Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin?

Posted By: Daryl

Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 11/26/02 05:10 PM

I took this quote from another topic and wish to pursue this quote and thought here:

quote:

God was ready for the 'if man should sin', but he did not foresee that the 'if' will happen.

To me the above quote limits God, and I don't believe nothing is impossible for God which includes His foreknowledge or knowing what will happen in the future, otherwise, prophecy (fulfilled and not yet fulfilled couldn't exist.

What do you think?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 11/27/02 01:26 AM

How about this as an example of the foreknowledge of God, or in this case, Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

quote:

Mark 11:1 And when they came nigh to Jerusalem, unto Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount of Olives, he sendeth forth two of his disciples,
2 And saith unto them, Go your way into the village over against you: and as soon as ye be entered into it, ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring him.
3 And if any man say unto you, Why do ye this? say ye that the Lord hath need of him; and straightway he will send him hither.
4 And they went their way, and found the colt tied by the door without in a place where two ways met; and they loose him.
5 And certain of them that stood there said unto them, What do ye, loosing the colt?
6 And they said unto them even as Jesus had commanded: and they let them go.

It is obvious to me that the Lord knew that the colt would be tied up there before it happened.

I am sure we can find others like this that shows the foreknowledge of God.

Isn't that what prophecy is also all about?

How could God know about the rise and fall of nations as he did relating to the dream of Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 2 unless it had to do with His foreknowledge of these things happening well before they ever happened from Babylon to Rome and beyond, even to our day and beyond that?

[ November 26, 2002, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 11/27/02 05:49 AM

I agree with your observations, Daryl. I believe eternity is like watching a rerun for God. Knowing everything single detail in advance makes life very fun for God. He gets to enjoy it twice.

Posted By: DenBorg

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 11/27/02 11:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
I agree with your observations, Daryl. I believe eternity is like watching a rerun for God. Knowing everything single detail in advance makes life very fun for God. He gets to enjoy it twice.

I never thought about it quite like that before, that God gets to enjoy it twice. [Smile]

Posted By: Gregory

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 11/27/02 11:37 PM

If you are up to some heavy thinking, read THE OPENESS OF GOD, and I beleive that Richard Rice wrote it.

NOTE: My mention is not to be deemed agreement.

That book presents an altelrnate view.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 04/26/03 10:50 PM

Greetings

The concepts that have been presented here form an abstract knowledge of one form or another

Prophesy is not intended to tell us that God knows the future of the choices and actions of his creation as some skit or story read, that will be played out; nor that such type of foreknowledge is what ascertains that sin will rise no more. The scripture tells us:

to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men,

Prophesy is based and intended to reveal that God has mastery (rules) in the kingdom of men

Abstract Foreknowledge
One way people think (usually the more scholarly ones) that God knows everything is that since God created everything including something called 'time', that therefore he is outside of the realm of 'time', another dimension. This sounds reasonable. Being outside the realm of time, he therefore is not subject to it, and hence yesterday, tomorrow, and today is all the same and he can see it all as in a panorama. In a real sense however that would mean that for God everything is always happening and nothing ever happened, because he is outside time. Hence for God there never was a time when there was no sin, and there never will be a time when there is no sin for it is all always there. Further comments should not be necessary

Another deviation of that is the view that time is the travel of the speed of light. Theoretically if you travel faster than the speed of light you go back in time. This however breaks down because light can only reflect that which has transpired and therefore can never show that which has not happened.

Others still simply do not think about it or try to understand it, so they just simply accept that he knows, and because they do not understand it, it is abstract for them. To them it is perhaps something like a crystal ball or book read or movie seen or some other means whereby God knows.

Observation
One observation that I would like to put forth is this: The very argument used at any time to defend the ability of God to foreknow in an abstract sense destroys his ability to be able to do anything about it. For the very fact that God has 'seen what will happen' in one of these abstract senses, means that He cannot do anything about it. If he were to do something about it to change it, than his sense would have been wrong.

The question then:

Is God able to know the future and also at the same time be able to alter it according to his will, to accomplish his purpose and end? If so then God's foreknowledge is not abstract but based on understanding.

Second question is:

What abilities and powers has he given to his creation and how this interplays with his purposes? This also establishes our responsibility and accountability.

Knowledge based on understanding
God's foreknowledge is not abstract but it is based on understanding. It ought to be needless to say that his knowledge is complete in all science and physics, as he is the creator of it. His knowledge is result of complete understanding of his creation, the abilities he has given them and the responsibilities he requires of them, and the means of accomplishing them.

He also knows what he purposes and is able to bring it to pass.

Shalom

[ April 26, 2003, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 04/27/03 06:47 AM

Daryl,

Why does it bother you that there may be limits to God's abilities? It seems that attributing to Him abilities which He does not possess, or at least does not claim, would be a far more troublesome concept.

He does not claim to be omniscient, for instance, nor omnipotent. These are attributes which humans have placed on Him. And omnipresence is clearly a fable. God has been seen walking in a garden and in an oven, sitting in a chair, flying an airplane and a helicopter, wrestling with a man, and eating food (flesh food at that!). As for foreknowledge, virtually all prophecy consists of declarations of that which He is going to do. The rest is clearly conditional. As for the colt in the above story, we sometimes forget that Jesus was in constant contact with the angels who could easily inform Him where to find the colt (or even tie up a colt where Jesus said it would be).

On the other hand, there is the question of who originated sin. It seems obvious that if God knew in advance which being would rebel against Him or which planet would be trapped in sin but God created that being or that planet anyhow, then God must be charged with originating sin. I find it impossible in my soul to accept that charge.

Also, I find no physical or philosophical reason to believe that God is outside of time. I am aware that modern physics has postulated some strange ideas about the nature of time, but so far, none of it has been proven. Physical objects may age more rapidly in some conditions than others, but that does not necessarily mean time itself can be modified.

When considering the attributes of God, there is one point which should be made. We have three sources of information. One, that which God claims about Himself. Two, things which people have observed God doing. And three, things which people say about God. Most of the "impossible" concepts people have developed about God's abilities come from that third source, some Biblical, some non-Biblical things people say about God. If we limit our concepts to that which God says about Himself and that which He has been observed doing, a much different picture emerges which, to me, is much easier to believe. No longer do we have to feel that if Superman can do it, or if Wonder Woman can do it, or if Santa Claus can do it, or if Dr. Who can do it, God must be able to do it too.

Bob Lee

Posted By: Donovan Wallace

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 04/27/03 07:55 AM

Sometime ago it occurred to me that the statement "Let us make man in our image" is probably not well understood. Does this only refer to man's physical aspects? The very fact that we are each held responsible for our faith and actions means that God has given each one a key attribute that He possess i.e. the power of choice and the ability to affect an outcome with eternal consequences.

If God is merely watching some skit being played out then do we really have free choice? The idea of precise foreknowledge contradicts the whole theme of the "great controversy".

Scientist sometimes use the concepts of determinism and convergence to describe the behaviour of complex systems. In nature many things are not deterministic i.e. one cannot "precisely" predict how something will unfold step by step. But an astute observer who understands the principles of nature can acurately predict the convergence or outcome of a system.

Being the creator, God certainly understands all the principles and exactly where our actions will lead us but he gave us true freedom of choice.

If I know precisely that in a few days my young son will find the nearest metal implement and insert it into an AC wall plug electrocuting himself, I am guilty of manslaughter if I don't prevent it.

I must agree with Boblee on this one. Our beliefs and concepts of God should be limited to what is clearly revealed. Everything else is hearsay.

dw

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 04/28/03 06:23 AM

I thought it was a given and unquestionable fact about the foreknowledge of God as proven by all the prophetic utterances of all of His prophets.

Seeing that there is some question here about God's foreknowledge, I think we had better do a Bible study on that to see whether or not God is able to know precisely what will happen before it actually happens.

Let the Bible study on this begin, or continue. [Smile]

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 04/28/03 06:47 AM

Didn't God foreknow that Christ would be betrayed by one of His own disciples even specifically including the betrayal for thirty pieces of silver?

quote:

THE PROPHECY:
Zechariah 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

Psalms 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

THE FULFILLMENT:
Matthew 26:14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.

This prophecy was fulfilled as specifically as it was predicted with only one exception which is that the prophecy did not name the betrayer by name.

I am sure there are other texts out there that will prove the foreknowledge of God, for to say otherwise limits God of whom nothing is impossible for Him except those things which He already stated He would never do.

Posted By: StanMcCluskey

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 04/28/03 05:01 AM

quote:
I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure." Isaiah 46:9-10 nkjv

It's clear to me that God does know "the end from the beginning." All the "ifs" are based on the choices of His created beings; but God knows in advance what those choices will be.

Stan

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 04/28/03 06:35 AM

Thank you Stan for the nice quote

quote:

I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure." Isaiah 46:9-10 nkjv

This is not a book read or a movie seen and a rerun in 'reality'. This is not abstract foreknowledge. This is his counsel and his pleasure that he does accomplish.

There is no question that God does know what he purposes and he does know how to accomplish it, and there is none that can hinder him. The question is whether our understanding of his foreknowledge is real, or whether it has created impossibility for the above scripture to be true.

If his foreknowledge is an abstract absolute type as has been proposed by Mike, then God himself is unable to accomplish his counsel or his pleasure. Then he is simply an observer. Or did he 'read' about himself as it were in the book also? What about the times he repented himself? Did he foreknow 'read about that' too ahead of time? What does that make of his repentance?

Is God in control, or simply an observer, and/or an unwilling/willing participant in some grand design in which he himself cannot help himself?

The original questions:

Is God able to know the future and also at the same time be able to alter it according to his will, to accomplish his purpose and end? If so then God's foreknowledge is not abstract but based on understanding.

What abilities and powers has he given to his creation and how does this interplay with his purposes? This also establishes our responsibility and accountability.

Shalom

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 04/28/03 06:38 AM

Daryl,

I read the whole eleventh chapter of Zachariah and saw nothing that would even remotely indicate that verse 9 was a prophecy about Jesus. I also read Psalm 41 and again saw no indication that David was speaking about anyone but himself. It gets worse.

I also read the tenth chapter of Zachariah. In it there a number of prophecies which have never been fulfilled nor ever will be. Somehow when we think of foreknowledge in connection with God, we overlook all the unfulfilled prophecies. We also overlook the problem He had getting His seventy year prophecy fulfilled in Daniel's day (Daniel 10).

Stan,

Permit me to point out that the text you quoted (Isa 46:9-10) says what I was suggesting in a previous post. God is telling us what He is going to do, not what anyone else will do. Specifically, he is telling us what Daryl was quoting at the beginning of this thread: "God was ready for the 'if man should sin'." In other words, God knew how He would handle the sin problem if it ever came up. There is nothing in this verse to indicate that God knew any of the details between the beginning and the end.

Bob Lee

Posted By: StanMcCluskey

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 04/28/03 10:02 AM

Bob Lee wrote:

quote:
Permit me to point out that the text you quoted (Isa 46:9-10) says what I was suggesting in a previous post. God is telling us what He is going to do, not what anyone else will do....There is nothing in this verse to indicate that God knew any of the details between the beginning and the end.

In response, I submit the following as just a small sample of texts available to show that God does indeed know the "details" BEFORE they happen. Emphasis here is on the actions of Judas Iscariot, and I've used the NKJV:

quote:
Acts 15
18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works.

Hebrews 4
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Matthew 9
4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?

John 2
23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did.
24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men,
25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.

John 6
64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew FROM THE BEGINNING who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

John 6
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

Luke 22
21 But behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table.
22 And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!"

Psalm 41
9 Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me. (NOTICE THE DETAIL HERE, AND COMPARE WITH CHRIST'S OWN STATEMENT BELOW).

John 13
18 "I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'
19 "Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He."
21 When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me."
22 Then the disciples looked at one another, perplexed about whom He spoke.
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24 Simon Peter therefore motioned to him to ask who it was of whom He spoke.
25 Then, leaning back on Jesus' breast, he said to Him, "Lord, who is it?"
26 Jesus answered, "It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it." And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

John 18
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him,...

Psalm 139
2 You know my sitting down and my rising up; You understand my thought afar off.
3 You comprehend my path and my lying down, And are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue, But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.

Jude 1
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hope this helps.

Stan

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 04/28/03 03:56 PM

Thank you Stan for your last post which tells me from the Bible references quoted below that Christ in John 13:18 was referring to Psalms 41:9 as a fulfillment of prophecy regarding the betrayal of Judas.

quote:

Psalms 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

John 13:18 I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

Does this not prove the foreknowledge of God?

As far as prophecies not fulfilled goes, were these not conditional prophecies that were not fulfilled?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 04/29/03 07:55 PM

The fact God can perdict the future choices of His created beings enables Him to promise - "What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. Without this promise the New Earth is no better than hell. And God cannot make this promise without knowing the end from the beginning.

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 04/30/03 05:44 AM

Stan,

Thank you for taking the time to point out some of the texts in which you find evidence of God's foreknowledge. Unfortunately, I do not see in them what you do. Permit me to outline what I am seeing in them:

* Acts 15:18 Note that it says "His works," not mine. I agree that He knows what He is going to do though He has been known to change His mind.
* Heb 4:13 This verse shows no indication of foreknowledge.
* Matt 9:4 Ditto
* John 2:23-25 Ditto
* John 6:64 part 1 Ditto. part 2 You are geting into conditional prophecy. Judas did not have to betray Jesus.
* John 6:70-71 This verse shows no indication of foreknowledge.
* Luke 22:21-22 Ditto
* Psalm 41:9 This verse shows no indication of even being a prophecy, let alone foreknowledge.
* John 13:18-26 So Jesus had the same problem David had. What's your point? No one argues that Jesus was very discerning. He probably even had divine help here. But then so can we.
* John 18:4 If you were in Jesus' shoes back then, I think you could see quite clearly what would happen to you too. That doesn't even take divine foresight.
* Ps 139 2 This verse shows no indication of foreknowledge.
* Jude 1:4 This verse shows no indication of foreknowledge.

You and Daryl seem to make much of the similarity between David's problem with his friend and Jesus' problem with His. Jesus and the apostles applied many OT texts to events in the NT, but there were many statements in the OT which were not duplicated in the New and many NT events which were not preceeded by sayings in the Old. The coincidences may indeed have been prophecies, or John may have said to himself, "look, this is just like what happened to David" and said so in his gospel. It seems like an unfair exegesis to claim every coincidence is an example of foreknowledge.

As you can surmise, I see no evidence of foreknowledge in any of the texts you presented so far. More of a problem would be Peter's encounter with the rooster and Cyrus' calling by Isaiah, both of which could have changed their minds.

Bob Lee

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 04/30/03 03:58 PM

quote:

Bob Lee posted:
* Psalm 41:9 This verse shows no indication of even being a prophecy, let alone foreknowledge.

Then what Scriptures was Jesus referring to when He said this was fulfilled in John 13:18?

quote:

Psalms 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

John 13:18 I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

That seems to be clear to me that Jesus is referring to a fulfillment of prophecy here.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/01/03 06:08 AM

Bob Lee, if God cannot predict or foretell the future choices of created beings - then how can we be sure He is in control? that sin shall not arise again in the New Earth?

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/01/03 08:25 AM

Daryl,

Where do we find in scriptures (OT) that the angels do not marry or that humans will not marry in heaven (Jesus statement in Mark 12:24, 25)? Where is Enoch's prophecy of the Lord's coming (see Jude 1:14)? There are several places in the NT where OT scripture is quoted of which we have no record. John 13:18 may be one of those places.

Read Psalm 41 again, the whole Psalm. See if you can find an indication that any of it was intended as prophetic. I agree that NT writers applied some OT statements to Jesus' life, but it seems to me quite a stretch to claim those applications were a fulfillment of prophecy when no prophecy seems to be intended in the original statement.

Mike,

You seem to be asking the question I had asked but from the other side. I asked, "If God knew which angel was going to sin, why did He create him?" Ditto for which world was going to fall. Did some higher power force Him to do it? Or was there some sinister plan in which the presence of sin was a necessity? To me, attributing to God the characteristic of foreknowledge raises far more questions than it answers.

With a world full of people who know first hand the horrors of sin and evil, and a universe full of beings who witnessed that horror, I don't believe God will have any trouble keeping sin out of His universe.

Bob Lee

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/01/03 05:52 PM

Bob Lee, to question the inspired NT application of OT prophecies is rather bold, isn't it? Who are we to doubt the legitimacy of NT authors? Is the Holy Spirit so impotent that He cannot prevent erroneous interpretations? And was Jesus confused when He cited Jonah's experience to predict His 3 days and nights in the belly of the earth?

In the beginning, before anyone was created, the Godhead had two choices: 1) To create free moral agents and die to redeem to them from the wages of sin, or 2) Exist for eternity without them. We may never know why They chose the first option - but They did. Thank you Lord. The idea that They had no idea that angels and mankind would end up sinning is unbiblical. God is omniscient. They know the end from the beginning.

