Posted By: James Saptenno
The Ten Commandments - 05/22/02 04:52 PM
Does obedience to the ten Cs matters for our salvation?
YES or NO? And why?
In His love
James S
The Ten Commandments
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/22/02 07:53 PM
That all depends on, If we love God with all our hearts and our neighbor as ourselves.
The fruit of a converted heart is heartfelt love for our Master Shepherd, Jesus Christ and if we Do Love Him....we will do His biddings, in His strength. He says:John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/22/02 08:11 PM
Does obedience to the ten Cs matters for our salvation?
We cannot work our way to heaven, but we will not be there if we refuse to allow heaven to work its way in us.
Asking if obedience has anything to do with our salvation is like asking if breathing has anything to do with living. How can we separate the two?
Obedeince is the fruit of our salvation. When we're connected to Christ, when we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, the Holy Spirit empowers us to experience fruitfulness - which includes obedience.
We do not obey the law in order to be saved, rather we are able to obey the law because we are saved in Jesus. The joy of Jesus is obedience, a life in harmony with the example of Jesus.
Jesus is our focus, not the law. The fruit of keeping our eyes on Jesus is obedience and fruitfulness. Keeping the Lord is keeping the law - but not the other way round (i.e., keeping the law is not keeping the Lord). We cannot put the law before the Lord and hope to obey the law. Jesus must be first and best of all, and then obedience will be possible to the honor and glory of God.
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/22/02 08:42 PM
1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
quote:
SW
August 14, 1906
The Law of God Still in Force
Mrs. E. G. WhiteChrist warns his followers, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing; but inwardly they are ravening wolves." He exhorts us not to be deceived when false shepherds present their doctrines. These men tell us that the commandments of God were done away at the death of Christ. Shall we believe them, these men who claim to be sanctified, while they refuse to obey God? They say the Lord has told them that they need not keep the ten commandments; but has the Lord told them this? -- No; God does not lie. {SW, August 14, 1906 par. 1}
Satan, who is the father of lies, deceived Adam in a similar way, telling him that he need not obey God, that he would not die if he transgressed the law. But Adam fell, and by his sin he opened the floodgates of woe upon our world. {SW, August 14, 1906 par. 2}
Again, Satan told Cain that he need not follow expressly the command of God in presenting the slain lamb as an offering. Cain obeyed the voice of the deceiver; and because God did not accept his offering, while he showed his approval of Abel's offering, Cain rose up in anger and slew his brother. {SW, August 14, 1906 par. 3}
We need to know for ourselves what voice we are heeding, whether it is the voice of the true and living God, or the voice of the great apostate. Eternal life is of value to each of us, and we must take heed how we hear. We need sound doctrine, pure faith. We cannot afford to receive the sayings of men for the commandments of God. God declares, "If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; if they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes." {SW, August 14, 1906 par. 4}
John gives the definition of sin. "Whosoever committeth sin," he says, "transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." And this was after the crucifixion of Christ, when, we are told, the law was abolished. When type met antitype in the death of Christ, the sacrificial offerings ceased. The ceremonial law was done away. But by the crucifixion the law of ten commandments was established. The gospel has not abrogated the law, nor detracted one tittle from its claims. It still demands holiness in every part. It is the echo of God's own voice, giving to every soul the invitation, Come up higher. Be holy, holier still. This just and holy law is the standard by which all will be judged in the last day. We need to ask ourselves the question, Are we making void the law of God, or are we standing in vindication of it? We should carefully examine our thoughts and words. {SW, August 14, 1906 par. 5}
The law has no power to pardon transgression. Repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ must be exercised. As the sinner looks into this divine mirror, he will see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and will be driven to Christ. Godly sorrow will result from a realization of his frailty and depravity. His faith in the atoning sacrifice will be based on the sacred promise of full and complete pardon in Christ. {SW, August 14, 1906 par. 6}
But every one who has this hope of pardon through Christ, must "purify himself, even as he is pure." His life thenceforth must be governed by a new principle. The influence of a gospel hope will not lead the sinner to look upon the salvation of Christ as a matter of free grace, while he continues to live in transgression of the law of God. {SW, August 14, 1906 par. 7}
Let us earnestly inquire, What is truth? We cannot afford to build on a sandy foundation. The doctrines revealed in the word of God are to be the foundation of our faith. It is of the utmost importance that we understand, as far as God has given us capacity for understanding, the principles upon which his government rests; for the principles which we believe and receive into the heart will govern and control the actions. The more clear the understanding of the truth which is in Jesus, the more spiritual will be the religious life, the more holy the affections. {SW, August 14, 1906 par. 8}
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/22/02 09:56 PM
Does obedience to the ten Cs matters for our salvation?
YES or NO? And why?
quote:
Amazing Grace
Page 134
Chap. 126
Terms of the Covenant
If ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people. Ex. 19:5In the beginning, God gave His law to mankind as a means of attaining happiness and eternal life.
The ten commandments, Thou shalt, and Thou shalt not, are ten promises, assured to us if we render obedience to the law governing the universe. "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15). Here is the sum and substance of the law of God. The terms of salvation for every son and daughter of Adam are here outlined. . . .
That law of ten precepts of the greatest love that can be presented to man is the voice of God from heaven speaking to the soul in promise, "This do, and you will not come under the dominion and control of Satan." There is not a negative in that law, although it may appear thus. It is DO and Live.
The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized.
Christ does not lessen the claims of the law. In unmistakable language He presents obedience to it as the condition of eternal life--the same condition that was required of Adam before his fall. . . . The requirement under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement made in Eden--harmony with God's law, which is holy, just, and good.
The standard of character presented in the Old Testament is the same that is presented in the New Testament. This standard is not one to which we cannot attain. In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.
The terms of salvation for every son and daughter of Adam are here outlined. . . .
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/23/02 05:40 AM
Amen Mike and Avalee,
There is only one answer to this question.....a resounding YES.
Thank you Jesus for your promises.
Posted By: Dora
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/23/02 06:50 AM
Mike, I really liked your post of today, May 22. The truth could be stated no more clearly, to my thinking, than you did in that post. I know that sometimes there is need for more explanation, but, often if it is too long, by the time I get to the end, I may have lost my first thought.
Your post covered the question quite adequately, I felt, and in short, well thought out, and explanatory statements. Thank you for sharing.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/23/02 07:30 PM
Thank you. Jesus is so awesome, and I am personally thankful, thoroughly thankful, that in Jesus obedience to the holy, just and good law is possible. God is great, and I love Him with all my heart.
Posted By: Dedreic
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/23/02 07:44 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Thank you. Jesus is so awesome, and I am personally thankful, thoroughly thankful, that in Jesus obedience to the holy, just and good law is possible. God is great, and I love Him with all my heart.
Hi Mike,
Just how do you show people that the law of God is still binding... it is a difficult task (I have found anyway, to show that the Law of God is FOREVER!!) What Bible texts would you use, besides the ones previously mentioned in John 14.
Posted By: Dedreic
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/23/02 08:26 PM
I'm sorry, I should have invited everyone for comments. What Bible texts would you use to illustrate that we are required to keep the 10 commandment Law? and without bringing in the Great Controversy. Some people are not ready for that... straight up from the Bible, what texts would you use?
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/23/02 10:15 PM
John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1 John 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1 John 3:22
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1 John 3:23
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/24/02 03:09 AM
Welcome, Dedreic, to Maritime SDA OnLine! 
Avalee and whoever else wishes to respond:
Some people say that this is referring to Christ's commandments, not the 10 Commandments.
How would you answer those people?
Posted By: John H.
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/24/02 08:59 AM
In 1 John 2:3,4 it's not really clear whether it's talking about commandments of the Son or the Father.
But in 1 John 3:23,24 the "He" is definitely God the Father, since in verse 23 it says "His Son Jesus Christ." So that passage is talking about the commandments of the Father.
1 John 5:2,3 just says "God" generically, so that would be taken to be the Father > Ten Commandments. If the Bible doesn't specifically say Jesus' commandments, it makes sense to take it as meaning the Father's Commandments, i.e. the Ten.
Some more verses illustrating the importance of keeping the Ten:
"Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth." -- John 16:13.
"Thou art near, O Lord; and all Thy commandments are truth." -- Psalm 119:151.
===
"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." -- Philippians 4:8.
"The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes." -- Psalm 19:8.
"Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." -- Romans 7:12.
"My lips shall utter praise, when Thou hast taught me Thy statutes." -- Psalm 119:171.
===
"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." -- Matthew 5:6.
"All Thy commandments are righteousness." -- Psalm 119:172.
===
"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." -- Galatians 3:7.
"Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." -- John 8:39
"Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." -- Genesis 26:5.
===
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." -- Matthew 5:18.
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." -- Romans 8:4.
"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." -- Romans 8:6-8.
"But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 1 Corinthians 15:57. Amen to that!
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/25/02 06:56 AM
Thank you for the versees.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/24/02 08:51 PM
People who say, Now that Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death we are free from the law, and also quick to admit it doesn't mean we are free to break the law.
When you discuss it further with them, and go through the ten commandments one at a time, you learn that the only commandment they believe doesn't have to obeyed is the Sabbath commandment.
So then the study really has to do with whether or not the Sabbath still has to be observed, which eventually involves the great controversy motif.
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/24/02 09:49 PM
Mike that is so true. Most people when you take the Ten Commandments one by one only have a problem with the 4th one. That just amazes me...how can you say all the rest are still binding but not one.
Posted By: John H.
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/25/02 03:46 PM
Avalee, nothing wrong with doing a quick search and posting results! It's just amazing what Bible/SOP software can do for searching. Things that used to take hours now take minutes.
Mike, your observation about the sabbath is so true. People who fail to grasp the eternal nature of the Ten Commandments seem to think that if a commandment isn't explicitly restated or confirmed in the New Testament, then it isn't binding any more. And most think the 4th commandment isn't restated in the New Testament; that the discussion in Hebrews 4 only refers to entering in to Christ's rest. (As in, "Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28)
But Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi makes an interesting observation:
"Sometimes a word is used only once in the Bible. This makes it necessary to consult its use in extra-Biblical literature. For example, the term sabbatismos ('Sabbathkeeping') is used only in Hebrews 4:9. Recent studies of the use of sabbatismos in extra-Biblical literature have shown that the term is consistently used to denote a literal seventh-day Sabbathkeeping. Thus, the correct translation of Hebrews 4:9 is: 'A seventh-day Sabbathkeeping has been left behind for the people of God.' A correct translation of this text provides a powerful proof of the continuity of Sabbathkeeping in the NT."
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_21.html
(see also http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_78.html )
[ May 25, 2002: Message edited by: John ]
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/25/02 05:48 PM
Thanks for all replies.
So far, I see that all have the same answer: YES, obedience to the law does matter for our salvation because it is commanded for Christ believers to keep and do it.
Mike Lowe went deeper with saying that obedience to the law is the fruit of our salvation, because of our faith in Christ, His Spirit empower us and made us able to keep and obey the law.
I will comment on others first and set out Mike for a later reply.
I came to understand that all those who replied the question believe that obedience (or works) does matters to our salvation. Straight to say, that we are not saved by our obedience to the law (only by Christ through faith) but without obedience we will never be in heaven. So, obedience to the law or our works really are so important and might be added to the works Christ has done for us in order we may live eternally in heaven.
What does these verses means to you?
“So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works, if it were, grace would be no longer grace” – Romans 11:5,6 (NIV).
“But now the righteousness from God apart from the law, has been made known, to which the law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” – Romans 3:21-24 (NIV).
“Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trust God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness” – Romans 3:4,5 (NIV).
We will dig and learn the truth together.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/25/02 05:51 PM
Daryl.
You are right! All what was written by John was to keep “LOVE that seeks no self” as Christ’s commandments.
Many believes that love=the 10th Cs, but unfortunately they are deadly wrong.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/25/02 05:52 PM
Mike.
Regarding Sabbath observation as commanded in the 10th Commandment I will not discuss here but I will open a new topic for this later.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/25/02 10:59 PM
James,
When one is talking about salvation, one must address Justification and Sanctification. One is "Believe and thou shalt be saved", the other is "If you believe, you will do My will, walk in My ways, follow Me....."
When one is talking about salvation, one must address Justification and Sanctification. One is "Believe and thou shalt be saved", the other is "If you believe, you will do My will, walk in My ways, follow Me....."
Justification is the beginning of your walk with Christ. And to walk With Him is Active. We have choices to make and a believer is "a doer of the Word", does the works of the law, not to be saved, but because he is saved.
The Spirit of Prophecy quotes above are quite clear....can you comment on them please.
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/25/02 11:14 PM
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Manuscript Releases Volume Thirteen
-PG- 191
"God calls for a living, straightforward testimony to be borne.Testimonies have been borne, but a new impulse must be given to the work. Jesus Christ is the Captain of the Lord's host. He must be recognized as the leader. All who heed the works, "Follow Me," will reveal the fruit of
obedience. The ground upon which we are to stand unitedly in doing God's service is that the Bible is the true guide, and not the idle sophistry of men. The Bible is our Counselor, and is to be obeyed. Justification by faith is the article of our true standing in the sight of God. Sanctification through the Holy Spirit binds up man's will and purpose with the will and purpose of God. If we have not these features in our experience, the church will be sickly and feeble. The safety of God's people is in coming to His living Word. When no human authority is put before this Word, then will men unite in gospel harmony, for the doing of the Word binds heart to heart, causing the workers to blend as one in Christ Jesus. The living oracles are fresh and beautiful. To study them is to eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of God."
[ May 25, 2002: Message edited by: Charlene Van Hook ]
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/26/02 12:45 AM
quote:
Originally posted by James Saptenno:
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trust God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness Romans 3:4,5 (NIV)
Romans 3:4(KJV)
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Romans 3:5(KJV)
But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
In The Blessed Hope
Avalee
[ May 25, 2002: Message edited by: Avalee ]
[ May 25, 2002: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
Posted By: John H.
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/26/02 07:18 AM
James wrote:
quote:
Many believes that love=the 10th Cs, but unfortunately they are deadly wrong.
Well, the apostle John wrote, "This is love, that we walk after His commandments." 2 John 6.
I believe I'll go along with the apostle! It would be deadly to do otherwise.
[ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: John ]
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/26/02 09:01 PM
Amen John
1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/28/02 06:27 AM
James wrote:
"So, obedience to the law or our works really are so important and might be added to the works Christ has done for us in order we may live eternally in heaven."
This is an unfortunate piece of logic that all too often people believe. But in reality, obedience is the result of being in covenant relationship with Jesus.
Our part is simply to come to Jesus just as we are, and His part is to empower us to, Go and sin no more. As we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, we do not and cannot sin. 1 John 3:9.
Paul wrote: "... obedience [leads] unto righteousness." Rom 6:16. We cannot experience the gift of righteousness by faith without first experiencing the gift of obedience by faith. Obedience is doing nothing wrong, whereas righteousness is doing everything right.
We are not saved because Jesus empowers us to live without sin, rather He is able to empower us to obey the law unto righteousness because we have accepted the salvation He wrought out for us on the cross.
It is impossible to separate salvation, obedience and righteousness. Like the holy Trinity, they coexist in fellowship. When we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour, we also become "partakers of His holiness." Heb 12:10.
[ May 27, 2002, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]
"So, obedience to the law or our works really are so important and might be added to the works Christ has done for us in order we may live eternally in heaven."
This is an unfortunate piece of logic that all too often people believe. But in reality, obedience is the result of being in covenant relationship with Jesus.
Our part is simply to come to Jesus just as we are, and His part is to empower us to, Go and sin no more. As we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, we do not and cannot sin. 1 John 3:9.
Paul wrote: "... obedience [leads] unto righteousness." Rom 6:16. We cannot experience the gift of righteousness by faith without first experiencing the gift of obedience by faith. Obedience is doing nothing wrong, whereas righteousness is doing everything right.
We are not saved because Jesus empowers us to live without sin, rather He is able to empower us to obey the law unto righteousness because we have accepted the salvation He wrought out for us on the cross.
It is impossible to separate salvation, obedience and righteousness. Like the holy Trinity, they coexist in fellowship. When we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour, we also become "partakers of His holiness." Heb 12:10.
[ May 27, 2002, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/28/02 06:47 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
We are not saved because Jesus empowers us to live without sin, rather He is able to empower us to obey the law unto righteousness because we have accepted the salvation He wrought out for us on the cross.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/28/02 04:36 PM
Avalee.
Sorry, miss-typing. It should be read Romans 4:4,5.
So, what is your comment?
In His love
James S.
Sorry, miss-typing. It should be read Romans 4:4,5.
So, what is your comment?
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/28/02 04:45 PM
No one answers to Romans 4:4,5. Why? Or do you feel that these verses is against your concept of works has a value in your salvation?
As I have seen from your replies that works (obedience to the law) is important and has a value in working your way to heaven, but these verses told us the contrary. If there is any value in our works of obedience that may be counted for our fitness to heaven, then grace is no longer grace and salvation is no longer a gift but a reward.
Any comment?
In His love
James S.
As I have seen from your replies that works (obedience to the law) is important and has a value in working your way to heaven, but these verses told us the contrary. If there is any value in our works of obedience that may be counted for our fitness to heaven, then grace is no longer grace and salvation is no longer a gift but a reward.
Any comment?
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/28/02 04:47 PM
John.
In the whole book of John I didn’t find any indication that Christ believers must keep the Ten Commandments. But surely I found that Christ believers must “love each other” (John 13:34; 15:12,17).
This is the command that Christ has given us through John, which we must keep and obey.
Is it the same with the Ten Commandments? Is “love” = the Ten Commandments?
Love (agape – seeks no self in it) is God character, the Ten Commandment is a written law in human terms based on this love. The Ten Commandments it self is not “love”, but it has the principle of love.
People may keep and obey the whole Ten perfectly but without love. The reason he keeps and obeys it is based on his self-love nature. For example; he didn’t steal and didn’t kill because he will not get catch by the Police, put in jail and maybe ended with many years in prison or ended on the electric chair. He keeps the commandments because he is afraid for sinning, he keeps the commandments in order to live righteously and may enter heaven and have eternal life. There are many reasons, but all is based on the principle of self.
But when some one has love in his heart, he will live in harmony with the law and it principle.
Love is fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22), imparted in the hearts of Christ’s believers who lived by faith and after the Spirit. It is a ministry of the Spirit that gives life and brings righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,9). “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom” – 2 Corinthians 3:17.
A freedom from what? Freedom from sin of self-love! Only by living after the Spirit, a believer might have the love of God in his heart that will wipe out his self-love so that he might love his fellow men. He then has the righteousness of the law fulfilled in him (Romans 8:4), a righteousness that brought life.
But what is said about the Ten Commandments and its ministry?
“Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious……………………….How shall not the ministration of the Spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory……………….For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious” – 2 Corinthians 3:6-11 (KJV).
See the difference between love and the Ten commandments?
Love gives life, love gives righteousness, love is fruit of the Spirit, the ministry of the Spirit is more glorious and remains till end of time.
The letter kills, keeping the law brings condemnation and death, the law is less glorious, the law was done away.
Here is more;
“The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law” – 1 Corinthians 15:56.
Keeping the law empowers the sin in us and produced death (Romans 7:13).
“Once I was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death” – Romans 7:9-11 (NIV).
And many more.
Do you see the difference now between love and the Ten Commandments, do you still believe that love = the Ten commandments, and do you also believe that what Christ commanded through John is to keep the Ten Commandments?
“For the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” – John 1:17 (NIV).
“The law and the prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and every one is forcing his way into it” – Luke 16:16 (NIV).
(The law as a whole was since Moses till John, it didn’t bring life and righteousness but condemnation and death. But since the cross, the gospel of Christ about grace and truth that brings life and righteousness was preached).
“A new command I give you; Love one another; As I have loved you, so you must love one another” – Romans 13:34 (NIV).
“My command is this; Love each other as I have loved you” – John 15:12 (NIV).
“This is my command; Love each other” – John 15:17 (NIV).
In His love
James S.
In the whole book of John I didn’t find any indication that Christ believers must keep the Ten Commandments. But surely I found that Christ believers must “love each other” (John 13:34; 15:12,17).
This is the command that Christ has given us through John, which we must keep and obey.
Is it the same with the Ten Commandments? Is “love” = the Ten Commandments?
Love (agape – seeks no self in it) is God character, the Ten Commandment is a written law in human terms based on this love. The Ten Commandments it self is not “love”, but it has the principle of love.
People may keep and obey the whole Ten perfectly but without love. The reason he keeps and obeys it is based on his self-love nature. For example; he didn’t steal and didn’t kill because he will not get catch by the Police, put in jail and maybe ended with many years in prison or ended on the electric chair. He keeps the commandments because he is afraid for sinning, he keeps the commandments in order to live righteously and may enter heaven and have eternal life. There are many reasons, but all is based on the principle of self.
But when some one has love in his heart, he will live in harmony with the law and it principle.
Love is fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22), imparted in the hearts of Christ’s believers who lived by faith and after the Spirit. It is a ministry of the Spirit that gives life and brings righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,9). “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom” – 2 Corinthians 3:17.
A freedom from what? Freedom from sin of self-love! Only by living after the Spirit, a believer might have the love of God in his heart that will wipe out his self-love so that he might love his fellow men. He then has the righteousness of the law fulfilled in him (Romans 8:4), a righteousness that brought life.
But what is said about the Ten Commandments and its ministry?
“Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious……………………….How shall not the ministration of the Spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory……………….For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious” – 2 Corinthians 3:6-11 (KJV).
See the difference between love and the Ten commandments?
Love gives life, love gives righteousness, love is fruit of the Spirit, the ministry of the Spirit is more glorious and remains till end of time.
The letter kills, keeping the law brings condemnation and death, the law is less glorious, the law was done away.
Here is more;
“The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law” – 1 Corinthians 15:56.
Keeping the law empowers the sin in us and produced death (Romans 7:13).
“Once I was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death” – Romans 7:9-11 (NIV).
And many more.
Do you see the difference now between love and the Ten Commandments, do you still believe that love = the Ten commandments, and do you also believe that what Christ commanded through John is to keep the Ten Commandments?
“For the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” – John 1:17 (NIV).
“The law and the prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and every one is forcing his way into it” – Luke 16:16 (NIV).
(The law as a whole was since Moses till John, it didn’t bring life and righteousness but condemnation and death. But since the cross, the gospel of Christ about grace and truth that brings life and righteousness was preached).
“A new command I give you; Love one another; As I have loved you, so you must love one another” – Romans 13:34 (NIV).
“My command is this; Love each other as I have loved you” – John 15:12 (NIV).
“This is my command; Love each other” – John 15:17 (NIV).
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/28/02 04:53 PM
Charlene van Hook
Quote.
The Spirit of Prophecy quotes above are quite clear....can you comment on them please
Unquote.
As I am sharing my thoughts that were against the most teaching of Christian churches and doctrines, I must comment on EGW writings without offending her writings.
Quote.
These men tell us that the commandments of God were done away at the death of Christ. Shall we believe them, these men who claim to be sanctified, while they refuse to obey God? They say the Lord has told them that they need not keep the ten commandments; but has the Lord told them this? -- No; God does not lie. {SW, August 14, 1906 par. 1}
Unquote.
God did told men to keep and obey His law. But that command was spoken and given ONLY to the Jews. It was not spoken to us, the Gentiles. The law was designated for the Jews that was chosen among other nations and tribes to proclaim God great love and mercy through the offspring of Abraham who will redeem the world from sin and it wages. If it was for the Gentiles too, then it was proclaimed to them as well since Sinai.
“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only (who has the law)? Is he not also of the Gentiles (who has not the law)? Yes, of the Gentiles also. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision (the Jews who has the law) by faith, and uncircumcision (the Gentiles who has not the law) through faith” – Romans 3:28-30.
Either those who has the law and those who has not will be justified by faith. If justification is by the law, then God is the God of the Jews only because they have the law and the Gentiles not.
If God justify both parties by faith, the law has no meanings for the Gentiles, why should he command them to keep and obey it? He is the God for the Jews who has the law but he is also the God for the Gentiles who has not the law, that means the law was specified and given only for the Jews. But through obedience to the law no Jews have been justified, why? Because they all fall short of the glory of God and could not fulfil the demand of the law that was based on LOVE that seeks no self. Why they can fulfil it? Because their nature is love for self that is against the nature of God “love agape” which is the spirit of the law. This is the sin they inherit from Adam, sin of self-love, that dominates all men and were a part of us because this sin is in us, it is our sinful nature (Romans 7:14-23).
Men self-love nature falls short of God’s glory, his agape love, a love that seeks no self in it.
So if the law could not justify the Jews for a reward of eternal life, why should it be given to the Gentiles? Since Christ has died for all to redeem those under the law (Jews) and those who are not under the law (Gentiles) he had made all men just and righteous once and for all (Romans 5:18,19; Hebrew 10:10,14). Obedience to the law has lost it meaning and value, righteousness obtained as a free gift and justification is now by faith only.
For this reason the functions of the law was designated for a time period only, “until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come” (Galatians 3:19). For the Jews the law comes to an end at the cross (Luke 16:16) and for the Gentiles it was never exist because it was never been given to them.
In His love
James S.
Quote.
The Spirit of Prophecy quotes above are quite clear....can you comment on them please
Unquote.
As I am sharing my thoughts that were against the most teaching of Christian churches and doctrines, I must comment on EGW writings without offending her writings.
Quote.
These men tell us that the commandments of God were done away at the death of Christ. Shall we believe them, these men who claim to be sanctified, while they refuse to obey God? They say the Lord has told them that they need not keep the ten commandments; but has the Lord told them this? -- No; God does not lie. {SW, August 14, 1906 par. 1}
Unquote.
God did told men to keep and obey His law. But that command was spoken and given ONLY to the Jews. It was not spoken to us, the Gentiles. The law was designated for the Jews that was chosen among other nations and tribes to proclaim God great love and mercy through the offspring of Abraham who will redeem the world from sin and it wages. If it was for the Gentiles too, then it was proclaimed to them as well since Sinai.
“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only (who has the law)? Is he not also of the Gentiles (who has not the law)? Yes, of the Gentiles also. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision (the Jews who has the law) by faith, and uncircumcision (the Gentiles who has not the law) through faith” – Romans 3:28-30.
Either those who has the law and those who has not will be justified by faith. If justification is by the law, then God is the God of the Jews only because they have the law and the Gentiles not.
If God justify both parties by faith, the law has no meanings for the Gentiles, why should he command them to keep and obey it? He is the God for the Jews who has the law but he is also the God for the Gentiles who has not the law, that means the law was specified and given only for the Jews. But through obedience to the law no Jews have been justified, why? Because they all fall short of the glory of God and could not fulfil the demand of the law that was based on LOVE that seeks no self. Why they can fulfil it? Because their nature is love for self that is against the nature of God “love agape” which is the spirit of the law. This is the sin they inherit from Adam, sin of self-love, that dominates all men and were a part of us because this sin is in us, it is our sinful nature (Romans 7:14-23).
Men self-love nature falls short of God’s glory, his agape love, a love that seeks no self in it.
So if the law could not justify the Jews for a reward of eternal life, why should it be given to the Gentiles? Since Christ has died for all to redeem those under the law (Jews) and those who are not under the law (Gentiles) he had made all men just and righteous once and for all (Romans 5:18,19; Hebrew 10:10,14). Obedience to the law has lost it meaning and value, righteousness obtained as a free gift and justification is now by faith only.
For this reason the functions of the law was designated for a time period only, “until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come” (Galatians 3:19). For the Jews the law comes to an end at the cross (Luke 16:16) and for the Gentiles it was never exist because it was never been given to them.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/28/02 04:55 PM
The law that was engraved on stone tablets (the 10 commandments) was a law that kills and serving it only leads to condemnation and death (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Romans 7:9-11). This law that was nailed to the cross (Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:14), comes to an end in Christ, no more used as a supervisor to lead people to Christ (Galatians 3:23-25), but it’s principle remains till eternity because it is based on God’s nature of agape love.
“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in the newness of the spirit and not in the oldness of the letter” – Romans 7:6.
Clear and unmistakable!
The Gentiles and the Jews since the cross must serve God in the newness of the spirit, a spirit of a reborn believer that was sealed and filled with the Spirit (Ephesians 1:13), bearing fruit of the Spirit that fulfils the demands of the law (Galatians 5:22,23). “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit” – Romans 8:4.
“Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” – Romans 10:4.
In Christ by faith, the ministration of the law ended for those who believe, so that righteousness might be given as a free gift instead of condemnation and death through obedience to the law that could never justify its law keepers.
Christ himself has made an end to the law as a way to earn life by obedience for justification, as this will never happen, but only condemn those who keep it with death penalty because their sin of self-love was exposed and become exceeding sinful (Romans 7:5,9-13).
Christ has released men from the wages of sin, death eternal, and gives them a new life. He promised those who believe him and will live for him, that His Spirit will lead them to all righteousness and holy life by releasing them from the grip and the power of sin. So, why should he ordered the Gentiles and new born believers to keep the law, that by being under it will only empower sin to become stronger and exceeding sinful, that will locked them under prisoner of sin, under dominion of sin and at the end, death eternal as it wages.
“For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace” – Romans 6:14.
“The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law” – 1 Corinthians 15:56.
In His love
James S.
“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in the newness of the spirit and not in the oldness of the letter” – Romans 7:6.
Clear and unmistakable!
