What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians?
Posted By: Daryl
What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/12/04 12:04 AM
Cedric asked in another forum within MSDAOL, "What are the fundamentals of following Christ on which we must agree in order to call ourselves "Christians"?
As a result of that question, I have created a new topic to focus on answering that question here.
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/12/04 12:55 AM
The Faith I Live By---- Conversion And The New Life-----PG- 130
The question you need to put to yourselves is, "Am I a Christian?" To be a Christian is to be far more than many understand. It means more than simply having your name upon the church records. It means to be joined to Christ. It means to have simple faith, unwavering reliance upon God. It means to have childlike confidence in your heavenly Father through the name and merit of His dear Son. Do you love to keep the commandments of God, because the commandments
of God are God's precepts, the transcript of His character, and can no more be altered than can the character of God? Do you respect and love the law of Jehovah?"
In Heavenly Places--- True to Our Name----PG- 57
We bear the name of Christian. Let us be true to this name. To be a Christian means to be Christlike. It means to follow Christ in self-denial, bearing aloft His banner of love, honoring Him by unselfish words and deeds. In the life of the true Christian there is nothing of self--self is dead. There was no selfishness in the life that Christ lived while on this earth. Bearing our nature, He lived a life wholly devoted to the good of others. . . . In word and deed Christ's followers are to be pure and true. In this world--a world of iniquity and corruption--Christians are to reveal the attributes of Christ. All they do and say is to be free from selfishness...."
Posted By: Avalee
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/12/04 03:09 AM
Amen Charlene.
To me to be a Christian means to be Christ like in everything I do, say, and feel, etc. To follow Jesus is all that He requires of me. A Christian will be happy to keep and follow ALL His commands.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/12/04 05:18 PM
To enlarge a little on the intent of the question, I want to know what teachings, doctrines, dogma, beliefs, etc., are those on which we all must agree, ie. subscribe to or adhere to, to be called "Christian".
One for example, is found in I John 5:5 "Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God." So we must believe that the historical man "Jesus" was in fact, in some way, the Son of God, and Divine. (There are other texts to support this, but that is not the purpose of this post.)
We cannot simply offer opinion for a definition of Christianity, since by this process anyone who wants to claim Christianity may set up their own criteria and claim the name.
If we all believe in a Power outside of and above ourselves to which we must adhere, what does this power define as "Christianity"
Therefore, having said that, and without going into the reasons thereof, I personally subscribe to Scripture as that Authority and prefer to see responses supported by such.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/13/04 06:15 AM
We must
believe. quote:
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
I think I have presented enough references to show from the Bible that belief is on of the true and required fundamentals in order to be called a Christian, however, it is important on not just on whom we believe but also on how we believe as the following verse confirms:
quote:
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
I think I said enough in this post. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
======
Formatting corrections only. - Daryl
[ September 14, 2004, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/13/04 01:24 AM
We can say "I believe " until the cows come home but until we know what it means "to believe" we have nothing but cheap Grace. Now we need to know how is this belief manifested and what does it mean "to believe.
Cedric: To post quotes from the SOP is not voicing an opinion. It is the word of God through the Last Day Prophet, Ellen White. Her words are truth.
Faith and Works---- Obedience and Sanctification ----PG- 89
" From the pulpits of today the words are uttered: "Believe, only believe. Have faith in Christ; you have nothing to do with the old law, only trust in Christ." How different is this from
the words of the apostle who declares that faith without works is dead. He says, "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves" (James 1:22). We must have
that faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Many seek to substitute a superficial faith for uprightness of life and think through this to obtain salvation."
Lots of religions believe that if they "believe", they can keep on sinning and still be saved.....that is why we need to show how belief is manifested.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/13/04 02:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Charlene Van Hook:
Cedric: To post quotes from the SOP is not voicing an opinion. It is the word of God through the Last Day Prophet, Ellen White. Her words are truth
Smooth down the hackles, Charlene, my response was intended for those who posted opinions, which, if you will read, was actually Avalee (PBUH).
As for the SOP, what it is and what its uses are is a topic for another thread, not this one. If you open that can of worms, (or if that can is already open somewhere) invite me over for a chat.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/13/04 02:43 AM
That being said, I completely agree that we must believe. The question actually is what must we believe. If someone goes to church on Saturday and another goes to church on Sunday, is this critical to salvation? If one believes the dead sleep and another believes they go to heaven, is this critical to salvation?
Posted By: Heading Home
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/13/04 04:01 AM
It is critical to salvation if....
If the Truth of the Sabbath has been brought to their mind and they denied it and died in that state.
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
The Bible has given us not 9 commandments, but ten. If we know the Truth and do not keep it, then how can we expect God to take us to heaven when we don't even love Him enough to follow His will for us. The truth of the matter is that we would not even be happy there if we are not willing to follow Him here. For there we will not sin. Is not keeping the 7th day sabbath a sin? The Bible says that sin is the transgretion of the law. So yes, it would be a sin if we know that Truth of the Sabbath. And that makes it a Salvation issue.
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
With this said, there will however be many people that lived their life close to God that knew not the Sabbath truth, being deceived by their leaders. But their "relationship" with God was good and God will indeed save them. There will be many we are told, that will have their first Sabbath on the way to heaven. So we know from that, that there good solid Christians who have never seens the SAbbath truth but they will be saved.
However, "James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin".
The difference is if we know better.
I saw that God's people were coming into the unity of the faith, and those that believe that the seventh day is the Sabbath, are united in their views and understanding of the Bible truths in all important points and that they believe and speak the same things. But those who oppose the seventh day Sabbath are cut up and divided; there are hardly two agreed. One comes forward in opposition to the Sabbath commandment and declares it to be thus and so, and at the conclusion calls it settled. Then a second comes up and tears the first down, and declares it to be some other way. But they will not have it, any of them, that the seventh day is the Sabbath. They do not agree among themselves, but are blind and dishonest and are standing out against the Sabbath commandment. {6MR 169.1}
The mystery of iniquity, which had already begun to work in Paul's day, will continue its work until it be taken out of the way at our Lord's second coming. The climax of the working of iniquity will soon be reached. When the land which the Lord provided as an asylum for his people, that they might worship him according to the dictates of their own consciences, the land over which for long years the shield of Omnipotence has been spread, the land which God has favored by making it the depository of the pure religion of Christ,--when that land shall, through its legislators, abjure the principles of Protestantism, and give countenance to Romish apostasy in tampering with God's law,--it is then that the final work of the man of sin will be revealed. Protestants will throw their whole influence and strength on the side of the Papacy; by a national act enforcing the false Sabbath, they will give life and vigor to the corrupt faith of Rome, reviving her tyranny and oppression of conscience. Then it will be time for God to work in mighty power for the vindication of his truth. {ST, June 12, 1893 par. 12}
The Sabbath is a test of the last days. Will we stand? If we know the truth and do not follow it......will it be a Salvation issue then?
![[Heart]](graemlins/heart.gif)
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/13/04 06:30 AM
Heading Home
There are those who understand the argument in favor of 7th day observance but are honestly not convinced. They firmly, and in good faith, accept Sunday as their day of worship.
(PLEASE, let's not make this into a debate on Saturday vs. Sunday. That is not the intent of the question.)
The point is, some intelligent, honest people, sincerely seeking to do God's will, hold ideas counter to SDA theology. Are these people "Christians". This is the original question. On what fundamentals must we agree?
If we (individually, you and I) want people to grant us the position that we are intelligent, sincere, and honestly seeking to follow God's will, we must grant this same assumption to others who also claim to be "Christian". To say they are "not sincere" or "misguided" is, first of all, not to understand either them or their position, and second, is theologically dishonest, as it makes any and every position subject to our own personal system.
Posted By: Ikan
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/13/04 02:33 PM
Pretty fanciful to come to the largest Sabbath-keeping forum on the planet expecting folks not to talk about the vitalness of the Sabbath, it's relationship to salvation and the Son of God.
Perhaps fussy unitarian/islamic debate would be less confrontational, principle-wise, on some murky, intellectual christo-philosphical roundtable.
Be glad to line you up with a whole mess of them, Cedric.
Here, we're not ashamed to say what we are and what we hold as God's Truth.
Posted By: Avalee
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/14/04 06:44 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Heading Home:
It is critical to salvation if....
If the Truth of the Sabbath has been brought to their mind and they denied it and died in that state.