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/03/03 07:44 AM

Mike,

I think I missed something in your post. I don't remember saying anything that would suggest that I "doubt the legitimacy of NT authors." In fact, I specifically said that "I agree that NT writers applied some OT statements to Jesus' life." More to the point, though, is that I question whether some of those OT statements were prophecies at all. Certainly Jonah's three days were not prophetic, but as you suggested, Jesus Himself used them as an illustration of the time He would spend "in the heart of the Earth." Surely other Bible authors should be allowed to use similar illustrations.

I thought it interesting that you stated God created "free moral agents." By definition, that means the choice of those agents (meaning us) was unknown and unknowable before they made that choice. It seems self evident that if it can be known by any manner or means whatever what I am going to do in the future, then I have no choice in the matter and am NOT a free moral agent.

It's a different subject, by why did you say "God is omniscient?" If God says He can forget (Isa 43:25, Jer 31:34, Heb 8:12) and He changes His mind (II Kings 20:1-5, Ezek 4:12-15, Amos 7:2,6, Jonah 3:10) and says He can think and plan (Isa 37:26, Jer 18:11, Micah 4:12), I don't understand why you would call Him omniscient. Do you find any Biblical evidence for that statement?

Bob Lee

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/03/03 07:05 PM

The foreknowledge of God does not rob us of the freedom to change our choices. The way I see it is that eternity for God is like watching a rerun on TV. I can tell you everything that is going to happen ahead of time because I've already seen the show. But my telling you so does not make it so, nor does it rob the actors of their freedom to choose or to change their minds.

Bob Lee, I don't suppose you will ever change your mind about the foreknowledge of God, and it's not my place to try, but it gives me a sense of security to know and believe that God has everything under control, that nothing happens He hasn't already seen and planned for. Your sense of security comes in other ways. May God bless both of us.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/03/03 07:15 PM

Bob Lee wrote - "If God says He can forget (Isa 43:25, Jer 31:34, Heb 8:12) and He changes His mind (II Kings 20:1-5, Ezek 4:12-15, Amos 7:2,6, Jonah 3:10) and says He can think and plan (Isa 37:26, Jer 18:11, Micah 4:12), I don't understand why you would call Him omniscient. Do you find any Biblical evidence for that statement?"

When God said, I will remember your sins no more, I believe He meant He will no longer hold us accountable for them. In the case of Moses when God threatened to destroy Israel, or when God ordered Abraham to kill his son, etc., I believe God was simply testing them to prove their faithfulness. Thinking and planning, having preferences, etc., does not mean that God cannot forsee the future choices of created beings.

The biblical evidence that tells me God is omniscient, that He knows the end from the beginning is found in every passage where God predicted the outcome of this or that person(s) choices, in some cases long before they were born. Otherwise prophecy would be impossible, since it depends on knowing the choices people will make in future. I realize you do not interpret these passages the same way I do. But we can both thank God for the truth as it is in Jesus.

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/03/03 10:25 PM

Mike,

I agree that there is more than one way to interpret Biblical texts, but that is the main point I am trying to make. With our different backgrounds, different ways of thinking, and different educational opportunities, each of us find different meanings or different ways of interpreting what we find in the Bible. I believe God helps each of us find the meaning that we need in our relationship with Him. It only becomes a problem when one person tries to force his or her interpretation on another. Unfortunately, Adventism along with most other religions has been guilty of doing just that.

On the present subject, there are good arguments on both sides of the question about the foreknowledge of God. As you suggested, the way you view God's ability gives you "a sense of security to know and believe that God has everything under control, that nothing happens He hasn't already seen and planned for." Many people find a similar comfort in that interpretation. Interestingly, I could make exactly the same statement, though I start from different assumptions and envision a different mechanism than you do. So far, I see no more reason to abandon what I understand than you do to abandon yours. But there are those for whom one or the other interpretation is unsatisfactory and is for them I believe both possibilities should be presented.

Bob Lee

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/04/03 06:25 AM

It is the truth that sets us free and not our feeling of security.

This topic is far too meaningful to leave unrealized. It affects our realization of the responsibility of sin, what sin is, the greatness of God, and the meaning of faith and love.

quote:

The foreknowledge of God does not rob us of the freedom to change our choices. The way I see it is that eternity for God is like watching a rerun on TV. I can tell you everything that is going to happen ahead of time because I've already seen the show. But my telling you so does not make it so, nor does it rob the actors of their freedom to choose or to change their minds.

Mike you keep saying these impossibilities.

If the actors were to change their minds and actions between the preview and the rerun would that not change the show? For you see Mike these actors show up after the preview to do their rerun. Or on the other hand what are they choosing or changing their mind about? Is that outside the show? That would be the best thing you could say.

Mike tell me how God can "test them to prove their faithfulness" if he already knows. What is he testing?

Anyone with a little of logic would realize that if I made a machine and I knew that it will fail at such and such a time in such and such a way, that it means that I made it so that it will fail under those conditions. For my knowledge of what I had made tells me when it will fail.

I could ask you many questions, but there can be no satisfactory answers. There is however a possibility here of a misunderstanding. But Mike, please try and hear that a TV show or a book read is entirely out of line with the character and greatness of God. Such a view makes God very small. It makes him impotent. It makes him an observer; and please tell me who provides the show or book?

Mike what do you have against God understanding us so well that he can tell what we will do? What do you have against God's foreknowledge being based on understanding?

It is indeed comforting and reassuring to know that 'somebody knows what is going on'. Indeed if God would not have understanding and knowledge of what is going on inside and outside each person it would be quite the disaster. Indeed if God did not know our thoughts and heart, he could not save us. It is also wonderful to know that things are not just running on their own, but there is a plan and a purpose, and God is in charge.

I think it would be pretty naive to think that he who created the mind, thought and language is not able to know what is going on there. He who has created the abilities of feeling, desire, touch, taste, etc. certainly knows the interaction of all these and the outcome. The truth is that the sinner does not understand himself (for he is in darkness), but God does (for there is nothing hidden before his eyes), and one can only understand himself to the degree he is looking through the Father's eyes.

However it is also wonderful to know that we are not actors pre-programmed to fulfil a skit. That the exercise of our will in choosing whether to trust God and delight in him is a genuine transaction between man and God, and not only make-believe apparent only to our eyes. It is wonderful to know that our heavenly Father's knowledge of us is intimate understanding and not a cold inanimate book read. It is most meaningful to know that our thoughts and actions are not simply an outworking of a pre-programmed code in the DNA. But that God has endowed us with the breath of his spirit making us living persons with whom he can fellowship and interact meaningfully in love, faith, goodwill of a free will. Persons that are made in his image, that can genuinely love, have faith, trust, have goodwill. Persons that can hold genuine fellowship with God in spirit of mercy, grace, longsuffering, forgiveness, patience, joy, peace, goodness. Persons that can worship God in spirit and in truth.

he pondereth all his goings.

I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins,

If God's foreknowledge was of that abstract nature, and not based upon understanding, then the above scriptures, of which there are many, would be impossible. What is there to ponder? What is there to search and try if it is already known. It is this that God has given to the beings created in his image, that is hallowed in his eyes, the domain that he does not enter; the realm of our own governance. The realm and domain he knows. The breadth and height and depth of it he knows. But the choice of our allegiance, of our faith (in this realm) he has made ours in such a way so that none including him can foretell. This is the genuine domain of our person. This authority is not fabulous, but it is marvellous. From a simple choice of only two options such a universe of difference can be.

Perhaps it is not understood what is meant by a free will. Who has a free will?

First, the situation before sin. When God created a free will judicial being in his own image, such was by default dependant and trusting God. God then gives them freedom to choose whether to remain faithful or to distrust. Here all heaven including God awaits the decision. There is no foreknowing here.

Second, the situation after sin. After sin, the sinner came under the dominion of Satan, and lost his/her freedom and ability to choose faith. Distrust is on every side. It is here that God stepped in and interposed between Satan and sinner so that man may be able to have the choice of faith. Here again all heaven including God awaits the decision. There is no foreknowing here.

Apart from this choice between only the two options, the choice of whether to trust God or not, man has no freedom. It is illusionary. That is to say that the idea of what decisions a person makes daily and under various circumstances in practical life are predetermined by the source that is used to make them. Example: feelings, desires, greed, lust, ambition, pride, religion, principles. On the other hand for God's children, the Lord is their source, for they delight to do his will, and therefore the outcome is known.

There is perhaps none here that stands for God's knowledge (to us foreknowledge) more than I do, but most certainly not in an abstract sense. God's understanding of us is as complete as possible without making actors out of us, or himself of no effect.

Shalom

Posted By: Donovan Wallace

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/04/03 08:11 AM

If God's foreknowledge is an established fact then surely Satan would know this. In the story of Job, Satan dares God to remove His protection of Job claiming that Job would "curse You to Your face". Essentially Satan was claiming to be a better predictor than God of how Job would respond in adversity.

Surely, Satan would not be so naive as to challenge God's foreknowledge if it were an established fact.

The whole premise or plot of the story was over Job's free will and what he would do.

If God has a precise foreknowledge of all future events (this being distinct from control over them) then the "debate" between Satan and God makes no sense.

The notion of God's seeing the future as a video on TV (what I call precise foreknowledge) is essentially an indirect version of the Calvanistic doctrine of predestination.

dw

[ May 05, 2003, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Donovan Wallace ]

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/04/03 07:02 PM

John, well done. Thank you. I very much appreciate the way you made a distinction between God "understanding us so well that he can tell what we will do" or "foreknowledge being based on understanding" and my idea that for God the history of our choices is like watching a rerun on TV or rereading a book.

But then you went on to say that God's fatherly foreknowledge or understanding us well enough to know what we will do is limited when it comes to knowing ahead of time whether or not we will accept or reject Jesus as our personal Saviour, whether or not we will commit a known sin. Can you please explain this apparent contradiction?

Also, do you believe God is able to look into the future and predict, based on His understanding foreknowledge, what we will do before we are born? And secondly, do you believe God can predict the future outcomes of mankind and his choices?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/05/03 08:53 PM

God knows who will be saved and who lost, and He has known this before the world was created:

“The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.” Rev 17:8

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/05/03 11:22 PM

Great quote, Lobo. That should settle the question this thread is based on! Thank you Jesus.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/06/03 08:14 PM

You are welcome my friend. There are probably other texts in the OT that relate to this, but I haven’t really studied them because it was never an issue. I can’t image that a believer would not feel that God know the beginning from the end.

Also, if God did know what was going to happen how could He give visions of future events to man, what we call prophesy?

Posted By: Darius

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/06/03 10:49 PM

I see that the following text is being interpreted to mean that those who will be saved was known to God from the foundation of the world. Apart from the fact that this is the essence of predestination, it makes the entrance of sin inevitable. It is more in line with God's character to interpret the phrase 'whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world' to refer to those whose names were not written into the book from the foundation of the world until now. The difference is important. The first says that all the names were written per predestination at the foundation of the world. The second says that as time has progressed from the foundation of the world, men have had their names written into the book of life. Interestingly, both interpretations support the view that once one is saved, name written, one is permanently saved.

“The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.” Rev 17:8

Darius

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/07/03 02:03 AM

quote:

The difference is important. The first says that all the names were written per predestination at the foundation of the world. The second says that as time has progressed from the foundation of the world, men have had their names written into the book of life. Interestingly, both interpretations support the view that once one is saved, name written, one is permanently saved.

Darius, you have a very rigid view of this issue. Just because God knows sin will occur and knows who will be saved and lost a head of time does not mean these events are based on His action. God knows these things will occur, but does not change the outcome to preserve our freewill. Predestination implies that God is making the choice, not man. Since scripture is clear that man is making the choice to be saved, God just already knows what each persons choice will be before they make it. That is not predestination.

Also, you need to think a little deeper into the issue. Knowing the outcome is not the same as the once-saved always-saved idea. The names were written in the book as an outcome, not process. Also, since know one has the ability to know now if their name is really I the book or not, that knowledge does not affect the process of salvation.

It’s not as if people are saved because their name is in the book. People are in the book because they are saved.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/07/03 03:13 AM

Thank you Lobo for contributing. That is a significant text that you brought forth. It certainly warranted investigation.

Truth is not truth until it is understood in truth.

The context of the names written in the book of life:

and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,

whose names are not written in the book of life

whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,

and another book was opened, which is the book of life:

and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life

God shall take away his part out of the book of life,

and from the things which are written in this book.

The context of understanding the names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world has its meaning in that all creation has been written in the book of life and purposed (predestined) in Christ to become sons of God.

not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

but also for the sins of the whole world.

Not all will remain written in the book of life. There are those who did/will not heed the call of God that they may be saved. Those who loved darkness rather than light. They will be blotted out. That is why the Lord repeatedly says "if" - "then". Yet salvation is positive; that is, the Lord extends goodwill to all and calls every one. But not all respond.

Being written in the Book of life does not mean that one was foreknown to be saved, but it means that one was called to be saved. Sadly, there are many whose names are removed from the book of life. Those who overcome will remain in the book of life.

Shalom

[ May 06, 2003, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/07/03 04:49 AM

Mike,

I believe the above gives fundamental answers to the questions you asked also.

Shalom

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/07/03 05:42 AM

GC 479-481

The books of record in heaven, in which the names and the deeds of men are registered, are to determine the decisions of the judgment. Says the prophet Daniel: "The judgment was set, and the books were opened." The revelator, describing the same scene, adds: "Another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12. {GC 480.2}

The book of life contains the names of all who have ever entered the service of God. Jesus bade His disciples: "Rejoice, because your names are written in heaven." Luke 10:20. Paul speaks of his faithful fellow workers, "whose names are in the book of life." Philippians 4:3. Daniel, looking down to "a time of trouble, such as never was," declares that God's people shall be delivered, "everyone that shall be found written in the book." And the revelator says that those only shall enter the city of God whose names "are written in the Lamb's book of life." Daniel 12:1; Revelation 21:27. {GC 480.3}

"A book of remembrance" is written before God, in which are recorded the good deeds of "them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon His name." Malachi 3:16. Their words of faith, their acts of love, are registered in heaven. Nehemiah refers to this when he says: "Remember me, O my God, . . . and wipe not out my good deeds that I have done for the house of my God." Nehemiah 13:14. In the book of God's remembrance every deed of righteousness is immortalized. There every temptation resisted, every evil overcome, every word of tender pity expressed, is faithfully chronicled. And every act of sacrifice, every suffering and sorrow endured for Christ's sake, is recorded. Says the psalmist: "Thou tellest my wanderings: put Thou my tears into Thy bottle: are they not in Thy book?" Psalm 56:8. {GC 481.1}

There is a record also of the sins of men. "For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Says the Saviour: "By thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Ecclesiastes 12:14; Matthew 12:36, 37. The secret purposes and motives appear in the unerring register; for God "will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts." I Corinthians 4:5. "Behold, it is written before Me, . . . your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord." Isaiah 65:6, 7. {GC 481.2}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/07/03 05:45 AM

Apparently not everybody born of man is written in the Lamb's book of Life, but only those who have ever entered the service of God.

"The book of life contains the names of all who have ever entered the service of God." GC 480.

"The names of all those who have once given themselves to God are written in the book of life...." 7BC 960.

"When we become children of God, our names are written in the Lamb's book of life, and they remain there until the time of the investigative judgment." 7BC 987. NOTE: this quote, and others, make it clear that our names are entered in the book of life when, but not before, we experience genuine conversion.

"Many who are without spiritual life have their names on the church records, but they are not written in the Lamb's book of life." 4BC 1166.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/07/03 02:47 PM

On the subject of foreknowledge Mike, it is evident that you agree now that the Rev 17:8 does not support it.

The significant question at the end of time is whether the name will be found written in the book of life.
The fault of one's name not being written in the book of life shall not lie with God for not having written it there. The fact that one's name is written there at one time does not foreclose that it may not be removed from the book of life. The answer will be clear that it was removed from the book of life by one's own hand. (Not literally but effectively) No foreknowledge indicated here.

The fact that one's name is there and they have yet to overcome, they have yet to be clothed in white raiment, means that God does not wait until one overcomes to enter their name in the book of life. Their name being written means they have been called.

Salvation is not exclusionary. All are called. God's purpose is that all should be saved. Sadly not all accept.

Regarding your EW quotes. This does not conflict. The concept of investigative judgement being in the future is erroneous. It is always in the present. But that is another topic.

Shalom

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/07/03 05:59 PM

Yes, I admit that the biblical references to the book of life do not support foreknowledge. But the fact God is able to predict the future clearly implies divine foreknowledge - rather than inspired intellectual guess work.

RE: the criteria upon which God enters our names in the book of ife. Personally I do not believe God can enter our names in the book of life until we have experienced the miracle of genuine conversion and have been born again in Christ. We are born again without our former moral imperfections or defects of character. The following quote makes this point clear.