The Gentiles and the Jews since the cross must serve God in the newness of the spirit, a spirit of a reborn believer that was sealed and filled with the Spirit (Ephesians 1:13), bearing fruit of the Spirit that fulfils the demands of the law (Galatians 5:22,23). “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit” – Romans 8:4.
“Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” – Romans 10:4.
In Christ by faith, the ministration of the law ended for those who believe, so that righteousness might be given as a free gift instead of condemnation and death through obedience to the law that could never justify its law keepers.
Christ himself has made an end to the law as a way to earn life by obedience for justification, as this will never happen, but only condemn those who keep it with death penalty because their sin of self-love was exposed and become exceeding sinful (Romans 7:5,9-13).
Christ has released men from the wages of sin, death eternal, and gives them a new life. He promised those who believe him and will live for him, that His Spirit will lead them to all righteousness and holy life by releasing them from the grip and the power of sin. So, why should he ordered the Gentiles and new born believers to keep the law, that by being under it will only empower sin to become stronger and exceeding sinful, that will locked them under prisoner of sin, under dominion of sin and at the end, death eternal as it wages.
“For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace” – Romans 6:14.
“The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law” – 1 Corinthians 15:56.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/28/02 04:57 PM
EGW said “Shall we believe them, these men who claim to be sanctified, while they refuse to obey God? Sanctification is done by the Spirit (1 Peter 1:2) and those who live after the Spirit will be in harmony with the principle of the law as love that is fruit of the Spirit fills his heart, and this love fulfils the demands of the law.
Refusing to obey the law doesn’t mean breaking the law. Those who are led by the Spirit refuse to obey the law because it was never commanded to them to keep it! The Spirit in them that will lead them to all righteousness and holy life, they will be sanctified by the Spirit and don’t need the law at all. But whether there is a law to obey or not, as long a man refuse to be led by the Spirit, he will have deeds that breaks either the principle of the law and or the letter of the law. Only when Christ’s believer lives by faith and according to the Spirit will he have love as fruit of the spirit that fulfils the demands of the law both in the letter and in the spirit. He had done what the law demands! But not the other way around, through obedience to the law, no one might fulfil the spirit of the law even though his deeds is according to the letter.
EGW said “John gives the definition of sin. "Whosoever committeth sin," he says, "transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." John gives the definition of sin. "Whosoever committeth sin," he says, "transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." And this was after the crucifixion of Christ, when, we are told, the law was abolished. When type met antitype in the death of Christ, the sacrificial offerings ceased. The ceremonial law was done away. But by the crucifixion the law of ten commandments was established. The gospel has not abrogated the law, nor detracted one tittle from its claims. It still demands holiness in every part.
Unquote.
But one important thing she overlooked is that whoever keeps the law no matter how sincere his obedience is, could never obtain justification by the law. On the contrary they come under the law condemnation with death penalty as the wages of sin, because men’s self-love nature that is a sin against God’s agape nature could never fulfil the law demands. The only thing where the law demands is fulfilled and satisfied is when a man is led by the Spirit, when he serves the Spirit and not the flesh.
And keeping the law is a part of serving the flesh, because “the law is not of faith” and “whatever is not of faith is sin.” Fruit of faith is fruit of the Spirit, but without faith there is only deeds of the flesh, acts that were based on our self-love nature, the sin that dominates us. Obedience to the law comes from our own desire that were under dominion of sin and will only bore deeds of the flesh, no wonder all what the law could do is exposing their sin and condemns them with death. “The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
The theory that the 10 Cs still exist and binding after the cross and only the ceremonial law that was crucified was a big mistake, it leads people away from faith and focused on their works and effort to live according the demands of the law.
Christ didn’t come and die for nothing, he came to redeem men from death as the wages of sin and release them from the power of sin through his Spirit. But how could he work in us if obedience to the law only empowers sin to become stronger? This is contrary to each other, the Spirit doesn’t cooperate with the flesh desire, he doesn’t empowers sin but he will make a death to sin. And sin will never die as long a man keep and obey the law, as it is written “the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.”
In His love
James S.
Refusing to obey the law doesn’t mean breaking the law. Those who are led by the Spirit refuse to obey the law because it was never commanded to them to keep it! The Spirit in them that will lead them to all righteousness and holy life, they will be sanctified by the Spirit and don’t need the law at all. But whether there is a law to obey or not, as long a man refuse to be led by the Spirit, he will have deeds that breaks either the principle of the law and or the letter of the law. Only when Christ’s believer lives by faith and according to the Spirit will he have love as fruit of the spirit that fulfils the demands of the law both in the letter and in the spirit. He had done what the law demands! But not the other way around, through obedience to the law, no one might fulfil the spirit of the law even though his deeds is according to the letter.
EGW said “John gives the definition of sin. "Whosoever committeth sin," he says, "transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." John gives the definition of sin. "Whosoever committeth sin," he says, "transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." And this was after the crucifixion of Christ, when, we are told, the law was abolished. When type met antitype in the death of Christ, the sacrificial offerings ceased. The ceremonial law was done away. But by the crucifixion the law of ten commandments was established. The gospel has not abrogated the law, nor detracted one tittle from its claims. It still demands holiness in every part.
Unquote.
But one important thing she overlooked is that whoever keeps the law no matter how sincere his obedience is, could never obtain justification by the law. On the contrary they come under the law condemnation with death penalty as the wages of sin, because men’s self-love nature that is a sin against God’s agape nature could never fulfil the law demands. The only thing where the law demands is fulfilled and satisfied is when a man is led by the Spirit, when he serves the Spirit and not the flesh.
And keeping the law is a part of serving the flesh, because “the law is not of faith” and “whatever is not of faith is sin.” Fruit of faith is fruit of the Spirit, but without faith there is only deeds of the flesh, acts that were based on our self-love nature, the sin that dominates us. Obedience to the law comes from our own desire that were under dominion of sin and will only bore deeds of the flesh, no wonder all what the law could do is exposing their sin and condemns them with death. “The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
The theory that the 10 Cs still exist and binding after the cross and only the ceremonial law that was crucified was a big mistake, it leads people away from faith and focused on their works and effort to live according the demands of the law.
Christ didn’t come and die for nothing, he came to redeem men from death as the wages of sin and release them from the power of sin through his Spirit. But how could he work in us if obedience to the law only empowers sin to become stronger? This is contrary to each other, the Spirit doesn’t cooperate with the flesh desire, he doesn’t empowers sin but he will make a death to sin. And sin will never die as long a man keep and obey the law, as it is written “the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.”
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/28/02 04:58 PM
This just and holy law is the standard by which all will be judged in the last day. We need to ask ourselves the question, Are we making void the law of God, or are we standing in vindication of it? We should carefully examine our thoughts and words. {SW, August 14, 1906 par. 5}
Unquote,
Is this true? Is the 10 Commandments the standard law of judgment for all men at the last day?
Let’s study what the bible said.
“For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law; and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judge by the law” – Romans 2:12.
“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves” – Romans 2:14.
From these verses only we know that the 10 commandments is not the law that will judge all men, because the Gentiles who have not the law will not be judge by this commandment. The 10 Cs will only judge them who were under it, who keep and obey the law.
Romans 4:15 – “Because the law worketh wrath; for where no law is, there is no transgression.”
For the Gentiles who have not the law, if they commit a sin or evil acts, they will not be judge by the law (10 Cs) because since they are not under the law, the law can not judge them and condemn them.
Romans 5:13 – “For until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.”
That is logic and common sense! If there is no law, there is no transgression and if people made sin, their sin is not imputed because there is not a law that might judge them.
One more verse; “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law;” – Romans 3:19.
Clear and unmistakable, that the law of the 10 commandments is only for those who use it, who keep and obey it. For them the law will be a standard of judgment. But it is not a law that will judge other people who has not the law, who never hear about the law and who didn’t use it because it was nailed to the cross.
This is enough to counter EGW statement above that has no Scriptural basic.
In His love
James S.
Unquote,
Is this true? Is the 10 Commandments the standard law of judgment for all men at the last day?
Let’s study what the bible said.
“For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law; and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judge by the law” – Romans 2:12.
“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves” – Romans 2:14.
From these verses only we know that the 10 commandments is not the law that will judge all men, because the Gentiles who have not the law will not be judge by this commandment. The 10 Cs will only judge them who were under it, who keep and obey the law.
Romans 4:15 – “Because the law worketh wrath; for where no law is, there is no transgression.”
For the Gentiles who have not the law, if they commit a sin or evil acts, they will not be judge by the law (10 Cs) because since they are not under the law, the law can not judge them and condemn them.
Romans 5:13 – “For until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.”
That is logic and common sense! If there is no law, there is no transgression and if people made sin, their sin is not imputed because there is not a law that might judge them.
One more verse; “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law;” – Romans 3:19.
Clear and unmistakable, that the law of the 10 commandments is only for those who use it, who keep and obey it. For them the law will be a standard of judgment. But it is not a law that will judge other people who has not the law, who never hear about the law and who didn’t use it because it was nailed to the cross.
This is enough to counter EGW statement above that has no Scriptural basic.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/28/02 05:00 PM
Quoted from: Amazing Grace
Page 134
Chap. 126
Terms of the Covenant
That law of ten precepts of the greatest love that can be presented to man is the voice of God from heaven speaking to the soul in promise, "This do, and you will not come under the dominion and control of Satan." There is not a negative in that law, although it may appear thus. It is DO and Live.
The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized.
Unquote.
“This do, and you will not come under dominion and control of Satan.”
That is true, but instead to come under dominion and control of Satan, all law keepers will come under dominion of sin that is in them and dominated them, the sin of self-love. Due to this condition; “Now we know that what things so ever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law, there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin” – Romans 3:19,20.
Romans 6:14 – “For sin shall not have dominion over you; for ye are not under the law, but under grace” (KJV). Romans 6:14 – “For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace” (NIV).
Law keepers will come under dominion of sin, their sin of self-love, because their deeds how sincere it is, was based on their self-love nature. Those who are under the law obligation to keep and obey it, will come under God’s judgment because of their guilt, their sin of self-love that was exposed and revealed through their obedience.
Quote:
“The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness.”
Unquote.
The condition to maintain eternal life in Paradise before the fall is very much different and in contrary to the condition to maintain salvation after the fall.
Before the fall, men was created in God’s image and after his likeness, they were created with love agape as their nature. Perfect obedience is just a choice of their own because of their love for God and want to serve him earnestly, it is not a standard of God’s law as it may show God as a tyrant. What He wants from His creatures since their creation is to love each other and to love God their Creator. Love that seeks no self is the law in heaven and in Eden and forever till eternity.
But since the fall, faith in God is the standard to earn and maintain salvation. There is no place for obedience as a standard to earn and maintains eternal life, as no one can obey and fulfil the demands of God’s holy law. The law was given to Israel at Sinai that demands perfect obedience for a reward of eternal life (Leviticus 18:4,5), but God’s know that no one could obey. So, no one will be justified by their deeds of the law, on the contrary all become guilty before God and condemned with death sentence. For this reason Christ must come and die to redeem humanity.
Perfect obedience and perfect righteousness was never a part of earning and maintaining salvation after the fall. All men were saved by the grace of God because of their lack in righteousness and obedience, how could they do it if their nature is in contrary with the holy law of God that was based on his character? Men were saved and earn their eternal life solely on the mercy and grace of God through Christ works of redemption. All what he ask from us is “our faith” to believe in Christ and accepts his works.
In His love
James Saptenno
Page 134
Chap. 126
Terms of the Covenant
That law of ten precepts of the greatest love that can be presented to man is the voice of God from heaven speaking to the soul in promise, "This do, and you will not come under the dominion and control of Satan." There is not a negative in that law, although it may appear thus. It is DO and Live.
The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized.
Unquote.
“This do, and you will not come under dominion and control of Satan.”
That is true, but instead to come under dominion and control of Satan, all law keepers will come under dominion of sin that is in them and dominated them, the sin of self-love. Due to this condition; “Now we know that what things so ever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law, there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin” – Romans 3:19,20.
Romans 6:14 – “For sin shall not have dominion over you; for ye are not under the law, but under grace” (KJV). Romans 6:14 – “For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace” (NIV).
Law keepers will come under dominion of sin, their sin of self-love, because their deeds how sincere it is, was based on their self-love nature. Those who are under the law obligation to keep and obey it, will come under God’s judgment because of their guilt, their sin of self-love that was exposed and revealed through their obedience.
Quote:
“The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness.”
Unquote.
The condition to maintain eternal life in Paradise before the fall is very much different and in contrary to the condition to maintain salvation after the fall.
Before the fall, men was created in God’s image and after his likeness, they were created with love agape as their nature. Perfect obedience is just a choice of their own because of their love for God and want to serve him earnestly, it is not a standard of God’s law as it may show God as a tyrant. What He wants from His creatures since their creation is to love each other and to love God their Creator. Love that seeks no self is the law in heaven and in Eden and forever till eternity.
But since the fall, faith in God is the standard to earn and maintain salvation. There is no place for obedience as a standard to earn and maintains eternal life, as no one can obey and fulfil the demands of God’s holy law. The law was given to Israel at Sinai that demands perfect obedience for a reward of eternal life (Leviticus 18:4,5), but God’s know that no one could obey. So, no one will be justified by their deeds of the law, on the contrary all become guilty before God and condemned with death sentence. For this reason Christ must come and die to redeem humanity.
Perfect obedience and perfect righteousness was never a part of earning and maintaining salvation after the fall. All men were saved by the grace of God because of their lack in righteousness and obedience, how could they do it if their nature is in contrary with the holy law of God that was based on his character? Men were saved and earn their eternal life solely on the mercy and grace of God through Christ works of redemption. All what he ask from us is “our faith” to believe in Christ and accepts his works.
In His love
James Saptenno
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/28/02 05:01 PM
Quote.
Christ does not lessen the claims of the law. In unmistakable language He presents obedience to it as the condition of eternal life--the same condition that was required of Adam before his fall. . . . The requirement under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement made in Eden--harmony with God's law, which is holy, just, and good.
The standard of character presented in the Old Testament is the same that is presented in the New Testament. This standard is not one to which we cannot attain.
Unquote.
The law was never given as a part to earn and maintain salvation through perfect obedience and perfect righteousness according to the law, as that is impossible.
The command is: Obey and live, disobey and die!
But the fact is: Obey and die!
“Once I was alive apart from the law, but when the commandments came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment, that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceive me, and through the commandment put me to death” – Romans 7:9-11 (NIV).
“Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin (Romans 2:9; 3:19), so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe” – Galatians 3:21,22 (NIV).
Perfect obedience to the law and perfect righteousness demanded from Christ believers as preached today was a great apostasy, leading men away from Christ.
“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” – Romans 10:4 (KJV).
“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus” – Galatians 3:23-26 (KJV).
Once you come to believe Christ and want to live by faith, you come to an end of keeping and obeying the law, because if you maintain this, you will be lead astray from Christ all the way back to nowhere. In Christ is the standpoint to live by faith, to live according to the Spirit, to be led by the Spirit. It is a way of life to the gate of heaven and eternity. A newborn believer, Christ has crucified for you the old customs where you were raised with, now you serve with the newness of the spirit, a spirit filled with His Spirit that gives life, and no longer in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6) that will only lead to condemnation and death (2 Corinthians 3:6-9).
In His love
James S.
Christ does not lessen the claims of the law. In unmistakable language He presents obedience to it as the condition of eternal life--the same condition that was required of Adam before his fall. . . . The requirement under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement made in Eden--harmony with God's law, which is holy, just, and good.
The standard of character presented in the Old Testament is the same that is presented in the New Testament. This standard is not one to which we cannot attain.
Unquote.
The law was never given as a part to earn and maintain salvation through perfect obedience and perfect righteousness according to the law, as that is impossible.
The command is: Obey and live, disobey and die!
But the fact is: Obey and die!
“Once I was alive apart from the law, but when the commandments came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment, that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceive me, and through the commandment put me to death” – Romans 7:9-11 (NIV).
“Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin (Romans 2:9; 3:19), so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe” – Galatians 3:21,22 (NIV).
Perfect obedience to the law and perfect righteousness demanded from Christ believers as preached today was a great apostasy, leading men away from Christ.
“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” – Romans 10:4 (KJV).
“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus” – Galatians 3:23-26 (KJV).
Once you come to believe Christ and want to live by faith, you come to an end of keeping and obeying the law, because if you maintain this, you will be lead astray from Christ all the way back to nowhere. In Christ is the standpoint to live by faith, to live according to the Spirit, to be led by the Spirit. It is a way of life to the gate of heaven and eternity. A newborn believer, Christ has crucified for you the old customs where you were raised with, now you serve with the newness of the spirit, a spirit filled with His Spirit that gives life, and no longer in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6) that will only lead to condemnation and death (2 Corinthians 3:6-9).
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/29/02 06:56 AM
Romans 4
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Justification by faith accommodates sins confessed, forsaken and pardoned. The imputed death and righteousness of Jesus covers our past pardoned sins. It is entirely of faith. It is not a combination of faith and works.
Sanctification by faith, on the other hand, is the combination of faith and works. It is the imparted righteousness of Jesus. The Holy Spirit empowers born again believers to imitate the sinless example of Jesus.
Galatians 6
6 Faith which worketh by love.
Romans 13
10 Love is the fulfilling of the law.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Justification by faith accommodates sins confessed, forsaken and pardoned. The imputed death and righteousness of Jesus covers our past pardoned sins. It is entirely of faith. It is not a combination of faith and works.
Sanctification by faith, on the other hand, is the combination of faith and works. It is the imparted righteousness of Jesus. The Holy Spirit empowers born again believers to imitate the sinless example of Jesus.
Galatians 6
6 Faith which worketh by love.
Romans 13
10 Love is the fulfilling of the law.
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/28/02 08:18 PM
quote:
The lawyer spoke just as he was convicted, and Christ confirmed him in his interpretation of the law. "And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right; this do, and thou shalt live." How beautiful was this truth in its simplicity! This is what God requires of us. Through faith in Jesus Christ as our substitute, surety, and righteousness, we may lay hold upon divine power, so that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. The keeping of God's commandments is an evidence of our faith in Christ as our divine Saviour. John says, "This is the love of God, that we keep his commandments; and his commandments are not grievous." Again he writes, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." {ST, July 2, 1896 par. 6}
quote:Psalms 119:47
He that abideth in Christ is perfected in the love of God, and his purposes, thoughts, words, and actions are in harmony with the will of God expressed in the commandments of His law. There is nothing in the heart of the man who abides in Christ that is at war with any precept of God's law. Where the Spirit of Christ is in the heart, the character of Christ will be revealed, and there will be manifested gentleness under provocation, and patience under trial. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." Righteousness can be defined only by God's great moral standard, the Ten Commandments. There is no other rule by which to measure character.--Signs of the Times, June 20, 1895. {RC 59.4}
And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.
Psalms 119:127
Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold.
Posted By: John H.
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/28/02 08:27 PM
James,
What you're proposing is a curious mix of truth and error. For example, you wrote:
The Ten Commandments are a transcript of God's very character, put in human language; and God's character is love personified. So it can be said that the Ten Commandments are a transcript of love. If we love God, we will keep the first Four, and if we love our fellow man, we will keep the latter Six. "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22:37-40.
The letter of the law kills, simply because "the wages of sin is death". Romans 6:23. Since sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4), Paul's statement could well be stated "the wages of the transgression of the law is death". That's why the law kills. It points out sin, and demands the death of the transgressor. Jesus paid that death penalty for us, and gives us the Spirit so that we may keep that Law from henceforth. ("Go, and sin no more" - John 8:11) Being "under the law" means being under its condemnation. Being "not under the law, but under grace" means being no longer condemned by that Law; but it doesn't mean freedom from keeping the Law! As Paul says, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31.
You speak of being spiritual; well, Paul clearly says that a spiritual person will be subject to the law of God, in no uncertain terms. "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His." Romans 8:6-9.
Notice the opposite counterpoints -- the carnal and the spiritual. Paul plainly says that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, and cannot please God. The opposite of that, then, is the spiritual mind that pleases God, and is subject to the law of God. The language here is too plain to be misunderstood.
Speaking of the New Covenant in Hebrews 10:16, Paul quotes Jeremiah 31:31-33 when he writes, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." To which law was Jeremiah referring when he originally wrote the quoted passage in Old Testament times? Why, the Ten Commandments, of course. Paul says that this same Law is what the Holy Spirit wants to write in the hearts and minds of New Testament believers. Instead of writing them on stone, God wants to write them in our souls, that we might enabled to be obedient.
You also wrote,
Also you said this:
I could go on, but this grows lengthy. Suffice it to say that keeping the law is the duty of every Spirit-filled Christian. You're correct in saying that the underlying motive must be a heart filled with love; that much is most certainly true. But love doesn't cancel the concrete claims of the Law of God, which is the standard by which all will be judged. "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." Ecclesiastes 12:13. "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14.
What you're proposing is a curious mix of truth and error. For example, you wrote:
quote:That's just not possible. No human being can keep the Ten Commandments without the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit; and one of the fruits of the Spirit is love. So if a person is keeping the Commandments, that person will have the Spirit living in him/her, and so will have the fruit of love. No two ways about it. Keeping the Ten Commandments perfectly but without love is just a complete contradiction in terms.
People may keep and obey the whole Ten perfectly but without love.
The Ten Commandments are a transcript of God's very character, put in human language; and God's character is love personified. So it can be said that the Ten Commandments are a transcript of love. If we love God, we will keep the first Four, and if we love our fellow man, we will keep the latter Six. "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22:37-40.
The letter of the law kills, simply because "the wages of sin is death". Romans 6:23. Since sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4), Paul's statement could well be stated "the wages of the transgression of the law is death". That's why the law kills. It points out sin, and demands the death of the transgressor. Jesus paid that death penalty for us, and gives us the Spirit so that we may keep that Law from henceforth. ("Go, and sin no more" - John 8:11) Being "under the law" means being under its condemnation. Being "not under the law, but under grace" means being no longer condemned by that Law; but it doesn't mean freedom from keeping the Law! As Paul says, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31.
You speak of being spiritual; well, Paul clearly says that a spiritual person will be subject to the law of God, in no uncertain terms. "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His." Romans 8:6-9.
Notice the opposite counterpoints -- the carnal and the spiritual. Paul plainly says that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, and cannot please God. The opposite of that, then, is the spiritual mind that pleases God, and is subject to the law of God. The language here is too plain to be misunderstood.
Speaking of the New Covenant in Hebrews 10:16, Paul quotes Jeremiah 31:31-33 when he writes, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." To which law was Jeremiah referring when he originally wrote the quoted passage in Old Testament times? Why, the Ten Commandments, of course. Paul says that this same Law is what the Holy Spirit wants to write in the hearts and minds of New Testament believers. Instead of writing them on stone, God wants to write them in our souls, that we might enabled to be obedient.
You also wrote,
quote:That's a misinterpretation of the word "end", in the verse quoted. It doesn't mean "termination", or "cessation of existence". It means purpose or objective; the law points to Christ and His righteousness. If, as you say, the ministration of the law ended with Christ, how do you explain the passage in Hebrews above that speaks of God writing that Law in the hearts and minds of New Testament believers? The whole thing falls into a shambles if we are to accept what you're saying here. What has changed is the method of ministration, not the law itself. Instead of an external arrangement, where the law is written on tables of stone, in the New Covenant the law is written "not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." 2 Corinthians 3:3.
"Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" – Romans 10:4.
In Christ by faith, the ministration of the law ended for those who believe, so that righteousness might be given as a free gift instead of condemnation and death through obedience to the law that could never justify its law keepers.
Also you said this:
quote:Not true, simply because the law never has been a way to earn life by obedience. A faulty premise leads to a faulty conclusion, I'm afraid. There has only been one way to receive eternal life throughout the ages, and that's the same way we can receive it now: through faith in the only begotten Son of God, and appropriating His merits to ourselves through that faith. Nobody has ever earned salvation by obedience to the law, and never will. That's the whole thrust of the book of Romans. Look at Hebrews 11 -- all of those Old Testament saints did what they did through *faith*. From Adam on down, every saint who has ever served God did it through the operation of faith. No one ever 'earned' one iota of salvation by keeping the law -- that's just not possible. Once we sin even once, we deserve nothing but death. The whole of salvation is a gift; but that doesn't mean we don't have a part to play.
Christ himself has made an end to the law as a way to earn life by obedience for justification.
I could go on, but this grows lengthy. Suffice it to say that keeping the law is the duty of every Spirit-filled Christian. You're correct in saying that the underlying motive must be a heart filled with love; that much is most certainly true. But love doesn't cancel the concrete claims of the Law of God, which is the standard by which all will be judged. "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." Ecclesiastes 12:13. "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14.
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/28/02 09:59 PM
Thank you John for a very well done and I might add spiritual post.
Posted By: zyph
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/29/02 12:32 AM
I'm sorry. I thought Jesus life lived out for us was the standard by which we'll be judged, and our salvation is based on our acceptance of Him, not on whether we did 17 good things and only one bad - or do we have to do 18 good things to earn heaven? I thought obedience was the evidence of our relationship, not the cause. Or does Jesus only walk with the righteous? I thought He came to save sinners. I thought the ten commandments were a mirror, not a ticket to heaven.
Posted By: Dedreic
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/29/02 04:09 AM
Hi Zyph and others,
You are right... Jesus was the example.. follow Him and you'll be right on the mark. He kept the commandments, so should we, out of love. Doing what Jesus asks is not grievous, it is a Joy if you love Him. It is not legalism to follow God out of love, when He asks you to do something. His yoke is easy and burden light.
"Not by works lest any should boast"
Cheers
Dedreic
You are right... Jesus was the example.. follow Him and you'll be right on the mark. He kept the commandments, so should we, out of love. Doing what Jesus asks is not grievous, it is a Joy if you love Him. It is not legalism to follow God out of love, when He asks you to do something. His yoke is easy and burden light.
"Not by works lest any should boast"
Cheers
Dedreic
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/29/02 06:29 AM
Obedience is not something we do out of love for Jesus. He doesn't set us free and then we go on and obey the law by ourself.
Philippians 2
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Jesus saves us and then, out of love for us, He empowers us to live without sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. It's all of Jesus.
Philippians 2
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Jesus saves us and then, out of love for us, He empowers us to live without sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. It's all of Jesus.
Posted By: John H.
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/29/02 08:24 AM
zyph,
It's true in a sense that Jesus' perfect life is the standard; but what is the measuring stick by which that perfect life is shown to be perfect? It's the law of God, certainly. That's the overarching standard by which all human behavior is measured, Christ's included. Sure He kept it perfectly, and so His life is the standard of human behavior we should endeavor to imitate; the 99.9999th percentile, so to speak. Sin-weakened humans can do this through His power only; anything else is impossible. "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags"; Isaiah 64:6. But James clearly says that the Ten Commandments are the standard by which all will be judged; James 2:10-12.
Jesus lived a life and did no sin; but without the Law, nobody would even be able to know this. "By the law is the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:20). The only real concrete definition of sin given in the Bible is that it is "the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4); so the law can be the only standard by which to judge sin, by its very nature, and the very definition of what sin is.
Obedience to the Ten Commandments isn't a ticket to heaven, certainly not; only complete acceptance of and faith in Christ is. But disobedience to the Ten Commandments can surely be a ticket to hell:
"For if we sin [transgress the law] wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." -- Hebrews 10:26,27.
"Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." -- Romans 1:29-32.
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:8.
Dedreic and Mike: right on.
As the Lord said, "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." -- John 15:4,5.
"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." -- Galatians 5:22,23.
Avalee: thanks for the kind words.
It's true in a sense that Jesus' perfect life is the standard; but what is the measuring stick by which that perfect life is shown to be perfect? It's the law of God, certainly. That's the overarching standard by which all human behavior is measured, Christ's included. Sure He kept it perfectly, and so His life is the standard of human behavior we should endeavor to imitate; the 99.9999th percentile, so to speak. Sin-weakened humans can do this through His power only; anything else is impossible. "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags"; Isaiah 64:6. But James clearly says that the Ten Commandments are the standard by which all will be judged; James 2:10-12.
Jesus lived a life and did no sin; but without the Law, nobody would even be able to know this. "By the law is the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:20). The only real concrete definition of sin given in the Bible is that it is "the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4); so the law can be the only standard by which to judge sin, by its very nature, and the very definition of what sin is.
Obedience to the Ten Commandments isn't a ticket to heaven, certainly not; only complete acceptance of and faith in Christ is. But disobedience to the Ten Commandments can surely be a ticket to hell:
"For if we sin [transgress the law] wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." -- Hebrews 10:26,27.
"Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." -- Romans 1:29-32.
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:8.
Dedreic and Mike: right on.
As the Lord said, "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." -- John 15:4,5.
"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." -- Galatians 5:22,23.
Avalee: thanks for the kind words.
Posted By: zyph
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/29/02 12:11 PM
If obedience can't get you into heaven, how can disobedience keep you out? It doesn't compute. You can't have it both ways. Obedience either qualifies, and therefore earns you points, or it is an irresistible symptom of the acceptance of Christ's sacrifice moment by moment. You can't sin in the presence of God, when He is posessing you. Sinning is merely an evidence of your status or growth, and is not the causative factor. Eve had already started to trust herself instead of God before she actively sinned.
We need to get this very clear. Works are not the focus. Jesus is. Try to seek Him instead of seeking works, and you will have all the works you need. It is a subtle deception to continually focus on works as a causative factor.