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
The Bible has given us not 9 commandments, but ten. If we know the Truth and do not keep it, then how can we expect God to take us to heaven when we don't even love Him enough to follow His will for us. The truth of the matter is that we would not even be happy there if we are not willing to follow Him here. For there we will not sin. Is not keeping the 7th day sabbath a sin? The Bible says that sin is the transgretion of the law. So yes, it would be a sin if we know that Truth of the Sabbath. And that makes it a Salvation issue.
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
With this said, there will however be many people that lived their life close to God that knew not the Sabbath truth, being deceived by their leaders. But their "relationship" with God was good and God will indeed save them. There will be many we are told, that will have their first Sabbath on the way to heaven. So we know from that, that there good solid Christians who have never seens the SAbbath truth but they will be saved.
However, "James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin".
The difference is if we know better.
I saw that God's people were coming into the unity of the faith, and those that believe that the seventh day is the Sabbath, are united in their views and understanding of the Bible truths in all important points and that they believe and speak the same things. But those who oppose the seventh day Sabbath are cut up and divided; there are hardly two agreed. One comes forward in opposition to the Sabbath commandment and declares it to be thus and so, and at the conclusion calls it settled. Then a second comes up and tears the first down, and declares it to be some other way. But they will not have it, any of them, that the seventh day is the Sabbath. They do not agree among themselves, but are blind and dishonest and are standing out against the Sabbath commandment. {6MR 169.1}
The mystery of iniquity, which had already begun to work in Paul's day, will continue its work until it be taken out of the way at our Lord's second coming. The climax of the working of iniquity will soon be reached. When the land which the Lord provided as an asylum for his people, that they might worship him according to the dictates of their own consciences, the land over which for long years the shield of Omnipotence has been spread, the land which God has favored by making it the depository of the pure religion of Christ,--when that land shall, through its legislators, abjure the principles of Protestantism, and give countenance to Romish apostasy in tampering with God's law,--it is then that the final work of the man of sin will be revealed. Protestants will throw their whole influence and strength on the side of the Papacy; by a national act enforcing the false Sabbath, they will give life and vigor to the corrupt faith of Rome, reviving her tyranny and oppression of conscience. Then it will be time for God to work in mighty power for the vindication of his truth. {ST, June 12, 1893 par. 12}
The Sabbath is a test of the last days. Will we stand? If we know the truth and do not follow it......will it be a Salvation issue then?
Amen Marie for posting this, thank you.
Yes Cedric this is me again agreeing with what was written above. Just my opionion as you like to say LOL. I am very busy and when I agree with what was written I just write Amen..kinda like being in church and ageeing with the pastor. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
I had about a minute with that post that you mentioned and I wrote yes MY opinion and dito here. 
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/14/04 01:26 AM
![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif)
Ikan, once again you miss the point.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/14/04 01:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Heading Home
[QUOTE]James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin".
The difference is if we know better.
I completely agree with this statement. However, my point about those who hold differing views was not answered. Some sincere Christians worship on Saturday, and some sincere Christians worship on Sunday. Both sincerely and honestly hold their view. (Again, it may be anything; Satureday/Sunday is just an example.) Both desire to follow God's will.
As has been so readily pointed out (check the Muslim Beliefs thread) those who do not believe in Jesus as the Christ cannot honestly call themselves "Christians". On this we must all agree. I would also say that one must also believe there is a God to be "Christian". I would also include the rite of baptism and the taking of communion.
What other points must be included in the fundamentals of "Christianity"?
P.S. Now, Avalee, it was your opinion, wasn't it? After all, you did say "to me..." which implies opinion.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/14/04 01:49 AM
Just a little hair-splitting on James 4:17. It actually reads "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin".
It does not say "...him that knoweth what to believe, and believeth it not"
So we see that James is talking about what we do, not what we believe. Whether we are Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, or whatever, that rule still applies. If we do not do the good we know to do, it is a sin.
If one group says "Keep the Law" (The Jerusalem Christians) and another says "Dispense with the Law (Pauline Christians) both are still Christians.
Posted By: Heading Home
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/14/04 05:00 AM
My question then is this. Do we believe one thing and do the other? I would take it that a true Christian would be "doing" what they believe.
Yes indeed, it is talking about what we do, and hopefully then, what they believe. I made the statement that if we know to do one thing and do it not, we sin. But if we follow God in all we know and have a good relationship with Him through prayer, yet know not the truth of the Sabbath that they will be saved.
![[Pray or Praying or Prayer]](graemlins/pray.gif)
Can you see that keeping the Sabbath is a Salvation issue just like any other of the commandments are? We are told if we brake one commandment we brake them all. Keeping the Commands of God IS NOT mulitipe choice.
James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
P.S. Matter a fact, that don't even say commandment, but rather "yet affend in one "point". That seems to make it even a stronger statement.
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/14/04 05:25 AM
Bible Echo and Signs of the Times--- 04-16-94
The Law of God Perpetual
"The words of Christ are both explicit and comprehensive. "Whosoever"-- minister or laymen, wise or ignorant--"shall break one of these least
commandments"--wilfully or presumptuously, as did Adam and Eve--is included in the condemnation. Breaking one of the commandments makes man a commandment-breaker. "Whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in
one point, he is guilty of all." No excuse can avail for him who strictly obeys nine of the precepts of God's law, but ventures to break one because it is for his profit or convenience to do so. God demands implicit obedience to all His requirements."
Testimonies for the Church Volume Three---PG- 248
"Christ's life is the pattern for us all. His example of self-denial, self-sacrifice, and disinterested benevolence is for us to follow. His entire life is an infinite demonstration of His great love and condescension to save sinful man. "Love one another, as I have loved you," says Christ. How will our life of self-denial, sacrifice, and benevolence bear comparison with
the life of Christ? "Ye are," says Christ, addressing His disciples, "the light of the world." "Ye are the salt of the earth."
If this is our privilege and also our duty, and we are bodies of darkness and of unbelief, what a fearful responsibility we assume! We may be channels of light or of darkness. If we
have neglected to improve the light that God had given us, and have failed to advance in knowledge and true holiness as the light has directed the way, we are guilty and in darkness
according to the light and truth we have neglected to improve.
In these days of iniquity and peril the characters and works of professed Christians will not generally bear the test nor endure
the exposure when examined by the light that now shines upon them. There is no concord between Christ and Belial; there is no communion between light and darkness. How, then, can the spirit of Christ and the spirit of the world be in harmony?
The Lord our God is a jealous God. He requires the sincere affection and unreserved confidence of those who profess to love Him. Says the psalmist: "If I regard iniquity in my heart,
the Lord will not hear me."
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/14/04 05:41 AM
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald----DT- 04-25-93
"It is plainly stated in the Scriptures that if the whole congregation sin through ignorance, the priests shall make an atonement for the sins when they are made apparent, and the sin of ignorance shall be forgiven. The work
of Jesus is to forgive the sins of the past, but if light comes from heaven to the church, and men refuse the light because its acceptance involves a cross, then they stand guilty before God; for they have made it manifest that they love the world more than they love Christ and the truth. Those who have an opportunity to hear the truth, and yet take no pains to hear or understand it, thinking that if they do not hear, they will not be accountable, will be
judged guilty before God the same as if they had heard and rejected. There will be no excuse for those who choose to go in error when they might
understand what is truth. In his sufferings and death Jesus has made atonement for all sins of ignorance, but there is no provision made for
wilful blindness. Those who have hid their eyes from the truth lest they should be convinced, must exercise repentance toward God for the
transgression of his law, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, that their sins of ignorance in the transgression of the Sabbath may be forgiven."
Last Day Events----- The Seal of God and the Mark of the Beast----PG- 218
"Those who have an opportunity to hear the truth and yet take no pains to hear or understand it, thinking that if they do not hear they will not be accountable, will be judged guilty before God the same as if they had heard
and rejected. There will be no excuse for those who choose to go in error when they might understand what is truth. In His sufferings and death Jesus has made atonement for all sins of ignorance, but there is no provision made for willful blindness."
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/14/04 06:23 AM
Yes, Charlene, you are right.
And yet...
We all agree that there will be those in heaven who "have never heard the name of Jesus" or keep Sunday rather than Saturday.
So what is the fundamental fact of salvation. Actually that question is off topic. The topic question is "What points must we believe in order to call ourselves Christians?" I've listed a few; can anyone add to the list?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/14/04 06:33 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Heading Home:
My question then is this. Do we believe one thing and do the other?
That, my dear, is the elemental enegma of humanity.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/14/04 06:38 AM
![[Embarrassed]](images/icons/blush.gif)
Please pardon the spelling. Not being a registered member I cannot go back and edit my posts.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/14/04 08:08 AM
quote:
"What points must we believe in order to call ourselves Christians?"