4BC 1166
The Spirit of God, with its vivifying power, must be in every human agent, that every spiritual muscle and sinew may be in exercise. Without the Holy Spirit, without the breath of God, there is torpidity of conscience, loss of spiritual life. Many who are without spiritual life have their names on the church records, but they are not written in the Lamb's book of life. They may be joined to the church, but they are not united to the Lord. They may be diligent in the performance of a certain set of duties, and may be regarded as living men; but many are among those who have "a name that thou livest, and art dead." {4BC 1166.1}

Unless there is genuine conversion of the soul to God; unless the vital breath of God quickens the soul to spiritual life; unless the professors of truth are actuated by heaven-born principle, they are not born of the incorruptible seed which liveth and abideth forever. Unless they trust in the righteousness of Christ as their only security; unless they copy His character, labor in His spirit, they are naked, they have not on the robe of His righteousness. The dead are often made to pass for the living; for those who are working out what they term salvation after their own ideas, have not God working in them to will and to do of His good pleasure. {4BC 1166.2}

RE: the investigative judgment. I agree that judgment is ongoing, but I believe the investigative aspect of judgment, 1) scrutinizing every word and deed, 2) blotting out the record and memory of specific sins or good deeds 3) removing or retaining names in the book of life, is all future. For the dead it happens sometime after they die, and for the living it happens sometime after the MOB crisis begins and it ends when probation closes.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/07/03 07:09 PM

This is a very interesting discussion. I have to agree with John that the book of life issue does not support foreknowledge in the sense that God wrote only those who would be saved down from the beginning.

However, this does not preclude the fact that God has to have foreknowledge to predict the future. For example, the prediction of Jesus coming to save the human race in Gen 3:15. There are countless other prophesies related to the first advent of Jesus that were fulfilled exactly as predicted by the OT prophet.

So if God has knowledge of future events, which are determined to some extent by man’s choices, then God knows the choices men will make. This means God also knows or has foreknowledge of our spiritual choices as well. Again, having this knowledge does not imply that God will change the outcome of our choices.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/07/03 08:11 PM

The phrase "whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" could be taken to mean - Whose names were not written in the book of life where names have been recorded from the foundation of the world.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/08/03 12:21 AM

Mike you seem to have a concern that some unworthy person might end up in heaven because their name got left in the book of life. I would not worry about that. All that will remain in the book of the Lamb’s Life are possessors of the Lamb’s Life. It is a wonderful life. Hallelujah. This will become meaningful in our topic of “Salvation is from sin, or what? Lobo I would like to invite your comments in that topic.

Understanding is deep and far-reaching with God. There is nothing hid. His declaration of what is or shall be is true. The word ‘predict’ does not do justice to God’s knowledge. God does not predict. He knows, he understands, he purposes, he declares, he reveals, he rules.

Prophecy is not a question. It is according to God's knowledge, purpose and mastery.

There are specifically 2 points in question that are at issue.

Did God foreknow that Lucifer will fall; Adam will fall?

Did God foreknow who (as an individual) will be saved, and who will not?

The answer to both of the above is NO!

To me it seems very plain from the subject on the book of Life,not only that it does not support foreknowledge there, but that the second question is thus answered. By default, that would also mean the first question to be likewise answered. Others may need to see more.

I would like to ask, while we are at this topic and since most here believe that God does foreknow wonderfully, if any have any personal experience with God's foreknowledge that they would like to share with us here?

Shalom

[ May 08, 2003, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

Posted By: Darius

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/08/03 01:26 AM

quote:
Originally posted by <Lobo>:
For example, the prediction of Jesus coming to save the human race in Gen 3:15.

That was a promise, not a prediction. Notice God did not make any statements regarding the rise of Abraham and the Hebrews, then the rise of Christianity. He did not know these would happen because they were in response to developments "on the ground." There is nothing to support the view that foreknowledge is a prerequisite for deity. It is only necessary that Jehovah know more than the next guy.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/08/03 02:03 AM

quote:

That was a promise, not a prediction. Notice God did not make any statements regarding the rise of Abraham and the Hebrews, then the rise of Christianity. He did not know these would happen because they were in response to developments "on the ground." There is nothing to support the view that foreknowledge is a prerequisite for deity. It is only necessary that Jehovah know more than the next guy.

Darius, for God to maintain the freewill system of choice He has to know what will happen. If He causes something to happen that removes mans freewill.

There are so many human factors involved in all of the prophesies of the OT. Millions of variables that have to come together to produce the results God indicates will occur. So either God is removing many peoples freewill to have His purpose fulfilled (by changing circumstances and making people do certain things), or He knows who will choose what ahead of time and just tells us about it beforehand.

Removing the foreknowledge of God makes Him a manipulator of man’s freewill, because there is no other way He could guarantee an accurate outcome to a stated event ahead of time.

So either God doesn’t have foreknowledge and manipulates man’s freewill to reach a certain outcome, or He knows what choices men will make and just let’s us know ahead of time what will occur.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/08/03 04:19 AM

How did God forsee this unless He either has foreknowledge or manipulated the result?

quote:

Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

I believe God knew this would happen and prophesized it accordingly.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/08/03 04:26 AM

Bob Lee,

Regarding the following:

quote:
John 13:18[/b] I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

That seems to be clear to me that Jesus is referring to a fulfillment of prophecy here.

You never did answer my question as to what Scripture that Christ was referring to when He said what He said in the above reference, obviously referring to the betrayal by Judas which was obviously prophesied in the OT Scriptures seeing that the NT Scriptures didn't yet exist.

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/08/03 08:27 AM

Daryl,

I thought I made it clear that the NT makes reference to many prophecies of which we have no record. Just because Jesus or the Disciples state an event fulfilled a prediction doesn't necessarily mean a similar statement is actually being referred to, especially one which shows no evidence of being a prediction.

In fact, the major theme of Isaiah, the last eight chapters of Ezekiel, some of Zachariah and portions of other OT books strongly imply that Jesus would come to set up the New Earth at His first coming. Even in the New Testament, everyone, including Jesus, seems to believe Jesus would be back within a few years of His ascension. On the surface, there is virtually nothing in the OT to suggest the kind of life Jesus actually lived when He got here. When conditions developed as they did, then some of the OT statements were applied to events in Jesus' life.

Permit me to suggest that virtually all prophecies fall into one of two catagories.

1. What God promised He would do (some of these prophecies are conditional.
2. Conditional prophecies (like Jonah's)

It doesn't require foreknowledge for either one of them.

Bob Lee

Posted By: Darius

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/08/03 03:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by <Lobo>:
Darius, for God to maintain the freewill system of choice He has to know what will happen. If He causes something to happen that removes mans freewill.

I wish you would take us through your reasoning so I can respond responsibly. I truly wish you will take the time so we can clear this up.

quote:

There are so many human factors involved in all of the prophesies of the OT. Millions of variables that have to come together to produce the results God indicates will occur. So either God is removing many peoples freewill to have His purpose fulfilled (by changing circumstances and making people do certain things), or He knows who will choose what ahead of time and just tells us about it beforehand.

I will never forget something I learned in my Public Evangelism class. Our professor told us that if we follow his principles as taught we could be certain that a particular percentage would respond. However, we could not tell which individuals in the congregation would respond. In the recent war the Pentagon could predict casualties but never attempted to tell us which Marines would die. You have to provide a prophecy in which God predicted the behavior of a particular person. Christ's prediction about Peter does not qualify because it was based on an analysis of Peter.

quote:

Removing the foreknowledge of God makes Him a manipulator of man’s freewill, because there is no other way He could guarantee an accurate outcome to a stated event ahead of time.

This does not follow. If God does not know what I will do tomorrow how is He manipulating my will. We must be careful not to posit a version of human will that denies divine will.

quote:

So either God doesn’t have foreknowledge and manipulates man’s freewill to reach a certain outcome, or He knows what choices men will make and just let’s us know ahead of time what will occur.

This too does not follow. The future does not depend only on man's efforts. If the Jews had accepted Jesus we would never have had the rise of Christianity. The rise of Christianity was the exercise of God's will in response to the corporate exercise of the Jewish will.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/09/03 06:00 AM

John, thank you for reminding me that I do not need to worry about someone slipping into heaven who shouldn't be there. Thank you Jesus. You're right "predict" isn't the best word - foreknowledge is a much better one.

Here's a personal story about God's foreknowledge (it's a rather sad one so please bear with me). I dreamed that my wife and I were on a cruise ship at sea. We were having a wonderful and romantic time. We were in love. Then suddenly a terrible storm washed both of us overboard. We were trying desperately to stay together but a huge wave separated us. I never saw her again. I woke up and was glad to find my wife sleeping soundly beside me. Six months later she left me for another man. The day she left was the first I knew about it. She had met him a month earlier, but before then it never occurred to her she would fall in love with him and leave me.

Again, I'm sorry for sharing such a sad story. Please don't feel like you have tiptoe around me. Just respond honestly. The day she left I recalled the dream, and it was then that I suspected God knew she was going to leave me in future and that He was trying to prepare me for the rude awakening and heartache. In truth the dream has comforted me ever since.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/09/03 06:18 AM

Darius wrote concerning Gen 3:15 - "That was a promise, not a prediction. Notice God did not make any statements regarding the rise of Abraham and the Hebrews, then the rise of Christianity. He did not know these would happen because they were in response to developments "on the ground." There is nothing to support the view that foreknowledge is a prerequisite for deity. It is only necessary that Jehovah know more than the next guy."

Darius please consider these quotes:

1. "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15. The divine sentence pronounced against Satan after the fall of man was also a prophecy, embracing all the ages to the close of time and foreshadowing the great conflict to engage all the races of men who should live upon the earth. {GC 505.1}

2. The incarnation of Christ is a mystery. The union of divinity with humanity is a mystery indeed, hidden with God, "even the mystery which hath been hid from ages." It was kept in eternal silence by Jehovah, and was first revealed in Eden, by the prophecy that the Seed of the woman should bruise the serpent's head, and that he should bruise His heel. {6BC 1082.4}

To present to the world this mystery that God kept in silence for eternal ages before the world was created, before man was created, was the part that Christ was to act in the work He entered upon when He came to this earth. And this wonderful mystery, the incarnation of Christ and the atonement that He made, must be declared to every son and daughter of Adam. . . . His sufferings perfectly fulfilled the claims of the law of God (ST Jan. 30, 1912). {6BC 1082.5}

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/09/03 06:21 AM

The point that I am trying to get at is the fact that Christ referred to the fact that the betrayal was prophesied in the OT Scriptures that He would be betrayed, and betrayed He was. The OT Scripture, wherever it is, may not have stated who the person was, but it did give sufficient detail rerlating to the betrayal even to the cost of the betrayal, 40 silver coins.

Also, all the prophecies of the rise and fall of the kingdoms, even naming the symbols of those kingdoms as clearly defined in the statue in Nebu.....'s dream, is to detailed for it not to be based on the foreknowledge of God.

Posted By: Darius

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/09/03 06:34 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Darius please consider these quotes:

Neither of these posts support the popular view of foreknowledge. God promised to rescue man, period. Even in Nebuchadnezzar's dream God does not say how the overthrow of the kingdoms would take place, e.g. whether there would be much or little bloodshed. That would depend on man's decisions.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/09/03 06:44 AM

Darius, I have to agree with Lobo. God cannot prophesy future developments of kingdoms unless He also knows the choices specific individuals will make under a myriad of circumstances. Cyrus, a contemporary of your namesake, is one such example. But if God does not know the future, like watching a rerun, then in order for Him to accurately foretell the future He would have to manipulate the choices mankind to force things to turn out the way He said it would. Which of course He will not do, nor does He have to since He knows the end from the beginning.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/09/03 06:47 AM

quote:

This too does not follow. The future does not depend only on man's efforts. If the Jews had accepted Jesus we would never have had the rise of Christianity. The rise of Christianity was the exercise of God's will in response to the corporate exercise of the Jewish will.

Darius, God predicted or had foreknowledge of the Jews rejecting Jesus long before Jesus was born:

Isaiah 53 "1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. 9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. 11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

So Darius, if God didn’t foreknow this would happen, then how did He know that Israel would reject Jesus and that Jesus would be pierced or live the life Isaiah described hundreds of years before Jesus?

Either God made those men pierce Jesus side and reject him to fulfill prophesy, or He had foreknowledge that it would happen.

This does "follow".

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/09/03 12:24 AM

God had foreknowledge of Israel rejecting Jesus:

“22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.” Acts 2

God has foreknowledge of who will be saved:

“1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.” 1 Peter

Posted By: Darius

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/09/03 01:55 AM

Lobo, if God knows exactly who will be saved then He knows exactly what will bring this controversy to an end. This presents a small problem.

If I knew that something I was about to do would not work, and also knew that another approach would work, there is no need to guess which approach I would use. I would use the approach that I know will work. We know (believe) that at some point this will all be resolved in God's favor.

According to "foreknowledge" God knows what will work to accomplish that. We also know that several things He has done have not worked: the flood, calling Abraham and the establishing the Jews as His people.

Tell me this, if He knew what would work and what would not work, why would He put us through all this misery and try what He already knew would not work?

I just refuse to believe I am smarter than God.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/09/03 02:32 AM

quote:

According to "foreknowledge" God knows what will work to accomplish that. We also know that several things He has done have not worked: the flood, calling Abraham and the establishing the Jews as His people.

How do “we” know this?

What didn’t work about the flood?

What didn’t work about calling Abraham?

What didn’t work about Israel? (Incidentally, God predicted that only a remnant of literal Israel would be saved anyway, Isa 11:10-11, 10:20-23)

quote:

Tell me this, if He knew what would work and what would not work, why would He put us through all this misery and try what He already knew would not work?

I just refuse to believe I am smarter than God.

Who put whom through this misery? Sorry, man did it all on his own. God didn’t make man choose to sin, and continue to choose to rebel. God just allowed man to have freewill. And with freewill came mistakes.

So including the plan of salvation from the fall of man shows that God knew what would happen and provided a method to save man while preserving freewill.

So while it seems you would remove freewill, God in His wisdom and foreknowledge designed a way to preserve man’s freewill while still achieving His purpose to save as many of us as possible. This is something that neither you or I are smart enough to pull off.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/09/03 05:01 AM

Everything God is doing to end the great controversy is part and parcel of what is needful to accomplish His objectives. Remember, if Adam and Eve had successfully resisted Satan's initial temptation the great controversy would have ended then and there. Ever since then everything God has been doing and will yet do is the one plan that will bring an end to sin and sinners. Nothing that has happened between the fall of Adam and now has taken God by surprise. That is, He hasn't been hoping He can end the controversy sooner than this. He knows why and when the controversy will end.

1. When Adam and Eve were placed in the beautiful garden, they had everything for their happiness which they could desire. But he chose in his all-wise arrangements to test their loyalty before they could be rendered eternally secure. They were to have his favor, and he to converse with them, and they with him. Yet he did not place evil out of their reach. Satan was permitted to tempt them. If they endured the trial they were to be in perpetual favor with God and the heavenly angels. {3SG 38.2}

[ May 09, 2003, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/09/03 08:01 AM

I first came into this discussion many years ago when I was reading Daniel 10. I would invite everyone to review that chapter along with chapter 9. Here Daniel is asking the Lord why the Jews were not on their way back to Jerusalem since the seventy years of captivity promised through Jeremiah were up (see Daniel 9:1-3). Instead of answering, God sent Gabriel with a message about an additional seventy weeks which really sent Daniel into a tizzy. Soon after this, Daniel spent three weeks begging for understanding and was even physically sick over the situation. Finally a majestic being appeared who stated that he had come three weeks earlier to answer his (Daniel's) prayer, but had been detained in the process of trying to get the king of Persia to honor that seventy week prophecy. Finally, the being sent for reinforcements. So another being called Michael came to help him and while Michael was negotiating with Cyrus, this being came to respond to Daniel's prayer.

In reading this, I asked myself, "If God can see the future as Christendom teaches, what's this all about?" Why did TWO heavenly beings have to come to Earth just to get a prophecy fulfilled? Weren't prophecies a reflection of events which God knew would occur? That question began a study which led me to believe that many things we teach about God are actually human inventions that have little or no scriptural basis, the concept that God has foreknowledge being one of them.

Bob Lee

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/09/03 04:11 PM

This is turning into a very interesting topic for I had always thought that God knew both the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end.

Does the SDA Church have an official doctrinal stand on this?

Posted By: Darius

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/09/03 05:11 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Everything God is doing to end the great controversy is part and parcel of what is needful to accomplish His objectives.

At this point our arguments are similar to those used by evolutionists who point out the fact that because every organism today fits some evolutionary niche it means that this came about through evolution. I think we can all see that this is circular reasoning.

It is obvious that the question of God's foreknowledge is not a simple proposition.

Posted By: Darius

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/09/03 05:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Does the SDA Church have an official doctrinal stand on this?[/b]

I sense murky water ahead.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/09/03 05:42 PM

Bob Lee, isn't it obvious that God's foreknowledge is based on what will happen as if it had already happened? So why should we be surprised at the details involved when things turn out the way they do? The reason God was able to prophesy what Cyrus would do is because He knew the history before, during and after Cyrus, which included Michael and Gabriel exerting extra effort to influence his course of action.