We need to get this very clear. Works are not the focus. Jesus is. Try to seek Him instead of seeking works, and you will have all the works you need. It is a subtle deception to continually focus on works as a causative factor.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/29/02 03:08 PM
For a thought.
When The Spirit leads a faithful believer who lives by the Spirit, what happens?
He will have the fruit of the Spirit; love that seeks no self in it. Now, he is able to love his fellow men. Now he did keep the law of God although the deeds are not done based on his own desire but the Spirit desire.
So, is there any use of the law (10 Cs) for him? None!
Even there is no law, he will not break any law as if there is a law, but he will live according to the principle of heaven with loving his fellow men.
In a faith relationship with God through a lie by the Spirit, there is no place for our own desire in obedience to the law, because this is done by the Spirit, it is the desire of the Spirit.
All what we can wish and do is based on our self-love nature and that is against the Spirit desire. We must “emptying our self”, we must die in order Christ might live in us and lead our life. “I is no longer “I” that live but Christ that lives in me”.
The only thing we can wish that is in accordance with what the Spirit desire is to deny our self, to deny the flesh, because the Spirit of Christ wants to release us from the power of sin, from the desire of the flesh. “Where the Spirit is, there is freedom.”
But how could the Spirit release us from the power of sin if we want to keep and obey the law, as keeping the law empowers sin in us to become stronger and exceeding sinful?
Galatians 5:18 “But if you live by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”
Clear and unmistakable! If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under any obligation to keep the law, you are not under the law authority, you are not under it judgment and at last you are not under it condemnation.
In His love
James S.
When The Spirit leads a faithful believer who lives by the Spirit, what happens?
He will have the fruit of the Spirit; love that seeks no self in it. Now, he is able to love his fellow men. Now he did keep the law of God although the deeds are not done based on his own desire but the Spirit desire.
So, is there any use of the law (10 Cs) for him? None!
Even there is no law, he will not break any law as if there is a law, but he will live according to the principle of heaven with loving his fellow men.
In a faith relationship with God through a lie by the Spirit, there is no place for our own desire in obedience to the law, because this is done by the Spirit, it is the desire of the Spirit.
All what we can wish and do is based on our self-love nature and that is against the Spirit desire. We must “emptying our self”, we must die in order Christ might live in us and lead our life. “I is no longer “I” that live but Christ that lives in me”.
The only thing we can wish that is in accordance with what the Spirit desire is to deny our self, to deny the flesh, because the Spirit of Christ wants to release us from the power of sin, from the desire of the flesh. “Where the Spirit is, there is freedom.”
But how could the Spirit release us from the power of sin if we want to keep and obey the law, as keeping the law empowers sin in us to become stronger and exceeding sinful?
Galatians 5:18 “But if you live by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”
Clear and unmistakable! If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under any obligation to keep the law, you are not under the law authority, you are not under it judgment and at last you are not under it condemnation.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/29/02 03:09 PM
James,
What you're proposing is a curious mix of truth and error. For example, you wrote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People may keep and obey the whole Ten perfectly but without love.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's just not possible. No human being can keep the Ten Commandments without the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit; and one of the fruits of the Spirit is love. So if a person is keeping the Commandments, that person will have the Spirit living in him/her, and so will have the fruit of love. No two ways about it. Keeping the Ten Commandments perfectly but without love is just a complete contradiction in terms.
Unquote.
John.
Read Philippians 3:6, if Paul before his conversion could keep the law perfectly, so would many others. But was he happy with this? No! He threw it away and turns his heart to Christ
Philippians 3:5-9 (NIV).
5If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.
In His love
James S.
What you're proposing is a curious mix of truth and error. For example, you wrote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People may keep and obey the whole Ten perfectly but without love.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's just not possible. No human being can keep the Ten Commandments without the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit; and one of the fruits of the Spirit is love. So if a person is keeping the Commandments, that person will have the Spirit living in him/her, and so will have the fruit of love. No two ways about it. Keeping the Ten Commandments perfectly but without love is just a complete contradiction in terms.
Unquote.
John.
Read Philippians 3:6, if Paul before his conversion could keep the law perfectly, so would many others. But was he happy with this? No! He threw it away and turns his heart to Christ
Philippians 3:5-9 (NIV).
5If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/29/02 03:18 PM
John.
It seems to me that you only know that if you break the law, you commit a sin. So, if you keep it you are righteous.
But do you know that without breaking the law, you already live in sin?
Do you also know that obeying the law makes you a sinner?
What is our comment on the other topic: SIN and sin.
In His love
James S.
It seems to me that you only know that if you break the law, you commit a sin. So, if you keep it you are righteous.
But do you know that without breaking the law, you already live in sin?
Do you also know that obeying the law makes you a sinner?
What is our comment on the other topic: SIN and sin.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/30/02 06:30 AM
Zyph, here's to your last post - Amen! Good works, even Spirit-powered works, cannot earn us a place in heaven. And neither can evil works keep us out of heaven. "All have sinned." Salvation does not depend on works, it depends on Jesus. And like you said, when we have Jesus we'll have all the good works we need. So cool! Thank you Jesus.
The Desire of Ages, page 489, paragraph 5
"The True Witness says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock." Rev. 3:20. Every warning, reproof, and entreaty in the word of God or through His messengers is a knock at the door of the heart. It is the voice of Jesus asking for entrance. With every knock unheeded, the disposition to open becomes weaker. The impressions of the Holy Spirit if disregarded today, will not be as strong tomorrow. The heart becomes less impressible, and lapses into a perilous unconsciousness of the shortness of life, and of the great eternity beyond. Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have been in error, but from the fact that we have neglected heaven-sent opportunities for learning what is truth."
[ May 29, 2002, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]
The Desire of Ages, page 489, paragraph 5
"The True Witness says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock." Rev. 3:20. Every warning, reproof, and entreaty in the word of God or through His messengers is a knock at the door of the heart. It is the voice of Jesus asking for entrance. With every knock unheeded, the disposition to open becomes weaker. The impressions of the Holy Spirit if disregarded today, will not be as strong tomorrow. The heart becomes less impressible, and lapses into a perilous unconsciousness of the shortness of life, and of the great eternity beyond. Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have been in error, but from the fact that we have neglected heaven-sent opportunities for learning what is truth."
[ May 29, 2002, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/29/02 07:09 PM
quote:
Amazing Grace
Page 141
God's Law is its Standard
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Eccl. 12:13
Before the foundations of the earth were laid, the covenant was made that all who were obedient, all who should through the abundant grace provided, become holy in character, and without blame before God, by appropriating that grace, should be children of God. This covenant, made from eternity, was given to Abraham hundreds of years before Christ came. With what interest and what intensity did Christ in humanity study the human race to see if they would avail themselves of the provision offered.
In His teachings, Christ showed how far-reaching are the principles of the law spoken from Sinai. He made a living application of that law whose principles remain forever the great standard of righteousness--the standard by which all shall be judged in that great day when the judgment shall sit, and the books shall be opened. He came to fulfill all righteousness, and, as the head of humanity, to show man that he can do the same work, meeting every specification of the requirements of God. Through the measure of His grace furnished to the human agent, not one need miss heaven. Perfection of character is attainable by every one who strives for it. This is made the very foundation of the new covenant of the gospel. The law of Jehovah is the tree; the gospel is the fragrant blossoms and fruit which it bears.
God's law is the transcript of His character. It embodies the principles of His kingdom. He who refuses to accept these principles is placing himself outside the channel where God's blessings flow.
The glorious possibilities set before Israel could be realized only through obedience to God's commandments. The same elevation of character, the same fulness of blessing--blessing on mind and soul and body, blessing on house and field, blessing for this life and for the life to come--is possible for us only through obedience.
Let us not lower the standard, but keep it lifted high, looking to Him who is the Author and the Finisher of our faith.
In The Blessed Hope
Avalee
[ May 29, 2002, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Avalee ]
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/29/02 07:30 PM
quote:Isaiah 59:1
Will man take hold of divine power, and with determination and perseverance resist Satan, as Christ has given him example in His conflict with the foe in the wilderness of temptation? God cannot save man against his will from the power of Satan's artifices. Man must work with his human power, aided by the divine power of Christ, to resist and to conquer at any cost to himself. In short, man must overcome as Christ overcame. And then, through the victory that it is his privilege to gain by the all-powerful name of Jesus, he may become an heir of God and joint-heir with Jesus Christ. This could not be the case if Christ alone did all the overcoming. Man must do his part; he must be victor on his own account, through the strength and grace that Christ gives him. Man must be a co-worker with Christ in the labor of overcoming, and then he will be partaker with Christ in His glory. {SD 156.3}
Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Posted By: John H.
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/29/02 07:55 PM
zyph -
If it's true that we can't sin when God is 'possessing' us, then all the warnings in the New Testament about falling away from the truth become meaningless. Hebrews 10:26,27 quoted above is one, here are some more:
"Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." -- Romans 11:20-22.
"But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." -- Galatians 2:17,18.
"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath He reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard..." -- Colossians 1:21-23.
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame." -- Hebrews 6:4-6. Language can't be any plainer. People can sin, and fall away, after having been truly Spirit-filled Christians.
"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." -- 2 Peter 1:10. Peter wouldn't say this if there were no possibility of falling.
"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." -- 2 Peter 2:20,21.
Many more examples could be produced.
Faith is vital, but works are equally vital. "Faith without works is dead." James 2:20. Ellen White wrote, "Faith and works are two oars which we must use equally." -- Review and Herald, June 11, 1901. Faith comes first, then the Spirit-driven works will follow. I think you're trying to guard against the cart-before-the-horse syndrome of emphasizing works before faith; but that's not what I'm about here.
James -
I see what you're trying to say here: that the Spirit-filled Christian doesn't need the law, because the Spirit will lead the believer to live in such a way that he/she doesn't sin. That's the same thing that those opposed to God's law have said for centuries. The fallacy here is that such a philosophy puts central emphasis on feelings. "I'm doing whatever the Spirit convicts me of, so I don't need to worry about following any law."
That might sound all fine and good; if we could never be deceived by our feelings, everything would be hunky-dory. But "there is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." -- Proverbs 14:12.
I know professing Christians who say they don't feel any need of keeping the seventh-day sabbath, "because the Spirit hasn't convicted me about it." They're ignoring God's law as given in His word, preferring to give weight to their feelings. Therein lies the danger. We need a concrete standard against which to measure our behavior, else we're relying on our feelings only; and feelings can deceive us. We can believe we're being led of the Spirit, when the very opposite is true. Paul shows that the Christian can fall into a spirit of deception: writing to the believers at Corinth, he said, "Let no man deceive himself." -- 1 Corinthians 3:18. Many are the professed Christians who believe they're "following the leadings of the Spirit", when they're doing nothing of the sort. Witness some of the excesses of the Pentecostal movement for a good example of this.
Looking at Galatians 5:22,23 again: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."
Don't you see? What the Spirit is doing, while producing these fruits in our lives, is helping us to come into obedience to God's Law! The two processes are one and the same. That's why the apostle says that "against such [these fruits of the Spirit] there is no law".
quote:Put simply, because Scripture says so, hundreds and hundreds of times. Our own human obedience can't earn our way to heaven. Only Christ's obedience can. But our own disobedience can disqualify us; the Bible writers say so hundreds, perhaps thousands, of times. There aren't many things that are more clearly, and repeatedly, stated in the Bible.
If obedience can't get you into heaven, how can disobedience keep you out?
quote:Then why does John say, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9)? If we can't sin while 'possessed of God', then there's no need for John's mention of confessing our sins and being forgiven of them, after having become Christians. We have freedom of choice, and can certainly choose to sin, even while indwelled with the Spirit.
You can't sin in the presence of God, when He is posessing you.
If it's true that we can't sin when God is 'possessing' us, then all the warnings in the New Testament about falling away from the truth become meaningless. Hebrews 10:26,27 quoted above is one, here are some more:
"Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." -- Romans 11:20-22.
"But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." -- Galatians 2:17,18.
"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath He reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard..." -- Colossians 1:21-23.
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame." -- Hebrews 6:4-6. Language can't be any plainer. People can sin, and fall away, after having been truly Spirit-filled Christians.
"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." -- 2 Peter 1:10. Peter wouldn't say this if there were no possibility of falling.
"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." -- 2 Peter 2:20,21.
Many more examples could be produced.
quote:Quite true. I haven't seen anyone here who's trying to make works the focus. To the contrary, those who are stressing works at all (myself included) are saying that it's only through the power of Christ that we can do good works acceptable to God. "Without faith it is impossible to please Him." -- Hebrews 11:6. Jesus is the focus, the source of strength. "Without Me ye can do nothing." -- John 15:5.
We need to get this very clear. Works are not the focus. Jesus is.
Faith is vital, but works are equally vital. "Faith without works is dead." James 2:20. Ellen White wrote, "Faith and works are two oars which we must use equally." -- Review and Herald, June 11, 1901. Faith comes first, then the Spirit-driven works will follow. I think you're trying to guard against the cart-before-the-horse syndrome of emphasizing works before faith; but that's not what I'm about here.
James -
quote:This is a dangerous way of thinking. Everybody needs the law, so that they might know what sin is. "By the law is the knowledge of sin." -- Romans 3:20.
He will have the fruit of the Spirit; love that seeks no self in it. Now, he is able to love his fellow men. Now he did keep the law of God although the deeds are not done based on his own desire but the Spirit desire.
So, is there any use of the law (10 Cs) for him? None!
I see what you're trying to say here: that the Spirit-filled Christian doesn't need the law, because the Spirit will lead the believer to live in such a way that he/she doesn't sin. That's the same thing that those opposed to God's law have said for centuries. The fallacy here is that such a philosophy puts central emphasis on feelings. "I'm doing whatever the Spirit convicts me of, so I don't need to worry about following any law."
That might sound all fine and good; if we could never be deceived by our feelings, everything would be hunky-dory. But "there is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." -- Proverbs 14:12.
I know professing Christians who say they don't feel any need of keeping the seventh-day sabbath, "because the Spirit hasn't convicted me about it." They're ignoring God's law as given in His word, preferring to give weight to their feelings. Therein lies the danger. We need a concrete standard against which to measure our behavior, else we're relying on our feelings only; and feelings can deceive us. We can believe we're being led of the Spirit, when the very opposite is true. Paul shows that the Christian can fall into a spirit of deception: writing to the believers at Corinth, he said, "Let no man deceive himself." -- 1 Corinthians 3:18. Many are the professed Christians who believe they're "following the leadings of the Spirit", when they're doing nothing of the sort. Witness some of the excesses of the Pentecostal movement for a good example of this.
quote:I'd say there's place for both our desire to be obedient, and that of the Spirit. To wit, Christ said this: "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." -- Psalm 40:8; cf. Hebrews 10:9. Since He's our example, this should be our attitude as well. We are "workers together with Him" (2 Corinthians 6:1); our desires should mirror His desires, as reflected in the desires of the Spirit for our lives.
In a faith relationship with God through a li[f]e by the Spirit, there is no place for our own desire in obedience to the law, because this is done by the Spirit, it is the desire of the Spirit.
quote:What you're missing is that the Spirit empowers us to obey the law, so that it has no more power over us. The law only has power over those who break it, i.e. commit sin.
But how could the Spirit release us from the power of sin if we want to keep and obey the law, as keeping the law empowers sin in us to become stronger and exceeding sinful?
quote:Absolutely.
Galatians 5:18 “But if you live by the Spirit, you are not under the law.” Clear and unmistakable!
quote:Absolutely wrong. Many Bible verses have been given here that show beyond all question our obligation to obey God's law; I don't see how you can continue to believe that we have none. One of the central themes of the Bible is that God's people should not sin. Sin = breaking the law, so refraining from sinning = obeying the law. It's as simple as that. We can't do this in our own strength; but we are to do it in God's strength, through the power of the indwelling Spirit of Christ, that His life might be reproduced in us. Jesus obeyed the Ten Commandments, by His own testimony; how anyone can possibly think that it's wrong for Christian believers to walk as their Lord walked, is beyond me.
If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under any obligation to keep the law
quote:Correct, and the reason is that the Spirit helps us obey the Law! If we're not breaking it, then the law has no power over us. To use a much simpler picture, if we obey the speed limit, we won't get a speeding ticket.
you are not under the law authority, you are not under it judgment and at last you are not under it condemnation.
Looking at Galatians 5:22,23 again: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."
Don't you see? What the Spirit is doing, while producing these fruits in our lives, is helping us to come into obedience to God's Law! The two processes are one and the same. That's why the apostle says that "against such [these fruits of the Spirit] there is no law".
quote:The thing about it is, that Paul was not actually keeping the law perfectly before his conversion. In a Pharisaical way he was keeping the law, in the eyes of the unconverted Jews and the world he was; but Jesus showed that the Pharisees' definition of keeping the law of God was sorely lacking: "For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:20. Jesus showed that the outward method of keeping the law engaged in by the Pharisees and other Jews did not meet God's requirement; the inner motives are much more important. Paul was himself a Pharisee, and it is this outward, hollow, inadequate, Christless way of keeping the law to which he refers in Philippians 3:6. That Paul was not obeying God's law before his conversion is shown pretty starkly by the fact that at the time, he was hunting down Christians and consenting to their deaths.
Read Philippians 3:6, if Paul before his conversion could keep the law perfectly, so would many others.
quote:I'm not sure exactly what you mean there -- once we sin even the very first time, we're living in sin ever after that, yes. Until we submit to Jesus and receive forgiveness. We're born with sin-weakened natures, but we don't actually 'live in sin' until we commit a sin personally.
But do you know that without breaking the law, you already live in sin?
quote:If we're trying to obey the law in our own strength, yes it does. We can't rise above being sinners by ourselves. We need the forgiveness Christ provides, and His strength through the Spirit to obey. But obeying the law through the Spirit's strength, by letting Christ live through us, does not make us sinners, not by any means. Christ Himself obeyed the law through the Spirit's strength. Did that make Him a sinner?
Do you also know that obeying the law makes you a sinner?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/29/02 10:36 PM
Avalee wrote:
"When we with our human power combine it with the divine power of Christ we will be overcomers as Christ did. We can not do this alone. We have to have the divine power of Christ. I think this is a beautiful promise. The picture that comes into my mind is the one we see where Jesus is reaching down his arm to grasp our arm. If I had a graphic of it I would put it here."
I think your statement puts the cart before the horse. Perhaps it's symantics (the curse of the English language), but I believe it would be more accurate to phrase it this way:
"When we consent to allow Jesus to combine His divine nature with our human nature, He can then empower us to overcome as He overcame."
Do you see the difference? The emphasis is on how Jesus can use us, rather than on how we can use Him.
"When we with our human power combine it with the divine power of Christ we will be overcomers as Christ did. We can not do this alone. We have to have the divine power of Christ. I think this is a beautiful promise. The picture that comes into my mind is the one we see where Jesus is reaching down his arm to grasp our arm. If I had a graphic of it I would put it here."
I think your statement puts the cart before the horse. Perhaps it's symantics (the curse of the English language), but I believe it would be more accurate to phrase it this way:
"When we consent to allow Jesus to combine His divine nature with our human nature, He can then empower us to overcome as He overcame."
Do you see the difference? The emphasis is on how Jesus can use us, rather than on how we can use Him.
Posted By: Edward F Sutton
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/30/02 12:07 AM
The SOP quote Avalee posted, looking a little deeper.
Will man take hold of divine power, and with determination and perseverance resist Satan, as Christ has given him example in His conflict with the foe in the wilderness of temptation?
Isaiah 27:5 Or let him take hold <02388> (8686) of my strength <04581>, that he may make <06213> (8799) peace <07965> with me; and he shall make <06213> (8799) peace <07965> with me.
Isaiah 56:4 For thus saith <0559> (8804) the LORD <03068> unto the eunuchs <05631> that keep <08104> (8799) my sabbaths <07676>, and choose <0977> (8804) the things that please <02654> (8804) me, and take hold <02388> (8688) of my covenant <01285>;
Isaiah 64:7 And there is none that calleth <07121> (8802) upon thy name <08034>, that stirreth up <05782> (8711) himself to take hold <02388> (8687) of thee: for thou hast hid <05641> (8689) thy face <06440> from us, and hast consumed <04127> (8799) us, because <03027> of our iniquities <05771>.
02388 qzx chazaq khaw-zak’
a primitive root; TWOT-636; v
AV-strong 48, repair 47, hold 37, strengthened 28, strengthen 14, harden 13, prevail 10, encourage 9, take 9, courage 8, caught 5, stronger 5, hold 5, misc 52; 290
1) to strengthen, prevail, harden, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to be strong, grow strong
1a1a) to prevail, prevail upon
1a1b) to be firm, be caught fast, be secure
1a1c) to press, be urgent
1a1d) to grow stout, grow rigid, grow hard (bad sense)
1a1e) to be severe, be grievous
1a2) to strengthen
1b) (Piel)
1b1) to make strong
1b2) to restore to strength, give strength
1b3) to strengthen, sustain, encourage
1b4) to make strong, make bold, encourage
1b5) to make firm
1b6) to make rigid, make hard
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to make strong, strengthen
1c2) to make firm
1c3) to display strength
1c4) to make severe
1c5) to support
1c6) to repair
1c7) to prevail, prevail upon
1c8) to have or take or keep hold of, retain, hold up, sustain, support
1c9) to hold, contain
1d) (Hithpael)
1d1) to strengthen oneself
1d2) to put forth strength, use one’s strength
1d3) to withstand
1d4) to hold strongly with
02388. qzx chazaq khaw-zak’; a primitive root; to fasten upon; hence, to seize, be strong (figuratively, courageous, causatively strengthen, cure, help, repair, fortify), obstinate; to bind, restrain, conquer:—aid, amend, X calker, catch, cleave, confirm, be constant, constrain, continue, be of good (take) courage(-ous, —ly), encourage (self), be established, fasten, force, fortify, make hard, harden, help, (lay) hold (fast), lean, maintain, play the man, mend, become (wax) mighty, prevail, be recovered, repair, retain, seize, be (wax) sore, strengthen (self), be stout, be (make, shew, wax) strong(-er), be sure, take (hold), be urgent, behave self valiantly, withstand.
***************************
God cannot save man against his will from the power of Satan's artifices.
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Luke 13:
23 ¶ Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
***********************
Man must work with his human power, aided by the divine power of Christ, to resist and to conquer at any cost to himself.
Luke 14:
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
********************
In short, man must overcome as Christ overcame. And then, through the victory that it is his privilege to gain by the all-powerful name of Jesus, he may become an heir of God and joint-heir with Jesus Christ.
This could not be the case if Christ alone did all the overcoming.
Man must do his part; he must be victor on his own account, through the strength and grace that Christ gives him.
Man must be a co-worker with Christ in the labor of overcoming, and then he will be partaker with Christ in His glory. {SD 156.3}
1 Corinthians 9:
24 ¶ Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Psalms 20:2 Send thee help from the sanctuary, and strengthen thee out of Zion;
Isaiah 41:10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Active obedience of God's truths has a purpose within you, but obedience takes heart work with God and from God & human efforts directed to achive that obedience. Christ's presence motivates for obedience, but does not decide for you, strengthens you as you strive to obey, but does not move your body for you. Christ involves you in the process with everything you have, or your whole heart is not there. You would be doubleminded and excluded. Everything you have is still insufficent but essential, everything Christ has is fully sufficent and essential, but unused till you co-labor on His terms. For example I could not till up an overgrown wild field with my fingers, a tractor could do it without much effort upon it's capacities. A tractor will not cultivate the field without a driver operating it. Christ is like the tractor and the experienced farmer teaching the "greenhorn", but He will never do it for you, but always with you. The things you are not expected to do, those things He does for you.
************************
Relooking at the SOP quote in it's specifics I think Avalee's synopsis is accuratly worded. Jesus in His battle to overcome was never a passive recipient of the grace of God. "Use it or lose" "win or lose" it seems to apply here. The first battle is in the heart of man, the next battle is with his circumstances. Conquering both battles strengthens the action of each victory in the other battle, in the heart. The heart battle with victory strengthens the person for the expectation of victory in the circumstances battle, and victory over circumstances solidifies the victory in the heart.
[ May 29, 2002, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]
Will man take hold of divine power, and with determination and perseverance resist Satan, as Christ has given him example in His conflict with the foe in the wilderness of temptation?
Isaiah 27:5 Or let him take hold <02388> (8686) of my strength <04581>, that he may make <06213> (8799) peace <07965> with me; and he shall make <06213> (8799) peace <07965> with me.
Isaiah 56:4 For thus saith <0559> (8804) the LORD <03068> unto the eunuchs <05631> that keep <08104> (8799) my sabbaths <07676>, and choose <0977> (8804) the things that please <02654> (8804) me, and take hold <02388> (8688) of my covenant <01285>;
Isaiah 64:7 And there is none that calleth <07121> (8802) upon thy name <08034>, that stirreth up <05782> (8711) himself to take hold <02388> (8687) of thee: for thou hast hid <05641> (8689) thy face <06440> from us, and hast consumed <04127> (8799) us, because <03027> of our iniquities <05771>.
02388 qzx chazaq khaw-zak’
a primitive root; TWOT-636; v
AV-strong 48, repair 47, hold 37, strengthened 28, strengthen 14, harden 13, prevail 10, encourage 9, take 9, courage 8, caught 5, stronger 5, hold 5, misc 52; 290
1) to strengthen, prevail, harden, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to be strong, grow strong
1a1a) to prevail, prevail upon
1a1b) to be firm, be caught fast, be secure
1a1c) to press, be urgent
1a1d) to grow stout, grow rigid, grow hard (bad sense)
1a1e) to be severe, be grievous
1a2) to strengthen
1b) (Piel)
1b1) to make strong
1b2) to restore to strength, give strength
1b3) to strengthen, sustain, encourage
1b4) to make strong, make bold, encourage
1b5) to make firm
1b6) to make rigid, make hard
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to make strong, strengthen
1c2) to make firm
1c3) to display strength
1c4) to make severe
1c5) to support
1c6) to repair
1c7) to prevail, prevail upon
1c8) to have or take or keep hold of, retain, hold up, sustain, support
1c9) to hold, contain
1d) (Hithpael)
1d1) to strengthen oneself
1d2) to put forth strength, use one’s strength
1d3) to withstand
1d4) to hold strongly with
02388. qzx chazaq khaw-zak’; a primitive root; to fasten upon; hence, to seize, be strong (figuratively, courageous, causatively strengthen, cure, help, repair, fortify), obstinate; to bind, restrain, conquer:—aid, amend, X calker, catch, cleave, confirm, be constant, constrain, continue, be of good (take) courage(-ous, —ly), encourage (self), be established, fasten, force, fortify, make hard, harden, help, (lay) hold (fast), lean, maintain, play the man, mend, become (wax) mighty, prevail, be recovered, repair, retain, seize, be (wax) sore, strengthen (self), be stout, be (make, shew, wax) strong(-er), be sure, take (hold), be urgent, behave self valiantly, withstand.
***************************
God cannot save man against his will from the power of Satan's artifices.
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Luke 13:
23 ¶ Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
***********************
Man must work with his human power, aided by the divine power of Christ, to resist and to conquer at any cost to himself.
Luke 14:
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
********************
In short, man must overcome as Christ overcame. And then, through the victory that it is his privilege to gain by the all-powerful name of Jesus, he may become an heir of God and joint-heir with Jesus Christ.
This could not be the case if Christ alone did all the overcoming.
Man must do his part; he must be victor on his own account, through the strength and grace that Christ gives him.
Man must be a co-worker with Christ in the labor of overcoming, and then he will be partaker with Christ in His glory. {SD 156.3}
1 Corinthians 9:
24 ¶ Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Psalms 20:2 Send thee help from the sanctuary, and strengthen thee out of Zion;
Isaiah 41:10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Active obedience of God's truths has a purpose within you, but obedience takes heart work with God and from God & human efforts directed to achive that obedience. Christ's presence motivates for obedience, but does not decide for you, strengthens you as you strive to obey, but does not move your body for you. Christ involves you in the process with everything you have, or your whole heart is not there. You would be doubleminded and excluded. Everything you have is still insufficent but essential, everything Christ has is fully sufficent and essential, but unused till you co-labor on His terms. For example I could not till up an overgrown wild field with my fingers, a tractor could do it without much effort upon it's capacities. A tractor will not cultivate the field without a driver operating it. Christ is like the tractor and the experienced farmer teaching the "greenhorn", but He will never do it for you, but always with you. The things you are not expected to do, those things He does for you.
************************
Relooking at the SOP quote in it's specifics I think Avalee's synopsis is accuratly worded. Jesus in His battle to overcome was never a passive recipient of the grace of God. "Use it or lose" "win or lose" it seems to apply here. The first battle is in the heart of man, the next battle is with his circumstances. Conquering both battles strengthens the action of each victory in the other battle, in the heart. The heart battle with victory strengthens the person for the expectation of victory in the circumstances battle, and victory over circumstances solidifies the victory in the heart.
[ May 29, 2002, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]
Posted By: zyph
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/30/02 12:08 AM
How did Jesus overcome? Scripture, please.
Posted By: Edward F Sutton
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/30/02 01:14 AM
From the portion that Jesus resisted the Devil with when He quoted it in the desert.
Deuteronomy 8:
1 ¶ All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.
2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
4 Thy raiment waxed not old upon thee, neither did thy foot swell, these forty years.
5 Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the LORD thy God chasteneth thee.