I believe it depends on which dispensation we're talking about. During the little time of trouble, just before probation closes, a Christian is someone who embraces the 3AMs (Rev 14:6-12).
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/14/04 05:31 PM
![[Caution]](graemlins/caution.gif)
Let us all be kind and loving to each other in this and every other topic of MSDAOL.
I had to do a lot of editing in another topic, but I do not want to find it necessary to also do the same thing in this topic.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/14/04 05:42 PM
Let us try and focus on one fundamentally necessary belief at a time in order to be called Christians.
It is apparent that we all agree that we need to
believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be called Christians.
quote:
Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
What does believe on the Lord Jesus Christ mean?
As I said in an earlier post, the devil and the other fallen angels (demons) also believe and tremble, and they certainly are not Christians, therefore, I am asking the above question to ensure we know what we mean when we believe in order to be called Christians.
Posted By: Heading Home
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/14/04 08:47 PM
It is my understanding that the devil and his angels believe because they were there, they know what is true. They don't follow it, "but they have the knowledge" that it is true. So they have to believe it.
But to believe "in" Christ is a whole different issue. They believe yes, but they do not believe "in" Christ. In other words, they know who He is and that what He says is true, but they do not believe "in" Christ for salvation or for anything.
When belief is mixed with faith the Christian does not need to have the knowledge satan has to believe. They know Christ is true because of the change He makes in their life. They also know He is True because of fulfilled Prophecy.
The true Christian will believe "in" Christ's saving power for him/her. And he will have the faith from prayer and study to place "all" on the aulter for Him.
True belief and faith will lead to a great love for Christ and a desire to follow him in all ways.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/14/04 11:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Let us try and focus on one fundamentally necessary belief at a time in order to be called Christians.
It is apparent that we all agree that we need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be called Christians.
quote:
Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
What does believe on the Lord Jesus Christ mean?
As I said in an earlier post, the devil and the other fallen angels (demons) also believe and tremble, and they certainly are not Christians, therefore, I am asking the above question to ensure we know what we mean when we believe in order to be called Christians.
There's a statement from the Spirit of Prophesy which I can't find but know well which says something like the following.
Believing in Jesus means more than many realize. We may say we believe in Jesus when we appreciate the cost of our salvation, when we realize it is our guilt that caused Christ's death, and when we have an intelligent understanding that by faith in Christ we can overcome sin.
These were the essential points, even though I can't remember the exact language. I like your question, so I'll answer it in another way on a different post.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/14/04 11:10 PM
Jesus said that whoever believed in Him would not perish but have everlasting life. You point out, from James, that "the devils believe, and tremble." It is clear that there is a difference in what the devils do and what believers in Christ do. What is that difference?
If we look at the preceeding verses to John 3:16 we see that Christ said that He would be lifted up, as the serpeant was lifted up in the wilderness, that whoever beleived in Him would not perish. He presented a parallel between the serpeant in the wilderness and Himself.
How were those who had been bitten in the wilderness saved? By looking and seeing something. How are we saved? By looking and seeing something. The belief that Christ refers to, the belief that saves, is a belief which involves looking to Jesus, crucified on the cross, and seeing something. Here's how EGW puts it:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 6)
I could write a lot more, but I'll restrain myself for now.
======
I removed the repetition of the quote of my previous post. - Daryl
[ September 14, 2004, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/24/04 05:06 AM
In my opinion, the key is "believing" not only that Jesus died FOR us but also that we die WITH Him.
If that truly happens, our old man of sin us buried with Christ and the new man arises with Christ.
The whole process we believe in includes something that has to do with US... He took upon Himself our nature and our sins... and we take His righteousness... but this also involves then our "self" dying with Him.
To me that is real genuine "believing". But thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.
1Jn:5:5: Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jn:5:1: Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God
To me the whole Romans Chapter 6 chapter is what happens when we really "believe" in Jesus
Romans Chapter 6
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him :
9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17: But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18: Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19: I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20: For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
---------This to me is what it means to accept Jesus as our "personal" Saviour. He became us so we could become Him, so to speak (not the right wording but you know what Im saying I hope) Otherwise we only believe "about" Jesus and not "in" Him.
"The devils believe" but do they confess this?
1Jn:4:3: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of
God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even
now already is it in the world.
2Jn:1:7: For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is
come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Rom:8:3-8:
3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
---
You see, Jesus took upon Himself our sinful nature, our flesh, and using no special powers, but rather by faith... overcame all sin and thus by doing that condemns sin in the flesh... meaning we have no excuse, and meaning He gives us power to do the same.
This is truly believing in Christ, and it has to do with Him becoming us and us becoming Him... (once again, poor language on my part, but you know what I mean).
..and the devils "believe" in the same way that false professors of faith believe... but the antichrist spirit wont admit or confess to this part about Jesus coming "in the flesh".
I hope I am right because it's what I believe about what it means to believe.
Claudia
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/25/04 03:22 AM
Then a proper kind of belief in/on Christ is one of the true fundamentals of following Christ in order to be called Christians. I think we have adequately established that fact.
What then is the next of the true fundamentals of following Christ in order to be called Christians?
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/25/04 11:14 AM
Also, Genuine "Believing" has to do with KNOWING the person we are believing in. How can we truly believe in something if we dont even know what that something really is? If we really do know Jesus we become one with Him and we are crucified with Him. We dont just believe He was crucified for us.
They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal. 5:24.
God's Amazing Grace, page 97
Chapter Title: Undivided Occupancy
We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. . . . The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness.
2Tm:1:12: For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
"This is life eternal," Christ said, "that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent."
1Jn:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Christ's Object Lessons 312,313
"When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness.
Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah.
It is not enough for us to believe that Jesus is not an impostor, and that the religion of the Bible is no cunningly devised fable. We may believe that the name of Jesus is the only name under heaven whereby man may be saved, and yet we may not through faith make Him our personal Saviour. It is not enough to believe the theory of truth. It is not enough to make a profession of faith in Christ and have our names registered on the church roll.
"He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us." "Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments." 1 John 3:24; 2:3. This is the genuine evidence of conversion. Whatever our profession, it amounts to nothing unless Christ is revealed in works of righteousness. "As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name." John 1:12. This power is not in the human agent. It is the power of God. When a soul receives Christ, he receives power to live the life of Christ."
To truly believe in Jesus we must KNOW AND RECEIVE Jesus. That's the difference between believing something ABOUT Jesus and actually beleiving IN Jesus.
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/25/04 11:22 AM
..forgot to say, this knowing God is the test of genuine "belief" in Christ.
Mt:7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you : depart from me, ye that work iniquity (sin).
Mt:13:41: The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity(sin).
You have to know who you claim to believe in, otherwise you werent really believeing in that person at all, you were believing in a false version of Christ.
you can read more about that inn the last chapter of Christ's Object Lessons about the Wise and Foolish Virgins. The wise knew Jesus, the Foolish did not.
Maatthew 25
10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11: Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/25/04 11:35 AM
Just one more thing, in the Bible when it speaking of someone "knowing" someone else, it means "having intimate relations with".
You have to become MARRIED to Christ and in order to do this you have to first die. Become crucified with Him. This is truly believing in Christ. "I know in whom I have believed" and "to know Him is life eternal"
Read this for more information:
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/romans_chapter7.htm
Posted By: Ted Phelps
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/26/04 04:19 AM
Claudia, with regard to "knowing" Christ implying a deeper, intimate relationship and certainly not anything superficial, I cherish Jesus' invitation found in Matthew 11:28-30:
quote:
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
The key phrase found in Jesus' invitation is learn of me. He invites us to:
- learn who He is
- learn how He thinks (the mind of Christ)
- learn how He cares
- learn His teachings
- learn of His daily surrender of self
- learn what gives Him joy...and sorrow
- learn of His mission
- learn how His life is an example for us
- learn of His priestly ministry for us even today
- learn that He is coming again very soon
We cannot just learn of the historical Jesus and make a claim to know Him. When we learn of Him through a daily digging into His word, and commune with Him throughout each day and night, then we can begin to understand what the Apostle John was telling us: quote:
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2:3-6.
Yes, to know Him is to love Him. I believe learning of Jesus will require an eternity of lessons at Jesus' feet...I can't wait!
Ted
Posted By: Heading Home
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 09/26/04 09:52 PM
Amen Ted! What beautiful thoughts. Can you imagine learning forever and being able to remember everything? How wonderful learning would become to everyone. The more we remember the more wonderful learning is. To remember it all is something that is beyond my imagination, and to learn at Jesus Feet will be the best of all experiences!!