To suggest God doesn't know the future decisions of individual people based on the fact Michael and Gabriel had to work hard to influence Cyrus' decree, as if it was necessary to save face, ignores the fact God already knew ahead of time the details involved that led Cyrus to allow the Jews to return to Jerusalem. Prophecy rarely includes all the details that result in the prophesied outcome. So we shouldn't be derailed on account of the many details involved in the fulfillment of a prophecy, so long as the results are in harmony with the prophesied outcome.

Darius, isn't it amazing how evolutionists can take Bible truth and pervert it to support the theory of monkeys and man? It just goes to show that Satan cannot originate an original idea, all he can do is twist the truth to serve a lie.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/10/03 06:26 AM

It would also be interesting to see if EGW was given any insight on this.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/10/03 06:30 AM

quote:

In reading this, I asked myself, "If God can see the future as Christendom teaches, what's this all about?" Why did TWO heavenly beings have to come to Earth just to get a prophecy fulfilled? Weren't prophecies a reflection of events which God knew would occur? That question began a study which led me to believe that many things we teach about God are actually human inventions that have little or no scriptural basis, the concept that God has foreknowledge being one of them.

Bob, many, including myself, interpret Daniel 10:13 as angels in conflict with one another. In other words, the “prince” of the kingdom of Persia is actually a fallen angel trying to interfere with God’s plans.

Jesus himself calls saten the “prince of this world” (John 12:31). Paul also tells us that the fight or conflict between good and evil is a spiritual war where angels and spiritual being fight behind the scenes to support or destroy God’s plans (Eph 6:12).

Next, notice that there is no other mention of a “prince of Persia” in any other book of scripture. There is a king of Persia, but no prince. The only other mention of a prince is later in this same chapter (10:20) when Gabriel is stating that he is going back to “fight” (NIV) this prince of Persia. So again it would not be reasonable that an angel would be fighting with a human for 21 days and need help just to leave and go to Daniel.

So in reality it doesn’t appear that Daniel 10:13 refers to angels trying to get people to do something, but trying to stop fallen angels from interfering in God’s work. And since angels are evenly matched it would be reasonable to believe that it would take 21 days and help form other angels to get the work done while other fallen angels try and cause problems.

So what Daniel 10:13 refers to is basically a fallen angel not letting the angel Gabriel get to Daniel to give him the vision. I don’t believe this text had anything to do with the literal human prince of Persia (because such person doesn’t appear to exist other than in this chapter of Daniel) but the fallen angel who was assigned to that area.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/10/03 01:02 AM

I want to thank you Mike for sharing your personal experience of God's foreknowledge. I am sorry that it was such a sad occasion for you. It is obvious that God knew her heart and basis of relationship, and knew that she would be swept away when the storm of temptation came. This reminds me of the story of the different types of ground that Christ was referring to. How obvious the different results for the same seed on different ground, and under different conditions. Now we do not have to remain the bad ground. We can ask him to make of us the good ground. He can do it. Albeit he may have to remove a lot and bring in a lot.

I would also like to share experiences that we have had with our heavenly Father's foreknowledge. But it will take a little time to write. They have positive endings so it won't be sad, but I trust meaningful insight in this discussion of both questions.

God's ability to know the future and also at the same time be able to alter it according to his will, to accomplish his purpose and end.

The abilities and powers he gave to his creation and how this interplays with his purposes. This also establishes our responsibility and accountability.

Shalom

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/10/03 08:22 AM

Lobo,

That's an interesting concept you presented but it does not go to the heart of the discussion. The point, no matter who the participants are, is that the fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy was NOT automatic. In other words, God and His angels had to interfere with the course of events in order to get the promise (prophecy) fulfilled. Or looking at it the other way, if God and His angels had not interferred, the prophecy would not have been fulfilled! Your version seems to make the possibility of foreknowledge even more unlikely.

Bob Lee

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/12/03 07:21 PM

quote:

Lobo,

That's an interesting concept you presented but it does not go to the heart of the discussion. The point, no matter who the participants are, is that the fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy was NOT automatic. In other words, God and His angels had to interfere with the course of events in order to get the promise (prophecy) fulfilled. Or looking at it the other way, if God and His angels had not interferred, the prophecy would not have been fulfilled! Your version seems to make the possibility of foreknowledge even more unlikely.

Bob, you are missing my point. God does intervene when asked to by man or to preserve man’s freewill. So if God is going to give a vision to Daniel, at Daniel’s request I might add, and a demon tries to stop it, God is going to act.
So really all this proves is that the future can be changed, not that God doesn’t have foreknowledge of it.

Remember, our discussion is not about whether the fulfillment of prophesy is automatic, its about whether God knows a head of time what the outcome will be. So the fact that God did intervene to give Daniel the vision shows that God knew what the outcome would be if He did not.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/13/03 06:12 AM

John, thank you, especially thank you for not ignoring or overlooking my personal story. Not everybody is comfortable with sad stories, which is probably why it's not wise to share them in this type of forum - sad stories, that is. I look forward to your stories.

Boblee, it looks as though you overlooked the post where I suggested why and how things worked out the way they did in light of God's foreknowledge and Cyrus and Michael and Gabriel. Or are you still planning to respond to it?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/13/03 05:04 PM

EGW states in Desire of Ages that Jesus could have failed in His mission to redeem us. If God has absolute foreknowledge, then there was no risk, no possibility of failure. Or is there another angle I'm not seeing...

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/13/03 05:12 PM

Could have failed or could have returned ere this does not detract from the foreknowledge of God or manipulate history. Freedom of choice is not destroyed simply because God has already seen things play out. There are a million ways things could have turned out but God knows how they will turn out because He's already seen it - like watching a rerun, which includes all the ways God has prevented things from turning out a way not best for mankind or the universe. Not that God is making it up as He goes along. He knows when and how to upset Satan's plans so that things turn out best for all involved. And all this is taken into account when He prophesies the future.

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/14/03 07:28 AM

Mike,

I apologize for overlooking the question you asked. In your remarks, you stated that I am ignoring "the fact God already knew ahead of time the details involved..." I wasn't ignoring the "fact," I am saying I find no evidence of that being a "fact" -- that God knows anything ahead of time. And I am using the story of Michael and the other being (we are not told who it was) as corroboration of that belief.

By the way, the concept that God knows the future seems to limit God extremely by turning Him into nothing but a preprogrammed computer! And I would ask, If God is the top Banana, just who programmed the computer? He's not allowed to make plans, respond to requests, change His mind, or get upset; all of which He specifically says He does.

It's interesting that Lobo stated "So really all this proves is that the future can be changed, not that God doesn't have foreknowledge of it." Lobo admits the exact point I am trying to make. He admits the future can be changed, but if the future can be changed, then God cannot have foreknowledge of it. Conversely, if God has foreknowledge, then the future cannot be changed. That includes any choices I supposedly make. If God knows the choice I am going to make, then I really don't have any choice. How can anyone say otherwise?

It's like the question: what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object? If you define an irresistible force, you have automatically defined away the possibility of an immovable object! Similarly, if you allow changes to be made in the future (or God to change His mind, or lay plans, or forget your sins, or respond to your prayers), you automatically define away the possibility that the future can be known.

Bob Lee

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/14/03 04:35 PM

Bob Lee, thank you for responding to my thoughts on foreknowledge. I didn't mean to say you were ignoring them. I thought maybe you had overlooked my last post to you. It's looking as though we'll never agree on this subject, but fortunately our salvation does not depend on getting it right. God is bigger than we can ever imagine, His ways past finding out.

You wrote - "He's not allowed to make plans, respond to requests, change His mind, or get upset; all of which He specifically says He does." I agree with you that God can and does do these things. It's just that I don't see how or why they prevent Him from having foreknowledge. Just because it appears to us that God is willing to change His mind doesn't mean He will. In most cases it was just His strategy to test us or to influence us to make the best choice (i.e., Abraham and Moses).

I believe God has foreseen everything He has done and will do for eternity as if it has already happened, which includes the many different ways things could have turned if this or that had happened. This also includes interacting with us in a way that influences us to choose the best course of action so as to get the best results - all of which keeps in mind the outcome of the great controversy.

In order for the future to turn out the way God has forseen and/or foreordained He must be proactive - that is, He must intervene to prevent choices from being made that would yield results not in keeping with His plan for the outcome of the great controversy. But all His interventions are part of the details He foresaw in order for things to turn out right. He knows ahead of time the part He must play to ensure everything goes the right way.

I realize you don't see it this way, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me, the only way I can understand how He can prophesy future events with perfect precision, the only way I can know in my heart He is in control and that the future is safe in His hands.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/14/03 04:48 PM

quote:

It's interesting that Lobo stated "So really all this proves is that the future can be changed, not that God doesn't have foreknowledge of it." Lobo admits the exact point I am trying to make. He admits the future can be changed, but if the future can be changed, then God cannot have foreknowledge of it. Conversely, if God has foreknowledge, then the future cannot be changed. That includes any choices I supposedly make. If God knows the choice I am going to make, then I really don't have any choice. How can anyone say otherwise?

Bob, you seem to have trouble with the concept of foreknowledge. Knowing the outcome does not mean that it cannot be changed. Or that you don’t have any choice in the matter.

For example, God knows the outcome of your choices. Suppose God knows that if you go to college you will become a Christian, and if you don’t go you will not. You have a choice in the matter and choose to go to college for other reasons, as you don’t make you decision on what God knows.

So it is not that the future really changes, it is that there can be many different future outcomes of the choices we make today. God has foreknowledge of these outcomes. Having this knowledge doesn’t take away your ability to choose because it was your choice, not God’s.

So if God has foreknowledge of the outcome of our choices, the question is does He also know what we will choose? Since we have freewill I would have to say no. God knows what the outcome of our choice will be, but to preserve our freewill does not know what our choice will be.

So in the example above, God had foreknowledge of the outcome of your choices, but didn’t know which outcome you would choose.

Now understand that this only applies to freewill. If I’m a Christian and ask God to lead me actions daily, and to direct me to choose correctly daily, then God also would have foreknowledge of my choices because I have given Him the choice.

So God has foreknowledge of the outcome of our actions and choices, but not the actual choice until it is made.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/14/03 05:19 PM

Lobo, I would like to add that God will not allow us to make choices that will ultimately upset the outcome of the great controversy. He will either exert superhuman effort to influence us to choose the best course of action or put us in an early grave to prevent us from making a choice that would upset His plans for the outcome of the great controversy. Balaam and the talking donkey is an example of how far God is willing to go to prevent us from making the wrong decisions. This does not imply all wrong decisions are going to upset God's ultimate plan.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/15/03 06:37 AM

Mike, I totally agree. This also shows that God does know the outcome of actions, which means He has foreknowledge of the outcome of the actions we take. So the fact that God takes certain actions to keep His plan moving to the correct outcome proves that He knows the outcome, which means He has foreknowledge.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/15/03 12:16 AM

Lobo, I love the way you put that. Thank you!! God is good.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/15/03 05:43 AM

Thank you Lobo for your comments. These were also my original comments that started this topic going.

quote:
So if God has foreknowledge of the outcome of our choices, the question is does He also know what we will choose? Since we have freewill I would have to say no. God knows what the outcome of our choice will be, but to preserve our freewill does not know what our choice will be.

God knows all the 'what ifs' and is ready for any of them them. But he does not know which "if" we will choose.

The original question in relation to this was, whether God knew that Lucifer would fall/sin, and that man would fall/sin.

The answer then is that God did not know that Lucifer would fall/sin, and He did not know that man would fall/sin. God certainly did not plan nor purpose that either should sin. Sin was not inevitable, nor was it inescapable, it was not even probable, it was only possible.

When a free moral agent is created, no amount of Foreknowledge can destine/foreknow the choice of such a being. Foreknowledge may know all the variables, and it is precisely the variables that establish the level of the 'freedom' that such a moral agent has. Where there is no variable there is no freedom. A foreknowledge that 'knows' which variable a free moral agent will choose establishes the fact that the agent was not free to choose, and therefore was not a free moral agent, and the idea of choice is illusionary.

Since the fall/sin this equation is more complicated, because there is many times when a man thinks he is choosing of his own free will, while he is only being a slave to his own lusts or desires, etc. The choices that such a one makes are easily known since they are but the outworking of known factors. This is where God steps in often to bring a man to a position where he can put him on neutral ground so that such could exercise his/her free will and choose salvation.

Such knowledge is based on understanding and no previews.

Mike do you agree now?

Shalom

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/15/03 05:00 PM

John, thank you. I agree that once sin entered the picture, now that we are born slaves to sin, we do not have the freedom to choose not to sin. We sin naturally, instinctively, automatically. Of our own accord we cannot not sin. We born slaves to sin, self and Satan. We are far from free moral agents.

We have but one choice in life and that is to choose Jesus as our personal Lord and Saviour. Otherwise we sin by default. We do not have to choose to sin in order to sin, all we have to do to sin is not choose Jesus and we sin without effort or choice.

Does God foreknow the depths of our sin if we refuse to choose Jesus? I believe He does. Not because He's good at deducing the course of sin or because He knows us well enough to predict the outcome, but because He knows the end from the beginning - again, like watching a rerun. Knowing the future does not rob us of our freedom to choose Jesus, which is our only choice.

There are many examples in the Bible where God forewarned people of choices they were going to make, but the warning did not make them do it and neither did it prevent them from doing it. Judas is a perfect example of this point. Did Jesus know him well enough to guess his future course of action or did Jesus know the end from the beginning? And what about the prophecy? I choose to believe Jesus knows what is in man and doesn't need anyone to tell Him.

John
2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/15/03 05:12 PM

quote:

Such knowledge is based on understanding and no previews.

John, I agree with you for the most part, but need to clarify a few points.

First, since freewill always allows the possibility of disobedience, in the case of man and Satan, God would have a plan already in mind for the chance that rebellion did occur.

Next, I do believe God has foreknowledge of more than understanding. History has shown that God’s interaction with man has been very measured and calculated. This demonstrates more than understanding, but a specific knowledge of the result of each action.

So I believe God can see the future of choices we make based on a view or preview of the outcome.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/16/03 05:12 AM

Thank you Lobo and Mike

Lobo First,

quote:
Since freewill always allows the possibility of disobedience, in the case of man and Satan, God would have a plan already in mind for the chance that rebellion did occur.

Fully agreed. That means that God knows all the 'what ifs' and is ready for any of them.

Next,

quote:
I do believe God has foreknowledge of more than understanding. History has shown that God’s interaction with man has been very measured and calculated. This demonstrates more than understanding, but a specific knowledge of the result of each action.

So I believe God can see the future of choices we make based on a view or preview of the outcome.

What is a view or preview that gives knowledge that is more than understanding? What intelligence is it that brings it about, if it is above God's own understanding and God cannot understand it? If he cannot understand it how can he know it? If he does understand it how is it above his understanding?

Here, I would like you to give me understanding so that I may understand you, or I will never know what you propose to be knowledge that is more than understanding, which means that it lacks understanding. So what kind of knowledge is it that is more precise when it lacks understanding? I do not know of a knowledge that is greater than understanding when it is fully understood. And how can we understand that there is such knowledge that is more than understanding, even the understanding of God, if God does not understand it?

Knowledge is not truly knowledge until it is understood. Where there is no understanding there is no true knowledge. I think that people today watch too much TV.

The fact that God's interaction with man has been very measured and calculated is the very reason to realise that it is fully understood.

Perhaps understanding is not understood.

Shalom?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/16/03 05:30 AM

I've enjoyed our discussion thus far, but I doubt we're going to have harmony of thought on this issue, which is okay sinse we all agree the great controversy is going to end according to God's plan of salvation. How He can know it ahead of time is probably a mystery.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/16/03 05:41 AM

Mike it is not meaningful for one to profess that which one does not understand, or otherwise one is professing to understand that which is supposed to be a mystery to others.

There can be no growth in such a position. I think you are worth more than that.

When has God professed that his knowledge is above, or other than his understanding?

Shalom

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/16/03 06:58 AM

To all,

It sounds like we are coming closer together on our understanding. When John said, "God knows all the 'what ifs' and is ready for any of them," he echoed my thoughts exactly and I sense others on this thread agree. Perhaps that is all we really know. Whether the future is actually knowable; or whether, as my cousin believes, God made Lucifer and Adam for the specific purpose of demonstrating how bad sin really is (to free Him from worrying about it arising at some inopportune time down the road); or whether God is playing it by ear, we really have no way to know.

I do feel that discussions like this are a valuable tool for learning more about God and His word.

Bob Lee

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/16/03 03:10 PM

Bob Lee, thanx for sharing. God is truly deep and wide and hard to know. But as a Friend and Father and Brother and Comforter He's wonderfully knowable and likeable and loveable. Thank you Jesus!

