? All will recognize that this is not the solution for more than one reason. In the first case, it is physically impossible for time to be wound back and for anyone to relive his life again. In the second case, even if he did, then he would find that he would still not live a sinless life anyway.
Can the whole of the past simply be forgotten and overlooked? To do this would require that God accept sin as a part of His kingdom and universe. It would be to perpetuate misery and suffering in His Kingdom and this He would not do and we would not want Him to do that. This is no solution to the matter.
Then can he pay the debt himself? Paul wrote the book of Galatians to reiterate what he had so soundly taught in Romans, that a man can never be saved by his own works. Man cannot possibly pay the debt for the simple reason that his life does not measure with the greatness of the law, and therefore cannot pay the debt to the law. There is only one life which is equal with the law and that is the life of God who gave Himself in Christ for our redemption. Only He can pay the debt and He has paid it.
"The only way in which he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ, and the Lord places the obedience of His Son to the sinner's account. Christ's righteousness is accepted in place of man's failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as He loves His Son." Selected Message

Ikan.

Thanks for this lecture, which is worth to study.

I have not the time yet to read and study it thoroughly, but one thing I saw in this presentation that it conforms my ideas that I have presented in this forum minus the legality of the Law over Christ believers (which is not mentioned above).

I have presented my ideas with a different language but I am sure it conforms the idea of the author above.

I will comment on it later.

You can compare to my new topic “Justification” that I have wrote two days before I read your post above.

Meanwhile, Mike Lowe must checked his ideas on justification again IF the above post posted by Ikan is the view of SDA’s church on Justification., since his ideas is against what is posted above (read my topic: THE BASIC CONCEPT OF SALVATION ACCORDING TO THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST).

In His love

Quotes from Ikan last post.
Justification by faith is an experience.
It is an experience which comes as a result of a correct understanding of what our condemnation is, of what God will do to remove that condemnation, of what we must do to enable Him to do His part, and the doing of what we must do. Then comes the freedom, the peace, the deliverance and the transformation which is the experience of all experiences, the joy of all joys and the fulfilment of all fulfilments.
Unquote.

From my presentation of the Gospel of Christ in this forum, do I have a correct understanding of what our condemnation is? According to the Author of this post, our condemnation lays in the fact that we were born sinful, which gives way to a sinful life. He said :

Quote.
“Everyone of us begins life the same, a condemned and therefore an unjustified sinner.” But what is not so readily understood in the religious world of today, where the emphasis is so predominantly on what we do, is that we are also under condemnation for what we are. The penalty for that is also death. This means that the very moment a child is born, before he has even committed that very first wrong action, he is already under condemnation of death, not because of what he has done, for as yet he has done nothing, but because of what he is. "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalms 51:5.
When, as is always the case, he begins to commit the actions -of sin, then he adds to the already existing condemnation unto eternal death, another condemnation unto eternal death. The first condemnation unto eternal death was for what he is and the second is for what he does.
Unquote.

I have said this in all of my posts.

Do I have a correct understanding of what God will do to remove that condemnation?

Quote.
It is for this reason that we need atonement or forgiveness for our past sins to remove this source of condemnation, and we need to have our hearts changed and to be made holy in order to remove the second cause of condemnation. Thus it is that justification has to be both an accounting and a making. Both of these are the works of God for "You cannot atone for your past sins; you cannot change your heart and make yourself holy. But God promises to do all this for you through Christ." Steps to Christ, 51. There is the clear promise from God Himself that He will do both of these works for you. He will atone for your past sins thus taking care of that source of condemnation. He will change your heart and make you holy, thus taking care of that source of condemnation. Then when He has done both, you will be justified
Unquote.

I presented the same view.

Quote.
Justification then, according to these Scriptures, Romans 8:7 and 5:1, involves the actual doing of something in the person. It involves the taking away of the old carnal mind and the replacing of it with the new mind, even the mind, "which was also in Christ Jesus." Philippians 2:5. In short it is the making of a person to be righteous. There is only one possible way of dealing with it and that is to have it eradicated and destroyed. This is what Christ does when He sets us free from the law of sin and death. This is the act of transforming love which purifies the soul and recreates the believer into the image of Christ it' is when this work is done that there is now no condemnation. It is when this work is done that the believer is justified.
Unquote.

I presented the same view.

Quote.
The question now arises as to how we shall understand these two different descriptions of what justification is, especially when they appear to be in contradiction to each other. It can only be concluded that if the word of God declares that justification is the reckoning of a man to be righteous, so that he stands before God as if and as though he had not sinned and was righteous, then this is what justification has to be.
Likewise, when the same Word of God declares that justification is the making of a man to be righteous, so that he is actually righteous before God, then again this is what justification has to be.
The fact is that justification is both accounting and making. It has to be both for there is more than one need to be met in order to justify the person so that unless both of these works have been done, then the person still remains under condemnation

Therefore, as surely as justification is both forgiveness for sin and reclaiming from sin, it is not a single but a double work. As surely as it is a double work, so surely is it a double solution and as surely as there are two solutions, then there must be two problems of condemnation to be dealt with. This is the only conclusion which can be drawn and it is entirely a correct one. There are two condemnations hanging over the head of the unrepentant sinner, both of which must be dealt with before that person can be justified.
The twofold nature of our need is neatly stated in the following words: "You cannot atone for your past sins, you cannot change your heart and make yourself holy." Steps to Christ, 51.

As one in need of justification we are told that we cannot do either of the two things needed in order to bring us to the place where we have obtained God's forgiveness or justification. Those two things are once again, "You cannot atone for your past sins;" and "You cannot change your heart and make yourself holy." There are the two great needs of the unjustified. The first need is to deal with the awesome guilt accumulated because of the deeds of the whole of our past lives. The second is the dealing with the terrible condition of the heart as at the present time.
Unquote.

I presented the same view.

I saw the same idea as what is presented above with the mine, but maybe I said it in a different language. Anyhow, I understood the Author idea and what he meant with his presentation and I agree with that. So now, I am eager to wait for the further continuation, is he presenting the same idea again or will it come out differently? And what is the most important for me is; how is the author view about the Law?

Okkay, Ikan, let’s share the continuation of the author’s idea about the Law.

In His love

James S.

Jesus made justification available to everyone who accepts Him as their personal Saviour. He cannot and will not justify the sins of sinners who refuse to comply with this condition. To be justified is to inherit the kingdom of God, and no one inherits salvation without accepting Jesus as their Saviour. To justify and save someone in the kingdom of God against their will would be tyranical.

[ June 29, 2002, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]