6 Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.
********************
In direct retaliation against the human desire not to starve to death, and the supernatural assault of Satan, Jesus uses the eword of the Spirit - Scripture - Scripture He was already putting into use in His own life.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
What did Jesus tell us about His overcoming and compare His overcoming with ours ?
John 6:
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Deuteronomy 8:
1 ¶ All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.
2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
4 Thy raiment waxed not old upon thee, neither did thy foot swell, these forty years.
5 Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the LORD thy God chasteneth thee.
6 Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.
********************
In direct retaliation against the human desire not to starve to death, and the supernatural assault of Satan, Jesus uses the eword of the Spirit - Scripture - Scripture He was already putting into use in His own life.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
What did Jesus tell us about His overcoming and compare His overcoming with ours ?
John 6:
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Posted By: zyph
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/30/02 01:15 AM
And in response to something directed at me before: (and thanks to Mike Lowe for posting this elsewhere)
Testimonies for the Church Volume Five, page 48, paragraphs 2 and 3
"Many of you are seeking honor of one another. But what is the honor or the approval of man to one who regards himself as a son of God, a joint heir with Christ? What are the pleasures of this world to him who is daily a sharer in the love of Christ which passes knowledge? What are the contempt and opposition of man to him whom God accepts through Jesus Christ? Selfishness can no more live in the heart that is exercising faith in Christ than light and darkness can exist together. Spiritual coldness, sloth, pride, and cowardice alike shrink from the presence of faith. Can those who are as closely united with Christ as the branch to the vine, talk of and to everyone but Jesus?
Testimonies for the Church Volume Five, page 48, paragraphs 2 and 3
"Many of you are seeking honor of one another. But what is the honor or the approval of man to one who regards himself as a son of God, a joint heir with Christ? What are the pleasures of this world to him who is daily a sharer in the love of Christ which passes knowledge? What are the contempt and opposition of man to him whom God accepts through Jesus Christ? Selfishness can no more live in the heart that is exercising faith in Christ than light and darkness can exist together. Spiritual coldness, sloth, pride, and cowardice alike shrink from the presence of faith. Can those who are as closely united with Christ as the branch to the vine, talk of and to everyone but Jesus?
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 05/31/02 06:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Edward F Sutton:
Relooking at the SOP quote in it's specifics I think Avalee's synopsis is accuratly worded.
![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon}
Will man take hold of divine power, and with determination and perseverance resist Satan, as Christ has given him example in His conflict with the foe in the wilderness of temptation? God cannot save man against his will from the power of Satan's artifices.
{SD 156.3}
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/01/02 04:16 PM
Firstly, in general I would comment on all of your letters that the Law (Torah) was given only to and for the Jews. Please study Romans 3:29,30 carefully and you will find out that the law is not for the Gentiles but for the Jews only for a designated time span (Luke 16:16; Galatians 3:19).
Thus, quoting all Old Testament verses regarding keeping the 10 Commandments has no meaning for the Gentiles and Christ believers after the cross. It was directed for the Jews or Israel only and not for them.
Secondly, the concept or doctrine that Christ Spirit empowers His believers who lives by the Spirit to be able to keep and obey the law is not according to the gospel of Christ. The gospel of Christ is that His believers must live by faith according to the Sprit (not to the flesh), just then they will have deeds that are in harmony with the principle of the Kingdom of God. But their deeds are not their obedience in keeping the law with the power of the Spirit, but because it is solely done by the Spirit’s who did “the willing and the doing of God.”
There is no cooperation between our desires (the flesh) for a righteous life according to the law with what the Spirit desires. What the Spirit desire is to make a change of our character from a love for self to love that seeks no self in order we might love our fellow men and fulfils the demands of the principle of heaven where we are going to go and to live till the new world and for eternity. To have love that seeks no self is our fitness for heaven.
Galatians 5:16-“This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and he shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.”
There is only 2 ways of life! Live by the Spirit or live by the flesh.
Live by the Spirit, you allows the Spirit to do “the willing and the doing of God” in you. Live by the flesh, you live according to what you desires and that includes your desire in keeping and obeying the law for a righteous life. You take away what is the responsibility of the Spirit, and there is no way for the Spirit to support you. The only desire that the Spirit might empower you if you desired to “deny the flesh”, as that is His goal through a change of character.
Our obedience means nothing to God as it is just “filthy rags” and can not fulfils the demands of His holy law, therefore all law keepers came under condemnation as the law could justify no one. For that reason Christ came and died to redeem men from the wages of sin and those who were under the law from the curse of the law. And when he justified all men with his redemption and saved them from death eternal, why should he instruct his believers (the righteous people) to keep again the law that will put them back under slavery of sin and condemnation? It doesn’t make sense and have no scriptural basic.
All of you said that you don’t keep the law to seek righteousness by the law, but don’t you try to think what God thinks of you in regards of your law keeping?
The law was given to justify those who keep and obey it perfectly with a reward of eternal life and to judge those who break it and condemns them with death eternal as the wages of their sins. Thus, all of you might say you don’t seek righteousness by the law, but that is not what the law and God think about you. The law doesn’t care you have faith or not because all what it wants from you is your perfect obedience that fulfils it demands in the spirit and in the letter for a justification that brought life. But God does care do you have faith or not in Christ, and since he has made an end to the functions of the law by Christ death on the cross, keeping it again just show your unfaithfulness.
What God asked from you is to keep the principle of the law in your heart that will make you able to “love one another.” And to have this “love” is only through faith and a life led by the Spirit, because it will be the responsibility of the Spirit to change your nature of self-love by doing “the willing and the doing of God” in you. This is what is called “faith”, trusting God that he is able to lead your life to all righteousness and holy life by a change of character even though there is no law.
The question is: have you enough faith in him? Or do you feel unsecured and might miss the mark if there is no law for you to check your performance? Did you forget that the standard of character is not the 10 Cs but love as the spirit of the law? It might be a standard in human eyes but not before God. There is no place in heaven for self-loving people because the standard of heaven character is based on God’s nature “love that seeks no self.”
And in human terms “love” was explained in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, so, even there is no law but we might know our self if we are not in accordance with the love principle as described in those verses.
There is no place for the law (Torah) in a faith relationship with God after the cross, it will only lead people away from Christ as the law was given to lead people to him, their Redeemer and Savior. Once in Him by faith, the schoolmaster is no longer the law but the Spirit, the law comes to an end in Christ (Christ is the end of the law) and in Him by faith our new schoolmaster “the Spirit” will lead us to heaven
In His love
James S.
Thus, quoting all Old Testament verses regarding keeping the 10 Commandments has no meaning for the Gentiles and Christ believers after the cross. It was directed for the Jews or Israel only and not for them.
Secondly, the concept or doctrine that Christ Spirit empowers His believers who lives by the Spirit to be able to keep and obey the law is not according to the gospel of Christ. The gospel of Christ is that His believers must live by faith according to the Sprit (not to the flesh), just then they will have deeds that are in harmony with the principle of the Kingdom of God. But their deeds are not their obedience in keeping the law with the power of the Spirit, but because it is solely done by the Spirit’s who did “the willing and the doing of God.”
There is no cooperation between our desires (the flesh) for a righteous life according to the law with what the Spirit desires. What the Spirit desire is to make a change of our character from a love for self to love that seeks no self in order we might love our fellow men and fulfils the demands of the principle of heaven where we are going to go and to live till the new world and for eternity. To have love that seeks no self is our fitness for heaven.
Galatians 5:16-“This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and he shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.”
There is only 2 ways of life! Live by the Spirit or live by the flesh.
Live by the Spirit, you allows the Spirit to do “the willing and the doing of God” in you. Live by the flesh, you live according to what you desires and that includes your desire in keeping and obeying the law for a righteous life. You take away what is the responsibility of the Spirit, and there is no way for the Spirit to support you. The only desire that the Spirit might empower you if you desired to “deny the flesh”, as that is His goal through a change of character.
Our obedience means nothing to God as it is just “filthy rags” and can not fulfils the demands of His holy law, therefore all law keepers came under condemnation as the law could justify no one. For that reason Christ came and died to redeem men from the wages of sin and those who were under the law from the curse of the law. And when he justified all men with his redemption and saved them from death eternal, why should he instruct his believers (the righteous people) to keep again the law that will put them back under slavery of sin and condemnation? It doesn’t make sense and have no scriptural basic.
All of you said that you don’t keep the law to seek righteousness by the law, but don’t you try to think what God thinks of you in regards of your law keeping?
The law was given to justify those who keep and obey it perfectly with a reward of eternal life and to judge those who break it and condemns them with death eternal as the wages of their sins. Thus, all of you might say you don’t seek righteousness by the law, but that is not what the law and God think about you. The law doesn’t care you have faith or not because all what it wants from you is your perfect obedience that fulfils it demands in the spirit and in the letter for a justification that brought life. But God does care do you have faith or not in Christ, and since he has made an end to the functions of the law by Christ death on the cross, keeping it again just show your unfaithfulness.
What God asked from you is to keep the principle of the law in your heart that will make you able to “love one another.” And to have this “love” is only through faith and a life led by the Spirit, because it will be the responsibility of the Spirit to change your nature of self-love by doing “the willing and the doing of God” in you. This is what is called “faith”, trusting God that he is able to lead your life to all righteousness and holy life by a change of character even though there is no law.
The question is: have you enough faith in him? Or do you feel unsecured and might miss the mark if there is no law for you to check your performance? Did you forget that the standard of character is not the 10 Cs but love as the spirit of the law? It might be a standard in human eyes but not before God. There is no place in heaven for self-loving people because the standard of heaven character is based on God’s nature “love that seeks no self.”
And in human terms “love” was explained in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, so, even there is no law but we might know our self if we are not in accordance with the love principle as described in those verses.
There is no place for the law (Torah) in a faith relationship with God after the cross, it will only lead people away from Christ as the law was given to lead people to him, their Redeemer and Savior. Once in Him by faith, the schoolmaster is no longer the law but the Spirit, the law comes to an end in Christ (Christ is the end of the law) and in Him by faith our new schoolmaster “the Spirit” will lead us to heaven
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/02/02 12:33 AM
Without the law, there would be no sin.....for "sin is the transgression of the law".
all may inherit eternity for there will be no seperation of good and evil because if there is no law we don't know what evil is. Why did Jesus have to die to save sinners, if there is no law, there is no sinners.
When jusdgement takes place in the "Most Holy Place" why is the Ark containing the ten commandments there?
qoute:
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald----DT- 08-28-94
The Obedient Approved of God
"To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Paul asks, "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" and answers, "God forbid." Again he asks, "Do
we then make void the law through faith?" and answers, "God forbid; yea, we establish the law." God's will is expressed in his holy law, and Jesus says, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom
of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." The law of God is the standard by which character is to be measured, and he whose life is in harmony with that law is worthy to be trusted, but of what value is the testimony of a man whose life and teaching contradict the law of Jehovah? He then measures himself by his own finite standard, and may claim
for himself as much as does the pope of Rome; but in the light of the detector of sin, his character may be wholly wanting. He may claim great spiritual riches, and think that he is in need of nothing, and may boast of the grace of Christ, but at the same time may have turned that precious grace into lasciviousness. This spurious character of religion is on the increase, and many whose hearts are carnal prate of the grace of Christ, while at the same time they openly blaspheme the name of the God of heaven by casting
contempt upon the law of God, which rebukes their inconsistent course and detects their unchristlike character."
end quote
James, Are you a Seventh -Day- Adventist? Just curious because of your teachings, you must be of another faith.
all may inherit eternity for there will be no seperation of good and evil because if there is no law we don't know what evil is. Why did Jesus have to die to save sinners, if there is no law, there is no sinners.
When jusdgement takes place in the "Most Holy Place" why is the Ark containing the ten commandments there?
qoute:
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald----DT- 08-28-94
The Obedient Approved of God
"To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Paul asks, "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" and answers, "God forbid." Again he asks, "Do
we then make void the law through faith?" and answers, "God forbid; yea, we establish the law." God's will is expressed in his holy law, and Jesus says, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom
of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." The law of God is the standard by which character is to be measured, and he whose life is in harmony with that law is worthy to be trusted, but of what value is the testimony of a man whose life and teaching contradict the law of Jehovah? He then measures himself by his own finite standard, and may claim
for himself as much as does the pope of Rome; but in the light of the detector of sin, his character may be wholly wanting. He may claim great spiritual riches, and think that he is in need of nothing, and may boast of the grace of Christ, but at the same time may have turned that precious grace into lasciviousness. This spurious character of religion is on the increase, and many whose hearts are carnal prate of the grace of Christ, while at the same time they openly blaspheme the name of the God of heaven by casting
contempt upon the law of God, which rebukes their inconsistent course and detects their unchristlike character."
end quote
James, Are you a Seventh -Day- Adventist? Just curious because of your teachings, you must be of another faith.
Posted By: zyph
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/02/02 01:10 AM
1 John 3:4 says that those who commit sin ALSO transgress the law. That "also" means something.
James, when the word "law" is used in the New Testament, you have to be aware of the context. The only law that was done away with was the ritual law that pointed forward to Jesus' appearance on earth. It obviously became redundant once the real Sacrifice had appeared. That was the law that was nailed to the cross. The other things have no reason to go. For example, do you think it's proper for someone taking the name of Jesus to commit adultery now? Paul condemned that idea.
The law was never the means by which we gained salvation - Old or New Testament. It was always by faith - see Hebrews 11 - and in several places in the Old Testament, God talks about writing the law on our hearts. Things like Sabbath keeping existed before the ten commandments were given, so there was a general knowledge of God's wishes without the letter of the law before the Jews existed.
I agree that some posts here and elsewhere on this board make salvation partly earned. Away with that idea. It's a GIFT, and that's that. But obedience is also a gift - ask the recovering alcoholic if it isn't - and we need to honour God by seeking to do His will in all things, to bring glory to His name - see the 23rd Psalm. People who focus on the works make them part of the parcel in a way that our filthy rags somehow contributes to our salvation. It doesn't, and the reason we'll throw our crowns at Jesus' feet in the New Earth is because we had zero to do with it - we were passive recipients of justification, sanctification, and glorification. The way we co-operate and overcome is the way Jesus did - in total dependence on His Father. He didn't even make plans for the day. It's all there in scripture.
So I think you're absolutely right in much of what you say, but I also agree that the symptom of a tight relationship with Jesus is obedience. He likes to polish us and have us represent His perfect character.
James, when the word "law" is used in the New Testament, you have to be aware of the context. The only law that was done away with was the ritual law that pointed forward to Jesus' appearance on earth. It obviously became redundant once the real Sacrifice had appeared. That was the law that was nailed to the cross. The other things have no reason to go. For example, do you think it's proper for someone taking the name of Jesus to commit adultery now? Paul condemned that idea.
The law was never the means by which we gained salvation - Old or New Testament. It was always by faith - see Hebrews 11 - and in several places in the Old Testament, God talks about writing the law on our hearts. Things like Sabbath keeping existed before the ten commandments were given, so there was a general knowledge of God's wishes without the letter of the law before the Jews existed.
I agree that some posts here and elsewhere on this board make salvation partly earned. Away with that idea. It's a GIFT, and that's that. But obedience is also a gift - ask the recovering alcoholic if it isn't - and we need to honour God by seeking to do His will in all things, to bring glory to His name - see the 23rd Psalm. People who focus on the works make them part of the parcel in a way that our filthy rags somehow contributes to our salvation. It doesn't, and the reason we'll throw our crowns at Jesus' feet in the New Earth is because we had zero to do with it - we were passive recipients of justification, sanctification, and glorification. The way we co-operate and overcome is the way Jesus did - in total dependence on His Father. He didn't even make plans for the day. It's all there in scripture.
So I think you're absolutely right in much of what you say, but I also agree that the symptom of a tight relationship with Jesus is obedience. He likes to polish us and have us represent His perfect character.
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/02/02 05:27 PM
Is faith passive? Is Grace passive?
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Strong’s =”works” [pertaining to the above scripture]
2041 ergon {er'-gon}
from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work); TDNT - 2:635,251; n n
AV - work 152, deed 22, doing 1, labour 1; 176
1) business, employment, that which any one is occupied 1a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking 2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind 3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work”.
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, [ACTIVE] and not hearers only, PASSIVE] deceiving your own selves.
What are we commanded to do;
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek , and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
We can do nothing Spiritual of our selves, only produce filthy rags but …..
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
The fruit of faith is “works”, not to gain heaven but because of deep love for Jesus and their fellow man.
Quote:
The Signs of the Times---- 06-28-05---The Results of Repentance
“The great Teacher, in His lessons, presents the life-diffusing power of His grace, declaring that through His grace men and women may live the new life of holiness and purity. He who lives this life works out the principles of the kingdom of heaven. Taught of God, he leads others in straight paths. The working of the Holy Spirit in his life shows that he is a partaker of the divine nature. Every soul thus worked receives so abundant a supply of the rich grace of heaven that, beholding his good works, unbelievers acknowledge that he is controlled and sustained by divine power, and give to God the glory.”
End Quote
Jesus said:
John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. [see Strong’s def. above pertaining to this verse]
Please read Hebrews 11……we find that by faith and the power of His Grace…..Man DID. …..[active]
Welfare Ministry---- The Present and Eternal Rewards-----PG- 315
The Two Oars--Faith and Works.
“If we are faithful in doing our part, in cooperating with Him, [316] God will work through us [to do] the good pleasure of His will. But He cannot work through us if we make no effort. If we gain eternal life, we must work, and work earnestly. . . . Let us not be deceived by the oft-repeated assertion, "All you have to do is to believe." Faith and works are two oars which we must use equally if we [would] press our way up the stream against the current of Unbelief. "Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." The Christian is a man of thought and practice. His faith fixes its roots firmly in Christ. By faith and good works he keeps his spirituality strong and healthy, and his spiritual strength increases as he strives to work the works of God.” - Review and Herald, June 11, 1901.
Patriarchs and Prophets---- The Test of Faith----PG- 153
"Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: an he was called the friend of God." James 2:23. And Paul says, "They which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Galatians 3:7. But Abraham's faith was made manifest by his works. "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect.?" James 2:21, 22. There are many who fail to understand the relation of faith and works. They say, "Only believe in Christ, and you are safe. You have nothing to do with keeping [154] the law." But genuine faith will be manifest in obedience. Said Christ to the unbelieving Jews, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." John 8:39. And concerning the father of the faithful the Lord declares, "Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5. Says the apostle James, "Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17. And John, who dwells so fully upon love, tells us, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." 1 John 5:3.
"I CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST WHO STRENGTHENS ME" Praise God.
Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
There are 2 paths that lead to eternity...the broad and passive, that leads to distructionor the narrow, Active way that follows Jesus.
[ June 02, 2002, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Charlene Van Hook ]
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Strong’s =”works” [pertaining to the above scripture]
2041 ergon {er'-gon}
from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work); TDNT - 2:635,251; n n
AV - work 152, deed 22, doing 1, labour 1; 176
1) business, employment, that which any one is occupied 1a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking 2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind 3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work”.
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, [ACTIVE] and not hearers only, PASSIVE] deceiving your own selves.
What are we commanded to do;
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek , and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
We can do nothing Spiritual of our selves, only produce filthy rags but …..
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
The fruit of faith is “works”, not to gain heaven but because of deep love for Jesus and their fellow man.
Quote:
The Signs of the Times---- 06-28-05---The Results of Repentance
“The great Teacher, in His lessons, presents the life-diffusing power of His grace, declaring that through His grace men and women may live the new life of holiness and purity. He who lives this life works out the principles of the kingdom of heaven. Taught of God, he leads others in straight paths. The working of the Holy Spirit in his life shows that he is a partaker of the divine nature. Every soul thus worked receives so abundant a supply of the rich grace of heaven that, beholding his good works, unbelievers acknowledge that he is controlled and sustained by divine power, and give to God the glory.”
End Quote
Jesus said:
John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. [see Strong’s def. above pertaining to this verse]
Please read Hebrews 11……we find that by faith and the power of His Grace…..Man DID. …..[active]
Welfare Ministry---- The Present and Eternal Rewards-----PG- 315
The Two Oars--Faith and Works.
“If we are faithful in doing our part, in cooperating with Him, [316] God will work through us [to do] the good pleasure of His will. But He cannot work through us if we make no effort. If we gain eternal life, we must work, and work earnestly. . . . Let us not be deceived by the oft-repeated assertion, "All you have to do is to believe." Faith and works are two oars which we must use equally if we [would] press our way up the stream against the current of Unbelief. "Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." The Christian is a man of thought and practice. His faith fixes its roots firmly in Christ. By faith and good works he keeps his spirituality strong and healthy, and his spiritual strength increases as he strives to work the works of God.” - Review and Herald, June 11, 1901.
Patriarchs and Prophets---- The Test of Faith----PG- 153
"Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: an he was called the friend of God." James 2:23. And Paul says, "They which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Galatians 3:7. But Abraham's faith was made manifest by his works. "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect.?" James 2:21, 22. There are many who fail to understand the relation of faith and works. They say, "Only believe in Christ, and you are safe. You have nothing to do with keeping [154] the law." But genuine faith will be manifest in obedience. Said Christ to the unbelieving Jews, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." John 8:39. And concerning the father of the faithful the Lord declares, "Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5. Says the apostle James, "Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17. And John, who dwells so fully upon love, tells us, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." 1 John 5:3.
"I CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST WHO STRENGTHENS ME" Praise God.
Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
There are 2 paths that lead to eternity...the broad and passive, that leads to distructionor the narrow, Active way that follows Jesus.
[ June 02, 2002, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Charlene Van Hook ]
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/02/02 11:18 PM
quote:
The human agent who yields obedience to God, Who becomes a partaker of the divine nature,
finds pleasure in keeping the commandments of God, for he is one with God; he holds as vital a relation with God as does the Son to the Father.
From That I May Know Him - Page 159
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/04/02 03:50 PM
What does these verses means to you (in KJV)?
I divide my thoughts regarding the law as follows:
1. The law was in effect for a time period only.
- Luke 16:16 – “The law and the prophets were until John; since that time the Kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
- Galatians 3:22-26 –“But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”
(Firstly, the law was given to give life for those who keep and obey the law perfectly in order he might be justified by the law and rewarded with eternal life).
- Leviticus 18:4,5 –“ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein; I am the Lord your God. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments; which if a man do, he shall live in them; I am the Lord.”
- Romans 10:5 –“For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, that the man which doeth those things shall live by them.”
In His love
James S.
I divide my thoughts regarding the law as follows:
1. The law was in effect for a time period only.
- Luke 16:16 – “The law and the prophets were until John; since that time the Kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
- Galatians 3:22-26 –“But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”
(Firstly, the law was given to give life for those who keep and obey the law perfectly in order he might be justified by the law and rewarded with eternal life).
- Leviticus 18:4,5 –“ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein; I am the Lord your God. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments; which if a man do, he shall live in them; I am the Lord.”
- Romans 10:5 –“For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, that the man which doeth those things shall live by them.”
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/04/02 03:51 PM
2. The law also served to expose sin, judgment and condemnation. Without a written law, there is no standard for judgment and condemnation against transgression inspite the fact that death already reigned from Adam till Moses. If the law was not given, men might protest God to be unjust and unfair and not the God he claimed to be as a loving God. Death reigned because of the transgression of one single man but the whole world must suffer and die for it.
- Galatians 3:19 – “Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;”
- Romans 4:15 – “Because the law worketh wrath; for where no law is, there is no transgression.”
- Romans 5:13 –“For until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”
- Romans 5:20 –“Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.” (NIV – The law was added so that the trespasses might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more).
- Romans 3:20 –“Therefore by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
- Romans 7:7 –“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law; for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
In His love
James S.
- Galatians 3:19 – “Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;”
- Romans 4:15 – “Because the law worketh wrath; for where no law is, there is no transgression.”
- Romans 5:13 –“For until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”
- Romans 5:20 –“Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.” (NIV – The law was added so that the trespasses might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more).
- Romans 3:20 –“Therefore by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
- Romans 7:7 –“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law; for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/04/02 03:53 PM
3. Israel was chosen to proclaim God’s holy law and his great love to the world, they were example for what will happen to mankind if God’s law ruled the world.
- Romans 3:19,20,23 –“Now we know that what things so ever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.”
- Romans 7:9-11 –“For I was alive without the law once; but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.” (NIV-For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death).
-Romans 7:5 –“For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.” (NIV-For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death).
- 2 Corinthians 3:6-11 –“Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious………..how shall the ministration of the Spirit be rather glorious. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.”
- 1 Corinthians 15:56 – “The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.” (NIV-The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law).
In His love
James S.
- Romans 3:19,20,23 –“Now we know that what things so ever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.”
- Romans 7:9-11 –“For I was alive without the law once; but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.” (NIV-For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death).
-Romans 7:5 –“For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.” (NIV-For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death).
- 2 Corinthians 3:6-11 –“Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious………..how shall the ministration of the Spirit be rather glorious. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.”
- 1 Corinthians 15:56 – “The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.” (NIV-The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law).
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/04/02 03:55 PM
4. That is the reason Christ must came and die to redeem men as no man could earn life through justification by the law, on the contrary all what the law could do is to condemn all law keeper with death as all were find guilty before the law. Why? Because through their obedience their sinful nature was exposed, the sin in the flesh, the self-love nature inherited from Adam since the fall that is against the demands of the principle of the law “love that seeks no self”. Obeying the law empowers sin of self-love to work in our bodies and bore deeds of the flesh. With his death on the cross, Christ redeemed and released all men from the wages of sin and through his Spirit that works in a believer heart who lives by the Spirit, he released men from the power of sin through a change of character. It is no longer the law as a standard of living but “love that seeks no self” is the standard of character. And it is also no longer Christ’s life as an example of obedience but his life is an example for “love to our fellow men”, that he has proven by giving his life so that we might live. The law has lost it functions and it meanings in Christ for those who believe and would be no longer exist. Christ has nailed the law to his cross and abolished it in his flesh, so that, his believers might live and depends only to the Spirit through faith.
- Romans 10:4 –“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”
- Galatians 3:24,25 –“ Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”
- Romans 7:6 –“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in the newness of spirit; and not in the oldness of the letter.”
- Galatians 4:21-31 –“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? (If under the law means only under condemnation of the law, who on earth would like to be under condemnation? But as according to Romans 3:19 & Romans 2:12,13, under the law means under it authority and obligation to keep and obey the law, under it judgment and condemnation). For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a free woman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory; for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son; for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”
- Romans 7:4 –“Wherefore, my brethern, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
- Ephesians 2:14-16 –“For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.” (The wall of partition between the Jews and the gentiles was the Jew’s customs, the law, for the Gentiles have not the law. By abolishing the law in his body, Christ has made all men equal, all depends on him for righteousness as a free gift obtained through faith).
- Colossians 2:13,14 –“And you, being dead in your sins and uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.” (Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances could not be the record book of sins, because sins were not contrary to us and against us, it is our nature. What was blotted out is the law, as the law is spiritual, holy, good and just but we were flesh, sinful and could only do evil. Our nature is not subject to the law of God – Romans 8:7; our sinful nature is against and in contrary with the intent of the law “love that seeks no self”, which the Spirit desired to create it in us – Galatians 5:16,17).
- Hebrew 10:1 –“For the law having a shadow of good things to come (righteousness by faith in Christ), and not the very image of the things (righteousness that brought life), can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect (righteousness by the law).”
- Hebrew 7:18,19 –“For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw night unto God.” (The law could only condemn those who keep it, but in Christ by faith we had been reconciled to God through his blood).
- Hebrew 8:7,13 – For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. In that he hath said, a new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.” (The ministry to the law that was intended to bring life (Romans 7:10) in fact could only brought condemnation and death. A new covenant based on grace, the ministry of the Spirit was given, to bring righteousness and life for those who believe. The old passed away, and the new era begun – 2 Corinthians 3:6-11).
In His love
James S.
- Romans 10:4 –“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”
- Galatians 3:24,25 –“ Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”
- Romans 7:6 –“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in the newness of spirit; and not in the oldness of the letter.”
- Galatians 4:21-31 –“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? (If under the law means only under condemnation of the law, who on earth would like to be under condemnation? But as according to Romans 3:19 & Romans 2:12,13, under the law means under it authority and obligation to keep and obey the law, under it judgment and condemnation). For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a free woman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory; for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son; for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”
- Romans 7:4 –“Wherefore, my brethern, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
- Ephesians 2:14-16 –“For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.” (The wall of partition between the Jews and the gentiles was the Jew’s customs, the law, for the Gentiles have not the law. By abolishing the law in his body, Christ has made all men equal, all depends on him for righteousness as a free gift obtained through faith).
- Colossians 2:13,14 –“And you, being dead in your sins and uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.” (Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances could not be the record book of sins, because sins were not contrary to us and against us, it is our nature. What was blotted out is the law, as the law is spiritual, holy, good and just but we were flesh, sinful and could only do evil. Our nature is not subject to the law of God – Romans 8:7; our sinful nature is against and in contrary with the intent of the law “love that seeks no self”, which the Spirit desired to create it in us – Galatians 5:16,17).
- Hebrew 10:1 –“For the law having a shadow of good things to come (righteousness by faith in Christ), and not the very image of the things (righteousness that brought life), can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect (righteousness by the law).”
- Hebrew 7:18,19 –“For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw night unto God.” (The law could only condemn those who keep it, but in Christ by faith we had been reconciled to God through his blood).