![[Thank You]](graemlins/thanks.gif)
Posted By: Ted Phelps
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/10/04 04:40 AM
I recognize that this thread seems to be seeking kind of a "minimum daily requirement" for being called a "Christian". But my question is, are we seeking to be recognized as a Christian in mans' eyes or God's?
The "rich young ruler" met all the apparent requirements to be accepted (in man's eyes) as a "believer" or Christian. In fact, he was known by all around him as a devout believer. Yet, in God's sight he was severely lacking. Meeting a check list of requirements is not what Christianity is all about. The Pharisees were the best at keeping a list of requirements for being accepted as a faithful believer.
We know that it is not enough to believe, as the devils believe and tremble. When we believe in Jesus as Lord, we must be willing to "submit" or surrender all (especiall "self") to Him—daily.
"He who would build up a strong, symmetrical character, he who would be a well-balanced Christian, must give all and do all for Christ; for the Redeemer will not accept divided service. Daily he must learn the meaning of self-surrender. He must study the word of God, learning its meaning and obeying its precepts. Thus he may reach the standard of Christian excellence. Day by day God works with him, perfecting the character that is to stand in the time of final test. And day by day the believer is working out before men and angels a sublime experiment, showing what the gospel can do for fallen human beings." {AA 483.1}
In due time, when those of an honest heart hear the Gospel message of salvation by faith in the merits of Jesus, and they come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, confess their sin and utter unworthiness, and surrender their heart to Christ, that same Holy Spirit will lead them into all truth. They will study the Scriptures and compare "line upon line, precept upon precept", and like the Bereans, "will search the Scriptures daily, whether these things are so." Discovering God's Truth will be an all encompasing obsession, as I hope it is for all of us.
Ted
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/11/04 06:06 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
Then a proper kind of belief in/on Christ is one of the true fundamentals of following Christ in order to be called Christians. I think we have adequately established that fact.
What then is the next of the true fundamentals of following Christ in order to be called Christians?
Jesus said that whosoever believed in Him would not perish, but have everlasting life. Believing in Christ brings Christ into the heart by faith. (Eph. 3:17). In Christ we have everything we need.
There is no other fundamental needed to be called a Christian beyond having Christ.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/12/04 06:00 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ted Phelps:
I recognize that this thread seems to be seeking kind of a "minimum daily requirement" for being called a "Christian".
Ted
Sorry to mislead you, Ted, but the intent of the thread is not a "minimum daily requirement" but a seeking of the foundational elements of Christianity which bind ALL who go by the name of "Christian".
For example, if I eat meat, and you are a vegitarian, are we both Christians? If I drink coffee and you Postum, are we both Christians? If I worship on Sunday, and you on Saturday, if I have a little wine with my meal and you do not, if I enjoy my pipe occasionally but you abhor smoking, if I think the dead go to heaven and you believe they sleep, if you believe in the investigative judgement and I do not...You get the point.
We both believe: (I assume)
1. There is a God.
2. He created the world, including man.
3. Man sinned.
4. God provided salvation through Jesus Christ.
5. We can access this salvation through faith in the sacrifice of Christ.
6. We demonstrate our belief through participation in the rites of communion and baptism.
7. We also demonstrate our belief through love and service to humanity.
Anything else, (including exactly what we believe about the above), is peripheral.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/12/04 06:03 AM
By the way, Ted, I am not saying you believe the last statement, only the numbered ones.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/12/04 06:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
There is no other fundamental needed to be called a Christian beyond having Christ.
I can say that I agree completely with this statement (aside from the need to define "having Christ").
Does it follow, then, that you would agree with my post to Ted?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/12/04 07:20 AM
quote:
Jesus said that whosoever believed in Him would not perish, but have everlasting life. Believing in Christ brings Christ into the heart by faith. (Eph. 3:17). In Christ we have everything we need.
There is no other fundamental needed to be called a Christian beyond having Christ.
This is what I wrote, from which the "having Christ" statement came. But you're right that this begs more questions. For example, what does it mean to say that Christ dwells in the heart but faith? But that's a question for another thread.
Paul says if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. If we have accepted Christ as our personal Savior, then we have the gift of the Spirit, Who leads us into all truth.
What specific things we do are not what makes us Christians. It is faith in Christ that makes us Christians. The Spirit of Christ will enable followers of Christ to recognize one another.
Posted By: John H.
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/12/04 07:37 PM
quote:
What specific things we do are not what makes us Christians. It is faith in Christ that makes us Christians.
True enough.
But the resulting externals, the works, are an identifying feature for the Christian; as Jesus said,
"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Matthew 7:20
As somebody else said, "Talk is cheap!" Anyone can profess to be a Christian. What they *do* about that profession is the proof. Many who profess to be Christians will be cast into outer darkness when the Lord comes in glory; Matthew 7:21-23.
Posted By: John H.
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/12/04 08:05 PM
Cedric said,
quote:
Anything else, (including exactly what we believe about the above), is peripheral.
I have to disagree with that.
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:..."
2 Thessalonians 2:13.
There aren't two or three "truths." Or ten, or twenty. There is only one.
"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,..." Ephesians 4:4,5.
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
Galatians 1:8.
It does matter what we believe in particular, and how we act upon that. Even the devils believe the things many Christians believe, "and tremble." They just don't obey.
Adherence to doctrinal truths or disbelief in them, beyond the areas Cedric noted above, will result in salvation or damnation. For example:
"Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions."
{GC 588.1}
As Paul stated it:
"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thessalonians 2:11,12.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/13/04 01:48 AM
"Anyone can profess to be a Christian. What they *do* about that profession is the proof."
If we believe in Christ, then Christ dwells in our hearts by faith. This is the proof that we are Christians. Christ will certainly produce fruit; He always does.
It is true that anyone can profess to be a Christian, but it is neither a profession of Christianity nor good works that makes a person a Christian. It is Christ.
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/13/04 02:44 AM
I do not agree with the idea that good works do not make us a Christian. I dont know where the quotation is right now but in the Spirit of Prophecy where it talks about abiding in Christ, and in "The Vine" --we must first let go of the other things that are keeping us from doing that... our sins, our idols, etc. So you cannot abide in Christ, and thus cannot be saved unless you let go of sin. You cannot hold onto Christ with one hand and sin with the other. If you let go of sin and abide in Christ then you will bear fruit. If you dont bear fruit you are useless... no matter what you profess.
John the Baptist illustrated that when he said to the Pharisees that they needed to stop trying to be baptised while refusing to bear fruit:
Matthew 7:
15: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
This idea some put forth that we are "Pharisees" if we talk about the necessity of good works is actually exactly opposite of what the Bible teaches.. John the Baptist came looking for fruit. Jesus came looking for fruit on the tree and when He saw there was none He wilted that tree because it wasnt any good for anything. Jesus didnt come asking if they had faith, because if they did the way He knew it was by their fruit.
That I May Know Him, page 167, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: An Abiding Motive
"When judged according to their works, how many will learn, too late, that their religion was but a glittering cheat, unacknowledged by Jesus Christ."
Rv:20:12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
The problem is that so many do not realize the real purpose of being a Christian, the idea is to represent Christ to the world. Herein is My Father glorified," Christ says, "that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be My disciples." John 15:8.
"God desired to make of His people Israel a praise and a glory. Every spiritual advantage was given them. God withheld from them nothing favorable to the formation of character that would make them representatives of Himself.
Their obedience to the law of God would make them marvels of prosperity before the nations of the world. He who could give them wisdom and skill in all cunning work would continue to be their teacher, and would ennoble and elevate them through obedience to His laws. If obedient, they would be preserved from the diseases that afflicted other nations, and would be blessed with vigor of intellect. The glory of God, His majesty and power, were to be revealed in all their prosperity. They were to be a kingdom of priests and princes. God furnished them with every facility for becoming the greatest nation on the earth.
In the most definite manner Christ through Moses had set before them God's purpose, and had made plain the terms of their prosperity. "Thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God," He said; "the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. . . . Know therefore that the Lord thy God, He is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep His commandments to a thousand generations. . . . Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them. Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the Lord thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which He sware unto thy fathers; and He will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: He will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which He sware unto thy fathers to give thee. Thou shalt be blessed above all people. . . . And the Lord will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee." Deut. 7:6, 9, 11-15.
But Israel did not fulfill God's purpose. The Lord declared, "I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto Me?" Jer. 2:21. "Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself." Hosea 10:1. "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and My vineyard. What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it? Wherefore when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: and I will lay it waste; it shall not be pruned nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For . . . He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry." Isa. 5:3-7.