John, I wasn't trying to bow out of the discussion, and I agree that what God knows about the future is based on His perfect understanding of all things - including the future. But I'm pretty sure we perceive this topic slightly differently. I believe the future is, for God, like watching a rerun, whereas you appear to believe He doesn't know the future, but that He is really good at figuring it out one generation at a time.

Here's a passage that tells me God knew Jesus would have to die to save mankind way before our first parents sinned.

1 Peter
1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;
1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/16/03 05:43 PM

quote:

What is a view or preview that gives knowledge that is more than understanding? What intelligence is it that brings it about, if it is above God's own understanding and God cannot understand it? If he cannot understand it how can he know it? If he does understand it how is it above his understanding?

John, I think you misunderstood my comments about a preview vs. understanding. Maybe it was I who misunderstood your use of “understanding” as well. I thought you meant understanding in the sense of prediction. In other words, I look at the cloud-covered sky and have “understanding” that it will rain. That is not knowing, that is piecing the available clues together and making an informed prediction. That is how I though you were using the term understanding.

I don’t believe God predicts what will happen based on the available evidence. I believe He can see actually what will happen before it happens.

So yes, He does have the ability to see what choices we will make, but to preserve freewill does not use that ability. Just like Jesus had the “ability” to save himself from the cross and wipe out everyone trying to kill Him, He did not use that ability.

So I believe God can actually see the future of all mankind, but only uses this ability in relation to the outcome of our choices once we have chosen, not to know what we will choose.

So if you meant understanding as in and actual view of the future and not just piecing together of the available evidence, then I agree with you.

I believe God understands everything, but the difference is where He gets His information.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/20/03 12:02 AM

Thank you Mike, Lobo and Boblee for your comments.

Lobo you said,

quote:

John, I think you misunderstood my comments about a preview vs. understanding. Maybe it was I who misunderstood your use of “understanding” as well. I thought you meant understanding in the sense of prediction. In other words, I look at the cloud-covered sky and have “understanding” that it will rain. That is not knowing, that is piecing the available clues together and making an informed prediction. That is how I though you were using the term understanding.

I don’t believe God predicts what will happen based on the available evidence. I believe He can see actually what will happen before it happens.

Thank you Lobo for giving us understanding in what you meant. That would be a conjecture, based on a little understanding. When it comes to sinners that is the way they operate. We must not suppose that God thinks in those terms, with him is complete understanding. Where there is complete understanding there is true knowledge. As I have previously commented, the word ‘predict’ does not do justice to God’s knowledge.

then you said,

quote:

So yes, He does have the ability to see what choices we will make, but to preserve freewill does not use that ability. Just like Jesus had the “ability” to save himself from the cross and wipe out everyone trying to kill Him, He did not use that ability.

So I believe God can actually see the future of all mankind, but only uses this ability in relation to the outcome of our choices once we have chosen, not to know what we will choose.

I believe God understands everything, but the difference is where He gets His information.

Well Lobo you do agree that for freewill to exist God may not foresee it. However, freewill is not something that exists just because God closes his eyes to something he can see or knows. Knowledge with God is not something that he picks up or leaves, or goes to look up somewhere, or puts on a different set of glasses, or turns on or off a different program. Knowledge/understanding is integral to God.

Knowledge/understanding is integral to the process of creation.
When God creates he establishes the scope, the function, the means and ways, the purpose, the habitat, the manner of existence, and on and on. Thus God has complete understanding/knowledge of his creation; past, present, future. To know that something will malfunction at a certain point is to mean that he created it knowingly with such an inherent flaw, or purpose. Failure to know/understand any aspect of what he made would inevitably result in malfunction sooner or later unless it happens to be recognised and corrected before it happens. These are fundamental realities of any creation. When God finished creating he beheld it and said that it was good. Everything was functioning as it was meant to be.

When God created freewill/choice, knowledge is integral part of that too.
Knowledge/understanding is integral part of all that God creates. Thus when he created freewill/choice he set the domain, the function, the means and ways, the authority and responsibility, and as has been said in order for freewill to exist, he excluded ability to know what that person will choose. He did put boundaries on it. He did set the choices between which it may choose. He did establish its authority and domain. He also established the conditions under which such free will would remain free, and under which it would loose it's freedom, and under which it may regain it's freedom. He established two choices. Hence he knows the choices possible, but not which choice will be exercised.

Did excluding ability to know what the person will choose, create the inevitability of malfunction?
The fundamental thought of malfunction in creation is not its possibility but its inevitability; that means the inescapable inability to function properly. However, that is not the case with the freewill/choice that God created. Excluding his ability to know what choice will be made did not create inevitability for malfunction because God did the following. He charged them with the authority and responsibility of the governance of the choice and made them fully capable to fulfil it. Therefore, there was no inevitability of malfunction. God further provided the boundaries of the consequences of the wrong choice and provided a way for it to be rectified and restored. In other words, it was a known and managed risk. There was accountability and hence the possibility of sin (unfaithfulness).

He established the basis by which such freewill may operate, namely faith.
Every ability must have a basis or means whereby it operates. In order for freewill to be free, its own ability or power to function must be subject to the will and at the same time empower the will. Such is the position of faith. Thus faith and the will modulate each other. The will then rules and directs faith and faith empowers the will. Faith cannot exist without freewill and freewill cannot exist without faith. (Many think that faith is just a temporary thing we exercise until we get there. That is a wrong concept of faith.) Faith is the fundamental and essential ingredient to being a Son of God. It is the forever-essential ingredient to being part of the kingdom of heaven. For without faith it is impossible to please him, whether on earth or heaven.

Faith must have a place of repose.
In order for faith to have life it must have a place of repose; that is it must have someone or something that is trusted. Whatever faith is placed in, that becomes its source. God's design for the operation of the will and faith is that the will should repose faith in God. He that effects his will and faith thus becomes faithful.

Why did God give his judicial beings a choice?
Though there were only two choices, they were magnanimous in nature. These few words only begin to unveil the principles. Faith is the essential ingredient to everything that is Godly. When God created freewill beings, his purpose was that they would all grow to the fullness and stature of Christ. That they would grow to faithfulness. All of the fruits of the spirit depend upon the true operation of will and faith. Thus God's purpose and desire was that his creation would share in his divine nature, which is faithful.

God is in the business of establishing reliable the unpredictable.
To establish; ascertain, make certain, set firm, make permanent, that which cannot be predicted. Some may think that the presence of freewill and faith would forever keep heaven at risk. However that is not the case. While freewill and faith begins at an immature place, it is the co-operative work of the person and God to nurture, develop, establish, mature and ripen the will and faith unto faithfulness. He that is faithful is steadfast, unchanging, firm, dependable, always true. He that is faithful has overcome, and the primary image of God in which he created him is fulfilled, for God is faithful. It was and is God's purpose to nurture, develop and mature each person's will and faith unto faithfulness. He searches the heart and tries the reigns. Thus God is bringing that which was a risk, to become that which is most reliable; faithfulness. 'And they loved not their lives unto death.' The security of heaven is not established on abstract knowledge but on faithfulness.

Sin was entirely unnecessary.
It was not necessary for anyone to sin in order to become faithful. Proverbs 8:22-31 shows us this. The entrance of sin did not alter God's purpose in making men faithful. It did raise the cost.

Faith being broken, the will had no more power.
Through falsehood and lies sin entered by the breaking of faith. But faith being broken, the will had no more power (for faith is the power of the will), and became subject to lower nature. Lust, desires, emotions, feelings, appetite, etc now began to rule the will, instead of it ruling them. Thus man became a slave to sin. Distrust entered and the will did not have the power to summon faith to its side. Spiritually/practically speaking, man became an animal and lost his person. It was only the contradictory element of God's spirit working upon man that prevented entire death of person

The plan of salvation provided for a way to bring faith back to life and restore its rightful place of repose, so that man may have a free will again and be a person. In this manner faith is the victory that overcomes the world

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
I hope this will open up some windows of thought, but I gather there will be questions.

Shalom

[ May 20, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/22/03 06:14 AM

quote:

Well Lobo you do agree that for freewill to exist God may not foresee it. However, freewill is not something that exists just because God closes his eyes to something he can see or knows. Knowledge with God is not something that he picks up or leaves, or goes to look up somewhere, or puts on a different set of glasses, or turns on or off a different program. Knowledge/understanding is integral to God.

I’m afraid it is John. God has the power and authority to remove freewill and do what he wants. Yet He has chosen to give His created being freewill. However, in doing this God had to not influence the outcome of man’s freewill choice, because then it wouldn’t be freewill. So even though God could decide to remove freewill and know what choice all will make, He chose to not do that. So yes, this is an ability God has that He is choosing not to use.

Again, this is exactly the same as Jesus ABILITY to save Himself from the cross, but CHOSE not to.

Also, God also knew that giving freewill would also create the possibility of rebellion.

Posted By: Darius

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/22/03 12:40 AM

quote:
Originally posted by <Lobo>:
I’m afraid it is John. God has the power and authority to remove freewill and do what he wants.

I assume that you are also saying that God has the power and the authority to stop being God. Is that your position as well? If not, why not?

Darius

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/22/03 01:23 AM

quote:

I assume that you are also saying that God has the power and the authority to stop being God. Is that your position as well? If not, why not?

He has the power and authority to do what He wants. He had the power to not create the world and man, and He has the authority to break any of the rules He has put in place, because they are His rules.

So by this supreme being creating the world and man He has placed himself in the role of God. Since it is already done, He will always be the creator, but could choose to no longer be God. I’m not sure how that would play out, but He could do that.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/22/03 02:08 AM

quote:
I’m afraid it is John. God has the power and authority to remove freewill and do what he wants. Yet He has chosen to give His created being freewill. However, in doing this God had to not influence the outcome of man’s freewill choice, because then it wouldn’t be freewill. So even though God could decide to remove freewill and know what choice all will make, He chose to not do that. So yes, this is an ability God has that He is choosing not to use.

Again, this is exactly the same as Jesus ABILITY to save Himself from the cross, but CHOSE not to.

Also, God also knew that giving freewill would also create the possibility of rebellion.

Thank you Lobo. I fully agree with what you said here. It is definitely so. It is true that God can create without freewill or he can remove the ability of freewill and know fully what the logistic will be, for indeed he would then programme it. That is not the question, and there is no question with what you said here.

The issue being dealt with was that when God chose to create freewill he had to exclude his ability to foreknow it in order to do it. This is what you also said. I did not mean to limit God in what he created, nor did I think that the reason why he created freewill was because he was not able to do otherwise. What I said is that God could not create freewill and still have the ability to know its choice, or to have the ability to look it up somewhere. In creation that is impossible. That God has the ability to remove freewill is a given. But as choice is only possible where there is freewill, the idea of knowing the choice where there is no freewill is out of the equation for the choice has been removed. All this is in context of creation.

What is wonderful is how God's purpose in creating free will was that such should become faithful. It is marvellous how God purposed to establish fully known, reliable and faithful, that which was initially an unpredictable free will. And that one should and could become so without violating free will. See section above titled God is in the business of establishing reliable the unpredictable.

Another thing that we have not discussed here is the interaction of God's will with the will of his created beings and how this can alter the will without violating it

Shalom

Posted By: Darius

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/22/03 02:25 AM

quote:
Originally posted by <Lobo>:
He has the power and authority to do what He wants. He had the power to not create the world and man, and He has the authority to break any of the rules He has put in place, because they are His rules.

Actually, they are not His rules. They are the rules of his government. As a just ruler He cannot violate the laws of His government, for that would reduce Him to the worst of earth's dictators who are not bound by the laws of their government.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/22/03 03:06 AM

Lobo & Darius

for God cannot be tempted with evil,

yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

There is much more to God than POWER. There is a wonderful person. It is not rules that it is about, but a wonderful PERSON.

Shalom

[ May 21, 2003, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/23/03 06:34 AM

quote:

Actually, they are not His rules. They are the rules of his government. As a just ruler He cannot violate the laws of His government, for that would reduce Him to the worst of earth's dictators who are not bound by the laws of their government.

Darious, You are applying your own values to what God can or cannot do. We are discussing His ability, not what we think He will do based on history and our current knowledge of Him. So the idea of how God will “look” to other created being or man if He violates His own rules is not germane to His ability.

As having all power, regardless of how this makes him appear, He has the ability to do whatever he wants. Period!

What God can do and what we think He can do while maintaining His current governmental scripture, are two different things.

Now, if you want to discuss what He can do in the confines of His current “government”, which is based on our current knowledge of such, then let’s do that, but that is an entirely different issue.

John, I agree with your post. My only point is that I believe God already had a plan in place for the chance that His new created beings would rebel. So what I’m saying is that without removing freewill or looking into the future, God was ready for rebellion should it occur.

As for your last question; that is why it takes a margin of faith with the available evidence to believe and trust in God. That allows Him to not unduly influence our choice. However, once we have made the choice to serve Him He can and does influence our choices to a much greater extent, but since we chose that path, it still supports our freewill.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/23/03 04:54 AM

quote:
John, I agree with your post. My only point is that I believe God already had a plan in place for the chance that His new created beings would rebel. So what I’m saying is that without removing freewill or looking into the future, God was ready for rebellion should it occur.

Agreed. My original statement for this topic "God was ready for the 'if man should sin', but he did not foresee that the 'if' will happen." He did foresee that it could happen, but not that it will happen. So, as we said God knew all the 'what ifs' and was ready for any of them. "Was ready" means that he knew what it would involve and that he was willing and prepared for it.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/23/03 10:19 PM

Knowing the "what if's" based on understanding doesn't require divine foreknowledge. Anybody possessed of at least ordinary insight could sit down and make a similar list. That includes the Devil. In what way then does God differ from the rest? In what way does His foreknowledge give us peace of mind? If He's winging it as things unfold then how can I trust His prophetic insights? especially Nahum 1:9?

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/24/03 12:45 AM

Mike your comments seem to miss the information in my post of May 19, 2003 05:02 PM. Could you please tell me what that post means to you.

Shalom

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/26/03 02:37 PM

God's knowledge became significant in my life when I was six years old. I was taught from birth that God sees and knows everything, but it was not until I was six years of age that I witnessed the benefit of God's knowledge in such a way that I received a key lesson in my life.

The occasion was simple. My Aunt being of marriageable age was center of attention of a number of young men in the church, and hence a fair amount of conversation occurred in our home (a 9'x12' room). There was a lot of discussion of who was the right one, as well as whom she liked/loved. As it happened she liked/loved one fellow that my mother declared no good. Then one time a fellow came from the country that my mother said was good, but she did not like him. Well, that sounded interesting to me and I began to pay attention to what was going on. Here we were, mother said 'no good' but she loved him, and then mother said 'good' and she did not like him. I wondered how is one supposed to know?

The answer came several weeks later in a simple manner but very profound for me. On Sabbath he had asked her to meet him the following day at 5pm at a little Park near us. (Secretly he prayed and asked God for a sign; if she was for him that she would come, and if not, that she does not). It was Sunday and at our home there was a lot of arguing. My Aunt was vehement that she will not go, while my mom was trying to convince her not to be so. Then my Aunt declared she was settled she was not going. Late afternoon supper was being prepared when they realized they were missing a necessary ingredient to ready supper. (We had no fridge; stores were closed.) There was nothing to it but to go and borrow some from a sister in the church that lived near us. (This happened to be right beside the Park.)

My Aunt went to get the ingredient, and as she was leaving she made sure my mom knew she was not going to the Park. As she arrived at the sister's home she heard a lot of yelling and a boot flying and smashing into the door which she was approaching. (The husband of the sister was an unbeliever and drunkard and chose this moment to have a brawl.) Well, my Aunt did not feel like knocking on the door just then and thought she would wait a while for things to cool down inside. While she was waiting she found herself standing facing the Park. It was now about an hour past the time she was supposed to have met him, and she became curious if he was still there. She found him sitting on a bench witnessing to someone. It was then that my Aunt had an inner realization that she had been fighting the Lord. I do not remember what happened with supper that night.

Observations,
1. God's fatherly interference in my Aunts affairs.
2. Don't expect your feelings, emotions and desires to be in agreement with God's will. These must be taught to appreciate his way.
3. God's arrangement of circumstances to bring my Aunt to realization of issues.

The lessons I learned from that were to set the future course for me as I resolved and made a solemn promise that when I come to that time in my life I will ask the Lord to choose for me. I realized that feelings, emotions, likes, and dislikes are not to be listened to. (She liked/loved the other fellow, but he was not the one. She did not like this fellow, yet he was the one.) On the other hand I questioned one's ability to know. (While my mom seemed right, what were her conclusions based on? She had taught me we couldn't know the heart of another or one's own heart (which is deceitful), but God knows the heart.) Hence my resolution to seek from the Lord. I did find it wonderful that we can avail ourselves of God's knowledge and wisdom, and need not go about guessing. God has a plan and purpose for each one of us, if we will let him lead us.

While perhaps this experience may appear to have little to do with God's foreknowledge, it is a preamble to my experience, which is to follow, which reveals the significance much more.