- Hebrew 8:7,13 – For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. In that he hath said, a new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.” (The ministry to the law that was intended to bring life (Romans 7:10) in fact could only brought condemnation and death. A new covenant based on grace, the ministry of the Spirit was given, to bring righteousness and life for those who believe. The old passed away, and the new era begun – 2 Corinthians 3:6-11).
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/04/02 03:56 PM
I have shared and explained my thoughts regarding the law of the 10 Commandments. The Torah that includes the Ten Cs was over and exists no more as an obligation to keep and obey and a standard for living righteously. Saying that the sacrificial law that was nailed but the Ten Cs still exist and binds all believers has no Scriptural basic. It was the idea of men, to lead people away from Christ. Remember that the law WAS a schoolmaster to lead people to Christ, thus, once in Christ by faith, the law ends. Still keeping the law would only shows that we still seeks Christ and were not in him yet.
But once we were in him by faith, the Spirit take over to guide us and lead us to heaven by a change of character, to impart Christ righteousness, to create “love that seeks no self” in our heart that we may love one another. The law is no longer a standard of Christian’s living, but Christ’s life is the standard, not his obedience but his love for the world that he had shown to the utmost by giving his life for us so that we may live.
All what we read in the book of John regarding to keep and obey the law is not the law of the Ten Cs but “love one another”, or the principle of the law that we must have in our heart if we believe in Christ and would give our self to be lead by His Spirit. In fact, it was a command to live by faith, since those who believes would be sealed by the Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) and will have the fruit of the Spirit that is love.
All quotes of verses from the OT regarding law keeping was directed for Israel or the Jews only, as the law was designated for them and not for the Gentiles. These commands were not directed to us the Gentiles, but to them only.
Since Christ has died and justified all men once and for all, the law has lost it purpose and comes to an end. What left now is men obligation to live for God because God had given his only begotten Son to save them. It is now just between: to live for self or to live for God, to serve the flesh or to serve God. And to live for God we need faith, since God that will work in us ‘to will and to do according to his good purpose.” Nothing else is asked from us, if we want to live for God that means we would deny the flesh. And for this the Spirit empowers us, because it is the goal of the Spirit to release us from the power of sin where all the desire of the flesh rooted.
Erecting what was destroyed on the cross, shows only our unfaithfulness and made us again a sinner (Galatians 2:18), the law will expose our sin again and put us to death in spite Christ had saved us and made us free from the wages of sin and the power of sin. This is what was said in the Scripture: “The law is not of faith” and “whatever is not of faith is sin” (Galatians 3:12; Romans 14:23). Keeping the law has no place in a faith relationship with God, but if you still want to keep it, then all your deeds will comes from the sin of self-love, your sinful nature. Without fruit of the Spirit no one is fit for heaven.
And believing that the Spirit empowers a law keeper to make him able to obey the law has no Scriptural basic. As it was said above, the law is not of faith, there is no place for the law in a faith relationship with God, so, how could the Spirit empowers a believer to obey the law” After all, you have the Spirit because of your faith in Christ.
“Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh” (Galatians 5:16)
“But if ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law” (Galatians 5:18).
If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the obligation to keep and obey the law and the law has no authority to judge you and condemns you. Shall you then miss the mark and do evil if there is no law as a standard for righteousness? The Scripture said:” Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” Is that not enough for you? Have you still doubt? Do you believe God or do you believe what men said?
In His love
James S.
But once we were in him by faith, the Spirit take over to guide us and lead us to heaven by a change of character, to impart Christ righteousness, to create “love that seeks no self” in our heart that we may love one another. The law is no longer a standard of Christian’s living, but Christ’s life is the standard, not his obedience but his love for the world that he had shown to the utmost by giving his life for us so that we may live.
All what we read in the book of John regarding to keep and obey the law is not the law of the Ten Cs but “love one another”, or the principle of the law that we must have in our heart if we believe in Christ and would give our self to be lead by His Spirit. In fact, it was a command to live by faith, since those who believes would be sealed by the Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) and will have the fruit of the Spirit that is love.
All quotes of verses from the OT regarding law keeping was directed for Israel or the Jews only, as the law was designated for them and not for the Gentiles. These commands were not directed to us the Gentiles, but to them only.
Since Christ has died and justified all men once and for all, the law has lost it purpose and comes to an end. What left now is men obligation to live for God because God had given his only begotten Son to save them. It is now just between: to live for self or to live for God, to serve the flesh or to serve God. And to live for God we need faith, since God that will work in us ‘to will and to do according to his good purpose.” Nothing else is asked from us, if we want to live for God that means we would deny the flesh. And for this the Spirit empowers us, because it is the goal of the Spirit to release us from the power of sin where all the desire of the flesh rooted.
Erecting what was destroyed on the cross, shows only our unfaithfulness and made us again a sinner (Galatians 2:18), the law will expose our sin again and put us to death in spite Christ had saved us and made us free from the wages of sin and the power of sin. This is what was said in the Scripture: “The law is not of faith” and “whatever is not of faith is sin” (Galatians 3:12; Romans 14:23). Keeping the law has no place in a faith relationship with God, but if you still want to keep it, then all your deeds will comes from the sin of self-love, your sinful nature. Without fruit of the Spirit no one is fit for heaven.
And believing that the Spirit empowers a law keeper to make him able to obey the law has no Scriptural basic. As it was said above, the law is not of faith, there is no place for the law in a faith relationship with God, so, how could the Spirit empowers a believer to obey the law” After all, you have the Spirit because of your faith in Christ.
“Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh” (Galatians 5:16)
“But if ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law” (Galatians 5:18).
If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the obligation to keep and obey the law and the law has no authority to judge you and condemns you. Shall you then miss the mark and do evil if there is no law as a standard for righteousness? The Scripture said:” Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” Is that not enough for you? Have you still doubt? Do you believe God or do you believe what men said?
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/05/02 06:15 AM
I have also decided to move this topic from the Bible Study forum for continued discussion here.
[ June 04, 2002, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
[ June 04, 2002, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/04/02 09:57 PM
James,
I would like for you to answer my question i asked above.....Are you a Seventh -Day- Adventist or of another faith. I should think this would not offend you to let me know.....you need not explain, just a yes or no will do. thanks
I would like for you to answer my question i asked above.....Are you a Seventh -Day- Adventist or of another faith. I should think this would not offend you to let me know.....you need not explain, just a yes or no will do. thanks
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/05/02 01:19 AM
James i see the answer to my question in another thread. Thank you for making it clear.
I would ask you to please, re-read the posts on this thread...there is so much evidence presented here for you to examine. Ask for the Holy Spirit to guide you in to all truth and take the time to listen and examine/study what all of us have posted to you. Pray for understanding God's truth. If you are sincerely searching, lay aside your counter gospel for a time of seeking so you may find. I will be praying for you. Approach each scripture with an open mind so it may be led by the Spirit.
I would ask you to please, re-read the posts on this thread...there is so much evidence presented here for you to examine. Ask for the Holy Spirit to guide you in to all truth and take the time to listen and examine/study what all of us have posted to you. Pray for understanding God's truth. If you are sincerely searching, lay aside your counter gospel for a time of seeking so you may find. I will be praying for you. Approach each scripture with an open mind so it may be led by the Spirit.
Posted By: John H.
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/05/02 02:31 AM
James, here's a thought for you, a paraphrase of an Ellen White statement:
If anything in God's ten-commandment law could be changed, or done away with, then Christ need not have died on Calvary's cross.
Did you get that? In saying that the obligations of the Ten Commandments have vanished, you're in effect saying that Jesus' sacrifice was useless and unnecessary. The fact that His death was the only thing that could satisfy the demands of that broken Law is the greatest evidence of its unchanging, eternal nature. If the obligations could ever be done away with or changed, then the penalty likewise could have been done away with or changed, so that Christ need not have died.
But the fact that the penalty could not be altered shows that the Law itself likewise can never be altered. It is eternal and unchangeable, as is God's character, of which the Law is a reflection, a transcript.
Showing that the Law is a transcript of God's character:
God is good -- Luke 18:19
the Law is good -- 1 Timothy 1:8, Romans 7:12,16
God is holy -- Isaiah 5:16
the Law is holy -- Romans 7:12
God is perfect -- Matthew 5:18
the Law is perfect -- Psalm 19:7
God is pure -- 1 John 3:3
the Law is pure -- Psalm 19:8
God is just -- Deuteronomy 32:4
the Law is just -- Romans 7:12
God is true -- John 3:33
the Law is true -- Psalm 19:9, 119:142,151
God is spiritual -- 1 Corinthians 10:4
the Law is spiritual -- Romans 7:14
God is righteousness -- Jeremiah 23:6
the Law is righteousness -- Psalm 119:172
God is faithful -- 1 Corinthians 1:9
the Law is faithful -- Psalm 119:86
God is great -- Job 36:26, Psalm 48:1
the Law is great -- Hosea 8:12
Since the Ten Commandments are a transcript of God's character, they can no more be changed or done away with than God Himself can be changed or done away with.
"For I am the Lord, I change not." Malachi 3:6.
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:18,19.
***
For what it's worth....any who say that the obligations of God's Law can be changed, are doing exactly the same thing as the "little horn" antichrist power of Daniel 7:25 -- "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws." That's not very good company to be keeping!
[ June 04, 2002, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: John ]
If anything in God's ten-commandment law could be changed, or done away with, then Christ need not have died on Calvary's cross.
Did you get that? In saying that the obligations of the Ten Commandments have vanished, you're in effect saying that Jesus' sacrifice was useless and unnecessary. The fact that His death was the only thing that could satisfy the demands of that broken Law is the greatest evidence of its unchanging, eternal nature. If the obligations could ever be done away with or changed, then the penalty likewise could have been done away with or changed, so that Christ need not have died.
But the fact that the penalty could not be altered shows that the Law itself likewise can never be altered. It is eternal and unchangeable, as is God's character, of which the Law is a reflection, a transcript.
Showing that the Law is a transcript of God's character:
God is good -- Luke 18:19
the Law is good -- 1 Timothy 1:8, Romans 7:12,16
God is holy -- Isaiah 5:16
the Law is holy -- Romans 7:12
God is perfect -- Matthew 5:18
the Law is perfect -- Psalm 19:7
God is pure -- 1 John 3:3
the Law is pure -- Psalm 19:8
God is just -- Deuteronomy 32:4
the Law is just -- Romans 7:12
God is true -- John 3:33
the Law is true -- Psalm 19:9, 119:142,151
God is spiritual -- 1 Corinthians 10:4
the Law is spiritual -- Romans 7:14
God is righteousness -- Jeremiah 23:6
the Law is righteousness -- Psalm 119:172
God is faithful -- 1 Corinthians 1:9
the Law is faithful -- Psalm 119:86
God is great -- Job 36:26, Psalm 48:1
the Law is great -- Hosea 8:12
Since the Ten Commandments are a transcript of God's character, they can no more be changed or done away with than God Himself can be changed or done away with.
"For I am the Lord, I change not." Malachi 3:6.
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:18,19.
***
For what it's worth....any who say that the obligations of God's Law can be changed, are doing exactly the same thing as the "little horn" antichrist power of Daniel 7:25 -- "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws." That's not very good company to be keeping!
[ June 04, 2002, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: John ]
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/05/02 03:45 PM
Quote.
James, here's a thought for you, a paraphrase of an Ellen White statement:
If anything in God's ten-commandment law could be changed, or done away with, then Christ need not have died on Calvary's cross.
Did you get that? In saying that the obligations of the Ten Commandments have vanished, you're in effect saying that Jesus' sacrifice was useless and unnecessary. The fact that His death was the only thing that could satisfy the demands of that broken Law is the greatest evidence of its unchanging, eternal nature. If the obligations could ever be done away with or changed, then the penalty likewise could have been done away with or changed, so that Christ need not have died.
But the fact that the penalty could not be altered shows that the Law itself likewise can never be altered. It is eternal and unchangeable, as is God's character, of which the Law is a reflection, a transcript.
Unquote.
John.
You forget one important thing.
Jesus must come and die to redeem mankind from the sin they never committed, the original sin. If Adam never sinned, mankind will live happily in Eden till now and forever and didn’t need the Ten Commandments. But Adam has sinned, and the wages of sin is death. Remember that even there is no law (before the law was given to Moses), death already reigned in the world (Romans 5:13), because we are his descendants and through Adam, all of us must also die.
For this reason Christ must come and die to redeem us if he is a just, fair and loving God as he claimed he is.
Study this verse and think hard “- Romans 5:13 –“For until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”%0
James, here's a thought for you, a paraphrase of an Ellen White statement:
If anything in God's ten-commandment law could be changed, or done away with, then Christ need not have died on Calvary's cross.
Did you get that? In saying that the obligations of the Ten Commandments have vanished, you're in effect saying that Jesus' sacrifice was useless and unnecessary. The fact that His death was the only thing that could satisfy the demands of that broken Law is the greatest evidence of its unchanging, eternal nature. If the obligations could ever be done away with or changed, then the penalty likewise could have been done away with or changed, so that Christ need not have died.
But the fact that the penalty could not be altered shows that the Law itself likewise can never be altered. It is eternal and unchangeable, as is God's character, of which the Law is a reflection, a transcript.
Unquote.
John.
You forget one important thing.
Jesus must come and die to redeem mankind from the sin they never committed, the original sin. If Adam never sinned, mankind will live happily in Eden till now and forever and didn’t need the Ten Commandments. But Adam has sinned, and the wages of sin is death. Remember that even there is no law (before the law was given to Moses), death already reigned in the world (Romans 5:13), because we are his descendants and through Adam, all of us must also die.
For this reason Christ must come and die to redeem us if he is a just, fair and loving God as he claimed he is.
Study this verse and think hard “- Romans 5:13 –“For until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”%0
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/05/02 03:47 PM
Quote.
James, here's a thought for you, a paraphrase of an Ellen White statement:
If anything in God's ten-commandment law could be changed, or done away with, then Christ need not have died on Calvary's cross.
Did you get that? In saying that the obligations of the Ten Commandments have vanished, you're in effect saying that Jesus' sacrifice was useless and unnecessary. The fact that His death was the only thing that could satisfy the demands of that broken Law is the greatest evidence of its unchanging, eternal nature. If the obligations could ever be done away with or changed, then the penalty likewise could have been done away with or changed, so that Christ need not have died.
But the fact that the penalty could not be altered shows that the Law itself likewise can never be altered. It is eternal and unchangeable, as is God's character, of which the Law is a reflection, a transcript.
Unquote.
John.
You forget one important thing.
Jesus must come and die to redeem mankind from the sin they never committed, the original sin. If Adam never sinned, mankind will live happily in Eden till now and forever and didn’t need the Ten Commandments. But Adam has sinned, and the wages of sin is death. Remember that even there is no law (before the law was given to Moses), death already reigned in the world (Romans 5:13), because we are his descendants and through Adam, all of us must also die.
For this reason Christ must come and die to redeem us if he is a just, fair and loving God as he claimed he is.
Study this verse and think hard “- Romans 5:13 –“For until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”
Let’s say, the law was never given to mankind, but death reigns and all mankind will experience eternal death. Even though there is no law that could judge us and condemn us, but death as the wages of sin that we never commits is our part because we are Adam’s descendants. Our sins are not imputed because there is no law to judge and condemn us, but nevertheless we still must die.
Christ death on the cross at Calvary was a demonstration of the love of God that seeks no self. He justified all men from the sin they never commit. It gets even; in Adam all men is a sinner and must die, in Christ all men were made righteous and get their life back.
Romans 5:12,18,19 (NIV).
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous
Thus, either there is a law or there is no law, Christ MUST come and die to redeem mankind to show his love, mercy and grace and his justice.
But once the damage has been repaired, where all men got their life back through the redemption work of Christ Jesus, the law that was given with a special purpose for a specific time span as I have explained above comes to an end.
Since then, the standard of life for a FITNESS for heaven is no longer the written law engraved on stone tablets, but the principle of the law “love that seeks no self”, which is the character of heavenly beings that was created in God’s nature. There is no place for “self-loving” people, no matter a law keeper or not, no matter there is a law or not. Because a change of character doesn’t come from obedience to the law but come from the Spirit that works in a believer heart who lives by the Spirit to impart the love of God in their hearts. Just then they might “love one another” and are FIT for heaven. The law lost it meanings and functions because it could gives nothing good and perfect, just condemnation and death.
If you could not grasp this truth, you will never understand the true Gospel of Christ.
In His love
James S.
James, here's a thought for you, a paraphrase of an Ellen White statement:
If anything in God's ten-commandment law could be changed, or done away with, then Christ need not have died on Calvary's cross.
Did you get that? In saying that the obligations of the Ten Commandments have vanished, you're in effect saying that Jesus' sacrifice was useless and unnecessary. The fact that His death was the only thing that could satisfy the demands of that broken Law is the greatest evidence of its unchanging, eternal nature. If the obligations could ever be done away with or changed, then the penalty likewise could have been done away with or changed, so that Christ need not have died.
But the fact that the penalty could not be altered shows that the Law itself likewise can never be altered. It is eternal and unchangeable, as is God's character, of which the Law is a reflection, a transcript.
Unquote.
John.
You forget one important thing.
Jesus must come and die to redeem mankind from the sin they never committed, the original sin. If Adam never sinned, mankind will live happily in Eden till now and forever and didn’t need the Ten Commandments. But Adam has sinned, and the wages of sin is death. Remember that even there is no law (before the law was given to Moses), death already reigned in the world (Romans 5:13), because we are his descendants and through Adam, all of us must also die.
For this reason Christ must come and die to redeem us if he is a just, fair and loving God as he claimed he is.
Study this verse and think hard “- Romans 5:13 –“For until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”
Let’s say, the law was never given to mankind, but death reigns and all mankind will experience eternal death. Even though there is no law that could judge us and condemn us, but death as the wages of sin that we never commits is our part because we are Adam’s descendants. Our sins are not imputed because there is no law to judge and condemn us, but nevertheless we still must die.
Christ death on the cross at Calvary was a demonstration of the love of God that seeks no self. He justified all men from the sin they never commit. It gets even; in Adam all men is a sinner and must die, in Christ all men were made righteous and get their life back.
Romans 5:12,18,19 (NIV).
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous
Thus, either there is a law or there is no law, Christ MUST come and die to redeem mankind to show his love, mercy and grace and his justice.
But once the damage has been repaired, where all men got their life back through the redemption work of Christ Jesus, the law that was given with a special purpose for a specific time span as I have explained above comes to an end.
Since then, the standard of life for a FITNESS for heaven is no longer the written law engraved on stone tablets, but the principle of the law “love that seeks no self”, which is the character of heavenly beings that was created in God’s nature. There is no place for “self-loving” people, no matter a law keeper or not, no matter there is a law or not. Because a change of character doesn’t come from obedience to the law but come from the Spirit that works in a believer heart who lives by the Spirit to impart the love of God in their hearts. Just then they might “love one another” and are FIT for heaven. The law lost it meanings and functions because it could gives nothing good and perfect, just condemnation and death.
If you could not grasp this truth, you will never understand the true Gospel of Christ.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/05/02 04:06 PM
Charlene.
Thanks for your advice, but me too have given a good reason and you may compare it with the bible. Did I speak the truth or not?
Don't close your eyes because it is against the teaching of some one that you believe is God's prophet, because the SOP is the lesser light, and final decision for truth must be the greater light, the bible only!
In His love
James S.
Thanks for your advice, but me too have given a good reason and you may compare it with the bible. Did I speak the truth or not?
Don't close your eyes because it is against the teaching of some one that you believe is God's prophet, because the SOP is the lesser light, and final decision for truth must be the greater light, the bible only!
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/05/02 05:23 PM
I see that the Bible message and the messages of Ellen white are in harmony. I believe she is the Prophet of the last day Church, the "Remnant". If there is a last day Church of God that does not have a prophet...it is not the "remnant" church. Study the two together for one amplifies the other. The Bible in our map to follow on the road to Heaven and the Spirit of Prophecy is our personal guide of every step along the way. One works with the other, so there is no confusion and not getting lost.
If your "Gospel is in contrast to the Spirit of Prophecy, it is also in contrast to the Holy Bible, so examing where they depart from one another and study till harmony is found. A Doctrine is not built on one test alone but of the gathered evidence of the whole body of topical scripture and quotes. Plus the bible dictionary. I am sure you have put much study into you Gospel and i feel you have come here to teach more than to learn. I will not be studying what you have presented for i know it is false doctrine.......You have said it is against what Ellen White says so i know it is against the Bible also. I have studied these subjects with Bible and SOP and have found a different Gospel, I recomend, as a Seventh Day Adventist, you do the same....all these truths are found in the Bible but the same truth becomes expanded, and made clear by the SOP. God Bless your study.
If your "Gospel is in contrast to the Spirit of Prophecy, it is also in contrast to the Holy Bible, so examing where they depart from one another and study till harmony is found. A Doctrine is not built on one test alone but of the gathered evidence of the whole body of topical scripture and quotes. Plus the bible dictionary. I am sure you have put much study into you Gospel and i feel you have come here to teach more than to learn. I will not be studying what you have presented for i know it is false doctrine.......You have said it is against what Ellen White says so i know it is against the Bible also. I have studied these subjects with Bible and SOP and have found a different Gospel, I recomend, as a Seventh Day Adventist, you do the same....all these truths are found in the Bible but the same truth becomes expanded, and made clear by the SOP. God Bless your study.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/05/02 07:23 PM
Edward, Avalee and Charlene, the idea that we must first reach within ourselves to obey the requirements of God and then we are in a position to utilize the power of God, just doesn't make sense to me. If that's not what you guys are saying, then please forgive me.
Of all the quotes that have been used to prove that we must first do our part to obey God and then He'll do His part to help us obey, give the impression that we are using God instead of God using us.
But Philippians 2:12 and 13 make it very clear what the relationship is between our part and God's part in the business of obedience. And we must balance all other passages with this equation.
Philippians 2:12, 13
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
It’s God who empowers us to obey, not us empowering ourselves by tapping into God’s power source. We lack the hardware or software to obey. John 14:15 “If ye love me, keep my commandments” must be understood in light of Phil 2:13. That is, the love of God empowers us to obey the law.
To suggest that the “love” Jesus is referring to in John 14:15 is human love is a huge mistake. Human love cannot generate genuine obedience. Only the imparted agape love of Jesus can empower us to obey the law.
The “love” in John 14:15 is the gift of God we receive by accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour. It is a gift. We cannot produce it ourselves. And we cannot reproduce it after we receive it. We must continually stay connected to Jesus so that His love can continually flow through us afresh. It is this love that empowers us to obey the law.
It is also the love of God that enables us to cooperate with Him in order to obey the law. We do not possess the necessary skills or abilities to cooperate with God. We must first receive the gift of Jesus’ love before we can cooperate with God to obey the law.
Of all the quotes that have been used to prove that we must first do our part to obey God and then He'll do His part to help us obey, give the impression that we are using God instead of God using us.
But Philippians 2:12 and 13 make it very clear what the relationship is between our part and God's part in the business of obedience. And we must balance all other passages with this equation.
Philippians 2:12, 13
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
It’s God who empowers us to obey, not us empowering ourselves by tapping into God’s power source. We lack the hardware or software to obey. John 14:15 “If ye love me, keep my commandments” must be understood in light of Phil 2:13. That is, the love of God empowers us to obey the law.
To suggest that the “love” Jesus is referring to in John 14:15 is human love is a huge mistake. Human love cannot generate genuine obedience. Only the imparted agape love of Jesus can empower us to obey the law.
The “love” in John 14:15 is the gift of God we receive by accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour. It is a gift. We cannot produce it ourselves. And we cannot reproduce it after we receive it. We must continually stay connected to Jesus so that His love can continually flow through us afresh. It is this love that empowers us to obey the law.
It is also the love of God that enables us to cooperate with Him in order to obey the law. We do not possess the necessary skills or abilities to cooperate with God. We must first receive the gift of Jesus’ love before we can cooperate with God to obey the law.
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/05/02 07:25 PM
In The Blessed Hope
Avalee
[ June 05, 2002, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Avalee ]
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/05/02 10:02 PM
I must read things different than you Mike....I don't see that anywhere in my posts. I fact i see where i have stressed...."With Christ, i can do all things," and " with out me you can do nothing"....all we can produce is filthy rags...only in Christ can we do His will, this is what is see I have written...
You seem to add your interpretation to my words.
You seem to add your interpretation to my words.
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/05/02 10:08 PM
Mike I must agree with Charlene..once again you have misunderstood or tried to say what we mean. For the life of me I do not see how you come up with some of these interpretations.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/06/02 01:20 AM
Again, here's what Avalee wrote:
"When we with our human power combine it with the divine power of Christ we will be overcomers as Christ did."
Then on page 3 May 29 I wrote:
"I think your statement puts the cart before the horse. Perhaps it's symantics (the curse of the English language), but I believe it would be more accurate to phrase it this way:
"When we consent to allow Jesus to combine His divine nature with our human nature, He can then empower us to overcome as He overcame."
"Do you see the difference? The emphasis is on how Jesus can use us, rather than on how we can use Him." End quote.
Then Edward followed by saying how Avalee had it right, and Charlene agreed, and Avalee thanked them. From this I gathered that you three decided my post missed the mark.
I believe consent counts for cooperation. We do not possess the ability to cooperate with Jesus apart from the power of God. All we can do is consent for Jesus to empower us to cooperate with God. Once we consent and Jesus supplies the power we are then capable of uniting the human and divine resources to obey the law of God.
It all begins with consent, not cooperation. Somewhere EGW wrote that our part of the equation is puny compared to the part Jesus plays, but that puny part is very important.
"When we with our human power combine it with the divine power of Christ we will be overcomers as Christ did."
Then on page 3 May 29 I wrote:
"I think your statement puts the cart before the horse. Perhaps it's symantics (the curse of the English language), but I believe it would be more accurate to phrase it this way:
"When we consent to allow Jesus to combine His divine nature with our human nature, He can then empower us to overcome as He overcame."
"Do you see the difference? The emphasis is on how Jesus can use us, rather than on how we can use Him." End quote.
Then Edward followed by saying how Avalee had it right, and Charlene agreed, and Avalee thanked them. From this I gathered that you three decided my post missed the mark.
I believe consent counts for cooperation. We do not possess the ability to cooperate with Jesus apart from the power of God. All we can do is consent for Jesus to empower us to cooperate with God. Once we consent and Jesus supplies the power we are then capable of uniting the human and divine resources to obey the law of God.
It all begins with consent, not cooperation. Somewhere EGW wrote that our part of the equation is puny compared to the part Jesus plays, but that puny part is very important.
Posted By: John H.
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/06/02 02:32 AM
James -
You seem to think that before Sinai, the law of God didn't exist; that isn't true either.
Adam sinned. Romans 5:14. Sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4. Therefore, Adam transgressed the law. There's no way around that conclusion, without doing great violence to the Bible and its plain meaning. God's law was in existence, and in force, at the Creation, and has been in force ever since. It will always be in force.
"Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." -- Genesis 26:5. Abraham lived some four centuries before Sinai, yet we have this rock-solid statement directly from God Himself that His commandments, statutes, and laws were in force at that time.
"He is the Lord our God: His judgments are in all the earth. He hath remembered His covenant for ever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations. Which covenant He made with Abraham, and His oath unto Isaac; and confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant." Psalm 105:7-10. Jacob likewise lived long before Sinai.
There are many narrative examples in the Pentateuch that show the binding nature of the Ten Commandments long before Sinai.
Noah's son Ham dishonored him (Genesis 9:20-25). >>> "Honor thy father and thy mother." Exodus 20: 12.
Cain killed Abel (Genesis 4:8-16), and was punished for it. >>> "Thou shalt not kill." Exodus 20:13.
Joseph's master's wife tried to seduce him, but Joseph said, "How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?" Genesis 39:9. >>> "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Exodus 20:14.
Regarding the issue of the missing "stolen" cup, Judah said, "God hath found out the iniquity of thy servants." >>> "Thou shalt not steal." Exodus 20:15.
The serpent told Eve a falsehood, and was cursed for it (Genesis 3:4,14). >>> "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." Exodus 20:16.
Also before Sinai, "the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep My commandments and My laws?" Exodus 16:28.
It is true that God stated His law in a forceful fashion at Sinai; but it didn't begin then. The Law and the Sabbath had existed for millennia, but Israel had forgotten about the knowledge and worship of the true God. So He gave them a reminder they wouldn't forget. After He made Himself known to them in Egypt -- "In the day when I chose Israel, and lifted up Mine hand unto the seed of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known unto them in the land of Egypt, when I lifted up Mine hand unto them, saying, I am the Lord your God" (Ezekiel 20:5) -- He also reminded them about His law: "And madest known unto them Thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant." Nehemiah 9:14.
"Where no law is, there is no transgression." Romans 4:15. If you're going to say that there was no law before Sinai, then you're also saying that nobody sinned before Sinai; that would make a complete mockery of the Biblical record. Paul plainly wrote, "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23); that includes people who lived before Sinai. It includes every human who's ever lived, with the exception of Jesus Christ.
Once again, I repeat: a spiritual Christian must be subject to the law of God. Any person who is not subject to the law of God is neither spiritual, nor a Christian.
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:7,8.