The warning was not heeded by the Jewish people. They forgot God, and lost sight of their high privilege as His representatives. The blessings they had received brought no blessing to the world. All their advantages were appropriated for their own glorification. They robbed God of the service He required of them, and they robbed their fellow men of religious guidance and a holy example. Like the inhabitants of the antediluvian world, they followed out every imagination of their evil hearts. Thus they made sacred things appear a farce, saying, "The temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, are these" (Jer. 7:4), while at the same time they were misrepresenting God's character, dishonoring His name, and polluting His sanctuary.
...The parable of the vineyard applies not alone to the Jewish nation. It has a lesson for us. The church in this generation has been endowed by God with great privileges and blessings, and He expects corresponding returns.
We have been redeemed by a costly ransom. Only by the greatness of this ransom can we conceive of its results. On this earth, the earth whose soil has been moistened by the tears and blood of the Son of God, are to be brought forth the precious fruits of Paradise. In the lives of God's people the truths of His word are to reveal their glory and excellence. Through His people Christ is to manifest His character and the principles of His kingdom.
...All who receive Christ as a personal Saviour are to demonstrate the truth of the gospel and its saving power upon the life. God makes no requirement without making provision for its fulfillment. Through the grace of Christ we may accomplish everything that God requires. All the riches of heaven are to be revealed through God's people.
"Herein is My Father glorified," Christ says, "that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be My disciples." John 15:8. " --Christ's Object Lessons, The Lord's Vineyard
--------
Once we center our minds around Christ instead of ourselves we will cease to worry about doing more than we "need to" to be saved. Because being saved will not be our top priority. Glorifying God will be... and we will start asking how much we can do instead how little we can do and still manage to be saved.
Mt:5:16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/13/04 02:54 AM
The Wedding Garment
Then just to add to that last message, there is also the story about the Wedding Garment. It made all the difference as to whether you were wearing it or not, and you can read all about the chapter in Christ's Object Lessons.
The sheep and the goats... we know that story too... and it wasnt about whether we claimed to believe in Christ.
Jn:5:29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Its going to be about what you do, not what you say or claim you believe. Yet if we are relying on what we do instead of on Christ's sacrifice, and/or if we do "right things" for selfish motives, we wont be saved either.
I just think the term "good works" has been demonized by so much of Christianity, it's sad. The whole thing ought to be about Jesus and doing right because we love Him and want to glorify Him.
The Pharisees did good works to gain merit, and that label is not a good thing to pin on Christians who try to point out the necessity of good works. In fact Jesus told the Pharisees that they needed to REALLY keep the Law and not just superficially. Thats when He said "You have heard thou shalt not kill, but I am telling you, dont even be angry (hate) your brother... You have heard do not commit adultery, but I am telling you dont even wish you could commit sin... and so on. They did good in a shallow way for all the wrong reasons. Its too bad so many point to that poor example as a reason to claim we dont have to do good works. (just in case anyone does say that)
Claudia
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/13/04 05:58 PM
Sin is rebellion, so of course it must be given up to receive Christ. If we are rebelling against Him, then we aren't responding to His grace. Good works are important, but how are they obtained?
"The conditions of eternal life, under grace, are just what they were in Eden--perfect righteousness, harmony with God, perfect conformity to the principles of His law. The standard of character presented in the Old Testament is the same that is presented in the New Testament. This standard is not one to which we cannot attain. In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace." (MB 76)
If we do not frustrate God's grace by interposing a perverse will, good works will be manifest in our lives. It is totally sufficient for anyone to have Christ in order to be a Christian.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/15/04 10:40 PM
I would like to introduce a thought for our consideration. The question - What must we do in order to be called Christians - depends on the dispensation. During the MOB crisis we must live in harmony with the 3AMs in ordered to be called a Christian in eyes of God (not in the eyes of the world).
Also, to believe in Jesus is to behave like Jesus. At least, that's what Jesus Himself said in so many words. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." John 14:12.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/15/04 10:57 PM
There is certainly present truth which varies according to different generations, but there has always only been one thing necessary to be a Christian, which is to believe the Gospel, or equivalently believe in Christ, just as Abraham did.
I would content that Abraham was a Christian in the sense that he was a follower of Christ, just as much as Paul or any other believer, even though of course the term "Christian" did not exist in his time. Jesus said Abraham saw Christ's day and rejoiced in it. I gave him as an example because the Scriptures are so clear that he was saved by believing the Gospel.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/16/04 01:05 AM
If we are living on borrowed time, just before the MOB crisis - then who is a Christian in the eyes of God? What criteria does God use nowadays?
Posted By: Charlene Van Hook
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/16/04 05:01 AM
This quote may shed some light on the subject also:
Steps to Christ--- The Test of Discipleship
-PG- 62
" The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized."
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/16/04 09:04 AM
This quote (see bottom of page 2, also quoted again below)) can only refer to moral perfection. It cannot include biblical truths and doctrines that are learned intellectually, through study and prayer, after we are born again.
In other words, certain Bible truths are not known naturally or instinctively like moral truths. Things like the Sabbath, diet, the state of the dead, the 2300 days, the 3AMs, etc. People can experience a moral conversion and be morally perfect, in every sense of the word. That is, they are living up to the moral truths human beings are born with naturally.
As such, born again believers, SDA and non-SDA, are saved on the same basis, which is, they are, by the grace of God, living in harmony with their conscience and convictions. Which also means they are not willfully disregarding the truth as it is in Jesus. They are perfectly obedient, perfectly righteous, according to the light God has revealed to them. They are morally sinless.
SC 62
The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/19/04 06:25 AM
quote:
If we are living on borrowed time, just before the MOB crisis - then who is a Christian in the eyes of God? What criteria does God use nowadays?
The same as always. Anyone who doesn't resist God's grace will be saved.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/18/04 09:57 PM
How does a person know whether or not he/she is resisting God's grace?
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/19/04 12:22 AM
I'm not sure what Mike is trying to say but... If you know about the Sabbath (and other doctrines) now and you disregard the Sabbath now, you are sinning and disobeying God's Law... If keeping the Sabbath is the law and breaking the law is sin then if we know about the Sabbath and we break it we are sinning, now and later. It isnt as if we are held to the same standard as other Christians who do not realize about the Sabbath. Its not as if disobedience of the Sabbath commandment doesnt mean we are sinning till a certain time in history. If we know about it and break it, we are sinning.
The Faith I Live By, page 115, 190, 331
Chapter Title: God's Remedy For Sin
While God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins, or neglecting known duties.
The helpless sinner must cling to Christ as his only hope. If he lets go his hold for a moment, he imperils his own soul and the souls of others. Only in the exercise of living faith are we safe. But the commission of any known sin, the neglect of known duties, at home or abroad, will destroy faith, and disconnect the soul from God.
Let none deceive themselves with the belief that God will pardon and bless them while they are trampling upon one of His requirements. The willful commission of a known sin silences the witnessing voice of the Spirit, and separates the soul from God.
Lift Him Up, page 144, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: Lift Him Up as the Divine Lawgiver
Sanctification is a daily work. Let none deceive themselves with the belief that God will pardon and bless them while they are trampling upon one of His requirements. The willful commission of a known sin silences the witnessing voice of the Spirit, and separates the soul from God. Whatever may be the ecstasies of religious feeling, Jesus cannot abide in the heart that disregards the divine law. God will honor those only who honor Him.
Maranatha, page 232, paragraph 4
Chapter Title: Counterfeit Sanctification
Let none deceive themselves with the belief that they can become holy while willfully violating one of God's requirements. The commission of a known sin silences the witnessing voice of the Spirit and separates the soul from God. . . . "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected" (1 John 2:4, 5).
Our High Calling, page 76, paragraph 5
Chapter Title: The Privilege of Assurance
Do not settle down in Satan's easy chair, and say that there is no use, you cannot cease to sin, that there is no power in you to overcome. There is no power in you apart from Christ, but it is your privilege to have Christ abiding in your heart by faith, and He can overcome sin in you, when you cooperate with His efforts. . . . You may be living epistles, known and read of all men. You are not to be a dead letter, but a living one, testifying to the world that Jesus is able to save.
The Great Controversy, page 577, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Liberty of Conscience Threatened
But notwithstanding all the efforts to establish Sunday sacredness, papists themselves publicly confessed the divine authority of the Sabbath and the human origin of the institution by which it had been supplanted. In the sixteenth century a papal council plainly declared: "Let all Christians remember that the seventh day was consecrated by God, and hath been received and observed, not only by the Jews, but by all others who pretend to worship God; though we Christians have changed their Sabbath into the Lord's Day."-- Ibid., pages 281, 282. Those who were tampering with the divine law were not ignorant of the character of their work. They were deliberately setting themselves above God.
Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, March 8, 1870, paragraph 14
Article Title: The Law of God
Many will not search the Scriptures for themselves. They remain in willing ignorance of the origin and perpetuity of the law of the ten commandments. They trust to the researches of others to settle this matter for them. Blind leaders say, "You need not keep the law of God, for it is not binding. It is a yoke of bondage." And the willingly ignorant are blind, led by the blind. Neither are guiltless. God has provided for them in his law a mirror, that they may see their true character. Does it improve their condition to break this faithful looking-glass, because it reveals to them their defects? The work they should engage in is to put away sin, and every impurity, and work righteousness. Their remaining in willing ignorance of the claims of the law of God will not shield them from the penalty to be inflicted in consequence of its violation.
---------
Resisting the Spirit of God:
The Desire of Ages, page 175, paragraph 5
Chapter Title: Nicodemus
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.
The Desire of Ages, page 322, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Who Are My Brethren?
It is not God that blinds the eyes of men or hardens their hearts. He sends them light to correct their errors, and to lead them in safe paths; it is by the rejection of this light that the eyes are blinded and the heart hardened. Often the process is gradual, and almost imperceptible. Light comes to the soul through God's word, through His servants, or by the direct agency of His Spirit; but when one ray of light is disregarded, there is a partial benumbing of the spiritual perceptions, and the second revealing of light is less clearly discerned. So the darkness increases, until it is night in the soul. Thus it had been with these Jewish leaders. They were convinced that a divine power attended Christ, but in order to resist the truth, they attributed the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan. In doing this they deliberately chose deception; they yielded themselves to Satan, and henceforth they were controlled by his power.
Evangelism, page 291, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Clinching the Interest
We must have more than an intellectual belief in the truth. Many of the Jews were convinced that Jesus was the Son of God, but they were too proud and ambitious to surrender. They decided to resist the truth, and they maintained their opposition. They did not receive into the heart the truth as it is in Jesus. When truth is held as truth only by the conscience, when the heart is not stimulated and made receptive, only the mind is affected. But when the truth is received as truth by the heart, it has passed through the conscience, and has captivated the soul with its pure principles. It is placed in the heart by the Holy Spirit, who reveals its beauty to the mind, that its transforming power may be seen in the character.-- Review and Herald, Feb. 14, 1899.
The Faith I Live By, page 137, paragraph 4
Chapter Title: Conversion And The New Life
The change of heart represented by the new birth can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. . . . Pride and self-love resist the Spirit of God; every natural inclination of the soul opposes the change from self-importance and pride to the meekness and lowliness of Christ. But if we would travel in the pathway to eternal life, we must not listen to the whispering of self. In humility and contrition we must beseech our heavenly Father, "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." Ps. 51:10. As we receive divine light, and cooperate with the heavenly intelligences, we are "born again," freed from the defilement of sin by the power of Christ.
Fundamentals of Christian Education, page 433, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: The True Higher Education
The Holy Spirit has been given to us as an aid in the study of the word. Jesus promises, "The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." Those who are under the training of the Holy Spirit will be able to teach the word intelligently. And when it is made the study book, with earnest supplication for the Spirit's guidance, and a full surrender of the heart to be sanctified through the truth, it will accomplish all that Christ has promised. The result of such Bible study will be well-balanced minds; for the physical, mental, and moral powers will be harmoniously developed. There will be no paralysis in spiritual knowledge. The understanding will be quickened; the sensibilities will be aroused; the conscience will become sensitive; the sympathies and sentiments will be purified; a better moral atmosphere will be created; and a new power to resist temptation will be imparted. And all, both teachers and students, will become active and earnest in the work of God.
Christs' Object Lessons, Hidden Treasure
" He who would seek successfully for the hidden treasure must rise to higher pursuits than the things of this world. His affections and all His capabilities must be consecrated to the search.
Disobedience has closed the door to a vast amount of knowledge that might have been gained from the Scriptures. Understanding means obedience to God's commandments. The Scriptures are not to be adapted to meet the prejudice and jealousy of men. They can be understood only by those who are humbly seeking for a knowledge of the truth that they may obey it.
Do you ask, What shall I do to be saved? You must lay your preconceived opinions, your hereditary and cultivated ideas, at the door of investigation. If you search the Scriptures to vindicate your own opinions, you will never reach the truth. Search in order to learn what the Lord says. If conviction comes as you search, if you see that your cherished opinions are not in harmony with the truth, do not misinterpret the truth in order to suit your own belief, but accept the light given. Open mind and heart that you may behold wondrous things out of God's word.
Faith in Christ as the world's Redeemer calls for an acknowledgment of the enlightened intellect controlled by a heart that can discern and appreciate the heavenly treasure. This faith is inseparable from repentance and transformation of character. To have faith means to find and accept the gospel treasure, with all the obligations which it imposes.
'Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.' John 3:3. He may conjecture and imagine, but without the eye of faith he cannot see the treasure. Christ gave His life to secure for us this inestimable treasure; but without regeneration through faith in His blood, there is no remission of sins, no treasure for any perishing soul.
We need the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit in order to discern the truths in God's word. The lovely things of the natural world are not seen until the sun, dispelling the darkness, floods them with its light. So the treasures in the word of God are not appreciated until they are revealed by the bright beams of the Sun of Righteousness.
The Holy Spirit, sent from heaven by the benevolence of infinite love, takes the things of God and reveals them to every soul that has an implicit faith in Christ. By His power the vital truths upon which the salvation of the soul depends are impressed upon the mind, and the way of life is made so plain that none need err therein. As we study the Scriptures, we should pray for the light of God's Holy Spirit to shine upon the word, that we may see and appreciate its treasures."
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/19/04 03:12 AM
Claudia, I agree with you.
Daryl, the Holy Spirit convicts us whether or not we are resisting the grace of God.
John
14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Romans
8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Isaish
8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
2 Timothy
2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Ephesians
5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Posted By: Claudia Thompson
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/19/04 02:14 PM
Sons of God who are led by the Spirit
This is the best quotation I could find on both becoming a real follower of Jesus and on being led by the Spirit instead of resisting the Spirit:
"Religion consists in doing the words of Christ; not doing to earn God's favor, but because, all undeserving, we have received the gift of His love. Christ places the salvation of man, not upon profession merely, but upon faith that is made manifest in works of righteousness. Doing, not saying merely, is expected of the followers of Christ. It is through action that character is built. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Romans 8:14. Not those whose hearts are touched by the Spirit, not those who now and then yield to its power, but they that are led by the Spirit, are the sons of God.
Do you desire to become a follower of Christ, yet know not how to begin? Are you in darkness and know not how to find the light? Follow the light you have. Set your heart to obey what you do know of the word of God. His power, His very life, dwells in His word. As you receive the word in faith, it will give you power to obey. As you give heed to the light you have, greater light will come. You are building on God's word, and your character will be builded after the similitude of the character of Christ." -Mount of Blessing, 149,150
1. Religion consists in doing the words of Christ; not doing to earn God's favor, but because, all undeserving, we have received the gift of His love.
2. Christ places the salvation of man, not upon profession merely, but upon faith that is made manifest in works of righteousness. Doing, not saying merely, is expected of the followers of Christ.
3. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Romans 8:14. Not those whose hearts are touched by the Spirit, not those who now and then yield to its power, but they that are led by the Spirit, are the sons of God.
4. Follow the light you have. Set your heart to obey what you do know of the word of God. His power, His very life, dwells in His word. As you receive the word in faith, it will give you power to obey. As you give heed to the light you have, greater light will come.
That is how we can do what the Spirit tells us and be led by the Spirit instead of resisting the Spirit. And that is how to become "the sons of God".
And Christ "places the salvation of man" upon those who do this, not upon those who now and then yeild to its power.
...and that goes back to this:
"You need not be worried. You need not be thinking that there is a special time coming when you are to be crucified. The time to be crucified is just now. Every day, every hour, self is to die; self is to be crucified." Upward Look 283
I really believe that sinful human nature would like nothing more than to hold onto sin, justifying it in any way the sounds possibly feasible. And so, Christians will come up with all sorts of things to hold onto their sins...even fooling themselves into thinking they are still Christians. And they will make being a real Christian into some kind of a complicated matter, when in reality, we just need to decide every moment we'd rather have Jesus than the sin. Crucifying self every moment is the hardest thing in the world to do because self wants to live. And it's really stupid too because if we'd just let go, we would find that Jesus is so much better. Satan tells us all sorts of things to make us really believe the sin would be better. It's really all about being honest with ourselves and with God, every moment...