Shalom

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 05/27/03 07:26 PM

John, thanx for that delightful story. God is good. But not all stories have such a sweet ending. In my case there was no doubt in my mind it was God's will that I marry my wife. Many were the signs. But it ended in divorce after several years of hard times. However, I still do not doubt it was God's will. I learned many valuable lessons through it all. I am a better person now. God is good.

It was God who chose King Saul. It was God who created Lucifer. It was God who created Adam and Eve. It was Jesus who permitted Judas to manage the money bag. And the list goes on. Obviously then God's will is very complex. But by faith we may learn and grow in grace.

I look forward to the continuation of your story. Thank you for sharing.

Posted By: Darius

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/04/03 04:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Lobo, I would like to add that God will not allow us to make choices that will ultimately upset the outcome of the great controversy. He will either exert superhuman effort to influence us to choose the best course of action or put us in an early grave to prevent us from making a choice that would upset His plans for the outcome of the great controversy. Balaam and the talking donkey is an example of how far God is willing to go to prevent us from making the wrong decisions. This does not imply all wrong decisions are going to upset God's ultimate plan.

At the base you seem to be saying that if God cannot win fairly He will be forced to play foul. Balaam's experience is not apropos to the question. If the entire human race were to decide to follow Lucifer God, under the rules He has imposed, would have to accept that decision. Whether that would mean He lost the controversy depends on whether one thinks the controversy is restricted to what occurs on earth, or involves the entire universe.

However, the notion that God stands prepared to "rig the elections" is very unpalatable.

Posted By: Darius

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/04/03 04:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by <Lobo>:
As having all power, regardless of how this makes him appear, He has the ability to do whatever he wants. Period!

And that is your opinion. Thanks for sharing. I see you do not agree with Jesus' assessment that a tree can only bear after its kind. You seem to think that a just God can act unjustly. When we consider that the central issue in this controversy is the nature of God, we should be careful what images of God we project.

Posted By: Darius

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/04/03 04:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by <Lobo>:
So the fact that God takes certain actions to keep His plan moving to the correct outcome proves that He knows the outcome, which means He has foreknowledge.

On the contrary, if I know the outcome I do not have to take certain actions to ensure that outcome. My decision to take certain actions to affect the outcome is susceptible of only one interpretation.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/05/03 06:21 AM

Darius, I am convinced, based on the many accounts recorded in the Bible, that God is in control - not sin, not self, not Satan, not fate, not choice. God alone is in control. The outcome of the great controversy will prove God is love and disprove Satan's accusations to the contrary. God does not resort to violating our freedom to choose sin or salvation, nevertheless He will not allow the consequences of our choices (or Satan's choices) to interfere with the end results of the great controversy. We manage the choices, but God manages the consequences (even to the point of bending the laws of nature if necessary).

Nothing takes God by surprise. He's not some hapless genious wringing His hands in a flood of sweat desperately hoping nothing goes too terribly wrong. God does not doubt the outcome of the great controversy. He knows exactly how things will turn out in the end and everything He needs to do between now and then in order to guarantee that outcome. The Flood, Sodom, Joseph, Balaam, David, Judas, Jesus, Paul and the entire Revelation are perfect examples of God's ultimate foreknowledge and His proactive involvement in order to ensure the one and only correct outcome of the great controversy.

Posted By: Darius

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/04/03 07:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
He's not some hapless genious wringing His hands in a flood of sweat desperately hoping nothing goes too terribly wrong.

I think we should pause to note the approach you have taken here (I hope unwittingly). You are essentially saying that unless God is the way you described the only possibility is that He is "some hapless genious wringing His hands in a flood of sweat desperately hoping nothing goes too terribly wrong." This changes the debate and puts others on the defensive for, if they disagree with your view, they now run the risk of being painted as holding to the ridiculous alternative. The truth is that this is not the only alternative.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/05/03 04:53 PM

Good point. Sorry for the unintended insult. Other intelligent options have been shared. Personally though I an convinced God knows the end from the beginning like watching a rerun on TV.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/06/03 02:07 AM

quote:

Good point. Sorry for the unintended insult. Other intelligent options have been shared. Personally though I an convinced God knows the end from the beginning like watching a rerun on TV.

Mike, does that include our choices? Does God know beforehand what we will choose? If so, how does that affect our freewill to choose?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/06/03 02:33 AM

Yes, it would have to include our choices, otherwise how was Jesus able to foretell Peter's denial and Judas' betrayal, etc? Just because God knows the end from the beginning does not mean He violates our freedom to choose. His foreknowledge merely allows Him to know what we and He will do because He has already seen it happen. How do you explain foreknowledge and prophecy?

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/06/03 07:59 AM

I would like to repeat the obvious: If it can be known by any manner or means whatever what I am going to do in the future, then I have no choice in the matter.

It's like rerunning a movie. Once the movie is recorded, the actions cannot change. The actors no longer have any choice in what they do or say because it's already done and recorded. But as many TV programs clearly demonstrate, during the original casting of the movie, the actors often depart from the script and say or do things which can be very humorous. Sometimes many takes are made of the same scene in order to eliminate those "flubs." It seems to me that illustrations should be taken from the original take, not from a recorded re-run.

Mike, you listed a number of people about whom God seemed to know their future actions. Why didn't you list Saul who was chosen by God to lead Israel but was later rejected because He turned away from God? You did list Sodom, but God said He would not destroy Sodom if ten faithful people could be found in the city. But you didn't list Jonah who was told by the same God that Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days. In Jonah's case, enough people were found in Nineveh that God did change His mind! You listed David whom God promised the kingdom forever, though by Solomon's time God added the disclaimer: "if you are faithful." Still later, David's dynasty was rejected completely.

To do a fair study of a subject, it seems you ought to list the converse illustrations also and explain how they fit in your paradigm.

Bob Lee

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/06/03 07:28 PM

Bob, you've raised some good objections which deserve detailed attention. But first can you please explain how God was able to predict the future choices of the people I listed above? and how He is able to prophesy future events? Thank you.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/07/03 03:14 AM

Mike,

quote:
Good point. Sorry for the unintended insult. Other intelligent options have been shared. Personally though I an convinced God knows the end from the beginning like watching a rerun on TV.

I have presented intelligent reality of how God knows and understands past, present and future, and how he foretells prophecy, and how that interplays with free will. You have never commented on what my post of May 19, 2003 05:02 PM means to you.

Very well, would you please give us an intelligent explanation how God's foreknowledge and free will operates under your system of thought. Just making statements of TV reruns is not intelligent. Would you please give us understanding.

I would be happy to answer any of your questions, after you give us your case.

Shalom

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/07/03 08:12 AM

Redundant posting.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/07/03 08:13 AM

John, sorry about not addressing your May 19 post more directly. You also raise some good points. It's just that I'm not sure how God can determine the future choices of third and fourth generation children based on what He knows about grand and great grandfathers and mothers. Unless of course God's ability to foretell the future is based on more than mere intutition. The only thing that makes intelligent sense to me concerning God's ability to prophesy the future choices and consequences of free moral agents is if God knows the end from the beginning - as though the future were history.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/07/03 05:19 PM

Mike, I am sorry you feel it is redundant posting. I do not know whether you realize that you have never given us any intelligent understanding of how God knows the end from the beginning - as though the future were history, or a rerun on TV? This thought only comes up against a wall and the best one can do is write it off to mystery. This is what I see you doing. But you feel it must be so because of "how otherwise could it be". That's a resignation to the unknown.

I have never spoken of intuition, nor have I spoken about inherited traits. These are none-issue. I have spoken about "understanding". Where there is Understanding, intuition is not needed. Intuition is part of process of learning understanding. Knowledge based on true understanding is the only knowledge there is that is true.

God knows and understands fully the scope of his created beings, and the powers he has given them. He knows the scope of sin, and the scope of righteousness. He knows the way of life and the way of death, and he knows how to save from death to life. When you know the full scope of something and the workings thereof there are no surprises, and you can plan and have purpose without surprise. You can plan with variables or without depending on your purpose. In the scripture we find both well exemplified.

You will find as you reflect that all the variable plans of God have to do with our free will in 'salvation'; that is, sin or not; faith or unbelief. On the other hand all of God's fixed plans do not involve sin. They involve the course of this world without trammeling on the person's choice in salvation. Having said that, I wish to say that God has exerted strong influence on each person to salvation.

Shalom

[ June 07, 2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/08/03 06:59 AM

John, I accidentally posted my last post twice and I deleted the first one which is what I meant by redundant posting. I am so sorry it sounded like I was referring to the thoughts you shared. God forbid that I should be so rude. Please forgive me for the misunderstanding. I truly do value the things you share.

It is true, as you wrote, that I cannot explain how God can be omniscient or omnipresent or even omnipotent. I accept these things by faith - because I simply want to and not because I can prove it or explain it. I think I grasp your thoughts on God's ability to know the future based on His divine understanding of created beings endowed with freedom of choice.

It's just that I'm not sure why you're unwilling to agree with the idea that God knows the end from the beginning like watching a rerun on TV or knowing the future as though it were history. The Bible makes it clear to me that God knows everything thre is to know about us before we are conceived in the womb and our choices and their consequences before we are born. But His knowing this ahead of time does not rob us of our freedom to choose a different course.

Perhaps another question we need to address is - Can we trust an omniscient God not to hinder, impede, obstruct, frustrate or tamper with our ability and freedom to choose? Does His ability to foretell our future choices (and His ability to manage the consequences of our choices) rob us of our ability to choose a different course? especially when He forewarns us ahead of time (as with Judas and many others)?

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/08/03 06:23 AM

Mike,

You asked, "please explain how God was able to predict the future choices of the people I listed above." You listed the Flood, Sodom, Joseph, Balaam, David, Judas, Jesus, Paul and the entire Revelation as examples of God's apparent knowledge of a future choice. Of these examples, only Jesus' prediction of what Judas would do qualifies as possible knowledge of a future choice. However, Judas had already made the choice. Jesus simply let Judas know that He was aware of the plot and urged him (Judas) to reconsider. The flood and Sodom were God's revelation of what He planned to do. The only relevant choices Joseph made were to serve God and leave Potipher's wife alone. All the rest seems to be circumstances arranged by God. That takes a decision and action by God, not foreknowledge of choices made by Joseph or the Pharoah in the case of the butler and the baker.

If I remember correctly, Balaam was coerced to change his mind about about the blessings/curses he would pronounce on the Israelites. In that case Balaam didn't even get to make a choice, much less have that choice foreknown. David was picked to be king after Saul, but as I said last time, Saul was picked by God also, but that didn't work out and by their actions, David's progeny blocked God's promise of an eternal throne from continuing.

As for "prophecies" about Jesus, nearly all of them occurred after the fact. In other words, there is no evidence that the OT prophecies which were applied to Him were meant as prophecies of the messiah. Only after Jesus came was it noted that they could be applied to Jesus. As for Paul, I don't recall any prophecies at all about Paul. Perhaps you meant Peter and the rooster incident. This and Isaiah's prophecy about Cyrus are the only examples I am aware of that definitely indicate the possibility that God really can have knowledge of future events not controlled by Him.

When these two incidents are stacked up against the dozens of prophecies which did not come to pass and the many times God changed His mind and God's statements that there are things He would forget, I have to believe that these two incidents are also in the catagory of "conditional prophecies" like the rest of God's promises and threats.

As for the book of Revelation, it is an outline of what God plans to do. Off the top, I can't think of a single reference in Revelation where God reveals the choice an individual will make. Did I miss something?

On a related topic, you also asked a question about trusting an omniscient God to behave Himself. But I would ask, "where in scripture do you find any indication that God is omniscient?"

Bob Lee

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/13/03 01:20 AM

quote:

All the rest seems to be circumstances arranged by God. That takes a decision and action by God, not foreknowledge of choices made by Joseph or the Pharoah in the case of the butler and the baker.

Bob, are you telling us that God arranging circumstances doesn’t violate man’s freewill, but God knowing what choices man will make or having foreknowledge does?

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/13/03 07:50 AM

To Lobo,

You ask, "Bob, are you telling us that God arranging circumstances doesn’t violate man’s freewill, but God knowing what choices man will make or having foreknowledge does?"

Of course.

Maybe "violate" is not the right word. What I believe is that if God knows or even if it can be known what I am going to do or decide in the future, that knowledge completely negates the possibility that I can have "free will." God's arrangement of external circumstances such as Saul's encounter on the road to Damascus is completely independant of my free will (or Saul's).

Bob Lee

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/14/03 02:00 AM

So would you then agree that God, knowing the choice these individuals had made, would then use them to His own purpose causing them to do things?

Read these texts:

Romans 11:7 that “GOD GAVE THEM a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day”?

God made the Pharaoh in Egypt not let Israel go by hardening his heart just so He could witness to all Egyptians through signs: Ex 10:1

God then hardened the hearts of the Egyptian army so they would pursue Israel into the desert. Again, just so he could witness to them in a bigger way: Ex 17:7

God caused a large army of gentile forces to wage war against Israel just so they could “destroy them totally”: Josh 11:20

“9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.” 2 Thess 2

All these texts indicated that God caused people to do things or think things to support His purpose. The last text confirms my understanding that God only does this once they have already made their choice (vs 10 above “those who are perishing”).

So do you agree with this idea?

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/14/03 08:29 AM

Lobo,

I notice a clear discrepency in scripture between things God has been observed doing or what God says about Himself versus what others say about Him. Often they are contradictory. All the examples you used above are what other people say about God. It's not clear that anyone saw God do any of them nor are any what God says He did or will do. I have come to dismiss those things that are credited to God which are contrary to what God says about Himself or what God has been observed doing. (For instance, people say God is omnipresent. Yet contrary to that characteristic, He has been observed walking in a garden, seated on a chair, flying in an airplane, wrestling with a human, and eating human food [flesh food at that]. I prefer to believe what people have actually observed or what God says than to assume God has characteristics people imagine He might have).

Your examples seem more like the idiomatic expressions such as "acts of God" or "God willing" that we use in our language today than a record of what God actually did.

Bob Lee

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/14/03 08:50 PM

Bob, it looks as though you and I have clearly explained our views and that they are clearly in contradiction. I believe God is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. You believe something quite different. It it clear to me that God has the abilitity to predict the future choices and consequences of mankind, and it is clear to you that He does not. But I praise God that we both agree God is in control and that when the great controversy is over sin will not arise again to torment us. Thank you Jesus.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/16/03 06:25 AM

"Truth is not truth until it is understood in truth."

Mike, sorry it is taking me so long to answer, we have had much company and I have not had time to respond. I hope to have some time shortly.

Shalom

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/16/03 06:36 AM

I'll be away for most of the summer. I'll miss studying with everyone. See ya later. God bless.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/16/03 08:48 PM

Bob, Am I to understand by your comment that what the bible writers indicated in their writings is only their opinion and does not reflect direct inspiration from God?

Or maybe you are using the same method of exegesis that some use for EGW? For example, if it states "I was shown", then it is from God, if not, It is EGW’s own opinion. Similarly, are you indicating that if it states “The Lord said” that it is accurate, if not, it is the writers own flawed “human” understanding?

You see, if you feel that the writers were not inspired in all that they documented, then you have to produce some criterion to use to determine what was inspired and what not. With your apparent view, and without a criterion, the interpretation of all scripture is left up for grabs to the doctrinal whims of anyone wishing to manipulate scripture for their own ends.

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/17/03 08:24 AM

Lobo,

How do you react when you read one text which says one thing and you read another which says something contradictory? II Samuel 24:1, for instance, says "the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, 'Go and take a census of Israel and Judah;'" but I Chronicles 20:1 says about the same story, "Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel." Also the creation story in Genesis 2 contradicts in many ways the story of Genesis 1. Are they both "inspired?"

Almost always the answers we get depend on the assumptions we make going in. Consider a similar problem in geometry: the whole thing is based on Euclid's five assumptions or postulates. But as those postulates are examined more closely, it is found that the fifth (about parallel lines meeting at infinity) is arbitrary. In fact several geometries are built on postulates that differ radically from Euclid's and some of them are actually useful in the real world.

In the current discussion, what do you assume "inspiration" means? Adventism has always assumed that it is the author who is inspired, not the words he/she wrote. Thus when Ezekiel saw God land by the river Kebar in His helicopter, he described it as best he could (Ez 1). But since no one had any idea what a helicopter was until a few years ago, scholars have made all sort of interesting interpretations of Ezekiel's description. Did Ezekiel mislead us by not saying "I saw God land in a helicopter?" No, we made some bad assumptions about what he said. I see a similar problem with most of the dissention we experience. We make an assumption (the Bible is verbally inspired, for instance), and interpret everything we read from that assumption. But like Euclid's fifth postulate, there is no good reason for making that assumption over others.

Don't get me wrong, if there are good Biblical or scientific reasons for making a particular assumption, then we do well to chose that one over all of it's rivals. Peter, for instance, says "prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." So it's reasonable to assume that all prophecy comes from God.