That single statement of Paul's so clearly shows the relationship between keeping God's law and being in harmony with Him, that no further comment should even be necessary. But millions of professed Christians the world over ignore this crystal-clear statement; and evidently so are you, James. Mark well what Paul says here: being "not subject to the law of God" is the very same as "enmity against God". "Enmity" means "hate" -- so those who aren't subject to God's law, hate God! That is what the apostle Paul wrote, in language too plain to be misunderstood; and no amount of theological sleight-of-hand maneuvering can change that.
You also wrote,
James, I sincerely hope you can come to see the error in what you're saying. It doesn't square with Scripture, not at all. At every turn there's some new theory that strikes at the heart of "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3). I agree with Charlene -- it looks like you're taking a passage here and there, and using it to fit a pre-ordained agenda; all the while completely ignoring a mountain of evidence from a variety of Bible writers, that shows the truth to be pretty far different from what you're proposing.
As far as Ellen White is concerned -- you might notice that I've relied almost exclusively on the Bible here, to show the still-binding claims of God's law. We don't need Ellen White to prove historic SDA doctrines; they can all be shown from the Bible and the Bible alone. But thank God we have Ellen White! She serves as inspired confirmation of the teaching of the pioneers, and fills in some fuzzy spots in our understanding. I'd be very careful about pushing doctrines that contradict what she wrote. Like Charlene said, if you contradict EGW, you're contradicting the Bible too, since the SOP and Scripture are ALWAYS in complete harmony. Setting oneself up as a person who understands the Bible better than an inspired prophet of God did, is presumptuous to say the very least.
Peter wrote of those who "wrest.....scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16). Please don't be a part of that group!
quote:I'm sorry, m'friend; that concept is nothing more than a fanciful Catholic error that has no basis in Scripture whatsoever. It's like saying I'd have to go to the gas chamber for a crime I never personally committed. God is just, and doesn't hold people accountable for crimes, or sins, not actually personally committed. "Original sin" is just another man-made theory designed by the enemy to lead men astray.
You forget one important thing.
Jesus must come and die to redeem mankind from the sin they never committed, the original sin.
You seem to think that before Sinai, the law of God didn't exist; that isn't true either.
Adam sinned. Romans 5:14. Sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4. Therefore, Adam transgressed the law. There's no way around that conclusion, without doing great violence to the Bible and its plain meaning. God's law was in existence, and in force, at the Creation, and has been in force ever since. It will always be in force.
"Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." -- Genesis 26:5. Abraham lived some four centuries before Sinai, yet we have this rock-solid statement directly from God Himself that His commandments, statutes, and laws were in force at that time.
"He is the Lord our God: His judgments are in all the earth. He hath remembered His covenant for ever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations. Which covenant He made with Abraham, and His oath unto Isaac; and confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant." Psalm 105:7-10. Jacob likewise lived long before Sinai.
There are many narrative examples in the Pentateuch that show the binding nature of the Ten Commandments long before Sinai.
Noah's son Ham dishonored him (Genesis 9:20-25). >>> "Honor thy father and thy mother." Exodus 20: 12.
Cain killed Abel (Genesis 4:8-16), and was punished for it. >>> "Thou shalt not kill." Exodus 20:13.
Joseph's master's wife tried to seduce him, but Joseph said, "How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?" Genesis 39:9. >>> "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Exodus 20:14.
Regarding the issue of the missing "stolen" cup, Judah said, "God hath found out the iniquity of thy servants." >>> "Thou shalt not steal." Exodus 20:15.
The serpent told Eve a falsehood, and was cursed for it (Genesis 3:4,14). >>> "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." Exodus 20:16.
Also before Sinai, "the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep My commandments and My laws?" Exodus 16:28.
It is true that God stated His law in a forceful fashion at Sinai; but it didn't begin then. The Law and the Sabbath had existed for millennia, but Israel had forgotten about the knowledge and worship of the true God. So He gave them a reminder they wouldn't forget. After He made Himself known to them in Egypt -- "In the day when I chose Israel, and lifted up Mine hand unto the seed of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known unto them in the land of Egypt, when I lifted up Mine hand unto them, saying, I am the Lord your God" (Ezekiel 20:5) -- He also reminded them about His law: "And madest known unto them Thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant." Nehemiah 9:14.
"Where no law is, there is no transgression." Romans 4:15. If you're going to say that there was no law before Sinai, then you're also saying that nobody sinned before Sinai; that would make a complete mockery of the Biblical record. Paul plainly wrote, "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23); that includes people who lived before Sinai. It includes every human who's ever lived, with the exception of Jesus Christ.
Once again, I repeat: a spiritual Christian must be subject to the law of God. Any person who is not subject to the law of God is neither spiritual, nor a Christian.
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:7,8.
That single statement of Paul's so clearly shows the relationship between keeping God's law and being in harmony with Him, that no further comment should even be necessary. But millions of professed Christians the world over ignore this crystal-clear statement; and evidently so are you, James. Mark well what Paul says here: being "not subject to the law of God" is the very same as "enmity against God". "Enmity" means "hate" -- so those who aren't subject to God's law, hate God! That is what the apostle Paul wrote, in language too plain to be misunderstood; and no amount of theological sleight-of-hand maneuvering can change that.
You also wrote,
quote:Again I would direct you to Hebrews 10:16, which, taken together with Jeremiah 31:33, clearly shows that the law that God wants to write in our hearts is the law of Ten Commandments. You're trying to make a separation there, where none exists. The Ten Commandments ARE the law of love. "This is love, that we walk after His commandments." 2 John 6. "Love is the fulfilling of the law." Romans 13:10.
Since then, the standard of life for a FITNESS for heaven is no longer the written law engraved on stone tablets, but the principle of the law “love that seeks no self”, which is the character of heavenly beings that was created in God’s nature.
James, I sincerely hope you can come to see the error in what you're saying. It doesn't square with Scripture, not at all. At every turn there's some new theory that strikes at the heart of "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3). I agree with Charlene -- it looks like you're taking a passage here and there, and using it to fit a pre-ordained agenda; all the while completely ignoring a mountain of evidence from a variety of Bible writers, that shows the truth to be pretty far different from what you're proposing.
As far as Ellen White is concerned -- you might notice that I've relied almost exclusively on the Bible here, to show the still-binding claims of God's law. We don't need Ellen White to prove historic SDA doctrines; they can all be shown from the Bible and the Bible alone. But thank God we have Ellen White! She serves as inspired confirmation of the teaching of the pioneers, and fills in some fuzzy spots in our understanding. I'd be very careful about pushing doctrines that contradict what she wrote. Like Charlene said, if you contradict EGW, you're contradicting the Bible too, since the SOP and Scripture are ALWAYS in complete harmony. Setting oneself up as a person who understands the Bible better than an inspired prophet of God did, is presumptuous to say the very least.
Peter wrote of those who "wrest.....scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16). Please don't be a part of that group!
Posted By: John H.
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/06/02 02:45 AM
Avalee -
Please feel free to save whatever, use it however you see fit. This is a public forum after all, ain't it. Anyway, that comparison of God's character and His law is taken from something I saw years ago in an Amazing Facts tract; at the time I wrote those verse references down on a blank page in the study Bible where they'd always be accessible. All knowledge of such things comes from the Spirit of God to begin with, and should be freely shared, passed on, etc. -- the Holy Spirit is in the public domain!
Please feel free to save whatever, use it however you see fit. This is a public forum after all, ain't it. Anyway, that comparison of God's character and His law is taken from something I saw years ago in an Amazing Facts tract; at the time I wrote those verse references down on a blank page in the study Bible where they'd always be accessible. All knowledge of such things comes from the Spirit of God to begin with, and should be freely shared, passed on, etc. -- the Holy Spirit is in the public domain!
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/08/02 03:51 PM
John.
If you study the bible, you will find out that what you think and believe is wrong. I have explained it well but maybe you overlooked it. So, I will try again.
Romans 5:12-14 (NIV).
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
How could sin enter the world through one man (Adam)? Answer: Through Adam multiplication.
Adam was created in the likeness of God with love that seeks no self in his heart, but since he choused to serve himself, to serve his desire for the flesh; he lost this agape love and changed his heart to the love for self. This love for self becomes Adam’s nature and passed to his descendant’s trough multiplication. This nature becomes all men’s nature. Psalm 51:5 – “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”
So, if the bible said that you and me were born sinful, sinful since in the womb of our mother, would you deny this fact and said that there is no “original sin?” What “sin” can a new born baby do? If what you know is only sin we committed when we break the law, then you don’t understand the basic principle of the Gospel of Christ. A newborn baby didn’t and couldn’t commit sin in breaking God’s law, but nevertheless she must die for the wages of sin she brought since her birthdate. What sin is it? It is the sin of self-love that is her nature, a condition of man that is against the nature of God. Self-love is against God’s agape love, a love that seeks no self in it. And since she was born sinful, she will experience death as the wages of sin, a sin she never committed and a death she didn’t deserve.
Before the law was given to Moses at Sinai, sin was already in the world and death came upon all men, even over those who didn’t commit a sin in breaking God’s law (babies). But this sin is not taken into account when there is no law, for that, God must give mankind a written law that has authority over them and can judge them and condemn them for their sin. If there is no law, what is the standard of judgment and condemnation? Men would never know why they must die and questions would be raised against God’s integrity.
All commands given orally by God before Sinai will not judge and condemn man if it didn’t come into effect, and that means when it didn’t come in writings.
So, when the bible said that before Sinai there is no law, it means there is no law that has an authority over us that would judge and condemn us, but nevertheless we die, because we have the sin of self-love, which is our nature that is against God’s nature.
For men to know their sin, the law must be given in writings as from the law come the knowledge of sin. Once they know their sin, they will blame God for this, why did he create them in sin? Only God didn’t create men in sin but in his likeness, so, all men die for the sin they didn’t commit, a death they didn’t deserve.
But God is just and merciful, if he didn’t take an action and leave this to man’s sake, he would become a God that is injustice, unfair, unloving and cruel. Fortunately, we have a God that is abundantly in love, justice and mercy. He prepared a way to redeem men from the death they didn’t deserve and from the sin they never committed. And this way is in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, whom he send to the world to became a man and die for us, so that we may have our life again.
But before Jesus come, a means must be given to introduce men to his sin, death as the wages of sin and his need for a redeemer. Therefore the law was given at Sinai that was a means to reveals the sin in us, our self-love nature, and the wages of it, which is death. In the law also was given the promise of a Redeemer and Savior of the world, introduced through the sacrificial law.
The whole law given at Sinai was the means to lead men to Christ that will redeem them from death and justify them from the sin they never committed (Romans 5:18,19). It was designated for a period of time only, till “the Seed should come to whom the promise was given” (Galatians 3:19). A period of time that span from Moses till John (the year when Christ was crucified) – Luke 16:16.
With his death on the cross, Christ accomplished his mission but unfinished. He only justifies all men, to reconcile them with God and gives their life back. But this act on the cross didn’t change men’s nature; we are still sinful with a love for self. He has no time to stay longer on earth, but when he left this earth he promised men that he would send His Spirit that will finished the mission Christ was unable to do. Through a life led by the Spirit, men’s character would be changed and recreate back again in the nature of God. Love to their fellow men will change their attitude of self-love, and when they have this they are FIT for heaven.
Christ justification is imputed, that is our TICKET to heaven and the sanctification done by the Spirit is Christ imparted righteousness; it is our FITNESS for heaven.
Along with Christ death, the law comes to an end as it was just a means to lead people to Christ. Once in him by faith, you will not continue with the law (Galatians 3:23-25) but you will continue with a life led by the Spirit for sanctification that make you FIT to enter heaven and live there.
In His love
James S.
If you study the bible, you will find out that what you think and believe is wrong. I have explained it well but maybe you overlooked it. So, I will try again.
Romans 5:12-14 (NIV).
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
How could sin enter the world through one man (Adam)? Answer: Through Adam multiplication.
Adam was created in the likeness of God with love that seeks no self in his heart, but since he choused to serve himself, to serve his desire for the flesh; he lost this agape love and changed his heart to the love for self. This love for self becomes Adam’s nature and passed to his descendant’s trough multiplication. This nature becomes all men’s nature. Psalm 51:5 – “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”
So, if the bible said that you and me were born sinful, sinful since in the womb of our mother, would you deny this fact and said that there is no “original sin?” What “sin” can a new born baby do? If what you know is only sin we committed when we break the law, then you don’t understand the basic principle of the Gospel of Christ. A newborn baby didn’t and couldn’t commit sin in breaking God’s law, but nevertheless she must die for the wages of sin she brought since her birthdate. What sin is it? It is the sin of self-love that is her nature, a condition of man that is against the nature of God. Self-love is against God’s agape love, a love that seeks no self in it. And since she was born sinful, she will experience death as the wages of sin, a sin she never committed and a death she didn’t deserve.
Before the law was given to Moses at Sinai, sin was already in the world and death came upon all men, even over those who didn’t commit a sin in breaking God’s law (babies). But this sin is not taken into account when there is no law, for that, God must give mankind a written law that has authority over them and can judge them and condemn them for their sin. If there is no law, what is the standard of judgment and condemnation? Men would never know why they must die and questions would be raised against God’s integrity.
All commands given orally by God before Sinai will not judge and condemn man if it didn’t come into effect, and that means when it didn’t come in writings.
So, when the bible said that before Sinai there is no law, it means there is no law that has an authority over us that would judge and condemn us, but nevertheless we die, because we have the sin of self-love, which is our nature that is against God’s nature.
For men to know their sin, the law must be given in writings as from the law come the knowledge of sin. Once they know their sin, they will blame God for this, why did he create them in sin? Only God didn’t create men in sin but in his likeness, so, all men die for the sin they didn’t commit, a death they didn’t deserve.
But God is just and merciful, if he didn’t take an action and leave this to man’s sake, he would become a God that is injustice, unfair, unloving and cruel. Fortunately, we have a God that is abundantly in love, justice and mercy. He prepared a way to redeem men from the death they didn’t deserve and from the sin they never committed. And this way is in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, whom he send to the world to became a man and die for us, so that we may have our life again.
But before Jesus come, a means must be given to introduce men to his sin, death as the wages of sin and his need for a redeemer. Therefore the law was given at Sinai that was a means to reveals the sin in us, our self-love nature, and the wages of it, which is death. In the law also was given the promise of a Redeemer and Savior of the world, introduced through the sacrificial law.
The whole law given at Sinai was the means to lead men to Christ that will redeem them from death and justify them from the sin they never committed (Romans 5:18,19). It was designated for a period of time only, till “the Seed should come to whom the promise was given” (Galatians 3:19). A period of time that span from Moses till John (the year when Christ was crucified) – Luke 16:16.
With his death on the cross, Christ accomplished his mission but unfinished. He only justifies all men, to reconcile them with God and gives their life back. But this act on the cross didn’t change men’s nature; we are still sinful with a love for self. He has no time to stay longer on earth, but when he left this earth he promised men that he would send His Spirit that will finished the mission Christ was unable to do. Through a life led by the Spirit, men’s character would be changed and recreate back again in the nature of God. Love to their fellow men will change their attitude of self-love, and when they have this they are FIT for heaven.
Christ justification is imputed, that is our TICKET to heaven and the sanctification done by the Spirit is Christ imparted righteousness; it is our FITNESS for heaven.
Along with Christ death, the law comes to an end as it was just a means to lead people to Christ. Once in him by faith, you will not continue with the law (Galatians 3:23-25) but you will continue with a life led by the Spirit for sanctification that make you FIT to enter heaven and live there.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/08/02 03:53 PM
Quote.
Again I would direct you to Hebrews 10:16, which, taken together with Jeremiah 31:33, clearly shows that the law that God wants to write in our hearts is the law of Ten Commandments. You're trying to make a separation there, where none exists. The Ten Commandments ARE the law of love. "This is love, that we walk after His commandments." 2 John 6. "Love is the fulfilling of the law." Romans 13:10.
Unquote.
You didn’t know what you are saying. Before the Ten Commandments ever exist, there is only one law in heaven. The law of love that was based on God’s nature. It is not the Ten Cs that would be written in our heart because this law kills and lead to condemnation (you were obliged to keep and obey it, but you have not the ability to perform that – 2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Romans 7:9-11, 14-23). What will be written in our heart is the same law in Adam when he was created, the love of God! A recreating done by the Spirit! With this love in your heart, you can love your fellow man, a character that fits heavenly character.
John, you have still a lot to learn if you want learn more.
In his love
James S.
Again I would direct you to Hebrews 10:16, which, taken together with Jeremiah 31:33, clearly shows that the law that God wants to write in our hearts is the law of Ten Commandments. You're trying to make a separation there, where none exists. The Ten Commandments ARE the law of love. "This is love, that we walk after His commandments." 2 John 6. "Love is the fulfilling of the law." Romans 13:10.
Unquote.
You didn’t know what you are saying. Before the Ten Commandments ever exist, there is only one law in heaven. The law of love that was based on God’s nature. It is not the Ten Cs that would be written in our heart because this law kills and lead to condemnation (you were obliged to keep and obey it, but you have not the ability to perform that – 2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Romans 7:9-11, 14-23). What will be written in our heart is the same law in Adam when he was created, the love of God! A recreating done by the Spirit! With this love in your heart, you can love your fellow man, a character that fits heavenly character.
John, you have still a lot to learn if you want learn more.
In his love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/08/02 04:00 PM
Since the cross, men was reconciled to God in Christ and those who believe him will have a change of nature that is fit for heaven (through the work of the Spirit) and will live for ever because Christ has redeem him from the first death. But those who lives for the flesh are not in him, will die the second death as the wages from their own sins, there is no more redemption for them.
SIN is our self-love nature, the “original sin” we were born with.
Sin is the deeds that break God’s law, born from our sinful desire.
SIN is the source for the deeds we did which is sin in it self as it breaks the principle of the law. That’s why no man would be justified by the law with his obedience as no one can do “good” things, no one have “good” deeds, no one can fulfil the demands of the law if what is “good” is “love to our fellow man” but all what we have is love for self, which is our nature.
If we could keep the law and fulfils it demands, Christ didn’t need to come for we have the righteousness required by the law and for that we will be rewarded with eternal life (Leviticus 18:4,5; Romans 10:5). But unfortunately no one could, for that reason Christ must come and die to redeem man, because this nature men is hopeless, something they deserve as it is not their fault. God didn’t create man in this nature, he created them with love that seeks no self in their heart, in the likeness of his nature. He could not and will not leave men alone and forever in this state, helpless and without hope.
He create a way of salvation, he will send his only begotten Son to die for men, to redeem them from the wages of sin and gives their life back. But first he must create a way so that people might now this coming Redeemer and Savior of men. He made the law wherein in the law, men would find their Redeemer through their need for a redeemer as in the law they come to know their sin and its wages, the sin they were born with. This law was given only to Israel that was chosen among all tribes and for the Jews only, and just for a specified period of time, “until the Seed come to whom the promise was made” (Galatians 3:19), until the cross in John time (Luke 16:16).
Why is the law designated for a period of time only and not forever? Because the law was only a way to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24), a means for God to shows his justice, mercy and love through the Jews as Abraham descendants to whom his promise was made.
Once the sacrifice has done, once the redeeming took place, once the reconciliation was established the law was no longer needed and lost it functions. Since then God wants faith from men to his Son, he wants them to believe and accept his Son and what he has done. The law is no longer needed for those who believe and have faith in Christ (Galatians 3:25). Who needs it anyway, if I believe him and his promise that if I were in him and he in me I will bear much fruit (John 15:1-5), fruit of the Spirit that fulfils the demands of the law.
In His love
James S.
SIN is our self-love nature, the “original sin” we were born with.
Sin is the deeds that break God’s law, born from our sinful desire.
SIN is the source for the deeds we did which is sin in it self as it breaks the principle of the law. That’s why no man would be justified by the law with his obedience as no one can do “good” things, no one have “good” deeds, no one can fulfil the demands of the law if what is “good” is “love to our fellow man” but all what we have is love for self, which is our nature.
If we could keep the law and fulfils it demands, Christ didn’t need to come for we have the righteousness required by the law and for that we will be rewarded with eternal life (Leviticus 18:4,5; Romans 10:5). But unfortunately no one could, for that reason Christ must come and die to redeem man, because this nature men is hopeless, something they deserve as it is not their fault. God didn’t create man in this nature, he created them with love that seeks no self in their heart, in the likeness of his nature. He could not and will not leave men alone and forever in this state, helpless and without hope.
He create a way of salvation, he will send his only begotten Son to die for men, to redeem them from the wages of sin and gives their life back. But first he must create a way so that people might now this coming Redeemer and Savior of men. He made the law wherein in the law, men would find their Redeemer through their need for a redeemer as in the law they come to know their sin and its wages, the sin they were born with. This law was given only to Israel that was chosen among all tribes and for the Jews only, and just for a specified period of time, “until the Seed come to whom the promise was made” (Galatians 3:19), until the cross in John time (Luke 16:16).
Why is the law designated for a period of time only and not forever? Because the law was only a way to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24), a means for God to shows his justice, mercy and love through the Jews as Abraham descendants to whom his promise was made.
Once the sacrifice has done, once the redeeming took place, once the reconciliation was established the law was no longer needed and lost it functions. Since then God wants faith from men to his Son, he wants them to believe and accept his Son and what he has done. The law is no longer needed for those who believe and have faith in Christ (Galatians 3:25). Who needs it anyway, if I believe him and his promise that if I were in him and he in me I will bear much fruit (John 15:1-5), fruit of the Spirit that fulfils the demands of the law.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/08/02 04:03 PM
It is not logic and doesn’t make sense if people say and teach I must keep the law in spite of my faith in Christ and a life led by the Spirit. If I have faith and want to live by the Spirit, I must die first in order Christ might live in me to do “his willing and his doing”.
“I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me;” – Galatians 2:20.
I live but not in the flesh, it is a life led by the Spirit, it is Christ that lives in me and doing his willing and his doing in me. What is death is my sinful flesh, my desire to do evil, the sin in me. As He promised, that he will release me from the power of sin through the Spirit.
And to do that he must nail the law to his cross, abolished it in his flesh in order his believers might live by faith under the leading of the Spirit. Otherwise they will only live in sin, because “the power of sin is the law” (1 Corinthians 15:56).
It is written - “But if ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law” (Galatians 5:18). This verse doesn’t mean that if we are led by the Spirit, we are not under condemnation of the law. What is the base of this theory? Is it because if we are led by the Spirit we will not commit sins? Read the verse before – “This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye cannot do the things that ye would” – Galatians 5:16,17. These verse said that because our sinful nature is against what the Spirit desires, even we give our self to be led by the Spirit, it is not a one day job to release us from the grip of sin. The lust of the flesh is our nature desires that would be erased by the Spirit when we give our self under his leading. But since the Spirit is not our spirit (you need faith to have it), and since our will is unstable, and also we still have a free will besides Satan is still alive and active, from time to time we still might do the things we do not want to do (evil things – compare it with Romans 7:14-23). But if we are led by the Spirit, we are not under the law, because if we were, the law will judge us and found us guilty and condemn us with death in spite Christ has saved us and gives our life back.
Under the law means: under the authority of the law and obligation to keep and obey it, under it judgment and condemnation if we were found guilty. It doesn’t only means under condemnation, how can a man be condemned by the law if he is not under it authority and break the law?
So, we are not under the law if we are led by the Spirit means we are not under the condemnation of the law because we are never under its authority and obligation to keep it! A Spirit led believer doesn’t need the law, because the Spirit is in him all right, that will make him has the fruit of the Spirit, which fulfils the demands of the law. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance; against such THERE IS NO LAW” – Galatians 5:22,23.
In His love
James S
“I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me;” – Galatians 2:20.
I live but not in the flesh, it is a life led by the Spirit, it is Christ that lives in me and doing his willing and his doing in me. What is death is my sinful flesh, my desire to do evil, the sin in me. As He promised, that he will release me from the power of sin through the Spirit.
And to do that he must nail the law to his cross, abolished it in his flesh in order his believers might live by faith under the leading of the Spirit. Otherwise they will only live in sin, because “the power of sin is the law” (1 Corinthians 15:56).
It is written - “But if ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law” (Galatians 5:18). This verse doesn’t mean that if we are led by the Spirit, we are not under condemnation of the law. What is the base of this theory? Is it because if we are led by the Spirit we will not commit sins? Read the verse before – “This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye cannot do the things that ye would” – Galatians 5:16,17. These verse said that because our sinful nature is against what the Spirit desires, even we give our self to be led by the Spirit, it is not a one day job to release us from the grip of sin. The lust of the flesh is our nature desires that would be erased by the Spirit when we give our self under his leading. But since the Spirit is not our spirit (you need faith to have it), and since our will is unstable, and also we still have a free will besides Satan is still alive and active, from time to time we still might do the things we do not want to do (evil things – compare it with Romans 7:14-23). But if we are led by the Spirit, we are not under the law, because if we were, the law will judge us and found us guilty and condemn us with death in spite Christ has saved us and gives our life back.
Under the law means: under the authority of the law and obligation to keep and obey it, under it judgment and condemnation if we were found guilty. It doesn’t only means under condemnation, how can a man be condemned by the law if he is not under it authority and break the law?
So, we are not under the law if we are led by the Spirit means we are not under the condemnation of the law because we are never under its authority and obligation to keep it! A Spirit led believer doesn’t need the law, because the Spirit is in him all right, that will make him has the fruit of the Spirit, which fulfils the demands of the law. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance; against such THERE IS NO LAW” – Galatians 5:22,23.
In His love
James S
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/08/02 04:05 PM
It is also written - “For sin shall not have dominion over you; for ye are not under the law, but under grace” (Romans 6:14).
What means being under grace? It is being under God love and mercy, that forgives our sins and doesn’t remember it anymore (“For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more” – Hebrew 8:12) in spite we still did the things we do not want to do (evil things). This is in line with what is written in Romans 8:1,2 –“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is “fruits of the Spirit”, love that seeks no self, heaven principle that is based on God’s nature, the only law that ruled in heaven. When you have this love, you will be released from the law (power) of sin and death as it wages. When you have “fruit of the Spirit”, your obedience to the law (which “fake fruits”) is not needed and doesn’t count as it is just “filthy rags.”
Not under the law released us from the dominion of sin, as the power of sin is the law. But this conditions happen only if you live after the Spirit and not under the law, if you live under grace; the grace of God that justifies all men freely through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The grace of God that brings righteousness without the law, a righteousness that comes through faith in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:21-24). Including a righteousness that comes through the work of the Spirit in those who are led by the Spirit.
Those who live after the Spirit is released from the law (Christ has abolished it in his flesh for those who believe him – Ephesians 2:15). And if there is no law, there is no transgressions (Romans 4:15) and sin is not imputed (Romans 5:13), there would be no condemnation besides God didn’t remember our sins and iniquities.
With this facts and Scriptural basis explained, what make you thinks that the law still exists and binds you under it obligation? Is it because the church taught you so, is it because some one taught you so? But this teaching is based on sand, based on human toughs and logic and common sense.
If you say that this teaching has passed all test and stands for thousands or hundreds years, why did you say that the Catholic and Protestant churches taught a false gospel. Are they not established for thousand and hundreds years too and has passed test and searches for the truth?
The point is: if I have fruits of the Spirit that fulfils the demands of the law, why should there a need to keep and obey the law? If there is no fruits of the Spirit, may be this obligation is necessary. But if I have all deeds required by the law, even there is no law would I do evil by living in sin? No! If I did, I am not led by the Spirit but by the flesh.
Do you think that by keeping and obeying the law make you better in performance according to the righteousness required by the law? The Scripture said as I have explained above and in all my postings; the power of sin is the law, if I keep the law I will be under dominion of sin. How could it happen?
Because it is my desire (not the Spirit) to keep the law (it was nailed to the cross 2000 years ago). And since my desire is the desire of the sinful flesh, a will that is under dominion of sin that dwells in me, the nature of self-love, how could I fulfils the demands of the law that is “love that seeks no self?” My nature is against the spirit of the law (The law is spiritual, but I am flesh sold under sin-Romans 714), which make what ever I do is not “good’ enough before the law (just filthy rags) as I fall short of the glory of God, falls short of his agape love.
Only by a life led by the Spirit through faith I may have the spirit of the law in my heart that expressed it self in deeds of love that fulfils the righteous demands of the law. That make the law and it obligation to keep lost it meanings, it will only hinder the work of the Spirit.
In His love
James S.
What means being under grace? It is being under God love and mercy, that forgives our sins and doesn’t remember it anymore (“For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more” – Hebrew 8:12) in spite we still did the things we do not want to do (evil things). This is in line with what is written in Romans 8:1,2 –“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is “fruits of the Spirit”, love that seeks no self, heaven principle that is based on God’s nature, the only law that ruled in heaven. When you have this love, you will be released from the law (power) of sin and death as it wages. When you have “fruit of the Spirit”, your obedience to the law (which “fake fruits”) is not needed and doesn’t count as it is just “filthy rags.”
Not under the law released us from the dominion of sin, as the power of sin is the law. But this conditions happen only if you live after the Spirit and not under the law, if you live under grace; the grace of God that justifies all men freely through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The grace of God that brings righteousness without the law, a righteousness that comes through faith in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:21-24). Including a righteousness that comes through the work of the Spirit in those who are led by the Spirit.
Those who live after the Spirit is released from the law (Christ has abolished it in his flesh for those who believe him – Ephesians 2:15). And if there is no law, there is no transgressions (Romans 4:15) and sin is not imputed (Romans 5:13), there would be no condemnation besides God didn’t remember our sins and iniquities.