"When sin is pointed out to you, say, ‘I would rather have Christ than that.’ And let it go. (Congregation: ‘Amen’) . . . Then where in the world is the opportunity for any of us to get discouraged over our sins? [from wanting to hold on to them] Now some of the brethren have done that very thing. They came here free; but the Spirit of God brought up something they never saw before. The Spirit of God went deeper than it ever went before, and revealed things they never saw before: and then, instead of thanking the Lord that that was so, and letting the whole wicked business go, and thanking the Lord that they had ever so much more of Him than they ever had before, they began to get discouraged . . . and they got no good out of the meetings day after day.
"If the Lord has brought up sins to us that we never thought of before, that only shows that He is going down to the depths, and He will reach the bottom at last; and when He finds the last thing that is unclean or impure, that is out of harmony with His will, and brings that up, and shows that to us, and we say, ‘I would rather have the Lord than that’ — then the work is complete, and the seal of the living God can be fixed upon that character .
"Which would you rather have, the completeness, the perfect fullness of Jesus Christ. or have less than that, with some of your sins covered up that you never knew of? . . So He has got to dig down to the deep places we never dreamed of, because we cannot understand our hearts . . . Let Him go on, brethren; let Him keep on His searching work . . . Brethren, let us be honest with the Lord, and treat Him as He wants us to." — A.T. Jones, General Conference Daily Bulletin, 1893, page 404.
That is my opinion. The whole question of this topic is "What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? " ...and I think from the start all the way to the end, this has to be our attitude, and if we have it, we will be just fine. And we may have many faults still left to remove all along the way, but we need to have this attitude from start to finish.
Faith and Works, page 50,
"When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion."
..and its not like you start by relying on Jesus' merits and do the rest yourself, you have to rely on His merits from start to finish and have an attitude of surrender from start to finish. Its not either/or EVER. Thats where people get mixed up.
[ October 19, 2004, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: Claudia Thompson ]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/19/04 05:51 PM
Claudia wrote:
quote:
And we may have many faults still left to remove all along the way . . .
Paul wrote: quote:
Romans
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
In light of what Paul wrote about walking in the Spirit - What is an example of an unknown fault or imperfection a born again believer, who is being led of the Spirit, can possess without realizing it?
So far, no one has been willing or able to address this question. Usually someone brings up the Sabbath or diet reform or some other intellectually learned doctrine as an example of an unknown defective trait character. But sins of ignorance do not constitute unknown moral imperfections. To be morally guilty a person must willfully disobey God. However, there is no such thing as an unknown moral imperfection, therefore, what Paul wrote in Galatians is true.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/20/04 06:44 AM
quote:
In light of what Paul wrote about walking in the Spirit - What is an example of an unknown fault or imperfection a born again believer, who is being led of the Spirit, can possess without realizing it?
Constantly harping about sin.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/20/04 08:48 AM
Tom wrote:
quote:
Anyone who doesn't resist God's grace will be saved.
Tom, resisting the grace of God is a sin, it is the unpardonable sin.
It is interesting to note that the KJV Bible uses the word sin (and its variations) 759 times, whereas the word love (and its variations) occurs only 471 times. Apparently sin is an important topic. Sin is the source of all human unrest and misery, and Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death to empower us to live without sinning. The importance of overcoming sin cannot be over stressed.
The idea that born again believers, who are abiding in Jesus, gradually outgrow their known and so-called unknown defective traits of character, by becoming less and less sinful, by sinning less and less often, is untrue and unbiblical. And yet this is precisely what has been advocated on this, and other, threads.
Overcoming sin is the most important thing we can do personally. Sin is the reason why Jesus died on the Cross. Every sin we commit we crucify Christ afresh. "There are many ways in which human beings can crucify the Son of God afresh, and put Him to open shame." TDG 339. Nothing but the truth can set us free, nothing but the truth can empower us to - Go, and sin no more.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/20/04 11:46 PM
Mike Lowe posted the following EGW quote in another topic that is also appropriate in this topic:
quote:
Testimony to the Church, page 27, paragraph 1
The true followers of Christ will not choose intimate friendship with those whose characters have serious defects, and whose example as a whole it would not be safe to follow, while it is their privilege to associate with persons who observe a conscientious regard to their duties in their business, and the duties of religion. Those who lack principle and devotion generally have a more positive influence to mold the minds of their intimate friends than those have whose characters seem well balanced to control and influence the defective in character, and those lacking spirituality and devotion.
It seems like EGW used the words true followers.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/21/04 12:23 AM
quote:
It is interesting to note that the KJV Bible uses the word sin (and its variations) 759 times, whereas the word love (and its variations) occurs only 471 times. Apparently sin is an important topic. Sin is the source of all human unrest and misery, and Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death to empower us to live without sinning. The importance of overcoming sin cannot be over stressed.
It is interesting to note that the KJV Bible uses the word "God" 4447 times, the word "Jesus" 983 times, the word "Christ" 555 times and the word "Lord" 7836 times. Apparently God, Jesus Christ and the Lord are important topics. Christ is the source of all true happiness. God gave Him to us in order to save us and restore us to His image.
By beholding we become changed. The importance of Christ cannot be overstressed.
"Christ crucified,--talk it, pray it, sing it, and it will break and win hearts." (CS 130)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/21/04 08:56 AM
RC 309
The longest chain is composed of separate links. If one of these links is faulty, the chain is worthless. Thus it is with character. A well-balanced character is formed by single acts well performed. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. He who enters heaven must have a character that is without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. Naught that defileth can ever enter there. In all the redeemed host not one defect will be seen. {RC 309.6}
1 SM 373, 374
The Lord requires no less of the soul now, than He required of Adam in Paradise before he fell-- perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement of God under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement He made in Paradise--harmony with His law, which is holy, and just, and good. The gospel does not weaken the claims of the law; it exalts the law and makes it honorable. Under the New Testament, no less is required than was required under the Old Testament. Let no one take up with the delusion so pleasant to the natural heart, that God will accept of sincerity, no matter what may be the faith, no matter how imperfect may be the life. God requires of His child perfect obedience. {1SM 373.1}
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/22/04 06:29 AM
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. (Rom. 1:16)
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. (1 Cor 2:2)
It is not the fear of punishment, or the hope of everlasting reward, that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him. They behold the Saviour's matchless love, revealed throughout His pilgrimage on earth, from the manger of Bethlehem to Calvary's cross, and the sight of Him attracts, it softens and subdues the soul. Love awakens in the heart of the beholders. They hear His voice, and they follow Him. (DA 480)
We must gather about the cross. Christ and Him crucified must be the theme of contemplation, of conversation, and of our most joyful emotion. We should have these special appointments for the purpose of keeping fresh in our thoughts everything which we receive from God, and of expressing our gratitude for His great love, and our willingness to trust everything to the hand that was nailed to the cross for us. We should learn here to talk the language of Canaan, to sing the songs of Zion. By the mystery and glory of the cross we can estimate the value of man, and then we shall see and feel the importance of working for our fellow men, that they may be exalted to the throne of God. (4T 462)
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/21/04 07:13 PM
Tom, do you see a conflict, a contradiction, between the quotes I posted and the ones you posted? If not, then please explain how they agree and compliment one another. Thank you. I perceive a cause and effect relationship between them.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/22/04 12:32 AM
"The conditions of eternal life, under grace, are just what they were in Eden--perfect righteousness, harmony with God, perfect conformity to the principles of His law. The standard of character presented in the Old Testament is the same that is presented in the New Testament. This standard is not one to which we cannot attain. In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace." MB 76
This quote gives both the requirement and the condition. The requirement is perfection, which is being like Christ, or, synonomously, being in perfect harmony with God's law. The condition is that we not iterpose a perverse will and thus frustrate God's grace.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/22/04 02:04 AM
Amen! But when? When is this condition a reality in the life of a born again believer? I'm not talking about in the legal sense (which is important too), but in the real sense. Most people seem to think it happens gradually, after years and years of sinning less and less.
SC 62, 63
The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized. {SC 62.1}
It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned. {SC 62.2}
More than this, Christ changes the heart. He abides in your heart by faith. You are to maintain this connection with Christ by faith and the continual surrender of your will to Him; and so long as you do this, He will work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. So you may say, "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20. So Jesus said to His disciples, "It is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." Matthew 10:20. Then with Christ working in you, you will manifest the same spirit and do the same good works -- works of righteousness, obedience. {SC 62.3}
Think about it.
Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned.
More than this . . .
. . . with Christ working in you, you will manifest the same spirit and do the same good works -- works of righteousness, obedience.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/22/04 06:12 AM
quote:
Amen! But when? When is this condition a reality in the life of a born again believer? I'm not talking about in the legal sense (which is important too), but in the real sense. Most people seem to think it happens gradually, after years and years of sinning less and less.
It's not a matter of sinning less and less but becoming more and more like Christ.
Since the wages of sin is death, Adam and Eve would have died had God not intervened. The entire human race would have perished. But God did intervene (“as soon as there was sin, there was a Savior”) by instituting the Plan of Salvation. Because of this intervention, the human race was saved. Christ in the gift of Himself to the human race gave it an existence out of Himself. God united the fallen human race with divinity and thus reconciled it with Himself. God treats everybody, not just those who believe in Him, but everybody, as though they had never sinned. He treats them as well as He treated His own Son. God does not condemn them. He does not count their sins against them.
Jesus in prayer to His Father said that knowing God is eternal life. He said He finished His work by glorifying God and magnifying His name. This is another way of saying that Jesus made God’s character known. He did this by healing others and proclaiming the Good News about God. God is not the harsh, arbitrary taskmaster Satan has made Him out to be. God would rather die than allow His children to. Jesus gave the gift of eternal life to the world by revealing God’s true character to it.
The revelation is that God in Christ reached out to rescue sinners while they were still in their sins. While hating sin, God loves the sinner. In the same prayer, Jesus said God loved us as God loved Him. This shows that God’s love is independent of our sinfulness. Knowing that God loves us as we are, speaks to our hearts that the doubts Satan snuck into our souls are false; God can be trusted.
We are saved by the revelation of God’s character, which is the same as saying we are saved by grace, since God’s grace is His goodness lavished upon its unworthy recipients. We become partakers of eternal life when we see and believe the picture painted by Jesus Christ. This experience transforms us, regenerates us. We are brought into harmony with God and His holy law. Rebellion is removed from our heart.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/22/04 08:21 AM
But if everybody is justified, as if they have never sinned, what is God waiting for? And what distinquishes the sinners from the saints? the lost from the saved?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/25/04 05:41 PM
God's graciously treating people as if they haven't sinned by virtue of the gift of Christ in their behalf does not change their character if they resist His grace. God is waiting for a people to reproduce His character. What distinguishes sinners from saints is their character. Same for lost and saved. The lost are rebels and choose to refuse heaven ("their exclusion is voluntary with themselves"). The saved admire God for who He is and choose to spend eternity with Him.
======
Remove quote of previous post. - Daryl
[ October 25, 2004, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/26/04 06:03 AM
Here's what makes sense to me. Jesus made salvation and justification available when He lived and died the perfect life and death and ascended to the heavenly sanctuary to mediate on behalf of those who accept Jesus as their personal Saviour. Only those who overcome sin and reproduce the character of Christ are justified and saved.
God is waiting for His church to experience the righteousness of Christ and to proclaim the 3AMs to a desperate and dying world. Only the truth can set us free. Any idea, therefore, that puts off crucifying any one of our defective traits of character in the future, instead of now and today, frustrates the grace of God and delays the return of Christ.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/26/04 05:56 AM
God does more than make salvation available. He has given it to everybody by giving Christ to everybody. It is by virtue of the gift of Christ that we live physically. "To the death of Christ, we owe even this earthly life." People are lost because they resist the grace which has already been given to them in Christ. When people see the truth about God, and respond to His love, then they are justified by faith.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/26/04 08:10 AM
In my mind, salvation involves freedom from sinning. It sounds like your definition of salvation includes probation. True, salvation wouldn't be possible without probation, but probation doesn't save us, we must choose Jesus, we must crucify our old man, we must be born again, we must abide in Christ - in order to experience salvation from sin and sinning. This is fundamental to Christianity.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/28/04 02:52 AM
Any idea that says exact obedience is not possible today, or not possible until some future date, is guilty of implicating God.
1 John
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1 MR 369
"If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword" (Isaiah 1:19-20). These words are true. Exact obedience is required, and those who say that it is not possible to live a perfect life throw upon God the imputation of injustice and untruth. {1MR 369.1}
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/28/04 04:51 AM
Salvation involves freedom from sin, as Jesus' name implies (which Matthew tells us, "He shall save the people from their sins). God gave salvation to the world by giving Christ to the world. Everybody is given Christ: "To the death of Christ, we owe even this earthly life." "Never one, saint or sinner, partakes of his daily bread, but he is nourished by the body and blood of Christ."
Since Christ is given to every person, it follows that salvation is given to every person. Thus if a person is lost at last, it will only be because they have refused the gift that was given to them.
God does far more than simply make salvation "available". This is an important point to understand because to misunderstand this point is to misrepresent God's character.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/28/04 08:13 AM
Tom, just because we move and breathe and have our being, on account of Jesus, does not mean we are saved. The Bible makes a distinction between temporal and eternal life.
Mark
16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Acts
2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
1 Peter
4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1 John
5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/29/04 12:33 AM
Being saved has two meaning. One meaning is that Christ saved the world by the Plan of Salvation. In so doing, He became the Savior of the World. Christ is called the Savior of the World several times, and the Spirit of Prophesy says several times that "Christ saved the world." So there is a sense in which all have been saved. This is dealing with justification by faith. This is what EGW is talking about when she says "to the death of Christ we owe even our earthly life" and "Christ by His wonderful work in giving His life restored the entire race of men to favor with God." (beautiful though, isn't it?)
The second sense of being saved is the way you are using which has to do with justification by faith. Only those who exercise faith will be justified by faith and saved in this sense.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/29/04 07:09 AM
quote:
This is dealing with justification by faith.
Did you mean to say - This is not dealing with justification by faith.
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/30/04 08:00 AM
Yes. The first sense is not justification by faith, but "justification of life" to use the language of Romans 5:18.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/30/04 10:07 AM
Naturally eternal life is more important than temporal life, because if we embrace Jesus eternal life begins now, which means we are justified and sanctified (set apart to live in harmony with the law of God).
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 10/31/04 05:20 AM
Certainly eternal life is more important than temporal life. The point I'm making is that even our temporal life is a gift of infinite value.
"If we embrace Jesus eternal life begins now, which means we are justified and sanctified (set apart to live in harmony with the law of God)."
I agree completely with this. To know God is eternal life. We begin this path when we are born again, and have the wondrous opportunity to grow in our knowledge of God throughout eternity, starting now.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 11/04/04 04:37 PM
Mike.
It is the first time I opened this topic, and reading your comment above makes me want to comment on yours even I have no time yet reading all of this topic.
You said: “Tom, just because we move and breathe and have our being, on account of Jesus, does not mean we are saved. The Bible makes a distinction between temporal and eternal life.”
Unquote.
I have a different idea about salvation. I believe that God had saved us already from the death through Christ redemption, this mean eternal life is in our hands. The reason we die again is because we live in sin and died in sin, where the wages of sin is death, so, we must die again the second death.
In His love
James S.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 11/04/04 06:55 PM
James, how do you explain this passage:
1 John
3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.
3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
When do we pass from death unto life? At what point do we have eternal life abiding in us? When are we considered a Christian in eyes of God?
Posted By: Tom
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 11/04/04 08:21 PM
Although I'm not James, I'll respond.
We pass from death to life when we believe in Christ. Eternal life is given to us in Christ, who is not far away that we need to ascend to heaven, nor descend into the deep, but near.
The blessing has come upon all men; for "as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Rom.5:18. God, who is "no respecter of persons," "hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ." Eph.1:3. It is ours to keep. If any one has not this blessing, it is because he has not recognized the gift, or has deliberately thrown it away.
Posted By: James Saptenno
Re: What Are The True Fundamentals of Following Christ In Order To Be Called Christians? - 11/07/04 08:29 AM
Mike.
Tom has responded to your comment, I too will comment.
I read 1 John 3:14,15 as follows:
John understood and knew that he had been saved by Christ redemption, not only that, he knew that those who had the love of Christ in their hearts are fit for heaven and eternal life, those who hadn’t remain in death, for they will get the wages of sin – death, a wage for their own sin, which will happen after Christ awaken them unto life from their graves.
The love of Christ is the love to our brethren, having this, we belong to Christ.
Having not, we belong to Satan, for we love our self more.
In His love
James S.