Obviously I have made some assumptions that are different from those you made or that Mike has made. I believe my assumptions are Biblically based, but I presume you believe yours are too. More to the point is another concept which I have come to believe and that is that God gives each of us the understanding which is most beneficial to our own needs. Several on this and other threads have indicated how much their belief has encouraged them. The main point I wish to make is not to change your mind, but to suggest to anyone who has trouble with the traditional view that there is another way of looking at the evidence.

Bob Lee

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/17/03 11:02 AM

We'll miss you too, Mike. God be with you. I'll look for you when you are back.

Here is a scripture to think about while you are out.

Shalom

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/17/03 11:09 AM

Lobo and Boblee, here is something to think about.

The reality of whether we 'understand in truth', is not dependent on the inspiration of the writer but on the inspiration of the reader.

Take heed therefore how ye hear:

Shalom

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/18/03 06:15 AM

Bob, good post.

As a way of offering yet another assumption, I contend that part of our difficulty is reconciling seemly contradictory biblical statements is the fact that, I assume, none of us here are Jewish or have that background. We read scripture and make assumptions based on our view of the world, which in the Christian world is based primarily on a Euro centric view and understanding. However, the bible writers were all Jewish and had a much different understanding of the world. They had an oral tradition that helped to explain many of these seemingly conflicting passages. They also understood the original Hebrew that the OT was written in, and they also had cultural norms that supported a more accurate understanding of scriptures as well.

So often what I believe many do is to say that the writers were not inspired, or offer some other explanation when they are not able to understand the passage or it seems to conflict with another. What they don’t realize is that scripture, in particular the OT, was not designed with non-Jews in mind. It was written with Israel in mind.

So before we decide that scripture is not inspired we should make sure we have all the information Israel did, and does, because chances are that we don’t have a very important piece of the puzzle. I personally have gone to Jewish sources many times and have been amazed at the depth and breadth of understanding many Jews have in relation to the OT scriptures.

So the point is that just because we don’t understand it doesn’t mean it is incorrect.

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/21/03 06:42 AM

Very good point Lobo, thank you.

You made a good point too, John. Thank you also.

Bob Lee

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 06/30/03 07:04 PM

Hello. I'll be around until Sunday morning. Then I'm gone for another two weeks. John, thank you for your last post to me. It was very appropriate in that my ministry uses outdoor adventure and training to help young people love Jesus more and more. And God again blessed big time. Thank you Jesus.

Bob Lee, your helicopter idea requires huge assumptions - doesn't it? Are you sure God's space ship isn't a AV-8B Harrier II? http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/3314/av8b.html

Seriously though, why can't we believe that God used the exact symbol Ezekiel saw? John also saw something that people have tried to say was a helicopter (Rev 9). Then if we want to interpret that symbol to mean a helicopter - fine (though I don't). But to say he saw a helicopter and used word pictures to describe what he couldn't comprehend is a little too sci-fi for my theological tastes.

Did God foresee the invention and use of helicopters and harriers? Of course He did! Did He show them to prophets in vision and allow them the freedom to describe them using pre-historic word pictures? I doubt it.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/01/03 02:00 PM

Welcome back Mike

Mike said:

quote:

John, It is true, as you wrote, that I cannot explain how God can be omniscient or omnipresent or even omnipotent. I accept these things by faith - because I simply want to and not because I can prove it or explain it.

Mike you said, "I accept these things by faith - because I simply want to and not because I can prove it or explain it." This means that you do not understand it. Is this what faith is? Is faith, believing what we want to believe? Is faith, believing what we want to believe about God? Here is a genuine problem in the concept of saving faith. Sometimes we say things that we do not really mean to say, but it is good to examine what we really mean.

God has never said that he is "omniscient", so that you should believe him that he is so. It is man's fabrication; moreover it is without wisdom and understanding. It is man's way of putting his difference with God into a mysterious package with a label.

God has never said that he is "omnipresent", so that you should believe him that he is so. It is man's fabrication; moreover it is without wisdom and understanding. It is man's way of putting his difference with God into a mysterious package with a label.

God has never said that he is "omnipotent", so that you should believe him that he is so. It is man's fabrication; moreover it is without wisdom and understanding. It is man's way of putting his difference with God into a mysterious package with a label.

It is one thing to believe God when he says something, even if we do not understand it fully. It is quite another thing for man to put things, that he does not know what to do with, in a package and then label it with something as if he understands it while it is a mystery to him.

When man uses definitions and words that God does not use in his revelation to us, he inevitably ends up saying other than God has revealed. Much of the time he makes confusion of it and concludes it in mystery. It is interesting how man chooses words that he himself does not understand what it all entails and/or how it can be so.

"Omni" is an undiscriminating word; it allows for no exceptions. By using these words one becomes indiscriminate.

God is not "omnipotent" for he is not able to force one to be faithful, or to believe him, or to trust him, or to be saved. Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

God is not "omnipresent" for he is not present in Satan, or in the unbeliever, or in idols. He is not present in trees, grass, sun, moon, or stars, unless one believes in pantheism. All these things his hands have made, but he is not in them. 1 Kings 19:11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake: 12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

God is not "omniscient" for he does not know a way that he can make one choose salvation and life. Isaiah 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not. (More on this in the next post)

Saving faith is: believing God and accepting what he tells us, even when it crosses our view and our understanding, especially of him and his ways. Saving Faith is, believing God for what he tells us. It is not, believing what we want to believe.

God has revealed to us his knowledge, understanding, and judgement. We do not need to fabricate or guess.

God has revealed to us his presence, and we do not need to be on our own, alone.

God has revealed to us his ability, power, and might, and we do not need to be helpless.

Let us not believe what we want to believe about God, but let us believe God.

Shalom

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/01/03 02:14 PM

Mike asked

quote:

It's just that I'm not sure why you're unwilling to agree with the idea that God knows the end from the beginning like watching a rerun on TV or knowing the future as though it were history. The Bible makes it clear to me that God knows everything there is to know about us before we are conceived in the womb and our choices and their consequences before we are born. But His knowing this ahead of time does not rob us of our freedom to choose a different course.

Your question Mike is somewhat mixed up. It does not differentiate between God's knowledge at creation before sin existed in relation to the freewill he created, and God's knowledge of future events since the fall when freewill was lost and the will became subject to lower nature.

My answer will first deal with the nature of knowledge, it's implications upon God, and its implications on freewill of created beings. This will be first discussed in the perspective before sin; this is a vital difference. Afterwards we will discuss man's situation after the fall, when freewill was lost. The abstract part makes no difference when.

Abstract knowledge/foreknowledge under all and any circumstances and for all times.
The following are realities of an abstract foreknowledge. An abstract knowledge is knowledge based on anything other than understanding. It is found in the idea that God knows the end from the beginning like watching a crystal ball, a rerun on TV or knowing the future as though it was history. I have referenced it in my opening posts to this thread. Any abstract knowledge has to be outside of God's understanding. As such it means it is not part of him, it does not proceed from his thoughts, his reasoning, or his understanding. This means that God derives his knowledge of future events through/from some other means. Any such means would simply entail that God is subject to it, and dependent on it. In fact it tells him what will be. God is therefore a slave to this and can do nothing about it. Whether he looks to it or not is irrelevant; he is subject to it. Simply put whatever it is that determines or tells the present or future would have the ultimate control. Any such book read or movie seen makes God an impotent observer. So, while this idea tries to make God omniscient and omnipotent in a fabulous way, the truth is that it establishes him that he really does not know/understand, and makes him impotent so that he cannot do anything about it. Therefore an abstract foreknowledge is entirely unacceptable, as in such a case God is only a puppet. Needless to say in such a scenario no one, including God, has any free will. In fact nothing really exists; all is abstract, including life.

If God is to be God, he needs to know what he understands and needs to understand what he knows. God's knowledge proceeds from his understanding. Without understanding there is no thought, and as such no life. Any knowledge outside of understanding is not reasonable.

Knowledge
Knowledge is not truly knowledge until it is understood. Where there is no understanding there is no true knowledge.

Knowledge, in order to be knowledge with understanding, has to be reasonable. If it is not reasonable it cannot be understood. Hence the simple reality that for something to be reasonable there has to be a reason. When there is a reason for sin, it ceases to be sin. Hence, for God to know and understand (when he was going to create free will in man) that man will sin (as opposed to 'could sin'), is to say that in creating, he created a cause/reason for sin; that the cause was a must and there is no choice. That means that such was planned and designed to sin. That is a self-cancelling impossibility. Sin can only be committed by one who has say/choice in the matter, which means, such is empowered to do otherwise. When a computer crashes or fails to perform a command properly we do not say that it sinned. We know that there is a bug somewhere in the program or it is a hardware failure. Neither can be called sin. It is a programming/manufacturing defect.

What is it that makes sin? Whatsoever is not of faith is sin; and, the just shall live by faith. Now our heavenly Father is just and faithful. Therefore in the very definition of sin is the answer to the fact that it cannot be foreknown, because the foundation of sin or righteousness is faith. Since it is of faith; it is not of knowledge.

If it could be known what will be chosen than it would not be free will but it would be a 'bent' to whatever it is predestined to. To repeat, as Boblee said, the obvious, 'If it can be known by any manner or means whatever, what will be chosen by a free will, then there is no choice in the matter.' If there is no choice in the matter there is no free will and there can be no sin.

So to conclude, it means that foreknowledge of what will be chosen and the ability of free will in that choice is mutually exclusive. Therefore the ability of God knowing what will be chosen and such still having the ability to choose otherwise is impossible in creation.

Knowledge based on understanding - in creation.
Psalms 136:5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

It is important to realise that when God creates anything, he knows or understands its function, scope, etc. In fact he has thought it up and designed it. When God created the ability of free will, he knew that he cannot/does not know what will be chosen. That is the essence of free will. That is what he wanted to create, and that is what he created. In creating such a free moral agent God established the basis of relationship that is to exist between him and such person. The basis of that relationship was faith and not knowledge. It was faith on the part of God as well as on the part of creation. In creating such, God created the highest that can be created. He created a being that he could fellowship with in spirit. This he did for the wonderful purpose of them becoming sons of God, and one with him.

Freewill after the fall?
Here is perhaps the greatest confusion. There are numerous factors; those who have lost their freewill - slaves to sin; those who are in the process of being set free by God so that they may choose life; and those who have been set free and have chosen life and are faithful.

Those who have lost their freewill - slaves to sin,

Those who are in the process of being set free by God so that they may choose life.

Those who have been set free and have chosen life and are faithful.

In summary therefore, "Omniscience" as commonly held is entirely unacceptable, because it's knowledge has to be abstract. Being abstract, by nature it denies knowledge since it is without understanding. It also denies the ability for God to do anything about it; moreover God ceases to be God. If "omniscience" were based on understanding, then there would be no such thing as sin or righteousness. In fact the life of "person" could not exist.

Therefore such a concept of "omniscience" is unscriptural for there are things that may not be known by God in order for God himself to exist as a person; in order for a person to exist; in order for faith to exist; in order for all the fruits of the spirit to exist-which is God's glory.

What shall I say to these things?
He knoweth what is in the darkness, and lives in the light. Hence he is able to bring us from darkness to light. He stands at the door and knocks, if any man will open the door, he will come in and sup with him. He is able to bring a lost soul to faithfulness, but he cannot do it without us opening the door. Who will open the door?

Shalom

[ July 01, 2003, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/01/03 02:22 PM

The question has been asked how the prophecy of Peter's denial could be.

Peter's denial:

Satan has sought to sift you as wheat.

I have prayed that your faith fail not.

Before the Rooster crows you shall deny me thrice.

Shalom

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/02/03 06:52 AM

The power of Omnipotence is enlisted in behalf of those who trust in God. {DA 352.2}

Revelation 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

O how little man can comprehend the perfection of God, His omnipresence united with His almighty power. {UL 340.3}

He is infinite and omnipresent. No words of ours can describe His greatness and majesty. {FLB 42.3}

Nothing can happen in any part of the universe without the knowledge of Him who is omnipresent. {3BC 1141.5}

To acknowledge that we cannot fully comprehend the great truths of the Bible is only to admit that the finite mind is inadequate to grasp the infinite; that man, with his limited, human knowledge, cannot understand the purposes of Omniscience. {SC 108.1}

Men in their blindness boast of wonderful progress and enlightenment; but to the eye of Omniscience are revealed the inward guilt and depravity. {6T 14.4}

Cain had gone so far in sin that he had lost a sense of the continual presence of God and of His greatness and omniscience. {PP 77.2}

The ever watchful eye of Omniscience is upon all our works, and although He can marshal the armies of heaven to do His will, He condescends to accept the services of frail, erring mortals (ST July 14, 1881). {3BC 1153.13}

With the eye of Omniscience He saw that the city of Jerusalem had decided her own destiny. {5BC 1098.6}

The Omniscient One is above discussion. {FLB 40.6}

God is omnipotent, omniscient, immutable. {HP 146.3}

Let no one venture to explain God. Human beings cannot explain themselves, and how, then, dare they venture to explain the Omniscient One? Satan stands ready to give such ones false conceptions of God. {MM 92.1}

Hundreds of years before certain nations came upon the stage of action, the Omniscient One looked down the ages and predicted the rise and fall of the universal kingdoms. {PK 501.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/02/03 06:58 AM

Apparently Sister White is not afraid to use the omni words when talking about our Almighty God and Father. I too am comfortable with believing God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. God can do anything He wants to - even force us to believe in Him - but He chooses to exercise His unlimited powers in a way that engenders trust and loyalty. But just because He chooses to use His powers discretely does not mean His powers are limited. I believe God's ability to predict Peter's denial was based on more than merely an educated guess - rather I believe it was based on His foreknowledge and omniscience.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/01/03 07:40 PM

Yes Mike there are many who are comfortable with using the words with omni, including myself. That is not the problem. The indiscriminate use of them is however a problem. That is purpose of my examples, to show that indiscriminate use of these thoughts is not the message in scripture. But if the thought is discriminative than it is not as omni as it could be thought.

Can God force us to believe? God can zap anything he wants into our brain; but such would never be us believing him. If a hypnotist can make one think and see things, certainly God can, but that is not what God calls believing him. Obviously, the meaning that God gives of the faith, trust and adoration from a freewill person is something where such cannot be done. Do you not not agree?

My point is Mike that we must keep in mind the reference definitions that God gives us and not to carry the 'omni' indiscriminately so that the definitions become entirely irrelevant.

Shalom

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/02/03 05:00 AM

However, believing God is able to predict the future choices of people and the tailored made consequences does not violate free will. Nor does it invalidate His divinty. On the contrary, it demonstrates His omnipotent and omniscient powers. Which is also the only way He can guarantee the universe that sin shall not arise a second time.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/02/03 05:07 AM

Mike you asked me why I was unwilling to agree with you on that type of a view of omniscience. I answered you in my post of July 01, 2003 07:14 AM.

What do you hear?

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/03/03 06:37 AM

I'm sorry I didn't respond more fully to your post. In theory I agree with the concept that anytime we explain God in abstract terms we do Him a disservice. Sometimes it's better to discuss things using definitions rather than assuming everyone understands our choice of words.

However, I do not believe that saying God is omniscient is abstract - truly, God is all knowing. Knowing the future choices of created beings is not abstract. The only way God can predict the future is if He knows our choices ahead of time. I do not believe it is an abuse of the word "omniscience" to say God knows our choices before we make them. Indeed, only God can know the future.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/03/03 02:12 PM

Mike, you seem to have a mental block. You do not seem be able to compute the information that I put forth, and you do not seem to be able to answer and deal with the content. Instead all we get is reiteration of an assertion without content.

In my post of July 01, 2003 07:14 AM. I have given very specific information that I would like your thoughts on.

I believe that you should be able to see that the only issues that are at stake are: God's foreknowledge that man at creation will (imperative) sin, and then since the fall, that of his foreknowledge of who will (imperative) be saved. I am not aware of any scripture teaching such, but I know of many scriptures that tell us the contrary.

I have given meaningful information what such knowledge entails. Please do not just give assertions. Please give at least equivalent content to what I have given.