With this facts and Scriptural basis explained, what make you thinks that the law still exists and binds you under it obligation? Is it because the church taught you so, is it because some one taught you so? But this teaching is based on sand, based on human toughs and logic and common sense.
If you say that this teaching has passed all test and stands for thousands or hundreds years, why did you say that the Catholic and Protestant churches taught a false gospel. Are they not established for thousand and hundreds years too and has passed test and searches for the truth?
The point is: if I have fruits of the Spirit that fulfils the demands of the law, why should there a need to keep and obey the law? If there is no fruits of the Spirit, may be this obligation is necessary. But if I have all deeds required by the law, even there is no law would I do evil by living in sin? No! If I did, I am not led by the Spirit but by the flesh.
Do you think that by keeping and obeying the law make you better in performance according to the righteousness required by the law? The Scripture said as I have explained above and in all my postings; the power of sin is the law, if I keep the law I will be under dominion of sin. How could it happen?
Because it is my desire (not the Spirit) to keep the law (it was nailed to the cross 2000 years ago). And since my desire is the desire of the sinful flesh, a will that is under dominion of sin that dwells in me, the nature of self-love, how could I fulfils the demands of the law that is “love that seeks no self?” My nature is against the spirit of the law (The law is spiritual, but I am flesh sold under sin-Romans 714), which make what ever I do is not “good’ enough before the law (just filthy rags) as I fall short of the glory of God, falls short of his agape love.
Only by a life led by the Spirit through faith I may have the spirit of the law in my heart that expressed it self in deeds of love that fulfils the righteous demands of the law. That make the law and it obligation to keep lost it meanings, it will only hinder the work of the Spirit.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/08/02 04:07 PM
Do you think and believe that the Spirit will empower you to keep and obey the law? Do you believe that in Christ I can do all things include in obeying the law? You are wrong, there is no basic for this theory.
The Spirit can not and will not empower you to keep and obey a law that was nailed by Christ 2000 years ago. And also how could the Spirit empower a desire to keep and obey the law that comes or based on the desire of the flesh? The desire of the Spirit is against the desire of the flesh, not cooperating or strengthening it. On the contrary, the job and responsibility of the Spirit is to set you free from the desire of the flesh, to release you from the power of sin that dominate you. But how could you be freed if you keep and obey the law, which empower sin to become stronger in dominating you?
Read and study all my post again and see if I didn’t speak the truth according to the gospel of Christ? If you think I’m not, give me Scriptural basic, verses to back up your idea. Bible only!
There are to many evidence and Scriptural basic in Pauline epistle that conforms to my idea. But less and weak basic to hold the idea of the law still exist and binding upon all believers in Christ.
Since Christ has died to save all men and gives their life back, there must be no law stands that will again condemns men and put them back to death. Otherwise Christ death is worthless and means nothing. We die again the second death not because there is a law that condemns us in breaking the letter, but because we choose to live for self. We choose to live for the flesh, we choose to live in sin in the means a love for our self, we didn’t love our fellow men (but how could we, if it is fruit of the Spirit from a life led by the Spirit?).
We must live as Christ lived not in his obedience to the law but in his love for his fellow men. He has shown and proved his ultimate love for men with his death and humiliation that is unbearable, only for you and me so that we might live. This is what he wants from us: “Keep my commandments” and this is my commandments “Love one another” (John 13:34; 14:15,21; 15:10, 12,17).
He never said “keep the Ten Commandments”, because he knew this law only brings condemnation and death.
Paul said regarding the Ten Commandments: “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit, for the letter KILLS, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought DEATH, which was ENGRAVED in LETTERS ON STONE……………………..If the ministry that CONDEMNS men………”
There is no more law for Christ’s believers, in fact since the law was nailed to the cross 2000 years ago, there is no more law for all men. Justification is a free gift because the law could not justify us, sanctification is the work of the Spirit (Romans 15:16; 1 Peter 1:2) because we could never sanctify our self through the law. So, the law must go and finished, it has accomplished it missions, leading the Jews to Christ and leading me also. Once in Christ the law is behind me, looking forward with faith, holding on to His Spirit in my heart, he will lead me through the unseen road of righteousness till the gate of heaven and enter it to live there and eat the fruit of life. “We live by faith, not by sight” – 2 Corinthians 5:7.
In His love
James S
The Spirit can not and will not empower you to keep and obey a law that was nailed by Christ 2000 years ago. And also how could the Spirit empower a desire to keep and obey the law that comes or based on the desire of the flesh? The desire of the Spirit is against the desire of the flesh, not cooperating or strengthening it. On the contrary, the job and responsibility of the Spirit is to set you free from the desire of the flesh, to release you from the power of sin that dominate you. But how could you be freed if you keep and obey the law, which empower sin to become stronger in dominating you?
Read and study all my post again and see if I didn’t speak the truth according to the gospel of Christ? If you think I’m not, give me Scriptural basic, verses to back up your idea. Bible only!
There are to many evidence and Scriptural basic in Pauline epistle that conforms to my idea. But less and weak basic to hold the idea of the law still exist and binding upon all believers in Christ.
Since Christ has died to save all men and gives their life back, there must be no law stands that will again condemns men and put them back to death. Otherwise Christ death is worthless and means nothing. We die again the second death not because there is a law that condemns us in breaking the letter, but because we choose to live for self. We choose to live for the flesh, we choose to live in sin in the means a love for our self, we didn’t love our fellow men (but how could we, if it is fruit of the Spirit from a life led by the Spirit?).
We must live as Christ lived not in his obedience to the law but in his love for his fellow men. He has shown and proved his ultimate love for men with his death and humiliation that is unbearable, only for you and me so that we might live. This is what he wants from us: “Keep my commandments” and this is my commandments “Love one another” (John 13:34; 14:15,21; 15:10, 12,17).
He never said “keep the Ten Commandments”, because he knew this law only brings condemnation and death.
Paul said regarding the Ten Commandments: “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit, for the letter KILLS, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought DEATH, which was ENGRAVED in LETTERS ON STONE……………………..If the ministry that CONDEMNS men………”
There is no more law for Christ’s believers, in fact since the law was nailed to the cross 2000 years ago, there is no more law for all men. Justification is a free gift because the law could not justify us, sanctification is the work of the Spirit (Romans 15:16; 1 Peter 1:2) because we could never sanctify our self through the law. So, the law must go and finished, it has accomplished it missions, leading the Jews to Christ and leading me also. Once in Christ the law is behind me, looking forward with faith, holding on to His Spirit in my heart, he will lead me through the unseen road of righteousness till the gate of heaven and enter it to live there and eat the fruit of life. “We live by faith, not by sight” – 2 Corinthians 5:7.
In His love
James S
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/08/02 04:35 PM
Mike.
You are right about Avalee, Charlene and some others.
You and me differ only in the fact that the law is still binding for you and that you are obliged to keep and obey it, although you admit that your obedience are purely fruit of the Spirit.
For me, the law no longer exist and I have no obligation whatsoever against it. My obligation is to live for God and not for the flesh. My obligation is to live by faith and led buy the Spirit. The Spirit then will work in me to do “the willing and the doing of God”. The result is deeds of love to one another that came from God’s love that was imparted in my heart. Since the deeds fulfils the righteous demands of the law, why should I again keep and obey a law that its principle was already implanted in my heart and is the source of my doings?
Paul said; “1If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God” – Galatians 2:18,19.
Which means, if I take the law again (which I have destroyed the idea that the law makes me righteous) and made it an obligation to keep and obey, I will make myself again a transgressor, because the law will only expose my sinful nature again and with that condemns me. And since it is the job of the Spirit to recreate me in the likeness of God by imparting his love in my heart that wants to live for God, it is a sin to take the law and made it again a rule for righteousness.
The law killed me and I am dead to the law, so that I might live for God. How? Through a life led by the Spirit with faith in Christ. Keeping and obeying the law make me live for self, as it is “my desire” to keep and obey it.
I was crucified with Christ and I no longer live but Christ that lives in me. It is his desire to recreate me back in God’s nature through the work of his Spirit. If I awaken my desire to keep and obey a law that killed me in spite of the life Christ has given me back, I will lay him aside and lives for self.
In His love
James S
You are right about Avalee, Charlene and some others.
You and me differ only in the fact that the law is still binding for you and that you are obliged to keep and obey it, although you admit that your obedience are purely fruit of the Spirit.
For me, the law no longer exist and I have no obligation whatsoever against it. My obligation is to live for God and not for the flesh. My obligation is to live by faith and led buy the Spirit. The Spirit then will work in me to do “the willing and the doing of God”. The result is deeds of love to one another that came from God’s love that was imparted in my heart. Since the deeds fulfils the righteous demands of the law, why should I again keep and obey a law that its principle was already implanted in my heart and is the source of my doings?
Paul said; “1If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God” – Galatians 2:18,19.
Which means, if I take the law again (which I have destroyed the idea that the law makes me righteous) and made it an obligation to keep and obey, I will make myself again a transgressor, because the law will only expose my sinful nature again and with that condemns me. And since it is the job of the Spirit to recreate me in the likeness of God by imparting his love in my heart that wants to live for God, it is a sin to take the law and made it again a rule for righteousness.
The law killed me and I am dead to the law, so that I might live for God. How? Through a life led by the Spirit with faith in Christ. Keeping and obeying the law make me live for self, as it is “my desire” to keep and obey it.
I was crucified with Christ and I no longer live but Christ that lives in me. It is his desire to recreate me back in God’s nature through the work of his Spirit. If I awaken my desire to keep and obey a law that killed me in spite of the life Christ has given me back, I will lay him aside and lives for self.
In His love
James S
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/09/02 12:13 AM
Thank you James for saying that 
..I am very happy to not be in harmony with your thinking However...I am am so blessed to be in harmony with God....The Bible....and the Seventh-day Adventist Church...and Charlene...and Ed..and whoever else believes in Gospel Truths. James I will...along with the others here be praying for you. Have you been able to talk to someone in the local Seventh-day Adventist Church there for help in some of these things?
In The Blessed Hope
Avalee
[ June 08, 2002, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Avalee ]
..I am very happy to not be in harmony with your thinking However...I am am so blessed to be in harmony with God....The Bible....and the Seventh-day Adventist Church...and Charlene...and Ed..and whoever else believes in Gospel Truths. James I will...along with the others here be praying for you. Have you been able to talk to someone in the local Seventh-day Adventist Church there for help in some of these things?In The Blessed Hope
Avalee
[ June 08, 2002, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Avalee ]
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/09/02 12:49 AM
James,
I have not studied your presentation so I come to you without knowing exactly what you have said but i have read enough to know you come to this Seventh-Day-Adventist forum "preaching a False gospel"
You said you are a SDA, but what you present is not the teachings of the Bible and your church and your prophet. You also said you come with a humble spirit wanting to learn, but i see a spirit of rebelion and wanting to despute the established truth of God in the Remnant Church.
Some have taken you at your word and patiently presented to you the Gospel as it is in Jesus Christ....You have rejected that also.....Do you realise that when you reject God's truth you reject God, and Rejecting God leads to destruction.
I would venture to say everyone on this forum loves you and wishes to show you where you err, but i feel you do not want to be taught/learn but only want to teach your error. I for one will not read or respond anymore to your posts....i do not want to be part of any false Gospel, or aid in any way your message. I pray no one will be led astray from reading your words....but plea with you to study your own churches truth and appreciate the clear words of your prophet, and most of all, Allow the holy Spirit to guide you into all truth, The Seventh Day Adventist Church has the truth for these last days, Thank God for it and believe it so you may cross over into the promised land.
You are in my prayers.
I have not studied your presentation so I come to you without knowing exactly what you have said but i have read enough to know you come to this Seventh-Day-Adventist forum "preaching a False gospel"
You said you are a SDA, but what you present is not the teachings of the Bible and your church and your prophet. You also said you come with a humble spirit wanting to learn, but i see a spirit of rebelion and wanting to despute the established truth of God in the Remnant Church.
Some have taken you at your word and patiently presented to you the Gospel as it is in Jesus Christ....You have rejected that also.....Do you realise that when you reject God's truth you reject God, and Rejecting God leads to destruction.
I would venture to say everyone on this forum loves you and wishes to show you where you err, but i feel you do not want to be taught/learn but only want to teach your error. I for one will not read or respond anymore to your posts....i do not want to be part of any false Gospel, or aid in any way your message. I pray no one will be led astray from reading your words....but plea with you to study your own churches truth and appreciate the clear words of your prophet, and most of all, Allow the holy Spirit to guide you into all truth, The Seventh Day Adventist Church has the truth for these last days, Thank God for it and believe it so you may cross over into the promised land.
You are in my prayers.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/09/02 04:14 AM
James: Do you actually claim to be an Adventist?
I may have missed that declaration somewhere. If not, then please say so, because what I've seen here is pure Dallas Theological Seminary.
Perhaps your time would be better spent "raiding" some church that doesn't claim salvation through the spilt blood of Jesus.
If you have a personal axe against Adventists, the place to resolve that is on your knees, not at your computer. God knows who we are and who you are. Ask Him...and wait for an answer from Him, not Bill Bright, Dr. Ice, Hal Lindsey or anyone else.
Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
I may have missed that declaration somewhere. If not, then please say so, because what I've seen here is pure Dallas Theological Seminary.
Perhaps your time would be better spent "raiding" some church that doesn't claim salvation through the spilt blood of Jesus.
If you have a personal axe against Adventists, the place to resolve that is on your knees, not at your computer. God knows who we are and who you are. Ask Him...and wait for an answer from Him, not Bill Bright, Dr. Ice, Hal Lindsey or anyone else.
Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
Posted By: Edward F Sutton
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/09/02 04:44 AM
(KJV) 1st John Chapter 3: Bible cross-references. (Specific to the idea that in AD 31 the Ten Commandments were done away or no longer apply.)
1 ¶ Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
(What process creates Children of God, out of people who were sinners by choice ?) They come to God when He calls and give themselves to Him & all their choices day by day & follow His teachings.) Matthew ch’s 5-7; 2nd Peter 1:1- 21; Ephesians ch’s 1-2; (Matthew 16:24-26 & Mark 8:34 - 38 & Luke 9:23-26 & Luke 14: 26 - 27, 33 & Luke 6:12 - 49
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
This law that is spoken of is still in effect after Jesus death on Calvary, and His resurrection out of Joseph’s new tomb. For where no law is, there is no knowledge of what to do or not do. The sins are sins of ignorance and not rebellion. The law of ordinances had been removed at 3PM when Jesus died on Calvary, when the Holy Place - Most Holy Place veil was split open by God’s finger. This law is the only law left of the two laws spoken of by Scripture . The Ten Commandments. (See Matt 24:35; Mark 13: 31; Luke 21:33; { The Moon is not gone yet. Psalms 72:1-7 Fearing God requires the Ten Commandments to still be operating - without them there is no definition of fearing God. Without the Ten Commandments the promise of peace has evaporated having lost the condition of it’s fulfilment. See Psalms 119:165 .}
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Did sin cease to be imputed after AD 31 ? See Romans 5:12-14 . If the Ten Commandments are gone so is the imputing of sin. However these texts show a time line of people still being accounted sinners either being redeemed from their sins or warned to flee from their sins after the date of AD 31 (when many suppose the Ten Commandments were done away with.) Jude 1:15; Revelation 1:5; Revelation 18:4; Revelation 18:5 ; Revelation 21:8
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 ¶ For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 ¶ We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. Murders still exist after AD 31. Why would the sin of murder exist after the Commandments forbidding murder be extinct ?
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
Agape has no existence or fulfilment without the Ten Commandment law, for love is the fulfilling of the Ten Commandment Laws. Notice Romans 13:8 & 10 ; Galatians 5:14; James 2:8 .
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1st John ch 3 was written after AD 31, yet John just keeps writing about the Everlasting Gospel & Jesus & The Ten Commandment Law as inseparable . Jesus is the source of the Ten Commandment Law, the I AM that wrote it with His own finger & lived it with His own human flesh & says in Luke 6:46 “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” Without the Ten Commandments one of the conditions Scripture states of abiding in Jesus is gone. Since Jesus wrote the words to the Ten Commandments that were given to Moses (both times) - The Ten Commandments are His (Jesus’s) words.
Heaven & Earth are still here.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
James have you been participating in rites & ceremonies that are not Scriptural? Are you or have you attended occult worship services recently ? You do not sound like you used to sound. Your grasp of the Bible has deteriorated. What has changed in your life to cause this?
1 ¶ Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
(What process creates Children of God, out of people who were sinners by choice ?) They come to God when He calls and give themselves to Him & all their choices day by day & follow His teachings.) Matthew ch’s 5-7; 2nd Peter 1:1- 21; Ephesians ch’s 1-2; (Matthew 16:24-26 & Mark 8:34 - 38 & Luke 9:23-26 & Luke 14: 26 - 27, 33 & Luke 6:12 - 49
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
This law that is spoken of is still in effect after Jesus death on Calvary, and His resurrection out of Joseph’s new tomb. For where no law is, there is no knowledge of what to do or not do. The sins are sins of ignorance and not rebellion. The law of ordinances had been removed at 3PM when Jesus died on Calvary, when the Holy Place - Most Holy Place veil was split open by God’s finger. This law is the only law left of the two laws spoken of by Scripture . The Ten Commandments. (See Matt 24:35; Mark 13: 31; Luke 21:33; { The Moon is not gone yet. Psalms 72:1-7 Fearing God requires the Ten Commandments to still be operating - without them there is no definition of fearing God. Without the Ten Commandments the promise of peace has evaporated having lost the condition of it’s fulfilment. See Psalms 119:165 .}
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Did sin cease to be imputed after AD 31 ? See Romans 5:12-14 . If the Ten Commandments are gone so is the imputing of sin. However these texts show a time line of people still being accounted sinners either being redeemed from their sins or warned to flee from their sins after the date of AD 31 (when many suppose the Ten Commandments were done away with.) Jude 1:15; Revelation 1:5; Revelation 18:4; Revelation 18:5 ; Revelation 21:8
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 ¶ For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 ¶ We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. Murders still exist after AD 31. Why would the sin of murder exist after the Commandments forbidding murder be extinct ?
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
Agape has no existence or fulfilment without the Ten Commandment law, for love is the fulfilling of the Ten Commandment Laws. Notice Romans 13:8 & 10 ; Galatians 5:14; James 2:8 .
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1st John ch 3 was written after AD 31, yet John just keeps writing about the Everlasting Gospel & Jesus & The Ten Commandment Law as inseparable . Jesus is the source of the Ten Commandment Law, the I AM that wrote it with His own finger & lived it with His own human flesh & says in Luke 6:46 “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” Without the Ten Commandments one of the conditions Scripture states of abiding in Jesus is gone. Since Jesus wrote the words to the Ten Commandments that were given to Moses (both times) - The Ten Commandments are His (Jesus’s) words.
Heaven & Earth are still here.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
James have you been participating in rites & ceremonies that are not Scriptural? Are you or have you attended occult worship services recently ? You do not sound like you used to sound. Your grasp of the Bible has deteriorated. What has changed in your life to cause this?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/10/02 02:54 AM
James, as you can see, several people are having a hard time appreciating your way of looking at the law, and the doctrine of faith and works. As for me, I see where you're coming from, but how you get there is easily and understandably misunderstood. It's similar to how Ellen White felt about they way Jones stated things at times. It's very important not to say things in a manner that mislead people.
When you say the law has been abolished because it has been written in our hearts and minds, and that we are, therefore, no longer obligated to obey it, you give the impression that the law is useless. I believe it would be better if you just said something like - Once we die to sin in Christ the law is written in our hearts and minds and then our life will be in harmony with the law.
To say that since the law is now in us it has been abolished is way too confusing. That's like saying to a transplant recepient, Now that you have a new heart it no longer exists. When we receive Jesus into our hearts, does that mean He is abolished? No way! James, please explore new ways to express this very simple concept (law and works). Thank you.
When you say the law has been abolished because it has been written in our hearts and minds, and that we are, therefore, no longer obligated to obey it, you give the impression that the law is useless. I believe it would be better if you just said something like - Once we die to sin in Christ the law is written in our hearts and minds and then our life will be in harmony with the law.
To say that since the law is now in us it has been abolished is way too confusing. That's like saying to a transplant recepient, Now that you have a new heart it no longer exists. When we receive Jesus into our hearts, does that mean He is abolished? No way! James, please explore new ways to express this very simple concept (law and works). Thank you.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/15/02 07:42 AM
Mike.
I understand the feelings of those who reply to me, because what I presented is against what they believe and were accustomed to. But nevertheless I will continue with my “new insight” as Pastor Ikan has phrased it, and appreciate a good counter with Scriptural basic.
You got the point when you said “Once we die to sin in Christ the law is written in our hearts and minds and then our life will be in harmony with the law,” only what is written is not the Ten Commandments but its principle “love that seeks no self”. We experience a new character that is fit for heaven and fulfils the demands of the law.
And if your life is in harmony with the law, do you need the law to keep and obey? If due to your faith you are in Christ and Christ in you to do “his willing and his doing” that fulfils the demands of the principle of heaven, do you still need the law to keep and obey?
Telling people to have faith in Christ meanwhile they must keep and obey the law is just the same as telling people to drive a car and at the same time they must walk on the road. How is it possible? When you have love that seeks no self in your heart as fruit of the Spirit, you are able to love your fellow men, because the love for self was gone. And since love is the fulfillment of the law, it doesn’t make sense if we must keep and obey the law as a standard for righteous life and judgment. Either you take the law, keep and obey it or you live by faith according to the Spirit.
I will continue with my ideas and wait a good counterfeit from your part.
In His love
James S.
I understand the feelings of those who reply to me, because what I presented is against what they believe and were accustomed to. But nevertheless I will continue with my “new insight” as Pastor Ikan has phrased it, and appreciate a good counter with Scriptural basic.
You got the point when you said “Once we die to sin in Christ the law is written in our hearts and minds and then our life will be in harmony with the law,” only what is written is not the Ten Commandments but its principle “love that seeks no self”. We experience a new character that is fit for heaven and fulfils the demands of the law.
And if your life is in harmony with the law, do you need the law to keep and obey? If due to your faith you are in Christ and Christ in you to do “his willing and his doing” that fulfils the demands of the principle of heaven, do you still need the law to keep and obey?
Telling people to have faith in Christ meanwhile they must keep and obey the law is just the same as telling people to drive a car and at the same time they must walk on the road. How is it possible? When you have love that seeks no self in your heart as fruit of the Spirit, you are able to love your fellow men, because the love for self was gone. And since love is the fulfillment of the law, it doesn’t make sense if we must keep and obey the law as a standard for righteous life and judgment. Either you take the law, keep and obey it or you live by faith according to the Spirit.
I will continue with my ideas and wait a good counterfeit from your part.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/15/02 08:19 AM
Edward.
I appreciate your good post and study, a few comments on that.
Quote.
This law that is spoken of is still in effect after Jesus death on Calvary, and His resurrection out of Joseph’s new tomb. For where no law is, there is no knowledge of what to do or not do.
Unquote.
Some of the Gentiles who has not the law knew what to do and what is not, they have the spirit of the law in their heart even they never hear about God and have not the law, but they were led by the Spirit (Romans 2:14-16). So will be Christ believers who were led by the Spirit, because the Spirit will make them to love one another, and love does no harm to our fellow men.
Quote.
Did sin cease to be imputed after AD 31? See Romans 5:12-14. If the Ten Commandments are gone so is the imputing of sin. However these texts show a time line of people still being accounted sinners either being redeemed from their sins or warned to flee from their sins after the date of AD 31 (when many suppose the Ten Commandments were done away with) Jude 1:15; Revelation 1:5; Revelation 18:4; Revelation 18:5; Revelation 21:8
Unquote.
Indeed sins cease to be imputed because the law was no longer in effect as I have presented. What mater now is a change of character to be fit for heaven, what matter now is to be justified by faith, and in a faith relationship with God the law lost it functions. The ministry of the law ended in Christ and replaced with the ministry of the Spirit (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-11). If there is no law, there is no transgression and sin will not be imputed.
God has promised mankind that after “that time” (the cross of Christ), he will wrote the (principle of) the law in men’s heart through the Spirit that was sealed to those who has faith in Christ and that he will remember their sins and iniquity no more (sins is no longer imputed) - Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:26,27; Hebrews 10:15-17.
What is given in Revelation must be applied to those who were under the law for their judgment.
Quote.
James have you been participating in rites & ceremonies that are not Scriptural? Are you or have you attended occult worship services recently ? You do not sound like you used to sound. Your grasp of the Bible has deteriorated. What has changed in your life to cause this?
Unquote.
Compare my ideas with the Scripture, do I sound like what you think?
In His love
James S.
I appreciate your good post and study, a few comments on that.
Quote.
This law that is spoken of is still in effect after Jesus death on Calvary, and His resurrection out of Joseph’s new tomb. For where no law is, there is no knowledge of what to do or not do.
Unquote.
Some of the Gentiles who has not the law knew what to do and what is not, they have the spirit of the law in their heart even they never hear about God and have not the law, but they were led by the Spirit (Romans 2:14-16). So will be Christ believers who were led by the Spirit, because the Spirit will make them to love one another, and love does no harm to our fellow men.
Quote.
Did sin cease to be imputed after AD 31? See Romans 5:12-14. If the Ten Commandments are gone so is the imputing of sin. However these texts show a time line of people still being accounted sinners either being redeemed from their sins or warned to flee from their sins after the date of AD 31 (when many suppose the Ten Commandments were done away with) Jude 1:15; Revelation 1:5; Revelation 18:4; Revelation 18:5; Revelation 21:8
Unquote.
Indeed sins cease to be imputed because the law was no longer in effect as I have presented. What mater now is a change of character to be fit for heaven, what matter now is to be justified by faith, and in a faith relationship with God the law lost it functions. The ministry of the law ended in Christ and replaced with the ministry of the Spirit (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-11). If there is no law, there is no transgression and sin will not be imputed.
God has promised mankind that after “that time” (the cross of Christ), he will wrote the (principle of) the law in men’s heart through the Spirit that was sealed to those who has faith in Christ and that he will remember their sins and iniquity no more (sins is no longer imputed) - Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:26,27; Hebrews 10:15-17.
What is given in Revelation must be applied to those who were under the law for their judgment.
Quote.
James have you been participating in rites & ceremonies that are not Scriptural? Are you or have you attended occult worship services recently ? You do not sound like you used to sound. Your grasp of the Bible has deteriorated. What has changed in your life to cause this?
Unquote.
Compare my ideas with the Scripture, do I sound like what you think?
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/15/02 08:41 AM
“But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons” – Galatians 4:4,5.
Who were “they” and who were “we”?
“Them” here refers to the Jews and “we” here refers to the Gentiles believers.
Thus, the Jews were under the law and the Gentiles not, is that right?
The law was given to Israel through Moses, are there any other people than the Jews who were under the law? And what does under the law means?
“Now we know that what things so ever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law” – Romans 3:19.
“For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law; and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judge by the law. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law…………” – Romans 2:12,13.
Under the law here means under the authority of the law, the Jews has an obligation to keep and obey the law (not only to hear but also to do), the law became their standard for living and judgment. No Gentiles were under the law because it was not given to them and was not means for them.
Christ was born from a woman who was under the law to redeem the Jews who were under the law, that the Gentiles might receive the adoption of son through faith in Jesus Christ.
From what did Christ redeemed the Jews?
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us; for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree; That the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith” – Galatians 3:13,14.
Christ came to redeem the Jews from the curse of the law due to their failure in continually keeping the law and fulfils it spiritual demand.
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under curse; for it is written, cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them” – Galatians 3:10.
Is there any man who did the law perfectly and continually? Yes, there is! We know that Paul claimed himself to be perfect in righteousness required by the law (Philippians 3:16), so did the rich young man (Matthew 19:16-22). Are they not under the curse of the law? Paul said: “for as many as are of the works of the law are under curse”, that means including them. If they were not under curse, they didn’t need Christ redemption, but Paul said; “Christ came to redeem them that were under the law”, and that must include both of them, because they were under the law too.
But if claiming them self perfect in righteousness required by the law didn’t release them from the curse of the law and they still need Christ redemption, what was their perfection means? They were perfect in keeping the letter of the law, a legalistic righteousness, but failed to fulfil the intent of the law; love that seeks no self. Why did they fail? Because their deeds were based on their love for self, a character that is against the intent of the law. They lack the spirit of the law in their heart, they kept the law perfectly but without love for one another, as it is impossible for them who can only love themselves.
And this happens to all men who are under the law, who take the law as a standard for living and judgment. They all were under the curse of the law! “All the world may become guilty before God, therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight” – Romans 3:19,20.
But what is the difference between the Jews and Christ’s believers after the cross that was and is still under the law with the Jews before the cross who were under the law?
The Jews before the cross were redeemed from the curse of the law with Christ death 2000 years ago, but how could it happen with those who were and are under the law since the cross? Christ would not come the second time to die again to redeem them from the curse of the law. He will come again only to pick up his people and take them to heaven.
But life and glory are for those who were and are not under the law, a law that kills and only lead to condemnation by observing it. Because at Christ redemption, the Gentiles that have not the law were all justified from the sin they didn’t commit (sin of self-love in their sinful nature that was passed to them through birth) and got their life too as was the Jews who were under the law. The blessing of Abraham came to them and through faith they received the adoptions of son and the promise of the Holy Spirit through faith.
What happen to those who take the law as an obligation and standard of life and judgment after the cross? They got the curse of the law and Christ can’t redeem them again!
In His love
James S
Who were “they” and who were “we”?
“Them” here refers to the Jews and “we” here refers to the Gentiles believers.
Thus, the Jews were under the law and the Gentiles not, is that right?
The law was given to Israel through Moses, are there any other people than the Jews who were under the law? And what does under the law means?
“Now we know that what things so ever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law” – Romans 3:19.
“For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law; and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judge by the law. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law…………” – Romans 2:12,13.
Under the law here means under the authority of the law, the Jews has an obligation to keep and obey the law (not only to hear but also to do), the law became their standard for living and judgment. No Gentiles were under the law because it was not given to them and was not means for them.
Christ was born from a woman who was under the law to redeem the Jews who were under the law, that the Gentiles might receive the adoption of son through faith in Jesus Christ.
From what did Christ redeemed the Jews?
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us; for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree; That the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith” – Galatians 3:13,14.
Christ came to redeem the Jews from the curse of the law due to their failure in continually keeping the law and fulfils it spiritual demand.
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under curse; for it is written, cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them” – Galatians 3:10.
Is there any man who did the law perfectly and continually? Yes, there is! We know that Paul claimed himself to be perfect in righteousness required by the law (Philippians 3:16), so did the rich young man (Matthew 19:16-22). Are they not under the curse of the law? Paul said: “for as many as are of the works of the law are under curse”, that means including them. If they were not under curse, they didn’t need Christ redemption, but Paul said; “Christ came to redeem them that were under the law”, and that must include both of them, because they were under the law too.
But if claiming them self perfect in righteousness required by the law didn’t release them from the curse of the law and they still need Christ redemption, what was their perfection means? They were perfect in keeping the letter of the law, a legalistic righteousness, but failed to fulfil the intent of the law; love that seeks no self. Why did they fail? Because their deeds were based on their love for self, a character that is against the intent of the law. They lack the spirit of the law in their heart, they kept the law perfectly but without love for one another, as it is impossible for them who can only love themselves.
And this happens to all men who are under the law, who take the law as a standard for living and judgment. They all were under the curse of the law! “All the world may become guilty before God, therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight” – Romans 3:19,20.
But what is the difference between the Jews and Christ’s believers after the cross that was and is still under the law with the Jews before the cross who were under the law?
The Jews before the cross were redeemed from the curse of the law with Christ death 2000 years ago, but how could it happen with those who were and are under the law since the cross? Christ would not come the second time to die again to redeem them from the curse of the law. He will come again only to pick up his people and take them to heaven.
But life and glory are for those who were and are not under the law, a law that kills and only lead to condemnation by observing it. Because at Christ redemption, the Gentiles that have not the law were all justified from the sin they didn’t commit (sin of self-love in their sinful nature that was passed to them through birth) and got their life too as was the Jews who were under the law. The blessing of Abraham came to them and through faith they received the adoptions of son and the promise of the Holy Spirit through faith.
What happen to those who take the law as an obligation and standard of life and judgment after the cross? They got the curse of the law and Christ can’t redeem them again!
In His love
James S
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/15/02 08:53 AM
Do you understand my post above?
Christ came 2000 years ago to redeem those who WERE under the law (only the Jews who has the law). He redeemed them from the curse of the law due to their failure in continually keeping the law and fulfils it spiritual demand “love that seeks no self.”
The Gentiles in the whole world who were not under the law were redeemed too from sin and the wages of sin, the death that came along with sin when sin enter the world through Adam. They were not redeemed from their sins but from their sin. They were not redeemed from the sins they committed, because if there is no law there is no transgression and their sins is not imputed. And the Gentiles have not the law, only the Jews have the law, so, only the Jews who were redeemed from the curse of the law.
The Scripture said: “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law; and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judge by the law” – Romans 2:12.
The Jews were under the law, they committed sins in the law and will be judge and condemned by the law. But Christ has redeemed them from the curse of the law. Does this means all the Jews with no exception including them that crucified Him will enter heaven? No, only those who have faith in the coming Christ pictured in the Law of sin offerings, because justification by faith was also reckoned unto them. They that sinned while being under the law but understood the means of the law given to them and looking forward with faith for the coming Redeemer, they that will be justified. But those who seek righteousness by the law and thought that they can earn it through their obedience will not be justified although they were redeemed from the curse of the law.
There is a way that seems straight, but the end lead to death.
It is the way of the law that only leads to condemnation and death since it was given at Sinai.
But Christ is the way, the truth and the life.
In Him there is life and being in him by faith we have our justification that brought life and Christ in us brings sanctification for fitness to heaven. Justification is our ticket to heaven it is Christ imputed righteousness, a free gift from God based on Christ dead on the cross for the redemption of sin and it wages. Sanctification is our fitness for heaven it is Christ imparted righteousness, based on the work of the Spirit who did “the willing and the doing of God” in Christ believers who lived by faith and after the Spirit. Having both we have our justification by faith.
All men from Adam till the last born in the end of time were born in sin. A sin they never committed as this sin belongs to Adam, but with this sin death came upon all men. Christ came to redeem men from this sin and it wages with his death on the cross to declare that God is just, righteous, abundant in love and mercy.
Christ on the cross has made the score even; “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous” – Romans 5:18,19.
“For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive” – 1 Corinthians 15:21,22.
Christ death on the cross has redeemed men from the sin they never committed and the wages of sin, the dead that they don’t deserve. Christ death has redeemed men from the first death as this death is not their choice and they don’t deserve it. Death now becomes a sleep, before of men it is a real death but for God it is just a sleep. As the result of Christ redemption all men has their life back and their new life is hidden in Christ that dwells in heavenly realm (Ephesians 2:5,6). Their body might die, buried and forgotten, but their new life is in Christ till the time to return it to them.
Those who are justified by their faith will be resurrected from their sleep and put on their new life, but those who are not justified will wait a little longer. And when the time come to awake them from their sleep, they got their second life, but because during their first life they were not in Christ and didn’t have faith in him and live for self, they deserve the second death as the wages of their own sin in spite Christ had redeemed them from Adam’s sin and it wages. They die again eternally because there is no place in heaven and the New World for sinners. There is no place in heaven and the New World for those who lived in sin, who lived for self, who lived for the flesh.
Death as the wages of sin is always the penalty for those who love them self, because this is the real “sin” as it is against the love of God that seeks no self. The love for self is the sin that transgressed the principle of heaven; that is against the nature of God; his agape love, a kind of love that has no self in it.
They deserve this eternal death because of their unbelief, they didn’t believe in the name of Jesus Christ. There are many also that although claim themselves to be Christ believers, but because they didn’t believe his Gospel; they didn’t believe that a life led by the Spirit through faith is all what Christ asked from them; and has taken the law again that lead to condemnation and death as a standard of judgment and righteousness instead of being in Him as their way of life; by this they have shown their unbelief and continue living in sin because whatever is not of faith is sin.
Where do you belong? Are you looking for the way of life or the way of death? Do you live by faith or by the law? Beware, the time is near, judgment is always based on deeds, and only those who has the deeds of the Spirit or fruit of the Spirit that will passed God’s judgment.
In His love
James S.
Christ came 2000 years ago to redeem those who WERE under the law (only the Jews who has the law). He redeemed them from the curse of the law due to their failure in continually keeping the law and fulfils it spiritual demand “love that seeks no self.”
The Gentiles in the whole world who were not under the law were redeemed too from sin and the wages of sin, the death that came along with sin when sin enter the world through Adam. They were not redeemed from their sins but from their sin. They were not redeemed from the sins they committed, because if there is no law there is no transgression and their sins is not imputed. And the Gentiles have not the law, only the Jews have the law, so, only the Jews who were redeemed from the curse of the law.
The Scripture said: “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law; and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judge by the law” – Romans 2:12.
The Jews were under the law, they committed sins in the law and will be judge and condemned by the law. But Christ has redeemed them from the curse of the law. Does this means all the Jews with no exception including them that crucified Him will enter heaven? No, only those who have faith in the coming Christ pictured in the Law of sin offerings, because justification by faith was also reckoned unto them. They that sinned while being under the law but understood the means of the law given to them and looking forward with faith for the coming Redeemer, they that will be justified. But those who seek righteousness by the law and thought that they can earn it through their obedience will not be justified although they were redeemed from the curse of the law.
There is a way that seems straight, but the end lead to death.
It is the way of the law that only leads to condemnation and death since it was given at Sinai.
But Christ is the way, the truth and the life.
In Him there is life and being in him by faith we have our justification that brought life and Christ in us brings sanctification for fitness to heaven. Justification is our ticket to heaven it is Christ imputed righteousness, a free gift from God based on Christ dead on the cross for the redemption of sin and it wages. Sanctification is our fitness for heaven it is Christ imparted righteousness, based on the work of the Spirit who did “the willing and the doing of God” in Christ believers who lived by faith and after the Spirit. Having both we have our justification by faith.
All men from Adam till the last born in the end of time were born in sin. A sin they never committed as this sin belongs to Adam, but with this sin death came upon all men. Christ came to redeem men from this sin and it wages with his death on the cross to declare that God is just, righteous, abundant in love and mercy.
Christ on the cross has made the score even; “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous” – Romans 5:18,19.
“For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive” – 1 Corinthians 15:21,22.
Christ death on the cross has redeemed men from the sin they never committed and the wages of sin, the dead that they don’t deserve. Christ death has redeemed men from the first death as this death is not their choice and they don’t deserve it. Death now becomes a sleep, before of men it is a real death but for God it is just a sleep. As the result of Christ redemption all men has their life back and their new life is hidden in Christ that dwells in heavenly realm (Ephesians 2:5,6). Their body might die, buried and forgotten, but their new life is in Christ till the time to return it to them.
Those who are justified by their faith will be resurrected from their sleep and put on their new life, but those who are not justified will wait a little longer. And when the time come to awake them from their sleep, they got their second life, but because during their first life they were not in Christ and didn’t have faith in him and live for self, they deserve the second death as the wages of their own sin in spite Christ had redeemed them from Adam’s sin and it wages. They die again eternally because there is no place in heaven and the New World for sinners. There is no place in heaven and the New World for those who lived in sin, who lived for self, who lived for the flesh.
Death as the wages of sin is always the penalty for those who love them self, because this is the real “sin” as it is against the love of God that seeks no self. The love for self is the sin that transgressed the principle of heaven; that is against the nature of God; his agape love, a kind of love that has no self in it.
They deserve this eternal death because of their unbelief, they didn’t believe in the name of Jesus Christ. There are many also that although claim themselves to be Christ believers, but because they didn’t believe his Gospel; they didn’t believe that a life led by the Spirit through faith is all what Christ asked from them; and has taken the law again that lead to condemnation and death as a standard of judgment and righteousness instead of being in Him as their way of life; by this they have shown their unbelief and continue living in sin because whatever is not of faith is sin.
Where do you belong? Are you looking for the way of life or the way of death? Do you live by faith or by the law? Beware, the time is near, judgment is always based on deeds, and only those who has the deeds of the Spirit or fruit of the Spirit that will passed God’s judgment.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/16/02 02:27 AM
James:Well, I will make one more attempt. Since you have a Dutch surname, I'll try Dutch first.
Vriend James,
Ik ben bang dat jouw Engels voor mij te verwarrend is om je te beantwoorden of opmerkingen te geven. Je spreekt jezelf constant tegen. Anderen op dit forum begrijpen er ook weinig meer van. Misschien is het beter als je jouw ideeën vertelt aan een groep mensen die jouw taal wel kunnen spreken.
Now English:
Friend John: I am afraid your English is much too confusing for me to answer this or future remarks. You contradict yourself constantly. It certainly has left others on this forum quite confused too. Perhaps you should consider giving your ideas to a group in your native language.
Vriend James,
Ik ben bang dat jouw Engels voor mij te verwarrend is om je te beantwoorden of opmerkingen te geven. Je spreekt jezelf constant tegen. Anderen op dit forum begrijpen er ook weinig meer van. Misschien is het beter als je jouw ideeën vertelt aan een groep mensen die jouw taal wel kunnen spreken.
Now English:
Friend John: I am afraid your English is much too confusing for me to answer this or future remarks. You contradict yourself constantly. It certainly has left others on this forum quite confused too. Perhaps you should consider giving your ideas to a group in your native language.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/17/02 02:46 PM
Broer Ikan.
Uw spreekt Hollands ook? That is leuk, maar Engels is beeter voor mij.
Brother Ikan.
You speak Dutch? That is great, but I prefer English.
I think I didn’t present any contradiction, but if you found it could you please tell me? I am afraid that in the concept of obedience to the law for those who believe we will find many contradictions.
And I think it will be better if you could give me a counter with Scriptural basis rather then just commenting your opinion, so I will learn something too.
In His love
James S.
Uw spreekt Hollands ook? That is leuk, maar Engels is beeter voor mij.
Brother Ikan.
You speak Dutch? That is great, but I prefer English.
I think I didn’t present any contradiction, but if you found it could you please tell me? I am afraid that in the concept of obedience to the law for those who believe we will find many contradictions.
And I think it will be better if you could give me a counter with Scriptural basis rather then just commenting your opinion, so I will learn something too.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/22/02 08:24 AM
Many say that they keep the law not for seeking righteousness, because they knew that righteous-ness comes by faith.
But this idea contradicts the Scripture! The law was given to justify men who could keep the law continually and perfectly for a reward of eternal life. So, if you say you keep and obey the law not for righteousness, then you contradict the purpose of the law? If you believe righteousness is not from the law then why do you keep it?
Or maybe because you think God has commanded you to keep the law? If so is the case, then I would say God is out of his mind! Why should he command us to keep a law that could not justify us due to our failure in keeping and obeying it continually and perfectly that fulfils the righteous demands of the law? Why should he command us to keep and obey a law that could never justify us, on the contrary what the law could do is only condemn us with death sentence despite the fact that Christ had justified all men and made them alive? And what is more important why should he command us to keep a law that could never justify us while there is a justification that we could earn through faith in Christ?
Once the law was in effect for the Jews before Christ, because it was God purpose to introduce Christ to men through the law that was a must to keep and obey. But that was before Christ death on the cross that justifies all men and gives their life back. “The law was put in charge to lead people to Christ that they might be justified by faith. Since faith has come, men are no longer under the supervision of the law” – Galatians 3:24,25.
Is that not very clear and easy to understand? When we have faith in Christ, we didn’t need the law any longer to supervise our life.
Which law was the law that supervise man? Was it the sacrificial Law? No, it was the law that introduce Christ! Was it the law of the Ten Commandments? Yes, it was. Because this “do not kill, do not steal, do not commit adultery etc.” supervise men to live righteously.
So, if you believe that the law of Sacrificial was ended at Christ’s cross and the Ten Commandments goes on forever, are you not under supervision of the law? If so is the case, are you not contradicting the Scripture that said the law was no longer our supervisor as now we have faith in Christ.
Why the Ten Commandments was ended also at the cross? Because even it seems supervising men to live righteously but in fact the law could only condemns men with death sentence for their failure to get a justification by the law through their obedience. But God has made known his righteousness without the law, a righteousness that comes through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:21,22) to replace the former way that supervised men to live righteously but failed to justify men for their righteousness.
Only through faith in Christ men will have his justification, and only through the Spirit men will have a Supervisor that will lead his life to all righteousness and holy life. There is no more place for the law in a faith relationship with Christ, it has no functions, just a shadow that fades away when it met Christ, the Body.
“The law is not of faith” – that also means, when you keep the law, you have no faith and when you have faith you didn’t need the law.
“And whatever is not of faith, is sin”, that means; if you keep the law you are under the supervision of the law but meanwhile you sinned because of your unbelief that Christ through His Spirit will supervise your life to all righteousness and holy life.
Take my advice, start having faith in him and live by the Spirit.
The Ten Commandments was over 2000 years ago at the cross of Golgotha.
In His love
James S.
But this idea contradicts the Scripture! The law was given to justify men who could keep the law continually and perfectly for a reward of eternal life. So, if you say you keep and obey the law not for righteousness, then you contradict the purpose of the law? If you believe righteousness is not from the law then why do you keep it?
Or maybe because you think God has commanded you to keep the law? If so is the case, then I would say God is out of his mind! Why should he command us to keep a law that could not justify us due to our failure in keeping and obeying it continually and perfectly that fulfils the righteous demands of the law? Why should he command us to keep and obey a law that could never justify us, on the contrary what the law could do is only condemn us with death sentence despite the fact that Christ had justified all men and made them alive? And what is more important why should he command us to keep a law that could never justify us while there is a justification that we could earn through faith in Christ?
Once the law was in effect for the Jews before Christ, because it was God purpose to introduce Christ to men through the law that was a must to keep and obey. But that was before Christ death on the cross that justifies all men and gives their life back. “The law was put in charge to lead people to Christ that they might be justified by faith. Since faith has come, men are no longer under the supervision of the law” – Galatians 3:24,25.
Is that not very clear and easy to understand? When we have faith in Christ, we didn’t need the law any longer to supervise our life.
Which law was the law that supervise man? Was it the sacrificial Law? No, it was the law that introduce Christ! Was it the law of the Ten Commandments? Yes, it was. Because this “do not kill, do not steal, do not commit adultery etc.” supervise men to live righteously.
So, if you believe that the law of Sacrificial was ended at Christ’s cross and the Ten Commandments goes on forever, are you not under supervision of the law? If so is the case, are you not contradicting the Scripture that said the law was no longer our supervisor as now we have faith in Christ.
Why the Ten Commandments was ended also at the cross? Because even it seems supervising men to live righteously but in fact the law could only condemns men with death sentence for their failure to get a justification by the law through their obedience. But God has made known his righteousness without the law, a righteousness that comes through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:21,22) to replace the former way that supervised men to live righteously but failed to justify men for their righteousness.
Only through faith in Christ men will have his justification, and only through the Spirit men will have a Supervisor that will lead his life to all righteousness and holy life. There is no more place for the law in a faith relationship with Christ, it has no functions, just a shadow that fades away when it met Christ, the Body.
“The law is not of faith” – that also means, when you keep the law, you have no faith and when you have faith you didn’t need the law.
“And whatever is not of faith, is sin”, that means; if you keep the law you are under the supervision of the law but meanwhile you sinned because of your unbelief that Christ through His Spirit will supervise your life to all righteousness and holy life.
Take my advice, start having faith in him and live by the Spirit.
The Ten Commandments was over 2000 years ago at the cross of Golgotha.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/22/02 09:09 AM
Salah berfatwa? Tidak pernah!
[ June 22, 2002, 03:18 AM: Message edited by: Ikan ]
[ June 22, 2002, 03:18 AM: Message edited by: Ikan ]
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/22/02 05:07 PM
It is great that there are those who know more than one language but in the forums we must use English so others can understand...if private then please send an email to those who speak this language. Thanks
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/22/02 05:30 PM
The teaching that the Law still exists, binding upon all Christians and required their obedience has no Scriptural basic. When Paul said that the law was nailed to the cross, ended in Christ, only until John, no longer a Christian’s guide and tutor for a righteous living, he never means as only the Sacrificial law that was over. He spoke about the law, the Torah given at Sinai to Moses that includes the Ten Commandments. Only men who think differently and teach something that Paul and the other apostles never taught.
Why is the law no longer needed in a faith relationship with God?
Because the purpose of the law was only leading its law keepers to Christ. Is only the Sacrificial Law that leads to Christ? No! This law only introduce Christ the real sin redeemer pictured in the law by those animals for sin offerings. Is the Ten Commandments the law that leads to Christ? No! This law expose our sin, condemned us with death.
But if we combine both laws, we will have the law that leads to Christ. By the Ten Commandments law keepers were condemned to death as the wages of their sins and through the Sacrificial law, law keepers were introduced to their real sin redeemer and savior.
Thus, if the law that leads to Christ; “the schoolmaster” was over because now we have faith in Christ according to Galatians 3:23-25, then it was over, the sacrificial law, then ten Commandments, the tithe, the Sabbath, the law of clean and unclean meats, all what is written in the Torah was over.
There is no more law that stands to judge people and condemn them for their failure in keeping it, there is no more law that stands as a standard for living righteously and requires its law keeper to keep and obey it. The law was only for the Jews till John time (Christ death on the cross) and not for men after the cross.
Teaching the sacrificial law was over but the Ten Commandments and the law of clean and unclean meats still exist and bindings is circumcising the Gospel of Christ and leading people away from Christ.
If men must now live by faith and according to the Spirit to be justified by their faith, men didn’t need any law not because if there is no law he is free to live for the flesh (to live in sin) without judgment and will go to heaven, but because his deeds already conforms the principle of the law, already in harmony with the law, already covers the law demands in righteousness. This deeds does not come from his effort as it is impossible for a self-loving men to do the deeds of love to his fellow men, but comes from the Spirit that does “the willing and the doing of God” in him. This “love for our fellow men” is “fruits” of the Spirit, not the deeds of the flesh.
That was the whole point of the Gospel of Christ as preached in Pauline epistle.
And why the law must come to an end and no longer has the authority upon men for obedience and judgment? Because, if it does not come to an end, the law will only expose our sin, judging us and condemn us with death despite the fact that Christ has saved us and gives our life back with his death on the cross. This is a very important matter that is very hard to understand, but it is real and true.
If Christ can made us that have faith in him to have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in us through the work of the Spirit, then why should he ask us to keep and obey his law considering the fact that no one could keep and obey the law continually and perfectly, where one transgression (as what Adam did) is enough to put him under death penalty. It doesn’t make sense if he asked and commanded us to keep and obey the law? Meanwhile keeping the law will not save us and justify us because justification is based on faith in him, so why would Christ command us to keep it? Is he out of his mind?
The law was given to justify men (the Jews) for reward of eternal life, but the fact no one is justified by the law means all law keepers were found guilty and put under condemnation. But God gave us a way out of this problem; by his grace he justify all men through Christ redemption, a justification that gives life for all men, which is our ticket to heaven. But life goes on, so, men must seek the righteousness of God that comes from faith in Christ, a justification by faith that is our fitness for heaven. If God could not justify us by faith that means we have no faith in Christ and we must die the second death as the wages of our sin (whatever is not of faith is sin). We could not enter heaven and live there because we are not FIT for heaven as our character does not conforms to the principle of heaven. Why not? Because our character didn’t change and we still are a self-loving people, a character that is against the love of God. We may only have God’s love if we live by faith according to the Spirit since this love is fruit of the Spirit.
The Scripture said that God grace justify all men in Christ and gives them a second life as their ticket to heaven in order men might seek His righteousness that comes through faith in Christ to be fit for heaven. And the Law (Torah) was the instrument to lead people to Christ, once in Christ by faith we didn’t need the law any longer, not only because it has served it purposed but also it has lost it meanings and functions. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to all who believe, a righteousness that comes by faith in Christ to replace the old way of the letter, righteousness required by the law in return for life.
It will never end when we talk about the law as Paul could not stopped to explain the Gentiles believers that the law has no more authority over Christ believers. You will find this in all of his epistles.
In His love
James S.
Why is the law no longer needed in a faith relationship with God?
Because the purpose of the law was only leading its law keepers to Christ. Is only the Sacrificial Law that leads to Christ? No! This law only introduce Christ the real sin redeemer pictured in the law by those animals for sin offerings. Is the Ten Commandments the law that leads to Christ? No! This law expose our sin, condemned us with death.
But if we combine both laws, we will have the law that leads to Christ. By the Ten Commandments law keepers were condemned to death as the wages of their sins and through the Sacrificial law, law keepers were introduced to their real sin redeemer and savior.
Thus, if the law that leads to Christ; “the schoolmaster” was over because now we have faith in Christ according to Galatians 3:23-25, then it was over, the sacrificial law, then ten Commandments, the tithe, the Sabbath, the law of clean and unclean meats, all what is written in the Torah was over.
There is no more law that stands to judge people and condemn them for their failure in keeping it, there is no more law that stands as a standard for living righteously and requires its law keeper to keep and obey it. The law was only for the Jews till John time (Christ death on the cross) and not for men after the cross.
Teaching the sacrificial law was over but the Ten Commandments and the law of clean and unclean meats still exist and bindings is circumcising the Gospel of Christ and leading people away from Christ.
If men must now live by faith and according to the Spirit to be justified by their faith, men didn’t need any law not because if there is no law he is free to live for the flesh (to live in sin) without judgment and will go to heaven, but because his deeds already conforms the principle of the law, already in harmony with the law, already covers the law demands in righteousness. This deeds does not come from his effort as it is impossible for a self-loving men to do the deeds of love to his fellow men, but comes from the Spirit that does “the willing and the doing of God” in him. This “love for our fellow men” is “fruits” of the Spirit, not the deeds of the flesh.
That was the whole point of the Gospel of Christ as preached in Pauline epistle.
And why the law must come to an end and no longer has the authority upon men for obedience and judgment? Because, if it does not come to an end, the law will only expose our sin, judging us and condemn us with death despite the fact that Christ has saved us and gives our life back with his death on the cross. This is a very important matter that is very hard to understand, but it is real and true.
If Christ can made us that have faith in him to have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in us through the work of the Spirit, then why should he ask us to keep and obey his law considering the fact that no one could keep and obey the law continually and perfectly, where one transgression (as what Adam did) is enough to put him under death penalty. It doesn’t make sense if he asked and commanded us to keep and obey the law? Meanwhile keeping the law will not save us and justify us because justification is based on faith in him, so why would Christ command us to keep it? Is he out of his mind?
The law was given to justify men (the Jews) for reward of eternal life, but the fact no one is justified by the law means all law keepers were found guilty and put under condemnation. But God gave us a way out of this problem; by his grace he justify all men through Christ redemption, a justification that gives life for all men, which is our ticket to heaven. But life goes on, so, men must seek the righteousness of God that comes from faith in Christ, a justification by faith that is our fitness for heaven. If God could not justify us by faith that means we have no faith in Christ and we must die the second death as the wages of our sin (whatever is not of faith is sin). We could not enter heaven and live there because we are not FIT for heaven as our character does not conforms to the principle of heaven. Why not? Because our character didn’t change and we still are a self-loving people, a character that is against the love of God. We may only have God’s love if we live by faith according to the Spirit since this love is fruit of the Spirit.
The Scripture said that God grace justify all men in Christ and gives them a second life as their ticket to heaven in order men might seek His righteousness that comes through faith in Christ to be fit for heaven. And the Law (Torah) was the instrument to lead people to Christ, once in Christ by faith we didn’t need the law any longer, not only because it has served it purposed but also it has lost it meanings and functions. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to all who believe, a righteousness that comes by faith in Christ to replace the old way of the letter, righteousness required by the law in return for life.
It will never end when we talk about the law as Paul could not stopped to explain the Gentiles believers that the law has no more authority over Christ believers. You will find this in all of his epistles.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/22/02 07:18 PM
James, I must go on record that I strongly disagree with you insisting that the law ended at the cross. Jesus writes the law in our hearts and minds when we're born again. To say it ended is telling a lie.
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/23/02 01:04 AM
"Praise God form whom all blessings flow."
God Bless you Mike
God Bless you Mike
Posted By: Ikan
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/23/02 01:18 AM
English from Bahasa Indonesia translation to James request to debate him :
"Over bad religious teachings? No, never."
"Over bad religious teachings? No, never."
Posted By: Daryl
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/23/02 01:29 AM
I agree.
Once truth has been studied, proclaimed, and rejected, there is no further sense in debate unless the person is still open and searching for the truth which this particular forum is all about.
Once truth has been studied, proclaimed, and rejected, there is no further sense in debate unless the person is still open and searching for the truth which this particular forum is all about.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/23/02 01:44 AM
"Are the Scriptures vague and inconsistent? Is there any foundation for the conflicting opinions and various sentiments and doctrines that find credence in the religious world? If so, then we may entertain doubts of their divine origin, for it is not the inspiration of God that leads people to come to diverse opinions. Those who undertake to interpret the Bible, have corrupted the Word of God and wrested the Scripture from its true meaning, by seeking to harmonize the truth of God with the inventions and doctrines of men. The Scriptures are perverted and misapplied, and the gems of truth are set in the framework of error. These teachers are blinded, and cannot clearly discern what is the true meaning of the Scriptures". . . . {TDG 164.2}
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/23/02 02:30 AM
Ikan thank you for the translation. And again for your posting the truth.
Mike I agree with you.
Mike I agree with you.
Posted By: Avalee
Re: The Ten Commandments - 06/23/02 04:01 AM
First of all I would like to say a special thank you to all of those you have posted on this thread. James has presented some ideas that he believes to be true, which most of us do not agree with according to the Bible and the Spirit Of Prophecy. I must admit he has given us alot to study and I believe you did not fail but proved to be good Bible students, just like the Bereans.
[ June 22, 2002, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: Avalee ]
quote:I am closing this post as it seems to me and others that all has been said here that can be said, and we just keep going over and over the same thing. James I am praying for you that you will keep studying and be more open to the studies that have been presented to you on this forum.
Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Faith and Works
Obedience and Sanctification
Page 86
When errors arise and are taught as Bible truth, those who have a connection with Christ will not trust to what the minister says, but like the noble Bereans, they will search the Scriptures daily to see if these things are so. When they discover what is the word of the Lord, they will take their stand on the side of the truth. They will hear the voice of the True Shepherd saying, "This is the way, walk ye in it." Thus you
will be educated to make the Bible the man of your counsel, and the voice of a stranger you will neither hear nor follow.
[ June 22, 2002, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: Avalee ]