Shalom

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/04/03 06:59 AM

John, sorry for the mental block. Thank you for keeping me on task. Did God know before hand that Adam would sin? Apparently, yes. The Bible teaches that Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. Rev 13:8. When the Father and Son met to discuss man's demise it wasn't to hammer out a plan, but rather to implement the existing plan. Note this quote from Sister White:

"Sorrow filled heaven as it was realized that man was lost and that the world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and that there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I then saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, "He is in close converse with His Father." The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe. He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that He had been pleading with His Father, and had obtained permission to give His own life as a ransom for the race, to bear their sins, and take the sentence of death upon Himself, thus opening a way whereby they might, through the merits of His blood, find pardon for past transgressions, and by obedience be brought back to the garden from which they were driven. Then they could again have access to the glorious, immortal fruit of the tree of life to which they had now forfeited all right. {EW 126.1}

"Then joy, inexpressible joy, filled heaven, and the heavenly choir sang a song of praise and adoration. They touched their harps and sang a note higher than they had done before, because of the great mercy and condescension of God in yielding up His dearly Beloved to die for a race of rebels. Then praise and adoration was poured forth for the self-denial and sacrifice of Jesus, in consenting to leave the bosom of His Father, and choosing a life of suffering and anguish, and an ignominious death, that He might give life to others. {EW 126.2}

"Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them. Angels were so interested for man's salvation that there could be found among them those who would yield their glory and give their life for perishing man. "But," said my accompanying angel, "that would avail nothing." The transgression was so great that an angel's life would not pay the debt. Nothing but the death and intercession of God's Son would pay the debt and save lost man from hopeless sorrow and misery. {EW 127.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/03/03 07:11 PM

Perhaps this quote is clearer:

"The Son of God, heaven's glorious Commander, was touched with pity for the fallen race. His heart was moved with infinite compassion as the woes of the lost world rose up before Him. But divine love had conceived a plan whereby man might be redeemed. The broken law of God demanded the life of the sinner. In all the universe there was but one who could, in behalf of man, satisfy its claims. Since the divine law is as sacred as God Himself, only one equal with God could make atonement for its transgression. None but Christ could redeem fallen man from the curse of the law and bring him again into harmony with Heaven. Christ would take upon Himself the guilt and shame of sin--sin so offensive to a holy God that it must separate the Father and His Son. Christ would reach to the depths of misery to rescue the ruined race. {PP 63.2}

"Before the Father He pleaded in the sinner's behalf, while the host of heaven awaited the result with an intensity of interest that words cannot express. Long continued was that mysterious communing--"the counsel of peace" (Zechariah 6:13) for the fallen sons of men. The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth; for Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8); yet it was a struggle, even with the King of the universe, to yield up His Son to die for the guilty race. But "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. Oh, the mystery of redemption! the love of God for a world that did not love Him! Who can know the depths of that love which "passeth knowledge"? Through endless ages immortal minds, seeking to comprehend the mystery of that incomprehensible love, will wonder and adore. {PP 63.3}

"God was to be manifest in Christ, "reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. Man had become so degraded by sin that it was impossible for him, in himself, to come into harmony with Him whose nature is purity and goodness. But Christ, after having redeemed man from the condemnation of the law, could impart divine power to unite with human effort. Thus by repentance toward God and faith in Christ the fallen children of Adam might once more become "sons of God." 1 John 3:2. {PP 64.1}

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/03/03 07:14 PM

"The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth; for Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8); yet it was a struggle, even with the King of the universe, to yield up His Son to die for the guilty race."

Does this quote teach that God foresaw the fall of Adam? Perhaps not. But why then did God device a plan whereby guilty man could be redeemed from the curse of the law?

"The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}

Did God foresee the fall of Adam?

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/04/03 05:02 AM

Mike,

You need to examine more closely those quotes you presented from the pen of Mrs. White. They are saying the opposite of what you quoted them for. She says that though there was a plan to salvage the beings of any planet which rebelled against God's ways, when the unthinkable actually occurred on this planet, it took some long, hard discussion to convince God to actually implement the plan.

Bob Lee

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/04/03 07:13 PM

Bob, please help me understand this quote - "From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency."

I quoted this passage to support the idea that God foresaw the fall of Adam. It also says that God foresaw the apostasy of Satan. The plan of redemption existed before sin and was implemented after much heart felt discussion when Adam fell. Jesus was slain for our sins before sin was committed by man. The point I'm trying to establish is that God foresaw sin. You seem to be saying that He couldn't know for sure it would happen, or whether it would happen with man or some other planet.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/05/03 02:52 PM

In many of His parables, Christ uses the expression, "the kingdom of heaven," to designate the work of divine grace upon the hearts of men. . . . The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race. It then existed in the purpose and by the promise of God; and through faith, men could become its subjects. God's Amazing Grace, p 23/2

Shalom

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/05/03 05:55 PM

John, according to these quotes (and the others I shared recently) did God foresee the fall of Satan and Adam?

"The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}

"The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. . . . Therefore redemption was not an afterthought . . . but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {AG 129.2}

"The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent. Redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam, but an eternal purpose, suffered to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world, but for the good of all the worlds that God had created. . . . {TMK 18.2}

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/06/03 12:27 AM

quote:
God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. DA 22.2

Foresaw = foreknew.

As far as I am concerned the above quote clearly tells me that God foresaw or foreknew that sin would happen before it happened, and unless somebody can show me clearly to the contrary, that settles it for me.

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/06/03 02:05 AM

It's interesting that we take a quotation that can mean several things and apply it to suit our pre-conceived ideas. In the above quotes, for instance, Daryl says, "Foresaw = foreknew." Yes, that's one possibility, but one can foresee a possibility without knowing for certain, for instance, that a burglar will raid a house on a certain date. We are told plainly in many ways that God foresaw and prepared for the possibility that sin would arise in this universe. "Foresaw" is the word Mrs. White used in the DA quote Mike used above. But in no way does that imply than God "foreknew" which beings would rebel against Him.

As for "From the beginning," which Mike quoted, from what beginning? Mike seems to assume that the phrase means "from the beginning of time." But it's just as reasonable to assume it means as soon as Satan apostatized, God knew it and when man fell, God knew that too. Nothing in the quote says or implies that God "knew" it before it happened except for our assumptions regarding "foreknowledge." Speaking of assumptions, I find it reasonable to assume that the part of that quote which says "God did not ordain that sin should exist" means just that. As John has been trying to point out, if at some time, God was all there was, then everything came from Him. If at that point He knew everything that would ever happen, then He must have built it into the universe and sin and it's consequences are all His fault. In that case, we (Satan, humans, and everybody else) are just playing out a script and the whole thing is pointless. However, since throughout the Bible God asks us to choose, even pleads with to choose, it seems reasonable to assume that we actually can choose. It's not a script, or as has been suggested, it's not a re-run. It's a genuine choice.

As for the phrase "God knows the end from the beginning." it is also assumed (without basis) that God must know all the details in between. But what about the many times God changed His mind? Are we assuming that God knew He would change His mind when Nineveh repented, for instance? Or when Moses stood up to God when He declared He was going home (Exod 33)? God says He makes plans in real time. That would be impossible if He already knew everything that is going to happen. In those plans, He sets out what He is going to do. All the great prophecies portray what God is going to do or cause to happen. Those we can count on to be fulfilled. But many of the lesser prophecies (Jonah's, for instance) are conditional. There is an implied "if" in them. Their fulfillment depends on our (human) action. God knows how He is going to end the travail of this world, but so far as I can determine, He has no way of knowing which of us will chose to join Him in His kingdom until we do the choosing.

Bob Lee

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/06/03 02:20 AM

Bob Lee, in my last posted I shared three quotes which plainly say that God knew Satan and Adam would fall. And that He possessed this knowledge from eternity past. True, sin was impossible before God began creating free moral agents. But to conclude that He created sin or sinners is dead wrong (not saying you are). But Sister White wrote that in spite of His foreknowledge of sin He decided to create free moral agents anyhow and made plans to deal with the sin problem.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/06/03 05:07 AM

Hi Mike, I thought you should like the EW quote I gave. You should not ignore it, since you seem to take her words so specifically. Daryl it takes more than that to understand where you are standing in reality.

quote:
God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. DA 22.2

God did not ordain that sin should exist; when a creator creates something, his knowledge of future actions of his creation is a direct result of what he has created, designed, ordained; or vice versa his thoughts and knowledge is what he is bringing into existence. Thus his thought and knowledge did not create a being that should sin.

but He foresaw its existence; according to what he purposed to create God knew of the possibility of sin and what that is all about. He knew exactly what powers he was endowing his creation with. He knew what he would require of them, and knew the possibility of sin. He knew what sin is and what it would do in and to his creation, therefore the existence of sin was foreseen (generally) but not foreknown (specifically). This means that it can be, and not that it must be. Foresight is different than foreknowledge..

and made provision to meet the terrible emergency.; provision is made for something 'in case of', something possible and never for something imperative. If it is imperative then it is planned for, which means it was designed, ordained so. An emergency is an unwanted, unforeknown situation; it is not something planned or known that it is going to happen. If it is known that it will happen then it cannot be an emergency. An emergency is something that can be known possible, a risk, but never certain. Much less that it should be planned to be certain.

Further simple point is this that if you can know who will sin then you also know who will be saved. If you can know the one you can know the other. But in reality it is nonsense for then there is no such thing as sin or salvation. We have already established that God does not know who will be saved according to scripture re 'book of life'. If it cannot be told who will be saved, then it also cannot be told who will be lost. Yet it is known who 'categorically'.

Shalom

[ July 06, 2003, 05:47 AM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/07/03 06:58 AM

John and Bob Lee, you two both are adding to Sister White's statements the word "possibility" whereas she does not use this word in the context of God foreseeing the existence of sin. In light of what she wrote I cannot conclude other than what I've been sharing - God knows who is going to be saved and lost, and that He has known this from eternity past. Contrary to what others might say God's foreknowledge does not rob of us our freedom to choose.

Posted By: Boblee

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/09/03 06:15 AM

Mike,

I notice that Jonah did not use the word "possible" or "conditional" either when he preached God's message that: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be destroyed" (Jonah 3:6). But the city wasn't destroyed in forty days. Jonah even got mad when God didn't fulfill His "promise" and God had to perform several miracles in an attempt to placate Jonah. So why are you so adamant that Mrs. White's statements were unconditional rather than being possibilities God foresaw and made provisions for just like she said? You're welcome to twist her words any way you want; however, in comparing them to the many scriptural texts which say God does change His mind, does make plans, does forget, does answer prayer and react to human needs, and does call us to choose (all of which are impossible if God is just a pre-programmed computer as your model suggests), I find that God seems to have a different set of characteristics than what you seem to find.

Bob Lee

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/26/03 04:58 PM

quote:
God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. DA 22.2

Mike you run training in mountain climbing. So in your work

There is absolutely no wresting of the word here, is there? The word 'possibility' does not add to or remove from the meaning of the statement. But if you think it does then are you not taking the statement wrong?

Shalom

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/26/03 05:42 PM

John, on page 6 July 5, 11:55am I posted several quotes which clearly teach that God knew Adam and Eve would sin, and that way before their sin He formulated a plan to deal with it. Jesus was slain for our sin from the foundation of the earth. The quotes I shared cannot be construed to mean that God had no idea whether or not man would sin or that He had Jesus slain just in case they do sin. The wording is too plain to misunderstand - at least for me. I have read these statements to a dozen different people and in each case they concluded obviously she meant to say God knew man would sin and gave Jesus to die for our sin.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/27/03 12:21 AM

Mike you said,

quote:

In any case, the final determination cannot be made before the person dies or is translated alive, otherwise - what if they backslide and refuse to repent? Does God have to unseal their destiny?

Not sinning is not unique to the sealed saints. The power of God is available now to not sin. In the case of the sealed saints (the living) God is able to say they will not sin again because He can look into the future. God can do that now before we are sealed, but for reasons that make sense to Him He does not reveal it until after they are sealed. But there is no difference before and after being sealed so far as how we resist temptation and cease from sin. The power and dynamics are the same.

Sorry Mike, these are just some of the senseless predicaments you get into.

Perhaps if you would let those reasons that make sense to him make sense to you then you would not make such statements about his foreknowledge.

You said: "the final determination cannot be made before the person dies or is translated alive", but you also say: "God is able to say they will not sin again because He can look into the future". The two cannot coexist.

On top of that there is no change that transpires, because you say: "But there is no difference before and after being sealed so far as how we resist temptation and cease from sin. The power and dynamics are the same". Since no factors of the equation change, your above two statements are senseless.

I am not addressing here the truth or validity of your statements in relation to salvation or sin. I am only addressing them in relation to your concept of foreknowledge.

Shalom

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 07/27/03 08:07 AM

Alas! My words failed to convey the truth. In closing, may I refer you to the words of Sister White:

"The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}

"The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. . . . Therefore redemption was not an afterthought . . . but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {AG 129.2}

"The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent. Redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam, but an eternal purpose, suffered to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world, but for the good of all the worlds that God had created. . . . {TMK 18.2}

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 09/12/03 02:36 PM

Mike, since you believe that God has such foreknowledge, so that he knows from the beginning who (personally and not qualitatively) will be saved and who lost, try and give this some thought.

For this purpose we will take the supposition that God knows that Mike Lowe will be, unsaved, lost.

Please tell me in your view, what impact does that knowledge have on God and his dealings with you?
Do his actions and efforts have any relevance to that knowledge?
What impact does that knowledge on his part, have on you?

You earnestly and sincery want to be saved, and God looking down sees your desire, but his foreknowledge tells him you won't make it.

How does that play out?

Rom.9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Shalom

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 09/13/03 07:37 PM

John, thank you for reviving this thread. And I have missed you lately. Your sweet and thought provoking manner of sharing your insights are more than endearing. Welcome back, brother.

And I like your question. The way I see it, and what makes sense to me personally, is that knowing the future of my salvation is based on everything God did to save me. Knowing the negative outcome ahead of time is painful for our darling Saviour but it does not detour Him from doing His part to save me - even though He knows it will come to naught.

How many others will be saved or lost based on everything He does to save me? And what would become of things if He gave up trying to save me knowing that I will be lost in the end? Knowing the future does not change how God works in the present. Otherwise, things would not turn out the way God foresaw.

If God were given the opportunity to change the history of mankind I'm confident He wouldn't do anything different than He has or will according to His divine foreknowledge. Hind sight is 20/20, therefore God has been operating under the most favorable conditions possible. That is comforting to me as a wayfaring pilgrim trying to make his way back home. Knowing that God is doing the best He can is the fuel I need to press on.

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 09/14/03 01:15 AM

Did Jesus not foresee the betrayal by Judas, and didn't He still try and save Judas, just as He did with Peter after telling Peter that before the cock crew he would deny Him three times?

quote:

Matthew 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

This also is a text that specifically tells me of the much detailed foreknowledge of God.

Posted By: Steve Claborn

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 09/14/03 01:22 AM

Daryl wrote, "Did Jesus not foresee the betrayal by Judas, and didn't He still try and save Judas, just as He did with Peter after telling Peter that before the cock crew he would deny Him three times?"

So then Daryl would you say God's foreknowing does not affect our choice even as it does not affect His desire to save us?

Posted By: Daryl

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 09/14/03 01:39 AM

quote:

Posted by Steve:
So then Daryl would you say God's foreknowing does not affect our choice even as it does not affect His desire to save us?

Yes, as I believe that God doesn't tamper with our freedom of choice, or free will, however, with those choices comes consequences, blessings or curses.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 09/14/03 04:54 AM

Thanks Mike, Daryl, Steve

In your above expressions it has been proposed that God's foreknowledge has no effect/impact on either his actions or our choices.

The next question then to answer is whether God's foreknowledge has any basis on his actions or our choices? That is, is his foreknowledge based on his knowledge of himself and on his knowledge of us and the basis of our choices?

Shalom

P.S. Thanks for the welcome back Mike. I'll get back to some things you said but first this question.

[ September 14, 2003, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 09/15/03 11:42 PM

God's foreknowledge is based on what He did to influence us to accept Jesus as our personal Saviour. Everything He does to encourage us to embrace Jesus is what He did do.

Posted By: John Boskovic

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 09/20/03 04:16 AM

Since no one else added to your comments, it seems they agree with you Mike.

From what you said, I understand that God's foreknowledge has its basis on God's knowledge of himself and his actions.

Am I to understand, by the absence of your further comments, that God's foreknowledge has no basis on his knowledge of us and the basis of our choices? If so, does that mean that our choices and we have no impact on the outcome and therefore his foreknowledge does not need to include that in its view?

Shalom

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 09/22/03 10:30 PM

quote:

Am I to understand, by the absence of your further comments, that God's foreknowledge has no basis on his knowledge of us and the basis of our choices? If so, does that mean that our choices and we have no impact on the outcome and therefore his foreknowledge does not need to include that in its view?

I don’t know how that could be. It would be a very dangerous gamble to try and influence choices by man (to choose Jesus) and not know what the outcome of that action would be.

For example;

“"Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever; wisdom and power are his. 21 He changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning.” Daniel 2

Clearly God is trying to influence the outcome or direction of mankind. However, to do that without have a knowledge of the outcome would be dangerous at best.

Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: Does God Foresee or Foreknow What Will Happen Before It Happens, Such As Sin? - 09/23/03 03:58 AM

John, what I wrote about God's foreknowledge of His own involvement is also true of mankind. Anything and everything that has happened, is happening or will happen God has known about for eternity. Knowing the end from the beginning does not destroy freedom of choice.

Judas fulfilled prophecy. Peter denied the Lord three times. Cyrus allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem. Jonah told the Ninevites they would be destroyed in 40 days. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Grecia and Rome followed each other in succession. And so on. But not once did God violate the freedom to choose.